Ralph Martin explains steps needed to fix ‘terrible’ situation in the Church
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Summary
In this episode, Dr. Ralph Martin talks with Dr. John Henry Weston about his new book, Crisis in the Church, a book that examines the forces working to undermine the body of Christ, and the way out. Dr. Martin is a professor of theology at the Sacred Heart Seminary in Detroit, a consulter to the Pontifical Council for the New Evangelization, appointed by Pope Benedict XVI, and a father of six children. He is the author of many books, including this one, A Church in Crisis, which deals with Pope Francis and what s going on in the church today.
Transcript
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Hello and welcome to this episode of the John Henry Weston Show, where I am very pleased
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to be bringing to you Dr. Ralph Martin, the head of Renewal Ministries, an organization
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He's a professor of theology at Sacred Heart, major seminary in Detroit.
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He's a consulter to the Pontifical Council for the New Evangelization, appointed there by
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He's the author of many books, including this one called A Church in Crisis, which we're going
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It examines the forces working to undermine the body of Christ, and it deals with Pope
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Francis, what's going on in the church today in terms of our crisis and the way out.
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Dr. Martin, welcome to the John Henry Weston Show.
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As you know, I really admire the courageous work that you're doing.
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Let's begin, as we always do, at the sign of the cross.
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In the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit.
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Well, Dr. Martin, as I said at the outset to this program, it's a real pleasure for me
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You've been very influential in my life, the life of millions of Catholics around the world
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who have looked to you not only for the clarity of what's going on with church teaching, but
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also for a close, intimate relationship with our Lord.
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Your book, your new book, A Crisis in the Church, is very important.
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It's really important for everyone to read right now.
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You give a snapshot of what's actually going on in the church with great fearlessness.
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You say what's going on, you analyze it, you give what I think is the underlying cause for
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much of the crisis, and then in the end, you give us a hopeful pathway forward.
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And if you don't mind starting with probably the most difficult one, it would be what's
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going on in the church today, particularly in Rome.
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You know, when I wrote the first book back in the early 80s, it's called A Crisis in Truth,
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with the attack on faith, morality, and mission in the Catholic Church.
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I had just returned from living in Belgium for four years, and I had really gotten in
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touch with a lot of what was happening in theology, and I was really kind of really shocked
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at how Catholic theologians were writing articles and issuing reports that, well, maybe, you
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know, there's some loopholes here in sexual morality, and, you know, maybe if people really
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love each other, it's okay, and all that kind of stuff.
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And then I was also running into Catholic missionary orders who were really reshaping their traditional
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missionary work of bringing people to Christ and the church to human development, and almost
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feeling like they didn't really believe anymore that people really needed to be converted,
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And so I wrote the book, and I think it did help a lot of people.
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But then I thought, as John Paul II carried on his pontificate, and then as Pope Benedict followed
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him, I really thought, and a lot of us thought, that a lot of these issues have been settled,
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you know, that we really were back on a good keel, and we had reaffirmed, you know, very
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taught to splendor and other tremendous documents of John Paul II that, you know, morality, there
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are some moral absolutes and things like that, and that we do need to preach the gospel to
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But then, you know, I hate to say this, but when Pope Francis got elected, over the first
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couple of years, things began to move in a different direction, and one of the ways in
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which I kind of first felt like something was up was I was asked to give a talk at a
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conference at Georgetown University celebrating the Second Vatican Council's anniversary, the
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50th anniversary, and I was quite surprised what I found there.
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Cardinal Casper was the keynote speaker who has such a strong influence on Pope Francis
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and the sentence on the family, and that document of Maurice Letiziae that's caused so much division
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And then the other speakers were quite interesting.
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Fr. Charles Curran, who is like the leading dissenter on Humanae Vitae, had to leave Catholic
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He's teaching at Southern Methodist University now.
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Fr. Roger Haidt, Fr. Peter Fahn, both of whom were corrected by the Congregation for the Doctrine
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And then in my part of the conference where I was asked to talk about what Vatican II actually
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teaches about the possibility of people being saved without hearing the gospel, based on
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And then a Dominican priest from Canada, I'm sorry to say, a Dominican priest from Canada
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who's in charge of evangelization for some big thing, gave a talk.
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And he proposed that we have a moratorium on evangelization and just do interreligious
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And after a couple of years went by, I felt like, gee, those people at Georgetown knew something
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was going to happen in Pope Francis's pontificate that I didn't know, you know, that it made
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me give credence to the whole St. Gallen kind of story about people who wanted to change
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the direction of the church were really lobbying for his election.
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And now I completely believe he's the legitimately elected Pope.
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And I'm not in that camp where people reject him as the Pope.
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I think he deserves respect as the successor of St. Peter and respect as a person.
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I teach one of his documents in my seminary class, Evangelii Gaudium.
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But we have a terrible situation right now where cardinals are attacking cardinals and
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bishops are attacking bishops and whole Episcopal conferences are disagreeing with each other
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Well, what I love is that you are so grounded in the Holy Scriptures.
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You have them not only in your mind, but in your heart.
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And so you know very well that, you know, St. Paul, right at the beginning of the church,
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took up St. Peter to the faith in public because he knew there was a danger to the faith.
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And I think you've seen from your book that danger to the faith in a very real way.
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I tried to write a book that would be honest about the confusions because a lot of people
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try to paper it over and say, oh, no, it's the media who's distorting things.
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The media does distort things, but things are happening that are objectively just really,
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And so I felt like I needed to be honest, but respectful at the same time and just try
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to clarify what, what the Catholic faith really is.
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And even though the book's only been out for a month, people have told me it's really helped
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them quite a bit, kind of get their heads clear and feel like, yeah, bad stuff is going
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The Catholic church is still a church he's founded.
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And, you know, people sometimes ask me, Ralph, are you discouraged?
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But we need to remember also that nothing, none of this is happening apart from the providence
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That, and there's nothing that God permits that he doesn't have a plan for bringing good
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And I wonder whether he doesn't want the stuff that's been under the surface all these years.
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We didn't know it was still under the surface, but it was under the surface, and it's coming
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I'm thinking that maybe the Lord's permitting it to come out so that the righteous can be
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vindicated, the true doctrine can be confirmed, and those who persist in subverting the faith
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can be identified, and we can have a purified church.
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Hmm, that's a very interesting thought, because that gives, it's true, it exemplifies the truth
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that our Lord, this is in the permissive will of our Lord, and what the plan is, and there's
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Just last week, Pew released a poll showing that the percentages of Catholics who actually
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believe in, have no problem with homosexuality, same-sex marriage kind of thing, are percentages
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They talk about the Netherlands in the 90 percentage, in fact, over 90% in the Netherlands and in
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other countries are approving of things like homosexual marriage.
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Just a couple months ago, we had Pope Francis come out with a statement on same-sex civil
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He made that statement, of course, previously, was previously taped.
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However, released now, the Vatican tried to do a song and dance about it, but in the end,
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a lot of people had to admit, wait a minute, his words were very clear.
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He did endorse same-sex civil unions, not marriage, and that came out.
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We've heard from Catholics who entered the church from homosexual lifestyles and left those
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It really was like a stab in the heart from the Pope himself.
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And I have to say that when I talk to people around who I know who are very balanced people,
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what they tell me is that it does look like those around the Pope and the Pope want to
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You know, probably out of good motives, but really a bad thing to do, you know?
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And it's sort of this whole thing about we don't want to alienate ourselves from contemporary
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You know, we need to accommodate ourselves more to the culture.
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And then, you know, the culture is putting a lot of pressure on the church today.
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A lot of priests and bishops are intimidated to speak about the truth about these things
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You know, if you talk about the truth about sexual morality, for example, you'll be called
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hate haters and hate speakers and things like that.
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And so a lot of bishops and a lot of priests, when these texts come up in the liturgy, which
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they come up all the time about the final judgment, about the need for salvation, about how sexual
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sin can actually exclude us from the kingdom of God.
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You know, 1 Corinthians chapter 6, Paul says, don't let anybody deceive you.
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The immoral will not enter the kingdom of God, the fornicator, the adulterer, the person
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who engages in homosexual activity, the thief, the robber, the drunkard, so on and so forth.
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And these are things about people's salvation, but we're being intimidated to be silent about
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them because of fear from the culture, but also fear from within the church.
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Because we know, just like you said, that a lot of Catholics have gone over to the world.
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You know, even Catholics who are coming to church on Sunday sometimes aren't coming with
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the mind of Christ and the spirit of God, but they're coming with the mind of the world
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I was just talking to a really good priest who said he just couldn't stop.
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He couldn't keep silent any longer about sexual reality.
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And when he did, four people stood up and walked out.
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And we got to be willing to speak the truth and take the consequences.
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But the longer we delay in speaking the truth, the worse it's going to get.
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And how much worse can it get when so many of our people have already exchanged the truth
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So I think you've now hit upon the key that underlies so much of this, the reality of the
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real consequences of sin and the notion of universalism or that everyone is saved.
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No one's going to hell, the empty hell theory, as some people call it.
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All of that has been much of a focus of your life, perhaps unintentionally so.
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But, you know, you've really been a lightning rod on that, maintaining the truth of Christ,
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maintaining the truth of the scriptures that Jesus himself revealed over and over and over
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And yet I find it, it's so incredible because that belief in universal salvation, that belief
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that really nobody's going to hell does allow for anyone to allow anything.
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Because, you know, really, if we're all going to hell and these two guys love each other,
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Why do we have to browbeat them into, no, you can't do that.
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Because we're all going to heaven in the end anyway.
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Do we have to get it when it's so, so psychologically hurtful for them?
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And so if you don't mind addressing that, I think really the key.
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And if I were to describe how many of our fellow Catholics look at the world today, I'd
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Broad and wide is the way that leads to heaven.
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But narrow is the door and difficult the road that leads to hell.
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Now, we know what's wrong with this picture, don't we, John Henry?
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It's just the opposite of what Jesus himself says.
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Broad and wide is the way that leads to destruction.
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Narrow is the door and difficult the road that leads to life.
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Now, we know this isn't how the Lord wants it to be.
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We know that God wills that the whole human race be saved and come to a knowledge of the
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But people have to come to a knowledge of the truth and respond to it with faith and repentance
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People ask Jesus, will there be few in number who are saved?
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Now, Jesus doesn't answer like we might think, saying, oh, chill, guys.
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You know, don't you remember your scripture classes?
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He says, try very hard to enter by the narrow door, because many, I tell you, will not be
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Now, he goes on to say that an outcry happens in the streets.
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He says, you know, what do you mean, you know, what do you mean that we're not going
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And he says, you know, depart from me, you evil ones, because, you know, you heard my
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You went to my healing services, but you didn't enter into a relationship with me.
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You didn't believe who I was and what I was saying.
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So when the door closes, only those are going to be inside are those who have responded to
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And there's the outside with weeping and gnashing of teeth.
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And it's in Vatican Council, too, although most people don't know that, you know.
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I wrote a whole book on that called Will Many Be Saved and what Vatican II actually teaches
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Vatican II does teach that it's possible under certain stiff conditions.
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It's possible for people to come in contact with the grace of Christ without hearing his
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But it's very difficult, and very often it doesn't happen because people give in to the
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They give in to the lies of the devil, and they desperately need to hear the gospel.
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People are not better off for not hearing the gospel.
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I mean, this ties back so much to where the worldly in the church have gone, even among
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bishops and theologians and so on, they've gone to points of repudiating, well, repudiating
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Or that, like you mentioned, that one theologian who talked about, let's abandon evangelization
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and just talk about inner religious dialogue or ecumenism or whatever.
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A false kind of ecumenism that doesn't call people to come into contact with, make relationship
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One that just basically says, oh, you're all good anyhow.
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We just have to talk about living in peace and joy and all wonderful.
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Deadly stuff when it comes to the real consequences.
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The one which, as you just explained, Jesus said over and over and over again, much to the
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In fact, it reminds me of a statement from Penn Jillette, one of the most famous atheists
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He actually said, listening to the true teaching of the church, said, well, if you believe that
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hell's a real thing or that eternal life is possible and you're not willing to tell people
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that because it's impolite or politically incorrect, how much do you have to hate somebody
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How much do you have to hate somebody to believe that eternal life is possible and not tell
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And to me, that's some of the most convicting words I've ever heard on the subject at all.
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And yet they come out of the mouth of an atheist who, a very famous atheist, who, you know,
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really, I think, gives the, really should make all Catholics take a second look at what
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And I think what it does, it shows us that there's a lack of faith underneath the surface
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that a lot of people don't really believe what the church teaches, what Jesus says.
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I think it's rooted in skepticism about scripture.
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Like chapter two in the book, I said, is there a solid place to stand?
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Chapter one, I talk about the whole range of problems.
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And I think it starts with people not really sure how we could take the words of Jesus.
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I've heard scripture scholars say this and that about it type of thing.
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And then you do have people in Rome, like the head of the Jesuit order, saying things
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like when he was asked about divorce and remarriage and what Jesus said about it.
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He said, well, were you there with a tape recorder?
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Well, and what is that going to do to Catholic people?
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I mean, it's like, gee, maybe we don't really know what Jesus said.
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Maybe we can't really trust the apostles' writings.
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And so I think one of the top priorities for us is to recover our confidence in the inspired,
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inerrant word of God and approach it just like the church asked us to approach it.
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Like in Vatican II and the Constitution of the Sacred Revelation, section 11, it says,
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everything asserted by the sacred authors should be considered to be asserted by the Holy Spirit
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and to teach firmly, faithfully, and without error those truths that God wished to consign
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to the sacred writings for the sake of our salvation.
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We need to pay attention to the word of God for the sake of our salvation,
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and we need to share it with others for the sake of their salvation.
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All these terrible statistics aren't just numbers.
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You know, unless they repent, unless they return, there's a very good chance that they're going
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And so the urgency of evangelization completely drains away when you don't believe the word
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You know, can I just show people the cover of the book?
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It's called The Church in Crisis, Pathways Forward.
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And on the cover is the Cathedral of Notre Dame burning, which I think shocked the whole world.
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And I just felt like the Lord wanted that on the cover because shortly after we decided
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on this for the cover, I'm working with the bishop's committee in the United States, the
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subcommittee on the catechism, I'm a consulter.
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And shortly after we chose that as the cover, one of the high officials there said, the church
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It says hundreds of parishes are going to be closing, hundreds of churches, parishes
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are going to be closing, hundreds of schools are going to be closing, more dioceses are
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It's like the Lord saying, something radical has to happen.
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We have to really get into more fundamental reform and repentance than we're really thinking
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It might say the same love that you have in your heart for our Lord and the sacred scriptures,
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our Lord, knowing that when we're reading his words in Holy Writ in the Holy Bible, we're
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reading him and it should engender such an awesome love in also that evangelical or apostolic
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spirit to go out and share the truth of Christ with all of your friends, your family, all those
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whom you love, you, you, they have the possibility to have eternal life.
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And I could say even more than that, to have this awesome relationship with our Lord and
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Savior, the King of Kings, the Lord of Lords, who loves them and wants them and is knocking
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Anyway, let's, let's talk about your, not prognostication, but your hope for the future.
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Well, my hope for the future is not based on false optimism.
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Uh, in some ways, a lot of ways in the church today, because people sense how difficult things
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So they say things like we have a vibrant, thriving church.
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We don't have a vibrant, thriving church, you know, and, and so there's like this official
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And as long as we keep that false optimism going, we're, we're not going to be able to really
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look at what's wrong and really come up with measures that would really address the depth
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So, you know, the second half of the book, like you said, is the first half of the book
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Second half of the book is seven chapters talking about pathways forward.
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The first, the first chapter and the second part of the book is called, we got to be real.
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The next chapter is when we get over our false optimism and really look what's wrong.
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Um, we need some pretty deep repentance, you know, all of us.
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And so the book's not just directed towards leaders, but it's, it's, it's all of us, but
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I do, I do put in there something that was really encouraging in the Archdiocese of Detroit,
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where I teach in the seminary, uh, the Archbishop Vigneron, who's now the vice president of the
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bishops conference, uh, uh, he said, we really need to have a solemn liturgy of repentance
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before we can expect to change the whole direction of the archdiocese, uh, towards evangelization.
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So he had a very serious, solemn liturgy of repentance where he repented on behalf of
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the archdiocese and the leadership of the archdiocese, which was some really significant
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And that's hard for bishops to do to say, we have really allowed false teaching to happen
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And we have, we've been afraid to tell the truth to people.
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And he, he repented for a number of really, really serious things.
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Of course, the words of John the Baptist come to mind saying, uh, bear the fruits of repentance,
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you know, actually live out what you repented for and not just go on without really doing
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the deep cleansing that really needs to happen.
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And, and there's like a whole examination of conscience in that chapter that we all can use
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about all the areas that we've been responsible for.
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And we need to ask the Lord, am I, am I in those situations as real disciples of Christ?
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Like I should, am I really praying and fasting like I should?
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Am I really caring about the salvation of souls?
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Am I myself kind of still straddling two, two worlds?
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You know, there's a, there's a chapter in the book called stop straddling the issue.
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You know, the prophet Elijah, you know, told the Jewish people, you, you've got to foot
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both camps, you got to get out of Baal's camp and get into the Lord's camp.
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And so there's a lot of the church, a lot of us that have been straddling the issue.
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We're sort of made little accommodations, little exceptions, you know, carving out little,
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little areas for us where maybe we think since I'm basically a good person,
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it's okay to indulge myself in this, that, or the other thing.
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We need to have a church that continues to live a repentant life.
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Now we, we, we need to have this great awakening in our own lives.
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We are in a, in a battle in the church, but also personally in a battle.
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We have more temptation to sin probably thrown at us today than ever before in history.
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It, it, it not only, uh, is there for your taking, it, it comes to you and knocks at your
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door, um, in, in a way that couldn't have been imagined before.
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Um, what helps are there for people today's in this, in the midst of the, even, even the
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All the stuff is going on in politics and the church and whatnot, but in terms of that
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personal struggle where it's really hitting us in our own souls, what's our help there?
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Scripture says, fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom.
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We have to understand that if we really want to be one with God, we have to be changed.
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You know, like when the prophet Isaiah was being called to his mission, he said, I'm a
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And then the angel kind of took the coal and cleansed them.
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When Peter really realized who God was and he had the fear of the Lord, when he saw the
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So the Lord is willing to take our uncleanness, to take our sins and to little by little over
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a period of time, bring healing to our soul, be deliverance to us, uh, clarity to our mind
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Don't be afraid of those who can kill the body, but be afraid of those who can cast you
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Now, a lot of people say today, you don't want to scare people with hell.
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You know, that's not a worthy motive, but honestly, the Lord thinks it's a worthy motive.
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Lord tells us to be afraid of what could lead us to hell.
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Well, St. Ignatius of Loyola, St. Teresa of Avila and all the saints talk about how that
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kind of fear is a good way of starting the spiritual life.
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And it's even good in higher stages of the spiritual life to remember that when we're
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You know, so fear of the Lord, respect for God, understanding the incompatibility of sin
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with his holiness, and then practical measures.
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I don't see how anybody can even have a hope of surviving as a Catholic today if they're
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not taking some time each day for personal prayer and meditation on the word of God.
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You know, so, you know, anybody who's watching or listening, I would just say, if you're not
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taking some time each day to feed your soul, to pay attention to the Lord, to kind of point
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in his direction, even if you're dry, even if you're tired, even if you're distracted,
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even if you feel like you don't have a spiritual thought in your body, just be there and face
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And if adoration is available in your area, go to that type of thing.
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You know, I find it helpful to use this little kind of monthly thing called Magnificat, you
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know, where it has daily readings of the mass and a little morning prayer and a place
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for intercessions and a life of the saint and meditation.
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You know, if I come to prayer and I'm feeling like prayerful, I'll just be with the Lord.
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I'll just try to kind of welcome him into my soul and just try to listen to him.
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But if I'm feeling kind of dry, I'll pick up Magnificat and that helps me start to get
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It helps me get focused type of thing and spiritual reading.
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I know you mentioned, you know, one of the books I wrote was called The Fulfillment
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of All Desire, a guidebook for the journey to God based on the wisdom of the saints.
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And I wanted to know as much as you could know that the Catholic Church knew about the
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And as I began to read these different doctors of the church, I said, you know, they're
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They're all talking about the Holy Spirit cleansing and healing and uniting the human soul
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And if we could ever put all this wisdom together into an orderly, clear way, we'd
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have the best wisdom that God has given to the church through these great doctors of
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But that would be a good spiritual book for people to read.
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In fact, we're doing an Advent, four-week Advent mission right now where I'm going to
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be doing four talks on four Sundays and Lent on themes from the book.
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And people could just go to RenewalMinistries.net and register for it.
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So anyway, yeah, yeah, we have to take heed lest we fall, lest we're so concerned with
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We're not taking concern about what's happening in here.
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The work I'm doing is dangerous because when you look at the evil, when you look at the
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problems in the church, it's easy for it to do something to your spirit that isn't
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And so we need to keep, keep in the presence of the Lord, keep in his love.
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And my hope for the church, John Henry, is Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today,
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And a lot of Catholics don't know this, that the Pope isn't the head of the church, but
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And he's going to lead us through what we're going through right now.
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We have to be sensitive to the inspirations of the Holy Spirit.
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And we have to stay within our spheres of authority.
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We've been given a certain responsibility in family life or in work life, and we shouldn't
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Because if you go out of your path, bad things start happening to your soul.
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So yeah, I'm so glad you brought up the personal aspect of it.
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And while we are doing that, while we are getting ourselves right with the Lord closer
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and closer into relationship with him, into fidelity to him, how can we help the church
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Many of us in our own parishes, in our diocese, and then watching what's going on in Rome,
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are confronted with something we'd never dreamed we'd see.
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You know, and so is there any role that the laity can play on these issues?
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I have a chapter in part two called The Time for Action, and us lay people shouldn't be
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When we hear something said in a sermon in our parish that isn't right, or we think it
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isn't right, it seems to not be faithfully passing on what Jesus and the apostles and
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the church teaches, what the catechism of the Catholic church teaches.
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We should respectfully go to the priest or the deacon and say, Father or deacon, I heard
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you say this, and am I understanding you correctly?
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And it doesn't seem like it's what the church really teaches.
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And if the priest says, gee, I'm sorry, I gave you that impression, I'll correct it.
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But if the priest blows us off, which certainly could happen, and says, come on, you got to
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If he does something painful like that, then we really should go to the bishop.
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Now, I got to warn lay people who are listening to this.
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But you have to tell him what's going on in the preaching or teaching in your parish.
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And you have to provide whatever documentation you can.
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And ask him, please help us, because the sheep are being misled.
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They're not being fed the true food that the Lord wants to feed them.
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Now, if the bishop won't see us, if the bishop doesn't respond to our letter, we have one
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We can go to the papal nuncio in Washington and inform him of our concern.
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Probably all he'll do is send a copy of our letter back to the bishop, and we're going
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around in a circle that's not going to go anywhere.
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But at least we've fulfilled our responsibility.
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You know, at least we've fulfilled our responsibility.
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I've gone to the Archbishop of Detroit and talked about things that were of concern.
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Sometimes things weren't, but I felt like I did what the Lord wanted me to do.
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So us lay people need to do what we think the Lord wants us to do, you know, and not be
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Also, we need to stop contributing, to tell you the truth, to places that are undermining
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Yeah, I know that's radical to say, but it's true.
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We need to support those parishes and those dioceses that are faithful to Christ and are
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addressing the culture in a properly aggressive way, and ministries that do the same thing.
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In the end, as you said, our Lord will vanquish, and our Lord will be victorious.
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He is given a role in his vanquishing to his most holy mother.
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The demon is, as we know in the proto-gospel in Genesis 3.15, crushed by her heel.
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And I think that's really, it's so fitting because not only is the devil vanquished by
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God, for whom he'd be like, oh yeah, no big deal.
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But our Lord gives this role to the humblest of all creatures, a creature who's created
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humans that are therefore lower than the angels.
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What do you see as the role of Our Lady, and how has she helped to you in living out your
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You know, Vatican II does say that lay people have a right to make their views known, you
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know, and we should make our views known, but we should also respond to what Mary asked
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You know, she said, accept the suffering that comes your way, and offers reparation for sins
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and conversion of sinners, and also pray the rosary every day for peace in the world.
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So, and, you know, she said World War I was going to end soon, but if there wasn't repentance,
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20 million people died in World War I, 50 million people died in World War II, and so
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And since World War II, I don't think the world has turned back to God.
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In fact, what we're really seeing is something like a great apostasy.
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Whether it's the great apostasy or not, we'll only know if the Lord returns, but we're
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seeing this tragic, shocking, wicked, turning away from faith by Catholic country after Catholic
00:36:16.420
country, and even in our own country, so many of our fellow Catholics, like you pointed out
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at the beginning of the program, are no longer believing, or are no longer obeying.
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And so, I think what Mary said is that prayer and sacrifice, she said so many souls are going
00:36:31.700
to hell because so few people are praying and sacrificing for them.
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So, if I move my camera, I could show you a little picture of St. Jacinta and St.
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Francisco, right here, right next to me, a picture of Mary.
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And I really do think that tremendous things will happen if more and more people pray and
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sacrifice for reparation for sin, the terrible sins by which the Lord is being offended.
00:36:58.240
Francisco, when he was dying, said, God is so offended by these sins, we shouldn't commit
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even the littlest sin, and it gets back to fear of the Lord, it gets back to believing
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But I'm trying to follow what Mary is asking us to do, because I know that we human beings
00:37:18.000
We need help from heaven, we need heavenly help, but heaven does work through human beings.
00:37:23.180
It works through our prayer and fasting, it works through our accepting the charisms that
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You know, again, Vatican II says, the Holy Spirit gives charisms to everybody, because that's
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You know, and no pope and no council can ever teach anything contradictory to scripture.
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But everybody's been given charisms, so I'd like to say everybody here who's listening
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today or watching, the Lord has given you gifts.
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Timothy, stir into flame the gift that you received when I laid hands on you.
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We've all received the gift of baptism and confirmation of the Holy Spirit.
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We need to stir into flame the gifts that the Lord has given us and actually activate
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So many gifts, gifts of encouragement, gifts of prophecy, gifts of administration, gifts
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of giving money generously, gifts of helps, so many different gifts, gifts of healing.
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So we need to have these gifts come alive in the body of Christ in order for Christ to
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really be able to manifest himself to the world today.
00:38:21.960
Dr. Ralph Martin, thank you so much for being with us here on the John Henry Weston Show.
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I'm going to encourage all of you, go to Renewal Ministries, find the book.
00:38:29.840
It's available, of course, on Amazon.com, everywhere, really.
00:38:33.640
The book is The Church in Crisis by Dr. Ralph Martin.
00:38:42.160
And thank you for the brave work that you're doing.
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We'll see you next time on the John Henry Weston Show.
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I'd like to invite you to subscribe to the John Henry Weston Show YouTube channel if you
00:38:58.860
There you will find all the past episodes and much more.
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Thanks again for watching, and may God bless you.