In this episode, Dr. Marie Meany joins us to talk about her experience with infertility and her new book, "When Expecting Doesn't Happen: Turning Infertility into a Journey of Hope." She shares her story of infertility and how she turned it into a journey of hope.
00:02:00.040We're turning the child into a commodity, and the child is always a gift.
00:02:16.940And the difficulty about a gift is that we cannot force it.
00:02:20.260And it's terribly hard to understand, you know, why sometimes this is not working out.
00:02:24.020But we're not doing anybody any favor by sort of forcing it and thereby actually sinning against, grievously against the child.
00:02:35.620Even then, you know, once the child is there, you know, of course, we should love it.
00:02:39.360And I'm sure that lots of IVF parents are wonderful parents, you know, leaving aside the nature of the conception.
00:02:44.540I think the real kind of medical method that should help them is one that helps them have a child naturally, not replace them, which is what IVF is doing.
00:02:57.780There has been an explosion of infertility of late, and that trend looks like it's going to continue.
00:03:04.100You ever wonder what you're supposed to say with two people experiencing infertility or what you can do if you are?
00:03:09.920Well, we've got an expert with us, someone who both has experienced infertility for some nine years of her marriage.
00:03:16.260And she's now got a child, but she's a doctor of philosophy as well.
00:04:14.180So, Marie, I've actually known you for many, many years, but it's been many years since we've been able to speak.
00:04:21.600You've now written this book on infertility.
00:04:25.060Tell us, what led you to write this book, and what motivated you to bring it out right now?
00:04:34.020You know, we suffered from infertility for many years.
00:04:36.100Once we got married, we weren't expecting any problems, and it hit us as a big surprise that it was difficult.
00:04:43.100And it also surprised me at how painful it was.
00:04:46.920You know, I didn't expect it to be so heart-wrenching.
00:04:49.580Now, not everybody experiences it as badly as that.
00:04:52.280There are basically three groups of people, though, those who don't mind at all, those for whom it's, you know, it's a suffering, it's a burden.
00:04:58.080And those who are absolutely crushed by it, and I was one of them.
00:05:00.700And I know a lot of other people who are also crushed by this thing.
00:05:05.580And though my husband and I always accepted the teaching of the church and found it, you know, very helpful, I felt that there's nothing to help me just go getting day by day by day through this with not knowing whether we'd ever have children.
00:05:18.560And I thought I wanted to write something for couples to help them, give them a sense that what they're going through is not unusual, and they're not going crazy, that this is really difficult.
00:05:31.800Also avoid the kind of dead ends that I ended up in while trying to do the best thing, of course, and also helping friends and family, because often those surrounding the couple suffering from infertility don't know what to do or say and end up doing and saying exactly the wrong thing.
00:05:48.300So I made one chapter in that book is addressed to them, and we'll hopefully help them navigate these difficult waters.
00:05:56.340Definitely. And I think, especially since we hear the numbers of people experiencing infertility is going up, we want to be ready for this, because this is happening.
00:06:06.620A lot of people are already in the situation.
00:06:09.080And maybe we can start with, what do you say?
00:06:41.320Even if you have up your sleeve some great medical method, or you think you just have the right word for that person, better not to say anything.
00:06:49.500So many people are already talking to one about it, and one just wants a little bit of peace and quiet.
00:06:55.020The other thing is, once you get into a discussion, if the couple or one of the spouses opens up to you, don't feel like you have to fix it, because you can't.
00:07:06.140Of course, you'd love to, you'd want to help the other person.
00:07:08.540You'd love to get them from the cross, and in all likelihood, nothing that you will say will do that.
00:07:14.800There is probably no easy fix, medically speaking, and you can't just sort of say something that will make the couple sort of skip and dance away and say everything is fine.
00:07:24.740So, and finally, in terms of another big no is don't be curious for the reasons of infertility.
00:07:31.620It just feels very yucky to have people approach you and wanting to figure out, is it you, is it your husband, is it, you know, what's going on.
00:07:40.060And, I mean, as a fourth note, at the same time, don't feel like you have to walk on eggshells, which is more easily said than done.
00:07:47.300But the main thing is that that can carry you through this is a key term, and that is compassion.
00:07:53.440Compassion, which comes from patty to suffer, and this is suffering with.
00:07:58.520So what you can, can you do when people are suffering tremendously, that is valid for all kinds of suffering, is being under the cross with them, like the Blessed Mother and St. John.
00:08:07.280And that means not being able to do much, but just being there.
00:08:10.820And you know what, being there and not trying to fix it is tremendous, because it means you can let go, you can confine, you feel the warmth of love, you feel you can just unburden yourself.
00:08:22.180And somebody else is just there to say, you know, I am so sorry.
00:08:25.860I am so sorry you are going through this.
00:08:28.280And we know from the book of Job that his friends are doing the wrong thing when they come and basically tell him why he is suffering.
00:08:34.900You know, that's another thing, after a while, you know, the couple just doesn't seem to be moving on, and why is this taking so long, and such and such is going through much worse suffering, so why aren't you?
00:08:45.080You know, everybody has their own pace, everybody has their journey, God has his plan, and perhaps this couple is just taking a very long time, and perhaps until the rest of their lives.
00:08:53.440I hope not, but that might be, and it's not for me to determine when they should be at this new spot where it will be easier.
00:08:59.220So I'm not there to tell them why they're suffering infertility.
00:09:02.140I'm there to be a Simon of Serenity to them and help them carry this cross.
00:09:07.560And if I do that, I will have done a real, true work of mercy and help them along.
00:09:29.160And that's also what's part of the struggle of the couple, that the woman and the man are dealing with the suffering very differently.
00:09:36.920And if you don't pay attention, then on top of this big suffering, you have a marriage crisis on your hands, which is the last thing you want.
00:09:43.160But I think it's very important for the couple to work through it, to talk through it, and to realize that the other is processing things very differently.
00:09:51.280So for the husband, I'd say it's very important for him to realize, you know, I can't do anything.
00:09:55.920This is tremendously frustrating for me.
00:09:57.560But by listening, by allowing my wife to cry on my shoulder, I am really helping her.
00:10:02.500And it may seem that we're going over the same ground again and again.
00:10:05.040But if that's what she needs, and if I can take it, I mean, you know, everybody needs a break, maybe you can take it, then you're doing a tremendous job towards your wife.
00:10:19.320And he may be suffering just as much as you are, but he's not able to express it.
00:10:22.520And perhaps he doesn't even want to talk about it, which is okay, too.
00:10:25.380You know, respect his wish, but show him that if he wants to talk about it, if he wants to cry on your shoulder, then that's fine, too.
00:10:32.240And, you know, tell to the other what you need.
00:10:34.660So often it's so helpful to have your spouse come along with you to the doctor's appointments, you know, sitting in the waiting room with all these other women who are heavily pregnant, and you're not, and you're getting another bit of bad news of why this is not working out.
00:10:46.300Well, you know, tremendous thing for the husband to be there and help us through this.
00:10:50.380Or if the doctor is pushing IVF on you, and you're already in a very weak position emotionally, then having your husband there as your protector is tremendous.
00:11:02.740And if you feel that you're going into crisis mode, you know, go and see a good priest, go and see a Christian counselor, don't let this become a major crisis.
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00:12:07.780Though things are better now than they were, let's say, 10, 20 years ago in terms of the technology, you still only have a 36% rate.
00:12:15.180So about one-third of a chance to have a baby in your arms after having gone through a grueling process.
00:12:20.140You know, even people who are fine with it, otherwise, ethically, nobody says this is like a walk in the park.
00:12:27.480It's really, it's terrible for the woman, for the hormones that she needs to take, the retrieval of the eggs, for the husband to masturbate in the room, probably watching porn, which, you know, in itself is so, goes so much against his dignity, his marriage, the child they're trying to conceive.
00:12:42.980And then ultimately also for the child, you know, what a terrible thing to be conceived in a lab.
00:12:49.840And if you read the witnesses of adults who were conceived as children in this situation, they say how painful it is for them to think that they were conceived in a lab and that their fate was decided by technicians.
00:13:03.680You know, what a difference to being conceived in the loving and hopefully loving embrace of your parents.
00:13:08.100You know, safely nestled in the womb of your mother from the beginning, rather than having technicians then decide, well, this one looks good.
00:13:56.400We make sure that we're not undergoing any shock, any trauma, because we know how sensitive the child is.
00:14:01.640And somehow its conception is not relevant.
00:14:06.200We're turning the child into a commodity and the child is always a gift.
00:14:09.820And the difficulty about a gift is that we cannot force it.
00:14:13.560And it's terribly hard to understand, you know, why sometimes this is not working out.
00:14:18.500But we're not doing anybody any favor by sort of forcing it and and thereby actually sinning against grievously against the child.
00:14:27.920Even then, you know, once the child is there, you know, of course, we should love it.
00:14:32.400And I'm sure that lots of IVF parents are wonderful parents, you know, leaving aside the nature of the conception.
00:14:37.800I think the real kind of medical method that should help them is one that helps them have a child naturally, not replace them, which is what IVF is doing.
00:14:49.640They're just, you know, producing the child on the side and implanting it with the woman and hoping it's going to stick.
00:14:53.980That's, you know, everybody, I think even those who go for IVF, sorry, would much rather just have a child the natural way.
00:15:00.760And there are other methods, like I think by now well-known Dr. Hilsch's with his great method, NAPR technology, who has a much higher success rate than IVF and who tries to heal the couple.
00:15:12.560So I think, you know, the church is wrongly interpreted as putting burdens on us just for the heck of making our lives harder.
00:15:21.860On the contrary, it's trying to show us the laws of life, the path of life, and turning a child into a commodity, using another person in that way is just against that person's dignity and leaves to ruin us wounds.
00:15:37.480I was very struck once when I read another testimony by an IVF-conceived, now adult, who said, you know, my mother was not willing to carry the suffering, and she's now passed it on to me.
00:15:53.860And in a way, I'd say it's even worse than that, because infertility, it's a natural tragedy.
00:16:12.020And my deciding that I want to do IVF to have my child means I'm instrumentalizing my child, and I am potentially inflecting a grievous wound on my child.
00:16:22.960Now, whether that manifests itself or not, I have de facto sinned against that child.
00:16:28.420You know, whether the child is aware of it or not, whether there are any repercussions along the way.
00:16:32.380And I think often there are, even if there are not as many studies out there as we would like, because it's simply not a very popular topic.
00:16:40.660But on the positive end, I'd say to people who are struggling with infertility and who don't have any kids so far, they can act as parents without having children.
00:16:52.880A parent wants the best for their children.
00:16:56.240And that means not doing anything dramatic that would grievously wound that child.
00:17:01.380That would be a sin against the child.
00:17:02.520So by deciding, I'd rather not have a child than have it through IVF, I am actually acting like a parent.
00:17:10.240You know, and God has made us tremendous promises about the sterile woman who will be the mother of many.
00:17:15.240And we don't know exactly what that will look like in the afterlife, but we know that God keeps his promises and that somehow we will be having babies on our laps and be the parents of many.
00:17:27.740And that's a way of doing it, even if, unfortunately and heartbreakingly, you may not have us in this life.
00:17:34.680Now, as you mentioned there, Dr. Hilger's various technologies that assist with reproduction, but natural reproduction, in other words, the child is still conceived in that marital union between the husband and wife, are actually more successful than IVF.
00:17:52.480But to the great shame of much of the medical community, it's not offered.
00:17:58.720Yeah, I mean, I've heard Dr. Hilger speak about it also at the Vatican conference and saying that really in terms of success rates, we're not better off now than we were in the 50s.
00:18:11.360You know, it's simply that the whole industry has gone full steam into this one technology, mainly IVF, and hasn't looked at anything else.
00:21:10.640And so we don't expect parents who, let's say, just lost their three-year-old to sort of skip and jump through life.
00:21:18.480And nor should we expect that from ourselves who are experiencing infertility.
00:21:22.940So I think we need to be aware that again and again, we will have moments where we really need to cry our heart out.
00:21:30.520Go to our spouse, go to a close friend, go to a priest, go to Christ in the Eucharist and know that he is there with us.
00:21:40.400What really helped me was reading about Mother Teresa's spirituality and her talking about the thirst of Christ for us.
00:21:52.060And the thirst for that dark part, this dark part of our hearts, of our souls, we feel it's just too painful for him to go in, either because it's sinful or painful or both.
00:22:04.460And Mother Teresa called us, those are inner kulkas.
00:22:08.280And Christ is desiring tremendously to enter those.
00:22:12.480And because he's the only one who ultimately can heal them.
00:22:15.600Other human beings can go in to a certain point through love, but only Christ, who knows us inside out, can go that deep.
00:22:23.300And so to allow him to come in and heal us is, I found it very, very powerful.
00:22:56.240Also because when I'm given the grace now for how it's going to be in 30 years, we're given the grace for now.
00:23:00.880And so when I realized, no, all I have to do is accept the infertility for this moment, just for this moment, not even for tomorrow, just for now.
00:23:17.120So, no, God is not asking me to do that.
00:23:19.120He asks me to say yes to it just for now.
00:23:22.540And I thought that was tremendously helpful.
00:23:26.280I also, I don't know, I'm sure you've heard about this wonderful Italian woman, Chiara Corbella, who died like 10 years ago at the age of 27.
00:24:58.800And he said they were able to do this by doing piccoli passi, doing little steps every day, just taking on what was expected of them and not more.
00:25:09.760And thereby, they were able to climb a spiritual Mount Everest.
00:25:13.600And I'm pretty sure she's going to be canonized.
00:25:16.100And I think her husband is not far behind her in holiness, but he's still alive, so we can't canonize him yet.
00:25:20.600But these people are so inspiring, you know, as we're struggling through our dark night of the soul.
00:25:26.780And perhaps God isn't giving us these kind of graces, but he's with us just as much.
00:25:32.400A lot of people, when they hear about infertility, they speak right away about adoption.
00:25:54.420I had friends, they tried to adopt five times, and every time it fell through, like at the last minute, suddenly the mother decided differently.
00:26:02.380So it was tremendous suffering for them, you know, first the infertility, then not working out.
00:26:07.200And then eventually they figured out that God was calling them to something else.
00:26:10.360So in a way, it feels a little bit, when people bring that up, like they're trying to sideline you to, you know, step away from your pain.
00:26:17.980And again, they're just trying to find a solution, which, sure, I mean, adopting is a wonderful thing to do.
00:26:22.760And a lot of couples are so happy to have adopted children whom they love just as much as they would their biological children.
00:26:30.320But, you know, every couple, even those that have adopted, would have loved to, to go through pregnancy and give birth to their child.
00:26:39.060And, and adoption doesn't replace that.
00:26:43.520So, again, it's something I would, I would not bring up.
00:26:48.560And, you know, guess what, I think the couple is thinking about it themselves.
00:26:51.940What do you make, there are probably a good number of, of young women today who talk about, I never, ever want to get pregnant.
00:27:05.680Those who say, I don't want to get pregnant because that would be a harm to the environment.
00:27:09.240Or I'm just, why would I ever get pregnant?
00:27:39.260And often only when it's too late do they realize that it's not the same and they pass childbearing age.
00:27:45.040So I think, and because there are so few examples now of women around with children and they often see them as, well, those are the ones who are stuck at home.
00:27:55.920Well, I mean, A, there are lots of women who do work and have children.
00:27:59.020So it is possible, even though, yes, it is harder.
00:28:01.980And if success is the most important thing in your life, then a child will make things harder for you.
00:28:07.220But I think women are really by nature so tuned in to personal relationships.
00:28:46.460Well, if you really want love, then love comes by giving love.
00:28:49.600And, you know, John Paul II was so wonderful in explaining how we're really made for love.
00:28:55.720And whatever our calling is, whether it's marriage or the religious life or the single life in some way, we're always called to get for self.
00:29:04.020So if happiness is what you want, then that's the route you need to choose.
00:29:08.000But it's true that young women just need to see more, more women who are happy at being mothers.
00:29:15.420Sure, they're tired and they have their issues like everybody else.
00:29:19.260But boy, do I know a lot of women who are so happy at being mothers.
00:29:23.500And I, you know, after nine years, I finally had a baby, my husband and I, and I decided to stop teaching full time at university.
00:29:31.960And, you know, on one level that was hard and on the other, I'm so glad and I wouldn't want to miss it.
00:29:38.380You know, it could never, never cover that.
00:29:41.880My job could never cover that emptiness of not having a child in arms.
00:29:52.660So it's, Emmaus has published it, so you can get it from their website and then the usual suspects like Amazon, of course, so they don't like to promote them.
00:30:02.940But Emmaus, yes, is the place to go to.
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