The John-Henry Westen Show - Private Revelations & Belief in God. Finding Answers When the Stakes Are High

00:00:00.000 There's nothing that could be less traditional than this belief, this modernist belief that

00:00:05.920 private revelation is optional, especially when it's directed at you. Our Lord is the Lord of

00:00:10.300 history and he doesn't send his mother just randomly. So that's why we have to take this

00:00:17.680 seriously. Hey my friends, I'm sure you've heard about private revelations. What we always hear

00:00:29.880 around is that all those revelations, Fatima and Lourdes and La Salette and Rudabach and all

00:00:38.880 these revelations from heaven, our lady came down from heaven, apparently you don't have to really

00:00:43.880 believe them. And therefore, if you don't believe them, you don't really have to do what they say

00:00:50.240 to do. They say you have to do the first Saturday devotion. But meh, if you're not called to believe

00:00:56.940 it really to be a Catholic, then do you really need to? There's going to be a super surprising

00:01:03.500 answer for you to that question. Stay tuned to this episode of the John Henry Weston Show.

00:01:10.820 Gene Zanetti and Fr. Francesco Giordano, so good to be with you both.

00:01:15.680 Hello, thank you for having us.

00:01:16.740 Let's begin, as you always do, with the sign of the cross. Father, if you wouldn't mind leading us.

00:01:21.120 In the name of the Father, in the Son, in the Holy Spirit. Amen.

00:01:24.200 Amen. So, first of all, if you can tell us just a little bit about who you are, just so that we know

00:01:30.640 as we're getting into this topic. Father, what will start with you?

00:01:34.680 Yes, I'm Fr. Francesco Giordano. I'm in Rome. And I'm the Director for Human Life International in the

00:01:42.540 Rome Office. And I also teach at various different universities in Rome in dogmatic theology and moral

00:01:50.900 theology. Yeah. With a background in Thomistic theology. Thank you, Father. Gene, what's your

00:01:57.540 background? Yes, I'm Gene Zanetti. I'm an apostle at Spiritual Strength, Building Athletes for Christ.

00:02:04.220 My business is Winning Mindset, a sports psychology company. My master's degrees are exercise science,

00:02:09.000 sports psychology, and school psychology. And most importantly, I'm a Catholic and husband and father

00:02:14.980 of three. All right. So, this is very interesting because this notion of, you know, private revelation

00:02:24.460 is private. We don't have to believe it. But that brings up some really weird questions because

00:02:30.720 then the rosary itself is from a private revelation. St. Dominic, is it not? Gene, why don't you give us

00:02:37.360 it first? Yeah, there's nothing that could be less traditional than this belief, this modernist belief

00:02:45.180 that private revelation is optional, especially when it's directed at you. Whenever heaven speaks,

00:02:51.380 heaven has a very clear purpose. And when heaven wants us to do something, we must comply. And that's

00:02:56.600 pretty basic when you think about it. You could ask that of an eight-year-old who made their first

00:03:00.440 holy communion. And unfortunately, we've been given a lot of false information. I mean, if you go up to

00:03:06.120 99% of Catholics, and I'm including priests too, they'll tell you private revelation is optional.

00:03:11.840 And when you look at what the church has said, what the manualists have said, and even what ecumenical

00:03:16.580 councils have said in the past, nothing could be less traditional.

00:03:19.660 Wow. Boy, that's some pretty strong stuff there. Father, do you concur with that? Is it

00:03:26.340 really weird? Like, you know, these private revelations where we sort of need to believe them?

00:03:33.260 Well, first, I think we need to define what we mean. So I think by universal revelations,

00:03:38.480 we mean the deposit of the faith. So that must be believed. And then private revelations,

00:03:47.340 essentially, that are approved by the church, those are there to help us believe what is the

00:03:53.760 deposit of faith. So that's sort of, I think, the important distinction. Because we believe as

00:04:00.040 Catholics that, obviously, that what our Lord said in Matthew 28, that he would not abandon us,

00:04:07.160 and that he would be there with us to the end of time. Or what we read in the John 9 texts,

00:04:12.440 that there's much more to be said than can be held in these books.

00:04:17.340 We are not a religion of the book. It's important to keep that in mind. So yes,

00:04:21.800 we do have a group of canonical texts that, by the way, were only officially, universally said as

00:04:29.760 such at Trent. Yes, we had particular councils like 397 in Carthage, those in the early,

00:04:38.200 that's the late fourth century with St. Augustine and all, that we started talking about canonical

00:04:44.080 text, canonicity of scripture. But it was not until Trent that that was actually made clear.

00:04:48.540 So you would get up to like 1500 years that we've got this, you know, we've got, we don't even have

00:04:53.720 it clear to find what are canonical texts, except for by a particular council. So that shows us that,

00:05:00.920 you know, there's a lot of elasticity in all of this. However, we are after Trent here. So we have

00:05:06.920 the canonical texts in scripture. And what is there to say for everything after or outside of those

00:05:13.360 texts? Well, that's the Holy Spirit speaking and speaking to us in, through his saints, through

00:05:19.440 mystical appearances, through mystical phenomena. As we see like people, like saints, like St.

00:05:25.800 Catherine of Siena, who, you know, with all of the power, God in her brought the Pope back to Rome

00:05:31.260 from Avignon. So that there is such powerful divine intervention by also by means, by human means is

00:05:39.800 something very much part and parcel to the history of the church. So on that note, I have to say, you

00:05:46.160 know, when you have a private revelation that is approved by the church, that is legitimately approved

00:05:52.880 by the church, such as what you mentioned, Rudevac in 1831, La Salette 1846, or Lourdes 1858, Fatima 1917.

00:06:05.160 When you have such, how, let's say they're not public revelation in the sense, they're private

00:06:11.320 revelations that are made public for all of us. Well, then I think we must pay attention. Our lady

00:06:17.440 doesn't just appear out of the blue for no reason. Let me give you a historical context to this. So

00:06:22.360 what is interesting about the three apparitions in France is that you've got a post-French 0.94

00:06:31.740 Revolution period. You've got Auguste Comte in 1822 writing a new religion, positivism. It's a new

00:06:40.280 science, a new religion of scientism. And, you know, there's, I'm reading right now a great book by

00:06:47.300 Michael Auger on, it's called The Immortal in You. And it talks about our soul, because we're living in

00:06:55.340 a society right now where science, natural science claims that there's no soul anymore. We have just

00:07:02.060 recently lived, you know, through the whole COVID situation where science was the last word, science,

00:07:08.620 science, science, natural science. But science, as we know, the word scientist itself appears in 1847

00:07:15.420 in English language. But science was there all throughout the past in philosophy. We can't say

00:07:21.460 that Aristotle was not a scientist. So what do we mean by science? We mean knowledge. Do we mean that

00:07:27.020 knowledge needs to be limited just to the mere natural, to the positivism of Auguste Comte? I think

00:07:33.340 not. And that's what happens with Our Lady's interventions in history in 1831 in Hudebach, where

00:07:41.580 she brings the miraculous medal to bear, the importance of the miraculous. There's something more to life

00:07:48.480 than just what you see, what you touch. There's a metaphysical. You know, I'm reading another book right

00:07:54.080 now also by Dietrich von Hildebrand called The New Tower of Babel. I mean, we live in a society that doesn't

00:08:01.560 believe in the metaphysical anymore. We have to remember that prior to the French Revolution, you had

00:08:07.040 Kant in 1782 writing on the critique of reason. You know, you have, it's all rationalism. It's all

00:08:16.020 nominalism. It's all a form of very superficial knowledge, essentially. And what we are preaching is a

00:08:22.120 knowledge that's metaphysical, that's deep, that looks at reality in the depths. And that's what you have

00:08:27.400 Hudebach. You have these miraculous medals. You have a touch of heaven. 1846, La Salette. Why? Why

00:08:35.020 does she emphasize so much, Our Lady in that point, the Sabbath? Well, because we're living in an

00:08:41.880 industrial society where every day is the same. Well, our Lord has always said, no, there needs to be a

00:08:47.920 time of rest, a time of meditation and contemplation on the Lord, on the Lord of Lords, the Lord who made

00:08:55.800 time, who made space. And so a recall to the basics act, to the basic commandments, the third

00:09:03.980 commandments, right? As you see, it's emphasizing what has already been publicly revealed. And 1858,

00:09:13.260 Our Lady of Lords, that's interesting. That year is interesting. 1854, we had declared the Immaculate

00:09:20.720 Conception dogmatically. 1858, she says she's been Immaculate Conception. And it's happening when?

00:09:27.340 The year before The Origin of Species by Darwin. You know, what is it about? It's about recreation,

00:09:36.280 which is similar to the Sabbath. What is the Sabbath? What is respite about? It's not just

00:09:40.320 resting and taking a vacation. When you have recreation in religious life, it's about recreating

00:09:47.000 the day and discussing the day that you've had, the time, the solace you've had in prayer with God,

00:09:51.380 you come together as a community and you talk about it. So it's a rest that is meditating upon

00:09:56.520 how God has worked in your life. And that's why we need the Sabbath. And that's why we need to

00:10:01.980 rethink about our origins. Because if you don't know the origins, you don't know the end. And we live

00:10:08.600 in a society also, philosophically speaking, that has, you know, we don't have the final cause.

00:10:13.820 We have, we look at efficient causality. We look at material causality. We've lost touch of

00:10:20.160 final causality and formal causality. We've lost touch with where we're from and where we're going.

00:10:26.280 And we've lost touch with the soul, with the formal cause. So in light of all that, looking at that

00:10:32.940 in a historical context, why are ladies appearing at all this? And then the emphasis of the church in

00:10:38.660 the 1850s and 1870s with, with the first Vatican council and in the Roman school with Perone and

00:10:45.640 others, other great scholars in Rome, Jesuit scholars who were discussing this, the importance

00:10:52.360 of divine revelation, because you can't, we can't have a life that's based just on mere positivism.

00:10:58.800 There has to be the supernatural. So the debates actually for about a hundred years until the, until

00:11:05.680 you know, 1950s, we have the debate of what is, what is the nature of the supernatural and its

00:11:11.600 intervention in our lives. And with that, you have 1917, you have this great, you have the great

00:11:16.640 apparitions of Our Lady of Fatima talk, calling us to do what? Penance and reparation, prayer and

00:11:22.440 reparation and penance. That's what the message is about really fundamentally. And pushing for that,

00:11:28.380 or else, or else there would be, there would be many, many, many punishments, divine punishments

00:11:37.180 scourged upon us. But the emphasis on the, on the penance and the prayer, and we look around us,

00:11:44.280 we look at a society that has really forgotten to pray and to do penance. And you see those messages,

00:11:49.640 they're all connected. It's like, it's an, it's a, it's a, if you look at the narrative of the message,

00:11:54.840 and you look at the reason for the message, and you look at it in light of what the church

00:11:58.280 is reflecting upon theologically, it all just simply makes sense. So in light of everything

00:12:03.460 I've just said, these messages are there to enrichen our faith, our tradition, to enrichen

00:12:10.300 our imagination, to enrichen our, our religious sense, to, to encourage us, to, to, to bring,

00:12:18.280 to, to encourage the, the will within us to desire God again. And, and for me, that's what

00:12:25.300 these messages do. They don't, they don't contradict to my faith. I mean, what, to pray

00:12:29.820 more, to, to read, to pray more the rosary, to pray the rosary, the five, the five first

00:12:33.920 Saturdays or the, or the, or the nine first Fridays. You know, I, I don't see what the

00:12:41.440 problem with that is. I mean, that's back to, back to also our Lord. I'm going to think

00:12:46.660 of another apparition in, in the 16, 1680, uh, with our, with our Lord and the Sacred Heart

00:12:54.120 appearing, uh, in, uh, to our, to St. Mark and Mariella Cook. When was that? Eight years

00:12:59.800 before the glorious revolution in England that eliminated Catholicism. These, our Lord and

00:13:07.220 Our Lady do not appear in just randomly. They are, let us not forget, our Lord is the Lord

00:13:12.800 of history. And he doesn't, he doesn't send our mother, his mother, uh, our mother just

00:13:18.580 randomly. So that's why we have to take these seriously. And if the church has approved them,

00:13:23.500 then, uh, it's not something you can just say, well, I'm not going to believe it. If you

00:13:27.500 don't, you're basically, I think you're, you're really, um, you, I think you can say you have

00:13:34.860 a bit of a dry faith. And I, I guess maybe I'm a little bit too Italian and I'd like to have 0.99

00:13:39.440 a little bit more imagination in my faith. So. Indeed. Thank you, Father. Uh, Gene, you were

00:13:44.900 saying that it is one of the greatest or, or most severe marks of what's going on today

00:13:50.140 in modern church history, this rejection of, uh, the necessity of believing and holding

00:13:56.680 to what's coming from heaven. Give us more of that. Right. Because we know that our Lord

00:14:02.060 and Our Lady have said in the apparitions of Fatima that only she can save us. This is

00:14:06.320 our only hope. And that if we do, if enough people, an unknown critical number, God always

00:14:12.160 uses a faithful remnant, a relatively small number of people who must execute his will

00:14:16.940 doing exactly what he says to merit a blessing for the entire world. And since this is the

00:14:22.900 answer for our time, we know this is something that, that, that has to be done. Our Lord and

00:14:27.300 Our Lady said only she can save us. So all of the problems of the world, everything, the crisis

00:14:32.220 in the world, the crisis in the church, it's all symptomatic of us not living the Fatima

00:14:37.620 message. That's why it's so devastating. So what really hit me like a slap in the face.

00:14:42.300 I remember reading the CDF document on the message of Fatima in 2000 by Cardinal Ratzinger, where

00:14:47.760 he, where he basically says that, um, I mean, I have the quote here. He says that, um, it's

00:14:53.400 basically, uh, private revelation can only be accepted with Catholic faith, with human

00:14:58.920 faith and never Catholic faith. All right. So human faith, if we hear private revelation, 0.90

00:15:04.980 we have to accept it on human faith and it's prudent to act. So it's good to do. We don't

00:15:08.920 have to do it. Right. And that always struck me as kind of odd. Why would God intervene in

00:15:13.260 history? Even when you look back in the Bible, the Jews had 613 commandments to fulfill, but 0.97

00:15:18.300 sometimes God would intervene in history and says, do something on top of the 613 commandments.

00:15:24.640 And if those few people don't do it, there's a massive punishment. So I knew this couldn't

00:15:29.600 be optional. How could this only be human faith? And then one of the things I was doing was

00:15:34.220 reading my spiritual theology manual by father Jordan Allman, spiritual theology. Father Ripperger

00:15:40.040 talks about this a lot. And then I read back also my other theological manual by father Antonio

00:15:45.640 Marin, which is 1954, the theology of Christian perfection. And they both give the same quote.

00:15:51.800 They said, if a private revelation contains a message for others, and it has been accepted

00:15:56.420 as an authentic revelation, those persons have an obligation to accept the truth of the revelation

00:16:01.740 and act upon it. And then when you read the other manuals, they're saying the same thing. So

00:16:06.700 when it's directed at you. So I went back to the source document that Cardinal Ratzinger quoted

00:16:12.760 in that CDF document. And indeed, it does say when private revelation is not directed at you,

00:16:20.060 it's only human faith, and it can never be understood with Catholic faith. But if you look

00:16:25.460 in that document, I don't know if you could see the book through my blurred screen, Heroic Virtue

00:16:30.180 Volume 3. If you look at the paragraph directly above where Cardinal Ratzinger quotes, it actually

00:16:36.500 speaks to more accurately to Fatima. What is to be said of those revelations that are directed

00:16:41.940 of you? And it says, to he to whom the private revelation is proposed and announced ought to

00:16:47.160 believe and obey the command or message of God. He is bound to believe God. So we can't

00:16:52.720 mix the categories. There's a big difference if the private revelation is directed at us,

00:16:58.080 which is almost never. And then when it's not directed at us. So as an example, when Our Lady

00:17:05.480 says to wear the miraculous medal, this is a rude debacle. Yes, it's prudent for us to do that.

00:17:11.820 We accept that at human faith. We're not obligated to do it. The people who Our Lady directs that

00:17:17.820 message at do need to do it. But when Our Lady of Fatima says, I'll perform a miracle so that all may

00:17:24.100 believe, this is a message for everyone. So that's how we know. And Pope John Paul II said this,

00:17:30.380 that Fatima imposes a commitment on the church. Pope Benedict XVI said the same thing. So we have

00:17:36.960 to take this serious. And it's not just merely a matter of human faith. It can't be Catholic faith 0.95

00:17:41.980 because it's not the deposit of faith. But there is a different area, divine faith, when it's just

00:17:48.200 specifically an approved private revelation and it's directed at you. And again, that almost never

00:17:53.140 happens. It's so rare. But when it does happen, you have to take heed. And the Fifth Lateran Council

00:17:58.800 says the same. So Father, this is going to get somewhat confusing because there's an issue of

00:18:06.920 private revelation that has been approved, those that aren't approved, because you got into it a

00:18:14.000 little bit. But there's more of a question because while Fatima was going on, while the miracles were

00:18:19.980 happening, while Our Lady of Lords was appearing, the miracles were happening. It wasn't approved.

00:18:26.200 Yet people went there, were healed there. A lot of people suggest, oh, if you go to something that's

00:18:34.140 not approved or you listen to it or whatever, you're sinning or it's dangerous. How do we suss that out?

00:18:39.520 Yeah, you cited it well. I remember in Lourdes, King Napoleon III, his son, our daughter, I think,

00:18:52.020 was sick and he didn't believe, he wanted to close the shrine completely. And then the child got healed.

00:19:00.580 So he changed his mind completely on this. So yes, while the acclaimed, or actually the actual

00:19:13.940 miracles are happening, the church observes and withholds judgments. So until the church has not

00:19:24.720 spoken, I don't see the problem with that. You know, I mean, there has to be, there has to be a

00:19:30.880 certain prudential judgment, of course. It's kind of complicated because the church needs their time

00:19:39.120 to reflect on, to reflect on the given apparitions. I mean, there are apparitions. There's one here near

00:19:45.500 Rome in Civitavecchia, where the bishop was initially very opposed to it, but then he put the

00:19:53.760 statue in his closet or something, and it started bleeding or something. And then he changed his

00:20:03.320 mind, you know, and the pope himself was involved in it. And I don't know exactly the status of this

00:20:08.400 revelation right now. But one of the things also that you see, well, I did study it a little bit,

00:20:16.060 and I met the people there. I went to see it. And what I noticed is that the people that are

00:20:22.980 involved in it are very normal, ordinary people. That's a key sign. So we also do have to look,

00:20:29.500 as the church is analyzing these situations, they basically look at what kind of people are involved

00:20:34.720 in it, you know. Are they, you know, just normal people with a job or whatever, simple people?

00:20:42.780 Usually it's simple people. Why? Because God does that. That's the kind of the approach that God

00:20:47.680 uses, you know, and they, not kind of, it is the approach that God uses to show that it's from him

00:20:52.100 and not from the person. So when you, you know, at the same time, also, you have to look at if it's

00:20:58.520 from God or the evil one. So there's also that. So the church needs their time to analyze and to

00:21:04.500 see, you know, to take into consideration, to observe. It takes time. But in the meantime,

00:21:12.240 yeah, I think that people can approach these sites, but with caution, I would say, you know,

00:21:20.880 and that's what's happening, for example, with Magigori. I think it's ongoing. Magigori is,

00:21:27.000 there's, it hasn't really closed yet. They've had a number of different commissions from Rome,

00:21:34.340 with the most recent one with Cardinal Arrini, and even Cardinal Ratzinger went there before he

00:21:39.300 became Pope, he went to see. And there's sort of a suspension of judgment on the situation,

00:21:44.060 because even there, it's, and there, there's a big history. For instance, that the actual place

00:21:52.180 in Magigori, there, these Franciscans go back in that, go back to the 1700s with some problems

00:21:58.580 that they had with, in terms of disobedience with Rome. So that's, that's part of the problem there.

00:22:06.080 Um, but then you have to wonder why, why this phenomenon, why Magigori, for instance, why,

00:22:12.260 why in the 1980s, all of a sudden, all these apparitions happened there. And it's a time also,

00:22:18.580 when it looks at that, it's also a time of, of confusion in the church. In the 1970s, the church,

00:22:24.740 60s and 70s, the church witnessed a great confusion. And so these, the human heart has a need for

00:22:31.900 something above, something more supernatural. So something that wasn't happening. And there

00:22:35.900 wasn't, um, a lot of Marian devotion taking place in the parishes anymore, uh, for instance. And so

00:22:42.100 people needed this, you know, they needed to go to these, they needed to believe in something like

00:22:46.500 this. Um, it's interesting also to look at that historically, historically, why, why Magigori,

00:22:53.080 you know, uh, here there's, uh, Radio Maria in Italy, uh, Padre Livio, the, the founder of the one

00:23:01.720 who's in charge of it. He's big proponent of it. At the same time, the bishops are very,

00:23:06.240 they don't know what to say. So it's one of these things where it's like, what, what's going on,

00:23:11.840 you know, and the Vatican itself has not spoken on this. Um, and so it's one of these phenomenons,

00:23:18.800 it's a 40 year, it's now over 40 years, this phenomenon, this situation. And, uh, we don't

00:23:24.500 have clarity and there's a lot of debates going on among theologians about it. There's a lot of

00:23:28.880 people, there are a lot of theologians I know who are disagreeing with it, who don't see the value,

00:23:33.660 who see some inconsistencies with it. Uh, for instance, the fact that Our Lady appears so much,

00:23:39.160 it's not typical to other, to other times. Um,

00:23:42.500 if I'm not mistaken, though, the Vatican did approve of parishes doing pilgrimages there,

00:23:49.220 even though it hasn't given its full stamp of approval.

00:23:52.340 Exactly. Things like that are happening. So it's just, it's kind of confusing, you know, and,

00:23:57.440 and, but now there's more and more of these operations coming up all over the place. And,

00:24:01.940 and, uh, and, and people in the Vatican is working on it. There are Mariologists who go over and see,

00:24:08.740 and, and see these sites. Uh, but I guess the question to be asked, the big question to be asked

00:24:14.060 is why is this happening so much? Why, why are there so many apparitions? Um, and what are we to do?

00:24:21.960 What, and I think it's a, I think it has to do with authority as well, the authority of the church.

00:24:27.040 And, and, and, um,

00:24:29.900 and there's a question of that in many people's minds and souls today. And,

00:24:37.920 and, um, what to do in a situation like this, you know, well, I think that's where we do have to,

00:24:46.760 to take seriously the authority of the church and, and, um,

00:24:53.200 and, and, and the church needs to take it, take it seriously and demonstrate, uh, um, that,

00:24:57.500 that she takes the, takes these things into consideration. I mean, there was a situation recently

00:25:02.740 here near, near, um, near Rome as well. Uh, I forget the place now it's, uh, what it's called again,

00:25:09.860 but I looked at it. I, I looked, I also followed this case and looked at it. And I understand why

00:25:16.280 the church in that situation is not speaking because in that situation, the church, the bishop

00:25:21.140 is being prudent because he's saying, well, if I speak in this situation, it's only going to create

00:25:25.960 more curiosity. So really in terms of the church's role in this, the church's authority,

00:25:31.180 she has to, to practice prudence in her judgments. Uh, and honestly, in this, in this one situation,

00:25:40.180 I, I, I, it was almost embarrassing to see, um, this TV, um, production on it. It really did. You

00:25:47.960 could see that they were making fun of, of the faith. And that was really a shame to see it

00:25:53.160 depicted as such, uh, because there was the, the quote unquote seer. She was involved with lots of

00:26:00.180 money. And also, usually when there's that involvement, then you know, that there's something

00:26:04.340 awry, uh, when people are making a lot of money off of it. Um, and so that's, and, and, and, and the

00:26:12.280 church, I guess the bishop there decided he preferred not to speak so as not to put more fuel on the fire,

00:26:19.380 you know? And I don't know. It's, it's not, it's a, it's not an easy question to your question.

00:26:25.880 How do people get it all? This is why I say in such situations, it's better to trust

00:26:30.260 what the church has already approved and follow that. And these are, I mean, to kind of keep a

00:26:38.020 distance in a sense, I think, you know, kind of look at it and like, sort of like what I'm doing

00:26:43.040 right now with Medjugorje, I, I look at it, I, I have a respectful distance from it. Um, because I

00:26:49.040 don't want to insult the people that are faithfully going there because there's a lot of, that's also

00:26:53.620 something to be also pastorally to take into consideration as a priest. I don't want to say

00:26:58.860 something that's totally offensive to people because if they go there and they have this experience

00:27:03.040 and they, and, and they start having a conversion because of it, well, then I must take something

00:27:10.100 into consideration. So at my role, I guess I'll conclude with this is really, I just use the word

00:27:16.300 conversion and conversion is in Latin. We, in group, we use the word metanoia in Greek. It's from the

00:27:23.720 Greek, the change of mentality. What is a conversion? What is a real conversion? And, and, and we understand

00:27:31.580 in theology that a conversion is something that takes time. It's not a fundamental option. JP too talks

00:27:39.040 about this in veritatis splendor. It's not something that just takes place. You have this conversion

00:27:44.600 and it's one, one day I met Jesus. That's it. I met her lady. That's it. Finished. And then you can do

00:27:50.180 whatever you want. No, a real conversion is something where it's tested in time with, with, with, uh,

00:27:56.960 with temptations, with different struggles. So when people go to, to Medjugorje and they come back,

00:28:02.660 as Alistair McIntyre says, we live in the epoch of emotivism. So they come back full of emotion.

00:28:07.580 What's a pastor supposed to do in a situation like that? Well, accept the good that's there

00:28:12.280 and see, and test it, test the spirit. See that, that it, that, that, that this is a real conversion.

00:28:18.960 See that this person is really willing to, to, to, to change in their ways and that they really have

00:28:25.620 a change of mentality, metanoia, and that they really want to love our Lord in everything they do

00:28:31.080 to the end of time, to the end of their lives. Then, then there's, then there's something there.

00:28:37.380 And then that's, that's where the pastoral role comes in for us. It's like to, to, um, to encourage,

00:28:43.260 you know, and what do we see in Medjugorje, for instance, is people going to confession, people

00:28:48.260 doing more, there's very, it's very Christotentric, a lot of confessions, a lot of adoration of our

00:28:53.340 Lord in the sacraments. Okay. Bring that to the, to your churches, bring that to your, to your, um,

00:28:59.760 parishes, bring that mentality of praying the rosary, of adoration, of frequent confession,

00:29:07.100 of reception of the Eucharist. If that's happening in the parishes, God bless you. That, that, that's,

00:29:12.300 that's a good thing.

00:29:12.940 Yes. I got from, uh, 1 Thessalonians, as you were speaking, I mean, it reminds of this verse here

00:29:20.740 from 1 Thessalonians, um, do not quench the spirit, do not treat prophecies with contempt,

00:29:27.600 but test them all, hold on to that which is good, reject every kind of evil. Um, Gene, tell us, um,

00:29:37.380 with regard to, uh, the already approved apparitions, particularly Fatima, as you said,

00:29:42.660 it's directed at the whole wide world. What is the severity, the, the need to engage in this right

00:29:50.000 now? It's huge. And all the confusion, it can be cleared up pretty simply. There's basically three

00:29:57.140 classes that we need to look at. There's unapproved private revelation. We got to just throw, we got

00:30:01.900 to just set that aside because that'll just confuse everyone, right? We should hold out until the church

00:30:06.720 gives the final approval. So we're speaking about, we talk about private revelation. We always mean

00:30:11.860 approved private revelation. Now, and we're in that category. There's only two, there's only two

00:30:16.760 classes there. Those messages that are directed at you and those messages that are not directed at you.

00:30:24.460 Almost none of the private revelations are, have, have an extra step on top of living a normal Catholic 0.91

00:30:30.520 life of holiness. Almost none of those messages have something that you were specifically required to

00:30:36.340 do. Fatima actually gives you specific steps to take on top of living the normal life of holiness

00:30:42.340 and being Catholic. And that's what, like we said before, the blue army pledge of, uh, first Saturday

00:30:48.960 devotion, wearing your Brown scapular as a sign of your consecration, offer up, offering, offering up

00:30:53.300 your sufferings and daily duties and praying the rosary every day. That was, that was written by a sister

00:30:58.900 Lucia herself. And immediately the Bishop of Fatima said, promulgate, this is coming from me.

00:31:04.240 This is light years different than Medjugorje or any of these non-approved private revelations.

00:31:09.480 So we don't want the listeners to get it twisted. This is approved private revelation that's directed

00:31:15.040 at you. And the fifth ladder in council back in 1516 actually talks about that. It says, and this is

00:31:21.860 the quote from the fifth ladder in council. If the Lord reveals to certain of them by some inspiration,

00:31:26.700 some future events in the church of God, as he promises by the prophet Amos. And as the apostle

00:31:32.820 Paul, the chief preacher says, do not quench the spirit, do not despise prophesying for we have no

00:31:39.300 wish for them to be counted with the other group of storytellers and liars or to be otherwise hindered.

00:31:45.980 So that's speaking directly there of what we said about unapproved private revelation.

00:31:50.740 And then the quote goes on to say, for as Ambrose bears witness, the grace of the spirit himself

00:31:56.440 is being extinguished. If fervor in those beginning to speak is quieted by contradiction in that case

00:32:03.000 or wrong is certainly done to the Holy spirit. That is, that is extremely powerful. And like we

00:32:09.540 said, apocalyptic, I can't even stress the importance of this because everything that we

00:32:14.880 see, the problems of the world, abortion problems in the liturgy problems with doctrine,

00:32:20.240 it is all symptomatic of us not doing what our lady of Fatima says. So we have to make this as

00:32:26.340 clear as possible for people cut through all the garbage of non-approved private revelation and say,

00:32:31.260 no, this is Fatima isn't. Let me, let me, let me stop you there. Um, you can't say that because you

00:32:38.500 can't call garbage all non-approved because as we said in the beginning, Fatima was unapproved when all

00:32:44.440 they went there. And if so, we tell them that was all garbage. Don't go. You'd be saying, don't go

00:32:49.560 to Fatima. You'd be saying, don't go to Fatima when the miracle of sun is happening. Don't go to

00:32:53.960 Lourdes when the miracles are happening. So it's not that they're garbage. It's that it's a different

00:32:59.880 category and that we can totally agree on. Right. Exactly. Exactly. Just as long as we have those

00:33:07.900 categories proper, then it makes sense. I just didn't want anyone to get confused that we want to know

00:33:12.980 that when something actually is approved, we really have to dial in and, you know, put on our

00:33:17.540 thinking caps and do those steps. In, in one category, the category of unapproved, we can go

00:33:25.140 there. We can look at it. We can, as father said, look at the fruits, look at the people who are

00:33:30.900 saying that they're receiving private revelation. Are they, are they normal Catholics? Are they just

00:33:36.380 faithful Catholics, uh, not making a mint of money off it? Or they, are they, you know, living 0.96

00:33:42.580 holy lives or trying to, that's all a matter of discernment. We take that with a, with a grain of

00:33:48.700 salt, if you will, of discernment. Once they're approved, there's no longer a question of, hmm,

00:33:55.100 I got to look at this and think what it, no, we're required to do what our, what Our Lady of Fatima,

00:34:00.680 uh, said that we need to do. And if we don't do that, we do that. We, we leave that out to our peril,

00:34:07.580 the peril of the church, uh, and our own spiritual lives as well. Father, we'll leave last take on to

00:34:14.200 you. Oh, well, no, there's, um, there's really a lot to be said about the, the, uh, the message of

00:34:23.160 Fatima and the, even you can talk about the whole consecration of Russia and all that. And so, but I,

00:34:29.700 we don't want to really get into all that right now. Um, but, but we do see, I know, I don't want

00:34:38.440 to get into that. There's a, there's a lot to be said on that point and that, that point about the

00:34:41.680 consecration of Russia. Um, Jean, might you, might you think to address that? Because that, that is a 0.71

00:34:48.320 huge issue with regard to Fatima. And, um, it, it, it remains like our Lady was super specific

00:34:58.120 on it needs to be done. And when the popes, different popes tried to do it, um, initially

00:35:03.100 even mentioning Russia, but not done with all the bishops, it was always, nope, not good enough.

00:35:07.660 Nope, not good enough. And so I don't know if you want to speak to that, Jean, but where are we at on

00:35:12.920 that score? And is there something lacking still there? Yeah, I, I, I try to focus on what's going

00:35:18.820 to unite everyone back to the whole, you know, the, the unite the clans. And we all know that when,

00:35:23.800 regardless of whether the consecration of Russia was done properly, we know that when enough

00:35:27.880 Catholics do what our Lady of Fatima asked to do, those, those steps of that blue army pledge,

00:35:33.100 then we'll see the triumph of the immaculate heart of Mary. So if that means the consecration

00:35:38.940 wasn't done and enough Catholics do the, the, the, um, blue army pledge, then the Pope will get the 0.50

00:35:44.480 grace to properly consecrate Russia. Or if Russia was already consecrated and still, we're still

00:35:50.780 missing the triumph of Mary. So clearly not enough Catholics have lived that blue army pledge. 0.61

00:35:55.860 Either way, it doesn't change our marching order. So what I like to do to try to be more,

00:36:00.220 you know, so every obviously bring everyone together, unite the clans. And that would be

00:36:04.620 make sure all of us do our part. And then we pray for the Pope and the bishops to do,

00:36:09.420 to do their part. And when enough people live the Fatima message, then we'll get the triumph. 0.86

00:36:14.760 We know we haven't seen the triumph that everyone can agree on. So let's, let's do our part in

00:36:19.600 contributing to that. Let's, let's, while people are thinking about this, what are the requirements?

00:36:24.140 Because I, I'm sure a lot of people right now are thinking, wait a minute, what are the requirements?

00:36:28.620 Tell us those please. Yes. So number one, it's offer up your daily duties and sufferings,

00:36:34.020 according to your state of life, where the Brown scapular is a sign of our consecration,

00:36:40.160 pray the rosary every day and the first Saturday devotion. So receiving communion on the first

00:36:47.220 Saturday, going to, going to confession, meditating for 15 minutes on one or more of the mysteries of

00:36:52.480 the rosary. What did I miss there? Communion, penance, Eucharist, rosary, and meditation,

00:37:00.720 the rosary, which you're doing every day anyway. And then, and the confession is within eight days

00:37:06.700 of the first Saturday, first Saturday of the month. Yes. And so when, when enough people do this,

00:37:13.920 that's when we'll finally see the triumph of the immaculate heart of Mary. So we can be sure not

00:37:18.780 enough people are, are taking that action. And this is, this is basically the key that unlocks the door

00:37:24.280 and there's no other way. There's no other solution. When sister Lucia wrote that pledge back

00:37:30.420 in 1946, the Bishop of Fatima immediately said, promulgate, this is coming from me. So it's,

00:37:37.080 you know, couldn't be more clear on marching orders. Let's unpack that a little bit. The, the grace 0.93

00:37:42.740 that's needed from heaven to bring about the triumph of the immaculate heart. This amazing period that

00:37:50.240 we're waiting for in human history, where Mary's immaculate heart will triumph over the forces of

00:37:57.460 evil for a time, but nonetheless, in a way that heaven's never had triumphed on earth before,

00:38:05.420 is promised to us and waiting for enough of us to do what was to be done. And yes, as you said,

00:38:13.420 Jane, in your, in your, uh, address that basically you have to do what it's addressed to you.

00:38:20.300 So the laity don't have to worry so much about the part of her message addressed to the Holy Father,

00:38:26.980 to the Pope. Um, that has to be done by them. But even in that, their grace to do that comes from

00:38:34.120 the laity fulfilling their part of the deal, which is this scapular, uh, the, the, the first five

00:38:41.480 Saturdays. And it is, you know, pretty simple, but a lot of people I've found anyway, even the daily

00:38:50.920 masters who are going to mass every day. So they're fulfilling the, uh, first Saturday devotion all by

00:38:55.880 itself. People, often those people are going to mass once every two weeks, which by the way,

00:39:01.160 will get you a plenary indulgence all the time, because then you're always within eight days

00:39:04.500 on either side of, uh, of, um, that necessity. But one of the things they skip, because most of

00:39:11.300 those guys say the daily rosary anyway, but what's often overlooked is that 15 minutes of

00:39:16.920 meditation apart from the rosary. It's not a two for one. You can't go, I prayed the rosary for 15

00:39:21.920 minutes. And so that counts for both. No, um, it is about meditation apart from the saying of the rosary

00:39:29.020 on the mysteries of the rosary. Um, in fact, a couple of years ago, I found that was so undone

00:39:37.260 by people, even when they wanted to, um, that I looked for a meditation, couldn't find one. So I

00:39:43.720 did one myself. So we put that out on life site every first Saturday. Um, and so hopefully that's

00:39:48.900 of help to people so that they can engage in this meditation. Follow your take. Uh, I I'm sorry.

00:39:55.720 Could I intervene right now? Yeah, please. Oh, thank you. I'm sorry. I didn't hear what you said.

00:40:00.600 I I'm glad about the last point you just made, um, is important because this is what, what you see

00:40:07.480 with the great spiritual masters like St. Teresa of Avila, who emphasized that this with her sisters,

00:40:14.420 this is what she was seeing as a problem that they were just praying the vocal prayers. And so in their

00:40:19.200 interior castle, she talks about this, you know, the, the vocal prayers of the first prayers,

00:40:23.220 they're important, but it's like, kind of like, it's like the, the, the meat and potatoes that

00:40:27.640 are there always for every meal that there was bread at every meal, let's say. And, uh, but then

00:40:33.300 there's going to be more and that's the meditation. That's the reflection. And another point that I

00:40:38.280 wanted to make comes from, uh, St. Teresa's little way, St. Teresa of this year is a little way.

00:40:44.520 And I'm going to use a citation from St. Thomas Aquinas first.

00:40:47.700 Actus credendi non terminator adenunciabile sed adrem. The act of belief does not terminate in what

00:40:55.800 is announced, but in the rest, in the thing. So the way that the, the, the, the saints teach us so

00:41:02.620 much about the rest, the thing that the, the heart of the matter is in the sanctity of the, of the

00:41:09.920 moment and of the thing of the little way, essentially, you know, oftentimes people think, well,

00:41:14.580 the little way it sounds so banal. No, because living intensely, the presence of God in your

00:41:20.800 life, living intensely, the rosary, living intensely with contemplation, everything that is

00:41:25.580 asked, that's very simple, but you live it with intensity, with love, because you have to have

00:41:32.100 love. You have to have a conversion of heart. You're not going to be going to heaven just for

00:41:36.400 the, what, you know, the demons know a lot and they don't have, but they don't have love.

00:41:40.300 They don't have, the will is not there. St. Francis of Sales once asked,

00:41:43.980 was once asked, is, is it enough? How am I to love God? He said, do you want to love him? And

00:41:51.760 the person said, yes, then that's the beginning because then the grace of God can come in that

00:41:57.620 grace, which is the qualitative entity that comes in and comes in and changes you, forms you, transforms

00:42:03.980 you. That comes into the, the heart of each moment of your life. And if we learn to live life like

00:42:10.560 that, you know, we live life so that we see, you know, that we, we see how every moment of our life

00:42:18.440 is a moment of conversion, is a moment of changes. And we see that there's a constant conversation

00:42:26.360 with God. Also there's a constant conversation with God. I also like John Henry, what you said

00:42:30.540 about, you know, how you offer, like you offer your day, you offer the 15 minutes after a communion

00:42:39.780 when you've received the Eucharist. Those are very important moments, the beginning of the day,

00:42:44.580 the end of the day, when you receive in preparation for mass. And when you receive communion,

00:42:50.560 when you've got Jesus within you, that concreteness is so important because it's getting used to that.

00:42:58.000 That's going to, that's going to have a lot of meaning later on because we have to prepare

00:43:03.320 ourselves just like the, the, the prudent virgins in Matthew 25. We have to prepare ourselves for when

00:43:08.820 our bride comes, excuse me, for when the groom comes, the bride needs to prepare for when the groom 0.97

00:43:14.340 comes, you know, and, and that takes preserving, preserving those oils, which is the oils of grace

00:43:23.120 that God has there for us, spending our life doing that because so much of, of what, of our salvation

00:43:30.300 depends on how we die. And so you want to prepare yourself for that moment. And, and you can't just,

00:43:37.760 you know, you can't just expect, uh, to be ready, you know, uh, without given, uh, preparation without

00:43:45.340 the love that's there and, and asking like, you know, St. Joseph helped with the holy death and all

00:43:50.780 that, all of these things, all of these, uh, all the teachings of the saints, all the teachings of

00:43:59.680 theology, all the teachings of spiritual theology at that have to serve at the Saros animarum, for the

00:44:06.880 salvation of souls and of concrete souls, because in the end of the day, it's a, it's your salvation

00:44:14.740 that's at stake, your individual salvation that you have come to by yourself, of course, but also

00:44:22.520 with the help of, of, of those around you. You know, um, there was a passage in Luke chapter four,

00:44:30.580 I believe, um, where it was just a recent passage in the liturgy, uh, where Jesus, um, the,

00:44:39.320 the people of Nazareth were asking him to make a miracle. He said, no, I'm going to make a miracle.

00:44:45.120 And he talks about, uh, the, uh, the, the miracle of the Syrian and the, uh, I think it was

00:44:53.700 Amin in the, in the, in the, in the river Jordan that he comes into Syria with the leprosy. And he 0.96

00:45:00.320 says that, he says that that person came in with faith that, and, or also the woman with a hemorrhage

00:45:07.580 that touches him. She feels, you know, that's the beginning in the, in the Catechism of the Catholic

00:45:11.100 Church, the, the addition from 1990, you see that the message of the sacraments begins with this,

00:45:19.060 the, the, uh, an image of the hemorrhage, the woman with a hemorrhage touching Jesus. She doesn't

00:45:25.200 touch him like everyone else touches him. She touches him with faith. She touches him with

00:45:31.260 intention. So the object, the intention, and the circumstances come into the moral act.

00:45:35.980 And what is the intention with which you begin your day? What is the intention with which you do

00:45:40.680 each little thing? And then will our Lord Jesus Christ come into contact with you? And that's,

00:45:46.980 that's the importance of the sacraments, the contact with Christ. And, and that's what all

00:45:51.840 of this ends up leading us to. And, uh, if our lady has said that for greater contact with Christ,

00:45:57.180 you need to do, uh, those precepts, do them, do them with that same love though, with that same

00:46:03.700 intensity, with that same intention. And, and that's the, that's the little way. And then one last note on

00:46:09.980 this, the little way are, when St. Teresa developed this in her own life, and she was

00:46:16.860 not a pushover, uh, easygoing kind of person. She was very choleric actually. So a 50, a 15 year

00:46:23.120 old that goes to the, to see the Pope in order to get permission to get into the Carmel is not a

00:46:26.980 pushover. So she was a very tough girl. And, um, and, and so we have to listen to what she says to,

00:46:34.340 and she was having trouble because the Jansenist in the Jansenist France, um, the, the, it was also

00:46:41.000 always talking about hell, hell, hell, which is great. It's great though, for those that are, you

00:46:46.920 know, that are, that are having a, that are having, that are taking it easy, that have too much

00:46:50.960 acedia, you know, that, that, that are, don't, don't have a very intense spiritual life. But for

00:46:56.580 someone as scrupulous as she, or someone as scrupulous as Saving Nations of Loyola, you need to have 0.55

00:47:03.240 something to encourage you. You can't be constantly be battered over with hell, hell, hell, hell, hell.

00:47:07.200 And, um, and I had an experience like this reading her last week. I'd read, I'd read her after reading

00:47:14.880 the dreams of St. John Bosco, uh, to the, to the, to about his, the boys going to hell. And I was like,

00:47:22.780 oh, I was just feeling down because I was thinking like, oh, she's so easy to go to hell. And it is, I

00:47:27.780 mean, it's so easy to go to hell, so easy to go to purgatory, uh, very quickly. Going, going to heaven is not

00:47:34.300 easy. And, you know, reading St. Pio Patricina, son, son, uh, Nicola Tolentino, I mean, all the

00:47:41.560 saints in Italy, there's so many of these saints that bring, really bring out how hard it is to go

00:47:46.180 to heaven, you know, and for us priests, you know, it's really, it's heavy for us. So I was kind of

00:47:51.440 like a little bit overwhelmed last week as a priest thinking, my gosh, I've got so many souls. I've got

00:47:56.320 everything I say, everything I got to be careful. And then this, this really hit me, you know, and

00:48:04.440 it made sense theologically, you know, um, because it made sense that it's on the concrete. So if I can

00:48:11.620 do a lot, if I can make of the little, if I can make of what is natural, supernatural, if I can make

00:48:20.660 of what is ordinary, extraordinary, if I can be artistic about my faith in a sense, to be creative

00:48:26.980 with it, all the better, all the better. And it gives me a lot of hope, you know? And so, um, St.

00:48:34.740 Thomas Aquinas on this, I'll conclude with this. He says that, uh, sometimes there's something positive

00:48:40.660 about anger. And he says, it's positive when you're, when it's justified, obviously, you know,

00:48:47.440 when it's justified, when it's, uh, when it's quick, when it's, uh, proportionate, unlike the

00:48:56.060 anger of the devil to our Lord, which is not justified, which is not quick and was not proportionate

00:49:00.320 as you see in the passion. But this is also there because it's there to give us hope. Because if you

00:49:06.840 have, if you have, you are, if you're going to fight for something, something concrete, something

00:49:12.440 reachable, then you have hope. And so in the spiritual life, we must have hope. We must use

00:49:18.720 our, our, our strength for that. Father, thank you for that. Gene, last word over to you.

00:49:27.000 Yeah, just, you know, with all the confusion, all the crisis in the world, in the church, this is,

00:49:30.980 this is our one answer. This is the, this is the only answer that, that heaven willed to give us. So

00:49:35.480 it's not like we're making it up on our own. And that is the Blue Army Pledge. It's been the answer

00:49:40.840 since the time of Our Lady of Fatima. So make sure we're enrolled in the brown scapular, 1.00

00:49:45.380 where the brown scapular is the sign of our consecration, pray the rosary, offer up our

00:49:50.500 sufferings and daily duties, and the first Saturday devotion, and make it as frequently as possible,

00:49:55.360 and then get as many people to do it. When, when an unknown number, a specific number that's

00:50:01.540 predetermined by heaven does this, then we'll get the triumph of the Immaculate Heart of Mary.

00:50:06.320 So more than anything else, now Catholics need a clear direction, a firm purpose, 1.00

00:50:11.140 and a means of achieving that purpose. And that's what the message of Fatima is all about.

00:50:15.280 And that's how we're going to save the world. Amen. Well, you've got your marching orders.

00:50:20.840 Thank you so much, Gene. Thank you, Father Giordano, for being with us.

00:50:25.060 Thank you. And God bless you all. And we'll see you next time.

00:50:36.320 Thank you.

The John-Henry Westen Show - March 28, 2024

Private Revelations & Belief in God. Finding Answers When the Stakes Are High

Episode Stats

Summary

Transcript