The John-Henry Westen Show - One of the World's Best Pro-Life Apologists Had a Baby and it Changed Her Life

00:00:00.000 In 2017, the start of that year, I get contacted by a staff member at Google, and that staff member was familiar with my work, and he said, we just brought in the head of Planned Parenthood.

00:00:10.560 And so since Google tries to present itself as being inclusive and tolerant, I wanted to suggest they bring in the other side of the debate, and I wanted to suggest they bring in you.

00:00:20.300 When we arrived in the room, there was a lighting issue, and there was a flickering of a light, and I remember the staff member saying to me, if that light doesn't get fixed, they won't put the recording online, because they want the top quality recording.

00:00:33.720 And then the videographer didn't show up, and we delayed the talk, I think a solid hour, for it to make it on their YouTube platform and go viral, I mean, truly is a testament to the hand of God.

00:00:50.300 There are very few people in the pro-life world who are able to speak to the issue of abortion like my next guest.

00:01:01.600 Stephanie Gray has been in the movement for a long, long time.

00:01:05.980 She's been one of the most successful apologetics workers in the pro-life movement that the movement's ever seen.

00:01:12.740 In fact, she's been an inspiration to so many young people to take up the cause of arguing for life that she's pretty much legend in the pro-life movement.

00:01:24.200 She's got a new book right now, which is coming at it from a different perspective, one that sings to my heart.

00:01:31.720 My Body for You is the new book by Stephanie Gray.

00:01:35.720 Stay tuned to this episode of The John Henry Weston Show.

00:01:39.600 Stephanie, welcome to the program.

00:01:40.820 Thank you for having me.

00:01:43.080 Great to be reconnected with you.

00:01:44.880 We were just reminiscing, it's been too long.

00:01:47.860 Indeed, indeed.

00:01:49.000 Stephanie is originally Canadian, as am I, and Canadian pro-lifers are super proud to have you on this side, or at least born on this side of the border.

00:02:01.060 Well, thank you.

00:02:02.040 You know, it's funny, when I would do my speaking in the U.S., Americans would always say, when are you moving to the U.S.?

00:02:07.700 And I would always say, find me an American husband.

00:02:09.860 And so, Lila Rose took it upon herself to find me an American husband.

00:02:15.080 Oh, wow.

00:02:15.800 So, Stephanie, tell us a little bit about yourself, because you're known as a great apologist.

00:02:24.340 You have debated abortionists.

00:02:27.380 You have spoken at Google.

00:02:30.320 You've done all sorts of incredible things in the pro-life movement that people thought, oh, that's impossible.

00:02:35.140 And yet you've done it with great flair.

00:02:37.360 Who is Stephanie Gray, and where in the world did you get into this from?

00:02:40.700 Yeah, well, I am born and raised in Canada, and I would say I'm a daughter of the King, our Heavenly Father.

00:02:51.760 But in terms of how I got involved in the movement, really, it was my parents.

00:02:55.920 I have to give great credit to them who raised me in the movement.

00:03:00.480 So, I knew about, you know, CLC and LifeSite News and all of these things growing up.

00:03:06.380 I have stacks of letters that I wrote to then Prime Minister Jean Chrétien and the Premier Mike Harcourt of British Columbia, where I was growing up when I was 12 and 13 and 14 years old.

00:03:18.220 Because my parents were so involved in the movement, that's what I was always doing, even well before those teenage years.

00:03:24.660 But I then became really activated at that age.

00:03:28.120 I mean, I remember at one point writing a letter to the Prime Minister and getting the classic response from the assistants to the Prime Minister.

00:03:34.520 And I was so ticked that I didn't hear directly from the Prime Minister himself, that I wrote a letter to the two assistants, saying, I did not ask to hear from you, I asked to hear from the Prime Minister, and he needs to listen to me and end abortion in Canada. 0.85

00:03:48.360 So, you know, I was just deeply convicted as a young child, I loved babies, and I knew what abortion was from a very early age.

00:03:55.960 And so I therefore hated abortion.

00:03:57.780 And I knew there was a need to do something about it.

00:04:00.500 Now, there's a beautiful thing, in your book, you begin with motherhood.

00:04:07.300 That is something new for you, or relatively new anyway, in terms of your pro-life activism.

00:04:13.180 Tell us how that sort of changed your approach to pro-life and what it's meant for you.

00:04:19.820 Yeah, great question.

00:04:21.140 So, yeah, I spent, so I was raised in the movement, and then I went full-time in pro-life apologetics when I was 21.

00:04:26.920 And so I spent essentially two decades working full-time, traveling, speaking, debating, and so forth.

00:04:33.260 And in my 40th year of life, I guess 40 plus nine months, if we count my womb time, I met and married my beloved, wonderful, St. Lee, St. Joseph husband.

00:04:45.100 His name is Joe, and he's just like a St. Joseph.

00:04:48.520 But, so we got married in 2020, and then we got pregnant almost right away, and then very sadly lost our first child, who we named Lele.

00:04:56.360 Then we got pregnant again, and so that's our two-and-a-half-year-old daughter, Violet.

00:05:01.040 Then we had three more pregnancies that we lost through miscarriage, and then I'm pregnant right now.

00:05:05.700 And so these experiences of life and loss, of pregnancy, of motherhood, both pregnant as well as post-birth motherhood,

00:05:14.840 have really broadened my view on just the pro-life message.

00:05:19.120 Not that it was, you know, I've learned things I per se didn't know before, but it was theory.

00:05:25.380 And now it's living it out, realizing just how beautiful the call to motherhood is,

00:05:30.320 how each of us at the heights of our maturity when we get to adulthood are actually called to either motherhood or fatherhood.

00:05:36.200 That's either just going to be lived out spiritually or biologically, sometimes both.

00:05:41.360 You know, I consider what I did for 20 years in the movement to be a type of spiritual motherhood,

00:05:45.140 but now I'm living it out, you know, in that very biological way.

00:05:47.760 Right. So it's very beautiful.

00:05:49.960 It's very fulfilling and very rewarding, but also very challenging.

00:05:52.720 You know, I write that candidly in the book, you know, the challenges of raising, you know,

00:05:57.120 a toddler who does not think and behave like an adult.

00:06:00.900 The challenges of birth, you know, that were just so brutal.

00:06:04.880 I read at the very start of the book that I declared to my husband while in the throes of labor that I should have been a nun.

00:06:09.420 Um, so, uh, you know, realizing that there's hardship that comes with the grand call that someone is, is meant for.

00:06:21.360 That's not necessarily a bad thing, but therefore then realizing as a movement, when we tell people reject abortion,

00:06:28.060 carry a pregnancy to term, either place a child for adoption or, or parent your child, um, that,

00:06:33.420 that is calling people to challenges and to hardship.

00:06:36.620 And it can be very real at times, which is why we need support, which the pro-life movement has always done an excellent job of, of doing.

00:06:43.440 So since you've gone there, let me ask you, cause that makes it really hard.

00:06:49.560 As you know, every time you get into the situation, talking about abortion, almost for everybody,

00:06:55.800 it always comes back to rape and incest, already hard situations where women in, in pure cases, 0.92

00:07:03.080 when they're a lot of falsehood is given around that, but when there is a real crisis,

00:07:07.400 when there is something that's happened, that's unasked for and untoward and horrific,

00:07:13.360 how are you asking them to take on more hardship?

00:07:17.180 What's your response?

00:07:18.440 Right.

00:07:19.000 You know, to acknowledge that it is a profound hardship, uh, but to acknowledge that, unfortunately,

00:07:24.660 I don't have a magic wand that can go back in history and undo things that never should have happened.

00:07:30.000 So obviously sexual assault, rape, you know, incest, all of these things never should have happened.

00:07:34.380 If we can undo them from happening, we should, but we are not capable of that.

00:07:38.400 We live in the present moment towards a future.

00:07:40.880 We can't, we can't go back into the past.

00:07:43.100 So at that point, then, if we're dealing with someone who's been victimized by sexual assault

00:07:46.580 and has become pregnant, the child already exists and is in her body and must come out of her body. 0.98

00:07:53.100 Our babies can stay on our bodies forever.

00:07:54.960 So at that point, we need to ask the question, what is the most ethical response to bring the child out

00:08:00.060 dead as a result of an act we've intentionally inflicted through homicide or to bring out the

00:08:05.900 child alive through, you know, a natural act of birth.

00:08:09.400 So, you know, we, we need to acknowledge the hardship, but make the point that ending the

00:08:14.580 child's life because of the sins of the father is not fair to the child.

00:08:19.020 It just creates another victim. 0.89

00:08:20.640 Just as the woman had an injustice inflicted upon her to commit an abortion on the child is 0.91

00:08:25.900 to an inflict an injustice on, on another innocent party.

00:08:29.640 You know, I think of two people you're familiar with.

00:08:33.240 One is Leanna Rebellito, a pro-life speaker who was raped at the age of 12 and got pregnant.

00:08:37.520 And she not only carried her child to term, but raised her daughter who became her best friend.

00:08:42.380 And that's, uh, you know, a powerful testimony that's more powerful than even just my belief

00:08:48.320 and statement that we ought not end the lives of these children.

00:08:51.120 You know, you just need to look to the witness of someone like her and say, wow, if she could do that,

00:08:54.640 then, then maybe others can do that as well.

00:08:57.380 And then I think of the pro-life speaker, Ryan Bomberger, who was conceived as a result

00:09:01.300 of rape and, uh, his, uh, birth mom decided to place him for adoption, but he is so grateful

00:09:07.300 to her for what he calls his gift of life and, you know, grateful to his adoptive parents

00:09:12.600 for welcoming him into, into their home.

00:09:14.840 And he has now paid the love of his birth mom and his adoptive parents forward by adopting

00:09:20.060 children of his own.

00:09:21.400 So, so, you know, when, whatever we experience, you get more of it.

00:09:26.200 So anger is going to breed anger.

00:09:28.020 Love will bring love, breed love.

00:09:30.320 Generosity will breed generosity.

00:09:32.000 And so this selfless act of a rape victim who carries her baby to term, essentially saying,

00:09:36.860 this is my body given for you.

00:09:38.620 That will breed more of that attitude of, this is my body given for you with Ryan, you

00:09:42.820 know, using his life to speak for pre-born children, to adopt needy children and so forth.

00:09:47.660 I, I remember, uh, speaking with Leanna one time, interviewing her and the line she told

00:09:53.640 me and gang raped and brutally, it was horrible.

00:09:59.320 And she had scars from it. 0.98

00:10:01.320 She said, I'd go through it again for my daughter.

00:10:04.980 Just unbelievable.

00:10:05.940 So I need to ask you what I know everybody wants to know.

00:10:11.520 And there's two big questions that you probably get all the time.

00:10:15.160 How was it debating at Google?

00:10:18.120 What was that like going to make a presentation at Google?

00:10:20.800 That's incredible.

00:10:21.400 What'd you do?

00:10:22.580 Yes.

00:10:23.140 So really that is a God thing.

00:10:26.020 Um, you know, I, it was very interesting, just the timing of everything, because I actually

00:10:33.640 in 2015 was engaged to someone else and had a broken engagement, never made it to the altar.

00:10:39.140 And as I was working through healing from heartbreak, my spiritual director encouraged

00:10:43.860 me to go to a place near to your heart and mind, which was Madonna house.

00:10:47.580 And he said, you need to go to Madonna house.

00:10:50.620 You need to go there for 40 days because it's biblical. 0.91

00:10:53.140 Uh, you need routine, you need community, you need prayer.

00:10:57.160 And I said, but father, they use outhouses and he's like, you need to go there.

00:11:04.080 And so I went to the Don house and that was a time of real spiritual growth of surrender 0.98

00:11:09.220 of trust.

00:11:10.040 And I remember, so it was the fall of, of 2015 that I went there and I remember saying

00:11:18.840 to God, wow, I thought my life was just about to be changed.

00:11:21.700 I thought I was about to get married and slow down, but that doesn't appear to be happening.

00:11:26.720 So I entrust my pro-life work to you.

00:11:30.360 You are now, even though he always was, but I really intentionally said it.

00:11:34.520 You're my protector, producer, promoter, and provider.

00:11:37.780 Uh, if you want me to keep doing this work and I thought I was slowing down and I'm not,

00:11:41.920 you're going to have to make a way.

00:11:43.360 And so God started opening door after door after I finished my time at the Don house. 0.99

00:11:50.820 2016 goes on.

00:11:51.820 I continue my speaking 2017, the start of that year, I get contacted by a staff member at

00:11:57.400 Google and that staff member was familiar with my work.

00:12:00.380 And he said, look, uh, we run a series that's like Ted talks, but it's called toxic Google

00:12:05.200 and it's for our staff, but we put it on our YouTube channel and it goes all around the

00:12:09.140 world.

00:12:09.780 And, uh, we just brought in the head of Planned Parenthood.

00:12:12.900 And so since Google tries to present itself as being inclusive and tolerant, I wanted to

00:12:18.840 suggest they bring in the other side of the debate.

00:12:20.940 And I wanted to suggest they bring in you.

00:12:23.220 If I do that, would you do it?

00:12:24.560 And I said, well, of course I would speak at Google, but what are the chances they're

00:12:30.720 going to, to say yes.

00:12:32.760 Um, but yeah, I really credit my time at Madonna house and the time of surrender and, uh, not

00:12:38.240 long before that, my brother-in-law had given me a beautiful novena you're probably familiar

00:12:41.280 with called the surrender novena, where you, you know, reflect on words of Christ calling

00:12:46.200 us to really trust him.

00:12:47.620 And you say 10 times every day, I surrender myself to you, Jesus, take care of everything.

00:12:52.760 And, um, so I was saying that and I was like, I actually really think God's going to

00:12:58.240 make this happen, but I know I can't.

00:13:00.000 So I'm just going to keep praying this surrender prayer.

00:13:02.640 And then I really felt like God blinded the people that needed to be blinded and gave sight

00:13:07.840 to the people that needed to have sight because the way the opportunity to get to their headquarters

00:13:13.820 unfolded and to speak at their headquarters in the event, not be shut down.

00:13:18.120 And then for it to make it on their YouTube platform and go viral.

00:13:22.600 I mean, truly is, is a Testament to the hand of God.

00:13:26.040 And that when we are open to his will, but at the same time, uh, letting things unfold

00:13:33.040 as he wills in his timing, it's, it's really remarkable.

00:13:37.260 And even down to the day itself, uh, when we arrived in the room, there were, there was

00:13:42.860 a lighting issue and there was a flickering of a light.

00:13:46.020 And I remember the staff member saying to me, if that light doesn't get fixed, they won't

00:13:50.000 put the recording online because they want the top quality recording.

00:13:53.000 So then they were trying to scramble to get the light fixed.

00:13:55.720 And then the videographer didn't show up and we delayed the talk, I think a solid hour,

00:14:00.640 knowing that the ultimate power of it would be if it got recorded and then got put on

00:14:07.380 their channel.

00:14:08.440 Um, and so, so it just all happened.

00:14:10.800 And so it was, it was the spring of, it was Easter 2017.

00:14:13.960 The event happened, I believe it was June, 2017.

00:14:17.140 It was ultimately aired and then, and, and went viral after that.

00:14:21.160 Beautiful.

00:14:23.320 Now I have to ask you something because in terms of pro-life speaker, the ability to

00:14:31.560 convey the pro-life argument, you are, and I'm not meaning to swell your head, but you

00:14:36.340 are one of the most articulate, successful in that way of evangelizing the pro-life, uh,

00:14:44.600 talking points, if you will, uh, one of the most successful people on earth yet you've

00:14:51.460 pivoted.

00:14:52.460 You've, you've gone in a different direction and it, at least in terms of being more open

00:14:56.840 about faith and things of that nature, you've been able to listen, as you were mentioning

00:15:04.280 to the voice of the Lord is a very hard thing to do.

00:15:07.820 So a two-part question, tell us about how to hear the voice of the Lord, um, how it works

00:15:16.920 for you.

00:15:17.180 Cause I know it's different for other people, but, um, how that works, because it's very

00:15:21.540 difficult for a lot of people, but also how that transformation or, or, or approach, different

00:15:29.880 approach in your life worked and what you see coming of it.

00:15:33.340 Um, yeah, great questions.

00:15:35.680 So, I mean, again, I, I really credit my parents, not only for raising me in the movement, but

00:15:39.960 raising me in the faith and letting me know about Jesus and the Catholic church.

00:15:44.320 And, um, that really was formative for me.

00:15:48.660 I went to a very good Catholic high school.

00:15:50.600 I had very good friends.

00:15:52.620 And so, um, the foundation was there.

00:15:56.080 And when I went to university, it was natural to get involved in the pro-life club and to find

00:16:01.000 the local Catholic church to go to mass.

00:16:02.980 And so those two things just kept coming together.

00:16:05.840 And so, um, I have found the sacraments and, uh, adoration to be two areas where I've really

00:16:14.920 been able to hear the voice of the Lord and receive him as well as being obedient to trusted

00:16:21.440 authorities, you know, seeking up spiritual direction very early on growing up, actually

00:16:25.140 didn't, my parents never had spiritual directors.

00:16:27.000 We went to confession, but I didn't know about spiritual direction.

00:16:29.780 And then I noticed in university, some Catholic friends started doing that.

00:16:33.260 So then I started doing that.

00:16:34.640 It was like, I followed the crowd in a good way and, um, realize that when you find a holy

00:16:40.480 wise person to entrust the deepest parts of your heart to that, you know, obviously you

00:16:46.880 need to continually use wisdom and discernment, but you generally should be able to trust in,

00:16:50.660 in their authority and guidance.

00:16:52.400 So, um, I had a couple of spiritual directors early on and then a wonderful Byzantine Ukrainian

00:16:58.640 Catholic priest monk, um, who was connected to Madonna house ultimately, but, um, who,

00:17:04.440 who just, you know, formed me and helped me for years.

00:17:08.040 And so continual seeking out of his wisdom, uh, helped, but, but certainly just times of

00:17:13.740 prayer, times of adoration and times in the sacraments.

00:17:17.260 And then I was very blessed through the movement, which again, you know, so well, I mean, there's

00:17:20.600 just so many beautiful people in the movement that are on fire for the Lord.

00:17:23.460 And so a lot of events that I would go to where there was a faith-based audience, because

00:17:29.180 obviously at Google, there wasn't in college campuses, there isn't, but there were many

00:17:33.720 venues that I went to, you know, I spoke at net trainings and I spoke, uh, at CCO and

00:17:38.320 different events where there was a deeply spiritual group of people that, um, would give

00:17:45.620 me opportunities at their events where I could have prayer time in, in the way they worshiped

00:17:50.560 in the way they did praise and worship or mass or different things.

00:17:53.360 And so all of that really helped me.

00:17:55.840 And I knew had to be, you know, essential to, to any work that I did, um, years ago,

00:18:01.880 I don't remember who recommended it, but someone told me to read the book, the soul of the

00:18:04.920 apostolate and there's a beautiful illustration in this book where St.

00:18:09.060 Bernard, um, talks about a channel versus a reservoir.

00:18:13.460 And he said a channel, the water just flows through, but with a reservoir water fills up

00:18:19.360 and then the excess overflows.

00:18:21.740 And he said, uh, souls that do ministry-based work without prayer are like channels.

00:18:27.260 They're running, running, running, busy, busy, busy, doing, doing, doing, but by not taking

00:18:31.620 time to pray, they run out of steam and they can be a threat to, to whatever ministry they're

00:18:36.500 in, as well as to their spiritual wellbeing.

00:18:38.640 He goes, instead, we are to be like reservoirs.

00:18:41.580 So we are to take time and be still and know that God is God, allow ourselves to be filled

00:18:45.660 up with the Holy spirit, and then let that overflow into any apostolic ministry-based activity

00:18:51.940 that we do.

00:18:53.200 And so again, lots of counsel I've been given over the years, but being given that book and

00:18:57.440 that counsel also was very formative and, and influential in, in helping me see, okay,

00:19:03.700 this is, this is how we discern things.

00:19:06.600 So then I know to answer your question about this more like recent evolution, you know,

00:19:10.860 for years I was, I was raised kind of in the movement to speak the language of my audience.

00:19:15.600 And there's a place for that.

00:19:16.980 So at Google, I spoke a non-sectarian language at an evangelical church.

00:19:20.520 I'll use a lot of scripture passages at a Catholic church.

00:19:22.640 I'll do that as well as maybe some catechism passages or whatever.

00:19:25.720 Um, but I, I started to sense that the most powerful words we can use are the words of

00:19:32.360 Christ, whether our audience knows that or not, um, he's God himself and he is the word

00:19:37.920 and he gives us the word and we should be using his words.

00:19:40.280 And I, at the end of my new book, I share a story, how I spoke in Mexico at an event similar

00:19:46.300 to Ted talks, but it was called CDI.

00:19:48.180 And I prayed beforehand, God, what do you want me to share with this audience?

00:19:52.760 And I really sensed that he wanted me to, to work with this message of the greatest love

00:19:58.980 being, this is my body given for you, as opposed to the opposite of that, which abortion is,

00:20:03.560 which is, this is your body taken for me.

00:20:06.120 And I use that message and it went over really well.

00:20:08.800 And then in the subsequent years, I got married, I had children and I also share in the book,

00:20:14.580 but at the beginning of the book, how I was at mass one day with my daughter when she was

00:20:17.960 six months old and she started fussing and my husband handed her to me and I began to

00:20:22.040 breastfeed her and I sat down for her to latch. 0.98

00:20:26.200 And as I was looking down at her little face feeding on me, we were at the exact moment of

00:20:31.640 the mass of the consecration where the priest says, this is my body, uh, take and eat.

00:20:38.340 This is my body given for you.

00:20:40.960 And I'm listening to these words.

00:20:42.460 I've heard my whole life as my daughter, my flesh and blood is literally consuming me.

00:20:48.700 And it's just the Eucharist took on a whole new meaning.

00:20:51.660 Christ's sacrifice took on a whole new meaning.

00:20:53.620 Motherhood took on a whole new meaning.

00:20:55.000 And the pro-life message took on a whole new meaning.

00:20:57.560 This realization that at the heart of the pro-life message is, is a call for everyone

00:21:03.640 to be like Christ.

00:21:05.320 And a mother has a very unique way of doing that by laying down her body physically, emotionally, 0.99

00:21:11.100 spiritually, at every level and saying to our offspring, take and eat.

00:21:15.060 This is my body given for you.

00:21:16.840 And it starts in pregnancy, but it continues well beyond after that too.

00:21:21.640 Wow.

00:21:23.240 Wow.

00:21:25.000 That is so powerful.

00:21:26.440 I think a lot of people will get that.

00:21:28.840 And a lot of people who, who will have trouble breastfeeding need to pay attention to that last

00:21:33.200 part, because the last part is that happens from the get-go.

00:21:36.940 The, the baby is literally eating from your body or eating your body, um, during the whole

00:21:43.240 nine months.

00:21:44.460 Um, it's incredible insight.

00:21:47.100 I, I love that about the way you speak.

00:21:50.120 You very, you put in easy terms, concepts that could be described very loftily and, and

00:21:58.860 outside of the reach of the normal man.

00:22:01.380 Um, you can do that too, but you choose to distill so much of your learning, hard fought learning,

00:22:09.920 I might add, um, into very understandable ways to communicate them to the people who

00:22:18.840 need it, who aren't necessarily going to be so educated.

00:22:22.580 You did that beautifully, um, with, uh, Viktor Frankl's work.

00:22:28.520 Um, I love your distillation of his sort of end for depression.

00:22:36.380 If you wouldn't mind, would you mind giving us that in a, in a neat nutshell?

00:22:40.260 Because you do it so beautiful.

00:22:41.840 Thank you.

00:22:42.720 Yeah.

00:22:42.880 I absolutely love the insights of Holocaust survivor and psychiatrist, Dr.

00:22:46.780 Viktor Frankl, who lived suffering and observed suffering.

00:22:50.600 So both as a victim of the Holocaust, as well as, um, a psychiatrist who, you know, saw the

00:22:57.600 intimate details of so many people's lives who were really languishing and in anguish

00:23:01.660 at various times, both before and after the war.

00:23:04.100 Um, and so one of the things he talks about and wrote about was this little mathematical

00:23:10.820 equation called D equals S minus M.

00:23:14.640 And by that he meant despair.

00:23:17.100 The D is suffering S minus M without meaning.

00:23:21.300 Despair is suffering without meaning.

00:23:23.480 And so what he came to realize is that we humans need to find meaning in whatever situation

00:23:31.640 we're in, in order to thrive and flourish.

00:23:35.180 And the reality is because we live in a broken world, we cannot eliminate suffering from our

00:23:40.780 lives, but he wanted to make the point that we could eliminate or at the very least decrease

00:23:46.140 despair from our lives to the extent that we find meaning.

00:23:50.700 And so that's where this D equals S minus M came from, where he said, look, if suffering

00:23:55.900 that S is a constant thing, we all need to factor into our lives.

00:23:59.360 Then how do we find meaning in direct relationship to the suffering we're experiencing?

00:24:05.660 And to the extent we find meaning, our experience of despair will go down.

00:24:09.780 But if we find no meaning in our suffering, then our experience of despair will go up.

00:24:15.000 And so rather than eliminate suffering, he's like, we need to introduce meaning.

00:24:20.120 And so he cites beautiful examples, you know, a girl who became a quadriplegic where she

00:24:25.360 was paralyzed from the neck down, couldn't move her arms or legs.

00:24:27.840 And he said she would spend her days watching the news and reading the news.

00:24:31.600 And when she would come across a story of someone who was suffering, you know, maybe it was a

00:24:35.700 story about a house fire and someone lost their home or someone was in a car accident, whatever

00:24:40.160 the case may be.

00:24:41.380 She would call for an assistant to come and put a stick in her mouth. 1.00

00:24:44.460 And she used that little stick to move her head to pound out letters on a keyboard in 1.00

00:24:49.080 order to write notes of encouragement to people she'd just read about in the news.

00:24:52.560 And so here's Dr. Frankel saying, look, this young woman is paralyzed.

00:24:57.660 She has profound suffering in her life, but she's not despairing.

00:25:00.660 She doesn't want to end her life.

00:25:01.860 Why?

00:25:02.040 Because she found meaning and the meaning is directly connected to her experience of suffering.

00:25:06.580 And so his whole point is, to the extent each of us can do that, then we will find lives

00:25:12.740 of flourishing and fulfillment.

00:25:16.640 Absolutely.

00:25:17.120 Going from Dr. Frankel to Dr. Peter Singer.

00:25:24.320 That's incredible.

00:25:25.820 Technically he's not a doctor, I've discovered.

00:25:28.060 Would you believe it?

00:25:29.220 He does not have his PhD.

00:25:33.520 Wow.

00:25:35.420 That's unbelievable.

00:25:37.100 But tell us about that.

00:25:38.240 Tell us about the debate and how that got set up and what you took away from it.

00:25:43.240 Yeah.

00:25:43.700 So that was supposed to be in person.

00:25:45.340 And that was around the time of COVID.

00:25:47.500 It was 2020.

00:25:49.200 And the Harvard pro-life students reached out to me and said, we want to do a debate on

00:25:53.820 campus.

00:25:54.580 Would you be the pro-life representative?

00:25:56.500 I said, great.

00:25:57.520 I said, let's see.

00:25:59.120 Just let me stop you there.

00:26:02.500 So many people would be like, you want to debate at Harvard, Dr. Peter Singer?

00:26:06.620 And most people would be like, oh, yeah.

00:26:09.420 I mean, oh, boy.

00:26:10.480 Yeah.

00:26:10.900 You might find somebody.

00:26:12.200 But you're like, yeah, good.

00:26:13.080 Good.

00:26:13.300 Let's go.

00:26:13.920 Let's go.

00:26:14.320 Please continue.

00:26:15.340 Well, I will say, I don't know if they had Singer at the time.

00:26:18.180 And I can't remember if I recommended him or they found him.

00:26:22.220 But as you know, from the history of my pro-life career, it's often been difficult to get abortion

00:26:26.980 supporters willing to share a stage because they realize that they have the advantage

00:26:32.140 of widespread acceptance of abortion on demand.

00:26:34.760 And so when they share a stage with us, they jeopardize that.

00:26:37.620 We could change people's minds.

00:26:38.960 So often debate opponents before they became opponents would decline debates.

00:26:42.940 And there was a select number of people that maybe had enough hubris that would say, oh,

00:26:48.060 I'll debate her anyways.

00:26:49.900 So I wasn't sure if the club would get a debate off the ground, but they were able to secure

00:26:54.500 Peter Singer to be willing to debate.

00:26:57.260 And I was like, this is amazing.

00:26:58.340 I have spent 20 years studying this man, you know, talking to my audiences about this man.

00:27:03.460 And now I'm actually going to debate him.

00:27:05.080 So, of course, COVID happened and he was in Australia and I was in the U.S.

00:27:09.320 So it ended up being an online debate.

00:27:12.260 But it was obviously through everything online these days, larger, more largely attended than

00:27:17.920 in person.

00:27:18.400 And there's been tons and tons of views of of the debate.

00:27:22.160 And and I would say it was it was a it was actually a challenging experience.

00:27:26.520 I found because I often will describe to people that he comes across as a really nice person

00:27:34.140 and he has that soothing Australian accent.

00:27:37.500 I always think someone with an accent just has an advantage in a debate.

00:27:41.160 I wish I had my dad's Scottish accent because it just would give me a leg up.

00:27:46.060 But so so here's Singer with this nice, soothing accent.

00:27:51.020 And, you know, he kind of has a grandfatherly charm to him and he does some very good things.

00:27:58.540 You know, he's known for what's described as something altruism.

00:28:04.640 Now I'm forgetting the exact phrase, but he encourages people to donate huge sums of their

00:28:09.500 income.

00:28:09.980 He does that more than 10 percent of his income.

00:28:12.160 He donates to causes, you know, people who have heard his philosophy on on being generous

00:28:17.660 to others have been inspired to donate their kidneys to strangers.

00:28:21.020 So there is some good that this man has done, but there's also profound evil that he has

00:28:26.800 done through his teachings on abortion and on euthanasia and so forth.

00:28:32.100 And so I knew the challenge would be to expose his views on how we treat pre-born life as being

00:28:42.540 the monstrous views they are.

00:28:44.760 The challenge would be to really expose that in light of these other views that he holds that

00:28:49.860 that people celebrate rightly, you know.

00:28:52.240 So but it was it was a great experience because I think it's a great way of reaching a lot of

00:28:58.400 people who ordinarily would not listen to the pro-life message are now going to tune into

00:29:02.440 that debate and have online and and therefore going to hear a pro-life message in contrast

00:29:07.600 to his worldview.

00:29:08.780 Beautiful, beautiful, beautiful.

00:29:11.400 If you haven't seen that debate, go check it out.

00:29:14.820 So in your book, you talk about fathers.

00:29:17.200 You mentioned with regard to your husband, Joe, that he's a real St. Joseph.

00:29:22.440 Tell us about how married life and especially the example of St. Joseph have affected you and

00:29:29.020 your thoughts around fatherhood and abortion.

00:29:32.400 Yeah, yeah.

00:29:33.380 I love that question.

00:29:34.800 So I actually have a whole chapter in my book called When Our Bodies Are Protected and I cite

00:29:40.960 one of my all time favorite men and spiritual fathers, which is Bishop Olmsted, who actually

00:29:47.920 presided over my wedding.

00:29:49.060 I met him years ago at a pro-life event and I've just always found him to be so holy and

00:29:55.840 so Christlike.

00:29:57.080 And what I cite in that chapter is he wrote a beautiful challenge and reflection for men called

00:30:02.300 Into the Breach, really challenging them to rise to their call to fatherhood.

00:30:08.700 Again, like the call to motherhood, whether it's spiritual or biological, and to remember

00:30:13.920 what does it mean to be a father?

00:30:15.360 It's to be a protector.

00:30:16.540 It's to be a provider.

00:30:17.780 It's to, you know, help.

00:30:19.660 It's to teach.

00:30:20.520 It's to form and so forth.

00:30:21.820 It's to do hard things when they're the right things.

00:30:24.140 And so I, you know, I write that over my years in the movement, I have met a lot of people

00:30:31.040 who are incredibly bitter towards men.

00:30:33.260 A lot of abortion supporters that I have met have showed profound hostility to men in general,

00:30:41.120 but I would say pro-life men in particular.

00:30:42.480 And I've never understood that because my experience of men has been very positive, you

00:30:47.940 know, from my own father to leaders in the movement to now my husband.

00:30:50.960 And I started to realize maybe that's because I've experienced the men in my life living

00:30:57.180 out into the breach, living out authentic masculinity and fatherhood.

00:31:01.440 And these other people have experienced men abandoning them or betraying them or using and

00:31:07.340 abusing them.

00:31:08.440 And that has, you know, changed their perception of men as a result of their own pain and their

00:31:14.780 own experiences.

00:31:15.520 So I think certainly then my, my positive experience and some of these people's negative

00:31:22.180 experiences have, have made me realize how important it is that men empower men to go

00:31:30.200 into the breach and, and to live that authentic masculinity, to be the protectors and providers

00:31:35.920 that, that are so needed.

00:31:37.620 And I cite a story in my book of a friend of mine who tried to be that for his pregnant 0.96

00:31:43.440 girlfriend and she wanted the abortion. 1.00

00:31:45.840 And sadly in Canada, where men can't, in most parts of the world where abortion is legal,

00:31:51.620 can't ultimately decide whether an abortion happens.

00:31:54.460 You know, he tried valiantly to convince his girlfriend to carry the term, even if she

00:31:57.920 didn't want to be in relationship with him, he would raise the child and, and she, you 0.90

00:32:02.620 know, declined and ultimately had the abortion and killed his child.

00:32:05.700 And that just killed him in a sense, you know, is figuratively speaking.

00:32:09.340 And he had worked hard to be the man he ought to have been by trying to protect his child.

00:32:14.600 But then there are other men that will get behind the steering wheel and drive their girlfriends 0.99

00:32:17.640 or wives to, or daughters to abortion clinics. 0.98

00:32:21.020 And so, yeah, we need, we need the, the men who are, are giving virtuous examples to really

00:32:29.480 rise up and inspire other men to continue to do the same.

00:32:33.420 I mean, just even thinking, as I mentioned earlier, just the, the challenges and the

00:32:37.620 hard times of, of parenting and of being a mom, you know, you're exhausted.

00:32:41.580 I met, I went through a season of profound sleep deprivation when, when my daughter was

00:32:46.220 waking every hour.

00:32:47.120 And I honestly felt like I was losing my mind at some points.

00:32:50.840 And, uh, besides God, you know, giving me grace in that season, uh, my husband was my

00:32:56.360 rock.

00:32:56.880 I mean, when I was yelling and losing my mind, he was peaceful and calm and, and so loving

00:33:02.980 and so tender and so gentle and taking on extra work and extra loads so that my load could

00:33:09.320 be lightened, you know?

00:33:10.340 And so that's what, what we need more of.

00:33:13.860 Beautiful.

00:33:15.060 Um, since you're in America now, and, uh, we're obviously coming up to an election, a lot

00:33:21.720 of people post Roe, um, there's a different feel.

00:33:25.660 The, the, the, the want, particularly of the Republicans, or at least some of them to

00:33:31.680 still be pro-life, still fight for life seems to be on the wane.

00:33:37.880 What do we do as the pro-life movement, particularly in America, in a post Roe America?

00:33:43.000 Yeah.

00:33:43.540 I mean, we need to remember that we won a battle when Roe was overturned by the Supreme

00:33:49.780 Court and the Dobbs decision, but we didn't win the war and that the war is still raging

00:33:55.000 and that, uh, a moment of celebration is good to give us motivation to keep going and not

00:34:03.420 to pack it up and be like, okay, well, you know, now it's, it's a state by state level

00:34:08.260 because, well, first of all, if it's primarily being battled at a state level, then we need

00:34:12.660 to be battling at a state level and making sure that, that in states like Ohio, as we

00:34:17.520 recently saw where you unexpectedly, I would say, had this, this amendment to the state

00:34:23.560 constitution to broaden access to abortion in a state where generally you would have

00:34:27.640 expected a more conservative response.

00:34:30.320 Uh, there's a need to, to make change there.

00:34:33.080 But as, as I've said, um, abortion, because it is an act of homicide that directly and intentionally 0.91

00:34:39.880 ends the life of the youngest of our kind.

00:34:41.900 And at the end of the day, we don't determine that state by state.

00:34:45.560 It would be like saying, well, rape is legal in this state, but it's illegal in that state. 1.00

00:34:49.760 It doesn't make sense.

00:34:50.540 Rape, rape is so heinous and it's so wrong.

00:34:52.760 And it's so evil that it shouldn't be legal at a national level.

00:34:56.760 And so we should work at a state level where there are state battles happening, but we really

00:35:01.880 need to remind people that the right to life is an inalienable right, which means it's

00:35:07.580 not something granted because if it's granted, it can be taken away.

00:35:10.680 It's something inherent to our very existence.

00:35:13.940 And so since science has established pre-born children are members of the human family and

00:35:19.080 exist and begin their lives at fertilization, their inalienable right to life begins then.

00:35:24.220 And therefore they should be protected at a national level.

00:35:27.140 So I think we need to force the debate open.

00:35:29.740 We need to go to the gatekeepers.

00:35:32.080 That's our, our church leaders, our school leaders, uh, into public places.

00:35:36.860 And we need to be making debate happen where people see we're not going away just because

00:35:42.900 Roe v.

00:35:43.460 Wade was overturned.

00:35:44.680 Uh, we're celebrating that, but then we're saying there's more work to be done.

00:35:50.100 Indeed.

00:35:51.200 I'm going to give you a last question.

00:35:52.720 This might be a challenging one.

00:35:53.940 What's your vision of the end to abortion in America, in the world?

00:36:01.900 How does that play out?

00:36:03.340 How do we get there?

00:36:05.600 Good question.

00:36:06.680 I think it is a holistic vision.

00:36:10.280 It's, it's not one solution is going to actually solve the problem.

00:36:17.060 We have to realize the movement I've, I've said this actually throughout my career has

00:36:24.500 different arms that like we know from St. 0.96

00:36:27.560 Paul in the scriptures, a body has different parts, but all are needed to the greater functioning

00:36:31.600 of the whole.

00:36:32.860 So we need our political activism.

00:36:35.080 We absolutely need good politicians who are dedicating their lives to look at a political

00:36:40.940 career, not as establishing a good retirement plan, but as making a positive difference in

00:36:47.940 the world and making their legacy, a legacy of affirming life.

00:36:53.140 Uh, so we need people called to the political field field.

00:36:57.100 We need to educate people so that when political debates especially are happening, which are often

00:37:01.360 what make the news that good education and formation is happening.

00:37:04.920 Hence my, my work over the years in, in apologetics.

00:37:08.020 Uh, but then again, my own experience of motherhood is very practically people need help.

00:37:12.800 Like motherhood is not easy.

00:37:14.180 And so, you know, I've, I've thought more of often, I mean, my mom volunteered at a pregnancy

00:37:19.120 center.

00:37:19.520 So I saw a lot of single moms growing up, but now that I am a mom, I've just thought like,

00:37:24.480 how did the single moms do it? 1.00

00:37:26.500 Because I have faced challenging times with support.

00:37:30.300 Right.

00:37:31.040 So, so realizing, and I, again, I feature them in my book, having support networks, like the

00:37:35.860 sisters of life who literally open up one of their convents to pregnant women.

00:37:40.480 And then mom's postpartum as well, who, who live with them with their, their born children

00:37:44.600 to empower them in their motherhood, um, Mary's shelter.

00:37:49.240 I mean, there's places across Canada, really across the world that do the same type of thing.

00:37:53.240 We need to be offering that very practical hands-on support.

00:37:56.980 So we need to work in, I would say those three arms of the movement, but at the same time,

00:38:04.060 realizing, which again, you feature so well at LifeSite, uh, is, is there's a bigger cultural

00:38:09.360 battle.

00:38:09.940 There's a spiritual battle going on.

00:38:12.400 And so even beyond abortion, there are so many threats and attacks on the dignity of the

00:38:17.840 human person.

00:38:18.640 And so, um, you know, there's a need to, to get to our roots, to get to the faith and,

00:38:24.840 and really be praying more for inspiration is how to spiritually convert our culture as

00:38:30.160 well.

00:38:31.840 Absolutely.

00:38:32.400 Beautiful.

00:38:32.900 Stephanie Gray.

00:38:33.540 So good to be with you.

00:38:34.240 Tell us where can we get your book?

00:38:35.880 Yeah.

00:38:36.320 So people can go to stpaulcenter.com slash my body for you. 0.99

00:38:41.300 And if your listeners type in the coupon code for you 15, then they'll get a discount there.

00:38:46.380 So that's stpaulcenter.com slash my body for you.

00:38:49.940 And if people want to learn more about my blogging and day-to-day work, that's at love

00:38:54.300 unleashes life.com.

00:38:57.060 Stephanie Gray.

00:38:57.800 So good to see you again.

00:38:58.720 God bless you.

00:38:59.740 Thank you.

00:39:01.560 And God bless all of you.

00:39:03.440 And we'll see you next time.

The John-Henry Westen Show - February 28, 2024

One of the World's Best Pro-Life Apologists Had a Baby and it Changed Her Life

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