In a statement this week, Pope Francis said that Pope Benedict XVI supports him in his stance on same-sex marriage. Does this mean that the Pope supports Benedict in his position on gay marriage? And what does it mean for the future of the Catholic Church and the practice of celibacy in general? All that and more on this episode of the John Henry Weston Show with Rome correspondent Michael Haynes.
00:00:00.000Their main priority is ensuring that the Catholic Church is providing a blessing to homosexuals,
00:00:06.000a sin which the Bible knows is one of those that cries out to God.
00:00:17.060And we are back with Rome coverage with Rome correspondent Michael Haynes.
00:00:21.600We've got some interesting things this week because Pope Francis made a statement.
00:00:25.700If you remember a few weeks ago, he made a statement about how Pope Benedict kind of supported him on his take on sexual orientations.
00:00:33.340And then that was proven, of course, false. In fact, the opposite.
00:00:36.120Something similar happened with regard to marriages this week.
00:00:39.620He was talking about the easy dissolvability of marriage and how Benedict would have backed him on that.
00:00:45.720He also spoke about priestly celibacy, basically calling it, you know, something that is totally changeable.
00:00:52.440And it seemed to sound like something that can be totally done away with, even in the Roman right.
00:00:57.980We're going to get to that. But also, very interestingly, he did condemn gender ideology.
00:01:05.360So that's very confusing, especially because of what he's done in practice.
00:01:09.900In addition to that, we have the German bishops.
00:01:13.100Michael Haynes wrote a fascinating piece about what's going on in the German bishops' conference, talking about how the vote in the German bishops' conference to allow for homosexual blessings was 38 to 9.
00:01:27.880Do you remember all the talk from some priests, Father Altman used to say it too, about the huge number of bishops that are either homosexual themselves, that means practicing homosexuals, or at least homosexualists, in that they are, you know, supportive of it.
00:01:43.520He talked about more than 50%, and people were like, oh, come on, that's just such an exaggeration.
00:01:50.140Get this, how then is the vote 38 to 9 in favor of same-sex blessings in Germany?
00:01:57.880There's more to it because there were some abstentions and whatnot, but nonetheless, 38 to 9, 38 approving, only 9 opposed.
00:02:05.620In addition to that, the head of the German bishops' conference has basically said, yeah, we're going forward with it.
00:02:13.340We don't care what anybody else thinks, including Rome.
00:02:16.600All that and more on this episode of the John Henry Weston Show with Rome correspondent Michael Haynes.
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00:12:56.280What did he say, and how does that play out in Catholic thought?
00:13:01.580So, he was expanding on celibacy, and he was asked about whether or not that could be a subject for change or a vision in the upcoming years.
00:13:13.840And so, he stated there's no contradiction for a priest to marry.
00:13:17.960He said celibacy in the Western Church is a temporary prescription.
00:13:22.300He said it's not an eternal aspect, like the priestly ordination, which confers the priestly estate.
00:13:33.200So, he just called celibacy the discipline.
00:13:37.480And then, he was then asked again, specifically, could this be revised?
00:13:42.000So, he's mentioned this a couple of times over the last few years.
00:13:51.280Again, in quite a number of interviews, he's probed on whether or not celibacy could be revised.
00:13:57.880And he often comes back to this argument that, well, it's just a law.
00:14:02.020And as we've seen with many other things, say, like with marriage, or with many of his statements, he strays his foot over the line, creating that confusion, and suggesting that at some point soon, we'll be revising this teaching.
00:14:16.700But this is very, very dangerous, particularly in light of, especially in light of the German Church, the Synodal Way, where you have very strong liberal forces who are arguing for female deacons, or for married priests, or for transsexual deacons or priests.
00:14:39.360For Pope Francis, then, to casually suggest that the rule of celibacy is just, you know, something that could change, at will, or change as the Church goes into a new age or not.
00:14:53.120So, let's delve into that, because in the Eastern Church, it is permitted, which he mentions.
00:15:25.920They recognize still that the proper or best form is to conform yourself as a priest to Jesus Christ himself, who, of course, was unmarried.
00:15:35.620St. Paul says very clearly in the Scriptures,
00:15:37.760I, you know, I wish that you were, as me, in other words, a celibate.
00:15:42.560And it is very clear from the Church's perennial teaching that that is the superior way.
00:15:48.560It, you know, to give oneself in that way to the Lord is a higher calling.
00:15:55.960But, you know, it is one that is proper for priests.
00:15:59.320And I know there's the permission, but even the Eastern Church acknowledges that the best way is celibacy.
00:16:07.700I think your reference there to sacred scripture is one of the more beautiful arguments that the call to the priesthood is not like a call to another role in the rest of the world.
00:16:21.260It's a call apart to something where you are a father of souls and you're ministering to all those around you.
00:16:28.380And very much that involves, if it's to be Christ-like, whose love was a sacrificial love, which involved him dying for us on the cross.
00:16:38.800The priesthood then has to imitate that Christ-like love, which is sacrificial, which is a death to oneself and to the world.
00:16:47.320And to, therefore, deny oneself the natural inclinations towards marriage and to follow Christ in that very particular, very, very beautiful vocation, which is the celibate state.
00:17:01.660And this is, I think, something which has cropped up time and time again as a means to attack the church from those who hate the church within the church or without the church.
00:17:14.800Because the celibacy of the sacred priesthood is something so beautiful that opponents of the church really see it as one of the main goals to destroy completely.
00:17:26.900Because once you remove the priesthood as something set apart, as a state of life which you have to sacrifice so much for, then the church becomes like a normal organization, a normal business with branches in different parts of the world and its positions of authority and are no longer held by those who sacrifice everything in order to follow Christ.
00:17:53.260Yes. Well, I mean, think about this situation practically. Look, I'm a dad of eight kids.
00:18:00.400If you think about the priesthood, and I don't mean those who consider the priesthood a job. I put in my nine to five and I'm done. That's nonsense.
00:18:09.560The life of a priest is given to Christ wholly and fully. And if you follow around the priests who are totally in love with Jesus, who give themselves to this work, they're on like 24-7.
00:18:22.520They are sought out by many of the faithful who need confessions, sometimes help.
00:18:29.820They're called in the middle of the night to give the last rites to dying people.
00:18:33.580They are in confessions for hours at a time, sometimes every day.
00:18:37.960That's in addition to all the masses and the preparation they have to do.
00:18:57.940I mean, some are doing that, Eastern Rite and those who have converted from other, you know, Anglicanism and or Protestantism of some kind.
00:19:31.880Yeah, it reduces it to something that's there, just for the sake of being there, in the sense that, I don't know, there could be a rule in the seminary about what fasting requirements are to be adhered to during Lent.
00:19:46.100But just a particular rule for that seminary, it kind of compares the celibate priesthood to that as something that we can change,
00:19:53.560because there's no greater theological meaning to it, so we can change it if we feel like it.
00:19:58.900And that, as you say, is very against what the church has always taught, because if the church notices what doesn't notice,
00:20:07.140it loves and protects that deeply theological beauty of the celibate priesthood, which is in the imitation of Christ.
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00:21:18.300One of the stunning things you wrote about last week was just, or this week actually, was the vote at the German synodal meetings where they approved the blessing of same-sex marriages.
00:21:33.800Now, that's a bit of an old news, but new is that number.
00:21:39.640The breakdown of votes among the bishops, I thought, is stunning, particularly because of what I said in the intro there about how people used to say, oh, there's like 50% of the bishops who are either practicing homosexuals themselves or homosexualists and that they agree with homosexuality and encourage it and whatnot.
00:21:56.000And everybody thought 50%, as Father Altman would say, or higher, oh, come on.
00:22:45.880You have to ask, why are these bishops so keen on promoting the same-sex blessings, or also keen on promoting this normally very undefined inclusion of homosexuality, which generally just means accepting homosexuals and homosexual behaviour?
00:23:04.060So, it's a very peculiar, a very disturbing state of the church when you have bishops who have responsibility, not just their own souls, for the souls of their priests, but for the souls of all the faithful in whose priests' parishes and in their diocese.
00:23:21.120And it seems that their main priority is ensuring that the Catholic Church is providing a blessing to homosexuals, a sin which the Bible knows is one of those that cries out to God.
00:23:33.640Now, Catholic teaching is very clear that there is a condemnation of homosexuality.
00:23:38.440There's not a condemnation of people with homosexual tendencies.
00:23:41.380The document which they approved was the blessings for couples who love each other, and that's going to include homosexuals.
00:23:47.920So, what they're doing by that is just approving blessings for people who are actively engaging in a homosexual lifestyle.
00:23:56.280So, there is this massive lack of concern among the bishops for leading these people down the road to hell, and maybe they don't believe that anymore.
00:24:09.940And all charity thinking about them and their stance voting for this, they don't think they're leading them to hell.
00:24:13.620But they know they're allowing them or leading them or assisting them, encouraging them even.
00:24:21.480In a behavior that's physically harmful, it's psychologically harmful, but maybe they say it's only psychologically harmful because everybody condemns it.
00:24:29.860Let's give them every argument, but the physical is still there.
00:24:34.680So, there's no way they can claim, oh, they want to be charitable, they want to be good and loving.
00:24:40.780Any parent, when they know their children are doing something that is harmful for them, even if they think they like it, will stop them from doing it.
00:24:50.460You don't let your children eat chocolate all day, every day, and then complain of the cavity pain because you love them.
00:24:58.060And they're going to complain when you take the chocolate away.
00:25:23.360You were writing on, you know, even recently about a new video out from the head of the German bishops talking about what they're going to do.
00:25:36.420So, he's the head of, as you say, the German bishops' conference.
00:25:39.740And he was interviewed by the media shortly after the vote was taken.
00:25:44.480And the media were pressing him, asking, are you not going in opposition to the Vatican and to Pope Francis by your advocacy for same-sex blessings?
00:25:55.740It's very interesting to watch how Bishop Batsing responds.
00:25:59.540He tries to argue that if there was a good in a relationship, then this is something that we can bless.
00:26:08.700And that he's pressed again on, are you not forging ahead a path that's in contradiction to the Pope?
00:26:15.120And Bishop Batsing responds, well, we're going to do it here.
00:26:19.880You know what, that's so stunning, it's worth watching.
00:26:23.320Now, it's in German, but there are subtitles in English.
00:26:26.400Take a look at this, watch his body language, read these questions and his answers.
00:26:31.760And this is why we have the talk that they're going to go into schism.
00:26:37.200Now, that's said, though, by people who believe, I guess, that Pope Francis will actually do something and have to sort of regretfully tell them they're in schism.
00:26:51.280Homosexuelle Paare, Paare, die geschieden und wiederverheiratet sind, Paare, die um den Segen bitten, das ist etwas, was wir hier tun.
00:26:59.020Ja, das können Sie hier tun, aber das Problem ist, dass der Vatikan dazu bisher immer gesagt hat, es sei nicht erlaubt, homosexuelle Partnerschaften zu segnen.
00:27:07.840Heißt das, Sie setzen sich jetzt quasi über den Papst hinweg?
00:27:13.160Zunächst einmal muss man sagen, die Praxis der Segnung gibt es und wir wollen sie ans Licht holen.
00:27:18.620Und das heißt, dass wir Bischöfe uns dazu positionieren und sagen, es ist gut, dass wir das tun.
00:27:25.100Was in einer Beziehung zwischen zwei Menschen in einer Partnerschaft gut ist, das kann auch den Segen Gottes bekommen.
00:27:34.640Und wir haben heute gehört aus der belgischen Kirche, dass dies dort auch schon umgesetzt ist und dass das sogar mit Rom bereits besprochen ist.
00:27:44.860Ja, Ihr Kollege aus Belgien hat gesagt, er habe das so quasi so nebenbei irgendwie durchgekriegt.
00:27:51.340Aber ist denn das wirklich das, was Sie wollen, nämlich, wie Sie gerade gesagt haben, es ans Licht holen, weil es gut ist?
00:27:57.260Sind Sie ganz sicher, dass der Papst das ganz genauso sieht?
00:28:05.560Wir haben dazu ganz intensiv gearbeitet.
00:28:09.100Wir haben ja in vier Foren gearbeitet mit zig Personen aus dem Synodalen Weg, mit Expertinnen.
00:28:17.260Und Experten haben solide Texte erstellt, in denen die Argumentationen, die zu unseren Beschlüssen führen, ja sehr ausführlich dargelegt sind.
00:28:26.020Und darüber sind wir gerne bereit zu sprechen.
00:28:29.020Aber das Handeln wird verändert werden.
00:28:32.160So, Michael, any final thoughts on that?
00:28:33.800I think it really shows just how much the Vatican's authority has slipped away.
00:28:40.280The fact that these German bishops are so carefree and easy to just blatantly disregard the Vatican's authority,
00:28:46.700which is clearly stated in 2021 that the church cannot bless same-sex blessings.
00:30:23.200That's Pope Francis with the transgender couple.
00:30:25.280Is this the same Pope Francis who praised, congratulated, and loves the nun they call the nun of the trans, who, yes, she works with the poor wonderfully, but she opened up a home for poor transgender people.
00:30:41.820And she lets the couples, remember, these are two males or two females, one of whom presents or whatever as a different sex, but lets them live together as a couple.
00:30:54.480Is this the same Pope Francis who has welcomed transgender activists as well?
00:31:04.060So, how do we square Pope Francis saying that, you know, gender ideology is one of the most dangerous ideological colonizations, and then the Pope Francis who seems to bless the behavior of transgender individuals?
00:31:23.640It used to be that the church would not only hold that the kind of sinful ideologies are bad, it would also say, we love the sinner and hate the sin, and therefore encourage all of those who are engaged in behaviors that are harmful for themselves to come out of them.
00:31:45.620But we see something very different here.
00:31:47.660It's quite interesting to note the discrepancy there between his words and his actions.
00:31:54.240You mentioned the meeting and the welcome that he gives to transgender individuals.
00:32:01.160We saw quite a few times over last spring and summer, at the end of his general audience, he received transgender groups.
00:32:09.520If you try to imagine someone like Pope St. Pius X receiving transgender individuals as an audience, welcoming them, shaking their hands, and enjoying their company, having his photo taken with you, that's very much, that just wouldn't happen with Pope St. Pius X.
00:32:28.960But as you say, Pope Francis has this discrepancy between sometimes saying something that sounds vaguely Catholic, and then managing to act in a way that's very not Catholic.
00:32:44.900I think also in that same interview, he differentiates between gender ideology and sexual orientation.
00:32:51.880It does appear that he, in making that distinction, he lends almost some implicit support to the arguments regarding sexual orientation.
00:33:04.480So it seems that he's almost supporting the arguments for sexual behavior or for lesbian behavior, but he's just, at least verbally, pulling back a little bit from supporting the transgender movement, which is the poke of confusion.