The John-Henry Westen Show - Swiss Bishop explains why he dares to raise concerns about Pope Francis

00:00:00.300 Welcome to this episode of the John Henry Weston Show, where I'm very pleased to bring to you Bishop Marian Eleganti from Chur, Switzerland.

00:00:07.460 Welcome, Bishop Eleganti. This is going to be a great show, everyone. Stay tuned.

00:00:11.360 Let's begin, as we always do, with the sign of the cross. Bishop Eleganti, if you could lead us, please.

00:00:34.500 Yes. In the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit. Amen.

00:00:42.180 So, very much with regard to what happened in the Amazon, at the Amazon Synod, there was this scandal of seemingly idolatry all over the Christian world. 0.79

00:00:52.680 Not only Catholics were affected, but all Christians as well. And therefore, the whole wide world, all peoples looking at this.

00:00:59.340 What were your impressions of what went on during the Amazon Synod, and especially with regard to the Pachamama statues?

00:01:05.580 Yes. For a long moment, it was not so clear. For many, the communications directors interpreted it, or tried to interpret it in another way, just the symbol for life.

00:01:22.480 But for me, it was clear from the very beginning that it is an idolatry, a sort of syncretistic veneration of that statue shouldn't be there.

00:01:40.080 For me, it was clear from the very beginning. I felt it. And it was somehow intransparent.

00:01:49.840 But it became more and more clear. And I wondered that the Holy Father did not explain for so long time, and then only in an unofficial way, in the Synod, Ola, that he said it was the Pachamama.

00:02:09.160 And with this expression, it is clear for everybody who is more or less expert for these countries, Peru, Andes, that Pachamama is a deity, and even higher than Jesus Christ.

00:02:29.160 And Mother Mary, I read from a priest who was there, and who experienced this cult of Pachamama.

00:02:41.160 And so, for me, it's a no-go. And I think it is a little bit typical for South America in their Catholic way. 0.99

00:02:55.840 There are syncretistic elements. And I experienced that also in my congregation. We are missionary Benedictines, and there is somehow always a struggle between culture and the gospel.

00:03:19.520 And if you are not really on the way to holiness and very decided for Christ, a culture becomes more and more stronger, like a giant snake who devours the gospel somehow.

00:03:42.900 The culture has to be purified. And as Peter said, we have abandoned all. Somehow we have to leave our home, our father's house, to get into the kingdom of God,

00:04:02.040 which is a new way to see God, the absolute, and to be religious. But this syncretistic way, which abandons not what you have believed before, it's very dangerous.

00:04:24.180 And the coming out is, for me, for me, it's not the Holy Spirit. It's somehow incompatible.

00:04:35.060 Neither do you abandon your deities. For Israel, it was also the cult of Baal. 0.75

00:04:44.420 And it's interesting that it's interesting that these idols were also in this church, St. Mary, which is for the Carmelites, our lady of Mount Carmel.

00:05:00.180 And the prophet Elijah, who fought so strongly against the cult of Baal, that now idols were there with a thought of veneration and cult, which is really the opposite of what we need.

00:05:22.380 We need Jesus Christ, we need Jesus Christ, and we need anything else. 0.81

00:05:26.380 It's strange. We need anything else than Jesus Christ. And we have a mother.

00:05:33.780 The earth is not our mother. It's creation. We have a mother.

00:05:40.180 And we have also a common house. The common house is the church.

00:05:44.780 And our father is the one in heaven, and Jesus Christ is our door.

00:05:53.380 So, it's strange. I was somehow scandalized to see this bowing down in front of this idol, and also in front of a hill of earth.

00:06:09.200 And it's not Christian for me. 0.69

00:06:12.880 And the interesting thing is you took it upon yourself to mention this problem, even to the Pope.

00:06:21.880 And I think that's, for one, very courageous. There's very few bishops who are doing that.

00:06:27.800 What gave you the strength or the courage to voice your concerns, even with the Holy Father, even about the Holy Father?

00:06:35.320 It was really not easy, and it is still not easy.

00:06:43.120 For me, a starting point was the interpretation of Amaldi's Letizia, the footnote there.

00:06:52.280 And we had the letter of the three bishops from Kazakhstan.

00:06:59.620 And when I read their arguments, it was clear for me, when there is no certainty how to interpret this footnote, we have to interpret it on the line of tradition and of the previous teachings.

00:07:19.020 And so, I signed this letter, which pled for an interpretation of the footnote in the line of the traditional teaching about marriage.

00:07:35.720 And it was not, for me, an act against the Pope.

00:07:40.380 It was an argument in re, we have to interpret it this way.

00:07:47.700 But from this moment, I was considered as a rebellion or somebody who is against the Pope.

00:07:57.740 And that's a phenomenon.

00:08:03.960 I cannot change it.

00:08:06.560 But we argued to the subject, not to the person.

00:08:14.960 And I'm still convinced that it is right.

00:08:19.180 But you see, if it is a critic, it comes out of really of sufferings, long sufferings in the time before and also in the very moment.

00:08:36.700 And I was in the chapel, in my chapel, in prayer, really in deep prayer.

00:08:42.960 And it came out of my prayer.

00:08:46.500 I would have been not at calm and not at peace in my conscience if I would have continued to say nothing.

00:08:58.480 Even if I am a little mouse, I am an auxiliary and the Pope has a media apparatus which multiplies what he says around the whole globe.

00:09:13.300 I am very little, one has not to be, to fear a little critic as I pronounce it.

00:09:22.480 But for me, I am not at peace in conscience as a bishop when I don't pronounce myself.

00:09:31.360 And I never look to the person, I look only to the subject and I am seeking for the truth and for the right evidence.

00:09:42.600 And it's a process in my conscience sometimes with alarms and long prayers to come to a just judgment and to ask the Lord to enlighten me that I don't fight at the end against him or his true prophets.

00:10:05.280 I don't like to be an enemy of Christ, like Gamaliel said, if it comes from God, you should not fight against.

00:10:15.920 If it is not from God, one will see with time.

00:10:19.360 And so, I seek to be in a humble state.

00:10:28.240 I don't like to criticize the Pope, but I have also a conscience and I observe the things.

00:10:36.980 When I see these pictures, I have to have an opinion and I have a feeling.

00:10:42.580 And so, although in other theological questions, and so, I think it never happens without pain and without prayer.

00:10:58.760 But I feel, I feel an obligation in my heart.

00:11:03.740 I would have a strange and a bad feeling if I would not dare to pronounce what I think it is true.

00:11:17.440 One can also argue against.

00:11:21.020 I'm just a human, but when you ask me, I argue this way and obeying the evidence in my conscience.

00:11:30.140 Yeah, it is one of the questions, I think, that so many people today have had, so many Catholics who are watching what's going on,

00:11:42.580 who are trying to understand the state of the church right now.

00:11:49.660 They're seeing a mass confusion like they've never seen before.

00:11:54.240 And yet, you are one of the very, very few bishops or cardinals who have said anything.

00:12:02.640 There's literally almost just over a handful of bishops and cardinals who have expressed concern about what's going on.

00:12:10.240 I don't know if you can answer this, but why would you say that?

00:12:14.780 I mean, it's so unbelievable for the faithful because they think, you know,

00:12:18.460 well, if something really bad is going on, surely the bishops will speak out.

00:12:23.280 They will correct it.

00:12:24.520 Paul corrected St. Peter, the first pope.

00:12:27.320 So surely there's a longstanding tradition in the church of this kind of thing.

00:12:31.500 But we're only hearing it from a handful of people.

00:12:35.400 So that exacerbates the huge confusion in the church because they think, well, everybody's going along with it.

00:12:42.700 This must be the way we need to go.

00:12:44.280 So, yes, I think there are several reasons.

00:12:49.060 I think there are among the bishops, there are always bishops which are more diplomatic, more political,

00:13:01.140 which have a sense where not to pronounce too strongly because it brings also disadvantages or it's not so easy.

00:13:14.280 And there is also within the church somehow a political way of procedure and of to think.

00:13:26.440 And so it needs always courage to say your opinion openly and to receive the backlash and very bad comments and to suffer the disadvantages if you pronounce yourself in a too clear way.

00:13:49.220 So that's a general problem.

00:13:51.220 So that's a general problem.

00:13:52.780 And every bishop has to decide in his conscience how he will proceed and how he will manage that.

00:14:01.900 So I had always the character to be very open and to declare myself.

00:14:09.580 But the clearer you speak, the clearer you have also the opposition because they have a clear profile to be against.

00:14:25.900 So, and then I think also I wondered a little bit why the cardinals do not pronounce themselves in a more open way to help Peter.

00:14:43.740 And also in his own judgment, it's really, you know, in this way, we have always to listen to the advice of others and to prove our opinion is not absolute.

00:15:01.180 But I think that also the cardinals, they have no way to organize themselves.

00:15:09.180 And if you think that 200 or 200 cardinals organized themselves to go in an open dialogue with Peter, it looks like a rebellion somehow because you have to organize it and you have, it's not so easy that it looks not like a rebellion,

00:15:33.760 that it looks really in a friendly, open way, that it is in the Holy Spirit and in the common sorrow for the church, that we want an open discussion or an open meeting.

00:15:49.060 And there were the consistories, but these were in the last five years, very short, there was no, as I heard, there was no long possibility to open themselves and to discuss with the Pope such a subject.

00:16:08.060 So, and that's, that's, it's not good because the body of the, of the cardinals should also have a way how they dialogue, you know, openly with, with, with the Pope and he should give to them the possibility for this open discussion or to, to give the advice or to pronounce the sorrow.

00:16:36.100 So, so, so I have the impression, the cardinals don't know each other.

00:16:41.540 There are very, this desperate in all over the world and there are, have no, not a procedure to organize themselves to be in, easier in, in an open dialogue with, with the Pope.

00:17:01.160 And that's also the case for the bishops, it's not so easy how to organize and how you had launched the petitions.

00:17:11.960 And it's a way how many people can explain themselves or give a sign or express a need of answer or of an open dialogue, a petition.

00:17:26.520 But when, for instance, bishops would start a petition that we would say, no, it's not possible that only 200 bishops from the Amazon region now suggest to, to undermine celibacy, which touches the universal church.

00:17:49.920 I have the feeling, I have the feeling you should answer all bishops, not only a few number of handpicked bishops who have a common opinion from the very beginning.

00:18:03.320 I think also the bishops all over the world should give a sign, a vote and say, hey, stop, not so quickly.

00:18:13.520 We cannot abolish such a long tradition and such a high value as celibacy.

00:18:22.040 Because celibacy, it was the way how our high priest, Jesus Christ, lived.

00:18:32.180 The high priest, Jesus Christ, is the model.

00:18:36.300 And he lived without family.

00:18:38.860 He is the model.

00:18:40.900 How can we dream of another way of life if you have a family?

00:18:46.940 It's clear.

00:18:48.100 Priority is the family.

00:18:50.100 You are a family father.

00:18:52.040 In the first place is your wife and your children. 0.75

00:18:56.540 And if they allow that you do other things in limited measures, you can do it.

00:19:03.480 So long that you don't destroy your own family and your own marriage.

00:19:11.840 So it's also a freedom.

00:19:13.940 I felt it during my whole life also as a young man when I decided myself for priesthood.

00:19:23.000 I knew I have to live for many people.

00:19:26.220 I cannot focus only on five, six people as a family.

00:19:31.340 It's not my call.

00:19:33.140 It's not my vocation.

00:19:35.000 So I cannot understand that one says that's only ecclesiastical law or just a discipline.

00:19:47.240 No, it's much deeper.

00:19:49.880 It touches your relationship to the Lord and how to follow him.

00:19:55.620 And Peter said, Lord, we have all abandoned all.

00:19:59.460 What do we receive?

00:20:01.020 So we have abandoned.

00:20:03.000 So to follow you and to be at full disposition of the kingdom of God and of the Lord.

00:20:10.240 So you have to abandon.

00:20:12.860 But if you are based in your own family with your children, with your wife, where is this abundance of everything?

00:20:23.560 And to be free and at disposition for the whole church and for many, many people.

00:20:31.680 As a bishop, I could not live the way I live with the family.

00:20:36.900 And also in Eastern Church, they know it quite well.

00:20:41.880 The bishops are all celibate.

00:20:46.060 Why?

00:20:46.400 Because they need this freedom to be at this position.

00:20:53.800 And so to abandon such important and such an evangelical way of discipleship.

00:21:06.200 I cannot understand that it can go so quickly.

00:21:10.040 Some weeks, few discussions, and then an exhortatio that the Pope writes to make exceptions.

00:21:22.380 But everybody knows it will not remain exceptional for Amazon region.

00:21:29.100 The Germans are already waiting. 1.00

00:21:31.960 They have also lack of priests.

00:21:34.840 It will undermine celibacy.

00:21:39.160 At the end, we have only the monks and religious people who leave the celibacy.

00:21:47.060 And then they will take again the bishops from the monasteries.

00:21:53.220 And so because I see all we have many married deacons, but you cannot transfer a whole family from one place to another so easily.

00:22:06.820 The children go to school.

00:22:09.420 It's not easy.

00:22:11.240 So they have to be based.

00:22:13.040 They have a house.

00:22:14.280 They don't abandon their house.

00:22:17.120 They have constructed.

00:22:18.640 So we create a lot, a lot, a lot of new problems.

00:22:23.040 And we will also have the divorces.

00:22:25.040 For the moment, it seems like a little solution for the Eucharist. 0.63

00:22:36.500 But in long terms, we will not gain anything.

00:22:43.100 But we will lose a lot of.

00:22:45.500 That's my opinion.

00:22:47.100 That's my conscience.

00:22:47.980 But it's also what I live.

00:22:52.100 Yeah, I think you've drawn a very important distinction there.

00:22:55.480 Because all people who are called to Christ are called to give themselves fully to Christ.

00:23:02.520 And so married men and women too.

00:23:04.660 And yet there is this ability to give yourself to the work for the mystical body of Christ, the church.

00:23:13.100 And you're right.

00:23:13.960 It's impossible as a married man with wife and children to devote yourself to other members of the church

00:23:23.080 in a way that you'd be called to as a priest or bishop or perhaps sometimes even as a deacon.

00:23:29.320 And these things are impossible to do.

00:23:31.920 So whereas we have that, everybody tries to love Christ first and give ourselves over completely to him.

00:23:37.660 The ability to serve the mystical body of Christ, the church, inner members,

00:23:41.240 is really impossible for married men in the way it is possible for pastors and for priests and bishops.

00:23:49.260 The difficulty comes with the question of deacons.

00:23:55.140 It's already allowed.

00:23:56.160 You mentioned the Eastern Church.

00:23:57.880 People argue, well, it's already around in the Eastern Church and deacons are allowed.

00:24:04.240 What's the difference here?

00:24:06.160 This is, you know, deacons are called to go out to the world too, to serve the mystical body of Christ.

00:24:13.740 The members of the church, that is.

00:24:15.340 How are they supposed to do it if they have wife and children?

00:24:17.840 Yes, but they have to be based on a place.

00:24:27.620 They cannot move with their families as we move.

00:24:31.980 And they need time for their families.

00:24:34.580 They need vacations.

00:24:36.300 They need weekends.

00:24:37.300 They need time to spend also with their own wife, with the children.

00:24:43.440 Children need presents.

00:24:45.140 So that's objective.

00:24:46.540 I don't say that we have a better love or somehow a deeper love than married fathers and mothers.

00:24:55.200 And I adore many married people.

00:24:59.320 I would say they have a less selfish way of life very often than we have.

00:25:09.520 So we have also, it's not a judgment about holiness or about love of God.

00:25:16.580 It's only an objective limitation that you have limits.

00:25:21.620 The family gives you a certain frame.

00:25:26.020 You cannot go beyond this frame.

00:25:29.720 And that is needed, I think, for a missionary, for a priest, for a bishop, to have this possibility

00:25:46.600 to be around day and night, to be this accessible.

00:25:54.080 And also, you don't belong to anybody.

00:25:58.060 It helps also the persons to trust in you, to speak openly to you, because they feel you

00:26:06.700 don't belong to anybody.

00:26:08.760 So you are open to everybody.

00:26:12.180 And so there are many aspects I think we should really consider.

00:26:19.180 And I would really make a strong vote for Thelibati by very different reasons, from the deepest

00:26:31.020 mystical reasons until operational and objective reasons for the way of life.

00:26:39.920 And it's a sign.

00:26:41.920 And it's also an eschatological sign, because Jesus says we will be all like angels in heaven.

00:26:52.240 So we don't need to limit ourselves as it is in the family, because sexual life, you can

00:27:02.200 only become one flesh with one person.

00:27:05.260 So it's a limit.

00:27:06.520 But in the heaven, we love everybody.

00:27:10.640 It's wide, even if your wife remains and your children remain in eternity. 0.95

00:27:18.460 Your children and the important persons for the realization of your vocation and your call.

00:27:27.260 So the history is not abolished.

00:27:29.980 They remain close to you, unique for you.

00:27:33.520 But we have not to procreate creatures.

00:27:38.260 We have not to have sex, but we have also the procreation.

00:27:42.740 So that changes.

00:27:44.240 And somehow, as the priest is already also a sign for this coming kingdom.

00:27:52.900 And so, it's beautiful.

00:27:57.380 I don't understand.

00:28:00.180 And one has to be realistic.

00:28:02.640 We know men.

00:28:05.760 And we know human nature.

00:28:08.380 And we know the history.

00:28:09.860 And so, how can we start to undermine this way of life, which was really very congruent for a priestly existence?

00:28:24.300 As also, the council said, we are only 50 years after Vatican II.

00:28:32.120 Vatican II is always cited a reference, an authority.

00:28:41.420 And in this point, the council's authority, which pled clearly not to change telepathy,

00:28:50.840 and also some senos afterwards confirmed this statement of the council for the Latin church.

00:28:59.880 We will not change that.

00:29:01.060 And how one tries now, in such a quick way, to change and to decide such a question.

00:29:14.300 Right.

00:29:14.980 One last consideration, I guess, at the synod was also brought up this notion of a suggestion for female deacon.

00:29:23.020 They didn't go all the way there.

00:29:25.620 They said they'd study it.

00:29:26.660 But they talked specifically about the idea of giving positions of acolyte and lector and some other ministries to women at the altar.

00:29:36.960 And many people have argued, myself included, that this is nothing more than a stepping stone to women priesthood.

00:29:44.100 And that eventually, if we see women on the altar frequently, in clerical garb of some sort, with official ministries, that eventually it will come to pass.

00:29:55.340 This women priesthood will come to pass, even though that's an impossibility in the church. 1.00

00:30:00.460 Bishop Kautla, who is a bishop in the Amazon and played a major role at the synod, was indeed asked by EWTN reporter or National Catholic Register reporter Ed Penton about this.

00:30:14.360 And Bishop Kautla said, yes, indeed, it is a stepping stone.

00:30:17.480 What are your takes on what was proposed around women and the whole issue of women deacons?

00:30:25.340 Yes, I think the importance of a Christian should not be focused on liturgy.

00:30:33.900 So to be important or more esteemed cannot mean to be more busy in the altar room.

00:30:42.660 It's strange to connect that the actuosa participatio does not mean more people who are more busy in the altar room.

00:30:56.340 And historically, historically, it's clear the introduction of altar girls was also an attempt to take away the focus of priesthood from men, from male clergy,

00:31:14.700 and to make little steps and prepare another atmosphere and another feeling to come finally to the female priesthood as well, or to the marriage priesthood as well.

00:31:31.720 So there were preparative steps, for me, that's clear, since the early years after the council one started with these steps and with a clear aim.

00:31:49.240 And it never disappeared.

00:31:51.760 And it has also the fact that if there are too many girls in the altar boys group,

00:31:59.320 but so the boys don't like to remain in the group, they are too many girls. 0.99

00:32:05.900 So sometimes the boys disappeared and we have only altar girls.

00:32:11.400 So that's all.

00:32:12.400 But it's not, they are kind, lovable girls.

00:32:16.440 It's not their fault.

00:32:18.220 But it's not a good evolution.

00:32:23.320 And I met a parish where the girls made the sacristy. 0.72

00:32:27.760 They prepared the altar, the altar, the flowers, the garbs, the ornaments, and the clothing.

00:32:35.260 And they were, are very, they do it in another way than men or boys.

00:32:41.420 And they did it very well.

00:32:43.060 And the boys served that mass.

00:32:45.580 And it was together, very beautiful and very successful.

00:32:49.500 And, but for me, a female deacon, it's an absolute no-go, because priesthood is clear. 1.00

00:32:58.740 Bishop, priest, deacon is one priestly sacrament.

00:33:03.960 And John Paul II stated it very clearly and forever and ever.

00:33:08.940 Here, there is a no-go and we will, I'm convinced, we never will have female deacons who are ordained in the same way as the priest 1.00

00:33:23.060 and who has the same competencies, the same sacral power.

00:33:30.820 And so, but for instance, an abadess is also for, for the monials, she, she, she receives a blessing, but it's not an ordination.

00:33:46.440 It's a blessing.

00:33:47.540 So, if they create a blessing for a service which a woman realizes in a parish, a special blessing, somehow I could understand it.

00:34:05.160 But the problem is the attitude.

00:34:07.880 With which attitude have you cleared ideas in, in the deepest of your heart?

00:34:16.040 And are you, have you forgotten yourself?

00:34:20.820 What do, what do you want?

00:34:23.140 Do you want power?

00:34:25.500 What's that?

00:34:27.660 It's bad for a male and for a female to, to seek for power in, in, in the church. 0.99

00:34:35.020 There is a, a mystical experience that the church is female.

00:34:41.320 The church is mother, spouse, servant.

00:34:45.120 She's female and the woman incarnates. 1.00

00:34:48.960 It's an incarnation of this female mystical nature of the church in, in her relationship to the bridegroom, Jesus Christ.

00:35:00.680 And the woman shows that, she, she shows that. 0.97

00:35:07.600 And, and, and the male priesthood is a symbol, a real symbol, and also a reality, a presence of the bridegroom in his relationship to his bride, the church.

00:35:22.700 And when, I think, when we have this mystical life, also in our prayer life, we feel it from inside, that these things are not in competition.

00:35:40.500 It's not about clericalism.

00:35:43.480 It's not about me.

00:35:45.000 It's, it's, it's, it's a greater mystery, the difference of woman and, and, and men.

00:35:56.740 And only the church insists nowadays on this difference.

00:36:03.840 But the difference is the richness.

00:36:06.280 Not that we copy everything and that everything becomes fluid and, and, and, um, that, that woman thinks I am esteemed and important when I am as the men are or do it.

00:36:25.020 When I do the same thing as men do. 0.77

00:36:27.980 And so, I think it, it must be a difference.

00:36:31.600 And it was always a bit, a difference in the church.

00:36:35.040 Also, this, uh, historical, uh, phenomenon of, um, female deaconesses.

00:36:42.360 I call them deaconesses because there were no deacons.

00:36:46.680 There were deaconesses.

00:36:48.240 It's a difference.

00:36:49.780 And, uh, it's very understandable in the surrounding culture that in a whole body baptism, um, that, uh, a woman assists, uh, the act of baptism.

00:37:02.700 Or that the man goes now in, in, in, in, in the rooms of a ill woman, um, because it touches the intimacy of, of, of, of their life.

00:37:16.060 And so a woman brought the Eucharist, uh, to them, but it's not the same thing as in the ordination.

00:37:27.740 And I don't understand why one really start this again with the commission, always about the same question, which was studied for years and which is clear, which is clear.

00:37:42.840 And if, if, if it, in some prayers, not clear, because the church is very great and there were abuses in all centuries, one cannot say, because it was there written in a prayer, you cannot decide on this base, historically, everything.

00:38:05.680 But the church had always the feeling, but the church had always the feeling not to ordain woman.

00:38:12.300 That's a clear vote.

00:38:14.820 The church knew it.

00:38:17.600 The church was assisted by the Holy Spirit.

00:38:21.460 And we don't have now the Holy Spirit after 2000 years to correct the church because they failed in such question.

00:38:31.540 She failed in such a important question.

00:38:35.180 She had, the church had the assistance of the Holy Spirit through all the time.

00:38:41.320 So we cannot pretend to have the Holy Spirit more than they had it from the very beginning.

00:38:48.480 And the church had always the knowledge and the feeling not to ordain woman because it's about Jesus.

00:38:56.260 Right.

00:38:56.780 What, um, today in the church, there is much, much confusion.

00:39:00.960 And what would your suggestion be for the faithful to deal with this confusion and yet live out their faith in the strongest way possible?

00:39:10.160 I am very trustful.

00:39:13.640 I have much confidence in the supernatural nature of the church.

00:39:19.760 It's always Christ living in the church.

00:39:24.000 She is his body, mystical body.

00:39:27.560 And the Lord remains the Lord of times and the Lord of the church.

00:39:33.900 So we will not perish.

00:39:35.720 The supernatural dynamic and life inside the church will be stronger and prevail every confusion and attack from the enemy, if you want.

00:39:52.980 So in this sense, I am at peace and I have confidence in the Lord.

00:40:02.380 He will, he will show himself as the Lord of his church.

00:40:10.040 And we will, we will see.

00:40:11.340 So this supernatural nature will prevail all human and historical things and attacks and confusions that were all the time in every century of, of churches, of the church's life.

00:40:32.360 So, and then I say, I, I, I observe also, uh, they are come, be a very faithful people, humble people, simple people in the best, um, best sense of the word, not in a, I don't contempt, uh, well, in the best sense, because they have the Holy Ghost, the Holy Spirit.

00:40:57.800 They are, they are, they are, they love God.

00:41:00.060 And so sometimes, so these people come to me and, and say something and I see that I have an evidence in her, a discernment.

00:41:13.920 They have a discernment in their conscience.

00:41:16.860 They see and they discern.

00:41:19.880 And that, that comes from high, that comes from their discipleship, from their love for the church.

00:41:27.800 For faith, for the Lord, uh, and it comes from their, um, they are proven people who suffered and who showed themselves with strong faith, also in difficulties and, uh, in long marriages and they come and speak to me.

00:41:47.580 And I, I, I really, sometimes, I wonder why this man has the discernment and we bishops, we don't have it.

00:41:59.000 We think like politicians.

00:42:01.340 We don't have the discernment, but there, these people have it.

00:42:06.240 And so it's my experience that you, you see, you can never convince with arguments.

00:42:13.800 You can never win with arguments because you find arguments for everything. 0.97

00:42:20.200 Also for the most stupid things, you find maybe good arguments.

00:42:25.280 So it's not that which, uh, we cannot, uh, win the battle by discussions and by arguing because it depends on the deeper level, uh, the life in, in the conscience, this, this humble light, which, uh, St. John said, the light, uh, from the divine light came into the world. 0.93

00:42:49.800 This light, this light, which enlightens every conscience, every heart.

00:42:55.460 And if this light, when this light is there, and if the person is open to this light, the person has evidence.

00:43:07.020 And there you have not to argue.

00:43:09.420 And when you argue, it confirms what she knows, what she feels already.

00:43:14.200 So I trust a lot in this action of the Holy Spirit in every pure and humble heart.

00:43:26.060 And this light will lead the church and the people who are ready for the kingdom of God.

00:43:34.400 Those who are not ready, they don't accept this light, but it's not our problem.

00:43:40.440 And it's not a question of arguments because also the Pharisees and the enemies of the Lord, they did not convert themselves because he argued well.

00:43:52.660 And Jesus argued very well, like a genius sometimes.

00:43:56.740 And he was also very pure.

00:43:59.100 So how can you resist?

00:44:01.260 So you can resist, but that's, it has another reason.

00:44:06.680 So there I say, stop to speak and to discuss.

00:44:11.480 Because when you see, there is no comprehension.

00:44:16.120 So don't continue to battle on the level of arguments.

00:44:22.180 But follow the light in your heart.

00:44:24.840 Follow the light in your heart when you are very humble in front of God.

00:44:32.080 But we have to be humble.

00:44:34.240 And the sufferings make us humble. 1.00

00:44:37.540 And also to be contempted, to be loved, to be considered as stupid or rigid. 0.97

00:44:44.680 Or all the anxieties purifies our hearts. 0.93

00:44:49.000 So that we, afterwards you know you don't seek to yourself because it's not such a pleasant job.

00:44:59.000 You do, but you have all these disadvantages and opposition and content.

00:45:05.120 But it makes you humble and nude in front of God.

00:45:12.920 And then you are open for this light.

00:45:16.540 And then realize what the Lord convinces you of in your conscience.

00:45:26.120 Do that, but don't do anything where the Lord does not convince you in the conscience.

00:45:37.380 But of course, sometimes it's with much pain that we pray the Lord to enlighten us.

00:45:45.360 And I am always a little bit suspicious because they speak very often about reform and about the Holy Spirit.

00:45:57.080 And the critics have not the Holy Spirit.

00:46:00.800 And they are sometimes a little bit too sure to be in the Holy Spirit.

00:46:08.180 I'm never so sure to be in the Holy Spirit.

00:46:12.400 I could never pretend to say I am in the Holy Spirit.

00:46:16.580 I pray, I seek, I suffer, and I try to be sincere and transparent.

00:46:25.000 And I listen also to the arguments.

00:46:28.800 But I would not pretend to have the identification with the Lord or with the Holy Spirit.

00:46:36.300 How can they say so often to be in the Holy Spirit and to know what the Holy Spirit wants and to know the signs of time, to interpret these signs in the just way.

00:46:52.640 And all which don't agree, don't understand, are not in the Holy Spirit.

00:47:01.080 That's a little bit too simple, I think.

00:47:04.140 Yes, and as a last word, I would also say when we pronounce ourselves, one should always feel our love.

00:47:15.140 And also the words that we use, one should feel the love.

00:47:20.820 Not with two hard words.

00:47:26.060 The love has to come through.

00:47:31.180 The Lord be with you.

00:47:33.360 And with your spirit.

00:47:35.760 May Almighty God bless you all, the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit.

00:47:43.160 Amen.

00:47:44.760 Hello, this is John Henry Weston.

00:47:46.700 I'd like to invite you to subscribe to the John Henry Weston Show YouTube channel if you haven't already done so.

00:47:52.920 There you will find all the past episodes and much more.

00:47:56.440 Thanks again for watching.

00:47:57.960 And may God bless you.

00:48:03.360 Have a great day.

The John-Henry Westen Show - November 30, 2019

Swiss Bishop explains why he dares to raise concerns about Pope Francis

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