The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast - 12 Rules Sacramento： The Sovereignty of the Individual

00:00:00.940 Hey everyone, real quick before you skip, I want to talk to you about something serious and important.

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00:00:12.740 We know how isolating and overwhelming these conditions can be, and we wanted to take a moment to reach out to those listening who may be struggling.

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00:00:57.420 Welcome to Season 2, Episode 5 of the Jordan B. Peterson Podcast.

00:01:03.100 My name is Michaela Peterson, and I'm Dr. Peterson's daughter and collaborator.

00:01:07.220 Today, we're presenting Dad's lecture at the Community Theatre in Sacramento, California, recorded on June 27th, 2018.

00:01:14.560 Dad tries to make each of his lectures different, so we hope there will be something truly new here for old fans, as well as something generally useful for newer listeners.

00:01:22.480 He talked about the increasing politicization of the public dialogue, the insistence that every topic, whether theological, philosophical, or personal,

00:01:32.500 has to be analyzed first and foremost as a political statement, or worse, as an expression of power or privilege.

00:01:39.520 He also talked about the consequences of the rapid transformation of the media landscape,

00:01:43.660 and the fact that the new, long-form online videos and podcasts increase our attention spans,

00:01:49.320 and the sophistication of the information that we can be presented with and handle.

00:01:53.480 Modern audiences are far smarter than the denizens of the old media presume,

00:01:58.160 partly because their bandwidth limitations made everyone they were talking to look and appear less intelligent than they actually were.

00:02:04.880 The so-called intellectual dark web members have figured out that the people they're talking to can actually handle far more than anyone had suspected.

00:02:12.040 This accounts in part for their popularity.

00:02:14.640 He closes with a discussion of the profound Western idea of the sovereignty and responsibility of the individual,

00:02:20.200 and the need to act that out in life, so that each person is pursuing something profound enough to give their life meaning.

00:02:27.100 Dad, was there anything particularly compelling about this lecture?

00:02:30.840 Well, I think that one of the most important things I discussed was the danger of setting yourself in order.

00:02:39.720 I mean, part of the reason that people, let's say, could be enlightened but aren't,

00:02:45.980 is because if you want to learn things, you have to look where you don't want to look.

00:02:51.340 You've already looked where you want to look.

00:02:53.100 You've already looked where it's easy.

00:02:55.140 And to improve your lot in life, you have to concentrate on what you don't yet know,

00:03:01.340 and perhaps also on the mistakes that you've made in the past,

00:03:05.500 which are actually variants of things that you don't know.

00:03:08.180 And so one of the things I figured out, I discussed that a little bit in this lecture and more in other lectures,

00:03:14.100 is that the idea of recovering your father from the belly of the whale or from the depths or from the underground

00:03:21.440 is actually a consequence of, like it's a symbolic representation of the idea of developing your ancestral self,

00:03:29.320 like the person you could be,

00:03:30.960 by constantly confronting yourself with new challenges and things that you don't know,

00:03:36.880 so that you force yourself to learn and to grow.

00:03:40.320 And so I think that's a particularly compelling part of this lecture.

00:03:44.140 What happened in your life this week?

00:03:45.720 Anything you want to update people about?

00:03:48.300 Well, it's near the end of March.

00:03:50.760 I think it's March 27th today.

00:03:54.560 Yeah, well, this week was quite another set of scandals.

00:04:01.520 I had arranged for a fellowship at Cambridge University,

00:04:05.840 which was partly invited and partly requested.

00:04:09.080 I wanted to work on my Exodus lectures,

00:04:12.020 which I plan to do in the fall as an extension of my biblical lectures,

00:04:15.280 with some of the experts at the Cambridge Divinity School.

00:04:18.240 And that had all been arranged, even with a signed contract.

00:04:21.280 I was going to spend October and November there.

00:04:23.860 And because of a, at least in part, because of a photograph that was taken in New Zealand,

00:04:29.040 one of, I might point out, 30,000 photographs that I've taken in the last year,

00:04:34.720 Cambridge decided, and under political pressure,

00:04:38.440 I have no doubt from the various social justice warrior types at the university,

00:04:43.140 to revoke and rescind my fellowship,

00:04:48.160 and also to publicize it quite broadly,

00:04:51.260 which I felt was very unprofessional behavior on their part.

00:04:56.300 They didn't publicize the fact that I was invited to begin with.

00:04:59.740 And it seemed that tweeting out the fact that my invitation was rescinded was a bit on the...

00:05:04.900 Weasel side of things?

00:05:06.700 Well, yeah, let's say that, on the inappropriate virtue signaling side of things.

00:05:11.280 So that was a big scandal.

00:05:12.960 It was covered in newspapers all over, well, all over, all over England,

00:05:17.320 all over Australia and Canada.

00:05:20.340 I wrote a blog post about it and had it published as well in a variety of papers in North America.

00:05:27.240 A New Zealand bookseller banned my book, although they did reconsider,

00:05:33.800 and so it's for sale again.

00:05:35.500 So I guess that ended up on a good note.

00:05:38.080 And maybe even all this bad publicity overall serves a positive function

00:05:44.640 by drawing attention to all these crazy things that are going on in universities

00:05:49.360 and corporations all over the world.

00:05:51.600 So anyways, that was part of my week.

00:05:53.800 That and launching this podcast with you.

00:05:56.380 Good.

00:05:57.240 Sounds exciting.

00:05:59.600 When we return, Dad's 12 Rules for Life lecture in Sacramento.

00:06:10.640 Please welcome my father, Dr. Jordan B. Peterson.

00:06:13.200 Man, you people in Sacramento, Steve, starved for attention.

00:06:36.480 Oh, thank you.

00:06:37.700 That was really something.

00:06:40.560 Hey, it was just Dave's birthday the other day, eh?

00:06:42.940 42.

00:06:43.800 So, yeah.

00:06:47.480 He's not looking too beat up for someone who's already burned up his best years.

00:06:53.160 So, you know, Dave mentioned winning, you know, and that's an interesting concept.

00:07:04.520 Yesterday, I was at the Aspen Ideas Festival.

00:07:07.640 There's a video, I was interviewed by this journalist, Barry Weiss, and Barry was the New York Times journalist

00:07:14.580 who penned the piece on the intellectual dark web.

00:07:17.800 And she's, I suppose, somewhat maybe a moderate center right in her political philosophy,

00:07:25.720 which makes her quite the pariah among the pseudo-intellectual types, let's say, at the New York Times.

00:07:34.240 And anyway, she interviewed me, and the Aspen Ideas Festival is a pretty liberal festival,

00:07:40.920 so it was kind of a strange place to be.

00:07:45.080 And after I was interviewed, I talked about, in front of about 300 people,

00:07:51.620 talked about things like the actuality of gender differences, you know,

00:07:55.480 which is something that you wouldn't really think you'd have to talk about, you know.

00:08:00.880 But we're in this strange situation where the obvious has become radical.

00:08:06.420 And so, I don't know what to make of it.

00:08:09.020 But anyways, on to winning.

00:08:12.720 Some, somebody, there was a crowd of people that I sat down with afterwards at a bar

00:08:19.680 to have a little chat about what was happening at the Ideas Festival.

00:08:24.280 And there was a political scientist there who was pushing me, and I don't know exactly why,

00:08:29.340 but he wanted to push me into declaring my political position, you know.

00:08:34.280 And I said that I wasn't really that interested in declaring my political position

00:08:38.480 because I wasn't really thinking politically, I was thinking psychologically.

00:08:42.660 And he didn't, that didn't seem to register that idea exactly, that that was possible.

00:08:48.520 Because one of the things that seems to have happened, and I think it's a very dangerous thing,

00:08:53.780 and I'm not sure why it's happening, is that while the personal has become political,

00:08:58.900 which was sort of a rallying cry for the activist types for about three generations,

00:09:05.740 that the personal should be political.

00:09:08.200 It's like, well, no, actually not.

00:09:11.120 Some things should be political, and some things should be philosophical,

00:09:14.640 and some things should be theological, and some things should be economic.

00:09:18.260 Like, there should be some distinction between those things.

00:09:20.320 Everything shouldn't collapse into the political.

00:09:22.300 But he was quite taken with the idea that everything had to collapse into the political.

00:09:28.940 So he was trying to push me to clarify my stance on school policy, and policy in general.

00:09:35.040 And I kept telling him that my stance on policy was,

00:09:40.060 things are very, very complicated.

00:09:42.700 It's very difficult to formulate the problem properly.

00:09:46.260 It's very difficult to come up with the proper interventions,

00:09:50.060 the proper set of interventions.

00:09:51.860 Then it's very difficult to test them.

00:09:54.200 Then it's very difficult to assess the results of the tests.

00:09:57.920 And so my stance, in some sense, is,

00:10:02.200 you find what the problem is, maybe do that by consensus.

00:10:05.700 You generate some problem statements to see if you can clarify and articulate what the problem is.

00:10:12.060 You generate a variety of hypothetical solutions.

00:10:15.060 You don't assume they're going to work, because they probably won't,

00:10:18.060 because you thought them up, and you're not very smart, and the world's really complicated.

00:10:21.800 Well, this is the case, man.

00:10:23.200 If you're a social scientist, an actual scientist, I don't mean an ideologue,

00:10:28.580 one of the first things that you learn is that your stupid intervention is wrong.

00:10:33.340 So, and the reason that that's the case is because,

00:10:36.400 well, partly because you don't have the problem conceptualized properly to begin with,

00:10:40.080 or maybe your measurements are out of whack,

00:10:41.840 or you've got some axiomatic presupposition that isn't correct,

00:10:45.980 that's blinding you to the reality of the situation,

00:10:48.620 or your intervention kicks back in some way you didn't expect,

00:10:52.440 or, like, there's just endless reasons why well-meaning interventions will inevitably fail.

00:10:58.800 And so my attitude is basically to approach that from a scientific perspective,

00:11:02.480 and generate a diverse range of possible solutions.

00:11:05.880 Don't assume that they're going to work.

00:11:07.400 Test them, and if they work, well, then you can implement them more broadly.

00:11:10.700 But you should be very cautious about that.

00:11:12.640 So, which I think is a scientific take on political problems.

00:11:16.800 But anyways, he didn't like any of that.

00:11:19.500 And it's because he was trying to corner me into some proposition

00:11:22.920 that would exist in accordance with his a priori opinion of me.

00:11:27.460 And I didn't really want to play that game.

00:11:29.740 But the reason I'm telling you this story is because

00:11:32.360 I kept telling him that what I was trying to do,

00:11:35.620 or what we're trying to do,

00:11:37.920 because you're all here and doing whatever it is that we're doing.

00:11:41.200 We're all doing it together here, you know.

00:11:45.800 That as far as I'm concerned, this isn't primarily political,

00:11:49.360 and it hasn't been from the beginning.

00:11:51.180 It's primarily psychological.

00:11:52.920 I said, well, look, as far as I can tell,

00:11:55.000 here's the situation that we're in,

00:11:56.540 is that a lot of complicated things are coming down the pike for us.

00:12:00.760 And this is going to happen more and more rapidly over the next, who knows.

00:12:07.100 As long as all of us are alive,

00:12:09.480 things are going to be changing faster and faster.

00:12:12.000 You can be absolutely sure about that, you know.

00:12:14.620 There are theorists of artificial intelligence

00:12:17.500 and computer transformation who have written about this.

00:12:23.800 You know, you guys know about Moore's Law,

00:12:25.400 saw the fact that processor power doubles on about an 18-month basis,

00:12:29.280 and that that's been happening,

00:12:30.820 God only knows,

00:12:32.280 at least since the invention of the transistor,

00:12:34.340 but you can actually track it way farther back in time than that, by the way.

00:12:38.360 And hard drive capacity doubles every year.

00:12:41.400 Like, there's doublings going on everywhere.

00:12:44.080 Radical doublings in computational power going on everywhere.

00:12:47.700 And the rate of change is speeding up and speeding up and speeding up.

00:12:52.220 And so, the question is,

00:12:55.100 well, what do we do to move forward?

00:12:57.240 And the answer is,

00:12:58.200 well, how in the world are we supposed to figure that out?

00:13:00.000 Because everything's changing so fast

00:13:01.720 that you can't even tell what forward is going to be.

00:13:04.300 Like, let me give you a specific example,

00:13:05.960 and then I'll return to this.

00:13:07.180 So, I've been trying to figure out

00:13:09.200 what's going on with this polarization process.

00:13:13.100 You know, we seem to be locked into this process of political polarization.

00:13:16.140 And I can't figure it out exactly,

00:13:19.620 because part of me thinks,

00:13:21.060 and I'm kind of watching you Americans

00:13:22.720 from the outside perspective a little bit,

00:13:25.140 because I'm a Canadian.

00:13:26.000 I lived here for six years,

00:13:27.160 and I know your country reasonably well.

00:13:29.980 But, you know, I still have a bit of detachment from it.

00:13:32.340 And half of me thinks nothing's going on at all.

00:13:35.580 You guys voted 50% Republican and 50% Democrat

00:13:39.980 for the last four elections.

00:13:41.780 It's like, you're not any more polarized than you were.

00:13:43.980 It's exactly the same thing.

00:13:45.240 You had two insane candidates to vote for.

00:13:50.200 And, well, you did.

00:13:51.320 You know, you did.

00:13:52.400 And that happens sometimes.

00:13:54.100 Like, the same thing happens in Canada.

00:13:57.120 Now and then we get a, you know,

00:13:58.720 just an array of poor choices,

00:14:02.220 and we have to muddle through with them, you know.

00:14:05.760 It probably serves us right,

00:14:06.860 because, you know, in a democracy,

00:14:08.060 you get the candidates that you deserve,

00:14:10.040 just like in a marriage, usually.

00:14:11.500 So, yeah, yeah.

00:14:14.360 So, if you have an unhappy marriage,

00:14:16.100 that's worth thinking about.

00:14:17.120 So, oh, this is what I deserve.

00:14:18.920 Isn't that interesting?

00:14:20.540 Yeah.

00:14:21.520 Yeah.

00:14:22.260 Yeah.

00:14:22.720 Gloomy thought.

00:14:23.840 So, so, so, so it isn't clear

00:14:28.800 that the polarization is real.

00:14:31.820 But then another part of me thinks,

00:14:34.000 no, it's, or I also think,

00:14:37.480 another part of me thinks that it is also not real,

00:14:39.880 but in a different way.

00:14:41.500 And I think, okay, what's really going on here?

00:14:45.280 Why is there this terrible political agitation

00:14:49.200 going on at the moment?

00:14:50.660 And I think some of it can be laid

00:14:52.040 at the feet of the idiot universities,

00:14:53.940 and a substantial amount of it.

00:14:55.660 And I'm really appalled by that.

00:14:59.660 Like, I really do believe,

00:15:01.360 I really do believe that the universities,

00:15:05.340 perhaps not the STEM fields still,

00:15:07.920 but other than that,

00:15:08.680 I think the universities do more harm than good.

00:15:11.060 And that's really an appalling thing.

00:15:13.120 So that might be a real phenomenon.

00:15:14.680 But there's something else going on, too.

00:15:16.620 And I think what's going on is that

00:15:18.220 the communication technology

00:15:22.320 is changing so rapidly right now

00:15:23.800 that it's flipping our society around.

00:15:25.780 And I think you're seeing this,

00:15:27.140 you're seeing this manifest itself

00:15:28.940 in the rise of YouTube and podcasts,

00:15:31.340 most primarily.

00:15:32.420 Because YouTube is basically television, right?

00:15:34.820 For all intents and purposes.

00:15:36.240 But it's television 2.0.

00:15:38.620 And the reason it's television 2.0

00:15:41.060 is because YouTube can do everything television can,

00:15:44.760 but television can't do everything that YouTube can.

00:15:47.600 And one of the things that YouTube can do

00:15:49.960 that television can't

00:15:51.300 is make you way smarter than you are.

00:15:54.100 So I've been thinking that

00:15:55.660 television might have made us look stupider

00:15:58.400 than we actually are.

00:16:00.020 And the reason that it did that

00:16:02.300 was because it has a very narrow bandwidth.

00:16:04.520 And I really started thinking about this

00:16:06.060 because of something Sam Harris said

00:16:07.660 when Dave Rubin was interviewing him.

00:16:09.320 And Harris said,

00:16:10.380 he laid out some statistics.

00:16:11.680 He said, look,

00:16:12.920 if you go on John Anderson on CNN,

00:16:15.560 if you're a guest,

00:16:16.660 you get to talk for seven minutes,

00:16:19.340 okay,

00:16:19.660 and a million people will watch.

00:16:21.560 It's like,

00:16:22.100 that's a pretty decent audience.

00:16:23.720 But seven minutes,

00:16:24.880 it's like,

00:16:26.000 you're going to take something complex

00:16:27.140 and you're going to distill it down to seven minutes.

00:16:29.100 You're going to get the stupid version of it

00:16:30.800 because some things just can't be distilled down to seven minutes.

00:16:34.020 And seven minutes is actually a long time on television, right?

00:16:37.380 Often what happens is that

00:16:38.800 like a political speech

00:16:40.060 will be distilled down to a 30-second soundbite.

00:16:42.940 And so it's sort of like

00:16:43.760 TV treats you like you have advanced Alzheimer's, right?

00:16:47.360 You can't remember anything

00:16:48.900 that's longer than seven minutes,

00:16:50.380 even on a good day.

00:16:51.380 And most of the time,

00:16:52.140 you're limited to 30 seconds.

00:16:53.480 And I think one of the things that does,

00:16:56.520 has done,

00:16:57.560 because I've noticed that

00:16:58.500 I've been trying to figure out

00:17:00.640 what distinguishes

00:17:01.540 the intellectual dark web types

00:17:03.960 because they're quite diverse in their opinions,

00:17:06.140 as Dave pointed out,

00:17:09.080 from the mainstream media.

00:17:10.680 And one of the things that distinguishes them

00:17:12.720 is that the intellectual dark web folks

00:17:15.760 don't think their audience is stupid, right?

00:17:19.800 Everybody in that group,

00:17:21.220 and I think this is what unites them,

00:17:23.480 everybody in that group

00:17:25.300 treats their audience

00:17:26.220 as if they're,

00:17:28.200 well, as intelligent as they are,

00:17:29.680 fundamentally,

00:17:30.360 because no one's pulling any punches, right?

00:17:32.660 It's long-form dialogue.

00:17:34.680 It's high-level dialogue.

00:17:36.440 And it's not edited very much.

00:17:38.780 And so the assumption is

00:17:39.960 you're going to understand

00:17:41.400 whatever it is that we're talking about.

00:17:43.040 But maybe we shouldn't get all moral about that

00:17:45.600 and think, well, we're better people

00:17:46.740 because we don't think our audience is stupid.

00:17:48.540 But maybe the reason is

00:17:50.680 is that the long form

00:17:52.960 that is enabled by the technology

00:17:55.420 automatically allows that to happen.

00:17:58.100 And it's very different than TV.

00:18:01.480 And so I think that's a real possibility.

00:18:04.080 And so, anyways,

00:18:04.960 that's one of the radical changes

00:18:06.840 that's occurring.

00:18:08.740 And that's allied also

00:18:11.280 with the emergence of podcasts,

00:18:12.920 which is also a remarkable thing.

00:18:14.860 A real technological revolution

00:18:16.300 because podcasts, again,

00:18:18.480 give you that long format,

00:18:19.980 multiple hours.

00:18:21.200 Rogan is a really good example of that, right?

00:18:23.100 Three-hour podcasts,

00:18:24.660 like, what the hell's up with that?

00:18:26.580 Turns out you guys have an attention span.

00:18:29.160 Who would have guessed it?

00:18:32.240 You know,

00:18:32.460 when I talked to the Audible people

00:18:33.860 the other day,

00:18:34.400 because audiobooks are exploding like mad,

00:18:36.220 and they're starting to experiment

00:18:38.100 with other forms of content delivery

00:18:41.560 that aren't specifically book-related

00:18:43.260 but are analogous to that.

00:18:44.620 So an author might deliver

00:18:46.400 some additional Audible content

00:18:47.840 that isn't published.

00:18:50.320 So, because you can divorce

00:18:51.680 the audio content from the publication,

00:18:53.760 they want minimum of nine-hour content chunks.

00:18:57.800 So that's interesting.

00:18:58.800 It's like, oh, look,

00:18:59.560 nine hours is the proper length.

00:19:02.480 And then look what's happening

00:19:03.580 with all you guys with Netflix.

00:19:05.040 And it turns out

00:19:07.520 you don't want a half-an-hour sitcom.

00:19:09.740 You want a 24-hour drama

00:19:12.200 with 50 characters, right?

00:19:14.380 Really, really,

00:19:15.200 with a complexity level

00:19:16.460 that starts to approach

00:19:17.420 that of great literature.

00:19:19.100 And you didn't know you wanted that

00:19:20.600 because there was no way

00:19:21.380 you were going to get it

00:19:22.020 because the bandwidth

00:19:22.780 of your communication technology

00:19:24.620 was too narrow to allow it.

00:19:26.300 But as soon as that bandwidth

00:19:27.320 limitation disappeared,

00:19:29.720 it was like, oh, look,

00:19:30.540 you can devour content

00:19:32.940 that's way more complex

00:19:34.420 than anybody would have possibly imagined.

00:19:36.740 And then there's something else

00:19:37.860 going on, too,

00:19:38.560 which is maybe you can listen

00:19:40.820 better than you can read.

00:19:43.020 So that's possible

00:19:43.980 because, you know,

00:19:44.580 most people don't read

00:19:45.640 or they don't read very much.

00:19:47.020 And of the people who read,

00:19:48.420 hardly any people buy books.

00:19:50.700 But a lot of people

00:19:51.560 are buying audiobooks.

00:19:52.820 Think, well, why is that?

00:19:54.180 Well, maybe it's actually

00:19:57.560 somewhat easier to listen

00:19:59.440 than to read.

00:20:00.740 You know, maybe it slightly decreases

00:20:03.240 the cognitive complexity,

00:20:04.860 something like that.

00:20:05.480 It wouldn't surprise me

00:20:06.380 because, like, I noticed

00:20:07.980 when I was reading my books,

00:20:09.240 I read 12 Rules for Life

00:20:10.440 and I read Maps of Meaning.

00:20:11.960 I found that because I had

00:20:14.300 to do the intonation

00:20:15.380 and I had to build the melody

00:20:17.180 into the speech,

00:20:19.060 which is what you do

00:20:20.000 if you're a good speaker,

00:20:21.320 then that would simplify the book.

00:20:23.320 And that was especially true

00:20:24.360 with Maps of Meaning,

00:20:25.240 which is a very complex book.

00:20:26.640 It was released in audio form,

00:20:28.120 by the way, on June 12th.

00:20:29.360 So if you like 12 Rules for Life,

00:20:31.360 if you found it useful,

00:20:32.800 liked is such a stupid word.

00:20:34.820 If you found it useful,

00:20:36.920 you know, and engaging with it

00:20:39.600 was productive,

00:20:40.380 then you could consider

00:20:41.300 listening to Maps of Meaning

00:20:42.820 because it's a much deeper dive

00:20:44.980 into the same sort of content,

00:20:46.500 but it's a very difficult book.

00:20:47.860 But I think the audio version

00:20:49.060 makes it a lot more accessible.

00:20:50.700 So anyways, we might have,

00:20:52.080 I have this suspicion

00:20:53.840 that we might have multiplied

00:20:55.460 the number of people

00:20:56.780 who can engage

00:20:58.200 in high-level intellectual material

00:20:59.840 by a factor of 10

00:21:01.220 by shifting to the audio format.

00:21:03.960 So that's,

00:21:04.640 maybe it's not 10,

00:21:05.560 maybe it's 2,

00:21:06.340 or maybe it's 4,

00:21:07.260 whatever.

00:21:07.660 But even if it's 2,

00:21:08.800 even if it's a factor of 2,

00:21:10.200 man, that's a major

00:21:11.100 technological transformation.

00:21:12.940 Then you add to that

00:21:14.020 the fact that

00:21:15.180 audio books give you,

00:21:18.180 and podcasts,

00:21:18.720 give you found time.

00:21:21.300 That's something.

00:21:22.520 It's like,

00:21:23.480 you know,

00:21:24.200 lots of people

00:21:25.440 come to me

00:21:26.600 after these talks

00:21:27.360 and they tell me

00:21:28.040 when they're listening to,

00:21:30.060 you know,

00:21:30.340 what they're engaged in,

00:21:31.340 when they're listening

00:21:31.900 to my lectures, say.

00:21:33.480 Listening particularly,

00:21:34.580 not watching them,

00:21:35.400 but listening to them.

00:21:36.480 You know,

00:21:36.920 sometimes they're

00:21:37.840 working class guys

00:21:39.140 who are long-haul truckers,

00:21:40.880 or they're driving a forklift,

00:21:42.280 or something like that,

00:21:43.000 or maybe they're housewives

00:21:45.140 who are doing the dishes,

00:21:46.360 or people who are exercising,

00:21:48.800 or whatever.

00:21:49.480 The point is,

00:21:50.140 is that they're doing

00:21:51.020 something else

00:21:52.160 that they have to do anyways,

00:21:54.320 and they're listening.

00:21:56.260 And so there's lots of things

00:21:57.380 that you do during your day,

00:21:58.640 two hours a day,

00:22:00.020 where you're not fully occupied,

00:22:02.420 but you couldn't read,

00:22:04.040 and you couldn't watch a video,

00:22:05.300 because, well,

00:22:05.920 maybe you're driving,

00:22:06.780 for example,

00:22:07.520 but you could listen.

00:22:09.440 And so then,

00:22:10.040 all of a sudden,

00:22:10.520 you have two hours a day

00:22:11.420 freed up to get smarter.

00:22:13.520 And that's a lot,

00:22:14.240 because that's one-eighth

00:22:15.220 of your life, right?

00:22:16.160 Two hours a day

00:22:16.880 is basically one-eighth

00:22:17.940 of your waking life.

00:22:19.140 So that's a massive,

00:22:20.840 massive transformation.

00:22:22.940 And, well,

00:22:23.600 part of the reason

00:22:24.120 that I'm telling you all this,

00:22:25.320 so there's a couple of reasons.

00:22:26.240 One is,

00:22:27.180 what the hell

00:22:27.680 are you all doing here?

00:22:28.580 This is what I'm trying

00:22:29.440 to figure out, right?

00:22:30.820 It's like,

00:22:31.160 and the same thing,

00:22:32.580 when I was in Vancouver

00:22:33.860 with Sam Harris recently,

00:22:35.320 so Sam and I did

00:22:36.440 two back-to-back events.

00:22:37.680 We've got two more coming,

00:22:38.780 one in Dublin,

00:22:39.840 and one in London.

00:22:40.740 And I think the one in Dublin

00:22:41.980 and the one in London

00:22:42.720 have already sold

00:22:43.480 more than 5,000 tickets each.

00:22:45.140 It's like,

00:22:46.020 what, yeah, well,

00:22:47.380 what, right?

00:22:48.360 It's so strange.

00:22:49.900 And so I was sitting there

00:22:51.320 on stage with Sam,

00:22:52.500 and we were both nervous

00:22:53.340 about that,

00:22:53.960 because we hadn't met before.

00:22:55.240 Like, we'd talked

00:22:56.520 and done two podcasts,

00:22:57.800 but we'd never actually met,

00:22:59.780 and we didn't know

00:23:00.380 if we would actually be able

00:23:01.260 to have a productive discussion,

00:23:02.700 you know,

00:23:02.880 or if it would just auger in

00:23:03.940 and be a catastrophe.

00:23:05.180 And so we were kind of

00:23:06.260 nervous about that,

00:23:07.000 but it was so interesting

00:23:08.580 to watch what happened,

00:23:09.760 because Sam was defending

00:23:12.140 his book,

00:23:13.640 and I was in his position,

00:23:15.340 and I was defending mine,

00:23:17.220 and there was a certain amount

00:23:19.940 of combativeness about it,

00:23:22.140 but what it really reminded me of,

00:23:24.480 I was trying to figure out

00:23:25.260 what I could compare it to,

00:23:26.200 what it really reminded me of

00:23:27.460 was a PhD defense.

00:23:29.400 So in a PhD defense,

00:23:31.620 the student has worked

00:23:33.360 for four or five years

00:23:34.460 on their multiple

00:23:35.680 research projects,

00:23:36.760 and in principle,

00:23:37.900 they've mastered

00:23:38.600 the relevant literature,

00:23:40.520 and so they come up

00:23:41.420 and they tell you

00:23:42.040 what they think.

00:23:43.580 And if they're really

00:23:44.380 good students,

00:23:45.200 then you just try

00:23:45.900 to shred them.

00:23:47.440 And the reason you do that,

00:23:48.960 and it's a friendly thing,

00:23:50.360 because the reason you do that

00:23:51.640 is if they've really mastered

00:23:53.120 their domain,

00:23:54.880 you can throw

00:23:55.360 the hardest questions at them,

00:23:57.560 and they can answer them,

00:23:58.540 so it gives them

00:23:59.080 an opportunity

00:23:59.620 to really shine,

00:24:00.780 you know.

00:24:01.140 It's a bad PhD defense

00:24:02.640 if you go easy

00:24:03.380 on the person.

00:24:04.100 It's like,

00:24:04.460 oh God,

00:24:05.020 I have to go easy on you.

00:24:06.080 How appalling.

00:24:07.020 You shouldn't get

00:24:07.600 your PhD at all,

00:24:08.720 because I should be able

00:24:09.780 to just hammer you

00:24:11.400 about this topic,

00:24:12.660 which you have spent

00:24:14.020 five years developing

00:24:15.260 expertise about,

00:24:16.220 and you should know

00:24:16.940 more about it than me.

00:24:18.600 And so I should be able

00:24:19.320 to go at you

00:24:19.900 as hard as possible,

00:24:20.780 and you should be able

00:24:21.380 to fend off all comers.

00:24:23.100 And that's really

00:24:23.880 what was happening.

00:24:24.580 It was like a dual

00:24:25.740 D-U-A-L

00:24:27.800 and D-U-E-L

00:24:29.040 both at the same time.

00:24:30.620 PhD defense.

00:24:31.580 And then I thought,

00:24:33.680 yeah,

00:24:33.920 except that there are

00:24:34.620 2,500 people watching it.

00:24:36.640 That's a whole different thing.

00:24:38.640 But what was interesting

00:24:39.860 was that the level

00:24:40.900 of intellectual discourse

00:24:42.320 essentially matched

00:24:43.360 what I would have seen

00:24:44.200 in the decent PhD defense.

00:24:46.180 Then I thought,

00:24:46.840 well,

00:24:47.100 isn't it so interesting

00:24:48.100 that there's actually

00:24:48.880 the whole audience

00:24:50.140 is in on that,

00:24:51.660 the engaged

00:24:52.800 intellectual discourse.

00:24:53.960 Because Sam and I weren't,

00:24:55.080 I wasn't trying to win,

00:24:56.240 and neither was he.

00:24:57.740 What we were actually

00:24:58.640 trying to do

00:24:59.240 was to see

00:24:59.840 if we could get smarter

00:25:00.940 as a consequence

00:25:01.740 of the conversation.

00:25:03.380 And it wasn't,

00:25:03.860 I mean,

00:25:04.120 you know,

00:25:04.340 we'd take pot shots

00:25:05.240 at each other

00:25:05.740 now and then.

00:25:06.580 Partly that's wit,

00:25:07.740 and some of that's

00:25:08.640 a little bit of fun.

00:25:09.800 Sometimes you do that

00:25:10.600 when you're tired

00:25:11.280 and maybe you get

00:25:12.220 a bit peevish

00:25:12.880 because you're getting

00:25:13.660 cornered in an argument.

00:25:14.760 But none of that's,

00:25:16.080 the wit part's fine,

00:25:17.340 but the dialogue

00:25:18.360 should always be,

00:25:19.740 well,

00:25:19.880 here's my ideas

00:25:20.640 and here's why

00:25:21.220 I think they're worthwhile.

00:25:22.640 And I've tried

00:25:23.240 to already

00:25:23.900 knock them to pieces

00:25:25.700 myself.

00:25:26.980 And I can't,

00:25:27.800 so I think

00:25:28.280 they're correct.

00:25:29.520 They're as correct

00:25:30.040 as I can make them.

00:25:31.060 And then what you do

00:25:31.680 is you open up

00:25:32.400 the opportunity

00:25:33.060 for your opponent

00:25:34.360 to say,

00:25:34.860 no,

00:25:35.040 here's a bunch of ways

00:25:35.920 you're still stupid.

00:25:37.540 And what you're,

00:25:38.800 and what you want,

00:25:39.700 what the right attitude

00:25:40.620 towards that is,

00:25:41.900 well,

00:25:42.040 thank you very much

00:25:42.780 for pointing out

00:25:43.500 where I'm stupid

00:25:44.140 because I'd rather

00:25:45.220 not continue

00:25:46.100 to be stupid.

00:25:47.580 Thank you very much.

00:25:49.300 You know,

00:25:49.520 and,

00:25:50.020 right,

00:25:50.760 that's the thing,

00:25:52.740 right?

00:25:53.560 I'd rather not,

00:25:54.740 I'd rather not

00:25:55.740 continue to be stupid.

00:25:57.680 And you might say,

00:25:58.360 well,

00:25:58.580 who cares if you

00:25:59.340 continue to be stupid?

00:26:00.460 And actually,

00:26:01.140 there's a real answer

00:26:01.900 to that.

00:26:02.240 It's like,

00:26:03.040 if you're stupid,

00:26:04.120 you will get hurt.

00:26:05.680 And so will the people

00:26:06.580 around you.

00:26:07.480 And so if you're

00:26:08.000 a little less stupid,

00:26:09.060 then you get to have

00:26:09.920 a little less pain.

00:26:11.380 And so maybe

00:26:11.960 the price you pay

00:26:12.880 for that is,

00:26:13.860 you know,

00:26:14.180 your stupidity

00:26:15.040 is revealed right here

00:26:16.020 and now

00:26:16.320 and you have to rectify it.

00:26:17.560 And of course,

00:26:18.020 that's annoying,

00:26:18.540 but it's not as bad

00:26:20.240 as walking blindly

00:26:21.740 into a pit,

00:26:22.860 which is the alternative.

00:26:24.700 And so,

00:26:25.100 so anyway,

00:26:25.860 so Sam and I

00:26:26.440 were going back and forth

00:26:27.320 and I really think

00:26:27.980 we actually moved

00:26:28.900 quite a long ways

00:26:29.960 in the discussion.

00:26:30.820 Like,

00:26:30.960 I think that

00:26:31.520 my thinking about

00:26:33.180 the problem

00:26:33.880 is clearer than it was

00:26:35.240 and I think

00:26:36.280 he would agree

00:26:36.980 that his thinking

00:26:37.780 about the problem

00:26:38.500 is clearer than it was too.

00:26:39.680 And it's,

00:26:39.940 it's a really important problem

00:26:41.300 because,

00:26:42.040 you know,

00:26:42.240 we were talking about

00:26:43.160 the relationship

00:26:43.920 between facts and values,

00:26:45.800 which is,

00:26:46.380 which is a broader

00:26:47.560 subset of the,

00:26:48.920 of the relationship

00:26:50.520 between science

00:26:51.360 and religion,

00:26:52.120 right?

00:26:52.360 And it's also

00:26:53.080 the relationship

00:26:53.740 between facts

00:26:54.720 and stories

00:26:55.620 and it's the relationship

00:26:56.660 between,

00:26:57.160 between material reality

00:26:59.700 and ethical conduct.

00:27:01.480 Like,

00:27:01.620 these are hard things

00:27:02.820 to figure out

00:27:03.560 and it's really necessary

00:27:04.860 to figure them out

00:27:05.760 and both of us

00:27:06.880 recognize that it's necessary

00:27:08.160 to figure them out.

00:27:08.980 So,

00:27:09.420 moving a little ahead

00:27:10.580 on that is like,

00:27:11.780 that's,

00:27:12.280 that's really a,

00:27:13.500 it's an unbelievably

00:27:14.540 positive thing

00:27:15.500 because it's crucially

00:27:16.480 important to get this right.

00:27:18.320 And what was so interesting

00:27:19.320 was that

00:27:19.880 everybody in the audience

00:27:21.360 was along for the ride

00:27:22.880 and like a hundred percent,

00:27:24.800 you know,

00:27:25.020 I think some people

00:27:25.900 had come,

00:27:27.180 perhaps,

00:27:28.140 and this was perhaps

00:27:29.140 a consequence

00:27:29.640 of the marketing,

00:27:30.580 to see one of us

00:27:31.980 defeat the other,

00:27:33.240 you know,

00:27:33.460 because maybe

00:27:34.040 there were people

00:27:34.760 in the audience

00:27:35.280 who tilted more

00:27:36.360 in my direction

00:27:37.040 or tilted more in his,

00:27:38.540 although I think

00:27:39.060 most of the people

00:27:39.860 there were mutual fans.

00:27:41.720 But we didn't conduct

00:27:43.640 the discussion

00:27:44.780 in that manner.

00:27:46.060 We were actually

00:27:47.080 trying to have

00:27:47.640 an actual discussion

00:27:49.180 and the audience

00:27:51.360 was participating

00:27:52.680 in the discussion fully

00:27:54.080 to the point where

00:27:55.380 our plan was to talk

00:27:57.180 for about an hour

00:27:57.800 and 15 minutes,

00:27:59.020 something like that,

00:27:59.600 which is actually

00:28:00.020 quite a long time

00:28:00.880 for an intense

00:28:01.920 intellectual discussion.

00:28:02.960 and then to open

00:28:04.680 it up to Q&A.

00:28:06.440 But when we got

00:28:07.360 to an hour

00:28:08.320 and 15 minutes

00:28:09.200 into it,

00:28:09.660 something like that,

00:28:10.520 we asked the audience,

00:28:11.920 do you want to go

00:28:12.540 to Q&A

00:28:13.020 or do you want

00:28:13.440 the discussion

00:28:13.920 to continue?

00:28:14.880 And the overwhelming

00:28:16.140 response from the audience

00:28:17.500 was continue the discussion.

00:28:19.320 And so the first night

00:28:20.180 we talked for

00:28:20.680 two and a half hours

00:28:21.580 and then we talked

00:28:22.780 for two and a half hours

00:28:23.540 the next night

00:28:24.320 and the audience

00:28:26.500 was completely

00:28:27.600 on board

00:28:28.440 and listening.

00:28:29.680 So I think,

00:28:30.920 wow,

00:28:31.520 interesting.

00:28:31.980 it's conceivable

00:28:33.620 that we're smarter

00:28:34.360 than we think we are.

00:28:35.520 I don't mean Sam and I.

00:28:37.100 I mean,

00:28:38.020 I mean,

00:28:38.980 us,

00:28:39.900 broadly speaking,

00:28:41.040 we might have more capacity

00:28:42.360 for this sort of thing

00:28:43.220 than we realize

00:28:43.920 and there's certainly

00:28:44.980 an unbelievable hunger

00:28:46.440 for it.

00:28:47.560 I mean,

00:28:47.860 hence,

00:28:48.500 you know,

00:28:49.200 I've done,

00:28:50.200 this is I think

00:28:50.740 my 47th talk

00:28:52.560 in this tour series

00:28:54.240 and each of them

00:28:55.680 has been

00:28:56.320 to an audience

00:28:58.180 of at least

00:28:58.760 2,000 to 3,000 people

00:29:01.140 and everywhere,

00:29:02.820 right?

00:29:03.340 And so it's so interesting.

00:29:04.760 It's like,

00:29:05.440 well,

00:29:05.640 all this idiot polarization

00:29:06.800 is going on,

00:29:08.160 which is a really appalling thing.

00:29:09.360 At the same time,

00:29:10.520 there's this upswelling

00:29:11.580 in interest

00:29:12.780 in really engaged

00:29:14.400 high-level dialogue

00:29:15.340 and so it really makes me

00:29:16.920 feel hopeful.

00:29:18.040 And so then back

00:29:19.000 to the idea of winning,

00:29:20.160 which is where I started

00:29:21.040 this whole,

00:29:21.740 like,

00:29:22.620 what would you call it,

00:29:23.580 digressive monologue

00:29:24.860 to begin with.

00:29:26.140 So,

00:29:27.320 we're faced with

00:29:28.140 this frontier

00:29:29.980 of ever-expanding

00:29:31.120 technological transformation

00:29:32.980 and it's going to

00:29:34.140 speed up on us

00:29:35.020 and some of that's

00:29:36.360 really good

00:29:36.800 because there's

00:29:37.380 tremendous opportunity

00:29:39.000 in the technological revolution

00:29:40.960 and we can see that

00:29:41.700 manifesting itself,

00:29:42.700 right,

00:29:42.900 in the rapid improvement

00:29:44.900 in our communication

00:29:45.860 technologies,

00:29:46.720 but in all sorts

00:29:47.280 of other ways too

00:29:47.960 because,

00:29:48.700 you know,

00:29:48.980 the world is actually

00:29:50.060 getting better

00:29:50.780 at a macro level

00:29:52.260 in a very large

00:29:54.680 number of ways.

00:29:55.600 There's been like

00:29:56.040 a dozen books

00:29:56.860 published in the last

00:29:57.740 four years

00:29:58.420 which are kind of

00:29:59.140 like a new breed

00:30:00.240 of social commentary

00:30:01.740 saying,

00:30:03.080 oh my God,

00:30:04.560 who would have guessed it?

00:30:06.280 Here's 30 measures

00:30:07.720 of how we're doing

00:30:08.660 and on every single

00:30:09.660 one of them

00:30:10.140 around the world,

00:30:10.980 we're doing way better

00:30:12.080 than we ever did

00:30:12.800 and that's getting better

00:30:13.960 faster and faster

00:30:14.760 and faster and faster.

00:30:16.060 It's like,

00:30:16.320 how the hell

00:30:17.000 did that happen?

00:30:18.000 This was supposed

00:30:18.760 to be that

00:30:19.320 we were all supposed

00:30:20.120 to starve to death

00:30:20.980 right now

00:30:21.420 or to have,

00:30:22.260 you know,

00:30:22.680 wiped everything out

00:30:23.560 into extinction

00:30:24.240 or blown ourselves

00:30:25.260 up in a nuclear apocalypse

00:30:26.600 or smothered ourselves

00:30:28.260 in carbon dioxide

00:30:29.260 or something like that

00:30:30.360 and instead

00:30:31.200 what seems to be happening

00:30:32.260 is everyone in the planet

00:30:34.020 is getting richer

00:30:34.900 and at the same time

00:30:37.020 as they get richer,

00:30:38.820 proportionally,

00:30:39.500 they're doing less

00:30:40.060 ecological damage

00:30:41.300 because it turns out

00:30:42.180 that the best way

00:30:42.980 to stop people

00:30:43.580 from ruining the planet

00:30:44.360 is to make everyone rich.

00:30:46.260 Oh, no one saw that coming

00:30:48.600 and so, okay,

00:30:51.180 so then the political scientist

00:30:54.420 who's trying to corner me,

00:30:55.660 you know,

00:30:55.820 he's talking about policy,

00:30:57.020 policy, policy,

00:30:57.760 what's your political stance

00:30:58.880 and my point was,

00:31:00.520 I don't have a political stance.

00:31:02.260 Here's my theory.

00:31:04.680 Things are changing so fast

00:31:06.300 that we can barely keep up

00:31:07.460 and they're changing so fast

00:31:09.140 we can't predict the future.

00:31:10.700 So what the hell

00:31:11.480 are you supposed to do

00:31:12.140 for policy

00:31:12.700 when you can't predict the future?

00:31:14.940 And the answer is

00:31:15.780 make better people

00:31:17.800 because what we need to,

00:31:20.160 yes, that's it.

00:31:22.180 That's it.

00:31:22.840 It's like

00:31:23.240 things are coming at you, man.

00:31:27.240 They're going to come at you

00:31:28.080 faster and faster.

00:31:29.260 You better get your act together.

00:31:31.060 You better get your act together.

00:31:32.320 You better be less stupid

00:31:33.460 than you were.

00:31:34.360 You better be sharper

00:31:35.260 than you are, right?

00:31:36.560 You better be awake and ready

00:31:38.240 and if you are,

00:31:39.880 then maybe you'll be able

00:31:40.720 to make good use of all this

00:31:42.080 and maybe whatever decision

00:31:43.880 comes your way

00:31:45.020 and who knows

00:31:45.700 what those decisions will be,

00:31:47.260 you'll be on your toes

00:31:48.240 and you'll be like a boxer

00:31:49.420 and you'll be ready

00:31:50.100 to take it on

00:31:50.840 and collectively

00:31:51.860 we'll make the proper decisions

00:31:53.200 so that we can exploit

00:31:54.340 this ever-expanding technology

00:31:56.060 in a way that will make things

00:31:57.500 better and better.

00:31:58.800 And so that's a good policy decision

00:32:00.420 and so the reason that I think

00:32:02.200 that it's necessary

00:32:03.060 to go after the individual,

00:32:05.060 let's say,

00:32:05.460 which I think is the proper level

00:32:06.860 of analysis,

00:32:07.360 but I am a psychologist after all.

00:32:09.500 It's not surprising

00:32:10.200 I think that way.

00:32:11.480 I think the reason

00:32:12.280 that the fortification

00:32:13.900 of the individual

00:32:14.640 is necessary

00:32:15.260 is because

00:32:15.820 I don't care about the policies.

00:32:18.820 I care about the people.

00:32:20.300 Good people

00:32:21.060 will make good policies.

00:32:24.300 And so it's like

00:32:25.360 I don't have to worry

00:32:26.220 about adjusting the policies.

00:32:28.040 I'm not that interested

00:32:28.940 in that anyways.

00:32:30.060 I'd rather adjust

00:32:31.240 the mechanism

00:32:31.880 by which the policies

00:32:32.920 are being generated

00:32:33.880 and that's you guys

00:32:35.540 because of course

00:32:36.280 our system,

00:32:37.800 our western system,

00:32:38.840 increasingly functional systems

00:32:41.560 everywhere around the world

00:32:42.940 are predicated on the idea

00:32:44.980 of the responsible,

00:32:46.260 sovereign individual.

00:32:47.660 Right?

00:32:48.020 And that's the linchpin.

00:32:50.060 It's like

00:32:50.420 if you're a...

00:32:52.360 And, you know,

00:32:55.620 notice how I phrased that.

00:32:57.300 I didn't say

00:32:58.200 the sovereign individual

00:33:00.080 with all his or her rights

00:33:01.740 because at the moment

00:33:03.320 I don't give a damn

00:33:04.000 about rights.

00:33:04.680 We've had enough conversation

00:33:05.880 about bloody rights,

00:33:07.160 you know,

00:33:07.760 but we haven't had enough conversation

00:33:09.780 about responsibility.

00:33:10.620 And so

00:33:12.420 if you're the linchpin

00:33:14.060 of the system

00:33:14.940 and you are

00:33:15.840 because that's how

00:33:16.420 the system's set up,

00:33:17.520 that's...

00:33:17.920 It's predicate

00:33:18.860 is the notion

00:33:20.040 that sovereignty

00:33:20.960 inheres in the individual

00:33:22.780 and that's you,

00:33:24.720 then you better

00:33:26.120 get your act together

00:33:26.840 because if you don't

00:33:27.560 have your act together

00:33:28.340 and you're the linchpin

00:33:29.660 then the whole damn thing

00:33:30.500 is going to wobble and fall.

00:33:32.560 And so...

00:33:33.040 And that's also

00:33:33.840 what I see

00:33:35.060 as the proper pathway

00:33:36.160 out of this political polarization

00:33:37.480 which is quite dangerous.

00:33:39.660 It's right,

00:33:40.040 like, you know,

00:33:40.620 because as the...

00:33:41.860 And I think this is mostly driven

00:33:43.180 by subsidized idiocy

00:33:45.840 on the radical left

00:33:47.140 but...

00:33:48.400 But...

00:33:49.040 Which is something

00:33:49.780 that we need to sort out

00:33:50.800 as a society.

00:33:53.260 But, you know,

00:33:54.260 as the left gets more radical,

00:33:56.620 the right gets more rigid

00:33:58.320 and then the left gets more radical

00:34:00.200 and the right gets more rigid

00:34:01.360 and that's a positive feedback loop

00:34:03.100 and that's not a good thing.

00:34:04.820 Positive feedback loops

00:34:06.440 destroy complex systems.

00:34:08.480 Say, well,

00:34:08.800 how the hell do you step away from that?

00:34:10.620 And to me,

00:34:11.640 the answer is something like

00:34:12.800 get your act together.

00:34:14.700 Make yourself stronger.

00:34:16.060 Make yourself more awake.

00:34:17.540 Make yourself less resentful.

00:34:19.720 Develop a vision for your life.

00:34:21.420 Accept more responsibility.

00:34:23.040 Be more careful with what you say.

00:34:24.860 Like, really,

00:34:25.540 I really believe it's on you.

00:34:28.320 And so then I think

00:34:29.200 the best way out of the polarization is...

00:34:30.900 And so the way I've been conceptualizing

00:34:33.940 the political situation right now

00:34:35.420 is think left, right.

00:34:38.260 That's how we usually look at it.

00:34:40.340 And so there's an antipathy between them

00:34:42.640 and maybe there's something in the middle.

00:34:45.340 But I don't...

00:34:46.000 That has its utility,

00:34:47.160 that conceptual scheme,

00:34:48.040 but I don't think it's correct at the moment.

00:34:50.220 What I see happening is

00:34:51.480 collectivism, individualism.

00:34:55.020 That's the struggle.

00:34:56.640 And then within the collectivist domain,

00:34:59.440 there's left and right.

00:35:00.780 There's the radical leftists

00:35:02.260 who are playing identity politics

00:35:03.460 and there's the radical right-wingers

00:35:04.900 who are playing identity politics.

00:35:06.480 But they're both in the collectivist sphere.

00:35:09.320 And that's the threat,

00:35:10.380 as far as I'm concerned.

00:35:11.420 But the way that you manifest resistance

00:35:14.820 to the threat of collectivism

00:35:16.560 is by strengthening yourself as an individual.

00:35:18.440 You can't enter the identity politics game

00:35:21.560 and play in that realm

00:35:23.340 because then you're in that game.

00:35:26.080 And if you're in that game,

00:35:27.520 then the people...

00:35:28.620 You know, if you play Monopoly and win,

00:35:31.240 you're still playing Monopoly, right.

00:35:33.760 So, and if the game is rotten,

00:35:35.680 then you don't want to win the game.

00:35:37.900 You want to play a better game.

00:35:39.380 And what I'm hoping is being outlined

00:35:41.540 and what I'm trying to outline,

00:35:42.780 I hope, I pray, let's say,

00:35:45.700 I'm trying to outline a better game.

00:35:47.760 And the game is

00:35:48.760 understand that the idea

00:35:53.300 that sovereignty inheres in the individual

00:35:55.800 is the most fundamental idea

00:35:57.820 of functional cultures.

00:35:59.340 And I believe that's true.

00:36:00.360 And I wouldn't just say

00:36:01.000 functional Western cultures

00:36:02.220 because I've tracked the idea,

00:36:04.100 the development of the idea

00:36:05.900 of the sovereign individual.

00:36:07.020 I've tracked that back about 4,000 years,

00:36:09.320 something like that.

00:36:10.500 And most of that's outlined in Maps of Meaning.

00:36:12.700 That idea came,

00:36:14.480 emerged with great difficulty.

00:36:16.240 You know, the idea that

00:36:17.340 every individual is sovereign,

00:36:20.180 that's a strange idea

00:36:21.640 because, of course,

00:36:22.360 what you'd think is,

00:36:23.980 no, only the most powerful individual

00:36:25.780 is sovereign.

00:36:27.240 Right, that's how it looks.

00:36:29.000 You know, if it's a monarchy,

00:36:30.660 the king is sovereign.

00:36:31.840 Why?

00:36:32.360 Well, he holds all the power.

00:36:33.400 Where'd we get this crazy idea

00:36:35.300 that every individual was sovereign?

00:36:38.380 Well, it is.

00:36:38.940 It's an absolutely mind-boggling,

00:36:40.940 amazing, miraculous idea.

00:36:43.020 It really is.

00:36:44.180 And what's so cool about it

00:36:45.380 is it actually works.

00:36:46.400 If you accept that idea

00:36:48.080 and then you build

00:36:49.400 your personality on it

00:36:51.320 and you build your family on it,

00:36:53.300 like you treat all your family members

00:36:54.860 like they're responsible,

00:36:56.200 sovereign individuals,

00:36:57.320 then your family thrives.

00:36:58.740 If you build a society

00:37:00.600 that's predicated on the idea

00:37:02.340 that the people who make up the society

00:37:03.980 are responsible, sovereign individuals,

00:37:06.640 then all of a sudden

00:37:07.520 the society works

00:37:08.580 and it's very productive

00:37:09.900 and it's peaceful,

00:37:11.040 you know, reasonably,

00:37:11.980 given that we're also

00:37:12.760 half-insane chimpanzees,

00:37:14.820 reasonably peaceful,

00:37:16.360 and it becomes productive.

00:37:18.340 And although there's inequality,

00:37:20.200 you know,

00:37:20.480 the absolute level of wealth grows

00:37:22.400 and the horrors of privation recede.

00:37:26.120 It's like,

00:37:26.540 this is a very powerful idea.

00:37:28.800 And so,

00:37:29.800 if it is the case

00:37:30.720 that the correct idea

00:37:32.420 is that sovereignty

00:37:33.360 inheres in the individual,

00:37:34.560 in the responsible individual,

00:37:36.280 then it's obviously the case

00:37:38.240 that making better individuals

00:37:39.460 is the best thing

00:37:40.300 that you can possibly do.

00:37:41.700 And I was trying to outline that

00:37:42.980 to this character

00:37:44.480 who was trying to corner me,

00:37:45.680 but this isn't something that,

00:37:48.100 this is something I've also noticed

00:37:49.400 with the press coverage that I get,

00:37:51.600 some of which is positive,

00:37:53.540 a lot of which is viciously negative,

00:37:56.540 and I've been trying to figure out,

00:37:59.280 well, why is it?

00:38:00.400 No one,

00:38:00.900 almost no one ever writes

00:38:02.600 about what's actually happening

00:38:04.020 because what's actually happening

00:38:05.720 is that,

00:38:06.820 well,

00:38:07.140 I've gone to about 50 cities now

00:38:09.720 and in each city,

00:38:10.900 I get about 20,

00:38:11.920 as I said,

00:38:12.560 about 2,500 people come out

00:38:14.020 and we have a really intense

00:38:15.640 intellectual discussion

00:38:16.920 about individual responsibility

00:38:19.020 and psychological development

00:38:20.760 and the relationship between that

00:38:22.080 and the general political sphere

00:38:23.760 and then everyone goes home

00:38:26.500 reasonably satisfied with the evening.

00:38:28.820 It's like,

00:38:29.400 that doesn't seem to be a story

00:38:31.480 that the politics-obsessed media

00:38:35.440 can even see.

00:38:37.820 It doesn't fit into the,

00:38:40.020 whatever this,

00:38:41.120 the a-priori narrative is.

00:38:42.880 And so it just gets ignored

00:38:44.020 and I think,

00:38:44.680 well,

00:38:45.100 you can ignore it all you want,

00:38:46.280 but it's,

00:38:47.180 as far as I can tell,

00:38:48.200 it's what's happening.

00:38:48.980 You know,

00:38:50.180 and one of the things

00:38:51.140 I've noticed about these events

00:38:52.420 that's been really...

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00:41:39.480 Well, surprising.

00:41:43.480 There's many surprising

00:41:44.380 things about them.

00:41:45.220 One of the things

00:41:46.060 that's really surprising

00:41:46.900 about them

00:41:47.280 is that they're

00:41:47.740 unbelievably positive.

00:41:50.100 You know,

00:41:50.420 and the tenor of the crowd

00:41:52.560 to begin with

00:41:53.280 is positive

00:41:53.760 and the content

00:41:55.400 of the lecture

00:41:56.280 I think is positive

00:41:57.200 although, you know,

00:41:57.800 I'm critical of ideologues

00:41:59.540 but I think they deserve it.

00:42:01.100 And then I talk to 150 people

00:42:07.620 afterwards after each event

00:42:08.820 something like that

00:42:09.540 and people tell me two things

00:42:11.900 generally when they talk to me

00:42:13.360 they say

00:42:14.260 about a third of the people

00:42:17.220 a quarter maybe

00:42:18.260 say

00:42:18.940 you've helped me articulate

00:42:22.080 find words for

00:42:23.800 things that I always knew

00:42:26.220 were true

00:42:26.680 but didn't know how to say.

00:42:28.600 And I think

00:42:29.100 well, that makes sense

00:42:29.960 because when you

00:42:30.640 tell archetypal stories

00:42:32.160 that that's exactly

00:42:33.080 what happens

00:42:33.620 because what an archetypal story

00:42:35.500 does is

00:42:36.780 give image and word

00:42:39.120 to fundamental realities.

00:42:41.400 Right?

00:42:42.720 Truly fundamental realities

00:42:44.380 and

00:42:45.040 a knowledge of those realities

00:42:47.120 is built into us

00:42:48.160 insofar as we're even

00:42:49.340 ambulating successfully

00:42:51.260 on the surface of the planet.

00:42:53.260 You know,

00:42:53.460 if you're not oriented

00:42:54.600 to some degree

00:42:55.700 with relationship

00:42:57.720 to fundamental realities

00:42:58.880 then you're going to be

00:42:59.620 at least suffering

00:43:00.800 and probably dying.

00:43:02.280 Like,

00:43:02.840 your health

00:43:03.440 your survival

00:43:06.220 is predicated

00:43:07.160 on a certain degree

00:43:08.300 of embodied wisdom.

00:43:10.080 And it doesn't mean

00:43:10.820 that you necessarily

00:43:11.720 have a representation

00:43:14.000 of that wisdom

00:43:14.900 or that you can articulate it.

00:43:16.440 It's still there though.

00:43:17.540 It's built into the way

00:43:18.480 that you interact with people.

00:43:20.060 You know,

00:43:20.380 you can't understand

00:43:21.820 all the ways

00:43:22.520 that you know

00:43:23.020 how to interact with people

00:43:24.140 because you're more complicated

00:43:25.760 than you can map.

00:43:27.720 But you can provide people

00:43:29.200 and a psychologist

00:43:30.180 should do this

00:43:30.980 provide people

00:43:32.180 with the images

00:43:32.940 and the words

00:43:33.600 that are useful

00:43:34.320 to map what they already know.

00:43:36.260 And that's really useful

00:43:37.240 because then you bring

00:43:38.160 people's behavioral wisdom

00:43:39.900 and

00:43:41.080 you know,

00:43:42.180 you've met people

00:43:42.880 in your life

00:43:43.380 that weren't that educated

00:43:44.420 they weren't that articulate

00:43:45.380 but they were really

00:43:46.500 solid characters

00:43:47.680 who were well grounded

00:43:48.820 in the world

00:43:49.340 and who were conducting

00:43:50.060 themselves properly.

00:43:51.600 And it's not like

00:43:52.280 they could give

00:43:52.920 an elaborated

00:43:53.800 philosophical account

00:43:55.300 of the structure

00:43:56.880 of the ethic

00:43:57.880 that guides them.

00:43:59.400 They couldn't do that

00:44:00.220 because they're not

00:44:00.940 well educated

00:44:01.680 they're not that articulate.

00:44:03.260 But that doesn't mean

00:44:03.920 they're not living it out.

00:44:05.460 But the optimal situation

00:44:07.080 is

00:44:07.460 you live it out

00:44:08.940 so it's embodied

00:44:09.620 in your action.

00:44:10.640 You can represent it

00:44:11.920 and you can articulate it

00:44:13.920 because then all of the

00:44:15.220 ways that you interact

00:44:16.280 with the world

00:44:16.720 are in alignment.

00:44:17.980 And so when people say

00:44:18.900 you've helped me find words

00:44:20.480 to describe what I always

00:44:21.960 knew to be true

00:44:22.680 then that's what

00:44:23.740 they're describing.

00:44:24.420 And this is a very

00:44:25.160 old idea too.

00:44:26.100 You know one of the things

00:44:27.240 that Socrates claimed

00:44:28.400 you know thousands

00:44:30.140 of years ago

00:44:30.820 when people first started

00:44:32.680 to think about thinking

00:44:33.960 was that he believed

00:44:35.240 that all knowledge

00:44:36.960 all learning

00:44:37.860 was remembering.

00:44:40.440 You know so there was

00:44:41.100 a metaphysical idea

00:44:42.000 that went along with that

00:44:42.860 was that before you were born

00:44:44.640 whatever you were

00:44:45.780 knew everything

00:44:46.480 and then that was forgotten

00:44:47.660 at birth

00:44:48.340 at your point of birth

00:44:49.300 and then as you lived

00:44:50.780 you remembered

00:44:51.440 what you had once known.

00:44:53.240 And it's an interesting

00:44:54.060 it's a really interesting idea

00:44:55.320 although it sounds

00:44:55.960 foreign to modern ears

00:44:57.080 it's sort of like

00:44:57.760 it's more like

00:44:58.580 well a lot of your wisdom

00:45:00.720 is built into your biology

00:45:03.380 and it's revealed to you

00:45:05.940 as you stress yourself

00:45:07.520 in life.

00:45:08.500 So one of the things

00:45:09.420 we've learned recently

00:45:10.320 this is so cool

00:45:11.320 for example

00:45:12.340 is well

00:45:12.700 you know if you put yourself

00:45:14.280 in a new situation

00:45:15.200 and challenge yourself

00:45:16.160 you obviously learn

00:45:17.060 new things

00:45:17.700 and so you might think

00:45:19.160 well you learn that

00:45:20.020 by incorporating

00:45:21.060 the information

00:45:21.860 that's in the new situation

00:45:23.180 and that is part of what you do

00:45:25.040 but here's something else

00:45:25.960 that you do

00:45:26.460 if I take you out of a situation

00:45:28.740 that you're already adapted to

00:45:30.160 and I put you in a new situation

00:45:31.840 new genes turn on

00:45:34.280 in your brain

00:45:35.080 and they code for new proteins

00:45:37.500 and they make new neural structures

00:45:38.920 and it's so like

00:45:39.660 one of the things

00:45:41.060 that's really remarkable

00:45:42.040 about each of us

00:45:42.960 is that there's way more to you

00:45:44.880 than you have manifested

00:45:46.400 right now

00:45:47.180 but the only way

00:45:48.780 that will reveal itself

00:45:49.820 is if you put yourself

00:45:50.860 in a new situation

00:45:51.740 and stress yourself

00:45:53.040 and when you stress yourself

00:45:55.220 you have to go beyond

00:45:56.280 where you are

00:45:56.960 the stress is an indication

00:45:59.180 that you're not good enough

00:46:00.580 to master the situation

00:46:01.700 and that will force development

00:46:03.640 and some of that's

00:46:04.700 incorporation of information

00:46:05.920 but some of that's

00:46:06.700 the manifestation

00:46:07.520 of who you could yet be

00:46:09.360 that's encoded within you

00:46:11.000 at a biological level

00:46:12.200 so that's such a cool idea

00:46:14.500 so I can tell you

00:46:16.840 an interesting

00:46:17.400 let me tell you

00:46:18.160 an interesting story

00:46:18.960 about that

00:46:19.520 about that idea

00:46:20.660 so there's this idea

00:46:22.480 a deep religious idea

00:46:23.900 that at some point

00:46:24.780 you should go

00:46:25.320 on a pilgrimage

00:46:25.940 in your life

00:46:26.560 you should go

00:46:27.000 to the holy city

00:46:28.100 wherever that is

00:46:29.120 it's the symbolic

00:46:29.940 center of the world

00:46:31.120 now you think about

00:46:32.460 what that means

00:46:33.180 imagine this medieval idea

00:46:34.740 let's say

00:46:35.160 so you're some guy

00:46:36.420 who lives in

00:46:36.960 a medieval village

00:46:38.020 it's like you haven't been

00:46:38.940 more than three miles away

00:46:40.480 from home your whole life

00:46:41.640 right

00:46:41.900 you're pretty parochial

00:46:43.880 and narrow

00:46:44.260 you're like a small town kid

00:46:45.580 except on a really small scale

00:46:47.660 and then all of a sudden

00:46:48.720 you have to go

00:46:49.180 on a pilgrimage

00:46:49.800 it's like

00:46:51.360 and so you have to trek

00:46:52.280 across foreign lands

00:46:53.700 you have to go

00:46:54.140 a couple of thousand miles away

00:46:55.380 you might even die

00:46:56.480 along the way

00:46:57.240 which is certainly

00:46:58.100 going to have

00:46:58.540 all sorts of crazy adventures

00:46:59.860 that's for sure

00:47:00.900 that's your quest

00:47:02.100 let's say

00:47:02.840 and so

00:47:03.800 as you

00:47:04.940 as you

00:47:06.080 travel to the holy city

00:47:08.080 you have all sorts

00:47:09.080 of experiences

00:47:09.980 and those experiences

00:47:11.640 mature you

00:47:13.120 and make you wiser

00:47:14.420 and so

00:47:15.600 the journey itself

00:47:17.180 to a symbolic place

00:47:18.860 which would be

00:47:19.320 the holy city

00:47:20.000 let's say

00:47:20.460 is also a practical

00:47:21.860 revelation

00:47:22.460 of who you are

00:47:23.160 and when you make it

00:47:24.100 to the holy city

00:47:24.840 and you make it back

00:47:25.820 you're not the same person

00:47:27.040 you were

00:47:27.520 when you left

00:47:28.540 you're seriously

00:47:29.940 not the same person

00:47:30.920 and so you actually

00:47:31.740 have made a spiritual journey

00:47:33.200 even though it was also

00:47:34.240 a physical journey

00:47:35.100 so

00:47:36.060 now

00:47:37.180 here's one of the things

00:47:38.620 that happened

00:47:39.140 with cathedral design

00:47:40.620 in the medieval period

00:47:42.020 this is so

00:47:42.760 it's so ridiculously cool

00:47:44.340 that this actually occurred

00:47:45.600 so

00:47:45.860 imagine that one of the things

00:47:47.360 that happens

00:47:47.800 when you go on a pilgrimage

00:47:48.740 is you get tougher

00:47:49.660 well you could imagine that

00:47:51.200 right

00:47:51.360 you get more resilient

00:47:52.180 of course you know that

00:47:53.560 because

00:47:53.860 one of the ways

00:47:54.860 that you're going to get

00:47:55.680 more resilient

00:47:56.280 is to get the hell out

00:47:57.260 of your mother's house

00:47:58.280 right

00:47:59.240 so if you're just hiding out

00:48:00.460 in your mother's house

00:48:01.420 then

00:48:01.720 or your father's house

00:48:02.800 for that matter

00:48:03.380 then

00:48:03.980 you're not going to be resilient

00:48:05.120 because you haven't stressed yourself

00:48:06.420 and then if you do go out

00:48:07.600 and you get stressed

00:48:08.280 then it's going to really hurt you

00:48:09.960 and naive people

00:48:11.540 are more likely

00:48:12.120 to develop

00:48:12.600 post-traumatic stress disorder

00:48:13.920 and we know already

00:48:15.000 that even with animals

00:48:16.020 this has been well documented

00:48:17.760 in the animal experimental literature

00:48:19.160 if you want to make

00:48:20.460 a robust resilient animal

00:48:21.860 you handle it a lot

00:48:22.980 when it's young

00:48:24.320 you stress it

00:48:25.420 not too much

00:48:26.380 right

00:48:26.680 because

00:48:27.040 if you stress it too much

00:48:28.220 you damage it

00:48:28.880 but

00:48:29.020 you push it right

00:48:29.880 to the limit

00:48:30.440 of its tolerance

00:48:31.220 and then it gets tougher

00:48:32.900 and tougher

00:48:33.280 and tougher

00:48:33.640 and then as an adult

00:48:34.480 its reaction to stress

00:48:36.540 is much mitigated

00:48:37.620 so anyways

00:48:38.480 you get the hell out

00:48:39.240 of your house

00:48:39.760 and you go out there

00:48:40.800 and you toughen yourself

00:48:41.660 up against the world

00:48:42.660 and so there's a lot more to you

00:48:44.300 and it's because you got wiser

00:48:45.640 because you incorporated

00:48:46.780 the information

00:48:47.520 that you acquired

00:48:49.280 while you were traveling

00:48:50.160 let's say

00:48:50.680 having your adventure

00:48:51.620 but it's also because

00:48:53.080 by putting yourself

00:48:54.420 in places

00:48:55.000 that push you

00:48:55.780 beyond who you already are

00:48:57.160 all sorts of parts of you

00:48:58.540 that weren't on

00:48:59.320 turn on

00:49:00.140 and so

00:49:01.240 that really opens up

00:49:02.380 a question man

00:49:03.120 it's like

00:49:03.460 what would you be like

00:49:04.520 if you turned everything

00:49:05.640 in you

00:49:06.400 that you could turn on

00:49:07.820 what would you be like

00:49:09.780 well you'd be a lot

00:49:11.180 you have some sense of that

00:49:13.080 because you already know

00:49:14.100 that when you've taken

00:49:15.600 a challenge on

00:49:16.400 in your life

00:49:17.000 you've developed

00:49:18.520 right

00:49:18.940 in relationship

00:49:19.560 to the challenge

00:49:20.240 the simplest example

00:49:21.440 of that is just

00:49:21.960 to go to the gym

00:49:22.600 and work out with weights

00:49:23.580 you know

00:49:24.160 you start with

00:49:25.220 relatively light weights

00:49:26.540 and you be careful

00:49:27.680 and then you progress

00:49:28.580 you lift heavier

00:49:29.700 and heavier

00:49:30.140 and heavier weights

00:49:30.900 and what happens

00:49:32.020 well you get

00:49:32.800 stronger and leaner

00:49:34.920 and more confident

00:49:36.060 your posture improves

00:49:37.200 you get more coordinated

00:49:38.480 right

00:49:39.320 you get more dominant

00:49:40.160 but in the confident

00:49:41.840 sort of way

00:49:42.580 and who knows

00:49:43.760 what the upper limit

00:49:44.500 to that is

00:49:44.920 you see that

00:49:45.460 in superb athletes

00:49:46.520 right there

00:49:47.040 and it's not

00:49:48.340 a place that everybody

00:49:49.340 can go

00:49:49.760 because it takes

00:49:50.380 so much dedication

00:49:51.200 but you can push yourself

00:49:52.340 a long ways

00:49:52.960 along that axis

00:49:53.720 and obviously it works

00:49:55.160 you can end up

00:49:55.900 physiologically

00:49:57.200 and psychologically

00:49:58.560 radically different

00:50:00.160 than you were

00:50:00.940 and you think

00:50:02.020 well that's just musculature

00:50:03.400 it's like

00:50:03.820 no it's not

00:50:04.540 so one of the things

00:50:06.520 that happens to people

00:50:07.740 is your cognitive power

00:50:09.700 declines quite radically

00:50:11.340 from the age of 25 onward

00:50:13.320 it's if you look at the graphs

00:50:15.000 it's pretty damn dismal

00:50:16.080 you know

00:50:16.600 it's you're just getting

00:50:17.420 stupider all the time

00:50:18.380 you're not exactly

00:50:20.500 because you acquire wisdom

00:50:21.840 along the way

00:50:22.540 but your processing speed

00:50:24.160 tends to decline

00:50:24.960 the best way to stave that off

00:50:27.540 is not to do cognitive exercises

00:50:30.580 like lumosity

00:50:31.600 it's not to keep yourself

00:50:32.720 cognitively engaged

00:50:33.780 even though that's helpful

00:50:34.700 the best way to stave that off

00:50:36.300 is to exercise

00:50:37.220 it doesn't matter

00:50:38.560 whether it's weight lifting

00:50:39.420 or cardiovascular exercise

00:50:40.720 if you're 50

00:50:41.880 you can restore

00:50:42.700 your cognitive function

00:50:43.700 to what it was

00:50:44.260 when you were 30

00:50:44.960 if you undertake

00:50:46.680 a rigorous program

00:50:48.100 of cardiovascular exercise

00:50:49.900 and weight lifting

00:50:51.200 and it's because

00:50:52.280 your brain

00:50:52.740 is unbelievably demanding

00:50:54.280 as a cardiovascular organ

00:50:55.720 it needs oxygen

00:50:56.880 and it's very oxygen hungry

00:50:58.720 and so if your

00:50:59.380 cardiovascular system

00:51:00.380 is compromised

00:51:00.900 then you get stupid

00:51:02.200 so if you go

00:51:03.200 if you go work out

00:51:04.760 then you get smarter

00:51:06.500 like who would have guessed that

00:51:08.240 but

00:51:08.940 I mean it's exactly

00:51:10.480 the opposite of the stereotype

00:51:12.020 right

00:51:12.600 it's so

00:51:13.420 okay so

00:51:14.760 you can see

00:51:15.560 you push yourself

00:51:16.400 and there's a good example

00:51:17.720 not only do you develop

00:51:19.080 physiologically

00:51:19.720 but you develop

00:51:20.460 psychologically

00:51:21.180 and cognitively

00:51:22.040 and you do that by

00:51:22.900 pushing yourself

00:51:23.960 to your limit

00:51:25.120 carefully

00:51:25.900 not so much

00:51:26.660 that you get hurt

00:51:27.280 but carefully

00:51:27.840 okay so

00:51:28.640 here's what happened

00:51:30.080 in the middle ages

00:51:31.520 when people were

00:51:32.160 designing cathedrals

00:51:33.160 so I already said

00:51:34.340 that if you push yourself

00:51:35.400 you get able to bear

00:51:37.160 catastrophe

00:51:38.080 more

00:51:39.560 more

00:51:40.380 in a more resilient manner

00:51:42.460 you get tougher

00:51:43.380 you might think

00:51:44.720 well how tough

00:51:45.220 can you get

00:51:45.860 it's like

00:51:46.920 well you better get pretty tough

00:51:48.040 because you've got a lot of

00:51:48.720 catastrophe to contend with

00:51:50.040 you've got your own mortality

00:51:51.660 to contend with

00:51:52.660 right

00:51:53.260 you've got the mortality

00:51:54.000 of the people

00:51:54.560 that you love to contend with

00:51:55.900 and more than that

00:51:56.960 you also have the malevolence

00:51:58.720 of yourself

00:51:59.320 and the world

00:51:59.880 to contend with

00:52:00.660 so you've got a challenge there

00:52:02.460 so you better get yourself

00:52:03.540 damn tough

00:52:04.200 and so

00:52:05.380 and we don't know

00:52:06.920 the upper limit to that

00:52:07.820 maybe you can get tough enough

00:52:09.240 to contend with the tragedy

00:52:10.720 of the world

00:52:11.340 that's what you hope

00:52:12.420 when you raise children

00:52:13.220 for example

00:52:13.780 that they don't have to hide

00:52:15.140 from the fact that

00:52:16.120 life has a terrible

00:52:17.520 tragic dark side

00:52:18.860 but they can confront that

00:52:20.060 directly

00:52:20.560 with their eyes open

00:52:21.640 and they can withstand it

00:52:22.960 like

00:52:23.120 one of the things

00:52:23.900 I often tell my

00:52:24.760 my students is

00:52:26.240 here's a goal

00:52:27.180 you want to be

00:52:28.200 the strongest person

00:52:29.200 at your father's funeral

00:52:30.420 you know

00:52:32.180 you think

00:52:32.460 well what should you do

00:52:33.140 with your life

00:52:33.560 well you should be happy

00:52:34.660 it's like

00:52:35.180 look if you're

00:52:36.580 if you've got some time

00:52:37.560 to be happy

00:52:38.120 and it comes your way

00:52:39.020 it's like

00:52:39.380 enjoy it man

00:52:40.520 it's great

00:52:41.540 it's a grace of God

00:52:42.780 like

00:52:43.060 if it's being bestowed

00:52:44.740 upon you

00:52:45.280 enjoy it

00:52:45.980 but

00:52:46.520 as a goal for life

00:52:48.320 it's like

00:52:48.780 that's just

00:52:49.400 how's that going to work out

00:52:50.640 when you're at

00:52:51.040 your father's funeral

00:52:51.880 and I'm happy

00:52:53.460 it's like

00:52:54.080 no you're not

00:52:54.840 and no wonder

00:52:56.240 and there's going to be

00:52:57.200 plenty of times

00:52:57.900 in your life

00:52:58.400 where

00:52:58.640 it's the tragedy

00:53:00.440 that's

00:53:01.080 that's most manifest

00:53:02.600 right

00:53:03.180 that'll happen to you

00:53:04.120 over and over

00:53:04.840 you have kids

00:53:05.700 you know

00:53:05.920 they get sick

00:53:06.600 or they fail

00:53:07.580 or

00:53:07.820 or

00:53:08.420 you know

00:53:09.060 you have to undergo

00:53:09.740 the illness of your partner

00:53:10.900 or yourself

00:53:11.540 there's all sorts of things

00:53:12.800 you're going to have to put up with

00:53:13.820 it's like

00:53:14.140 you want to be

00:53:15.080 ready for that

00:53:16.620 and able to bear it

00:53:17.660 right

00:53:18.160 and to bear it positively

00:53:19.560 so the funeral example

00:53:21.280 is a good one

00:53:21.820 it's like

00:53:22.100 well what are you going to do

00:53:22.860 is you going to hide out in a corner

00:53:24.740 and feel sorry for yourself

00:53:25.760 you have every reason to

00:53:27.320 your father just died

00:53:28.700 it's like

00:53:29.260 maybe you can't even live

00:53:30.640 you know

00:53:31.160 you could make a case

00:53:31.980 that it might not even be worth living

00:53:33.380 when someone that you love

00:53:34.600 so intently

00:53:35.700 passes

00:53:36.360 it's an absolute catastrophe

00:53:38.180 it's like

00:53:38.960 well

00:53:39.200 you want to be the person

00:53:40.280 who's helping everyone else

00:53:41.280 in a situation like that

00:53:42.360 that might be a good goal

00:53:44.520 so you're the

00:53:45.560 you're the person

00:53:46.200 who can

00:53:46.580 who can act nobly

00:53:48.260 in the face of tragedy

00:53:49.540 that's the goal

00:53:50.840 well that's a good goal

00:53:52.480 it's like

00:53:52.920 why wouldn't you want that

00:53:53.960 the tragedy is coming

00:53:55.600 and then you can help everyone else

00:53:57.240 through it

00:53:57.700 and yourself as well

00:53:59.200 and at least you can think

00:54:00.760 well

00:54:01.000 I didn't take that horrible situation

00:54:03.040 and make it worse

00:54:03.760 than it had to be

00:54:04.600 I did everything I could

00:54:06.140 to lighten the catastrophe

00:54:08.040 that's

00:54:08.860 that's a good goal for your life

00:54:10.160 that's a good epitaph

00:54:11.600 I did everything I could

00:54:13.060 to lighten the catastrophe

00:54:14.560 that would be

00:54:15.700 well really man

00:54:16.560 that would be a good thing

00:54:17.720 you know

00:54:18.040 okay

00:54:18.520 so back to cathedral design

00:54:19.980 and this is associated

00:54:20.920 with the idea

00:54:22.020 of the pilgrimage

00:54:22.740 well let's say

00:54:24.400 you can't afford a pilgrimage

00:54:26.320 but you still need

00:54:27.800 to go on one

00:54:28.540 well maybe you can go on one

00:54:29.760 psychologically

00:54:30.300 okay

00:54:31.280 so here's how

00:54:31.960 here's this idea

00:54:33.180 behind the construction

00:54:34.520 of a cathedral

00:54:35.280 okay

00:54:36.360 so if you look at a cathedral

00:54:37.520 from the top

00:54:38.140 it's a cross

00:54:38.980 okay

00:54:40.440 now you can imagine

00:54:41.260 why it's a cross

00:54:41.980 a cathedral is a Christian building

00:54:43.760 right

00:54:44.360 so it's built

00:54:44.980 in the shape of cross

00:54:45.960 now the place where the central ceremony

00:54:49.020 of transformation takes place

00:54:52.480 is right at the center of the cross

00:54:55.740 so that's sort of where you are

00:54:57.520 you're at the center

00:54:59.320 okay

00:55:00.600 and the center is the place

00:55:01.560 of maximal suffering

00:55:02.680 okay

00:55:03.780 so that's what the cathedral

00:55:05.420 symbolically represents

00:55:08.200 and

00:55:09.260 you

00:55:10.220 you

00:55:10.620 you

00:55:11.140 you eat the host

00:55:13.000 at the center

00:55:14.480 and that's supposed to

00:55:16.100 ally you with

00:55:17.100 the dying and resurrecting

00:55:18.540 savior

00:55:19.480 that's the idea

00:55:20.420 and the idea for that

00:55:21.680 is that that's the medication

00:55:22.940 that helps you contend

00:55:24.140 with the catastrophe of life

00:55:25.380 this ability to die

00:55:26.920 and be reborn

00:55:27.700 something like that

00:55:28.560 okay

00:55:29.120 so that's the idea

00:55:29.980 it's a

00:55:30.580 it's an absolutely

00:55:31.380 overwhelming idea

00:55:32.560 but

00:55:33.420 but here's a way

00:55:34.040 that it played out

00:55:34.840 it's so cool

00:55:35.940 this idea

00:55:36.480 I read this

00:55:38.000 Carl Jung outlined this

00:55:39.160 so

00:55:39.320 in the shark cathedral

00:55:40.540 for example

00:55:41.160 at the

00:55:41.960 at the midpoint

00:55:43.200 of the cathedral

00:55:44.100 so at the

00:55:44.800 at the crux

00:55:45.880 of the cross

00:55:46.460 the point of maximal suffering

00:55:47.880 there's a maze

00:55:49.280 so it's this big maze

00:55:51.180 it's a circle

00:55:51.860 and

00:55:53.200 it's divided into four parts

00:55:54.840 kind of like

00:55:55.300 you know those things

00:55:55.960 you see on maps

00:55:56.860 that orient you

00:55:57.760 north west

00:55:58.380 south and east

00:55:59.200 north south east

00:56:02.060 and west

00:56:02.460 sorry about that

00:56:03.200 and

00:56:03.860 and so what you do

00:56:05.580 is you

00:56:06.000 you enter the

00:56:07.300 maze

00:56:08.540 in one of the quadrants

00:56:10.760 and then you walk

00:56:12.380 the quadrant

00:56:13.040 the whole thing

00:56:14.120 you cover every square foot

00:56:15.600 of the quadrant

00:56:16.220 and then it takes you

00:56:17.920 into the next quadrant

00:56:18.840 and you cover every square foot

00:56:20.500 of that quadrant

00:56:21.260 and then that takes you

00:56:22.500 to the next one

00:56:23.300 and then

00:56:24.400 finally you get to the

00:56:25.640 fourth quadrant

00:56:26.300 and after you've gone

00:56:27.360 all the way through

00:56:27.860 the fourth quadrant

00:56:28.540 you get to the center

00:56:29.520 and it's

00:56:30.240 it's symbolized by a

00:56:31.520 something that looks like

00:56:32.460 a stone flower

00:56:33.460 and that's right in the

00:56:34.500 center of the cathedral

00:56:35.320 what's the idea

00:56:36.400 you have to go everywhere

00:56:38.620 to prepare yourself

00:56:40.220 to bear the load

00:56:40.980 of maximal suffering

00:56:42.000 God

00:56:43.380 it's such an

00:56:44.040 unbelievable idea

00:56:45.140 and it's all

00:56:45.580 and you think about

00:56:46.520 you think

00:56:47.320 well that's quite the idea

00:56:48.420 it's like

00:56:48.760 no no

00:56:49.080 you've got to really

00:56:49.660 think about this

00:56:50.560 like those cathedrals

00:56:52.340 they were like

00:56:52.800 the moonshot

00:56:53.680 of the medieval people

00:56:54.760 right

00:56:55.000 those bloody things

00:56:56.020 were expensive

00:56:56.680 those things took like

00:56:57.900 300 years to build

00:56:59.860 and they're the weirdest

00:57:01.100 buildings

00:57:01.620 they're these stone buildings

00:57:03.100 that are full of light

00:57:04.420 they stacked up stone

00:57:05.640 in some insane

00:57:06.900 stone doesn't stay up

00:57:08.300 in the air by itself

00:57:09.480 right

00:57:09.800 it's really hard

00:57:11.100 to make a 10 story

00:57:12.240 building out of stone

00:57:13.300 especially one that has

00:57:14.600 this open forest like

00:57:16.840 what would you say

00:57:18.580 this open forest like

00:57:20.000 aesthetic

00:57:20.800 because that's what

00:57:21.720 a cathedral is too

00:57:22.600 it's trees of stone

00:57:23.860 with the light shining

00:57:24.820 through the leaves

00:57:25.600 right

00:57:25.940 so it sort of

00:57:27.320 harkens back to

00:57:28.240 our deep

00:57:30.100 ancestral past

00:57:31.580 anyways

00:57:31.940 and it's beauty

00:57:34.080 and light

00:57:34.460 and music

00:57:34.900 and all of those things

00:57:35.740 it's a place

00:57:36.180 to meditate

00:57:36.700 on the fundamental

00:57:37.660 realities of being

00:57:38.800 but then

00:57:39.600 it's also a place

00:57:40.500 to act out

00:57:41.840 this process

00:57:42.600 of transformation

00:57:43.400 and the process

00:57:44.260 of transformation

00:57:44.920 is that

00:57:45.620 which turns you

00:57:46.680 into the being

00:57:47.840 that can properly

00:57:48.800 bear the burden

00:57:49.640 of existence

00:57:50.260 and you walk

00:57:51.840 the maze

00:57:52.300 to get to the center

00:57:53.160 and the idea

00:57:53.720 is you have to go

00:57:54.480 everywhere

00:57:54.800 to be who you

00:57:55.500 could be

00:57:56.000 it's like

00:57:57.080 god

00:57:57.440 that's such a

00:57:58.140 well that's an idea

00:57:59.560 worth

00:58:00.960 spending

00:58:02.000 300 years

00:58:03.740 to encapsulate

00:58:05.020 in stone

00:58:05.920 and that's what

00:58:07.100 happened

00:58:07.520 like that's exact

00:58:08.500 it's not as

00:58:10.280 exactly as if

00:58:11.420 the people

00:58:11.840 who were building

00:58:12.440 these buildings

00:58:13.000 knew everything

00:58:14.180 that they were doing

00:58:15.100 any more than

00:58:15.660 we know what the hell

00:58:16.480 we're doing

00:58:16.980 while we're doing

00:58:17.580 all the things

00:58:18.060 we're doing now

00:58:18.860 we're building

00:58:19.720 these amazing

00:58:20.500 constructions

00:58:21.300 we only have

00:58:22.200 a dim sense

00:58:23.540 in some sense

00:58:24.640 of the totality

00:58:25.780 of what we're up to

00:58:26.660 but that's part

00:58:27.340 of what they were up to

00:58:28.340 and so

00:58:29.180 and that relates

00:58:29.960 back to the idea

00:58:30.840 that I had

00:58:31.440 at the beginning

00:58:33.040 you say

00:58:33.400 well what am I

00:58:33.980 trying to do

00:58:34.620 with all of you

00:58:36.040 I hope

00:58:36.440 what are we

00:58:36.940 trying to do

00:58:37.540 well what I'm

00:58:38.200 hoping that we're

00:58:38.880 trying to do

00:58:39.320 and this is what

00:58:39.840 psychologists do

00:58:40.940 this is what

00:58:41.760 educators do

00:58:42.600 if they're worth

00:58:43.180 their salt

00:58:43.820 is they try to

00:58:44.980 make more resilient

00:58:45.980 wiser

00:58:47.160 more informed

00:58:49.020 more put together

00:58:50.120 more confident

00:58:51.140 stronger

00:58:52.020 more intelligent

00:58:53.420 more courageous

00:58:55.440 individuals

00:58:56.260 right

00:58:56.900 then you think

00:58:57.740 well what does

00:58:58.640 that mean exactly

00:58:59.560 it's like

00:59:00.060 okay so

00:59:00.720 here's another

00:59:02.040 gloss on it

00:59:03.800 in some sense

00:59:04.420 so

00:59:05.180 you know

00:59:07.800 12 rules for life

00:59:08.880 and maps of meaning

00:59:09.860 for that matter

00:59:10.480 are in some ways

00:59:11.340 very harsh books

00:59:12.400 I wouldn't say

00:59:13.680 like they have a

00:59:14.400 deep pessimism

00:59:15.420 about them

00:59:16.040 now

00:59:16.800 Carl Jung

00:59:17.780 said something

00:59:18.520 once that

00:59:19.180 really stuck

00:59:20.000 in my mind

00:59:20.580 in his writings

00:59:21.300 on alchemy

00:59:21.840 which I studied

00:59:22.520 for about two years

00:59:23.600 three years

00:59:24.200 maybe something

00:59:24.740 like that

00:59:25.120 very difficult

00:59:25.860 writings

00:59:26.240 so difficult

00:59:27.160 I can't really

00:59:27.800 even lecture

00:59:28.300 about them

00:59:28.740 because I

00:59:29.540 barely understand

00:59:30.680 them well enough

00:59:31.300 to understand

00:59:31.960 what I wrote

00:59:32.660 when I wrote

00:59:33.240 about them

00:59:33.740 it really pushed

00:59:34.840 me to the limits

00:59:35.460 of my ability

00:59:36.820 so I can't do it

00:59:37.740 free form

00:59:38.440 but one of the

00:59:39.680 things he identified

00:59:40.660 was the central

00:59:41.680 dictum of alchemy

00:59:42.680 which was this

00:59:43.400 weird mishmash

00:59:44.580 of conceptions

00:59:45.800 out of which

00:59:46.320 science emerged

00:59:47.300 so a profound

00:59:48.500 a profound

00:59:49.600 it was

00:59:49.940 for Jung

00:59:50.740 alchemy was

00:59:51.500 the dream

00:59:52.420 of material

00:59:53.260 transformation

00:59:53.900 out of which

00:59:54.700 science emerged

00:59:55.520 it's like

00:59:56.180 we dreamed

00:59:57.300 as a species

00:59:58.480 we dreamed

00:59:59.600 that the

01:00:00.880 investigation

01:00:01.460 of the material

01:00:02.320 world

01:00:02.640 could free us

01:00:03.560 from death

01:00:04.240 and privation

01:00:05.240 that was the

01:00:06.320 dream first

01:00:07.100 that's the idea

01:00:07.700 of the philosopher

01:00:08.320 stone

01:00:08.760 the material

01:00:09.300 substance

01:00:09.700 that would

01:00:10.140 confer upon

01:00:10.780 you

01:00:11.000 wealth

01:00:11.740 and health

01:00:12.480 and infinite

01:00:13.560 life

01:00:13.980 it's like

01:00:14.480 we had an idea

01:00:15.360 that that could

01:00:15.960 be found

01:00:16.500 in the analysis

01:00:17.800 of the material

01:00:18.640 world

01:00:19.080 and it was

01:00:19.960 that dream

01:00:20.460 which lasted

01:00:21.000 about a thousand

01:00:21.560 years

01:00:21.860 that gave us

01:00:22.480 the motivational

01:00:23.140 impetus

01:00:23.540 to develop

01:00:24.080 science

01:00:24.620 so that's

01:00:25.880 the Jungian

01:00:26.240 idea

01:00:26.580 and it's

01:00:26.900 a staggeringly

01:00:27.720 brilliant idea

01:00:28.560 and very rarely

01:00:29.340 understood

01:00:29.840 one of the

01:00:31.500 there's an

01:00:31.840 alchemical dictum

01:00:32.860 which is a

01:00:33.320 very interesting

01:00:33.840 one

01:00:34.100 it's

01:00:34.340 interquilinus

01:00:35.360 infinitur

01:00:36.040 which

01:00:36.360 which is a

01:00:37.360 latin phrase

01:00:37.860 that means

01:00:38.400 that which

01:00:39.500 you most

01:00:40.060 want

01:00:40.440 will be

01:00:40.880 found

01:00:41.200 where you

01:00:41.620 least

01:00:42.080 want

01:00:42.440 to look

01:00:43.020 it's like

01:00:44.360 you want

01:00:45.520 this

01:00:45.900 it's such

01:00:46.360 it's so

01:00:46.680 useful

01:00:47.060 to know

01:00:47.480 that

01:00:47.660 you think

01:00:47.900 well

01:00:48.080 what's

01:00:49.060 the barrier

01:00:49.480 to enlightenment

01:00:50.200 hypothetically

01:00:51.240 people can

01:00:51.820 become enlightened

01:00:52.540 well that's

01:00:53.460 the theory

01:00:53.940 because

01:00:54.220 we have

01:00:54.820 records

01:00:56.040 of enlightened

01:00:56.680 people

01:00:57.160 and you know

01:00:57.860 you among

01:00:58.560 your compatriots

01:00:59.620 you know

01:01:00.300 that some

01:01:00.760 of them

01:01:01.160 seem more

01:01:01.760 enlightened

01:01:02.200 than others

01:01:02.780 and maybe

01:01:03.180 you have

01:01:03.500 days

01:01:03.780 where you're

01:01:04.140 a little

01:01:04.340 more

01:01:04.540 enlightened

01:01:04.860 than you

01:01:05.200 are

01:01:05.360 other

01:01:05.580 days

01:01:05.920 you know

01:01:06.500 so you

01:01:06.820 can see

01:01:07.140 that there's

01:01:07.500 a continua

01:01:08.100 you might

01:01:08.860 think

01:01:09.080 well if

01:01:09.360 you could

01:01:09.660 be

01:01:09.860 enlightened

01:01:10.260 why

01:01:10.700 wouldn't

01:01:11.180 you be

01:01:11.600 it seems

01:01:12.460 to be

01:01:13.660 to be

01:01:14.440 what

01:01:15.100 enveloped

01:01:16.240 in light

01:01:16.720 seems to be

01:01:17.400 better than

01:01:17.860 being shrouded

01:01:18.680 in darkness

01:01:19.280 and so

01:01:19.800 why wouldn't

01:01:20.720 you choose

01:01:21.240 to be enveloped

01:01:22.040 in light

01:01:22.540 and the answer

01:01:23.500 might be

01:01:24.020 because what

01:01:25.500 you most need

01:01:26.180 will be found

01:01:26.780 where you least

01:01:27.400 want to look

01:01:28.120 and that's a

01:01:29.700 great thing

01:01:30.120 and I do believe

01:01:30.940 that it's true

01:01:31.520 I really do

01:01:32.400 believe it's true

01:01:33.120 partly because

01:01:33.760 you've already

01:01:34.060 looked where

01:01:34.500 you wanted

01:01:34.920 to look

01:01:35.360 and you're

01:01:35.980 not everything

01:01:36.440 you could be

01:01:37.140 so obviously

01:01:38.260 you should go

01:01:38.900 look at where

01:01:39.460 you didn't

01:01:39.900 look

01:01:40.280 and there's

01:01:41.080 some dark

01:01:41.500 places where

01:01:42.140 you didn't

01:01:42.560 look

01:01:42.840 that's for

01:01:43.720 sure

01:01:44.020 and so

01:01:45.720 anyways

01:01:46.420 in Maps of

01:01:49.800 Meaning and

01:01:50.200 in Twelve Rules

01:01:50.780 for Life

01:01:51.160 the books are

01:01:51.860 very dark

01:01:52.420 and I think

01:01:54.460 they're dark

01:01:54.860 partly because

01:01:56.100 when I wrote

01:01:57.400 the first book

01:01:58.060 in particular

01:01:58.460 I was looking

01:01:59.040 at the darkest

01:01:59.580 things I could

01:02:00.200 look at

01:02:00.620 and so what

01:02:01.700 I was trying

01:02:02.160 to do

01:02:02.600 was I'll tell

01:02:03.640 you a little

01:02:03.940 story

01:02:04.340 and so

01:02:06.020 it's a story

01:02:06.880 that I read

01:02:07.360 about something

01:02:07.880 that happened

01:02:08.340 in Auschwitz

01:02:08.940 which is a

01:02:10.000 pretty dark

01:02:10.420 place

01:02:10.820 and so imagine

01:02:11.320 that you go

01:02:11.700 to the darkest

01:02:12.180 place

01:02:12.560 let's call

01:02:13.860 that Auschwitz

01:02:14.540 and then you

01:02:15.880 look for the

01:02:16.300 darkest thing

01:02:17.260 that happened

01:02:17.940 there

01:02:18.300 and then you

01:02:19.160 might think

01:02:19.480 well that's

01:02:19.880 the darkest

01:02:20.380 place

01:02:20.900 and so

01:02:21.280 one of the

01:02:21.980 darkest things

01:02:22.640 that happened

01:02:23.160 at Auschwitz

01:02:23.800 and perhaps

01:02:25.680 not the darkest

01:02:26.300 but it doesn't

01:02:26.840 matter

01:02:27.100 it's a good

01:02:28.020 exemplar

01:02:28.700 of the category

01:02:29.620 of terrible

01:02:30.300 things

01:02:30.740 so you know

01:02:31.680 the Nazis

01:02:32.840 would pack

01:02:33.440 all the people

01:02:34.540 they were putting

01:02:35.060 in concentration

01:02:35.740 camps

01:02:36.140 into cattle cars

01:02:37.500 essentially

01:02:38.000 railway cars

01:02:39.040 summer

01:02:39.620 winter

01:02:39.980 didn't matter

01:02:40.480 they packed

01:02:40.920 the cars

01:02:41.340 right full

01:02:41.820 so people

01:02:42.540 would be

01:02:42.820 standing there

01:02:43.280 like this

01:02:43.680 and they'd be

01:02:44.120 transported for hours

01:02:45.400 and lots of them

01:02:45.940 just died

01:02:46.480 in the cars

01:02:47.160 the old people

01:02:48.060 died

01:02:48.400 the kids

01:02:49.060 died

01:02:49.480 they died

01:02:50.160 because the ones

01:02:50.800 on the outside

01:02:51.460 of the cattle

01:02:52.080 cars froze to

01:02:53.100 death

01:02:53.400 right

01:02:54.280 and they died

01:02:54.800 in the summer

01:02:55.260 in the middle

01:02:56.060 because the people

01:02:56.740 in the middle

01:02:57.040 got so hot

01:02:57.580 they just died

01:02:58.340 but that was okay

01:02:59.320 because they're all

01:03:00.240 being shipped

01:03:00.680 to die anyway

01:03:01.780 so that was just

01:03:02.680 more or less

01:03:03.380 convenient

01:03:04.820 plus it was

01:03:05.760 terrible and brutal

01:03:07.260 and caused a lot

01:03:08.060 of suffering

01:03:08.580 so that was all

01:03:09.740 the better

01:03:10.140 and so then

01:03:11.540 you took these people

01:03:12.800 and they were pretty

01:03:13.400 much as hurt

01:03:14.600 as you could make

01:03:15.600 a person

01:03:16.060 you'd think

01:03:16.660 because they'd

01:03:17.580 been separated

01:03:18.060 from their country

01:03:18.720 and they'd been

01:03:19.200 separated from

01:03:19.780 their family

01:03:20.260 then they'd been

01:03:21.220 treated with

01:03:21.800 absolute brutality

01:03:22.720 and then maybe

01:03:23.340 they had family

01:03:23.980 members die

01:03:24.520 along the way

01:03:25.060 and they were

01:03:25.740 terrorized

01:03:26.380 as much as

01:03:27.040 you could be

01:03:27.460 terrorized

01:03:28.000 and then you

01:03:28.620 got them

01:03:28.980 to the camp

01:03:29.680 right

01:03:30.940 and then

01:03:31.440 the guards

01:03:32.600 used to play

01:03:33.180 a game

01:03:33.540 with them

01:03:34.100 because everything

01:03:35.140 that had happened

01:03:35.720 wasn't enough

01:03:36.480 makes you think

01:03:38.160 well what would

01:03:38.680 be enough

01:03:39.240 and so one of

01:03:40.460 the things

01:03:40.860 that the camp

01:03:41.520 guards used

01:03:42.000 to do

01:03:42.260 so these were

01:03:42.940 big camps

01:03:43.600 right

01:03:43.800 they weren't

01:03:44.180 camps

01:03:44.700 they weren't

01:03:45.120 like

01:03:45.320 they weren't

01:03:45.800 the size of

01:03:46.320 this room

01:03:46.900 they were

01:03:47.440 cities

01:03:47.860 of like

01:03:48.220 25,000

01:03:48.960 people

01:03:49.340 they were

01:03:49.800 big places

01:03:50.560 and so they

01:03:51.880 would have

01:03:52.220 the prisoners

01:03:52.740 once they

01:03:53.500 got off

01:03:53.880 the cattle

01:03:54.360 cars

01:03:54.680 and you know

01:03:56.420 they'd dispense

01:03:57.220 with a bunch

01:03:57.640 of them

01:03:57.860 who were

01:03:58.120 near death

01:03:58.640 anyways

01:03:58.980 and they

01:03:59.380 were the

01:03:59.580 ones

01:03:59.740 that would

01:03:59.940 be gassed

01:04:00.380 right away

01:04:00.820 they would

01:04:02.240 they would

01:04:02.260 have

01:04:02.540 the people

01:04:03.040 who could

01:04:03.420 still

01:04:03.840 stumble

01:04:04.740 forward

01:04:05.360 let's

01:04:05.720 say

01:04:05.900 pick up

01:04:06.660 hundred

01:04:07.020 pound

01:04:07.440 sacks

01:04:07.880 of salt

01:04:08.600 and then

01:04:10.640 carry them

01:04:11.120 across the

01:04:11.640 compound

01:04:12.160 and you

01:04:13.160 think

01:04:13.280 well that's

01:04:13.560 not so

01:04:13.880 bad

01:04:14.100 maybe

01:04:14.400 you needed

01:04:15.900 to move

01:04:16.360 the salt

01:04:17.000 maybe there's

01:04:18.520 some purpose

01:04:19.000 to it

01:04:19.520 you know

01:04:20.840 work will

01:04:21.680 make you

01:04:22.140 free

01:04:22.520 that was

01:04:23.420 the motto

01:04:23.980 on the

01:04:24.400 outside of

01:04:25.000 the entrance

01:04:26.200 right

01:04:27.100 carved in

01:04:28.740 in

01:04:29.260 in

01:04:30.060 in steel

01:04:31.200 work will

01:04:34.340 set you

01:04:34.720 free

01:04:35.040 it was a

01:04:35.840 little joke

01:04:36.320 because there

01:04:37.620 were people

01:04:38.040 in the

01:04:38.720 Nazis

01:04:39.020 would tell

01:04:39.420 jokes about

01:04:40.060 the concentration

01:04:40.760 camps

01:04:41.120 right

01:04:41.340 work will

01:04:42.140 make you

01:04:42.520 free

01:04:42.820 the freedom

01:04:43.460 was death

01:04:44.120 and it

01:04:44.800 wasn't work

01:04:45.320 either

01:04:45.540 it was a

01:04:45.940 parody of

01:04:46.440 work

01:04:46.700 and so

01:04:47.680 the evil

01:04:49.080 in Auschwitz

01:04:49.680 was a

01:04:50.220 parody of

01:04:50.780 work that

01:04:51.280 killed you

01:04:51.920 which was the

01:04:53.120 worst thing

01:04:53.480 you could do

01:04:53.840 to a human

01:04:54.300 being because

01:04:54.680 work should

01:04:55.120 ennoble you

01:04:55.780 right

01:04:56.000 because

01:04:56.280 perhaps

01:04:56.800 you're

01:04:57.020 working

01:04:57.320 towards

01:04:57.720 the

01:04:57.900 betterment

01:04:58.340 of

01:04:58.480 being

01:04:58.840 you can

01:04:59.320 turn

01:04:59.520 that

01:05:00.040 into

01:05:00.260 a

01:05:00.440 parody

01:05:00.740 of

01:05:00.960 work

01:05:01.200 that's

01:05:01.700 only

01:05:01.980 devoted

01:05:02.320 towards

01:05:02.740 your

01:05:02.900 death

01:05:03.220 so the

01:05:03.880 work

01:05:04.140 actually

01:05:04.460 kills

01:05:04.940 you

01:05:05.120 instead

01:05:05.380 of

01:05:05.560 helping

01:05:05.820 you

01:05:06.020 survive

01:05:06.420 and that's

01:05:07.020 what that

01:05:07.300 little sign

01:05:07.820 meant

01:05:08.080 and someone

01:05:08.680 thought

01:05:08.940 that was

01:05:09.260 a joke

01:05:09.740 and one

01:05:10.600 of the

01:05:10.780 things

01:05:10.960 you might

01:05:11.240 ask

01:05:11.460 yourself

01:05:11.760 is

01:05:11.940 just

01:05:12.520 exactly

01:05:13.240 what

01:05:13.620 is it

01:05:13.960 that

01:05:14.160 thought

01:05:14.460 that

01:05:14.720 was

01:05:14.920 a

01:05:15.160 joke

01:05:15.520 and that's

01:05:17.780 bloody well

01:05:18.400 worth

01:05:18.660 thinking about

01:05:19.160 I can

01:05:19.420 tell you

01:05:19.760 that

01:05:20.060 and so

01:05:21.000 anyways

01:05:21.780 the

01:05:22.100 guards

01:05:23.400 would get

01:05:23.820 the

01:05:24.380 inmates

01:05:24.800 to

01:05:25.060 pick up

01:05:25.860 the

01:05:26.000 hundred

01:05:26.200 pound

01:05:26.500 sacks

01:05:27.120 of salt

01:05:27.600 and carry

01:05:28.520 and that's

01:05:28.880 a lot

01:05:29.260 the hundred

01:05:29.680 pounds

01:05:30.100 in case

01:05:30.980 you hadn't

01:05:31.440 thought that

01:05:32.040 through

01:05:32.320 and you'd

01:05:34.300 have to

01:05:34.600 carry it

01:05:34.960 to the

01:05:35.360 other side

01:05:35.740 of the

01:05:35.920 compound

01:05:36.340 and back

01:05:38.620 and that's

01:05:40.520 the thing

01:05:40.900 that was

01:05:41.280 the thing

01:05:41.600 that got

01:05:42.020 me

01:05:42.260 it wasn't

01:05:43.260 the

01:05:43.540 cattle car

01:05:44.680 bad as

01:05:45.780 that was

01:05:46.120 it wasn't

01:05:46.460 the camp

01:05:47.020 bad as

01:05:47.500 that was

01:05:48.000 it wasn't

01:05:48.720 even carrying

01:05:49.220 the damn

01:05:49.600 salt

01:05:49.960 across the

01:05:50.600 camp

01:05:50.920 it was

01:05:51.980 carrying

01:05:52.280 it

01:05:52.400 across

01:05:52.760 and

01:05:52.960 back

01:05:53.500 and it

01:05:55.220 wasn't

01:05:55.540 even the

01:05:55.920 fact

01:05:56.160 that the

01:05:56.480 inmates

01:05:56.780 had to

01:05:57.220 do

01:05:57.400 that

01:05:57.720 it was

01:05:58.400 the fact

01:05:58.740 that someone

01:05:59.300 wanted

01:05:59.880 them to

01:06:00.400 do

01:06:00.580 that

01:06:00.940 it's

01:06:02.340 like

01:06:02.460 that's

01:06:02.800 as dark

01:06:03.280 as it

01:06:03.620 gets

01:06:04.000 to want

01:06:05.300 that

01:06:05.680 and then

01:06:06.480 I thought

01:06:06.940 you know

01:06:07.780 I had

01:06:10.140 this client

01:06:10.680 once who

01:06:11.200 was extraordinarily

01:06:11.920 naive

01:06:12.380 and she

01:06:12.960 had been

01:06:13.640 knocked

01:06:14.000 into a

01:06:14.560 state

01:06:14.820 of

01:06:15.180 almost

01:06:17.280 like

01:06:17.540 epilepsy

01:06:18.040 she had

01:06:19.000 seizures

01:06:19.420 every night

01:06:19.960 for three

01:06:20.680 hours a

01:06:21.180 night

01:06:21.440 she was

01:06:22.820 conscious

01:06:23.240 but they

01:06:23.560 were like

01:06:23.840 seizures

01:06:24.200 and she

01:06:25.000 didn't sleep

01:06:25.520 and this

01:06:25.920 lasted for

01:06:26.380 like three

01:06:26.800 years

01:06:27.160 and when I

01:06:28.220 took it

01:06:28.500 apart it

01:06:28.880 turned out

01:06:29.240 that she

01:06:29.560 had been

01:06:29.880 assaulted by

01:06:30.520 her boyfriend

01:06:31.080 and not

01:06:33.900 successfully

01:06:34.480 because she

01:06:34.920 actually managed

01:06:35.560 to fight him

01:06:36.040 off but he

01:06:37.340 looked at her

01:06:38.000 with a look

01:06:38.620 of malevolence

01:06:39.600 he actually

01:06:40.580 wanted to hurt

01:06:41.220 her and she

01:06:41.580 was an

01:06:41.880 unbelievably

01:06:42.360 naive person

01:06:43.300 so naive

01:06:44.160 you can't

01:06:44.600 even you

01:06:45.020 wouldn't even

01:06:45.380 believe it

01:06:45.960 if I could

01:06:46.620 outline how

01:06:47.100 naive she

01:06:47.640 was

01:06:47.820 her parents

01:06:48.520 had actually

01:06:49.180 taught her

01:06:49.800 when she

01:06:50.100 was a kid

01:06:50.540 that adults

01:06:51.100 were angels

01:06:51.800 literally that's

01:06:53.120 what they

01:06:53.320 taught her

01:06:53.800 and she

01:06:54.980 believed that

01:06:55.640 even though

01:06:55.960 when I saw

01:06:56.760 her she was

01:06:57.060 like a 28

01:06:57.640 year old woman

01:06:58.220 and had been

01:06:58.640 to university

01:06:59.260 I thought

01:06:59.620 didn't you

01:07:00.540 read any

01:07:00.960 history

01:07:01.400 it's like

01:07:02.180 well yeah

01:07:02.580 but I just

01:07:03.100 I put it in

01:07:04.280 a compartment

01:07:04.720 and I didn't

01:07:05.200 really think

01:07:05.600 about it

01:07:06.080 well she

01:07:06.740 so one of

01:07:08.560 the things I

01:07:08.960 did with her

01:07:09.360 to kind of

01:07:09.780 break her out

01:07:10.380 of her

01:07:10.580 naivety

01:07:11.080 was to

01:07:11.600 I had to

01:07:12.300 read this book

01:07:12.860 called

01:07:13.120 ordinary men

01:07:13.800 and

01:07:14.000 that's a

01:07:15.880 hell of

01:07:16.120 a book

01:07:16.440 man

01:07:16.740 so it's

01:07:17.540 a story

01:07:17.940 about how

01:07:18.380 a bunch

01:07:18.680 of policemen

01:07:19.260 from Germany

01:07:20.380 moved into

01:07:21.000 Poland

01:07:21.320 during World

01:07:22.020 War II

01:07:22.440 and they

01:07:22.880 were just

01:07:23.100 ordinary

01:07:23.420 policemen

01:07:24.000 you know

01:07:24.300 bourgeois

01:07:24.700 middle class

01:07:25.320 guys

01:07:25.680 who had

01:07:26.300 been

01:07:26.460 socialized

01:07:27.060 before the

01:07:27.540 rise of

01:07:27.900 the Nazis

01:07:28.400 by the way

01:07:28.920 and it

01:07:29.760 detailed

01:07:30.220 their

01:07:30.420 transformation

01:07:30.940 from

01:07:31.460 ordinary

01:07:32.000 you know

01:07:32.640 middle class

01:07:33.580 husbands

01:07:34.060 and fathers

01:07:34.940 into people

01:07:36.020 who were

01:07:36.260 taking naked

01:07:36.860 pregnant women

01:07:37.440 out into

01:07:37.820 the middle

01:07:38.080 of fields

01:07:38.400 and shooting

01:07:38.800 them in

01:07:39.060 the back

01:07:39.320 of the head

01:07:39.720 and you

01:07:40.400 don't get

01:07:40.820 from one

01:07:41.420 of those

01:07:41.780 places

01:07:42.140 to the other

01:07:42.840 without a

01:07:43.620 very lengthy

01:07:44.300 and painful

01:07:44.940 transformation

01:07:45.540 it was

01:07:46.300 hell for

01:07:46.760 these men

01:07:47.260 you know

01:07:47.740 they were

01:07:48.020 physically

01:07:48.420 ill

01:07:48.800 they had

01:07:49.620 nightmares

01:07:50.180 like

01:07:50.580 you just

01:07:51.500 think

01:07:51.720 to read

01:07:52.580 that properly

01:07:53.240 you have

01:07:53.560 to read

01:07:53.940 that as

01:07:54.260 if it's

01:07:54.600 happening

01:07:54.900 to you

01:07:55.380 and you're

01:07:56.060 not the

01:07:56.340 person

01:07:56.560 who's being

01:07:56.920 hauled out

01:07:57.300 into the

01:07:57.620 field

01:07:57.820 by the way

01:07:58.320 you're

01:07:59.020 the person

01:07:59.380 who's got

01:07:59.740 the pistol

01:08:00.220 and the

01:08:01.040 problem

01:08:01.260 is you

01:08:01.680 are that

01:08:02.120 person

01:08:02.540 that's

01:08:03.280 the problem

01:08:03.840 and that's

01:08:04.740 the proper

01:08:05.100 way to read

01:08:05.600 history

01:08:06.060 it's like

01:08:06.820 well you can

01:08:07.480 read it as

01:08:07.900 a victim

01:08:08.260 you can read

01:08:08.820 it as a

01:08:09.140 bystander

01:08:09.740 which is

01:08:12.840 but it's

01:08:13.880 a lot

01:08:14.180 more

01:08:14.380 interesting

01:08:14.800 to read

01:08:15.220 it as

01:08:15.480 a perpetrator

01:08:16.120 and it's

01:08:16.900 a lot

01:08:17.180 more

01:08:17.380 revealing

01:08:17.820 and so

01:08:19.140 when I was

01:08:20.220 reading about

01:08:20.720 these terrible

01:08:21.240 things

01:08:21.680 I was also

01:08:22.540 trying to

01:08:23.000 imagine

01:08:23.580 what I

01:08:24.400 would have

01:08:24.900 to be

01:08:25.240 like

01:08:25.540 to actually

01:08:26.380 do that

01:08:27.240 and that's

01:08:28.800 a very

01:08:29.140 that's a

01:08:30.680 very hard

01:08:31.220 thing to do

01:08:31.920 to imagine

01:08:32.580 that but

01:08:32.960 the thing

01:08:33.320 is you

01:08:34.060 can imagine

01:08:35.040 it

01:08:35.300 that's the

01:08:36.560 thing

01:08:36.860 and imagining

01:08:38.320 it that

01:08:39.080 turns on the

01:08:40.380 lights like

01:08:41.040 you wouldn't

01:08:41.520 believe

01:08:41.940 it starts

01:08:42.940 to think

01:08:43.280 oh so

01:08:43.580 that's

01:08:43.880 what I'm

01:08:44.180 like

01:08:44.360 I have

01:08:44.700 that kind

01:08:45.200 of capacity

01:08:45.840 on that

01:08:46.400 terrible

01:08:47.200 end of the

01:08:47.920 continuum

01:08:48.300 I have

01:08:49.260 that capacity

01:08:50.140 and if you

01:08:50.840 don't think

01:08:51.200 that you have

01:08:51.560 that capacity

01:08:52.100 well maybe

01:08:52.560 you don't

01:08:53.020 like it

01:08:53.660 isn't obvious

01:08:54.220 to me

01:08:54.600 that everyone

01:08:55.220 has that

01:08:55.740 capacity

01:08:56.140 I would

01:08:56.940 suspect

01:08:57.620 that they

01:08:58.360 do

01:08:58.700 because one

01:08:59.720 of the

01:08:59.960 things that

01:09:00.400 characterized

01:09:00.900 Nazi

01:09:01.260 Germany

01:09:01.620 and the

01:09:02.580 horrors of

01:09:03.580 the Soviet

01:09:04.100 era for

01:09:05.000 example

01:09:05.320 is that even

01:09:05.920 the people

01:09:06.500 who didn't

01:09:07.000 participate

01:09:07.580 directly

01:09:08.540 shut the

01:09:09.820 hell up

01:09:10.440 when they

01:09:11.040 should have

01:09:11.440 said something

01:09:12.260 and it

01:09:13.340 isn't clear

01:09:13.840 to me

01:09:14.200 that that

01:09:15.020 complicit

01:09:16.120 going along

01:09:17.520 with the

01:09:18.040 horror is

01:09:19.060 actually less

01:09:19.740 of a sin

01:09:20.380 than actually

01:09:21.020 perpetrating the

01:09:21.920 acts

01:09:22.300 now you know

01:09:22.860 we could argue

01:09:23.420 about that

01:09:23.940 and I might

01:09:24.600 be wrong

01:09:25.060 but there are

01:09:26.780 variants of

01:09:27.540 evil you know

01:09:28.300 one might be

01:09:28.920 more extreme

01:09:29.440 than the other

01:09:29.860 but both of

01:09:30.460 them are on

01:09:30.800 the pretty

01:09:31.120 dismal side

01:09:31.860 of the

01:09:32.160 spectrum

01:09:32.540 so anyways

01:09:33.680 you know

01:09:34.020 I was

01:09:34.440 walking through

01:09:36.220 this trying

01:09:36.740 to imagine

01:09:37.360 okay so

01:09:38.620 I'm that

01:09:39.060 guard

01:09:39.560 right

01:09:41.540 and I'm

01:09:42.280 assigning

01:09:42.680 that task

01:09:43.620 and I'm

01:09:44.560 enjoying

01:09:45.020 it

01:09:45.440 so just

01:09:47.600 exactly

01:09:48.280 what state

01:09:48.880 of mind

01:09:49.220 am I

01:09:49.580 in

01:09:49.860 and that

01:09:51.120 state of

01:09:51.540 mind

01:09:51.720 for me

01:09:52.100 that's

01:09:52.420 the state

01:09:52.740 of mind

01:09:53.080 that

01:09:53.300 characterizes

01:09:54.500 people who

01:09:56.100 occupy hell

01:09:57.040 and who

01:09:58.160 not only

01:09:58.640 occupy it

01:09:59.280 but are

01:09:59.520 doing everything

01:10:00.200 they possibly

01:10:01.080 can to bring

01:10:01.760 it about

01:10:02.100 for themselves

01:10:02.640 and for

01:10:03.100 everyone else

01:10:03.740 and I

01:10:04.260 would say

01:10:04.660 the act

01:10:06.400 of producing

01:10:07.200 that is a

01:10:07.940 deeper hell

01:10:08.720 than the hell

01:10:09.520 that's being

01:10:10.160 produced by the

01:10:11.120 actions

01:10:11.560 you know

01:10:12.720 what I mean

01:10:13.480 it's like

01:10:13.860 it's generating

01:10:15.360 evil is even

01:10:16.560 worse than the

01:10:17.500 evil that's

01:10:18.160 generated

01:10:18.660 it's the act

01:10:19.520 that's worse

01:10:20.100 it's the moral

01:10:20.960 it's the immorality

01:10:23.640 that's the worst

01:10:24.780 and so that was

01:10:26.220 very useful to me

01:10:27.060 and you know

01:10:27.400 Solzhenitsyn said

01:10:28.340 something very

01:10:28.900 interesting about

01:10:29.700 the Nazi era

01:10:32.940 you know

01:10:33.500 after the

01:10:34.180 after World War

01:10:35.420 II

01:10:35.640 the Nuremberg

01:10:37.140 trials took

01:10:37.660 place

01:10:38.040 right

01:10:38.320 and Solzhenitsyn

01:10:39.500 who wrote

01:10:40.200 the Gulag

01:10:40.560 Archipelago

01:10:41.120 by the way

01:10:41.960 which documented

01:10:43.320 all the

01:10:43.680 catastrophes

01:10:44.320 of the Soviet

01:10:44.840 Union

01:10:45.200 well not all

01:10:45.840 of them

01:10:46.100 but a

01:10:47.020 random

01:10:47.320 subset

01:10:47.780 of them

01:10:48.160 let's say

01:10:48.620 he thought

01:10:50.840 the Nuremberg

01:10:51.400 trials were

01:10:51.860 the most

01:10:52.180 important event

01:10:52.720 of the

01:10:52.920 20th century

01:10:53.580 and the

01:10:54.420 reason that

01:10:54.940 he believed

01:10:55.380 that

01:10:55.540 I think

01:10:55.780 he was

01:10:56.040 right

01:10:56.280 the reason

01:10:56.980 he believed

01:10:57.460 that was

01:10:57.840 because the

01:10:58.280 Nuremberg

01:10:58.680 trials

01:10:58.980 established

01:10:59.500 that there

01:11:00.400 were some

01:11:00.840 things that

01:11:01.300 were so

01:11:01.640 horrible

01:11:01.960 that you

01:11:02.300 didn't get

01:11:02.660 to do

01:11:02.940 no matter

01:11:03.300 who you

01:11:03.740 were

01:11:03.960 and no

01:11:04.280 matter

01:11:04.420 what your

01:11:04.780 excuse

01:11:05.140 was

01:11:05.460 so you

01:11:06.100 couldn't

01:11:06.340 say

01:11:06.540 well I

01:11:07.300 was just

01:11:07.860 following

01:11:08.240 orders

01:11:08.700 or that's

01:11:09.480 what my

01:11:09.900 culture

01:11:10.340 thought

01:11:10.920 it was like

01:11:11.780 the Nuremberg

01:11:12.300 trial said

01:11:12.820 no you have

01:11:14.640 a moral

01:11:15.080 culpability

01:11:15.800 as an

01:11:16.260 individual

01:11:16.660 that you

01:11:17.340 cannot

01:11:17.880 sidestep

01:11:19.720 by making

01:11:21.400 reference to

01:11:22.260 the norms

01:11:22.740 of your

01:11:23.100 culture

01:11:23.520 so that's

01:11:24.900 like a

01:11:25.180 universal

01:11:25.520 ethic

01:11:25.980 there are

01:11:26.520 there are

01:11:26.940 absolute

01:11:27.920 there are

01:11:28.780 acts of

01:11:29.320 absolute evil

01:11:30.360 that's

01:11:30.940 what the

01:11:31.180 Nuremberg

01:11:31.560 trials

01:11:31.820 established

01:11:32.320 now you

01:11:32.960 might not

01:11:33.280 agree with

01:11:33.760 that

01:11:34.040 but then

01:11:35.220 you have

01:11:35.700 to think

01:11:36.020 about what

01:11:36.380 it means

01:11:36.720 to not

01:11:37.100 agree with

01:11:37.560 that

01:11:37.800 it means

01:11:39.500 you can't

01:11:40.200 make the

01:11:40.660 case that

01:11:41.340 what the

01:11:41.760 Auschwitz

01:11:42.160 camp guard

01:11:42.740 did in the

01:11:43.200 situation that

01:11:43.800 I described

01:11:44.340 was wrong

01:11:45.000 and that's

01:11:46.500 fine if you

01:11:47.060 want to

01:11:47.340 make that

01:11:49.620 supposition

01:11:50.280 and live in

01:11:51.260 a world

01:11:51.720 where that

01:11:52.200 supposition

01:11:52.640 is true

01:11:53.200 go have

01:11:54.640 your fun

01:11:56.020 but you'll

01:11:57.700 pay a

01:11:57.980 price for

01:11:58.500 it

01:11:58.660 now you'll

01:11:59.100 pay a

01:11:59.320 price for

01:11:59.660 the other

01:11:59.940 supposition

01:12:00.400 too but

01:12:00.840 I would

01:12:01.100 say it's

01:12:01.440 a better

01:12:01.700 price

01:12:02.160 so why

01:12:04.480 was that

01:12:04.920 useful to

01:12:05.600 me

01:12:05.840 well it

01:12:07.240 gave me

01:12:07.680 a foundation

01:12:09.340 you know

01:12:10.660 maybe you're

01:12:11.500 trying to

01:12:11.820 figure out

01:12:12.240 if there's

01:12:12.920 something good

01:12:13.440 in life

01:12:13.920 and that's

01:12:15.120 the question

01:12:15.560 that bothers

01:12:16.020 everyone

01:12:16.380 is there

01:12:16.700 actually

01:12:17.000 something good

01:12:17.620 in life

01:12:18.120 you know

01:12:18.720 and it

01:12:18.980 especially

01:12:19.380 bothers you

01:12:19.920 when there

01:12:20.340 doesn't seem

01:12:20.840 to be that

01:12:21.360 much good

01:12:21.900 in your

01:12:22.220 life

01:12:22.580 and maybe

01:12:23.120 it's because

01:12:23.540 of your

01:12:23.780 own mistakes

01:12:24.400 but maybe

01:12:25.100 it's because

01:12:25.500 you're just

01:12:25.860 getting laid

01:12:26.600 low by

01:12:27.120 chance

01:12:27.620 and misfortune

01:12:28.880 because that

01:12:29.280 happens to

01:12:29.780 people

01:12:30.040 you think

01:12:30.340 this is a

01:12:31.140 veil of

01:12:31.620 tears

01:12:31.920 that should

01:12:32.360 have never

01:12:32.760 been

01:12:33.200 you know

01:12:33.780 and everyone

01:12:35.060 in their

01:12:35.420 life at some

01:12:35.940 point is so

01:12:36.440 desperate that

01:12:36.980 that's what

01:12:37.340 they think

01:12:37.840 and maybe

01:12:39.100 it's the

01:12:39.500 case

01:12:39.820 it's like

01:12:40.480 is there

01:12:41.120 anything good

01:12:41.620 in this

01:12:41.960 life

01:12:42.260 it's like

01:12:42.740 well who

01:12:43.320 knows

01:12:43.680 man

01:12:44.000 that's not

01:12:45.220 an easy

01:12:45.660 nut to

01:12:46.660 crack

01:12:46.960 let's say

01:12:47.440 but I

01:12:48.580 discovered

01:12:48.980 that there

01:12:49.340 was something

01:12:49.800 that was

01:12:50.360 bad in

01:12:51.080 this life

01:12:51.660 and that's

01:12:53.940 something

01:12:54.320 right

01:12:54.840 because if

01:12:55.300 you can

01:12:55.540 establish

01:12:56.040 that there's

01:12:56.860 something

01:12:57.100 that's

01:12:57.400 evil

01:12:57.720 and I

01:12:59.440 think there

01:12:59.780 were endless

01:13:00.120 examples of

01:13:00.840 things in the

01:13:01.680 20th century

01:13:02.340 throughout the

01:13:03.960 course of human

01:13:04.500 history but

01:13:05.040 the 20th century

01:13:06.120 really brought

01:13:06.700 things up to

01:13:07.400 in a stark

01:13:09.280 manner I would

01:13:10.160 say because it

01:13:10.840 was the bloodiest

01:13:11.460 century that there

01:13:12.400 ever was

01:13:13.000 if you can

01:13:15.060 identify something

01:13:15.800 that you regard

01:13:16.860 as evil

01:13:17.660 well then you

01:13:19.500 all of a sudden

01:13:20.200 found good

01:13:20.880 because whatever

01:13:22.520 good is

01:13:23.020 is the opposite

01:13:23.680 of that

01:13:24.180 now you might

01:13:25.420 not know what

01:13:26.040 the opposite

01:13:26.480 of it is

01:13:26.960 like what's

01:13:27.460 the opposite

01:13:28.120 of what that

01:13:29.140 Auschwitz

01:13:29.540 camp guard

01:13:30.120 did when he

01:13:30.640 took someone

01:13:31.080 who was already

01:13:31.600 completely

01:13:32.040 deprived and

01:13:33.080 made them do

01:13:33.740 something pointless

01:13:34.760 to produce

01:13:36.420 excess suffering

01:13:37.640 on the way

01:13:38.260 to death

01:13:38.880 well I don't

01:13:39.960 know what the

01:13:40.380 opposite of that

01:13:41.060 is exactly

01:13:41.660 but I know

01:13:42.740 that that

01:13:43.840 exists and

01:13:44.540 that there

01:13:44.960 is its

01:13:45.900 opposite

01:13:46.460 and so all

01:13:47.980 of a sudden

01:13:48.360 well you have

01:13:48.900 a landscape

01:13:49.320 of evil

01:13:50.460 and good

01:13:50.920 and then you

01:13:52.200 have something

01:13:52.540 to work for

01:13:53.140 and so that

01:13:53.540 was Jung's

01:13:54.160 notion essentially

01:13:55.360 because Jung

01:13:55.820 was a very

01:13:56.240 deep guy

01:13:56.860 and when he

01:13:58.120 said that

01:13:59.320 which you

01:13:59.720 most need

01:14:00.200 will be found

01:14:00.760 where you

01:14:01.080 least want

01:14:01.500 to look

01:14:01.820 he meant

01:14:02.560 really where

01:14:03.680 you least

01:14:04.260 want to look

01:14:05.040 and so that

01:14:06.400 would be in

01:14:06.720 the darkest

01:14:07.140 possible place

01:14:08.080 the light

01:14:08.820 shines in

01:14:09.480 the darkest

01:14:09.880 possible place

01:14:10.720 I would say

01:14:11.340 you actually

01:14:11.760 already know

01:14:12.400 that because

01:14:13.400 here's something

01:14:13.960 you do that

01:14:14.600 you don't even

01:14:15.000 know that you

01:14:15.460 do and

01:14:16.300 most of you

01:14:16.880 do it

01:14:17.220 you have a

01:14:19.140 Christmas tree

01:14:19.680 right

01:14:21.240 you put a

01:14:21.960 Christmas tree

01:14:22.320 in your house

01:14:22.780 and you put

01:14:23.420 lights on the

01:14:23.880 tree

01:14:24.120 and when do

01:14:25.300 you do that

01:14:25.820 well you do

01:14:26.980 it at the

01:14:27.260 darkest time

01:14:27.760 of the year

01:14:28.240 because part

01:14:29.740 of the old

01:14:30.100 story is that

01:14:30.820 at the darkest

01:14:31.380 time of

01:14:31.820 at the darkest

01:14:32.780 time the

01:14:33.180 lights appear

01:14:33.800 and so that's

01:14:35.200 what you're

01:14:35.420 doing with

01:14:35.760 the Christmas

01:14:36.040 well what the

01:14:36.520 hell are you

01:14:36.840 doing with

01:14:37.140 the Christmas

01:14:37.480 tree

01:14:37.720 you tell me

01:14:38.420 well everyone

01:14:39.100 does it

01:14:39.680 it's like

01:14:40.320 yeah okay

01:14:41.360 that's not a

01:14:42.120 very deep

01:14:42.500 answer

01:14:42.940 you know

01:14:43.940 what's the

01:14:44.860 reason

01:14:45.340 where did that

01:14:46.100 come from

01:14:46.580 where does

01:14:48.400 that idea

01:14:48.860 have its roots

01:14:49.580 it has its

01:14:50.240 roots in

01:14:50.560 many places

01:14:51.280 it's a very

01:14:51.920 very complex

01:14:52.680 ancient idea

01:14:54.140 but part of it

01:14:55.380 is to act out

01:14:56.480 the proposition

01:14:57.080 that at the

01:14:57.640 darkest point

01:14:58.140 the light

01:14:58.480 reappears

01:14:59.020 and that we

01:14:59.860 should celebrate

01:15:00.460 that

01:15:00.860 and that we

01:15:01.860 should celebrate

01:15:02.400 that as if

01:15:03.500 it's the birth

01:15:04.360 of the

01:15:04.800 redeemer

01:15:05.340 that's what

01:15:06.420 you're doing

01:15:06.920 it's like

01:15:07.900 you don't even

01:15:08.300 know it

01:15:08.760 well it's time

01:15:09.860 to know it

01:15:10.460 that's the thing

01:15:11.720 it's time to

01:15:12.280 know it

01:15:12.760 because it's better

01:15:13.700 to know it

01:15:14.120 consciously

01:15:14.520 it's better

01:15:14.960 to take that

01:15:15.500 responsibility

01:15:16.100 on yourself

01:15:16.800 consciously

01:15:17.360 and what are

01:15:18.240 you trying to

01:15:18.660 do

01:15:18.900 you're trying

01:15:20.220 to turn

01:15:20.960 yourself into

01:15:21.640 the sort of

01:15:22.180 person who

01:15:23.140 can act

01:15:23.660 nobly and

01:15:24.340 properly in

01:15:24.920 the face of

01:15:25.400 the tragedy

01:15:25.900 and malevolence

01:15:26.520 of life

01:15:26.960 and you do

01:15:27.880 that

01:15:28.160 you do that

01:15:29.040 and this is

01:15:29.460 the other

01:15:30.040 thing that

01:15:30.540 I've been

01:15:31.240 trying to

01:15:31.620 make clear

01:15:32.240 and it's

01:15:32.900 partly a

01:15:33.340 consequence

01:15:33.720 of trying

01:15:34.160 to delineate

01:15:34.940 out what

01:15:35.380 the opposite

01:15:36.000 path was

01:15:36.860 from the

01:15:37.280 path that

01:15:37.780 led to

01:15:38.140 Auschwitz

01:15:38.600 let's say

01:15:39.140 it's like

01:15:40.000 that's a

01:15:40.720 path of

01:15:41.040 responsibility

01:15:41.700 and why

01:15:43.500 is that

01:15:44.040 well

01:15:44.360 life is

01:15:45.900 brutal

01:15:46.300 and it

01:15:46.960 is

01:15:47.160 tainted

01:15:47.780 by

01:15:48.000 malevolence

01:15:48.540 and that's

01:15:49.380 the essential

01:15:50.040 theme of

01:15:50.500 maps of

01:15:50.940 meaning and

01:15:51.320 twelve rules

01:15:51.800 for life

01:15:52.120 it's the

01:15:52.440 essential

01:15:52.840 reality

01:15:53.240 life is

01:15:53.880 suffering

01:15:54.420 right

01:15:55.520 it's an

01:15:55.820 essential

01:15:56.260 religious

01:15:56.680 dictum

01:15:57.080 it's the

01:15:57.420 prime

01:15:57.860 it's the

01:15:58.920 first

01:15:59.120 principle

01:15:59.480 of

01:15:59.660 buddhism

01:16:00.080 it's

01:16:01.160 obviously

01:16:01.740 encapsulated

01:16:03.160 as a

01:16:03.540 principle

01:16:03.860 in the

01:16:04.400 great

01:16:04.800 stories

01:16:05.160 of

01:16:05.360 judaism

01:16:05.800 and

01:16:06.080 well

01:16:06.980 in

01:16:07.220 christianity

01:16:07.840 well

01:16:08.140 the

01:16:08.740 crucifix

01:16:09.240 is the

01:16:09.520 central

01:16:09.800 symbol

01:16:10.220 so like

01:16:10.860 the notion

01:16:11.560 that

01:16:11.860 life is

01:16:13.060 suffering

01:16:13.460 is

01:16:13.720 an

01:16:14.300 axiomatic

01:16:14.900 truth

01:16:15.360 it's

01:16:16.820 suffering

01:16:17.300 tainted

01:16:17.660 by

01:16:17.880 malevolence

01:16:18.440 what do

01:16:19.340 you need

01:16:19.760 as an

01:16:21.000 antidote

01:16:21.340 to that

01:16:21.740 well

01:16:22.060 it's not

01:16:22.300 happiness

01:16:22.760 it's

01:16:24.300 something

01:16:24.500 like

01:16:24.720 meaning

01:16:25.180 and

01:16:26.580 the

01:16:26.860 meaning

01:16:27.100 seems

01:16:27.380 to be

01:16:27.680 derived

01:16:28.080 in the

01:16:28.460 pursuit

01:16:28.740 of

01:16:28.920 the

01:16:29.060 good

01:16:29.380 and

01:16:30.100 the

01:16:30.180 good

01:16:30.320 isn't

01:16:30.580 something

01:16:30.840 trivial

01:16:31.220 the

01:16:31.420 good

01:16:31.580 is

01:16:31.760 what

01:16:32.920 keeps

01:16:33.180 you

01:16:33.340 away

01:16:33.580 from

01:16:33.800 hell

01:16:34.180 in

01:16:35.380 any

01:16:35.760 I don't

01:16:36.540 care

01:16:36.700 what

01:16:36.960 sense

01:16:37.380 you

01:16:37.540 want

01:16:37.680 to

01:16:37.780 interpret

01:16:38.200 that

01:16:38.520 in

01:16:38.720 and

01:16:39.820 so

01:16:39.940 it's

01:16:40.080 a

01:16:40.180 non-trivial

01:16:40.680 thing

01:16:41.000 but

01:16:41.140 the

01:16:41.280 thing

01:16:41.440 is

01:16:41.580 the

01:16:41.720 pursuit

01:16:42.080 of

01:16:42.260 that

01:16:42.440 good

01:16:42.800 well

01:16:43.940 that's

01:16:44.140 what

01:16:44.240 lends

01:16:44.440 meaning

01:16:44.700 to

01:16:44.900 life

01:16:45.240 and

01:16:45.600 it

01:16:45.840 lends

01:16:46.080 the

01:16:46.260 meaning

01:16:46.460 to

01:16:46.660 life

01:16:46.920 that

01:16:47.100 enables

01:16:48.040 you

01:16:48.220 to

01:16:48.460 stand

01:16:49.320 up

01:16:49.540 under

01:16:49.720 the

01:16:49.900 load

01:16:50.120 of

01:16:50.280 life

01:16:50.580 and

01:16:50.800 maybe

01:16:50.980 to

01:16:51.140 push

01:16:51.320 back

01:16:51.580 against

01:16:51.880 the

01:16:52.040 malevolence

01:16:52.540 that

01:16:52.720 would

01:16:52.840 otherwise

01:16:53.240 corrupt

01:16:54.080 you

01:16:54.360 and

01:16:54.640 your

01:16:55.040 family

01:16:55.400 and

01:16:55.620 your

01:16:55.760 community

01:16:56.200 right

01:16:57.040 because

01:16:57.260 you

01:16:57.420 have

01:16:57.540 to

01:16:57.660 find

01:16:57.920 within

01:16:58.220 yourself

01:16:58.640 the

01:16:58.820 capability

01:16:59.280 to

01:16:59.520 withstand

01:16:59.920 the

01:17:00.120 catastrophe

01:17:00.540 of

01:17:00.820 life

01:17:01.100 and

01:17:01.680 you

01:17:01.760 find

01:17:01.960 that

01:17:02.120 through

01:17:02.300 meaning

01:17:02.700 and

01:17:03.440 you

01:17:03.520 find

01:17:03.680 the

01:17:03.800 meaning

01:17:04.000 through

01:17:04.200 responsibility

01:17:04.780 this is

01:17:05.540 something

01:17:05.820 that we've

01:17:06.220 done a very

01:17:06.620 bad job

01:17:07.120 of communicating

01:17:07.760 I think

01:17:08.320 is that

01:17:08.660 you know

01:17:10.240 you think

01:17:10.620 well why

01:17:11.080 would you

01:17:11.360 adopt

01:17:11.620 responsibility

01:17:12.300 it's such

01:17:12.760 a terrible

01:17:13.180 load

01:17:13.520 it's like

01:17:13.900 you can

01:17:14.540 be the

01:17:15.400 grasshopper

01:17:16.180 in the story

01:17:16.660 of the grasshopper

01:17:17.340 and the ant

01:17:17.780 you can

01:17:18.100 party like

01:17:19.700 there's no

01:17:20.080 tomorrow

01:17:20.480 you can live

01:17:21.080 impulsively

01:17:21.740 right

01:17:22.560 and you can

01:17:23.360 pursue

01:17:23.680 short term

01:17:24.220 pleasure

01:17:24.600 and you

01:17:25.560 can

01:17:25.740 make a

01:17:26.580 demonstration

01:17:27.020 of your

01:17:27.520 rights

01:17:27.880 and your

01:17:28.180 privileges

01:17:28.600 that other

01:17:29.020 people should

01:17:29.440 grant you

01:17:29.920 it's like

01:17:30.200 there's no

01:17:30.760 depth in

01:17:31.320 that

01:17:31.540 and everyone

01:17:31.940 knows it

01:17:32.560 where's the

01:17:33.940 depth

01:17:34.300 the depth

01:17:35.600 is in

01:17:36.000 responsibility

01:17:36.640 and you

01:17:37.620 also know

01:17:38.080 that

01:17:38.360 because

01:17:38.660 you know

01:17:39.020 on those

01:17:39.480 rare occasions

01:17:40.500 when you're

01:17:40.940 at peace

01:17:41.360 with yourself

01:17:41.960 and you

01:17:42.980 think

01:17:43.180 well maybe

01:17:43.780 I'm

01:17:44.160 justifying

01:17:44.880 my

01:17:45.120 miserable

01:17:45.500 existence

01:17:46.040 and your

01:17:47.020 conscience

01:17:47.440 isn't

01:17:47.840 bothering

01:17:48.140 you

01:17:48.400 you think

01:17:48.760 well I

01:17:49.360 finally did

01:17:50.000 something

01:17:50.300 right

01:17:50.740 and what

01:17:51.940 does that

01:17:52.200 mean

01:17:52.400 well you

01:17:52.780 took

01:17:52.940 responsibility

01:17:53.500 for yourself

01:17:54.220 proper

01:17:54.580 or you

01:17:54.820 took

01:17:54.980 responsibility

01:17:55.520 for a

01:17:56.000 friend

01:17:56.220 or you

01:17:56.460 took

01:17:56.620 responsibility

01:17:57.160 for your

01:17:57.660 family

01:17:57.980 maybe not

01:17:58.640 as much

01:17:58.960 as you

01:17:59.240 could have

01:17:59.720 but at least

01:18:00.360 some

01:18:00.760 you took

01:18:01.360 some

01:18:01.540 responsibility

01:18:02.140 for your

01:18:02.680 community

01:18:03.080 you have a little

01:18:03.920 respect for yourself

01:18:05.020 because you

01:18:06.160 managed that

01:18:07.120 and then you look at the people

01:18:08.480 you admire

01:18:09.040 and it's the same

01:18:09.780 thing

01:18:10.120 it's the people

01:18:10.680 you admire

01:18:11.220 spontaneously

01:18:12.140 are the people

01:18:13.200 who take

01:18:14.340 responsibility

01:18:15.260 and who do that

01:18:16.560 well

01:18:17.020 and who are not only

01:18:18.740 responsible for themselves

01:18:20.160 so they take care of

01:18:21.000 themselves

01:18:21.380 so they're not a

01:18:22.340 burden to others

01:18:23.080 as a minimal

01:18:24.100 ethical

01:18:24.560 prerequisite

01:18:25.440 but they have

01:18:26.260 excess capacity

01:18:27.180 they don't just

01:18:27.740 take care of

01:18:28.200 themselves

01:18:28.460 they take care

01:18:29.080 of their family

01:18:29.580 and they take care

01:18:30.440 of their community

01:18:31.020 and you spontaneously

01:18:32.200 admire people

01:18:33.100 like that

01:18:33.580 and so

01:18:33.880 that imprint

01:18:35.400 of that

01:18:36.020 admiration

01:18:36.720 is written

01:18:37.380 in your soul

01:18:38.340 you can't

01:18:39.000 escape it

01:18:39.660 you think

01:18:40.960 well

01:18:41.220 the meaning

01:18:42.500 that you need

01:18:43.140 to

01:18:43.960 ally yourself

01:18:45.680 within life

01:18:46.340 is associated

01:18:47.400 with the

01:18:47.900 voluntary acceptance

01:18:48.720 of responsibility

01:18:49.460 that's a hell

01:18:50.620 of a thing

01:18:51.100 and then you might

01:18:51.860 think

01:18:52.080 well

01:18:52.320 great

01:18:53.400 that's the secret

01:18:55.020 the meaning

01:18:56.100 that redeems life

01:18:57.040 is to be found

01:18:57.620 in responsibility

01:18:58.340 how much responsibility

01:18:59.640 should you adopt

01:19:00.520 and the answer to that

01:19:01.540 is as much

01:19:02.560 as you can

01:19:03.200 possibly manage

01:19:04.500 and all there is

01:19:06.000 in that

01:19:06.360 is a constant

01:19:07.560 process of

01:19:08.260 ennobling yourself

01:19:09.120 and developing

01:19:09.780 yourself

01:19:10.200 and making

01:19:10.660 yourself stronger

01:19:11.500 and making

01:19:12.100 everything around

01:19:12.760 you better

01:19:13.300 it's like

01:19:14.300 why in the world

01:19:15.400 would you do

01:19:15.840 anything other

01:19:16.360 than that

01:19:16.900 well

01:19:18.680 I didn't have

01:19:20.420 the opportunity

01:19:21.100 to make this

01:19:22.860 lengthy case

01:19:24.440 in the discussion

01:19:25.800 that I had

01:19:27.080 at Aspen

01:19:28.260 with the political

01:19:31.720 scientist

01:19:32.240 who wanted to

01:19:33.660 push me on

01:19:34.760 my attitude

01:19:35.400 towards policy

01:19:36.480 it's like

01:19:37.300 well that's my

01:19:37.840 attitude towards

01:19:38.540 policy

01:19:39.100 it's like

01:19:40.440 get your act

01:19:40.960 together

01:19:41.320 we've got things

01:19:42.400 to do man

01:19:43.060 well thank you

01:19:44.380 very much

01:19:44.940 Jordan Peterson

01:19:56.660 everybody

01:19:57.300 man I kid you

01:20:00.220 not

01:20:00.560 and I think

01:20:01.160 you guys

01:20:01.540 can see it

01:20:02.080 tonight

01:20:02.300 I mean

01:20:02.560 every single

01:20:03.400 night that

01:20:03.920 we've done

01:20:04.340 these

01:20:04.680 he's different

01:20:05.300 can you imagine

01:20:05.980 if he had

01:20:06.440 laid that answer

01:20:07.280 on that guy

01:20:08.600 that would

01:20:11.660 have been

01:20:11.920 something

01:20:12.120 it's more

01:20:12.460 fun with you

01:20:12.980 okay so

01:20:13.500 we're gonna

01:20:13.880 do a Q&A

01:20:14.520 you guys

01:20:14.980 submitted a

01:20:15.520 couple hundred

01:20:15.960 questions here

01:20:16.780 we'll try to

01:20:18.000 get to as

01:20:18.460 many as

01:20:18.860 possible

01:20:19.240 and actually

01:20:20.220 you know

01:20:20.700 Jordan and I

01:20:21.400 have become

01:20:22.260 quite close

01:20:23.340 during this

01:20:24.080 this tour

01:20:25.520 and I actually

01:20:26.120 have the password

01:20:26.800 to his computer

01:20:27.660 he's logged into

01:20:29.040 Twitter right now

01:20:29.920 I could end

01:20:30.540 this whole

01:20:31.060 fucking thing

01:20:32.020 we could make

01:20:38.020 Roseanne Barr

01:20:38.980 look pretty good

01:20:40.000 you know what I'm

01:20:40.520 saying

01:20:40.820 all right people

01:20:42.920 give it up for

01:20:43.460 Jordan Peterson

01:20:44.020 everybody

01:20:44.580 man for real

01:20:58.760 you were on it

01:20:59.540 tonight I mean

01:21:00.040 that last ten

01:21:00.880 minutes I feel

01:21:01.540 like that that

01:21:02.320 sums up the

01:21:03.240 whole damn

01:21:03.860 thing

01:21:04.340 and now to the

01:21:07.640 questions

01:21:08.060 okay

01:21:08.600 which movie

01:21:12.160 that you've

01:21:12.580 seen in the

01:21:13.000 past ten

01:21:13.740 years did

01:21:14.820 the best job

01:21:15.740 of telling

01:21:16.400 an archetypal

01:21:17.640 story

01:21:18.240 Groundhog Day

01:21:19.200 yeah

01:21:23.560 Groundhog Day

01:21:25.420 is actually a

01:21:26.080 perfect movie

01:21:26.800 if you

01:21:27.580 if you

01:21:28.140 if you

01:21:28.660 if you

01:21:29.260 apart from

01:21:30.060 the fact

01:21:30.380 you know

01:21:30.720 including the

01:21:31.520 fact that it

01:21:31.960 has

01:21:32.240 what's his name

01:21:34.340 Bill Murray

01:21:35.400 yeah it's like

01:21:36.000 I thought

01:21:36.260 Douglas Murray

01:21:37.020 it's like no

01:21:37.600 it's not

01:21:37.960 Douglas Murray

01:21:38.680 yeah because

01:21:41.480 well he just

01:21:43.040 how many times

01:21:43.620 does he die

01:21:44.320 it's like

01:21:45.600 and it's all

01:21:47.040 of the stupidity

01:21:47.900 in him has to

01:21:48.520 die and it's

01:21:49.220 like 300

01:21:50.340 suicide attempts

01:21:51.660 and until he

01:21:52.840 finally wises up

01:21:53.940 right he just

01:21:55.140 has to be hit

01:21:55.900 and hit

01:21:56.300 and hit

01:21:56.720 and hit

01:21:57.220 and hit

01:21:57.940 and it's quite

01:21:58.500 interesting too

01:21:59.120 because the

01:21:59.540 reason he

01:22:00.100 is willing

01:22:00.860 to subject

01:22:01.360 himself to

01:22:02.080 the hits

01:22:02.380 is because

01:22:02.820 he falls

01:22:03.840 in love

01:22:04.140 with someone

01:22:04.640 right so

01:22:05.060 he values

01:22:05.660 something

01:22:06.060 he finally

01:22:06.600 values

01:22:07.060 something

01:22:07.460 and then

01:22:08.040 he finds

01:22:08.460 that the

01:22:09.020 thing that

01:22:09.480 he values

01:22:09.980 rejects him

01:22:10.800 it serves

01:22:11.620 him as a

01:22:12.140 judge

01:22:12.520 and then

01:22:13.420 that motivates

01:22:14.080 his desire

01:22:14.740 to allow

01:22:15.840 all the parts

01:22:16.660 of him

01:22:16.920 that are

01:22:17.200 unworthy

01:22:17.620 to die

01:22:18.340 and what

01:22:20.460 happens is

01:22:21.020 that he

01:22:21.380 he isn't

01:22:22.700 successful

01:22:23.140 until he

01:22:23.540 gets the

01:22:24.000 day right

01:22:25.100 sufficient

01:22:26.360 unto the

01:22:26.880 day are

01:22:27.320 the

01:22:27.520 what's the

01:22:28.680 word

01:22:29.000 sufficient

01:22:29.520 unto the

01:22:30.080 day are

01:22:30.340 the problems

01:22:30.900 thereof

01:22:31.440 right that's

01:22:32.180 the central

01:22:32.620 theme in

01:22:33.060 the sermon

01:22:33.400 on the

01:22:33.700 mount

01:22:33.940 and the

01:22:34.620 sermon

01:22:34.800 on the

01:22:35.100 mount

01:22:35.300 is predicated

01:22:35.980 on the

01:22:36.320 idea that

01:22:36.760 you should

01:22:37.080 aim at

01:22:37.520 the highest

01:22:38.000 possible

01:22:38.520 good that

01:22:39.020 you can

01:22:39.360 conceive

01:22:39.840 and really

01:22:41.640 aim at

01:22:42.100 it like

01:22:42.720 with all

01:22:43.200 of your

01:22:43.500 soul

01:22:44.040 to aim

01:22:44.660 at that

01:22:45.040 and that's

01:22:45.560 to aim

01:22:46.100 away from

01:22:46.780 that abyss

01:22:47.380 that I

01:22:47.720 described

01:22:48.140 and then

01:22:48.820 to concentrate

01:22:49.360 on getting

01:22:49.800 the day

01:22:50.280 right

01:22:50.840 and that's

01:22:52.200 encapsulated

01:22:52.880 in that

01:22:53.220 brilliant

01:22:53.560 movie

01:22:53.940 that brilliant

01:22:54.520 comic movie

01:22:55.520 and so it

01:22:56.320 has a perfect

01:22:56.860 archetypal

01:22:57.360 structure

01:22:57.800 so I bet

01:22:59.300 you didn't

01:22:59.560 expect it

01:23:00.080 was that

01:23:00.400 movie

01:23:00.780 on to the

01:23:04.080 next question

01:23:04.760 which movie

01:23:07.320 that you've

01:23:07.740 seen in the

01:23:08.160 past 10

01:23:08.740 years did

01:23:09.280 the best job

01:23:09.940 of telling

01:23:10.360 an archetypal

01:23:11.220 they're good

01:23:15.240 they're good

01:23:16.300 how would you

01:23:19.280 work with a

01:23:20.260 narcissistic

01:23:21.280 mother who

01:23:22.080 is at the

01:23:22.820 top of the

01:23:23.680 authority

01:23:24.300 hierarchy in

01:23:25.240 the family

01:23:25.800 what's the

01:23:26.760 best way to

01:23:27.420 approach an

01:23:28.060 individual like

01:23:28.980 this

01:23:29.360 or I got a

01:23:35.640 couple questions

01:23:36.100 about Kermit

01:23:36.640 the frog here

01:23:37.280 if you want to

01:23:38.020 do that

01:23:38.400 instead

01:23:38.860 well the

01:23:43.240 image

01:23:43.540 you know

01:23:44.240 sometimes

01:23:44.760 when I

01:23:45.720 have been

01:23:47.340 engaged in

01:23:48.080 my

01:23:48.300 psychotherapeutic

01:23:49.100 practice

01:23:49.580 it's something

01:23:50.300 I learned

01:23:50.800 from a variety

01:23:51.760 of therapists

01:23:52.360 was to

01:23:54.620 watch what

01:23:55.660 your imagination

01:23:56.660 does when

01:23:57.380 people are

01:23:57.780 talking to

01:23:58.240 you

01:23:58.360 if people

01:23:59.360 are talking

01:23:59.780 to you

01:24:00.180 you'll think

01:24:01.360 up words

01:24:02.220 or words

01:24:04.520 will manifest

01:24:05.180 themselves in

01:24:05.920 your imagination

01:24:06.460 which is

01:24:07.040 actually a

01:24:07.520 better process

01:24:08.300 than thinking

01:24:08.980 them up

01:24:09.500 thinking them

01:24:10.980 up usually

01:24:11.380 means you're

01:24:11.800 trying to

01:24:12.100 direct your

01:24:12.680 thoughts towards

01:24:13.340 some predetermined

01:24:14.420 end but just

01:24:15.540 allowing the

01:24:16.220 thoughts to

01:24:16.700 emerge it

01:24:18.540 frees you in

01:24:19.360 some sense from

01:24:20.160 the limitations

01:24:20.800 of your own

01:24:21.440 bias and

01:24:22.740 that enables

01:24:24.440 a kind of

01:24:24.960 wisdom to

01:24:25.500 reveal itself

01:24:26.260 but that can

01:24:27.140 also happen

01:24:27.640 with images

01:24:28.160 like so I

01:24:29.320 would listen

01:24:30.200 to my clients

01:24:30.960 as if they

01:24:32.740 knew something

01:24:33.440 it's rule

01:24:34.740 nine assume

01:24:35.440 that the person

01:24:36.020 you're listening

01:24:36.440 to knows

01:24:36.920 something you

01:24:37.520 don't I

01:24:38.400 always assumed

01:24:38.860 that with

01:24:39.200 my clients

01:24:39.840 because they

01:24:40.740 knew all sorts

01:24:41.180 of things that

01:24:41.640 I didn't and

01:24:42.800 then I would

01:24:43.160 listen to them

01:24:43.720 and sometimes

01:24:44.280 little images

01:24:45.440 would come to

01:24:46.000 mind then I

01:24:46.920 just tell them

01:24:47.380 what the images

01:24:47.820 were and then

01:24:48.840 we'd take that

01:24:49.520 apart and the

01:24:50.260 images are kind

01:24:50.800 of like a

01:24:51.160 fragment of a

01:24:51.820 dream you know

01:24:52.540 and so it

01:24:53.560 would provide a

01:24:54.200 broader context

01:24:55.220 within which what

01:24:56.000 they were saying

01:24:56.480 could be interpreted

01:24:57.140 and when you

01:24:57.860 asked that question

01:24:58.540 I had all the

01:24:59.160 images from

01:24:59.720 Sleeping Beauty

01:25:01.940 come into my

01:25:03.400 mind and so

01:25:04.720 what happens is

01:25:05.480 the evil mother

01:25:06.200 in Sleeping Beauty

01:25:07.200 the evil mother

01:25:08.320 turns into the

01:25:09.400 dragon of chaos

01:25:10.280 and then the

01:25:11.620 hero to avoid

01:25:13.060 being trapped

01:25:13.760 in a dungeon

01:25:14.540 until he's old

01:25:15.820 which you should

01:25:16.960 be able to figure

01:25:17.400 out what that

01:25:17.920 means right

01:25:18.580 that's that's the

01:25:19.820 high school shooter

01:25:20.580 who lives in his

01:25:21.380 mother's basement

01:25:22.080 that's really what

01:25:24.220 that is to avoid

01:25:25.780 being trapped like

01:25:26.580 that you have to

01:25:28.160 take on the

01:25:29.260 that force

01:25:30.500 let's say that

01:25:32.040 narcissistic

01:25:32.880 overwhelming

01:25:33.680 what would you

01:25:36.640 say

01:25:36.960 too

01:25:37.860 close

01:25:39.880 eternal

01:25:41.720 maternal

01:25:42.220 presence

01:25:42.700 that's the

01:25:43.260 pathology of the

01:25:44.220 maternal

01:25:44.620 that you take it

01:25:46.300 on with courage

01:25:47.340 and truth

01:25:48.000 right that's the

01:25:49.160 armament in that

01:25:49.940 story

01:25:50.340 and then

01:25:51.500 well then you can

01:25:53.200 forgive women too

01:25:54.140 because that's what

01:25:55.080 happens at the end

01:25:55.620 of Sleeping Beauty

01:25:56.280 right he kills the

01:25:57.480 terrible mother

01:25:59.140 the dragon of chaos

01:26:00.220 all the

01:26:01.700 thorns that

01:26:03.540 stop him from

01:26:04.420 finding love

01:26:05.020 disappear

01:26:05.440 and he finds

01:26:07.280 the way to actually

01:26:08.140 have a relationship

01:26:08.800 with a woman

01:26:09.400 that's what that

01:26:10.560 story means

01:26:11.140 it's a very deep

01:26:11.860 story

01:26:12.240 truth and courage

01:26:14.580 that's good

01:26:15.200 I would say

01:26:16.580 that's your best

01:26:17.760 bet

01:26:18.080 I would also

01:26:19.900 not

01:26:20.260 under rate the

01:26:22.640 utility of

01:26:23.240 getting the hell

01:26:23.980 away from there

01:26:24.680 no because you

01:26:31.820 need to go you

01:26:32.400 need to get away

01:26:33.080 and maybe you're

01:26:33.940 made to feel guilty

01:26:34.800 because you need to

01:26:35.540 get away because

01:26:36.560 that's a great trick

01:26:37.420 it's like because

01:26:38.460 your impulse is to

01:26:39.720 is to move out

01:26:41.060 towards life and

01:26:42.080 to respond to the

01:26:43.560 call to adventure

01:26:44.340 and to flee to

01:26:46.060 to flee the coop

01:26:47.800 right and to fly

01:26:48.920 away from the nest

01:26:49.740 and all of that

01:26:50.300 and that's a that's

01:26:51.620 a desire that should

01:26:52.320 be facilitated by a

01:26:54.280 mother that cares

01:26:54.960 for you because

01:26:55.740 as the psychoanalyst

01:26:57.260 pointed out at the

01:26:58.200 beginning of the

01:26:58.700 20th century the

01:26:59.540 good mother always

01:27:00.280 fails right because

01:27:02.580 she stops being a

01:27:03.400 mother and if your

01:27:07.000 mother won't stop

01:27:07.640 being a mother then

01:27:08.440 you need to go away

01:27:10.380 because she has no

01:27:12.600 right to not stop

01:27:13.440 being a mother

01:27:13.980 because you're not

01:27:15.000 her child right and

01:27:17.660 if she still thinks

01:27:18.340 that you're her child

01:27:19.140 then then she's

01:27:20.860 infantilizing you and

01:27:22.040 and tempting you to

01:27:23.380 remain an infant so

01:27:24.240 that you don't have

01:27:24.780 to take on any

01:27:25.400 responsibility and

01:27:27.340 so if truth and

01:27:28.300 courage won't suffice

01:27:29.340 then departure is

01:27:31.300 mandated and if the

01:27:33.420 price that you pay

01:27:34.440 for that is a guilt

01:27:35.420 trip then don't

01:27:36.280 answer the phone

01:27:37.080 look and I can tell

01:27:46.340 you something else

01:27:46.980 too about your poor

01:27:47.780 old mother who

01:27:48.440 you're abandoning and

01:27:49.500 and and and leaving

01:27:51.120 to her own devices is

01:27:53.320 that if you leave and

01:27:55.660 you develop your own

01:27:56.820 autonomy then you

01:27:58.120 might be able to take

01:27:58.760 care of her when she's

01:27:59.700 actually old and frail

01:28:00.920 and there'll be a part

01:28:02.900 of her that's quite

01:28:03.620 happy that you escape

01:28:04.660 from her trap and

01:28:06.720 that's the part that

01:28:07.440 you could potentially

01:28:08.400 redeem by your

01:28:09.360 escape so there's

01:28:11.020 nothing in it but

01:28:11.820 good even though

01:28:13.600 you'll you'll pay the

01:28:14.720 price in guilt it's

01:28:16.180 like it's a price you

01:28:17.460 shouldn't be required

01:28:18.600 to pay to begin

01:28:19.280 with no she

01:28:21.000 doesn't have that

01:28:21.460 right to put that

01:28:22.960 burden on you when

01:28:24.060 her job is to

01:28:24.820 facilitate your

01:28:26.400 competent departure

01:28:27.860 are there any games

01:28:38.600 you play video games

01:28:40.320 chess monopoly etc

01:28:42.200 prisoners of

01:28:43.920 settlers of

01:28:45.260 katan yeah i like

01:28:48.380 that game i liked

01:28:50.700 risk okay i like to

01:28:51.760 play risk but risk

01:28:53.740 you always won if

01:28:54.600 you took australia

01:28:55.540 and that just annoyed

01:28:56.380 me so so but i

01:28:59.000 think i think settlers

01:29:00.000 of katan is a better

01:29:01.100 game and so it's quite

01:29:02.180 fun um then there's

01:29:05.240 whatever game i'm

01:29:06.140 playing right now

01:29:07.020 that game so which

01:29:09.800 seems to be quite

01:29:10.520 engaging so i like

01:29:13.560 the yeah i play with

01:29:14.200 that with my kids and

01:29:15.240 my wife quite a bit

01:29:16.120 and so that's that's

01:29:17.600 quite fun in the past

01:29:20.920 you've said that you

01:29:21.700 identify as being a

01:29:23.060 christian do you

01:29:24.240 believe that jesus no

01:29:25.760 i'm not i don't think

01:29:26.900 i actually said that

01:29:27.820 right out i might have

01:29:28.880 i might have it's

01:29:30.280 possible okay so

01:29:32.680 maybe i did

01:29:33.320 be careful with your

01:29:37.400 language peterson

01:29:38.840 good one good one

01:29:42.120 yeah all right well

01:29:44.100 putting that aside for

01:29:45.040 a second the second

01:29:45.700 part is the important

01:29:46.820 part do you believe that

01:29:48.220 jesus christ died and

01:29:49.980 physically resurrected

01:29:51.720 from the dead three

01:29:53.040 days later this seems

01:29:54.460 to come up a lot it

01:29:55.540 does it does come up a

01:29:56.620 lot

01:29:56.860 i have the i'm going

01:30:02.840 to use the same

01:30:03.500 answer that i usually

01:30:04.360 use for that question

01:30:05.340 which is i don't

01:30:06.700 understand enough about

01:30:08.640 the doctrine to address

01:30:10.260 the question you know

01:30:12.220 like i'm making my way

01:30:13.420 through the biblical

01:30:14.020 stories i i did a 15

01:30:17.280 lecture series last year

01:30:19.560 on genesis and i'm

01:30:21.100 going to start up again

01:30:21.980 in november with with

01:30:23.580 the stories in exodus

01:30:24.640 see and i i don't you

01:30:32.740 think well that's that's

01:30:33.860 a question you should

01:30:34.860 just be able to answer

01:30:35.520 that question it's like

01:30:36.440 no that's not right

01:30:37.900 because that's a really

01:30:38.580 really complicated

01:30:39.260 question see there's a

01:30:42.060 there's an idea that's

01:30:43.240 nested inside christianity

01:30:44.780 that whatever is divine

01:30:46.020 is outside of time and

01:30:47.420 space it's truly outside

01:30:49.400 of time and space and

01:30:50.500 that makes any

01:30:51.880 discussions of what

01:30:52.960 occurs within that

01:30:54.840 symbolic framework

01:30:55.980 dependent on a series

01:31:00.380 of presumptions about

01:31:01.560 the nature of time and

01:31:03.060 space and i don't

01:31:04.440 understand the context

01:31:06.240 within which that story

01:31:07.400 manifested itself well

01:31:08.760 enough to address the

01:31:09.820 question and you might

01:31:11.060 think well i'm just

01:31:11.820 waffling it's like and

01:31:12.940 could he possibly believe

01:31:14.120 in the physical

01:31:14.660 resurrection of the

01:31:15.520 body it's like well

01:31:16.800 first of all the world

01:31:18.000 is a very weird place

01:31:19.240 and so and it's much

01:31:20.940 weirder than we think

01:31:21.960 and so i can't answer

01:31:25.460 that question because i

01:31:26.480 don't know enough i

01:31:28.120 don't know enough to

01:31:28.900 answer it properly

01:31:29.700 because i also don't

01:31:31.120 understand exactly what

01:31:32.240 the doctrine is you know

01:31:33.740 it's not like there's

01:31:34.620 there's a singular

01:31:36.900 agreement on the

01:31:40.340 resurrection story even

01:31:41.880 in the biblical

01:31:42.900 narratives there's four

01:31:44.660 different accounts to

01:31:45.620 begin with and so and i

01:31:48.360 don't know enough about

01:31:49.220 the accounts now you

01:31:51.180 know you might think

01:31:51.900 well why would you even

01:31:52.780 why would you even give

01:31:56.000 any credence to the

01:31:56.880 question because it

01:31:58.120 seems so preposterous it's

01:31:59.480 like fair enough man

01:32:01.700 that's a good question

01:32:02.900 but here's part of the

01:32:05.340 answer to that i spent a

01:32:07.640 lot of time studying

01:32:08.600 religious texts and

01:32:10.860 mostly the biblical texts

01:32:14.040 but not only the biblical

01:32:15.240 texts and i've studied

01:32:16.960 them in a strange way

01:32:17.900 because i've studied the

01:32:19.520 texts themselves but

01:32:20.440 then i've studied other

01:32:21.780 domains of knowledge

01:32:22.960 and i've interpreted

01:32:25.680 those stories through

01:32:28.080 those other domains of

01:32:29.100 knowledge and the way

01:32:31.020 i've done that is that i

01:32:31.940 try to only rely on an

01:32:34.680 interpretation that works

01:32:36.940 in relationship to the

01:32:38.440 story and in relationship

01:32:39.820 to all those other

01:32:40.760 domains of knowledge

01:32:41.620 simultaneously so it

01:32:43.160 has to work as part of

01:32:44.200 the biblical narrative but

01:32:45.200 it has to work biologically

01:32:46.340 and it has to work and it

01:32:47.980 has to work philosophically

01:32:49.160 it has to work all of

01:32:50.320 those levels up and it

01:32:51.420 has to be practically

01:32:52.220 applicable and and so

01:32:54.240 you think about how you

01:32:55.480 you decide whether

01:32:56.620 something's real by using

01:32:57.920 your senses right well if

01:32:59.780 you see something is it

01:33:01.200 real well usually but not

01:33:05.360 always well what if you

01:33:06.760 see it and hear it well

01:33:08.580 then that's probably more

01:33:09.660 real if you see it and

01:33:11.240 hear it and touch it and

01:33:12.820 smell it well there aren't

01:33:16.420 very many things that

01:33:17.380 aren't real that pass that

01:33:18.640 test it the the reality

01:33:21.980 manifests itself across

01:33:23.540 multiple levels of

01:33:24.440 analysis simultaneously and

01:33:26.260 so that's the strategy that

01:33:27.980 i've been using to extract

01:33:29.520 out an interpretation of

01:33:30.640 the biblical stories which

01:33:31.740 is actually my response to

01:33:33.000 sam harris's objection

01:33:34.140 because harris says well

01:33:35.320 how do you know that your

01:33:36.200 interpretation of the text

01:33:37.560 is valid you're not just

01:33:39.000 reading into it it's like

01:33:40.740 well sam how do you know

01:33:41.800 that your attempt to

01:33:42.660 derive the world of values

01:33:43.820 from the facts isn't just

01:33:45.060 arbitrary it's the same

01:33:46.420 objection so he's hoist on

01:33:48.980 the same petard with his

01:33:50.700 theory but i have an answer

01:33:52.200 to it which is i'm only

01:33:54.500 willing to accept

01:33:55.880 interpretations that work

01:33:57.180 at multiple levels of

01:33:58.740 analysis simultaneously now

01:34:00.420 one of the things i've found

01:34:01.560 as a consequence of doing

01:34:02.660 that is that the deeper i go

01:34:04.520 into a religious text the

01:34:05.660 more truth reveals itself

01:34:07.440 and that isn't something i

01:34:09.240 necessarily expected and

01:34:10.640 it's happened to me lots

01:34:11.780 of times in my life like

01:34:13.100 first of all i didn't

01:34:14.200 really believe that there

01:34:15.360 was anything of valuable

01:34:16.780 value in the religious

01:34:17.920 texts to begin with and

01:34:19.080 that was when i was a

01:34:19.760 young man say but i learned

01:34:21.780 that as i got deeper into

01:34:24.060 the reality of good and

01:34:26.040 evil that religious language

01:34:27.640 became necessary you know

01:34:29.880 and i partly learned that

01:34:30.760 from reading dostoevsky but

01:34:31.940 but i learned it i also

01:34:34.140 learned it in psychotherapy

01:34:35.080 when i was talking to my

01:34:36.300 clients about truly terrible

01:34:38.940 things that had been

01:34:39.800 happening to them like

01:34:40.720 murderous things that

01:34:43.040 that unfolded over decades

01:34:44.920 like in in the most

01:34:45.920 pathological circumstances

01:34:47.620 a framework that didn't

01:34:50.540 involve a discussion of

01:34:51.620 good and evil didn't even

01:34:52.920 touch the problem and and

01:34:54.880 more than that you know

01:34:56.740 i've noticed with people

01:34:57.640 who have post-traumatic

01:34:58.440 stress disorder that unless

01:35:00.860 they develop a philosophy of

01:35:02.260 which is often in some sense

01:35:03.740 self-inflicted because

01:35:04.800 sometimes especially soldiers

01:35:06.240 who develop post-traumatic

01:35:07.300 stress disorder develop it

01:35:08.860 because they see themselves

01:35:10.260 do something they can't

01:35:11.900 believe they did and then

01:35:14.160 they can't shake it it's

01:35:15.420 it's blown their world into

01:35:17.320 fragments and they can't

01:35:19.300 put it back together and the

01:35:20.340 only way they can put it

01:35:21.140 together is to develop a

01:35:22.340 sophisticated philosophy of

01:35:23.660 good and evil you know and

01:35:25.440 i i mean there there's

01:35:28.340 plenty of clinical evidence

01:35:29.660 that describes post-traumatic

01:35:31.180 stress disorder as this kind of

01:35:32.640 fractionating this fracturing

01:35:34.440 but i've had many many

01:35:36.120 soldiers come and talk to me

01:35:37.580 this happened latest this

01:35:39.200 happened in iceland june 8th

01:35:41.400 this guy from idaho came to

01:35:42.700 iceland to see me because i

01:35:44.260 was talking there and he was

01:35:46.580 in tears when he saw me and

01:35:47.820 he he'd been a serviceman he

01:35:49.440 had post-traumatic stress

01:35:50.340 disorder and he told me that

01:35:51.900 my lectures on good and evil had

01:35:53.340 helped him recover from it and

01:35:55.220 so i also learned that there's

01:35:56.700 levels of reality that only

01:35:58.660 religious language can lay out

01:36:00.540 that's what the religious

01:36:01.440 language is for actually that's

01:36:03.340 why it developed and so the

01:36:05.400 deeper i got into the stories

01:36:06.620 the more meaning revealed

01:36:07.680 itself and it seemed

01:36:08.680 bottomless and so i've

01:36:10.900 certainly seen that with the

01:36:11.920 opening stories of genesis but

01:36:13.360 then i also rediscovered it

01:36:14.620 last year when i was going

01:36:15.600 through the abrahamic stories

01:36:16.820 the deeper i went the deeper

01:36:18.280 they got and the deeper i went

01:36:19.820 the deeper they got there was

01:36:20.960 no bottom and so i'm very

01:36:24.000 loath to throw away the baby

01:36:25.660 with the bath water let's say or

01:36:26.960 even the bath water for that

01:36:28.200 matter it's like there's

01:36:30.100 something to the idea of the

01:36:31.660 dying and resurrecting hero

01:36:32.940 there's something to that idea

01:36:34.960 and i don't know how deep that

01:36:36.780 idea goes like you i can treat

01:36:38.660 it just symbolically which is

01:36:40.120 basically what i usually do it's

01:36:42.100 like i i can take a union

01:36:43.840 approach which is kind of like the

01:36:45.100 approach of joseph campbell and

01:36:46.340 say it's a deep idea that the hero

01:36:49.220 is that which sacrifices himself or

01:36:53.220 part of himself or herself for that

01:36:54.860 matter in the pursuit of the good

01:36:56.740 that's the dragon combat story and

01:36:59.440 look i could give you an example

01:37:01.160 of that okay so most of you many

01:37:03.780 of you probably watched the second

01:37:05.600 harry potter movie right and there's

01:37:08.720 a magical castle which you all accept

01:37:11.520 without blinking an eye by the way and

01:37:13.560 it's full of magical children which you

01:37:15.460 also accept that's okay no problem we

01:37:17.580 can watch that and underneath the

01:37:19.480 magical castle there's like a an

01:37:21.840 immense ancient system of pipes and

01:37:24.980 and sewers and inside that lives a

01:37:27.120 gigantic snake that's the basilisk

01:37:29.960 right and that's echoes the garden

01:37:31.680 of of eden by the way with its snake

01:37:34.180 it's the same structure and although

01:37:36.780 you probably didn't think that when

01:37:38.100 you watched the movie but it doesn't

01:37:39.320 matter it's still there and then when

01:37:41.900 you see the snake when you see the

01:37:44.000 snake it turns you to stone and you

01:37:46.060 accept that it's like yeah well of

01:37:47.440 course when you look at a giant snake

01:37:48.760 it turns you to stone everyone knows

01:37:50.680 that it's like well it's because if

01:37:53.660 you're a prey animal and you see a

01:37:55.400 predator then you freeze that's why you

01:37:58.780 know that it's like you know it all

01:38:01.340 right you've known it for 60 million

01:38:02.960 years like you seriously know it it's

01:38:05.680 built into you anyway so the snake ends

01:38:09.900 up capturing the virgin that's the saint

01:38:12.300 george story genevra right that's a

01:38:14.920 variant of virginia which is obviously a

01:38:17.060 variant of virgin in case in case you

01:38:19.240 didn't notice that and so the snake

01:38:22.240 takes the virgin because that's what

01:38:23.780 snakes do and everyone knows that and

01:38:26.180 then what harry has to do is go down

01:38:28.360 into the depths to confront what he

01:38:30.300 would least want to confront and and

01:38:33.220 and and have a great battle with this

01:38:35.480 subterranean serpent and and he does

01:38:38.540 that in the serpent bites him which is

01:38:41.340 the encounter with evil right that's what

01:38:43.060 causes post-traumatic stress disorder

01:38:44.640 and what cures him are the tears of a

01:38:47.240 of a phoenix yeah see you guys know that

01:38:50.500 of course that what cures if you've

01:38:52.160 bitten by a giant snake well obviously

01:38:54.080 it's phoenix tears that fix you everyone

01:38:57.400 knows that well the phoenix is a dying

01:39:00.040 and resurrecting soul it's a bird it's

01:39:02.480 an aerial spirit and when it ages it

01:39:05.460 bursts into flame and then it's reborn and

01:39:07.600 so the story that you watched was the

01:39:10.240 story that that which dies and is

01:39:12.880 eternally reborn is eternal medication for

01:39:16.300 the poisonous bite of the ultimate

01:39:18.420 serpent so that's the story man it's

01:39:22.020 like

01:39:22.260 so so you see you see in that story

01:39:28.860 there's built in the idea of death and

01:39:31.140 resurrection and actually the entire

01:39:32.640 harry potter series which is the battle

01:39:35.080 against evil and in case you didn't

01:39:37.180 notice i mean that's voldemort right

01:39:38.880 he's satan for all intents and purposes

01:39:40.920 which makes the fundamentalist christian

01:39:43.100 assault on harry potter pretty comical in

01:39:45.120 my estimation but in order for harry to

01:39:48.360 finally defeat voldemort he has to die

01:39:50.880 and be reborn that's how the book ends

01:39:52.740 it's like and you know i don't know most

01:39:55.200 of you bought that book for your kids

01:39:56.580 right seven six hundred page volumes to

01:39:59.800 outline this story and you went to the

01:40:01.820 movies and it's and and you buy it you

01:40:04.540 think oh yeah well that's a great movie

01:40:05.920 it makes great enough so that tens of

01:40:09.120 millions of people spent billions of

01:40:11.560 dollars on it it's like that's behavioral

01:40:14.140 indication that something is going on

01:40:16.580 and ten-year-old kids were reading

01:40:18.280 five hundred page books it's like why

01:40:20.200 were they so engrossed by it well you

01:40:22.720 you can figure you can figure that out

01:40:24.420 it's like what the hell is going on it's

01:40:26.840 like there's some massive cultural

01:40:28.980 phenomena phenomenon happening there it's

01:40:32.200 like well she's telling a story that

01:40:33.520 everyone knows but no one knows they

01:40:35.420 know it and so there is something to

01:40:37.900 this idea of the dying and

01:40:39.080 resurrecting hero and the question is

01:40:41.060 well what is there to it and the

01:40:44.340 answer is the more you look the more

01:40:46.460 there is to it and so i'm not willing

01:40:49.260 to just well do you believe in the

01:40:51.900 physical resurrection of christ it's

01:40:53.480 like i know why that question is being

01:40:54.940 asked it's like but it's it's a trap

01:40:57.880 that question either way you answer it

01:41:00.120 it's a trap it's like sorry it's a deep

01:41:03.860 problem it's way deeper than than we

01:41:07.260 know and so i'm not going to answer it

01:41:10.140 casually so

01:41:11.520 well on that note boxers are briefs

01:41:21.980 no sorry

01:41:26.460 not going to answer that casually

01:41:31.600 neither he's free balling that's the

01:41:38.640 takeaway tonight people yeah that's

01:41:40.440 right it's commando for me man on stage

01:41:43.200 any chance that trump will nominate you

01:41:49.900 for the supreme court very funny very

01:41:56.820 funny

01:41:57.220 how much worse do you think it's going

01:42:02.060 to get with the left before it gets

01:42:03.920 better

01:42:04.240 i guess we're going to find out aren't

01:42:11.160 we

01:42:11.420 well i would say i would say that's on

01:42:15.000 you

01:42:15.340 you know like you you all have your

01:42:19.400 circles of influence so you know when

01:42:22.640 people are feeling hopeless about their

01:42:24.180 lives

01:42:24.560 and maybe they're suicidal they think

01:42:27.900 well life is a horror show and it can be

01:42:32.480 unbearable and what does it matter

01:42:34.860 anyways

01:42:35.340 because that's the pathway to suicide

01:42:38.300 those sorts of thoughts that and i'm a

01:42:40.120 burden to other people or there's a

01:42:42.200 variety of things you can think if you're

01:42:43.680 suicidal but the hopelessness of

01:42:47.160 existence is certainly core to that

01:42:48.860 and one strand of that thinking is how

01:42:53.780 insignificant you are out here on this

01:42:56.740 tiny dust mode of a planet among

01:42:58.940 hundreds of billions of not only stars

01:43:02.160 but galaxies in this near infinite

01:43:05.160 universe that has this immense time frame

01:43:07.900 and there you are in some isolated

01:43:10.920 suburb of the galaxy spinning around the

01:43:14.720 sun pointlessly suffering away until you

01:43:18.340 die and vanish one dust moat among seven

01:43:21.700 billion something like that good night

01:43:24.920 everybody

01:43:25.360 just yeah i was just trying to cheer you up

01:43:29.920 a bit here before you go home

01:43:31.120 but you know it's it's it and so who cares

01:43:35.720 if you live or die well it's it there's any

01:43:41.240 number of things about that way of looking at

01:43:43.620 the world that just aren't right first of

01:43:46.640 all you're not one dust moat among seven

01:43:48.760 billion you're networked and you can

01:43:51.320 demonstrate that arithmetically very

01:43:53.240 rapidly each of you is connected on

01:43:56.320 average one-to-one with about a thousand

01:43:59.460 people and that's an underestimate

01:44:01.220 especially if you go across your lifespan

01:44:02.920 you know maybe you'll influence ten thousand

01:44:05.440 people in your life some of you many more

01:44:07.500 and some of you less but let's say on

01:44:09.620 average it's a thousand and i mean to

01:44:11.760 have a pretty profound influence you know

01:44:13.560 for better or for worse you might not be

01:44:16.160 the cardinal experience of their life

01:44:19.000 that that you you know you that's only

01:44:22.240 true for a small number of the people that

01:44:24.320 you interact with but you can have an

01:44:25.880 influence on a lot of people and so

01:44:27.820 that's a thousand people and each of those

01:44:29.820 people know a thousand people so that's a

01:44:31.600 million and then each of those know a

01:44:33.520 thousand and that's a billion so you're

01:44:35.000 two people away from a billion people

01:44:36.880 and so you're a center of influence that

01:44:39.760 magnitude of which you don't want to

01:44:41.200 underestimate i mean that's that's part of

01:44:43.780 the idea that you're a sovereign

01:44:45.100 individual of of divine value it's like

01:44:47.860 you're a center of consciousness you're

01:44:49.620 you and and and and the and the and the

01:44:52.040 and the ripples of your ethical or

01:44:53.960 unethical activity produce a larger

01:44:57.060 consequence than you might ever want to

01:44:59.460 imagine and if you want to act so that

01:45:05.440 things don't destabilize you know you

01:45:08.620 have to want that first right and that

01:45:10.560 means to some degree being willing to

01:45:12.100 stretch out your hand to your enemy

01:45:13.480 because of course you're not having a

01:45:16.200 conflict with the people that agree

01:45:17.460 with you you're having a conflict with

01:45:18.900 the people who don't agree with you and

01:45:20.140 you need to figure out how to not make

01:45:22.260 that bloody unless that's what you want

01:45:25.020 and hopefully that isn't what you want

01:45:26.840 and i think the way to sanity is

01:45:31.320 through well it is precisely through

01:45:34.260 that it's it's it's through the

01:45:36.160 development of your individual

01:45:37.260 character so that you can be the sort

01:45:38.740 of person that can listen to someone

01:45:40.420 who's pushed themselves into a position

01:45:43.080 that's too extreme and and entice them

01:45:45.280 back to the to the consensual to the

01:45:49.140 consensual center something like that so

01:45:51.120 that you can continue to live in peace

01:45:53.260 and you know you're a great country

01:45:54.900 you you've set up a society where

01:45:57.580 where you've managed that for for for a

01:46:00.980 couple of hundred years you know through

01:46:02.740 bad times and good and and and to the

01:46:05.280 great benefit of everyone in the world

01:46:07.520 to the great and continuing benefit of

01:46:10.200 everyone in the world and i would say

01:46:11.500 well that would be good to continue

01:46:12.700 that but you have to want that you have

01:46:15.020 to want peace and not victory you know

01:46:17.480 and that goes again to the statement

01:46:19.140 about winning at the beginning of the

01:46:20.680 lecture it's like if you if you're

01:46:23.040 smart you fight for peace you do that

01:46:26.000 with your wife for example it's like

01:46:27.520 you want to you want to win when you

01:46:28.740 have an argument with your wife well

01:46:30.660 first of all good luck with that well

01:46:33.520 because you have to wake up beside her

01:46:35.340 the next day and if you win then she

01:46:37.480 loses and then she's a loser and that's

01:46:39.320 who you wake up with and and huh and

01:46:45.140 maybe you want to win up wake up with a

01:46:46.780 loser because you want to be a martyr or

01:46:48.520 you want to be the winner it's like

01:46:49.860 that's fine but you know you play that

01:46:51.520 game for five or six years and you'll

01:46:53.040 be in your own particular brand of hell

01:46:54.780 and that's for sure and and you'll

01:46:56.820 deserve it too because you produced it

01:46:58.500 and so you know you have to live with

01:47:01.560 your neighbors crazy as they are they

01:47:05.960 may not be any crazier than you are you

01:47:08.220 know and it's highly probable when i was

01:47:11.200 on bill mars show about a month ago it

01:47:13.740 was pretty liberal leaning panel four or

01:47:16.200 five people on it other than me new york

01:47:18.600 times journalist atlantic monthly

01:47:20.340 journalist governor of washington i think

01:47:23.820 there's one other person who's well

01:47:27.960 there's bill maher obviously but they

01:47:29.540 were all talking away about you know

01:47:31.040 how reprehensible the trump types were

01:47:33.080 and they were being all self-satisfied

01:47:35.940 about listing off trump's faults which

01:47:38.280 like doesn't really require what what

01:47:40.600 would you call it the inspiration of

01:47:42.680 genius to manage and you know i was

01:47:47.960 sitting there listening kind of

01:47:49.240 detached because i'm a canadian and so

01:47:51.060 i'm a little bit detached from the

01:47:52.740 situation and i thought okay i'm going

01:47:56.820 to ask a question that goes underneath

01:47:58.520 the discussion it's like so i waited

01:48:01.100 for a pause and i said what do you plan

01:48:04.360 to do with all those people that voted

01:48:05.700 for him

01:48:06.140 it's like 50 percent of your population

01:48:09.560 it's like it's half the people who

01:48:10.920 live on your street hey it might be

01:48:12.980 your brother

01:48:13.480 right it's going to be some of your

01:48:15.540 family members it's like they're all

01:48:18.200 reprehensible they're all contemptible

01:48:20.240 they're all stupid that's your plan for

01:48:22.760 peace is it that's that's your plan for

01:48:24.720 peace

01:48:25.080 it's like it's not a good plan so well

01:48:29.120 maybe you don't want peace maybe you

01:48:30.440 want victory

01:48:31.020 it's like decide what you mean by victory

01:48:34.020 because peace is victory man and i don't

01:48:36.980 mean the peace that comes as a

01:48:38.200 consequence of capitulation because

01:48:40.160 that's not peace peace is the

01:48:42.640 consequence of consensus and

01:48:44.100 negotiation and it beats hell it beats

01:48:48.560 hell and it beats slavery and consensus

01:48:51.380 and negotiation is the pathway forward and

01:48:53.400 that's why you need to continue the

01:48:54.680 dialogue because the dialogue is

01:48:56.820 everything the dialogue is how you

01:48:58.620 maintain peace and so hopefully you

01:49:01.000 make yourself articulate and thoughtful

01:49:03.560 so that you can conduct the dialogue

01:49:05.620 properly because after all your

01:49:07.140 sovereign individuals with the

01:49:08.540 responsibility of the state resting on

01:49:10.240 your shoulders and if you take that

01:49:12.100 lightly then the state will shake and

01:49:14.520 its walls will fall on you and everyone

01:49:17.840 you love and unless that's what you want

01:49:20.700 then don't aim at it aim away from it and

01:49:24.680 that's what i'm hoping we'll do you know i

01:49:27.180 have faith in this i think that we can get

01:49:29.680 our act together and that we can make

01:49:31.420 things better and that we can avoid

01:49:33.280 taking this polarization to its logical

01:49:36.460 conclusion even though there are people

01:49:38.020 who would be happy if that's what

01:49:39.300 happened because they would like to

01:49:40.540 dance in the burning ruins and say i told

01:49:42.820 you so but hopefully you don't want to be

01:49:45.140 one of those people or maybe you don't

01:49:46.680 want to allow the part of you that would

01:49:48.980 want that to gain ascendancy because maybe

01:49:53.200 you don't want to dance in the burning

01:49:54.540 ruins so well

01:49:58.260 all right we got time for one more this

01:50:08.380 feels like a fitting ending what do you

01:50:11.320 want to be when you grow up jordan peterson

01:50:13.160 well i'm having a pretty good time of it

01:50:18.880 right now i'm going to keep doing what

01:50:20.960 i'm doing i think if hopefully i can

01:50:23.120 hopefully i can figure out how to do it

01:50:34.960 better as i keep practicing no one part of

01:50:37.860 the great privilege let's say of being

01:50:40.420 able to address audiences night after

01:50:42.480 night is that i get to keep practicing

01:50:44.220 talking to people you know and i can

01:50:47.180 watch and listen and see what's working

01:50:50.720 and and what's working in the way that i

01:50:53.820 would like it to work you know right now

01:50:56.180 you know people have i had a friend who

01:51:00.180 just wrote an article about me and then

01:51:02.940 went on television to talk about me and

01:51:04.880 he was a good friend of mine and he came

01:51:06.520 out and he said that he thought that i

01:51:08.000 had become a dangerous person

01:51:09.360 and um which was somewhat shocking to me

01:51:13.580 because i had known him for a long time and

01:51:15.420 he was a someone i liked and still like for

01:51:18.820 that matter and uh you know when someone

01:51:22.620 says something like that and they've been

01:51:25.040 on your side and they're fundamentally a

01:51:28.280 thoughtful person then you should listen

01:51:30.440 but you know in my own defense i have been

01:51:35.380 listening there's lots of people who are

01:51:37.980 watching what i'm doing my family is watching

01:51:39.980 what i'm doing i have friends who are very

01:51:42.280 very smart and tough and mean and they're

01:51:45.500 watching what i'm doing and if i make a

01:51:47.420 mistake they bloody well tell me and they

01:51:49.420 don't pull any punches and i listen and so

01:51:52.200 i've been listening but i was listening to my

01:51:54.520 friend as well and i was thinking well okay

01:51:58.340 what's the evidence that he's right well and

01:52:02.140 the evidence that he's right is i suppose

01:52:04.680 that my sphere of influence if you want to

01:52:08.620 think of it that way has grown in a manner

01:52:12.760 that's surreal and incomprehensible and so

01:52:16.800 there's definitely danger associated with that

01:52:19.260 any reasonable person would understand that

01:52:21.980 but then you know there's this idea that you

01:52:25.940 get the fans that you deserve the fans i

01:52:29.060 don't like that word but we'll use it for

01:52:30.760 now i watched this this documentary once

01:52:33.660 about this guy named jeremy i don't remember

01:52:36.880 his name porn star they call him the the hedgehog

01:52:40.040 ron jeremy yeah and he said well you all got

01:52:44.580 that one yeah yeah yeah yeah that figures

01:52:47.140 yeah yeah so yeah so yeah so ron one of the

01:52:52.780 funniest things that ron jeremy almost said in

01:52:55.840 that documentary was that he was that he

01:52:59.640 he ended up being the hero he ended up being

01:53:02.440 hero to people who thought that ron jeremy was a

01:53:05.200 hero so i thought that was so funny it's like

01:53:08.480 that's a kind of hell to fall into man so he was in

01:53:11.420 that hell and so and then i so then i'm thinking

01:53:15.080 well how how are people reacting when i meet

01:53:17.620 them because maybe that's a bit of a

01:53:20.980 barometer that i can use to measure

01:53:23.980 the consequences of these discussions and

01:53:28.020 what i've been writing about and so forth and

01:53:30.100 so here's the situation that i'm in

01:53:32.880 if wherever i go now

01:53:35.540 um people come and talk to me

01:53:39.720 and they're it's always the same

01:53:42.320 you know they're they cut they approach and

01:53:45.620 they're very polite

01:53:46.760 and and hesitant you know they're

01:53:50.860 which is good because if you're if you're going to

01:53:53.980 approach someone you don't know you should be

01:53:55.660 that would be the optimal way to do it is to be polite and hesitant you know

01:53:58.960 because maybe you're bothering them and

01:54:00.320 and who knows what they're thinking about and all of that

01:54:03.200 but regardless that is what people do they're always polite and hesitant and

01:54:08.160 then they're very happy to see me

01:54:10.220 that's a good thing that's a good thing

01:54:12.840 if you're going around the world and there are strangers approaching you

01:54:16.140 and they're happy to see you that's a good thing

01:54:19.000 and then you know they tell me

01:54:21.800 one of the two things that i told you that people tell me at the beginning of

01:54:25.820 this talk they either say

01:54:27.020 thank you very much you've helped me find words to express and defend what i've

01:54:31.640 always known to be true

01:54:32.740 and so i'm thrilled to hear that it's like great

01:54:35.620 it's great to have someone tell you that you know

01:54:38.620 it's not just good it's great

01:54:40.940 and then the other thing that people say is

01:54:43.640 i was in a dark place you know

01:54:46.400 i was anxious depressed nihilistic drinking too much

01:54:50.000 um taking too many drugs wasn't getting along with my family didn't have any

01:54:55.840 you know they're in some local minima of hell

01:55:00.800 and they said well i've been listening to your lectures and

01:55:05.380 reading your book and i've been trying to develop a vision for my life

01:55:10.280 and i've been trying to take on more responsibility

01:55:12.120 i've been cleaning my room

01:55:13.720 and it's working

01:55:15.960 it's working things are way better

01:55:18.980 and you know sometimes they're with their father

01:55:21.520 and he's all thrilled about the fact that their relationship is better

01:55:24.560 or sometimes it's somebody with their mother

01:55:26.400 or it's two friends or

01:55:28.160 and they're smiling away telling me

01:55:30.480 and sometimes they have tears

01:55:31.800 that their things are way better

01:55:35.500 and so that's what's happening

01:55:36.780 is wherever i go in the world

01:55:38.640 people come up to me and they say

01:55:39.980 things are way better because i've been listening to what you've been saying

01:55:44.000 and so i don't think that's dangerous

01:55:47.020 i think that's good

01:55:49.220 and so what would i like to be when i grow up

01:55:52.540 i would like to have more of that happen

01:55:54.700 i'd like to have that happen everywhere

01:55:57.200 so what you're saying is

01:56:09.380 you want to be a porn star when you grow up

01:56:11.980 that was a pretty good kathy newman accent

01:56:18.760 she's joining us on the road after this

01:56:24.600 well i don't know that we can end it any better way than that

01:56:28.040 so i'm gonna get out of the way

01:56:29.460 give it up for jordan peterson everybody

01:56:31.700 consider picking up dad's latest book

01:56:35.400 12 rules for life an antidote to chaos

01:56:37.680 or his first book maps of meaning the architecture of belief

01:56:40.800 available in text ebook and audiobook format

01:56:43.880 wherever you buy books

01:56:45.120 next week you'll hear my lecture from the civic arts plaza

01:56:50.060 in thousand oaks california

01:56:51.900 i had greg herwitz an old friend of mine

01:56:54.500 and a very popular novelist and comic book writer

01:56:57.060 open for me

01:56:57.880 as dave rubin was unavailable

01:56:59.960 so that was interesting and new

01:57:01.920 i discussed the necessity of thinking

01:57:04.140 as simulation of action

01:57:05.720 of thinking as the ability to produce

01:57:08.220 new avatars of possible use

01:57:10.480 to try them out in the real world

01:57:12.660 to save and use those ones

01:57:14.800 that prove themselves functional

01:57:16.440 at least in imagination

01:57:17.600 and to let the ones that fail dismally

01:57:20.460 fade away and die

01:57:21.860 i talked about the necessity of imagining

01:57:24.400 thinking as tool production and use

01:57:27.100 as something deeply pragmatic

01:57:29.020 and tried to make the case

01:57:30.600 that clarity of thought

01:57:31.960 and precision of speech

01:57:33.600 therefore prepares people properly

01:57:35.960 for a less sorrow-filled

01:57:38.000 and mistake-ridden life

01:57:39.660 in the real world

01:57:40.620 as well as aiding meaning

01:57:42.520 and engagement

01:57:43.460 and productivity

01:57:44.440 and individual and collective responsibility

01:57:47.360 follow me on my youtube channel

01:57:50.160 jordanbpeterson

01:57:51.400 on twitter

01:57:52.340 at jordanbpeterson

01:57:53.980 on facebook

01:57:55.080 at drjordanbpeterson

01:57:57.300 and at instagram

01:57:58.320 at jordan.b.peterson

01:58:00.660 details on this show

01:58:02.500 access to my blog

01:58:04.160 information about my tour dates

01:58:06.260 and other events

01:58:07.080 and my list of recommended books

01:58:09.120 can be found on my website

01:58:10.840 jordanbpeterson.com

01:58:12.980 my online writing programs

01:58:15.000 designed to help people

01:58:16.300 straighten out their pasts

01:58:17.860 understand themselves in the present

01:58:19.760 and develop a sophisticated vision

01:58:21.740 and strategy for the future

01:58:23.140 can be found at selfauthoring.com

01:58:25.900 that's selfauthoring.com

01:58:28.400 from the Westwood One Podcast Network

01:58:32.200 and I'll see you next time

01:58:34.040 and I'll see you next time

01:58:35.100 at the end of the week

01:58:36.160 at the end of the week

The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast - April 21, 2019

12 Rules Sacramento： The Sovereignty of the Individual

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