'Panzer Pope'？ Vatican Insider Cardinal Arinze Actually Reveals Truth of Benedict XVI
Summary
Cardinal Francis Arince, who served as a priest and bishop in the Roman Catholic Church for many years, joins us on the balcony of St. Peter's Square to speak about his relationship with our late Holy Father, Pope John Paul II.
Transcript
00:00:00.000
Our faith is celebrated in the liturgy, so the liturgy is a rather serious thing
00:00:08.160
because a person who didn't know what we believe should be able to tell if the person sees what
00:00:15.740
we celebrate and how we celebrate. That is why if a priest or bishop or anybody who has a part
00:00:24.400
in the liturgy begins to introduce idiosyncrasies, not minding what the church wants, if that
00:00:35.940
Welcome to this special episode of the John Henry Weston Show. We're coming to you right
00:00:39.980
here from the Vatican. As you can see, we are standing on a balcony directly across from
00:00:46.820
St. Peter's Square. We're on the balcony of Cardinal Francis Arince, who will be giving
00:00:52.260
us a beautiful testimony about his working relationship for many years with our late
00:00:59.660
Holy Father, who just passed away, whose funeral we were all at. Stay tuned for this episode
00:01:12.480
Eminence, we begin every show with the sign of the cross. If you could lead us, please.
00:01:16.400
The name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit. Amen.
00:01:20.200
It is so good to be with you. This is Cardinal Francis Arince, whom Lifesight has known for
00:01:27.060
many years. When we first met him, he was the head of the Congregation for Divine Worship
00:01:32.220
and Discipline of the Sacraments. But if you would, Eminence, give us a little bit about
00:01:36.560
your own history, about your own coming to priesthood, and where you're from.
00:01:42.060
I'm from Nigeria, from a village in Onicha Archdiocese in the south-central of Nigeria.
00:01:48.520
My parents belonged to African traditional religion. That was the normal religion the
00:01:54.560
missionaries found when they first came to our area in the beginning of the 19th century,
00:02:00.620
20th century. I went to school, and through the school, I was baptized when I was nine years old.
00:02:08.200
And the priest who baptized me, Father Cyprian, Michael Tansy, later on became a monk in England.
00:02:16.360
But he was first our parish priest and in two other parishes. I was baptized by him, my first communion,
00:02:24.760
my first confession. I was his master by 1945. And when he went to the monastery in England,
00:02:31.700
I visited him in 1959. Also, that time I was studying in Rome in the seminary for the mission countries,
00:02:42.960
urban, which we can see up the hill there, beyond the trees. I was ordained priest in 1958.
00:02:50.260
He died, this priest, in 1964 in England. When I became, I was back home in 1960, taught in the seminary
00:03:03.040
for two years, in charge of Catholic schools for two years. Then I was made assistant bishop in 1965.
00:03:11.440
My age was 32 then, but my age has improved. It's come dangerously near three times that now.
00:03:20.820
And then, archbishop in 1967, when I was 34, I worked in Nigeria. And then finally, to cut a long story short,
00:03:33.640
Pope John Paul II, now saint, transferred me to Rome, to the office for dialogue with other believers.
00:03:41.440
who are not Christians. And that was 1984. I worked 18 years in that office, and then six years in the
00:03:50.880
office for sacred liturgy, from 2002. And for the past 10 years, I am retired. With my age 90,
00:04:00.220
at our age, we are left free. If we are not in wheelchair, and we are not in the hospital,
00:04:06.520
or in the graveyard, we are allowed more or less to arrange our day, which is reasonable. That's where
00:04:13.740
you are now. Beautiful. Beautiful. So, there's few better people to speak with about first Cardinal
00:04:21.520
Ratzinger, and then Pope Benedict. And you've known him for many, many years, and be able to interact
00:04:27.400
with him. Tell us your recollections about Cardinal Ratzinger.
00:04:30.600
I heard of him when I was a young priest and bishop, that he was a very good theologian who
00:04:38.060
could say clearly what we believe. Then I met him when he was archbishop in Munich. I went there in
00:04:47.040
Germany to look for funds for Nigeria, and he was very kind to me. Then, of course, I knew him when he
00:04:54.560
was transferred to Rome in 1981 to the office for doctrine. I was transferred to the office for
00:05:01.260
dialogue in 1984. So, for many years, we had to work together. Because in any case, if any office
00:05:08.820
in the Vatican setup is writing a book or document which has doctrinal elements, then it is usually
00:05:20.000
the doctrine for the faith congregation that looks at it in case there's any need to comment
00:05:26.140
so that we are sure the doctrine is correct. In that capacity, I knew him. And also, I was a member
00:05:34.640
of his own congregation for doctrine, which means a meeting once a month. And when you start with him
00:05:41.660
at a theological meeting where he chairmaned the meeting, you knew you were talking with a master.
00:05:47.800
You go away like a person going away from a theological banquet because you knew he was a
00:05:54.820
balanced theologian. I admired especially his gentleness in giving credit to a theologian,
00:06:02.920
even if the theologian had some errors in his book. But he was able to never use the hash word
00:06:10.480
on anybody. Even when the theologian came dangerously being an iconoclast,
00:06:17.660
breaking all the statues in the church. But he always used gentle words, fair, and allowing everyone
00:06:26.560
to have his say, which the public often does not know. They only believe what newspapers have written.
00:06:32.900
You journalists, you can sometimes make things which are not 100% exact. It was a joy to walk
00:06:41.300
with him and near him and listen to him. Beautiful. That reputation that followed him,
00:06:48.460
der Panzer Kardinal, you got to work with the man, you got to know his heart. What were his thoughts
00:06:56.040
on that even, the characterization that he had, but also on his love for Jesus Christ?
00:07:01.700
His love for Jesus Christ is undoubted. You notice, we are told that his last words were,
00:07:09.080
Lord, I love you. Whether he used the word love in German or he said Jesus, for him is the same.
00:07:15.640
It was more a type of public image which people who don't know him catch. But that image is not
00:07:23.720
exact at all. Because when you are with him, you know you are with a master who loves the church
00:07:30.460
and whose office is to look after the doctrine, what the church believes and teaches, what we
00:07:37.640
received from the apostles all through the centuries. Suppose you have a professor of mathematics and he
00:07:43.920
teaches the children arithmetic. And when they finish their writing, this child says, my opinion is this,
00:07:53.580
the other child says, my answer is this, the other one says, my answer is that. And they tell the
00:07:59.320
professor, please don't be judgmental. Ah, but the professor says mathematics has no respect for
00:08:07.560
sincerity. Sincerity is a virtue. But there is another virtue called objectivity and mathematical
00:08:15.260
exactness. That one respects nobody. So you may be a very nice person, but you don't know arithmetic.
00:08:23.000
So the wrong answers are as many as there are students who don't know arithmetic. The correct
00:08:30.860
answer is only one. Will you consider the professor to be dictatorial and Hitleristic and Napoleonistic
00:08:40.000
because he didn't, he became judgmental. He said that some answers are not correct. You are not
00:08:47.260
serious. Even if you have football, soccer, there must be some rules. You can't just have soccer and
00:08:54.540
every player does what he likes and tells the referee, you must not be judgmental. You are not serious.
00:09:02.620
You are going to end up with broken bottles and people fighting. It won't be soccer anymore.
00:09:07.860
The doctrine of the church is much more serious than football. So there are actually things we
00:09:13.820
believe and there are actually things we don't believe. Somebody has to look after that in the
00:09:19.900
church. That's what it is. Isn't it a matter of joy that we have that? Or you want a religion
00:09:27.800
in which there are no rules. You are not serious. Where are you going to end up?
00:09:33.020
One of the things that on that very subject is going on right now seems to be in Germany,
00:09:39.360
there is a thought of a synodal path that seems to want to say, well, we can change the teachings,
00:09:46.600
particularly on sexual lifestyles and so on. Do you have any thoughts on that before we go back to
00:09:53.560
The Ten Commandments were given by God to Moses. And John Paul too says that even before God gave
00:10:01.660
the Ten Commandments to Moses, he already wrote them in the human heart. And my days, my years in the
00:10:09.100
office for inter-religious dialogue, I could meet Muslims, Buddhists, Hindus. Most of what God tells us in
00:10:16.740
the Ten Commandments are realized also by Muslims and Buddhists and so on. They may make, there may be
00:10:23.940
mistake in one minor point or the other. But most people know what is honesty, what is chastity, what is
00:10:32.460
truth. The human being has no authority to change any of the Ten Commandments. We cannot and we should
00:10:40.440
not, even if they are not popular, even if they are not easy. They don't change. Two and two are four
00:10:47.960
won't change, even when the child who calculated made a mistake. So that's what it is. It isn't we who
00:10:57.320
make what we believe, but we receive. Which means there are some things that are so and they don't change.
00:11:06.780
There are some areas where we can have opinion and where we can grow in our knowledge. Let us say
00:11:16.040
now slavery. In the days of St. Paul in the New Testament, in those days, slavery was still practiced
00:11:23.680
and the Christian didn't realize that it isn't correct. But gradually then, humanity saw the truth
00:11:32.140
there. It is very different when you examine God's rule for the family, God's rule for the individual,
00:11:41.400
and matters that touch relation between men and women. They are not subject to human opinion.
00:11:48.960
Otherwise, we are like those students of mathematics who got answers which a good professor cannot accept
00:11:56.360
because they accused the professor of being judgmental. Oh, Lord, help us. You don't want
00:12:03.140
arithmetic then. So we cannot also change what we believe, nor the constitution of the church,
00:12:09.620
nor the Ten Commandments, nor let us say that Christ made the church and he made bishops and they are to be
00:12:17.660
men. Now, the church has no power to change that. And John Paul too said that. If Christ saw that
00:12:26.000
women would be priests, you know that some famous women, beginning with his mother, the number one
00:12:32.040
holiest person would have been a super priest. And Mary Magdalene and all those women who followed him,
00:12:39.120
the apostles were not even on Calvary. Only John was there. And on Easter Day, it was the women who
00:12:45.920
persevered. So if anything at all, they were very, very loyal. But we can't change what Christ has made.
00:12:53.980
It is like doctrine on the Holy Eucharist. If a synod is studying our faith and following tradition
00:13:03.020
and church teaching, correct? But if it means free for all, where every individual pumps out that
00:13:13.000
individual's opinion, then we are not talking of our faith anymore. It is the formula for confusion.
00:13:24.540
In his final testament, Pope Benedict wrote, stand firm in the faith and do not be confused.
00:13:35.960
Much like what we are talking about now, he would not name his country. But we cannot avoid thinking of
00:13:44.220
what is happening in the German synodal way today. You notice that about 100 bishops from around the world
00:13:51.600
wrote a year ago, more or less, that it's rather dangerous and not the proper way to look at our faith.
00:14:01.320
So our prayer is that everyone may become much more conscious of this precious treasure that is our faith.
00:14:10.260
Just a quick note before we return. If you would like to stay up to date on LifeSite's coverage
00:14:16.960
of the latest life, family, and culture news, subscribe to one of our many newsletters by going
00:14:21.860
to lifesitenews.com slash subscribe. And if you'd like to help us bring our truth-telling coverage
00:14:27.700
to millions around the world, please consider making a one-time or monthly donation at
00:14:32.500
give.lifesitenews.com. And now back to the video.
00:14:38.600
Cardinal Ratzinger was, he was defending the Holy Father. He watched Pope John Paul II get older and
00:14:46.420
older and eventually pass away. He said the mass for Pope John Paul II. What were his thoughts then?
00:14:54.760
I heard that he wanted to retire even before while he was the head of the CDF, but he wanted to stay on
00:15:00.700
to help Pope John Paul. And then he became the Holy Father when he was already thinking of
00:15:05.680
retirement. What are your recollections of those days?
00:15:08.240
Exactly. That he wanted to retire. Pope John Paul II begged him or ordered him not to retire.
00:15:16.980
I agree with John Paul II. John Paul II made the correct decision, even though the Cardinal Ratzinger
00:15:23.720
wanted to retire. And he accepted to be Pope. Everyone saw he wasn't anxious to become Pope.
00:15:30.200
He was not a politician who is campaigning for election. We admire, therefore, his bowing in front
00:15:38.060
of divine providence. And if you saw, from what we have discussed so far, if you saw what he wrote on
00:15:46.120
the sacred liturgy and you saw how he celebrated the mass, you see then that our faith is very precious
00:15:54.140
and this man symbolizes it. And that is why people realize that, who love our faith and they respect him.
00:16:03.520
An individual who was a seminarian or something like that in the church, but he left because he was
00:16:09.220
very leftist and he was with Cardinal Ratzinger and was going to leave and so on. And he went and
00:16:20.180
Cardinal Ratzinger was there in front of him in church. Cardinal Ratzinger went to confession
00:16:25.740
and is so struck the young man that the young man reformed his thoughts and came back to the church
00:16:34.440
because of the example of Cardinal Ratzinger going to confession. What are your recollections about
00:16:40.620
Cardinal Ratzinger's practice of the faith, about going to confession and his use of the sacrament?
00:16:48.040
I didn't watch him going to confession, but I am not surprised that he was a practicing Catholic.
00:16:56.600
And that's what all of us should be. None of us grows higher than that.
00:17:02.140
And that is our title, when we go before the Lord. That example you gave proves what Paul VI also sent,
00:17:14.540
that people believe in witnesses rather than teachers. And if they believe in teachers,
00:17:22.480
it is because they are first witnesses, which means example is more powerful than words.
00:17:30.560
Isn't it clear? Isn't it clear? Even the apostles watching their Lord Jesus Christ,
00:17:36.920
they followed his example, even in his prayer. They said, Lord, teach us how to pray. We see you
00:17:45.600
praying often. Teach us. So example is more powerful than words.
00:17:51.060
One of the things that is very difficult for a Pope to, when he becomes Pope, I mean,
00:17:56.500
it's a challenge anyway. But Cardinal Ratzinger knew the inside of the Vatican very well.
00:18:01.900
And when he became Pope, one of the first things he said was, pray for me that I don't flee for fear of the wolves.
00:18:12.300
What was your understanding of that, what he meant? And what were your thoughts at the time and how it played out?
00:18:19.280
I thought that his work was such that he would have known some of the defects of some of the people in the church,
00:18:28.820
and that therefore some were not as holy as they should have been.
00:18:35.080
Remember, you remember that comment of his at the Stations of the Cross, at the Colosseum,
00:18:41.340
a short time before John Paul II died, the dirty dirt in church, which means people who are within the church,
00:18:52.740
but they have given scandal by their life. Those who are living double lives, an appearance before the public,
00:19:02.580
another reality which is not beautiful at all. So he must have been very sad about that.
00:19:09.760
That is also a proof that he wasn't anxious to become Pope.
00:19:15.260
Because if he became Pope, he would have to handle those situations, what to do in those situations.
00:19:23.400
Because with the human heart, you can't use force. All that must have been crossing his mind.
00:19:31.020
And all that may have, who knows what influenced him finally to decide that he could not continue.
00:19:38.660
One of the things that was very repressive during his reign was the revelations of more and more of sexual abuse on the parts of priests.
00:19:49.360
And a lot in the media really went to lengths to persecute Catholic priests because of this reputation.
00:19:57.680
It was worse among teachers and other things, but the focus was always on the Catholic Church and harming priests,
00:20:05.900
such that sometimes priests even going out in public, if they were there, clerics, were castigated in public.
00:20:13.920
And this happened also very much so in Germany.
00:20:17.320
What was the Pope's thought about this? I know he had to deal with it often.
00:20:22.120
Were you ever talking to him about it or heard him talk about it? And what were your thoughts on that?
00:20:25.920
I cannot tell what he was thinking. I can only guess.
00:20:32.060
I didn't discuss with him in this particular point.
00:20:40.580
As you have implied also, bad example attracts attention.
00:20:48.960
So that if one priest has not done well, his scandal can strike page one in the newspapers.
00:20:59.140
But the other 99 priests who are doing well, no comment.
00:21:04.420
And, well, you may say, well, it isn't only priests.
00:21:10.100
There are also, I won't mention other categories, where there was abuse of children, much worse than in the Catholic Church.
00:21:18.040
But people will answer, but you Catholics, you are the ones transmitting to us the gospel.
00:21:24.320
So we expect you, even if it's only one priest, it will already be tragic.
00:21:32.040
But as we know, if people want to know, most priests are doing their work.
00:21:43.080
But unfortunately, a few priests can give a bad name to the whole group, which makes people suffer.
00:21:52.900
I do not say all accusations are false, but some are false.
00:22:02.460
As Pope, he could not avoid handling the situation.
00:22:07.600
If these people wanted to meet him, he met them.
00:22:12.260
We are told that even he cried with some of those abused.
00:22:15.920
So these are facts which can come up when his cause of beatification is opened, as I hope, one day.
00:22:24.780
One of the things that is truly remarkable about the Catholic faith is its multiculturalism in a very real way.
00:22:32.100
Here you are, a cardinal from Nigeria, Cardinal Ratzinger from Bavaria, and then Pope, you know, as Pope.
00:22:41.280
What were your recollections about his being German, his being Bavarian, and how did that play out in your relationship with him?
00:22:50.980
No particular reference to Bavaria in our relation.
00:22:55.080
We had something much more serious to discuss than Bavarian beer or Oktoberfest.
00:23:06.680
But there is no doubt that God has made us not as matches in a box.
00:23:13.800
We have various cultures around the world, and that is a good thing.
00:23:19.100
So we are not, every one of them, a photocopy of the other.
00:23:26.080
So there is a lot of variety in the church, and that is good.
00:23:29.520
One of the things that Cardinal Ratzinger very much appreciated was music.
00:23:35.160
What was your experience with his appreciation of music and sacred music?
00:23:40.820
I could see that he loved music in the sacred liturgy.
00:23:44.580
I never had the joy to listen to him playing on the pianoforte.
00:23:52.700
But his love of liturgy and music in the liturgy, both what he wrote and what he encouraged, was very pleasant.
00:24:01.900
Even his own attachment to correct vestments, correct liturgical celebration, is already very eloquent in itself.
00:24:10.840
And his book on liturgy, you know, the spirit of the liturgy, is excellent.
00:24:18.280
Many of our woes in worship would not be there.
00:24:21.640
And finally, from your recollection of your time as head of the department or the Congregation for Divine Worship for Liturgy,
00:24:30.280
what were your takeaways from that and your, you know, work with the Cardinal at the time on that story?
00:24:42.160
So the liturgy is a rather serious thing because a person who didn't know what we believe should be able to tell if the person sees what we celebrate and how we celebrate.
00:24:56.000
That is why if a priest or bishop or anybody who has a part in the liturgy begins to introduce idiosyncrasies, not minding what the church wants, if that person is doing great harm to our faith.
00:25:11.900
I remember when I remember when I was in the congregation for divine worship, that was the time some were saying,
00:25:22.220
I said, no, this do it yourself, Mass, is over.
00:25:27.980
You are driving the people of God to pieces by, and destroying our faith by the way you banalize it.
00:25:38.120
You come to Mass and you crack jokes, and you tell them funny stories, and you say good morning, and you say, did your team win last week?
00:25:49.560
If you can see that in any church missile, I'll give you a talkie.
00:25:54.040
There's none of that joke because the liturgy is a very serious thing.
00:25:58.820
You know the medieval saying, Lex Orandi, Lex Credendi, the law of faith is manifested in the law of prayer.
00:26:20.520
A lot of people who would love to hear any other thoughts you might have about Pope Benedict,
00:26:26.060
and perhaps what you think we should do now in his memory.
00:26:42.620
Even though he was head of doctrine, congregation, but he was also very kind to Muslims and Buddhists.
00:26:49.760
The crown prince in Jordan, I had just read his Christmas greeting to me today before you arrived.
00:26:58.740
The crown prince in Jordan was a great friend of Cardinal Ratzinger.
00:27:04.040
And Jordan is a country that is officially Islamic.
00:27:12.600
That verifies what Paul VI, I think it's Paul VI who said,
00:27:17.480
the church looks on the face of every human being and sees Christ.
00:27:23.060
Even when that person doesn't know Christ or doesn't believe in Christ expressly,
00:27:30.720
many people will be pleasantly surprised when they reach heaven
00:27:34.440
because they will realize they are saved by the grace of Christ,
00:27:44.920
That is the sort of thing Cardinal Ratzinger was teaching.
00:27:48.400
If a person looks at the doctrine of Vatican II, paragraph 16, 17 of the document on the church,
00:27:57.880
salvation for those who may not expressly know Christ,
00:28:02.420
but they are looking for God with their whole heart and in all sincerity.
00:28:10.860
And we are not members of God's advisory council,
00:28:19.040
That would be much loved, I think, by all of our viewers
00:28:34.760
The blessing of Almighty God, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit descend on you
00:28:56.900
To see more like it, be sure to hit the subscribe button below to get all the latest content from LifeSite News.
00:29:02.460
Check the links in the description to read more and connect with us on social media
00:29:06.020
so that you can stay up to date with all the latest life, family, faith, and freedom news.