The John-Henry Westen Show - Were The Saints Romantic？ God, Courtship, & Salvation ｜ Patrick O'Hearn

00:00:00.000 You know, for us as parents, it's never too early to pray for our children's vocations,

00:00:03.680 especially if they're called to marriage.

00:00:05.040 You know, how many times do we pray?

00:00:06.560 Even like I have a little seven-year-old, it's like I should be praying every day for

00:00:10.200 his future wife, right, if he's called to marriage.

00:00:19.340 Have you ever wondered about the saints, married saints?

00:00:26.360 Are they romantic?

00:00:27.220 Can you even think of a saint as being romantic?

00:00:31.580 Does that sound real?

00:00:32.880 Actually, they were.

00:00:34.780 In fact, there's a book written about how romantic they were, about their courtship.

00:00:40.720 It's called Courtship of the Saints.

00:00:43.800 Talk about fascinating.

00:00:45.580 There are stories in there that are going to blow your mind.

00:00:48.300 You know what?

00:00:48.620 The saints were romantic.

00:00:50.600 Very much so.

00:00:51.740 We're going to find out right now on the John Henry Liston Show with the author of the book,

00:00:56.000 Patrick O'Hearn.

00:00:56.800 Stay tuned.

00:00:59.360 Hey, my friends.

00:01:00.240 Now is the time to stand up and fight.

00:01:02.640 We are just about to have the Synod on Synodality, and everything that you've seen indicates that

00:01:09.520 it's going to be an absolute disaster.

00:01:11.980 We have Father James Martin as a personal appointee of the Pope speaking at it.

00:01:17.360 We've got Cardinal Cupich, Cardinal Tobin.

00:01:20.480 These picks of the Pope to engage in this Synod are indicative of where we're going.

00:01:27.780 We're going into heresy.

00:01:29.360 And at these times of great crisis, the church, especially those called in the laity to work

00:01:37.220 for the glory of Christ and his church, are called to gather and strategize.

00:01:43.420 Back in 2014, LifeSite launched something called Rome Life Forum.

00:01:47.600 It was a gathering at that point of some 75 life and family leaders from all around the

00:01:53.100 world to strategize as to what we could do.

00:01:56.060 And when we gathered, the majority of people were most concerned about what?

00:01:59.760 about Pope Francis, about what was going on in Rome.

00:02:04.080 But this was 2014, but the life and family leaders saw it first.

00:02:10.680 Now, a decade on, we are confronted with some of the most severe challenges the church has

00:02:16.760 ever faced.

00:02:18.080 And so our tradition at LifeSite is to continue with Rome Life Forum, which has continued every

00:02:22.640 year until we had to take a break over COVID because we weren't permitted.

00:02:26.940 But we're starting it up again, and this year, Cardinal Muller and Bishop Athanasius Schneider

00:02:33.860 are going to be joining us.

00:02:35.740 Please come, if you feel so called, to Rome, October 31st and November 1st, the very end

00:02:43.720 of the Synod on Synodality.

00:02:45.800 And we'll be there to strategize with his eminence, with his excellency, and with many life and

00:02:52.820 family leaders from around the world.

00:02:54.240 For LifeSite News, this is John Henry Weston, and may God bless you.

00:03:00.340 Patrick O'Hearn, welcome to the program.

00:03:02.160 It's an honor to be here, John Henry.

00:03:04.660 So let's begin, as you always do, with the sign of the cross.

00:03:08.020 In the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost.

00:03:13.120 Amen.

00:03:13.780 So Patrick, I guess you got to tell us first, what is courtship?

00:03:18.280 Everybody knows about dating, but I think courtship is sort of a lost, I guess, art, you

00:03:22.580 could say, but what is it?

00:03:24.240 Courtship, it spans back to biblical times, I mean, before the life of Christ.

00:03:29.220 And then really the term itself took root in the 16th century.

00:03:33.340 It came from the term courtier, which was an advisor to a king and a queen.

00:03:38.360 And then as it progressed through the centuries, it became this notion of pursuing a woman or,

00:03:43.680 you know, with the idea of marriage.

00:03:45.500 And then, so that was kind of the whole idea.

00:03:49.080 And then now we see today in the 21st century, through the writings of Fulton Sheen and Father

00:03:55.400 Rippinger, again, it's, you're trying to find someone that's virtuous.

00:03:59.160 That's the most important thing.

00:04:00.360 Is this person virtuous?

00:04:02.920 And, you know, dating is more of a recent fad.

00:04:05.700 It came into surface in the 20th century.

00:04:08.420 It was a lower class slang term, and it became more associated with popularity.

00:04:12.900 It never really had anything to do with sex at the time.

00:04:15.700 And then as the automobile took off, but really courtship is this, I think it's part of our

00:04:21.080 heritage, our tradition.

00:04:22.900 And just, it's such a beautiful thing to, to always keep the end in mind, which is marriage.

00:04:29.360 This book is fascinating because I think for a lot of people, they, they don't have that

00:04:33.900 outlook in their minds.

00:04:35.560 What do you mean saints who are courting what?

00:04:38.340 But, okay, so tell us one of your favorite stories from there, which will sort of blow

00:04:44.660 that impression.

00:04:45.780 My favorite story, then I've spent probably the majority of my, I would say the majority

00:04:49.940 of my writing career on them is, is really St. Therese's mom and dad.

00:04:54.220 And I wrote about them in my first book, Parents of the Saints.

00:04:58.020 And they were, they were, they were both born in separate cities in France.

00:05:02.140 And then eventually they moved to the same town in Alisson and Zellie was 12 years old

00:05:07.820 when she moved there.

00:05:08.560 And I think Lewis was seven.

00:05:10.840 And so it took them about 14 years before they met each other.

00:05:14.300 And today that town is about 40,000 people.

00:05:17.140 So, you know, back in the day, it was a small town.

00:05:19.040 So they would have frequent in the same church, you know, the same marketplace, but God arranged

00:05:24.280 at the perfect moment as they were crossing a bridge, you know, Zellie heard a voice.

00:05:28.680 This is the man whom I have chosen for you.

00:05:31.820 And leading up to that, she had been praying to our lady.

00:05:34.880 So I speculate that she heard our, you know, a locution from our lady.

00:05:39.500 And both of them had, were so set on becoming religious.

00:05:44.140 Now, Lewis spent time in a monastery and due to health issues, and also he was having trouble

00:05:48.960 grasping Latin, he was told to return home.

00:05:52.380 And then Zellie went to a convent and she also had, was discerning there, had health issues.

00:05:57.700 And she was told you were going to be, you know, your, your calling is not in religious

00:06:01.920 life.

00:06:02.580 And then, so when they got married, one of the most fascinating things is like on their

00:06:07.800 wedding night, you know, Zellie was in tears and she went to go visit her sister who was

00:06:13.200 a nun.

00:06:13.800 And it was just kind of like, she wanted to be a nun and she just didn't understand why

00:06:17.900 God had led her to marriage.

00:06:19.640 But after she got married and they had kids, she goes, I never regret this vocation.

00:06:23.980 And it's because God was, had foresaw the little flower that would be her daughter, St.

00:06:29.040 Therese, and, you know, all five daughters became nuns and they lost four children.

00:06:33.780 But just the fact that our Lord orchestrates so many things, you know, we look at the vocation

00:06:39.120 of the priesthood and, and what a, you know, we hear these amazing callings that people have,

00:06:43.980 but we never talk about this calling to marriage and how God, again, just, just called these

00:06:49.820 saints together.

00:06:50.560 What kind of courtship did they express to one another?

00:06:54.280 They got a call from our Lord.

00:06:56.440 Sure.

00:06:56.900 Was that it?

00:06:57.600 How did that develop?

00:06:58.760 So then three months after that, okay.

00:07:00.540 So they were basically, they were married.

00:07:02.400 They met in April of 1858, which was ironically around the same time Our Lady of Lords appeared.

00:07:08.360 But in going back a little before that, in my research, I found that Louis Martin's mother

00:07:14.400 had met Zellie at a lace making class and she was, and she was so struck by this lady's

00:07:20.760 virtue.

00:07:21.100 And Louis was in, he was 34 years old.

00:07:23.960 He was a comfortable bachelor and a very holy man, but just, and so she kind of planted a

00:07:29.780 seed and said, you know, like you should, I hope someday that you meet this girl and

00:07:34.540 kind of had began praying that somehow their path would, you know, intertwine.

00:07:39.200 And so I believe it was the prayers of Louis Martin's mother that eventually facilitated

00:07:45.560 the meeting of Louis and Zellie.

00:07:47.720 And I think, you know, for us as parents, it's never too early to pray for our children's

00:07:51.420 vocations, especially if they're called to marriage.

00:07:53.420 You know, how many times do we pray?

00:07:54.860 Even like I have a little seven-year-old, it's like, I'm, I should be praying every day

00:07:58.420 for his future wife, right?

00:07:59.780 If he's called to marriage.

00:08:00.940 And I didn't really get into how much, you know, in terms of that, there's not a whole

00:08:04.300 lot of information on what happened after that.

00:08:06.700 But I mean, basically three months after they met, they were married on actually July 12th,

00:08:12.260 which is, you know, coming up this week.

00:08:14.560 One of the things that we wonder about the saints and actual romance, if you will, or expressions

00:08:25.420 of love for one another that are in line with God, how does that suss out with the saints?

00:08:33.380 Do they write each other?

00:08:34.320 Do they express love in a normal kind of a way?

00:08:39.500 Or what does it seem, what does it look like?

00:08:41.340 And I say a lost art is writing a letter to someone and a romantic letter.

00:08:46.180 And I was able to interview St.

00:08:48.200 Gianna's daughter.

00:08:49.240 And so she provided with me some, some of the letters that her, you know, her parents

00:08:53.040 wrote to each other.

00:08:54.060 And it was said, you know, even before they got married, you know, they wrote letters

00:08:57.960 to each other.

00:08:58.680 And then after they got married, you know, Pietro Mola, who St. Gianna's daughter also

00:09:03.860 believes will become a saint someday.

00:09:05.640 And he was, he would travel to the United States.

00:09:07.960 And it was basically every single day for a period of, it was like three to five months,

00:09:12.020 whatever they would write each other.

00:09:13.940 And, but leading up to that, I found one of the letters was so beautiful.

00:09:17.440 And they were writing about how they wanted to prepare for their marriage.

00:09:21.580 And they said, will you join me in a, it was almost like a triduum of prayer.

00:09:26.100 So they would go three days before their wedding, they would go to, you know, separately, they

00:09:30.300 would go to mass and receive Holy Communion and offer that as preparation.

00:09:34.500 But based on their love letters, I mean, it just, it just blows you away.

00:09:38.840 I mean, they talk about, you know, even after they're married, like, you know, they were

00:09:42.260 recalling their romantic nights together and their, their passionate kissing.

00:09:45.860 And you think, and this is after they're married and you think about it, like, you know, Hollywood

00:09:49.940 just glamorizes, you know, you know, and it's kind of distorts the whole marital act.

00:09:55.180 And here, these saints are like, they're showing Gianna and Pietro just the beauty of the sacrament

00:10:01.540 of marriage and how it, how it's kind of partaking of Christ's love for his church.

00:10:08.820 You know, that here on LifeSite, we love to tell amazing stories.

00:10:12.880 There are a few so heroic and amazing as the story we're about to tell you that's coming

00:10:19.220 soon.

00:10:20.220 You got to watch this.

00:10:23.880 When I was in seminary, I was reading a book by Henry Nowen.

00:10:27.640 He talked about a nuclear man, you know, and people who grew up in the 1980s were kind of

00:10:33.080 formed by that immediate and constant threat of nuclear annihilation.

00:10:38.260 My generation has grown up, you know, under the specter of priestly sexual abuse.

00:10:46.420 What say, Mr. Foreperson, is the defendant guilty or not guilty?

00:10:50.820 I think that for many of us, that has also been all-encompassing.

00:10:55.360 You know, I mean, I entered the seminary in January of 2004, and it's basically been there

00:11:01.280 for me from the beginning.

00:11:02.720 One priest's sacrifice for many priestly sins.

00:11:11.200 The story of Father John Halliwell.

00:11:15.480 Coming soon from LifeSite News.

00:11:17.960 What's your message for young people?

00:11:22.700 Because they're the ones looking at this in a kind of a real way in that they've got decisions

00:11:30.620 to make, but they're all about, right now, it's about dating, isn't it?

00:11:34.680 And we're supposed to be like, I don't want to say the hookup culture, because hopefully

00:11:38.780 most of the young people watching this wouldn't be engaged in that, God willing.

00:11:43.640 But what is courtship supposed to be about for them anyway?

00:11:46.900 You know, courtship, you know, for them is, you're choosing your spouse now at every moment.

00:11:52.560 I mean, even as a teenager, right?

00:11:54.460 Every temptation you face, it is, you know, whether it's a lustful temptation or anything,

00:12:00.460 you know, whether you're going to even, it's all about that future, that future, like whether

00:12:05.580 you're going to marry this person or not.

00:12:07.160 So the choices we make, and I think, as I spell on the book, it's a life of prayer that

00:12:13.140 leads us ultimately to God's will and to that, to marrying that spouse that will lead us to

00:12:18.500 heaven.

00:12:18.760 You know, in the story, in this book, I have a story of St. Francis Borgia, you know, he

00:12:23.280 was the, probably the, one of the highest Jesuit saints ever, but before he became a

00:12:28.200 Jesuit, he was a man in love.

00:12:29.580 He was married and his wife died young, but it said leading up to his marriage, he, I mean,

00:12:35.020 his whole life, he never committed a mortal sin.

00:12:37.180 He was so pure and he, you know, loved praying.

00:12:40.260 It was basically his great devotion to our lady is what kept him pure.

00:12:43.420 He would pray the rosary and he would encourage those around him to pray the rosary.

00:12:47.780 And I think in his wife that he met, she was a, she was a servant of, of, of the queen of

00:12:54.080 Spain and she was from Portugal and she was also very pure. 0.99

00:12:57.780 So I think for young people, that's, that's the essential part is that, that life of prayer.

00:13:01.920 But I also think, um, one of the saints mentioned the life of purity and, uh, there's a, um,

00:13:07.940 blessed Maria Anna Toggy.

00:13:09.700 She's a famous mystic, uh, saint, uh, should be a future saint, but her husband was drawn 1.00

00:13:15.720 to her modesty and, uh, purity.

00:13:18.400 And I think that that's a way as young people, you know, as you're, as you're trying to find

00:13:22.100 that, that spouse, you know, you're not going to find them wearing yoga pants, you know,

00:13:25.740 you're going to find them wearing, you know, dressing modestly.

00:13:28.520 And these are just some of the lessons that I think the saints, you know, they, they communicate

00:13:33.080 to our generation.

00:13:34.780 Yeah.

00:13:34.820 It's funny because you're talking about young people, not, not even having found someone,

00:13:41.420 this is praying for that someone before you found them, uh, which I think is a fascinating

00:13:48.780 practice, but then also what happens when they do find a someone, because that, that enters

00:13:56.200 a whole new area where you have to discern, A, is this the right person?

00:14:02.980 Is this the person God wants for me?

00:14:05.100 What are they supposed to look out for?

00:14:06.760 So I have a great story.

00:14:07.940 I was able to interview the postulator, the cause for canonization for a gentleman named

00:14:12.420 Venerable Vitaro Transinelli.

00:14:14.720 He was a famous medical doctor.

00:14:16.240 He actually performed a surgery on one of the visionaries at Medjugorje.

00:14:19.800 And he, um, he had seven children, many of them were adopted with special needs.

00:14:26.500 And before he met his wife, Rosalie, when he met, when he was discerning, you know, meeting

00:14:30.700 his, I'm sorry, when he met his wife, Rosalia, they were in college and, uh, he met Rosalia's

00:14:36.080 older brother.

00:14:36.660 And so he befriended Rosalia through her older brother.

00:14:39.420 And he was, he was blown away by her beauty, but Rosalia wasn't like, and, but over time,

00:14:46.060 cause he was a very reticent individual.

00:14:47.660 He had difficulty expressing who he was, you know, his interest in his love for her.

00:14:52.060 But over time, he kind of, they fell in love and it was, he was drawn.

00:14:56.640 He came from a very wealthy upbringing, but he loved her simplicity.

00:15:00.440 And I think that patience in their relationship that, that played out in the end, like he didn't,

00:15:05.280 you know, it took him time.

00:15:06.220 And, and also for Rosalia, you know, I mean, she was sorry, she, she was more the one that

00:15:11.560 had to be patient because, you know, I think the taro was more, he was like, I want to marry

00:15:16.080 her, but Rosalia, it took time.

00:15:18.700 And I think it's a, it's a great lesson for our young people is to, you know, you want

00:15:22.820 to be attracted to your spouse.

00:15:24.120 Even, you know, John Paul II talks about that attraction that, but it's not the end all,

00:15:28.900 you know, virtue must, must give way, you know, to physical beauty and the virtue of the

00:15:34.460 soul.

00:15:34.880 And so these are just some of the stories in this book that how, you know, that relationship

00:15:39.240 started off, but it wasn't, wasn't love it.

00:15:42.140 It was love at first sight for one of them, but not for the other one.

00:15:45.160 Let's talk about parents for a second, because this is a big deal.

00:15:51.620 I know as a parent, soon as my kids got to that age and now they're almost all there, not

00:15:57.800 quite, but a lot of them are, our oldest is 26.

00:16:00.960 Our youngest is 11, but, but he's sort of all by himself because we lost three in between

00:16:06.500 our now 17 year old and our 11 year old.

00:16:10.840 We had suffered three miscarriages.

00:16:13.540 So apart from little Zachary, they're all sort of right in the mix of things.

00:16:20.100 And so we've been praying like crazy for a long time now for all the kids, future spouses

00:16:25.460 or vocations.

00:16:26.720 We don't know, we don't know either way and we haven't got a single one married or in

00:16:31.940 vocation yet.

00:16:32.560 So we're sort of still waiting.

00:16:34.260 So tell us about parents.

00:16:36.120 What, what does your book have to offer parents?

00:16:37.640 For parents, I think the most important lesson as, as I, as I alluded to earlier is, you know,

00:16:43.700 in the, in the life of, uh, Lewis Martin's father, just that, that daily prayer offering,

00:16:47.900 you know, like a, a memory every day for your parent, for your children's future spouse.

00:16:52.940 But I think providing that example for them, you know, and, uh, I have a story of St.

00:16:58.420 Uh, Elizabeth of the Hungary.

00:16:59.900 And when her husband would come home, uh, Lewis, who's a King, she would, um, kiss him with a

00:17:04.840 thousand kisses.

00:17:05.580 Now, I don't think as, you know, you don't go make out in front of your children with

00:17:09.900 your spouse, but they need to see that level of affection with your spouse.

00:17:13.800 You know, that, that sets them up.

00:17:15.280 I say, John Henry, that parents are the first and basically the only vocations director for

00:17:22.000 the sacrament of marriage, you know, for their children, they're going to get that.

00:17:25.120 And the way that they see you, you know, they see us men like courting our spouse, you

00:17:29.500 know, we don't just court them, you know, before marriage, it's our entire life.

00:17:34.020 And like every day we should be loving our spouse even more than the previous day.

00:17:39.220 And there is a couple in here, um, they're up for canonization, um, um, through the opus

00:17:44.680 day, but, um, I can't think of their, there have so many of the saints in there.

00:17:48.960 There's 25 of them.

00:17:50.160 It's, um, drawn a blank, but the children said like towards the end of their life, like

00:17:55.260 they were just even more in love with each other.

00:17:56.940 So I think that's the greatest example we can do is just continue as men to pursue our

00:18:01.780 spouses and, and to show affection to them.

00:18:04.840 And even as a, as your, as your daughter, if you have a teenage daughter, when she gets

00:18:08.280 older, a lot of men are like, they're afraid to give their daughter like a hug or a kiss.

00:18:12.400 I don't know.

00:18:12.760 Maybe they think it's weird, but they need to see that affection from us because we're

00:18:16.720 setting them up for their, their future vocation.

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00:19:03.100 May God bless you.

00:19:05.360 Any other thoughts for us that you'd like to share?

00:19:07.740 The way that, you know, we prepare for marriage is the way ultimately our marriage will turn out.

00:19:14.740 And I think nowadays it's so many people want to take shortcuts.

00:19:18.640 You know, they want to, you know, whether it's, you know, like cohabitating or even just

00:19:23.780 men just putting off their vocation until they're, you know, their thirties or forties.

00:19:27.940 And I think that God, like he, he has many saints in mind for us, you know, and I, and I'm,

00:19:34.060 I was kind of blown away by the story of Pope Benedict's parents.

00:19:37.360 You know, the father wanted to get married younger.

00:19:39.660 He didn't have the funds, Pope Benedict's mother, Maria, like she was also needed with

00:19:44.080 the family and they eventually got married.

00:19:46.260 I think he was, the father was in his forties.

00:19:48.420 The mother was like around 36 and he put a newspaper ad and you probably, maybe you guys

00:19:52.500 covered that story.

00:19:53.500 It was in a Catholic newspaper and he goes looking for a pure woman. 0.52

00:19:58.500 And he goes, must know how to cook.

00:20:00.120 That was one of his criteria in here.

00:20:02.240 Pope Benedict's mother was a baker.

00:20:03.620 And, and, and then when they had, when they got married, you know, Pope Benedict was born,

00:20:09.120 his mother was 43 when she had him and, and Pope Benedict's father was 50.

00:20:13.780 And I think about, you know, people get to their forties, they're done having children.

00:20:17.300 And just, it shows you that God's ways are not our ways, but the fact that we stay faithful

00:20:21.760 to him and we're praying, like he, he wants, he wants saints to be born.

00:20:25.780 And I think as, as, as that's where we have to come with that mindset, like, it's not about

00:20:29.980 us.

00:20:30.340 Like it really isn't, it's about the future of the church and through these courtships,

00:20:34.760 I have a chapter called courtships that transform the church.

00:20:37.580 You know, you have John Paul II's parents who are now up for canonization.

00:20:42.380 And, and so I think my message, it's, it's all over the place, but I think really just

00:20:47.240 the way you prepare is the way your marriage will end up.

00:20:50.800 And, and then we see the fruit of that in these saints, that these are the greatest legacy

00:20:55.580 of these parents.

00:20:57.660 Patrick, where can we get your book?

00:20:58.660 The book is available at TAM books and also at Amazon.

00:21:02.080 Great book.

00:21:02.840 I would say for your kids, older children, that is, but to get them to know and understand

00:21:08.200 what true courtship is, the courtship of the saints.

00:21:11.160 Patrick O'Hearn, thanks so much for being with us.

00:21:13.240 Thanks for having me.

00:21:15.180 God bless you and God bless all of you.

00:21:17.760 And we'll see you next time.

00:21:18.540 Hi, everyone.

00:21:27.040 This is John Henry Weston.

00:21:28.160 We hope you enjoyed this program.

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00:21:43.400 Thanks for watching and may God bless you.

The John-Henry Westen Show - August 15, 2023

Were The Saints Romantic？ God, Courtship, & Salvation ｜ Patrick O'Hearn

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