The John-Henry Westen Show - Scott Hahn on whether COVID-19 is punishment from God

00:00:00.200 Hello, and welcome to this episode of the John Henry Weston Show.

00:00:03.020 You're going to want to stay tuned.

00:00:04.160 We're talking with Dr. Scott Hahn, scripture scholar, convert extraordinaire, and we're

00:00:09.900 going to talk to him about not only his new book, Hope to Die, but also about the current

00:00:13.600 coronavirus as a chastisement and what he thinks of what's going on right now.

00:00:30.000 Just before we begin, let me encourage you to like this video, also to hit the subscribe

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00:00:44.520 You can also subscribe to it at lifesitenews.com under the blog section of John Henry Weston's

00:00:49.960 blog.

00:00:51.440 Dr. Scott Hahn, welcome to the program.

00:00:54.120 It is great to be with you, John Henry.

00:00:55.680 Thanks for having me.

00:00:56.440 It is quite the book, quite a book for our times.

00:01:01.840 It's called Hope to Die, and it's released right now in the middle of our coronavirus

00:01:07.640 crisis.

00:01:08.400 In fact, just as it was launching, we came on to Easter weekend, and we were, of course,

00:01:14.360 everyone at home.

00:01:16.060 Give us, if you can start with, the genesis of this, how this happened that you wrote this

00:01:21.900 book, which is so timely.

00:01:23.340 You must have started it over a year ago, and yet it's released right now, seemingly

00:01:28.900 providentially.

00:01:29.740 How did that come about?

00:01:31.480 Well, it goes back a couple of years.

00:01:33.500 In fact, right before we began to record together, you and I were talking about that Authentic Reform

00:01:38.520 Conference in D.C. back in the fall of 2018, sponsored by the Napa Institute.

00:01:43.880 And I was there, and I spoke and heard wonderful talks by others, too, Janet Smith, Curtis Martin,

00:01:49.720 Tim Gray, and so on.

00:01:51.520 And at the end of it, near the tail end of the banquet, I was leaving, and a couple of

00:01:56.360 friends of mine stopped me and just said, hey, would you ever think about writing a book

00:02:00.780 that deals with death and the body and cremation?

00:02:04.660 And I was thinking to myself, absolutely not.

00:02:07.460 But what I heard coming out of my mouth was, yes, I'd be very open to that.

00:02:12.400 So when I got into the Uber and went off to the airport, when I finally got to my gate,

00:02:17.500 I turned to my friend and I said, what was I thinking?

00:02:21.060 Why in the world would I give consent to writing a book like that?

00:02:24.700 And he said, well, you and I talked about this a year or two ago.

00:02:28.740 And I said, okay, well, it wasn't a book so much as a presentation.

00:02:33.780 And so later that year, on the Feast of Our Lady of Guadalupe in downtown New York City

00:02:39.380 in Manhattan, I gave this talk that came together in the last 24 hours or so, and I was speaking

00:02:45.560 to chaplains, to philosophers, theologians, and ordinary lay people who had a lot more

00:02:50.180 experience about these matters of death than I did.

00:02:53.640 And I don't know exactly where it came from, but three and a half hours later, we just felt

00:02:58.900 like we had shared an enchanted evening discussion filled with all kinds of insight, most of which

00:03:04.700 had not come from me, but through me from on high.

00:03:08.040 And so afterwards, I gave some thought to, well, could that become an article or something

00:03:13.140 more?

00:03:14.220 And the two friends approached me and said, you know, would you make it into a book?

00:03:18.180 And I'm like, I think I'm game to try.

00:03:20.940 Yeah.

00:03:21.160 And so I spent most all of 2019 working on this book with my co-author, Emily Stimson-Chapman,

00:03:27.780 a dear friend, a former student, and now a collaborator on a variety of projects.

00:03:32.440 And she would stop by and I would dictate into a recorder and kind of feel like I was reliving

00:03:38.240 that experience that one evening in Manhattan.

00:03:40.860 The book came together by December of 2019.

00:03:43.380 I was kind of excited and pleased and proud, and she was too.

00:03:47.080 And as it was sent off to the printers, you know, suddenly everything hit in January, but

00:03:53.260 especially the last week of February, it was a leap year, you remember this year is.

00:03:57.540 And so on the 29th, I realized that this coronavirus crisis was something that was epoch making.

00:04:03.560 And so I did something I'd never done before with my 40 plus books.

00:04:07.540 I called the printer and I said, stop the presses.

00:04:10.520 I need to rewrite that last chapter.

00:04:12.820 And so I had a sense of timing with this whole book for the last two years, but suddenly I

00:04:20.000 was really shown a sense of divine timing that I had my reasons, but God had his.

00:04:26.280 And his, I thought, were more poignant, more dramatic, more important.

00:04:30.960 And so I basically rewrote the last chapter in light of this crisis that we're all kind

00:04:36.020 of living through.

00:04:36.740 You know, it's strangely blessed and eerie for us, I suppose, for me and for my family,

00:04:42.880 it was the lengthiest Lent I have ever known, a strangely blessed and eerie time.

00:04:48.360 But now that we're on the other side of Easter, I am really chomping at the bit to see the mystical

00:04:53.040 body of Christ come out of this tomb, come out of this crisis, and to rediscover the glory

00:04:58.760 of the gospel, most especially with the resurrection of Christ's body.

00:05:03.120 Because what I've discovered in the last couple of years of research and writing and editing

00:05:08.000 is that the resurrection is so much more than what we think.

00:05:12.980 It's so much more than a historical reality, an empty tomb with eyewitnesses.

00:05:17.580 It's so much more than a fulfilled prophecy.

00:05:20.340 He was raised on the third day in accordance with the scriptures.

00:05:23.660 It really is more than the resuscitation of Jesus' corpse like Lazarus experienced.

00:05:28.460 It really is the transfiguration of human life, of human existence.

00:05:34.720 And so God takes what is ours, human nature, in order to give us what is his, and that is

00:05:40.680 our share in divine nature.

00:05:43.000 But most especially, we receive this mystery in the Holy Eucharist, because the Eucharist,

00:05:49.000 we believe, is the real presence of Christ's body, blood, soul, and divinity.

00:05:53.480 But what I've come to see more clearly, and I try to communicate more clearly in this book,

00:05:58.380 is that it's the same body that was in the upper room on Holy Thursday.

00:06:02.640 It's the same body that was on the cross on Good Friday, buried in the tomb on Holy Saturday.

00:06:08.060 But more specifically, the body of Christ that we receive in the Holy Eucharist is the resurrected

00:06:13.420 body, that which is ascended on high, which is enthroned at the right hand of God the Father

00:06:18.600 Almighty.

00:06:19.080 And so this body is not just resuscitated, his innocence is not just vindicated, his humanity

00:06:26.560 is divinized.

00:06:28.220 And it's not just divinized for himself, it is divinizing us.

00:06:32.440 When we receive his body, we get his blood, his soul, but also his divinity to fulfill

00:06:38.160 what we read in 2 Peter 1, 4, that we have been made partakers of his divinity and nothing

00:06:45.380 less.

00:06:45.800 We are made sons of God to share in his own sonship and to fulfill that pledge.

00:06:51.920 He said, my flesh is food indeed, my blood is drink indeed.

00:06:55.520 And then he goes on to say, he who eats my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me and

00:06:59.160 I in him.

00:07:00.040 Then he concludes by saying, he who eats my flesh and drinks my blood, I will raise him 0.97

00:07:04.780 up on the last day.

00:07:06.580 Because the Eucharist we receive is his resurrected body.

00:07:09.860 But it's also the instrument by which Christ will resurrect our bodies and cause us to share

00:07:15.840 in the joy and the glory that has been his for the last 2,000 years.

00:07:20.720 Only for us, it will be 20 trillion years and that will be the first minute of eternity.

00:07:26.720 This is what we were made for.

00:07:28.320 This is not plan B.

00:07:30.060 This is the gospel according to the Catholic Church.

00:07:32.640 And it's good news that's almost too good to be true unless it's all true.

00:07:38.160 And it is.

00:07:38.740 It is the truth of the gospel.

00:07:40.920 And the resurrection of the body and the life everlasting is, you know, these aren't just

00:07:44.540 the last two articles in the Apostles' Creed.

00:07:47.560 This is the finish line.

00:07:49.200 This is the goal.

00:07:50.220 This is the purpose for which every one of us is made, not just to float about as disembodied

00:07:54.940 souls like angels, not just to have a staring contest with God to look at his divine essence

00:08:00.960 for eternity, but to enter into a kind of covenant communion, interpersonal love with

00:08:07.140 God, the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, but with all of his sons and daughters who become 0.90

00:08:11.460 our brothers and sisters.

00:08:13.020 This will make the happiest vacation, the most joyful family reunion look miserable by comparison.

00:08:19.440 And this isn't just religious rhetoric.

00:08:21.480 This is the reality that we profess when we as Catholics recite the Creed.

00:08:27.880 We don't pray it too much.

00:08:29.500 We ponder it too little.

00:08:30.640 And now that I've been pondering it much more, I realize, you know, there is gold in them

00:08:36.140 thar hills, diamonds and rubies and emeralds as well.

00:08:39.180 I didn't mean to go on so long, but I tell you, it's like rising up within me, like so much

00:08:44.560 fire in my bones, as it were, like Jeremiah.

00:08:46.820 Absolutely.

00:08:47.300 Now, one of the most interesting things with regard to the time that we are in right now

00:08:53.140 is that this essential thing, the giving of Christ's body and blood, is not being made

00:09:01.440 available.

00:09:02.380 I just finished speaking to some COVID-19 patients who have told me they were there suffering,

00:09:08.820 even dying in hospital.

00:09:09.960 And there was a garbage man, a janitor, who came in to clean the receptacle and to wipe

00:09:16.460 down the room.

00:09:17.700 Yet, the priests were forbidden from coming to provide last rice.

00:09:21.860 This man who I was speaking to was in danger of death and begging for a priest, but couldn't

00:09:28.660 receive one.

00:09:29.300 Couldn't have a priest come in to give him last rice or anything like that.

00:09:33.100 Didn't die, but survived.

00:09:34.500 But lived to tell this story.

00:09:36.400 And what are your thoughts on the essential nature of the sacraments and perhaps getting

00:09:43.800 this provided somehow, at least to the dying who are so begging for extreme unction and

00:09:49.820 the final rites?

00:09:51.280 Well, it's a good question.

00:09:53.700 To give you an answer, I've got to admit from the outset that I've got a kind of traffic

00:09:58.040 jam at the intersection of my mouth because I've got like four or five or six thoughts that

00:10:03.760 all want to get through.

00:10:04.720 First of all, I want to say I've got six kids, five sons and one daughter, as I always say,

00:10:10.620 one rose and five thorns.

00:10:12.000 And two of my sons are in the seminary studying for the priesthood for the Diocese of Steubenville.

00:10:16.760 So I feel like I've got a lot of skin in the game.

00:10:19.180 The first three have given us 19 grandkids.

00:10:21.700 And so I thank God for all of that.

00:10:23.900 But I also want to express my gratitude to God for the gift of holy orders, because for

00:10:29.000 mortal men to be empowered by the Holy Spirit to transform earthly matter into the body,

00:10:34.740 blood, soul, and divinity of the God-man.

00:10:37.460 I mean, wow.

00:10:38.960 Talk about using your life well.

00:10:41.700 And so I'm excited for my two sons who are pursuing this priestly vocation.

00:10:45.860 I am grateful for all of the men I have known through the years who are fathers, not in a

00:10:51.260 natural way, but fathers in a supernatural way.

00:10:53.680 I'm a father as a breadwinner, but I can't speak the words of consecration and give to

00:10:58.940 my kids the bread of life.

00:11:00.200 And so let's just be grateful for the priests and for the seven sacraments that they do dispense.

00:11:05.420 At the same time, I would say this, that we were all caught off guard and we don't want

00:11:11.980 to jeopardize the lives of our priests or our bishops, obviously.

00:11:16.400 And we don't want to jeopardize the lives of our brothers and sisters in Christ.

00:11:19.780 And so we ought to avoid any kind of congregating that would put people at risk.

00:11:25.320 At the same time, you know, I'm a father and I long to not only provide for my kids, but

00:11:31.160 to feed them, to protect them, but to make sure that they're fed.

00:11:34.400 And so for me to not have the Holy Eucharist through most of Lent and now through the beginning

00:11:41.500 of Easter is not an easy thing.

00:11:43.680 Like my daughter said to me a few days ago, she said, Dad, I had no idea how much I took

00:11:48.520 the holy sacrifice, the mass for granted.

00:11:50.760 I have never hungered for holy communion this much.

00:11:54.340 And I'm like, well, Hannah, you know, so far so good, because I mean, this takes us out

00:11:59.640 of that stage where we take things for granted, you know, where you can almost be

00:12:04.120 unscrupulous and just assuming that you can receive.

00:12:07.560 You know, at the same time, I do wish that our spiritual fathers, our priests could be

00:12:13.300 more creative in imagining ways to dispense the sacraments instead of simply shutting

00:12:20.020 the doors.

00:12:20.560 I'm not in a position to judge them.

00:12:23.340 You know, that is not my role.

00:12:24.800 That's way beyond my pay grade.

00:12:26.340 But at the same time, as a son of God and as a brother in God's family, I can ask our

00:12:32.380 Father in heaven to give to our shepherds, you know, a greater energy to creatively imagine

00:12:39.100 ways to feed the sheep in spite of everything.

00:12:42.820 And so hearing confessions and also giving us holy communion and also especially anointing

00:12:49.360 the sick as they approach death, these are matters of some importance.

00:12:53.200 And I would say some matters of some urgency as well.

00:12:57.520 But at the end of the day, I want to say, God, preserve our priests.

00:13:01.480 God, bless them and help us to really be grateful in serving them for sacrificing so much for us

00:13:08.960 to really grow through the sacraments that they administer.

00:13:13.180 I hope I got most of the vehicles through that intersection.

00:13:16.100 Yeah, absolutely.

00:13:18.900 Now, one of the other things that is fascinating in your book is the talk that would be somewhat

00:13:24.420 troublesome for your former Protestant brothers and sisters, but also for a lot of Catholics 1.00

00:13:31.720 for whom the idea of praying for the dead is still somewhat foreign.

00:13:36.880 I know they do it and we're supposed to do it.

00:13:39.140 And we say, you know, the innermost prayers for their souls and for the souls of faith we

00:13:42.740 departed, et cetera, et cetera.

00:13:43.820 But many, I would say most, even Catholics, don't really think too much about this.

00:13:50.020 And yet you mention it very strongly in your book.

00:13:52.460 Yeah, it's a very important thing.

00:13:54.540 I mean, the souls of the faithful departed who are in purgatory have a joy that exceeds

00:13:59.620 anything we know on earth.

00:14:01.060 But they also experience pain that exceeds anything that we've experienced on earth.

00:14:06.600 And so our suffrages on their behalf are concrete expressions of divine charity far more than

00:14:12.580 we usually realize.

00:14:14.200 When we get to the other side, we're going to wake up and realize, wow, we squandered a

00:14:18.640 lot of opportunities.

00:14:20.260 Now, I would also say to our separate brothers and sisters that even though you don't have

00:14:24.800 2nd Maccabees in your Bible, 2nd Maccabees is a reliable narrative that communicates the

00:14:31.060 historical truth that we find in chapter 12, where you have the Jews who are praying for

00:14:36.620 their departed dead.

00:14:38.080 Now, even if that is not inspired in canonical scripture, it's a reliable narrative that shows

00:14:42.700 us the Jewish beliefs that we inherit.

00:14:45.440 And Jews to this day still pray for their dead in every synagogue, orthodox or conservative. 1.00

00:14:52.500 Now, if they're in heaven, they don't need our prayers.

00:14:54.500 If they're in hell, our prayers won't help.

00:14:57.540 And so if they're in an intermediary state, which they may be, in the Hebrew, that was

00:15:03.060 called Sheol.

00:15:04.180 It's translated in the Greek as Hades, the gates of which will not prevail.

00:15:09.240 But Jesus does not confuse Hades with hell, because hell is Gehenna, and that is irreversible.

00:15:15.920 But Sheol in Hebrew, or Hades in Greek, is that intermediate netherworld where the souls

00:15:21.960 of the faithful departed go, and our prayers, our sacrifices, our suffrages are not only

00:15:27.920 beneficial to them, they are concrete and powerful expressions of divine love that cause us to

00:15:34.300 grow in holiness.

00:15:34.940 And also, I think, increases that awareness, that spiritual sensibility, so that when we

00:15:40.980 die, if we should find ourselves there, our kids, our grandkids, our godchildren are going

00:15:46.180 to know enough to offer up suffrages and sacrifices and prayers for our sake as well.

00:15:52.100 Now, this is the communion of saints, not only in heaven and on earth, but under the earth

00:15:58.120 as well.

00:15:59.040 We're not talking about GPS coordinates when we speak of those under the earth, but we're

00:16:03.620 talking about real persons.

00:16:05.900 So when we hear about Holy Saturday, when Jesus descended into Hades, he does so triumphantly, 0.71

00:16:12.220 not only to deliver the souls of the faithful departed from the Old Testament shadowy realm,

00:16:17.920 when he ascends into heaven, as Paul states in the Ephesians, he carries captivity captive.

00:16:23.700 In other words, what Christ does is to repopulate heaven, because until the resurrection and the

00:16:30.140 ascension, all of the visions of heaven show us only angels.

00:16:34.520 The only exception is Daniel 7, where Daniel has this vision of what happens after the Son

00:16:39.920 of Man returns to the Ancient of Days on the clouds of heaven.

00:16:43.360 And suddenly we see the saints of the Most High in heaven.

00:16:47.760 Well, that is the prophecy that Christ fulfills, especially in his ascension.

00:16:52.680 And so we have taken for granted for the last 2,000 years, something that was almost unthinkable

00:16:58.840 for faithful Jews in the Old Testament, that in heaven, angels and saints stand alongside

00:17:04.620 of each other, offering prayers and songs and sacrifice.

00:17:08.180 What we experience down here that corresponds to that up there is what we call the Holy Sacrifice

00:17:14.200 of the Mass.

00:17:14.940 I wrote a book called The Lamb's Supper, The Mass is Heaven and Earth, which tells all about

00:17:19.960 my exciting discovery of this reality.

00:17:23.200 I mean, the composite of all of the elements that make up our faith present us with a picture

00:17:28.440 of reality that is just too good to be true, unless, of course, it is the gospel truth.

00:17:34.740 And the Catholic gospel took the gospel, I believed as a Protestant, to an entirely new level.

00:17:40.800 It was not in any way subtracting.

00:17:43.340 It was entirely adding.

00:17:44.940 In fact, it was more like multiplying exponentially.

00:17:48.380 The good news got not only better, but so good that it exceeds our highest hopes and goes

00:17:53.540 beyond our wildest dreams.

00:17:55.880 You know, and so what I want to do in this book is to kind of trace a trajectory from Rome's

00:18:00.860 sweet home where I describe our conversion to the Lamb's Supper, where I discovered that

00:18:06.480 in the Mass, heaven comes to earth and we are raised to heaven to share in the songs and

00:18:12.320 the prayer and the praise of all of the angels and saints.

00:18:16.220 But to recognize in this new book called Hope to Die, the Christian meaning of death and the

00:18:21.340 resurrection of the body, I want to basically look at the finish line, how it is that when

00:18:26.100 we cross the finish line, when we enter heaven, we're not home fully and truly until we get

00:18:32.360 our resurrected bodies back.

00:18:33.980 Not like Lazarus got his mortal body back after four days, but much more like Christ got

00:18:40.000 a body back that wasn't just simply a resurrected corpse or a resuscitated body.

00:18:45.360 It was transfigured.

00:18:46.840 It was deified.

00:18:48.540 That's what he has in store for us.

00:18:50.540 And so I think we've got to recognize that our bodies are much more than we realize.

00:18:56.000 They're not just disposable wrappers or cartons that we kind of, you know, have for now and

00:19:01.580 then dispose of later.

00:19:03.180 No, our bodies are almost like sacraments of the soul, not like the seven sacraments, but

00:19:08.380 in and so far as our bodies are visible signs of the invisible reality of my soul and your

00:19:14.360 soul, we recognize that the body is much more than what Plato thought of it.

00:19:19.420 You know, the Soma is the Soma, was the Greek wordplay, that our bodies are like prisons

00:19:23.740 and that when we die, we escape from the prison.

00:19:26.580 Well, that's sort of true, but not really.

00:19:29.980 What Paul describes in 1 Corinthians 15, the resurrection chapter, is how the perishable

00:19:35.320 will put on the imperishable.

00:19:37.420 The corruptible will put on the incorruptible.

00:19:40.200 That Christ gives to us in the Holy Eucharist nothing less than his own resurrected body.

00:19:45.580 So, when I eat ordinary food in this life, I assimilate it to my body.

00:19:50.740 When we receive Holy Communion, Christ assimilates us to his body.

00:19:56.500 And so, it's sort of the reverse of the natural process.

00:19:59.680 And that's how Christ will fulfill that pledge in John 6.

00:20:03.520 He eats my flesh and drinks my blood.

00:20:05.960 I will raise him up on the last day.

00:20:07.800 Because the flesh and the blood that we share in Holy Communion is his resurrected body, blood,

00:20:14.440 soul, and divinity.

00:20:15.440 It becomes the means by which our bodies are going to be eventually resurrected like his.

00:20:21.800 And even now, our bodies will be assimilated to his body so that we'll have the power of

00:20:27.200 love, the Holy Spirit, so that all of the little ordinary things I do and that you do,

00:20:32.760 at home, with our family, at work, with our co-workers.

00:20:37.180 All of these things take on an extraordinary meaning, a value that exceeds anything they

00:20:43.320 would have on their own, precisely because this communion with Christ is so real.

00:20:48.940 I mean, I do believe that this crisis is a wake-up call to see what all of us have at

00:20:55.580 times taken for granted, but not only to kind of be more grateful, but to seize the opportunity

00:21:01.380 and reappropriate these sacred mysteries and realize we're not sure of most of the things

00:21:06.660 that hover around this virus, but what we are 100% certain of are the sacred mysteries

00:21:13.500 that constitute a reality that exceeds this world even at its best.

00:21:19.540 And so I would just say, Lord, increase our faith, increase the endurance of hope, purify

00:21:25.880 and perfect this charity, most especially in the sacrament of your love, which is the

00:21:31.360 Holy Eucharist.

00:21:32.300 I'm sorry, I don't mean to go on and on, but it's sort of like a backlog of stuff that's

00:21:38.020 been within me, not just since I became a Catholic some 34 years ago, or when I wrote

00:21:43.360 Lamb's Supper 20 years ago, but I just believe that this is why I'm on the planet and you

00:21:48.440 are too, to discover the things that are going to get us home to heaven.

00:21:52.880 But we're not going to be like disembodied angels.

00:21:55.440 We're going to have our bodies back, and we're going to experience the first 10 trillion

00:21:59.320 years of heaven in such a way it will make the happiest homecoming, the most joyful family

00:22:05.180 reunion look like sheer misery in comparison to the happiness that we will have that will

00:22:10.760 bless God our Father more than we can possibly realize.

00:22:14.460 Yeah, one of the beautiful chapters in your book looks at, and I'd really encourage people

00:22:21.520 to read it, if and only for this, you have this incredible depiction of heaven.

00:22:27.480 You're working off of St. Thomas Aquinas, but it actually reminded me right away of C.S.

00:22:32.660 Lewis's The Final Battle, where he sort of has this description of a heavenly vision, and

00:22:37.820 you have that elucidated in your book through Thomas Aquinas' words.

00:22:41.580 It's absolutely beautiful.

00:22:43.280 Maybe you can describe that a little bit.

00:22:45.080 Sure.

00:22:45.300 I would love to, John Henry.

00:22:46.500 You know, I am a devoted student of St. Thomas Aquinas.

00:22:51.780 He is my favorite theologian, next to St. Paul, who I think is his favorite theologian.

00:22:57.760 And the Summa Theologiae is like my favorite work.

00:23:00.960 It's not always easy, but it's always rich.

00:23:03.040 And so I draw from the section where he describes the resurrected body, you know, the three qualities

00:23:08.740 that all resurrected bodies will share in terms of quality, identity, and integrity.

00:23:13.660 But the four properties that those who are resurrected into glory will share, you can summarize

00:23:18.960 this with the acrostic Isaac, I-S-A-C.

00:23:23.360 I stands for impassibility because our bodies will no longer be able to suffer, much less die.

00:23:28.780 S stands for subtlety because our bodies are not going to be weighed down at all.

00:23:33.860 A stands for agility because the power of our mobility will make it look like, you know,

00:23:39.760 the Incredible Hulk is a static figure.

00:23:42.740 And then the C stands for clarity because we're going to be able to communicate our thoughts,

00:23:48.820 our love to each other in a way that is so utterly clear.

00:23:53.440 You know, if we were ethereal beings, pure spirits like angels, we would not lack any ability.

00:23:59.820 But when we get our resurrected bodies back, the angels are going to stare in wonder and

00:24:05.000 awe at what God has done through the incarnation of Christ, His Son, through the Paschal mystery

00:24:11.060 of His death and resurrection, and how His resurrection body becomes the source of all this glory that

00:24:17.560 ends up being downloaded into our dead bodies so that our dead bodies are resurrected and raised

00:24:23.600 to a level that exceeds our highest hopes.

00:24:26.520 You know, we all seem to have a kind of love-hate relationship with our body.

00:24:31.760 Either we indulge it too much, or when we feel sick or weak or tired, we just kind of resent

00:24:37.440 the fact that we are weighed down by these mortal frames.

00:24:41.140 But what we see is what St. Paul describes as a kind of seed that is sown perishable, but

00:24:46.960 is raised imperishable.

00:24:48.300 And he's obviously echoing our Lord's words in John 12, that unless this grain of wheat falls

00:24:54.060 into the earth and dies, it remains alone.

00:24:56.120 But if it dies, it bears much fruit.

00:24:58.840 Now, obviously, the fruit that is born by a grain of wheat falling into the earth and

00:25:03.220 dies, the edible form is what we would call bread.

00:25:06.320 And this points to the bread of life, the Holy Eucharist, Christ's resurrected body.

00:25:11.080 Just as the disciples back in the first century were empowered by the Spirit to recognize the

00:25:16.820 resurrected Lord and to testify to the risen Savior, there's really a sense in which we

00:25:22.400 are the same thing.

00:25:24.060 We are disciples called to be apostles, to bear witness to the risen Savior.

00:25:28.760 And where do we find Him?

00:25:30.360 Not just on the other side of the tomb, but in the tabernacle, on our altars, upon that

00:25:35.640 patent, on my tongue and yours.

00:25:38.280 The Eucharist is the risen Savior.

00:25:40.220 And we can testify to the real presence of the resurrected Lord of Lords and the King

00:25:45.240 of Glory, because when we get to the other side of heaven, we're going to discover that

00:25:49.360 His body does not possess more glory in the end than it possesses now.

00:25:53.780 We just can't see the glory of the resurrected Lord, except through the eyes of faith.

00:25:58.680 But when we get to the other side, we're not just going to see with our resurrected eyes

00:26:03.240 what the glorified body of Christ is.

00:26:05.620 We're going to see with our glorified eyes what our own resurrected bodies are as well.

00:26:11.520 This good news is more than our world can contain.

00:26:15.440 Like new wine that bursts old wineskins, we have got to let the lion of the Catholic faith

00:26:21.320 out of his cage and allow the gospel to be roared.

00:26:25.780 Because I tell you, we have been taking a whole lot of grace for granted.

00:26:30.300 And I'm sorry, I do feel like an ocean being squeezed through a funnel right now, but that's

00:26:34.940 what it feels like.

00:26:35.740 Even 34 years after I entered into this Catholic faith, I knew it was true back then. 1.00

00:26:41.740 But I got to tell you, 34 years later, it is more powerful and more meaningful and more

00:26:47.620 beautiful than I could realize back then or that I can express right now.

00:26:52.580 But again, John Henry, thanks for another good question.

00:26:55.880 And if you've got another one still, fire away.

00:26:58.340 I do, because now you're just talking about evangelization, the need to sort of let go

00:27:05.200 of this lion.

00:27:06.360 Really, like perhaps never before in history, we had this opportunity.

00:27:11.140 I'd say during World War and crises like that, even during regular war, more people in society

00:27:18.100 pay attention to the four last things, to death, judgment, heaven, and hell.

00:27:22.080 Now, and today, like with your book's timing, but more people are paying attention to the

00:27:29.860 four last things now.

00:27:30.880 And I think your book adds to that sense, but also the ability for people to reach out

00:27:36.920 and evangelize.

00:27:37.880 I think you're right.

00:27:39.000 You know, 9-11 did that in a day, but a month later, it was practically over and done.

00:27:43.760 Whereas this crisis is lasting days, weeks, and now months.

00:27:47.540 And it's forcing us to recognize not only the inevitability of our suffering and death,

00:27:54.180 but there is also a sense in which we can recognize what God wants to do with it.

00:28:01.160 You know, we have such an inordinate fear of suffering and dying, and that's understandable.

00:28:06.780 But at the same time, what we can hear from the lips of our Lord in the words of the gospel

00:28:11.820 is that there is life that we love, rightly, and that's the gift of life and it's sacred.

00:28:17.540 But there's another life that is not merely human and natural, but divine and supernatural.

00:28:23.160 And that isn't less valuable, but infinitely more valuable.

00:28:27.060 And so when Jesus tells the people, Jairus' daughter is just asleep, and they suddenly

00:28:31.140 turn on him and begin jeering, it isn't because he hadn't gotten adequate medical training.

00:28:36.820 No, just like Lazarus, when he says to the disciples, he's sleeping.

00:28:40.180 Well, in that case, he'll wake up.

00:28:41.560 No, he's dead.

00:28:42.560 Well, why didn't you say so in the first place?

00:28:44.500 Because what you know to be death, what you fear so much as death, I see as a kind of sleep.

00:28:52.520 What you don't dread enough is that kind of spiritual death that you commit by misusing

00:28:57.320 your freedom.

00:28:58.300 It's called mortal sin.

00:29:00.460 This is a wake-up call.

00:29:02.380 You go back to the beginning and you look at our first parents and what God gave to them.

00:29:06.260 In Genesis 2, verse 7, God took the dust from the ground and made our first father, but

00:29:12.560 then breathed and it was not also the breath of life, so that the first breath that the

00:29:16.560 first man drew was not just air or oxygen like the animals were breathing.

00:29:21.340 It was God's breath.

00:29:22.420 It was the Holy Spirit.

00:29:24.400 He had supernatural life or what we call sanctifying grace.

00:29:28.200 And so when God says 10 verses later in Genesis 2, verse 17, the day you eat of this forbidden 0.91

00:29:34.720 fruit, you will surely die.

00:29:36.240 He wasn't issuing an idle threat that he didn't follow through on. 0.69

00:29:39.860 He wasn't talking about physical death.

00:29:42.440 He was talking about mortal sin.

00:29:44.780 First John 5, verse 17, the sin unto death, thanatos, the same word that is used there in

00:29:51.300 Genesis 2, verse 17.

00:29:52.620 When our first parents committed original sin, they committed spiritual suicide.

00:29:58.680 They forfeited life that was not just natural, but supernatural, not just human, but divine.

00:30:03.440 They experienced a death that was not merely metaphorical, but much more of a death than

00:30:08.140 a bullet to the brain.

00:30:09.520 They lost a life that is eternal and infinitely more valuable than our own finite human life.

00:30:15.520 So when we get original sin, which we contract, we don't commit, we're not born depraved like

00:30:21.180 I used to think as a Protestant.

00:30:22.620 But we are born deprived of the divine life that our first parents had, but then forfeited.

00:30:28.260 That's why in baptism, when we get that life back, St. Paul can describe it in Romans 6 as

00:30:34.240 our sharing in Jesus' death and resurrection.

00:30:36.800 Because in the waters of baptism, an infant or an adult is resurrected more than Lazarus

00:30:42.040 was after four days.

00:30:43.520 He got his physical body back.

00:30:46.020 He got his own natural human life.

00:30:48.340 But in baptism, we get the supernatural life that is divine and eternal that our first

00:30:54.000 parents forfeited.

00:30:55.020 This is why Paul calls Christ the new Adam, the last Adam, because he not only did what 0.94

00:31:00.780 Adam should have done, he undid what Adam did for all of his progeny.

00:31:05.580 And again, this is how the Bible and Catholic doctrine come together like nitroglycerin and

00:31:11.680 explode in a luminous way and show us this is not plan B.

00:31:16.420 This is the only thing for which every single man, woman, and child was made.

00:31:21.040 And we've been preoccupied by the stock market, you know, or by the NFL.

00:31:26.440 And don't get me wrong, I'm a big Steeler fan.

00:31:28.920 But I'm a bigger fan of the Catholic gospel because, you know, my wife, she loves bargains.

00:31:34.800 But you'll never find a greater deal than what Christ has done.

00:31:38.740 I love competition.

00:31:40.300 But you'll never find a more exciting victory than what Christ has won.

00:31:43.880 We have got to get this lion out of his cage and re-evangelize ourselves in order to re-evangelize

00:31:50.480 this world.

00:31:51.600 Because I tell you, this is the one thing for which every single man, woman, and child was

00:31:56.460 made.

00:31:57.020 For them to be deprived of the fullness and excitement and the beauty of the Catholic gospel

00:32:02.440 is no small injustice.

00:32:05.040 We owe it to Christ and we owe it to all of our brothers and sisters to share the fullness

00:32:09.400 of the faith in all of its beauty.

00:32:12.380 And again, I feel like, you know, an ocean through a funnel.

00:32:15.480 But still, you know, I just, I really believe that this is the moment that we should be seizing.

00:32:21.880 It is, it is.

00:32:22.980 Now, you've mentioned that this is a sort of wake-up call from God.

00:32:27.780 And the bishops, various bishops, Bishop Snyder, Cardinal Burke, and Archbishop Vigano, have

00:32:33.720 mentioned that this is some kind of a chastisement.

00:32:37.800 Scripturally, that seems to fit.

00:32:40.000 What are your thoughts on that?

00:32:41.980 Well, you know, when people ask, is this a divine punishment?

00:32:45.000 You know, that's a loaded question.

00:32:46.420 It's also a complicated question.

00:32:48.620 You know, I would say, is God getting even with us?

00:32:51.140 Is God getting back at us?

00:32:52.500 No, God is trying to get us back to himself.

00:32:55.500 That's the purpose of punishment.

00:32:57.100 So is this a punishment?

00:32:58.660 Well, yeah.

00:32:59.540 And why?

00:33:00.420 Because we have sinned.

00:33:02.700 It isn't their fault, their most grievous fault.

00:33:05.240 It's ours.

00:33:06.020 It's mine.

00:33:07.460 And so when you read the penitential prayer of the prophet Daniel in chapter 9 of the book

00:33:12.440 of Daniel, you don't see him pointing his prophetic finger at all of these sinful Israelites. 0.80

00:33:17.500 He's basically saying, we have grievously sinned.

00:33:20.700 To us belongs this confusion.

00:33:22.640 And so he's begging God for mercy, but not for them, but for himself and for all of us.

00:33:29.180 And so I would say, you know, we've got to see that God is a loving father.

00:33:33.360 But I tried to be that too with my six kids.

00:33:36.200 And so when I punished my six kids, you know, I didn't punish the neighbor's kids.

00:33:41.960 And even when it was more their fault, I punished my kids, but I didn't punish them because I

00:33:46.140 stopped loving them or I started loving them less and less.

00:33:49.600 No, I punished my kids because they're my kids and because I love them.

00:33:53.840 Hebrews 12 explains this, that if you go unpunished when you sin seriously, that proves you're an

00:33:59.820 illegitimate child, which we hope we're not. 1.00

00:34:02.400 And so does God punish us?

00:34:04.540 Yes, but it's restorative.

00:34:05.960 It's redemptive.

00:34:07.200 It purifies us.

00:34:08.820 Once we realize that, we'll understand what Paul is describing in Romans 1.18.

00:34:13.560 When he speaks of the wrath of God that is unveiled from heaven against all ungodliness,

00:34:19.360 he's not talking about, you know, earthquakes and famines and, you know, all sorts of volcanic

00:34:25.400 action.

00:34:26.200 And this, you know, three times Paul says that the form God's wrath takes when it's unveiled

00:34:32.140 from heaven is found in Romans 1, verse 22, verse 24 and 26.

00:34:37.800 God gave them up.

00:34:39.200 God gave them up.

00:34:40.420 God gave them up.

00:34:41.900 God's wrath is when he lets us have what we want, especially when it's contrary to what

00:34:48.000 he commands.

00:34:49.000 God's mercy is when God gives us what we need, whether it's a virus, an epidemic, an

00:34:55.600 earthquake, or a volcano, or a cop pulling us over and giving us a DUI.

00:35:00.860 When we are finally forced to accept responsibility for all of our misused freedom, that is not

00:35:07.760 wrath.

00:35:08.360 That is mercy.

00:35:09.660 That is love.

00:35:10.780 And it usually comes wrapped in what feels like a punishment.

00:35:14.680 When I punished my kids, I didn't punish them perfectly like God does.

00:35:18.240 And my kids didn't respond perfectly.

00:35:21.260 You know, they didn't feel the love, you might say, but they wake up and they grow up and

00:35:26.660 they realize that those who go unpunished don't end up more righteous, more reliable,

00:35:33.240 more trustworthy.

00:35:34.720 And so God wants to make us saints, not spoiled brats.

00:35:38.460 And so if we recognize that this is a moment of grace, a season of mercy, we can say not with

00:35:44.760 a guilty conscience, but like a heart that is set free by the medicine of God's mercy,

00:35:50.560 we have sinned.

00:35:51.940 I have sinned.

00:35:53.180 Through my own fault, through my own grievous fault, God is not willing to forgive us.

00:35:58.060 He was dying on the cross to do so.

00:36:00.360 He wants to forgive us and heal us more than we want him to, and he's capable of healing

00:36:04.780 us more than we can imagine he can do.

00:36:06.940 So if we just simply avail ourselves of his mercy, he can heal us more than we could possibly

00:36:13.240 ask him to.

00:36:14.960 But again, this is a season of mercy.

00:36:17.800 This is a time of grace.

00:36:19.800 And so instead of running from God and feeling a fear that comes from, you know, abject servility,

00:36:25.600 as sons and daughters who have willfully rebelled, we ought to just kind of come to him like the

00:36:31.400 prodigal son and expect to be forgiven, but also wait until we find out how much more he 0.87

00:36:38.400 can heal us than we realized.

00:36:42.060 That amazing sort of juxtaposition of mercy and justice is something that you mentioned

00:36:48.040 in 2018 as well.

00:36:49.360 While we're at the Napa conference and the discussion was around the abuse crisis, the

00:36:55.560 cover-up of bishops, you mentioned something very challenging.

00:36:59.420 You talked about how those guilty of cover-up, it would be merciful to even excommunicate

00:37:06.560 them.

00:37:07.200 If you can get into that a little bit, because it talks about the same issue of mercy versus

00:37:12.440 justice.

00:37:13.520 Oh, I remember that talk vividly because, you know, at the time we had a cardinal who was

00:37:19.100 very influential, very powerful, and he was also a predator and a protector of other

00:37:25.460 predators among bishops and priests, and one who promoted them in spite of their predation.

00:37:31.200 You know, and he'd already been kind of stripped of his cardinal status, and now people were

00:37:36.160 speculating as to whether he should be laicized or not.

00:37:39.440 And I'm like, seriously?

00:37:42.020 You want to take a cardinal archbishop who was a predator of young men and a promoter of

00:37:47.720 other predators who protected them and laicize him?

00:37:52.040 What does that say about your view of laypeople?

00:37:55.860 I mean, I thought Vatican II renewed that sense of the universal call to holiness, not just

00:38:01.540 for the clergy and the religious, but for all the laity that God calls us to become saints

00:38:07.220 as well.

00:38:07.900 So if such a sinner as he should be reduced to lay status, that telegraphs what you really 1.00

00:38:15.060 think about laypeople, and I don't think you mean what you are saying.

00:38:19.400 I don't think that word means what you think it means, you know, like inconceivable in the

00:38:23.920 movie Princess Bride, laity.

00:38:25.820 No.

00:38:26.840 For our sake and for his, he needed to be excommunicated, not to get even, not to get

00:38:33.500 back at him, but to get him back into the confessional, you know, so that he, like us, could receive

00:38:39.660 the medicine of mercy.

00:38:41.480 And in spite of everything, fulfill what Paul describes in 1 Corinthians 5, verses 4 through

00:38:47.180 7, where there is a man who is guilty of maternal incest, who's attending the congregation

00:38:52.580 every Sunday there in Corinth and receiving holy communion.

00:38:57.000 He's like, you know, are you kidding?

00:38:58.980 For his sake, deliver him to Satan for the destruction of his flesh.

00:39:02.220 So in the day of the Lord Jesus, his soul may be saved.

00:39:05.680 For his own spiritual salvation, for his own spiritual sake, please don't allow him to

00:39:11.460 desecrate the Holy Eucharist again.

00:39:14.220 And reluctantly, the Corinthians eventually got around to doing that.

00:39:18.180 And when Paul writes 2 Corinthians, he's addressing the question that the Corinthians are raising.

00:39:23.440 Now that we did it, we excluded him from communion.

00:39:26.420 Now that he is sorry, what should we do?

00:39:29.100 And Paul's point in 2 Corinthians 1 and 2 is, are you serious?

00:39:33.580 That was the whole point of the punishment.

00:39:35.780 You should welcome him back as a prodigal brother and celebrate his own reconciliation.

00:39:42.980 You know, and so excommunication is a kind of redemptive instrument.

00:39:48.140 You know, do people understand it?

00:39:49.680 No, they don't understand God's punishments in the first place.

00:39:52.400 They tend to think of God as a kind of divine ogre, that his holiness is something to be feared.

00:39:58.460 No, it is to be welcomed.

00:40:00.600 It's the only way we can become holy ourselves.

00:40:03.920 But at the same time, I think we have got to rethink almost everything from the ground up

00:40:10.280 to realize that this Catholic faith is the only thing that will make sense 1.00

00:40:14.320 out of our lives and our world and our own sins and the sinfulness of this world.

00:40:19.720 And I believe that's exactly what Archbishop Viganel was getting at, as well as Cardinal Burke.

00:40:25.360 And I say Archbishop Schneider's book, you know, has opened my eyes to this as much as anything

00:40:30.680 as I've ever read.

00:40:32.000 So thank you for pointing to those three good shepherds.

00:40:35.080 There are a lot of others as well, thank God.

00:40:38.000 But I'm not sure there are anyone who has been shepherding the flock as courageously as those three.

00:40:43.440 Beautiful. And I think that is really the point of your book, the turnaround in vision of death itself,

00:40:53.700 so that we see in it the hope to die, the hope for eternal life, the only crossing way into that life,

00:41:01.080 the beauty, if you will, of death in that way of looking at it.

00:41:04.760 You know, that is so important. I'm glad you put it that way.

00:41:09.440 You know, it not only makes sense out of why Jesus got the diagnosis wrong with Jairus' daughter and Lazarus,

00:41:16.340 but why he gets it right when it comes to dying in a state of grace, following Jesus,

00:41:22.620 not only watching him take up his cross, but then watching him as he not only bears a cross for us,

00:41:29.440 but bestows one on each of us every day.

00:41:32.060 You know, we tend to view Calvary in a single lens, that that is a sacrifice.

00:41:37.940 And as I point out in the book, you know, Calvary would not have been seen as a sacrifice by anybody there on Good Friday,

00:41:44.420 not even his most faithful disciples.

00:41:47.020 It was a Roman execution.

00:41:48.680 For it to be a sacrifice, it had to take place in the Jerusalem temple on top of an altar.

00:41:53.360 So the question is, how did a Roman execution get turned into a sacrifice,

00:41:58.240 one so holy and supreme that it retired all the animals that were offered in the Old Testament Jerusalem temple?

00:42:06.320 And the only way to answer that question is by looking at Good Friday in the light of what Jesus did on Holy Thursday.

00:42:13.000 He didn't just celebrate the Passover one last time.

00:42:15.860 He fulfilled it as the Lamb of God.

00:42:17.820 But he fulfilled it by transforming the Passover of the Old Covenant into the New Passover. 0.97

00:42:23.160 And what was the Passover in the Old Covenant?

00:42:24.960 It wasn't just a meal.

00:42:26.500 Just ask any lamb if he could talk, he'd tell you.

00:42:28.740 It is primarily a sacrifice.

00:42:31.140 And if that's true in the Old, it's not less but more true in the New,

00:42:35.320 where the Lamb of God is not some irrational animal who has his throat slashed and his body roasted and then consumed.

00:42:41.460 No, Christ isn't losing his life.

00:42:43.860 He's laying it down.

00:42:44.740 And the proof of that is the words that he speaks.

00:42:48.380 This is my body which will be given up for you.

00:42:50.900 This is the cup of my blood, the blood of the new and everlasting covenant poured out for you and for the forgiveness of sins.

00:42:57.520 Do this, you know.

00:42:58.760 That is not just rhetoric.

00:43:00.580 That is not just ritual.

00:43:02.500 There was a reality that Jesus initiated there by instituting the Eucharist.

00:43:07.040 And if the Eucharist is just a meal, then Calvary is just an execution.

00:43:11.860 But if the Eucharist is, in fact, the Passover, the New Covenant, that's where the sacrifice begins. 0.61

00:43:17.600 And then you can see that Calvary is where the sacrifice is consummated.

00:43:21.660 They're one and the same sacrifice.

00:43:23.640 And if the Eucharist is what transformed the execution into the supreme sacrifice,

00:43:29.120 Easter Sunday is what transforms that sacrifice into the blessed sacrament of the Holy Eucharist

00:43:34.660 that we celebrate in the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass because his body is raised.

00:43:40.440 It's ascended.

00:43:41.180 It's enthroned on high where he is not just the King of Kings.

00:43:44.340 He is the Royal High Priest who's offering in a heavenly liturgy what we receive in this earthly Mass every single time we go.

00:43:53.140 And so the Paschal Mystery is the memorial of his death and resurrection.

00:43:57.940 The memorial is the first day of the Triduum, Holy Thursday.

00:44:02.020 The death is obviously Good Friday.

00:44:03.680 And then Easter Sunday is the memorial of his death and resurrection because in every Mass,

00:44:10.700 what we commemorate, what we re-presentate, what we re-present is exactly his death no longer as the loss of life.

00:44:19.980 It is the gift of life.

00:44:21.800 He wasn't the victim of Roman violence and injustice and cruelty on Friday.

00:44:26.840 He was the victim of divine love and mercy on Holy Thursday.

00:44:30.760 The Eucharist is what transformed my understanding of Jesus' death,

00:44:35.540 not as bearing the brunt of God's wrath, but as revealing the depth of his love.

00:44:41.080 He wasn't losing his life.

00:44:42.960 He was making it a gift of love and salvation to redeem the world.

00:44:47.700 When the human race did its very worst against God,

00:44:51.340 God turned around and did his very best.

00:44:54.860 The single greatest crime of all history is the crucifixion of God's beloved Son.

00:45:00.200 The single greatest grace of salvation history is when God took the greatest crime

00:45:04.780 and made it the greatest gift for the redemption of the whole human race.

00:45:09.620 This is more than making lemonade out of lemon.

00:45:12.240 You know, this is God doing the best with our worst.

00:45:17.200 His strength made perfect in our weakness.

00:45:19.340 The light of his love shining in the darkness of our sinfulness.

00:45:23.460 And not just back in the first century, but right now in the 21st century,

00:45:28.460 if we will allow God to shine his light,

00:45:31.380 we're going to seize this moment and realize that the stock market is not unimportant.

00:45:36.620 And professional baseball isn't either.

00:45:38.660 But all of these natural joys pale infinitely in comparison to the sacred mysteries

00:45:45.120 that constitute not only our faith, but will reconstitute sinners like us 0.99

00:45:49.660 and make us saints and nothing less and not just disembodied souls,

00:45:54.200 but we're going to get our bodies back.

00:45:56.780 And the lowest body in heaven will be more beautiful than Miss Universe 1.00

00:46:01.820 could ever be on this side of the veil.

00:46:04.320 And this is just doing the math.

00:46:06.060 I mean, this is not kind of exaggerated rhetoric.

00:46:09.560 This is simply deducing from the sacred mysteries,

00:46:12.300 the conclusions that we ought to be contemplating

00:46:14.700 for as long as we have time, life and breath on this planet.

00:46:20.300 I don't feel strongly about any of this stuff, by the way.

00:46:25.300 Amen.

00:46:26.580 Drs. God Hunt, thank you so very much for being with us on the John Henry.

00:46:29.760 What a delight.

00:46:30.620 What a privilege.

00:46:31.200 What a joy.

00:46:31.660 And I think that God, as you said, will make straight with crooked lines.

00:46:38.240 And these coronavirus times are surely a hardship,

00:46:40.840 but I'm sure he will turn them into something glorious for his people.

00:46:46.140 God always, everything works for good for those who love him.

00:46:49.780 And I know you love him very much.

00:46:51.520 And I know many of our viewers do.

00:46:54.220 Thank you very much, Scott, for being with us.

00:46:56.020 May God bless you.

00:46:57.660 And God bless all of you.

00:46:58.960 We'll see you next time.

00:46:59.820 Excellent.

00:47:01.980 Hello, this is John Henry Weston.

00:47:03.800 I'd like to invite you to subscribe to the John Henry Weston Show YouTube channel

00:47:07.960 if you haven't already done so.

00:47:10.020 There you will find all the past episodes and much more.

00:47:13.560 Thanks again for watching.

00:47:15.000 And may God bless you.

00:47:16.220 Thank you.

00:47:26.200 Thank you.

00:47:26.600 Thank you.

00:47:27.440 Thank you.

00:47:27.900 Thank you.

00:47:28.600 Thank you.

00:47:28.680 Thank you.

00:47:29.060 Thank you.

00:47:29.340 Thank you.

00:47:29.640 Amen.

00:47:30.460 Thank you.

00:47:30.960 And thanks again for coming.

00:47:31.520 Thank you.

00:47:32.100 Thank you.

00:47:33.500 Thank you.

00:47:33.520 Thank you.

00:47:33.760 Thank you.

00:47:34.560 Thank you.

00:47:34.640 Thank you.

00:47:35.580 Thank you.

00:47:36.940 Thank you.

00:47:38.000 Thank you.

00:47:38.140 Thank you.

00:47:39.300 Thank you.

00:47:40.100 Thank you.

00:47:40.820 Thank you.

00:47:41.640 Thank you.

00:47:42.440 Thank you.

00:47:43.540 Thank you.

00:47:43.820 Thank you.

00:47:44.480 Thank you.

The John-Henry Westen Show - April 22, 2020

Scott Hahn on whether COVID-19 is punishment from God

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