The Society of St. Pius X are still going ahead with their bishops' consecrations, and the Vatican has made noises saying that it has already prepared papers for schism, or excommunication, and just heard Bishop Filet in a now famous homily saying that some would be excommunicated, thinking maybe beyond even the bishops, even the laity of the Society.
00:00:21.980Well, July 1st is upcoming and the Society of St. Pius X SSPX
00:00:26.580are still going ahead with their bishops' consecrations.
00:00:29.420July the 1st, and the Vatican has made noises saying that it has already prepared papers for
00:00:35.720schism or excommunication or whatever, and just heard Bishop Filet in a now famous homily saying
00:00:44.160that some would be excommunicated, in fact, thinking maybe beyond even the bishops, maybe
00:00:51.160even the priests and religious, some saying even the laity of the SSPX. So I wanted to bring you
00:00:57.340on someone who was an expert in all these matters, because while he's not a SSPX priest or anything
00:01:03.720like that, he is a faithful member of an SSPX parish. I guess you wouldn't even say member,
00:01:09.520but he attends the SSPX parish, and he's been doing so for many years. He's regarded as one
00:01:14.920of the most knowledgeable experts on the society and what they're doing. Welcome to the show,
00:01:21.340Kennedy Hall. Kennedy, so good to be with you. Thanks, John Henry. It's good to be back on.
00:01:24.960let's begin as we always do with the sign of the cross in the name of the father and of the son
00:01:28.860and of the holy ghost amen so kenny lots for you to help us to come to grips with with what's going
00:01:36.200on right now but first thing i wanted to ask you is that i know that here we are uh into may already
00:01:43.640and we're waiting still for a month or so before the society makes its announcement of the bishops
00:01:52.920that they're the names of the bishops that they're going to consecrate or ordain as bishops and um i
00:01:59.300have a feeling that you might know something of that are you able to share with us number any of
00:02:04.780the names that you know or suspect will be uh the ones coming forward as the new bishops for the
00:02:10.340society i don't have any information on that a lot of people think i work for the society um
00:02:16.920i don't never have and i'll just be fully transparent i've had sspx priests help me
00:02:23.980with my work you know i ask questions like how's how's this look father etc but for example when i
00:02:30.240did my book on the society of saint pious the 10th in conversations with our superior here in
00:02:35.500canada and so forth it was intentionally separate from the society's official publications for the
00:02:41.320reasons of two reasons. Number one, it not coming off to the public as like a society thing. And
00:02:47.160number two, I have freedom to say things that are my own opinions and not necessarily official from
00:02:54.200the organization, but I don't have any insider information. Are you guessing around five bishops
00:02:59.760like has been talked about? What do you make of that number? I was honestly hoping that there
00:03:04.480would be much more, but what are your thoughts about five? I had a conversation with the society
00:03:08.900priest a couple of years ago when this idea of consecration's forthcoming was at least kind of
00:03:14.760in the water because it was obvious. This was before Bishop Tissier died, God rest his soul,
00:03:19.400but it was just like, okay, we're going to need some more at some point. These men are getting
00:03:23.020old and they can't keep traveling the globe. And the one society priest said to me, he said,
00:03:28.220the SSPX is very concerned with making every possible effort it can to show that they do
00:03:35.980not see themselves as a parallel hierarchy or a parallel church or whatever.
00:03:41.160So the number of bishops is important because if you do like 20, it's like, okay, well,
00:03:48.140you know, that's a lot of bishops and are they all qualified to be a bishop?
00:03:52.040Because being a bishop is not the same thing as being a priest and whatever.
00:03:55.660But also the type of men that would be chosen would have to be done very carefully because
00:04:00.200they're not being consecrated in order to be leaders of a movement or something like
00:04:05.540that. They function as auxiliaries in an international setting, and that's what they
00:04:10.860want to make clear. So five, six, given the size of the society now, the age of the older ones,
00:04:15.640and the continents they have to travel to make sense, but it's not excessive.
00:04:19.400There's lots to unpack even there. Just for clarity's sake, these bishops are going to be,
00:04:26.600as you said, auxiliary bishops of what? Normally when you're an auxiliary, there is a bishop that
00:04:34.180you're under, if you will. Explain that to us. Why are they auxiliary bishops? Well, they are
00:04:39.940bishops without a diocese. So the term that's often used within a diocese for a bishop who's
00:04:45.240under the diocesan bishop is an auxiliary. So they're basically at the service of the jurisdiction.
00:04:51.360In the case of the SSPX, it is a society of apostolic life, and it does have a superior.
00:04:56.740And within the Catholic framework, it is possible for priests to be superiors of society of apostolic
00:05:04.000life and have other members within who are of a higher sacerdotal character. You see this with
00:05:10.640Jesuits and Dominicans and so forth. You know, the superior does not have to be a bishop, but there
00:05:14.900could be men from the order who are consecrated bishops and function as bishops, but are still
00:05:19.340members of that particular religious order. So that's kind of the reason for it. And also it's
00:05:23.980to be very clear that they are not taking for themselves any territorial jurisdiction, which
00:05:29.940is in the perennial theology of the church where schism takes place uh because it's a it's a uh
00:05:37.720it's a jurisdictional problem where there's a competition of authority and in this case there
00:05:43.980is no competing authority it is for the service of the souls is the idea so this is very interesting
00:05:48.740because what that means is that even though everybody myself included makes the analogy
00:05:55.960between what's happening in China and what's happening with the SSPX and the Chinese are
00:06:00.080being basically given a pass you know they they do it outside of the Pope's stamp and the Pope1.00
00:06:05.140looks at them afterwards and says ah well I wish you didn't do that but of course of course we're
00:06:09.720gonna we're gonna sanction it's all sanctions all good now what you're saying is is much actually
00:06:14.640much worse with China because while the SSPX is saying yes we're consecrating the bishops but
00:06:21.060we're not taking the Pope's authority by saying we're giving them a jurisdiction because he holds
00:06:25.500universal jurisdiction and is supposed to be able to give that jurisdiction, they're saying,
00:06:30.420no, no, we're not doing that. But the Chinese are. They're actually giving their so-called0.99
00:06:35.980bishops the jurisdiction as well, which of course then after the fact is Francis both and Leo now
00:06:41.120both say, oh yes, yes, of course it's fine. Please don't do that again, but it's fine.
00:06:44.440So what you're saying is what the Chinese are doing is much, much more severe.0.99
00:06:48.400It is more severe. And even in church history, there have been examples of things that are more0.99
00:06:53.540severe, which are remembered fondly. So for example, well, there are a number of instances
00:06:59.760with Eastern Catholic groups. We all know about like the great schism, you know, of the Eastern
00:07:06.040Orthodox, but throughout the first millennia of the church, there were a lot of, you know,
00:07:10.720the East is very complicated. It's not a, it's not a criticism. It's just, it's very multi-ritual.
00:07:16.240There are a lot of pastoral concerns in the true sense of the word. It was very different than the
00:07:20.720Western Roman Empire. So there were at times many instances of, let's say, not power struggles,
00:07:26.600but disputes about how Rome's authority ought to operate in a given jurisdiction without denying
00:07:34.360that Rome had the authority as such. And there were times where there was a break off of communion
00:07:39.780in a juridical sense, but it was never constituted as a schism in the history books. And then also
00:07:45.820So during the Arian crisis, there was a famous saint, Saint Eusebius of Samasota.
00:07:51.560He looked at the Arian problem where there were either Arians who denied the divinity of Christ or semi-Arians who, in a very Vatican II-ish kind of way, was like, we don't really know if they deny it or not because it's not really clear.
00:08:04.880And he went around and his logic was a priest is an alter Christus, is another Christ, and Christ is the divine physician for the healing of souls.
00:08:13.160and the church is the collection of souls in the mystical body of Christ. So the function of a
00:08:19.400priest or a bishop is actually for the healing of the church. So he went around consecrating bishops
00:08:23.720within dioceses where the diocesan bishop was either a heretic or like a semi-heretic
00:08:29.880and instructed people not to have anything to do with the diocesan bishop. And he's remembered as
00:08:35.940a hero, whereas the Arians are not. So there have been examples of this in church history for sure.0.58
00:08:41.980So the thing that everybody's now talking about, because I'm sure you've seen Diane Montagna picked up from Nico Spontini, the news that Cardinal Fernandez, the head of the DDF, has already prepared papers excommunicating.
00:08:58.880And then the question is excommunicating whom?
00:09:01.880So 1988, this happened with Jean-Paul II over that dispute with Lefebvre.
00:11:50.160But also what's interesting to note here, there's a really important element here that is above most people's heads because, of course, it is.
00:11:56.660The Society of St. Pius X was allegedly suppressed in 1965 or 75. That means it has no legal status.
00:12:04.480So you can call yourself whatever you want, but you're just a private association of the faithful
00:12:08.720with no canonical standing. So in 1988, they faced a conundrum because you can't excommunicate
00:12:14.320members of a group that doesn't legally exist by the name of the group. So they named the four
00:12:19.860bishops and the two consecrating bishops. Today, we face a similar problem because that 1975 issue
00:12:28.440was never fixed. It was only made more confusing in a good way for the society by Pope Francis,
00:12:34.000who recognized them as a group and gave them faculties and whatever, all that stuff.
00:12:37.840No matter what the authorities in Rome do, they face a massive canonical train wreck of their own
00:12:43.460making. Because if they say, members of the Society of St. Pius X, I hereby blah, blah, blah,
00:12:50.200lettes intensi, excommunicate, that sort of thing. Okay. Well, now that means that they've0.77
00:12:58.220never been in schism ever. A lot of commentators on the internet would not be happy. At the same
00:13:03.100time, it means that the whole time they have had a legitimate ministry in the sense that they're
00:13:09.480legally incorporated into the church, and they do have faculties. So Pope Benedict was wrong.
00:13:16.420And it would also mean that they would have the right to appeal. And the thing about the canon
00:13:23.320law in the church, it's supposed to be just. We get our civil law courts from the laws of the
00:13:29.580church, so it's supposed to be good, okay? We know with Bishop Vigano, it was a disaster the way they
00:13:34.240did that. They have the right to appeal. And then once you have a penalty that you put into appeal,
00:13:40.140well, now the effect of that penalty must be suspended until things have been sorted out.
00:13:46.140It's a complete lose-lose. And so I wouldn't put anything past them. I mean, we have a head
00:13:52.380of the DDF who writes basically a theological erotica. So I mean, all bets are off. At the
00:13:57.840same time, Fernandez is no dummy. And when he was having his conversation with Don Pagliarani,
00:14:03.280you'll notice Fernandez has a more traditional view of the theological character of Vatican II
00:14:10.560than Cardinal Mueller, because Cardinal Mueller is of the opinion that basically you have to accept
00:14:14.720the whole thing because it's basically infallible. He said that recently in Communio. Fernandez is
00:14:18.920saying, well, you know, we can have some dialogue and we'll talk about the various theological notes
00:14:24.380within the council, which is a very traditional thing. So Fernandez is very smart, regardless of
00:14:30.100when we think about him, he's not unintelligent. And it's exactly why I thought, and a lot of
00:14:34.280people thought, Leo's going to look the other way. But maybe this is all posturing. Maybe what
00:14:40.000they're doing is floating this so that the society reconsiders. The funniest part, and I hate to say
00:14:47.880it that way, but it was funny to me, was that Fernandez said, well, they were preparing for
00:14:53.180an influx of priests from the society or members from the society or whatever. Okay, I get it. In
00:14:59.4801888, that's how we got the fraternity of St. Peter, because there was, there was an influx
00:15:04.020of priests who didn't want to face the sanctions that were being meted out at the time. I think
00:15:10.440we're in a really different place at this point, but I'd love to hear your thoughts.
00:15:13.120Okay, listen, if you join the Society of St. Pius X to be a priest, like since the dawn of
00:15:19.260the internet, there's a very low percentage that you will have any issue with potential
00:15:26.740drama facing the society. I mean, in 1988, there, I think there were 12 priests who left, right?
00:15:33.880Out of about a hundred at the time. And so even that's kind of a small percentage when you think
00:15:39.240about, you know, how many priests there were and how short it had been around. And, but if you're
00:15:45.280joining the Society of St. Pius X now, you're not scared by this. You've already accepted it. You've
00:15:50.940already, you've already accepted the arguments. You've already accepted the reality that we're
00:15:55.440in a crisis and so on and so forth. And that it is the church teaches there's no salvation outside
00:16:00.060the church, but not that there's no salvation outside canon law. It's risible, I guess you
00:16:03.960might say. And but I will add this to what you said. You said you thought Leo might look the
00:16:09.800other way. I mean, who knows what's going to happen, John Henry, but he might. I mean, it's
00:16:15.820so weird that he has not had a single meeting with Don Pagliarani, not even to dress him down.
00:16:21.840I mean, Paul VI had multiple meetings with Archbishop Lefebvre.
00:16:25.120John Paul II didn't really have many, but he at least sent Ratzinger multiple times.
00:16:29.420In Don Pagliani's letter, he said Francis was more generous than Leo.
00:16:34.520That was the one that I think really caught people off guard.
00:16:41.220It's right to say something's really amiss.
00:16:44.660This guy, Leo, is meeting with Sarah Mullally.
00:16:47.860He's meeting with Father James Martin.1.00
00:16:49.640anybody and everybody under the sun, the fakest of fakes with a woman parading around as if she's1.00
00:16:57.920a priest, let alone bishop. And yet he won't meet with Dom Pagliarani, Bishop Filet, any of the SSPX1.00
00:17:06.800to go over this. And he's threatening them with excommunication. So that's just stunning all by
00:17:13.160itself. But please continue. That's the thing. Leo has not threatened anybody with anything.
00:17:16.780He hasn't said anything good or bad. Everyone who's made a bishop is supposed to either have official qualifications in canon law or demonstrate sufficiency in their understanding. And I believe Pope Leo has the actual qualifications.
00:17:34.420Now, this is no disrespect to canon lawyers, because I know canon lawyers, and there are some very good ones.
00:17:39.820But kind of like with lawyer lawyers, you know, there are individuals who you'd want them on your team, like a Chris Ferrara, you know, to do some sort of actual moral and philosophical arguments.
00:17:54.040And then there are those who find, you know, the night school, law school, just so they can get it, so they can, you know, help guys out with their ambulance chasing, right?
00:18:02.140There are lots of different types of canon lawyers and different schools to go to, and the criteria for accomplishing those isn't always the most stringent at certain seminaries.
00:18:12.660So I don't know how developed of a canon lawyer he is or how devoted, but if I just, you know, some guy with the internet and who can read can find things out, I would be very shocked if Pope Leo did not understand what was happening and what to do.
00:18:28.960for us residents creating a will has never been easier thanks to my legacy will an online platform
00:18:36.820free of charge you can now create your own will and choose to include life site news in it
00:18:42.140specify where your funeral will take place the number of masses to be offered for your soul
00:18:47.100and how your estate would be distributed we would be deeply grateful if you remembered
00:18:51.920life site news in your will visit mylegacywill.com slash life site news thank you for your support
00:18:59.060and may god bless you you wrote a book on the sspx um tell us a little bit about that uh where
00:19:09.140people can get it but also i want to hear about your open letter to the pope um from an sspx
00:19:14.260perspective like from a faithful uh who attends the sspx sure yeah i wrote a book called sspx the
00:19:19.340defense. And with a C, the King's English, John Henry, we spell with defense with a C here. I
00:19:25.040found myself in this weird niche where everyone's asking me what the SSPX, it's not something I
00:19:29.340sought out, it just kind of happened to me. And quite frankly, a couple years ago, three years
00:19:34.080ago, when it was released, there was a lot of kerfuffle about the society and sort of the
00:19:37.160podcast world. And I was looking at all the very various podcasts. And I'm like, I cannot make 40
00:19:43.180hours of videos, I do not have the time to do that. So I'll just write a book. And then I can
00:19:48.020sort of set it and forget it. So I just wrote a book that was a combination of a compilation of
00:19:54.140things I'd written in the past, expanded on them, and then new things. I would recommend it to
00:19:58.820people. The situation right now is in some ways different, but in some ways it's not different
00:20:05.120at all in like a legal perspective. The crisis as far as doctrine and stuff is arguably worse,
00:20:10.680but people can find that if you go to kennedyhall.ca slash books, that everything's there,
00:20:14.820or just look for SSPX, The Defense, on Amazon.
00:20:18.220So tell us about this letter you wrote to Pope Leo.
00:20:20.920One of the interior battles that a traditionalist always faces
00:20:24.140is the real battle to remain charitable.
00:20:43.500So you can go too far. And I've really had to wrestle with that in my own life, as I'm sure many people have. And there are many arguments that people can make in favor of the society that are canonical, that are strictly theological, etc. Fine, fine. You know, you could submit a lot of very strong dissertations for your PhD and focus on the society on all sides of the debate.
00:21:05.680but my patron is St. Augustine and our Pope is an Augustinian. And we had a son last year
00:21:14.800who was born and died on October 24th. And he was baptized, confirmed, and he's straight to heaven
00:21:22.120and he's the mass of the angels was celebrated for him by our priest and so forth. It was beautiful
00:21:26.100and obviously hard and still is, but his name was Gabriel Augustine. And so he's St. Gabriel
00:21:33.300Augustine. He's our family saint. And so I just thought to myself, you know, if I could ever
00:21:40.840talk to the Pope, not for my own purposes, I don't care, not about me. If our Pope is an
00:21:48.420Augustinian and he talks about being a man who wants to reconcile differences and so forth,
00:21:53.640you know, St. Augustine faced a similar thing in his time. He had to deal with the differences with
00:21:59.100the Arians and the Donatists and all that sort of stuff. And there were a lot of good people
00:22:03.740on all sides. And he was a great reconciler. And he had this maxim where it was, you know,
00:22:11.180we can dispute things, etc. But in all things, there must be charity. And if I could just speak
00:22:17.800to the Pope, I would just tell him what I said in the letter. I say, listen, a schismatic is
00:22:23.420someone who lacks charity in their soul, because schism is a sin against charity. That's why it's
00:22:27.380a mortal sin. For someone to be a schismatic, he must not be animated by charity. But I can only
00:22:34.920tell you, Holy Father, what's happened in my own life. Not only have the priests been there for my
00:22:39.300wife and children in regular times, but I mean, our diocese forbade infant baptisms during the
00:22:45.440COVID lockdowns. I don't even know if our diocese believes you need to be baptized.
00:22:50.780Whereas our priest is waiting there with my family at the off chance our son might live for a few minutes after he was born.
00:22:59.520He lived for a couple hours so that he can celebrate his short life with us and give him the sacraments.
00:23:06.560And, you know, I said in the article, I said, if my priest, Father Stannis, if he's a schismatic, then I'm a woman.
00:23:15.040Which should get me welcomed to the Vatican because I could dress up as a bishop.