Were The Saints Romantic？ God, Courtship, & Salvation ｜ Patrick O'Hearn
Episode Stats
Words per Minute
187.52873
Summary
In this episode of The John Henry Liston Show, host John Henry Weston sits down with Patrick O'Hearn, author of the new book, "Courtship of the Saints," to discuss the romanticism of the saints.
Transcript
00:00:00.000
You know, for us as parents, it's never too early to pray for our children's vocations,
00:00:06.560
Even like I have a little seven-year-old, it's like I should be praying every day for
00:00:10.200
his future wife, right, if he's called to marriage.
00:00:19.340
Have you ever wondered about the saints, married saints?
00:00:27.220
Can you even think of a saint as being romantic?
00:00:34.780
In fact, there's a book written about how romantic they were, about their courtship.
00:00:45.580
There are stories in there that are going to blow your mind.
00:00:51.740
We're going to find out right now on the John Henry Liston Show with the author of the book,
00:01:02.640
We are just about to have the Synod on Synodality, and everything that you've seen indicates that
00:01:11.980
We have Father James Martin as a personal appointee of the Pope speaking at it.
00:01:20.480
These picks of the Pope to engage in this Synod are indicative of where we're going.
00:01:29.360
And at these times of great crisis, the church, especially those called in the laity to work
00:01:37.220
for the glory of Christ and his church, are called to gather and strategize.
00:01:43.420
Back in 2014, LifeSite launched something called Rome Life Forum.
00:01:47.600
It was a gathering at that point of some 75 life and family leaders from all around the
00:01:56.060
And when we gathered, the majority of people were most concerned about what?
00:01:59.760
about Pope Francis, about what was going on in Rome.
00:02:04.080
But this was 2014, but the life and family leaders saw it first.
00:02:10.680
Now, a decade on, we are confronted with some of the most severe challenges the church has
00:02:18.080
And so our tradition at LifeSite is to continue with Rome Life Forum, which has continued every
00:02:22.640
year until we had to take a break over COVID because we weren't permitted.
00:02:26.940
But we're starting it up again, and this year, Cardinal Muller and Bishop Athanasius Schneider
00:02:35.740
Please come, if you feel so called, to Rome, October 31st and November 1st, the very end
00:02:45.800
And we'll be there to strategize with his eminence, with his excellency, and with many life and
00:02:54.240
For LifeSite News, this is John Henry Weston, and may God bless you.
00:03:04.660
So let's begin, as you always do, with the sign of the cross.
00:03:08.020
In the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost.
00:03:13.780
So Patrick, I guess you got to tell us first, what is courtship?
00:03:18.280
Everybody knows about dating, but I think courtship is sort of a lost, I guess, art, you
00:03:24.240
Courtship, it spans back to biblical times, I mean, before the life of Christ.
00:03:29.220
And then really the term itself took root in the 16th century.
00:03:33.340
It came from the term courtier, which was an advisor to a king and a queen.
00:03:38.360
And then as it progressed through the centuries, it became this notion of pursuing a woman or,
00:03:49.080
And then now we see today in the 21st century, through the writings of Fulton Sheen and Father
00:03:55.400
Rippinger, again, it's, you're trying to find someone that's virtuous.
00:04:08.420
It was a lower class slang term, and it became more associated with popularity.
00:04:12.900
It never really had anything to do with sex at the time.
00:04:15.700
And then as the automobile took off, but really courtship is this, I think it's part of our
00:04:22.900
And just, it's such a beautiful thing to, to always keep the end in mind, which is marriage.
00:04:29.360
This book is fascinating because I think for a lot of people, they, they don't have that
00:04:38.340
But, okay, so tell us one of your favorite stories from there, which will sort of blow
00:04:45.780
My favorite story, then I've spent probably the majority of my, I would say the majority
00:04:49.940
of my writing career on them is, is really St. Therese's mom and dad.
00:04:54.220
And I wrote about them in my first book, Parents of the Saints.
00:04:58.020
And they were, they were, they were both born in separate cities in France.
00:05:02.140
And then eventually they moved to the same town in Alisson and Zellie was 12 years old
00:05:10.840
And so it took them about 14 years before they met each other.
00:05:17.140
So, you know, back in the day, it was a small town.
00:05:19.040
So they would have frequent in the same church, you know, the same marketplace, but God arranged
00:05:24.280
at the perfect moment as they were crossing a bridge, you know, Zellie heard a voice.
00:05:31.820
And leading up to that, she had been praying to our lady.
00:05:34.880
So I speculate that she heard our, you know, a locution from our lady.
00:05:39.500
And both of them had, were so set on becoming religious.
00:05:44.140
Now, Lewis spent time in a monastery and due to health issues, and also he was having trouble
00:05:52.380
And then Zellie went to a convent and she also had, was discerning there, had health issues.
00:05:57.700
And she was told you were going to be, you know, your, your calling is not in religious
00:06:02.580
And then, so when they got married, one of the most fascinating things is like on their
00:06:07.800
wedding night, you know, Zellie was in tears and she went to go visit her sister who was
00:06:13.800
And it was just kind of like, she wanted to be a nun and she just didn't understand why
00:06:19.640
But after she got married and they had kids, she goes, I never regret this vocation.
00:06:23.980
And it's because God was, had foresaw the little flower that would be her daughter, St.
00:06:29.040
Therese, and, you know, all five daughters became nuns and they lost four children.
00:06:33.780
But just the fact that our Lord orchestrates so many things, you know, we look at the vocation
00:06:39.120
of the priesthood and, and what a, you know, we hear these amazing callings that people have,
00:06:43.980
but we never talk about this calling to marriage and how God, again, just, just called these
00:06:50.560
What kind of courtship did they express to one another?
00:07:02.400
They met in April of 1858, which was ironically around the same time Our Lady of Lords appeared.
00:07:08.360
But in going back a little before that, in my research, I found that Louis Martin's mother
00:07:14.400
had met Zellie at a lace making class and she was, and she was so struck by this lady's
00:07:23.960
He was a comfortable bachelor and a very holy man, but just, and so she kind of planted a
00:07:29.780
seed and said, you know, like you should, I hope someday that you meet this girl and
00:07:34.540
kind of had began praying that somehow their path would, you know, intertwine.
00:07:39.200
And so I believe it was the prayers of Louis Martin's mother that eventually facilitated
00:07:47.720
And I think, you know, for us as parents, it's never too early to pray for our children's
00:07:51.420
vocations, especially if they're called to marriage.
00:07:54.860
Even like I have a little seven-year-old, it's like, I'm, I should be praying every day
00:08:00.940
And I didn't really get into how much, you know, in terms of that, there's not a whole
00:08:04.300
lot of information on what happened after that.
00:08:06.700
But I mean, basically three months after they met, they were married on actually July 12th,
00:08:14.560
One of the things that we wonder about the saints and actual romance, if you will, or expressions
00:08:25.420
of love for one another that are in line with God, how does that suss out with the saints?
00:08:34.320
Do they express love in a normal kind of a way?
00:08:41.340
And I say a lost art is writing a letter to someone and a romantic letter.
00:08:49.240
And so she provided with me some, some of the letters that her, you know, her parents
00:08:54.060
And it was said, you know, even before they got married, you know, they wrote letters
00:08:58.680
And then after they got married, you know, Pietro Mola, who St. Gianna's daughter also
00:09:05.640
And he was, he would travel to the United States.
00:09:07.960
And it was basically every single day for a period of, it was like three to five months,
00:09:13.940
And, but leading up to that, I found one of the letters was so beautiful.
00:09:17.440
And they were writing about how they wanted to prepare for their marriage.
00:09:21.580
And they said, will you join me in a, it was almost like a triduum of prayer.
00:09:26.100
So they would go three days before their wedding, they would go to, you know, separately, they
00:09:30.300
would go to mass and receive Holy Communion and offer that as preparation.
00:09:34.500
But based on their love letters, I mean, it just, it just blows you away.
00:09:38.840
I mean, they talk about, you know, even after they're married, like, you know, they were
00:09:42.260
recalling their romantic nights together and their, their passionate kissing.
00:09:45.860
And you think, and this is after they're married and you think about it, like, you know, Hollywood
00:09:49.940
just glamorizes, you know, you know, and it's kind of distorts the whole marital act.
00:09:55.180
And here, these saints are like, they're showing Gianna and Pietro just the beauty of the sacrament
00:10:01.540
of marriage and how it, how it's kind of partaking of Christ's love for his church.
00:10:08.820
You know, that here on LifeSite, we love to tell amazing stories.
00:10:12.880
There are a few so heroic and amazing as the story we're about to tell you that's coming
00:10:23.880
When I was in seminary, I was reading a book by Henry Nowen.
00:10:27.640
He talked about a nuclear man, you know, and people who grew up in the 1980s were kind of
00:10:33.080
formed by that immediate and constant threat of nuclear annihilation.
00:10:38.260
My generation has grown up, you know, under the specter of priestly sexual abuse.
00:10:46.420
What say, Mr. Foreperson, is the defendant guilty or not guilty?
00:10:50.820
I think that for many of us, that has also been all-encompassing.
00:10:55.360
You know, I mean, I entered the seminary in January of 2004, and it's basically been there
00:11:22.700
Because they're the ones looking at this in a kind of a real way in that they've got decisions
00:11:30.620
to make, but they're all about, right now, it's about dating, isn't it?
00:11:34.680
And we're supposed to be like, I don't want to say the hookup culture, because hopefully
00:11:38.780
most of the young people watching this wouldn't be engaged in that, God willing.
00:11:43.640
But what is courtship supposed to be about for them anyway?
00:11:46.900
You know, courtship, you know, for them is, you're choosing your spouse now at every moment.
00:11:54.460
Every temptation you face, it is, you know, whether it's a lustful temptation or anything,
00:12:00.460
you know, whether you're going to even, it's all about that future, that future, like whether
00:12:07.160
So the choices we make, and I think, as I spell on the book, it's a life of prayer that
00:12:13.140
leads us ultimately to God's will and to that, to marrying that spouse that will lead us to
00:12:18.760
You know, in the story, in this book, I have a story of St. Francis Borgia, you know, he
00:12:23.280
was the, probably the, one of the highest Jesuit saints ever, but before he became a
00:12:29.580
He was married and his wife died young, but it said leading up to his marriage, he, I mean,
00:12:35.020
his whole life, he never committed a mortal sin.
00:12:37.180
He was so pure and he, you know, loved praying.
00:12:40.260
It was basically his great devotion to our lady is what kept him pure.
00:12:43.420
He would pray the rosary and he would encourage those around him to pray the rosary.
00:12:47.780
And I think in his wife that he met, she was a, she was a servant of, of, of the queen of
00:12:54.080
Spain and she was from Portugal and she was also very pure.
00:12:57.780
So I think for young people, that's, that's the essential part is that, that life of prayer.
00:13:01.920
But I also think, um, one of the saints mentioned the life of purity and, uh, there's a, um,
00:13:09.700
She's a famous mystic, uh, saint, uh, should be a future saint, but her husband was drawn
00:13:18.400
And I think that that's a way as young people, you know, as you're, as you're trying to find
00:13:22.100
that, that spouse, you know, you're not going to find them wearing yoga pants, you know,
00:13:25.740
you're going to find them wearing, you know, dressing modestly.
00:13:28.520
And these are just some of the lessons that I think the saints, you know, they, they communicate
00:13:34.820
It's funny because you're talking about young people, not, not even having found someone,
00:13:41.420
this is praying for that someone before you found them, uh, which I think is a fascinating
00:13:48.780
practice, but then also what happens when they do find a someone, because that, that enters
00:13:56.200
a whole new area where you have to discern, A, is this the right person?
00:14:07.940
I was able to interview the postulator, the cause for canonization for a gentleman named
00:14:16.240
He actually performed a surgery on one of the visionaries at Medjugorje.
00:14:19.800
And he, um, he had seven children, many of them were adopted with special needs.
00:14:26.500
And before he met his wife, Rosalie, when he met, when he was discerning, you know, meeting
00:14:30.700
his, I'm sorry, when he met his wife, Rosalia, they were in college and, uh, he met Rosalia's
00:14:36.660
And so he befriended Rosalia through her older brother.
00:14:39.420
And he was, he was blown away by her beauty, but Rosalia wasn't like, and, but over time,
00:14:47.660
He had difficulty expressing who he was, you know, his interest in his love for her.
00:14:52.060
But over time, he kind of, they fell in love and it was, he was drawn.
00:14:56.640
He came from a very wealthy upbringing, but he loved her simplicity.
00:15:00.440
And I think that patience in their relationship that, that played out in the end, like he didn't,
00:15:06.220
And, and also for Rosalia, you know, I mean, she was sorry, she, she was more the one that
00:15:11.560
had to be patient because, you know, I think the taro was more, he was like, I want to marry
00:15:18.700
And I think it's a, it's a great lesson for our young people is to, you know, you want
00:15:24.120
Even, you know, John Paul II talks about that attraction that, but it's not the end all,
00:15:28.900
you know, virtue must, must give way, you know, to physical beauty and the virtue of the
00:15:34.880
And so these are just some of the stories in this book that how, you know, that relationship
00:15:42.140
It was love at first sight for one of them, but not for the other one.
00:15:45.160
Let's talk about parents for a second, because this is a big deal.
00:15:51.620
I know as a parent, soon as my kids got to that age and now they're almost all there, not
00:15:57.800
quite, but a lot of them are, our oldest is 26.
00:16:00.960
Our youngest is 11, but, but he's sort of all by himself because we lost three in between
00:16:13.540
So apart from little Zachary, they're all sort of right in the mix of things.
00:16:20.100
And so we've been praying like crazy for a long time now for all the kids, future spouses
00:16:26.720
We don't know, we don't know either way and we haven't got a single one married or in
00:16:36.120
What, what does your book have to offer parents?
00:16:37.640
For parents, I think the most important lesson as, as I, as I alluded to earlier is, you know,
00:16:43.700
in the, in the life of, uh, Lewis Martin's father, just that, that daily prayer offering,
00:16:47.900
you know, like a, a memory every day for your parent, for your children's future spouse.
00:16:52.940
But I think providing that example for them, you know, and, uh, I have a story of St.
00:16:59.900
And when her husband would come home, uh, Lewis, who's a King, she would, um, kiss him with a
00:17:05.580
Now, I don't think as, you know, you don't go make out in front of your children with
00:17:09.900
your spouse, but they need to see that level of affection with your spouse.
00:17:15.280
I say, John Henry, that parents are the first and basically the only vocations director for
00:17:22.000
the sacrament of marriage, you know, for their children, they're going to get that.
00:17:25.120
And the way that they see you, you know, they see us men like courting our spouse, you
00:17:29.500
know, we don't just court them, you know, before marriage, it's our entire life.
00:17:34.020
And like every day we should be loving our spouse even more than the previous day.
00:17:39.220
And there is a couple in here, um, they're up for canonization, um, um, through the opus
00:17:44.680
day, but, um, I can't think of their, there have so many of the saints in there.
00:17:50.160
It's, um, drawn a blank, but the children said like towards the end of their life, like
00:17:55.260
they were just even more in love with each other.
00:17:56.940
So I think that's the greatest example we can do is just continue as men to pursue our
00:18:04.840
And even as a, as your, as your daughter, if you have a teenage daughter, when she gets
00:18:08.280
older, a lot of men are like, they're afraid to give their daughter like a hug or a kiss.
00:18:12.760
Maybe they think it's weird, but they need to see that affection from us because we're
00:18:16.720
setting them up for their, their future vocation.
00:18:19.500
Hello friends to celebrate the momentous overturning of Roe v Wade.
00:18:25.480
We at LifeSite have minted just under 10,000 of these brand new limited edition pro-life
00:18:31.180
Now each round is stamped with the image of the Supreme Court of the United States, featuring
00:18:36.280
the date that the high court delivered this historic victory.
00:18:38.940
And on the front of our pure silver rounds, LifeSite's logo surrounded by a brilliant
00:18:44.820
They of course commemorate our 25 year anniversary of LifeSite news.
00:18:53.700
These one ounce silver rounds are available from our partners at stjosephpartners.com,
00:18:58.920
where you can fulfill all of your silver and gold needs in this perilous time.
00:19:05.360
Any other thoughts for us that you'd like to share?
00:19:07.740
The way that, you know, we prepare for marriage is the way ultimately our marriage will turn out.
00:19:14.740
And I think nowadays it's so many people want to take shortcuts.
00:19:18.640
You know, they want to, you know, whether it's, you know, like cohabitating or even just
00:19:23.780
men just putting off their vocation until they're, you know, their thirties or forties.
00:19:27.940
And I think that God, like he, he has many saints in mind for us, you know, and I, and I'm,
00:19:34.060
I was kind of blown away by the story of Pope Benedict's parents.
00:19:37.360
You know, the father wanted to get married younger.
00:19:39.660
He didn't have the funds, Pope Benedict's mother, Maria, like she was also needed with
00:19:48.420
The mother was like around 36 and he put a newspaper ad and you probably, maybe you guys
00:19:53.500
It was in a Catholic newspaper and he goes looking for a pure woman.
00:20:03.620
And, and, and then when they had, when they got married, you know, Pope Benedict was born,
00:20:09.120
his mother was 43 when she had him and, and Pope Benedict's father was 50.
00:20:13.780
And I think about, you know, people get to their forties, they're done having children.
00:20:17.300
And just, it shows you that God's ways are not our ways, but the fact that we stay faithful
00:20:21.760
to him and we're praying, like he, he wants, he wants saints to be born.
00:20:25.780
And I think as, as, as that's where we have to come with that mindset, like, it's not about
00:20:30.340
Like it really isn't, it's about the future of the church and through these courtships,
00:20:34.760
I have a chapter called courtships that transform the church.
00:20:37.580
You know, you have John Paul II's parents who are now up for canonization.
00:20:42.380
And, and so I think my message, it's, it's all over the place, but I think really just
00:20:47.240
the way you prepare is the way your marriage will end up.
00:20:50.800
And, and then we see the fruit of that in these saints, that these are the greatest legacy
00:20:58.660
The book is available at TAM books and also at Amazon.
00:21:02.840
I would say for your kids, older children, that is, but to get them to know and understand
00:21:08.200
what true courtship is, the courtship of the saints.
00:21:11.160
Patrick O'Hearn, thanks so much for being with us.
00:21:29.800
To see more like it, be sure to hit the subscribe button below to get all the latest content from
00:21:35.340
Check the links in the description to read more and connect with us on social media so that
00:21:39.420
you can stay up to date with all the latest life, family, faith, and freedom news.