The John-Henry Westen Show - Unpacking Benedict's resignation： What if Francis isn't the pope after all？

00:00:00.000 In the church today, one of the most controversial questions is obviously about Pope Francis.

00:00:05.880 Well, one thing that just happened was Archbishop Vigano has come out with a statement openly questioning the resignation of Pope Benedict.

00:00:15.380 Now, that's a huge thing because what would that mean?

00:00:17.540 It would mean that if his resignation was invalid, the whole papacy of Francis would be not only in question, maybe totally invalid.

00:00:25.880 So there's huge implications here.

00:00:28.500 However, we have with us an expert in this.

00:00:31.960 In fact, I think the world's foremost expert in it.

00:00:35.060 His name is Dr. Mazai.

00:00:37.500 You're going to want to stay tuned.

00:00:38.800 This is the John Henry Weston Show.

00:00:58.500 Dr. Mazai, thank you for being with us.

00:01:03.160 Oh, it's a privilege.

00:01:05.340 Let's begin as you always do at the sign of the cross.

00:01:08.200 In the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost.

00:01:12.560 Amen.

00:01:13.120 Amen.

00:01:13.460 So, if I may call you Ed.

00:01:17.940 Please.

00:01:19.080 So, Ed, I mean, this is hugely controversial.

00:01:22.600 You are a noted professor.

00:01:24.740 You are an academician in the Catholic world, obviously a practicing Catholic.

00:01:28.920 You've put yourself out here in a big way.

00:01:33.680 But before we get into all that, I want to just give us, for our readers or viewers, some of your background.

00:01:40.020 Who is Ed Mazai and what are you doing now?

00:01:43.460 I am a professor of history.

00:01:47.420 I taught for 14 years at Azusa Pacific University here in Southern California, which was actually an evangelical school.

00:01:55.520 But they were quite tolerant of an uppity Catholic, traditional Catholic.

00:02:01.200 And I'm originally from New York.

00:02:03.560 I have a book with Angelico Press entitled The Scholastics and the Jews, 0.99

00:02:09.520 which is basically a book about St. Raymond of Penafort, sort of the father of canon law,

00:02:17.100 and one of the successors of St. Dominic, and his traditional dialogue and approach to non-Catholics.

00:02:26.560 So, I've studied outreaches to other religions, but in a traditional way, and also canon law.

00:02:34.560 And at the moment, I am teaching online courses.

00:02:38.140 For example, starting on Mercy Sunday, I'm offering a mini-course, Four Sundays on St. Augustine's Guide to Sanctity During Societal Collapse.

00:02:48.920 So, if the folks go to edmundmazza.com, they can check that out.

00:02:52.880 We're also doing a course this spring on the history of the church from 1966 to 2016.

00:02:58.440 But basically, nothing happened during that time.

00:03:00.300 Nothing at all.

00:03:01.560 Very apropos for our times.

00:03:03.560 So, tell me, I mean, yours is a background steeped in faith, in academia.

00:03:11.940 And yet, what you've proposed has, I'm sure, gotten you a lot of flack.

00:03:18.300 It has.

00:03:20.660 And, of course, I want to stress that I may not be able to tell people who the Pope is, because, after all, I'm not a biologist.

00:03:29.640 But I do have the Mazza hypothesis.

00:03:35.260 And as a layperson, I would never have ventured into this territory if it weren't for good pastors who kind of pointed me in that direction.

00:03:43.200 And I'll just name a few names.

00:03:46.120 In the fall of 2018, Monsignor Nicola Bux, it's spelled B-U-X, a friend of Ratzinger, a member of the Coria, a priest for 50 years, he came out and said in an interview with, I believe, Aldo Maria Vali in October of 2018.

00:04:06.480 And they were discussing this terrible situation in the church under Francis.

00:04:12.040 And Monsignor Bux said, I think we need to do an investigation of Benedict's resignation.

00:04:19.660 So, being a scholar, I decided to stick my nose into it.

00:04:24.780 Also, I must say, I consider myself to be a spiritual son of the late, great Father Nicholas Gruner.

00:04:31.520 It's going to be seven years now this month, next week, since we lost him.

00:04:35.200 And I still remember in the late 1980s in high school, my mother gave me a copy of the Fatima Crusader.

00:04:43.320 And so I've been following the message of Our Lady of Fatima ever since.

00:04:47.220 And I think Father Gruner was right when he said that the full third secret was not revealed, that the consecration of Russia to Our Lady had not yet happened, has not yet happened.

00:04:59.700 And now, I don't know that many people know this, but there's a video out there, I can give you the link, of Father Gruner in the fall of 2014.

00:05:10.320 That's pretty early.

00:05:11.700 Fall of 2014 telling people that because Pope Benedict did not specifically renounce his munis, therefore he didn't renounce the papacy at all.

00:05:22.460 And wherever he went, like for example, he went to Ireland for St. Patrick's Day, 2015, everybody he met, he said, look, this is Father Gruner talking, Francis is not the Pope, and Pope Benedict is still the Pope.

00:05:39.040 And now, as you say-

00:05:39.920 Let's just watch a little clip of that right now, and then I'm going to get your take on it.

00:05:46.000 He says, very clearly, and you can read it for yourself, Benedict in his resignation says, I am not resigning the munis, M-U-N-U-S. 0.56

00:05:56.180 That means in Latin, it's the office.

00:05:59.300 Yet canon law, I think it's 332, if I got it correct, I can find it for you.

00:06:03.960 If I don't have it here, I most likely don't, I can send it to you.

00:06:06.420 But I have 332, which says, if a Pope were to resign, he must resign the munis.

00:06:11.440 So here you have canon law saying, to resign, you must resign the munis.

00:06:15.600 And here you have Pope Benedict saying, I'm not resigning the munis.

00:06:20.000 Now, to me, that's a principle that there's a contradiction here.

00:06:23.420 If you're resigning, you have to resign the munis, but he's saying, I'm not resigning the munis.

00:06:27.600 So whatever he's doing, he wasn't resigning the papacy.

00:06:29.640 And so as you saw in that clip, Father Gruner was analyzing the text of his renunciation, Pope Benedict's declaratio, which he issued on February 11th, 2013.

00:06:46.420 And so, of course, during our chat here, I'll go through a little bit of that to try to unpack it for the folks and explain why it's quite likely that the resignation was invalid.

00:07:00.740 Well, absolutely.

00:07:01.680 Here's actually a little clip of the somewhat filmed announcement by Pope Benedict and reaction from some of the cardinals.

00:07:11.500 Let's have a look at that.

00:07:12.180 Thank you.

00:07:42.180 Thank you.

00:08:12.180 Thank you.

00:08:14.180 Thank you.

00:08:16.180 Thank you.

00:08:18.180 Thank you.

00:08:48.180 So, Ed, if you can unpack for us what happened, what was said, and what do you make of it?

00:08:55.320 Yes, let's start with the what, because on my side of the fence, there's a bunch of people that have different theories as to the why, and I'll give you my best take on that as well.

00:09:07.800 But in terms of the what, but in terms of the what, people don't know this, but the Holy Father, the Roman Pontiff, whatever power he possesses, he possesses in virtue of his office.

00:09:21.140 This is what the first Vatican.

00:09:22.140 This is what the first Vatican.

00:09:23.140 This is what the first Vatican Council in 1870 teaches.

00:09:26.140 And it's what canon law teaches, and it's what canon law teaches, and it's what canon law teaches in canon 332 under the 1983 code of canon law, which governs the church today.

00:09:35.140 And in canon law, and in canon law, it says, and in canon law, it says, if it happens that the Roman pontiff resigns his office, it is required for validity that the resignation is made freely and properly manifested.

00:09:55.280 So what do we see there, there are three things, the first thing is that a papal resignation, as rare as it is, it could be invalid if he doesn't renounce his office, his, and the word in Latin is muniri in the text, which is in the original, it's munis.

00:10:18.900 And this is the text of the canon law, is that right?

00:10:21.160 Exactly. Canon 332.2. Again, I can give you the text. And again, it says, if it happens that the Roman pontiff resigns his munis, it's required for validity, meaning it's possible for it not to be valid, if it's not made freely, or if it's not properly manifested.

00:10:41.960 Well, I think on all three counts, there is ambiguity and problems. And so we can unpack that if you'd like.

00:10:50.160 Yeah, let's start. Wherever you wish to start from, I think we're going to save the why for later. And so we're really going to be looking at those two other parts.

00:11:01.300 Excellent. Excellent. So let me read from Pope Benedict's Declaratio. And I'll just read a few phrases here.

00:11:11.960 Now, what he just said there is that he's very well aware that the munis of the Roman pontiff is essentially a spiritual nature.

00:11:32.900 In other words, he's aware that this munis has an active element, words and deeds, but no less, it has a passive element of suffering and prayer.

00:12:00.560 And then, towards the end of his declaratio, he says,

00:12:06.700 He's recognizing his incapacity to keep doing this active ministry of words and deeds.

00:12:24.700 And so he says,

00:12:26.580 And then a little later, he says,

00:12:38.760 So what he did there is he did something odd.

00:12:44.220 He switched from using the expression munis hetrum, which he repeated again and again.

00:12:52.360 Which means what?

00:12:53.920 It means the office of Peter.

00:12:56.720 Okay.

00:12:57.340 And then he changed that at the end, you know, the money line in his declaratio is the renunciation.

00:13:05.480 And what he actually renounces is the ministerio episcopi romai, the ministry of the bishop of Rome.

00:13:15.320 So we have to ask ourselves, why did he replace munis with ministerium?

00:13:22.740 And why did he replace, you know, Petronum with episcopi romai?

00:13:29.580 And, you know, why change the way he was narrating things?

00:13:33.360 And I think there are, what he was essentially doing in that declaratio is that he, at the beginning of the declaratio, he says,

00:13:44.440 This munis is carried out in an active way through words and deeds.

00:13:49.440 And he's clearly not up for that anymore.

00:13:51.520 But it's also carried out by suffering and prayer.

00:13:55.820 Well, he can still do the suffering and the prayer.

00:13:57.980 So he hasn't renounced completely that munis.

00:14:02.420 That office, yeah.

00:14:03.840 That office.

00:14:04.740 But that's a problem.

00:14:06.140 Because that's the one little thing you have to do to resign from the papacy.

00:14:10.580 It's not that difficult.

00:14:12.080 According to canon law.

00:14:13.700 Yeah, exactly.

00:14:14.720 Exactly.

00:14:15.320 He has to resign the office.

00:14:18.100 And so we don't have that in the key phrase of the declaratio.

00:14:22.420 Now, the fact of the matter is, is that we have to understand Pope Benedict's use of the word munis in his declaratio with a whole controversy, John Henry, that's been going on for the last 60 years since Vatican II.

00:14:41.380 In my research, what I've uncovered is that many traditional Catholics are aware of, obviously, the problems with the new mass, the problems of the conciliar church with regard to the reception of Holy Communion, the problems of the conciliar church with regards to bishops' conferences and the teaching on human sexuality.

00:15:01.740 Well, I was surprised to learn that there's another crisis in the church, which most people are not aware of, you know, fighting a war on so many fronts, it's understandable that we're not going to be aware of everything.

00:15:12.840 But there's actually a crisis in ecclesiology.

00:15:17.160 Now, that's a fancy word for the church's theology of church.

00:15:22.640 And I can share a couple of quotes with you, if you'd like, from some professors regarding this unknown or not widely known crisis in the ecclesiology of the church, which actually, it seems, like everything else in the post-Vatican II world, has impacted maybe even the legitimacy of Papa Ratzinger's renunciation.

00:15:49.020 So let me give you a quote.

00:16:19.020 And Arietta's remarks are echoed by another professor.

00:16:49.000 In the Polish there, she's from the John Paul II Catholic University of Lublin.

00:16:54.720 And in her article, she says, the purpose of this article, this is from 2015, is the interpretation of the notion of munis in the constitution lumen gentium, right, from Vatican II.

00:17:10.000 And listen to what she says.

00:17:12.980 The Latin noun, munis, is an ambiguous word.

00:17:18.960 Full stop.

00:17:19.860 And she says, and she says, in the teaching of the Second Vatican Council, this word is presented up to 255 times.

00:17:27.300 And she goes through the various meanings of it.

00:17:29.740 It could mean office.

00:17:31.040 It could mean function.

00:17:32.540 It could mean service.

00:17:34.400 It could mean ministry.

00:17:35.880 And she says, she concludes, in many places, the translation of the constitution from the Latin language into the Polish language, both in 1968 and in 2002, are different.

00:17:50.180 And she says, this can cause not only problems of interpretation, but also doctrinal problems.

00:17:57.340 And so this is what I bring up to many people who say, well, ministerium, if you look it up in a Lewis and short Latin dictionary, it means the same thing as munis.

00:18:11.400 And according to the experts in canon law, that's not necessarily so.

00:18:18.060 In fact, if you'll indulge me a minute longer here, this is what Slavikowska has to say.

00:18:24.160 The term munis is most often analyzed in the literature with two others, oficium and ministerium.

00:18:33.920 And she says this, they are also synonymous with it, but at the same time, each of them can mean something different.

00:18:44.300 And this is the key phrase in her statement.

00:18:46.980 Their use, whether separate or synonymous, always depends on the context of the utterance, the author's intention, or the purpose for which they are used.

00:19:00.380 Hmm.

00:19:00.500 So if we want to know the author's intention, I would suggest that in addition to the declaratio of the Holy Father, that we also turn to his last general audience before he left the scene, as it were.

00:19:22.200 I could go into that if you'd like.

00:19:23.760 If you can, please, because here is where you will have some of the most contention.

00:19:29.740 It seemed clear from declarations of Pope Benedict that he was resigning somehow from the papacy.

00:19:40.780 And so this is the big, you know, counter-argument, I guess you'd say, you know, of people who say, wait a minute, wait a minute.

00:19:47.860 He's said over and over again that, no, he's resigned.

00:19:50.920 So what's the big contention here?

00:19:52.800 So my answer to the people who say that is that, you know, there are, John Henry, there are tens of thousands, maybe millions of couples in America and throughout the world who will swear up and down that they're married.

00:20:07.220 But it may be that there's a situation that was an impediment, and therefore they're not really married in the eyes of God, despite all their protestations.

00:20:17.600 In other words, if you don't, we're obviously not going to be able to go through all the conditions for a proper marriage, but there are conditions, and if those conditions are not met, then they're not really married in the eyes of God.

00:20:29.700 It's the same thing with resigning the office of the papacy.

00:20:33.660 In canon law, there's a term called substantial error, and substantial error normally comes up in marriage cases, because marriage is something that you have to enter into freely.

00:20:49.800 And if you don't, then it's not a marriage, and if you don't, then it's not a marriage.

00:20:53.500 That's one of the conditions.

00:20:55.840 Well, believe it or not, canon law, canon 188, says that when someone in the church resigns from their office, one of the things that would invalidate that resignation is something called substantial error.

00:21:13.160 It's when your intellect has an erroneous idea of the object that you're choosing, that your will is choosing.

00:21:24.960 Well, if your intellect presents an erroneous object to your will, and your will chooses it, your will is not free.

00:21:33.620 I'll give you a quick example, and then, if you'd like, we can jump into Benedict's last audience.

00:21:42.720 An example that we could give is this.

00:21:45.480 Let's say there's a man, and he will only marry, he stipulates, I will only marry an imperial Romanov princess, right, a daughter or granddaughter of the last czar of Russia, Nicholas II.

00:22:01.500 And so he's very happy, because he meets a girl named Natasha Romanova, and he marries her.

00:22:10.620 But guess what?

00:22:12.500 She's not really an imperial Romanov daughter or granddaughter.

00:22:18.780 She's actually from the Marvel Comics Avengers, right?

00:22:25.260 That would be called substantial error, because his intellect presented him with an object which he freely chose, but he didn't actually freely choose it because his intellect gave him an erroneous idea of it.

00:22:38.960 How do I apply this to Benedict?

00:22:41.020 It's very simple.

00:22:41.760 If Benedict thought he could resign the active ministry of the papacy, but somehow still remain papal and was able to offer up his sufferings and prayers in an ontological connection to the munis that belongs to St. Peter.

00:23:04.220 In other words, still as Pope.

00:23:06.320 Still as Pope in the passive sense, not in the active sense, you see.

00:23:13.920 Right, so he believed in some kind of bifurcation of the papacy.

00:23:18.220 It's a bifurcation.

00:23:19.140 See, this is where we get into the post-Vatican II problems, problematic theology or problematic ecclesiology.

00:23:26.680 And there have been books and articles, and I can rattle off names, but I don't want to confuse the folks since this is probably the first time they've been introduced to this.

00:23:40.200 So I'm going to try and break this down and make it real simple.

00:23:43.120 But maybe the best way to branch into that, to launch into that, is to read briefly from his last general audience, St. Peter's Square, the 27th of February, 2013.

00:23:57.180 And this is what he says.

00:23:58.380 I won't read the – I have the Italian in front of me, and I have the English in front of me.

00:24:02.200 I'll just stick with the English for the moment.

00:24:03.660 And what he did was the Holy Father was speaking about the anniversary we just celebrated last week.

00:24:11.840 His – you know, April 19th was the 17th anniversary of his election to the papacy.

00:24:17.580 And so in his last Wednesday audience, he was reflecting back on April 19th, 2005, when he accepted being the Roman pontiff.

00:24:27.920 And this is what he says.

00:24:29.220 He says, the always is also a forever.

00:24:34.240 Like, in other words, once he committed himself to becoming pope, it was a forever.

00:24:39.300 He says, quote, there's no longer a return to the private.

00:24:44.440 And this is the key phrase.

00:24:46.360 My decision to renounce the active exercise of the ministry does not revoke this.

00:24:55.300 Does not revoke what?

00:24:56.680 Notice he qualifies what he is renouncing.

00:25:17.280 He didn't say, I'm renouncing the munis.

00:25:21.440 He can't, because he still wants to do the passive exercise of the ministry, namely the prayer and the suffering.

00:25:30.140 But that's connected to the munis, to this ontological principle.

00:25:33.720 So he says, I do not return to private life, to a life of travel, meetings, receptions.

00:25:40.360 I do not abandon the cross, but remain in a new way with the crucified Lord.

00:25:47.460 Now, that's very interesting, because in 1977, he gave a speech in honor of Pope Paul VI, his 80th birthday, in which he repeatedly referred to the papacy as a cross.

00:26:00.660 And here, in 2013, we have Ratzinger saying, I don't abandon the cross.

00:26:08.120 And he goes on to say, I no longer carry the power of the office for the government of the church.

00:26:16.460 In other words, the active administration of the church.

00:26:18.780 But in the service of prayer, I remain, so to speak, in the precincts of St. Peter.

00:26:26.320 And then he finishes by saying, St. Benedict, whose name I bear as Pope, will be a great example to me in this.

00:26:35.240 He has shown us the way to a life which, active or passive, belongs totally to the work of God.

00:26:44.700 So, take us through there, if you would.

00:26:47.640 Where does that leave us, with regard to Benedict, Pope, not Pope?

00:26:54.520 Okay.

00:26:55.460 Well, let me inflict one more quote on you, because I think this is what really, it got my spider sense tingling.

00:27:02.660 Okay?

00:27:03.660 Pope Benedict has given interviews to his old friend and the journalist, Peter Sevald.

00:27:09.200 And one of those interviews was a full-length book.

00:27:13.600 It's called Benedict XVI, Last Testament.

00:27:17.380 And that came out, he did the interview in 2016.

00:27:19.780 It was published in 2017.

00:27:22.400 And Peter Sevald puts it, he basically throws the Holy Father's words from his declaratio right back at him and says the following.

00:27:31.980 Is a slowdown in the ability to perform reason enough to climb down from the chair of Peter.

00:27:43.120 And Benedict answers and says, one can make that accusation.

00:27:50.660 But it would be a functional misunderstanding.

00:27:54.960 Misunderstanding.

00:27:56.960 Accusation.

00:27:57.880 Seawald is only repeating to him what Benedict said in his declaratio, right?

00:28:05.860 It's a yes or no answer.

00:28:08.520 But Benedict does not give a yes or no answer to the question.

00:28:12.600 Instead, he says, the successor of Peter is not merely bound to a function.

00:28:20.160 The office enters into your very being.

00:28:24.340 In this regard, fulfilling a function is not the only criterion.

00:28:31.560 Well, this is what really got me interested in this question.

00:28:35.960 And so I researched.

00:28:38.720 I'm beginning to dream in German.

00:28:41.060 I've been going through so much of Joseph Ratzinger's works.

00:28:45.640 And I think I'm beginning to suffer from Stockholm Syndrome.

00:28:48.120 I'm going to start talking like Rahner and these other Nouvelle theologians, if you know what I mean.

00:28:56.640 But let me explain what he means by – or I'll try to explain what he means by functional misunderstanding.

00:29:04.440 See, Benedict characterizes Seawald's question as a functional misunderstanding, this idea that – well, let me just put it this way.

00:29:15.940 It's as if he's correcting Seawald for suggesting that Seawald has missed the transcendent component of the Petrine Munis, of the office.

00:29:29.040 The office enters into your very being, when Seawald somehow suggested that whenever Ratzinger is not actively leading the church, he's no longer papal.

00:29:41.020 But Benedict corrects him and says, the office enters into your very being, it's ontological, it's an always and a forever.

00:29:50.200 Now, this is interesting because I found a quote – I found more than one quote from Ratzinger where he explains the difference between something that's ontological and something that's functional.

00:30:00.300 For example, Benedict once criticized Martin Luther precisely for misunderstanding the difference between Munis as jurisdiction or function and Munis as rite or sacrament.

00:30:17.940 For example, Benedict says, for Luther, the priest does not transcend his role as preacher.

00:30:26.200 The consequent restriction to the word alone had as its logical outcome the pure functionality of the priesthood.

00:30:35.400 In other words, for Luther, the priesthood consisted exclusively in a particular activity.

00:30:43.820 And if that activity was missing, the ministry itself ceased to exist.

00:30:49.640 So, there was purposely no further mention of priesthood but only of office.

00:30:55.960 The assignment of this office was in itself a secular act.

00:31:00.140 But what Benedict is trying to say here is that I believe the way to understand his declaratio, his words at his last general audience, and his words to Seawald is that he's still papal even when he's not doing the active component or the functional component of what's traditionally understood to be the papacy.

00:31:26.460 Mm-hmm.

00:31:29.280 Yeah.

00:31:30.140 To be fair, I think there are a lot of indications that make things very confusing.

00:31:37.680 Benedict still wears white, the papal colors.

00:31:43.260 In fact, correct me if I'm wrong, but in the book, he's asked, why are you still wearing white?

00:31:48.840 And there seems to be some really lame excuse over there wasn't a cassock available for me.

00:31:53.160 There are no black cassocks available in Rome.

00:31:55.640 Did you know that, John Henry?

00:31:56.820 Yeah.

00:31:57.280 Yeah.

00:31:58.100 It's incredible.

00:31:58.940 That's obviously for people who might never have been in Rome, that might make them scratch their heads.

00:32:05.760 But for anybody who has been in Rome, that's very laughable because every corner you pass has some store full of sutans.

00:32:13.360 And so it's very strange indeed.

00:32:14.360 And so it's very strange indeed.

00:32:17.140 Another one of those things, he's still referred to as the Holy Father.

00:32:23.180 He, in fact, still signs with a papal signature.

00:32:25.340 In fact, Pope Francis refers to Pope Benedict as the Holy Father.

00:32:34.040 Very, very odd indeed.

00:32:36.720 So, and he hasn't left the walls of the Vatican.

00:32:40.620 He stays in the confines of the Vatican, as it were.

00:32:45.720 So, very strange indeed.

00:32:48.340 But continue, if you would.

00:32:50.600 Yes.

00:32:50.880 Well, you see, and you forgot to mention, he also gives apostolic blessings.

00:32:56.660 Can you give apostolic blessings, John Henry?

00:32:59.000 Can I?

00:33:00.360 That's reserved to the Pope alone.

00:33:02.140 So, what's going on here?

00:33:06.300 And what it is, is, is, again, Ratzinger has published many times his view, his ecclesiology.

00:33:18.060 Maybe the best way of putting this is to explain it this way.

00:33:21.420 Among the innovations of Vatican II, one of the major innovations was when Vatican II said

00:33:28.240 that bishops, when they are consecrated, when they receive the sacrament of ordination,

00:33:36.160 not only do they receive the power to, you know, confect the sacraments for the faithful,

00:33:43.100 which the church always taught, but Vatican II said something different, said something new.

00:33:48.580 They said that bishops, when they get consecrated, they also receive, through the sacrament,

00:33:54.540 the power to teach and to govern.

00:33:58.240 Now, for 800 years, that was thought to be something that is given to the bishop from the Holy Father.

00:34:07.340 In other words, it's something called missio canonica, or canonical mission.

00:34:12.040 And it's a grant of jurisdiction, which gives you the power to govern.

00:34:17.580 Now, so, Benedict, in a book that was published the year after the council, it's called Theological Insights of Vatican II.

00:34:32.340 In that book, Benedict Joseph Ratzinger goes to great lengths to explain that the council has moved past this medieval concept

00:34:47.580 where there is an office given to the church, which is a separate power from the power that's given to you when you're made a bishop, you see.

00:35:01.640 What Ratzinger and his – and he's not alone in this.

00:35:06.660 In fact, maybe the best way of explaining this, if you don't mind, I'll quote a friend of both of ours, Dr. Roberto Di Mattei,

00:35:14.520 who actually has taken issue with Ratzinger on this, and I think he explains it better than I can.

00:35:22.860 Roberto Di Mattei says,

00:35:24.100 Vatican Council II did not explicitly reject the traditional concept of power, potestas,

00:35:33.080 but what they did was they used different language.

00:35:35.660 They set it aside, replacing it with an equivocal new concept, that of munis.

00:35:43.540 He says Article 21 of Lumen Gentium, then, seems to teach that Episcopal consecration

00:35:50.460 confers not only the fullness of orders, but also the office of teaching and the office of governing.

00:36:00.020 Whereas, in the whole history of the church, the act of Episcopal consecration has been distinguished from that of appointment

00:36:07.180 or of the conferral of the canonical mission.

00:36:10.880 This ambiguity is consistent with the ecclesiology of the theologians of the council and post-council,

00:36:19.800 and Di Mattei names them.

00:36:22.140 Kanyar, Ratzinger, Dilubach, Balthasar, Rahner, Schillebex,

00:36:29.040 who presumed to reduce the mission of the church to a sacramental function

00:36:34.740 and scaling down its juridical aspects.

00:36:37.800 And he finishes by saying this, Ratzinger distanced himself from tradition

00:36:45.260 when he saw in the primacy of Peter the fullness of the apostolic ministry

00:36:52.260 linking the ministerial character to the sacramental.

00:36:58.020 So, let me put that in plain English.

00:37:00.320 There's a school of thought in the Catholic Church

00:37:03.240 which says that it's not the election of the Pope

00:37:09.200 that gives him or his acceptance of the election

00:37:12.580 that gives him his power.

00:37:15.820 It is by virtue of the fact that he has consecrated a bishop

00:37:20.360 because a layman, canon law, in fact, says

00:37:25.040 if someone is a layman or a priest or a deacon

00:37:29.140 and he's elected Pope,

00:37:30.960 he must immediately be consecrated a bishop.

00:37:35.180 Now, so there's this rift in the church

00:37:38.000 between those who say that the Pope gets his power

00:37:42.340 by Episcopal consecration

00:37:44.000 and those who say, no, he doesn't.

00:37:46.320 But if Ratzinger is truly among those

00:37:48.520 who say that the Pope gets it from Episcopal consecration,

00:37:51.400 well, as Professor Gerlanda,

00:37:55.340 the former head of the Gregorian University, points out,

00:37:58.780 if he got it through Episcopal consecration,

00:38:00.980 he can never lose it

00:38:02.520 because what we receive through a sacrament,

00:38:06.040 we never lose, you see?

00:38:08.380 So, that would explain, that would make perfect sense

00:38:11.640 why he still wears white, still lives in the Vatican,

00:38:15.640 still gives apostolic blessings,

00:38:17.260 why his own companion, Archbishop Georg Ganswine,

00:38:25.520 in a speech at the Greg in May 2016,

00:38:30.020 said that Benedict, both before and after his resignation,

00:38:36.100 still considers himself as participating

00:38:38.760 in the Petrine Munis.

00:38:41.900 He has not at all abandoned the office of Peter.

00:38:45.380 What he has done is he has courageously renewed it.

00:38:51.660 And those are, by the way,

00:38:53.040 I think those are direct quotes from Archbishop Ganswine,

00:38:55.400 are they not?

00:38:56.320 They are, and this is the problem.

00:38:59.160 What if Ratzinger's ecclesiology is wrong?

00:39:04.960 I mean, the post-conciliar church 0.99

00:39:07.420 couldn't get the mass right.

00:39:10.480 They can't seem to get the reception

00:39:12.340 of Holy Communion right.

00:39:13.920 They can't seem to get a whole host of things right.

00:39:18.420 We're supposed to believe that they managed somehow

00:39:20.960 to get papal resignations correct,

00:39:22.960 or the theology of the church correct.

00:39:26.840 Again, as Di Mattei points out,

00:39:29.140 and others have pointed out,

00:39:30.680 this is a new way,

00:39:32.320 a novel way,

00:39:33.380 of looking at bishops and their power.

00:39:37.360 And if you can't,

00:39:40.880 in other words,

00:39:41.700 if this is what I'm arguing,

00:39:43.380 this is the Maza hypothesis,

00:39:45.100 if Joseph Ratzinger thought

00:39:47.360 that he could somehow

00:39:48.940 leave the active

00:39:51.720 governance of the church,

00:39:54.560 the active ministry,

00:39:55.940 but still participate ontologically

00:39:58.280 in the Munis,

00:40:00.300 if he could still hold on

00:40:02.180 to some aspect of the papacy,

00:40:03.880 then he didn't really renounce the papacy.

00:40:05.920 Because if you're going to renounce the papacy,

00:40:07.580 traditionally speaking,

00:40:08.600 you have to renounce the whole thing.

00:40:10.520 It's like that old Frank Sinatra song,

00:40:12.780 all or nothing at all,

00:40:14.680 if you know what I mean.

00:40:17.120 It's very interesting,

00:40:18.340 especially in light of his predecessor as well.

00:40:21.380 Because here he is talking about

00:40:23.740 his incapacity to do the functions,

00:40:28.060 the active ministry, if you will.

00:40:30.600 Yet his own predecessor,

00:40:31.680 we all watched,

00:40:33.940 those of us who are,

00:40:35.460 let's say,

00:40:36.540 you know,

00:40:37.540 older than 35,

00:40:39.640 still remember John Paul II,

00:40:41.280 especially in his last years,

00:40:43.160 where you could arguably say

00:40:45.940 he could not function

00:40:47.940 in terms of an active ministry.

00:40:51.140 We remember him for years,

00:40:52.660 shaking with Parkinson's,

00:40:54.240 for being able barely to stand.

00:40:56.500 I remember when he was in Toronto

00:40:58.540 in the early 90s,

00:41:00.600 you know,

00:41:01.440 lifting up our Lord in Holy Communion

00:41:03.760 in front of all the people,

00:41:05.340 but he was hunched over so much

00:41:06.880 he could barely move.

00:41:08.600 It was such a moving portrayal of suffering,

00:41:12.060 and yet continuing in this office

00:41:15.320 until his death.

00:41:17.640 Like every father,

00:41:19.060 you don't renounce your family

00:41:21.040 because you're too old.

00:41:22.060 You struggle and continue

00:41:23.620 unto death into it.

00:41:25.180 When Pope John Paul II

00:41:27.020 was in Toronto,

00:41:29.260 there's a famous exchange

00:41:31.180 with Conrad Black.

00:41:32.040 He apparently visited his house,

00:41:34.240 and Black asked about that,

00:41:36.400 just that,

00:41:37.080 hey,

00:41:37.440 what about,

00:41:38.140 you know,

00:41:38.460 retiring?

00:41:39.460 And John Paul II

00:41:40.600 famously responded,

00:41:42.560 there is no such thing

00:41:43.440 as a Pope Emeritus.

00:41:45.660 And yet,

00:41:46.700 here we have this situation

00:41:48.080 from John Paul II's successor,

00:41:50.640 who's basically done this,

00:41:54.740 made a so-called Pope Emeritus,

00:41:57.480 but at the same time,

00:41:58.400 as you're pointing out,

00:42:00.200 his intention wasn't fully that.

00:42:02.360 It wasn't to renounce it fully

00:42:04.180 because he sees that

00:42:04.900 that can't be done fully,

00:42:06.520 or at least in his thought

00:42:08.080 it can't be done fully.

00:42:09.820 And so he couldn't have done it,

00:42:11.660 as you were saying about

00:42:12.760 what his intent actually was

00:42:15.160 and what does that mean

00:42:15.740 for the resignation that was.

00:42:17.740 Yes,

00:42:19.220 if,

00:42:19.720 you know,

00:42:20.660 actions speak louder

00:42:21.680 than words,

00:42:23.340 the fact that he chose

00:42:24.860 to be

00:42:25.500 Pope Emeritus

00:42:27.520 of Rome,

00:42:28.760 that he wears white,

00:42:29.880 that he gives apostolic blessings,

00:42:32.100 that corroborates,

00:42:33.620 you know,

00:42:33.760 this external evidence

00:42:34.880 corroborates

00:42:35.680 our reading

00:42:36.720 of his declaratio,

00:42:39.160 of his statement

00:42:40.420 at the last Wednesday audience,

00:42:42.660 his answers to Seawald,

00:42:44.520 his statements

00:42:46.540 that he's made

00:42:47.480 about ecclesiology

00:42:48.640 over the last 60 years.

00:42:50.600 But I'll add this,

00:42:52.480 this innovation

00:42:54.600 of a Pope Emeritus,

00:42:56.920 you know,

00:42:57.060 it's one thing

00:42:57.480 to be a Bishop Emeritus.

00:42:59.260 They didn't exist

00:43:00.240 until after Vatican II.

00:43:01.980 But the idea

00:43:02.800 with a Bishop Emeritus

00:43:03.840 is that

00:43:04.980 he no longer

00:43:06.200 has the active governance

00:43:07.840 of a diocese.

00:43:09.400 so he's emeritus.

00:43:12.980 But he's still a bishop.

00:43:15.460 And so he's Bishop Emeritus.

00:43:17.420 But in the case

00:43:18.380 of a Holy Father

00:43:19.780 who retires,

00:43:22.400 he can't be,

00:43:24.720 if he gives up

00:43:26.100 the active exercise,

00:43:27.860 you could say

00:43:28.680 he's emeritus,

00:43:29.960 but then he would still

00:43:31.140 be Pope,

00:43:31.840 as it were.

00:43:33.620 He's not,

00:43:34.460 or another way

00:43:34.920 of putting this

00:43:35.600 is,

00:43:37.100 because I did

00:43:37.900 some deep research

00:43:39.160 into this

00:43:39.820 two years ago

00:43:40.900 after I was on

00:43:41.980 the Dr. Taylor Marshall show.

00:43:44.260 I had read

00:43:45.300 that there's

00:43:46.240 a theological opinion

00:43:47.420 that perhaps

00:43:49.900 a Pope,

00:43:50.840 for a very grave reason,

00:43:52.760 could separate

00:43:53.540 the office

00:43:55.000 of Vicar of Christ

00:43:56.240 from the Bishop of Rome.

00:43:59.280 Because, of course,

00:44:00.180 Peter was the Bishop

00:44:01.260 of Antioch

00:44:02.080 and still was the Pope

00:44:03.640 before he was

00:44:04.320 Bishop of Rome.

00:44:05.220 In fact,

00:44:05.560 he was still

00:44:05.980 the Vicar of Christ

00:44:06.780 even before he was

00:44:07.720 the Bishop of Antioch.

00:44:10.160 And according

00:44:11.120 to Vatican I,

00:44:12.500 they decided

00:44:13.140 not to solve

00:44:14.060 the issue.

00:44:14.840 And so it is

00:44:15.380 legitimate,

00:44:16.320 although it's

00:44:16.700 a minority opinion

00:44:17.700 among the theologians,

00:44:19.240 that a Holy Father

00:44:21.180 under grave circumstances

00:44:22.320 could separate

00:44:24.860 the office

00:44:25.980 of Vicar of Christ

00:44:27.120 from the Diocese

00:44:28.460 of Rome,

00:44:28.920 from the Episcopacy

00:44:29.660 of Rome.

00:44:30.400 But let me play

00:44:31.280 devil's advocate.

00:44:32.300 Let's say that

00:44:32.820 the majority

00:44:33.460 of theologians

00:44:35.080 are correct

00:44:35.720 and you cannot

00:44:36.600 separate them.

00:44:37.720 what would that

00:44:40.100 entail?

00:44:41.560 If being

00:44:43.140 Vicar of Christ

00:44:44.060 is inseparable

00:44:45.060 from being

00:44:46.340 the Bishop

00:44:47.100 of Rome,

00:44:47.840 if you become

00:44:49.460 Bishop Emeritus

00:44:50.720 of Rome,

00:44:51.680 what would you

00:44:52.640 automatically become?

00:44:56.540 Well,

00:44:57.460 you'd become

00:44:57.920 not only

00:44:59.420 Bishop Emeritus,

00:45:01.300 you'd become

00:45:02.020 Vicar of Christ

00:45:03.340 Emeritus.

00:45:04.120 doesn't that

00:45:04.840 logically follow?

00:45:05.580 If being

00:45:06.400 the Bishop

00:45:07.780 of Rome

00:45:08.320 automatically makes

00:45:09.500 you Vicar

00:45:09.860 of Christ

00:45:10.420 and the two

00:45:11.600 are indissoluble,

00:45:13.760 then if you claim

00:45:14.580 to be the Bishop

00:45:15.360 Emeritus of Rome,

00:45:16.620 you must simultaneously

00:45:17.880 be claiming

00:45:18.760 to be the Vicar

00:45:19.500 of Christ

00:45:20.140 Emeritus. 0.94

00:45:21.180 What the heck

00:45:21.920 is a Vicar 0.79

00:45:23.300 of Christ

00:45:23.960 Emeritus?

00:45:24.540 That would

00:45:25.380 mean that

00:45:26.460 somehow

00:45:26.840 the current

00:45:28.040 occupant of

00:45:28.820 the chair

00:45:29.280 and Ratzinger

00:45:32.560 would somehow

00:45:33.520 be sharing

00:45:34.340 in the spiritual

00:45:35.900 office of the Vicar

00:45:36.920 of Christ.

00:45:37.880 And actually,

00:45:38.700 the church has

00:45:39.320 come out and

00:45:39.860 declared that

00:45:40.460 to be

00:45:40.780 heterodoxy.

00:45:41.640 Back at the

00:45:42.480 time of the

00:45:43.500 Jansenist crisis

00:45:45.720 in the 1600s,

00:45:48.380 the Pope

00:45:48.980 came out

00:45:49.480 with a statement,

00:45:50.820 a magisterial

00:45:51.600 statement,

00:45:52.480 saying that

00:45:53.500 you can't

00:45:54.040 have more

00:45:54.800 than one

00:45:55.240 person sharing

00:45:56.840 in the power

00:45:57.720 of the Vicar

00:45:58.540 of Christ,

00:45:59.080 of the papacy.

00:46:01.000 So again,

00:46:02.680 the very fact

00:46:04.160 that he's

00:46:04.800 come up

00:46:05.320 with this

00:46:05.700 novel thing,

00:46:07.540 Pope Emeritus,

00:46:08.800 if that

00:46:11.280 doesn't jive

00:46:12.160 with the

00:46:13.260 actual

00:46:13.680 ontological

00:46:14.360 reality of

00:46:15.140 the church,

00:46:15.520 as I explained,

00:46:16.580 how can you

00:46:17.120 be Pope

00:46:17.520 Emeritus and

00:46:18.260 not simultaneously

00:46:19.620 be claiming

00:46:20.380 to be Vicar

00:46:21.000 of Christ

00:46:21.460 Emeritus?

00:46:22.580 And the

00:46:23.120 church has

00:46:23.440 already condemned

00:46:24.160 that notion,

00:46:25.420 then again,

00:46:26.340 it points

00:46:26.980 to a

00:46:27.400 substantial

00:46:27.880 error in

00:46:29.220 his mind

00:46:29.920 when he

00:46:31.100 resigned,

00:46:31.700 in the

00:46:31.980 object that

00:46:32.560 he chose.

00:46:33.400 That would

00:46:33.980 mean that

00:46:34.520 his will

00:46:35.020 was not

00:46:35.880 free.

00:46:37.040 So if we

00:46:37.460 go back to

00:46:37.920 Canon 330

00:46:38.760 2.2,

00:46:40.740 what are

00:46:41.080 the three

00:46:41.360 things that

00:46:41.780 can invalidate

00:46:42.680 a papal

00:46:43.300 resignation?

00:46:44.400 One,

00:46:44.780 if he

00:46:45.020 doesn't

00:46:45.340 renounce

00:46:45.720 the

00:46:45.920 munis.

00:46:46.820 Well,

00:46:46.960 you can

00:46:47.160 read the

00:46:47.460 declaratio,

00:46:48.360 he never

00:46:48.780 actually

00:46:49.260 renounced

00:46:49.820 the

00:46:50.280 munis.

00:46:51.440 Two,

00:46:52.100 what can

00:46:52.340 also

00:46:52.720 invalidate

00:46:53.820 a papal

00:46:55.060 resignation?

00:46:56.000 If it's

00:46:56.680 not manifested

00:46:57.420 properly?

00:46:59.320 Well,

00:46:59.640 there's so

00:47:00.040 much confusion

00:47:00.720 over the

00:47:01.300 language,

00:47:02.400 and we

00:47:02.700 have scholars

00:47:03.300 testifying to

00:47:04.180 that about

00:47:05.380 munis and

00:47:05.960 office and

00:47:06.540 ministerium,

00:47:07.320 and there's

00:47:07.900 so much

00:47:08.220 ambiguity

00:47:08.700 in his

00:47:09.320 statement

00:47:09.960 and in

00:47:10.580 his further

00:47:12.140 clarifications on

00:47:13.320 the subject

00:47:13.720 that I think

00:47:15.100 it's arguable

00:47:15.820 that his

00:47:16.380 resignation was

00:47:17.200 not manifested

00:47:17.880 properly.

00:47:18.980 And what's

00:47:19.260 the third

00:47:19.620 thing that

00:47:20.460 can invalidate

00:47:21.800 a papal

00:47:22.720 resignation?

00:47:23.680 If it was

00:47:24.240 not done

00:47:24.660 freely?

00:47:25.500 Now,

00:47:25.700 when people

00:47:26.040 hear that,

00:47:26.580 they think,

00:47:27.020 well,

00:47:27.300 somebody has

00:47:28.240 to put a

00:47:28.580 gun to 0.96

00:47:28.940 somebody's 1.00

00:47:29.360 head,

00:47:29.680 and then

00:47:29.960 they're

00:47:30.060 not free.

00:47:31.020 That's

00:47:31.400 not what

00:47:31.680 I'm suggesting,

00:47:35.460 although I

00:47:35.880 think we

00:47:36.120 should look

00:47:36.460 into the

00:47:37.220 Communist Party

00:47:37.820 of China

00:47:38.300 and other

00:47:38.960 aspects,

00:47:39.820 the pressures

00:47:40.360 that were

00:47:40.680 put on

00:47:41.360 Benedict.

00:47:42.080 As you

00:47:42.360 remember,

00:47:42.900 there were

00:47:43.080 tremendous

00:47:43.440 pressures being

00:47:44.060 put on

00:47:44.380 Benedict at

00:47:44.820 that time.

00:47:45.240 I wouldn't

00:47:45.860 want to

00:47:46.080 rule out

00:47:46.440 the possibility

00:47:47.100 of some

00:47:47.620 heavy-handedness

00:47:48.300 between the

00:47:48.720 New World

00:47:48.980 Order and

00:47:49.840 the traitors

00:47:52.000 in the

00:47:52.280 church with

00:47:52.880 regard to

00:47:53.740 the resignation

00:47:54.140 of Benedict.

00:47:55.000 But putting

00:47:55.340 all that

00:47:55.660 aside,

00:47:56.960 as I

00:47:57.180 say,

00:47:57.920 Canon 188

00:47:59.600 says that

00:48:00.680 a resignation

00:48:01.660 due to

00:48:02.620 substantial error

00:48:03.840 is automatically

00:48:04.740 invalid by the

00:48:05.740 law itself.

00:48:07.020 And so,

00:48:07.400 if he had

00:48:08.100 a messed-up

00:48:09.160 notion,

00:48:09.700 an erroneous

00:48:10.240 notion of

00:48:11.280 what he was

00:48:11.940 renouncing or

00:48:12.640 half-renouncing

00:48:13.740 or whatever,

00:48:14.220 his will

00:48:15.640 was not

00:48:16.080 free.

00:48:17.200 And so,

00:48:17.720 I think

00:48:18.480 the three

00:48:19.460 possibilities

00:48:20.600 for invalidation

00:48:21.600 are there,

00:48:22.580 and that's

00:48:22.840 why I think

00:48:23.220 Archbishop

00:48:23.680 Vigano is

00:48:24.700 right to

00:48:25.740 say,

00:48:25.980 look,

00:48:26.140 before the

00:48:26.560 next

00:48:26.760 conclave,

00:48:28.140 we've

00:48:28.480 got to

00:48:28.700 get this

00:48:29.020 straight.

00:48:29.440 We have

00:48:29.700 to have

00:48:30.320 an

00:48:30.420 objective

00:48:30.780 investigation

00:48:31.320 of this.

00:48:34.080 One

00:48:34.560 question

00:48:34.920 before we

00:48:35.520 get to

00:48:36.040 the why,

00:48:36.560 because I

00:48:36.800 do want

00:48:37.020 to hit

00:48:37.220 that right

00:48:37.580 before we

00:48:37.960 end.

00:48:39.120 This

00:48:39.440 question

00:48:39.760 comes

00:48:40.120 actually

00:48:40.520 from

00:48:40.720 Professor

00:48:41.080 de Maté,

00:48:41.720 who you

00:48:42.160 quoted

00:48:42.420 before.

00:48:42.900 As you

00:48:43.080 know,

00:48:43.280 we go

00:48:44.120 back quite

00:48:45.420 a ways.

00:48:46.680 One of the

00:48:47.140 things he

00:48:47.440 mentioned to

00:48:47.960 me was,

00:48:49.280 well,

00:48:49.640 if Ratzinger

00:48:50.600 had such

00:48:52.340 a distorted

00:48:53.400 view of

00:48:53.880 the papacy

00:48:54.580 and his

00:48:56.280 resignation

00:48:56.740 is perhaps

00:48:58.360 invalid because

00:48:59.120 of that,

00:49:00.400 would his

00:49:01.000 own acceptance

00:49:01.740 of the

00:49:02.540 papacy

00:49:03.120 way back

00:49:04.340 in 2005

00:49:05.040 also be

00:49:06.760 affected by

00:49:07.480 having it

00:49:10.780 wrong in

00:49:11.040 the first

00:49:11.240 place?

00:49:12.960 That's

00:49:13.360 an excellent

00:49:13.680 question.

00:49:15.540 Now,

00:49:16.020 on the

00:49:16.200 surface

00:49:16.480 of it,

00:49:17.080 people who

00:49:17.640 think

00:49:17.840 Benedict

00:49:18.140 is still

00:49:18.540 the

00:49:18.680 pope or

00:49:19.020 likely

00:49:19.520 still

00:49:19.900 the

00:49:20.060 pope,

00:49:20.820 they

00:49:21.040 take a

00:49:21.540 question

00:49:21.800 like that

00:49:22.200 and it

00:49:22.420 sounds like

00:49:22.780 the question,

00:49:23.260 are you

00:49:23.460 still beating 0.95

00:49:23.880 your wife? 0.92

00:49:25.580 But I'll

00:49:27.060 venture an

00:49:27.540 answer,

00:49:27.880 and the

00:49:28.020 answer is

00:49:28.300 pretty

00:49:28.460 simple.

00:49:29.280 When

00:49:29.560 Benedict

00:49:29.920 accepted

00:49:30.540 the

00:49:30.740 papacy,

00:49:31.660 he didn't

00:49:32.400 reserve

00:49:32.880 anything.

00:49:33.720 He didn't

00:49:34.040 add any

00:49:36.100 technicalities

00:49:36.960 or qualifications

00:49:37.980 or reservations

00:49:38.680 to it.

00:49:39.140 He just

00:49:39.400 simply accepted

00:49:40.080 it.

00:49:40.980 Therefore,

00:49:41.480 that's fine.

00:49:42.440 That's fine

00:49:43.160 and dandy.

00:49:44.160 The problem

00:49:44.880 is that if

00:49:45.880 you want to

00:49:46.260 resign the

00:49:46.740 papacy,

00:49:47.940 it's kind

00:49:48.300 of like

00:49:48.460 President

00:49:48.760 Nixon.

00:49:50.000 In one

00:49:50.680 sentence,

00:49:51.440 he resigned

00:49:52.000 the office

00:49:52.540 of the

00:49:52.820 presidency

00:49:53.180 of the

00:49:53.540 United

00:49:53.680 States.

00:49:54.500 He said,

00:49:54.880 I hereby

00:49:55.280 renounce

00:49:55.640 the office

00:49:56.020 of the

00:49:56.280 presidency

00:49:56.600 of the

00:49:56.900 United

00:49:57.040 States.

00:49:57.760 If

00:49:57.960 Benedict

00:49:58.220 had done

00:49:58.580 that,

00:49:58.820 there'd be

00:49:59.000 nothing for

00:49:59.340 you and

00:49:59.540 me to

00:49:59.740 talk

00:49:59.980 about.

00:50:01.720 The problem

00:50:03.620 is when

00:50:04.220 your intellect

00:50:06.180 has an

00:50:07.300 idea of

00:50:08.200 the papacy

00:50:08.860 that you

00:50:09.560 can somehow

00:50:10.200 renounce

00:50:10.780 the active

00:50:11.420 part of

00:50:11.940 it,

00:50:12.680 but still

00:50:13.320 ontologically,

00:50:14.920 metaphysically

00:50:15.800 participate in

00:50:17.580 the platonic

00:50:18.420 form of

00:50:20.240 Pope,

00:50:21.100 with a

00:50:21.400 capital

00:50:21.700 P,

00:50:22.620 mystically.

00:50:24.740 If that's

00:50:25.740 your thought

00:50:26.660 pattern and

00:50:27.580 you choose

00:50:28.060 that,

00:50:28.380 then your

00:50:28.600 will is

00:50:28.880 not really

00:50:29.260 free if

00:50:29.760 it chooses

00:50:30.060 something

00:50:30.360 that's

00:50:30.560 erroneous.

00:50:32.720 For

00:50:33.520 instance,

00:50:34.220 had he

00:50:34.580 just said

00:50:35.380 simply,

00:50:36.360 like

00:50:36.720 President

00:50:37.020 Nixon

00:50:37.320 did,

00:50:38.240 I

00:50:38.500 resign

00:50:38.840 the

00:50:39.020 office

00:50:39.240 of

00:50:39.360 the

00:50:39.460 papacy,

00:50:40.540 that

00:50:40.920 would be

00:50:41.160 done

00:50:41.340 whether

00:50:41.560 or not

00:50:42.000 he

00:50:42.220 thought

00:50:42.560 differently

00:50:43.000 about it.

00:50:45.200 Off the

00:50:47.220 top of

00:50:47.500 my head,

00:50:48.080 I would

00:50:48.380 say it's

00:50:49.080 kind of

00:50:49.340 like when

00:50:49.960 the minister

00:50:52.040 gives the

00:50:52.880 Eucharist,

00:50:53.600 or when

00:50:53.880 the priest

00:50:54.700 does

00:50:55.200 baptism,

00:50:56.160 or even

00:50:56.620 when a

00:50:56.900 Protestant

00:50:57.320 gives

00:50:57.980 somebody

00:50:58.360 baptism.

00:50:59.700 The

00:50:59.820 church

00:51:00.100 says

00:51:00.600 that

00:51:01.980 as long

00:51:02.800 as he

00:51:03.060 intends

00:51:03.860 to do

00:51:04.360 what the

00:51:04.780 church

00:51:05.040 intends

00:51:05.400 to do,

00:51:06.620 it's

00:51:07.240 valid,

00:51:07.680 as long

00:51:07.940 as he

00:51:08.120 uses the

00:51:08.520 right words.

00:51:09.620 And it

00:51:09.920 doesn't really

00:51:10.340 matter if

00:51:10.820 he has

00:51:11.100 his theology

00:51:11.880 completely

00:51:12.380 together.

00:51:14.320 So I

00:51:15.080 would say

00:51:15.460 is that

00:51:15.800 if

00:51:16.240 Benedict

00:51:17.120 used the

00:51:18.800 right words,

00:51:19.500 I mean,

00:51:19.960 Canon

00:51:20.220 332.2

00:51:21.820 says,

00:51:22.240 if the

00:51:23.720 Roman

00:51:23.940 pontiff

00:51:24.520 renounces

00:51:25.860 his

00:51:26.240 munis,

00:51:27.620 it has

00:51:28.300 to be

00:51:28.540 free,

00:51:29.120 and it

00:51:29.360 has to

00:51:29.600 be

00:51:29.720 properly

00:51:30.040 manifested.

00:51:31.340 And if

00:51:31.540 he had

00:51:31.780 done that

00:51:32.660 in word

00:51:33.600 and in

00:51:34.080 deed,

00:51:34.700 we wouldn't

00:51:35.180 be having

00:51:35.540 this discussion

00:51:36.840 right now.

00:51:39.080 Amazing

00:51:39.640 stuff,

00:51:40.220 very confusing,

00:51:41.620 but boy,

00:51:43.140 what a

00:51:43.360 change this

00:51:44.360 would bring.

00:51:45.640 I mean,

00:51:46.120 would it

00:51:47.380 if,

00:51:48.200 in fact,

00:51:49.280 his resignation

00:51:50.380 was deemed

00:51:51.580 invalid by

00:51:53.220 an investigation

00:51:53.760 in the

00:51:54.040 church as

00:51:54.680 Archbishop

00:51:55.620 Figueroa has

00:51:56.120 called for,

00:51:57.020 and I

00:51:57.260 think other

00:51:57.660 bishops would

00:51:58.640 support,

00:51:59.920 some other

00:52:00.340 bishops,

00:52:00.660 of course,

00:52:00.980 by no means

00:52:02.140 am I saying

00:52:02.700 the majority

00:52:03.120 of so,

00:52:03.560 but what

00:52:05.860 would that

00:52:06.300 then mean

00:52:06.960 for the

00:52:08.080 church today?

00:52:08.680 Would it

00:52:09.000 basically

00:52:09.420 invalidate all

00:52:10.820 of Pope

00:52:11.140 Francis' 0.87

00:52:11.700 actions as

00:52:12.500 pope?

00:52:14.140 Well,

00:52:14.760 people are

00:52:15.200 divided on

00:52:15.860 that.

00:52:16.760 You know,

00:52:17.000 my take

00:52:17.720 is that

00:52:18.440 certainly

00:52:20.180 all these

00:52:21.160 heretical 0.55

00:52:21.540 documents,

00:52:22.460 at least

00:52:22.820 materially

00:52:23.540 heretical,

00:52:24.920 like Abu 0.95

00:52:25.900 Dhabi,

00:52:27.060 that God

00:52:27.720 wills the

00:52:29.160 plurality of

00:52:29.980 religions,

00:52:31.220 all these

00:52:32.020 terrible

00:52:32.880 encyclicals

00:52:34.000 and post-apostolic

00:52:35.600 exhortations

00:52:36.380 like Amoris

00:52:37.480 Laetitia,

00:52:38.700 which seems

00:52:39.620 to say that

00:52:40.340 people that

00:52:41.700 are divorced

00:52:42.180 and remarried

00:52:42.880 can receive

00:52:43.960 Holy Communion,

00:52:44.900 even though

00:52:45.240 they're in an

00:52:45.580 objective state

00:52:46.740 of grave sin,

00:52:47.980 or even,

00:52:48.720 it says worse

00:52:49.720 than that,

00:52:50.100 it says there

00:52:50.500 are times

00:52:51.020 when people

00:52:51.800 have to

00:52:52.260 sin,

00:52:52.760 so to

00:52:53.020 speak,

00:52:53.540 but anyway,

00:52:54.660 I think

00:52:55.780 those would

00:52:56.440 automatically be

00:52:57.200 wiped away,

00:52:58.040 but in terms

00:52:58.640 of church

00:52:59.040 appointments,

00:53:00.840 there is

00:53:01.500 something called

00:53:02.400 ecclesias

00:53:03.040 supplet,

00:53:04.360 or a

00:53:06.040 jurisdiction

00:53:06.600 that the

00:53:07.400 heaven supplies,

00:53:08.700 supplied

00:53:09.200 jurisdiction,

00:53:10.820 for when,

00:53:12.600 for a

00:53:12.880 situation like

00:53:13.740 this,

00:53:14.800 and another

00:53:16.620 thing I wanted

00:53:17.060 to add to

00:53:18.020 that,

00:53:18.500 to your

00:53:18.700 question there

00:53:19.300 about

00:53:19.700 what if

00:53:23.040 Bergoglio

00:53:23.620 is an

00:53:24.080 anti-pope,

00:53:25.240 people often

00:53:26.600 accuse me

00:53:27.340 of,

00:53:27.940 and others,

00:53:28.680 of trying to

00:53:29.540 provoke schism,

00:53:30.400 and obviously

00:53:30.860 that's the last

00:53:31.440 thing I want to

00:53:32.080 do,

00:53:32.740 and I'm only

00:53:33.400 following what

00:53:34.060 Father Gruner

00:53:34.660 basically told me

00:53:36.020 to do,

00:53:36.600 and Monsignor

00:53:37.440 Bux,

00:53:37.920 and now

00:53:38.600 Archbishop

00:53:39.080 Vigano,

00:53:39.900 but St.

00:53:41.580 Cajetan,

00:53:42.740 in his commentary

00:53:43.560 on the

00:53:44.060 Summa,

00:53:45.400 he says

00:53:45.820 the following,

00:53:46.540 if someone,

00:53:47.580 for a

00:53:47.940 reasonable

00:53:48.420 motive,

00:53:50.160 holds the

00:53:50.780 person of

00:53:51.360 the Pope

00:53:51.800 in suspicion,

00:53:53.640 and refuses

00:53:54.320 his presence,

00:53:55.180 and even

00:53:55.620 his jurisdiction,

00:53:57.280 he does

00:53:57.620 not commit

00:53:58.860 the delict

00:53:59.660 of schism,

00:54:00.940 nor any

00:54:01.800 other

00:54:02.080 whatsoever,

00:54:03.060 provided that

00:54:03.700 he be ready

00:54:04.140 to accept

00:54:04.620 the Pope

00:54:05.100 were he not

00:54:05.820 held in

00:54:06.340 suspicion.

00:54:08.160 And then,

00:54:09.140 another quote

00:54:09.940 I could share

00:54:10.760 with you is

00:54:11.400 from,

00:54:11.880 you know,

00:54:12.220 before Vatican

00:54:12.840 II,

00:54:13.700 the most

00:54:14.360 respected

00:54:14.820 commentary

00:54:15.400 on canon

00:54:16.160 law was

00:54:17.280 the eight

00:54:17.720 volume set

00:54:18.640 by Francis

00:54:19.360 Xavier

00:54:19.800 Werner

00:54:20.300 and Peter

00:54:21.400 Vidal,

00:54:22.380 and they

00:54:23.000 wrote,

00:54:24.340 they cannot

00:54:24.960 be numbered

00:54:26.020 among the

00:54:26.680 schismatics 0.61

00:54:27.520 who refuse

00:54:28.600 to obey

00:54:29.300 the Roman

00:54:29.760 pontiff

00:54:30.500 because they

00:54:31.380 consider his

00:54:31.980 person to

00:54:32.580 be suspect

00:54:33.140 or doubtfully

00:54:34.680 elected on

00:54:35.900 account of

00:54:36.600 rumors in

00:54:37.680 circulation,

00:54:38.560 just rumors

00:54:39.200 in circulation.

00:54:40.920 So I

00:54:41.660 want to make

00:54:42.160 that clear.

00:54:42.660 I don't

00:54:43.440 endorse

00:54:43.760 schism,

00:54:44.500 nor do I

00:54:45.000 want to

00:54:45.240 promote

00:54:45.520 that.

00:54:46.180 And from

00:54:46.820 what I

00:54:47.080 can read,

00:54:47.880 it seems

00:54:48.340 that I'm

00:54:48.640 not doing

00:54:49.060 that.

00:54:50.000 And I

00:54:50.900 don't think

00:54:51.320 that Archbishop

00:54:52.020 Vigano would

00:54:52.680 be encouraging

00:54:53.240 that,

00:54:53.600 or Father

00:54:53.980 Gruner.

00:54:54.800 Or,

00:54:55.240 you know,

00:54:55.840 I want to

00:54:56.180 add,

00:54:56.580 Father Paul

00:54:57.080 Kramer

00:54:57.500 recently came

00:54:58.760 out with a

00:54:59.240 book about

00:55:00.700 Pope Benedict's

00:55:02.700 resignation and

00:55:03.960 about Jorge

00:55:04.480 Bergoglio.

00:55:05.660 I believe it's

00:55:06.500 called On the

00:55:07.280 True and False

00:55:08.160 Pope that just

00:55:09.320 came out in

00:55:10.080 November of last

00:55:11.060 year.

00:55:12.160 And also,

00:55:12.720 I don't know

00:55:13.020 if you're

00:55:13.240 familiar with

00:55:14.000 Dr.

00:55:15.560 Rydali,

00:55:16.740 who was a

00:55:17.440 student of

00:55:18.080 Romano

00:55:18.580 Emerio from

00:55:20.220 the book

00:55:21.180 Iota Unum.

00:55:22.920 He just came

00:55:23.460 out with a

00:55:23.840 book.

00:55:24.400 It's in

00:55:24.780 English and

00:55:25.360 in Italian.

00:55:26.840 At the heart

00:55:27.440 of Ratzinger,

00:55:28.440 he is the

00:55:29.040 Pope, not

00:55:29.720 the other.

00:55:31.060 So very,

00:55:32.020 very bright

00:55:32.600 people are

00:55:34.140 looking into

00:55:35.440 this for the

00:55:36.260 good of the

00:55:36.640 church.

00:55:38.040 Absolutely.

00:55:38.920 And I know

00:55:39.300 Professor

00:55:39.740 Rydali.

00:55:40.960 And, you

00:55:41.680 know, not

00:55:43.060 only very

00:55:43.480 bright people,

00:55:45.380 people have to

00:55:45.900 understand these

00:55:46.420 are very, very

00:55:47.400 faithful Catholics.

00:55:48.820 The kind of

00:55:49.700 Catholic who

00:55:50.740 would want to

00:55:51.340 give his life

00:55:51.920 for the faith,

00:55:53.520 ready to,

00:55:54.440 you know,

00:55:55.800 offer up

00:55:56.160 everything,

00:55:56.500 and they are

00:55:57.040 offering up

00:55:57.480 already, as

00:55:58.780 are you,

00:55:59.320 very much of

00:56:00.140 your reputation,

00:56:01.380 putting yourself

00:56:01.840 in the line of

00:56:02.340 fire, by

00:56:04.660 high-ranking

00:56:06.520 churchmen, by

00:56:07.400 those you

00:56:08.120 might love and

00:56:08.640 respect in the

00:56:09.200 faith as well.

00:56:10.420 So very

00:56:11.920 challenging things

00:56:12.660 to do.

00:56:13.500 Well, I

00:56:14.160 couldn't suffer

00:56:14.760 worse than,

00:56:15.760 if you don't

00:56:16.140 mean, I'm

00:56:16.900 sorry to

00:56:17.220 interrupt you

00:56:17.620 there, John

00:56:17.960 Henry.

00:56:18.420 I couldn't

00:56:18.880 suffer worse

00:56:19.520 than Ed

00:56:19.940 Penton.

00:56:20.920 You remember

00:56:21.220 a few years

00:56:21.660 back, Cardinal

00:56:22.800 Maradiaga called

00:56:23.860 him a mafioso?

00:56:28.840 Unbelievable

00:56:29.320 stuff.

00:56:29.920 But before we

00:56:30.460 close, I

00:56:30.760 wanted to get

00:56:31.260 to your

00:56:31.740 why.

00:56:33.600 What do

00:56:34.320 you think?

00:56:35.080 Why do you

00:56:35.700 think Ratzinger

00:56:37.880 Pope Benedict

00:56:38.660 did what he

00:56:39.540 did?

00:56:40.780 Well, again,

00:56:41.740 there are

00:56:42.080 different takes

00:56:42.800 on this.

00:56:43.580 Some people

00:56:43.980 think that

00:56:45.120 he did it

00:56:48.060 deliberately

00:56:48.500 because he

00:56:50.020 foresaw what

00:56:51.040 was coming

00:56:51.640 and wanted

00:56:54.340 to make

00:56:55.620 sure that

00:56:56.160 whoever succeeded

00:56:57.000 him, if he

00:56:57.680 was going to

00:56:57.980 be a modernist,

00:56:59.260 all his work

00:57:00.540 would amount

00:57:01.300 to nothing,

00:57:02.100 you know,

00:57:02.340 legitimately.

00:57:02.800 other people

00:57:05.060 like myself

00:57:05.780 think that

00:57:06.880 he committed

00:57:07.960 some kind

00:57:08.360 of substantial

00:57:08.880 error or

00:57:09.620 had some

00:57:10.040 erroneous

00:57:10.620 theology that

00:57:12.500 in a sense

00:57:13.480 fortuitously

00:57:14.660 saved us

00:57:16.520 from Bergoglio

00:57:17.380 being a

00:57:17.840 legitimate

00:57:18.180 pope and

00:57:19.500 by Ratzinger

00:57:20.260 still being

00:57:20.820 the pope.

00:57:22.640 So there

00:57:23.180 are various

00:57:23.600 theories about

00:57:24.360 this, but

00:57:25.320 I think

00:57:25.880 my bet

00:57:28.180 is, and

00:57:28.680 my research

00:57:29.380 is, is

00:57:30.400 that it

00:57:30.820 was more

00:57:31.380 his post-conciliar

00:57:34.320 ideas, his

00:57:35.160 nouvelle

00:57:35.460 theologie

00:57:36.020 that gave

00:57:37.020 him this

00:57:37.320 idea that

00:57:38.340 you could

00:57:38.640 still be

00:57:39.340 papal without

00:57:40.860 actually

00:57:41.400 administering and

00:57:42.600 governing the

00:57:43.280 church.

00:57:43.740 and if I

00:57:45.720 could throw

00:57:46.040 in here

00:57:46.480 the testimony

00:57:47.360 of, I

00:57:48.600 know you're

00:57:48.900 familiar with

00:57:49.400 the work

00:57:49.800 of Malachi

00:57:51.620 Martin in

00:57:53.240 his book that

00:57:54.440 he wrote 30

00:57:55.000 years ago,

00:57:55.580 The Keys of

00:57:56.120 This Blood,

00:57:57.520 he said

00:57:58.300 something

00:57:59.080 interesting.

00:58:00.320 And of

00:58:00.900 course, whenever

00:58:01.220 we hear

00:58:01.500 Father Malachi

00:58:02.020 Martin's

00:58:02.440 name, our

00:58:02.800 ears have

00:58:03.180 to perk

00:58:03.520 up because

00:58:04.000 he claimed

00:58:04.940 to have

00:58:05.260 read The

00:58:05.580 Third

00:58:05.760 Secret.

00:58:07.360 And in

00:58:08.200 his books,

00:58:09.420 although he

00:58:09.860 could not

00:58:10.260 actually come

00:58:10.980 out and

00:58:11.400 state The

00:58:12.100 Third

00:58:12.300 Secret, he

00:58:13.840 often mixed

00:58:14.760 in parts of

00:58:15.640 the secret

00:58:16.140 between fact

00:58:17.560 and fiction,

00:58:18.540 especially in

00:58:19.180 his fiction

00:58:19.560 works.

00:58:20.360 But what I'm

00:58:21.000 getting at is

00:58:21.620 from one of

00:58:22.300 the last

00:58:22.740 chapters of

00:58:23.880 The Keys of

00:58:24.540 This Blood,

00:58:25.640 Father Malachi

00:58:26.040 Martin says the

00:58:26.920 following, he

00:58:27.500 says, there

00:58:28.380 are three

00:58:28.800 dreadful outcomes

00:58:30.220 that are

00:58:30.800 possible after

00:58:32.720 John Paul

00:58:33.220 the Great

00:58:33.640 leaves the

00:58:34.600 scene in

00:58:35.600 the future.

00:58:36.520 And he

00:58:36.920 says, the

00:58:37.200 first possible

00:58:37.980 outcome is

00:58:39.340 the day when

00:58:40.240 a sizable

00:58:41.800 body of

00:58:42.520 clergy and

00:58:43.280 laity become

00:58:44.780 convinced,

00:58:45.700 rightly or

00:58:46.280 wrongly, that

00:58:47.820 the then

00:58:48.500 occupant of

00:58:49.460 the apostolic

00:58:50.180 throne of

00:58:50.640 Peter is

00:58:51.780 not, perhaps

00:58:53.140 never was,

00:58:54.500 a validly

00:58:55.280 elected Pope.

00:58:57.120 And that

00:58:57.840 kind of scares

00:58:58.360 me because

00:58:58.800 maybe that's

00:58:59.580 in the third

00:58:59.980 secret.

00:59:00.680 In fact,

00:59:01.360 Father Malachi

00:59:01.760 Martin, when

00:59:02.360 he addressed

00:59:02.780 an audience

00:59:03.380 in Detroit,

00:59:04.080 Michigan in

00:59:04.780 1989, he

00:59:06.420 said, quote,

00:59:07.600 we're facing

00:59:08.420 what we may

00:59:09.120 have to face,

00:59:10.460 finally, the

00:59:11.540 false Pope.

00:59:13.820 And of

00:59:14.060 course, there's

00:59:14.540 the, Peter

00:59:16.140 Seewald in one

00:59:17.240 of his

00:59:17.480 interviews with

00:59:18.280 Pope Benedict

00:59:18.840 talks to him

00:59:20.100 about the

00:59:20.420 prophecy of

00:59:20.980 Malachi, because 1.00

00:59:22.200 according to

00:59:22.600 the prophecy of

00:59:23.240 Malachi, the

00:59:24.960 glory of the

00:59:25.820 olive is the

00:59:27.280 Pope that

00:59:27.880 Pope Ratzinger

00:59:28.960 would represent.

00:59:29.960 And then

00:59:30.960 after him is

00:59:31.820 supposed to be a

00:59:32.400 terrible time of

00:59:33.120 tribulation and

00:59:34.000 perhaps even an

00:59:34.820 antipope until

00:59:36.080 Peter the Roman 0.78

00:59:36.920 comes and

00:59:38.560 sets things

00:59:39.340 straight.

00:59:40.560 And so

00:59:41.120 Peter Seewald

00:59:41.960 says to

00:59:42.640 Papa Benedetto,

00:59:44.480 is it possible

00:59:45.420 that you are the

00:59:46.300 last Pope or

00:59:47.460 at least the

00:59:48.040 last Pope of

00:59:48.820 a certain era?

00:59:50.680 And Benedict

00:59:51.820 says, yes,

00:59:53.220 anything could

00:59:53.900 happen.

00:59:54.740 It could be

00:59:55.340 true.

00:59:56.540 So there's a

00:59:58.500 lot of things

00:59:59.020 that need to

00:59:59.420 be investigated

01:00:00.120 is the way I

01:00:00.740 would put it.

01:00:02.260 Yeah, that

01:00:03.340 prophecy of

01:00:05.200 St. Malachi is

01:00:06.820 very fascinating.

01:00:08.040 In fact, I

01:00:09.280 remember way

01:00:10.760 back in the

01:00:11.560 90s still being

01:00:13.000 in the church

01:00:14.120 of St. Paul

01:00:14.720 outside the

01:00:15.140 walls in Rome.

01:00:16.680 And at the

01:00:17.240 time, they

01:00:18.060 had the images

01:00:19.200 of the Popes

01:00:20.140 all along the

01:00:21.380 ceiling, just

01:00:22.620 below the

01:00:23.540 ceiling, actually.

01:00:24.120 And it sort

01:00:25.240 of lined the

01:00:25.880 whole church

01:00:26.480 all the way

01:00:27.100 around.

01:00:27.440 You could

01:00:27.720 watch it.

01:00:28.860 And after

01:00:29.820 JP II's

01:00:30.680 image, there

01:00:31.780 was only

01:00:32.140 space for

01:00:33.060 two more.

01:00:34.280 And it was

01:00:34.980 based on the

01:00:36.020 prophecies of

01:00:37.800 St. Malachi.

01:00:39.300 And when I

01:00:41.040 went back

01:00:41.360 later, after

01:00:43.120 the election

01:00:43.580 of Benedict,

01:00:44.740 and actually

01:00:45.620 it was right

01:00:46.360 after Francis'

01:00:47.020 election, I

01:00:47.640 noticed that

01:00:48.040 they had made

01:00:48.360 a second row

01:00:48.960 and moved

01:00:49.300 them all

01:00:49.500 around, so

01:00:49.860 that was

01:00:50.120 room for

01:00:50.920 lots and

01:00:51.220 lots more.

01:00:52.060 But it was

01:00:52.560 still fascinating.

01:00:54.120 That after

01:00:54.740 JP II, there

01:00:55.620 was only two

01:00:56.040 spots left, one

01:00:56.780 of course taken

01:00:57.240 by Ratzinger, and

01:00:58.560 then after that

01:00:59.040 just one more.

01:01:00.160 And it's Peter

01:01:00.640 the Roman, of

01:01:01.540 course, in

01:01:02.460 terms of

01:01:02.880 Catholic

01:01:03.100 prophecy.

01:01:04.220 But I always

01:01:05.100 found that

01:01:05.520 stunning and

01:01:06.380 wondered what

01:01:07.720 it meant.

01:01:08.620 But this is

01:01:10.320 truly a

01:01:10.640 fascinating time

01:01:11.200 in the

01:01:11.380 church.

01:01:12.260 You've been

01:01:12.960 selected in a

01:01:15.120 way, or called

01:01:15.640 to do something

01:01:17.040 really unique

01:01:17.620 here in

01:01:18.200 bringing out

01:01:18.800 this thesis,

01:01:19.420 even though

01:01:21.060 it, I

01:01:21.800 know, has

01:01:22.320 cost you

01:01:23.200 a lot.

01:01:24.700 God bless

01:01:25.240 you for what

01:01:25.540 you're doing.

01:01:26.540 And let's

01:01:27.280 see how

01:01:27.760 God works

01:01:29.160 to bring

01:01:30.800 clarity to

01:01:31.380 our current

01:01:31.840 Mass.

01:01:32.980 God's will, it's

01:01:33.660 in our

01:01:33.900 Lady's hands, 0.88

01:01:34.560 our Lord's

01:01:34.980 hands, and we

01:01:35.720 work and pray

01:01:36.340 for the triumph

01:01:36.940 of the Immaculate

01:01:37.440 Heart of Mary.

01:01:39.080 Amen.

01:01:39.800 Thank you so

01:01:40.360 much, Dr.

01:01:40.800 Mazza, for being 0.98

01:01:41.260 with us.

01:01:42.020 Thank you,

01:01:42.400 John.

01:01:44.040 God bless all

01:01:44.800 of you, and

01:01:45.620 we'll see you

01:01:45.960 next time.

01:01:46.340 God bless all

01:01:50.620 you.

The John-Henry Westen Show - April 22, 2022

Unpacking Benedict's resignation： What if Francis isn't the pope after all？

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