Masonic infiltration of the Vatican： the evidence
Summary
The church today is witnessing something that is unbelievable. We are having known heretics appointed not only as bishops but as cardinals. We re having the most insane things we ve ever seen when betrayers of life, family, faith, and culture were promoted previously from priest to bishop, bishop to cardinal, and then finally found out after decades of destruction in the church that they not only were destroying the church in terms of heterodoxy, but were actually sexually abusing as well. What in the world is going on?
Transcript
00:00:00.000
The church today is witnessing something that really is unbelievable. We're having known
00:00:05.420
heretics appointed not only as bishops but as cardinals. We're having the most insane things
00:00:10.840
we've watched when betrayers of life, family, faith, and culture were promoted previously from
00:00:19.420
priest to bishop, bishop to cardinal, and then finally found out after decades of destruction
00:00:25.560
in the church that they not only were destroying the church in terms of heterodoxy, they were
00:00:29.900
actually sexually abusing as well, and then finally kicked out only after that becomes
00:00:34.600
public. What in the world is going on? We've heard for a long time about Freemasonry in
00:00:39.780
the church, seen the book Infiltration by Dr. Taylor Marshall, but you know, it's always
00:00:45.860
been difficult to pin down. Where is the evidence for that? Well, we've got something today that
00:00:52.780
you're going to find incredible because we've actually got some evidence. There was a cardinal
00:00:59.440
who was tasked by Pope Paul VI to look into these very strange things going on in the
00:01:07.000
church, and he came back with an investigation. His name was Cardinal Gagnon. And interestingly,
00:01:13.360
the pro-life movement in Canada has a great connection to Cardinal Gagnon because he was
00:01:17.360
the one that called on the pro-life movement on behalf of Pope John Paul II at the time to
00:01:23.460
go and fight for life at the UN. So with that background knowledge of Cardinal Gagnon, a great
00:01:30.400
friend to the pro-life movement in Canada, we're going to speak with someone who was a close friend
00:01:36.040
of his for all of his life. His name is Father Charles Murr, who just issued a book called Murder
00:01:43.320
in the 33rd Degree. Stay tuned. This is the John Henry Weston Show.
00:02:05.400
Just before we begin, let me tell you that this is LifeSite's 25th anniversary year. On August 17th,
00:02:11.380
we are having an anniversary event in Naples, Florida. I hope you can join us there. It's going
00:02:17.160
to be awesome. Naples, Florida, go to gala25.lifesitenews.com for more information.
00:02:24.340
Father Charles Murr, great honor to be with you.
00:02:27.740
My honor, sir. My honor and privilege. I mean that sincerely.
00:02:31.960
Father, if you wouldn't mind launching us off with the sign of the cross, that would be awesome.
00:02:35.340
In the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost.
00:02:40.220
Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with thee. Blessed art thou amongst women. Blessed is the
00:02:44.720
fruit of thy womb, Jesus. Holy Mary, Mother of God. Pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our
00:02:50.560
death. Amen. In the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. Amen.
00:02:55.340
Amen. So, Father, it's so fascinating to speak with you. If you can tell us a little bit about
00:03:02.540
yourself to start with. I'll try to be brief. There's so much to tell.
00:03:09.520
I met, I was in Rome as a lay student. I went to study philosophy, and I was there from 1971
00:03:16.220
till 1979, almost to 1980. And it was there that I met Cardinal Gagnon, again, as a lay student,
00:03:24.480
myself. He was Bishop Gagnon at that time. He had just been named rector of the Pontifical
00:03:30.840
Canadian College in Rome. And I went on to finish my studies and was called to priesthood
00:03:40.080
in a rather extraordinary way. By the book, and you'll find out. It's no, I'm not going
00:03:47.160
to take up your time right now, but it was an extraordinary way that I was called to priesthood.
00:03:51.120
And I was ordained to priest. I was ordained by Cardinal Felice and Cardinal Gagnon. And Cardinal Gagnon
00:03:58.400
preached the homily at my ordination and first mass in multiple languages for everyone attending.
00:04:06.440
And that's it. Gagnon and I remained friends for years, until his death. And I absolutely loved
00:04:19.280
this man. He was one of the genuinely good, good people that God has blessed me to meet in life.
00:04:27.360
You know, in the church, we have everything, right? We have saints and we have sinners. We understand
00:04:33.520
that. This man was one of the saints, truly one of the saints. He was, and a great, delicious
00:04:42.240
sense of humor, a wonderful sense of humor and love to sing and to be with people. And so encouraging,
00:04:53.440
encouraging. I've seen him in a lot of difficult situations and he was always magnificent. I feel
00:04:59.280
great, greatly honored, honored to have had him as my friend. He's still my friend. I still talk to him.
00:05:05.320
Now, Father, you have, oh yeah, you've talked to him posthumously though, as in speaking with him in
00:05:11.960
the afterlife. That's great through prayer, of course. Well, Father, just one other little bit
00:05:18.060
about you, if I may, because people need to understand you're not one of those lofty priests
00:05:23.200
who, I guess in some people's imagination, as in a conservative high hill somewhere, never having
00:05:29.480
messed your hands with the dirty faithful or whatever. You've helped to found orphanages.
00:05:36.120
You've helped even to rescue priests. Is that not true? A little bit. Yep. Okay. You know,
00:05:43.800
special times require special means. We're in very strange times. If you would have ever told me
00:05:55.080
that at the beginning of my priesthood that I would be in a position to be looking to help other
00:06:00.980
priests who are in dire situations because of their bishops or this, that, and the other thing,
00:06:07.040
I simply would have dismissed that completely. No, I'm like Pius X. One of the great descriptions
00:06:17.120
of Pius X that I love so much is one of his biographers that I read said, he realized that he was
00:06:25.000
a farmer when he was, when he was elected and he realized that he needed somebody very intelligent
00:06:31.540
and shrewd to help him, who was Cardinal Ralph Medelval. He said, because Pius X still had dirt
00:06:38.140
under his fingernails. I like that. Yes, we all need some dirt under our fingernails. And I've got plenty.
00:06:45.780
I've had a lot of life experiences, some incredibly difficult and challenging, others magnificently
00:06:54.200
sublime. Everything. There was everything in life. It's good. So Father, one of the things that
00:07:01.400
has gone on in the church is that a lot of people have talked about, because they're trying to make
00:07:05.720
sense now of what's gone on, what's gone on from really from the sixties, the sort of abrogation
00:07:12.820
almost of the mass that was for over a thousand years, 1,500 years, the mass of the ages, as they call
00:07:19.620
it. But then also it was the appointments of these very strange priests as bishops who became abusers,
00:07:28.940
who deformed the face of the church, who, but it's ongoing. We saw that led up with John Paul II,
00:07:36.340
or at least thought we did. And then we saw with Benedict sort of some reformation of the liturgy
00:07:42.180
back to some language that made more sense. But then came Francis. And now we're dealing with,
00:07:49.520
I think, had I been alive during the sixties, what would have gone on then? The appointment of
00:07:56.080
very strange bishops indeed. But now it's sort of like all out in the open. Back then, perhaps it was
00:08:02.600
somewhat more concealed. But just this week, we had the promotion to Cardinal of Bishop McElroy from San
00:08:12.680
Diego, who I think anybody who has been watching the scene in the United States knows him to be,
00:08:19.200
layman would say, even a heretic, a guy who was promoting LGBT and a staff stance on abortion.
00:08:25.860
So staff, in fact, he was talking about how they have to equate at the USCCB level. We're talking about
00:08:31.580
elections, poverty and abortion. So this guy's out there, way out there on the left. And yet he's
00:08:40.180
made cardinal. He's a suffragan bishop to Cardinal Gomez of LA, who isn't a paragon of conservatism,
00:08:49.600
but he's passed over so that this radical leftist can be appointed. So a lot of people throwing around
00:08:56.900
the idea of, gee, is Freemasonry inside the church. What is Freemasonry? Is it in the church?
00:09:09.180
If you could summarize that, that would be great.
00:09:11.500
I'll tell you this. I'll tell you this. Freemasonry and the plots, the idea of plottings
00:09:22.820
and a complot, we call it in Spanish and Italian. I couldn't buy any of that when I was a young man.
00:09:32.520
I thought this was nonsense. And I said so. I said so when I was approached many times by serious
00:09:39.980
people on the subject matter of the Freemasons and their horrible disdain, their hatred of the
00:09:49.780
Catholic Church and of Catholic principles. Yes, I know they didn't like Catholic principles and
00:09:55.300
everything else, but they were nice people. We went as children to the Shrine Circus,
00:10:00.280
and the Shriners did a lot of good work with children and everything else.
00:10:04.260
And I'm looking at this through an American perspective.
00:10:10.600
This is not what we're talking about. We're not talking about funny little men with fezzes
00:10:16.540
running around a little in clown cars. This is not it. This is Freemasonry, as it was founded in
00:10:23.740
Europe in, my goodness, what was it, 1717? And it was founded to attack and destroy Catholicism.
00:10:37.080
It's one of its principal reasons. And European Freemasonry is not like American Freemasonry.
00:10:45.960
It's just not. It's a different animal. At any rate, in 1974, two cardinals of the Catholic Church,
00:11:01.160
great men, outstanding men, Cardinal Staffa, Dino Staffa, and Cardinal Silvio Oddi.
00:11:12.640
I knew Oddi rather well, a great man. This man was like a locomotive. There was no stopping him,
00:11:23.180
right? These two men, and Cardinal Staffa, I should just say this, Cardinal Staffa was head of the
00:11:29.100
Supreme Court of the Catholic Church. That was the position that Cardinal Burke had until Papa
00:11:35.280
Bergoglio decided that that wasn't pleasing to him. Anyway, this man, as head of the Supreme Court of
00:11:47.120
the Catholic Church, was in a supreme position to understand things. He and Oddi, it was given to him
00:11:54.960
documents against a man in the Roman Curia, a very powerful man in the Roman Curia, who was
00:12:03.200
Hannibal Buñini, or as Monsignor Schuller, my pastor in St. Paul, Minnesota, Richard Schuller,
00:12:13.420
God rest him, used to say Bugnini. You would call him Bugnini. Anyway, Buñini. And then the evidence
00:12:21.540
was quite apparent, evident, that he was a member of the Freemasonry, of Italian Freemasonry.
00:12:33.360
Just to give your listeners a little bit of an idea, it was Freemasonry that brought down the
00:12:40.140
Papal States. It was Freemasonry that brought about the unification of Italy. It didn't matter
00:12:47.940
who they killed, what they did to get this done. Freemasonry that had a great role, played a great
00:12:54.320
role in the French Revolution. Freemasonry that played a great role also in the American Revolution.
00:13:00.780
I mean, this is true. There was evidence of this bishop belonging to being a member of the Freemasons.
00:13:14.360
But why is that important? It's, well, first of all, as I say, it's not like belonging to the Lions Club
00:13:20.600
or the Elks, right? This man was in charge of Catholic liturgy.
00:13:30.320
Well, there was a promise by the Freemasons, European Freemasons, above all, French and Italian,
00:13:37.640
to destroy the Catholic Church. How do you destroy the Catholic Church? That's kind of a big undertaking,
00:13:43.640
huh? To destroy the Catholic Church? I remember, I'm reminded of a Jesuit priest who was a dear friend
00:13:53.920
of mine, a spiritual, my spiritual director for years, Father Rahim, Lebanese-Mexican. He and three,
00:14:02.100
two other Jesuits during the Mexican persecution, right after the persecution, were on a train going to
00:14:08.420
Mexico City. And into the car came three or four military men and sat right in front of them. And
00:14:18.040
they realized that these were priests. They were saying grievery. They couldn't wear a Roman collar
00:14:22.860
because Freemasonic law forbade it in Mexico. It was illegal to wear a Roman collar or any habit or
00:14:29.540
any distinction, any distinctive. Anyway, they saw these priests there. And one of the lieutenants
00:14:37.540
said to his men, he said, to egg them on, he said, have we been given just two or three more years?
00:14:44.840
We could have finished all of the Catholic superstition in this country. And of course,
00:14:50.620
they're egging on these, they're bothering these three priests. Father Rahim finally started laughing,
00:14:59.220
giggling. And of course, these people are humorless. They have no humor. This irritated him very much.
00:15:06.380
He said, you priest, what are you laughing at? He said, he said, he closed his briefings. He said,
00:15:11.340
you would have destroyed the church, the Catholic church in two more years of civil war. He said,
00:15:17.780
you from outside would have done that. He said, we from inside haven't been able to do that in 2000.
00:15:23.120
In 2000 years, you just needed two more to do it. All right. But this, the Freemasons took this on
00:15:30.640
as a pledge to destroy the Catholic Church. They started with having members of the Roman Curia.
00:15:39.700
They infiltrated the church through the Curia, through the Roman Curia. And they had a member
00:15:43.860
whose name was Pugnini. This was brought to the attention of the Supreme Magistrate of the Catholic
00:15:51.640
Church's Supreme Court. He had it investigated by Interpol, by many different sources before he dared
00:16:01.000
take this to the Pope. He saw the veracity to it and brought it to Pope Paul VI. He did this in 1975.
00:16:11.060
Pope Paul VI, just a couple of years before this, on his own, came to the conclusion that something was
00:16:21.960
wrong with the church. There was something wrong with the direction that the church was taken.
00:16:29.080
And John Henry, let me just say this. Pope Paul VI, I believe, was a sincere man. I think he was a
00:16:36.460
sincere man. He really felt that the church needed change. And we all believe that the church needed
00:16:43.820
change. God knows the church needs change today. There's nobody who doubts that. So he was open to
00:16:51.200
all of this until he started seeing the direction that it was taking, that he had lost control of it
00:16:58.380
also. He had lost control of that direction. Cardinal Staffa and Cardinal Odi brought the
00:17:06.220
documents to Paul VI himself. And to say that the Pope was concerned, was to put it mildly.
00:17:18.540
He asked Cardinal, he asked his secretary of state, undersecretary of state, Benelli,
00:17:25.820
to do an investigation. Again, another investigation. Benelli did the investigation,
00:17:36.220
The Pope then, you know how things go in Rome. You're promoted to be eliminated.
00:17:43.420
You're eliminated through promotion, right? Kicked upstairs, as they say. Well, they made
00:17:49.420
Bunini annuncio to Iran. I mean, Iran is like, I mean, I'm not belittling Iran, but Iran's Catholics
00:18:02.620
numbered about 20,000 to 30,000 in the entire country, like a parish, where he could do very
00:18:10.220
little. He couldn't speak the language. He was not a diplomat, so he was just put there.
00:18:16.540
Also, there's another reason for doing this. God knows what all he had on different members of the
00:18:23.820
Curia, Bunini, as far as blackmail and everything else. So you don't want to play hardball with those
00:18:32.140
people, sending them to Iran. Now, this is totally fascinating because who
00:18:41.420
Bunini was. If you could explain for our listeners, who is Bunini, and why is it so significant that he's
00:18:50.700
ID'd as a Freemason? Bunini was in charge, just basic, I'm going to simplify this, especially for
00:18:58.940
your audience who are probably already tired of listening to my voice. So I'll make it quick.
00:19:05.980
Bunini was in charge of the liturgy, of the liturgical reform. And what he was doing was,
00:19:12.700
when people say that our present Catholic mass seems more like a Protestant service,
00:19:19.660
yes, that was Bunini, and he was very proud of that. He was very proud of that. That would not have
00:19:25.020
been an insult to him whatsoever. That's what he wanted. Bunini did all sorts of things that,
00:19:33.100
anything that he could do to change the liturgy, the Catholic mass, into a Protestant service,
00:19:40.300
into a meal, not a sacrifice. Hated the word sacrifice. Get rid of the word sacrifice.
00:19:46.140
Eliminate the offertory. Get all of that idea of associating the mass with the crucifixion and
00:19:54.540
the sacrifice on Calvary. Get rid of that. It's just a big, fun meal. This is what the mass is. And
00:20:02.220
it's supposed to unite us all, Protestants, Jews. Well, this is what we ended up with.
00:20:09.020
Let me just put it this way. This was the man who was principally responsible for destroying
00:20:16.620
the liturgical sense of the church as being organic. It stopped being organic. He started imposing
00:20:25.340
ideologies and ideas into the liturgy and the way we pray and the way we believe.
00:20:31.100
And he knew what he was doing. All of those changes were done to secularize, to secularize,
00:20:37.020
to secularize, to make less religious, less religious, to make you less Catholic and me
00:20:43.020
less Catholic and more like everybody else. Well, to great degree, he was successful.
00:20:49.660
I think he was successful. Unfortunately, I don't think it's wonderful. I think it's horrid,
00:20:55.020
but he was successful. Bonini was ousted by Pope John XXIII. John XXIII knew something around what was wrong
00:21:09.820
about with him because he not only took him out of the commission for the liturgy. This is in 1963,
00:21:17.420
62 yet. John died in 63, so it's in 1960. But he forbade him to step foot into the Lateran University
00:21:26.460
where he was teaching. He called the rector of the Lateran University, the Pope did,
00:21:32.620
to tell him that Bonini was not to step foot in the university. Out.
00:21:37.020
All of a sudden, Paul VI is elected Pope and Bonini's back in. There's a way of presenting yourself in
00:21:47.100
Rome as a martyr of the last regime. They didn't understand me. They were unfair to me. This, that,
00:21:54.780
and the other. Come, come, come back. We'll accommodate you. We had those meetings.
00:21:59.420
Yes, you know. Anyway, he got back in and he started all of this, this, I would call it the
00:22:06.860
destruction of the Catholic liturgy. And I think a lot of people are seeing that today. Ironically,
00:22:12.380
they're seeing it today more clearly than they ever saw it before. 50 years later, it's clearer today
00:22:19.820
than it was 50 years ago. So that's kind of an amazing thing. But I remember historians saying that
00:22:25.580
when I was studying history, they were saying, we know more today about the ancient Egyptians than
00:22:31.100
they knew about themselves. We know more today about this than that, than the people living in
00:22:36.300
those times. We do. And we know more today about what was going on 50 years ago than 50 years ago.
00:22:42.220
Yeah. It's an incredible thing just as a person who didn't live through it to look back and see it and
00:22:49.100
realize, sheesh, I know where I would have been if I was back there. But, but you don't because you're
00:22:56.220
not actually living in it. So, but these are very strange things. But is it only one bishop who,
00:23:05.500
in the Vatican, who was part of the Freemasons, sort of officially, the Italian form of the Freemasons?
00:23:12.540
Or were there more that he worked with on the inside?
00:23:14.620
There were more. There were more. Undoubtedly, there were more. Let me just, let me just say
00:23:23.580
this before we go any further. In 1975, when Pope Paul woke up to this idea that there was something
00:23:34.140
very wrong, something very much wrong with the church was going in the wrong direction. And he did
00:23:40.220
this first step to get rid of Bunini. People who were not around at that time don't understand how
00:23:47.900
crucial this was, the liturgy and what was happening to the liturgy. It was amazing. It was very important.
00:23:58.140
When Pope Paul took care of that problem, and he took care of that problem through Giovanni Benelli,
00:24:03.020
his undersecretary of state, because Benelli was on to all of this more than anybody knew,
00:24:07.980
he knew what was going on. When this happened, the Pope said, there's something very wrong.
00:24:17.180
And Benelli, who I knew, not extremely well, but I knew him. I had dinner with him and was in his
00:24:27.020
company a couple of times, a few times. Benelli suggested an investigation, a thorough investigation
00:24:35.660
of the Roman Curia. And Pope Paul VI said, yes. Who? Who do we have to do an investigation of the
00:24:48.460
Roman Curia? These are the central offices of the church. And believe me, these are the people who
00:24:55.260
investigate. These are not the people who are investigated, right? So this went over like a lead
00:25:01.340
balloon, the announcement. This did not fly at all. People were very upset by it,
00:25:07.740
because it was saying to them that the Pope doesn't have confidence in us, which he didn't,
00:25:12.540
which is the reason he called them for the investigation. And Benelli said, I know one man
00:25:18.700
who is above reproach. He's a canon lawyer, a moralist, a theologian, a humble man,
00:25:26.460
and he's absolutely honest. The Pope said, my God, we have somebody like that?
00:25:36.940
No, he didn't say that. That's me. Anyway, it was Edward Gagnon. And so Gagnon was asked by Benelli
00:25:47.020
to head this investigation. He was called in by the Pope. The Pope bestowed this charge
00:25:51.980
or in charge him with with this study. And he did that. He did that full time for three years,
00:26:05.340
At great personal cost to him. He had life, he had threats against his life.
00:26:15.180
of people didn't like him investigating them. And people found out. This was a time, this was a time
00:26:24.540
when all good men who were in the Vatican Curia felt, finally, they're able to talk. Finally,
00:26:33.500
they're able to say, to say what, what they've been seeing going on for years, finally. Well, they were,
00:26:39.420
and they did. And their superiors knew this. Their superiors knew this. And the superiors,
00:26:45.660
some of those, some of those men who had caused to be very nervous, were nervous. They were very
00:26:51.420
nervous and very upset, very unhappy with the whole thing. And death threats were made against Gagnon.
00:26:59.740
He was told not to report this, not to report that. His room, his bedroom was ransacked. His office was
00:27:08.620
ransacked, broken into, ransacked. As a matter of fact, in the report, the Gagnon report was stolen
00:27:16.060
from the safe of the congregation from the clergy in the Vatican, stolen from that. The safe was broken
00:27:24.300
into to steal the report. So there was a lot going on. At this point, Gagnon moved into a residence with
00:27:32.620
Monsignor Mario Marini, who was a dear friend of his, and with me. So the three of us were
00:27:38.380
together in a safe spot. And I will not get into why it was safe. You know why it was safe,
00:27:44.540
because of Monsignor Cappucci living down the hall. But believe me, there was not a safer place in the
00:27:50.300
world to be living than with us. We had three bands of military people outside protecting Monsignor Cappucci
00:27:58.940
and watching him and everything else. So it worked out well. Cardinal Gagnon worked for three years
00:28:05.660
on this investigation. There was, there was a, there was a, a, a joke in, in, in Rome. It was common
00:28:12.860
around the Curry. They said that Gagnon knew more than the Holy Ghost. He knew what was going on very,
00:28:19.100
very well. And Gagnon was gradually getting angrier and angrier and angrier. I, I, I saw it. I saw it.
00:28:28.780
The more, the more, the more that came out, the filth. That's the word he used to, the filth.
00:28:36.940
Again, just for your viewers' sake and for yours, don't forget, as I, as I used to tell the,
00:28:45.500
the Carmelite sisters, I gave many retreats to Carmelite nuns. And I said, in every Carmelite
00:28:51.100
convent, there are saints and there are saint makers, right? You got to remember, and, and each
00:29:01.740
of us have a little, has a little bit of each, of each in us, right? Well, in the Vatican also,
00:29:07.500
there were scoundrels. There still are, and very much so. There are also saints. Believe me,
00:29:14.700
there are saints. There are men who are priests and monsignors and bishops who are absolutely dedicated
00:29:20.540
to doing what is right and can't. Their hands are tied. And they're under obedience to continue.
00:29:27.340
And it's very frustrating for a lot of these people, but there are saints. There is good there
00:29:31.580
also, right? There's a tremendous battle between good and evil. Here's what happened too. During the
00:29:38.140
investigation, it was proven, again, proven with documentation. I'm not talking about he said,
00:29:45.180
she said, I said, you said. This was documented, all of this. And, and Archbishop Gagnon would not
00:29:53.100
have accepted anything on basis of rumor. He had no time for that. Everything was documented,
00:30:00.300
and anything that was documented had to be proven again, tested. But it came, it became very clear
00:30:07.820
that the head of the congregation for bishops, who was Cardinal Sebastian Baggio, B-A-G-G-I-O,
00:30:19.420
was also a Freemason. There was no question of it. No question of it. Now, why is that important?
00:30:27.180
Well, first of all, you've got Bunini, who's in charge of the liturgy, who's changing the entire
00:30:34.940
liturgy. By no accident, the liturgy is being changed along Freemasonic lines, philosophical lines.
00:30:47.900
You know, the brotherhood, fraternity, liberty, all of this, this is exactly what Freemasonry is.
00:30:55.580
That's the way our liturgy is going, through Bunini. Our bishops, on the other hand, are being named
00:31:03.980
by an, by a Freemason. Let me, let me, let me just stop for a moment, and let me say that again.
00:31:11.180
Our bishops, from 1972 until 1984, were being named worldwide by a Freemason.
00:31:19.660
That's incredible. And that will actually give us the understanding of why we had
00:31:28.220
bishops like McCarrick, like Mahoney, in the United States, and all over the world. We've had
00:31:35.340
this kind of insanity for a long time. What were those dates again?
00:31:38.700
1972. He was appointed to the Congregation for Bishops in 1972 and resigned, finally, finally.
00:31:47.260
That's another story, in 1984. Cardinal Gagnon. The book is interesting, and it's interesting
00:31:56.780
not because I want to sell books, all right? And it's just interesting because I wanted to get
00:32:02.940
something out, something established before I die, before I go to God, before I see Gagnon again and
00:32:09.900
all of the other saints, right? I want to see Gagnon's face like, yeah, you did well, you did well.
00:32:16.220
These things have to be known. They have to be known. When you have somebody like this creating
00:32:24.060
the world's bishops, are you surprised? Are you surprised that we are where we are? Are you
00:32:32.220
surprised? How can you be surprised? It makes total sense. And also something else happened that shouldn't
00:32:39.020
be discounted. Do you remember that in 19, I believe it was 66, Pope Paul called for the resignation of
00:32:46.540
all bishops over the age of 75. Well, all of a sudden there's this slew, this huge body of remaking
00:32:57.420
bishops. The man in charge was Cardinal Baggio, right? And he made sure that these people were positioned
00:33:06.540
correctly. He also made sure that bishops who would become archbishops in places who would then become
00:33:18.540
Cardinals were of his liking. Very much so, because they would be the next voters in the next conclave.
00:33:27.980
Father, I have to ask you something that's very strange. I know that you're not talking much about
00:33:34.780
Pope Paul VI himself, because in a lot of ways, he seems like a precursor to a Pope Francis.
00:33:47.740
He was responsible for the Second Vatican Council to a large extent anyway. He was responsible for
00:33:55.180
a lot of what went on under him. Yes, it might have been because of these other folks who were doing it,
00:34:00.780
but he still had to give it his stamp of approval. In fact, and he's largely known today, people remember
00:34:09.740
him fancifully for Humanae Vitae, which was great, I mean, in that it upheld the Church's teaching.
00:34:14.940
But Pope Paul VI was the very one who, and this is particularly why you might say he's like Pope Francis,
00:34:25.900
he's like Pope Francis. When the priests rejected Humanae Vitae, and famously in Washington, we had this case
00:34:37.340
where the Cardinal, his name escapes me right now, Boyle. Boyle. Boyle corrected, properly so, his priests for
00:34:47.740
publicly going against the Pope's encyclical on teaching contraception. And then the Pope,
00:34:56.300
I think, personally intervened with Cardinal Boyle to force him to publicly change his stance and
00:35:04.220
basically allow those priests to do, I don't know what, to not be suspended and do whatever they wanted.
00:35:09.500
You're hitting it right on target. You're right on target. And that's why I use that example, that
00:35:15.900
particular one, to pinpoint the beginning of the end. If you want to start, if you want to find out
00:35:23.420
where it really began was exactly at that point. There were six priests, if I'm not mistaken, I may be
00:35:30.540
off on my numbers. I'm getting old. I told you it's one of the reasons I wrote a book, right? Anyway,
00:35:36.220
there were six priests who were protesting Humanae Vitae, if you will, before Humanae Vitae was published.
00:35:45.660
Imagine the audacity, protesting it. The Cardinal of Washington DC suspended the six priests.
00:35:57.020
They could no longer say public mass. They could no longer hear confessions.
00:36:00.380
This is unbelievable, but this is what happened. And this, I think, describes the psychology of
00:36:09.820
Montini, the psychology of Paul VI very well. When the Pope found out about it, he picked up the phone
00:36:18.060
and called the Cardinal of Washington and asked him, as a personal favor to the Holy Father,
00:36:25.900
to reinstate those priests and, if you will, to apologize to them for this misunderstanding.
00:36:35.820
That was it. It was finished. That was it. It was finished. The floodgates were open. That was it.
00:36:41.660
Again, I think Paul VI, I think he really believed that everything could be done
00:36:52.780
with charity and with love and with patience. Well, no, it can't be. Not when you're dealing
00:36:58.700
with people who are bad people. Let me just put it that way. These are not good people.
00:37:05.260
You're not, what was the great line of Al Capone? He said, you can get more done with a nice,
00:37:12.060
with a kind word and a gun than you can with a kind word alone. Yep. Anyway, a little bit of
00:37:18.780
discipline, a little bit of force behind what you were saying. And Paul didn't have that.
00:37:23.740
I think he was authentically worried about offending people. Even when you get to the case of Lefebvre,
00:37:29.740
of Bishop Lefebvre, he waited, he almost waited for, there was another priest, I can't remember his
00:37:36.620
name. He's not important to me anyway. It was a Benedictine, the abbot of San Pablo,
00:37:43.260
Fort Elemura, the abbot of St. Paul outside the wall, had made some insane
00:37:50.700
declarations of something. So he suspended Lefebvre as he suspended the guy on the left,
00:38:02.620
the right and the left. He had to have these two to balance.
00:38:09.660
In a word, and I say it with all respect, and I don't doubt that Paul VI is in heaven. I don't doubt
00:38:17.180
that at all. I do not approve of the way he was made a saint, and the reasons for which he was made
00:38:26.780
a saint, which didn't have a lot to do with sanctity, I don't think. It had to do with the
00:38:31.740
political reasons for the present pontificate. However, if I would define him in just one word,
00:38:41.900
weak, weak, weak, weak when you needed a man who was very strong. He was very weak.
00:38:51.260
After Humanae Vitae, which we applaud because it's correct. It's correct. And one of the reasons
00:38:57.340
we know it's correct is because it's so hated. This is one of the reasons that I know that the
00:39:03.500
direction the pontificate is going today is not correct because it's so loved by the world.
00:39:08.860
The world will applaud you. The world will take you on as one of its own. They will kiss you,
00:39:13.340
love you, hug you, embrace you. That's not the way of Christ Jesus that I know. The world will hate
00:39:21.580
you. I promise it will hate you. It hated me before it hated you. It will hate you, right? Anyway,
00:39:27.820
get back to Montini. There was a tremendous weakness. Humanae Vitae that he wrote was his last encyclical.
00:39:35.340
All done. We're not going to do that again. And this was it. This was it. And it was a terrible
00:39:46.460
time. It was a terrible time for the church. It was a terrible time in church history. And at the
00:39:51.740
same time, you've got all of these new bishops being created all over the world who were liberals,
00:39:58.620
liberals who were liberal. If a conservative got through, believe me, it was by accident.
00:40:04.780
It was by accident. Or it was to show something. But the majority, the vast majority of them were
00:40:11.900
liberals who wanted more and more and more things to change. They were ready to throw the baby out with
00:40:19.100
the bathwater. It didn't matter. They wanted change. This is what happened.
00:40:25.740
This is very interesting. I mean, if we kind of fast forward to now, because we are having something
00:40:32.860
very similar right now. We have a situation where there's liberals, Marxists, whatever they are,
00:40:40.220
being pointed as cardinals, bishops all over the world. Not so much the bishops. We hear a lot about
00:40:45.900
the cardinals. You hear every once in a while about the bishops. But in terms of the cardinals,
00:40:50.540
we see this happening with McElroy, Archbishop Roach being made cardinal as well, who really has a
00:40:59.340
dislike for the Latin Mass, which is rather evident. In the time of Paul VI, you said there was Bajot.
00:41:07.980
Right now, there's Cardinal Houlette, who doesn't strike as one of the extreme leftists. We've already
00:41:12.940
heard though that Pope Francis is sort of skirting, you know, Houlette's suggestions. Do you have any
00:41:20.220
comment on that? Yeah, I know Cardinal Houlette superficially. He was taught by Gagnon. He was also
00:41:32.780
a very dear friend of Monsignor Marini's. I'm sure he's not going to be so happy having me announce that,
00:41:40.060
but he was. He's a good man with principles. There's no question of that. He's also a man who's
00:41:50.540
looking out. He'd like to have his head remain on his neck. So he's very careful what he says,
00:41:58.140
how he says it, but he's doing what can be done. What can be done? Nothing can be done.
00:42:03.260
Under a dictatorship, you get your head up too high above the crowd and watch what happens,
00:42:12.220
so it'll be lapped off. He's very careful. He's cautious, but he's a man of very good principles.
00:42:18.140
He really is a good man of principles. Under a normal pontificate, he would be magnificent.
00:42:23.900
He really would be. Very intelligent man, well-spoken. There are people like this. They're
00:42:29.660
still there. They're still there, which gives me certain hope. Also, what gives me certain hope is
00:42:36.140
this, John Henry, and I share this with you, and I share this with your viewers, and I mean this
00:42:40.620
sincerely. We are at a point in the church's history where I think it's sort of like the Gideon
00:42:51.740
situation. It's so bad that it's going to take divine intervention to get us out of this. I mean
00:43:01.660
that sincerely, divine intervention. Everything has been done, muddied, dirtied, sullied so much that
00:43:11.580
only an act of God is going to take care of it. Not human politics, not human anything, an act of God.
00:43:19.580
And I'm very pleased to be alive. I'm waiting to see that act of God. I'd love to see it.
00:43:24.940
I've got a front row, center seat. I'm waiting. I'm praying for it. You're praying for it. We're
00:43:30.780
all waiting for it. But when it happens, when it happens, it is going to be a colossal manifestation
00:43:37.900
of the will of God and of his love. And this is where we're headed right now. This is not going to
00:43:44.700
continue. This cannot continue. It cannot continue. We cannot have Marxism guiding the direction of the
00:43:51.660
church. It is anti-Catholic. It is anti-God. Look, all of the courses you can take... I've taken some
00:44:00.300
courses at the Gregorian University in Marxism. We had to study it in philosophy.
00:44:05.420
It must be atheistic. It requires atheism. Because there can be nothing, zero, nothing,
00:44:16.700
not even God higher than the state. Why do you need to study it any further than that to know that
00:44:22.060
there's something very wrong here? Now, if you're going to take that and say, I think this is a viable
00:44:27.420
vehicle to remedy the problems of the church and the world and the world's problems, Marxism. Well,
00:44:36.220
no, no, it is not. You know what the real remedy to the world's problems and the church's problems?
00:44:43.500
Jesus Christ. He's the remedy. Why are we looking elsewhere? Right? Anyway, listen,
00:45:01.180
Here's a book that I think you've got to read. All right? This is in Italian. It's in Italian,
00:45:05.820
Spanish, and it's in English. This is about Mother Pasqualina. All right? And that book about Mother
00:45:11.180
Pasqualina is called, in English, The Godmother. I'm just going to tell you this. The book is called
00:45:19.020
The Godmother, not because she's a mafiosa. Right? She was my godmother for my ordination, Mother
00:45:25.180
Pasqualina, in Rome. All right? She was my godmother, and she came to my ordination. She gifted me with
00:45:32.060
the Sistine Chapel Choir as an ordination gift for the first mass. A fantastic woman, and I loved her
00:45:39.900
greatly. Anyway, Mother Pasqualina, I went to go visit her one day, and this book is all stories of Mother
00:45:47.340
Pasqualina and the visits that we had, and her interpretation of different things. Very
00:45:52.060
interesting lady. She was 42 years Pius XII's personal secretary, and lived through a part of
00:45:58.780
history that was phenomenal. But she said, one time I went to go visit her, and she said,
00:46:03.260
she said, Don Carlo. She said, you know, I just had a visit from an Austrian couple, very dear people.
00:46:10.300
I've known them for years. And she said, they came in with this, and she pulled out from her habit sleeve
00:46:19.900
a pamphlet or a pamphlet or a flyer or something. And it was Pope Paul, according to this, had been
00:46:29.740
kidnapped and replaced by an imposter. The pope that was there was an imposter. They had a before and after
00:46:38.380
a picture, and it was ludicrous. And I looked at her, and I said, Mother Pasqualina, you don't believe
00:46:44.460
this. I mean, you don't believe something is... She said, absolutely not. Absolutely not. Of course,
00:46:50.860
she said, it's nonsense. And I said, well, what are you showing it to me for? What are you so surprised?
00:46:56.460
She said, I just want you to see how everyone is grasping for something to believe, to explain the
00:47:07.740
insanity of what's happening. They'll even go to the extreme that the pope was kidnapped and an
00:47:15.980
imposter put in his place. That makes more sense to these people than that the church can be in the
00:47:22.460
state that it's in, right? So all I'm saying to people, to your audience, which is a great audience,
00:47:30.540
you've got an outstanding Catholic audience, they are the hope of the future. You know that.
00:47:37.180
The future of the church and of the world. Yes, these are insane times. Don't look for the explanation
00:47:47.180
over here, over there. Remember when Christ said, and then on the final times they'll say,
00:47:52.220
look, he's over here, the Messiah. Look, he's over there. Look here. Don't look anywhere,
00:47:56.540
right? Don't be fooled. There is evil within the church. It's at the heart of the church. It's there.
00:48:05.420
It's looking to do more harm, more harm. Again, I'll end with this. Monsignor Marini,
00:48:14.620
who was to me like the fourth person of the Blessed Trinity. I love this man. He started
00:48:21.980
the first one named to Ecclesia Dei Commission, and he was in the Secretary of State, and he was
00:48:27.260
Benelli's right-hand man. Monsignor Marini and I were walking down the Lungo Tevere, you know,
00:48:33.420
the Lungo Tevere in Rome, and we walked past a group of trans, they were called at that time,
00:48:39.660
transvestites. I think that's already politically incorrect, transvestites, but that's what they were
00:48:45.740
called. A group, maybe four or five of them, men dressed in drag, and they saw when Monsignor Marini,
00:48:53.100
who was a priest, Monsignor, in a Roman collar passed by, they started making catcalls and insults.
00:48:59.420
And I turned to him, this is a man who I just, I absolutely admired, just tremendous,
00:49:05.900
6'3", this virile man from Ravenna. I said, I said, how can such a thing take place?
00:49:15.100
You ridiculing, screaming at a priest in the shadow of St. Peter's Basilica,
00:49:20.380
right across, this is incredible. And he started laughing. He said, that bothers you? That bothers
00:49:29.100
you? I said, well, yes, indeed. He said, he said, you take a good look at those four or five men.
00:49:36.380
Take a look at them. He turned around. He said, I'm telling you right now, those five men,
00:49:42.220
transvestites, who are lined up to be prostitutes, to be picked up by cars coming by,
00:49:49.180
have a better chance of heaven than many of the people I work with under that dome.
00:49:59.260
So there is evil. There is evil. And I said, but why would that be? And he said,
00:50:04.380
he said, you're a student of logic. He said, what do you, what do you mean? Why would it be?
00:50:09.340
Where the presence of God is most apparent, why wouldn't the devil be right next door,
00:50:15.260
pitching a tent? Where you build a cathedral, where a cathedral is being built, the devil pitches
00:50:20.620
his tent right across the street. And where the bicker of Christ on earth reigns, you can be sure
00:50:27.260
the devil is not far away, not far away at all. The difference is that popes that we've had in the
00:50:33.500
past knew this. And they let their eyes open to this. Recently, they don't know this.
00:50:44.460
Cardinal Gagnon, to end this, presented his investigation, the results of it, to three
00:50:49.740
different popes. I was with him, brought him there, took him back. When they refused to act,
00:50:57.820
when John Paul II refused to act, Gagnon resigned on the spot. I took him to the airport. He left Rome
00:51:06.460
forever. But before he left Rome, he said to John Paul II, he said, Holy Father, the Vatican Bank,
00:51:13.740
the Vatican Bank is about to be assaulted. A horrible scandal is brewing for the Vatican Bank
00:51:23.020
to undermine the finances of the entire Roman church. He paid no attention to it. He did not pay
00:51:34.780
attention to it. Now, for your viewers who doubt that there are Masonic plots going on,
00:51:41.660
all they have to do is look at the Vatican Bank scandal, which was an assault by P2,
00:51:54.940
pre-Masonic lodge against the Catholic church to destroy its finances completely and tumble it,
00:52:01.420
crash it. They were judged guilty in Italian courts, international courts, and I think two of
00:52:10.540
them are still in prison for free Masonic plot against the church. One was hung, hung himself,
00:52:19.180
or was hung under the Blackfriars Bridge in London. And this is incredible. Just look at that. That's
00:52:28.220
not my interpretation of a plot. That was a plot, and it was legally presented as one, and people are
00:52:33.900
still in jail suffering the consequences of paying the penalties for it. No, there is real evil. And to
00:52:40.860
think that there isn't real evil, if you don't see that there's real evil, you really shouldn't be a
00:52:45.420
Christian. There's something wrong with you. Sometimes in my poor upbringing and formation,
00:52:53.820
every once in a while, I found myself in different circumstances in life almost doubting the existence
00:53:02.300
of God. I say that honestly. Things were so bad and so hard, and they hit so hard, and betrayals and
00:53:10.860
terrible things. But I never doubted the existence of evil. Evil is apparent. You have to look for God.
00:53:21.420
You have to look a little bit for God. He's not cheap. God isn't a cheap love. He costs something.
00:53:27.580
You want to find him? It'll cost you something. When you find him, it's magnificent. It's magnificent.
00:53:33.660
But evil, if you can't see evil, there's something very wrong with your vision. And this is what we're
00:53:41.020
suffering from in the church today. This happened 50 years ago. The reason I'm bringing it up today is
00:53:47.900
because today we're suffering the real consequences of that. We also had John Paul II, a saint of a man,
00:53:55.260
there's no question about it, good man, well-intentioned, did not take care of business,
00:54:01.020
did not take care of home, didn't clean house. He had the opportunity to do so. He decided 104 trips
00:54:08.460
around the world to bring Christ to the masses was more important. Was it? I don't know. I don't know.
00:54:14.140
I don't know. Maybe it accomplished a lot that I can see. I'm sure it did. I hope it did. But he did
00:54:21.260
not take care of what he was called to take care of, and that was to take care of business.
00:54:25.820
Every time he took a new trip, there was applause in the Roman Curia. Yes, yes, he's out again. Go.
00:54:33.980
Nobody's been in charge for the longest time, for the longest time. And we're living the consequences
00:54:43.020
of it. And I think one last thing, I keep saying one last thing. I think I've said it now five times,
00:54:48.300
right? I'm sorry. But you know, you get me wound up, John Henry. Anyway, here's the thing. One last thing.
00:54:56.380
No, I'll leave it at that. I'll leave it at that. Let me be prudent and just not say that. I think
00:55:06.060
I think something spectacular is going to happen. God has not abandoned his church. He's not abandoned
00:55:13.740
his people. I will say it. I think I think that the reason that people that I find pleasure, not not
00:55:24.700
pleasure, haha, sardonically. Not that. But I find I find hope in the fact that these people are bothered
00:55:35.660
tremendously by the resurgency of the ancient mass. I find great hope in that. The more they're upset
00:55:47.180
about it, and screaming against it, and railing against it, and prohibiting, and screaming, and no,
00:55:55.500
my God, there is something to this. There is something to this. If they're bothered that much,
00:56:00.700
if they're bothered that much, it's like the Monsignor passing in front of the transvestites.
00:56:08.780
They couldn't remain quiet. They had to mock. They had to mock, right? The same thing I see happening
00:56:15.980
here. This is a good sign. This is a good sign that all of these people who are not necessarily great
00:56:22.540
and good people are upset by this. If a man is known by his friends, John Henry,
00:56:29.260
if you can know a man by his friends, doesn't it stand to reason that you can know him by his enemies?
00:56:37.180
Amazing, Father. Father, I want to thank you so much for being with us on the John Henry Wesson Show.
00:56:42.940
I really want you to come back because there's actually tons more to cover. I have way more
00:56:48.460
questions for you. First of all, are you going to come back on?
00:56:50.860
Oh, I'd love to. I'd love to. Excellent. Your tolerance level is remarkable.
00:56:58.060
Well, you know what? I know my audience is going to be totally fascinated. Murder in the 33rd Degree.
00:57:03.820
Folks, go out and get that book. It is eye opening. And that is exactly the education that we need
00:57:10.460
to know where we came from in the last little while in the church, why we're here. And I really do want to
00:57:17.900
get from you, Father, perhaps in the next show. But how do you think this is actually going to come
00:57:22.940
to a conclusion? Because it's unbelievable right now. But again, thank you. And you know what?
00:57:29.900
Can you close, Father, with giving us all a blessing?
00:57:31.820
Amen. God bless you. Thank you, John Henry. God bless your father. And God bless all of you.