The John-Henry Westen Show - Meet the Traditional Redemptorists who CALLED OUT the Synodal Church

00:00:00.000 The old nun who taught me, she used to say, if it's Catholic, you can kick it. 0.73

00:00:03.340 So we've given it a good kick to see what's this all about, you know.

00:00:09.660 Hello, my friends. Welcome to the John Henry Weston Show.

00:00:12.480 We've got something very interesting for you today.

00:00:15.220 You know, over the past, well, over 13 years now, we've had Catholics,

00:00:21.460 and not only Catholics in the laity, but Catholics in the hierarchy,

00:00:24.540 priests, and even religious orders, wondering what to do in our very, very confusing situation.

00:00:32.380 Just in October, right around October 16th, a Catholic order of priests and monks called

00:00:42.240 the Sons of the Most Holy Redeemer, they're a traditional congregation.

00:00:46.460 They decided to issue an open letter to the Catholic bishops, priests and religious and faithful.

00:00:51.680 And basically, what they did was they repudiated what they called the Synodal Church.

00:00:58.940 We're going to speak now with Fr. Michael Mary.

00:01:01.280 Fr. Michael Mary, thanks for joining us. God bless you.

00:01:03.700 God bless you.

00:01:04.380 Let's begin, as we always do, with the Son of the Cross.

00:01:06.660 Father, if you could lead us, please.

00:01:07.940 Amen.

00:01:11.520 Many people will not have heard of you.

00:01:13.480 I have an editor in Scotland, and so she's told me about you.

00:01:17.860 But if you could tell us a little bit about your community.

00:01:19.600 We started here in Scotland in 1999 when we bought this island.

00:01:24.240 But before that, previously, we'd lived in England and in France.

00:01:27.900 England first, and then later France, then here in Papastronzee. 0.72

00:01:31.900 Papastronzee is a small island in the Orkneys, and it's about a mile by a mile.

00:01:39.160 It's a little island we own it ourselves, and we come here by our own fishing boat across

00:01:43.900 to the neighbouring island, and there we catch a boat.

00:01:45.940 So we're about an hour and a half directly by sea north of mainland Orkney, and that's

00:01:52.860 about another couple of hours north of mainland Scotland.

00:01:57.140 So we're right up here in the North Sea.

00:02:00.060 We've got, in our congregation, we're about 30 members, and here in this monastery we're

00:02:06.160 about 17, and that's where we are.

00:02:11.420 We like to live a life that's recollected, according to St.

00:02:17.420 Alphonsus, who wanted us to be recollected in the home and apostles outside.

00:02:22.720 So it's a life here of prayer and silence and work.

00:02:27.560 Beautiful.

00:02:28.000 A lot of bad weather, you know, but you know about that in Canada, so we can't talk about

00:02:32.240 our weather.

00:02:32.800 So yeah, it's fine.

00:02:34.140 It's fine.

00:02:34.600 Very good.

00:02:35.180 And what is your external ministry?

00:02:38.980 External ministry would be preaching missions when we're invited.

00:02:43.000 These days, that's a lot rarer than you'd imagine.

00:02:46.440 And we have a chaplaincy, or we had a chaplaincy, in Christchurch in New Zealand, which has been

00:02:54.740 rather talked about recently.

00:02:56.980 And we also have a little foundation over in Montana in America.

00:03:02.200 Just another point on the history.

00:03:03.960 You were at one point associated with the SSPX, the Society of Pius X, and then after

00:03:12.480 Samorum Pontificum, the document from Pope Benedict, you became more mainstream, I guess you could

00:03:20.820 say.

00:03:21.520 Explain that for us, if you would.

00:03:22.820 I started as a Redemptorist when I was 17.

00:03:26.340 I was ordained in 1978.

00:03:27.720 And then I went to Econ in Switzerland in 1987.

00:03:34.480 And the following year, which was the year of the Consecrations of the Four Bishops, it

00:03:38.540 was planned that we'd make a community for this English-speaking world in the UK.

00:03:44.240 So we came here then.

00:03:46.480 We worked with the Society of St. Pius X preaching missions.

00:03:50.680 Very nice.

00:03:51.440 It was lovely work.

00:03:52.540 And we came here in 1999.

00:03:55.280 When Pope Benedict XVI put out his Modu Proprosum Pontificum, he said that we would be able to

00:04:01.800 live tradition in the Church.

00:04:05.060 And he said also that we shouldn't have a schism if we can avoid it.

00:04:11.040 Well, we didn't think we were in schism, that's for sure.

00:04:13.540 We've always never considered that.

00:04:15.500 We only ever wanted to be Catholic.

00:04:18.080 But the thought of being joined up with the Church and being able to live tradition in

00:04:21.880 the Church seemed too much to pass.

00:04:24.600 And we thought, well, the Pope wants it.

00:04:26.900 Clearly, we'll go for it.

00:04:29.860 So we did.

00:04:31.100 In 2008, we started the work of having what they call the reconciliation with Rome.

00:04:38.400 It was a very nice time.

00:04:41.840 We were able to prepare constitutions and get everything ready.

00:04:47.960 We met a little bit of obstacle from part of the hierarchy who weren't very happy with

00:04:52.740 us, what we were doing.

00:04:53.820 But that slowed us down for nearly five years.

00:04:56.300 But we persevered and it came to fruit in 2012.

00:05:02.720 So that was very nice.

00:05:04.420 It all changed really, I think, with the coming of Francis when everything started to close

00:05:12.740 down and it got more and more bleak as his time went on to the point where we thought, we've done it.

00:05:23.900 You know, we can't keep doing this.

00:05:25.460 We had, because he was closing things down, we had the Bishop in Christ which wanted to close us down, which was a pretty bad move on his part because, you know, we had gone there with an invitation in the end.

00:05:41.660 Not in the beginning.

00:05:42.300 In the beginning, we went out there as part of like SSPX under the umbrella of SSPX.

00:05:46.480 We were there for about a year and I think they wanted to flush us out.

00:05:49.860 They invited the SSP in, but the priest who came was actually a good friend and we got on very well.

00:05:55.480 And so in the end, the SSP said, well, you know, we haven't got room for two priests there.

00:05:59.760 So they didn't want to stay in New Zealand.

00:06:02.000 So we stayed in New Zealand.

00:06:03.760 And the Bishop at the time, gruff, lovely guy, straight as a die.

00:06:08.260 And he eventually, Bishop Barry Jones, God rest him, he gave us a canonical invitation to come into the diocese and start a house.

00:06:17.020 Well, that's the idea of a canonical invitation is that you're there until the Day of Judgment.

00:06:20.700 You've got a house now.

00:06:21.680 You've got somewhere where you can live.

00:06:23.680 So then we were living in Papastronzi. 0.70

00:06:25.440 Now we've got a house and we've got space in New Zealand, which is very good because I'm a New Zealander myself and I'm from the South Island.

00:06:31.880 And they needed the old mass there in the South Island, of course. 0.95

00:06:35.280 So then we had this canonical foundation.

00:06:40.460 And then Bishop Barry Jones also offered us the chaplaincy.

00:06:44.320 Well, that was good.

00:06:46.160 It brought in some incomers. 1.00

00:06:49.200 I think we've got half a priest's pay to be a chaplain.

00:06:53.480 So that was quite good.

00:06:54.480 We lived on half a priest's pay and anything else we could scrape together.

00:06:59.340 It was very good.

00:07:00.180 And lots of vocations, you know, lovely people coming forward.

00:07:03.660 We have never had a vocation pamphlet to really speak of.

00:07:08.560 We don't really do any of that.

00:07:10.000 It just happens and people want to join.

00:07:13.520 Of course, you can't have something good and not have enemies.

00:07:17.040 And I assume we must have had some people who were looking the wrong way at us, which is fine.

00:07:23.340 Then we had this famous canonical visitation, apostolic visitation, by an old bishop from Australia who was quite well known for closing down and having successful visitations.

00:07:37.160 So it was a successful visitation.

00:07:40.280 He never really asked us any questions at all concerning what they were talking about, that we had done illegal, illegal exorcisms.

00:07:48.820 You know, anything about exorcisms, you'd have to have something wrong with your head to want to do a formal exorcism without the authority of the authority of a bishop or someone.

00:07:58.200 So it was a lot of smoke, but no fire, as far as I know.

00:08:04.620 So there we go, the apostolic visitation.

00:08:07.600 And it was decided that, no, he came to visit us.

00:08:12.800 Some of the brothers said, well, what's it all about?

00:08:14.560 He said, well, it's about TV programs.

00:08:16.080 But in fact, you know, the good bishop there, well, I hope he's a good bishop, whoever he is, he had written three times in success or contact with the Holy See, needing an apostolic visitation, needing an apostolic visitation three times.

00:08:29.100 In short, like a couple of weeks apart, 14th of August, end of August, a few days into September, he'd gone to the Holy See saying, we need an apostolic visitation here.

00:08:40.680 So you'd think it was something really big.

00:08:42.640 It had all the flavor of a massive crime syndicate.

00:08:46.540 So he got the visitation, but it ended up being that we had a contract that the bishop said the contract had expired and therefore we were no longer wanted.

00:08:56.260 We weren't there for the chaplaincy.

00:08:58.360 We wanted a canonical house.

00:09:00.780 We had already bought a property in the country, which is where the seat for the canonical house.

00:09:07.220 And we had the church, it was an old Protestant church, meeting hall for the closed brethren.

00:09:16.080 We turned it into a little chapel there, an oratory, and we have a house and a place for people to have cups of tea and whatnot.

00:09:22.760 So we had that functioning.

00:09:24.380 We've got about, I'd say, a couple of hundred people, 200 people.

00:09:29.160 That's about our best, but I'd say 150, 200 people coming regularly every Sunday, beautiful choir and everything quite peaceful from our point of view.

00:09:39.520 But things were warming up.

00:09:41.060 I suppose with three priests out there, you've got about, you know, at least 21 to 24 masses a week, which I don't suppose is very good for the statistics if you're against the old mass.

00:09:52.140 You know, 21 masses here is far too many, so they sent us, trying to send us away.

00:10:01.420 But there's a question, you know, South Island is, I suppose, very small for Canada, but South Island for people in Europe, it's the same size as England and Wales.

00:10:11.880 Okay, it's fairly big.

00:10:15.460 And if you wanted to find another old mass, okay, the bishop's putting one on.

00:10:20.100 It's a bit of a puppet show, I think.

00:10:21.700 It's just there for the, you know, it's there for, well, we're there, there'll be an old mass.

00:10:25.660 But when we go, I would say that would be going too anyway.

00:10:29.060 But put that aside.

00:10:31.220 To go to another mass, you'd have to go to Auckland.

00:10:33.200 Well, that's about over a thousand miles away.

00:10:35.140 Or we'd have to go to Australia.

00:10:37.600 Australia is the same distance as Scotland to Moscow.

00:10:41.460 And it's water.

00:10:42.640 So, I mean, what do you do?

00:10:44.400 Do you just get up and walk out?

00:10:46.140 But how can you just walk out?

00:10:48.640 When people have been there, some people have moved their houses from other parts of the island to come all the way up to Christchurch,

00:10:56.540 to buy a house, invest their money, find a job for the mass, for the catechism, for their kids.

00:11:03.640 Well, that's our predicament.

00:11:05.680 So, we tried to fight it.

00:11:08.460 We had a jolly nice, got a nice boy in Australia who's done a great amount of work for us.

00:11:14.480 We sent it off to Rome.

00:11:16.120 I went to Rome once, met a priest there who was going to help us.

00:11:19.480 He said to me, I've got money.

00:11:22.420 I said, what do you mean?

00:11:23.800 He said, well, you know, like 50,000 for a mass to offer to the cardinal.

00:11:29.860 I said, come on, what are you talking about?

00:11:33.800 But apparently that was considered to be a way.

00:11:35.840 Well, I don't know.

00:11:36.900 What are we dealing with, you know?

00:11:38.980 So, that's how it's, that's a bit of the scenery we're coming from.

00:11:42.820 Some people say there's a process for everything, but the processes aren't working so well, I don't think.

00:11:49.080 Yeah, indeed, indeed.

00:11:51.080 I wanted to ask you about the timing of your letter.

00:11:56.880 We're going to get into the letter as well, but the timing of it's very interesting.

00:12:01.200 You sort of survived through the Francis pontificate with a lot of hardship.

00:12:06.120 I know that.

00:12:06.620 But a lot of the people who were watching, especially the faithful, were thinking, how are so many of the orders, and for that matter, the bishops and cardinals, how are they just sort of going with this and not doing a Vigano or a Father Altman?

00:12:27.680 You know what I mean?

00:12:28.100 Just how, how is this basically so calm?

00:12:33.000 And then, into the Leo pontificate, you guys issued this letter.

00:12:39.060 So, I'm just wondering about the timing.

00:12:41.300 It was a long time, and you guys already suffered much.

00:12:46.040 What was that, what was the straw that broke the camel's back, or what was your thinking in terms of, now we have to do this?

00:12:52.160 Papa Stronsi works like Rome.

00:12:53.640 It's very slow, because this is a kind of a bit of a build-up.

00:12:58.340 The letter comes as a bit of a build-up.

00:13:01.180 So, I would pinpoint the build-up, partly to do with Christchurch.

00:13:06.520 But specifically, if I had my 9-11, it was Francis in Singapore telling those children, is my God bigger than your God?

00:13:18.420 All religions are just like languages. 1.00

00:13:20.860 I must admit, for me, it really hurt me.

00:13:24.840 Not hurt me, it really angered me, in fact.

00:13:27.680 I was in Rome at the time, and I thought, what the heck is going on?

00:13:32.240 How can you sit there and tell people this?

00:13:34.840 And then, to look to the side, there was a shot to the side.

00:13:38.680 There was a bit of a, not a grandstand, but a whole lot of seats there, with religious dignitaries all sitting there listening.

00:13:46.080 Listening? What are they doing listening?

00:13:47.800 Why did nobody even speak up then?

00:13:49.700 There was a young interpreter to his side, interpreting from Italian to English.

00:13:56.760 He should have said, in the middle of the year, what is this about?

00:13:59.740 Now, yesterday I was watching the Pope in Rome with the foreign religions.

00:14:09.480 It's the same old thing.

00:14:13.580 I listened to the speech, and he's in English, so we can understand him very clearly.

00:14:17.820 And he's saying, to foreign religions, to Buddhists and Shintos and Muslims and Jews, to a lot of them.

00:14:24.260 So, dialogue is not about compromise.

00:14:29.240 You're supposed to be strong in your religion.

00:14:31.300 But that's religious indifference.

00:14:35.120 We can't have that.

00:14:36.980 And we've got a whole litany of this.

00:14:39.100 So, how did it start?

00:14:40.540 This is how we wrote our letter.

00:14:41.840 So, we had this moment in Singapore.

00:14:44.960 We started to study, what about heretic popes?

00:14:47.880 And what about the...

00:14:48.640 Give the whole thing a good look at. 0.94

00:14:50.520 You know, as I said before, many a time now, the old nun who taught me, she used to say, if it's Catholic, you can kick it. 1.00

00:14:56.660 So, we've given it a good kick to see, what's this all about, you know?

00:15:01.180 And I think the whole thing percolated and percolated, and people thought, and eventually, we had to say, well, we'd better sit down and talk and see what we think about all of this.

00:15:12.700 And that's where the open letter came from.

00:15:14.340 So, you can say it's at least probably nearly a year old, early in the coming.

00:15:21.340 Okay.

00:15:21.500 And the big question that stems from that is, weren't you afraid of the punishments that would come from issuing the open letter?

00:15:34.320 Because I think, I personally think, because I know a lot of the cardinals and the bishops, and I know them to have known.

00:15:45.160 I've talked with them personally about issues of the exact same kind in the pontificates of John Paul II and Benedict,

00:15:52.160 where they railed publicly on the side of the Pope against the exact same, I want to say heresies, but I'm not a theologian,

00:16:02.600 the exact same issues that are not Catholic, and they would speak very forthrightly against them.

00:16:11.400 And then, all of a sudden, radio silence.

00:16:14.700 Some of them even told me, I won't talk to journalists about these things.

00:16:20.620 And I had been talking with them as friends for a decade.

00:16:25.260 I don't know if I should ascribe to that fear of retaliation or concern for a schism or something.

00:16:31.740 I don't even know what.

00:16:32.880 So, what were your concerns that way?

00:16:35.460 Was there any kind of fear of punishment for signing the open letter?

00:16:38.540 If you're honest, no one wants to be ostracized.

00:16:41.320 No one wants to be so-called punished.

00:16:45.260 We're in a position where we own what we own, so they can't throw us onto the street exactly.

00:16:53.020 But they can do, I suppose, if we have enemies or people who want to punish us,

00:16:57.280 they could do all kinds of things to us.

00:16:59.320 You could be lay-aside, you could be excommunicated, you could be suspended, you could be suppressed.

00:17:04.860 All these things.

00:17:05.740 Okay.

00:17:07.120 Look, in the end, what are we here for?

00:17:10.300 What's the good of being a Catholic? 1.00

00:17:12.240 What's the good of being a religious if you can't stand up for what you know is the truth? 0.69

00:17:16.720 We celebrate the red vestments of the martyrs.

00:17:19.260 Oh, by the way, there's no Blessed Sarkin here.

00:17:21.060 This is just a place where we say Massive and there's an overflow of priests.

00:17:25.920 You know, we have the red vestments of the martyrs and we love the martyrs.

00:17:30.100 We're afraid of being thrown on the street or we're afraid of being ostracized or afraid of being punished.

00:17:38.060 For what?

00:17:39.800 The apostles were happy to be scourged for the love of Jesus.

00:17:43.460 Now, Jesus is the one who's missing out on this whole business.

00:17:48.560 We're talking with these people from foreign religions and not even mention the holy name of Jesus, 0.99

00:17:53.280 saying that, you know, we haven't got the truth now in the church.

00:17:55.720 Well, for goodness sake, if we haven't got the truth, I've got the...

00:17:58.840 Every night we make the act of faith.

00:18:01.740 Oh, my God, who art the infallible truth, who can neither deceive nor be deceived.

00:18:08.900 I believe all that the holy church proposes to my belief because thou hast revealed it to her.

00:18:14.580 Now, if the Catholic church isn't the foundation of truth, yeah, I agree. 1.00

00:18:19.760 Then tell all the Buddhists, tell the Shintos, tell the whole lot of them that there's no... 1.00

00:18:24.240 Your religion's as good as mine now.

00:18:26.660 And in fact, Jesus didn't need to come.

00:18:29.360 He wasted his time and the martyrs wasted their lives and the missionaries wasted their lives. 0.96

00:18:33.660 And the priests today might as well go off and become some other religion and do something else.

00:18:38.420 Look, we're here because we love Jesus.

00:18:40.720 We love our lady.

00:18:41.780 We love our faith.

00:18:42.740 We love being Catholics.

00:18:45.160 And if we can't have that, then you can take the whole lot away.

00:18:49.280 You can take it all away.

00:18:50.960 It doesn't matter.

00:18:53.780 It's our Lord.

00:18:54.700 We've got to be faithful to our Lord.

00:18:55.820 And in this time, it's a time of darkness.

00:18:57.740 Where does the darkness come from?

00:18:59.300 Well, I've got a lot out of it.

00:19:00.600 And I can tell people to read.

00:19:02.280 Read this Marari Vos of Gregory XVI in 1832.

00:19:07.340 And he tells you, he says, this is one of the worst things, this religious indifference-ism.

00:19:11.700 This getting all these religions together and making out all the same is one of the worst things you can have. 1.00

00:19:15.460 He says, number 13, Marari Vos on indifference-ism.

00:19:19.220 This perverse opinion is spread on all sides by the fraud of the wicked.

00:19:29.620 You're spreading this.

00:19:32.840 Gregory XVI say, that's the fraud of the wicked you're spreading, who claim that it is possible to obtain the eternal salvation of the soul by the profession of any kind of religion, as long as morality is maintained.

00:19:46.660 And he tells the bishops, drive this deadly error away.

00:19:52.480 Well, we're sitting in the middle of it.

00:19:54.340 We're having picnics of it.

00:19:56.260 We're processing with it.

00:19:58.220 Pa kamama.

00:19:59.780 You know, the whole, the whole bang shoot.

00:20:03.440 Well, this isn't Catholic.

00:20:05.280 This isn't, this isn't what our Lord said.

00:20:07.480 Our Lord said, I am the way, the truth.

00:20:10.200 I am the truth.

00:20:11.140 The truth is a person.

00:20:12.280 I am the truth in the life.

00:20:14.140 So we can't say the Catholic Church hasn't got the truth.

00:20:16.780 If the Catholic Church hasn't got the truth, it's got nothing.

00:20:18.820 That's why we're Catholics.

00:20:21.340 So, yeah.

00:20:23.560 Hello, my friends.

00:20:24.560 I want to thank you so much for your prayers, for your support for Life State News.

00:20:27.580 We couldn't do this without you.

00:20:28.960 We're right here in Rome, in the Eternal City.

00:20:32.160 We're not going to cede Rome.

00:20:34.580 We're not going to give up on the Church.

00:20:37.640 We're going to continue to fight despite everything they throw at us.

00:20:41.180 And we need to do that with your help.

00:20:43.520 I would beg for your support so that we can continue this work.

00:20:47.460 It's coming up end of year.

00:20:49.160 And I know many do end of year donations.

00:20:52.520 Please consider Life State News and your giving.

00:20:54.500 God bless you, my friends.

00:20:55.400 And thank you.

00:20:55.840 I want to press you on one other thing because, Father, this affects not only the priests and

00:21:04.620 religious, it affects the laity as well, particularly those of us who are speaking out.

00:21:11.720 And there's not many.

00:21:12.660 It's a different world.

00:21:13.400 And I've been asked by even my wife and others, what are you going to do if?

00:21:20.060 Because the ifs are real.

00:21:22.780 We were told already years ago that, you know, should you continue to speak out?

00:21:28.620 Despite the fact that we're trying to speak out charitably and for the sake of the Church,

00:21:33.620 for the sake of the Pope even, and his soul, because I believe very firmly in our Lord's

00:21:39.940 warning about the millstone.

00:21:41.660 I was told you could be excommunicated.

00:21:44.720 You could be denied the sacraments.

00:21:46.720 And I have, I don't even know what to make of that because I survive on sacraments.

00:21:53.120 I don't, I go to daily mass.

00:21:55.360 I love our Lord, love going to daily mass, but I don't know that I could survive without

00:22:00.600 it.

00:22:01.160 So that's a real concern.

00:22:02.500 It's a real thing.

00:22:03.700 So someone's going to shoot you or someone's going to, yeah, that's more of a concern for

00:22:08.100 my family.

00:22:08.580 But when they talk about you'll be excommunicated or something like that, or denied the sacraments,

00:22:13.920 that's a real threat.

00:22:16.420 And what, what are we, how are we supposed to make sense of that?

00:22:18.800 What are we supposed to do?

00:22:20.320 You know, that doesn't make sense.

00:22:21.800 I know that doesn't make sense.

00:22:23.920 You can't be, you can't be excommunicated for loving Christ.

00:22:29.460 You can't be loving, you can't be excommunicated for loving the Catholic Church.

00:22:34.100 You can't be excommunicated for sticking up for the Catholic Church.

00:22:37.340 If that's so, it's the excommunicator who is in fault.

00:22:43.220 And that's what it comes down to.

00:22:46.520 It's not the excommunicated.

00:22:48.280 It's the excommunicator because he's the, he is then the persecutor of our Lord's church, 0.98

00:22:53.660 of our Lord's faith.

00:22:55.420 And if Pius X said, you read in Pashendi in 19.7, he's saying the enemies are within the

00:23:03.620 church, right into a vital organs or something to the center of that, right into the

00:23:07.340 heart of the church, 1907, right?

00:23:11.740 We're now in 2025.

00:23:16.020 If those enemies weren't got out and if they continue to grow, and we know they did, they've

00:23:19.960 infested the church.

00:23:21.440 Well, there's our problem.

00:23:23.820 So how much is the church taken over?

00:23:27.340 How far have the enemies gone?

00:23:29.320 We don't know.

00:23:30.100 And that's because it's spiritual.

00:23:32.900 If it was physical, we'd know.

00:23:34.900 And now it's becoming, not exactly, but it's kind of like physical now because now we can

00:23:39.940 say, you know, you can say that letter, you just take, I would like to see this happen.

00:23:44.760 So this, if you could say, I repudiate Amoris Laetitiae, Fiducia Suplicans, and document

00:23:52.940 on human fraternity.

00:23:55.320 On a postcard, sign it and send it to a priest and say, will you sign with me on these things?

00:24:02.540 Send it to the bishop.

00:24:03.440 Will you sign for me on these things?

00:24:06.160 Are you one also, where are you in this great, in this great shamozzle that we've got and 0.99

00:24:11.920 we're living amongst?

00:24:13.100 Are you with this or you're against this?

00:24:16.920 You'll find out who are the Catholics because you can't be a Catholic and go along with these 1.00

00:24:22.720 documents.

00:24:23.540 It's not possible.

00:24:25.040 It was possible.

00:24:27.360 Well, we might as well just join the Shintos now. 1.00

00:24:30.460 All religions are the same. 0.70

00:24:31.580 This is all part, our Lord says it's the infallible truth.

00:24:36.900 This has been the truth since the beginning.

00:24:40.040 If this truth from the beginning is now out of step and has expired, that's not the truth

00:24:47.760 that's gone out.

00:24:48.740 It's the expirers.

00:24:50.860 So we just need to find out who are the people we're living with?

00:24:54.900 Who are these other Catholics? 1.00

00:24:56.340 Get a list of them.

00:24:57.280 Write to the bishop.

00:24:57.840 Say, do you or don't you go along with Amoris Laetitiae?

00:25:01.580 Amoris Laetitiae signed yours sincerely.

00:25:04.600 And if he doesn't sign it or if he's silent, silence is consent.

00:25:08.200 Then you need to wipe them off, tick them off and find out where the bishops are that we

00:25:13.840 can trust, where the priests that we can actually trust, find where they are.

00:25:19.180 It's not rocket science.

00:25:23.940 We can easily do this.

00:25:25.300 If there's a movement of it in the church, I think it'd be a wonderful thing.

00:25:29.940 We'd see where we are because at the moment we're all in a fog.

00:25:32.740 It's an interesting thing.

00:25:35.180 By implication, you're saying something very similar to what Bishop Schneider told me once.

00:25:40.800 Bishop Athanasius Schneider was on a program with me where he discussed the access to the

00:25:47.000 traditional mass.

00:25:48.680 And for one thing, it might shock people.

00:25:52.060 He was one of the official visitators for the Vatican under Benedict to the SSPX.

00:25:57.700 And he came out saying, yeah, they're just Catholics.

00:25:59.320 We can go to their masses, no problem.

00:26:01.420 In fact, he said the SSPX would be a sort of a safe house for or a escape route for Catholics 1.00

00:26:09.520 looking for tradition.

00:26:10.720 But in addition, he gave sort of his blessing to an independent monastery that was being

00:26:17.160 set up outside of the local bishops' official jurisdiction, which I thought was very interesting.

00:26:23.440 Because it does basically say that if you're in this weird situation and punished for it,

00:26:32.040 that these things aren't real and that you can still receive the sacraments.

00:26:41.540 But sorry, it's just difficult to discern, especially for the laity who think, I don't know,

00:26:49.080 am I always doing the right thing?

00:26:50.780 You're trying to discern, trying to serve the church faithfully and yet trying to stay

00:26:55.760 within your bounds.

00:26:56.860 And it's just, it's a nightmare, as you said.

00:26:59.600 But it's very heartening to at least see that you might still have the sacraments despite

00:27:06.680 being officially or unofficially or however it would go denied.

00:27:10.980 You raised something else, Father, which I think is very important.

00:27:13.600 And I would encourage everybody to go and look at your open letter, because I think the

00:27:17.980 open letter itself was very helpful because it outlined, and I'll go through a little bit

00:27:23.140 as you did, of these things.

00:27:25.620 We repudiate amoris laetitia.

00:27:27.500 We repudiate traditionis custodos.

00:27:29.780 We repudiate fiducia saplicans.

00:27:32.560 We repudiate amoris laetitia permitting Holy Communion to couples to live in sin. 0.99

00:27:36.660 We repudiate traditionis custodos persecution of the mass and Catholics.

00:27:41.880 We repudiate fiducius supplicans permitting the blessing of same-sex couples. 0.51

00:27:47.100 We repudiate the document on human fraternity stating that God wills all religions.

00:27:51.760 And you go on and on.

00:27:54.580 It's a beautiful summary of the errors and very concise.

00:28:01.460 And so I think there's, by the way, it's a great work.

00:28:03.720 It assists the church greatly.

00:28:05.060 It sees at least her simple faithful who are just trying to get a handle on things.

00:28:10.480 So just a big thank you for that and for your work in making that document with your brothers.

00:28:16.560 I want to address one more thing.

00:28:18.620 And that is, I think some people will think, oh, controversial, controversial.

00:28:22.080 But say that you were ordained a priest sub condizione by Archbishop Lefebvre.

00:28:29.080 First of all, what does that mean?

00:28:32.040 And what would you have to say about that in light of what's going on in the church today?

00:28:35.940 I think it's an interesting question.

00:28:39.300 I take it back to when I was a seminarian.

00:28:41.180 I remember one night we were there with the prefect of the students who was a fairly well-known.

00:28:50.020 He'd written some books and he had a chair at Fordham University.

00:28:53.940 This is 1970s, probably about 1974, 75.

00:29:00.240 And he was having a drink and we were standing together, about three or four of us.

00:29:07.800 And he looked over at a group of priests and he said, hmm, they don't know that they're not priests yet.

00:29:14.300 That's what he said.

00:29:15.400 One of those shocking things you remember.

00:29:17.480 What was that all about?

00:29:19.220 They don't know they're not priests yet.

00:29:21.780 I was ordained in 1978.

00:29:23.140 I came into some trouble when I started to read Michael Davies on the crisis in the church.

00:29:32.960 And I had some bad experiences with Pope John Paul II when he came to New Zealand because I was at the mass and I had a great love of the Pope.

00:29:44.200 And just kind of like, well, someone said that you're like a wide-eyed sheep, you know, kind of like kind of a bit innocent in a way.

00:29:53.140 Didn't really understand what was going on.

00:29:54.940 I think that's how a lot of young priests are.

00:29:56.620 They don't have a clue what's going on.

00:29:58.220 They don't know anything about what's going on behind the scenes.

00:30:01.840 So I was at this mass in Athletic Park in Christchurch.

00:30:09.160 And I went up to give, I was mostly saying, I was learning the old mass, you see. 0.98

00:30:15.820 We hadn't had any Latin.

00:30:17.680 I hadn't had any Latin.

00:30:18.620 And so I was having to say masses out in the shed out the back of the monastery and sound the words out.

00:30:24.140 I was saying a low mass was taking about two and a half hours.

00:30:26.360 You know, I was sounding the word.

00:30:27.700 I knew it was right.

00:30:29.740 And I didn't, I couldn't say I particularly wanted to be a traditional priest at all.

00:30:33.560 But I was convinced by the truth of what I'd read.

00:30:38.080 And I knew that there was something in the old mass and I had to do it.

00:30:41.200 So I was doing it by conviction.

00:30:43.580 And then along came John Paul II for his visit to New Zealand in November 1986, I think it was.

00:30:49.160 I broke, I just decided, well, I'd better go to this mass.

00:30:52.040 It was a new mass.

00:30:53.420 We were all given these pottles of holy communion for consecration with cling film over them.

00:31:00.740 And as I went down in a procession to give out holy communion with all the whole row of priests,

00:31:08.620 a few of us were there from the same community.

00:31:10.780 A man came up to me young, not young, but a 20-year-old or something,

00:31:15.760 came up to me with a head of red hair and a ring in his ear at the time.

00:31:20.740 I want communion from the Pope.

00:31:22.440 I said, well, I'm carrying the Blessed Ark.

00:31:24.860 And I said, well, I'm sorry, I can't help you.

00:31:27.320 I said, you know, only certain people were picked.

00:31:30.980 I carried on.

00:31:33.000 Got to the place where I was supposed to give out holy communion.

00:31:36.020 And he came up about the 5th.

00:31:37.420 And I put the host onto his hands.

00:31:42.360 He screwed it up and threw it up in the air.

00:31:46.420 Tell you what, it was one of the worst things you'd ever go through as a priest.

00:31:49.780 It was just utterly shocking.

00:31:51.380 We're down on the ground trying to find particles in the grass,

00:31:53.780 myself and Father Donnie Fraser, who was beside me, passed away now.

00:31:59.660 I look up and hear this man is doing the same thing to somebody else

00:32:02.600 who is giving out holy communion.

00:32:04.700 So I was so stunned.

00:32:06.060 I just wrapped up the host I had in my potter with the stole I was wearing

00:32:11.020 and went back to the place where the Blessed Ark was being reposed.

00:32:19.140 And here are a couple of priests holding Ken Bean's box.

00:32:23.560 You know about this long, this deep.

00:32:27.060 And people were tipping their hosts into this box, right?

00:32:32.220 Because of what they had left over.

00:32:34.240 So it was a terrible experience.

00:32:35.940 Then in the crowd comes the Pope speaking.

00:32:39.140 They're saying,

00:32:40.180 what is the distance between Rome and Christ's church?

00:32:43.600 And he said,

00:32:44.280 at the moment there is no distance.

00:32:46.200 And people were laughing.

00:32:47.180 And I was standing with my pothole of hosts,

00:32:51.060 not knowing where to go in the crowd,

00:32:52.940 until I got to go home, back to the monastery.

00:32:56.480 That night, we had a 30-bedroom retreat house there.

00:33:01.620 There were people down.

00:33:02.640 We were all down.

00:33:03.160 The priests and the guest priests were down.

00:33:05.380 They're having a drink.

00:33:06.140 And someone said to me,

00:33:07.400 what a shame it happened to you.

00:33:08.940 And I said, what do you mean it happened to me?

00:33:10.520 He said, well, you know,

00:33:13.080 you've got the host broken.

00:33:15.800 I said, well, yeah.

00:33:17.840 In a way, I said,

00:33:18.820 it kind of was innocent compared with tipping our Lord

00:33:21.500 into a what he's baked beans box.

00:33:25.620 And a priest who was listening said,

00:33:27.180 oh, yeah, but not really.

00:33:31.060 I said, body, blood, soul, and divinity,

00:33:34.260 the Lord Jesus Christ.

00:33:35.140 He said, yeah, but not the bones as well.

00:33:38.420 Right.

00:33:38.820 So this is a very confusing time for a young priest.

00:33:42.760 I was between Michael Davies on one side,

00:33:46.640 this experience on the other side.

00:33:49.260 And then into the fray came,

00:33:51.820 the Father General came.

00:33:53.240 I brought my mass in from out in the shed,

00:33:55.880 out in the garden,

00:33:57.620 into my room.

00:33:58.560 And then I thought,

00:33:59.060 well, I've got to get this from here up into the chapel.

00:34:01.560 It was very scary because in the 1970s,

00:34:06.240 there wasn't internet.

00:34:07.100 And we had no access to it anyway.

00:34:10.160 And there's only yourself and your books.

00:34:12.760 I had my books turned the other way around

00:34:14.420 so that people couldn't see what books I was reading,

00:34:17.100 you know.

00:34:18.120 So I had the mass in the room.

00:34:19.540 And I said, how am I going to get it up to the chapel?

00:34:20.960 And I said, there was a good brother there,

00:34:22.460 but it was a priest.

00:34:23.940 But he couldn't keep a secret.

00:34:25.080 So I thought, well,

00:34:27.880 the only way I can get this out, 0.95

00:34:29.200 people not to think I was a complete lunatic, 0.55

00:34:31.680 was to tell them secretly. 0.87

00:34:34.060 So I said, confidentially,

00:34:35.820 I said, you know,

00:34:36.560 I'm saying the old mass.

00:34:38.560 Are you saying the old mass?

00:34:39.440 Yeah, I'm saying,

00:34:39.900 please don't, you know.

00:34:41.580 He said, yeah, yeah, yeah, sure.

00:34:42.800 Well, within about a week,

00:34:43.680 everybody knew I was saying the old mass.

00:34:46.700 So I had the same mass upstairs by now in the chapel.

00:34:51.500 And this evening,

00:34:52.760 the Father General who was visiting came.

00:34:55.180 And he saw, he came to my mass.

00:34:57.900 Well, he stayed for quite a long time

00:34:59.560 because I was probably only up to the offertory

00:35:01.380 when he gave up an exasperation and went out.

00:35:04.160 So the next day he wanted to see me.

00:35:07.380 And he was telling me that

00:35:08.780 all the things that I'd studied

00:35:10.740 were part of the history of theology.

00:35:13.560 And I knew,

00:35:16.760 because I just started to read Pashendi,

00:35:18.580 I knew the history of theology.

00:35:19.840 This is modernism.

00:35:21.520 I said, well, if I keep saying mass,

00:35:23.080 what will happen?

00:35:23.580 Will you expel me?

00:35:24.380 He said, yes, you have to expel me.

00:35:26.660 Which I was finally expelled.

00:35:28.620 All right.

00:35:28.980 I knew that between myself and the Pope

00:35:33.260 was this Father General.

00:35:38.420 The Pope, I've been at his mass.

00:35:40.980 I've met already a priest

00:35:45.080 from the Society of St. Pius X,

00:35:46.460 Father Stephen Abdu.

00:35:47.900 So I telephoned Father Abdu and said,

00:35:49.640 you know, I can say mass now

00:35:52.220 for you if you like.

00:35:55.420 Well, I might have needed a bit of a brush up,

00:35:57.320 but you know, I was ready.

00:35:59.140 He came down and said to me,

00:36:00.120 look, I don't think you could.

00:36:03.400 He said, you're ordained.

00:36:05.360 And you said the name of the person who ordained me.

00:36:07.580 He said people wouldn't trust him.

00:36:09.000 And he'd given out heresy over the radio.

00:36:13.900 He said, so you should really go

00:36:17.320 to Archbishop Lefebvre

00:36:18.820 and get yourself ordained properly

00:36:20.400 so you know you're a priest.

00:36:21.860 So now I haven't gone yet, right?

00:36:23.260 So I'm waiting.

00:36:24.060 I'm saying my masses.

00:36:25.240 And then this day I finished my mass

00:36:27.260 and I came into breakfast

00:36:29.320 and one of the priests who knew what I was doing

00:36:31.420 and probably must have known what I was thinking,

00:36:33.400 he said to me of himself.

00:36:36.780 He said, at least I know that I am a priest.

00:36:43.980 That was spooky.

00:36:46.180 Go through a stage then of saying mass and things

00:36:48.380 thinking, you know, I hope this is my body.

00:36:51.500 I hope, you know, you can't live like that.

00:36:55.340 You can't live like that.

00:36:56.880 So thanks be to God.

00:36:57.720 But I got my way to Econ.

00:37:01.560 In fact, I did it through telling the provincial

00:37:03.560 before I left and he never stopped me.

00:37:06.000 And I asked the superior of the house

00:37:08.600 if I could borrow the chalice while I was away.

00:37:10.820 And he said I could.

00:37:12.260 So in a way I went kind of almost legally

00:37:14.180 because my spiritual director had told me

00:37:16.240 that I could go for five months

00:37:17.940 without any canonical penalties.

00:37:19.700 And he was a priest, Father Muley,

00:37:22.560 who was of the Sacred Signatura.

00:37:26.120 He could work in the Sacred Signatura in Rome.

00:37:28.440 So I went quite confidently.

00:37:31.860 And I was ordained again by Archbishop Lefebvre

00:37:34.400 on the following Easter Tuesday.

00:37:37.240 That means that if the first ordination was all right,

00:37:41.180 the rest are just ceremonies.

00:37:43.200 If it wasn't, then that would have made me a priest.

00:37:47.400 First, you see.

00:37:49.840 So you see there are a lot of confusion, can't you?

00:37:52.040 You can see.

00:37:52.880 Now, if you look at it,

00:37:54.680 I don't know whether this is worth saying or not,

00:38:00.520 but it probably is.

00:38:02.540 Let's look at this whole thing just culturally.

00:38:06.020 Nothing to do with theology now.

00:38:07.200 Let's jump out of theology.

00:38:08.400 Let's look at culture.

00:38:10.380 Do you remember when they were going to abandon the old mass 0.57

00:38:13.680 and the lady who writes the spooky books, 0.98

00:38:16.920 what's your name?

00:38:17.820 Agatha Christie.

00:38:18.860 Agatha Christie started this petition to the Pope

00:38:23.620 to try and let people say the old mass

00:38:25.440 because you could say that the mass was part of the,

00:38:29.280 should have been world heritage, the old mass. 0.99

00:38:32.680 Well, maybe it's a bit the same

00:38:34.300 with the Episcopal consecrations.

00:38:36.060 Let's talk culturally.

00:38:38.280 Nothing to a theology now,

00:38:39.540 just because people make their own conclusions.

00:38:41.300 But culturally, I looked this up the other day.

00:38:44.620 Do you know, culturally,

00:38:47.040 we're going to lose completely

00:38:50.240 those people who are part of what was laughed at once

00:38:54.660 called the pipeline theory.

00:38:56.940 The pipeline theory was a put down

00:38:59.060 of the Episcopal consecration in the 1970s.

00:39:02.800 People used to laugh at it, you know, 0.97

00:39:04.240 because we believed, we foolish people, 0.96

00:39:06.440 that a bishop, the hands went down 0.99

00:39:10.140 from one head to the other

00:39:11.800 and like a pipeline of passing

00:39:14.160 on the apostolic succession.

00:39:16.140 We believe that, and I believe it.

00:39:18.940 So when you think of it,

00:39:19.960 those prayers that were said,

00:39:21.880 that our prayers of the Episcopal consecration

00:39:26.040 go right back to the, to Gelasius,

00:39:29.020 and that's, and probably earlier

00:39:30.280 into the smoke and into the clouds

00:39:31.800 of the early church.

00:39:34.160 The form of the sacrament

00:39:35.540 is what makes the bishop the form.

00:39:39.260 The other words, just like the,

00:39:40.700 this is my body for consecration of a post,

00:39:43.700 then the words of the form

00:39:45.980 are used for the making of a bishop.

00:39:49.060 Now, over 1,200, 1,400 years

00:39:51.840 in our Latin rite, culturally,

00:39:55.360 we've had that rite

00:39:56.780 of Episcopal consecration.

00:39:59.620 If it was a tree,

00:40:01.300 if it was a building

00:40:02.400 of 1,400 years old,

00:40:04.740 it would be world heritage.

00:40:06.540 You wouldn't be allowed to touch it.

00:40:08.460 Do you know John Henry?

00:40:10.100 There are now, I've checked them out.

00:40:12.360 There are eight, maximum,

00:40:15.280 eight bishops

00:40:16.240 left inside the structures of the church

00:40:19.940 who were consecrated

00:40:21.840 according to the old rite

00:40:23.420 of consecration.

00:40:25.300 The oldest of them

00:40:26.440 is 103.8 years old today.

00:40:29.620 The youngest is 95.

00:40:32.640 So you can expect

00:40:34.060 within a few years

00:40:36.320 there will not be one bishop left,

00:40:39.460 culturally,

00:40:40.200 one bishop left

00:40:41.120 who was an inheritor

00:40:43.560 of that ancient rite

00:40:45.640 of Episcopal consecration

00:40:48.140 with the ancient form

00:40:50.140 preserved in the rite.

00:40:52.640 It's like this.

00:40:53.800 Imagine you were given

00:40:54.780 into your hands

00:40:55.960 this beautiful ring

00:40:58.140 that was 1,500, 1,700 years old.

00:41:05.040 He said,

00:41:05.740 would you like to wear it

00:41:06.540 and put it on?

00:41:09.500 And then along comes 1968.

00:41:11.500 He said,

00:41:11.680 well, yeah, well,

00:41:12.340 we're finishing

00:41:13.200 with those rings now.

00:41:14.520 Here's the kind of golden band.

00:41:16.000 It's, you know,

00:41:16.640 noble simplicity.

00:41:18.140 Goodness, we've lost a lot.

00:41:22.600 Now, if we say,

00:41:23.960 this is out of culture now,

00:41:25.120 I'm not sure about all of this,

00:41:26.300 but this is the feeling side.

00:41:28.820 You say, you know,

00:41:30.220 if we say that the old mass

00:41:33.140 gives special graces

00:41:35.480 that might not be there

00:41:38.000 in the new mass,

00:41:40.580 could we say

00:41:41.740 there could have been

00:41:42.580 special graces

00:41:43.600 in that old rite

00:41:45.780 in that old rite

00:41:45.800 that gave something

00:41:47.340 of the dignity

00:41:48.640 of the state

00:41:49.460 and wisdom

00:41:50.340 to bishops?

00:41:52.420 I don't know,

00:41:53.820 but I wouldn't mind betting.

00:41:55.460 But we know

00:41:55.920 that within a few years

00:41:56.960 all those,

00:41:57.940 it'll be gone.

00:42:00.140 Now,

00:42:00.700 I go now

00:42:01.080 that this is still culture.

00:42:01.920 In 1600s,

00:42:05.760 16,

00:42:06.740 1660s,

00:42:08.320 whenever it was,

00:42:08.960 after the death of,

00:42:10.120 after they killed

00:42:10.700 King Charles I

00:42:11.780 in England, 0.99

00:42:14.340 chopped his head off, 0.86

00:42:15.300 Cromwell's army 0.87

00:42:15.980 came up to Scotland

00:42:16.980 to try and get

00:42:17.680 the honours of Scotland,

00:42:19.800 which is the crown

00:42:20.700 and the scepter

00:42:23.180 and the state sword.

00:42:25.380 They were after it.

00:42:26.120 These are the jewels.

00:42:27.640 So,

00:42:28.100 the enemies

00:42:28.840 wanted these

00:42:29.960 and they made their way

00:42:31.160 up to Donata Castle.

00:42:33.560 Finally,

00:42:33.920 it was sieged

00:42:34.580 and there was a woman

00:42:36.940 that was allowed

00:42:37.340 to go in and out

00:42:38.140 and she went in one day

00:42:40.980 with flax on her back 0.75

00:42:42.060 and she came out

00:42:43.640 with the crown jewels

00:42:45.140 on her back

00:42:45.740 and hid them.

00:42:48.440 They were buried

00:42:49.400 in a chapel

00:42:50.120 under a flagstone

00:42:52.120 for nine years.

00:42:54.340 I think

00:42:55.080 that if that rite

00:42:57.780 of consecration

00:42:58.640 is something

00:42:58.960 like the crown jewels,

00:43:02.120 it's a good thing

00:43:03.860 that there are bishops

00:43:05.680 who have preserved it

00:43:07.620 outside the structure

00:43:09.000 and there are plenty

00:43:10.920 of them.

00:43:12.760 You know,

00:43:12.920 look at the,

00:43:13.540 who smuggled them out?

00:43:15.560 Who was like the lady 0.60

00:43:16.400 with the flagstone

00:43:17.020 on her back?

00:43:17.860 Archbishop Lefebvre,

00:43:18.740 Archbishop took.

00:43:21.960 They spread

00:43:22.880 the Episcopal consecration.

00:43:25.520 So the Episcopal consecration,

00:43:27.260 after these eight bishops

00:43:28.540 pass on

00:43:29.240 and it's no longer

00:43:30.320 in the structures,

00:43:31.160 at least that consecration

00:43:33.000 is being held

00:43:33.700 by people

00:43:34.660 who aren't thieves.

00:43:36.600 They haven't stolen

00:43:37.380 the sacraments.

00:43:38.120 They're not enemies

00:43:39.180 of the Jews.

00:43:39.960 They're not schismatics.

00:43:41.260 They're not salivacantists.

00:43:43.660 They're Catholics

00:43:44.440 who are doing their best

00:43:47.160 to preserve the faith.

00:43:48.820 Now,

00:43:49.320 that's all cultural.

00:43:52.720 I am not qualified

00:43:54.280 and I do not want

00:43:55.540 to stand on and say

00:43:56.440 what the spiritual value

00:43:58.040 of all of this is.

00:44:00.540 It could be a complete,

00:44:02.180 if it was,

00:44:02.800 if the new rite

00:44:04.020 was attacked,

00:44:05.720 if it was an attack

00:44:06.720 on the Episcopal consecration,

00:44:07.920 as many,

00:44:09.160 many people believe.

00:44:11.600 They believe

00:44:12.120 it was an attack.

00:44:13.540 The first,

00:44:14.220 the first of the,

00:44:15.260 of all the sacraments

00:44:16.060 to be changed

00:44:16.540 was the rite

00:44:17.900 of the Episcopal consecration.

00:44:19.860 So,

00:44:20.180 if you're an enemy,

00:44:21.200 you're not going to go

00:44:21.860 for the air

00:44:22.500 of your opponent.

00:44:24.380 You're not going to go

00:44:24.900 for his foot.

00:44:25.980 You're going to go

00:44:26.320 for his heart.

00:44:28.220 What is the heart

00:44:29.100 of the Catholic Church?

00:44:31.360 It's not,

00:44:31.980 don't say

00:44:32.600 it's a blessed sacrament.

00:44:33.600 Of course,

00:44:33.940 it is our Lord.

00:44:35.640 It's not the priesthood.

00:44:36.480 It's the Episcopacy.

00:44:38.520 Because from Episcopacy

00:44:39.720 flows

00:44:40.300 the governing,

00:44:42.960 the sanctifying

00:44:43.800 of the Church.

00:44:47.180 It makes the priests.

00:44:49.460 Priests

00:44:49.860 offer the holy sacrifice

00:44:51.640 of the Mass,

00:44:53.140 confessions,

00:44:54.560 anointing of the sick,

00:44:56.220 confirmation.

00:44:58.340 If I was an enemy

00:44:59.560 of the Church

00:45:00.220 and I had a chance

00:45:01.060 of having a go

00:45:01.660 at the sacraments,

00:45:03.720 I'd have gone straight

00:45:04.420 for that one.

00:45:06.040 And what did they do?

00:45:07.920 Whatever they did,

00:45:08.720 for whatever reason,

00:45:09.820 they felt that

00:45:10.580 after 1700 years

00:45:12.120 or 1500 years,

00:45:13.800 we needed to change

00:45:15.080 the form

00:45:16.600 of the sacrament.

00:45:18.260 Like the words

00:45:19.080 of the consecration

00:45:20.240 of the host,

00:45:20.800 this is my body,

00:45:21.880 the words for the consecration

00:45:23.140 of a bishop,

00:45:23.800 they changed.

00:45:24.800 Put them right out.

00:45:25.720 Never modified them,

00:45:27.000 they were put right out.

00:45:29.400 I don't know,

00:45:30.400 it just smells a bit.

00:45:31.520 I mean,

00:45:31.740 I'm not saying anything

00:45:32.820 but culturally

00:45:33.460 it smells a bit.

00:45:35.140 And it makes you wonder,

00:45:37.140 is the confusion

00:45:38.600 we've got in the Church

00:45:39.380 at the moment,

00:45:40.300 is it because

00:45:41.040 we've got

00:45:42.120 a great confusion?

00:45:44.280 Was the,

00:45:44.940 like a car,

00:45:45.860 you know,

00:45:46.640 was the car,

00:45:47.420 was the car remodelled?

00:45:49.860 It was the same motor

00:45:50.880 put under the hood.

00:45:53.200 Maybe they put the

00:45:54.040 hood,

00:45:54.540 but maybe the motor

00:45:56.780 of a mini minor

00:45:57.940 was put under the,

00:45:58.900 under the hood

00:45:59.460 of a Rolls Royce.

00:46:00.960 I don't know,

00:46:02.440 but it makes you wonder.

00:46:04.940 And I think

00:46:06.760 that's at the bottom

00:46:07.600 really of a lot

00:46:08.580 of the trouble

00:46:09.080 for the,

00:46:09.760 the traditionists

00:46:11.340 who were like SSBXs.

00:46:13.340 Because look,

00:46:15.040 why did Archbishop Lefebvre

00:46:16.760 want to do

00:46:18.100 the consecrations?

00:46:20.700 Why did he want

00:46:21.640 to use the old rite?

00:46:22.900 Why was I asked

00:46:24.100 to be ordained again?

00:46:26.960 It's because

00:46:27.620 there's a malaise

00:46:29.300 in the church.

00:46:30.900 There's a suspicion

00:46:31.700 in the church.

00:46:33.300 Too much has changed.

00:46:34.940 People wonder

00:46:35.480 why have these

00:46:36.240 things changed?

00:46:37.560 I mean,

00:46:37.760 they're talking

00:46:38.140 now in the SSBX,

00:46:39.000 they want more bishops.

00:46:40.520 They won't want

00:46:41.080 a modern bishop

00:46:42.220 to consecrate

00:46:43.460 a bishop for the SSBX.

00:46:45.120 They'll want

00:46:45.580 a traditional bishop

00:46:46.600 to consecrate

00:46:47.900 according to that

00:46:48.680 old rite.

00:46:49.740 It's a wonderful subject

00:46:50.820 and it must have

00:46:51.960 lots and lots

00:46:52.560 of rabbit holes

00:46:53.080 you can go down,

00:46:53.900 but even culturally

00:46:55.140 that should never happen,

00:46:56.480 you would think.

00:46:57.060 But at least

00:46:58.080 the crown jewels,

00:46:58.780 if they are

00:46:59.280 the crown jewels

00:47:00.120 after these eight

00:47:02.380 good bishops die

00:47:04.040 and one of them

00:47:04.520 is a cardinal,

00:47:06.040 then it's still alive

00:47:07.420 and active

00:47:08.420 outside the city

00:47:09.620 structures.

00:47:10.260 Yeah, I presume

00:47:13.520 the cardinal you're

00:47:14.080 referring to

00:47:14.520 is Cardinal Simoni

00:47:15.480 who just gained

00:47:16.980 international fame

00:47:17.920 doing the exorcism

00:47:20.060 prayer in St. Peter's

00:47:21.760 Basilica.

00:47:22.880 But the issue

00:47:24.620 you bring up

00:47:25.020 is actually very serious

00:47:25.960 because I remember

00:47:26.820 well the

00:47:27.580 controversy

00:47:28.800 over the

00:47:30.420 fake baptisms,

00:47:32.000 if you will,

00:47:32.640 that they were,

00:47:33.600 they found

00:47:34.260 in the United States

00:47:35.980 in one diocese,

00:47:37.120 anywhere where the bishop

00:47:37.820 was willing to

00:47:38.620 deal with the subject.

00:47:40.340 The wording

00:47:40.880 in the baptisms

00:47:42.140 that they were doing

00:47:43.300 was not

00:47:44.540 according to

00:47:45.420 the teaching

00:47:45.880 of the church,

00:47:46.760 not

00:47:47.020 I baptize you

00:47:49.020 in the name

00:47:49.380 of the Father

00:47:49.900 and of the Son

00:47:50.580 and of the Holy Spirit.

00:47:51.520 It was,

00:47:52.320 you know,

00:47:52.620 we baptize you

00:47:53.940 or you are,

00:47:55.100 it was some

00:47:55.700 small alteration

00:47:57.420 which then

00:47:58.720 invalidated

00:48:00.360 the baptism.

00:48:01.060 So they had to

00:48:01.880 redo,

00:48:02.640 they had to go

00:48:03.120 and do a search.

00:48:04.660 It was a nightmare

00:48:05.400 but they did it

00:48:06.180 anyway

00:48:06.840 because this issue

00:48:08.900 was so serious,

00:48:10.600 so severe

00:48:11.100 and its implications

00:48:12.460 so severe.

00:48:13.320 But as you said,

00:48:15.340 you're dealing

00:48:16.200 with this

00:48:16.540 from a cultural

00:48:17.080 perspective

00:48:17.600 which is a neat

00:48:19.020 way of doing it

00:48:19.640 because that makes

00:48:20.800 sense from

00:48:21.700 I think most

00:48:22.700 people's perspectives.

00:48:24.060 There are sort

00:48:25.280 of theories

00:48:25.760 of what that

00:48:26.880 means for the

00:48:27.740 sacraments,

00:48:28.440 what that means

00:48:29.120 for everything else.

00:48:30.800 I know when I

00:48:31.840 talk to others

00:48:32.700 about this,

00:48:33.620 some bishops

00:48:34.580 about this,

00:48:35.240 they talk about

00:48:35.980 ecclesia suplet

00:48:37.300 that the church

00:48:38.660 supplies and so

00:48:39.860 on and so forth

00:48:40.320 but those are all

00:48:41.500 discussions way

00:48:42.740 beyond my pay grade

00:48:43.940 and you exclude

00:48:45.200 yourself from them

00:48:45.960 as well.

00:48:47.460 Keep away from

00:48:49.160 all of that

00:48:49.580 but it's an

00:48:50.440 interesting thing.

00:48:51.080 Imagine these

00:48:52.120 last eight bishops

00:48:53.160 in the structures

00:48:54.460 of the church

00:48:55.040 after that you're

00:48:55.720 all into

00:48:56.080 Novus Ordo

00:48:56.820 consecrations.

00:49:00.680 I don't know.

00:49:01.460 It's just a

00:49:02.700 big mystery.

00:49:03.900 We shall see

00:49:04.560 but I want

00:49:05.900 to commend you

00:49:07.160 Father Michael

00:49:07.600 Mary for your

00:49:08.400 courage,

00:49:09.760 your willingness

00:49:10.100 to speak up

00:49:10.860 because one

00:49:11.960 of the few

00:49:12.260 people who

00:49:12.880 are speaking

00:49:14.000 in the midst

00:49:14.480 of this massive

00:49:15.880 confusion in

00:49:16.920 the church

00:49:17.340 and calling it

00:49:19.240 for what it is

00:49:20.100 and so thank

00:49:21.860 you for that.

00:49:22.700 A lot of people

00:49:23.220 would say

00:49:23.760 oh good,

00:49:26.380 I'm not crazy

00:49:27.260 because I thought

00:49:28.320 it was just

00:49:28.740 me.

00:49:29.760 Not crazy,

00:49:30.620 not crazy.

00:49:31.700 It's worth

00:49:32.340 knowing before

00:49:33.500 I left to go

00:49:35.440 to Econ,

00:49:36.360 a lovely old

00:49:37.100 priest who was

00:49:37.580 in the charismatic

00:49:38.120 renewal,

00:49:38.760 a good friend

00:49:39.420 of his,

00:49:40.980 he sat me in

00:49:41.780 front of him

00:49:42.180 for about 20

00:49:43.340 minutes and he

00:49:44.420 said to me

00:49:44.900 again and again,

00:49:46.600 you need

00:49:48.520 medical attention.

00:49:51.200 You need

00:49:52.100 medical attention.

00:49:54.420 He must have

00:49:55.200 said it 40

00:49:55.640 times.

00:49:58.340 Lovely old

00:49:59.120 man and

00:49:59.780 a lovely

00:50:00.220 old priest

00:50:00.840 but yeah,

00:50:03.220 you think

00:50:03.780 you're mad

00:50:04.580 if you have

00:50:04.880 to carry

00:50:05.200 all this

00:50:05.440 by yourself

00:50:05.920 because the

00:50:07.020 implications

00:50:07.500 of all of

00:50:07.960 these things

00:50:08.360 are vast

00:50:09.520 and our

00:50:11.080 very faith

00:50:11.740 is on the

00:50:12.600 line when

00:50:13.920 you start

00:50:15.000 wondering,

00:50:15.460 am I right

00:50:15.900 to believe

00:50:16.380 and be a

00:50:16.840 Catholic?

00:50:17.220 When you

00:50:17.340 hear high

00:50:18.800 people saying

00:50:20.620 such things

00:50:21.340 as all

00:50:22.080 religions are 1.00

00:50:22.700 the same

00:50:23.200 or we don't

00:50:24.060 have the

00:50:24.420 truth.

00:50:24.700 But we

00:50:25.580 go back

00:50:26.040 to the

00:50:26.360 basics and

00:50:26.980 we keep

00:50:27.360 with the

00:50:27.620 basics.

00:50:28.040 So God

00:50:28.520 who art

00:50:29.320 the infallible

00:50:29.880 truth who

00:50:30.360 can neither

00:50:30.740 deceive nor

00:50:31.620 be deceived.

00:50:32.460 I believe

00:50:32.800 all that the

00:50:33.140 Holy Catholic

00:50:33.620 proposes to

00:50:34.420 my belief

00:50:34.920 because thou

00:50:35.840 hast revealed

00:50:36.460 it to her.

00:50:38.100 And that's

00:50:38.500 certainly true

00:50:39.240 right up to

00:50:39.900 our time

00:50:40.360 of the

00:50:40.980 confusion.

00:50:41.640 And my

00:50:42.080 way of

00:50:42.500 looking at

00:50:42.760 it was like

00:50:43.200 this.

00:50:44.120 If you're

00:50:44.340 walking along

00:50:44.820 a road and

00:50:45.340 you don't

00:50:46.360 know where

00:50:46.640 it's going

00:50:47.040 to and

00:50:47.340 there's a

00:50:47.600 dust storm,

00:50:49.280 stay where

00:50:49.760 you are and

00:50:51.160 wait for the

00:50:51.640 dust to settle.

00:50:52.400 It can't be

00:50:52.880 wrong if you

00:50:53.240 stay where you

00:50:53.660 are, even

00:50:54.560 if you can't

00:50:55.060 see very

00:50:55.500 far ahead of

00:50:56.100 you because

00:50:57.220 you're on

00:50:57.480 the right

00:50:57.820 road and

00:50:58.480 don't move

00:50:58.920 from it.

00:50:59.360 That's what I

00:50:59.760 think.

00:51:00.140 So keep

00:51:00.820 with the

00:51:01.080 faith and

00:51:01.820 just stick

00:51:03.780 it out.

00:51:04.480 Nothing can

00:51:05.000 happen.

00:51:05.660 We're here

00:51:06.340 for our

00:51:06.680 Lord and

00:51:07.760 he knows

00:51:08.100 we're here

00:51:08.500 and our

00:51:08.780 lady knows 0.99

00:51:09.260 we're here

00:51:09.780 and all

00:51:11.140 we want

00:51:11.600 is to

00:51:12.120 love them

00:51:12.940 and to

00:51:13.460 serve them.

00:51:14.780 Amen.

00:51:15.700 Father

00:51:16.180 Michael

00:51:16.440 Mary, one

00:51:16.920 more thing

00:51:17.360 if I could

00:51:17.740 ask you,

00:51:18.460 would you

00:51:18.740 give us

00:51:19.020 all your

00:51:19.280 blessing?

00:51:19.620 Amen.

00:51:28.960 Father

00:51:29.440 Michael

00:51:29.720 Mary, thank

00:51:30.200 you so

00:51:30.460 very much

00:51:30.780 for joining

00:51:31.120 us.

00:51:31.440 May God

00:51:31.620 bless you.

00:51:32.000 God bless you.

The John-Henry Westen Show - December 10, 2025

Meet the Traditional Redemptorists who CALLED OUT the Synodal Church

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