The John-Henry Westen Show - Traditional Latin Mass is like an Easter egg hunt that lasts a lifetime

00:00:00.000 Even in the Middle Ages, when people were illiterate, they were educated in all kinds of ways.

00:00:04.740 If you go into a medieval church, it is the Bible in stone and glass. 0.94

00:00:17.340 Hello, my friends. It gives me great pleasure to introduce you to someone who I esteem very much.

00:00:23.200 His name is Dr. Peter Kwasniewski. Many of you will know him already because of his defense of the traditional Latin mass.

00:00:31.480 He's been doing that for a long, long time, and he's got a new book out.

00:00:35.720 The book is called Turned Around, Replying to the Most Common Objections Against the Traditional Latin Mass.

00:00:42.240 It's from Tan Books, and you can get it at Tan Books.

00:00:45.200 If you're outside of the United States, you can also pick it up on Amazon.

00:00:48.200 But this is going to be a good one because Peter is a man of great intellect, but he's also one who has the humility to speak to the common people.

00:00:59.740 He actually takes the great learning that he's achieved by hard study and can bring out the truth in simple ways for just us common folks.

00:01:08.920 And so I asked him before the show if I could ask him the hard, hard questions, the ones that probably a lot of people think about, but they don't ask.

00:01:18.520 Like about, oh, those traditional priests, those Latin mass guys, aren't they the ones who are, isn't the abuse crisis much more common among them?

00:01:27.940 Or what's with all the lace and the frills?

00:01:31.200 And what do they have against women?

00:01:33.580 They're not allowed to read in those masses?

00:01:35.480 I mean, come on, all those questions and many more will be answered right now.

00:01:41.020 Stay tuned to this episode of the John Henry Weston Show.

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00:02:12.400 Thank you for your support, and may God bless you.

00:02:15.840 Peter, thank you so much for joining us.

00:02:17.680 Thank you, John Henry.

00:02:18.480 Always a pleasure to talk to you.

00:02:20.260 Let's begin, as we always do, with the sign of the cross.

00:02:22.600 In the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost.

00:02:27.240 Amen.

00:02:27.580 So, Peter, I'm very glad you did this book.

00:02:32.580 This is one that I think a lot of people have been waiting for.

00:02:36.020 It's one that will hopefully give to people what they need, because there are a lot of questions.

00:02:43.300 And we're going to start right in, because I've got a bunch of them for you.

00:02:45.900 I went and talked to a bunch of people who have things that they find problem with in Latin mass.

00:02:53.720 And I thought, oh, there's no better person to speak to than Dr. Peter Gozneski.

00:02:58.720 I feel like I'm in the batter's box, you know, ready to pitch these fastballs.

00:03:04.220 Okay, good.

00:03:04.900 Indeed.

00:03:05.460 So, here we go.

00:03:06.500 So, first of all, it's very simple.

00:03:09.880 Why Latin when nobody understands it, for the most part?

00:03:14.060 I'm going to give a nutshell answer to that question.

00:03:16.460 The nutshell answer is that every Christian church, every apostolic rite in Christianity,

00:03:23.560 East and West, has developed over the course of centuries what you could call a sacred language.

00:03:28.780 That is, language used at a lofty, transcendent level that is actually difficult for people to understand.

00:03:36.660 Or it can be difficult.

00:03:37.840 Of course, there are people who have no difficulty with these languages.

00:03:40.360 But generally speaking, when we approach God, when we approach, we come into the presence of God,

00:03:45.540 we don't simply use the language of the marketplace or the language of the kitchen.

00:03:50.140 We use this special level or register or type of language that's called sacred.

00:03:56.800 And you see that with the Greek Orthodox Church.

00:03:59.400 You know, 2,000 years ago, everybody was speaking Koine Greek.

00:04:02.960 But the Greek Orthodox Church today still uses ancient Koine Greek when modern Greek is a quite different language.

00:04:09.200 Similarly, the Russian Orthodox, they use Church Slavonic, which can, you know, is similar to other Slavic languages.

00:04:14.900 But it definitely is a foreign register now.

00:04:18.340 It's not, it's like, it would be like for us, you know, maybe like Chaucer's English or something, right?

00:04:23.360 Something that's difficult.

00:04:24.780 Even the English with the Book of Common Prayer, a lot of people think, oh, Cranmer, you know, used the English of the day.

00:04:31.460 No, he didn't.

00:04:32.380 He used a very special register that very few people, nobody spoke the way the Book of Common Prayer speaks.

00:04:40.020 And now, 400 years later, it's even more the case that that has a special sound to it.

00:04:45.140 In the Western Church, right, Latin came in early on, not because it was the common language, that's the big myth,

00:04:52.780 but because it was the language of the educated, the scholars, the aristocrats, the poets, and also of the priests, the ancient pagan priests.

00:05:02.000 So it had this kind of numinous and divine resonance to it.

00:05:06.080 And when you look at the Latin liturgy, it's written in, not in everyday Latin, we know what that looked like, because we have records of it, but in this special register.

00:05:14.980 So I think there's a phenomenon you can see, not just in Christianity, but in all religions, in Islam, in Hinduism, in Buddhism, and Judaism, of course, to use a special language when we approach God in worship.

00:05:27.380 That makes sense in terms of anthropology, in terms of psychology, because it puts us in a certain frame of mind.

00:05:33.720 When we're approaching God, we're approaching the infinite and the eternal one.

00:05:37.160 We're not just, you know, approaching a chum and we're going to have a beer together, right?

00:05:41.660 So I think it's very helpful for us when we go into that domain.

00:05:45.060 You know, when you go into a church and you hear the priest say,

00:05:48.260 in nomine Patris et Filii et Spiritus Sancti, Amen, intro ebo ad altari dei,

00:05:52.700 suddenly it's like, oh, we've just dived into the deep end of the pool.

00:05:57.880 Now we're praying.

00:05:58.660 Now we're in a different domain than we were outside the church.

00:06:02.240 You know, profane, the word profane means beyond the threshold of the temple.

00:06:06.260 So what's outside the temple, we enter the temple, now we're in a sacred domain.

00:06:10.140 But of course, people can follow the meaning of these prayers.

00:06:14.120 You know, that's why we have hand missiles or handouts or the red booklet that you see all over the place.

00:06:19.560 It's not difficult to know if you want to know what's being prayed.

00:06:23.180 It's not like the church is saying, you're forbidden to know what's being prayed.

00:06:26.520 But when the priest approaches God, he is using this appropriate sacred language.

00:06:34.240 And that is helpful for all of us, too, to enter into the spirit of worship and adoration.

00:06:38.860 So I get it with regard to the missile.

00:06:41.300 We have the missile.

00:06:42.160 We can follow along the prayers.

00:06:44.080 But I think there's a lot of people who would love to hear it.

00:06:49.000 And at least in the Novus Ordo celebrations have grown accustomed to hearing the prayers that the priest is praying

00:06:56.420 and kind of making them their own and praying along with them.

00:07:01.040 So they're not doing reading.

00:07:01.940 And besides which, during a lot of the time when the Latin Mass was out there for everybody and it was the only Mass, most people didn't read.

00:07:10.120 So how could they follow along?

00:07:12.600 So what do you answer to those who want to hear it and pray along with it but just can't?

00:07:17.540 I mean, it's a complicated question because the way that the liturgical tradition in the West and in the East developed is that they used a multitude of languages,

00:07:27.360 not just the spoken language, but they used the language of architecture, iconography, stained glass windows, statues, music.

00:07:35.260 There are so many different languages, and even some of these are nonverbal languages like gestures, bows, prostrations, signs of the cross.

00:07:45.200 The vestments are themselves a kind of language.

00:07:47.740 You know, certainly the music has words, but it also moves us simply because of the music.

00:07:52.640 And so the church communicated with all of these verbal and nonverbal languages,

00:07:57.360 and all of them together are meant to form us over time, really over a whole lifetime, in understanding what we're doing.

00:08:05.260 So it's not, I think part of the problem here is that there's been an assumption for some decades that the only way to understand,

00:08:13.020 or the best way to understand, is to have something delivered to you on a plate, so to speak, in your common language,

00:08:18.880 that's instantly comprehensible and digestible by you.

00:08:22.360 And when you look at the Christian tradition, actually, I think that the reason that was avoided

00:08:26.860 was that it would give you too superficial a notion of what you're doing and the one you're dealing with.

00:08:33.040 There is this sense of mystery.

00:08:35.040 I really want to come back to this, this deep sense of mystery that you find in whether you go to a Latin Mass or a Byzantine liturgy,

00:08:43.640 and they're quite different in character, but they're very powerful at evoking this sense of entering into the mystery, right?

00:08:51.420 And when we simplify and vernacularize and turn the priest towards the people,

00:08:57.100 it becomes kind of a didactic preaching exercise, almost like a meeting where we're just going to talk about God.

00:09:03.500 But that's not the point of worship.

00:09:04.920 We can talk about God all the time, everywhere else.

00:09:07.300 But what about worshiping God?

00:09:08.940 What about humbling ourselves in his almighty, awesome presence?

00:09:13.180 What about being silent before God?

00:09:15.420 You know, we need that more than ever, I would say.

00:09:18.760 And so the silence in the Latin Mass, right?

00:09:20.980 A lot of the time the priest is praying silently.

00:09:22.900 You can't even hear what he's saying, whether it's in Latin or some other language.

00:09:25.600 It doesn't even matter because you can't hear it.

00:09:27.780 But that silence is a reminder to us that I could make this brief comparison.

00:09:32.240 In the Eastern churches, they have what's called an iconostasis.

00:09:35.100 So a big screen of icons that separates the sanctuary from the congregation in the nave.

00:09:41.400 And when the priest enters behind that iconostasis, you can't see him at all.

00:09:45.780 And the holy sacrifice is offered invisibly.

00:09:48.940 Well, in the West, we can see the priest at the altar.

00:09:51.580 We don't have the iconostasis.

00:09:53.220 But we have what I call a sonic iconostasis.

00:09:56.240 We have Latin and silence and Gregorian chant,

00:10:00.460 which act as a kind of veil that separates us in a way from the mystery,

00:10:06.420 but also entices us and draws us into the mystery, right?

00:10:11.400 Give us the way we are to be at Mass.

00:10:15.100 Because let's say for your typical person, they're not going to understand the Latin.

00:10:21.600 They're also, unless they're good at it, flipping the pages and finding out where we are,

00:10:26.380 they're not necessarily going to do that either.

00:10:28.120 And it's kind of distracting to have this go on and look back and so on.

00:10:31.580 So for that kind of person, which is a lot of people, what is their disposition at Mass?

00:10:39.340 What should they be thinking?

00:10:40.800 What should they be doing?

00:10:42.040 They're going to be there for over an hour.

00:10:43.780 Even on a regular daily low Mass or whatever they call it, it's going to be 45 minutes.

00:10:49.740 What are they doing for all that time?

00:10:51.460 Well, you know, one bit of practical advice that I always give to people is,

00:10:56.780 you know, if you're going to a low Mass and with a priest who's very conversant with it,

00:11:02.300 let's say a fraternity of St. Peter priest, it might be 35 minutes.

00:11:05.540 With another priest, 45 minutes.

00:11:07.680 It shouldn't really be much longer than that.

00:11:09.540 But I say to people, treat it like a holy hour.

00:11:12.160 Treat it as if you're going to a holy hour and you're going to adore the Blessed Sacrament.

00:11:16.520 Now, obviously, there's more that you can say.

00:11:18.040 And as time goes on, you become more familiar.

00:11:20.220 You can enter more deeply into the spirit of the liturgy and into the texts.

00:11:23.780 Make those prayers your own.

00:11:25.220 But at least initially, relinquish the desire to be involved actively, vocally.

00:11:31.840 You know, relinquish that.

00:11:33.160 Let it go.

00:11:34.200 And let the mysterious beauty of this liturgy, it is very beautiful just to watch the motions of the priest

00:11:40.880 and to see how he is offering the sacrifice.

00:11:44.820 I find it deeply moving.

00:11:46.020 I can just be there at a low mass and watch.

00:11:50.060 And my spirit is raised up to God, right?

00:11:52.300 It's about prayer.

00:11:54.020 The liturgy should make us pray.

00:11:55.780 It's not primarily about educating us and telling us what we're supposed to know,

00:12:00.160 catechizing us or empowering us for mission or all these sorts of things that people say.

00:12:04.540 It's about raising our minds and hearts to God.

00:12:07.200 If it accomplishes that, then it's accomplished the primary work of the sacred liturgy.

00:12:11.240 But I would say, I'd push back just a little bit and say, it's actually not that difficult to become familiar with what's going on at the Latin Mass.

00:12:20.160 It, unlike the Novus Ordo, which has a gazillion options, the priest can do it this way or that way.

00:12:25.340 He can face the people or face East. 0.88

00:12:26.880 He can do it in English or Latin.

00:12:28.540 He can have modern music or ancient sacred music.

00:12:31.220 I mean, he can use one of four or eight or twelve Eucharistic prayers.

00:12:35.420 No, in the Latin Mass, it's always the same thing.

00:12:38.160 You know exactly what you're going to get from beginning to end.

00:12:40.140 It has to be a certain way.

00:12:41.920 Everything is scripted down to the nth detail.

00:12:44.700 And all of that is in your little red booklet or in your missal.

00:12:48.820 So over time, you recognize, okay, the priest is always going to do this.

00:12:52.580 He's always going to be there.

00:12:53.500 He's moving over here.

00:12:54.460 He's reading this prayer.

00:12:55.480 He's reading this.

00:12:56.260 I mean, it's like a ballet.

00:12:58.680 It's like a sacred dance, you know, and you, and when you, you know, if you become familiar

00:13:03.500 with Tchaikovsky's, you know, Nutcracker, then you know what to expect.

00:13:07.640 You're not surprised every time by something different.

00:13:10.100 So I think the same kind of thing happens with the Latin Mass.

00:13:13.340 You, you know, over time, you do become familiar with the Gloria and the Credo and the Sanctus.

00:13:17.900 You hear them again and again.

00:13:19.320 So I don't think it's as difficult to get into it.

00:13:22.420 People just need to relax, I would say, a bit and just let themselves go with the flow

00:13:28.000 of the liturgy.

00:13:29.220 I know that sounds very modern, you know, go with the flow, but that's, that's, that's

00:13:32.660 what we're talking about here, I think.

00:13:34.560 So one of the things particularly of concern to some people is the readings.

00:13:38.460 People say, wait a minute, why are we doing the readings in Latin?

00:13:41.920 Why not that in English?

00:13:43.080 Because there's lots of people who said for a long time, oh, I never heard the, the Bible

00:13:47.900 read at all because I was all in Latin.

00:13:50.340 I didn't understand anything.

00:13:51.360 So, you know, we have among Catholics, this sort of famous thing about biblical illiteracy. 0.99

00:13:57.620 Why are the readings in Latin?

00:14:00.200 Yes.

00:14:01.060 Great question.

00:14:02.380 So there's, I think we have to immediately separate a modern mythology from the actual

00:14:09.600 state of affairs.

00:14:10.600 So, you know, there's these, there are these things called black legends, you know, that

00:14:13.860 Protestants, historians, especially for many centuries, they promoted certain lies in order

00:14:19.580 to promote their own positions.

00:14:21.240 And one of the lies was that Catholics were utterly biblically illiterate.

00:14:24.400 That's actually not true.

00:14:25.480 It's not factually true.

00:14:26.640 The reason it's not true is, is harks back to something I said earlier, namely that even

00:14:31.380 in the middle ages, when people were illiterate, they were educated in all kinds of ways.

00:14:35.880 If you go into a medieval church, it is the Bible in stone and glass all over the place.

00:14:41.340 And they were catechized by that without having to be constantly lectured at.

00:14:45.500 They were catechized.

00:14:46.220 And we have evidence, you know, like Eamon Duffy, the English historian, he's a bit of

00:14:50.480 a liberal himself, but he's an excellent historian.

00:14:52.620 And when he talks about medieval Catholicism, he says it was saturated with the Bible.

00:14:56.840 Everybody knew the stories of the Bible.

00:14:58.980 They also had these mystery plays that went on year after year after year, retelling in

00:15:03.560 the common language outside of the church as a kind of entertainment, you know, all the

00:15:07.380 stories of scripture.

00:15:08.280 That's how people were entertained.

00:15:09.440 They didn't watch TV, right?

00:15:10.680 They listened to the stories of scripture.

00:15:12.420 So there was a huge amount of biblical literacy.

00:15:14.400 I think there's a lot of evidence that biblical literacy now, even after 55 years of a vernacular,

00:15:21.460 much larger lectionary, is at an all-time low.

00:15:24.780 People don't know the stories of scripture.

00:15:26.460 If you talk to your average Catholic about different characters in the Old Testament or

00:15:29.980 even different characters in the New Testament, they hardly even know what you're talking about.

00:15:33.420 So I think it, you know, having a lectionary in the vernacular is not the silver bullet.

00:15:38.400 It's not.

00:15:38.900 But I think what's more important is preaching.

00:15:42.840 If there's good preaching, good catechesis, which should happen outside of Mass, good sacred

00:15:47.880 art, you know, and encourage people to do Lectio Divina, right?

00:15:51.360 To pray with scripture.

00:15:52.860 This is the Christian tradition developed all these different ways to educate people about

00:15:57.380 the Word of God.

00:15:58.340 And the Mass wasn't meant to be the only vehicle by which that happened, right?

00:16:03.140 So that's one answer.

00:16:04.680 The other answer is, you know, the old lectionary, it's a one-year annual cycle, which is what

00:16:09.520 you find in every single apostolic Christian rite until 55 years ago.

00:16:13.620 Everybody always just had a one-year cycle.

00:16:15.600 That's still the case in the Eastern churches.

00:16:18.440 And that one-year cycle, the idea wasn't to read as much of the Bible as possible, but

00:16:23.620 it was to read the passages that are most helpful to prepare people for worshiping the

00:16:29.480 Lord and receiving Him in Holy Communion.

00:16:31.220 So they were chosen, the New Testament passages were chosen to promote sound morality, which

00:16:38.220 is what is a precondition to receiving communion, and then to increase your admiration for Christ

00:16:43.080 as God.

00:16:44.120 So if you look at that one-year cycle, they're very beautifully selected passages that have

00:16:48.840 that aim.

00:16:50.180 And I don't think they're remote from the people because, A, you know, anytime you go

00:16:55.240 to a Latin Mass, practically anytime, certainly on Sundays, there's a handout with those readings.

00:16:59.780 You can just read them.

00:17:01.220 They're not that long.

00:17:02.420 But also, the priest, usually from the pulpit before his homily, reads the readings in English

00:17:08.260 or in whatever vernacular might be the case.

00:17:11.220 So, you know, at our parish, the priest before his homily, he just reads the epistle and the

00:17:15.300 gospel, and then he goes into his homily.

00:17:17.500 So I actually benefit from that twice because I'm reading my missal, and I see the reading

00:17:22.760 once when it's being chanted in Latin.

00:17:24.420 And I get something from that because, I mean, I do know some Latin, but I do get something

00:17:29.460 from the first pass, and then I hear it again from the pulpit.

00:17:33.120 So it's like, you know, a twofer, right?

00:17:35.860 In that sense, I don't really see that this is a big issue.

00:17:39.800 That's actually a really good answer because the idea of getting it twice is really neat.

00:17:44.060 But one of the critics I heard was like, but why Latin in the first place?

00:17:50.100 God doesn't need to hear the reading.

00:17:53.260 We do.

00:17:54.520 Why that?

00:17:55.460 So I think, again, part of the error that's crept in in our times is, and I think it's

00:18:02.840 fundamentally a Protestant view, that the reading of scripture at the liturgy is didactic.

00:18:08.320 Its primary function, actually, its exclusive function, according to some people, is to educate

00:18:13.520 the people.

00:18:14.240 So essentially, for the liturgy of the word, the view seems to be that the congregation

00:18:18.880 is like a classroom, and the priest becomes a preacher-teacher, and he reads to them, and

00:18:24.380 they get educated, and he explains it in the homily.

00:18:26.600 That's the concept.

00:18:28.560 Historically, that's not the way that this part of the liturgy was thought of.

00:18:33.140 It was thought of as, yes, having an instructive aspect, for sure.

00:18:37.520 It certainly would.

00:18:38.600 If you hear the word of God, it's going to have an instructive aspect.

00:18:40.760 But it was also seen as an act of worship.

00:18:43.460 How?

00:18:44.200 Because there are moments in scripture, actually quite a few moments, when some prophet or mediator

00:18:50.860 will go before God and remind him of his own words and say, this is what you told us.

00:18:56.940 This is what you promised us.

00:18:58.400 Please be faithful to this.

00:19:00.040 Please accomplish this in our midst.

00:19:01.680 And in fact, when the readings are chanted at the Latin Mass, the epistle is chanted facing

00:19:07.940 eastwards, which is a posture of worship, and the gospel is chanted northwards, which

00:19:14.240 is to symbolize the north in scripture symbolizes the pagan, unconverted world.

00:19:18.980 So it's a sign that the gospel is being preached to the unconverted world, but also including 0.98

00:19:23.360 implicitly us to the extent that we're not yet converted.

00:19:25.980 But in both cases, the reading isn't directed towards us.

00:19:29.980 And what that does is it subtly reminds us that the word of God is greater than this community.

00:19:34.520 It's not just for us.

00:19:36.160 It's also when we lift it up to God, it's a homage that we pay to God.

00:19:40.300 We actually are thanking and praising him for his revelation in our midst.

00:19:46.120 And we're also being reminded that it has an evangelical and missionary aspect as well.

00:19:51.680 So I think, I mean, there's a lot more that can be said about this.

00:19:53.920 It's actually a pretty intricate subject, but I just, just to put it very pithily, reading

00:19:58.540 the word of God at Mass has a double function.

00:20:01.120 It's latrudic, having to do with worship, and it's didactic, having to do with instruction.

00:20:06.180 It has both of those aspects.

00:20:07.540 And if you look at how historical liturgies work, they bring both of those aspects out.

00:20:12.900 Now, it's true.

00:20:13.640 I think the Latin Mass brings out the latrudic, the worship side, really strongly. 0.94

00:20:18.480 That's true.

00:20:19.220 But again, I like to say to people, we need that now more than ever, because we are anthropocentric.

00:20:25.240 We're humanistic.

00:20:26.500 We dumb things down.

00:20:27.960 We want God to be on our level.

00:20:29.380 We want him to act by our terms.

00:20:30.580 I think it's good for us to push, to bend the stick in the opposite direction, right?

00:20:34.960 And be reminded that this word that we're reading isn't like any other word.

00:20:38.940 This is a divine word.

00:20:41.260 Okay.

00:20:41.520 What about the hymns in the Mass?

00:20:43.640 Why are they in Latin?

00:20:44.740 And isn't the hymns something that the people are doing now?

00:20:48.300 The Mass is actually going on while we're singing the hymns.

00:20:51.620 Why can't they be in English?

00:20:53.160 You know, I think we'd have to make the question a little more precise.

00:20:56.160 So the Latin Mass doesn't really have hymns in the same way.

00:21:00.800 I mean, the whole question of sacred music, that could be a whole separate conversation.

00:21:04.520 Especially for you.

00:21:05.300 Um, but, but, you know, there was something called in the, you know, in earlier in the

00:21:10.740 20th century, this idea, this, this phrase was coined the for him sandwich, you know,

00:21:15.820 I think it's a funny expression, but the for him sandwich, the entrance him, the offertory

00:21:21.380 him, the communion him and the closing or recessional him.

00:21:24.740 Okay.

00:21:24.900 That's the for him sandwich that came in, that came in before the second Vatican council

00:21:29.620 that was being done at low masses where the priest was doing his prayers in Latin,

00:21:34.180 but the people were permitted by the, by the Vatican to sing in the vernacular at these

00:21:39.180 four moments in the Mass.

00:21:40.700 That was because the liturgical movement was already kind of cranking its gears and saying,

00:21:45.320 we need to give the people something to do.

00:21:47.360 They can't just be there praying.

00:21:49.780 They have to do something.

00:21:50.960 They have to say something.

00:21:51.860 They have to sing.

00:21:52.760 And so that's how the for him sandwich came in.

00:21:55.560 But historically speaking, you know, hymns, the only real hymns in the Latin Mass are the

00:22:01.240 Gloria and the Sanctus, right?

00:22:03.760 And these, these can be sung by the people if they're sung in chant, you know, the church

00:22:08.360 also has heavily promoted, even at Vatican too, that everyone should sing these chants

00:22:13.280 together.

00:22:14.400 And in fact, you know, you find that, you know, my parish, the Fraternity of St. Peter

00:22:18.680 Parish, and I know this is common, that everybody at the High Mass does sing the Kyrie, the Gloria,

00:22:24.620 the Sanctus, the Agnus Dei, the Responses, et cum Spiritu Tuo.

00:22:28.640 They sing all those parts.

00:22:29.780 So the people are not just stone silent.

00:22:32.260 They can actually participate actively in that way.

00:22:35.400 My main point here would be to say, you know, the Latin repertoire that we have, the chants,

00:22:42.840 the polyphony, this is an exquisite and exceptional, exceptionally beautiful, exceptionally meaningful

00:22:50.460 and profound repertoire.

00:22:53.060 And it's good for people to be immersed in that and to pick it up slowly, you know, again,

00:22:57.780 to resist the city of instant, immediate comprehension as the ideal.

00:23:01.400 That's not the ideal.

00:23:02.860 I mean, in my life, I've been going to the Latin Mass for years and years.

00:23:06.420 I'm still learning new things.

00:23:07.740 I'm still, I'm making discoveries.

00:23:09.380 It's, it's like a perpetual Easter egg hunt, you know, where, where you, you're always finding

00:23:13.560 new little treasures around that you didn't know existed before.

00:23:16.360 How wonderful is it to enter into something that's so vast and so great that you're going

00:23:21.900 to be discovering it all your life, you know, and always seeing new aspects of it.

00:23:25.920 That I think is marvelous.

00:23:27.080 And we need that.

00:23:28.400 The Easter egg hunt during the Mass.

00:23:29.920 That's, that's just really neat.

00:23:31.300 So there's a number of other controversial topics with the Latin Mass.

00:23:37.320 One of them is about women.

00:23:40.160 So one of the things you'll notice right away at an extraordinary form of the Mass or the

00:23:47.840 traditional Latin Mass, there's no women. 1.00

00:23:50.960 There's no women doing extraordinary minister of Holy Communion duties. 1.00

00:23:55.760 By the way, there's no lay men either, but that has been sort of very heavily focused upon

00:24:02.100 in the Novus Ordo.

00:24:02.860 In fact, Pope Francis just made that a sort of, um, not quite sine qua non, but he made

00:24:09.040 the, uh, women, um, acolytes, uh, so that, you know, this is sort of an established part

00:24:16.380 of, uh, the new Mass now.

00:24:18.600 And yet in the traditional Latin Mass, that's completely absent.

00:24:23.540 Yeah.

00:24:23.740 Well, I mean, I, I think, you know, look, I'm just going to be really blunt here and say

00:24:26.660 to people, you know, for nearly 2000 years, that was not the Christian tradition.

00:24:30.880 It wasn't anywhere in East or West.

00:24:34.100 I always bring up the East because I think it's important to breathe with both lungs

00:24:37.200 as, as John Paul II said.

00:24:39.440 Uh, and because everybody admits that the ancient, that the Eastern churches are deeply rooted

00:24:44.400 in antiquity and that they have preserved their traditions very, very well.

00:24:48.580 Now I will, I will say some of the Eastern churches here and there, you can see liberalism

00:24:54.140 creeping into and feminism. 0.99

00:24:55.840 So they're having some of the same difficulties that they just, everything happens slower in

00:24:59.540 the Eastern churches.

00:25:00.240 So there, there are a few decades behind us, but they're going to be facing, and they are

00:25:03.640 facing these same issues.

00:25:04.740 But my point is for almost 2000 years, the understanding of all ministry in the sanctuary

00:25:11.140 of the church is that it's all a participation in and a reflection of the high priesthood of

00:25:16.380 Jesus Christ.

00:25:17.360 That's the basic traditional understanding.

00:25:19.780 And why this, why do I say the sanctuary?

00:25:21.840 Well, there's in every Christian church, and this goes right back to all the way to the

00:25:25.540 beginning of, of the building of churches.

00:25:27.760 There's always a separation between the nave and the sanctuary.

00:25:31.200 The nave of the church, which is the larger part where all of the people sit or stand or

00:25:35.520 kneel, that part represents this world.

00:25:38.640 That's what the nave represents.

00:25:39.740 And the word nave means ship.

00:25:41.540 And we're all in the bark of Peter, we're all in the ship, and we're all traveling together

00:25:45.160 towards heaven.

00:25:45.880 But when you cross that, that boundary, which is usually marked by something like a communion

00:25:50.940 rail or an altar rail, you pass into the whole, the sanctuary, the holy of holies, and this

00:25:56.160 represents heaven, the world to come.

00:25:58.780 And through, and as we read in the letter to the Hebrews, who passes through the holy

00:26:04.180 of holies to enter into eternal glory and to prepare a place for us?

00:26:07.860 It's Jesus Christ, the high priest.

00:26:09.740 The letters to the Hebrews is very explicit.

00:26:11.520 It's because he's the priest and mediator that he can enter into the holy of holies and

00:26:15.980 prepare a place for us.

00:26:17.020 So that's why all of the ministers in the sanctuary are all Jesus Christ in a certain

00:26:22.860 respect.

00:26:23.520 So the priest is obviously the most, the icon of Christ, the high priest, most of all.

00:26:29.180 But the deacon is the icon of Christ, the servant, you know, and the subdeacon is an

00:26:35.120 assistant to the deacon.

00:26:36.960 The acolytes are Christ exercising, you know, small ministries like the washing of the feet, 0.65

00:26:42.980 right, or the washing of the hands, as in the case of mass.

00:26:47.020 And so really, it's the way Bishop Schneider puts it.

00:26:50.680 I love how he puts it.

00:26:51.860 He says that all of the ministries in the church, bishop, priest, deacon, subdeacon,

00:26:59.620 acolyte, exorcist, porter, lector, these are all of the traditional orders.

00:27:05.160 They're like a fanning out of the priesthood of Christ that shows all the dimensions of it.

00:27:11.040 All the dimensions of Christ's priestly service are reflected.

00:27:15.740 And this is like, because we poor mortal creatures, we can't understand very much simultaneously.

00:27:21.880 You know, our intellects are limited.

00:27:23.620 So we need to see symbolically all of the potentialities and powers of Christ's priesthood

00:27:28.600 spread out.

00:27:29.880 Like, just like white light passing through a prism turns into a whole spectrum of colors,

00:27:34.420 right?

00:27:34.600 That's what the ministries are.

00:27:35.920 They're a spectrum of colors that come from the prism of Christ's priesthood.

00:27:40.480 Now, if you take all of this seriously, and again, this is common theology for the whole

00:27:45.960 of Catholic and Orthodox history, then you're going to say, well, do we take seriously the

00:27:51.580 principle of the incarnate realism of Christ's priesthood?

00:27:54.780 He's a priest as a man.

00:27:56.340 He's a male human being.

00:27:57.820 He's not a hermaphrodite or an androgyne, you know, a male, female, or transcending male,

00:28:06.440 female, whatever. 1.00

00:28:07.300 No, he's just a man, fully man, fully human, but fully male as well.

00:28:12.300 And that's, that has, I mean, again, this could be a whole separate topic, but scripture

00:28:16.460 has a clear anthropology about men and women and how they relate to each other.

00:28:21.600 And this relationship that God created at the very beginning in Adam and Eve, he created

00:28:26.120 that, Leo the 13th says, in order to foreshadow and to teach us about the relationship of

00:28:31.220 Christ and the church.

00:28:32.420 Christ is the bridegroom. 0.99

00:28:33.680 The church is his bride. 0.98

00:28:35.440 Okay.

00:28:35.880 And that's, that comes straight from St. Paul, Ephesians chapter five.

00:28:38.720 So Genesis and Ephesians and many other texts, Revelation as well, are showing us that we,

00:28:45.220 when we see Jesus Christ, we're seeing the bridegroom, right? 0.99

00:28:48.520 And the bridegroom is a man, right? 0.82

00:28:50.680 We're not, there's no kind of homosexual, transsexual confusion in the Catholic church.

00:28:54.720 Unfortunately, and this would be my, this would be my last comment.

00:28:58.720 Unfortunately, feminism, I think feminism was part of the revolt of the Western world 1.00

00:29:05.500 against the cosmic order that God instituted in making the two sexes as complementary and 0.96

00:29:13.540 equal, but not interchangeable and not identical, right?

00:29:18.000 And feminism is a big revolt against the order of creation and having women serving ministries 0.99

00:29:23.940 in the sanctuary that reflect Christ, the bridegroom.

00:29:26.540 This is part of the feminist confusion in the church, and it's a massive confusion and 1.00

00:29:30.940 it has to be resisted for our own good.

00:29:34.720 Pope Pius XI said, men must look for the peace of Christ in the kingdom of Christ.

00:29:41.600 And he urged that the faithful give public honor to Christ the King so that individuals

00:29:46.020 and states would submit once more to the rule of their savior.

00:29:49.820 And that is why LifeSite News is raising up the image of Christ the King across the United

00:29:55.360 States.

00:29:55.880 And you can help us reach millions more.

00:29:59.260 Please pledge your support today for these billboards at lifefunder.com slash Christ is

00:30:05.520 King.

00:30:05.880 That answer answers a few of my other questions, because one was about women or girls serving 0.92

00:30:13.140 at the altar, which that answers because they tour in the sanctuary.

00:30:15.920 The other one was about women lectors, which is almost, I'll say almost, but almost a sine 0.61

00:30:22.160 qua non of a Nova Sordo mass.

00:30:25.100 I know that's, but it's almost, because it's in over 90%, I would say over 98% of all Nova

00:30:33.640 Sordo liturgies.

00:30:34.660 And in fact, it's even at the most of the unicorn masses, which is those masses that

00:30:41.240 are as orthodox as possible, even there, they have women readers.

00:30:47.180 They won't have extraordinary ministers of Holy communion.

00:30:49.460 They won't have altar girls, but women readers will always be there. 1.00

00:30:52.100 I think that not only is feminism involved, but also, and more, more innocently, you might 1.00

00:30:58.980 say, also involved is a false notion of active participation, right?

00:31:02.960 And this, this, this notion of active participation really needs to be properly understood.

00:31:08.620 The false way of understanding it is to think that the only way lay people can be dignified

00:31:14.660 is if they're busy doing some task that's related to the liturgy, especially in the sanctuary.

00:31:20.520 So as if to say that, to, that to be more active as a lay person is to be more like a

00:31:26.920 cleric, to be more like a minister in the sanctuary.

00:31:29.900 And the more active you are, the more involved you're going to get in the execution of the

00:31:34.480 liturgy in the sanctuary.

00:31:35.760 So, so basically like a bad Catholic is one who, who stands outside and smokes a cigarette. 0.82

00:31:41.400 A decent Catholic is one who sits in the pews and a good Catholic is one who sings the 0.96

00:31:46.840 hymns from the pews, but the best Catholic is the one who volunteers to be a lector, 0.94

00:31:51.540 a Eucharistic minister, you know, or whatever, an altar server.

00:31:55.400 Well, I'm sorry, but that's a completely false notion.

00:31:57.860 That is what John Paul II called a clericalization of the laity, right?

00:32:01.940 Where it's as if for a layman to have dignity, he has to imitate a priest and become a little

00:32:06.600 priest himself.

00:32:07.620 No, we're all priests by our baptism.

00:32:09.760 And the most dignified thing, priests, that is, we're priests in a general Christian sense,

00:32:14.560 right?

00:32:14.700 We're incorporated into the priesthood of Christ.

00:32:16.640 We're not ministerial priests unless we're ordained in holy orders.

00:32:19.880 But all of us, the most dignified thing we can do is to offer the sacrifice of praise,

00:32:24.740 the spiritual sacrifice of our bodies and souls at mass.

00:32:27.560 That's where we get our dignity from as Christians, not from doing stuff, you know, in the sanctuary

00:32:32.240 or even in the pews, right?

00:32:33.900 So I think there's been a real, a tragic loss of what is most important in the Christian life,

00:32:39.620 Finally, lay people are supposed to be active primarily outside the church.

00:32:45.480 When they leave the church, they're supposed to be active in culture, in politics, in business.

00:32:51.320 They're supposed to be leaven in the world.

00:32:54.320 That's where their active participation most of all counts.

00:32:58.460 In the liturgy, the ministers are entrusted by the church with the conduct of the liturgy,

00:33:03.280 and they are the ones who should be active in the liturgy primarily.

00:33:06.420 You know, the ministers and the choir, I would say, as well, these people who have special

00:33:11.160 roles to play.

00:33:12.280 The rest of us should be like Our Lady, actively receptive, right?

00:33:17.280 We are there to receive, not necessarily to be busy, right?

00:33:22.540 Like Martha.

00:33:23.380 We should be like Mary, not like Martha.

00:33:25.080 That's one distinction, I think, that where, because you included women in that, the women

00:33:30.580 aren't in the sanctuary, which distinguishes their ability in Latin mass of women to sing 1.00

00:33:37.400 in the choir, whereas they're not in any of those other roles, which are all inside the

00:33:42.060 sanctuary.

00:33:42.440 Is that the distinction there?

00:33:43.360 And that's why women are allowed to sing in the choir? 1.00

00:33:45.100 Yes, exactly.

00:33:45.880 So if there's a church, you know, this is a bit of inside ball, but if you have a church

00:33:51.120 set up, and there are many churches like this, where you have the sanctuary with the high

00:33:56.040 altar, but then also an area called the choir, which is where in a monastery, the monks would

00:34:03.400 sit and chant antiphonally back and forth, and then the nave.

00:34:07.700 If you have a setup like that, the women shouldn't be in that area that's called the choir area 1.00

00:34:13.020 of the church, which is, and that's because it would, it would send this kind of conflicting

00:34:18.180 message, anthropologically speaking.

00:34:21.460 With a, with a monastery of women religious, it's going to be set up in a different way.

00:34:25.460 But, but in, in most Catholic churches, what developed over the past few centuries is a choir

00:34:31.540 loft in the back of the church, accessible by a staircase, where the men and women, lay

00:34:37.780 people generally would sing, would sing in the choir.

00:34:40.360 And there was, there's, there's no difficulty with that because they're very, they're very

00:34:44.180 much not in the sanctuary.

00:34:45.580 They're in the nave and even better, they're not visible.

00:34:48.900 So you don't have to look at the performers and be distracted by them.

00:34:52.060 You can just hear their, hopefully angelic voices, you know, soaring out over the, over

00:34:57.480 the church.

00:35:02.480 Aloha everyone.

00:35:03.480 This is Jason Jones for LifeSide News.

00:35:05.640 We hope you enjoyed this video.

00:35:07.480 For more content like this, check the link in the description.

00:35:11.760 You can also connect with us on social media to stay up to date with the latest news on life,

00:35:17.480 faith, family, and freedom.

00:35:23.240 Thanks for watching and may God bless you.

The John-Henry Westen Show - November 26, 2024

Traditional Latin Mass is like an Easter egg hunt that lasts a lifetime

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