There is a legitimate way forward for married priests： Celibacy
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Summary
In this episode of the John Henry Weston Show, Father Tony Pallari, a canon lawyer and chaplain of the Extraordinary Form, talks about the importance of celibacy in the Catholic Church, and why it should not be a requirement for the priesthood.
Transcript
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Hello and welcome to this episode of the John Henry Weston Show coming to you today from Rome
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where the Amazon Synod is going on and we are very pleased to have with us Father Tony Pallari
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who's going to speak to us about celibacy while the Amazon Synod is underway. Stay tuned.
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Welcome Father. Thank you John Henry. It's great to be here. It's been a fantastic week in Rome and
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delighted to be able to speak with you. Praise God. Let's tell everybody a little bit about
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yourself. So you're a priest. You offer the traditional rite. You live in England. Yes.
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I'm in the the land of saints and martyrs in southwest England in Cornwall living where
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St. Cuthbert, Maine himself offered the Holy Mass before being hung, drawn, and quartered.
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I'm a canon lawyer, chaplain of the extraordinary form, and love being a priest in God's church.
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Beautiful. Beautiful. So let's if we can talk first a little bit about your own priestly life,
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how you got to the priesthood, and why you chose it. I think that would be fascinating to start with.
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Sure. So when I was 17 years old, I began to feel a tug on my heart towards the priesthood,
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but I was afraid to tell anyone. So I went into an old good holy priest and knocked on his door and
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said, Father, can I talk with you? I think maybe God's calling to be a priest for these different
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reasons, but there's one problem. I really, really like girls. And he broke out laughing. He said,
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that's great. There would be a real problem if you don't like girls. This is excellent. And then in
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the following years, it really was true devotion to Mary through St. Louis to Mumford. A friend gave
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me that book. At the time, I was dating a wonderful, great Catholic girl, a fantastic young woman,
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a very devout woman. But as I made the consecration to Our Lady, began feeling more and more a tug on my
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soul to be totally, be free to just give myself completely to the Lord. And it's been the greatest
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gift I've ever received in my life, the most wonderful, joyful gift I could imagine.
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Amazing. Amazing. Now, the Synod is going on, and there have been a lot of proposals,
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both before the Synod and from even the Holy Father himself, to do away with celibacy, to
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have celibacy as an option, yes, and maybe an ideal or something, but not a requirement for the
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priesthood, not a requirement for holy orders. I want to go into this about the priesthood, first of all,
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but then also to address all holy orders, bishop, obviously, priest, but also deacon.
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It's a very serious question, John Henry. To be honest, we're, the Church is facing a very serious risk
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of very serious damage being done to the Church. I want to quote for you the words of Cardinal
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It's only through faith that is constantly and consciously sustained that the supernatural reasons
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underlying the commitment to celibacy can be truly understood. When this faith grows weak,
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the determination to persevere in celibacy fades. When faith dies, so does continence.
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And he goes on to talk about historically the tremendous damage to the faith that's taken place
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A constant proof of this truth is to be found in the various heretical and schismatic movements
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that have arisen in the Church. One of the first institutions to be attacked is clerical continence.
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Therefore, we should not be surprised that one of the first things that was rejected by heretical
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movements that broke away from the unity of the Catholic Church in the 16th century,
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Lutherans, Calvinists, Zwinglians, Anglicans, was in fact clerical celibacy.
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Essentially, the faith rises or falls with celibacy. There's a very intimate link,
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and we would be putting ourselves in an extremely dangerous position of damage to the faith
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if there was a decision made to essentially do away with the obligation of clerical celibacy.
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And not only that, not only is it historically proven, there's a very serious connection between faith
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and continence, but this comes to us from the apostles themselves. This is something that was
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handed down to us from the apostles. There are great scholarly works. I highly recommend one by
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Father Christian Coccini from a few decades ago, but that's the authoritative statement. He's a Jesuit
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priest, very good scholar. But there's a number of books out there which show that this comes from the
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apostles themselves. In the first centuries of the Church under persecution, we don't have very
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many written documents, but you do find indications here and there from the fathers of the Church.
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And Coccini goes through every single one of them from the first seven centuries of the Church.
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When in the fourth century the Church is able to come out of persecution and hiding and have
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councils and documents begin to emerge, she was above all preoccupied with the great Aryan heresy,
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many major dogmas in that area. But you do find also statements simply reaffirming what was the
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practice that had been handed on from the apostles. To give you an example, this is from the Council of
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Carthage, which took place in 390, which declared in its official documents,
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those who are in the service of the divine sacraments, that is both deacons, priests, and bishops,
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those who are in the service of the divine sacraments, observe perfect continence, so that they may
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obtain in all simplicity what they are asking from God. What the apostles taught and what antiquity
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itself observed, let us also endeavor to keep. And those statements you find universal testimony to,
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essentially, if you look at the different councils, they're all saying not this is a new practice we're
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coming up with, this is something new, we have to make the sacrifice. No, they're saying this is the
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practice that's been handed on to us from the apostles in antiquity. And this is not something
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that could have remained hidden in the early centuries of the Church. We know that St. Peter himself was
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married. We hear of his mother-in-law. We know that some of the early bishops and priests, a fair number of
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them, were married. But from the moment that they were ordained, they observed perfect, perpetual
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continence. That is, they, that means concretely, they could never more get married, and they could
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never more make use of their marital rights. They could no longer father children. And that was the
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standard practice, which would have been very noticeable. You would have known in the community
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very obviously, and certainly anyone being ordained, that's the reason why the practice still throughout the
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centuries of the Church was you had to ask, obtain in a serious way the wife's permission if a married
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man was being ordained, because she was also going to accept voluntarily this practice. And you, that's
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why you have in the Scriptures the, the passage where St. Peter says to the Lord, what about us?
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We've left all we had to follow you. The Lord replied, I tell you solemnly, there is no one who has left
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house, wife, brothers, parents, or children, for the sake of the kingdom of God, who will not be given
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repayment many times over in this present time, and in the world to come, eternal life. And many people
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are unaware, so he's speaking there of leaving wife and children, and many of the, there were of course
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many men who had never married who were ordained, but men who were married who were ordained, some of
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them would literally leave to become missionaries, or live apart from their wives, others would live
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as brother and sisters under the same roof in the early Church. With time, the Church fostered more
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and more perpetual celibacy throughout their life, where men would, would enter and never marry, but
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still you find up through the Middle Ages, married men being ordained, but observing very clearly
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perpetual continence. And this was taken so seriously, that if a man fathered children after being
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ordained, he was normally immediately excluded from the practice of his priesthood, or diaconate,
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or bishop, because there's only one sacrament in three degrees. We only have seven sacraments,
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and one of them is the sacrament of holy orders, which applies to deacons, priests, and bishops in
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different degrees, but it's one sacrament. So this was the principle. Really, you have statements in the
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early Church, this was considered equivalent to, really to a sin of adultery, if you fathered children
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after ordination at the time. Now, let's unpack. There's so much there. First of all, we have
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our Lord. So all of the priest is in persona Christi, and Christ came, never got married,
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was celibate his whole life. So that's the ideal we're aiming for. You mentioned, though, that even
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with the choice of the first pope, Peter, one of the very first apostles, he was already a married man,
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but lived in perfect continents thereafter, therefore had no more sexual relations with
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his own wife. So a huge sacrifice, and you alluded to his saying to our Lord, yeah, but what about us
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who've given up wife and children and so on, which is just amazing. But that actually opens up the
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possibility. You were talking about how in the early and even to the middle centuries, the priesthood was
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actually sort of foremarried when in a way too, as long as their wives agreed, and therefore they
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could practice this perfect continents, therefore give up sexual relations. That's fascinating,
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because I think that might be a sort of way forward, an orthodox way forward. So we're not getting into
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some kind of different church, or as you said, leaving celibacy leads to a leaving of the faith,
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faith, and it's a danger for the faith. There's a possibility here of a sort of new opening in the
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priesthood, if you will, to married men with the understanding that they would be, with the
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permission of their wives, living in continents from then on. Yes, that practice would be in harmony
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with the tradition of the church, and very much in harmony with the key principle as to why
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perpetual perfect continents was considered absolutely necessary. The reason in the early documents
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was the link between the celebration of the holy sacrifice of the mass, any involvement in that
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as a deacon, as a priest, or as a bishop, and perfect continents. St. Paul, well, let me cite for
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The unmarried man is anxious about the affairs of the Lord, how to please the Lord, but the married man
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is anxious about worldly affairs, how to please his wife, and his interests are divided. For a season that
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you may devote yourselves to prayer. Sorry, he speaks about married couples practicing continents
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don't be apart except for a season to devote yourselves to prayer. So St. Paul makes the link
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that was universally recognized in the early church that there is something extremely helpful for your
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prayer in observing continents. And that's why it was seen as essential if you're going to be
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actively playing a very active role in the holy sacrifice of the mass in the most important prayer
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we have on the earth. You needed to observe this total consecration to God in this way so that your
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body and even more your soul could be more fully dedicated to the prayer that you're being offered.
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And yes, it is a possibility. Certainly there are very significant advantages, and the church should
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always foster young men entering and giving their lives entirely to the Lord in perfect continents.
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But it is a possibility that could be done today of ordaining married men who are willing,
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and I think there would be married men who would be willing to take this step of observing henceforth
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I mean, I think this is an amazing thing because they're pointing to the Amazon. As I've said before
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on previous shows, it's an abuse of the people in the Amazon. You know, they're taking this small
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population there of the indigenous in the Amazon saying they have no priests and nobody and they
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need to come, and the church needs to therefore change the church and give married, not only married
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clergy, but also women, female priests, or at least deacons to start and so on. But that's an abuse.
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They don't have the, what they really need is true Catholicism there because they've actually lost
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a lot of it. There's boasting going on about never having baptized any, and it's like a zoo.
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But we are actually, with this neat possibility that you mentioned, able to actually do something
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Now, we have this sort of already, John Paul II opened up the possibility of married men entering
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holy orders in the form of what he called the permanent diaconate. But in there, it seemed like
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there wasn't a requirement for celibacy, or you could still father children. How did that work?
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That, that's a point which is hotly debated still today. Some of our listeners may be familiar
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with the canonist Edward Peters, who's often written on that in North America. It's something
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completely unique in the history of the church, and I would argue a real mistake in the discipline
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of the church that's taken place the last few decades, because never before in the Western
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tradition did you have the standard policy of ordaining married men and allowing them to make
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use of their marital rights afterwards. It was, it was so essential to, from that point
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on, observe perfect continence. So when the new code, which you're referring to, came out
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in 1983, and there's been arguments. In fact, most of the men who've been ordained as deacon
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were told, were not told, you need to observe perfect continence. They were told by their superiors,
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by the bishops and voices that this, you can continue to live in an ordinary way with your
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wife. But in fact, when the code was being prepared, the first code of canon law after 1917,
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so the major code prepared for years in 1983 was published. In 1977 and in 1980 and 1982,
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the major drafts of that code all had in it language which explicitly said that married deacons
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can continue to father children. But John Paul II made the deliberate choice to remove that
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language. He did not allow that to enter into the code in 1983. Now, why would he have done that
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if this was what was supposed to be done? And not only that, but the language in the code,
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I'll read for you in canon 277 reads, clerics, so that refers to any deacon, priest, or bishop.
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Clerics are obliged to observe perfect and perpetual continence. It's very explicitly stated.
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And so there are voices, very high voices in the church. Cardinal Coco Palmario, for example,
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whose role up until about a year ago was to interpret in an authoritative way legislative text.
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He wrote a letter to the U.S. bishops, which was not clear. It doesn't seem this was not a binding
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interpretation from what we can tell canonically. But he wrote a letter saying that, no, the right
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way of understanding is men should be able to make use of their married rights. But there has never
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been an official authoritative interpretation of the church. And when you look at the entire history
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of how intimately this was related, and to speak frankly of the historical disasters that have taken
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place when you remove this practice, it speaks very strongly in favor of maintaining it.
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Absolutely. Now, so there's a push in the church not only to do it this way, but the other way as well.
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What I mean by that is this. Back when Cardinal Bergoglio was in Buenos Aires, he was actually friends
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with a woman whose husband was a bishop. He left the bishopric and lived at home with, he got married,
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so-called, and then lived at home with his wife, would apparently can celebrate masses with his wife
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or whatever. She became the head of the movement of married priests and their wives. And when he passed
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away, Cardinal Bergoglio was very close friends with her. And he would call her up, I believe it was
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every Sunday. So much so that when he got elected Pope, the media went to her to ask her what she
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thought. And one of the first things she said was she thought the Pope would open the way for married
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clergy and their wives. And so that's, that was very disturbing seeing that years ago, but it's coming
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sort of to fruition now, or kind of prophecy, if you will. So this is very concerning indeed. And there is,
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and there's been a lot of talk about this new change that's going to come now, being able to bring back
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in a lot of the priests who just left the priests who decided to get married themselves.
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That's a, that's a very serious, very serious issue that you raised there. And so I should,
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the question of priests, because many, you may have heard yourself, John Henry, someone say, but what,
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wasn't it the early practice in the East that men were allowed to be married and something the church
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should approve from way back? Well, not if you study it closely, no. In the, in the East, universally in
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the church, this was the early practice from the apostles. There are always men who sinned and abuses,
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but this was the, this was always what was seen as essential. Well, in the, in the 690, there was a
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council of Trullo under the Emperor Justinian II, very close to Constantinople. This council took place
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in the East in the East, a local council, and those bishops gathered, made decrees, which the pope at the
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time immediately rejected, and successive popes rejected. The canon's which offered, really, what was
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a huge mistake, a change in the practice of clerical continence, not because of a shortage of priests.
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Bishop Athanasius Schneider points this out in a recent article in Faithful Insight from September,
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where he speaks. Let me just quote Bishop Schneider's words. He says, priestly marriage,
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this practice was legalized in the Eastern Church in the 7th century, not because of a lack of priests.
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At the time, there was an overabundance of priests, especially in Constantinople. It was rather done
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out of a leniency toward human weakness, because those who in the Episcopal and priestly office
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had deviated and departed from the apostolic rule of life. It was at the time a deviancy and
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disloyalty toward the demanding imitation of Christ, which the apostles lived out in their complete
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sexual continence from the moment of their being called unto death. And it's very interesting if you
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look at how even them, when they were breaking with this tradition, how they tried to apply it.
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They said, yes, absolutely. Any priest, there's this link between celebrating the sacred mysteries
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of the altar and continence. So what we'll do, since at that time priests were often only celebrating
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once a week, is they said, you can make use of your marital rites with your wife other times,
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but before you celebrate the sacraments, you have to be abstinent for some period of time before.
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So even there, when they were breaking with the tradition, they still sensed this important link
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that was there. But that was rejected by the church. And then centuries later, after the very
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sad break with the East, when the church was negotiating and trying to find a way for some
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of them wanting reconciliation and union, the church made a decision in some centuries to permit
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in exceptional circumstances men to keep using the married rites. The point of decision, you could
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argue, was that really a wise decision or not? Because, and I really would like our readers to
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understand, or listeners to understand the enormous difference that comes about from celibacy, from
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perpetual continence. St. Paul speaks very strongly to this point about the unmarried man being free to
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be given to the Lord. And if you consider from what, I know you yourself, John Henry, are married. If you
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went home after this time in Rome and said to your wife, honey, I have great news. I don't want to concern
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you, but a month from now, I'm going to also get married to Susie. I'll be married to her as well. And
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don't worry, it's not going to change in the slightest. My wholehearted devotion to you, you're
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going to have a hundred percent of my heart and attention and affection. It won't change a thing.
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I think she would probably say, you are crazy. Probably worse than that. Probably worse than that.
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Okay, well, good for your wife. Probably worse. But she would say, you're crazy. A man can only give
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his heart to one spouse on this earth. And even has a hard time doing that, perhaps. But only to one spouse
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can he give himself wholly. And so if that's true for any spouse, well, that's just the nature of a
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man's heart. And so when a man makes the sacrifice to say, I'm giving up any earthly spouse to give
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all that I could have given just to the Lord, we know in an earthly marriage, spouses have a major
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impact on each other and influence in all kinds of ways who you become and who you are. Well, take that
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with the Lord who promised us a hundredfold for whatever you've sacrificed for him. So when it's well
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lived, celibacy produces a hundredfold effect for good in the priest's life. And the reason perhaps
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many of our viewers, depending on where they are, may not have good examples of that. They may have
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great examples of that. There's wonderful holy priests on the earth who I really admire. But
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there have been many sad cases. Many priests, the formation has been very poor the last few decades,
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to speak, frankly. Priests used to have a tremendous formation and training to be soldiers for the
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spiritual battle. The training in this wholehearted, the gift of themselves to the Lord included
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obviously the holy sacrifice of the mass offered every day, the divine office prayed reverently,
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the daily rosary, practices of fasting and penance that were just common for every priest,
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the annual silent retreat, well-lived intense retreat of five days a year, daily time of meditation
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or holy hour, spiritual reading. They had all these things, dressing as a priest,
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helping you in your consecration, all these helps. Many priests were never offered or not offered fully
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in the formation for their priesthood. And so that's one reason they themselves have been robbed
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in many cases of many of the graces that would be offered. So I mentioned I may have gotten off
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track for the question you wanted me to answer. I think that's amazing because I think that is
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an opportunity for those who are practicing, perhaps unknowingly, in a way they really shouldn't be
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according to the will of God. You know, if you're already ordained a deacon or whatnot,
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and you're able to embrace celibacy with the permission of your wife, it would be awesome to do.
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And I think those helps that you just mentioned, that you just, I was going to ask you that,
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like, how do you get there? Because you mentioned you like girls and you liked girls and the bishop
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was like, yeah, you're supposed to. And, but those, if you don't mind running through them again,
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that's so important. I think it's so key. And I think perhaps this could be an opening for deacons
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who want to fully give themselves to the ministry to be able to do that. Yes, with permission of their
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wives, because it should have been done beforehand, but wasn't. I think that would be incredible. But
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it's also for those married men who might think of giving themselves to the priesthood with the
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permission of their wives. One of the big questions would be, how do I do that?
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Sure. And I should preface this by saying, I have tremendous esteem and respect for the priests who've
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come into the church recently who are married. They're often very brave, courageous men who left very
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difficult position, faced rejection by their family and friends to become Catholics, and who
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often are very firmly convinced of the teaching of the church on the doctrine of the faith and
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preach it courageously in many cases. And I should also say from a canonical perspective that they,
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because they were, they and their wives were not, were not asked to make this commitment when they
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were ordained, as Edward Peters argued as a canonist, they're in a situation where it doesn't seem we
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could oblige them to take this step. But if what you're speaking of, if they were to freely do this,
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which couples throughout history for different reasons have decided to do, yes, the tremendous
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helps of the church. So to run through those again, for, and this used to be standard for any, any priest,
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whatever, however busy you were, these were just part of being a priest you did every day.
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Specifically, sort of geared to assisting to maintain celibacy.
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Yeah, well, they were geared towards strengthening your soul with the grace of Christ to be an
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alter Christus. The priest is called to, in the midst of his, his human frailty and personality,
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through the grace of Christ, to let anyone who encounters him encounter the very person of Jesus
00:25:11.460
Christ, especially in the sacraments. But anytime, I mean, you'd be, I'll be walking down the street,
00:25:16.600
someone may get off the bus and say, Father, can you hear my confession? Or can you come to our
00:25:19.840
house? And what they're looking for is to encounter the person of Jesus Christ in his teachings,
00:25:25.000
in his charity, in his self-sacrifice, which I do poorly, but that's what they're looking to
00:25:29.560
encounter. And there's a very particular grace available. And so for that, all these different
00:25:34.520
helps are meant to increase the grace of Christ in your soul, so you can live out heroically,
00:25:39.480
one aspect of which was, was a perpetual continence. So those basic helps were essentially a very strong
00:25:46.080
prayer life and regular practices of sacrifice. And the, the fundamental ones would be offering the
00:25:52.640
holy sacrifice in a reverent way, especially the, the traditional liturgy does such a beautiful job
00:25:57.880
for the priest himself of strengthening your, your prayer life, taking time of Thanksgiving after
00:26:03.140
the mass to pray and meditate. The divine office, which up until a few decades ago was, was longer
00:26:08.980
than what it is for most priests now, and some priests still choose to pray it, had eight offices
00:26:13.220
during the day and very beautiful, helpful prayers. The daily rosary was a given. Going to confession at
00:26:20.640
least once every two weeks was just standard. Many priests chose to go once a week. I myself get together
00:26:26.540
with a great brother priest, and we hear each other's confessions every week, and it's, it's a
00:26:30.560
friend, great help for your priesthood. The, either a daily time, a daily time of meditation, whether
00:26:36.840
in the form of a holy hour, spiritual reading, there were different ways of doing that.
00:26:42.200
Annual retreat of, a serious retreat of five days with, surrounded by silence, daily regular
00:26:49.540
practices at least once a week of, of sacrifices, fasting, or other, other penances that were
00:26:54.980
available to any priest in a good, balanced way that were very helpful. Dressing as a
00:27:00.720
priest is a help, first of all, for yourself, a constant reminder of your vocation as, as
00:27:06.100
being consecrated to God. These and other helps were available, and they make such an enormous
00:27:12.140
difference. When I'm speaking to young men about a vocation to the priesthood, say men
00:27:15.900
who are in their 20s or teenagers, they say, look, both of us, if you're not married right
00:27:19.240
now, both of us at this state in our life, we're both supposed to live, um, incontinence.
00:27:24.420
You and I are supposed to live it. Who has the easier job? You, who's a teenager, in the
00:27:29.220
midst of all the stuff you encounter every day, or as a, as a young adult in your university
00:27:33.040
environment or workplace, and all you're dealing with, and with the limited time you maybe have
00:27:36.980
with your job for prayer, or myself, who has all of this time of prayer during the day,
00:27:40.980
I'm living in a consecrated environment of a rectory, I have a supportive brother priest.
00:27:45.200
I have a hundred times more helps, because young men are often afraid, well, it's not
00:27:50.880
easy to, to be celibate in their situation in today's world, which, no, it's not easy,
00:27:55.820
um, and it's always a sacrifice and challenge, but it is, uh, I would say much, much easier,
00:28:01.940
where you have tremendous, enormous helps for this as a priest, and so I would say to any
00:28:06.340
young man who might be listening to this, do not be afraid of taking that leap. You have
00:28:10.680
incredible helps that the church will offer you if you choose to put them into practice,
00:28:14.680
and if you choose a, a good place for formation as you're being formed as a priest.
00:28:18.720
Yeah. I, I'm, I'm so encouraged that there's actually a way forward, a sort of change, not
00:28:25.700
really a change, but harking back to the beginning of the church in a legitimate way, which allows
00:28:32.420
married men, if needed, the opportunity with the permission of their wives to practice continence,
00:28:39.200
therefore, if they're so chosen to enter the priesthood. That's great, and it's, it's a, it's
00:28:44.920
a way forward, I, a lot of people like to talk about compromise. Usually in, in the church,
00:28:50.920
you can't compromise with sin, but this is not sin, and this is a way, if you want something
00:28:56.120
new, sort of, so to speak, um, and God knows, maybe there will be people in the Amazon or wherever
00:29:02.800
who are married, who will, men who will give themselves up for this. God willing, let's
00:29:08.200
find out, but, uh, it was great talking to you, Father, about this. Thank you for being
00:29:13.240
Thank you for being with you, John Henry. Thank you for all the great work that LifeSize
00:29:20.740
God bless you all, and we'll see you next time.
00:29:22.420
God bless you all, and we'll see you next time.