In this episode, Pastor John Henry Henry talks with author Nikki Kingsley about her conversion from Christianity to Islam and how she made the decision to leave her conservative Christian upbringing to become a Muslim. She shares her story of how she left her conservative upbringing and how her faith changed her life.
00:03:37.080And I fell in love with her, with her holiness and gentleness.
00:03:41.200And that just kind of touched my heart.
00:03:44.520But again, within the box of Islam, never, ever outside.
00:03:49.940And I continue to be devoted, praying, fasting, doing everything I could.
00:03:56.560The thing with Islam is it's all about you do what you are supposed to do, and then you hope that Allah notices you and he doesn't punish you.
00:04:06.100And as a woman, you rank pretty low because in the Paran, you know, a woman's word has really no value until you have witnesses and the woman needs more witnesses than a man does.
00:04:20.120And so subconsciously, you're always feeling very low in the sequence of things.
00:04:26.180And so when I would pray, I would just beg Allah to notice me living in a very unhappy marriage and that lasted 15 years.
00:04:34.900But it was never, I never, ever, ever, if my wildest dream, ever thought I would leave Islam.
00:04:44.280I'm as shocked as I could ever be that I'm sitting here talking to you.
00:04:52.980My wife was a convert as well, not from Islam, but from evangelical Protestantism.
00:04:58.640And what you just said reminds me of one of her lines.
00:05:01.820uh, she always used to say, you know, she believed I would convert, um, as sure as she was about
00:05:09.280anything. Uh, there was no way that the Catholic church would be right. But anyway, just as you
00:05:15.040said that, yeah, exactly. Your journey saw you move, uh, to the United States. Um, tell us about
00:05:23.800that, um, how, how that happened and how you were led to do that. Cause you didn't do this of your
00:05:29.200own accord? I was in this arranged marriage. The marriage was not all my, I was a real romantic
00:05:35.340growing up, you know, mills and boons, harlequin romances. I believed in my knight in shining
00:05:40.800armor. And unfortunately that did not come true. So at 15 years of marriage, I had two children
00:05:47.960and I was trying very hard to make it work, but it wasn't. I was very unhappy. And at this point
00:05:55.260I was living in the United Arab Emirates. I was in Dubai. And I would tell my parents every year
00:06:01.720when I would see them that I did not want to stay in this marriage. And I was told I was too young.
00:06:08.740My husband was 10 years older than me. And it was always, oh, you're too young. You need to grow up.
00:06:14.000But I was going into a depression. I was suicidal. And I was physically breaking down. I was close
00:06:21.780to a nervous breakdown. I had a son and a daughter, and I would think about what would
00:06:26.820happen to my children if I died. And my husband would always say, you know, oh, the kids will
00:06:32.880just, you know, I'll leave them with my parents in Pakistan. And the thought that my daughter would
00:06:37.760not even have an opportunity, I at least had a great childhood. She would get nothing. She'd
00:06:44.180be shipped back to Pakistan. And I think that's really what kept me alive. And finally, my father
00:06:50.620took notice, and he said, well, what do you want to do? And I said, I want to go to America.
00:06:57.020And that was, I just knew in my heart, if I would come to America, I would be saved. And I didn't
00:07:03.760know what, I just thought freedom. And I used, and I've been to America many times growing up,
00:07:09.820and I have family here. But it was interesting, because my sisters at this point were living in
00:07:15.280Canada. And you would think that the logical thing would be, okay, I'll go to Canada and be there.
00:07:22.160Something in my heart said, not Canada, go to America. And so my aunt and uncle, God bless them,
00:07:29.440were like, yeah, you can come over. And my parents thought I just wanted a vacation. And I knew if I
00:07:36.060ever got out, I was never coming back. And so I was able to get out of the UAE. Now, in the Middle
00:07:46.120East, your husband basically owns you. He had my passport. And it was also, he had the visa to work
00:07:56.540there. So he then was responsible for me. So basically, he could stop me, I couldn't get out
00:08:02.900And leaving with the Islamic law, if the husband calls, says she's running away with my kids, they would stop me at the airport.
00:08:11.540And it was a very stressful time, the way I made it to the airport with my kids.
00:08:19.100And when the plane took off, I just sat there clutching my kids.
00:08:24.040I was scared that if anybody got, they could get on the plane and pull me off the plane or take my kids.
00:08:30.840and if they took my kids, there's no way I would leave. And so by the grace of God, I did get out
00:08:37.980and I arrived in New York in 1999 with my two kids. And my son was six. My daughter was 11.
00:08:45.680I had no work experience. I had a couple hundred dollars. I couldn't drive. I had never lived
00:08:53.500alone. I didn't. I came to this big country with no idea what I was going to do. But I knew when
00:08:59.920I got off that plane that I was never leaving and I was going to do whatever it took to make
00:09:07.260sure that my kids had a better life and they would get a college education. They wouldn't end up the
00:09:13.420way I did. And by the grace of God, you know, my uncle helped me and I ended up getting a job,
00:09:20.820got my visa situation figured out. Kids started school and everything kind of settled. And
00:09:27.740throughout. I was devoted to Allah. I prayed five times a day. I loved God. My parents were really,
00:09:37.360when I look back, I feel that I learned the gospel without knowing it was the gospel because of the
00:09:44.280way my parents were. My parents were the kindest, most charitable, loving people you would ever meet.
00:09:53.060And if I, if you ever criticize anybody, my mother would get so upset and she'd say, you can never criticize anyone. You don't know their story. You never, it was always the goodness that was instilled. And when I read the Bible, it's like, I learned all this. It's just Jesus's name wasn't there.
00:10:10.660So I was devoted. At this point, I thought my parents weren't good enough Muslims because I was praying five times a day, and I would tell them they're not practicing it right, and they need to do this.
00:10:22.980I had become a Sunni Muslim. My parents are Shia. I had become a Sunni. I was practicing all that.
00:10:29.160But the driving force was not anything other than I loved God. I wanted to please Him, and I wanted Him to take care of me and my children.
00:10:39.080Very long story, John Henry. We could go on for hours. I'm going to cut out a lot of things. But I started a new life and I got a job. I was working. I'm practicing. And what happened was my prayers started to change. I was not in a free country. I didn't have to beg Allah to save me. I was free. And I started to pray and ask Allah, who are you?
00:11:06.920And this became this burning fire in my heart.
00:12:03.980And then you hope that at the end, you end up in heaven, and heaven is the fulfillment of all your worldly desires. So you get everything. You don't have to work, you don't have to do, and you can just rest. You're there, you know, the rivers of milk and honey and all those things.
00:12:24.080and but I wasn't satisfied with it I knew in my heart somehow I just knew there was more
00:12:31.000and I didn't have it and so I would pray and when I prayed I would just see a wall in front of me
00:12:37.420and I would get silence I would hear nothing I would pray and pray I would be on my prayer mat
00:12:44.760every day at night prostrate head on the floor saying Allah who are you I want to know you
00:12:52.040and I would get nothing and I was so frustrated so I started looking for books I thought okay
00:12:58.260I'll find a book you know that would lead me to grow in this faith and I couldn't find anything
00:13:06.380what I found was the life of Muhammad I found the terrors of the grave I found punishments
00:13:15.760in hell. But I didn't find anything that would help me grow in my relationship. And I found
00:13:23.140poetry. But that was it. And that didn't help me in any way. So I was really frustrated.
00:13:30.320And finally, I happened to go to New York with my kids. And one of the places on TripAdvisor
00:13:39.100was St. Patrick's Cathedral. And the only reason, the only reason I walked up those steps was
00:13:46.740because it was TripAdvisor stop, supposed to be this, you know, monument in New York. You have to
00:13:52.920see it. And as I stepped in, I was praying and I said to Allah, please forgive me. Don't strike me
00:14:00.020because I'm going into this church because all these Christians, you know, they go to hell
00:14:05.120because they believe in a son of God so please forgive me and I as I walked in the first thing
00:14:11.980I saw was a picture a stained glass picture of Jesus and it was his face and it looked like his
00:14:20.360eyes were alive and they were piercing right into me and it made me so uncomfortable and I walked
00:14:27.520around and you know I started to walk around the the cathedral but the whole time I felt he was
00:14:35.240following me he was behind me and his eyes were piercing right into me and I walked around and
00:14:42.480near the exit there's a gift shop and I was there and the kids were looking at something and in my
00:14:48.160heart I'm saying Allah forgive me I'm nearly out you know you could see the sun was shining or
00:14:54.020coming in and I'm going to leave and don't, you know, be upset with me. And as I was standing
00:15:00.900there, completely lost in those thoughts, I heard a woman's whisper and it was so gentle
00:15:10.700and it was so sweet. And she whispered, come back, come back. And I turned around and there
00:15:18.720was no one there. And I thought I'm imagining things. So I go back to, you know, talking to
00:15:25.280the kids and suddenly I hear it again, come back, come back. And this time when I heard it, there
00:15:32.320was a knowing that came with it. And I knew it was Mary who was talking to me. I knew where she
00:15:39.940was calling me. There was a chapel in the back. It's Mary's chapel. She was calling me there.
00:15:47.140And when I had walked by, I had no idea.
00:15:49.340I didn't take a tour of St. Patrick's.
00:16:08.320I had loved her for all these years as a Muslim.
00:16:11.080I would read Sura Mariam every day for years.
00:16:14.480And so I couldn't just walk out. So I went back and I walked into her chapel and I stood there in the back. And there's this beautiful statue of Mary there. And all these people are kneeling. And I thought, oh, my gosh, they are so reverent. This is beautiful, but they're going to hell because they're kneeling in front of a statue.
00:16:34.960And I refused to even sit there. I just stood there and I waited for a while thinking she would say something and I heard nothing. I left and I was in New York City for a couple of days and I had to go back every single day I was there just to breathe in that cathedral because I had experienced a peace I had never experienced anywhere.
00:16:59.880it pierced my heart and my soul. And so I would just go in there just to soak that in
00:17:06.880for the few days I was there. And I didn't hear anything more. And I left. And life went back to
00:17:14.400normal. Ramadan came, and I was fasting. And I just thought that was something nice. For whatever
00:17:20.000reason, Maryam chose to speak to me in a Christian church, which I didn't understand. But I didn't
00:17:26.600think more about it. Well, this must have been around springtime and, you know, months go by
00:17:32.300and I forget about it. And then it is December. And I know it was the first week of December
00:17:38.160and I was sleeping and it was the early hours of the morning. And I know because the sun was
00:17:45.480starting to shine in, I was kind of half awake, half asleep. It felt like somebody had gently
00:17:50.800touched me and kind of I had come out of the deep sleep so I was half awake half asleep
00:17:56.500and Jesus and Mary were at my bedside I cannot really put into words what that was like
00:18:07.560I really it felt like heaven had come into my room and did you know it was Jesus and Mary kind
00:18:16.160of the way you knew it was our lady calling you i knew very clearly it was them um mary it was a
00:18:24.620side profile and mary had the veil they were both facing each other and they were like right at my
00:18:33.000bedside and jesus had the crown of thorns and she had the veil on my body was on the bed
00:18:41.320but it's like at the same time my spirit jumped up and I it was this instant recognition of who
00:18:51.360they were like my long-lost friends that we had been separated for my whole life and they we were
00:18:59.260finally together we were united and I jumped my spirit jumped up and embraced them and rejoiced
00:19:06.660I mean, the joy was beyond what I can put into words, and we embraced, and all this
00:19:17.740communication did not happen in words.
00:20:29.460And I couldn't understand, because at first I'm thinking I had a dream, but it was so vivid and so real that I physically felt I had this encounter.
00:20:41.580And my mom was visiting at that time, and I, you know, had my coffee, and I was telling her I had this dream, and I, you know, I was still in that daze.
00:20:52.440And my mom said, well, it's Christmas, so you're probably thinking about it, you know, that's what dreams were.
00:20:58.540And I said, yeah, probably. And then I just knew that that is not it. This had happened to me and I had encountered Jesus and Mary. And my Muslim mind was completely blown. I didn't know what to think of this.
00:21:14.340I'm going to get in real trouble if I don't ask you this. So there are so many Catholics who are really in love with our Lord and his Blessed Mother. And like you, as you were asking, let me know you, let me know you, wanting that relationship. They too want that. And so I have the real privilege of talking to you. And I can ask you for them and for myself, what did they look like?
00:21:40.020um because we have all this you know thing in our in our imaginations i think the um passion
00:21:47.120of the christ mel gibson's has really affected a lot of people but can you describe what they
00:21:51.740looked like it is really difficult to describe because after this i have had dreams and you know
00:22:00.880where with mary and jesus and it's not like the features are so clear like i'm looking at you and
00:22:09.420i can just see exactly how you look they're kind of blurry i don't know how else to say it
00:22:14.900it's kind of like blurry but this the overwhelming senses of love is what comes through like it is
00:22:26.380the love is so powerful that you kind of fade away in the look and with our lady there is just a sense
00:22:36.500of such a gentleness about her that it just melts you and you you know so when i say i saw
00:22:45.380it was like on the side it was like a um a side profile of a very fuzzy kind of
00:22:53.860look but there was the love just takes over and that's all you can experience i've had one dream
00:23:02.720where it was like a divine mercy today, I can say that that's kind of what it was,
00:23:09.080where Jesus was there, and I saw his hand come out of the light, but the light was so bright and
00:23:18.940white. It's not the light like I've ever seen on earth, that I could look at the light, it didn't
00:23:26.740blind me, but it was so bright. And out of the light were rays of love that you would just die.
00:23:34.160Like I started to, I guess, go into ecstasy in my dreams. You can't take it. The love
00:23:41.480is the overwhelming sense in every dream or encounter I've had. So, you know, if I had to
00:23:51.380guess maybe if you get let me show you a picture i guess i can show you this is the closest for me
00:23:57.780i have this picture of jesus and i feel if i were to say then that would be the closest okay
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00:24:40.100texting LifeSiteNews to 50155. May God bless you. You were saying before that this was sort of the
00:24:49.980first encounter. Let's go back there. And so it happens, you're confronted, your mom says it's
00:24:57.700probably Christmas time, don't worry. And you know there's something more. Then what? Because you
00:25:03.880you then have other encounters and you're still Muslim at this point. You're not Catholic nor
00:25:11.420even thinking about Catholic yet. I didn't know what Catholic was. To me, all Christians fall in
00:25:16.480the same category and all Christians go to hell because they believe in a son of God. I mean,
00:25:21.580I had a very simple way of looking at that and including all the other religions. I just thought
00:25:28.020Islam is the only truth. Now, I had questions about Islam that didn't fit right for me in my
00:25:34.460heart, because I believe God is love, but it didn't fit in the Islamic teachings. And so somehow I had
00:25:45.040eliminated pages of the Quran that didn't sit right with me about killing and hurting, because
00:25:50.220like, it must be the interpretation. God could not really mean that. Like, why would you hurt
00:25:55.980another person. But I did believe that at the end, at the end of time, Christians would go to hell
00:26:03.120because blasphemy is the greatest sin. So in my Muslim mind, this was like made completely no
00:26:10.620sense to me. I had the dream, but it didn't just stop there. What started to happen right after it
00:26:17.760is I felt this presence came over me physically after that dream. And it was like this tangible
00:26:25.420presence of God, like energy, and I could feel it. And it was all over me. And it went with me
00:26:32.200everywhere. And I was pointed out every church on the drive to work. I had done this drive for
00:26:40.940years. I never noticed any of the churches on the way because I was so disinterested or I was blind.
00:26:48.100But from that dream, everything changed. This presence is there. I hear every time I'm driving,
00:26:55.000I'm shown every Christian church I passed. And it's like this voice would say, look,
00:27:01.120and my attention would be drawn and I would see the cross. And I would think, how did I not know
00:27:06.780there are so many churches here? Like I drive by all, but I had never seen them until that day.
00:27:13.900And from that day, all, you know, I'd go into a store, I would be shown Christian, any items that
00:27:20.400were there. And it became like a haunting for me because I'm Muslim. And I thought God is surely
00:27:26.360going to strike me like, why am I paying attention to this? But the confusion was, it was God that I
00:27:33.780felt was with me. So how can it be God, but then God would be angry with me because he's the one
00:27:39.880showing it to me. So I was just very confused. And Jesus in the Quran is a prophet. He is not divine.
00:27:49.020um Mary does have you know is a virgin she gives birth to the prophet Esau you know the
00:27:55.420Annunciation is in the Quran you know the angel comes to Mary so that's there but he's not divine
00:28:01.960he just has a gift of healing and he's a special prophet I started having these dreams like the
00:28:07.620other one I told you where you know it's Jesus in this light he's not coming to me like a dead
00:28:14.180prophet coming in a dream. These dreams were real encounters because I physically would experience
00:28:22.080it. And he was not coming like a human. It was God. And that's where my mind was just really
00:28:30.480struggling. And I got angry with Allah. I said, Allah, I've been praying to you for so long to
00:28:36.140reveal who you are. And if you send me Muhammad, send me Ali, send me, you know, all the imams,
00:28:43.380why are you sending me Jesus it makes no sense to me and Mary like this is Christian why is this
00:28:51.760happening to me and I went through a real hard time I mean I was tormented because I was scared
00:28:57.640of being you know punished by Allah but at the same time I couldn't deny it's God I had never
00:29:05.120had a doubt it was God and then our lady the Virgin Mary she would I would hear her speak to
00:29:13.020me in my heart and lead me to call me to places. And it was like these breadcrumbs put before me.
00:29:19.220But the one thing I have to say, as a Muslim, you live in fear. You have no freedom to think.
00:29:26.940Even if you think something, you're scared you're going to be struck by God.
00:29:31.460But these encounters, there was no fear. And there was always an invitation. There was freedom.
00:29:38.040I could choose or not. And so when I would be called to go to a certain place, and that was
00:29:44.520always Christian, I could say no. And I didn't feel that I would be struck or punished or anything.
00:29:51.560I felt it was truly my decision to do or not. And I followed every breadcrumb because there was this
00:30:00.000pull that there was something more there and I wanted it. And I was seeking truth because when
00:30:07.020I would pray, I would say to God, I want to know the truth and I know I don't have it. I don't have
00:30:13.040the fullness of truth yet. I knew that and I want it. And I believed in an objective truth. I didn't
00:30:19.360believe I had my truth and you have, I believe there was one truth that was divine and I wanted
00:30:25.360it. And so I followed all these breadcrumbs until I couldn't do it anymore. I was exhausted. I didn't
00:30:33.180do any research on the computer. This was between me and God. This was the struggle. I was not going
00:30:40.020to go on the internet and be pulled into anything. So it was my personal struggle. And finally, I
00:30:45.760said, Jesus, I can't do this anymore. You need to stop doing this. Why do you keep showing up? I
00:30:51.220don't understand. And so I said, I'll make a deal with you. I will come to your church. I will go
00:30:57.620through the full service. You will tell me what you want from me, and then please leave me alone.
00:31:03.180because i can't do this anymore and i thought you know the church is his home so i'll go there and
00:31:08.680he'll tell me and so i picked a chair down down the road it was christmas time again and there
00:31:14.820was a midnight service they had a sign up and again to me i didn't care a church was a church
00:31:20.500and so i went for a midnight service i took part in everything they passed a tray around the pastor
00:31:27.360did reading singing candles everything and i even drank the little juice cup and you know like i'm
00:31:33.120doing it all because now you're going to tell me what you want. And at the end, we all got candles.
00:31:39.540We processed out singing. And I stood in the parking lot. It was like one in the morning.
00:31:45.640Like, this is it? Where are you? Because you weren't there. And this sentence came from my
00:31:53.820heart. The one who is calling me was not there. I'm like, what does that even mean? I don't even
00:31:59.560know what this means. Why am I feeling this? Why are these words coming to me? But I felt empty.
00:32:06.260So on a physical level, it was a beautiful service. Everything was great. But in my spirit,
00:32:12.960it was empty. And I didn't know what that meant. And I didn't know where to go. So I said to Jesus,
00:32:18.320I came to your church, I did my part, and you weren't there. So I don't know where to go anymore.
00:32:23.320and there was a lady who I had been sharing this with at work and for some reason I picked her to
00:32:31.100tell her I was having these dreams and she would always say to me you're so blessed you're so
00:32:37.040blessed I'm like I'm not blessed I don't want this then she gave me these beads and said I
00:32:42.720don't know what to do for you but I feel I'm supposed to give this to you and it was a Christmas
00:32:47.100rosary that she said had been blessed and all and I took it because as Muslims we have beads and
00:32:53.140you know that was fine so I told her her name is Debbie and I said Debbie I went to church because
00:33:01.160she had been telling me come to my church come to I said and she said so how was it and I said
00:33:06.620he wasn't there and she said what do you mean he wasn't there I said Jesus wasn't there and she
00:33:12.660said okay you need to come to my church and I said why is your church any better and she said
00:33:17.880just come to my church. And at this point, I am so frustrated. I'm tired. I want this to stop.
00:33:24.540I said, okay, I'll come to your church, but no service. Just take me. We'll see if he's there.
00:33:30.140And so she did. And it was a Roman Catholic church, St. Ignatius Roman Catholic church.
00:33:37.060And we pulled up. I thought another church, hopefully he's there. To me, it didn't mean
00:33:42.240anything. And we walked in and I took a breath and I said, he's here. I can feel him. I could
00:33:52.060tangibly feel his presence. It reminded me, it was like that presence that came over me after
00:34:00.380the dream that was God. I felt that same physical, tangible presence there. And I said, I found his
00:34:07.880house. Now I'm going to come here and he's going to tell me what he wants. And so I started going
00:34:14.000to that church and I would sit alone when no one was there. And I would argue with the crucifix
00:34:20.640and tell him he's not the son of God. And now I'd found a place where I could come argue with him.
00:34:26.160And so I'd show up every single day and I would do this argument and then I would tell him about
00:34:33.360my day and I'd spend an hour or two and I was in sales so I could do my own schedule.
00:34:39.700My schedule always had Jesus on there every single day. I did not miss a day except Sunday
00:34:46.860where people came and I was so upset so I'd show up on Monday. I didn't realize that Jesus had
00:34:52.880become a friend to me because I was there every day with him. I was spending so much time with
00:34:57.440him, to tell him he's not the son of God. That's what I came for. And then, you know, share my day.
00:35:05.680I did this for months. I think it was six or eight months. I'd be there every day doing this
00:35:11.080and hearing nothing, but feeling, I felt a peace that I would, that I never experienced anywhere.
00:35:19.060And finally, God had enough. And I was sitting doing the same thing. You are not the son of God.
00:35:25.960And that day, it was empty that there was no one in the church but me.
00:40:39.660And my life was completely transformed in that instant.
00:40:43.700Total moment of grace, so undeserved, not because I was so great,
00:40:49.240I did great things or anything, just his mercy.
00:40:52.160Was the understanding that it was the Catholic Church immediate?
00:41:22.160when you know the truth it's really hard to live the truth and as a muslim i had to when i walked
00:41:28.060out of the church knowing truth but still a muslim i had to walk that walk to the catholic church
00:41:36.400and my parents were devastated and um our conversation it was so painful and when i
00:41:45.360told them you know they tried to talk me out of it and they said you can go to church why do you
00:41:51.880have to be change your religion just go to church that's fine and i said i found the truth how am i
00:41:58.640gonna live a lie like that would be deception i cannot i have to openly believe and live
00:42:05.240this truth and so i i decided you know it was a journey but i joined our cia and when i started
00:42:15.020to go through it, whatever I would learn, somehow I think I had an infusion of knowledge. I don't
00:42:23.560know what else to call it. And I would be like, I already know this. I know this is true. And
00:42:30.440some of the dreams and these visions that I've had, I didn't know. But when I studied or went
00:42:38.300through RCIA, I had already been shown it in a dream. Like the priesthood, the power of the
00:42:44.500priesthood, that it is Jesus. I had a dream and I saw a mass being celebrated. And it was a private
00:42:52.580mass. There were like 10 people. I was there. And it was the priest was there. And then during
00:42:58.500consecration, the priest disappeared and Jesus was there. And I was so shocked at the whole thing.
00:43:07.500And I told my RCIA teacher that you won't believe I had this dream. And this is what I started.
00:43:14.100She looked at me. She's like, that's what we believe. I said, we do? I didn't know that, but I have been shown it. So I know the Catholic Church is the truth. The fullness of the truth is in the Catholic Church. Do we have problems? Yes, but it's still the truth.
00:43:34.520The struggle with your family, what did you do with your children at this point?
00:43:38.300So my children were teenagers. And I told them about, you know, I have been having these dreams and all. And both the kids were happy. They're like, yes, because they did not like the Quran teacher. They hated the whole thing. So they were like, yes, mom, let's go to church. That's better.
00:43:58.040so my son was 16 he decided to go through our cia with me and came into the church with me and that
00:44:06.400was i told him he didn't have to and he said he wanted to so he was he was very happy to come into
00:44:12.980the church my daughter uh got baptized in a non-denominational first and then she came into
00:44:19.500the Catholic Church again, you know, by her own choice. And actually, it's amazing. You know,
00:44:27.640I thought when Jesus saved me, it was all about me. He came to save me. This is it. That's all
00:44:34.040there is to it. But Jesus had a much bigger plan because he got my kids. I have two sisters. Both
00:44:42.040my sisters had their own experiences. They came into the Catholic Church. My dad started seeing
00:44:48.820jesus on his prayer mat when he was praying the face of jesus started appearing now he didn't
00:44:55.620you know he wasn't well and all but in his end days he asked for a picture of jesus on his
00:45:02.020for his bedroom and this is the picture from my dad's room and i sent this to him and so
00:45:10.560that happened and um and there are you know my brother-in-law should what likes to go with my
00:45:18.840sister to adoration because he says he just feels peace and so jesus has just kind of invaded the
00:45:26.200family so you know we think oh yeah you know our plans and our um ideas are so small and god's plans
00:45:35.940are so much bigger he he wants to save the world he does and he's used you in a very special way
00:45:43.140not only to reach your family your children but also to reach countless people through your books
00:45:47.640through your witness through your speaking your story is very very powerful what do you pray for
00:45:52.660your brothers and sisters who are uh muslim who are still muslim it's it's very difficult there's
00:45:59.300not a lot of evangelization uh directed that way at least not publicly because well for one it's
00:46:05.400illegal in most of the Muslim countries, punishable by death even. What are your hopes for them? I know
00:46:12.960your story's already touched many, but how would you tell Catholics to approach the question of
00:46:22.440any kind of evangelization of Muslims? When I was a Muslim, if somebody came to me and said,
00:46:29.760let me tell you, let me invite you, come to my church. And I would pretty much walk away and
00:46:36.160maybe not even associate with that person because I feel, you know, they're going to hell. I'm not
00:46:42.300interested. And that would be it. But there are, that's where I was. And maybe that's why God had
00:46:49.320to do something so dramatic as to come to me the way he did. But there are some, some that are,
00:46:55.880are more open to it. And I think if there is anything that we can do is we should start with
00:47:02.780something that we have in common, which is Our Lady, which is a safe place to talk about her
00:47:11.160and maybe talk about, you know, it's I didn't know that Mariam is so loved in Islam because we love
00:47:19.440her too, and maybe give them a miraculous medal, because that is something, you know,
00:47:25.980well, we says mother of God, which they wouldn't go for. But just the idea of Mary is something
00:47:33.580that can open the door. You know, if we can get something to at least crack the door open,
00:47:41.400then when Mary comes in, she will lead you to her son. She did that to me. She started,
00:47:46.760But she led me to her son. So I think that and also maybe talking about Our Lady of Zaytun, you know, who appeared the apparition in Egypt or in Syria, Our Lady of Sufaina, I think is what's what it's called, the city and St. Charbel in Lebanon.
00:48:07.500I mean, so many Muslims go there and get healed, you know, with the saints and Our Lady, I think, is a place to start.
00:48:15.380If we start with Jesus, that's a complete, he's not the son of God, because there's nothing to talk about.
00:48:21.580But they'll talk about Our Lady, and I think that that would be a good place.
00:48:27.380But I would like to say something, John Henry.
00:48:30.380You know, we talk about evangelizing others, and of course we should and all that.
00:48:35.640But I really think the crisis that we're facing is within our own church.
00:48:42.180We're facing a problem within our church.
00:48:46.540We can't give somebody what we don't have.
00:49:03.680look at their women, look at, I'm making general statements, but that was the impression of the
00:49:08.840West. And they, they compromise their faith. Their faith is weak. There's, you know, they wear a
00:49:15.600bracelet or, or a cross or whatever, but look at their life. And here we are Muslims. We fast 30
00:49:21.940days, you know, no food, no water. And we pray five times a day and what they go to church on
00:49:28.400Sunday and, you know, so there was that thing. So we don't really witness really well. Sometimes
00:49:36.720words aren't necessary because a lot is being said by the way we're living our faith. I think
00:49:42.840that if we can truly, instead of looking outside, we first begin with inside our own home, in our
00:49:51.680own room, within our own heart, and really open work there. Do you really believe that Jesus
00:50:00.600is the Son of God who came to save you and gave his life up for you? And are you really living
00:50:08.660like somebody who has received this immense gift of salvation? Or is Jesus something you take off,
00:50:18.060take them from the shelf on a Sunday if you're lucky? Or do you just take him for granted? Oh,
00:50:23.460yeah, Jesus heals, you know, I have a Savior. Because I think that is mockery of what a
00:50:29.520Christian should be. And if we can truly witness, if we first believe, we will witness, and it'll
00:50:38.580be obvious to the world. You know, Christian men are failing to be men, sadly, but Muslim men
00:50:46.760are living what their religion teaches, whatever that may be, but at least they're living it.
00:50:52.580They're following it to the teeth. The men are in the mosque leading their children. You know,
00:50:58.320is religion left to the women, especially in the Catholic Church, sadly. If I go to a Protestant
00:51:04.160church, I see more men there. Not so much in the Catholic Church, in daily mass, or, you know,
00:51:10.940to really fight that battle on the knees first, because the interior battle is where Satan really
00:51:20.080gets us, you know, with distractions or compromise or, you know, you start compromising the gospel.
00:51:26.860St. Paul says, you know, that be cursed if you change one word of the gospel. We can't rewrite
00:51:35.780the gospel to fit our sin. And I think if we do that, the evangelization will happen because we
00:51:43.240will witness to the joy of the gospel. We are experiencing a battle royale, if you will,
00:51:49.540in the Catholic Church. Not only, it is true what you say, first of all, with regard to
00:51:55.220individual spirituality, it's very true. The lack, in some ways we all lack, because if we really
00:52:02.820understood, if we really appreciated what we have and who we are in Christ, that would transform
00:52:10.720our lives in a way it would be hard to even understand. But just simply, if you believe
00:52:16.900that Christ is truly present in the blessed sacrament, if you believe that he's there and
00:52:20.480he offers himself to you every day, what kind of thing could keep you from mass daily? Forget about
00:52:25.920just Sundays. But beyond that individual and personal need to change, which is there for all
00:52:33.880of us and very, very many, particularly in the church, there is an institutional crisis right
00:52:39.780now in the church. This concept that you mentioned about trying to change the gospel, it's particular
00:52:44.840around the embrace of homosexuality, which is an abomination to our Lord. It's very well known.
00:52:51.460Is that something that the Muslims, I always thought, gee, you know, especially with what the church is doing right now with regard to this seeming embrace of homosexuality against the scriptures, against everything everybody knows about God, the latest thing to come out of the Vatican, some kind of reinterpretation of Sodom as this sin against, of not welcoming the immigrant.
00:53:14.460Is that something that Islam sort of points to and says, see, there is, I believe they refer to the West as the great Satan or Christianity as such.
00:53:24.720Is that something that is a counterexample of them to the truth?
00:53:28.360Yes, on the surface. But if you see what's happening is that we see the LGBTQ movement teaming up with the Islamic movement right now.
00:53:45.120But in truth, Islam, you know, we here in the Muslim countries, they'll throw you off the rooftop if you are gay.
00:53:53.080but here because the cause is to tear down order then they team up but to answer your question
00:54:03.380in islam homosexuality is a sin punishable by death the reality though in action in what
00:54:15.320really goes on and I've lived in Pakistan and the Middle East and sadly it's rampant there
00:54:23.580and if you've heard of the dancing boys of Afghanistan and you know in northern Pakistan
00:54:30.500having little boy sex slaves is very common and homosexuality is also pretty prevalent in the
00:54:40.840Middle East. But technically in the Quran, so it's all undercover. It's not happening openly
00:54:47.380as it is in the West, but it's very much there. And a blind eye is turned, you know, to it like
00:54:54.620in Afghanistan, it's part of the culture. Even among devout Muslims? Or how is this
00:54:59.220supposed to work with their faith? In devout Muslims, somehow they have this
00:55:05.660life that they live on the side, and they have these relationships, and then they'll go pray
00:55:13.140five times a day. How that they reconcile it, I don't know. But it's very much there. And
00:55:20.500personally, living in the Middle East, I have seen that. Or also men sexually harassing women.
00:55:28.840I narrowly escaped it a couple of times myself there.
00:55:34.000And these are Muslim men that go to the mosque and pray five times a day and carry the tusbe
00:55:40.200in their hand and, you know, do all that.
00:55:44.320That's shocking because you were a Muslim woman.
00:55:47.580I figured Christian women are to be used or whatever, but even Muslim women wouldn't
00:55:55.500Now, sexual abuse is so common there. And now a non-Muslim woman falls even lower. So, you know, you have the grooming gangs in England now that you hear about, you know, they go after the white girls because their value is like an animal. They're regarded so little.
00:56:18.640but even as a muslim woman when i was in pakistan and i ended up being in in a village
00:56:25.500and i had a chather on you know it's just like this sheet like you're all covered and the way
00:56:32.480i was looked at i'll never forget how scared i was because it was like wild animals looking that
00:56:39.100if they could get their hands on you they'd rip you to shreds and you know so there are things
00:56:47.200I've personally experienced. Does that mean every Muslim is that? Of course not. Does it mean every
00:56:53.180husband is an abuser? Of course not. But it is happening quite a bit there, especially when the
00:57:01.520religion says, oh, you shouldn't. And it's that rampant. Right now, what's going on in the world
00:57:09.800with regard to Iran, I know that's very, it's all over the place. Is there any understanding that
00:57:17.180you have about it, given your background and your newfound faith? Any insights you can give us there
00:57:23.980that you might have? Because, I mean, it's being painted in some ways as it's radical Islam that
00:57:29.480we're fighting, but there's all sorts of nonsense about what's going on there. So just wondering if
00:57:34.600you had any insights into that. I really can't speak much to the political part of it, but in
00:57:40.480general, I think we cannot be naive about what Islam teaches. And again, I'll say this, not every
00:57:49.580Muslim is violent, of course not. You know, I know so many, obviously my own family, that are not
00:57:57.040violent, that want to live peacefully, that want to practice their religion peacefully. But there
00:58:03.200is the political arm of Islam, and they want to further the cause of Islam, and they want
00:58:10.200Sharia law, and they want caliphate, they want Islam to be the religion of the world.
00:58:29.060So it is about taking over and bringing Islam. And the way they do it, if one man can have four wives and the four wives can have, I don't know, 40 children, whatever the number is, they're obviously growing much faster than in the Western world where, you know, barely having one child.
00:58:50.040So just by sheer numbers, they're growing. And that is what they want. And they believe in that, in that faith. And that's what they want. And I don't think that we can be so naive as to say, oh, no, it's not real. It's not happening. You can't bury your head in the ground.
00:59:09.040We can look in Germany. You can look at mass migration, what that has done to the country.
00:59:16.000And we may think that, oh, that would never be because I would never do that. You have to
00:59:21.680understand you're dealing with a whole different mindset and a religion that is actually propagating
00:59:28.260that, that's driving that. And you have to face that and you have to deal with it. There's a lot
00:59:35.360of talk about love and acceptance and welcoming people and all, but I don't know if somebody
00:59:43.100comes knocking on your door and you don't know them, then you just open your home up
00:59:48.100and say, yeah, come on in, live with me, and here's my family, and who does that?
00:59:53.960You know, you do, Jesus says you have to be wise as a serpent and innocent as a dove,
01:00:00.580And I think that the Western world has to really read up objectively what Islam teaches and what is its goal, and face it and deal with it accordingly, not with this, you know, fantasy idea. It's just about peace, because the results are not showing you. By their fruits, you will know them.
01:00:23.100Nikki, you've been very generous with your time. I have one more question for you because you didn't mention it when you were mentioning the apparitions of Our Lady. I thought you were going to mention it first, but the apparition of Our Lady of Fatima. Now, Fatima is a very special name to Muslims. Tell us why that is. And what are your thoughts there?
01:00:39.500Fatima was the beloved daughter of the Prophet Muhammad. And of course, with that name and the princess there who, you know, she was Muslim, and that's why Fatima was named what it was after her.
01:00:56.280I do believe that Our Lady is going to be the one who is going to play a key role in bringing Muslims to Jesus, because it's to Jesus through Mary, and that we're going to see happen.
01:01:11.120And, of course, Fatima with the name means a lot.
01:01:19.460And Archbishop Fulton Sheen said those who love Mary will one day come to know her son.
01:01:25.360There's no way you can escape that. So I do think, you know, Fatima, Zaytun, Safina, you know, even in Ephesus, there are people who make pilgrimages, Muslims go there and reference this where Our Lady lived.
01:01:42.640So there is a tremendous, she is the common denominator, and I do believe that she is going to be the bridge.
01:01:51.800And how she's going to do it, I don't know, but if anyone can do it, I know her lady can.
01:01:56.880Beautiful. Nikki Kingsley, thank you so much for being with us.