The Surprising Truth： Jesus Taught the Apostles the Roman Canon – Eucharistic Prayer #1!
Episode Stats
Words per Minute
180.06215
Summary
In this episode of the John Hedden Weston Show, Father David Nix, a diocesan hermit, talks about why only one of the seven sacraments is actually given to the apostles, and why it's called the Novus Ordo.
Transcript
00:00:00.000
The notion of the priest facing the people is purely Protestant.
00:00:03.920
It's not an early church thing. It's purely Protestant to have the priest face you.
00:00:15.120
What if I told you that, you know those Eucharistic prayers at every Mass, there's like
00:00:21.140
four, there's some that are really short, there's that really long one, and there's one that they
00:00:25.580
do at Christmas and so on. But what if I told you that only one of those was actually given by Jesus
00:00:33.400
to the apostles? That's going to sound really strange, right? But it's actually written in
00:00:41.260
the Council of Trent that Jesus gave it over to the apostles. I was stunned when I heard that.
00:00:48.420
My next guest is going to talk to us all about that. His name is Father David Nix. Father Nix
00:00:54.000
is a diocesan hermit. He has been a priest for 14 years. He spent the first seven years
00:00:59.720
saying the Novus Ordo Mass, and the last seven, he's been saying only the traditional Latin Mass.
00:01:06.400
He's got really good reason for that. He was also a paramedic before, and so stay tuned for
00:01:12.100
this episode of the John Hedden Weston Show. This October 17th and 18th, we are going to be
00:01:19.060
running Rome Life Forum in Exile. We're doing that in Kansas City, Missouri. This fine bishop,
00:01:25.280
Bishop Joseph Strickland, sort of in exile, is going to be joining us there, as well as Dr. Janet Smith,
00:01:30.760
as well as prophecy expert Xavier Aral, and many more, including a special guest. Hope to see you
00:01:38.780
there. Hope to see you there. God bless you. Romelifeforum.com. Sign up now.
00:01:45.940
Father David Nix, so good to be with you. Good to see you again, Mr. Weston. Thanks for having me.
00:01:49.940
Let's begin, as you always do, with the sign of the cross. If you wouldn't mind, Father,
00:01:52.860
leading us, please. In no many patris, et fidi, et spiritu santi. Amen.
00:01:58.000
Amen. Amen. So, Father, this was stunning. We were both at a traditional women's conference
00:02:04.400
near Denver in Colorado, and your talk, you said this, and I was like, what? The first
00:02:12.700
Eucharistic prayer, also known as the Roman Canon, was given by Christ the Apostles and
00:02:17.980
the Council of Trent says, so tell us about that. Yeah, it's kind of a showstopper, isn't it? As
00:02:21.940
you mentioned, I did the Novus Ordo for seven years, and now I do the Latin Mass, and maybe I'll
00:02:26.600
give the same disclaimer I did at the women's conference, that I'm not judging anybody that
00:02:30.160
goes to the Novus Ordo in this, but I think we need to look at the historical reasons, because
00:02:34.440
there's a lot of modern myths out there about the development of liturgy, and so I think we
00:02:39.200
agreed off the air this would be just a good time to look at the history of it. So this isn't a moral
00:02:43.200
appraisal of those who go to the New Sacraments, but it's kind of a straightening out of the
00:02:48.760
understanding of history, and what did Christ actually give to the Apostles as far as the
00:02:54.680
sacraments? Because there's a myth that's taught in a lot of the seminaries these days that
00:02:59.440
the new seven sacraments are actually older than the medieval sacraments, and that kind
00:03:05.220
of makes sense, because what they'll say is the early church was very simple, and therefore
00:03:10.580
we've returned to the early church in the simplicity of the Novus Ordo, in extreme unction with fewer
00:03:17.400
words, in confession with a shorter absolution, and it's actually something I believed. I took
00:03:23.220
it hook, line, and sinker in seminary. The problem is we have a lot of evidence from the early church
00:03:28.440
all the way through the infallible Council of Trent that it's just not true.
00:03:32.320
Okay, well, unpack that for us. Let's start with this quote from the Council of Trent. Everybody
00:03:38.500
knows that a certain part of the Mass they called the canon, you start these different prayers,
00:03:44.120
in the Novus Ordo anyway, when everybody kneels down, and then there's a very, very short one that
00:03:49.760
basically goes right to consecration right away, but then there's that one that you have the whole list
00:03:55.080
of saints and stuff like that in there. But read us, if you would, what's the quote from the Council
00:04:00.220
of Trent documents, and where is that reference? I know you know this, John Henry. I'm sure 95%
00:04:04.140
of your listeners know this, but just to define the term. So the Novus Ordo Mass was written by
00:04:08.860
Anibali Bonini, Archbishop Bonini in the 60s, under Pope Paul VI, and we call that the Novus Ordo Mass.
00:04:15.420
That is what most of your listeners will attend when they hear Mass in English, or French, or Spanish,
00:04:20.460
or Vietnamese, or whatever. And the Mass that I offer every day is the traditional Latin Mass.
00:04:25.180
Some people erroneously call that the Tridentine Mass. There's a little truth to that. It really
00:04:29.000
got crystallized at that time. I'm going to make the argument that goes back to the apostolic times.
00:04:34.240
But the Novus Ordo Mass, as you said at the beginning of this podcast, has four Eucharistic
00:04:39.640
prayers. That's the center of the Mass. That's where the words of the consecration is said. That's where
00:04:45.240
the Eucharist is confected. The bread becomes the body, and the wine becomes the blood.
00:04:50.460
And the priest gets to choose between four, and number two, and number three, and number four,
00:04:54.920
very short. Number two is especially short. That's unfortunately what most priests choose,
00:04:59.980
as far as the center of the Mass, the actual prayers that they choose. But Eucharistic Prayer
00:05:04.620
1 is also called the Roman Canon. The Roman Canon is the only option in the traditional Latin Mass.
00:05:11.700
And this is what the Council of Trent, which is infallible, says about this. This is Session 22,
00:05:16.360
chapter 4. And whereas it beseemeth that holy things be administered in a holy manner,
00:05:23.300
and of all holy things this sacrifice is the most holy, to the end that it might be worthily and
00:05:28.680
reverently offered and received, the Catholic Church instituted many years ago the Sacred Canon.
00:05:34.640
Now again, this is the 16th century, so it's talking about the Roman Canon. We're going to talk about how
00:05:39.220
it was not in Latin originally. It continues on in the Roman Canon. Again, Eucharistic Prayer 1,
00:05:44.220
so pure from every error that nothing is contained therein which does not in the highest degree
00:05:50.560
savor of a certain holiness and piety, and raise up unto God the minds of those that offer. Now,
00:05:57.680
here's the money line. For it is composed out of the very words of the Lord,
00:06:03.080
the traditions of the apostles, and the pious institutions also of holy pontiffs, end quote.
00:06:08.980
So that's Trent, Session 22, chapter 4. Now, what it's saying in the last 10 or 15 words there is
00:06:14.500
there was very tiny changes. Certain saints were added in the 2nd, 3rd, 4th century in Rome.
00:06:21.080
But when it says right there, it's the very words of the Lord. What it's saying is Eucharistic Prayer 1,
00:06:27.600
or the Roman Canon, which is the only basically skeleton to the traditional Latin Mass,
00:06:32.080
that is the words of our Lord given to the apostles.
00:06:36.080
It's sort of like, what is missing? So can you tell us inside the Roman Canon,
00:06:42.220
because you've said both, but what was sort of taken out? Like, what's missing? Because we know
00:06:46.400
the Roman Canon, or maybe you can remind people, what is unique to the Roman Canon that the other
00:06:52.760
That's a good question. So the quote that I just read you in Trent, notice the four things,
00:06:57.220
the words of our Lord, traditions of the apostles, and the third is pious institutions of holy pontiffs.
00:07:02.080
So that last one, pious institutions, that's just the gloss. That's just a little bit of the
00:07:07.660
addition. But the body of the Roman Canon, the center of that is the very words of our Lord and
00:07:13.480
the traditions of the apostles. And so what was expected of priests from the early days was
00:07:19.280
that the Mass wasn't just like a 20-minute experience. I mean, maybe in the catacombs,
00:07:25.820
when there were Romans coming in and people, they had to sometimes pray it fast. But the main
00:07:31.740
difference between, say, Eucharistic prayer one and Eucharistic prayer two is simply the sheer
00:07:37.520
amount of words. In the Eucharistic prayer two, you go from the sanctus to the consecration in about
00:07:42.640
less than 30 seconds. That's not an exaggeration. It's something about the dew falling,
00:07:48.180
and then you go from the holy, holy, holy to the consecration, often after a boring 20-minute
00:07:54.100
sermon. Where in the Roman Canon, there are many prayers calling on the saints, naming the name of
00:08:01.380
the pontiff. And then it's beautiful because you're also praying. It uses three adjectives. You are
00:08:06.420
praying for all of those who are apostolic in the faith, all of those who are Catholic in the faith,
00:08:12.040
and all of those who are Orthodox in the faith. And you're linking the faith of all the prayers
00:08:17.600
you're going to say to the living and the saints. Now, there's a later section called the Memento for
00:08:22.280
the Dead, but who you're linking the faith to right there is the Pope and all of the apostolic,
00:08:32.400
Catholic, and Orthodox people alive right then. I don't think you have that in Eucharistic prayer
00:08:37.340
two or three or four. So it's a global event. You are praying for all the people on the planet,
00:08:44.000
but you're especially linking that infallible Catholic faith, all the articulated faith and
00:08:48.620
morals of the Catholic Church to those who are Catholic, Orthodox, and apostolic.
00:08:55.380
Why are they removing prayers that were taught by Christ, the apostles? Is it just to make it shorter?
00:09:01.820
And if they were going to make it shorter, why not cut out the homily, which is like the priest's words
00:09:08.480
that he makes up or that maybe he aspires to say, but whatever, rather than the words that our Lord
00:09:13.860
would... Isn't this also the most important part of the... This is the center of the center of
00:09:19.140
everything. This is a question. I don't know if you've looked into that, but...
00:09:23.980
No, I can answer it. Yeah, it's a great question. And what I'm about to say,
00:09:28.140
some people are going to say sounds spurious, but it's in the annals of Vatican II that the
00:09:32.900
new seven sacraments brought in Protestants to help write them. And really, as they wrote the
00:09:39.200
seven new sacraments, they wanted to make sure nothing was offensive to Protestants.
00:09:43.580
This isn't spurious information. This is in the annals of Vatican II that they decided to write
00:09:49.940
sacraments that were not offensive to Protestants. Now, as I said in the women's conference you and I
00:09:55.360
were at... I do think the new sacraments are valid by God's mercy, not by his justice.
00:10:00.840
Father Charles Murr, who's on your podcast, I believe, weekly, he goes very deep into the fact
00:10:06.340
that Freemasons had infiltrated the Catholic Church. Most of your listeners, if they're watching
00:10:10.720
Father Murr, they know his story with Cardinal Gagnon and everything. When the Fathers of Vatican II
00:10:15.880
admitted they brought in Protestants to have nothing in the new mass that's offensive to them,
00:10:19.580
the number one thing they had to take out was reference to sacrifice. See, they were okay a
00:10:25.940
little bit with a reference to Christ's presence in the Eucharist. The ultra-liberals pushed against
00:10:30.740
that and wanted only to have something of a president over a meal. They knew they couldn't
00:10:35.200
push that far, so they kept language of the true presence of Christ, but what they extricated
00:10:41.400
was all reference to sacrifice. The three parts of Old Testament and New Testament sacrifice
00:10:47.740
is the offertory, the slaying, and the consummation. And what you'll notice in a lot of the propers of
00:10:55.280
the Novus Ordo Mass, especially in the offertory, is the extrication or the removal of all aspects of
00:11:01.980
sacrifice. In other words, we know that the Holy Mass is the re-presentation of the very sacrifice of
00:11:10.360
Calvary, Jesus Christ on the cross. I always say to people, when you attend Mass, pretend like you're in a
00:11:16.560
time machine, going back to Calvary, you're arm in arm with the Blessed Virgin Mary, watching Jesus be
00:11:22.100
crucified. It is the exact same sacrifice. Now, there are good conservative Novus Ordo priests that
00:11:27.480
will definitely admit that, that it is sacrifice. But it's a big problem in my eyes that the people
00:11:33.820
that wrote the new propers and even the new Eucharist prayers took the word sacrifice out as much as they
00:11:41.520
could. You just said the seven sacraments changed. Now, this was news to me, and I'm no big guy on this
00:11:53.980
stuff, but there was this huge difference in terms of baptism that in the old rite, baptism included some
00:12:03.400
exorcisms, and then in the new rite, that's just gone. In other words, yes, it's still a valid baptism,
00:12:09.640
but you're missing lots of stuff. Now, you're saying it pertains to all seven sacraments. I don't
00:12:15.220
know what the differences are even in terms of marriage, but I just learned a couple years ago
00:12:21.140
about this one with baptism. I thought, whoa, it seems we're kind of ripped off. Because, I mean,
00:12:26.260
one of the things that struck me was like, yeah, there's exorcisms, but also exercise your tongue
00:12:30.500
to receive Jesus on your tongue. And that doesn't exist in the new rite of baptism. And I've had eight
00:12:36.820
kids baptized, let alone myself. There's a small optional exorcism that leads up to the
00:12:41.620
Novus Ordo baptism. It's a short, kind of weak one, and it's optional. But the old rite has several
00:12:46.740
very powerful exorcisms. In fact, there really isn't a sermon in the old rite baptism. There are,
00:12:52.520
like you mentioned, the exercise salt on the tongue to prepare the infant after baptism at one point to
00:12:58.380
receive Holy Communion for his speech to be salted for being a Christian in the world. But there's also
00:13:04.780
several exorcisms in the old rite. And what's amazing, I mentioned this at the women's conference
00:13:10.220
you and I were at, that my brother-in-law and sister, they're raising their kids Byzantine. And
00:13:14.220
so I've been to the baptism of all my nieces in the old rite Byzantine, because there's only one,
00:13:20.300
or I shouldn't say there's only one, but, you know, there was very minimal changes to the Eastern
00:13:24.700
rites at Vatican II. And so one of the things I noticed going to my nieces' baptisms in the Byzantine
00:13:30.420
rite, as I was watching them, I thought, this is interesting, because a lot of this, even though
00:13:35.660
it's in English for them, because they're not doing the old Slavonic, as I watched these baptisms,
00:13:40.440
there was all these exorcisms that remind me exactly of my old rite, not mine, but you know
00:13:45.320
what I mean, my old rite Roman Latin baptisms that I get to do. And so one of the things that
00:13:52.700
Father Ripperger mentioned on Taylor Marshall's show is anytime you have overlap between the Eastern
00:13:59.560
Catholic rites and the ancient Roman rites, you can be sure that there is a apostolic origin for
00:14:07.820
these things. So before the year 1000, all the Catholics in Greece, all the Catholics in Turkey,
00:14:13.560
now, if there was Eastern Orthodox listening to this, they would say, no, no, no, they were actually
00:14:17.680
Eastern Orthodox, but we claim all these saints, like St. Maximus the Confessor, St. John Chrysostom,
00:14:23.360
any of those saints, even the Eastern ones that existed before the schism, we would consider
00:14:28.460
capital C Catholic and little O Orthodox. Now, if you have any Eastern Orthodox listening,
00:14:33.320
they're going to say St. John Chrysostom was capital O Orthodox and little C Catholic. But the
00:14:38.320
point is, they all had valid sacraments. And then even after the schism in 1054, all the Orthodox,
00:14:45.900
that's Eastern Orthodox who schism from Rome, they continued with valid sacraments. But what
00:14:50.380
happened in the 15th century following the Council of Florence is a bunch of them did come back into union
00:14:55.640
with Rome, but got to keep their old rite sacraments, like the Greek Catholics now,
00:15:00.080
and the, say, Serbian Catholic Church. So they're now in union with Rome, but they got to keep their
00:15:06.080
ancient Eastern sacraments that can be traced back to at latest 6th century. But again, I would make
00:15:11.980
the argument it goes all the way back to the apostolic days.
00:15:14.780
So that's sort of what he's talking about when Father Ripperger says this. Is that right?
00:15:21.140
The Eastern rites, that's something you capture in your book. The Roman rite, the Eastern rites,
00:15:25.800
they all have the exact same apostolic pattern and template. Yes, there's maybe some different
00:15:32.160
prayers or some different emphasis. But when you put them side by side, if you put them in like an
00:15:37.400
Excel sheet and you put all the principal parts together, the mapping is identical. Why? Because
00:15:43.220
they all come from the apostles. Exactly. And it's that they come from the apostles first. Christ
00:15:51.160
himself, you know, set certain things in stone by divine tradition. Then he told them these are
00:15:56.560
certain things that were supposed to be in the tradition and they're in the mass. And then the
00:16:01.140
apostles themselves might have added certain things. But in point in fact, those things would have been
00:16:05.720
imperfectly congruity. And they all tended to do the same things. This is one of the reasons why you'll
00:16:10.760
And this is why it actually even says that if you see something that's common to all of the rites,
00:16:17.800
then it's de facto to be presumed it's of apostolic lineage.
00:16:21.660
So as you could see in that clip right there, what they're talking about is,
00:16:25.320
Taylor Marshall mentioned, if you had an Excel sheet and you lined up, say,
00:16:28.960
all of the aspects of the divine liturgy for Greek Catholics versus the traditional Latin mass,
00:16:35.980
you would see a bunch of things like sacrificial language in the offertory that you will not find
00:16:42.020
in the Novus Ordo. If you line up baptism, you're going to see the Greek Catholics as well as the
00:16:49.740
Greek Orthodox, but we're just comparing two Catholic rites here. If you look at the Greek Catholic
00:16:55.200
baptism versus the traditional Latin baptism that we traditionalists do, you're going to see a bunch
00:17:02.920
of exorcisms in both. Little problem, this is missing in the Novus Ordo. And so their point is,
00:17:09.300
this wasn't just an addition that happened by some Pope in the 15th century. What they're saying is,
00:17:15.140
this is actually what Christ gave to the apostles. And so it's a little piece of evidence against this
00:17:20.960
modern myth that everything was so simple in the early church and persecution was so severe that
00:17:27.240
all the sacraments had to be flattened into very kind of boring, the shortest words possible.
00:17:35.500
But it's just not true. I think, honestly, that the shortening of the sacraments
00:17:40.380
had to be justified through what Pope Pius X, XII, rather, warned against calling it antiquarianism.
00:17:48.000
We can get into that later. But the point is, the early church did have intricate and rich
00:17:54.040
sacraments for all seven of them, and had many words to them. Now, there were slow additions,
00:17:59.720
again, like the adding of certain saints into the Roman canon. And I should add, too,
00:18:04.000
the Roman canon was first in Aramaic, then it was in Greek, and then it was in Latin. So some people
00:18:08.740
say, oh, do you really think Jesus offered Mass in Latin? No. But he gave the words, at least in
00:18:15.140
skeleton form, in Aramaic, to the apostles in the Roman canon. And not only for the Eucharistic prayer,
00:18:24.820
also for baptism, for marriage, for ordination, and so on. Pope Pius XI said, men must look for
00:18:35.500
the peace of Christ in the kingdom of Christ. And he urged that the faithful give public honor to
00:18:41.620
Christ the King, so that individuals and states would submit once more to the rule of their
00:18:46.700
Savior. And that is why LifeSite News is raising up the image of Christ the King across the United
00:18:52.740
States. And you can help us reach millions more. Please pledge your support today for these billboards
00:18:59.860
at lifefunder.com slash Christ is King. I'm always amazed now because the missing parts then,
00:19:09.280
especially if you consider them in that light, become huge. Like these missing exorcisms from
00:19:14.580
baptism is the one that struck me. But there are also missing parts in ordination, which strikes me
00:19:22.080
as particularly scary. But then the culmination, of course, is in the Eucharistic prayer in the Roman
00:19:26.300
canon. Ordination only changed one word at Vatican to ut, it means so that the following might happen.
00:19:32.840
The priestly ordination, thankfully, only changed one word. The consecration of bishops changed a few
00:19:37.960
more. Strangely, it actually looked to the West, looked towards the East for the new consecration
00:19:43.700
of bishops. Again, I do think those are valid. But again, we have to ask, why did they shorten all
00:19:50.240
seven sacraments? And the typical answer you're going to get in every novice, every novice order
00:19:54.320
seminary is we want to be like the early church that was very simple. That's so interesting, because
00:19:59.080
I don't think the early church, even by biblical record, was very much about doing things hastily.
00:20:05.020
Didn't Paul preach so long that someone fell out of a window because he was tired and fell asleep and
00:20:10.920
died? He resurrected him, of course. But nonetheless, I don't think they were into very short things.
00:20:18.040
No, I'm glad you used the word hastily. I was talking to my friend before we went on, and I was
00:20:21.240
describing it. The reason they shortened is because they want everyone to get off to the Broncos game
00:20:25.960
as soon as possible. It has nothing to do with trying to be like the early church. I mean, does the
00:20:31.060
novice order world want people to all die martyrs as soon as possible, like the early church? I mean,
00:20:36.640
I think you hit it right on the head when you said it was to make everything hasty. It was to shorten
00:20:42.220
it because we don't have enough love for God to stick around for more than an hour.
00:20:46.720
I think a lot of people are going to have this question. At least I do. What do we do? We've had
00:20:51.260
all our sacraments already. Obviously, we have the Holy Sacrifice to the Mass. And for those of us who can get to
00:20:56.240
the Latin Mass, it's beautiful. But you can encourage a priest to say the first Eucharistic
00:21:03.740
prayer. But what about us who had these baptisms that are missing blessings, had our marriages?
00:21:10.680
Did the marriage right change in how much? Do you know?
00:21:13.220
No, and I do think all these are valid, but I'll give you an example. There's a lot of priests that
00:21:18.020
offer the Novus Ordo Mass that prefer the old right for making holy water. Now, you have to say,
00:21:24.460
why did they do that? Well, clearly, if they're doing the new Mass, they don't doubt that the new
00:21:29.580
right of holy water is making holy water, but they want it more powerful, right? And also,
00:21:35.340
many Novus Ordo exorcists, I mean, I should say exorcists who do the Novus Ordo as their daily Mass.
00:21:40.940
I'm clearly not talking about Father Ripperger here because his daily Mass is the traditional
00:21:43.900
mass. I know of exorcists whose daily Mass is the Novus Ordo, and they do the old right exorcism.
00:21:50.640
They won't do the post-Vatican II exorcism very much. And so, do they think the post-Vatican II
00:21:56.560
exorcism is invalid? No, but they know it's more powerful, right? So, if you have any set of
00:22:02.620
a contest listening, they will say, oh, no, all the new seven sacraments are invalid. I'm open to
00:22:08.380
their view, but I don't think it's true. But there are people somewhere between set of a contest and me
00:22:14.540
who will say, all the new seven sacraments are valid, but they're less powerful. Actually,
00:22:20.120
I guess that is my view. They are valid, but less powerful. And that makes sense. I mean,
00:22:24.660
the holy sacrifice and the Mass, this Novus Ordo has sustained countless Catholics in terms of their
00:22:31.060
faith and made, you know, they receive our Lord there and are in adoration before him. But with regard
00:22:40.480
to the different sacraments offering, even extra blessings, however you want to call it, more
00:22:47.300
powerful is a way to determine, that's so unfair in that most of us had no clue. We all grew up
00:22:57.980
without, I mean, anybody my age and younger. I was born in 1970. It's a done deal by that point.
00:23:05.100
Um, and my family, thanks to my dad, I'd heard of a Latin Mass. And, and when I think it was 84 or
00:23:12.480
something, there was some allowance for that's where the Tridentine Mass came in. We had, you know,
00:23:17.080
one priest going up and down in Toronto and my dad would take me every once in a while. We'd go to
00:23:21.640
some church here and there, but that was it. There was, there was never anything normal. And only since,
00:23:27.680
uh, Samorum Pontificum did even the cities get it. In the States, it's funny because I think a lot of
00:23:32.720
people in the States assume, oh, you have this great access to Latin Mass. It's so small. It's
00:23:39.080
so ridiculously small. When, when we were at this conference, something hit me. There are three
00:23:45.900
fraternity priests at this one parish, at this one church where they have Our Lady of Mount Carmel
00:23:52.000
there, uh, in Littleton, Colorado. I said to the people there, it's gorgeous that you walk in it.
00:23:57.640
It's the most, one of those stunning churches. They did something with the colors that is just
00:24:01.440
unbelievable. Um, but I said, I asked, uh, the, the pastor there, I said, father, um, how many, um,
00:24:10.540
fraternity priests are there in the world? He said, oh, about 300. I was like, yeah. Okay. So
00:24:15.480
you've got 1% of the whole wide world's, uh, uh, priests right here in this little parish in,
00:24:22.000
in Littleton, Colorado. And that's why it's funny because a lot of people think, and I think America,
00:24:27.480
which I think relative to the world, maybe only France might have, but there's more Latin masses
00:24:34.840
available probably there than anywhere else. And so it's funny to think of how blessed some parts are
00:24:41.980
where they have access to traditional sacraments, especially since Traditiones Custodis, which,
00:24:47.500
which booted it from all normal parishes. So in all the dioceses, now the only ones permitted
00:24:54.100
officially to have traditional sacraments are the fraternity and the Institute. Uh, those are the
00:25:01.180
two biggest anyway. And then the SSPX has them too. The SSPX of course is thought by some to be
00:25:06.540
in schism, which Bishop Schneider, who was the official Vatican visitator to them told one of
00:25:12.020
them anyway, said they're not, but nonetheless, there's this big debate. So a lot of people are
00:25:16.200
hesitant to go to the SSPX, but it's stunning how infrequent this is. I'm not saying I'm, I attend a
00:25:24.020
regular daily, uh, Nova Sordo parish. It is a beautiful parish with the altar rail and, and, uh,
00:25:29.480
and communion encouraged on the tongue and with the patent and everything else. But nonetheless,
00:25:34.580
people call that a unicorn mass or whatever. That's not as rare because access to the traditional
00:25:41.340
Latin mass is very, very rare indeed. So what can people do? I've heard of something. I don't know
00:25:46.960
what it is. It's like the extra missing blessings. Is there such a thing that you can appeal to a
00:25:52.320
traditional priest for? Yeah. The supplied rights. And I like the points you made because
00:25:56.960
what this, what this is showing us is we're talking about things being more powerful, not just
00:26:03.640
delicate little dainty differences that we traditionalists like, right? We're talking about,
00:26:10.520
um, substantial difference. And this is why there's such a huge return to tradition among anybody that's
00:26:15.840
studying this isn't because they like Latin more than English, or they like Latin more than French.
00:26:21.780
It's because they're looking at this and they're saying they want, for example, exorcisms over
00:26:27.560
their babies. Um, this is a story father Ripperger tells. I'm going to tell, I think I'm going to get
00:26:32.700
a couple of details wrong, but the basics is this, that I've heard him say on a podcast before
00:26:36.020
in the early 1930s, they had a case of like 10 or 12 possessed teenagers from Northern Italy.
00:26:44.680
And the Vatican sent priest delegates to Northern Italy to figure out what was going on.
00:26:48.960
Now, keep in mind, this is before Vatican II, when they only had the old right with all the
00:26:53.700
exorcisms leading up to the baptism. And the baptism is name, but again, before that,
00:27:01.860
there's these exorcisms. Well, they found that these 10 or 15 or 20 different possessed teenagers
00:27:08.620
had all come from the same parish. Well, lo and behold, early 1920s, they found they were all baptized
00:27:15.080
by the same pastor. Lo and behold, it's not that he was a proto-modernist. It's just that he was lazy
00:27:22.320
and he didn't do the exorcisms before baptism. We have a group of teenagers possessed, according to
00:27:29.780
his story, because their priest did baptize them, but didn't do the exorcisms. Now, could this maybe
00:27:35.880
explain why Catholics today have the exact same rate of entrance into psych units, transgender
00:27:42.080
surgeries, everything else? Could that explain why our kids are struggling so much these days?
00:27:48.100
I don't know. Father Ripperger's scene is less extreme than me, and he tells that story.
00:27:52.640
So it seems pretty important to me that we have those exorcisms in the baptism. Again,
00:27:57.820
they're valid baptisms, but I'm pretty sure the church was wise if East and West from apostolic
00:28:06.820
I want to talk about the supplied right, because I think for a lot of people, that's going to come
00:28:10.820
as a shocker. And there is a way to sort of, can I say, remedy that?
00:28:17.060
This existed before Vatican II. So imagine in the 19th century, say, a mom had a baby at home,
00:28:24.120
baby was in distress, and the maid, maybe they call it a nurse by modern translations, maid or nurse
00:28:29.080
comes in, baby's in distress, and the maid baptizes the baby. Okay, smart Catholic girl,
00:28:36.740
and then the baby lives. Well, what happens two days later is they go to the church for the
00:28:41.400
churching of the mother, and the priest gets the news from the maid or the mother or the dad,
00:28:46.000
oh yeah, baby was baptized. But of course, you know, the 18-year-old maid or nurse didn't do all
00:28:52.980
the exorcisms. So what they do is the exorcisms in a retroactive manner upon that baby. And this
00:28:59.060
has been around for hundreds of years. What happened is in the traditional world following
00:29:03.740
Vatican II, as more and more Catholics who've had their babies baptized in the new right, which again,
00:29:09.100
I believe is a valid baptism, but was missing some of these exorcisms. And real quick, some people
00:29:12.780
say, well, baptism is more powerful than exorcism, doesn't it cover it? That's why I point to
00:29:17.220
Father Ripperger's story that, no, there's something there that is important. We won't
00:29:23.260
go into the difference between ex opere operata and operantis, but there's some aspects of operantis
00:29:28.120
in that. Anyway, post-Vatican II, more and more families are coming, especially these days, the last
00:29:33.340
10 years, more and more families who've had their babies baptized in the new right of baptism
00:29:37.360
coming to tradition, and they're saying, how can we get these exorcisms retroactively? And a lot of
00:29:44.040
priests are saying, well, it's a little weird to do it for someone who was baptized, you know, a year
00:29:50.940
ago or two years ago or 30 years ago. But if the church has allowed this to be done in a retroactive
00:29:58.280
manner, what's to prevent it from being done now? Now, where there's debate in the traditional world
00:30:03.720
is how long after. So like Dr. Kwasnefsky and Father Ripperger would say, it's only for infants. You
00:30:10.220
can only do that for infants. I take a little more liberal view, I should generous view, maybe not
00:30:15.120
liberal view, and I'm happy to do it for adults. And I admit Dr. K and Father Ripperger know a thousand
00:30:20.800
more things about this than I do, but I kind of take the Epike approach. Epike is a virtue of St.
00:30:26.340
Thomas Aquinas that in tough days in the church, you put common sense ahead of law. So I'm happy to do
00:30:32.300
the supplied rites for adults. But many traditional priests who disagree with me on that are still
00:30:40.280
willing to do the supplied rites, the retroactive exorcisms for infants who had, for example, just
00:30:46.060
received a Novus Ordo baptism. Kind of controversial stuff, but it's just the answer to your question on
00:30:50.180
as there's a lot of people asking these questions.
00:30:53.560
Indeed. Because as more and more people find out about tradition, even though they believe they're
00:30:59.820
valid, but realize, oh, we're missing something. And particularly when they hear stuff like you
00:31:04.740
mentioned from Father Ripperger and this story of the account of the priest who just didn't do it.
00:31:11.820
We are at this stage. Now, I've heard another explanation, and basically it was ecclesia suplet.
00:31:20.100
Why don't you explain that a little bit? What's the theory there? And it's basically people who
00:31:26.600
believe, or priests or bishops or whatever, I was told by both, but who basically said,
00:31:32.080
it doesn't really matter the church supplies. But explain that if you would.
00:31:36.040
Yeah, the ecclesia suplet means the church supplies for any defects in the minister or the person
00:31:41.160
receiving the sacraments. And that's an ancient aspect of ecclesiology and sacramental theology that's
00:31:47.960
certainly very valid, but it has its limits. And I'll give you an example of one of those.
00:31:51.840
Five years ago, there was a priest, I believe, from Minnesota, and they found that he, as a baby,
00:31:59.480
20 or 30 years prior, had been baptized by the priest. And the priest used the words,
00:32:03.500
we baptize you in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit.
00:32:07.180
Well, amazingly, not only did his diocese in Minnesota, but even the liberal Vatican admitted
00:32:13.220
that, using we, was an invalid baptism, meaning all of his orders were invalid.
00:32:19.000
And even Catholic news agency covered this. This was a mainstream article that said, hey,
00:32:25.500
sorry about all the confessions this guy heard. He wasn't giving absolution. Why? Because he wasn't
00:32:30.360
a priest. Why? Because he wasn't a Christian. He'd never been baptized the right way. And so what's
00:32:36.020
fascinating to me about that story is neither the diocese nor the current Vatican looked at that
00:32:42.500
and said ecclesia suplet. No, they both actually, in this case, gave the correct answer to say,
00:32:47.840
the church supplies for certain defects, but not defects of matter and form in that sense.
00:32:56.380
And so ecclesia suplet is a good thing, and it's good to look to that, but it doesn't supply
00:33:01.960
for major defects of matter and form. And that example that I give of that priest,
00:33:06.680
they had to baptize him, confirm him, and then ordain him. I don't know what they did about all the
00:33:10.520
people in his rearview mirror whose confessions. Now, all the baptisms he did were actually valid.
00:33:15.040
Why? Because a lay person, even an unbaptized person can do baptisms. So the people he baptized
00:33:21.220
are still baptized because he was a layman, right? But all the Eucharist he confected, not valid.
00:33:28.080
And again, this is Catholic news agency supports me on this. This isn't a wacko theory.
00:33:31.940
All the confessions he heard. Now, you might be able to say the confessions he heard, maybe there's
00:33:38.580
ecclesia suplet that God forgave those people because they tried to get to confession and things
00:33:44.400
like that. But that's spurious. All we can do is we can hope, but we don't have proof that's the case.
00:33:50.080
Unbelievable. Unbelievable. Father, final thoughts for us.
00:33:53.580
Well, let's see, final thoughts. I wrote a couple things down.
00:33:55.980
Um, uh, one of the things is, you know, this, this archeologism or antiquarianism,
00:34:03.540
this is this notion that Pius XII was worried about. And antiquarianism was something he preached
00:34:11.020
again. Antiquarianism is the notion that there would be certain Catholic sacramental theologians
00:34:16.680
that would only look at the first, second and third century, and then ignore what the Holy Spirit did
00:34:21.560
in say the fifth century in liturgy or the eighth century in liturgy or the 15th century in liturgy.
00:34:27.060
And so he wanted to say, no, no, no, the Holy Spirit is working, uh, in the first millennium of
00:34:33.000
liturgy and the second millennium in these small additions. But if I could go back in time, one thing
00:34:37.840
I'd say to Pius XII is maybe you don't have as much to worry about as you think, because most of what
00:34:43.680
we keep finding in first and second century, uh, liturgy and sacraments is actually supporting
00:34:49.900
all of the Tridentine sacraments. It turns out there's very little change. There's little
00:34:53.980
material changes, but substantially these are all the same as the Tridentine sacraments. And I would
00:34:58.880
even go a step further and say all the ancient Eastern rites are suspiciously similar to the
00:35:05.820
Roman rite ones. And so Pope Benedict even mentioned this. I don't like, he uses a little bit modernist
00:35:12.580
language in saying the president over the meal, but this is a quote from Pope Benedict. He says,
00:35:16.980
in no meal of the early Christian era, did the president of the banqueting assembly ever face
00:35:22.920
the other participants? What does that show us? That shows us that the notion of the priest facing
00:35:28.720
the people is purely Protestant. It's not an early church thing. It's purely Protestant to have the
00:35:34.560
priest face you. And Pope Benedict, who did not do the traditional Latin mass, by the way, he only did
00:35:39.300
the Novus Ordo, at least, uh, in his episcopacy and in his, and in his papacy, even he right there is
00:35:46.240
admitting that the early church, whether East or West, the priest offered the holy sacrifice of the mass
00:35:52.180
with his back to the people. So I'm not afraid of the early centuries. I'm saying we should go back to
00:35:57.660
them. And what we're going to do, if we do that, we're going to start seeing all of the so-called
00:36:04.600
Absolutely beautiful. Father, where can people find out and read more from you?
00:36:08.640
I run a little blog called Padre Peregrino, and that's also the name of my YouTube channel. It's
00:36:14.020
also on like Spotify and Rumble and stuff. So Padre Peregrino means father pilgrim. Sounds kind
00:36:18.960
of dorky in English, but a little cooler in Spanish. PadrePeregrino.org and also same at YouTube
00:36:24.980
and stuff. That's where you can find the writings. The podcast is a little bit more scripture and
00:36:30.060
catechesis, a little less controversial. The blog tackles these, these things of what really changed in
00:36:35.660
the church. It's a little bit more controversial, but that's the main thing I do is teaching mental
00:36:39.840
prayer on my scripture series and patristic scripture. We look at the Roman Catechism of
00:36:45.660
Trent in another series, and then the blog usually tackles these spicier topics.
00:36:51.100
Awesome. Father, if you wouldn't mind, bless us before you leave.
00:36:55.480
Yeah, thanks. Thanks so much for having me, Mr. Weston. I really appreciate it.
00:37:16.840
And God bless all of you. I'll see you next time.