The John-Henry Westen Show - The Surprising Truth： Jesus Taught the Apostles the Roman Canon – Eucharistic Prayer #1!

00:00:00.000 The notion of the priest facing the people is purely Protestant.

00:00:03.920 It's not an early church thing. It's purely Protestant to have the priest face you.

00:00:15.120 What if I told you that, you know those Eucharistic prayers at every Mass, there's like

00:00:21.140 four, there's some that are really short, there's that really long one, and there's one that they

00:00:25.580 do at Christmas and so on. But what if I told you that only one of those was actually given by Jesus

00:00:33.400 to the apostles? That's going to sound really strange, right? But it's actually written in

00:00:41.260 the Council of Trent that Jesus gave it over to the apostles. I was stunned when I heard that.

00:00:48.420 My next guest is going to talk to us all about that. His name is Father David Nix. Father Nix

00:00:54.000 is a diocesan hermit. He has been a priest for 14 years. He spent the first seven years

00:00:59.720 saying the Novus Ordo Mass, and the last seven, he's been saying only the traditional Latin Mass.

00:01:06.400 He's got really good reason for that. He was also a paramedic before, and so stay tuned for

00:01:12.100 this episode of the John Hedden Weston Show. This October 17th and 18th, we are going to be

00:01:19.060 running Rome Life Forum in Exile. We're doing that in Kansas City, Missouri. This fine bishop,

00:01:25.280 Bishop Joseph Strickland, sort of in exile, is going to be joining us there, as well as Dr. Janet Smith,

00:01:30.760 as well as prophecy expert Xavier Aral, and many more, including a special guest. Hope to see you

00:01:38.780 there. Hope to see you there. God bless you. Romelifeforum.com. Sign up now.

00:01:45.940 Father David Nix, so good to be with you. Good to see you again, Mr. Weston. Thanks for having me.

00:01:49.940 Let's begin, as you always do, with the sign of the cross. If you wouldn't mind, Father,

00:01:52.860 leading us, please. In no many patris, et fidi, et spiritu santi. Amen.

00:01:58.000 Amen. Amen. So, Father, this was stunning. We were both at a traditional women's conference

00:02:04.400 near Denver in Colorado, and your talk, you said this, and I was like, what? The first

00:02:12.700 Eucharistic prayer, also known as the Roman Canon, was given by Christ the Apostles and

00:02:17.980 the Council of Trent says, so tell us about that. Yeah, it's kind of a showstopper, isn't it? As

00:02:21.940 you mentioned, I did the Novus Ordo for seven years, and now I do the Latin Mass, and maybe I'll

00:02:26.600 give the same disclaimer I did at the women's conference, that I'm not judging anybody that

00:02:30.160 goes to the Novus Ordo in this, but I think we need to look at the historical reasons, because

00:02:34.440 there's a lot of modern myths out there about the development of liturgy, and so I think we

00:02:39.200 agreed off the air this would be just a good time to look at the history of it. So this isn't a moral

00:02:43.200 appraisal of those who go to the New Sacraments, but it's kind of a straightening out of the

00:02:48.760 understanding of history, and what did Christ actually give to the Apostles as far as the

00:02:54.680 sacraments? Because there's a myth that's taught in a lot of the seminaries these days that

00:02:59.440 the new seven sacraments are actually older than the medieval sacraments, and that kind

00:03:05.220 of makes sense, because what they'll say is the early church was very simple, and therefore

00:03:10.580 we've returned to the early church in the simplicity of the Novus Ordo, in extreme unction with fewer

00:03:17.400 words, in confession with a shorter absolution, and it's actually something I believed. I took

00:03:23.220 it hook, line, and sinker in seminary. The problem is we have a lot of evidence from the early church

00:03:28.440 all the way through the infallible Council of Trent that it's just not true.

00:03:32.320 Okay, well, unpack that for us. Let's start with this quote from the Council of Trent. Everybody

00:03:38.500 knows that a certain part of the Mass they called the canon, you start these different prayers,

00:03:44.120 in the Novus Ordo anyway, when everybody kneels down, and then there's a very, very short one that

00:03:49.760 basically goes right to consecration right away, but then there's that one that you have the whole list

00:03:55.080 of saints and stuff like that in there. But read us, if you would, what's the quote from the Council

00:04:00.220 of Trent documents, and where is that reference? I know you know this, John Henry. I'm sure 95%

00:04:04.140 of your listeners know this, but just to define the term. So the Novus Ordo Mass was written by

00:04:08.860 Anibali Bonini, Archbishop Bonini in the 60s, under Pope Paul VI, and we call that the Novus Ordo Mass.

00:04:15.420 That is what most of your listeners will attend when they hear Mass in English, or French, or Spanish,

00:04:20.460 or Vietnamese, or whatever. And the Mass that I offer every day is the traditional Latin Mass.

00:04:25.180 Some people erroneously call that the Tridentine Mass. There's a little truth to that. It really

00:04:29.000 got crystallized at that time. I'm going to make the argument that goes back to the apostolic times.

00:04:34.240 But the Novus Ordo Mass, as you said at the beginning of this podcast, has four Eucharistic

00:04:39.640 prayers. That's the center of the Mass. That's where the words of the consecration is said. That's where

00:04:45.240 the Eucharist is confected. The bread becomes the body, and the wine becomes the blood.

00:04:50.460 And the priest gets to choose between four, and number two, and number three, and number four,

00:04:54.920 very short. Number two is especially short. That's unfortunately what most priests choose,

00:04:59.980 as far as the center of the Mass, the actual prayers that they choose. But Eucharistic Prayer

00:05:04.620 1 is also called the Roman Canon. The Roman Canon is the only option in the traditional Latin Mass.

00:05:11.700 And this is what the Council of Trent, which is infallible, says about this. This is Session 22,

00:05:16.360 chapter 4. And whereas it beseemeth that holy things be administered in a holy manner,

00:05:23.300 and of all holy things this sacrifice is the most holy, to the end that it might be worthily and

00:05:28.680 reverently offered and received, the Catholic Church instituted many years ago the Sacred Canon.

00:05:34.640 Now again, this is the 16th century, so it's talking about the Roman Canon. We're going to talk about how

00:05:39.220 it was not in Latin originally. It continues on in the Roman Canon. Again, Eucharistic Prayer 1,

00:05:44.220 so pure from every error that nothing is contained therein which does not in the highest degree

00:05:50.560 savor of a certain holiness and piety, and raise up unto God the minds of those that offer. Now,

00:05:57.680 here's the money line. For it is composed out of the very words of the Lord,

00:06:03.080 the traditions of the apostles, and the pious institutions also of holy pontiffs, end quote.

00:06:08.980 So that's Trent, Session 22, chapter 4. Now, what it's saying in the last 10 or 15 words there is

00:06:14.500 there was very tiny changes. Certain saints were added in the 2nd, 3rd, 4th century in Rome.

00:06:21.080 But when it says right there, it's the very words of the Lord. What it's saying is Eucharistic Prayer 1,

00:06:27.600 or the Roman Canon, which is the only basically skeleton to the traditional Latin Mass,

00:06:32.080 that is the words of our Lord given to the apostles.

00:06:36.080 It's sort of like, what is missing? So can you tell us inside the Roman Canon, 0.54

00:06:42.220 because you've said both, but what was sort of taken out? Like, what's missing? Because we know

00:06:46.400 the Roman Canon, or maybe you can remind people, what is unique to the Roman Canon that the other

00:06:51.400 ones don't have?

00:06:52.760 That's a good question. So the quote that I just read you in Trent, notice the four things,

00:06:57.220 the words of our Lord, traditions of the apostles, and the third is pious institutions of holy pontiffs.

00:07:02.080 So that last one, pious institutions, that's just the gloss. That's just a little bit of the

00:07:07.660 addition. But the body of the Roman Canon, the center of that is the very words of our Lord and

00:07:13.480 the traditions of the apostles. And so what was expected of priests from the early days was

00:07:19.280 that the Mass wasn't just like a 20-minute experience. I mean, maybe in the catacombs,

00:07:25.820 when there were Romans coming in and people, they had to sometimes pray it fast. But the main 0.95

00:07:31.740 difference between, say, Eucharistic prayer one and Eucharistic prayer two is simply the sheer

00:07:37.520 amount of words. In the Eucharistic prayer two, you go from the sanctus to the consecration in about

00:07:42.640 less than 30 seconds. That's not an exaggeration. It's something about the dew falling,

00:07:48.180 and then you go from the holy, holy, holy to the consecration, often after a boring 20-minute

00:07:54.100 sermon. Where in the Roman Canon, there are many prayers calling on the saints, naming the name of

00:08:01.380 the pontiff. And then it's beautiful because you're also praying. It uses three adjectives. You are

00:08:06.420 praying for all of those who are apostolic in the faith, all of those who are Catholic in the faith,

00:08:12.040 and all of those who are Orthodox in the faith. And you're linking the faith of all the prayers

00:08:17.600 you're going to say to the living and the saints. Now, there's a later section called the Memento for

00:08:22.280 the Dead, but who you're linking the faith to right there is the Pope and all of the apostolic,

00:08:32.400 Catholic, and Orthodox people alive right then. I don't think you have that in Eucharistic prayer

00:08:37.340 two or three or four. So it's a global event. You are praying for all the people on the planet,

00:08:44.000 but you're especially linking that infallible Catholic faith, all the articulated faith and

00:08:48.620 morals of the Catholic Church to those who are Catholic, Orthodox, and apostolic.

00:08:55.380 Why are they removing prayers that were taught by Christ, the apostles? Is it just to make it shorter?

00:09:01.820 And if they were going to make it shorter, why not cut out the homily, which is like the priest's words

00:09:08.480 that he makes up or that maybe he aspires to say, but whatever, rather than the words that our Lord

00:09:13.860 would... Isn't this also the most important part of the... This is the center of the center of

00:09:19.140 everything. This is a question. I don't know if you've looked into that, but...

00:09:23.980 No, I can answer it. Yeah, it's a great question. And what I'm about to say,

00:09:28.140 some people are going to say sounds spurious, but it's in the annals of Vatican II that the

00:09:32.900 new seven sacraments brought in Protestants to help write them. And really, as they wrote the 0.93

00:09:39.200 seven new sacraments, they wanted to make sure nothing was offensive to Protestants.

00:09:43.580 This isn't spurious information. This is in the annals of Vatican II that they decided to write

00:09:49.940 sacraments that were not offensive to Protestants. Now, as I said in the women's conference you and I

00:09:55.360 were at... I do think the new sacraments are valid by God's mercy, not by his justice.

00:10:00.840 Father Charles Murr, who's on your podcast, I believe, weekly, he goes very deep into the fact

00:10:06.340 that Freemasons had infiltrated the Catholic Church. Most of your listeners, if they're watching

00:10:10.720 Father Murr, they know his story with Cardinal Gagnon and everything. When the Fathers of Vatican II

00:10:15.880 admitted they brought in Protestants to have nothing in the new mass that's offensive to them,

00:10:19.580 the number one thing they had to take out was reference to sacrifice. See, they were okay a

00:10:25.940 little bit with a reference to Christ's presence in the Eucharist. The ultra-liberals pushed against

00:10:30.740 that and wanted only to have something of a president over a meal. They knew they couldn't

00:10:35.200 push that far, so they kept language of the true presence of Christ, but what they extricated

00:10:41.400 was all reference to sacrifice. The three parts of Old Testament and New Testament sacrifice

00:10:47.740 is the offertory, the slaying, and the consummation. And what you'll notice in a lot of the propers of

00:10:55.280 the Novus Ordo Mass, especially in the offertory, is the extrication or the removal of all aspects of

00:11:01.980 sacrifice. In other words, we know that the Holy Mass is the re-presentation of the very sacrifice of

00:11:10.360 Calvary, Jesus Christ on the cross. I always say to people, when you attend Mass, pretend like you're in a

00:11:16.560 time machine, going back to Calvary, you're arm in arm with the Blessed Virgin Mary, watching Jesus be

00:11:22.100 crucified. It is the exact same sacrifice. Now, there are good conservative Novus Ordo priests that

00:11:27.480 will definitely admit that, that it is sacrifice. But it's a big problem in my eyes that the people

00:11:33.820 that wrote the new propers and even the new Eucharist prayers took the word sacrifice out as much as they

00:11:41.520 could. You just said the seven sacraments changed. Now, this was news to me, and I'm no big guy on this

00:11:53.980 stuff, but there was this huge difference in terms of baptism that in the old rite, baptism included some

00:12:03.400 exorcisms, and then in the new rite, that's just gone. In other words, yes, it's still a valid baptism,

00:12:09.640 but you're missing lots of stuff. Now, you're saying it pertains to all seven sacraments. I don't

00:12:15.220 know what the differences are even in terms of marriage, but I just learned a couple years ago

00:12:21.140 about this one with baptism. I thought, whoa, it seems we're kind of ripped off. Because, I mean,

00:12:26.260 one of the things that struck me was like, yeah, there's exorcisms, but also exercise your tongue

00:12:30.500 to receive Jesus on your tongue. And that doesn't exist in the new rite of baptism. And I've had eight

00:12:36.820 kids baptized, let alone myself. There's a small optional exorcism that leads up to the

00:12:41.620 Novus Ordo baptism. It's a short, kind of weak one, and it's optional. But the old rite has several

00:12:46.740 very powerful exorcisms. In fact, there really isn't a sermon in the old rite baptism. There are,

00:12:52.520 like you mentioned, the exercise salt on the tongue to prepare the infant after baptism at one point to

00:12:58.380 receive Holy Communion for his speech to be salted for being a Christian in the world. But there's also

00:13:04.780 several exorcisms in the old rite. And what's amazing, I mentioned this at the women's conference

00:13:10.220 you and I were at, that my brother-in-law and sister, they're raising their kids Byzantine. And

00:13:14.220 so I've been to the baptism of all my nieces in the old rite Byzantine, because there's only one,

00:13:20.300 or I shouldn't say there's only one, but, you know, there was very minimal changes to the Eastern

00:13:24.700 rites at Vatican II. And so one of the things I noticed going to my nieces' baptisms in the Byzantine

00:13:30.420 rite, as I was watching them, I thought, this is interesting, because a lot of this, even though

00:13:35.660 it's in English for them, because they're not doing the old Slavonic, as I watched these baptisms,

00:13:40.440 there was all these exorcisms that remind me exactly of my old rite, not mine, but you know

00:13:45.320 what I mean, my old rite Roman Latin baptisms that I get to do. And so one of the things that

00:13:52.700 Father Ripperger mentioned on Taylor Marshall's show is anytime you have overlap between the Eastern

00:13:59.560 Catholic rites and the ancient Roman rites, you can be sure that there is a apostolic origin for

00:14:07.820 these things. So before the year 1000, all the Catholics in Greece, all the Catholics in Turkey,

00:14:13.560 now, if there was Eastern Orthodox listening to this, they would say, no, no, no, they were actually

00:14:17.680 Eastern Orthodox, but we claim all these saints, like St. Maximus the Confessor, St. John Chrysostom,

00:14:23.360 any of those saints, even the Eastern ones that existed before the schism, we would consider

00:14:28.460 capital C Catholic and little O Orthodox. Now, if you have any Eastern Orthodox listening, 0.52

00:14:33.320 they're going to say St. John Chrysostom was capital O Orthodox and little C Catholic. But the

00:14:38.320 point is, they all had valid sacraments. And then even after the schism in 1054, all the Orthodox, 0.71

00:14:45.900 that's Eastern Orthodox who schism from Rome, they continued with valid sacraments. But what

00:14:50.380 happened in the 15th century following the Council of Florence is a bunch of them did come back into union

00:14:55.640 with Rome, but got to keep their old rite sacraments, like the Greek Catholics now, 1.00

00:15:00.080 and the, say, Serbian Catholic Church. So they're now in union with Rome, but they got to keep their 0.99

00:15:06.080 ancient Eastern sacraments that can be traced back to at latest 6th century. But again, I would make 0.91

00:15:11.980 the argument it goes all the way back to the apostolic days.

00:15:14.780 So that's sort of what he's talking about when Father Ripperger says this. Is that right?

00:15:19.100 That's correct.

00:15:19.740 Okay. Let's roll the clip.

00:15:21.140 The Eastern rites, that's something you capture in your book. The Roman rite, the Eastern rites,

00:15:25.800 they all have the exact same apostolic pattern and template. Yes, there's maybe some different

00:15:32.160 prayers or some different emphasis. But when you put them side by side, if you put them in like an

00:15:37.400 Excel sheet and you put all the principal parts together, the mapping is identical. Why? Because

00:15:43.220 they all come from the apostles. Exactly. And it's that they come from the apostles first. Christ

00:15:51.160 himself, you know, set certain things in stone by divine tradition. Then he told them these are

00:15:56.560 certain things that were supposed to be in the tradition and they're in the mass. And then the

00:16:01.140 apostles themselves might have added certain things. But in point in fact, those things would have been

00:16:05.720 imperfectly congruity. And they all tended to do the same things. This is one of the reasons why you'll

00:16:10.760 And this is why it actually even says that if you see something that's common to all of the rites,

00:16:17.800 then it's de facto to be presumed it's of apostolic lineage.

00:16:21.660 So as you could see in that clip right there, what they're talking about is,

00:16:25.320 Taylor Marshall mentioned, if you had an Excel sheet and you lined up, say,

00:16:28.960 all of the aspects of the divine liturgy for Greek Catholics versus the traditional Latin mass,

00:16:35.980 you would see a bunch of things like sacrificial language in the offertory that you will not find

00:16:42.020 in the Novus Ordo. If you line up baptism, you're going to see the Greek Catholics as well as the

00:16:49.740 Greek Orthodox, but we're just comparing two Catholic rites here. If you look at the Greek Catholic

00:16:55.200 baptism versus the traditional Latin baptism that we traditionalists do, you're going to see a bunch 1.00

00:17:02.920 of exorcisms in both. Little problem, this is missing in the Novus Ordo. And so their point is,

00:17:09.300 this wasn't just an addition that happened by some Pope in the 15th century. What they're saying is,

00:17:15.140 this is actually what Christ gave to the apostles. And so it's a little piece of evidence against this

00:17:20.960 modern myth that everything was so simple in the early church and persecution was so severe that

00:17:27.240 all the sacraments had to be flattened into very kind of boring, the shortest words possible.

00:17:35.500 But it's just not true. I think, honestly, that the shortening of the sacraments

00:17:40.380 had to be justified through what Pope Pius X, XII, rather, warned against calling it antiquarianism.

00:17:48.000 We can get into that later. But the point is, the early church did have intricate and rich

00:17:54.040 sacraments for all seven of them, and had many words to them. Now, there were slow additions,

00:17:59.720 again, like the adding of certain saints into the Roman canon. And I should add, too,

00:18:04.000 the Roman canon was first in Aramaic, then it was in Greek, and then it was in Latin. So some people

00:18:08.740 say, oh, do you really think Jesus offered Mass in Latin? No. But he gave the words, at least in

00:18:15.140 skeleton form, in Aramaic, to the apostles in the Roman canon. And not only for the Eucharistic prayer,

00:18:24.820 also for baptism, for marriage, for ordination, and so on. Pope Pius XI said, men must look for

00:18:35.500 the peace of Christ in the kingdom of Christ. And he urged that the faithful give public honor to

00:18:41.620 Christ the King, so that individuals and states would submit once more to the rule of their

00:18:46.700 Savior. And that is why LifeSite News is raising up the image of Christ the King across the United

00:18:52.740 States. And you can help us reach millions more. Please pledge your support today for these billboards

00:18:59.860 at lifefunder.com slash Christ is King. I'm always amazed now because the missing parts then,

00:19:09.280 especially if you consider them in that light, become huge. Like these missing exorcisms from

00:19:14.580 baptism is the one that struck me. But there are also missing parts in ordination, which strikes me

00:19:22.080 as particularly scary. But then the culmination, of course, is in the Eucharistic prayer in the Roman

00:19:26.300 canon. Ordination only changed one word at Vatican to ut, it means so that the following might happen.

00:19:32.840 The priestly ordination, thankfully, only changed one word. The consecration of bishops changed a few

00:19:37.960 more. Strangely, it actually looked to the West, looked towards the East for the new consecration

00:19:43.700 of bishops. Again, I do think those are valid. But again, we have to ask, why did they shorten all

00:19:50.240 seven sacraments? And the typical answer you're going to get in every novice, every novice order

00:19:54.320 seminary is we want to be like the early church that was very simple. That's so interesting, because

00:19:59.080 I don't think the early church, even by biblical record, was very much about doing things hastily.

00:20:05.020 Didn't Paul preach so long that someone fell out of a window because he was tired and fell asleep and

00:20:10.920 died? He resurrected him, of course. But nonetheless, I don't think they were into very short things.

00:20:18.040 No, I'm glad you used the word hastily. I was talking to my friend before we went on, and I was

00:20:21.240 describing it. The reason they shortened is because they want everyone to get off to the Broncos game

00:20:25.960 as soon as possible. It has nothing to do with trying to be like the early church. I mean, does the

00:20:31.060 novice order world want people to all die martyrs as soon as possible, like the early church? I mean, 0.93

00:20:36.640 I think you hit it right on the head when you said it was to make everything hasty. It was to shorten

00:20:42.220 it because we don't have enough love for God to stick around for more than an hour.

00:20:46.720 I think a lot of people are going to have this question. At least I do. What do we do? We've had

00:20:51.260 all our sacraments already. Obviously, we have the Holy Sacrifice to the Mass. And for those of us who can get to

00:20:56.240 the Latin Mass, it's beautiful. But you can encourage a priest to say the first Eucharistic

00:21:03.740 prayer. But what about us who had these baptisms that are missing blessings, had our marriages?

00:21:10.680 Did the marriage right change in how much? Do you know?

00:21:13.220 No, and I do think all these are valid, but I'll give you an example. There's a lot of priests that

00:21:18.020 offer the Novus Ordo Mass that prefer the old right for making holy water. Now, you have to say,

00:21:24.460 why did they do that? Well, clearly, if they're doing the new Mass, they don't doubt that the new

00:21:29.580 right of holy water is making holy water, but they want it more powerful, right? And also,

00:21:35.340 many Novus Ordo exorcists, I mean, I should say exorcists who do the Novus Ordo as their daily Mass.

00:21:40.940 I'm clearly not talking about Father Ripperger here because his daily Mass is the traditional

00:21:43.900 mass. I know of exorcists whose daily Mass is the Novus Ordo, and they do the old right exorcism. 0.65

00:21:50.640 They won't do the post-Vatican II exorcism very much. And so, do they think the post-Vatican II

00:21:56.560 exorcism is invalid? No, but they know it's more powerful, right? So, if you have any set of

00:22:02.620 a contest listening, they will say, oh, no, all the new seven sacraments are invalid. I'm open to

00:22:08.380 their view, but I don't think it's true. But there are people somewhere between set of a contest and me

00:22:14.540 who will say, all the new seven sacraments are valid, but they're less powerful. Actually,

00:22:20.120 I guess that is my view. They are valid, but less powerful. And that makes sense. I mean,

00:22:24.660 the holy sacrifice and the Mass, this Novus Ordo has sustained countless Catholics in terms of their

00:22:31.060 faith and made, you know, they receive our Lord there and are in adoration before him. But with regard

00:22:40.480 to the different sacraments offering, even extra blessings, however you want to call it, more

00:22:47.300 powerful is a way to determine, that's so unfair in that most of us had no clue. We all grew up

00:22:57.980 without, I mean, anybody my age and younger. I was born in 1970. It's a done deal by that point.

00:23:05.100 Um, and my family, thanks to my dad, I'd heard of a Latin Mass. And, and when I think it was 84 or

00:23:12.480 something, there was some allowance for that's where the Tridentine Mass came in. We had, you know,

00:23:17.080 one priest going up and down in Toronto and my dad would take me every once in a while. We'd go to

00:23:21.640 some church here and there, but that was it. There was, there was never anything normal. And only since,

00:23:27.680 uh, Samorum Pontificum did even the cities get it. In the States, it's funny because I think a lot of

00:23:32.720 people in the States assume, oh, you have this great access to Latin Mass. It's so small. It's

00:23:39.080 so ridiculously small. When, when we were at this conference, something hit me. There are three

00:23:45.900 fraternity priests at this one parish, at this one church where they have Our Lady of Mount Carmel

00:23:52.000 there, uh, in Littleton, Colorado. I said to the people there, it's gorgeous that you walk in it.

00:23:57.640 It's the most, one of those stunning churches. They did something with the colors that is just

00:24:01.440 unbelievable. Um, but I said, I asked, uh, the, the pastor there, I said, father, um, how many, um,

00:24:10.540 fraternity priests are there in the world? He said, oh, about 300. I was like, yeah. Okay. So

00:24:15.480 you've got 1% of the whole wide world's, uh, uh, priests right here in this little parish in,

00:24:22.000 in Littleton, Colorado. And that's why it's funny because a lot of people think, and I think America,

00:24:27.480 which I think relative to the world, maybe only France might have, but there's more Latin masses 0.99

00:24:34.840 available probably there than anywhere else. And so it's funny to think of how blessed some parts are

00:24:41.980 where they have access to traditional sacraments, especially since Traditiones Custodis, which,

00:24:47.500 which booted it from all normal parishes. So in all the dioceses, now the only ones permitted

00:24:54.100 officially to have traditional sacraments are the fraternity and the Institute. Uh, those are the

00:25:01.180 two biggest anyway. And then the SSPX has them too. The SSPX of course is thought by some to be

00:25:06.540 in schism, which Bishop Schneider, who was the official Vatican visitator to them told one of

00:25:12.020 them anyway, said they're not, but nonetheless, there's this big debate. So a lot of people are

00:25:16.200 hesitant to go to the SSPX, but it's stunning how infrequent this is. I'm not saying I'm, I attend a

00:25:24.020 regular daily, uh, Nova Sordo parish. It is a beautiful parish with the altar rail and, and, uh,

00:25:29.480 and communion encouraged on the tongue and with the patent and everything else. But nonetheless,

00:25:34.580 people call that a unicorn mass or whatever. That's not as rare because access to the traditional

00:25:41.340 Latin mass is very, very rare indeed. So what can people do? I've heard of something. I don't know 0.99

00:25:46.960 what it is. It's like the extra missing blessings. Is there such a thing that you can appeal to a

00:25:52.320 traditional priest for? Yeah. The supplied rights. And I like the points you made because

00:25:56.960 what this, what this is showing us is we're talking about things being more powerful, not just

00:26:03.640 delicate little dainty differences that we traditionalists like, right? We're talking about,

00:26:10.520 um, substantial difference. And this is why there's such a huge return to tradition among anybody that's

00:26:15.840 studying this isn't because they like Latin more than English, or they like Latin more than French.

00:26:21.780 It's because they're looking at this and they're saying they want, for example, exorcisms over

00:26:27.560 their babies. Um, this is a story father Ripperger tells. I'm going to tell, I think I'm going to get

00:26:32.700 a couple of details wrong, but the basics is this, that I've heard him say on a podcast before

00:26:36.020 in the early 1930s, they had a case of like 10 or 12 possessed teenagers from Northern Italy.

00:26:44.680 And the Vatican sent priest delegates to Northern Italy to figure out what was going on.

00:26:48.960 Now, keep in mind, this is before Vatican II, when they only had the old right with all the 0.99

00:26:53.700 exorcisms leading up to the baptism. And the baptism is name, but again, before that,

00:27:01.860 there's these exorcisms. Well, they found that these 10 or 15 or 20 different possessed teenagers

00:27:08.620 had all come from the same parish. Well, lo and behold, early 1920s, they found they were all baptized

00:27:15.080 by the same pastor. Lo and behold, it's not that he was a proto-modernist. It's just that he was lazy

00:27:22.320 and he didn't do the exorcisms before baptism. We have a group of teenagers possessed, according to

00:27:29.780 his story, because their priest did baptize them, but didn't do the exorcisms. Now, could this maybe

00:27:35.880 explain why Catholics today have the exact same rate of entrance into psych units, transgender

00:27:42.080 surgeries, everything else? Could that explain why our kids are struggling so much these days?

00:27:48.100 I don't know. Father Ripperger's scene is less extreme than me, and he tells that story.

00:27:52.640 So it seems pretty important to me that we have those exorcisms in the baptism. Again,

00:27:57.820 they're valid baptisms, but I'm pretty sure the church was wise if East and West from apostolic 0.98

00:28:04.040 days did that to children before baptism.

00:28:06.820 I want to talk about the supplied right, because I think for a lot of people, that's going to come

00:28:10.820 as a shocker. And there is a way to sort of, can I say, remedy that?

00:28:17.060 This existed before Vatican II. So imagine in the 19th century, say, a mom had a baby at home,

00:28:24.120 baby was in distress, and the maid, maybe they call it a nurse by modern translations, maid or nurse

00:28:29.080 comes in, baby's in distress, and the maid baptizes the baby. Okay, smart Catholic girl, 0.99

00:28:36.740 and then the baby lives. Well, what happens two days later is they go to the church for the

00:28:41.400 churching of the mother, and the priest gets the news from the maid or the mother or the dad,

00:28:46.000 oh yeah, baby was baptized. But of course, you know, the 18-year-old maid or nurse didn't do all

00:28:52.980 the exorcisms. So what they do is the exorcisms in a retroactive manner upon that baby. And this

00:28:59.060 has been around for hundreds of years. What happened is in the traditional world following

00:29:03.740 Vatican II, as more and more Catholics who've had their babies baptized in the new right, which again, 0.89

00:29:09.100 I believe is a valid baptism, but was missing some of these exorcisms. And real quick, some people

00:29:12.780 say, well, baptism is more powerful than exorcism, doesn't it cover it? That's why I point to 0.55

00:29:17.220 Father Ripperger's story that, no, there's something there that is important. We won't

00:29:23.260 go into the difference between ex opere operata and operantis, but there's some aspects of operantis

00:29:28.120 in that. Anyway, post-Vatican II, more and more families are coming, especially these days, the last 0.86

00:29:33.340 10 years, more and more families who've had their babies baptized in the new right of baptism

00:29:37.360 coming to tradition, and they're saying, how can we get these exorcisms retroactively? And a lot of

00:29:44.040 priests are saying, well, it's a little weird to do it for someone who was baptized, you know, a year

00:29:50.940 ago or two years ago or 30 years ago. But if the church has allowed this to be done in a retroactive

00:29:58.280 manner, what's to prevent it from being done now? Now, where there's debate in the traditional world

00:30:03.720 is how long after. So like Dr. Kwasnefsky and Father Ripperger would say, it's only for infants. You

00:30:10.220 can only do that for infants. I take a little more liberal view, I should generous view, maybe not

00:30:15.120 liberal view, and I'm happy to do it for adults. And I admit Dr. K and Father Ripperger know a thousand

00:30:20.800 more things about this than I do, but I kind of take the Epike approach. Epike is a virtue of St.

00:30:26.340 Thomas Aquinas that in tough days in the church, you put common sense ahead of law. So I'm happy to do

00:30:32.300 the supplied rites for adults. But many traditional priests who disagree with me on that are still

00:30:40.280 willing to do the supplied rites, the retroactive exorcisms for infants who had, for example, just

00:30:46.060 received a Novus Ordo baptism. Kind of controversial stuff, but it's just the answer to your question on

00:30:50.180 as there's a lot of people asking these questions.

00:30:53.560 Indeed. Because as more and more people find out about tradition, even though they believe they're

00:30:59.820 valid, but realize, oh, we're missing something. And particularly when they hear stuff like you

00:31:04.740 mentioned from Father Ripperger and this story of the account of the priest who just didn't do it.

00:31:11.820 We are at this stage. Now, I've heard another explanation, and basically it was ecclesia suplet.

00:31:20.100 Why don't you explain that a little bit? What's the theory there? And it's basically people who

00:31:26.600 believe, or priests or bishops or whatever, I was told by both, but who basically said,

00:31:32.080 it doesn't really matter the church supplies. But explain that if you would.

00:31:36.040 Yeah, the ecclesia suplet means the church supplies for any defects in the minister or the person

00:31:41.160 receiving the sacraments. And that's an ancient aspect of ecclesiology and sacramental theology that's

00:31:47.960 certainly very valid, but it has its limits. And I'll give you an example of one of those.

00:31:51.840 Five years ago, there was a priest, I believe, from Minnesota, and they found that he, as a baby,

00:31:59.480 20 or 30 years prior, had been baptized by the priest. And the priest used the words,

00:32:03.500 we baptize you in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit.

00:32:07.180 Well, amazingly, not only did his diocese in Minnesota, but even the liberal Vatican admitted

00:32:13.220 that, using we, was an invalid baptism, meaning all of his orders were invalid.

00:32:19.000 And even Catholic news agency covered this. This was a mainstream article that said, hey,

00:32:25.500 sorry about all the confessions this guy heard. He wasn't giving absolution. Why? Because he wasn't

00:32:30.360 a priest. Why? Because he wasn't a Christian. He'd never been baptized the right way. And so what's 0.95

00:32:36.020 fascinating to me about that story is neither the diocese nor the current Vatican looked at that

00:32:42.500 and said ecclesia suplet. No, they both actually, in this case, gave the correct answer to say,

00:32:47.840 the church supplies for certain defects, but not defects of matter and form in that sense.

00:32:56.380 And so ecclesia suplet is a good thing, and it's good to look to that, but it doesn't supply

00:33:01.960 for major defects of matter and form. And that example that I give of that priest,

00:33:06.680 they had to baptize him, confirm him, and then ordain him. I don't know what they did about all the

00:33:10.520 people in his rearview mirror whose confessions. Now, all the baptisms he did were actually valid. 0.73

00:33:15.040 Why? Because a lay person, even an unbaptized person can do baptisms. So the people he baptized

00:33:21.220 are still baptized because he was a layman, right? But all the Eucharist he confected, not valid.

00:33:28.080 And again, this is Catholic news agency supports me on this. This isn't a wacko theory.

00:33:31.940 All the confessions he heard. Now, you might be able to say the confessions he heard, maybe there's

00:33:38.580 ecclesia suplet that God forgave those people because they tried to get to confession and things

00:33:44.400 like that. But that's spurious. All we can do is we can hope, but we don't have proof that's the case.

00:33:50.080 Unbelievable. Unbelievable. Father, final thoughts for us.

00:33:53.580 Well, let's see, final thoughts. I wrote a couple things down.

00:33:55.980 Um, uh, one of the things is, you know, this, this archeologism or antiquarianism,

00:34:03.540 this is this notion that Pius XII was worried about. And antiquarianism was something he preached

00:34:11.020 again. Antiquarianism is the notion that there would be certain Catholic sacramental theologians

00:34:16.680 that would only look at the first, second and third century, and then ignore what the Holy Spirit did

00:34:21.560 in say the fifth century in liturgy or the eighth century in liturgy or the 15th century in liturgy.

00:34:27.060 And so he wanted to say, no, no, no, the Holy Spirit is working, uh, in the first millennium of

00:34:33.000 liturgy and the second millennium in these small additions. But if I could go back in time, one thing

00:34:37.840 I'd say to Pius XII is maybe you don't have as much to worry about as you think, because most of what

00:34:43.680 we keep finding in first and second century, uh, liturgy and sacraments is actually supporting

00:34:49.900 all of the Tridentine sacraments. It turns out there's very little change. There's little

00:34:53.980 material changes, but substantially these are all the same as the Tridentine sacraments. And I would

00:34:58.880 even go a step further and say all the ancient Eastern rites are suspiciously similar to the

00:35:05.820 Roman rite ones. And so Pope Benedict even mentioned this. I don't like, he uses a little bit modernist

00:35:12.580 language in saying the president over the meal, but this is a quote from Pope Benedict. He says,

00:35:16.980 in no meal of the early Christian era, did the president of the banqueting assembly ever face

00:35:22.920 the other participants? What does that show us? That shows us that the notion of the priest facing

00:35:28.720 the people is purely Protestant. It's not an early church thing. It's purely Protestant to have the

00:35:34.560 priest face you. And Pope Benedict, who did not do the traditional Latin mass, by the way, he only did

00:35:39.300 the Novus Ordo, at least, uh, in his episcopacy and in his, and in his papacy, even he right there is

00:35:46.240 admitting that the early church, whether East or West, the priest offered the holy sacrifice of the mass

00:35:52.180 with his back to the people. So I'm not afraid of the early centuries. I'm saying we should go back to

00:35:57.660 them. And what we're going to do, if we do that, we're going to start seeing all of the so-called

00:36:02.060 Tridentine sacraments are vindicated.

00:36:04.600 Absolutely beautiful. Father, where can people find out and read more from you?

00:36:08.640 I run a little blog called Padre Peregrino, and that's also the name of my YouTube channel. It's

00:36:14.020 also on like Spotify and Rumble and stuff. So Padre Peregrino means father pilgrim. Sounds kind

00:36:18.960 of dorky in English, but a little cooler in Spanish. PadrePeregrino.org and also same at YouTube

00:36:24.980 and stuff. That's where you can find the writings. The podcast is a little bit more scripture and

00:36:30.060 catechesis, a little less controversial. The blog tackles these, these things of what really changed in

00:36:35.660 the church. It's a little bit more controversial, but that's the main thing I do is teaching mental

00:36:39.840 prayer on my scripture series and patristic scripture. We look at the Roman Catechism of

00:36:45.660 Trent in another series, and then the blog usually tackles these spicier topics. 0.93

00:36:51.100 Awesome. Father, if you wouldn't mind, bless us before you leave.

00:36:55.480 Yeah, thanks. Thanks so much for having me, Mr. Weston. I really appreciate it.

00:36:58.360 Amazing. Thank you.

00:36:59.460 Okay. Dominus phobiscum et cum spirituturo.

00:37:02.760 Amen. Amen. Amen. God bless you, Father.

00:37:15.380 God bless you. Thanks so much for having me.

00:37:16.840 And God bless all of you. I'll see you next time.

The John-Henry Westen Show - September 17, 2024

The Surprising Truth： Jesus Taught the Apostles the Roman Canon – Eucharistic Prayer #1!

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