In this episode of the John Henry Weston Show, Bishop Mariane Eleganti of the Archdiocese of Chur, Switzerland joins us to talk about the controversy surrounding the Pachamama statues in the Amazon, and why they should be destroyed.
00:00:00.300Welcome to this episode of the John Henry Weston Show, where I'm very pleased to bring to you Bishop Marian Eleganti from Chur, Switzerland.
00:00:07.460Welcome, Bishop Eleganti. This is going to be a great show, everyone. Stay tuned.
00:00:11.360Let's begin, as we always do, with the sign of the cross. Bishop Eleganti, if you could lead us, please.
00:00:34.500Yes. In the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit. Amen.
00:00:42.180So, very much with regard to what happened in the Amazon, at the Amazon Synod, there was this scandal of seemingly idolatry all over the Christian world.
00:00:52.680Not only Catholics were affected, but all Christians as well. And therefore, the whole wide world, all peoples looking at this.
00:00:59.340What were your impressions of what went on during the Amazon Synod, and especially with regard to the Pachamama statues?
00:01:05.580Yes. For a long moment, it was not so clear. For many, the communications directors interpreted it, or tried to interpret it in another way, just the symbol for life.
00:01:22.480But for me, it was clear from the very beginning that it is an idolatry, a sort of syncretistic veneration of that statue shouldn't be there.
00:01:40.080For me, it was clear from the very beginning. I felt it. And it was somehow intransparent.
00:01:49.840But it became more and more clear. And I wondered that the Holy Father did not explain for so long time, and then only in an unofficial way, in the Synod, Ola, that he said it was the Pachamama.
00:02:09.160And with this expression, it is clear for everybody who is more or less expert for these countries, Peru, Andes, that Pachamama is a deity, and even higher than Jesus Christ.
00:02:29.160And Mother Mary, I read from a priest who was there, and who experienced this cult of Pachamama.
00:02:41.160And so, for me, it's a no-go. And I think it is a little bit typical for South America in their Catholic way.
00:02:55.840There are syncretistic elements. And I experienced that also in my congregation. We are missionary Benedictines, and there is somehow always a struggle between culture and the gospel.
00:03:19.520And if you are not really on the way to holiness and very decided for Christ, a culture becomes more and more stronger, like a giant snake who devours the gospel somehow.
00:03:42.900The culture has to be purified. And as Peter said, we have abandoned all. Somehow we have to leave our home, our father's house, to get into the kingdom of God,
00:04:02.040which is a new way to see God, the absolute, and to be religious. But this syncretistic way, which abandons not what you have believed before, it's very dangerous.
00:04:24.180And the coming out is, for me, for me, it's not the Holy Spirit. It's somehow incompatible.
00:04:35.060Neither do you abandon your deities. For Israel, it was also the cult of Baal.
00:04:44.420And it's interesting that it's interesting that these idols were also in this church, St. Mary, which is for the Carmelites, our lady of Mount Carmel.
00:05:00.180And the prophet Elijah, who fought so strongly against the cult of Baal, that now idols were there with a thought of veneration and cult, which is really the opposite of what we need.
00:05:22.380We need Jesus Christ, we need Jesus Christ, and we need anything else.
00:05:26.380It's strange. We need anything else than Jesus Christ. And we have a mother.
00:05:33.780The earth is not our mother. It's creation. We have a mother.
00:05:40.180And we have also a common house. The common house is the church.
00:05:44.780And our father is the one in heaven, and Jesus Christ is our door.
00:05:53.380So, it's strange. I was somehow scandalized to see this bowing down in front of this idol, and also in front of a hill of earth.
00:06:12.880And the interesting thing is you took it upon yourself to mention this problem, even to the Pope.
00:06:21.880And I think that's, for one, very courageous. There's very few bishops who are doing that.
00:06:27.800What gave you the strength or the courage to voice your concerns, even with the Holy Father, even about the Holy Father?
00:06:35.320It was really not easy, and it is still not easy.
00:06:43.120For me, a starting point was the interpretation of Amaldi's Letizia, the footnote there.
00:06:52.280And we had the letter of the three bishops from Kazakhstan.
00:06:59.620And when I read their arguments, it was clear for me, when there is no certainty how to interpret this footnote, we have to interpret it on the line of tradition and of the previous teachings.
00:07:19.020And so, I signed this letter, which pled for an interpretation of the footnote in the line of the traditional teaching about marriage.
00:07:35.720And it was not, for me, an act against the Pope.
00:07:40.380It was an argument in re, we have to interpret it this way.
00:07:47.700But from this moment, I was considered as a rebellion or somebody who is against the Pope.
00:08:46.500I would have been not at calm and not at peace in my conscience if I would have continued to say nothing.
00:08:58.480Even if I am a little mouse, I am an auxiliary and the Pope has a media apparatus which multiplies what he says around the whole globe.
00:09:13.300I am very little, one has not to be, to fear a little critic as I pronounce it.
00:09:22.480But for me, I am not at peace in conscience as a bishop when I don't pronounce myself.
00:09:31.360And I never look to the person, I look only to the subject and I am seeking for the truth and for the right evidence.
00:09:42.600And it's a process in my conscience sometimes with alarms and long prayers to come to a just judgment and to ask the Lord to enlighten me that I don't fight at the end against him or his true prophets.
00:10:05.280I don't like to be an enemy of Christ, like Gamaliel said, if it comes from God, you should not fight against.
00:10:15.920If it is not from God, one will see with time.
00:10:19.360And so, I seek to be in a humble state.
00:10:28.240I don't like to criticize the Pope, but I have also a conscience and I observe the things.
00:10:36.980When I see these pictures, I have to have an opinion and I have a feeling.
00:10:42.580And so, although in other theological questions, and so, I think it never happens without pain and without prayer.
00:10:58.760But I feel, I feel an obligation in my heart.
00:11:03.740I would have a strange and a bad feeling if I would not dare to pronounce what I think it is true.
00:12:44.280So, yes, I think there are several reasons.
00:12:49.060I think there are among the bishops, there are always bishops which are more diplomatic, more political,
00:13:01.140which have a sense where not to pronounce too strongly because it brings also disadvantages or it's not so easy.
00:13:14.280And there is also within the church somehow a political way of procedure and of to think.
00:13:26.440And so it needs always courage to say your opinion openly and to receive the backlash and very bad comments and to suffer the disadvantages if you pronounce yourself in a too clear way.
00:13:52.780And every bishop has to decide in his conscience how he will proceed and how he will manage that.
00:14:01.900So I had always the character to be very open and to declare myself.
00:14:09.580But the clearer you speak, the clearer you have also the opposition because they have a clear profile to be against.
00:14:25.900So, and then I think also I wondered a little bit why the cardinals do not pronounce themselves in a more open way to help Peter.
00:14:43.740And also in his own judgment, it's really, you know, in this way, we have always to listen to the advice of others and to prove our opinion is not absolute.
00:15:01.180But I think that also the cardinals, they have no way to organize themselves.
00:15:09.180And if you think that 200 or 200 cardinals organized themselves to go in an open dialogue with Peter, it looks like a rebellion somehow because you have to organize it and you have, it's not so easy that it looks not like a rebellion,
00:15:33.760that it looks really in a friendly, open way, that it is in the Holy Spirit and in the common sorrow for the church, that we want an open discussion or an open meeting.
00:15:49.060And there were the consistories, but these were in the last five years, very short, there was no, as I heard, there was no long possibility to open themselves and to discuss with the Pope such a subject.
00:16:08.060So, and that's, that's, it's not good because the body of the, of the cardinals should also have a way how they dialogue, you know, openly with, with, with the Pope and he should give to them the possibility for this open discussion or to, to give the advice or to pronounce the sorrow.
00:16:36.100So, so, so I have the impression, the cardinals don't know each other.
00:16:41.540There are very, this desperate in all over the world and there are, have no, not a procedure to organize themselves to be in, easier in, in an open dialogue with, with the Pope.
00:17:01.160And that's also the case for the bishops, it's not so easy how to organize and how you had launched the petitions.
00:17:11.960And it's a way how many people can explain themselves or give a sign or express a need of answer or of an open dialogue, a petition.
00:17:26.520But when, for instance, bishops would start a petition that we would say, no, it's not possible that only 200 bishops from the Amazon region now suggest to, to undermine celibacy, which touches the universal church.
00:17:49.920I have the feeling, I have the feeling you should answer all bishops, not only a few number of handpicked bishops who have a common opinion from the very beginning.
00:18:03.320I think also the bishops all over the world should give a sign, a vote and say, hey, stop, not so quickly.
00:18:13.520We cannot abolish such a long tradition and such a high value as celibacy.
00:18:22.040Because celibacy, it was the way how our high priest, Jesus Christ, lived.
00:18:32.180The high priest, Jesus Christ, is the model.
00:29:26.660But they talked specifically about the idea of giving positions of acolyte and lector and some other ministries to women at the altar.
00:29:36.960And many people have argued, myself included, that this is nothing more than a stepping stone to women priesthood.
00:29:44.100And that eventually, if we see women on the altar frequently, in clerical garb of some sort, with official ministries, that eventually it will come to pass.
00:29:55.340This women priesthood will come to pass, even though that's an impossibility in the church.
00:30:00.460Bishop Kautla, who is a bishop in the Amazon and played a major role at the synod, was indeed asked by EWTN reporter or National Catholic Register reporter Ed Penton about this.
00:30:14.360And Bishop Kautla said, yes, indeed, it is a stepping stone.
00:30:17.480What are your takes on what was proposed around women and the whole issue of women deacons?
00:30:25.340Yes, I think the importance of a Christian should not be focused on liturgy.
00:30:33.900So to be important or more esteemed cannot mean to be more busy in the altar room.
00:30:42.660It's strange to connect that the actuosa participatio does not mean more people who are more busy in the altar room.
00:30:56.340And historically, historically, it's clear the introduction of altar girls was also an attempt to take away the focus of priesthood from men, from male clergy,
00:31:14.700and to make little steps and prepare another atmosphere and another feeling to come finally to the female priesthood as well, or to the marriage priesthood as well.
00:31:31.720So there were preparative steps, for me, that's clear, since the early years after the council one started with these steps and with a clear aim.
00:34:27.660It's bad for a male and for a female to, to seek for power in, in, in the church.
00:34:35.020There is a, a mystical experience that the church is female.
00:34:41.320The church is mother, spouse, servant.
00:34:45.120She's female and the woman incarnates.
00:34:48.960It's an incarnation of this female mystical nature of the church in, in her relationship to the bridegroom, Jesus Christ.
00:35:00.680And the woman shows that, she, she shows that.
00:35:07.600And, and, and the male priesthood is a symbol, a real symbol, and also a reality, a presence of the bridegroom in his relationship to his bride, the church.
00:35:22.700And when, I think, when we have this mystical life, also in our prayer life, we feel it from inside, that these things are not in competition.
00:36:06.280Not that we copy everything and that everything becomes fluid and, and, and, um, that, that woman thinks I am esteemed and important when I am as the men are or do it.
00:36:49.780And, uh, it's very understandable in the surrounding culture that in a whole body baptism, um, that, uh, a woman assists, uh, the act of baptism.
00:37:02.700Or that the man goes now in, in, in, in, in the rooms of a ill woman, um, because it touches the intimacy of, of, of, of their life.
00:37:16.060And so a woman brought the Eucharist, uh, to them, but it's not the same thing as in the ordination.
00:37:27.740And I don't understand why one really start this again with the commission, always about the same question, which was studied for years and which is clear, which is clear.
00:37:42.840And if, if, if it, in some prayers, not clear, because the church is very great and there were abuses in all centuries, one cannot say, because it was there written in a prayer, you cannot decide on this base, historically, everything.
00:38:05.680But the church had always the feeling, but the church had always the feeling not to ordain woman.
00:40:11.340So this supernatural nature will prevail all human and historical things and attacks and confusions that were all the time in every century of, of churches, of the church's life.
00:40:32.360So, and then I say, I, I, I observe also, uh, they are come, be a very faithful people, humble people, simple people in the best, um, best sense of the word, not in a, I don't contempt, uh, well, in the best sense, because they have the Holy Ghost, the Holy Spirit.
00:40:57.800They are, they are, they are, they love God.
00:41:00.060And so sometimes, so these people come to me and, and say something and I see that I have an evidence in her, a discernment.
00:41:13.920They have a discernment in their conscience.
00:41:19.880And that, that comes from high, that comes from their discipleship, from their love for the church.
00:41:27.800For faith, for the Lord, uh, and it comes from their, um, they are proven people who suffered and who showed themselves with strong faith, also in difficulties and, uh, in long marriages and they come and speak to me.
00:41:47.580And I, I, I really, sometimes, I wonder why this man has the discernment and we bishops, we don't have it.
00:42:01.340We don't have the discernment, but there, these people have it.
00:42:06.240And so it's my experience that you, you see, you can never convince with arguments.
00:42:13.800You can never win with arguments because you find arguments for everything.
00:42:20.200Also for the most stupid things, you find maybe good arguments.
00:42:25.280So it's not that which, uh, we cannot, uh, win the battle by discussions and by arguing because it depends on the deeper level, uh, the life in, in the conscience, this, this humble light, which, uh, St. John said, the light, uh, from the divine light came into the world.
00:42:49.800This light, this light, which enlightens every conscience, every heart.
00:42:55.460And if this light, when this light is there, and if the person is open to this light, the person has evidence.
00:43:09.420And when you argue, it confirms what she knows, what she feels already.
00:43:14.200So I trust a lot in this action of the Holy Spirit in every pure and humble heart.
00:43:26.060And this light will lead the church and the people who are ready for the kingdom of God.
00:43:34.400Those who are not ready, they don't accept this light, but it's not our problem.
00:43:40.440And it's not a question of arguments because also the Pharisees and the enemies of the Lord, they did not convert themselves because he argued well.
00:43:52.660And Jesus argued very well, like a genius sometimes.
00:46:28.800But I would not pretend to have the identification with the Lord or with the Holy Spirit.
00:46:36.300How can they say so often to be in the Holy Spirit and to know what the Holy Spirit wants and to know the signs of time, to interpret these signs in the just way.
00:46:52.640And all which don't agree, don't understand, are not in the Holy Spirit.
00:47:01.080That's a little bit too simple, I think.
00:47:04.140Yes, and as a last word, I would also say when we pronounce ourselves, one should always feel our love.
00:47:15.140And also the words that we use, one should feel the love.