Skeptics SHOCKED over New Guadalupe Tilma Doc ｜ Not Made by Human Hands
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Summary
Our Lady of Guadalupe is one of the most famous and beloved figures in the Catholic Church, but what exactly is her image and how does it appear in the eyes of her devotees? Is it real? And what role does she play in the future for America? In this episode, we talk to the creators of the documentary, Zach Brakefield and Whitney Hetzel, about the incredible miracles she has made and what role she still plays today.
Transcript
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Nobody could paint that. It's medically how the human eyeball works, and that's how it is in the
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tunnel. There is a new documentary dropping December 12th of this year, and it's called
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Not Made by Human Hands. We're here with the creators, Zach Brakefield and Whitney Hetzel.
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This is about Our Lady of Guadalupe, about the incredible miracles that she has made and what
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role she still plays today and she needs to play in the future for America. Zach, Whitney, so good to
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be with you both. Thanks so much for having us. Thank you so much. We're so happy to be here.
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Let's begin as we always do with the sign of the cross. In the name of the Father, and of the Son,
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and of the Holy Ghost. Amen. Let's jump right in because I think for a lot of people, they've heard
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about Our Lady of Guadalupe, particularly if they live in America, you know, everybody in Mexico knows,
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but, you know, they've heard about this. They're not sure exactly what it is. And let's start with
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the most compelling scientific evidence that this is a real thing. Your documentary is called
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Not Made by Human Hands, and I think everybody knows, but if you don't know, this image appears
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miraculously. Why don't you start with that? Give us a really small nutshell version of that for people
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who don't know this story. What's funny is when we started this project, I came in as a cradle
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practicing Catholic, just knowing the very, very basics, in a nutshell, of Our Lady Guadalupe.
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It was St. Juan Diego, saw our Blessed Mother, had the image imprinted on the tilma, end of story.
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And that was my knowledge, unfortunately, at the time. But over this last year and a half of research
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and development of this project, it has been eye-opening to see all the miraculous events
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that have taken place. And so it's very hard to put into a nutshell all of it. But, you know,
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it's amazing, I think, for me to look at the eyes of the Blessed Mother. You know, Our Lady appeared to
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Juan Diego 500 years ago, approximately. And in her apparition, in how she appears visually,
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in what she says, all has deep meaning and roots. But what's amazing is Our Lady, when she appeared,
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did not just come for that time in 1531, but still remains just as relevant to this day and for her
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message. And that scene through these scientific discoveries of seeing the figures in Our Lady's
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eyes that Bishop Zumarga and St. Juan Diego would not have known was in existence until this time.
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And so, you know, Our Lady is not done reaching out to us.
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Yeah, yeah. I would echo what Zach said as well. As you mentioned the story, you know,
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Our Lady appeared in 1531 to Juan Diego. There's a lot more detail that we go into. And we actually
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have the Nikamapua, which was written probably 30 years or so later. So we can use that as a first
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source. But thinking about the most compelling scientific mysteries, there's so many. And the
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eye thing is, I mean, Father Spitzer explained it so well to us. We were able to sit down with Father
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Spitzer. And he, you know, explained multiple people, first in 1921, and then in 1951. And then
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between 1951 and 1980, like over 20 ophthalmologists have studied this and have seen in her cornea,
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not just a reflection, but this triple reflection, which is how we all see things, two images,
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but the third flipped over. There's no way. No, it's 31. Exactly. Like who nobody could paint that.
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It's, it's, it's medically how the human eyeball works. And that's how it is in the Thelma in her.
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It's amazing. So that's super cool for all. And this is really for the skeptics, because
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a lot of people like, come on, you know, it's an image made by heaven. Give me a break.
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Yet we know it's been there all this time. We know it's an artifact that has been basically on
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display for most of its existence, not painted. There it is. And it's being studied by the top
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scientists in the world. And they're discovering this stuff, seeing in the eye, the stuff that in
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1531, did they even know about the three different ways that the eye sees like that?
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They did not. They did not. I was not. I discovered later. Right.
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It really is. And it continually surprises us as we are making this film, how much Our Lady
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is speaking to us today and how this was not a one-time event. And this was not just for Mexico.
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This is truly for the world. And, and as you said, I mean, we actually approached it that way
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through a skeptical eyes and it was helpful having Zach not know that much about it. And
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I didn't know that much more, but I had always wanted to do, um, a doc, do one of our series
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on Our Lady of Guadalupe. So, but I knew that we needed to do it when we could do it really
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well and do it in Spanish. And, um, but having Zach not have any real knowledge of it was helpful
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Exactly. Yeah. And, and I think that's what helps this, uh, film in a, in a different perspective,
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everything that we put forth is from a skeptic's perspective. We are there to present the factual
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evidence, the scientific evidence, the historical accounts and present it to the viewer. And, and
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obviously, uh, we are all believers and, uh, it, you're overwhelmed when you get to the end of the
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seven, um, episodes, you're overwhelmed with proof and factual evidence that this is true. And it's not,
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it's not in a sappy, um, propaganda ish kind of way. It truly presents things, um, that are
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Like Father Spitzer as a scientist. And we have Jorge Zavilla who's has PhD in Nautil studies. Um,
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Father Heenan, who's in Guadalajara, even our videographer in Guadalajara has really worked hard
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with us on the script because he himself has done so much study and he's kind of becoming his own
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scholar on that, but he, we're only using those sources that, you know, are authentic. And, um,
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so not only in the contributors, but also in the scholarly research that we've been able to do,
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we feel like this is just a great presentation of the authentic nature of the Toma and the
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Beautiful. Now you mentioned Zach right off the bat, it affected your faith a little bit. Can you
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So it's definitely helped, um, further this project because I did come in really unknowing to the entire,
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um, detailed, um, parts of this apparition. You know, how we have tried to present this
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is okay. We tell the entire apparition, we, we, we go through the timeline, but if,
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if you were to take just one element out of it, say, I don't believe that these figures were divinely
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put in the cornea of Our Lady. Okay. Remove that one element, but then you're faced with 20 more
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to replace it. And, and so that for me is what affected me the most of this overwhelming desire
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to learn more. And the more you study, the farther you go in this research, the more you are convinced
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of this is undeniably miraculous and sent here for a reason.
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Apart from the image being so miraculous in and of itself, what happened because of the apparition
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is almost every bit as miraculous. Tell us about that.
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Yeah, absolutely. I mean, 500 years ago, uh, you're in Mexico city and there are still human
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sacrifices taking place, you know, missionaries come and they have a lot of obstacles in their way.
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They are honestly not doing very well. They are not succeeding in converting the indigenous peoples.
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Um, and so it's amazing to think that here are these two cultures and civilizations just clashing
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and all it took was one apparition, one miracle. And our blessed mother was able to bring them both
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and unify them both together. And it has everything to do with the visual aspect of how our blessed
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mother appears in her wording to St. Juan Diego in all. And this is for me, the coolest part of the
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film is all of the hidden codexes, the divine messages that are hidden. And that's what we get
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into really deeply with the explanations of the codexes of the Tilmo. Yeah. We, we also, so in 1521,
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the Spanish had conquered, um, Mexico city. And then in that time period between 20, 1521 and 1531,
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um, you know, there were a lot of indigenous people who were slowly making their way. But if you think
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about all of their beliefs and, uh, the gods and they were so strong and also there was a lot of fear
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there. They really truly did believe that at some point up until 5, 1521, that truly in order for
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another day to begin, they had to, you know, feed their God, but see poetry, the human blood,
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and that that would kind of create another day. We get into that a little bit. We don't,
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but our experts do in the film. But so, I mean, all of this kind of in depth belief system that they
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had had to be also just because the Spanish came and conquered doesn't mean that they totally believe
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that. And then unfortunately the Spanish themselves, a lot, a lot of them were not great examples of,
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Christian, you know, um, morals. And so they weren't really, they weren't helping the missionaries,
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frankly, um, bishops of Maraga and 12 other Franciscan missionaries actually in some ways
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had to deal with them as much as they had to do with, deal with the indigenous people and trying
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to catechize them amidst all these, you know, Spanish and not all of them were, um, many of them
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did have a deep faith, but there was a lot who didn't and didn't understand. So anyway, that,
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all of that was happening leading up to our lady and bishops of Maraga actually begged our lady or
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begged God for a sign because he was at his wit's end. He didn't know how this was going to,
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how he was going to make any headway. He just wasn't making any headway. And he had just actually
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sent a letter to Charles V saying, if we're kind of at a loss here, if things don't change in terms
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of who was in power. And so he appealed to God and then our lady came.
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Now, Zach, you said that it has relevance today. Isn't the conversions done, uh, aren't,
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you know, now, uh, Mexico, largely Catholic country. In fact, they're sort of more Catholic than,
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uh, you know, some parts of the other Western world we're supposed to have, uh, our lady in the
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first place, uh, and the church in the first place, but what's the relevance today? What does it
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better today? I agree. Um, and this is honestly part of our messaging right now,
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while we're finishing wrapping up, um, this series is that our lady Guadalupe surrounds us
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everywhere in the world. I mean, I go to the grocery store and there's a candle of our lady
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Guadalupe in the aisle tattoos on sides of buildings in, on the back window of a car. I mean, literally
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everywhere. And I think, um, personally, uh, people just think that's either the, you know, Mexican Mary
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or, you know, I think there's a disconnect. And so that is what we are trying to do. We are trying
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to bring viewers to understand who our lady Guadalupe really is. Um, and yeah, it's, uh, it's,
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it's just amazing. Once you start going down that rabbit hole of trying to explain, um, the message
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that our, our blessed mother brings, it's a message of hope. Uh, you know, you put yourself in the shoes
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of St. Juan Diego at the time, it was a violent, cruel, harsh world to live in. And unfortunately,
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it's not much better, uh, in, in, in today's world. We may not have to worry about, uh, ourselves being
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sacrificed, but there are so many wars, so much violence, so much cruelty. And so we try, uh, and I
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think we do really accomplish to, to show what our blessed mother is saying and why it's still relevant
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and, and why this, anytime our blessed mother comes, it is to direct us to her son, to direct
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us to our Lord Christ, Lord Jesus Christ. Pope Pius XI said, men must look for the peace of Christ
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in the kingdom of Christ. And he urged that the faithful give public honor to Christ the King
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so that individuals and states would submit once more to the rule of their savior. And that is why
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Christ is King. We have the Tilma, most people know, but what was the specific message that she had
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for, uh, for, uh, the people there, uh, and the, the really leadership there.
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A lot of the message did have to do with, um, the fact that her son came as the one sacrifice and
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that nothing else was necessary. And a lot of, there was so much distraction over that, even though
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there was an attempt at conversion. Um, she was, she was coming to say, my son is the truth,
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the way, the life, and this, his own sacrifice conquered all other sacrifices. Even in the image
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she stands before with the rays of the sun behind her as the, she's, she's stronger. The God is
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obviously larger than the sun God, which is one of their gods and the moon and stands on top of the
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moon. And so she's making these connections for the indigenous people, which they must have understood
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because why would 9 million of them come into the faith? And as Zach said, I think a lot of it does
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have to do with what she brought, you know, the, even, even just the roses, um, blooming there in
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December, um, it was a miracle, but then they happened to be Castilian roses, which is where,
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you know, the Bishops of Marga was from and he had just asked for a sign. Um, but truly it was the
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work of the missionaries. The missionaries are in some ways kind of the heroes of the story before
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this, because they've been trying so hard. And our lady was really coming to answer a plea that they
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had asked for, and she was responding directly to Bishop, Ms. Marga, but for the people, yeah,
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coming as a Spanish, as a Spanish, Mestiza, which is, you know, the kind of blend of the two cultures
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so that everybody could understand. It wasn't just for the Mexicans, it's Spanish, but truly for
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everybody. And I think that voice, yeah, the voice of Our Lady to Juan Diego, those very beautiful,
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very soft, very poetic. Yes, exactly. It's interesting because there's an element there
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that can still teach us today about evangelization, because here we're trying to spread the faith all
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the time. That's really the longing in everyone's heart, not only to the world outside, but to our
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kids, to everybody. But when Our Lady comes and does it successfully with, um, the, the powers that
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be can't properly, even though they're trying, she comes, she does it in a certain way. She speaks
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softly, as you said, she talks sort of their language with their clothing. She's dressed as a,
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as a, a woman of the time there, like their cultural dress. She is, uh, got their constellations in
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her, in her, in her Thelma too. But tell us about that. Like, what could you extract from the way
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she did it to even bring the faith to your kids, to your friends, to, um, other people,
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uh, in your country? I do think it's the way that she came. I mean, not just in her presence
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as a Mestiza woman, as the blend between a Spanish and Mexican and the CODIS on her Thelma, all of that.
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But I do think the words that she says speak so much in that soft voice. And she asks, and,
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you know, throughout the, the, there's four or five actual, um, apparitions, but throughout them,
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just her voice and the things that she says are so amazing. You know, she knows exactly where Juan
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Diego is going. At one point, she's asked him to do something for him and yet his uncle's ill. So he
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literally scoots around the, the hill and she, she just hoping that to see our lady or the lady.
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And she comes right to him and, oh, you know, sweet Juan Diego, you know, where are you going,
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my dear Juan, Juanito? And she knows where he's going, but it's just this very gentle way and
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peaceful way. And do not worry. You know, I, am I not your mother? You know, am I not here? Are you
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not under the mantle of my arms and my protection? And it's just such a gentle coast coasting. I think
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it is a real example of how we are supposed to evangelize. I think it, it's hard because when you
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have, and you believe so strongly and you have a message, you really want to portray that. And
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sometimes we go to facts and things like that. But I think in the end it is, it is the way and the
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voice and the gentleness and the peacefulness that she comes to us and, you know, do not worry and
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place your cares. Right. Our lady's nurturing, mothering care. Yes, absolutely. Makes you want to.
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Yeah. She's answering also the call of everyone's heart loneliness. I am here. Am I not your mother?
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I'm with you. So that, that kind of language speaks also to us here and he's in dire circumstances.
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At that point, he's rushing to get a priest, if I'm not mistaken, for his dying uncle. And he feels
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totally torn between doing what she asked and doing what he knows he has to do as a duty for
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his uncle. And the story is incredible, but the beauty of her response is that really something,
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and probably that particular line that you quoted there, Whitney, am I not your mother? Like
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that's probably for me, one of the most memorable. What, what, what is it for you that's most memorable?
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Is that one as well? I would say it is for me too. And I think as Zach was saying before,
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there's so many elements in the story and we are so pleased that we've been able to talk to these
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experts and scholars. And so there's that whole piece where every time you keep unraveling things,
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there's more history to find out and more science. And, but there's this language that is universal.
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And I think that goes to the heart of Mary and what she's saying. And yes, those, those are the lines.
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And there are many, you know, throughout the story, which we, we bring in through the Nikamapola,
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which explains all of her, it doesn't explain, but basically says all the things that Juan Diego
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said and that our lady said, but those are the ones for me as well, because I think it's not just,
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it's so personal. And we found throughout this project that she has been touching us in personal,
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very personal ways. And there's always, you know, obstacles that come up and we'll be afraid,
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oh, we didn't get that contributor. And we got all the way to Mexico and we didn't get to talk to this
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person. And then, you know, she opens the door for something else. And, and it's always, in fact,
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one of our contributors early on, Father Tim said to us, you know, don't expect this to be easy.
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It's because our lady would not, she doesn't, it's not all about being easy. And in fact,
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it won't be easy. Don't expect that, but do expect her to kind of whisper in your ear. And,
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you know, even if you hear repita, repita, like, hurry up and, you know, keep going,
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that that's our lady. And that's kind of how she works. You know, there's obstacles,
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but am I not here? Who am I mothered? Exactly. So you're experiencing a little bit
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of Juan Diego's treatment, are you? Absolutely. Absolutely. We've said that many times,
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actually. Very good. So, but there've been documentaries made in the past on our native
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Guadalupe. What makes yours different? So how we have formatted ours into a seven part series,
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is kind of what you would expect to see on Netflix, with how documentaries are presented.
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Very cinematic, very compelling storytelling, but presenting it in a way that takes you through
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the guiding light of this entire story truly is the Nikon Mopoa. And until we started this,
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I had never heard of that term before. I didn't know what that meant. But it is the historical
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documents of all of the basically transcription of what took place between St. Juan Diego,
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the bishop and our lady. And so we use this as our main source telling this story. And I do think
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that it really encompasses our lady and her personality. And yeah, so I think that is our
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biggest difference. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, I do too. And then just, I think we've done a really
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excellent job. And I believe it's our lady who has put everything in front of us. But with our
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contributors, you know, we have a scientist, we have Father Spitzer, and he's a brilliant mind.
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And he's telling us it's right here. And we have the scholars and we're talking to them. And then we
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have those who've been affected personally. When we went to Mexico City a year ago, we stayed with
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nuns just a couple blocks away from the basilica. And they didn't speak any English. We didn't really
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speak much Spanish. But our videographer from Guadalajara was there. So he translated through
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them and with us. But then we also, we were able to just walk every day to the to the basilica,
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see the tilma. So I think that there's just been so many things that our lady has really personally
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brought to fruition. And it's so obvious to us that I think hopefully that will come across and that
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will be reflected in the docu-series. Beautiful. What's your favorite experience for both of you?
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What's your favorite experience in making the film? Oh, gosh. I think I truly think being in
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Mexico City there at the basilica was we were it was a year ago. So it was kind of at the beginning
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of it. But I think I kind of being able to see it. And when you're in the plaza, the basilica sits
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open, but the doors are massive. And they happen to be open that day, which I think they are often.
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And she just she's she's there and you can see her. And it's like she calls you in. It's amazing.
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You walk in and you're in this, you know, old plaza with the old basilica there in front of you,
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which is beautiful. And then this new, very modern basilica. But there you kind of look to the left
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and you see all the way in there is the tilma. And it just kind of pulls you in. And so I think
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when you see that with your eyes, to me right there, I just truly wanted to make sure I brought that to
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because not very many people can go to Mexico City to see the tilma. So I thought that was
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kind of hit me as this is what I want to do. I want to help bring this to life for people who
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never get to go and don't believe or have some reason. Maybe they're away from their faith or
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they're not Catholic at all. And that really touched me when I walked into the basilica.
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Yeah. For me, I would say it was being able to sit down with Father Spitzer. I mean, a well-known
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scholar, doctor, listening to his findings, his studies, his interpretations of other scientists'
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studies and findings. I would say I'm a moderate skeptic, you know, and I think that's why I was
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the right guy for the job to lay out this whole thing. But it was so compelling going through each
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study, listening to Father, what he said. And it's just how he said it. And that's what I'm so
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excited to be able to bring to the viewers. Because I feel like we're sitting on a goldmine
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of information presented in such a way that is beautiful. And Father Spitzer, to me, really,
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he hit it home for me. And I really felt connected and understood and recognized like, okay, you don't
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have to acknowledge and accept these scientific studies, because they're still unexplainable. I mean,
00:24:07.640
science cannot prove any of this. But how Father Spitzer sits there and explains how each individual
00:24:14.780
fiber of this tilma, and it's made from cactus fibers, so very coarse, nothing is, you know,
00:24:22.280
uniformed. But each fiber individually, naturally, is the color that you see in the tilma. And to me,
00:24:32.460
that is what hit it home for me. And I was just like, this is not a painting. This is the only
00:24:38.380
image, heavenly image that has ever been sent to earth. I mean, that's why we call it not made by
00:24:45.500
human hands. And so it's just very powerful. It's still here after 500 years. Exactly.
00:24:52.200
Unblemished, really. So that one I'd never heard before, that the, they're the natural colors of
00:24:58.820
the, so it's almost like a mosaic in a way, then. Yeah, that the pigment is also unknown. And it's
00:25:05.200
unknown. They've never been able to actually say where this could come from. We don't have anything
00:25:10.080
else in existence. And that's why it kind of, it's not paint. It's not on it. It's in it. It's a part
00:25:16.460
of the fabric of agave material, which is just remarkable. Fascinating. Looking forward to seeing
00:25:23.500
it. So December 12th, where can we get it? So, yeah, we are working on that. As a matter of fact,
00:25:29.040
we have our Kickstarter campaign running. And so we are definitely going to have it up on
00:25:35.440
goodcatholic.com. But then we are also trying very hard to get it on all major streaming platforms.
00:25:41.220
And so, you know, we're kind of reaching out and asking for assistance there. We really need
00:25:46.180
everyone's support in order to make that happen. All right. Any final thoughts before we let you go?
00:25:51.380
Oh, we're just really thrilled that you've, that you're interested as well. And that we're happy that
00:25:57.300
you've asked us to be on here because we, you just want to get the word out. And we think it's going
00:26:01.660
to be an amazing docu-series. And so we very much appreciate your time.
00:26:06.960
Absolutely. I'm very hopeful that this will reach viewers and help convert and bring them back to
00:26:14.280
our blessed mother who then directs them to her son.
00:26:17.400
Whitney Hedsel, Zach Brakefield, thank you so very much. Not Made by Human Hands, December 12th,
00:26:22.080
ladies and gentlemen. God bless you both. Thank you.
00:26:25.340
And God bless all of you. And we'll see you next time.
00:26:27.720
The Lord be with you. I'm Deacon Keith Fournier, and I hope you enjoyed this video from LifeSite
00:26:37.440
News. Check the links in the description for more content like this. You can also connect
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