00:16:51.480And the problem is, is that, you know, I respect, for example, Bishop Schneider very much.
00:16:56.820But he has written for LifeSite News and he's written for 1 Peter 5 saying that a pope can teach heresy in his, not his extraordinary magisterium, but in his ordinary magisterium.
00:17:12.040And that that goes against not only what St. Robert Bellarmine taught, but it goes against even what Blessed John Paul II taught, because Blessed John Paul II said that the pope, when he is not using his extraordinary magisterium,
00:17:29.560but when he's using his ordinary magisterium, is not teaching as a private doctor, he is using his supreme teaching authority.
00:17:39.020So that would include encyclicals and speeches and sermons and things like that.
00:17:46.120So this, the idea of having a public material heresy on the part of a pope, show me what saint or what Catholic author in the last 2,000 years actually taught that.
00:18:03.380All the doctors of the church, all of the saints, let's say, previous to the Second Vatican Council perhaps, were in unanimous accord on the point.
00:18:14.840It's very interesting because you have this anomaly having to be faced right now, whereas in the past it was deemed an impossibility unless there's an antipope, which is sort of an easier solution in some ways.
00:18:32.740A lot of people have argued, oh, what would we do if Bergoglio was not a real pope, then it would be total mayhem.
00:18:39.880You'd have all these cardinals who aren't really cardinals and so on and so forth.
00:18:42.800I think there's mayhem the other way as well, because we're continuing down a trajectory which hasn't changed.
00:18:51.360A lot of people thought, oh, there'll be reform with Leo, but we haven't seen that either.
00:18:55.520What I've done is I've gone through what the saints have told us, and there's a cognitive dissonance between what the saints were advising and doing and the inaction that's been going on the last 13 years.
00:19:10.640I'll give you an example of chaos in the church.
00:19:14.120On Valentine's Day in the year of our Lord, 1130, a group of cardinals got together.
00:19:20.340The pope was dying, and what they did was as soon as he died, they sort of buried his body in the backyard, so to speak.
00:19:30.120They didn't tell the rest of the cardinals he was dead, and they elected Innocent II as pope.
00:19:35.940When the rest of the cardinals found out about this, they were furious, and they elected Anacletus II as pope, and he was accepted by the clergy and people of Rome.
00:19:47.820And then there was fighting in the streets, and Innocent II had to flee Rome.
00:19:53.080I mean, imagine trying to report on this if there was media at the time.
00:19:58.520Innocent II, whose conclave cannot be considered canonical, and I go into several authors in the book that talk about the non-canonical nature of his conclave.
00:20:13.400Nevertheless, one of the, basically the greatest saint of the 12th century, Saint Bernard of Clairvaux, backed him as the real pope.
00:20:23.200And Saint Bernard went to the king of France, he went to the king of England, he went to the Holy Roman Emperor in Germany, and he wrote to them, he met with them, and cajoled them into getting the episcopacy in their kingdoms to back Innocent as the real pope, and Anacletus as the false pope, as an antipope.
00:20:46.000Even though Anacletus, again, enjoyed the majority of the cardinals, and was actually sitting on the chair of Peter in Rome for eight years, okay?
00:20:57.500And what, and then I asked the question in the book, what could have caused Bernard, a doctor of the church, to follow something like this?
00:21:07.500And the answer is in a letter that he wrote to the emperor, he said that it's an insult to Christ that a Jew should sit on the throne of Peter.
00:21:19.200Well, apparently, Peter Pierre Leone, who was the cardinal that was elected Anacletus II, his grandfather or great-grandfather was Baruch, a Jew, a banker,
00:21:32.260who actually helped out during the controversy between the popes and the emperors over the investiture of bishops.
00:21:39.540Well, he accepted baptism, Baruch, and so his grandson, Pierre Leone, he was Peter Pierre Leone, was a Catholic.
00:21:51.160But because he was, I guess the implication was, is that this was sort of a secret takeover of the church by a Jewish banking family.
00:22:01.740And that seems to have been the justification for not only St. Bernard of Clairvaux, but St. Norbert, the founder of the Norbertines,
00:22:10.440was getting the emperor to actually launch armies into Italy to unseat Anacletus II.
00:22:20.180And ultimately, what happened was Anacletus died eight years later.
00:22:24.840Bernard came to Rome and then convinced his successor to step down and let Innocent II actually become pope, actually rule as pope.
00:22:34.420And Innocent II called an ecumenical council, the Second Lateran Council.
00:22:39.020And one of the provisions of the Second Lateran Council is that Anacletus was an antipope.
00:22:45.360And then all of the bishops he made, all the cardinals he made are null and void.
00:22:50.160If this is how the saints approached an apparent antipope, or at least, well, I guess I shouldn't say apparent because the Second Lateran Council said he was an antipope.
00:23:00.560But if that's how they approached it, what is off the table in terms of options for the churchmen of today?
00:23:07.360Looking at history this way surely does give us new appreciation.
00:23:13.540It's interesting because there are some in the hierarchy, speaking, because there still is Archbishop Viganò, now excommunicated.
00:23:23.120But I would presume back in the day, the antipopes would excommunicate the saints or whomever, on both sides perhaps, but still the actual antipopes would be doing excommunications of others.
00:23:41.000Yes, well, another aspect of this is I do talk about what actually happened historically.
00:23:46.780But I also mentioned the teaching of the saints on who is in schism, who can question a pope.
00:23:53.820Are you in schism if you question a pope?
00:23:55.700And for example, Thomas Cajetan, who was the greatest theologian of the Reformation period, a man who actually debated Martin Luther.
00:24:05.340So he knew a thing or two about schism and Cajetan teaches that if a person suspects because of rumors in circulation that the pope is not the pope, you are not a what's the word?
00:24:24.360You are not in schism because to be in schism, St. Thomas Aquinas teaches, you have to be against the office of the pope.
00:24:37.560It's not that you disagree as to who the occupant of the chair is.
00:24:42.060And actually, Bishop Strickland spoke about this recently.
00:24:44.920Bishop Strickland said that there is a difference between a person who questions the legitimacy of a pope and and someone who goes into schism.
00:24:58.120And in fact, Bishop Strickland also said before the conclave that elected Prevost, Bishop Strickland said that if a man who is a public heretic or reasonably suspected of being a public heretic is is elected, the cardinals, the faithful cardinals have an obligation not to recognize his validity.
00:25:19.980That one, Ed, that has a lot of personal impact because we got in huge trouble for, see, we knew a lot about Prevost going in because Prevost was the former head of the Congregation for Bishops.
00:25:37.140He was involved in canceling Strickland, canceling Ray, bringing McElroy to Washington, not to mention he was a liberation theologian who we knew where he stood on abortion versus immigration because he said it back in 2023.
00:25:56.340So when at his election, of course, I said, that's a nightmare now famously.
00:25:59.760And a lot of people were very upset with me at the time.
00:26:02.400But we knew going in who this guy was, Bishop Strickland's words, hearing them again, they really strike.
00:26:10.540Pope Francis, when he came out with his Abu Dhabi document with the imam saying that God positively wills the diversity of religions, right?
00:26:21.760Something that the head of the Society of St. Pius X said recently, a person should accept martyrdom before signing on onto a document like that.
00:26:31.720I think it was 2024 or 2023, Bishop Strickland said, this makes us think about the third secret of Fatima and that we have to be worried about apostasy at the top.
00:26:43.140So there are, he says, yeah, we must be concerned about the reported words of the Virgin of Fatima about an apostasy, which would begin at the top.
00:26:52.060So there are Marian apparitions that have, our lady is the greatest of all saints.
00:27:20.680We discussed the prophecies of Marie-Julie Yahani, who was a very famous stigmatist.
00:27:27.240She talked about becoming two successive antipopes.
00:27:30.360But in the same country and in the same century, there was actually an approved apparition of La Salette, which, you know, the secrets of La Salette buried for a long, long time, finally discovered in the Vatican.
00:27:45.320And they, too, talk about something similar to two successive antipopes.
00:27:49.920In the words of Our Lady of La Salette, it was two worm-ridden popes.
00:27:55.640She, in fact, said that Rome will lose the faith and become the seat of Antichrist.
00:28:00.200But you seem to, in your book anyway, talk about similar approved apparitions that also talk about antipopes or false popes.
00:28:13.020Faithful Catholics have a devotion to Our Lady of Akita, Japan, right?
00:28:17.820Because in 1973, Our Lady appeared to Sister Sasagawa, and this was approved by the bishop there, Bishop Ito.
00:28:26.220But what a lot of Catholics may not be aware of is that in the message of Our Lady of Akita, Our Lady says to her that you should follow your spiritual director.
00:28:37.280So that's an endorsement from the Mother of God.
00:28:44.620Well, Bishop Ito appointed Father Thomas Yasuda.
00:28:47.760He wrote a lot about the apparition because he was a witness to the miraculous lacrimations, the tears that came from the statue of Our Lady of Akita.
00:29:00.360Human tears coming from a wooden statue 101 times.
00:29:04.280And by the way, that has a connection to Our Lady as co-redemptrix and mediatrix of all graces, but that's a discussion for another day.
00:29:14.140But Father Yasuda wrote a book that was published in 2001.
00:29:18.040It has not been translated into English.
00:29:20.180But in the original Japanese, we are reliably informed by a Franciscan priest who recently did a YouTube video about this.
00:29:32.200And what Father Yasuda said is apparently somehow connected to the message of Our Lady of Akita.
00:29:38.920He says that Judas and the last Pope are to sell Jesus to the enemy.
00:29:47.620Therefore, the era of Antichrist Pope will come soon.
00:29:52.580And then recently, you had Father Paul Kramer on your show.
00:29:56.720I'm not sure if Father Kramer brought this up, but in a newsletter from, I guess, a couple of years ago, Father Kramer adds that Father Yasuda purportedly also said the following.
00:30:09.920Make sure your seatbelt is securely fastened.
00:30:12.340If these quotes are correctly attributed to Father Yasuda, Father Yasuda was one of these saintly souls.
00:30:35.980When he died in December of 2013, hospital staff in Japan recorded the fact that they smelled an inexplicable smell of, like, lilies and roses at his deathbed.
00:30:49.740They didn't have natural explanation for that.
00:30:52.360So, I do believe the saints have tried to prepare us for this situation so that we act with the zeal of the saints and imitate their example.
00:31:33.080He's talking before an audience in Detroit in 1990, saying that we may have to face an apostate pope.
00:31:39.800So, well, I found another quote from Malachi, and this was when he was with, as you know, he did interviews not simply with Art Bell on secular radio, but with Bernard Jansen.
00:31:58.720I think Mr. Jansen still actually has those on tape for those that want to buy that.
00:32:05.160But one of those interviews from, I guess it was 1994, it was The Shoes of the Fishermen.
00:32:14.100So Malachi Martin talking to Bernard Jansen.
00:32:17.460The present situation, concentrating on the church, John Paul II got, and the policy he formulated.
00:32:26.980He still welcomes the bishops for their ad limina visits.
00:32:30.000He still treats them as if they were doing their duty, knowing they are not doing their duty, knowing some of them are plotting against him, knowing some of them want him to resign before his time and get out so that they can elect a man after their own heart who will be an antipope.
00:32:50.720So this is from 1994, Malachi Martin, trying to give us a hint, as it were, what was going to happen.
00:33:00.200One thing that is going to come up and that always does is, wait, wait, what do we do then?
00:33:07.600I thought we were promised that, you know, the gates of hell will not prevail, that the church will always stand.
00:33:16.340This seems to be the church has fallen.
00:33:22.580The fact of the matter is, is that there have been periods in church history.
00:33:26.420I just gave you an example where there was an antipope, apparently, sitting on the throne of Rome for eight years.
00:33:32.060And there have been interregnums where there was no pope for three years.
00:33:37.500Malachi Martin said that the church would have to go underground.
00:33:41.080And other holy people have told us, I think it was Father, not Father Paul Kramer, but Father Bernard Kramer, in a book that he wrote, I guess it was the 1950s, on the Book of Revelation.
00:33:57.100And he says that there will be a time, and we don't know how long that time will last, but the faithful will be without the strength of the papacy, and we'll just have to buy our time and pray, and God will guide us.
00:34:16.380St. Paul in 2 Thessalonians says, you know what is holding back the lawless one, the Antichrist.
00:34:24.280And he told them not to get upset, because we know that the Antichrist and the end times are not going to come until the catacomb stops holding back the power of the Antichrist.
00:34:37.520In my other book, The Third Secret of Fatima and the Synodal Church, Pope Benedict's resignation, I have a chapter where I examine what the doctors of the church and the saints have had to say about who the catacomb might be.
00:34:51.640And the catacomb may be the papacy. If for the last three years we haven't actually had a valid pope, that should not shake our faith, because it's been predicted in Scripture that when the catacomb stops restraining,
00:35:06.100it's a Greek word which means to stand fast or to hold fast, that is when the power of Antichrist and lawlessness is going to make itself known.
00:35:14.940And quite frankly, it is the last three years when it seems like all hell has broken loose on the Tiber River there.
00:35:21.500It's very interesting because you don't date it to Bergoglio's election, but you date it to the time that Benedict dies, which is very interesting.
00:35:34.100And it's true, there was sort of a spike in heretical activity after the fact.
00:35:42.320That's when we came out with the re-script on Traditiones Custodis to make sure everybody knew it's going to be as hardcore as I'll get out.
00:35:50.200That's when we came out with Fiducius Supplicans, and you had this massive controversy.
00:35:56.140So yeah, it's very, very interesting indeed.
00:36:00.040Final thoughts for us, Ed. Thank you so much for all your time.
00:36:02.060Give us both your final thoughts and where people can pick up the book.
00:36:06.020Yes, well, people can pick up the book at Amazon, or they can go to my website, edmundmazza.com.
00:36:13.320I offer online courses in church history and Marian apparitions and the latest controversies.
00:36:19.620I've got a course right now on Jews, Muslims, and Catholics, so nothing controversial there, so they can get the book there also.
00:36:27.220Final thoughts is that God has given us the example of the saints and the intercessory power of the saints, and we are going to get through this.
00:36:37.780And Our Lady has promised that in the end, her immaculate heart will triumph.
00:36:42.040And so we need to be praying our rosary, we need to be doing what we can according to the duties of our state of life, and just being informed.
00:36:50.660And again, people will be surprised what the saints actually did with apparent antipodes.
00:37:27.820I'm really urging all the audience to continue to follow LifeSite News for all information, news about life, for a great perspective on all the breaking news in the world.
00:37:42.080Thank you for watching and continue to watch and follow LifeSite News.