The John-Henry Westen Show - April 22, 2022


Unpacking Benedict's resignation： What if Francis isn't the pope after all？


Summary

In the Church today, one of the most controversial questions is obviously about Pope Francis. However, we have with us an expert in this, in fact, I think the world s foremost expert in it, his name is Dr. Ed Mazai.


Transcript

00:00:00.000 In the church today, one of the most controversial questions is obviously about Pope Francis.
00:00:05.880 Well, one thing that just happened was Archbishop Vigano has come out with a statement openly questioning the resignation of Pope Benedict.
00:00:15.380 Now, that's a huge thing because what would that mean?
00:00:17.540 It would mean that if his resignation was invalid, the whole papacy of Francis would be not only in question, maybe totally invalid.
00:00:25.880 So there's huge implications here.
00:00:28.500 However, we have with us an expert in this.
00:00:31.960 In fact, I think the world's foremost expert in it.
00:00:35.060 His name is Dr. Mazai.
00:00:37.500 You're going to want to stay tuned.
00:00:38.800 This is the John Henry Weston Show.
00:00:58.500 Dr. Mazai, thank you for being with us.
00:01:03.160 Oh, it's a privilege.
00:01:05.340 Let's begin as you always do at the sign of the cross.
00:01:08.200 In the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost.
00:01:12.560 Amen.
00:01:13.120 Amen.
00:01:13.460 So, if I may call you Ed.
00:01:17.940 Please.
00:01:19.080 So, Ed, I mean, this is hugely controversial.
00:01:22.600 You are a noted professor.
00:01:24.740 You are an academician in the Catholic world, obviously a practicing Catholic.
00:01:28.920 You've put yourself out here in a big way.
00:01:33.680 But before we get into all that, I want to just give us, for our readers or viewers, some of your background.
00:01:40.020 Who is Ed Mazai and what are you doing now?
00:01:43.460 I am a professor of history.
00:01:47.420 I taught for 14 years at Azusa Pacific University here in Southern California, which was actually an evangelical school.
00:01:55.520 But they were quite tolerant of an uppity Catholic, traditional Catholic.
00:02:01.200 And I'm originally from New York.
00:02:03.560 I have a book with Angelico Press entitled The Scholastics and the Jews,
00:02:09.520 which is basically a book about St. Raymond of Penafort, sort of the father of canon law,
00:02:17.100 and one of the successors of St. Dominic, and his traditional dialogue and approach to non-Catholics.
00:02:26.560 So, I've studied outreaches to other religions, but in a traditional way, and also canon law.
00:02:34.560 And at the moment, I am teaching online courses.
00:02:38.140 For example, starting on Mercy Sunday, I'm offering a mini-course, Four Sundays on St. Augustine's Guide to Sanctity During Societal Collapse.
00:02:48.920 So, if the folks go to edmundmazza.com, they can check that out.
00:02:52.880 We're also doing a course this spring on the history of the church from 1966 to 2016.
00:02:58.440 But basically, nothing happened during that time.
00:03:00.300 Nothing at all.
00:03:01.560 Very apropos for our times.
00:03:03.560 So, tell me, I mean, yours is a background steeped in faith, in academia.
00:03:11.940 And yet, what you've proposed has, I'm sure, gotten you a lot of flack.
00:03:18.300 It has.
00:03:20.660 And, of course, I want to stress that I may not be able to tell people who the Pope is, because, after all, I'm not a biologist.
00:03:29.640 But I do have the Mazza hypothesis.
00:03:35.260 And as a layperson, I would never have ventured into this territory if it weren't for good pastors who kind of pointed me in that direction.
00:03:43.200 And I'll just name a few names.
00:03:46.120 In the fall of 2018, Monsignor Nicola Bux, it's spelled B-U-X, a friend of Ratzinger, a member of the Coria, a priest for 50 years, he came out and said in an interview with, I believe, Aldo Maria Vali in October of 2018.
00:04:06.480 And they were discussing this terrible situation in the church under Francis.
00:04:12.040 And Monsignor Bux said, I think we need to do an investigation of Benedict's resignation.
00:04:19.660 So, being a scholar, I decided to stick my nose into it.
00:04:24.780 Also, I must say, I consider myself to be a spiritual son of the late, great Father Nicholas Gruner.
00:04:31.520 It's going to be seven years now this month, next week, since we lost him.
00:04:35.200 And I still remember in the late 1980s in high school, my mother gave me a copy of the Fatima Crusader.
00:04:43.320 And so I've been following the message of Our Lady of Fatima ever since.
00:04:47.220 And I think Father Gruner was right when he said that the full third secret was not revealed, that the consecration of Russia to Our Lady had not yet happened, has not yet happened.
00:04:59.700 And now, I don't know that many people know this, but there's a video out there, I can give you the link, of Father Gruner in the fall of 2014.
00:05:10.320 That's pretty early.
00:05:11.700 Fall of 2014 telling people that because Pope Benedict did not specifically renounce his munis, therefore he didn't renounce the papacy at all.
00:05:22.460 And wherever he went, like for example, he went to Ireland for St. Patrick's Day, 2015, everybody he met, he said, look, this is Father Gruner talking, Francis is not the Pope, and Pope Benedict is still the Pope.
00:05:39.040 And now, as you say-
00:05:39.920 Let's just watch a little clip of that right now, and then I'm going to get your take on it.
00:05:46.000 He says, very clearly, and you can read it for yourself, Benedict in his resignation says, I am not resigning the munis, M-U-N-U-S.
00:05:56.180 That means in Latin, it's the office.
00:05:59.300 Yet canon law, I think it's 332, if I got it correct, I can find it for you.
00:06:03.960 If I don't have it here, I most likely don't, I can send it to you.
00:06:06.420 But I have 332, which says, if a Pope were to resign, he must resign the munis.
00:06:11.440 So here you have canon law saying, to resign, you must resign the munis.
00:06:15.600 And here you have Pope Benedict saying, I'm not resigning the munis.
00:06:20.000 Now, to me, that's a principle that there's a contradiction here.
00:06:23.420 If you're resigning, you have to resign the munis, but he's saying, I'm not resigning the munis.
00:06:27.600 So whatever he's doing, he wasn't resigning the papacy.
00:06:29.640 And so as you saw in that clip, Father Gruner was analyzing the text of his renunciation, Pope Benedict's declaratio, which he issued on February 11th, 2013.
00:06:46.420 And so, of course, during our chat here, I'll go through a little bit of that to try to unpack it for the folks and explain why it's quite likely that the resignation was invalid.
00:07:00.740 Well, absolutely.
00:07:01.680 Here's actually a little clip of the somewhat filmed announcement by Pope Benedict and reaction from some of the cardinals.
00:07:11.500 Let's have a look at that.
00:07:12.180 Thank you.
00:07:42.180 Thank you.
00:08:12.180 Thank you.
00:08:14.180 Thank you.
00:08:16.180 Thank you.
00:08:18.180 Thank you.
00:08:48.180 So, Ed, if you can unpack for us what happened, what was said, and what do you make of it?
00:08:55.320 Yes, let's start with the what, because on my side of the fence, there's a bunch of people that have different theories as to the why, and I'll give you my best take on that as well.
00:09:07.800 But in terms of the what, but in terms of the what, people don't know this, but the Holy Father, the Roman Pontiff, whatever power he possesses, he possesses in virtue of his office.
00:09:21.140 This is what the first Vatican.
00:09:22.140 This is what the first Vatican.
00:09:23.140 This is what the first Vatican Council in 1870 teaches.
00:09:26.140 And it's what canon law teaches, and it's what canon law teaches, and it's what canon law teaches in canon 332 under the 1983 code of canon law, which governs the church today.
00:09:35.140 And in canon law, and in canon law, it says, and in canon law, it says, if it happens that the Roman pontiff resigns his office, it is required for validity that the resignation is made freely and properly manifested.
00:09:55.280 So what do we see there, there are three things, the first thing is that a papal resignation, as rare as it is, it could be invalid if he doesn't renounce his office, his, and the word in Latin is muniri in the text, which is in the original, it's munis.
00:10:18.900 And this is the text of the canon law, is that right?
00:10:21.160 Exactly. Canon 332.2. Again, I can give you the text. And again, it says, if it happens that the Roman pontiff resigns his munis, it's required for validity, meaning it's possible for it not to be valid, if it's not made freely, or if it's not properly manifested.
00:10:41.960 Well, I think on all three counts, there is ambiguity and problems. And so we can unpack that if you'd like.
00:10:50.160 Yeah, let's start. Wherever you wish to start from, I think we're going to save the why for later. And so we're really going to be looking at those two other parts.
00:11:01.300 Excellent. Excellent. So let me read from Pope Benedict's Declaratio. And I'll just read a few phrases here.
00:11:11.960 Now, what he just said there is that he's very well aware that the munis of the Roman pontiff is essentially a spiritual nature.
00:11:32.900 In other words, he's aware that this munis has an active element, words and deeds, but no less, it has a passive element of suffering and prayer.
00:12:00.560 And then, towards the end of his declaratio, he says,
00:12:06.700 He's recognizing his incapacity to keep doing this active ministry of words and deeds.
00:12:24.700 And so he says,
00:12:26.580 And then a little later, he says,
00:12:38.760 So what he did there is he did something odd.
00:12:44.220 He switched from using the expression munis hetrum, which he repeated again and again.
00:12:52.360 Which means what?
00:12:53.920 It means the office of Peter.
00:12:56.720 Okay.
00:12:57.340 And then he changed that at the end, you know, the money line in his declaratio is the renunciation.
00:13:05.480 And what he actually renounces is the ministerio episcopi romai, the ministry of the bishop of Rome.
00:13:15.320 So we have to ask ourselves, why did he replace munis with ministerium?
00:13:22.740 And why did he replace, you know, Petronum with episcopi romai?
00:13:29.580 And, you know, why change the way he was narrating things?
00:13:33.360 And I think there are, what he was essentially doing in that declaratio is that he, at the beginning of the declaratio, he says,
00:13:44.440 This munis is carried out in an active way through words and deeds.
00:13:49.440 And he's clearly not up for that anymore.
00:13:51.520 But it's also carried out by suffering and prayer.
00:13:55.820 Well, he can still do the suffering and the prayer.
00:13:57.980 So he hasn't renounced completely that munis.
00:14:02.420 That office, yeah.
00:14:03.840 That office.
00:14:04.740 But that's a problem.
00:14:06.140 Because that's the one little thing you have to do to resign from the papacy.
00:14:10.580 It's not that difficult.
00:14:12.080 According to canon law.
00:14:13.700 Yeah, exactly.
00:14:14.720 Exactly.
00:14:15.320 He has to resign the office.
00:14:18.100 And so we don't have that in the key phrase of the declaratio.
00:14:22.420 Now, the fact of the matter is, is that we have to understand Pope Benedict's use of the word munis in his declaratio with a whole controversy, John Henry, that's been going on for the last 60 years since Vatican II.
00:14:41.380 In my research, what I've uncovered is that many traditional Catholics are aware of, obviously, the problems with the new mass, the problems of the conciliar church with regard to the reception of Holy Communion, the problems of the conciliar church with regards to bishops' conferences and the teaching on human sexuality.
00:15:01.740 Well, I was surprised to learn that there's another crisis in the church, which most people are not aware of, you know, fighting a war on so many fronts, it's understandable that we're not going to be aware of everything.
00:15:12.840 But there's actually a crisis in ecclesiology.
00:15:17.160 Now, that's a fancy word for the church's theology of church.
00:15:22.640 And I can share a couple of quotes with you, if you'd like, from some professors regarding this unknown or not widely known crisis in the ecclesiology of the church, which actually, it seems, like everything else in the post-Vatican II world, has impacted maybe even the legitimacy of Papa Ratzinger's renunciation.
00:15:49.020 So let me give you a quote.
00:16:19.020 And Arietta's remarks are echoed by another professor.
00:16:49.000 In the Polish there, she's from the John Paul II Catholic University of Lublin.
00:16:54.720 And in her article, she says, the purpose of this article, this is from 2015, is the interpretation of the notion of munis in the constitution lumen gentium, right, from Vatican II.
00:17:10.000 And listen to what she says.
00:17:12.980 The Latin noun, munis, is an ambiguous word.
00:17:18.960 Full stop.
00:17:19.860 And she says, and she says, in the teaching of the Second Vatican Council, this word is presented up to 255 times.
00:17:27.300 And she goes through the various meanings of it.
00:17:29.740 It could mean office.
00:17:31.040 It could mean function.
00:17:32.540 It could mean service.
00:17:34.400 It could mean ministry.
00:17:35.880 And she says, she concludes, in many places, the translation of the constitution from the Latin language into the Polish language, both in 1968 and in 2002, are different.
00:17:50.180 And she says, this can cause not only problems of interpretation, but also doctrinal problems.
00:17:57.340 And so this is what I bring up to many people who say, well, ministerium, if you look it up in a Lewis and short Latin dictionary, it means the same thing as munis.
00:18:11.400 And according to the experts in canon law, that's not necessarily so.
00:18:18.060 In fact, if you'll indulge me a minute longer here, this is what Slavikowska has to say.
00:18:24.160 The term munis is most often analyzed in the literature with two others, oficium and ministerium.
00:18:33.920 And she says this, they are also synonymous with it, but at the same time, each of them can mean something different.
00:18:44.300 And this is the key phrase in her statement.
00:18:46.980 Their use, whether separate or synonymous, always depends on the context of the utterance, the author's intention, or the purpose for which they are used.
00:19:00.380 Hmm.
00:19:00.500 So if we want to know the author's intention, I would suggest that in addition to the declaratio of the Holy Father, that we also turn to his last general audience before he left the scene, as it were.
00:19:22.200 I could go into that if you'd like.
00:19:23.760 If you can, please, because here is where you will have some of the most contention.
00:19:29.740 It seemed clear from declarations of Pope Benedict that he was resigning somehow from the papacy.
00:19:40.780 And so this is the big, you know, counter-argument, I guess you'd say, you know, of people who say, wait a minute, wait a minute.
00:19:47.860 He's said over and over again that, no, he's resigned.
00:19:50.920 So what's the big contention here?
00:19:52.800 So my answer to the people who say that is that, you know, there are, John Henry, there are tens of thousands, maybe millions of couples in America and throughout the world who will swear up and down that they're married.
00:20:07.220 But it may be that there's a situation that was an impediment, and therefore they're not really married in the eyes of God, despite all their protestations.
00:20:17.600 In other words, if you don't, we're obviously not going to be able to go through all the conditions for a proper marriage, but there are conditions, and if those conditions are not met, then they're not really married in the eyes of God.
00:20:29.700 It's the same thing with resigning the office of the papacy.
00:20:33.660 In canon law, there's a term called substantial error, and substantial error normally comes up in marriage cases, because marriage is something that you have to enter into freely.
00:20:49.800 And if you don't, then it's not a marriage, and if you don't, then it's not a marriage.
00:20:53.500 That's one of the conditions.
00:20:55.840 Well, believe it or not, canon law, canon 188, says that when someone in the church resigns from their office, one of the things that would invalidate that resignation is something called substantial error.
00:21:13.160 It's when your intellect has an erroneous idea of the object that you're choosing, that your will is choosing.
00:21:24.960 Well, if your intellect presents an erroneous object to your will, and your will chooses it, your will is not free.
00:21:33.620 I'll give you a quick example, and then, if you'd like, we can jump into Benedict's last audience.
00:21:42.720 An example that we could give is this.
00:21:45.480 Let's say there's a man, and he will only marry, he stipulates, I will only marry an imperial Romanov princess, right, a daughter or granddaughter of the last czar of Russia, Nicholas II.
00:22:01.500 And so he's very happy, because he meets a girl named Natasha Romanova, and he marries her.
00:22:10.620 But guess what?
00:22:12.500 She's not really an imperial Romanov daughter or granddaughter.
00:22:18.780 She's actually from the Marvel Comics Avengers, right?
00:22:25.260 That would be called substantial error, because his intellect presented him with an object which he freely chose, but he didn't actually freely choose it because his intellect gave him an erroneous idea of it.
00:22:38.960 How do I apply this to Benedict?
00:22:41.020 It's very simple.
00:22:41.760 If Benedict thought he could resign the active ministry of the papacy, but somehow still remain papal and was able to offer up his sufferings and prayers in an ontological connection to the munis that belongs to St. Peter.
00:23:04.220 In other words, still as Pope.
00:23:06.320 Still as Pope in the passive sense, not in the active sense, you see.
00:23:13.920 Right, so he believed in some kind of bifurcation of the papacy.
00:23:18.220 It's a bifurcation.
00:23:19.140 See, this is where we get into the post-Vatican II problems, problematic theology or problematic ecclesiology.
00:23:26.680 And there have been books and articles, and I can rattle off names, but I don't want to confuse the folks since this is probably the first time they've been introduced to this.
00:23:40.200 So I'm going to try and break this down and make it real simple.
00:23:43.120 But maybe the best way to branch into that, to launch into that, is to read briefly from his last general audience, St. Peter's Square, the 27th of February, 2013.
00:23:57.180 And this is what he says.
00:23:58.380 I won't read the – I have the Italian in front of me, and I have the English in front of me.
00:24:02.200 I'll just stick with the English for the moment.
00:24:03.660 And what he did was the Holy Father was speaking about the anniversary we just celebrated last week.
00:24:11.840 His – you know, April 19th was the 17th anniversary of his election to the papacy.
00:24:17.580 And so in his last Wednesday audience, he was reflecting back on April 19th, 2005, when he accepted being the Roman pontiff.
00:24:27.920 And this is what he says.
00:24:29.220 He says, the always is also a forever.
00:24:34.240 Like, in other words, once he committed himself to becoming pope, it was a forever.
00:24:39.300 He says, quote, there's no longer a return to the private.
00:24:44.440 And this is the key phrase.
00:24:46.360 My decision to renounce the active exercise of the ministry does not revoke this.
00:24:55.300 Does not revoke what?
00:24:56.680 Notice he qualifies what he is renouncing.
00:25:17.280 He didn't say, I'm renouncing the munis.
00:25:21.440 He can't, because he still wants to do the passive exercise of the ministry, namely the prayer and the suffering.
00:25:30.140 But that's connected to the munis, to this ontological principle.
00:25:33.720 So he says, I do not return to private life, to a life of travel, meetings, receptions.
00:25:40.360 I do not abandon the cross, but remain in a new way with the crucified Lord.
00:25:47.460 Now, that's very interesting, because in 1977, he gave a speech in honor of Pope Paul VI, his 80th birthday, in which he repeatedly referred to the papacy as a cross.
00:26:00.660 And here, in 2013, we have Ratzinger saying, I don't abandon the cross.
00:26:08.120 And he goes on to say, I no longer carry the power of the office for the government of the church.
00:26:16.460 In other words, the active administration of the church.
00:26:18.780 But in the service of prayer, I remain, so to speak, in the precincts of St. Peter.
00:26:26.320 And then he finishes by saying, St. Benedict, whose name I bear as Pope, will be a great example to me in this.
00:26:35.240 He has shown us the way to a life which, active or passive, belongs totally to the work of God.
00:26:44.700 So, take us through there, if you would.
00:26:47.640 Where does that leave us, with regard to Benedict, Pope, not Pope?
00:26:54.520 Okay.
00:26:55.460 Well, let me inflict one more quote on you, because I think this is what really, it got my spider sense tingling.
00:27:02.660 Okay?
00:27:03.660 Pope Benedict has given interviews to his old friend and the journalist, Peter Sevald.
00:27:09.200 And one of those interviews was a full-length book.
00:27:13.600 It's called Benedict XVI, Last Testament.
00:27:17.380 And that came out, he did the interview in 2016.
00:27:19.780 It was published in 2017.
00:27:22.400 And Peter Sevald puts it, he basically throws the Holy Father's words from his declaratio right back at him and says the following.
00:27:31.980 Is a slowdown in the ability to perform reason enough to climb down from the chair of Peter.
00:27:43.120 And Benedict answers and says, one can make that accusation.
00:27:50.660 But it would be a functional misunderstanding.
00:27:54.960 Misunderstanding.
00:27:56.960 Accusation.
00:27:57.880 Seawald is only repeating to him what Benedict said in his declaratio, right?
00:28:05.860 It's a yes or no answer.
00:28:08.520 But Benedict does not give a yes or no answer to the question.
00:28:12.600 Instead, he says, the successor of Peter is not merely bound to a function.
00:28:20.160 The office enters into your very being.
00:28:24.340 In this regard, fulfilling a function is not the only criterion.
00:28:31.560 Well, this is what really got me interested in this question.
00:28:35.960 And so I researched.
00:28:38.720 I'm beginning to dream in German.
00:28:41.060 I've been going through so much of Joseph Ratzinger's works.
00:28:45.640 And I think I'm beginning to suffer from Stockholm Syndrome.
00:28:48.120 I'm going to start talking like Rahner and these other Nouvelle theologians, if you know what I mean.
00:28:56.640 But let me explain what he means by – or I'll try to explain what he means by functional misunderstanding.
00:29:04.440 See, Benedict characterizes Seawald's question as a functional misunderstanding, this idea that – well, let me just put it this way.
00:29:15.940 It's as if he's correcting Seawald for suggesting that Seawald has missed the transcendent component of the Petrine Munis, of the office.
00:29:29.040 The office enters into your very being, when Seawald somehow suggested that whenever Ratzinger is not actively leading the church, he's no longer papal.
00:29:41.020 But Benedict corrects him and says, the office enters into your very being, it's ontological, it's an always and a forever.
00:29:50.200 Now, this is interesting because I found a quote – I found more than one quote from Ratzinger where he explains the difference between something that's ontological and something that's functional.
00:30:00.300 For example, Benedict once criticized Martin Luther precisely for misunderstanding the difference between Munis as jurisdiction or function and Munis as rite or sacrament.
00:30:17.940 For example, Benedict says, for Luther, the priest does not transcend his role as preacher.
00:30:26.200 The consequent restriction to the word alone had as its logical outcome the pure functionality of the priesthood.
00:30:35.400 In other words, for Luther, the priesthood consisted exclusively in a particular activity.
00:30:43.820 And if that activity was missing, the ministry itself ceased to exist.
00:30:49.640 So, there was purposely no further mention of priesthood but only of office.
00:30:55.960 The assignment of this office was in itself a secular act.
00:31:00.140 But what Benedict is trying to say here is that I believe the way to understand his declaratio, his words at his last general audience, and his words to Seawald is that he's still papal even when he's not doing the active component or the functional component of what's traditionally understood to be the papacy.
00:31:26.460 Mm-hmm.
00:31:29.280 Yeah.
00:31:30.140 To be fair, I think there are a lot of indications that make things very confusing.
00:31:37.680 Benedict still wears white, the papal colors.
00:31:43.260 In fact, correct me if I'm wrong, but in the book, he's asked, why are you still wearing white?
00:31:48.840 And there seems to be some really lame excuse over there wasn't a cassock available for me.
00:31:53.160 There are no black cassocks available in Rome.
00:31:55.640 Did you know that, John Henry?
00:31:56.820 Yeah.
00:31:57.280 Yeah.
00:31:58.100 It's incredible.
00:31:58.940 That's obviously for people who might never have been in Rome, that might make them scratch their heads.
00:32:05.760 But for anybody who has been in Rome, that's very laughable because every corner you pass has some store full of sutans.
00:32:13.360 And so it's very strange indeed.
00:32:14.360 And so it's very strange indeed.
00:32:17.140 Another one of those things, he's still referred to as the Holy Father.
00:32:23.180 He, in fact, still signs with a papal signature.
00:32:25.340 In fact, Pope Francis refers to Pope Benedict as the Holy Father.
00:32:34.040 Very, very odd indeed.
00:32:36.720 So, and he hasn't left the walls of the Vatican.
00:32:40.620 He stays in the confines of the Vatican, as it were.
00:32:45.720 So, very strange indeed.
00:32:48.340 But continue, if you would.
00:32:50.600 Yes.
00:32:50.880 Well, you see, and you forgot to mention, he also gives apostolic blessings.
00:32:56.660 Can you give apostolic blessings, John Henry?
00:32:59.000 Can I?
00:33:00.360 That's reserved to the Pope alone.
00:33:02.140 So, what's going on here?
00:33:06.300 And what it is, is, is, again, Ratzinger has published many times his view, his ecclesiology.
00:33:18.060 Maybe the best way of putting this is to explain it this way.
00:33:21.420 Among the innovations of Vatican II, one of the major innovations was when Vatican II said
00:33:28.240 that bishops, when they are consecrated, when they receive the sacrament of ordination,
00:33:36.160 not only do they receive the power to, you know, confect the sacraments for the faithful,
00:33:43.100 which the church always taught, but Vatican II said something different, said something new.
00:33:48.580 They said that bishops, when they get consecrated, they also receive, through the sacrament,
00:33:54.540 the power to teach and to govern.
00:33:58.240 Now, for 800 years, that was thought to be something that is given to the bishop from the Holy Father.
00:34:07.340 In other words, it's something called missio canonica, or canonical mission.
00:34:12.040 And it's a grant of jurisdiction, which gives you the power to govern.
00:34:17.580 Now, so, Benedict, in a book that was published the year after the council, it's called Theological Insights of Vatican II.
00:34:32.340 In that book, Benedict Joseph Ratzinger goes to great lengths to explain that the council has moved past this medieval concept
00:34:47.580 where there is an office given to the church, which is a separate power from the power that's given to you when you're made a bishop, you see.
00:35:01.640 What Ratzinger and his – and he's not alone in this.
00:35:06.660 In fact, maybe the best way of explaining this, if you don't mind, I'll quote a friend of both of ours, Dr. Roberto Di Mattei,
00:35:14.520 who actually has taken issue with Ratzinger on this, and I think he explains it better than I can.
00:35:22.860 Roberto Di Mattei says,
00:35:24.100 Vatican Council II did not explicitly reject the traditional concept of power, potestas,
00:35:33.080 but what they did was they used different language.
00:35:35.660 They set it aside, replacing it with an equivocal new concept, that of munis.
00:35:43.540 He says Article 21 of Lumen Gentium, then, seems to teach that Episcopal consecration
00:35:50.460 confers not only the fullness of orders, but also the office of teaching and the office of governing.
00:36:00.020 Whereas, in the whole history of the church, the act of Episcopal consecration has been distinguished from that of appointment
00:36:07.180 or of the conferral of the canonical mission.
00:36:10.880 This ambiguity is consistent with the ecclesiology of the theologians of the council and post-council,
00:36:19.800 and Di Mattei names them.
00:36:22.140 Kanyar, Ratzinger, Dilubach, Balthasar, Rahner, Schillebex,
00:36:29.040 who presumed to reduce the mission of the church to a sacramental function
00:36:34.740 and scaling down its juridical aspects.
00:36:37.800 And he finishes by saying this, Ratzinger distanced himself from tradition
00:36:45.260 when he saw in the primacy of Peter the fullness of the apostolic ministry
00:36:52.260 linking the ministerial character to the sacramental.
00:36:58.020 So, let me put that in plain English.
00:37:00.320 There's a school of thought in the Catholic Church
00:37:03.240 which says that it's not the election of the Pope
00:37:09.200 that gives him or his acceptance of the election
00:37:12.580 that gives him his power.
00:37:15.820 It is by virtue of the fact that he has consecrated a bishop
00:37:20.360 because a layman, canon law, in fact, says
00:37:25.040 if someone is a layman or a priest or a deacon
00:37:29.140 and he's elected Pope,
00:37:30.960 he must immediately be consecrated a bishop.
00:37:35.180 Now, so there's this rift in the church
00:37:38.000 between those who say that the Pope gets his power
00:37:42.340 by Episcopal consecration
00:37:44.000 and those who say, no, he doesn't.
00:37:46.320 But if Ratzinger is truly among those
00:37:48.520 who say that the Pope gets it from Episcopal consecration,
00:37:51.400 well, as Professor Gerlanda,
00:37:55.340 the former head of the Gregorian University, points out,
00:37:58.780 if he got it through Episcopal consecration,
00:38:00.980 he can never lose it
00:38:02.520 because what we receive through a sacrament,
00:38:06.040 we never lose, you see?
00:38:08.380 So, that would explain, that would make perfect sense
00:38:11.640 why he still wears white, still lives in the Vatican,
00:38:15.640 still gives apostolic blessings,
00:38:17.260 why his own companion, Archbishop Georg Ganswine,
00:38:25.520 in a speech at the Greg in May 2016,
00:38:30.020 said that Benedict, both before and after his resignation,
00:38:36.100 still considers himself as participating
00:38:38.760 in the Petrine Munis.
00:38:41.900 He has not at all abandoned the office of Peter.
00:38:45.380 What he has done is he has courageously renewed it.
00:38:51.660 And those are, by the way,
00:38:53.040 I think those are direct quotes from Archbishop Ganswine,
00:38:55.400 are they not?
00:38:56.320 They are, and this is the problem.
00:38:59.160 What if Ratzinger's ecclesiology is wrong?
00:39:04.960 I mean, the post-conciliar church
00:39:07.420 couldn't get the mass right.
00:39:10.480 They can't seem to get the reception
00:39:12.340 of Holy Communion right.
00:39:13.920 They can't seem to get a whole host of things right.
00:39:18.420 We're supposed to believe that they managed somehow
00:39:20.960 to get papal resignations correct,
00:39:22.960 or the theology of the church correct.
00:39:26.840 Again, as Di Mattei points out,
00:39:29.140 and others have pointed out,
00:39:30.680 this is a new way,
00:39:32.320 a novel way,
00:39:33.380 of looking at bishops and their power.
00:39:37.360 And if you can't,
00:39:40.880 in other words,
00:39:41.700 if this is what I'm arguing,
00:39:43.380 this is the Maza hypothesis,
00:39:45.100 if Joseph Ratzinger thought
00:39:47.360 that he could somehow
00:39:48.940 leave the active
00:39:51.720 governance of the church,
00:39:54.560 the active ministry,
00:39:55.940 but still participate ontologically
00:39:58.280 in the Munis,
00:40:00.300 if he could still hold on
00:40:02.180 to some aspect of the papacy,
00:40:03.880 then he didn't really renounce the papacy.
00:40:05.920 Because if you're going to renounce the papacy,
00:40:07.580 traditionally speaking,
00:40:08.600 you have to renounce the whole thing.
00:40:10.520 It's like that old Frank Sinatra song,
00:40:12.780 all or nothing at all,
00:40:14.680 if you know what I mean.
00:40:17.120 It's very interesting,
00:40:18.340 especially in light of his predecessor as well.
00:40:21.380 Because here he is talking about
00:40:23.740 his incapacity to do the functions,
00:40:28.060 the active ministry, if you will.
00:40:30.600 Yet his own predecessor,
00:40:31.680 we all watched,
00:40:33.940 those of us who are,
00:40:35.460 let's say,
00:40:36.540 you know,
00:40:37.540 older than 35,
00:40:39.640 still remember John Paul II,
00:40:41.280 especially in his last years,
00:40:43.160 where you could arguably say
00:40:45.940 he could not function
00:40:47.940 in terms of an active ministry.
00:40:51.140 We remember him for years,
00:40:52.660 shaking with Parkinson's,
00:40:54.240 for being able barely to stand.
00:40:56.500 I remember when he was in Toronto
00:40:58.540 in the early 90s,
00:41:00.600 you know,
00:41:01.440 lifting up our Lord in Holy Communion
00:41:03.760 in front of all the people,
00:41:05.340 but he was hunched over so much
00:41:06.880 he could barely move.
00:41:08.600 It was such a moving portrayal of suffering,
00:41:12.060 and yet continuing in this office
00:41:15.320 until his death.
00:41:17.640 Like every father,
00:41:19.060 you don't renounce your family
00:41:21.040 because you're too old.
00:41:22.060 You struggle and continue
00:41:23.620 unto death into it.
00:41:25.180 When Pope John Paul II
00:41:27.020 was in Toronto,
00:41:29.260 there's a famous exchange
00:41:31.180 with Conrad Black.
00:41:32.040 He apparently visited his house,
00:41:34.240 and Black asked about that,
00:41:36.400 just that,
00:41:37.080 hey,
00:41:37.440 what about,
00:41:38.140 you know,
00:41:38.460 retiring?
00:41:39.460 And John Paul II
00:41:40.600 famously responded,
00:41:42.560 there is no such thing
00:41:43.440 as a Pope Emeritus.
00:41:45.660 And yet,
00:41:46.700 here we have this situation
00:41:48.080 from John Paul II's successor,
00:41:50.640 who's basically done this,
00:41:54.740 made a so-called Pope Emeritus,
00:41:57.480 but at the same time,
00:41:58.400 as you're pointing out,
00:42:00.200 his intention wasn't fully that.
00:42:02.360 It wasn't to renounce it fully
00:42:04.180 because he sees that
00:42:04.900 that can't be done fully,
00:42:06.520 or at least in his thought
00:42:08.080 it can't be done fully.
00:42:09.820 And so he couldn't have done it,
00:42:11.660 as you were saying about
00:42:12.760 what his intent actually was
00:42:15.160 and what does that mean
00:42:15.740 for the resignation that was.
00:42:17.740 Yes,
00:42:19.220 if,
00:42:19.720 you know,
00:42:20.660 actions speak louder
00:42:21.680 than words,
00:42:23.340 the fact that he chose
00:42:24.860 to be
00:42:25.500 Pope Emeritus
00:42:27.520 of Rome,
00:42:28.760 that he wears white,
00:42:29.880 that he gives apostolic blessings,
00:42:32.100 that corroborates,
00:42:33.620 you know,
00:42:33.760 this external evidence
00:42:34.880 corroborates
00:42:35.680 our reading
00:42:36.720 of his declaratio,
00:42:39.160 of his statement
00:42:40.420 at the last Wednesday audience,
00:42:42.660 his answers to Seawald,
00:42:44.520 his statements
00:42:46.540 that he's made
00:42:47.480 about ecclesiology
00:42:48.640 over the last 60 years.
00:42:50.600 But I'll add this,
00:42:52.480 this innovation
00:42:54.600 of a Pope Emeritus,
00:42:56.920 you know,
00:42:57.060 it's one thing
00:42:57.480 to be a Bishop Emeritus.
00:42:59.260 They didn't exist
00:43:00.240 until after Vatican II.
00:43:01.980 But the idea
00:43:02.800 with a Bishop Emeritus
00:43:03.840 is that
00:43:04.980 he no longer
00:43:06.200 has the active governance
00:43:07.840 of a diocese.
00:43:09.400 so he's emeritus.
00:43:12.980 But he's still a bishop.
00:43:15.460 And so he's Bishop Emeritus.
00:43:17.420 But in the case
00:43:18.380 of a Holy Father
00:43:19.780 who retires,
00:43:22.400 he can't be,
00:43:24.720 if he gives up
00:43:26.100 the active exercise,
00:43:27.860 you could say
00:43:28.680 he's emeritus,
00:43:29.960 but then he would still
00:43:31.140 be Pope,
00:43:31.840 as it were.
00:43:33.620 He's not,
00:43:34.460 or another way
00:43:34.920 of putting this
00:43:35.600 is,
00:43:37.100 because I did
00:43:37.900 some deep research
00:43:39.160 into this
00:43:39.820 two years ago
00:43:40.900 after I was on
00:43:41.980 the Dr. Taylor Marshall show.
00:43:44.260 I had read
00:43:45.300 that there's
00:43:46.240 a theological opinion
00:43:47.420 that perhaps
00:43:49.900 a Pope,
00:43:50.840 for a very grave reason,
00:43:52.760 could separate
00:43:53.540 the office
00:43:55.000 of Vicar of Christ
00:43:56.240 from the Bishop of Rome.
00:43:59.280 Because, of course,
00:44:00.180 Peter was the Bishop
00:44:01.260 of Antioch
00:44:02.080 and still was the Pope
00:44:03.640 before he was
00:44:04.320 Bishop of Rome.
00:44:05.220 In fact,
00:44:05.560 he was still
00:44:05.980 the Vicar of Christ
00:44:06.780 even before he was
00:44:07.720 the Bishop of Antioch.
00:44:10.160 And according
00:44:11.120 to Vatican I,
00:44:12.500 they decided
00:44:13.140 not to solve
00:44:14.060 the issue.
00:44:14.840 And so it is
00:44:15.380 legitimate,
00:44:16.320 although it's
00:44:16.700 a minority opinion
00:44:17.700 among the theologians,
00:44:19.240 that a Holy Father
00:44:21.180 under grave circumstances
00:44:22.320 could separate
00:44:24.860 the office
00:44:25.980 of Vicar of Christ
00:44:27.120 from the Diocese
00:44:28.460 of Rome,
00:44:28.920 from the Episcopacy
00:44:29.660 of Rome.
00:44:30.400 But let me play
00:44:31.280 devil's advocate.
00:44:32.300 Let's say that
00:44:32.820 the majority
00:44:33.460 of theologians
00:44:35.080 are correct
00:44:35.720 and you cannot
00:44:36.600 separate them.
00:44:37.720 what would that
00:44:40.100 entail?
00:44:41.560 If being
00:44:43.140 Vicar of Christ
00:44:44.060 is inseparable
00:44:45.060 from being
00:44:46.340 the Bishop
00:44:47.100 of Rome,
00:44:47.840 if you become
00:44:49.460 Bishop Emeritus
00:44:50.720 of Rome,
00:44:51.680 what would you
00:44:52.640 automatically become?
00:44:56.540 Well,
00:44:57.460 you'd become
00:44:57.920 not only
00:44:59.420 Bishop Emeritus,
00:45:01.300 you'd become
00:45:02.020 Vicar of Christ
00:45:03.340 Emeritus.
00:45:04.120 doesn't that
00:45:04.840 logically follow?
00:45:05.580 If being
00:45:06.400 the Bishop
00:45:07.780 of Rome
00:45:08.320 automatically makes
00:45:09.500 you Vicar
00:45:09.860 of Christ
00:45:10.420 and the two
00:45:11.600 are indissoluble,
00:45:13.760 then if you claim
00:45:14.580 to be the Bishop
00:45:15.360 Emeritus of Rome,
00:45:16.620 you must simultaneously
00:45:17.880 be claiming
00:45:18.760 to be the Vicar
00:45:19.500 of Christ
00:45:20.140 Emeritus.
00:45:21.180 What the heck
00:45:21.920 is a Vicar
00:45:23.300 of Christ
00:45:23.960 Emeritus?
00:45:24.540 That would
00:45:25.380 mean that
00:45:26.460 somehow
00:45:26.840 the current
00:45:28.040 occupant of
00:45:28.820 the chair
00:45:29.280 and Ratzinger
00:45:32.560 would somehow
00:45:33.520 be sharing
00:45:34.340 in the spiritual
00:45:35.900 office of the Vicar
00:45:36.920 of Christ.
00:45:37.880 And actually,
00:45:38.700 the church has
00:45:39.320 come out and
00:45:39.860 declared that
00:45:40.460 to be
00:45:40.780 heterodoxy.
00:45:41.640 Back at the
00:45:42.480 time of the
00:45:43.500 Jansenist crisis
00:45:45.720 in the 1600s,
00:45:48.380 the Pope
00:45:48.980 came out
00:45:49.480 with a statement,
00:45:50.820 a magisterial
00:45:51.600 statement,
00:45:52.480 saying that
00:45:53.500 you can't
00:45:54.040 have more
00:45:54.800 than one
00:45:55.240 person sharing
00:45:56.840 in the power
00:45:57.720 of the Vicar
00:45:58.540 of Christ,
00:45:59.080 of the papacy.
00:46:01.000 So again,
00:46:02.680 the very fact
00:46:04.160 that he's
00:46:04.800 come up
00:46:05.320 with this
00:46:05.700 novel thing,
00:46:07.540 Pope Emeritus,
00:46:08.800 if that
00:46:11.280 doesn't jive
00:46:12.160 with the
00:46:13.260 actual
00:46:13.680 ontological
00:46:14.360 reality of
00:46:15.140 the church,
00:46:15.520 as I explained,
00:46:16.580 how can you
00:46:17.120 be Pope
00:46:17.520 Emeritus and
00:46:18.260 not simultaneously
00:46:19.620 be claiming
00:46:20.380 to be Vicar
00:46:21.000 of Christ
00:46:21.460 Emeritus?
00:46:22.580 And the
00:46:23.120 church has
00:46:23.440 already condemned
00:46:24.160 that notion,
00:46:25.420 then again,
00:46:26.340 it points
00:46:26.980 to a
00:46:27.400 substantial
00:46:27.880 error in
00:46:29.220 his mind
00:46:29.920 when he
00:46:31.100 resigned,
00:46:31.700 in the
00:46:31.980 object that
00:46:32.560 he chose.
00:46:33.400 That would
00:46:33.980 mean that
00:46:34.520 his will
00:46:35.020 was not
00:46:35.880 free.
00:46:37.040 So if we
00:46:37.460 go back to
00:46:37.920 Canon 330
00:46:38.760 2.2,
00:46:40.740 what are
00:46:41.080 the three
00:46:41.360 things that
00:46:41.780 can invalidate
00:46:42.680 a papal
00:46:43.300 resignation?
00:46:44.400 One,
00:46:44.780 if he
00:46:45.020 doesn't
00:46:45.340 renounce
00:46:45.720 the
00:46:45.920 munis.
00:46:46.820 Well,
00:46:46.960 you can
00:46:47.160 read the
00:46:47.460 declaratio,
00:46:48.360 he never
00:46:48.780 actually
00:46:49.260 renounced
00:46:49.820 the
00:46:50.280 munis.
00:46:51.440 Two,
00:46:52.100 what can
00:46:52.340 also
00:46:52.720 invalidate
00:46:53.820 a papal
00:46:55.060 resignation?
00:46:56.000 If it's
00:46:56.680 not manifested
00:46:57.420 properly?
00:46:59.320 Well,
00:46:59.640 there's so
00:47:00.040 much confusion
00:47:00.720 over the
00:47:01.300 language,
00:47:02.400 and we
00:47:02.700 have scholars
00:47:03.300 testifying to
00:47:04.180 that about
00:47:05.380 munis and
00:47:05.960 office and
00:47:06.540 ministerium,
00:47:07.320 and there's
00:47:07.900 so much
00:47:08.220 ambiguity
00:47:08.700 in his
00:47:09.320 statement
00:47:09.960 and in
00:47:10.580 his further
00:47:12.140 clarifications on
00:47:13.320 the subject
00:47:13.720 that I think
00:47:15.100 it's arguable
00:47:15.820 that his
00:47:16.380 resignation was
00:47:17.200 not manifested
00:47:17.880 properly.
00:47:18.980 And what's
00:47:19.260 the third
00:47:19.620 thing that
00:47:20.460 can invalidate
00:47:21.800 a papal
00:47:22.720 resignation?
00:47:23.680 If it was
00:47:24.240 not done
00:47:24.660 freely?
00:47:25.500 Now,
00:47:25.700 when people
00:47:26.040 hear that,
00:47:26.580 they think,
00:47:27.020 well,
00:47:27.300 somebody has
00:47:28.240 to put a
00:47:28.580 gun to
00:47:28.940 somebody's
00:47:29.360 head,
00:47:29.680 and then
00:47:29.960 they're
00:47:30.060 not free.
00:47:31.020 That's
00:47:31.400 not what
00:47:31.680 I'm suggesting,
00:47:35.460 although I
00:47:35.880 think we
00:47:36.120 should look
00:47:36.460 into the
00:47:37.220 Communist Party
00:47:37.820 of China
00:47:38.300 and other
00:47:38.960 aspects,
00:47:39.820 the pressures
00:47:40.360 that were
00:47:40.680 put on
00:47:41.360 Benedict.
00:47:42.080 As you
00:47:42.360 remember,
00:47:42.900 there were
00:47:43.080 tremendous
00:47:43.440 pressures being
00:47:44.060 put on
00:47:44.380 Benedict at
00:47:44.820 that time.
00:47:45.240 I wouldn't
00:47:45.860 want to
00:47:46.080 rule out
00:47:46.440 the possibility
00:47:47.100 of some
00:47:47.620 heavy-handedness
00:47:48.300 between the
00:47:48.720 New World
00:47:48.980 Order and
00:47:49.840 the traitors
00:47:52.000 in the
00:47:52.280 church with
00:47:52.880 regard to
00:47:53.740 the resignation
00:47:54.140 of Benedict.
00:47:55.000 But putting
00:47:55.340 all that
00:47:55.660 aside,
00:47:56.960 as I
00:47:57.180 say,
00:47:57.920 Canon 188
00:47:59.600 says that
00:48:00.680 a resignation
00:48:01.660 due to
00:48:02.620 substantial error
00:48:03.840 is automatically
00:48:04.740 invalid by the
00:48:05.740 law itself.
00:48:07.020 And so,
00:48:07.400 if he had
00:48:08.100 a messed-up
00:48:09.160 notion,
00:48:09.700 an erroneous
00:48:10.240 notion of
00:48:11.280 what he was
00:48:11.940 renouncing or
00:48:12.640 half-renouncing
00:48:13.740 or whatever,
00:48:14.220 his will
00:48:15.640 was not
00:48:16.080 free.
00:48:17.200 And so,
00:48:17.720 I think
00:48:18.480 the three
00:48:19.460 possibilities
00:48:20.600 for invalidation
00:48:21.600 are there,
00:48:22.580 and that's
00:48:22.840 why I think
00:48:23.220 Archbishop
00:48:23.680 Vigano is
00:48:24.700 right to
00:48:25.740 say,
00:48:25.980 look,
00:48:26.140 before the
00:48:26.560 next
00:48:26.760 conclave,
00:48:28.140 we've
00:48:28.480 got to
00:48:28.700 get this
00:48:29.020 straight.
00:48:29.440 We have
00:48:29.700 to have
00:48:30.320 an
00:48:30.420 objective
00:48:30.780 investigation
00:48:31.320 of this.
00:48:34.080 One
00:48:34.560 question
00:48:34.920 before we
00:48:35.520 get to
00:48:36.040 the why,
00:48:36.560 because I
00:48:36.800 do want
00:48:37.020 to hit
00:48:37.220 that right
00:48:37.580 before we
00:48:37.960 end.
00:48:39.120 This
00:48:39.440 question
00:48:39.760 comes
00:48:40.120 actually
00:48:40.520 from
00:48:40.720 Professor
00:48:41.080 de Maté,
00:48:41.720 who you
00:48:42.160 quoted
00:48:42.420 before.
00:48:42.900 As you
00:48:43.080 know,
00:48:43.280 we go
00:48:44.120 back quite
00:48:45.420 a ways.
00:48:46.680 One of the
00:48:47.140 things he
00:48:47.440 mentioned to
00:48:47.960 me was,
00:48:49.280 well,
00:48:49.640 if Ratzinger
00:48:50.600 had such
00:48:52.340 a distorted
00:48:53.400 view of
00:48:53.880 the papacy
00:48:54.580 and his
00:48:56.280 resignation
00:48:56.740 is perhaps
00:48:58.360 invalid because
00:48:59.120 of that,
00:49:00.400 would his
00:49:01.000 own acceptance
00:49:01.740 of the
00:49:02.540 papacy
00:49:03.120 way back
00:49:04.340 in 2005
00:49:05.040 also be
00:49:06.760 affected by
00:49:07.480 having it
00:49:10.780 wrong in
00:49:11.040 the first
00:49:11.240 place?
00:49:12.960 That's
00:49:13.360 an excellent
00:49:13.680 question.
00:49:15.540 Now,
00:49:16.020 on the
00:49:16.200 surface
00:49:16.480 of it,
00:49:17.080 people who
00:49:17.640 think
00:49:17.840 Benedict
00:49:18.140 is still
00:49:18.540 the
00:49:18.680 pope or
00:49:19.020 likely
00:49:19.520 still
00:49:19.900 the
00:49:20.060 pope,
00:49:20.820 they
00:49:21.040 take a
00:49:21.540 question
00:49:21.800 like that
00:49:22.200 and it
00:49:22.420 sounds like
00:49:22.780 the question,
00:49:23.260 are you
00:49:23.460 still beating
00:49:23.880 your wife?
00:49:25.580 But I'll
00:49:27.060 venture an
00:49:27.540 answer,
00:49:27.880 and the
00:49:28.020 answer is
00:49:28.300 pretty
00:49:28.460 simple.
00:49:29.280 When
00:49:29.560 Benedict
00:49:29.920 accepted
00:49:30.540 the
00:49:30.740 papacy,
00:49:31.660 he didn't
00:49:32.400 reserve
00:49:32.880 anything.
00:49:33.720 He didn't
00:49:34.040 add any
00:49:36.100 technicalities
00:49:36.960 or qualifications
00:49:37.980 or reservations
00:49:38.680 to it.
00:49:39.140 He just
00:49:39.400 simply accepted
00:49:40.080 it.
00:49:40.980 Therefore,
00:49:41.480 that's fine.
00:49:42.440 That's fine
00:49:43.160 and dandy.
00:49:44.160 The problem
00:49:44.880 is that if
00:49:45.880 you want to
00:49:46.260 resign the
00:49:46.740 papacy,
00:49:47.940 it's kind
00:49:48.300 of like
00:49:48.460 President
00:49:48.760 Nixon.
00:49:50.000 In one
00:49:50.680 sentence,
00:49:51.440 he resigned
00:49:52.000 the office
00:49:52.540 of the
00:49:52.820 presidency
00:49:53.180 of the
00:49:53.540 United
00:49:53.680 States.
00:49:54.500 He said,
00:49:54.880 I hereby
00:49:55.280 renounce
00:49:55.640 the office
00:49:56.020 of the
00:49:56.280 presidency
00:49:56.600 of the
00:49:56.900 United
00:49:57.040 States.
00:49:57.760 If
00:49:57.960 Benedict
00:49:58.220 had done
00:49:58.580 that,
00:49:58.820 there'd be
00:49:59.000 nothing for
00:49:59.340 you and
00:49:59.540 me to
00:49:59.740 talk
00:49:59.980 about.
00:50:01.720 The problem
00:50:03.620 is when
00:50:04.220 your intellect
00:50:06.180 has an
00:50:07.300 idea of
00:50:08.200 the papacy
00:50:08.860 that you
00:50:09.560 can somehow
00:50:10.200 renounce
00:50:10.780 the active
00:50:11.420 part of
00:50:11.940 it,
00:50:12.680 but still
00:50:13.320 ontologically,
00:50:14.920 metaphysically
00:50:15.800 participate in
00:50:17.580 the platonic
00:50:18.420 form of
00:50:20.240 Pope,
00:50:21.100 with a
00:50:21.400 capital
00:50:21.700 P,
00:50:22.620 mystically.
00:50:24.740 If that's
00:50:25.740 your thought
00:50:26.660 pattern and
00:50:27.580 you choose
00:50:28.060 that,
00:50:28.380 then your
00:50:28.600 will is
00:50:28.880 not really
00:50:29.260 free if
00:50:29.760 it chooses
00:50:30.060 something
00:50:30.360 that's
00:50:30.560 erroneous.
00:50:32.720 For
00:50:33.520 instance,
00:50:34.220 had he
00:50:34.580 just said
00:50:35.380 simply,
00:50:36.360 like
00:50:36.720 President
00:50:37.020 Nixon
00:50:37.320 did,
00:50:38.240 I
00:50:38.500 resign
00:50:38.840 the
00:50:39.020 office
00:50:39.240 of
00:50:39.360 the
00:50:39.460 papacy,
00:50:40.540 that
00:50:40.920 would be
00:50:41.160 done
00:50:41.340 whether
00:50:41.560 or not
00:50:42.000 he
00:50:42.220 thought
00:50:42.560 differently
00:50:43.000 about it.
00:50:45.200 Off the
00:50:47.220 top of
00:50:47.500 my head,
00:50:48.080 I would
00:50:48.380 say it's
00:50:49.080 kind of
00:50:49.340 like when
00:50:49.960 the minister
00:50:52.040 gives the
00:50:52.880 Eucharist,
00:50:53.600 or when
00:50:53.880 the priest
00:50:54.700 does
00:50:55.200 baptism,
00:50:56.160 or even
00:50:56.620 when a
00:50:56.900 Protestant
00:50:57.320 gives
00:50:57.980 somebody
00:50:58.360 baptism.
00:50:59.700 The
00:50:59.820 church
00:51:00.100 says
00:51:00.600 that
00:51:01.980 as long
00:51:02.800 as he
00:51:03.060 intends
00:51:03.860 to do
00:51:04.360 what the
00:51:04.780 church
00:51:05.040 intends
00:51:05.400 to do,
00:51:06.620 it's
00:51:07.240 valid,
00:51:07.680 as long
00:51:07.940 as he
00:51:08.120 uses the
00:51:08.520 right words.
00:51:09.620 And it
00:51:09.920 doesn't really
00:51:10.340 matter if
00:51:10.820 he has
00:51:11.100 his theology
00:51:11.880 completely
00:51:12.380 together.
00:51:14.320 So I
00:51:15.080 would say
00:51:15.460 is that
00:51:15.800 if
00:51:16.240 Benedict
00:51:17.120 used the
00:51:18.800 right words,
00:51:19.500 I mean,
00:51:19.960 Canon
00:51:20.220 332.2
00:51:21.820 says,
00:51:22.240 if the
00:51:23.720 Roman
00:51:23.940 pontiff
00:51:24.520 renounces
00:51:25.860 his
00:51:26.240 munis,
00:51:27.620 it has
00:51:28.300 to be
00:51:28.540 free,
00:51:29.120 and it
00:51:29.360 has to
00:51:29.600 be
00:51:29.720 properly
00:51:30.040 manifested.
00:51:31.340 And if
00:51:31.540 he had
00:51:31.780 done that
00:51:32.660 in word
00:51:33.600 and in
00:51:34.080 deed,
00:51:34.700 we wouldn't
00:51:35.180 be having
00:51:35.540 this discussion
00:51:36.840 right now.
00:51:39.080 Amazing
00:51:39.640 stuff,
00:51:40.220 very confusing,
00:51:41.620 but boy,
00:51:43.140 what a
00:51:43.360 change this
00:51:44.360 would bring.
00:51:45.640 I mean,
00:51:46.120 would it
00:51:47.380 if,
00:51:48.200 in fact,
00:51:49.280 his resignation
00:51:50.380 was deemed
00:51:51.580 invalid by
00:51:53.220 an investigation
00:51:53.760 in the
00:51:54.040 church as
00:51:54.680 Archbishop
00:51:55.620 Figueroa has
00:51:56.120 called for,
00:51:57.020 and I
00:51:57.260 think other
00:51:57.660 bishops would
00:51:58.640 support,
00:51:59.920 some other
00:52:00.340 bishops,
00:52:00.660 of course,
00:52:00.980 by no means
00:52:02.140 am I saying
00:52:02.700 the majority
00:52:03.120 of so,
00:52:03.560 but what
00:52:05.860 would that
00:52:06.300 then mean
00:52:06.960 for the
00:52:08.080 church today?
00:52:08.680 Would it
00:52:09.000 basically
00:52:09.420 invalidate all
00:52:10.820 of Pope
00:52:11.140 Francis'
00:52:11.700 actions as
00:52:12.500 pope?
00:52:14.140 Well,
00:52:14.760 people are
00:52:15.200 divided on
00:52:15.860 that.
00:52:16.760 You know,
00:52:17.000 my take
00:52:17.720 is that
00:52:18.440 certainly
00:52:20.180 all these
00:52:21.160 heretical
00:52:21.540 documents,
00:52:22.460 at least
00:52:22.820 materially
00:52:23.540 heretical,
00:52:24.920 like Abu
00:52:25.900 Dhabi,
00:52:27.060 that God
00:52:27.720 wills the
00:52:29.160 plurality of
00:52:29.980 religions,
00:52:31.220 all these
00:52:32.020 terrible
00:52:32.880 encyclicals
00:52:34.000 and post-apostolic
00:52:35.600 exhortations
00:52:36.380 like Amoris
00:52:37.480 Laetitia,
00:52:38.700 which seems
00:52:39.620 to say that
00:52:40.340 people that
00:52:41.700 are divorced
00:52:42.180 and remarried
00:52:42.880 can receive
00:52:43.960 Holy Communion,
00:52:44.900 even though
00:52:45.240 they're in an
00:52:45.580 objective state
00:52:46.740 of grave sin,
00:52:47.980 or even,
00:52:48.720 it says worse
00:52:49.720 than that,
00:52:50.100 it says there
00:52:50.500 are times
00:52:51.020 when people
00:52:51.800 have to
00:52:52.260 sin,
00:52:52.760 so to
00:52:53.020 speak,
00:52:53.540 but anyway,
00:52:54.660 I think
00:52:55.780 those would
00:52:56.440 automatically be
00:52:57.200 wiped away,
00:52:58.040 but in terms
00:52:58.640 of church
00:52:59.040 appointments,
00:53:00.840 there is
00:53:01.500 something called
00:53:02.400 ecclesias
00:53:03.040 supplet,
00:53:04.360 or a
00:53:06.040 jurisdiction
00:53:06.600 that the
00:53:07.400 heaven supplies,
00:53:08.700 supplied
00:53:09.200 jurisdiction,
00:53:10.820 for when,
00:53:12.600 for a
00:53:12.880 situation like
00:53:13.740 this,
00:53:14.800 and another
00:53:16.620 thing I wanted
00:53:17.060 to add to
00:53:18.020 that,
00:53:18.500 to your
00:53:18.700 question there
00:53:19.300 about
00:53:19.700 what if
00:53:23.040 Bergoglio
00:53:23.620 is an
00:53:24.080 anti-pope,
00:53:25.240 people often
00:53:26.600 accuse me
00:53:27.340 of,
00:53:27.940 and others,
00:53:28.680 of trying to
00:53:29.540 provoke schism,
00:53:30.400 and obviously
00:53:30.860 that's the last
00:53:31.440 thing I want to
00:53:32.080 do,
00:53:32.740 and I'm only
00:53:33.400 following what
00:53:34.060 Father Gruner
00:53:34.660 basically told me
00:53:36.020 to do,
00:53:36.600 and Monsignor
00:53:37.440 Bux,
00:53:37.920 and now
00:53:38.600 Archbishop
00:53:39.080 Vigano,
00:53:39.900 but St.
00:53:41.580 Cajetan,
00:53:42.740 in his commentary
00:53:43.560 on the
00:53:44.060 Summa,
00:53:45.400 he says
00:53:45.820 the following,
00:53:46.540 if someone,
00:53:47.580 for a
00:53:47.940 reasonable
00:53:48.420 motive,
00:53:50.160 holds the
00:53:50.780 person of
00:53:51.360 the Pope
00:53:51.800 in suspicion,
00:53:53.640 and refuses
00:53:54.320 his presence,
00:53:55.180 and even
00:53:55.620 his jurisdiction,
00:53:57.280 he does
00:53:57.620 not commit
00:53:58.860 the delict
00:53:59.660 of schism,
00:54:00.940 nor any
00:54:01.800 other
00:54:02.080 whatsoever,
00:54:03.060 provided that
00:54:03.700 he be ready
00:54:04.140 to accept
00:54:04.620 the Pope
00:54:05.100 were he not
00:54:05.820 held in
00:54:06.340 suspicion.
00:54:08.160 And then,
00:54:09.140 another quote
00:54:09.940 I could share
00:54:10.760 with you is
00:54:11.400 from,
00:54:11.880 you know,
00:54:12.220 before Vatican
00:54:12.840 II,
00:54:13.700 the most
00:54:14.360 respected
00:54:14.820 commentary
00:54:15.400 on canon
00:54:16.160 law was
00:54:17.280 the eight
00:54:17.720 volume set
00:54:18.640 by Francis
00:54:19.360 Xavier
00:54:19.800 Werner
00:54:20.300 and Peter
00:54:21.400 Vidal,
00:54:22.380 and they
00:54:23.000 wrote,
00:54:24.340 they cannot
00:54:24.960 be numbered
00:54:26.020 among the
00:54:26.680 schismatics
00:54:27.520 who refuse
00:54:28.600 to obey
00:54:29.300 the Roman
00:54:29.760 pontiff
00:54:30.500 because they
00:54:31.380 consider his
00:54:31.980 person to
00:54:32.580 be suspect
00:54:33.140 or doubtfully
00:54:34.680 elected on
00:54:35.900 account of
00:54:36.600 rumors in
00:54:37.680 circulation,
00:54:38.560 just rumors
00:54:39.200 in circulation.
00:54:40.920 So I
00:54:41.660 want to make
00:54:42.160 that clear.
00:54:42.660 I don't
00:54:43.440 endorse
00:54:43.760 schism,
00:54:44.500 nor do I
00:54:45.000 want to
00:54:45.240 promote
00:54:45.520 that.
00:54:46.180 And from
00:54:46.820 what I
00:54:47.080 can read,
00:54:47.880 it seems
00:54:48.340 that I'm
00:54:48.640 not doing
00:54:49.060 that.
00:54:50.000 And I
00:54:50.900 don't think
00:54:51.320 that Archbishop
00:54:52.020 Vigano would
00:54:52.680 be encouraging
00:54:53.240 that,
00:54:53.600 or Father
00:54:53.980 Gruner.
00:54:54.800 Or,
00:54:55.240 you know,
00:54:55.840 I want to
00:54:56.180 add,
00:54:56.580 Father Paul
00:54:57.080 Kramer
00:54:57.500 recently came
00:54:58.760 out with a
00:54:59.240 book about
00:55:00.700 Pope Benedict's
00:55:02.700 resignation and
00:55:03.960 about Jorge
00:55:04.480 Bergoglio.
00:55:05.660 I believe it's
00:55:06.500 called On the
00:55:07.280 True and False
00:55:08.160 Pope that just
00:55:09.320 came out in
00:55:10.080 November of last
00:55:11.060 year.
00:55:12.160 And also,
00:55:12.720 I don't know
00:55:13.020 if you're
00:55:13.240 familiar with
00:55:14.000 Dr.
00:55:15.560 Rydali,
00:55:16.740 who was a
00:55:17.440 student of
00:55:18.080 Romano
00:55:18.580 Emerio from
00:55:20.220 the book
00:55:21.180 Iota Unum.
00:55:22.920 He just came
00:55:23.460 out with a
00:55:23.840 book.
00:55:24.400 It's in
00:55:24.780 English and
00:55:25.360 in Italian.
00:55:26.840 At the heart
00:55:27.440 of Ratzinger,
00:55:28.440 he is the
00:55:29.040 Pope, not
00:55:29.720 the other.
00:55:31.060 So very,
00:55:32.020 very bright
00:55:32.600 people are
00:55:34.140 looking into
00:55:35.440 this for the
00:55:36.260 good of the
00:55:36.640 church.
00:55:38.040 Absolutely.
00:55:38.920 And I know
00:55:39.300 Professor
00:55:39.740 Rydali.
00:55:40.960 And, you
00:55:41.680 know, not
00:55:43.060 only very
00:55:43.480 bright people,
00:55:45.380 people have to
00:55:45.900 understand these
00:55:46.420 are very, very
00:55:47.400 faithful Catholics.
00:55:48.820 The kind of
00:55:49.700 Catholic who
00:55:50.740 would want to
00:55:51.340 give his life
00:55:51.920 for the faith,
00:55:53.520 ready to,
00:55:54.440 you know,
00:55:55.800 offer up
00:55:56.160 everything,
00:55:56.500 and they are
00:55:57.040 offering up
00:55:57.480 already, as
00:55:58.780 are you,
00:55:59.320 very much of
00:56:00.140 your reputation,
00:56:01.380 putting yourself
00:56:01.840 in the line of
00:56:02.340 fire, by
00:56:04.660 high-ranking
00:56:06.520 churchmen, by
00:56:07.400 those you
00:56:08.120 might love and
00:56:08.640 respect in the
00:56:09.200 faith as well.
00:56:10.420 So very
00:56:11.920 challenging things
00:56:12.660 to do.
00:56:13.500 Well, I
00:56:14.160 couldn't suffer
00:56:14.760 worse than,
00:56:15.760 if you don't
00:56:16.140 mean, I'm
00:56:16.900 sorry to
00:56:17.220 interrupt you
00:56:17.620 there, John
00:56:17.960 Henry.
00:56:18.420 I couldn't
00:56:18.880 suffer worse
00:56:19.520 than Ed
00:56:19.940 Penton.
00:56:20.920 You remember
00:56:21.220 a few years
00:56:21.660 back, Cardinal
00:56:22.800 Maradiaga called
00:56:23.860 him a mafioso?
00:56:28.840 Unbelievable
00:56:29.320 stuff.
00:56:29.920 But before we
00:56:30.460 close, I
00:56:30.760 wanted to get
00:56:31.260 to your
00:56:31.740 why.
00:56:33.600 What do
00:56:34.320 you think?
00:56:35.080 Why do you
00:56:35.700 think Ratzinger
00:56:37.880 Pope Benedict
00:56:38.660 did what he
00:56:39.540 did?
00:56:40.780 Well, again,
00:56:41.740 there are
00:56:42.080 different takes
00:56:42.800 on this.
00:56:43.580 Some people
00:56:43.980 think that
00:56:45.120 he did it
00:56:48.060 deliberately
00:56:48.500 because he
00:56:50.020 foresaw what
00:56:51.040 was coming
00:56:51.640 and wanted
00:56:54.340 to make
00:56:55.620 sure that
00:56:56.160 whoever succeeded
00:56:57.000 him, if he
00:56:57.680 was going to
00:56:57.980 be a modernist,
00:56:59.260 all his work
00:57:00.540 would amount
00:57:01.300 to nothing,
00:57:02.100 you know,
00:57:02.340 legitimately.
00:57:02.800 other people
00:57:05.060 like myself
00:57:05.780 think that
00:57:06.880 he committed
00:57:07.960 some kind
00:57:08.360 of substantial
00:57:08.880 error or
00:57:09.620 had some
00:57:10.040 erroneous
00:57:10.620 theology that
00:57:12.500 in a sense
00:57:13.480 fortuitously
00:57:14.660 saved us
00:57:16.520 from Bergoglio
00:57:17.380 being a
00:57:17.840 legitimate
00:57:18.180 pope and
00:57:19.500 by Ratzinger
00:57:20.260 still being
00:57:20.820 the pope.
00:57:22.640 So there
00:57:23.180 are various
00:57:23.600 theories about
00:57:24.360 this, but
00:57:25.320 I think
00:57:25.880 my bet
00:57:28.180 is, and
00:57:28.680 my research
00:57:29.380 is, is
00:57:30.400 that it
00:57:30.820 was more
00:57:31.380 his post-conciliar
00:57:34.320 ideas, his
00:57:35.160 nouvelle
00:57:35.460 theologie
00:57:36.020 that gave
00:57:37.020 him this
00:57:37.320 idea that
00:57:38.340 you could
00:57:38.640 still be
00:57:39.340 papal without
00:57:40.860 actually
00:57:41.400 administering and
00:57:42.600 governing the
00:57:43.280 church.
00:57:43.740 and if I
00:57:45.720 could throw
00:57:46.040 in here
00:57:46.480 the testimony
00:57:47.360 of, I
00:57:48.600 know you're
00:57:48.900 familiar with
00:57:49.400 the work
00:57:49.800 of Malachi
00:57:51.620 Martin in
00:57:53.240 his book that
00:57:54.440 he wrote 30
00:57:55.000 years ago,
00:57:55.580 The Keys of
00:57:56.120 This Blood,
00:57:57.520 he said
00:57:58.300 something
00:57:59.080 interesting.
00:58:00.320 And of
00:58:00.900 course, whenever
00:58:01.220 we hear
00:58:01.500 Father Malachi
00:58:02.020 Martin's
00:58:02.440 name, our
00:58:02.800 ears have
00:58:03.180 to perk
00:58:03.520 up because
00:58:04.000 he claimed
00:58:04.940 to have
00:58:05.260 read The
00:58:05.580 Third
00:58:05.760 Secret.
00:58:07.360 And in
00:58:08.200 his books,
00:58:09.420 although he
00:58:09.860 could not
00:58:10.260 actually come
00:58:10.980 out and
00:58:11.400 state The
00:58:12.100 Third
00:58:12.300 Secret, he
00:58:13.840 often mixed
00:58:14.760 in parts of
00:58:15.640 the secret
00:58:16.140 between fact
00:58:17.560 and fiction,
00:58:18.540 especially in
00:58:19.180 his fiction
00:58:19.560 works.
00:58:20.360 But what I'm
00:58:21.000 getting at is
00:58:21.620 from one of
00:58:22.300 the last
00:58:22.740 chapters of
00:58:23.880 The Keys of
00:58:24.540 This Blood,
00:58:25.640 Father Malachi
00:58:26.040 Martin says the
00:58:26.920 following, he
00:58:27.500 says, there
00:58:28.380 are three
00:58:28.800 dreadful outcomes
00:58:30.220 that are
00:58:30.800 possible after
00:58:32.720 John Paul
00:58:33.220 the Great
00:58:33.640 leaves the
00:58:34.600 scene in
00:58:35.600 the future.
00:58:36.520 And he
00:58:36.920 says, the
00:58:37.200 first possible
00:58:37.980 outcome is
00:58:39.340 the day when
00:58:40.240 a sizable
00:58:41.800 body of
00:58:42.520 clergy and
00:58:43.280 laity become
00:58:44.780 convinced,
00:58:45.700 rightly or
00:58:46.280 wrongly, that
00:58:47.820 the then
00:58:48.500 occupant of
00:58:49.460 the apostolic
00:58:50.180 throne of
00:58:50.640 Peter is
00:58:51.780 not, perhaps
00:58:53.140 never was,
00:58:54.500 a validly
00:58:55.280 elected Pope.
00:58:57.120 And that
00:58:57.840 kind of scares
00:58:58.360 me because
00:58:58.800 maybe that's
00:58:59.580 in the third
00:58:59.980 secret.
00:59:00.680 In fact,
00:59:01.360 Father Malachi
00:59:01.760 Martin, when
00:59:02.360 he addressed
00:59:02.780 an audience
00:59:03.380 in Detroit,
00:59:04.080 Michigan in
00:59:04.780 1989, he
00:59:06.420 said, quote,
00:59:07.600 we're facing
00:59:08.420 what we may
00:59:09.120 have to face,
00:59:10.460 finally, the
00:59:11.540 false Pope.
00:59:13.820 And of
00:59:14.060 course, there's
00:59:14.540 the, Peter
00:59:16.140 Seewald in one
00:59:17.240 of his
00:59:17.480 interviews with
00:59:18.280 Pope Benedict
00:59:18.840 talks to him
00:59:20.100 about the
00:59:20.420 prophecy of
00:59:20.980 Malachi, because
00:59:22.200 according to
00:59:22.600 the prophecy of
00:59:23.240 Malachi, the
00:59:24.960 glory of the
00:59:25.820 olive is the
00:59:27.280 Pope that
00:59:27.880 Pope Ratzinger
00:59:28.960 would represent.
00:59:29.960 And then
00:59:30.960 after him is
00:59:31.820 supposed to be a
00:59:32.400 terrible time of
00:59:33.120 tribulation and
00:59:34.000 perhaps even an
00:59:34.820 antipope until
00:59:36.080 Peter the Roman
00:59:36.920 comes and
00:59:38.560 sets things
00:59:39.340 straight.
00:59:40.560 And so
00:59:41.120 Peter Seewald
00:59:41.960 says to
00:59:42.640 Papa Benedetto,
00:59:44.480 is it possible
00:59:45.420 that you are the
00:59:46.300 last Pope or
00:59:47.460 at least the
00:59:48.040 last Pope of
00:59:48.820 a certain era?
00:59:50.680 And Benedict
00:59:51.820 says, yes,
00:59:53.220 anything could
00:59:53.900 happen.
00:59:54.740 It could be
00:59:55.340 true.
00:59:56.540 So there's a
00:59:58.500 lot of things
00:59:59.020 that need to
00:59:59.420 be investigated
01:00:00.120 is the way I
01:00:00.740 would put it.
01:00:02.260 Yeah, that
01:00:03.340 prophecy of
01:00:05.200 St. Malachi is
01:00:06.820 very fascinating.
01:00:08.040 In fact, I
01:00:09.280 remember way
01:00:10.760 back in the
01:00:11.560 90s still being
01:00:13.000 in the church
01:00:14.120 of St. Paul
01:00:14.720 outside the
01:00:15.140 walls in Rome.
01:00:16.680 And at the
01:00:17.240 time, they
01:00:18.060 had the images
01:00:19.200 of the Popes
01:00:20.140 all along the
01:00:21.380 ceiling, just
01:00:22.620 below the
01:00:23.540 ceiling, actually.
01:00:24.120 And it sort
01:00:25.240 of lined the
01:00:25.880 whole church
01:00:26.480 all the way
01:00:27.100 around.
01:00:27.440 You could
01:00:27.720 watch it.
01:00:28.860 And after
01:00:29.820 JP II's
01:00:30.680 image, there
01:00:31.780 was only
01:00:32.140 space for
01:00:33.060 two more.
01:00:34.280 And it was
01:00:34.980 based on the
01:00:36.020 prophecies of
01:00:37.800 St. Malachi.
01:00:39.300 And when I
01:00:41.040 went back
01:00:41.360 later, after
01:00:43.120 the election
01:00:43.580 of Benedict,
01:00:44.740 and actually
01:00:45.620 it was right
01:00:46.360 after Francis'
01:00:47.020 election, I
01:00:47.640 noticed that
01:00:48.040 they had made
01:00:48.360 a second row
01:00:48.960 and moved
01:00:49.300 them all
01:00:49.500 around, so
01:00:49.860 that was
01:00:50.120 room for
01:00:50.920 lots and
01:00:51.220 lots more.
01:00:52.060 But it was
01:00:52.560 still fascinating.
01:00:54.120 That after
01:00:54.740 JP II, there
01:00:55.620 was only two
01:00:56.040 spots left, one
01:00:56.780 of course taken
01:00:57.240 by Ratzinger, and
01:00:58.560 then after that
01:00:59.040 just one more.
01:01:00.160 And it's Peter
01:01:00.640 the Roman, of
01:01:01.540 course, in
01:01:02.460 terms of
01:01:02.880 Catholic
01:01:03.100 prophecy.
01:01:04.220 But I always
01:01:05.100 found that
01:01:05.520 stunning and
01:01:06.380 wondered what
01:01:07.720 it meant.
01:01:08.620 But this is
01:01:10.320 truly a
01:01:10.640 fascinating time
01:01:11.200 in the
01:01:11.380 church.
01:01:12.260 You've been
01:01:12.960 selected in a
01:01:15.120 way, or called
01:01:15.640 to do something
01:01:17.040 really unique
01:01:17.620 here in
01:01:18.200 bringing out
01:01:18.800 this thesis,
01:01:19.420 even though
01:01:21.060 it, I
01:01:21.800 know, has
01:01:22.320 cost you
01:01:23.200 a lot.
01:01:24.700 God bless
01:01:25.240 you for what
01:01:25.540 you're doing.
01:01:26.540 And let's
01:01:27.280 see how
01:01:27.760 God works
01:01:29.160 to bring
01:01:30.800 clarity to
01:01:31.380 our current
01:01:31.840 Mass.
01:01:32.980 God's will, it's
01:01:33.660 in our
01:01:33.900 Lady's hands,
01:01:34.560 our Lord's
01:01:34.980 hands, and we
01:01:35.720 work and pray
01:01:36.340 for the triumph
01:01:36.940 of the Immaculate
01:01:37.440 Heart of Mary.
01:01:39.080 Amen.
01:01:39.800 Thank you so
01:01:40.360 much, Dr.
01:01:40.800 Mazza, for being
01:01:41.260 with us.
01:01:42.020 Thank you,
01:01:42.400 John.
01:01:44.040 God bless all
01:01:44.800 of you, and
01:01:45.620 we'll see you
01:01:45.960 next time.
01:01:46.340 God bless all
01:01:50.620 you.