Theologian corrects Vatican Abp. who said priests could accompany assisted suicide victims
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Summary
Archbishop Vincenzo Paglia recently said that anyone who believes that Judas is in hell is a heretic. Dr. Monica Miller, a theologian and pro-life activist, joins us to discuss the comments.
Transcript
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Welcome to this episode of the John Henry Weston Show.
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I'm your host, John Henry Weston, and I'm thrilled to bring you Dr. Monica Miller,
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a theologian and pro-life activist who's here to discuss with us something very controversial.
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Last week, Archbishop Paglia from the Vatican made comments that suggest that anyone who
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says Judas is in hell is a heretic, and also talked about how a priest could hold the hand
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of an assisted suicide person going through that, and that's just fine.
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Let's begin, as we always do, with the sign of the cross.
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In the name of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit.
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She is also someone very well known in the pro-life movement.
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The founders of Citizens for Pro-Life, what's it called again?
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And also very famous for having found unborn aborted baby victims, their bodies discarded
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Also, though, probably less known is the fact that she's a theologian, and she's a theologian,
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And actually, what I found very enjoyable was reading Rome Street Home by the Hans that talk
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Dr. Miller is mentioned in there as really inspiring the Hans in their pro-life work that
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actually helped them a lot in their own ongoing struggle over the faith.
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He and I were in graduate classes together at Marquette back in the 1980s, and I attended
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It was a conditional baptism, but I attended that, and I've been good friends with the
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Yeah, he calls it, I think, the Grand Slam or something like that.
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It's really great to speak to you about this, because when I saw this issue come up,
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Archbishop Vincenzo Paglia making these comments about hell, and then also about the pro-life
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issue of suicide and what to do about it, I thought immediately of you, because I thought,
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Archbishop Paglia, of course, is already very controversial, having come from Terny, the
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Diocese of Terny, where he had a very controversial mural put up with himself embracing a nude
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He's the guy who went to the Pontifical Council for the Family first, then the Pontifical
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At the Academy for Life, under his watch, they got rid of the pro-life pledge, got rid of
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a bunch of the members who were very close to John Paul II.
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Then he went and still, as the head of the Academy, also heads up the Pontifical Council,
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excuse me, the John Paul II Institute for Marriage and the Family, which similarly, they got rid
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of their mandate or changed it drastically now to promote Amoris Laetitia, also getting rid of the
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two most prominent professors associated with the Institute.
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So, from there, let's go into what he said last week.
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Last week, Archbishop Paglia said, and I'll quote it for you, one of the things he said
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anyway was, yes, we must remember that for the Catholic Church, this is a direct quote,
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for the Catholic Church, if someone says that Judas is in hell, he is a heretic, end quote.
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So, we'll unpack that a little bit and then go back to what he was talking about in the
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But just that statement has caused a lot of consternation.
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We know that Pope Francis has sort of intimated with some interviews that, you know, a person
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Sculfery is one of those people who he interviews regularly with, and he's said numerous times
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In fact, he said, you know, when he pushed him once to say, what happens if someone doesn't
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And the Pope said, according to Sculfery, no, he's annihilated, which of course is all sorts
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But those interviews have never been denounced by the Vatican.
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In fact, they're published in a book by the Vatican, but they're still quasi denied by
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saying, well, Sculfery never takes notes, so we can't be sure about anything.
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And yet, the interviews with him continue and continue and continue.
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But Dr. Miller, if you can just unpack for us just that one thing about anyone who says
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Well, my first reaction, John Henry, is, you know, it is kind of amazing what comes out
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of the mouths of some of the prominent people in the Catholic Church regarding their theological
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But it's, I would classify or characterize the comment is just theologically reckless.
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I also find it a little humorous, perhaps, who it is that he would be maligning in terms
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of their theological opinion, namely St. Augustine and the likes of St. Thomas Aquinas, because
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they certainly argued that, shall we say, Judas is not among the saved, which I guess is another
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The thing is, I mean, there is no Catholic position that says, if anyone, Christian, non-Christian,
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whatever, Catholic, whatever, believes that Judas is not among the saved, that they're
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And I think what he's doing, which kind of gets us into the second comment that he made
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regarding priests being able to pastorally accompany those who are committing suicide or
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I think what Polly is trying to get at is that we cannot say with certainty that such persons
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So he's salvaged Judas as kind of the poster boy, right, for those who do commit suicide
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and may nonetheless have wound up saving their souls.
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Now, maybe Judas is spending an awful long time in purgatory.
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But in any case, Polly wants to get him into the saved category.
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I think it's because he has this view, again, that those among us who have been failed by friends,
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And by the way, he basically blames society for people who choose suicide or assisted suicide.
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Well, they don't get the blame for the action that they're choosing.
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He's blamed the culture rather than the actual individual choice, the individual will of the
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person who wants the lethal injection, wants the overdose of drugs, wants to shoot themselves
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So he's trying to save Judas again as the poster boy for those sad situations where people are
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Their level of personal freedom somehow is compromised.
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That is part of Catholic social or moral teaching.
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And yet he's comparing that to Judas, who had full will, full knowledge of what he was
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doing, went up to our Lord and betrayed him, really hated Christ.
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Even from the beginning, he's stealing from the apostles.
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Well, exactly, and thank you for bringing that up because some of the most serious, damning,
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But damning statements are made in God's word regarding Judas.
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So in other words, theologically speaking, even if you wanted to go up a notch, doctrinally
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speaking, in God's holy word, Judas has been placed himself on the side of Satan.
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In the Gospel of John, John actually gave us the reason.
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The other tragedy about Judas is he had a certain level of regret.
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Because he went back to the Sanhedrin, to the Jewish elders, the chief priests, and wanted
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But what he fails to do is to open himself up in humility, like Peter did, and cast his
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sins at the one place where they could have achieved forgiveness, at the heart of our Lord.
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Instead, he commits the worst sin, which is despair, despairing of salvation, despairing of forgiveness.
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And so his way to get out of his own personal suffering is not to place that suffering at
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And in some ways, I mean, I think that brings us to the situation of suicide and assisted suicide.
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Because that is the failure of hope where, you know, what is the Christian religion?
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One of the most important dimensions and gifts of the Christian faith is that our suffering
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can be united to the suffering of Jesus, and it's salvific.
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But when somebody commits suicide, and I'm going to say even worse, in a way, the assisted
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suicide movement, because there, it's packaged.
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It's not even such a question of despair, as it is not to see value in human suffering, but
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And that, I think, is even a worse, it's worse than somebody who's in a depression.
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They find that they have to get out because they're in such despair over life.
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And they throw themselves off a bridge, they buy a gun, and they shoot themselves, and
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They don't involve someone else in aiding and abetting their act of despair.
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So, I mean, that brings us, I guess, in a way to the second, in some ways, even more
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problematic, a position that Vincenzo Apaglia raised just a few days ago in his statement
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Let me read that so all of yours can know what was happening.
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So, first of all, he said, and he goes back and forth, because he says, we're against assisted
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He says, we're against assisted suicide because we do not want the dirty work of death, and
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because we are all well aware that for believers, life goes on.
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To accompany and hold the hand of those who are dying, he says, is the great task of every
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And then he goes on to say, assisted suicide is a great defeat for society.
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And then he says, and I'll quote him again, I always celebrate funerals for those who commit
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suicide, because suicide is always a question of unfulfilled love.
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And then he goes on to talk about holding the hand as well of the assisted suicide victim
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Well, that's where he goes on to say, we must also remember that for the, why, it's amazing
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he, this is a definitive statement, for the Catholic Church, which is absolutely not true.
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If someone says that Judas is in hell, he is a heretic.
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Well, well, that's the thing you were mentioning to you mentioned, John, in the book of John
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And I think that to me is incredibly fascinating, because our Lord was very, very explicit about
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That's why I've said in the past, when people have asked me, I'd say, you know, in order
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to say Judas isn't hell, you'd have to make Jesus a liar.
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Um, and there's a couple of quotes that are very powerful from my perspective on that,
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Um, he says, while I was with them, I protected them and kept them safe, uh, by that name you
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gave me, none has been lost except the one doomed to destruction or the son of perdition
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in other translations so that the scripture would be fulfilled.
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I, again, I, I think that there's this over sensitivity, if you will, this, this, I don't
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know, how, how, how, how do I say it without being misunderstood or misinterpreted, but there
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You know, mercy and compassion trumps everything, even logic, even the truth and the doctrines
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of our faith are somehow mitigated, altered, uh, muted, subordinated to this, this, this
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And, and, and, and so that you could even have a poly poly up saying that a priest could
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accompany someone who is engaged in an act of assisted suicide.
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So that person, um, you know, isn't going to die alone, hold the hand, right?
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Hold the hand of somebody who's engaged in that.
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I, I, I'm trying to find analogies to help people understand what, what, what's an issue
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First of all, he does say, um, I, I, I, at least I think, I, I believe he said the priest
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cannot be in the room when the lethal injection is administrated.
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That, that was the, that was the conference that said that the, so there's, he was reacting
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to the, uh, Swiss bishops guidelines and they're the ones who said that the, uh, priest may not
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be in the room when the lethal injection is administered.
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And says, indeed, you should be in the room and hold the hand.
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There's no way that you can stand by while somebody takes a gun and points it to their
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temple and is about ready to point, to pull the trigger and kill themselves and not intervene
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to stop them from doing that evil act to themselves.
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You have a, you have a moral responsibility to stop that killing, to prevent it, to protest
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against it, to counsel the person away from that act of, uh, self violation.
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And for, and for a priest to just to be there and hold the hand and mop the brow and stroke
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the head of somebody who's going to kill themselves, that priest is aided and abetted.
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They have given the impression then to anyone standing by the hospital staff, the nursing
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staff, the doctors, the janitors, whoever, and then just the public at large, that there
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must not be anything morally wrong with assisted suicide.
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That priest has a duty to help that person live their life.
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It means being with that person in their suffering, to stand by that person as they are going through
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whatever, whatever suffering they are enduring, whether it's physical pain, the last stages of,
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you know, stage four cancer, um, being, being bedridden and not being able to live the kind
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of quality of life that you want for yourself because of the various handicaps or disabilities.
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That's the Christian love that we're supposed to show someone and, and to be there and to,
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If Polly would agree, and let's just give him the benefit of the doubt.
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I mean, he says, you know, we don't want to be there while the dirty work of death, right?
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The dirty work of death is, is, um, is being accomplished.
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Okay, could you hold the hand and stand by while a woman is in the process of aborting her unborn
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And you know, there are a lot of clinic workers I've even seen, and it makes me sick to my
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You'll see photographs of a clinic worker holding, holding the hand of the woman while she's on
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the procedure, uh, table, getting her abortion.
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And I, I, I find that so contradictory because while we're having that human connection, we're
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having, while we're having that human connection, holding the hand of somebody killing her baby,
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you're, you're, you're making a human connection while there is the supreme disconnection.
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That person who's committing assisted suicide is committing an act of disconnection.
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I am disconnecting myself from the life that God has given to me.
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You have to help that person remove themselves from that act of self-violation, whether it's
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the priest, the nurse, the doctor, the janitor who's in the room mopping the floor.
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And, and, and, and, you know, thank God for the Swiss bishops.
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So we have to, we have to support the light where, wherever it may be found.
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Now it is very interesting because that analogy is really, really good because both situations,
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especially in today's world, they seem so perfect, so wonderful.
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So this notion that Archbishop Paglia is presenting, I think it would extend actually to, to holding
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the hand of a woman getting an abortion as well.
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And it's so, you know, because it sounds so good from the perspective of the world.
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Yes, they're making a choice that may be a sad choice, but, you know, we're going to
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be there and we're going to show them love anyway.
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And yet it's not showing them love to help them down the path.
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It looks like love, but in essence, metaphysically speaking, spiritually speaking, morally speaking,
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it's an act of death that, you know, dressed up to look like love.
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And that, that's, that's where the trick, it's, it, and we're tricked by it.
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We're sucked in by that falsehood and, and, and, and we need to, we need to, we need to name
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The whole notion of nobody ever goes to hell is also a great falsehood.
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And it starts with Judas because that's the most extreme case.
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Before, before we started taping this, you were telling me of one of the key quotes from
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You were saying, I believe it was one of the worst curses or whatever he gives to anyone
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That, that Jesus said of Judas, Judas, it would have been better had he never been born.
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Our Lord is actually saying that about someone.
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If I, if I, if the Lord had ever said something like that about me or one of my loved ones had
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They really, what Jesus is saying better had they never existed because why, you know, why is
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it that it would have been better for Judas never to have been born because he's going
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to suffer the worst suffering to be disconnected from God and not among the saved?
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And it's a logical conclusion that a, a, a Catholic, a theologian, a believer can make
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And by the way, while we're on the subject, um, and it's, it's kind of pertinent regarding
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all the controversy that's been going on with, uh, uh, Archbishop Fulton Sheen and the,
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Fulton Sheen, um, in one of his great books, The Life of Christ, it's a great book.
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So if anyone wants to pick up that book and, and, and get a good read on, um, kind of, shall
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The Life of Christ, he said, the tragedy of Judas is that he is not Saint Judas, right?
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I love tragedy of Judas is that he's not called Saint Judas.
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He didn't go on to become a saint and he could have.
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I, it's, it's so evident from the scriptures, but again, this whole notion of an empty hell
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or the positing of that position, I think it's actually very similar to looks good, sounds
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good, but really is metaphysically speaking, horrific.
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And here's the other thing, John, John Henry, if, if you want to have this theological position
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Not Osama bin Laden, Adolf Hitler, Attila Dahan, nobody, right?
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You can even hope that Judas somehow, and maybe in that last second when he, you know,
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But Jesus wasted an awful lot of his preaching because he often warned people, you know, if,
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if, if you don't do this and so you risk the fires of hell, you risk the fires of Gehenna.
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And if that's the case, then we need, we need to take it seriously as well.
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Well, I mean, I mean, how, how, how can we square logically, um, Jesus is saying, Jesus
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is saying, um, it would have been better for him not to have been born.
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How can we even hope that Judas is in heaven somehow?
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Because if he was in heaven, if he is in heaven, it's not better for him never to have been
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So I, I don't think that this is settled doctrine.
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And that's all somebody wants to believe that Judas somehow, you know, by the skin of his
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If somebody wants to believe that, uh, it doesn't make them necessarily a heretic.
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I think they're kind of hard pressed to hold that position, but it's not as if the church
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So going back to Polly, I can't say that's the problem.
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Polly, I can't say that those of us who do hold that position and some pretty, uh, heavy
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duty theologians in the history of our church have held that position.
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Now this, this whole attitude as a, as a pro-lifer, I think your description of it, uh, is the
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The comparison to holding a woman as she goes ahead and has an abortion, um, is, is probably
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the perfect comparison to this act, which in itself is really, uh, while it looks nice
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and wonderful and caring and so on, it's horrible.
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You're, uh, you're in, in a way complicit in someone's killing, the killing of themselves
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or having a doctor kill themselves, but nonetheless.
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Um, so it's unbelievable to hear this coming from the Vatican.
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Um, I should ask you, what do you expect a correction?
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I mean, this is a very public, this was given as a public, uh, talk and, uh, and he is the
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head of the Pontifical Academy for Life, the head of the John Paul II Institute for
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Um, so these words of his are going to be listened to, uh, perhaps by many Catholic priests.
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Um, what would your advice be for Catholic priests hearing this?
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Well, first of all, the, the, the sacred congregation for the doctrine of the faith needs to make a
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I, I, I think, I, I think it's incumbent that a clarification, uh, a statement be made.
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Um, all I can hope for a John Henry is that the majority, or if not the, uh, you know, every single
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priest has got to know that this can't be right.
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Um, um, they, they would innately know it, it can't be right.
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Um, and only those who are looking for an excuse, um, to excuse sin on any level, whether it's
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abortion, homosexual activity, uh, cheating on your taxes, um, you know, infidelity to your
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spout, whatever direction you want to go, um, only, only a priest is looking for an excuse
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to excuse sin, period, is going to, is going to agree.
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I, I think with, um, with, uh, uh, Pavia, uh, it's foolishness.
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It's, it's, it's, it's, it's reckless, it's foolishness, and very dangerous that, that such
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a statement would, would, would be made by somebody so high ranking at the Vatican.
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Well, Monica, thank you so very much for being with us on the John Henry Reston Show.
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If you have any parting words for your fellow pro-lifers, we'd love to hear them now.
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No, maybe just to go to our website, put in a plug for pro-life society.com.
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Um, people can go there and, and see what we're up to.
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And, uh, since it's coming up, I want to wish you a very happy, happy, happy Christmas.
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And that's it from the John Henry Reston Show for this week.
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Stay tuned after Christmas, we'll start up again.