The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast - 12 Rules Thousand Oaks： Truth in Speech, and Meaning

00:00:00.940 Hey everyone, real quick before you skip, I want to talk to you about something serious and important.

00:00:06.480 Dr. Jordan Peterson has created a new series that could be a lifeline for those battling depression and anxiety.

00:00:12.740 We know how isolating and overwhelming these conditions can be, and we wanted to take a moment to reach out to those listening who may be struggling.

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00:00:27.420 He provides a roadmap towards healing, showing that while the journey isn't easy, it's absolutely possible to find your way forward.

00:00:35.360 If you're suffering, please know you are not alone. There's hope, and there's a path to feeling better.

00:00:41.780 Go to Daily Wire Plus now and start watching Dr. Jordan B. Peterson on depression and anxiety.

00:00:47.460 Let this be the first step towards the brighter future you deserve.

00:00:57.420 Welcome to Season 2, Episode 6 of the Jordan B. Peterson Podcast.

00:01:03.060 I'm Michaela Peterson, Dr. Peterson's daughter and collaborator.

00:01:06.840 Today we're presenting Dad's lecture at the Civic Arts Plaza in Thousand Oaks, California, recorded on June 30th, 2018.

00:01:14.700 He discussed thinking as simulation of action, thinking as the ability to produce new avatars of the many possible sub-personalities that you could act out in the world,

00:01:23.960 so that you can embody those which might be useful and productive, and let the ones that come to a dismal end in imagination fade away, never to appear in the real world.

00:01:33.720 He talked about thinking as tool production and use, making the case that clarity of thought, equivalent to the creation of well-honed tools,

00:01:42.100 prepares people for a less sorrow-ridden and more meaningful and productive life.

00:01:46.740 So, Dad, what's been going on with you this week?

00:01:49.440 Well, I was in New York earlier, and I had a chance to talk to Ignat Solzhenitsyn, who's Alexander Solzhenitsyn's son.

00:01:58.680 And Solzhenitsyn, of course, is the author of the famous book, The Gulag Archipelago.

00:02:03.080 I wrote a foreword to that book, the abridged version, the 50th anniversary of the abridged version,

00:02:09.640 and the 100th anniversary of the centenary of Solzhenitsyn's birth.

00:02:13.200 And I recorded the audio version of that foreword for the audiobook in New York.

00:02:20.160 But I also had a chance to talk to Ignat about his experiences with his father, his experiences working on his books,

00:02:27.200 the effect that living in the shadow of his father and that book has had on his life,

00:02:32.980 and on some of the historical consequences of the publication of The Gulag Archipelago.

00:02:38.200 That'll all be additional material associated with the audio version of the abridged version of The Gulag Archipelago.

00:02:47.540 So, I'm hoping that that's all very useful.

00:02:50.280 I also spent a lot of time this week really doing the second edit,

00:02:55.060 before I hand this to my editors,

00:02:57.300 the second edit of Rules 21, 22, and 23 that will be included in my next book,

00:03:05.040 which will be a compilation of another 12 rules, the title and all of that has yet to be announced.

00:03:11.640 The rules are 21, if old memories still make you cry, write them down carefully and completely.

00:03:18.520 And that's a description of the necessity of keeping up with the trouble from your past.

00:03:24.080 You know, if you've run into trouble in your past, that means that you took a wrong turn in some sense,

00:03:29.740 even if it was someone else's fault, you know, you ended up in a territory that you shouldn't have been in,

00:03:35.500 and it's necessary to explain to yourself exactly how that happened and why,

00:03:40.120 so that you can avoid such things in the future.

00:03:42.620 That's the purpose of memory.

00:03:44.000 So, that's really the main function of that chapter.

00:03:47.300 Is it true that if you've had a traumatic experience,

00:03:51.280 you have to wait a certain amount of time before writing it out or you can relive it?

00:03:55.140 Yeah, well, the evidence I know of suggests that if you've had a traumatic experience,

00:03:59.560 that you should wait at least 18 months.

00:04:01.520 That's right, because all that might happen otherwise is that you re-traumatize yourself.

00:04:05.980 So, these are for older memories.

00:04:07.900 So, rule 22 is plan and work diligently to maintain the romance in your relationship.

00:04:13.020 It's a bit more of a tongue-in-cheek and a shorter chapter,

00:04:17.060 but it describes the necessity of consciously planning and negotiating with your partner,

00:04:23.720 preferably your wife or husband, although perhaps whoever you're in a long-term relationship with,

00:04:30.020 so that you can maintain the romantic and sexual element of your life in a high-quality manner,

00:04:37.260 so that the probability that your relationship will maintain itself and that there'll be pleasure in it

00:04:44.460 and the love that you need will be heightened and maintained.

00:04:52.260 And so, it's a pretty practical chapter.

00:04:54.840 And then 23 is be grateful in spite of your suffering.

00:04:59.820 And that's kind of self-explanatory, but it's an exploration of the idea that gratitude in particular

00:05:08.280 and thankfulness are actually forms of courage in the face of the existential trouble

00:05:15.100 that people necessarily face in life.

00:05:19.240 So, I also spent some time with my UK publishers discussing the impending release

00:05:25.200 of the paperback version of 12 Rules for Life in the Penguin Market.

00:05:29.820 For the international English community, that doesn't include Canada and the US.

00:05:36.020 The paperback will be released earlier in the UK.

00:05:39.180 We're using the theme,

00:05:40.800 you have a vital role to play in the unfolding destiny of the world.

00:05:44.440 What will it be?

00:05:45.720 And we're hoping that the paperback will be popular among people who couldn't afford

00:05:51.240 or were otherwise unwilling to purchase the hardcover book.

00:05:55.540 And I like paperbacks, especially Penguin paperbacks.

00:05:59.920 They have a great back catalogue, wonderful back catalogue.

00:06:02.680 It'll be really exciting for me, I would say, to have my book added to that list.

00:06:07.480 I'm going to the UK in early May to a conference, first in Oxford, and then to do a publicity tour

00:06:18.640 for the paperback, including a talk at the Apollo Theatre in London.

00:06:25.640 I believe there are still some tickets left for that.

00:06:28.260 They can be found at jordanbpeterson.com forward slash events if you're interested in that.

00:06:33.760 I should also mention that live stream tickets for the Slavoj Zizek debate on April 19th

00:06:40.340 are also available at the same site, jordanbpeterson.com forward slash events.

00:06:47.060 We thought that it was worth experimenting with the live stream to see if people

00:06:51.420 would like to participate in as live a manner as possible,

00:06:56.040 given electronic communication, in a debate of that sort.

00:06:59.680 And so we'll see how that goes.

00:07:01.520 But if you're interested in the tickets, that's where you can get them.

00:07:04.540 When we return, Dad's lecture at the Civic Arts Plaza in Thousand Oaks, California.

00:07:11.860 Please welcome my father, Dr. Jordan B. Peterson.

00:07:19.720 This is the last talk of the tour that I've been taking with my wife through the United States.

00:07:29.820 We've done, there was some smattering of European cities in there too.

00:07:33.960 We went to London and we went to Rikjevic, which was really very interesting.

00:07:38.080 I would highly recommend going there, by the way.

00:07:40.140 It's a very cool place.

00:07:41.220 Anyways, we've gone to 35 cities since May 3rd.

00:07:44.880 And this is where it ends for a couple of weeks.

00:07:47.240 I'm going to London again to talk to Sam Harris in Dublin and then in London.

00:07:51.980 But we get a bit of a break now.

00:07:53.780 And so part of this has come to an end and it's been really remarkable.

00:07:57.980 And so I thought what I would do to begin with is just reflect a little bit on what I've learned from doing this.

00:08:04.700 I've learned things from doing this because I use these opportunities to speak as an opportunity to learn.

00:08:11.000 And, you know, you learn partly by talking, but more importantly, you learn by engaging in dialogue with people.

00:08:17.220 And this is an extended dialogue.

00:08:19.900 You might think, well, how can you have a dialogue with a passive audience?

00:08:23.200 And the answer is audiences aren't passive by any stretch of the imagination.

00:08:27.880 First of all, you can see individual people in the audience and you can see if you're communicating with them.

00:08:33.000 Then you can hear the audience.

00:08:34.280 If they're rustling around and coughing and making noise, then you're not where you should be because everyone should be sitting silent and immersed in what's going on.

00:08:42.720 And you can tell when you're dealing with, wrestling with ideas.

00:08:46.560 If you're watching people, you can see if they're on board with the ideas.

00:08:49.860 And so, like, it really, if it's a good talk, it's a dialogue.

00:08:54.460 And so, and every time I have the chance to talk, I try to talk about, I wouldn't say different things exactly because it's variations on a theme, you know.

00:09:02.900 And there's only so much you can know, so you can't talk about something different every night.

00:09:07.220 But I use these lectures as an opportunity to hone my thinking.

00:09:12.740 And the reason that I do that is because, well, most fundamentally, because you should hone your thinking.

00:09:18.820 And, well, you know, it's funny.

00:09:21.020 It seems obvious, like, in fact, like so many things I say, I think are quite obvious.

00:09:25.320 But they don't seem to be obvious anymore.

00:09:27.520 But, you know, I often explain why obvious things are obvious.

00:09:36.420 And that's helpful to people because, and perhaps explaining why it's useful to hone your thinking is useful.

00:09:42.260 The reason you think is so that you prepare to act.

00:09:48.000 And you think out what you do before you do it, if you have any sense.

00:09:52.020 That's what thinking is for.

00:09:53.320 In fact, your prefrontal cortex, which is the part of your brain that mediates voluntary thought,

00:09:58.680 grew out of the motor cortex over the course of evolution.

00:10:02.100 And so animals act.

00:10:03.880 And they're smart, so they can act intelligently.

00:10:06.560 But human beings can formulate hypothetical actions before they implement them.

00:10:10.320 And, well, so then, what's the implication of that?

00:10:15.600 Well, you want to act stupidly?

00:10:18.440 That's the first question, is what happens if you act stupidly?

00:10:21.540 And that's easy.

00:10:22.680 A bunch of things happen.

00:10:23.880 You get hurt, or you get anxious.

00:10:26.340 And people around you get hurt and anxious.

00:10:28.760 And you don't do things very well.

00:10:31.100 And so that seems like not good, as far as, sort of like the definition of not good, in fact.

00:10:37.060 And so, then, hypothetically, you could rectify that.

00:10:41.040 By thinking.

00:10:42.140 But you'd have to think properly.

00:10:44.060 So then you should hone your thinking.

00:10:46.020 And so that's what I use these lectures to do.

00:10:48.540 Because I'm hoping that I can move out into the world with a more effective toolbox.

00:10:54.140 Because thoughts are tools.

00:10:56.740 And you use tools to act in the world.

00:10:58.700 And so this is always what I tell my students when I'm asking them to write.

00:11:02.520 Because I tell my undergraduate students, my graduate students as well,

00:11:05.500 don't write things you don't believe.

00:11:08.460 And I have lots of students now.

00:11:09.800 And this is one of the catastrophes of the academy.

00:11:12.780 I certainly saw this with my daughter's friends when she was going to a relatively, like,

00:11:18.020 a very left-leaning university in Montreal.

00:11:20.220 Her friends would talk to me from time to time and tell me that they had to write what the professor wanted them to write.

00:11:27.840 Or they wouldn't get a very good grade.

00:11:29.600 And the first thing I told them was, look, even if your professor is pretty ideologically addled,

00:11:33.660 and plenty of them are, then they have to be pretty damn far gone before they'll grade a decent essay badly

00:11:40.660 because they don't agree with it.

00:11:41.900 Now, some of them will.

00:11:42.740 But most of them still have some sense that there's something to the idea of quality independent of, say, political content.

00:11:52.740 So you have to have a pretty far-gone professor before they're really going to play that game on you.

00:11:56.560 But even more importantly, don't write what other people want to hear you say.

00:12:02.840 It's like, what the hell's wrong with you?

00:12:04.700 Well, they think, well, why not?

00:12:05.940 Why not do that?

00:12:06.720 Because after all, well, you have to get your grade.

00:12:09.340 And it's a practical issue.

00:12:10.780 You have to get your grade.

00:12:11.540 You have to get through the course.

00:12:13.000 Why not offer what's required?

00:12:16.120 And the answer to that is, well, you're trying to learn to think.

00:12:20.360 And the reason you think is so that you can act properly.

00:12:23.060 And the reason you can act properly is so that you don't suffer stupidly in your life any more than you need to.

00:12:28.780 Like, you're going to suffer.

00:12:29.960 There's no doubt about that.

00:12:31.400 But maybe you could suffer somewhat less and somewhat less stupidly if you didn't forsake your own words.

00:12:38.580 And you don't write down things you don't believe.

00:12:40.500 And you don't say things that aren't yours to say.

00:12:43.080 And the reason you don't do that is because it corrupts you.

00:12:46.360 And then when you act out that corruption, then you generate little pools of hell around you and within you.

00:12:51.620 And you don't do that.

00:12:53.940 And for students to go to a university and then think that that's what the university is demanding of them is an absolute, it's an, it's a, I don't even know what the right word is.

00:13:04.300 It's a sin.

00:13:05.020 It's an intellectual sin.

00:13:06.140 It's worse than that.

00:13:06.840 It's a moral sin to entice students into falsifying their words for the purpose of grades.

00:13:13.220 There's no excuse whatsoever for it.

00:13:15.820 So, because the word is a sacred thing.

00:13:17.660 No, it's sacred.

00:13:24.660 The word is a sacred thing because suffering matters.

00:13:28.080 And if you think carefully and properly and thoroughly, then you can reduce that.

00:13:33.420 And maybe you can also do some good.

00:13:35.100 You know, you can just not avoid harm.

00:13:37.300 That's something, man.

00:13:38.200 If you could just avoid undue harm, that would be something.

00:13:40.540 But maybe if you got your words together properly, you could go out and do some positive good for you and for your family and for your community.

00:13:47.980 And that's all dependent on the integrity of your word.

00:13:51.240 And so every chance you have to hone the integrity of your word, you should cling to like your life depends on it.

00:13:58.640 Because it does.

00:14:00.340 And so it's been a privilege to have these opportunities to speak to so many people because it gives me a chance to do that.

00:14:07.380 And then you think, well, why can't you just do that in the privacy of your own psyche, let's say.

00:14:12.500 You could just sit in the back room and think.

00:14:14.120 And the problem with that is, well, no, actually, there are real limitations to that.

00:14:18.680 Because each individual comes equipped or possessed by a set of biases as well as being bound terribly by their own ignorance.

00:14:28.860 Because we're all bound by our ignorance, our blind spots and all of that.

00:14:32.140 And our malevolence for that matter.

00:14:34.200 And you can't contend with that in isolation.

00:14:37.380 You can contend to some degree with that in isolation.

00:14:39.620 Because you can sit and think.

00:14:41.020 But it's much better to test your ideas out in the world against other people's biases and ignorances.

00:14:47.500 But also knowledge.

00:14:48.500 And so then you get the best of both worlds.

00:14:50.400 You can think through your thoughts and you can hone them.

00:14:52.840 And then you can provisionally test them out there in the world where you're going to have to act anyways.

00:14:56.560 And if they meet a receptive audience, and especially if they meet an audience that is also willingly engaged in the process of making the ideas better, then you can have some assurance, not complete, but some assurance that you're in the right place at the right time doing the right thing.

00:15:14.640 And you want to be in that place.

00:15:16.640 Well, you also want to be in that place because that's the most meaningful place to be.

00:15:21.340 So that's also something.

00:15:22.920 And the reason it's the most meaningful place to be is because it is the place of maximum adaptation.

00:15:29.420 Right?

00:15:29.580 That's why it's so easy to get engrossed in a great conversation.

00:15:32.060 And this is something I've come to realize quite deeply.

00:15:35.760 You're evolved.

00:15:37.100 This is how your brain functions.

00:15:38.900 Your brain functions to engage you meaningfully when you're doing the right thing at the right time.

00:15:44.900 And so you find a conversation particularly engaging.

00:15:47.620 It's because not only are you practicing what you already know and what you have developed expertise in.

00:15:53.000 So, you know, you're sort of glorying in your acquired ability.

00:15:56.000 But you're also expanding that ability outward at a rate that's optimized.

00:16:00.260 And that's what gives you that sense of meaning.

00:16:02.060 And that's a real thing.

00:16:03.460 It's the deepest instinct that you have in some sense manifesting itself saying you're doing everything you possibly can to put the structures around you into the proper musical-like balance.

00:16:15.860 And that's facilitating your movement through the world.

00:16:19.020 And that's something I've come to realize ever more clearly, I would say, over the last 30 years.

00:16:23.120 And I certainly would think of it as one of the most important things that I've come to realize is that that sense of meaning is not only a real thing,

00:16:31.320 but the most real thing, it's actually genuine, solid, it orients you in the world.

00:16:39.180 And rule seven is do what is meaningful and not what is expedient.

00:16:44.240 And it's a riff on that theme, essentially, that you have an instinct for meaning.

00:16:49.960 And it's not an epiphenomenon of something more real.

00:16:55.140 It's the most real thing.

00:16:56.980 It's the thing that your brain is adapted to produce.

00:17:00.580 And you can follow it.

00:17:01.880 You can have faith in it.

00:17:02.920 You can have faith in the meaning that manifests itself to you spontaneously.

00:17:06.520 But then rule eight says, yeah, but tell the truth or at least don't lie.

00:17:11.640 And the reason for that is that you don't want to pathologize the mechanism that guides you through life.

00:17:16.680 You know, if you have an instinct that's capable of manifesting itself as a guiding instinct,

00:17:23.640 the last thing you want to do is practice to warp it.

00:17:27.060 And that's what you do if you lie.

00:17:29.920 If you warp your words.

00:17:31.460 If you bend and twist them.

00:17:32.580 Especially if you do it habitually, because you build new neurological mechanisms when you develop a habit.

00:17:37.940 And that will twist and distort the manner in which the world manifests itself to you.

00:17:42.380 And then you're done.

00:17:44.100 Because it isn't even a matter of opinion.

00:17:46.240 It's worse than that.

00:17:47.500 You've actually warped the manner in which you perceive things.

00:17:51.260 It's far deeper than opinion.

00:17:53.020 And that becomes automatic.

00:17:54.280 You won't even be able to see it.

00:17:55.640 And so, well, that's why lying is a great sin, so to speak.

00:17:59.320 That's why so many religious traditions have an incredibly tight stricture against lying.

00:18:04.740 Don't practice what you don't want to become.

00:18:07.300 Think, well, why shouldn't I lie?

00:18:08.720 I can get what I want.

00:18:09.800 It's like, well, yeah, for the next minute.

00:18:12.700 But as a medium to long-term strategy, it's an utter catastrophe.

00:18:15.320 And not only because you can no longer rely on yourself ethically, because if you lie, well, then how can you trust yourself?

00:18:22.240 But because you build yourself the psychic substructure of someone who's deceitful.

00:18:27.320 In which case you cannot rely on yourself even when you need to.

00:18:30.680 And, of course, you're going to wreak havoc on the people around you as well, just as a catastrophic, you know, side consequence.

00:18:36.460 So that's also terrible.

00:18:38.540 So, well, so that's what I've been using these talks for.

00:18:42.680 And then one of the things that I've been thinking about, I learned a couple of things, as I said on this tour.

00:18:47.880 One of them is why, I think I figured out why you're all here.

00:18:52.140 I don't mean in some cosmic sense.

00:18:54.620 Well, you're all here in some cosmic sense to set the suffering world right.

00:18:59.300 So that's, and that's the theme that runs through my first book, Maps of Meaning, and also Twelve Rules for Life.

00:19:04.120 But that's what you're here for, as far as I can tell.

00:19:06.360 And I think you all know that, too.

00:19:07.700 Because when you do what you can to set the suffering right, then you've accomplished something that you can take, I wouldn't say pride in, you can take solace in.

00:19:18.240 You know, that despite the conditions of your miserable existence and all of your insufficiencies, that you are still able to stumble forward with some degree of nobility and make things less terrible than they might have been.

00:19:29.580 That's something, and that does, well, look, look, man, if you're a flawed creature with a proclivity towards malevolence, you should aim low.

00:19:43.180 And not making anything any worse than you could have, that's a good start.

00:19:48.840 And that would be, as everyone knows.

00:19:51.760 So, so, so, so, so, um, I, I, so, why you're here in the more proximal sense, the question that I've been trying to figure out, because I've been trying to make sense of what's been happening around me, because, you know, I've spoken, as I said, the total number of cities now is about 52, I think.

00:20:09.740 And the average audience size has been approximately this, and this is 2,500 to 3,000 people.

00:20:15.100 And so, I'm thinking, what the hell's going on here?

00:20:18.000 Why are you people all coming out to hear a psychology professor talk about, really, intellectual ideas?

00:20:25.880 And I would say, in some sense, obscure intellectual ideas.

00:20:28.820 It's like, what, why, no one was doing this five years ago, or ever.

00:20:34.800 And so, something, something's changed.

00:20:40.420 And then I saw that even a more, what would you say, curious example of this, when I was in Vancouver on the 24th and 25th of this month, I was there talking to Sam Harris about the distinction between facts and values, or the relationship between science and religion, or the relationship between facts and stories, depends on how you carve it up.

00:20:59.820 And it was a pretty intense discussion, and I would say it had approximately the same level of intellectual complexity as a pretty decent PhD thesis defense in the field of psychology, when the PhD candidate is actually really capable of defending their thesis.

00:21:18.680 And so, it was a little different than a PhD defense, because Sam was defending his position, and I was defending my position, and so, there was a dual element to it, both D-U-A-L and D-U-E-L, and I suppose that heightened the tension to some degree.

00:21:33.640 But what was so interesting, well, there were three things that were interesting.

00:21:36.740 The first was, that the event ever happened.

00:21:40.120 I guess there was four.

00:21:40.980 Just the mere fact that the event happened was really quite unfathomable.

00:21:45.580 The second was, we were only supposed to speak to each other for an hour, and then we were supposed to go to Q&A for an hour, and when we got into the conversation an hour in, we were right in the thick of it, let's say, and we asked the audience if they wanted to go to Q&A, or if they wanted us to continue the discussion, and the overwhelming response was, continue the discussion, and we talked for two and a half hours, and so that was night one, and then we did the same thing in night two, and I thought, wow, this is really weird.

00:22:13.840 It's like there's 3,000 people out here, and they're participating in a high-level intellectual discussion, focusing on the fundamental nature of morality, and it's a back and forth.

00:22:24.240 There's no cheap victory at hand for either of us, because we were trying to extend our knowledge substantively.

00:22:30.320 The audience was dead on board for that, and we went overtime, and it worked spectacularly well.

00:22:35.480 And then it worked, I mean, as an event, you know, I'm not commenting on necessarily the quality of the discussion, although I certainly believe that I honed my arguments as a consequence of the discussion, and I think Sam felt the same way, so that was a great success from an intellectual and, let's say, moral perspective.

00:22:53.540 But I was thinking, well, what in the world's going on? Why are people coming out to these events?

00:22:58.800 And I've really been thinking about that, because something strange is happening.

00:23:04.040 First of all, the space for public intellectual engagement seems to be opening up.

00:23:08.160 Harris is obviously capitalizing on that, so to speak, and so am I, and I've talked to about 150,000 people now, which is a lot of people.

00:23:15.640 And I'd like to, you know, maybe the narrowly egotistical part of myself, which isn't a part that I'm particularly thrilled about, and I don't think has a tremendous amount of sway over me, would like to say, well, there must be something remarkable about you.

00:23:30.040 And, well, I mean, it's tempting to think that, right?

00:23:33.900 It's tempting to think that.

00:23:35.040 And, I mean, I'm a reasonably engaging lecturer, and I've thought about a lot of things, but you have to, if you have any sense, and this is actually one thing you learn as an experimental psychologist, is you never attribute to a personality what you can attribute to a situation.

00:23:47.840 You start with a situational analysis first.

00:23:50.320 It's the proper, it's the proper, well, analytic approach.

00:23:54.560 And so I say, well, I'm not going to attribute this to me, and I'm not going to attribute it to Sam, because something similar is happening to him.

00:24:00.860 And there's a handful of other people, including the people on the so-called intellectual dark web, like Joe Rogan, who's pulling in.

00:24:07.880 I've got to tell you, yeah, yeah, well, so that's it, exactly.

00:24:12.680 Rogan, so I just want to throw out some numbers here, because it's quite staggering and incomprehensible, really.

00:24:18.540 The last time I saw Rogan, I asked him, so, how many downloads do you get in a month, Joe?

00:24:24.440 Podcast downloads, because that's about ten times the market of YouTube, hey?

00:24:28.020 So there's YouTube, which is big, but there's podcasts, and that's, like, immense and invisible in some sense.

00:24:34.320 150 million podcast downloads a month.

00:24:38.180 Right, so it's one point, it's more than 1.5 billion a year, you think.

00:24:42.660 I think Joe Rogan is the most powerful interviewer who's ever lived.

00:24:46.080 And he might be the most powerful interviewer who's ever lived by an order of magnitude.

00:24:50.680 And so I asked him, well, what do you think about being the most powerful interviewer that ever lived?

00:24:55.520 And he said, I try not to think about it.

00:24:58.340 And, which, because how do you make sense out of that?

00:25:01.400 And so he has the same problem in some sense, perhaps on a larger scale, than I do.

00:25:06.260 It's like, well, what the hell's going on here?

00:25:08.380 And so I've really been trying to think that through, because I think it's important.

00:25:11.540 And here's what I've concluded.

00:25:13.040 I think that we're smarter than we thought, all of us.

00:25:17.200 Or at least a large proportion of us are smarter than we thought.

00:25:20.960 We're smarter than our technology allowed us to understand.

00:25:25.120 And so I got clued into this, because Dave Rubin was interviewing Sam Harris on his show.

00:25:30.660 And Sam talked about using the classic television media.

00:25:33.700 And he said, look, if he goes on CNN, say, to lay out a point, and if he's a really popular guest,

00:25:40.180 he'll go on John Anderson, let's say.

00:25:41.780 And the network will trip over themselves to open up space for him, because they want him to come on the show.

00:25:47.940 And they'll grant him six minutes.

00:25:52.800 Right.

00:25:53.360 And that's an overwhelming amount of time.

00:25:55.860 Right.

00:25:56.140 It's usually 15 seconds or 30 seconds.

00:25:58.940 And so then the question is, well, how smart are you when I can only communicate with you in 30-second bites,

00:26:05.260 with the possibility of radical extension under extreme circumstances to six minutes?

00:26:10.340 How smart am I going to sound?

00:26:13.360 And how smart am I going to think you are when I have to carve my message into something that will pass through that narrow bandwidth?

00:26:20.360 And the answer might be, well, I'm not going to think you're very smart at all,

00:26:23.820 because what kind of message, what kind of complex message can I deliver when the best shot I ever have at it is six minutes?

00:26:31.080 I'm going to have to make it simple enough to fit into six minutes.

00:26:34.860 And not only to fit into six minutes, but to be entertaining in the way the TV has to be.

00:26:40.220 I've been on the podcast shows, and I've been on TV talk shows, and TV talk shows are weird.

00:26:46.220 They're weird.

00:26:48.260 They're way weirder than they look when you watch them.

00:26:51.200 Because, you see, when you're sitting backstage with the people that are on the talk show, assuming there's a panel,

00:26:57.820 everybody's got a lot of energy up, because they're each only going to have six minutes distributed across the 45 minutes

00:27:04.400 to sort of show that they're not pathetic losers, you know?

00:27:08.860 And so, and then the format itself turns you into something approximating an entertainer.

00:27:15.920 Because, well, you can't just sit there and be dull, and you can't get 30 seconds into a 10-minute explanation

00:27:22.800 and then get cut off, because you just look like a bumbling moron in that situation.

00:27:27.260 And so, you have to become kind of facile and light and witty and with it, and that produces a degeneration in the...

00:27:34.840 I mean, it's better than being boring and dull, perhaps, but it produces a degeneration in the discourse.

00:27:40.300 But the technology itself imposes that on the discourse.

00:27:44.720 It's Marshall McLuhan, the Canadian...

00:27:47.040 The famous Canadian intellectual from the 60s said,

00:27:50.180 The medium is the message.

00:27:51.520 And what he meant by that was, make no mistake, the technology forces a particular kind of discourse on you.

00:27:58.780 And so, we've had this discourse forced on us by technology.

00:28:02.400 Television in particular.

00:28:03.500 And it's a very narrow bandwidth discourse.

00:28:05.840 Well, all of a sudden, that's gone.

00:28:07.880 No bandwidth limitations.

00:28:09.680 No access limitations either.

00:28:11.960 Anyone can make a YouTube video, and you can put it up that day.

00:28:14.900 And so, here's what YouTube has done.

00:28:17.160 The net, really.

00:28:17.940 But in terms of...

00:28:19.660 Insofar as that it's been now used for video, as the bandwidth of the net has increased.

00:28:25.060 We can use video.

00:28:26.140 We can use video and audio.

00:28:27.800 Okay, so what's happened?

00:28:29.260 The bandwidth requirement is gone.

00:28:31.580 Poof!

00:28:32.220 Joe Rogan.

00:28:32.920 Three-hour interviews.

00:28:33.960 No problem.

00:28:35.120 Turns out that people will follow that.

00:28:36.940 So, that's pretty cool.

00:28:38.040 It's like, you have...

00:28:38.940 It turns out you have an attention span.

00:28:40.880 Who the hell knew?

00:28:43.120 Right, and you hear, well, millennials, they have no attention span because of computer technology.

00:28:47.940 It's like, uh, no.

00:28:50.540 Turns out they have three-hour attention span for incredibly complex political discussion.

00:28:55.820 Well, about a wide variety of topics.

00:28:58.560 So, that's pretty interesting.

00:29:00.120 And then, then you take the video and you think, well, you can extract audio out of that.

00:29:04.380 Now you can make a podcast.

00:29:05.720 It's like, oh, well, that's interesting too because for a bunch of reasons.

00:29:09.000 Here's some of them.

00:29:10.320 Here's a thought.

00:29:11.720 What if more people can listen than can read?

00:29:15.160 Right?

00:29:15.420 Not that many people can read.

00:29:16.860 I mean, I know you all can read.

00:29:18.380 But not really.

00:29:19.980 Not really.

00:29:21.140 Very few people buy books.

00:29:23.040 And a small fraction of the people that buy books buy complex non-fiction.

00:29:26.780 So, it's a small fraction of people who read enough so they will actually buy books.

00:29:31.300 But maybe that's because reading at that level is actually prohibitively difficult.

00:29:36.300 And it is.

00:29:36.820 Like, remember, we've only been reading silently as a species.

00:29:39.960 We've only been reading silently in any numbers for 500 years at the absolute outside.

00:29:46.080 And really 100 years for all intents and purposes.

00:29:49.160 It's new.

00:29:50.520 But we've been listening forever.

00:29:52.700 And it's certainly possible that we're way better at listening than we are at reading.

00:29:55.800 So, maybe it's the case that there's 10 times the market for listening that there is for reading.

00:30:01.080 So, that would be cool.

00:30:02.560 And then you can listen quickly because you can speed up the listening.

00:30:05.940 So, that's a real cool technology and a revolution as well.

00:30:08.740 Because you can ramp up the rate at which you absorb information.

00:30:11.880 So, that's very interesting.

00:30:13.000 And here's another thing that's of crucial importance.

00:30:15.580 That's a technological revolution.

00:30:17.040 You spend maybe an hour and a half a day doing relatively boneheaded, necessary things.

00:30:23.520 Doing the dishes, going for a walk, exercising, commuting.

00:30:27.600 You know, things that are of vital importance.

00:30:30.280 But they don't occupy you fully.

00:30:33.000 You could do something else while you were doing them.

00:30:35.820 But if you're driving, you can't read.

00:30:38.000 And you can't watch a video.

00:30:39.760 But you can listen to a podcast.

00:30:42.180 So, what does that mean?

00:30:43.020 And it means, hey, all of a sudden, there's 90 minutes a day in everyone's life where they could do something complex and long form.

00:30:51.260 And so, what's happened?

00:30:52.920 Right away, everyone's doing it.

00:30:54.680 So, hooray for us.

00:30:55.660 We're smarter than we think.

00:30:56.980 And you might think, we're smarter than our technology had heretofore revealed to us.

00:31:02.640 And we're hungrier for high-level discourse than we knew.

00:31:05.920 And thank God for that, because we need some high-level discourse, because we've got some bad political polarization problems besetting us at the moment that need to be dealt with.

00:31:16.000 But even more, crucially, in some sense, things are changing really, really fast.

00:31:21.040 And the rate at which they're changing is increasing.

00:31:23.540 And so, we're going to have to stay on top of that.

00:31:25.840 And that's not an easy thing.

00:31:27.200 And maybe, because we can now engage in long-form, complex discourse, we have a better chance of staying on top of the technological transformations.

00:31:36.380 So, this has made me feel, laying this all out, has made me feel a lot more optimistic.

00:31:41.140 First of all, it's put what's been happening to me in a context.

00:31:43.760 It's like, oh, I see.

00:31:44.820 This is a side effect, in some sense, of a more profound technological revolution.

00:31:49.760 And that's the video and audio on-demand revolution, which I would say is equivalent to a second Gutenberg revolution.

00:31:57.440 Gutenberg invented the printing press.

00:31:59.280 This is the printing press for the spoken word.

00:32:02.900 And that might be, so for, that's the other thing.

00:32:05.280 For the first time in human history, the spoken word has as much or more reach and permanence as the written word.

00:32:13.380 It's like, that's an absolute revolution.

00:32:15.700 And so, I think this is a relatively small side effect of that revolution.

00:32:21.160 And that's a relief to me, because it puts it in context.

00:32:23.440 And so, I can think, well, I was in the right place at the right time, to some degree, and I'm capitalizing on this technology.

00:32:29.140 But, you know, a huge part of this is the technology itself, in some sense, finding its voice.

00:32:35.220 So, that's quite cool.

00:32:36.920 And then, I would say, when you're trying to see if a proposition is true, one of the things you do is you look for additional, well, often, counter-examples.

00:32:44.640 But, in this case, I'm going to use additional evidence from a different domain.

00:32:48.820 So, think about what happened when Netflix blew the bandwidth limitations off drama.

00:32:54.120 It's like, everybody thought, oh, man, you're lucky if you can get that audience of dimwits out there to concentrate for 20 minutes on a light-hearted sitcom.

00:33:03.160 And you better provide them with a laugh track so they have enough sense to know when something's funny.

00:33:07.160 You know, and maybe you can really push your damn limit and you can get them to sit and watch an hour-and-a-half movie if the plot isn't too complex.

00:33:15.280 You know, which is kind of the standard routine for television movies.

00:33:19.280 And then, we blew the bandwidth limitations off on-demand drama.

00:33:23.080 And what are you guys demanding?

00:33:24.980 It's like 40 hours of solid, complex drama, right?

00:33:29.340 With a multitude of characters.

00:33:31.440 Like, there have been plots that have been derived since the 1960s in the radical increase in narrative complexity as television has developed.

00:33:39.160 And it's, well, especially in the last five or six years that, you know, I would say that there has been a series of shows

00:33:44.880 whose narrative complexity starts to approach that of great literature.

00:33:49.200 You know, and people are dead, starving for that.

00:33:52.140 And they'll binge on it for, like, you know, you'll sit there for, like, three days and just watch it like mad.

00:33:57.920 It's like, not only do you have an attention span, it's way longer than anybody would have possibly imagined.

00:34:05.080 And it's so powerful that you can actually monetize it.

00:34:08.280 And so, it's a real thing.

00:34:09.940 And so, hooray for us.

00:34:11.020 That's one thing I've learned on this tour is we are smarter than we thought.

00:34:15.800 So, yes.

00:34:16.640 And, you know, and it's not just smart either.

00:34:24.580 It's also wise.

00:34:25.720 Because the other thing that's happening, and you see this, this is another thing that characterizes these IDW types, as far as I can tell.

00:34:31.880 And Rogan, again, is a good example.

00:34:33.800 You don't know at the beginning of one of his podcasts where he's going to go.

00:34:37.600 It's really a journey, you know.

00:34:39.440 It isn't like he's sitting around thinking, okay, well, here's how I want to manipulate you into thinking.

00:34:44.360 I've got an ideological framework that I'm going to impose on you, and I'm going to craft the narrative.

00:34:48.900 You see this happening in the mainstream media all the time.

00:34:51.480 It's like, they take it, they've done this to me, although I've had lots of good journalists cover me, by the way.

00:34:56.520 But many times, NBC was the worst at this, by the way, just to name someone.

00:35:01.160 And they had some real strong contenders for worse, I'll tell you.

00:35:11.940 So it was the worst of a bad bunch.

00:35:14.300 They came up to my house and did a 70-minute interview with me that was quite rude and pushy.

00:35:19.200 And then they collapsed it to a three-minute trailer that bore no resemblance whatsoever to what I was saying,

00:35:27.060 except that the words had been taken from the interview.

00:35:30.800 Because they edited it and cut it and edited it and cut it.

00:35:33.660 And so there was this a priori story that had to be told,

00:35:37.100 and I was just the means by which that story was going to be propagated.

00:35:40.580 And it was, really, it was appalling.

00:35:42.060 But, you know, people took it apart on YouTube and compared it with the actual interview.

00:35:46.220 And I don't think it did NBC any good whatsoever.

00:35:49.840 In fact, I think it sped up their inevitable demise by, you know, a tenth of a percent or something.

00:35:56.140 So...

00:35:56.620 So, but with people who are using this long form properly, they're taking you along on a journey.

00:36:08.800 And to take someone along on a journey is actually the hallmark of true intellectual engagement.

00:36:13.780 Moral intellectual engagement.

00:36:15.620 You see that with a great novelist.

00:36:17.520 For example, this is why Ayn Rand is not a novelist in the same league as Dostoevsky.

00:36:23.540 So, I like reading her books, by the way.

00:36:25.360 They really carried me along, especially when I was a teenager.

00:36:28.580 And I read them after that as well.

00:36:31.540 And she's got a narrative gift, there's no doubt about it.

00:36:33.820 But all her good people are the same person.

00:36:36.040 And all her bad people are the same person.

00:36:37.800 And they're all different people.

00:36:40.280 You know, so you might be the good guy and you might be the bad guy in an Ayn Rand novel.

00:36:44.100 And you're bad and you're good.

00:36:46.000 Whereas in a real novel, let's say, in a work of literature, it's like you're a mixture of bad and good.

00:36:52.040 And so is everyone else.

00:36:53.440 And so, and then there isn't an ideological framework that's being validated by the story.

00:36:59.400 There's an investigation of a profound moral problem.

00:37:02.100 And the author doesn't know how the investigation is going to go until he's finished or she is finished writing the book.

00:37:08.360 And so you see that in Dostoevsky, for example.

00:37:10.460 He sets himself a moral problem like, well, what is the significance of murder?

00:37:15.200 Or are there conditions under which it might be justified?

00:37:17.720 That's a real question because it's a complex question.

00:37:20.840 And then crime and punishment, for example, is an investigation of that question.

00:37:25.100 And Dostoevsky didn't know the answer before he started writing the book.

00:37:28.620 And so real intellectual engagement is, you're along for the ride, man.

00:37:32.440 And we don't know where we're going.

00:37:33.900 And that's partly what I'm trying to do in my lectures as well.

00:37:37.060 And so now the second thing that I've learned, I hope, is to have honed my arguments better.

00:37:42.240 And we'll see about that because I'm going to, now that I've introduced this,

00:37:45.480 I'm going to lay out some of the condensed versions of what I've learned over the last, say, 50 lectures.

00:37:52.240 So I'll walk through that 12 rules and we'll see how that goes.

00:37:56.480 And I've been trying to both make my arguments tighter and more concise, right?

00:38:02.780 So sort of pack more punch per word, let's say, and for each of the rules, because there's 12 of them.

00:38:09.900 And then also to see if I could tie the rules together in an overarching narrative that made them coherent as a unit.

00:38:16.920 Now, I tried to do that in the book, right?

00:38:18.780 Because that's why it's a book and not just a collection of essays.

00:38:22.120 You know, each essay was designed to stand on its own.

00:38:24.840 But each essay was also designed to fit into a meta-narrative that was informed by the relationship between all of the chapters.

00:38:33.820 You do that when you write.

00:38:35.060 You know, when I grade students' essays.

00:38:37.160 So you might think, well, where's the meaning in an essay?

00:38:40.200 Well, it's in the words.

00:38:41.700 It's like, well, no, no, no, no, wait a second.

00:38:43.640 It's way more complicated than that.

00:38:45.400 Well, it's in the letters because they make up the words.

00:38:47.860 And then it's in the words.

00:38:48.780 And then it's in the phrases.

00:38:50.400 And then it's in the way the phrases are arranged into sentences.

00:38:53.040 And then it's in the way the sentences are arranged into paragraphs.

00:38:56.100 And then it's in the way the paragraphs are sequenced.

00:38:58.720 And then it's in the way, if it's a multi-essay book, then it's in the way the essays are sequenced in the book.

00:39:04.700 The meaning is in all of those levels simultaneously.

00:39:08.100 Which is why translating is so difficult.

00:39:10.300 Literal translation.

00:39:11.660 It's like, literal at what level of analysis?

00:39:15.280 Literal word by word?

00:39:16.400 Then it's awkward as hell.

00:39:18.100 Literal phrase by phrase?

00:39:20.020 You lose a lot of the poetics there.

00:39:21.760 Sentence by sentence?

00:39:23.120 Or do you take the gist of the paragraph and try to convey that?

00:39:27.340 Very complicated.

00:39:28.880 Just as complicated as trying to make sense out of a book.

00:39:31.620 Of course, then the meaning is also in your relationship with the book.

00:39:35.640 Because you're going to bring an a priori framework to the book.

00:39:38.940 And the meaning is actually a consequence of the framework that you believe interacting with all those levels of meaning in the book.

00:39:45.340 So when I grade students' essays, generally what I do is I say, well, you know, your essay succeeded as a whole in that I got the idea.

00:39:53.720 But, like, the paragraph level sequencing was dreadful.

00:39:57.080 You know, you can't string sentences together coherently in a paragraph.

00:40:02.120 Your phrasing is awkward and unpoetic.

00:40:04.280 And you use words that you don't understand to look smarter than you are, which might work for people who are stupider than you, but doesn't work very well for people who can see what you're doing.

00:40:14.400 And so the point is that you can do a critical analysis at all of those levels, right?

00:40:19.380 And also the point is that when you write and when you speak, all of those levels of analysis simultaneously are of equal importance.

00:40:28.380 And it's very hard to get that whole structure right, right?

00:40:32.580 Right from the word up to the gist of the entire conversation itself.

00:40:37.660 I would say, here's an interesting thing.

00:40:39.820 It's another thing I tell students when they're trying to write.

00:40:42.360 How can you tell if you've got that right?

00:40:45.260 Or even more importantly, because you'll never get it perfectly right.

00:40:49.040 How can you tell if you're on the pathway to get that right?

00:40:51.980 And I would say, you're compelled and engaged by what you're writing.

00:40:56.720 And that's another indication of the manifestation of that instinct for meaning.

00:41:00.420 I told my students over and over, if your essay bores you, just imagine what it's doing to me.

00:41:11.620 Right.

00:41:12.320 And so, and this is something really worth knowing.

00:41:14.720 Because if you're working on something, I don't really care what it is.

00:41:17.340 If you're bored by it, there's a lie somewhere in there.

00:41:21.860 There's a lie somewhere.

00:41:23.320 Because the question is, why the hell are you doing it if you don't find it meaningful?

00:41:26.940 And you might say, well, because I have to.

00:41:28.580 It's like, maybe, maybe we should take a really close look at what you mean when you say to yourself, I have to.

00:41:36.200 Because you're, if you find what you're doing dull and uninteresting, then a bunch of you is not on board with it.

00:41:43.420 That's the evidence.

00:41:44.260 That's the, you know what that's like.

00:41:45.800 Like, if you're not engaged by what you're doing, you have to beat yourself with a stick in order to get you to do it.

00:41:50.800 You have to play the tyrant in order to get you to concentrate.

00:41:54.260 Say, well, I can't concentrate on this task.

00:41:56.820 I can't concentrate on this essay.

00:41:58.420 It's then, well, then the value system that you've structured at all those levels of analysis that we just described isn't set up right.

00:42:06.120 There's something that you're doing wrong.

00:42:08.140 With my students, I would say, well, if you're bored by your essay, then you picked the wrong topic.

00:42:12.140 You should pick something that's so gripping that you can barely stand writing about it.

00:42:17.640 Right?

00:42:18.080 And then it's worth the effort.

00:42:19.620 And I would say, well, that's the same thing that you should do in your life.

00:42:22.460 Is you should pick something that interests you so much that you can barely stand it.

00:42:26.920 And that will grip you.

00:42:28.440 And it's in that grip that you find the meaning of life.

00:42:32.040 And this is something that I've been trying to offer to people as a hypothesis.

00:42:38.560 Another thing that I've learned.

00:42:40.240 So, you know, a motif that runs through Maps of Meaning and also Twelve Rules for Life is a description of the fundamental realities of existence, let's say.

00:42:50.260 And that isn't a theory about the materialist substrate of the world.

00:42:54.020 That's a different domain as far as I'm concerned.

00:42:56.140 It's a, this is a more existential idea or a more phenomenological idea.

00:43:00.700 It's an analysis of life as it's experienced.

00:43:05.300 What's the fundamental reality of life as experienced or one of the fundamental realities?

00:43:09.680 And the reality is the reality of suffering.

00:43:12.980 That's a classic religious proclamation.

00:43:15.520 Right?

00:43:15.780 The first noble truth of Buddhism is that life is suffering.

00:43:18.360 You see the intense suffering of life expressed in Judaism.

00:43:22.060 And, of course, in Christianity, the central symbol of Christianity is an agonized crucifixion.

00:43:27.860 And so, that's putting something right in front of your face, you know.

00:43:31.300 It's an agonized crucifixion brought about by malevolence and betrayal.

00:43:34.900 So, it's even worse.

00:43:35.900 Or, it's even worse than that.

00:43:37.400 It's an agonized crucifixion brought about by malevolence and betrayal.

00:43:41.400 Perpetrated on someone who's innocent.

00:43:43.040 So, it's sort of like, it's an archetype of tragedy and catastrophe.

00:43:47.920 And it's put forward as the basic reality of life.

00:43:51.280 It's like, well, what do you have as an antidote to that?

00:43:54.740 And what you have is the sense of meaningful engagement in life.

00:43:59.260 That's what lifts you out of that.

00:44:00.900 And you know that because now and then you're doing something and you think, you experience.

00:44:05.880 You don't think.

00:44:06.500 You experience the sense that that was deeply worthwhile.

00:44:09.960 You think, well, what do you mean?

00:44:11.420 And you mean something like, despite the fact that life is fundamentally a tragic catastrophe that's tainted by malevolence.

00:44:18.440 That manifested itself as worth doing.

00:44:22.700 And you know, there's a bunch of things that you do that are like that.

00:44:25.360 It's like that when you love someone.

00:44:27.820 You know, like a parent or a child.

00:44:29.720 You know, they have their bounded, fragile existence.

00:44:32.180 And all of their flaws, all of that.

00:44:34.160 And the fact is, you're still happy they're around.

00:44:36.780 Right?

00:44:37.000 So, that's a deep judgment.

00:44:38.320 Love is very interesting that way.

00:44:39.720 Especially with family members.

00:44:41.280 Because you know their foibles.

00:44:42.720 And you know their insufficiencies and all of that.

00:44:45.980 And yet, you're still, you still grieve when they die.

00:44:50.200 And you think, well, what does that mean?

00:44:51.500 It means that, well, you've made a judgment at the deep level of your being that despite the insufficiency of their existence, it was better that they existed than that they didn't exist.

00:45:00.980 Because otherwise, you wouldn't grieve, you'd have a party that they weren't, it's thank God he finally died.

00:45:06.500 Better for him and better for everyone else, you know.

00:45:09.360 And, but that isn't what you do.

00:45:11.120 And, you know, and even if it's a person that you've had a contentious relationship with in your family, you'll see that when they die, some of the things that you thought of as faults, and maybe that even were faults, are part and parcel of that thing that you loved.

00:45:25.080 And so that is a deep judgment about the validity of being.

00:45:28.380 And so that's a meaningful act of engagement.

00:45:30.940 And you know that, because the close relationships that you make in life, the intimate relationships genuinely sustain you.

00:45:38.180 If you talk to people who are terribly nihilistic and depressed, they're often also extremely isolated, right?

00:45:44.240 It's not only that they're hopeless, it's that they don't have anyone.

00:45:48.280 They don't have a friend.

00:45:49.620 I've had lots of clients who had no family and no friends.

00:45:52.980 And like, never had any friends.

00:45:56.000 And sometimes, essentially, never had any family.

00:45:59.060 Jesus, rough, man.

00:46:00.400 It's very difficult to orient yourself in the world without those fundamental connections.

00:46:04.880 And so you value them, and you find them intrinsically meaningful.

00:46:08.240 And that's despite the catastrophe of life.

00:46:10.600 And then, so that's a good, that's an interesting thing, because it shows you that there are spontaneous, there are spontaneous involvements in life that lift you out of the malaise.

00:46:22.540 And certainly, the love that you have for the people that you love is one of those things.

00:46:27.160 It's certainly the case.

00:46:28.620 And it's like, no one ever says, well, I just have too many people that I love.

00:46:32.540 No one says that.

00:46:34.140 You can say, I have all the friends I can stand, which is a different thing.

00:46:38.860 But you don't say, well, you know, there's just too many people around here that I love.

00:46:43.220 That's just not a problem.

00:46:44.760 So, so, so, so that's a good thing.

00:46:46.640 And you love the people despite their insufficiency and their vulnerability, or maybe even because of it.

00:46:51.360 Because I've thought that about my own children, especially when they were little, because they're vulnerable as hell, you know.

00:46:55.880 And you think, oh, it would be good if they're not so vulnerable.

00:46:58.000 But you think, well, wait a second.

00:46:59.740 Is their charm, the vulnerability that's so intense is part of their charm.

00:47:05.340 It's like, you get rid of the vulnerability, you get rid of the person.

00:47:07.740 And that's not helpful.

00:47:09.500 And so, what that means is that you can find yourself in situations where you observe something as of transcendent value despite its subjugation to tragedy and malevolence.

00:47:21.140 And so, that's worth noting.

00:47:23.140 Because if you start with the a priori assumption that life is suffering, tainted by malevolence, that can be very pessimistic.

00:47:30.020 And that can take you down a very nihilistic road.

00:47:32.600 And it's incontrovertibly true at some level.

00:47:35.040 And so, then you think, that's why we never talk about it.

00:47:37.440 But then you think, well, wait a second.

00:47:39.400 If there are things that lift you out of that, and not because you're rationalizing them, but because when you experience them, they lift you out of that.

00:47:47.380 Then you think, well, wait a second.

00:47:48.420 That means that there are things that are more powerful, that manifest themselves in the confines of your life, more powerful than death and suffering and evil.

00:47:56.480 And so, I've taken a very close look at all of the things I didn't want to take a close look at.

00:48:01.260 And based on the alchemical dictum of Jung, in Sturquilinus Invinitur, which is, what you most need will be found where you least want to look.

00:48:12.040 It's like, so you look at the darkest possible place, and the strange thing is, is that's where you discover the light.

00:48:19.000 You contend with how terrible the world is.

00:48:21.160 You find out what is exactly that terrible, but there's something in you that beckons to you to adopt a mode of being that transcends that.

00:48:30.100 And that you can do that.

00:48:31.680 And what that means is that no matter, regardless of how terrible the reality is, the thing that allows you to transcend it is more powerful than that.

00:48:39.520 And that's an unbelievably optimistic vision.

00:48:42.760 And I do believe that, I do believe not only that it's true, I also believe that we actually know it's true.

00:48:48.120 And so, the first bit of evidence for that would be the reaction that you have to the people that you love.

00:48:53.820 But here's another bit of evidence.

00:48:55.420 So, and this is something that I've been, this is an idea that I've been honing.

00:48:59.460 One of the things I've noticed when I've been addressing crowds, is I listen to the reaction of the crowd.

00:49:06.400 And I'm really interested in those periods where it's dead silent, where you could hear a pin drop.

00:49:11.760 Because that means everybody's moving as if movement will disrupt what's happening.

00:49:16.640 And so that's an indication that something of significance is happening.

00:49:21.000 Everyone seems to be doing it at once, so it's, you know, maybe it's delusional, but probably not.

00:49:26.380 Well, you never know, but it doesn't seem to be.

00:49:28.360 And so, one of the things that I've noticed is that audiences now go dead silent whenever I talk about responsibility.

00:49:36.840 And I've thought about that a lot.

00:49:38.580 And I think there's a variety, and 12 rules for life, if it's about anything, it's about responsibility.

00:49:44.200 It's really about that.

00:49:45.220 But it's about responsibility for a very specific reason that's associated with meaning, I would say.

00:49:51.240 Okay. So, we've already laid out the first, the axiomatic structure, the description of life as suffering made worse by malevolence.

00:49:59.420 Which is a good thumbnail sketch of human history in some sense, or at least the negative elements of human history.

00:50:05.700 What do you have to set against that?

00:50:08.240 We think, well, let's take a look at that.

00:50:09.700 See, the problem with most moralizing, which is you should accept responsibility, right?

00:50:14.500 You should be a good person, is there's a kind of finger-waving element to it.

00:50:18.440 And there's no explanation.

00:50:19.760 It's like an authority has imposed this requirement on you.

00:50:24.100 And perhaps the requirement is legitimate.

00:50:26.960 But there's no explanation for why.

00:50:29.140 So, I've been trying to come up with an explanation for why.

00:50:32.640 And because it's a lot easier to get people to, what would you say?

00:50:38.260 People are much more motivated if they know why they're doing what they're doing.

00:50:41.580 Nietzsche said, he who has a why can bear any how.

00:50:46.480 And so, that's lovely.

00:50:47.300 And if the how is, how are you going to trudge through the catastrophe of life, let's say, with head held high, so that you can stand up straight with your shoulders back, how are you going to do that?

00:50:57.760 And the answer has to be, well, you have to find something worthwhile to do in the face of that.

00:51:02.460 And that's the why.

00:51:03.360 It's okay.

00:51:03.940 So, where do you find your why?

00:51:06.740 And, well, we said one answer is in the people that you love.

00:51:10.040 And so, you have your family members, you have your children, and you do your best by them.

00:51:14.180 But there's responsibility in that, especially, well, with parents and with children, right?

00:51:18.820 There's heavy responsibility with children.

00:51:20.980 It's perhaps the most, the heaviest of responsibilities.

00:51:23.440 But people also generally think, yeah, but that's, it's worth it.

00:51:28.400 And I've certainly noticed that with my own kids, is that, of course, they're a heavy responsibility.

00:51:34.940 Not least because they're so fragile.

00:51:37.360 Not least because you can have a walloping influence on them for harm, right?

00:51:42.080 Which is kind of a terrifying thing.

00:51:43.560 Not least because it's kind of up to you to show them the proper pathway forward.

00:51:48.680 Like, it's on you, man.

00:51:50.220 No doubt about it.

00:51:51.080 And children make that absolutely crystal clear like nothing else, I think.

00:51:55.900 But it's also, at least can be, the most rewarding thing that you ever do.

00:52:01.900 And so, and certainly the deep, having the relationship that you have with your children

00:52:05.860 is among the deepest relationships that you're going to have.

00:52:09.120 And, you know, people, I certainly felt that the relationship I had with my children,

00:52:15.400 the quality of the relationship I had with my children, partly because of what they revealed

00:52:19.500 to me as children, did more than pay me for the responsibility that I adopted in choosing

00:52:25.960 to take care of them.

00:52:26.880 And so, that was really interesting.

00:52:28.800 You think, well, here's a weird idea.

00:52:31.340 What if the meaning in life that you need to help lift you out of the tragedy is to be

00:52:37.080 found not in rights and impulsive freedom, let's say, which has been the damn dialogue

00:52:42.180 in our culture for at least five generations, as far as I can tell.

00:52:45.720 Maybe it's only four, but whatever.

00:52:47.340 It's many.

00:52:48.360 Maybe we got that wrong.

00:52:50.060 Maybe the fundamental meaning of your life is to be found in responsibility.

00:52:54.440 And so that the reason that you should adopt responsibility isn't so that you can be good

00:52:58.060 in some abstract, tyrannical, follow the damn rules way, but because the best pathway that

00:53:04.600 you have to move forward, given the terrible burden that you have to bear, is one where

00:53:09.020 you pick up that burden and bear it to the greatest degree that you possibly can.

00:53:13.720 And perversely, that serves as the cure.

00:53:16.300 And what's so interesting about that, many things, but one of the things that's interesting

00:53:20.420 about that is, you know, this is one of the things you do with people in psychotherapy.

00:53:24.100 If they're afraid of something, you don't say, here's a safe space.

00:53:28.920 You never have to encounter it.

00:53:30.580 Seriously, this drives me crazy as a clinical psychologist.

00:53:33.500 It's like, what are you doing, you dimwits?

00:53:36.940 You know?

00:53:39.100 Because, well, we're trying to improve our students' mental health.

00:53:44.080 I see.

00:53:45.080 Here's your theory.

00:53:46.300 You're going to act contrary to the fundamental principle of clinical psychology and psychiatry.

00:53:52.940 Because the fundamental principle, there's probably two.

00:53:55.140 One is, help the person get their story straight.

00:53:58.960 Okay, so that's rule number one.

00:54:00.360 That's what you're doing.

00:54:01.240 That's what you're doing in a good relationship.

00:54:03.300 But it's certainly what you're doing in a therapeutic relationship.

00:54:05.860 What happened to you?

00:54:08.000 Why did it happen?

00:54:09.380 Where are you now?

00:54:10.980 Where are you going?

00:54:13.000 Articulated, laid out, made clear.

00:54:15.340 Okay, so that's part of the psychotherapeutic relationship.

00:54:18.040 The next part would be, what is it that you're afraid of that's stopping you from moving forward?

00:54:24.340 It has to be both of those.

00:54:25.340 Because you're afraid of going to play in traffic.

00:54:27.460 But that doesn't mean you should go play in traffic.

00:54:29.680 Right?

00:54:29.920 Maybe you're afraid of public speaking.

00:54:32.520 And you have to conquer that.

00:54:33.720 Because your career ambitions require that you become a flexible and adequate public speaker.

00:54:40.440 And so you don't, you don't, you got to face it.

00:54:43.000 And you don't say to your client, oh look man, too bad you're afraid of public speaking.

00:54:47.580 We don't want to upset you.

00:54:49.200 Why don't you just stay in your bedroom?

00:54:50.680 Because then you'll never have to talk to anyone.

00:54:52.680 Right?

00:54:53.060 You don't say that.

00:54:53.880 You say, look.

00:54:54.500 No wonder you're afraid of public speaking.

00:54:57.840 Everybody's afraid of it.

00:54:58.940 So let's take a look.

00:55:00.080 Do you have the skills?

00:55:01.980 And if not, well, can we generate a strategy that would help you develop them?

00:55:05.780 And then, well, let's, let's have you practice.

00:55:08.360 You know, maybe you can, maybe you can stand up in my office and deliver me a one minute speech,

00:55:14.060 30 second speech, 10 second speech, I don't care, on, on what you did yesterday.

00:55:19.560 You know, and that's, that's, that's a, quite a demand for people who are terrified of public speaking.

00:55:23.740 Even in, in, in safe confines, relatively speaking.

00:55:27.740 Not safe in the, we'll protect you from everything sense.

00:55:31.000 But safe in the, let's play with danger sense.

00:55:34.220 Which is the right sense.

00:55:35.840 Because that's what safety really is.

00:55:37.480 Let's play with danger so we can master it.

00:55:40.460 Right?

00:55:40.740 And so you get the person to stand up and say some things about what they did.

00:55:44.220 And that's their first introduction to public speaking.

00:55:47.220 And then you just extend that.

00:55:48.440 It's like, well, next week, you can do it for 30 seconds.

00:55:51.660 And the week after that, well, why don't you come in with something you prepared for two minutes.

00:55:56.080 And, you know, you get the person to practice biting off a little more than they can chew.

00:56:00.580 And then they get braver and braver.

00:56:02.580 They don't get less afraid.

00:56:04.940 That's the thing that's cool.

00:56:06.700 And, well, why should you get less afraid?

00:56:08.380 It's like, life is dangerous.

00:56:09.780 No bloody wonder you're terrified.

00:56:11.500 It's no wonder you're afraid to speak to people.

00:56:13.200 Because they judge you.

00:56:14.140 It's like, it has real consequences.

00:56:16.240 You'd be a fool if you weren't afraid.

00:56:18.260 It's like, but don't let it stop you.

00:56:20.680 That's the thing.

00:56:22.480 Don't let it stop you.

00:56:23.740 And then you see the universities, they say, well, we're going to protect students from their fear by isolating them from anything that might upset them.

00:56:30.080 It's like, there isn't anything you could do to them, psychologically, that would be, arguably, that would be more damaging than that.

00:56:38.020 If you set out to design a process that would make students worse.

00:56:42.520 And what's so interesting about this is that we debate this.

00:56:50.700 It's like, if you took a thousand qualified psychologists and psychiatrists, and you said,

00:57:00.020 does graduated exposure to what makes you afraid cure people, if they said no, all that would mean was they weren't qualified.

00:57:11.620 Right.

00:57:13.260 It's that fundamental.

00:57:14.880 It's that, it's one of the, you know, we've been doing psychotherapy for a hundred years and studying how it works across all sorts of different approaches, right?

00:57:22.580 Medical and psychological and so forth.

00:57:25.160 And from all sorts of different schools of psychology.

00:57:27.540 And everyone's converged on those two things.

00:57:30.040 Get your story straight and expose yourself voluntarily and gradually to things that are impediments to your development that you're afraid of.

00:57:39.480 That cures you.

00:57:41.400 And, of course, if you think about it, A, that's how you learn to do everything, right?

00:57:46.800 Because, so it's the learning mechanism itself here.

00:57:49.700 Because what you do when you learn something is you take on something that's a little more difficult than you could do before with some trepidation.

00:57:56.500 And you practice it.

00:57:58.000 And so that's how you get better at it.

00:57:59.780 And so, and then B, well, what do you do with your kids?

00:58:03.760 You use graduated exposure.

00:58:06.100 You know, it's like, well, maybe they're afraid to stay over at a friend's house for an overnight.

00:58:11.180 It's the first time away from home.

00:58:12.620 Well, what do you do?

00:58:13.360 You don't say, hey, you never have to leave home.

00:58:15.340 Well, maybe you do.

00:58:16.640 But maybe you shouldn't.

00:58:18.540 Right.

00:58:19.040 Because then you end up with someone who never leaves home.

00:58:21.460 And that might be good for you.

00:58:22.840 Because you don't have to undergo the separation anxiety.

00:58:25.680 Which is really the problem that you've got to begin with.

00:58:28.400 But it's not so good for them because you've crippled them.

00:58:31.280 And purposefully so.

00:58:32.960 So they won't leave.

00:58:34.360 And that's not, and that is exactly what I see happening in the university campuses.

00:58:38.180 It's a manifestation of that pathological attempt to cripple the spirit of adventure that drives people out into the world.

00:58:46.400 And I see that, I see that as a boneheaded reflection of the notion.

00:58:50.800 I see that as a pathological reflection of the proposition that to take your place in the world is to attempt to participate in the patriarchal tyranny.

00:59:10.480 And so any way that you manifest yourself bravely in the world is actually indistinguishable from your participation in that tyranny and should be crippled.

00:59:19.560 And that's what people are learning in the universities.

00:59:22.240 It's like, it's absolutely sickening.

00:59:24.620 It makes me appalled to be a member of that establishment.

00:59:29.040 And so there's no excuse for it.

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01:02:27.340 Not when the whole goal is to, well, is to what?

01:02:30.320 In chapter 11, I say, don't bother children when they're skateboarding.

01:02:34.060 Well, why not?

01:02:37.340 Well, is it dangerous?

01:02:40.100 Yes.

01:02:40.820 Is it dangerous and stupid?

01:02:43.680 Sometimes.

01:02:44.520 You know, well, I watch the kids outside the St. George, I have this building, perversely enough, on St. George Street, which I think is really funny.

01:02:51.920 That's where I work at the University of Toronto.

01:02:53.660 I think it's funny because of St. George and the Dragon.

01:02:55.620 And that's, I guess, my joke because you don't think it's very funny, but I think it's funny.

01:03:02.020 Well, St. George and the Dragon is a very old story.

01:03:04.440 It's the oldest story of humanity, not in that form, but it's a variant of the oldest story of humanity.

01:03:09.860 And the oldest story of humanity is go out and confront the eternal enemy and the knight.

01:03:15.480 Go out forthrightly and confront it, and you'll gain what you need as a consequence.

01:03:19.900 And that's St. George.

01:03:21.480 It's an ancient, it's the ancient story.

01:03:24.980 And so, there's no getting rid of that story, unless you get rid of courageous human beings themselves.

01:03:31.440 And, of course, we could certainly do that.

01:03:33.600 But these kids used to skateboard out on the St. George steps where I worked.

01:03:39.340 And it was kind of fun to watch them.

01:03:41.120 They were usually guys, not always, but usually 13 to 16, something like that.

01:03:45.680 And the steps were wide and shallow and cement, and not that smooth sort of cement, but the rough cement,

01:03:51.420 so that if you fall on it, it doesn't just hurt, but it tears you up quite nicely.

01:03:55.720 And there were these tubular handrails that would go down the steps, and they were like 25 feet long or something.

01:04:03.000 And these damn kids would move from the wall, and they'd scoot forward really fast.

01:04:08.640 There's board, it's called board sliding.

01:04:11.140 This is, I think that's called, what they were doing.

01:04:12.620 And they'd zoom towards the rail, and then they'd jump up on the rail,

01:04:18.440 and they'd have their feet on their boards, and they'd try to slide down the damn rail on top of this cement.

01:04:24.600 And, you know, it was just painful watching them, because, of course, they fell all the time.

01:04:30.740 And they fell, and it hurt, you know.

01:04:32.340 They'd limp away, and sometimes they'd do the splits on the bar, which was particularly hard to take.

01:04:46.720 And, you know, they'd limp away, and they were smiling, and their friends were laughing at them and with them.

01:04:52.940 And then they'd sort of nurse their wounds for a while.

01:04:55.160 And then, they didn't go home, which is what the smart person would do.

01:04:58.800 It's like, I'm going home.

01:05:00.680 The pain says, go home.

01:05:03.160 No, they'd go back and do it again.

01:05:04.900 And then they'd do it again, and they'd do it again.

01:05:06.580 And you think, well, okay, what's the right attitude towards that?

01:05:09.820 It's like, well, how about a helmet?

01:05:12.240 How about a helmet?

01:05:13.600 How about some body armor?

01:05:15.320 Well, how about we just take the damn wheels off your skateboard?

01:05:17.600 And then the whole thing isn't going to happen, right?

01:05:19.760 Or maybe we make it so you can't skateboard there, which is what the university eventually did.

01:05:24.900 It's like, you can't skateboard here.

01:05:26.460 It's like, okay, why exactly can't you skateboard here?

01:05:29.640 Well, I think the reason was liability.

01:05:31.700 But if you're looking for a cowardly response to something, just look for something labeled,

01:05:38.060 we won't do this because of liability, and then you'll find a cowardly excuse for it.

01:05:42.220 And so when I was watching those kids, and I was watching the same sort of thing on YouTube at the time.

01:05:52.660 I like watching parkour.

01:05:54.040 I don't know if you know what parkour is.

01:05:56.020 Those people are absolutely insane, right?

01:05:58.860 They just, they run across buildings.

01:06:01.720 And I've seen people on YouTube jump down what looks like three stories and not die.

01:06:09.160 It's like, I don't know how they do it, and I'm sure many of them have died doing it.

01:06:13.500 But it's, they do this high-speed running across obstacles and cities, and it looks superhuman.

01:06:20.120 You know, and it is in some sense superhuman, because no one was doing it 30 years ago.

01:06:23.660 And now all sorts of people can do it, and they can do it spectacularly.

01:06:27.300 And you see these people on YouTube, too, doing crane climbing, which is also a form of absolute insanity.

01:06:32.360 You know, they go into buildings that are under construction, and climb up the buildings, and then they climb up the crane, and then they take a video of themselves on top of it.

01:06:40.840 Russians really seem to be into this.

01:06:46.180 And you know, you think, Jesus, that's stupid.

01:06:48.580 But there's a part of you that thinks, I, wow, really?

01:06:53.400 You did that?

01:06:54.380 You climbed up a building, and then you climbed up the crane?

01:06:56.820 You overcame your fear of, your justifiable fear of heights?

01:07:00.540 And you were willing to, you were willing to take the risk to extend your competence.

01:07:05.500 You were willing to take that great a risk to extend your competence.

01:07:08.880 It's like, man, it's just magnificent.

01:07:10.760 There's something about that that's absolutely magnificent.

01:07:13.160 And you see that on a small scale with the kids skateboarding.

01:07:15.940 It's like, of course it's dangerous.

01:07:17.960 It's like, and what do you do?

01:07:19.880 How are you going to make it safer?

01:07:21.620 Well, you can't, really.

01:07:23.780 I mean, you know, I know there's stupidity, right?

01:07:25.840 You can take something too far, but those kids are out there practicing to thrive in

01:07:31.520 a dangerous world.

01:07:32.800 That's what they're trying to do.

01:07:34.380 And they're trying to master their physiology, and they're trying to master their fear.

01:07:37.820 The same thing you do when you go to a horror movie, in some sense.

01:07:40.540 It's why do people, think about that.

01:07:42.300 People go to horror movies.

01:07:44.140 It's like, why do you go to a horror movie?

01:07:45.920 You like to be disgusted?

01:07:47.200 Because that's the splatter end of it, right?

01:07:49.200 That's disgust.

01:07:50.500 Or what, do you like to be terrified out of your skull?

01:07:53.020 It's like, no, you don't.

01:07:54.840 Normally, you'll avoid that.

01:07:56.620 So why do you go and pay?

01:07:58.880 The Blair Witch Project is a good example of that.

01:08:01.280 That was quite frightening, or I found it so.

01:08:03.360 All it was, was like this.

01:08:05.380 It's like an hour.

01:08:06.280 It's like, oh my God.

01:08:07.560 Nothing happens, right?

01:08:09.120 But something might happen.

01:08:11.140 It's like, and so they did that brilliantly, because the whole movie is, oh my God, something

01:08:16.740 might happen.

01:08:17.560 Something might happen.

01:08:18.320 So you're just on the edge of your seat, you know, and, and yet, and yet you'll pay

01:08:23.060 for that.

01:08:23.760 Well, and it's the same with the splatter movies.

01:08:25.580 It's like death and decay and disgust.

01:08:27.800 It's like, oh, horrible.

01:08:29.720 Well, we'll line up for that, because we need some more of that.

01:08:32.000 It's like, well, actually you do.

01:08:34.060 Because you have to expose yourself to terror.

01:08:36.140 And you have to expose yourself to disgust.

01:08:38.840 Because otherwise you can't live in the world.

01:08:41.580 So, and you, and you, and you're so driven to do that.

01:08:44.320 So perversely driven to do that.

01:08:46.400 That even though it's unpleasant, well, because it's unpleasant to be afraid.

01:08:50.380 Yes.

01:08:50.820 And it's unpleasant to be disgusted.

01:08:53.040 Yes.

01:08:53.560 And so, but you'll pay to go have someone professional do that to you for like two hours.

01:08:59.640 And then you think, well, isn't that interesting?

01:09:01.440 Because what it means is the, the pleasure you take in the mastery of the fear and the pleasure

01:09:06.340 that you take in the mastery of the disgust is more valuable and intense than the fear

01:09:12.380 and the disgust itself.

01:09:14.060 And then you think, well, that's a good motif for your life.

01:09:16.520 It's like, that's what you want, is you want the pleasure that you take in your life.

01:09:20.500 And pleasure is really the wrong word, because I think meaning is the right word.

01:09:23.780 You want the meaning in your life to be so intense that it supersedes the fear and the disgust.

01:09:30.220 And I think that that's possible.

01:09:31.440 So that's the other thing I've been trying to lay out in, in Maps of Meaning and Twelve

01:09:36.120 Rules for Life.

01:09:36.760 And I think it's, it's in some sense the answer to the conundrum of nihilism and postmodernism.

01:09:42.300 And those things are very tightly allied.

01:09:44.200 So the nihilists say, well, nothing's worth doing.

01:09:46.340 It's like, well, wait a second, or nothing means anything.

01:09:49.540 That's even worse.

01:09:50.300 But that's an easy one to take apart.

01:09:52.020 Nothing means anything.

01:09:53.540 Wrong.

01:09:55.040 Pain means something.

01:09:57.260 You just try to argue yourself out of your pain with your nihilism.

01:10:01.440 And see how far you get.

01:10:02.880 It's like, no, it doesn't move, man.

01:10:04.800 I'm in pain.

01:10:06.200 And you can't argue yourself out of your terror with nihilism either.

01:10:10.040 So there's meaning that's in, that cannot be moved by skepticism.

01:10:14.920 The meaning's all on the negative end.

01:10:16.360 But that's okay.

01:10:17.020 It's still a demol, demol, demol, demolishes the fundamental nihilist argument.

01:10:21.740 But on the upside of that is that, well, there are also things that you can engage in that are analgesic.

01:10:28.700 And that, what would you call, they don't mask the terror of life.

01:10:33.840 They justify it in some sense.

01:10:35.720 Or they make it a trouble that's worth bearing.

01:10:38.820 You think, well, this is worth it.

01:10:40.300 It's worth it.

01:10:41.500 And you think, well, it isn't, what I'm doing isn't worth it.

01:10:44.620 Therefore, there's something wrong with life.

01:10:46.020 It's like, no, wait a second.

01:10:47.780 That's not the right conclusion.

01:10:49.880 It's a conclusion.

01:10:51.340 But another conclusion is, no, there's something wrong with what you're aiming at.

01:10:55.460 If what you're aiming at doesn't justify you getting out of bed on a miserable morning,

01:11:00.700 then perhaps there's something wrong with what you're aiming at.

01:11:03.540 And so why not?

01:11:04.160 You might as well, there's this famous section from a play, The Cocktail Hour, by T.S. Eliot.

01:11:11.860 A woman in the play, she's talking to a psychiatrist at a cocktail party.

01:11:15.400 I believe, if I remember correctly.

01:11:17.820 And she says, I'm having a terrible time of it.

01:11:20.720 My life is unbearable.

01:11:22.080 And she outlines why.

01:11:23.380 And she says, I really hope there's something wrong with me.

01:11:26.280 And the psychiatrist says, why would you hope that there's something wrong with you?

01:11:30.840 And she says, well, look at it this way.

01:11:32.860 If I'm having a terrible time of it, and the world is at fault, then I'm done.

01:11:38.460 Because what am I going to do about that?

01:11:40.220 What am I going to do?

01:11:40.960 Fix the world?

01:11:42.880 That's not going to happen.

01:11:43.900 But if there's something wrong with me, well, hypothetically, I could fix that.

01:11:49.500 And so, well, I love that.

01:11:50.980 I thought it was extreme.

01:11:52.320 And by the way, that's what happens in the Old Testament all the time with the archaic Jews.

01:11:56.260 That's always what happens to them.

01:11:57.640 They get absolutely flattened by God.

01:11:59.860 Like, constantly.

01:12:01.360 Flattened, flattened, flattened.

01:12:02.940 It's the whole, the Old Testament is flattening the Jews by God.

01:12:08.500 And they, they get up and they say, we must have done something wrong.

01:12:14.820 Right?

01:12:15.580 Well, you think about that.

01:12:16.520 Think about how opposite that is to the current state of political discourse.

01:12:20.500 You know, I'm flattened.

01:12:21.940 Someone is at fault.

01:12:23.700 It's like, that's the victimization narrative.

01:12:26.060 That's the victim narrative.

01:12:26.980 It's someone's fault.

01:12:28.060 It's no, no.

01:12:28.580 It's built into the structure of existence, actually.

01:12:30.860 So maybe it's God's fault.

01:12:32.700 But the Jews, they wouldn't do that.

01:12:34.140 It wasn't God's fault.

01:12:34.980 It was their fault.

01:12:36.400 It was that they didn't aim high enough.

01:12:38.540 They broke the eternal covenant.

01:12:40.180 They didn't aim high enough.

01:12:41.620 Their sins came home to roost.

01:12:44.060 And you think, well, is that a pessimistic viewpoint?

01:12:46.320 It's like, yes, because it's your bloody fault.

01:12:48.660 But is it an optimistic viewpoint?

01:12:50.320 It's, yes, it's an optimistic viewpoint because it means you might be able to do something about it.

01:12:55.460 One of the things I outlined in chapter 10, which is, be precise in your speech,

01:12:59.980 is a series of findings from the neuroscience literature that indicate that this is really a mind-boggling set of discoveries.

01:13:09.480 And it spanned about 50 years, I would say, because we started to cotton on to it in the early 1960s.

01:13:16.760 The things you see in the world are profoundly determined by your aims in the world.

01:13:22.260 And I don't mean the things you think about.

01:13:24.660 I mean the things you literally see.

01:13:28.720 Because you can't see everything in the world, obviously, because there's a lot of world and there isn't very much of you.

01:13:34.320 And, like, when I'm looking at you, I can see you, but I can hardly see you two.

01:13:38.540 And you guys are just blurs.

01:13:39.960 And so, even in this tiny domain here, in order to see you, I have to move my head a lot to get a picture of the landscape.

01:13:46.820 And looking at all you, I don't see any of you.

01:13:49.880 And there's, all of LA is outside of this, and I don't see that.

01:13:53.680 And, you know, I don't see the micro parts of you.

01:13:56.620 And, God, I'm so blind.

01:13:58.560 And so, the question is, what's the mechanism that selects out what I perceive?

01:14:04.720 This is a major question.

01:14:06.400 And the answer is, your value structure.

01:14:08.840 Your value structure determines what you see.

01:14:12.780 Well, why is that?

01:14:13.720 Well, because you value, you aim at what you value, or you value what you aim at.

01:14:18.060 It's the same thing.

01:14:18.820 And so, those are the things you're after, right?

01:14:20.880 Because you pursue what you value.

01:14:22.780 Sort of the definition of value.

01:14:24.760 And so, well, why do you have vision?

01:14:27.140 Well, so you can see what you need to see when you pursue what you value.

01:14:30.980 That's why you have vision.

01:14:32.640 And so, what happens is, if you decide that you value something, then the world organizes itself into those things that will move you along on the pathway towards that value.

01:14:41.840 And you actually, literally, and I really want to emphasize this, literally, that determines what you see.

01:14:50.120 Now, it's not the only determinant, because the world's there too, right?

01:14:53.760 So, it can get in the way, and it can interfere, and it can screw up your perceptions, or your perceptions can fail.

01:14:58.700 But the world's very complicated, and lots of things are happening, and at least you filter all that through your value structure, and what gets through the filter is what you see.

01:15:08.460 So, what you value determines what you see.

01:15:10.860 So, then you think about this.

01:15:12.140 What if you don't like what you see?

01:15:15.940 Well, then you think, maybe you should do something about what you value.

01:15:19.600 Now, you could think about that for 20 years.

01:15:22.360 Well, I would recommend that, in fact.

01:15:23.620 In fact, likely, that's all you should ever think about.

01:15:28.620 I don't like what I see, therefore, I'm not valuing things properly.

01:15:32.960 It's a proposition, a hypothesis.

01:15:36.380 Well, what if it's true?

01:15:37.700 It might be true.

01:15:39.260 I do believe it's true.

01:15:40.640 I think the science indicates that it's true.

01:15:42.920 But I also think that it's one of the most profound revelations of our ancestral systems of meaning.

01:15:50.060 Right?

01:15:50.920 Because you need to get your values right.

01:15:53.200 You need to get your values straight.

01:15:54.900 And then, and this ties back into the idea of responsibility and meaning.

01:15:59.360 So, you think, well, what should you value?

01:16:03.440 Let's leave that aside.

01:16:05.220 What do you value if you look at what you value?

01:16:09.160 That's a better question.

01:16:10.560 Because you can sort of consult yourself.

01:16:12.780 It's not like, what should I value?

01:16:14.120 It's no, it's like, how does value manifest itself to me?

01:16:17.760 And then you think, well, when are you engaged in something meaningful?

01:16:21.720 We walk through this a little bit.

01:16:23.200 When you are in a relationship with someone you love.

01:16:25.520 There's one answer.

01:16:26.860 When you're doing something meaningful.

01:16:29.140 That's another answer.

01:16:31.160 Okay?

01:16:31.580 When are you doing something that's meaningful?

01:16:33.800 Well, let's think about the times that you're not doing something that's meaningful.

01:16:37.040 You're not doing something that's meaningful when you're wasting time on the internet.

01:16:41.400 And you all know that, right?

01:16:42.960 Because you should be doing something that's engaging.

01:16:45.880 But you're not.

01:16:46.500 You're wasting time, right?

01:16:48.540 You're procrastinating.

01:16:49.780 And it's sort of minorly amusing in a pathetic way.

01:16:53.200 Moment to moment.

01:16:54.120 But as you do it, you feel more and more sick.

01:16:56.840 And after three or four hours of it, it's like, you need to go have a shower.

01:17:00.200 You're just not happy with yourself, right?

01:17:02.300 And that's interesting because you could think, well, why don't you just tell yourself that

01:17:05.380 it's perfectly okay if you fritter away your time, you know, doing whatever it is.

01:17:10.160 Pathological thing that you're doing on the internet.

01:17:12.520 You know.

01:17:13.260 But that doesn't work.

01:17:14.420 You can't bargain yourself out of that.

01:17:15.960 You can't tell yourself, oh, anything I do is okay.

01:17:18.780 That just doesn't work.

01:17:20.080 You deviate from that path of engaged meaning and you suffer for it by your own judgment.

01:17:25.400 And so that's something that's really interesting.

01:17:27.440 Think, well, when am I wasting time on the internet?

01:17:31.700 Or procrastinating.

01:17:33.300 Well, when I'm not doing what I'm supposed to do.

01:17:36.120 It's like, okay, well, that's not a bad answer.

01:17:37.960 When I'm not bearing the proper responsibility for my life.

01:17:40.900 There's an answer.

01:17:42.600 It's like, how do I know when I'm playing too many video games?

01:17:46.020 Well, you get that sickening feeling of time slipping by.

01:17:50.780 Think, well, what does it indicate?

01:17:52.620 You're not on the right path.

01:17:54.520 By your own judgment.

01:17:55.760 I mean, other people might say to you too.

01:17:57.560 It's like, what the hell are you doing?

01:17:58.640 You're playing video games for 20 hours a day.

01:18:01.180 You know, and they'll shake their finger at you.

01:18:02.880 And you can ignore that.

01:18:04.340 Maybe you shouldn't.

01:18:05.080 But you can.

01:18:05.600 But that own, your own internal voice of conscience.

01:18:08.420 Especially the one that manifests itself in that physiological discomfort.

01:18:12.740 It's like, you can argue with that?

01:18:15.120 Well, you can't.

01:18:17.040 That's one of the things that's so interesting.

01:18:18.840 Is you'd think that you could tell yourself that it was all right.

01:18:24.220 And you would listen.

01:18:25.360 Because obviously you want to be doing that.

01:18:27.240 Because otherwise you wouldn't be doing it.

01:18:28.940 But you can't.

01:18:29.780 You can't get away with it.

01:18:31.360 And that's because you're violating that sense of meaning.

01:18:33.980 And so then you think, well, that's when you're violating it.

01:18:36.960 So you can tell that that's wrong.

01:18:38.940 Say, well, what's right then?

01:18:41.100 Well, what's right is whatever you're supposed to be doing.

01:18:43.820 And that might be, well, maybe you should be studying.

01:18:46.520 Maybe that's it.

01:18:47.300 Or maybe you have work to do.

01:18:48.460 Or you've got to clean your room.

01:18:49.600 I don't know what it is.

01:18:50.340 But there's something you should be doing that isn't that.

01:18:53.980 And what are all those variants of?

01:18:56.600 Well, the first thing would be, well, are you taking care of yourself?

01:19:01.200 That's like your first responsibility.

01:19:02.600 Because if you don't do it, well, you suffer.

01:19:05.680 And that's not so good.

01:19:06.520 And degenerate.

01:19:07.880 But that's not all.

01:19:09.420 You take people down around you, right?

01:19:11.500 Because if you're in a family and you suffer and degenerate stupidly,

01:19:14.620 then there's collateral damage.

01:19:17.340 You know, and if you really do a good job of suffering stupidly,

01:19:19.840 you could probably take two or three other people with you.

01:19:22.960 So, and if you're really spectacular at it,

01:19:25.560 you can have a pathological effect on the community at large.

01:19:28.360 So, that's something to practice.

01:19:30.460 Shooting up a school will do that for you, by the way.

01:19:33.200 And so, that's a nice route if that's what you want to take.

01:19:35.600 And certainly a large number of people seem to want to take that route.

01:19:38.780 So, but anyways, like the antidote to that sense of meaninglessness

01:19:42.100 that envelops you when you're wasting time

01:19:44.660 is to bear some responsibility.

01:19:47.840 And first for you, at least that, get your act together.

01:19:50.860 That's why this idea I have about, you know, you start by cleaning up your room.

01:19:55.440 It's like, of all the weird things to become a popular meme,

01:19:58.880 it's like, haven't you heard that before?

01:20:00.740 Some people have told you that before.

01:20:03.220 But, I think what I did was suggest why.

01:20:07.420 You know, oh, I see.

01:20:09.260 That's part of being that I have under my control.

01:20:12.280 It's not so big.

01:20:13.740 It's not such a big domain.

01:20:15.220 Well, it's not so little.

01:20:16.560 You know, you have a whole room that's pretty spectacular.

01:20:19.680 That's extraordinarily wealthy by the standards of human beings

01:20:23.400 across the stretch of history.

01:20:25.440 You could make that place perfect.

01:20:27.800 And then you'd have made one place perfect.

01:20:30.520 And then you'd have practiced making something perfect.

01:20:33.200 And then you'd kind of know how to do it.

01:20:35.020 And then you'd set up your room so that you could be properly there.

01:20:38.820 So that when you walked into it, walked into your room,

01:20:41.880 it would tell you how to exist properly.

01:20:44.400 It would reflect that back to you.

01:20:46.120 You know, and your clothes could be in order.

01:20:47.660 And you could have a plan that goes along with the room.

01:20:49.920 And you could sleep properly in there.

01:20:51.360 And then maybe you could even take the next gigantic step.

01:20:54.320 And you could think, God, you know, I could not only make this orderly.

01:20:57.220 I could make it beautiful.

01:20:58.940 And then you'd have to learn how to make something beautiful.

01:21:00.840 And then you'd have something beautiful and orderly.

01:21:02.880 And it would just be your room.

01:21:04.400 But then that would spread like mad.

01:21:06.880 And interestingly, too, you might have a terrible fight with your family

01:21:10.160 trying to make your room orderly and beautiful.

01:21:12.880 Because when you started doing that,

01:21:14.500 especially if the rest of the house was utter bloody chaos,

01:21:17.620 then as soon as you started to put that right,

01:21:19.420 it would highlight the degree to which everything else was utter bloody chaos.

01:21:23.680 And then that would make everybody who was participating in the chaos

01:21:26.840 feel guilty and horrible about being so useless.

01:21:29.740 And so instead of changing, what they would do is try to stop you from cleaning up your room.

01:21:34.420 And that will happen a lot.

01:21:36.100 And that's sort of what happens in life.

01:21:37.700 And that's kind of the story of Cain and Abel.

01:21:39.880 And so it's a lot more difficult to do that,

01:21:42.720 especially in a really pathological circumstance,

01:21:45.080 than you might ever dream.

01:21:46.440 And it's a lot more difficult to do it right.

01:21:48.740 But if you do it right, despite those over...

01:21:51.640 And then there's all your own internal objects.

01:21:53.720 I don't have to clean up my room.

01:21:55.080 I don't have to make my bed.

01:21:56.240 It's just a stupid room.

01:21:57.380 What difference does it make anyways?

01:21:58.540 I've got better things to do.

01:22:00.520 Yeah, blah, blah.

01:22:01.780 You know, all that nonsense.

01:22:03.480 You have to overcome all that in your own psyche as well,

01:22:06.160 to humble yourself enough to make your damn bed,

01:22:08.920 you know, like your mom told you ever since you were four.

01:22:11.740 So, well, so what's the point?

01:22:15.040 Well, the point here is that this is the point of 12 Rules for Life.

01:22:18.500 It's not the damn rules that are the point.

01:22:20.700 The point is to bear up under the burden that the rules produce.

01:22:24.380 It's to lift up something that's heavy and of value.

01:22:27.160 Because that strengthens you, right?

01:22:29.980 And it brings out your character.

01:22:31.460 And it enables you to thrive in a tragic and malevolent world without becoming bitter and malevolent.

01:22:37.100 And that stops you from working towards hell.

01:22:39.320 And maybe it helps you to work towards whatever the opposite of that is.

01:22:42.920 And what's so interesting about that, what's so cool about that,

01:22:45.940 is that the cure to the catastrophe isn't found in the solution.

01:22:51.400 It's found in the willingness to embark upon the solution.

01:22:55.080 That's so cool, because it means that in some sense you can have what you want right now.

01:22:59.560 All you have to do is decide to aim at something noble.

01:23:03.040 Take care of yourself.

01:23:04.340 Take care of your family.

01:23:05.780 Take care of your community.

01:23:07.160 Really aim at that.

01:23:08.060 And as soon as you start doing that, you're on the right path.

01:23:12.160 And the whole trick isn't to do it.

01:23:13.840 The whole trick is to be on the right path.

01:23:16.080 And so that's the thing.

01:23:27.920 And so that's what I've learned to hone better in the last 50 lectures.

01:23:32.160 Life is a tragic catastrophe, tainted by malevolence.

01:23:35.760 What's the cure?

01:23:37.520 To be on the right path.

01:23:40.040 And that's right in front of us.

01:23:41.400 And so we could be on the right path.

01:23:42.840 It would mean take as much responsibility as you could possibly bear.

01:23:47.340 And that will cure the catastrophe.

01:23:51.300 Not only psychologically, but will actually help you address the realities of suffering and malevolence.

01:23:56.900 And God only knows how much of that we could address if we actually decided that's what we were going to do.

01:24:02.240 You know bloody well that you can make things way worse than they are.

01:24:05.900 Everyone knows that.

01:24:07.080 No doubt you've tried.

01:24:08.780 And it's been successful.

01:24:09.980 And so you think, well what if you just stop doing that and you aim in the opposite direction?

01:24:14.580 How far could you get?

01:24:16.220 And part of the answer is it doesn't matter because merely as a consequence of you trying, like wholeheartedly, right?

01:24:23.020 With your full soul in it.

01:24:24.340 I don't mean some cynical attempt to justify yourself merely for the excuse of producing a failure.

01:24:32.360 I mean to be in it wholeheartedly.

01:24:34.360 As soon as you do that, you've got the answer to the problem of life.

01:24:38.860 Thank you very much.

01:24:47.740 So good job, man.

01:24:48.980 Thank you.

01:24:49.860 Thanks for the intro.

01:24:50.780 So my first question is you're now done with your 25-city tour.

01:24:56.980 So how does it feel?

01:24:57.980 Are you relieved?

01:24:59.360 Are you, what is the, this is now the only time that anyone can ask this question of how you feel completing a 25-city tour,

01:25:05.960 which is the type of tour that has never before really been done in history?

01:25:09.700 Well, I'm, I'm tired.

01:25:15.000 So, and I, I think that, well, you know, you kind of aim for the end of something to some degree, you know.

01:25:21.060 And so I think I had calibrated in my mind how much energy I could expend over this period of time.

01:25:28.960 And now that there's some ending, I'm, I'm done with, done with that.

01:25:33.460 I've expended all that energy and it'll be really useful to go home for a little while and, and rest.

01:25:39.700 To, to some degree, or at least do something different and then to engage in some different things.

01:25:44.420 And the other thing, too, is that I'm looking forward to that because one of the dangers of, of this is that it becomes routine.

01:25:51.480 And one of the things I noticed in my clinical psychology practice was that, this is something that's useful to know, too.

01:25:58.920 It's sort of a little joke.

01:26:00.260 If you have a lot of boring conversations, that's because you're boring.

01:26:05.160 Yeah, I know, it's a horrible thing to realize, you know.

01:26:12.480 It's what I've told young men, too, is, are all those women rejecting you?

01:26:16.560 Yes.

01:26:17.320 It's not the women.

01:26:20.660 It's because you're fundamentally worth being rejected.

01:26:23.180 Well, that's it.

01:26:23.640 It's like, you know, so, so, well, so the point, the point of that with regards to these lectures is that I want to keep them vibrant and alive.

01:26:31.200 I want to keep the living spirit in them, let's say.

01:26:34.680 And the way to do that is to speak on the edge, right?

01:26:39.840 And you can tell when that's happening because that engages everybody.

01:26:42.780 You have to be there.

01:26:43.820 You have to be present.

01:26:45.220 You have to be stretching your ideas outward.

01:26:47.820 You have to be doing what a novelist does, in some sense, in real time.

01:26:51.760 It has to be a creative act because otherwise it's not engaging.

01:26:55.020 And with any creative act comes the spectacular risk of constant failure, which is partly what it makes it engaging because you don't know, right?

01:27:03.280 Well, if I go way out on a limb, you know, verbally, am I going to be able to get back to the main track?

01:27:09.200 And sometimes I'm not so sure.

01:27:10.540 I wander off and I think, uh-oh, now I'm way the hell out here.

01:27:13.800 Where was I going?

01:27:15.260 And not being tired is a good way of getting back to the center, you know.

01:27:19.840 So, I'm looking forward to the break, but it's not because I'm done with this or tired of it.

01:27:25.400 It's impossible to be tired of this because it's so insanely positive.

01:27:31.120 You know, and it's so interesting.

01:27:32.960 I went to the Aspen Ideas Festival a couple of days ago and I wasn't very happy there.

01:27:37.580 I wanted to leave.

01:27:39.620 And the people that invited me were hospitable and everything, but there was an undertone to it that I didn't like.

01:27:45.420 And, but when I, in these venues, it's like there isn't anything about this that isn't good.

01:27:51.620 Everybody's coming here to have a hard discussion.

01:27:54.120 They're here to be thoroughly engaged.

01:27:56.700 They're not here primarily for political reasons.

01:27:59.200 They're here because they would like to aim higher, I would say.

01:28:02.440 That's what it looks like to me, is that people are here because they would like to figure out how to aim higher.

01:28:06.780 And they believe that's possible and they'd like to put it into practice.

01:28:09.840 And then a whole bunch of people that come have already done that.

01:28:12.660 And so, one of the things about this that's so incredibly engaging, the most engaging that anything can be,

01:28:19.660 is that people, I'll tell you a story.

01:28:21.280 I was in L.A.

01:28:22.440 And, well, I am now, too.

01:28:24.440 Fancy that.

01:28:26.060 I was at the Orpheum downtown.

01:28:28.680 And it was the day after.

01:28:31.740 And, you know, downtown L.A. is kind of ratty.

01:28:33.660 You guys should do something about that, by the way.

01:28:35.340 And there's places that you, there's places that you sort of wander around at your peril.

01:28:44.000 And my Canadian wife and I found a couple of those places.

01:28:47.620 And so, but anyways, we were wandering around the street the next morning.

01:28:52.160 And this car pulled up beside us and this kid jumped out.

01:28:55.160 He was a Latino kid, about 19 or 20 or something like that.

01:28:58.060 A good-looking kid.

01:28:58.740 And he hopped over and he was all happy to see me.

01:29:02.520 And he said, are you Dr. Peterson?

01:29:03.920 And I said, yes.

01:29:04.720 And he said, oh, I'm so happy to see you.

01:29:06.460 I can't believe you're here.

01:29:07.600 And all of that, which is kind of an interesting thing to have happen.

01:29:10.800 And he was all smiling away.

01:29:11.840 And he said, look, I've been watching your lectures for like the last six months.

01:29:15.140 And they've really helped me put my life together.

01:29:17.140 And I've got some plans and I'm trying to say what I believe to be true.

01:29:21.700 And I'm taking responsibility and things are way better.

01:29:24.560 And so I thought, now look, that's how you want to get mugged in downtown LA, right?

01:29:31.560 That's the perfect sort of mugging.

01:29:34.340 And so, so then he was all happy about that.

01:29:36.780 And then he said, hey, wait, wait, wait a minute, wait a minute.

01:29:38.640 And so I was standing there with my wife and he ran back to his car and he got his father out.

01:29:43.460 And so his father came over and they had their arms around each other.

01:29:46.060 And they were smiling away.

01:29:47.220 And he said, look, I can't tell you.

01:29:49.260 I put my relationship back together with my father.

01:29:51.820 And it's like, we're doing just great.

01:29:53.240 And they're just smiling away, you know, in that full smile that's an actual smile.

01:29:57.680 And it was so absolutely perfect.

01:30:00.480 And what's happening with this tour is that I just hear stories like that all the time.

01:30:06.240 In airports and in restaurants and after these talks.

01:30:09.300 And so, you know.

01:30:15.860 And as a, I'm a clinical psychologist and an educator.

01:30:19.060 And so I'm hoping that educating people about the dictates, the fundamental dictates of psychology,

01:30:25.900 especially on the clinical end, are actually helpful.

01:30:28.460 That would be the hope, right?

01:30:29.920 And they seem to be helpful.

01:30:31.400 But to have that manifest itself like that constantly, you can't get tired of that.

01:30:37.240 You know, people talk to me at the meet and greets after this.

01:30:40.760 And they say, well, you know, I know a lot of people have thanked you.

01:30:43.060 And they're all kind of apologetic about that.

01:30:45.180 Because they have a story to tell about, you know, how they put their life together.

01:30:48.640 And it's like, how could you ever be cynical enough so that a story like that doesn't just cut you to the bone every time?

01:30:57.040 It's something, man.

01:30:58.460 So I'm not tired of this, but I'm tired.

01:31:02.020 So it's a good time for a rest.

01:31:07.440 All right.

01:31:08.000 So let's do a question that can't conceivably get you in any trouble.

01:31:13.340 Let's open with that, which is, have you ever done any psychedelic drugs?

01:31:17.460 Well, first, pot is legal in Canada now.

01:31:26.760 And so I've actually smoked some pot, surprisingly enough.

01:31:30.100 So I'm sure that's not true of any of you.

01:31:33.760 And unlike many of your presidential candidates, I inhaled.

01:31:38.460 Because that was like the point, eh?

01:31:47.840 And so, and I've tried other things as well.

01:31:52.760 Most notably, psilocybin mushrooms, which I would say, if you have any sense, that you should stay the hell away from.

01:31:59.540 I'm absolutely, insanely curious about them, for all sorts of reasons that I can't go into.

01:32:09.460 But that doesn't mean I'm recommending them, because...

01:32:16.920 Well, I told one of my friends once about hallucinogenic mushroom experience.

01:32:25.800 And he said, well, is it interesting?

01:32:27.620 And I said, is it...

01:32:29.260 I think he said fun, which is certainly not the right word.

01:32:32.860 I said, well, imagine that you're in like a canoe on the ocean, eh?

01:32:36.160 And you're looking over in the water.

01:32:37.680 And all of a sudden, a massive whale shark comes right up from the bottom of the deep.

01:32:43.040 And it opens its mouth right in front of you.

01:32:44.900 It's like 15 feet across the mouth.

01:32:47.580 It's open, and you can see right down to the bottom.

01:32:49.960 And then it closes and dives down.

01:32:51.740 You think, well, was that fun?

01:32:52.920 It's like, no.

01:32:53.760 Well, that's not fun, but it's interesting.

01:33:08.940 And I remember that story because I was that friend that you told.

01:33:12.760 Yes, yes, yes.

01:33:14.420 While we're just outing shit, I'm here on stage.

01:33:18.280 Okay.

01:33:19.680 Anonymous asks, and curiously, this is anonymous.

01:33:22.800 Would you call a marriage without sex a marriage?

01:33:30.000 I would call it a marriage that's very likely to have a short lifespan.

01:33:37.120 Look, I mean, people come to their...

01:33:38.840 It depends, eh?

01:33:39.600 People come to their own arrangements.

01:33:41.240 And there are a lot of differences in sex drive.

01:33:43.720 And certainly, that's the case also as people age.

01:33:47.440 And if it turns out that you, both of you, haven't just shut yourself off out of resentment

01:33:54.120 and spite and horror and anger and habit and carelessness and stupidity, all of those things,

01:34:03.180 then you've come to a point in your relationship where, you know, you're basically living as intimate,

01:34:08.680 as close friends, and that's actually okay with both of you, with no lies,

01:34:15.040 then, hey, it's your marriage, man.

01:34:19.820 And you have the right and the responsibility to arrange it however you see fit.

01:34:24.960 But I would say there is a high probability in most situations that some of those other factors have killed your romance.

01:34:35.560 And that's not good.

01:34:37.960 And you could tell that, really, because you would say, well, if you're in a relationship like that and you're resentful,

01:34:45.280 then...

01:34:46.500 And you can tell if you're resentful because you have fantasies of revenge, or maybe...

01:34:51.000 Here's another way of telling...

01:34:52.820 Well, that's one way.

01:34:54.200 You know, and people won't notice that.

01:34:56.280 They'll deny it to themselves.

01:34:57.860 A little fantasy of revenge will flash through their minds.

01:35:00.140 It's like, I could have an affair, you know.

01:35:01.620 It's like, that's a fantasy of revenge.

01:35:03.760 And so if that isn't happening...

01:35:06.860 Or maybe, you know, Greg said earlier that one of the hallmarks of a good friend is that you can tell good news to a good friend.

01:35:12.940 And if you tell good...

01:35:14.280 There's a rule I was going to write about.

01:35:15.860 Maybe I'll put that in my next book.

01:35:17.300 Is, you know, be careful who you tell good news to.

01:35:20.860 That's one rule.

01:35:21.660 Another rule is be careful who you tell bad news to.

01:35:24.200 But if you tell good news to a real friend, then the friend is really happy that you have some good news.

01:35:30.560 And if you tell good news to someone who really isn't your friend,

01:35:33.580 then they come up with a bunch of reasons why other things happened to them that were better.

01:35:37.740 Or they deflect the converse.

01:35:39.220 They can't just celebrate along with you because it generates resentment and envy, you know.

01:35:44.040 And so if you're in a relationship that doesn't have any physical intimacy,

01:35:49.620 and you're still able to respond to good things that happen to your partner in a positive way,

01:35:56.560 then that might be some genuine indication that you're actually not bitter and resentful.

01:36:01.120 But you probably are.

01:36:03.040 So, well, because it's so easy to be that way, you know.

01:36:06.900 And so if you've managed it, and you've negotiated it, and it's okay with both of you,

01:36:11.720 and that's genuinely true, and none of those other conditions apply,

01:36:15.320 and you're not lying, and you're not resentful and angry and nursing a grudge,

01:36:20.480 and you can still celebrate with your partner, then more power to you.

01:36:24.980 So, that's a lot of conditions, man.

01:36:29.800 It's quite a needle of a thread.

01:36:31.400 Yeah.

01:36:31.760 Yeah.

01:36:32.620 Okay, so Tammy asks,

01:36:34.480 why do you allow yourself to be roasted and harangued by so-called journalists like Kathy Newman?

01:36:40.720 And before you answer, I'd like to point out that this is not Tammy, your wife, who asked the question.

01:36:44.920 This is another Tammy.

01:36:47.040 Sure.

01:36:47.400 My wife is here.

01:36:52.700 Tammy is here in the audience.

01:36:54.040 She travels with me, and she's been very helpful.

01:36:56.620 Is very helpful.

01:37:07.640 Well, first of all, you never know what's going to happen in an interview.

01:37:12.320 So, it's not like I can tell beforehand.

01:37:15.820 So, with Newman, for example, when I first sat down with her,

01:37:19.980 first of all, Tammy and I were in the dressing room with her,

01:37:22.900 and she was getting all spritzed up, you know, and hairsprayed and all of that,

01:37:28.760 which is what happens when you're on television all the time.

01:37:31.460 And she was quite friendly and chatty,

01:37:34.000 and we were having a pretty decent little conversation,

01:37:37.280 and then we went out onto the stage,

01:37:39.460 and the cameras turned on, it was like, different person.

01:37:45.400 And so, what do you do in a situation like that?

01:37:48.120 Well, you try to adjust.

01:37:50.140 You try to watch what's going on, and you try to adjust.

01:37:52.820 And so, that's the first rule, is like,

01:37:56.180 you can't tell whether the journalist is going to be honest.

01:38:01.200 Now, I would say, in support of journalists,

01:38:05.380 I've had many journalists who have been very helpful to me.

01:38:11.740 They've played it straight.

01:38:14.000 I would say there's like five journalists in Canada

01:38:16.620 who are the top journalists, most of them print journalists,

01:38:19.160 but not all of them.

01:38:20.060 The top journalists in Canada,

01:38:22.840 the most well-known journalists in Canada,

01:38:25.400 and the ones with the most independent opinions,

01:38:27.740 have been firmly on my side

01:38:29.760 after about three weeks into this,

01:38:32.340 once they realized when I was commenting on this compelled speech legislation in Canada

01:38:36.560 that I'd actually read the damn legislation and the policies

01:38:40.620 and understood it and was revealing what was there.

01:38:44.340 There was confusion about that for a while.

01:38:46.460 So, answer one, you don't know.

01:38:49.540 And then, I've had journalists who sounded just fine

01:38:52.480 when they were interviewing me,

01:38:53.960 and then wrote bitter pieces, you know,

01:38:56.240 and misquoted me purposefully

01:38:57.960 and did all sorts of, you know, underhanded things.

01:39:03.100 But my sense generally is, is that,

01:39:06.560 you know, if it...

01:39:08.580 The best way to operate in life is this,

01:39:12.560 is, you know, when you're young and naive,

01:39:14.540 you trust everyone.

01:39:16.160 And you think, well, that's good.

01:39:17.900 Kids are good because they trust everyone.

01:39:19.820 It's like, no, they're not good.

01:39:20.900 They're just naive.

01:39:21.720 And it looks like goodness, but it's not.

01:39:24.080 It's just naivety.

01:39:25.420 And then you get burned.

01:39:27.060 Or maybe you get burned a number of times.

01:39:28.680 And then you get cynical.

01:39:30.220 And you think, I'm a lot smarter now that I'm cynical.

01:39:32.580 It's like, yeah, you're not naive.

01:39:36.400 So, insofar as you're cynical,

01:39:38.380 that's actually a step forward,

01:39:39.880 even though it's also, in some sense, a step down.

01:39:43.260 But there's something after cynicism.

01:39:45.860 And what's after cynicism is,

01:39:47.420 well, I know that you're a...

01:39:51.200 What would you say?

01:39:54.320 You're a nest of serpents,

01:39:56.580 just like me.

01:39:59.220 And what's the best way to deal with you?

01:40:01.700 And the answer to that is to extend a hand in trust,

01:40:05.240 knowing perfectly well

01:40:06.800 there's potential for corruption and betrayal.

01:40:11.540 Because to extend a hand in trust

01:40:13.980 is the best antidote to that.

01:40:17.120 Now, that doesn't mean it's always going to work.

01:40:18.720 You're still going to get nailed from time to time

01:40:21.200 by people who aren't wise enough

01:40:23.000 to respond to that properly.

01:40:26.240 But if you don't do that,

01:40:28.240 if you cut yourself off,

01:40:29.500 then you treat everyone as if they're

01:40:31.880 untrustworthy and bitter and cynical.

01:40:34.480 And then you can't communicate with anyone.

01:40:37.280 So you have to take the risk.

01:40:38.620 And then, so that's the next reason.

01:40:41.400 And then the third reason is

01:40:43.520 there's no evidence,

01:40:47.860 there's no necessary evidence

01:40:49.360 that being attacked is a bad thing.

01:40:52.000 Like, sometimes it is.

01:40:53.460 Sometimes it's a really good thing.

01:40:55.540 Like, the thing, the...

01:40:57.420 It depends on, you know,

01:40:58.460 your measurement, obviously,

01:40:59.800 but there's been three or four instances.

01:41:04.600 Like, I've been scandal-plagued for two years.

01:41:07.280 At least one major scandal

01:41:09.320 probably every two or three days

01:41:11.960 for two years, something like that.

01:41:13.820 It's really, really...

01:41:14.720 We keep thinking it'll stop,

01:41:16.260 but it doesn't, weirdly enough.

01:41:17.920 But in any case,

01:41:19.540 I've had...

01:41:22.620 The first thing that happened to me

01:41:24.340 that really went viral, let's say,

01:41:26.360 was a video that was recorded

01:41:28.020 by a bunch of activist types

01:41:30.120 outside the University of Toronto building

01:41:33.500 where I work.

01:41:34.260 And it was after a free speech protest,

01:41:36.980 a couple hours after.

01:41:40.300 It was in favor of free speech,

01:41:41.900 but it was very badly disrupted

01:41:43.340 by professional activist types,

01:41:45.120 a couple of whom were clearly

01:41:46.220 quite psychopathic.

01:41:48.380 Not all of them,

01:41:49.240 but there were some people there

01:41:50.200 that were quite dangerous.

01:41:51.520 You know, I could see who they were.

01:41:53.360 There was two or three of them,

01:41:54.220 and they pop up at these events.

01:41:55.660 There are people who are waiting

01:41:56.620 for the mayhem so they can party.

01:41:58.940 You know, and most people aren't like that,

01:42:00.440 but some people are really like that.

01:42:02.420 Anyways, I went out about two hours

01:42:04.360 after the protest to talk to the cops

01:42:06.000 to see if anything particularly stupid

01:42:07.700 had happened,

01:42:08.320 and it hadn't.

01:42:09.820 And when I was walking back in,

01:42:11.140 I got accosted by a group of activist types,

01:42:13.500 and they had their cell phones out,

01:42:14.820 and they recorded the whole damn thing.

01:42:16.300 And then they put it up on YouTube,

01:42:17.500 and they figured,

01:42:18.060 well, that's the end of Professor Peterson.

01:42:20.060 But it wasn't at all,

01:42:21.700 because it got like,

01:42:22.940 I think it's got four million views now,

01:42:24.860 and the comments in favor of me

01:42:26.440 were running 100 to one.

01:42:27.760 And so, I've been attacked a lot,

01:42:31.620 and all that's happened

01:42:33.080 is that it's redounded badly on the attacker.

01:42:36.400 Now, not all,

01:42:37.100 because, you know,

01:42:37.680 my reputation isn't stellar in certain circles,

01:42:41.300 but, you know, what's so cool

01:42:43.220 is that the circles in which

01:42:45.860 my reputation isn't stellar

01:42:47.780 are losing their reputation

01:42:50.020 very, very, very rapidly.

01:42:52.020 So,

01:42:53.780 and this is another one

01:43:00.440 of the advantages of free speech.

01:43:02.440 It's like, well,

01:43:03.160 do people get to attack you

01:43:04.640 and be offensive to you?

01:43:06.000 It's, well, yes,

01:43:07.420 within the bounds of legal acceptability.

01:43:12.200 Why is that okay?

01:43:14.120 Because the motives of those

01:43:16.000 who attack without cause

01:43:17.860 reveal themselves in the attack.

01:43:20.600 And then you think,

01:43:21.400 well, are people wise enough

01:43:23.320 to pick that up?

01:43:24.580 And the answer is,

01:43:26.220 eventually, yes.

01:43:29.180 And so, the fact that I'm being

01:43:30.780 attacked in an unwarranted way

01:43:33.100 lays bare the structure

01:43:35.020 of the unwarranted attacks.

01:43:37.240 And that's,

01:43:37.940 that's actually likely

01:43:39.640 way better than not being attacked at all,

01:43:41.920 assuming that,

01:43:42.940 that there are, you know,

01:43:44.380 pathological things occurring.

01:43:46.500 So,

01:43:48.280 it's been,

01:43:48.880 I've been very fortunate.

01:43:51.860 That's the first thing,

01:43:52.800 you know,

01:43:52.940 and I know how this could go south

01:43:54.380 and I've seen it happen

01:43:55.260 to other people

01:43:55.900 and so I've been very fortunate

01:43:57.160 and I don't take that for granted.

01:43:58.700 But,

01:44:00.280 if you're,

01:44:00.940 you're in the fray,

01:44:02.460 you're in the fray

01:44:03.080 and you can't whine

01:44:03.900 about the consequences.

01:44:05.560 And I especially can't

01:44:06.840 because the consequences

01:44:08.220 have been overwhelmingly positive,

01:44:11.760 even though

01:44:12.240 there's always been a price,

01:44:14.280 you know,

01:44:14.460 there's a price to pay

01:44:15.300 along the way.

01:44:16.320 So,

01:44:16.800 you can't have the good.

01:44:18.460 You know,

01:44:18.740 it's funny

01:44:19.080 because I talk to my publishers sometimes

01:44:20.760 and they're kind of concerned

01:44:22.220 about me being so controversial.

01:44:24.060 And I think,

01:44:25.340 okay,

01:44:25.660 this is what you want.

01:44:26.760 You want a risk-free bestseller

01:44:28.580 with no controversy.

01:44:31.540 Right,

01:44:32.080 it's like,

01:44:32.440 well,

01:44:33.340 good luck with that.

01:44:36.660 It's like,

01:44:37.380 that's not happening.

01:44:38.720 So,

01:44:39.500 it's okay.

01:44:41.060 So far,

01:44:41.700 it's okay.

01:44:43.040 So,

01:44:43.780 this is a very serious question

01:44:45.460 which I want to put up

01:44:46.620 while you still have

01:44:47.380 a good amount of time

01:44:48.660 to answer

01:44:49.100 if you need to take

01:44:50.060 a little longer.

01:44:51.060 This person says,

01:44:51.920 I'm a local firefighter paramedic

01:44:53.840 and blame myself

01:44:55.220 for the loss

01:44:55.900 of a particular patient.

01:44:57.340 It keeps me up many nights.

01:44:59.100 How do I go about

01:45:00.040 forgiving myself?

01:45:00.960 Well,

01:45:07.880 if I was seeing you,

01:45:09.700 I would get you to tell me

01:45:11.200 exactly what happened.

01:45:13.060 You know,

01:45:13.600 so we could go through it

01:45:14.800 and we would see

01:45:15.580 if you made

01:45:16.840 any mistakes

01:45:18.240 that need to be rectified

01:45:20.140 because

01:45:20.440 what you really want to learn

01:45:21.940 from what happened,

01:45:23.080 let's assume you did make a mistake.

01:45:24.640 We'll do it both ways.

01:45:25.660 We'll assume you made a mistake

01:45:26.720 and then we'll assume

01:45:27.920 you didn't make a mistake

01:45:28.760 and you're just torturing yourself.

01:45:30.060 So,

01:45:30.900 because that sort of spans

01:45:31.840 the realm of possibility.

01:45:34.140 If you did make a mistake,

01:45:35.360 well,

01:45:35.480 you have to figure out

01:45:36.020 what the mistake was.

01:45:37.580 Then you have to figure out

01:45:38.540 what you have to do

01:45:39.360 to decrease the probability

01:45:41.200 that you will make that mistake

01:45:42.620 again in the future.

01:45:43.880 That's to atone.

01:45:45.380 So,

01:45:45.660 let's say you made a mistake,

01:45:46.620 you have to atone for it.

01:45:47.640 How do you atone for it?

01:45:48.800 By not propagating the mistake

01:45:50.320 into the future.

01:45:51.660 How much should you

01:45:52.440 beat yourself up for it?

01:45:54.140 Enough so that you learn.

01:45:55.620 Should you beat yourself up

01:45:56.700 any more than that?

01:45:57.600 No,

01:45:58.040 because it's just

01:45:58.580 counterproductive.

01:46:00.660 Hypothetically,

01:46:01.180 you're useful.

01:46:01.780 You're a paramedic.

01:46:02.620 You're a firefighter.

01:46:03.620 It's like,

01:46:03.980 well,

01:46:04.160 good for you,

01:46:04.740 man.

01:46:04.960 That's like,

01:46:05.700 hooray for you.

01:46:06.820 You've got a useful function

01:46:08.820 in the world

01:46:09.300 and a necessary function.

01:46:10.820 You don't want to beat yourself

01:46:12.140 to death

01:46:12.620 any more than necessary

01:46:13.840 to learn

01:46:14.840 because you're valuable.

01:46:15.880 and that's like

01:46:17.280 a rule of thumb

01:46:17.980 for dealing with yourself,

01:46:19.000 period.

01:46:19.360 It's like,

01:46:19.700 how much should you suffer

01:46:20.800 for your stupidity?

01:46:22.740 Enough to learn

01:46:23.760 so that you don't repeat it.

01:46:25.560 No more than that.

01:46:27.380 Minimal necessary force.

01:46:29.520 It's the same thing

01:46:30.180 you do with your kids.

01:46:31.240 How much should you punish

01:46:32.160 your child

01:46:32.580 for a transgression?

01:46:33.920 Well,

01:46:34.040 the punishment should match

01:46:35.100 the crime

01:46:35.680 and it should only be implemented

01:46:37.600 to the point

01:46:38.160 where the child learns

01:46:39.040 that that's not

01:46:39.680 acceptable behavior.

01:46:41.420 Right?

01:46:41.660 And then you can forgive them

01:46:43.220 and let them go

01:46:43.820 into the future.

01:46:45.620 So that's,

01:46:46.400 I would say,

01:46:46.960 don't use a hand

01:46:49.000 that's too heavy.

01:46:50.260 Don't use a hand

01:46:51.080 that's too heavy

01:46:51.600 even on yourself.

01:46:53.380 You know?

01:46:53.800 And so,

01:46:55.280 because you,

01:46:57.960 someone was taken out,

01:46:59.280 let's say,

01:47:00.040 because of something

01:47:00.760 you did or didn't do.

01:47:02.000 You're going to take

01:47:02.440 yourself out too?

01:47:04.620 That's not helpful.

01:47:06.500 And when you say,

01:47:07.040 well,

01:47:07.140 I made a mistake,

01:47:07.880 it's like,

01:47:08.260 well,

01:47:08.440 yeah,

01:47:08.680 you and the rest

01:47:09.240 of the medical world,

01:47:10.160 you know,

01:47:10.880 medical error

01:47:11.360 is the fourth leading

01:47:12.000 cause of death.

01:47:13.200 You're in a big club,

01:47:14.200 man.

01:47:14.900 People make mistakes

01:47:15.740 all the time

01:47:16.280 and it's no bloody wonder

01:47:17.220 because you're dealing

01:47:18.000 with life and death situations

01:47:19.280 and in life and death situations

01:47:20.600 sometimes people die

01:47:21.700 and sometimes the reason

01:47:23.020 they die

01:47:23.420 is because the people

01:47:24.120 trying to save them

01:47:24.860 aren't fast enough

01:47:25.580 or smart enough

01:47:26.240 or good enough

01:47:26.900 or any of those things.

01:47:28.700 It's like,

01:47:29.160 it's the price

01:47:30.060 of doing business

01:47:30.800 and it's absolutely

01:47:31.660 catastrophic.

01:47:33.020 But that doesn't mean

01:47:34.000 that the right thing

01:47:35.060 for you to do

01:47:35.600 is torture yourself

01:47:36.420 to death about,

01:47:37.940 you know?

01:47:38.300 And then there's

01:47:38.860 the possibility too

01:47:39.700 that you just made,

01:47:41.620 you know,

01:47:41.920 that you just weren't

01:47:42.760 enough in that situation

01:47:44.060 but that many other people

01:47:45.200 wouldn't or maybe everyone

01:47:46.300 wouldn't have been enough

01:47:47.120 in that situation.

01:47:48.720 And so you might need

01:47:49.740 to talk to someone about it.

01:47:50.820 That's what I would recommend

01:47:51.680 to begin with

01:47:52.340 is like if it's really

01:47:53.100 keeping you up at night,

01:47:54.580 you know,

01:47:55.040 there's a bunch of

01:47:56.060 possible reasons for that.

01:47:57.360 You made a terrible mistake.

01:47:58.800 That's one reason.

01:47:59.700 You made a terrible

01:48:00.600 unforgivable mistake.

01:48:02.600 Less likely

01:48:03.300 but also possible.

01:48:04.180 you're really stressed

01:48:06.160 by your job

01:48:06.960 and you're depressed

01:48:07.800 and so you're fixating

01:48:09.000 on something you did

01:48:10.020 because your mood

01:48:10.720 is dysregulated

01:48:11.520 because you're too stressed.

01:48:12.940 And if your sleep

01:48:13.540 is disrupted

01:48:14.140 that could easily

01:48:15.080 be a sign of that.

01:48:16.160 It could be

01:48:16.700 that you're guilty

01:48:17.340 but it could be

01:48:17.920 that you're just

01:48:18.580 overwhelmed by your job

01:48:20.300 and because you're

01:48:21.420 feeling depressed

01:48:22.040 you're getting obsessive

01:48:23.000 about an error.

01:48:23.880 That happens to

01:48:24.460 depressed people

01:48:25.040 all the time.

01:48:26.060 So you've got to

01:48:26.360 watch that.

01:48:27.760 I would say

01:48:28.720 you should go

01:48:30.300 talk to somebody.

01:48:31.680 Find a professional,

01:48:32.460 probably a behavioral

01:48:33.400 psychologist

01:48:34.040 because they're

01:48:34.840 generally quite

01:48:36.120 well trained.

01:48:37.440 Go look for someone

01:48:38.180 who has a PhD.

01:48:39.440 Look for someone

01:48:40.020 who has a PhD

01:48:40.820 from an American

01:48:42.340 Psychological Association

01:48:43.760 accredited school

01:48:45.420 and just go tell them

01:48:47.120 here's what happened

01:48:48.500 here's what I think

01:48:50.300 I was at fault for

01:48:51.280 here's what's happening

01:48:52.520 in my life

01:48:53.000 as a consequence

01:48:53.580 and lay it out.

01:48:55.460 But the goal

01:48:56.120 should be to

01:48:56.980 return to your

01:48:58.500 productive life

01:48:59.580 because having you

01:49:00.980 take it out

01:49:01.560 isn't helpful.

01:49:03.520 Adding another

01:49:04.360 catastrophe to the

01:49:05.500 catastrophe isn't

01:49:06.300 helpful.

01:49:07.420 And you're going to

01:49:08.500 have to forgive

01:49:09.040 yourself to some

01:49:09.760 degree if you're

01:49:10.300 going to work in a

01:49:10.980 nightmare because

01:49:12.240 you're going to

01:49:12.540 make mistakes.

01:49:14.060 So that's the

01:49:15.540 price man.

01:49:16.680 So I would say

01:49:17.380 lighten up

01:49:18.780 nurse the

01:49:22.540 possibility that

01:49:23.480 you're too

01:49:24.440 stressed and

01:49:25.100 torturing yourself

01:49:25.780 because of that

01:49:26.440 and seriously

01:49:27.420 consider go talk

01:49:28.960 to a psychologist

01:49:29.660 once.

01:49:31.380 If it doesn't

01:49:32.120 work, if it

01:49:32.840 isn't good, find

01:49:33.820 another one, try

01:49:34.600 it again.

01:49:35.020 If it doesn't

01:49:35.420 work three times

01:49:36.140 then don't do

01:49:36.820 it.

01:49:37.240 But what the

01:49:37.640 hell do you

01:49:37.900 have to lose?

01:49:39.600 Right?

01:49:40.000 You've got your

01:49:40.920 misery to lose.

01:49:41.900 That's all.

01:49:42.680 So lose it.

01:49:44.300 So, yeah.

01:49:45.820 Thank you.

01:49:52.600 So Peter of

01:49:53.860 Calabasas inquires,

01:49:55.440 do you have

01:49:56.240 groupies?

01:50:00.860 I don't think

01:50:05.900 so.

01:50:08.240 Well, you know,

01:50:08.940 because groupies

01:50:09.500 are young women

01:50:11.200 who are lining up

01:50:11.880 to sleep with you

01:50:12.620 mostly, right?

01:50:14.580 And so, I don't

01:50:17.300 think so.

01:50:19.720 That might be

01:50:20.520 something that

01:50:21.020 would trip your

01:50:21.540 awareness.

01:50:21.960 It might.

01:50:22.580 Although it's

01:50:23.540 amazing how blind

01:50:24.360 you can be to

01:50:24.960 that sort of

01:50:25.460 thing.

01:50:27.240 I think partly

01:50:28.200 you have groupies

01:50:29.000 also if you're

01:50:29.660 looking for them.

01:50:30.640 You know, if you

01:50:31.120 sort of broadcast

01:50:31.760 that idea.

01:50:32.540 And you can do

01:50:32.920 that in all sorts

01:50:33.520 of ways.

01:50:33.940 And I don't

01:50:34.460 think I'm

01:50:34.860 broadcasting the

01:50:35.640 idea that I'm

01:50:36.220 looking for

01:50:36.620 groupies.

01:50:37.660 So, no, I

01:50:40.140 don't think so.

01:50:41.700 I have had

01:50:42.540 people go kind

01:50:43.300 of fangirl on me

01:50:44.280 from time to

01:50:44.820 time, much to

01:50:45.420 their chagrin.

01:50:46.260 But they've

01:50:46.720 generally turned

01:50:47.340 out to be quite

01:50:47.960 sensible people.

01:50:48.980 I was at a hotel

01:50:50.660 a while back.

01:50:51.360 I don't know

01:50:51.720 what city we

01:50:52.340 were in.

01:50:53.040 Walked outside

01:50:53.800 to get in an

01:50:54.600 Uber.

01:50:55.900 And there's a

01:50:57.740 girl waiting

01:50:58.220 beside a car.

01:50:59.420 And she just

01:50:59.780 went completely

01:51:01.320 fangirl.

01:51:01.900 She started, you

01:51:02.440 know, getting

01:51:02.720 that high-pitched

01:51:03.380 voice.

01:51:03.880 And she was

01:51:04.120 sort of flapping

01:51:04.680 about.

01:51:05.260 And she's all

01:51:06.540 excited.

01:51:07.640 And so I

01:51:08.900 talked to her

01:51:09.340 for a while.

01:51:09.880 And then we

01:51:10.680 were looking

01:51:10.960 around for the

01:51:11.440 Uber.

01:51:11.900 And she was

01:51:13.820 the Uber driver.

01:51:18.060 So we figured

01:51:19.620 that out.

01:51:19.960 And then she

01:51:20.280 was all

01:51:20.560 embarrassed about

01:51:21.300 it.

01:51:21.460 She said,

01:51:21.580 oh no, I

01:51:22.040 went all

01:51:22.400 fangirl on

01:51:23.180 you.

01:51:23.400 And we

01:51:23.780 got in the

01:51:24.200 car and she

01:51:25.220 drove us to

01:51:25.680 where we were

01:51:25.960 going.

01:51:26.240 And she

01:51:26.420 turned out to

01:51:26.840 be quite a

01:51:27.260 sensible person.

01:51:28.720 So I guess

01:51:29.680 that was, she

01:51:30.500 was sort of

01:51:30.980 proto-groupy, I

01:51:31.900 suppose.

01:51:32.400 But she

01:51:32.700 turned sensible

01:51:34.120 very quickly.

01:51:35.020 So that was

01:51:35.400 quite nice.

01:51:36.320 Could have

01:51:36.660 been an awkward

01:51:37.340 silent drive

01:51:38.440 afterwards.

01:51:38.960 Yeah, yeah.

01:51:39.240 No, no, it

01:51:40.320 was okay.

01:51:41.320 It was okay.

01:51:43.220 It's pretty weird

01:51:44.120 though, I'll tell

01:51:44.660 you.

01:51:44.800 Is it

01:51:47.240 possible to

01:51:47.960 get your

01:51:48.240 life together

01:51:48.980 without becoming

01:51:49.980 a square?

01:51:51.320 Serious

01:51:51.800 question, much

01:51:52.720 internal tension

01:51:53.580 related to

01:51:54.240 striking this

01:51:54.860 balance properly.

01:51:54.880 Oh, you don't

01:51:55.420 have your life

01:51:56.020 together if you're

01:51:56.660 a square.

01:51:57.880 That's not

01:51:58.480 together.

01:51:59.760 Like, it's

01:52:00.260 better than not

01:52:01.160 having, it's

01:52:01.920 better, probably

01:52:03.120 it's better to be

01:52:03.960 a square than to

01:52:04.840 be a disorganized

01:52:05.880 catastrophe.

01:52:06.540 So, I

01:52:08.680 think that's, and

01:52:09.960 I figured that

01:52:11.640 out, I think

01:52:12.260 when I was

01:52:12.640 reading Maps

01:52:13.400 of Meaning.

01:52:13.860 You start as a

01:52:14.520 disorganized

01:52:15.100 catastrophe, then

01:52:16.340 you have to

01:52:16.720 impose a

01:52:17.340 disciplinary

01:52:17.920 structure on

01:52:18.660 that.

01:52:19.340 And the

01:52:19.740 risk of

01:52:20.200 imposing a

01:52:20.800 disciplinary

01:52:21.280 structure is

01:52:21.980 that you get

01:52:22.420 all disciplined

01:52:23.020 and orderly and

01:52:23.780 square and dull

01:52:24.740 and all of

01:52:25.220 that.

01:52:25.540 But at least

01:52:26.180 you're not

01:52:26.460 completely useless

01:52:27.620 and chaotic.

01:52:29.180 So, but then

01:52:29.960 there's something

01:52:30.660 past that, which

01:52:31.540 is you take

01:52:32.120 your discipline

01:52:32.860 personage and

01:52:34.640 you introduce

01:52:35.380 the right amount

01:52:36.280 of chaos and

01:52:37.180 catastrophe into

01:52:38.060 that, right?

01:52:38.560 And that's the

01:52:39.020 risk-taking, that's

01:52:39.840 sort of what I

01:52:40.280 was talking about

01:52:40.880 with regards to

01:52:41.480 the kids that

01:52:41.920 were skateboarding.

01:52:42.700 It's like you

01:52:43.540 structure your

01:52:46.280 habitable and

01:52:47.300 disciplined space

01:52:48.840 but then you

01:52:49.720 start to extend

01:52:50.580 that.

01:52:51.220 So, you should

01:52:51.780 be a square that

01:52:53.480 takes risks.

01:52:55.180 It's something

01:52:55.620 like that because

01:52:56.460 then you expand

01:52:57.580 your square-dom.

01:52:59.260 You're continually

01:53:00.180 expanding your

01:53:01.100 square-dom and

01:53:01.700 that makes you

01:53:02.240 not a square.

01:53:03.680 So, that's the

01:53:04.520 thing, that's why

01:53:05.120 you have to be on

01:53:05.880 the line between

01:53:06.660 chaos and order,

01:53:07.800 right?

01:53:08.020 And not in

01:53:08.840 chaos, that's no

01:53:09.800 good.

01:53:10.240 And not in

01:53:11.000 order, that's no

01:53:12.260 good either.

01:53:13.100 You want to be in

01:53:14.500 order with a foot in

01:53:15.480 chaos and then that

01:53:16.800 makes you the thing

01:53:18.660 that's always getting

01:53:19.680 better than it

01:53:20.380 already is.

01:53:21.440 And there's nothing

01:53:22.200 about that that's

01:53:23.120 dull or boring or

01:53:24.200 if there is, then

01:53:26.140 you're not doing it

01:53:26.760 at a sufficient rate.

01:53:28.240 Like, you should do

01:53:28.860 it at a rate that you

01:53:29.660 can barely tolerate.

01:53:32.500 That's what it looks

01:53:33.100 like to me, right?

01:53:34.500 I mean, maybe that's

01:53:35.540 wrong, maybe that's

01:53:36.220 my own peculiarity,

01:53:37.340 but it seems to me,

01:53:39.080 look, imagine you

01:53:40.060 see a great athletic

01:53:41.940 performance like a

01:53:43.100 gymnast.

01:53:43.680 This always comes to

01:53:44.600 mind because I've

01:53:45.340 watched the Olympics,

01:53:46.220 you know, now and

01:53:46.660 then you see a

01:53:47.600 gymnast come out, do a

01:53:48.980 floor exercise,

01:53:50.540 perfectly.

01:53:51.980 They're in order.

01:53:53.480 You can tell they put

01:53:54.320 their 15,000 hours of

01:53:56.460 practice into that

01:53:57.300 routine because it's

01:53:57.960 just flawless and

01:53:59.080 everybody in the

01:54:00.080 audience claps away

01:54:00.980 and the judges give

01:54:01.820 them, you know, like

01:54:02.520 95th percentile scores

01:54:04.400 and it's perfect.

01:54:05.880 And then the next

01:54:06.620 person comes out and

01:54:08.080 it's like, what the

01:54:08.700 hell are they going

01:54:09.180 to do?

01:54:09.440 Because that was

01:54:09.940 perfect and you

01:54:11.000 can't be better than

01:54:11.920 perfect.

01:54:12.620 It's like, yes, you

01:54:13.700 can.

01:54:14.840 And so that person

01:54:15.640 comes out and it's

01:54:16.380 like they give the

01:54:16.960 performance of their

01:54:17.760 life and you can tell

01:54:19.120 when you're watching

01:54:19.840 them that not only are

01:54:20.960 they doing everything

01:54:21.920 perfectly, they're

01:54:23.340 pushing themselves right

01:54:25.280 to the brink of

01:54:26.420 catastrophe with every

01:54:27.900 move and you can tell

01:54:28.800 that, right?

01:54:29.260 Because that's another

01:54:29.780 time when the crowd

01:54:30.480 goes dead silent and

01:54:31.420 everybody's on the

01:54:32.020 edge of their chair

01:54:32.600 because you can see

01:54:33.400 that they're just by

01:54:35.040 the little wobbles in

01:54:36.140 their movement even

01:54:36.920 that they're stretching

01:54:37.820 themselves to perform

01:54:40.600 better than they've

01:54:41.460 ever performed and

01:54:42.320 they're taking the

01:54:43.040 risk of failure to do

01:54:44.600 it.

01:54:45.400 And so, and they stop

01:54:46.920 at the end of the

01:54:47.480 performance and they

01:54:48.220 go like that, you

01:54:49.760 know, there's that

01:54:50.160 triumphant gesture and

01:54:51.560 everybody stands up and

01:54:53.020 claps like mad and

01:54:54.500 that's better than

01:54:56.000 order, right?

01:54:57.340 And then the judges,

01:54:58.320 they say it's 9.9 and

01:54:59.720 they're the gold medal

01:55:00.500 winner because not

01:55:01.320 only were they

01:55:01.840 perfect, they were

01:55:02.680 better than perfect and

01:55:04.340 everyone participates in

01:55:05.700 that.

01:55:05.860 That's why we watch

01:55:06.600 sports in large part to

01:55:08.260 see that happen now and

01:55:09.440 then.

01:55:10.020 You know, and

01:55:10.260 everybody jumps up in

01:55:11.680 the stadium and they

01:55:12.700 hug each other when they

01:55:13.620 see that.

01:55:14.060 It's like, what's with

01:55:14.980 you people?

01:55:15.500 Why are you doing that?

01:55:16.780 It's like someone hit a

01:55:17.760 ball.

01:55:18.260 Who cares?

01:55:19.020 It's like, no.

01:55:20.320 Well, seriously, it's

01:55:21.320 arbitrary, right?

01:55:22.220 You think, well, what are

01:55:22.880 you all doing?

01:55:23.540 Are you deluded?

01:55:24.180 It's like, no, you're

01:55:25.820 celebrating the extension

01:55:28.140 of the humanly possible

01:55:29.780 and you're doing that in

01:55:31.440 the athletic realm and

01:55:32.460 that's better than

01:55:33.140 perfect and you live for

01:55:34.400 those moments and not

01:55:35.780 only that, you live for

01:55:36.760 those moments in your

01:55:37.840 life or you could say

01:55:38.820 that the only moments in

01:55:39.920 your life when you're

01:55:40.580 really living are those

01:55:41.640 moments.

01:55:42.420 You want to have them as

01:55:43.240 often as possible.

01:55:44.600 So, no, if you're just a

01:55:46.840 square, then you're too

01:55:48.240 much in the domain of

01:55:49.280 order.

01:55:50.080 You want to push yourself

01:55:51.640 out to where the

01:55:52.560 adventure is, you know,

01:55:54.140 and then you have the

01:55:55.220 adventure and the

01:55:56.000 stability and that keeps

01:55:57.200 the dynamism in your

01:55:58.300 life because you're not

01:55:59.540 there just to be secure.

01:56:01.380 It's like, secure.

01:56:03.960 You're secure in the

01:56:05.040 grave.

01:56:05.680 You're not secure when

01:56:06.480 you're alive.

01:56:07.160 You're on the edge when

01:56:08.160 you're alive, right?

01:56:09.560 And you're dancing on

01:56:10.800 the edge and that's

01:56:11.780 better than just order.

01:56:13.280 But you don't get there

01:56:14.400 without the order.

01:56:21.640 You talk a great deal

01:56:26.360 about Jung's shadow and

01:56:27.940 the importance of

01:56:28.600 integrating these aspects

01:56:29.740 into everyday being.

01:56:31.760 How do you know when

01:56:32.580 you're done?

01:56:35.520 Other people tell you

01:56:36.860 when you're done.

01:56:38.740 You're not done.

01:56:41.300 You know, it's the edge

01:56:42.760 thing again.

01:56:43.500 It's that you're not,

01:56:44.140 you're never done.

01:56:46.140 Because the proper form

01:56:48.140 of being is an eternal

01:56:49.580 form of becoming.

01:56:50.640 And we'd outlined that

01:56:52.280 tonight to some degree

01:56:53.380 in the lecture, right?

01:56:54.440 Because the idea was

01:56:55.280 that, well, just by,

01:56:56.720 just by starting on the

01:56:58.620 path, you're in the

01:56:59.560 right place.

01:57:00.780 I mean, it's a funny

01:57:01.360 thing because you're

01:57:02.080 still going somewhere.

01:57:03.080 If you're trying to

01:57:03.540 make your life better

01:57:04.700 and your family's life

01:57:05.580 better and your

01:57:07.340 community's life better,

01:57:08.280 there is a better that

01:57:09.400 you're trying to go to.

01:57:10.480 But weirdly enough,

01:57:11.740 you inhabit that better

01:57:12.800 as soon as you start

01:57:13.840 on that path.

01:57:14.840 Especially if you're

01:57:15.560 committed to it.

01:57:16.600 And that path is a

01:57:17.540 pathway of continual

01:57:18.700 improvement.

01:57:21.280 It's continual

01:57:22.000 transcendence, right?

01:57:23.500 And the meaning in life

01:57:25.480 is to be found in the

01:57:26.440 continual transcendence

01:57:27.920 of what you have.

01:57:29.220 And so there's no,

01:57:30.000 there's no end to that.

01:57:31.780 I've had visions of

01:57:32.800 heaven, you know,

01:57:33.480 and I thought, well,

01:57:34.180 heaven's a place where

01:57:35.020 everyone, everyone

01:57:36.560 meditates on how the

01:57:38.300 heaven that they inhabit

01:57:39.420 currently could be made

01:57:40.620 into an even more

01:57:41.480 spectacular heaven.

01:57:42.840 And that's heaven.

01:57:43.620 It's just the continual

01:57:44.980 revelation of one heaven

01:57:46.460 that supersedes the

01:57:47.600 previous heaven.

01:57:48.380 And that's a vision

01:57:49.440 for, that's a vision

01:57:50.560 for the, I would say

01:57:51.760 perhaps the ultimate

01:57:53.020 destiny of, perhaps the

01:57:54.860 ultimate destiny of

01:57:55.860 consciousness is to

01:57:56.840 inhabit something like

01:57:57.960 that.

01:57:58.700 But you start that in

01:57:59.580 your own life.

01:58:00.240 It's like, well, it's

01:58:00.880 good, it's good, it's

01:58:01.960 great.

01:58:02.460 See if you can make it a

01:58:03.160 little better.

01:58:03.600 And not in a greedy

01:58:05.100 way.

01:58:05.580 It's the adventure of your

01:58:07.220 life to see if you can

01:58:08.260 do that.

01:58:08.780 And if it's a little

01:58:09.580 better, you want to make

01:58:10.280 it a little better.

01:58:11.260 And you want to make it

01:58:12.060 a little better.

01:58:12.720 And, you know, in a

01:58:13.760 deep way, in a way that

01:58:15.280 you, that, because to

01:58:16.560 make something better is

01:58:17.420 to struggle with the

01:58:18.480 depths of things.

01:58:20.040 And so, and then the

01:58:21.600 shadow integration, it's

01:58:22.780 like, well, what's that

01:58:23.640 about?

01:58:24.060 It's, well, you have to

01:58:25.180 be tough to do this.

01:58:27.140 You know, and that's

01:58:27.620 why I've told, this is

01:58:28.840 something I've told young

01:58:30.060 men in particular, but I

01:58:31.540 think that's because I

01:58:33.180 don't think you have to

01:58:33.980 tell that to women right

01:58:35.100 now.

01:58:35.520 Even though it's also

01:58:36.380 equally important for

01:58:37.300 women.

01:58:38.400 Men are being told

01:58:39.720 consistently that their

01:58:41.820 competence and their

01:58:43.600 ability is the major

01:58:45.820 contributor, so to speak,

01:58:47.300 to the tyrannical

01:58:48.140 patriarch.

01:58:48.840 And so the best in

01:58:49.780 them is associated with

01:58:50.940 the worst.

01:58:51.600 It's like, that's just

01:58:53.100 wrong.

01:58:53.760 It's like, it's bitterly

01:58:55.240 and horribly wrong.

01:58:56.120 And it's terrible for

01:58:56.980 everyone to believe that.

01:58:58.420 It's terrible for men

01:58:59.320 and it's terrible for

01:59:00.160 women as well.

01:59:01.180 Unless what you want

01:59:02.060 from your men is

01:59:02.780 absolute emasculation and

01:59:04.220 pathetic uselessness,

01:59:05.380 which will only manifest

01:59:06.520 itself in rage and

01:59:08.360 catastrophe.

01:59:09.160 That's the outcome for

01:59:10.160 that.

01:59:10.400 So I say, well, you

01:59:11.940 think strong men are

01:59:12.820 dangerous.

01:59:13.340 You wait till you see

01:59:14.280 what weak men can do.

01:59:16.060 So you want...

01:59:17.720 So I'll give you an

01:59:25.980 example.

01:59:26.540 I'll give you an

01:59:26.960 example.

01:59:27.380 I met Douglas Murray a

01:59:28.400 while back.

01:59:29.140 And Murray's a very

01:59:30.080 interesting person.

01:59:31.300 I don't know if you

01:59:31.840 know about him, but

01:59:32.600 he's written some very

01:59:34.160 contentious books.

01:59:35.180 And he's had the same

01:59:37.220 experience in the UK,

01:59:38.440 I would say, in some

01:59:39.400 sense that I've had in

01:59:40.320 North America.

01:59:40.980 He's been attacked by

01:59:42.280 the press.

01:59:43.220 He's a conservative gay

01:59:44.380 guy.

01:59:46.120 And it was really

01:59:47.420 interesting meeting him

01:59:48.320 because he's very

01:59:49.000 soft-spoken and he is

01:59:50.540 absolutely immovable.

01:59:52.820 Like, you're not going

01:59:53.860 to intimidate him, or

01:59:55.060 even if you do, you're

01:59:56.500 not going to scare him

01:59:57.600 into not saying what he

01:59:58.800 thinks.

01:59:59.400 And you can just tell

02:00:00.320 that just by...

02:00:01.240 Even though he's very

02:00:02.280 calm, he's very polite,

02:00:03.480 he's very self-possessed.

02:00:04.780 Kind of reminded me a bit

02:00:05.840 of Stephen Fry.

02:00:06.760 He's got that same kind

02:00:07.740 of elegant control, you

02:00:09.140 know?

02:00:09.420 Very impressive.

02:00:10.600 He's got a spine of

02:00:11.860 bloody steel.

02:00:13.020 The guy's a monster.

02:00:14.900 And Lindsay Shepard, you

02:00:16.300 know, that girl that's

02:00:17.260 suing Wilfrid Laurier

02:00:18.480 University?

02:00:19.120 Some of you know about

02:00:19.920 that.

02:00:20.220 She was a teaching

02:00:21.180 assistant at Wilfrid

02:00:22.300 Laurier University in

02:00:23.280 Canada who was showed a

02:00:25.040 clip, dared to show a

02:00:26.620 clip of me from public

02:00:27.840 television to her

02:00:28.760 communications class and

02:00:31.040 got just raked over the

02:00:32.460 coals for it by her

02:00:33.480 idiot professors.

02:00:34.760 Idiot professors and

02:00:36.100 an administrator hired

02:00:37.220 for that purpose.

02:00:38.420 She's another person

02:00:39.280 like that.

02:00:39.760 She's got a bloody

02:00:40.480 spine of steel, that

02:00:41.720 girl.

02:00:42.020 She's only 22 and

02:00:43.140 she...

02:00:43.700 Don't mess with her.

02:00:45.560 You can't move her.

02:00:47.380 And those are people

02:00:48.240 that have their shadow

02:00:49.100 integrated.

02:00:49.780 It's like we have a

02:00:50.920 great capacity for

02:00:52.360 mayhem and evil.

02:00:53.880 Make no mistake about

02:00:55.060 it.

02:00:55.740 And you can...

02:00:56.360 But you can take that

02:00:57.460 and you can put it in

02:00:58.460 you and then behind you.

02:01:00.160 You know, if you take

02:01:00.880 stock of it, if you can

02:01:01.980 see it, if you're

02:01:03.180 willing to contend with

02:01:04.120 it, you can make it

02:01:04.980 part of you.

02:01:06.180 And then it becomes

02:01:06.900 something that makes

02:01:07.660 you immovable in the

02:01:09.560 pursuit of good.

02:01:10.780 And it's not because

02:01:11.560 you're naive and weak.

02:01:12.740 It's not that at all.

02:01:13.960 It's because you are an

02:01:14.920 absolute bloody monster.

02:01:16.800 But you're oriented in

02:01:17.800 the right direction.

02:01:18.840 And that's the

02:01:19.400 incorporation of the

02:01:20.360 shadow.

02:01:21.040 And that's to get the

02:01:21.960 anger, the aggression

02:01:23.740 working for you.

02:01:25.200 To get the fear

02:01:25.800 working for you.

02:01:26.920 To get the sexual

02:01:27.980 attractiveness and

02:01:29.080 charisma working for

02:01:30.620 you.

02:01:30.800 all lined up behind

02:01:32.320 your aims.

02:01:33.520 That's an integrated

02:01:34.380 character.

02:01:35.540 And that's to...

02:01:36.040 And this isn't...

02:01:37.720 This isn't abstract

02:01:39.880 philosophical musing.

02:01:42.340 Quite the contrary.

02:01:43.680 One of the things that

02:01:44.460 you do in psychotherapy

02:01:45.460 very, very frequently.

02:01:46.660 So there's get your

02:01:47.340 story straight.

02:01:48.300 There's face what you

02:01:49.060 fear.

02:01:49.700 But there's something

02:01:50.340 else too, which is

02:01:51.360 integrate your anger

02:01:54.380 well enough so that you

02:01:55.280 can say what you have

02:01:56.160 to say.

02:01:57.420 And so think about it

02:01:58.360 this way.

02:01:58.780 Imagine that you're

02:01:59.640 conflict avoidant.

02:02:02.080 You're not assertive

02:02:03.140 enough.

02:02:03.480 You're conflict avoidant.

02:02:04.760 How can you tell?

02:02:06.400 You're resentful.

02:02:08.440 Right?

02:02:08.740 And so here's two

02:02:09.340 reasons why you're

02:02:10.140 resentful.

02:02:10.820 There's only two.

02:02:11.920 One is you're immature

02:02:13.320 and pathetic and you

02:02:14.260 should get your act

02:02:14.860 together.

02:02:15.560 That's reason number

02:02:16.440 one.

02:02:17.160 Another is you're

02:02:18.860 being oppressed.

02:02:20.420 You're being bullied.

02:02:21.900 And you have something

02:02:22.720 to say and you're not

02:02:23.740 saying it.

02:02:24.580 Those are the two

02:02:25.540 reasons.

02:02:26.080 Now, you should start

02:02:26.940 with the first one

02:02:27.700 because, you know,

02:02:28.620 you're a mass of

02:02:29.300 contradictions and you're

02:02:30.220 not everything you

02:02:30.840 could be.

02:02:31.480 So maybe you're just

02:02:32.280 whiny and resentful.

02:02:33.520 So how do you figure

02:02:34.180 that out?

02:02:34.900 Talk to some people

02:02:35.860 and say, look, here's

02:02:37.300 the situation.

02:02:38.060 This is what's

02:02:38.520 happening at work.

02:02:39.240 This is the person I

02:02:40.040 think that is mistreating

02:02:41.440 me, whatever.

02:02:42.460 Here's my list of

02:02:43.440 grievances.

02:02:44.900 Is it me?

02:02:47.340 Or is something not

02:02:49.580 good here?

02:02:50.640 And maybe the person

02:02:51.560 will say, well, here's

02:02:52.340 some of it that's you.

02:02:53.300 But look, it really

02:02:54.060 looks like this is not a

02:02:55.440 good situation.

02:02:56.220 You have something to

02:02:56.940 say.

02:02:57.640 It's like, okay, you

02:02:59.320 have something to say.

02:03:00.560 It's going to make you

02:03:01.180 resentful and bitter not

02:03:02.200 to say it.

02:03:02.720 And if you don't say it,

02:03:03.600 you're going to stay

02:03:04.120 oppressed and unhappy,

02:03:06.680 victimized.

02:03:07.620 So you're going to have

02:03:08.520 to learn to say it.

02:03:09.720 How are you going to

02:03:10.380 have to learn?

02:03:11.860 You're going to have

02:03:12.440 to get that aggression

02:03:14.280 that's manifesting itself

02:03:15.900 in the resentment and all

02:03:17.120 the fantasies of revenge

02:03:18.440 that go along with that.

02:03:19.740 You're going to have to

02:03:20.380 integrate that and you're

02:03:21.760 going to have to start to

02:03:22.620 use it to your

02:03:23.540 strategic advantage.

02:03:25.360 And that's it.

02:03:25.760 That's assertiveness

02:03:26.400 training.

02:03:27.120 It's like the third most

02:03:28.560 popular thing that

02:03:29.580 psychologists do.

02:03:30.680 It's like, okay, you've

02:03:31.460 got something to say.

02:03:32.560 We're going to help you

02:03:34.820 figure out how to put

02:03:36.300 your damn case forward.

02:03:38.740 And that means you're not

02:03:39.760 going to lose when it

02:03:40.660 happens.

02:03:41.160 It means that you're

02:03:41.780 going to have a strategy.

02:03:43.060 You're going to have five

02:03:43.920 reasons to do what you're

02:03:44.960 doing.

02:03:45.340 And you're going to have

02:03:46.120 thought through exactly

02:03:47.320 what you're going to do

02:03:48.240 if each of those reasons

02:03:49.820 fail.

02:03:50.200 And you're not going to

02:03:51.920 lose.

02:03:53.020 And so what that is

02:03:53.960 is that, see, when you

02:03:55.760 raise a child and you do

02:03:57.080 that properly, you don't

02:03:59.000 raise a child who isn't

02:04:00.060 aggressive.

02:04:01.680 All you've got then is a

02:04:02.980 scared, overgrown infant.

02:04:05.480 What you do when you raise

02:04:06.440 a child properly is you

02:04:07.820 raise someone who has

02:04:08.840 integrated their aggression

02:04:10.300 into their character.

02:04:11.360 So, for example, maybe

02:04:12.300 they're playing on a

02:04:13.540 sports team.

02:04:14.820 You want no aggression.

02:04:16.040 No aggression on the

02:04:16.860 sports team.

02:04:17.420 It's like, of course you

02:04:19.160 don't want that.

02:04:19.920 It's like, think about it.

02:04:21.260 What you want is the kid

02:04:22.780 to be aggressive and

02:04:25.540 master it.

02:04:26.600 Play by the rules, right?

02:04:28.580 Play in an ethical manner

02:04:31.340 to be a good sport, to help

02:04:33.320 develop the rest of the

02:04:34.340 team.

02:04:34.860 To know that winning the

02:04:36.400 series of games is more

02:04:37.620 important than winning any

02:04:38.640 singular game.

02:04:39.960 But to play the game with

02:04:41.220 his or her whole heart.

02:04:44.720 Well, the aggression is

02:04:45.520 integrated, not suppressed

02:04:47.220 or inhibited.

02:04:49.000 It's integrated.

02:04:50.240 And to integrate your

02:04:51.060 shadow is exactly that.

02:04:52.240 It's to take that immense

02:04:53.420 capacity you have for

02:04:54.720 hatred and anger and

02:04:55.800 bitterness and resentment

02:04:56.860 and mayhem and to pull it

02:05:00.680 into the game and have it

02:05:01.840 serve the good that you're

02:05:03.480 pursuing.

02:05:03.860 And that's the integration

02:05:05.300 of the Jungian shadow.

02:05:06.520 And the way through that

02:05:07.800 is terrible because you

02:05:08.940 have to realize, if you're

02:05:10.920 resentful, man, you can bet

02:05:13.600 on this.

02:05:14.060 If you are resentful, you are

02:05:15.200 doing all sorts of things to

02:05:17.180 take revenge.

02:05:18.200 But they're all underground.

02:05:19.740 They're all unconscious.

02:05:21.240 They're all acted out in a

02:05:22.360 passive-aggressive way.

02:05:23.600 Because you don't have the

02:05:24.640 damn gall to make it

02:05:26.060 conscious and to put it

02:05:27.300 right.

02:05:27.580 And so you integrate that.

02:05:29.560 And it's horrible because you

02:05:30.540 have to look at your own

02:05:31.680 capacity for anger.

02:05:33.740 And lots of people make a

02:05:34.900 decision in their life.

02:05:36.200 Anger is wrong.

02:05:37.640 I will never be angry.

02:05:39.460 It's like, sorry, that's not

02:05:40.860 good enough for life, man.

02:05:42.460 That's a major motivation.

02:05:45.020 And you dispense with it.

02:05:46.380 You can't dispense with it.

02:05:47.600 It's a living thing.

02:05:48.980 There's no dispensing with it.

02:05:50.740 You can either be its master

02:05:53.920 or its servant.

02:05:55.000 Those are your options.

02:05:55.940 But there's no getting rid of

02:05:57.040 it.

02:05:57.960 So that's the shadow and that's

02:06:00.440 the reason for integrate it.

02:06:03.440 How do you reconcile with

02:06:12.960 family members that have

02:06:14.240 untreated mental illnesses?

02:06:17.900 Oh, well, sometimes you can't.

02:06:20.740 I mean, sometimes you can't.

02:06:23.380 You know, I mean, the thing

02:06:24.580 about illnesses is sometimes

02:06:26.160 they're, well, first of all,

02:06:27.840 sometimes they're fatal, right?

02:06:29.260 People die.

02:06:30.900 And sometimes they're

02:06:32.300 catastrophic.

02:06:33.700 You know, like if you have a

02:06:34.620 family member who's a paranoid

02:06:36.060 schizophrenic and they're

02:06:37.580 untreated, generally

02:06:39.300 pharmacologically, it's like

02:06:40.620 it's just going to be absolute

02:06:41.600 hell for you.

02:06:42.920 And you can do your best.

02:06:44.560 You can try to help the person

02:06:46.300 out.

02:06:46.580 You can open up your heart

02:06:48.560 and your house to them.

02:06:49.940 But you've got a hell of a

02:06:51.600 problem on your hands.

02:06:52.560 And there isn't any reason

02:06:53.640 whatsoever to assume that

02:06:54.960 that you'll be able to do it

02:06:56.660 without being part and parcel

02:06:58.840 of the catastrophe.

02:07:00.140 It's just brutal.

02:07:01.940 So, and then I would say,

02:07:06.960 and this also makes the

02:07:08.580 commentary in some sense,

02:07:10.240 I wouldn't say useless,

02:07:11.220 but the devil's in the details.

02:07:14.900 You know, each person's mental

02:07:17.500 illness is quite the

02:07:19.240 idiosyncratic catastrophe.

02:07:21.280 And how you're going to deal

02:07:22.800 with that in your family is

02:07:24.180 going to be something that's

02:07:25.160 very difficult to think through.

02:07:26.960 I would say that's another

02:07:28.360 situation where you might want

02:07:29.760 some professional help to go

02:07:31.200 talk to someone and to

02:07:32.140 strategize.

02:07:32.820 Because sometimes one of the

02:07:34.620 problems with having a family

02:07:36.160 member who's really mentally

02:07:37.820 ill is that you can't tell where

02:07:39.440 their mental illness stops and

02:07:41.820 your insanity begins.

02:07:43.600 It gets really confusing.

02:07:45.720 And so sometimes you need

02:07:46.840 someone from the outside who's

02:07:48.520 seen a lot of that, who can

02:07:49.840 tell you, oh yeah, it's no

02:07:51.380 wonder you're completely

02:07:52.120 overwhelmed by that.

02:07:53.600 That's completely overwhelming.

02:07:55.920 No one could deal with that.

02:07:57.560 And to help you put proper

02:07:58.860 boundaries around it so that

02:08:00.180 you don't get, there's this

02:08:02.040 old rule if you're a lifeguard,

02:08:03.760 you know, and someone's

02:08:04.440 drowning and they're panicking,

02:08:05.980 you swim up to them like this.

02:08:08.560 Right?

02:08:08.800 And you basically tell them

02:08:10.080 calm down or I'm not going to

02:08:13.900 rescue you.

02:08:15.120 And the reason you do that is

02:08:16.180 because you get close and they

02:08:17.900 grab you around the neck and

02:08:19.720 then you both die.

02:08:21.720 And that's one drowning person

02:08:24.020 is two drowning people is not

02:08:26.740 better than one drowning person.

02:08:29.080 And that's a rule of thumb that

02:08:30.520 you have to use too when you're

02:08:31.680 trying to deal with a family

02:08:32.720 member who's enveloped in that

02:08:34.180 kind of catastrophe.

02:08:35.260 It's like you going down for the

02:08:37.640 account with them is not

02:08:38.720 helpful.

02:08:39.720 That's why you put an oxygen

02:08:40.800 mask on first if you're an

02:08:42.140 adult in an airplane before you

02:08:43.480 put it on your child.

02:08:45.060 And so you might need to talk to

02:08:46.260 someone and say, well, you know,

02:08:47.680 here's what we can offer without

02:08:50.220 the catastrophe spreading.

02:08:52.100 And sometimes that's just not

02:08:53.420 enough to...

02:08:54.920 It's all you can do to encapsulate

02:08:58.080 it and it's still a bloody tragedy

02:09:00.140 and that's the best you can

02:09:01.460 manage.

02:09:02.900 And that's horrible, but it's not

02:09:06.320 as horrible as it could be without

02:09:07.880 the management.

02:09:09.480 So lots of times the reason that

02:09:13.040 people are suffering isn't because

02:09:14.420 they're doing something wrong,

02:09:16.660 although that can certainly

02:09:17.620 exaggerate.

02:09:18.300 Sometimes you're suffering just

02:09:19.460 because those are the brutal facts

02:09:21.200 on the ground right in front of you.

02:09:22.740 And your best task under those

02:09:24.600 circumstances is to endure.

02:09:27.040 That's what you've got.

02:09:28.260 Chapter 12 is about that.

02:09:29.660 Pet a cat when you encounter one

02:09:30.960 on the street.

02:09:31.580 It's like, well, what do you do

02:09:32.920 when it's just too bloody much?

02:09:35.860 And the answer is something like,

02:09:37.440 narrow your time frame.

02:09:39.660 I can't cope with the next month.

02:09:41.980 Okay, can you cope with the next

02:09:43.220 week?

02:09:44.620 No.

02:09:45.240 Can you cope with the next day?

02:09:48.360 Maybe.

02:09:49.060 Can you cope with the next hour?

02:09:50.640 Yes.

02:09:51.320 Cope with the next hour.

02:09:53.740 Then cope with the next hour.

02:09:56.020 You know, sometimes you're in

02:09:57.040 that situation.

02:09:58.220 And if you have a very ill family

02:10:00.120 member, sometimes you're in that

02:10:01.280 situation for a long time.

02:10:02.480 And then you get through the

02:10:03.380 bitter hours the best you

02:10:04.540 possibly can.

02:10:05.480 And that's the best you can do.

02:10:07.140 And it's not because there's

02:10:08.240 something wrong with you.

02:10:09.120 It's because a tragedy is

02:10:12.240 unfolding.

02:10:13.280 It's real.

02:10:14.960 So, yeah, that happens a lot to

02:10:18.340 people.

02:10:18.740 It's too bad.

02:10:19.360 True.

02:10:21.240 Okay.

02:10:22.260 Well...

02:10:22.800 I want to be the first to

02:10:33.380 congratulate you upon finishing

02:10:35.020 your tour of 25 cities.

02:10:37.000 your...

02:10:38.000 And let's have another continued

02:10:44.620 round of applause for the send-off

02:10:46.420 for Dr. Jordan Peterson.

02:10:47.880 Thank you.

02:10:48.000 Thank you.

02:10:48.380 Thank you very much.

02:11:05.660 It was a pleasure to speak with all

02:11:08.580 of you.

02:11:09.540 So, good night.

02:11:11.080 If you found this conversation

02:11:12.960 meaningful, you might think about

02:11:14.520 picking up Dad's books, Maps of

02:11:16.420 Meaning, The Architecture of

02:11:17.660 Belief, or his newer bestseller,

02:11:20.000 12 Rules for Life, An Antidote to

02:11:21.960 Chaos.

02:11:23.040 Both of these works delve much

02:11:24.760 deeper into the topics covered in

02:11:26.420 the Jordan B.

02:11:27.020 Peterson podcast.

02:11:28.740 See jordanbpeterson.com for audio,

02:11:31.240 e-book, and text links, or pick up

02:11:33.340 the books at your favorite bookseller.

02:11:35.540 Next week, Dad will be speaking to Dr.

02:11:37.840 Stephen R.C. Hicks, Professor of

02:11:40.100 Philosophy at Rockford University,

02:11:41.980 Illinois, Executive Director of the

02:11:44.540 Center for Ethics and

02:11:45.560 Entrepreneurship, and Senior

02:11:47.380 Scholar at the Atlas Society.

02:11:50.040 Dr. Hicks received his Bachelor

02:11:51.580 and Master's degrees from the

02:11:53.020 University of Guelph in Canada, and

02:11:55.000 his PhD in Philosophy from Indiana

02:11:57.140 University in the U.S.

02:11:59.040 He has published four books,

02:12:01.280 translated into 16 different

02:12:02.920 languages, including Explaining

02:12:05.000 Postmodernism, Skepticism and

02:12:07.460 Socialism from Rousseau to Foucault.

02:12:09.760 That book discussed his take on the

02:12:11.460 state of the humanities, in

02:12:12.840 particular, and the origin of the

02:12:14.760 strange blend of skeptical

02:12:16.140 postmodernism and Marxist political

02:12:18.480 philosophy that seems increasingly to

02:12:20.600 be characterizing so much of the

02:12:22.120 modern university.

02:12:23.660 Yeah, Dr. Hicks' book explaining

02:12:26.280 postmodernism has been quite

02:12:28.720 controversial.

02:12:30.840 The professional philosophy community

02:12:33.860 has taken to it quite warmly, I would

02:12:36.840 say, but scholars from the

02:12:39.020 disciplines that are characterized by

02:12:41.840 postmodernism have been very

02:12:43.580 critical of his thought.

02:12:45.380 The people who are just already

02:12:46.780 critical of everything.

02:12:48.220 Well, I guess they're particularly

02:12:50.640 critical of his analysis of

02:12:53.120 postmodernism and its relationship

02:12:55.100 to Marxism.

02:12:56.240 Anyways, we discussed the current state

02:12:58.140 of the universities and also the

02:13:00.440 effect on his personal life of having

02:13:02.200 written this book and his plans for

02:13:04.120 the future.

02:13:04.800 And I think the discussion was very

02:13:08.040 interesting and I hope people will

02:13:09.700 find it extraordinarily worthwhile.

02:13:12.540 So we hope to see you all, so to speak,

02:13:16.060 next week.

02:13:17.500 Thanks very much.

02:13:18.920 Thank you.

02:13:19.500 Bye-bye.

02:13:20.120 Follow me on my YouTube channel,

02:13:22.620 Jordan B. Peterson, on Twitter,

02:13:24.940 at Jordan B. Peterson, on Facebook,

02:13:27.780 at Dr. Jordan B. Peterson, and at

02:13:30.160 Instagram, at jordan.b.peterson.

02:13:33.240 Details on this show, access to my

02:13:35.960 blog, information about my tour dates

02:13:38.520 and other events, and my list of

02:13:40.340 recommended books can be found on my

02:13:42.540 website, jordanbpeterson.com.

02:13:45.360 My online writing programs, designed to

02:13:48.000 help people straighten out their pasts,

02:13:50.340 understand themselves in the present,

02:13:52.220 and develop a sophisticated vision and

02:13:54.220 strategy for the future, can be found

02:13:56.200 at selfauthoring.com.

02:13:58.380 That's selfauthoring.com.

02:14:01.640 From the Westwood One Podcast Network.

The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast - April 28, 2019

12 Rules Thousand Oaks： Truth in Speech, and Meaning

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