The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast - 147. Carl Rogers (Humanism & Phenomenology)

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00:00:51.040 Welcome to episode 36 of the Jordan B. Peterson podcast.

00:00:58.400 I'm Mikayla Peterson, bringer of podcast episodes and reader of ads.

00:01:02.900 This episode is on Carl Rogers and is part of the ongoing personality series.

00:01:07.540 In this lecture, 10th in the 2017 series, Dad begins to talk about Dr. Carl Rogers, a humanist psychotherapist in the phenomenological tradition.

00:01:16.740 I can't believe I said that right, and an expert on listening and embodied wisdom.

00:01:22.720 Dr. Rogers offers very profound and practical lessons on the value of truthful relationships.

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00:02:51.180 So we're going to leap out of the psychoanalytic domain now and start talking about a form of approach to personality

00:03:19.720 and its transformations that's predicated on a different, a set of different philosophical assumptions.

00:03:28.560 And it's a bit tricky to navigate this because it requires the adoption of a different frame of mind.

00:03:36.740 And, of course, that's the case with all the theorists that we're going to be discussing.

00:03:46.760 Phenomenology probably had its most thorough explication in the philosophy of Martin Heidegger.

00:03:58.180 And Heidegger was actually trying to reconstruct Western philosophy from the bottom up.

00:04:10.300 He thought that we had been pursuing an improper pathway conceptually really ever since the time of the ancient Greeks.

00:04:19.660 Back around the turn of the century, the previous century, from the 19th to the 20th century,

00:04:31.860 a new form of geometry was invented.

00:04:36.260 And that geometry was predicated on different axioms than Euclidean geometry.

00:04:41.200 Now, people had thought for thousands of years that the world was properly described by Euclidean geometry.

00:04:47.400 And, you know, when you employ a system like Euclidean geometry, you have, there's axioms that you have to accept.

00:04:55.020 And they're like the rules of the game.

00:04:56.460 And once you accept the axioms, then you can go ahead and play the game.

00:04:59.380 But there were other forms of geometry invented in the later part of the 19th century.

00:05:08.540 And it turned out that those forms with different axioms actually described the world better than the Euclidean forms.

00:05:15.860 Sort of like the transformation from Newton to Einstein.

00:05:20.300 This was the transformation from Euclid to say, I think I've got his name right,

00:05:25.200 Riemann, R-I-E-M-A-N-N, who developed a new form of geometry.

00:05:29.600 And it turned out to be just the geometry that Einstein needed when he was putting his theories forward.

00:05:34.520 And the reason I'm telling you that is because you can think of systems that have different axioms as different tools.

00:05:43.700 Same idea that Piaget was trying to express when he talked about how children's cognitive representations underwent stage transformations

00:05:54.580 so that they were starting to apply new principles.

00:05:57.260 Not only a new way of looking at the world, but they were fundamentally retooling their presumptions about how the world operated.

00:06:05.040 And Heidegger tried to do the same thing with philosophy.

00:06:08.760 And so, and it's tricky to figure out exactly what he was talking about,

00:06:13.500 but I'll give it a shot and then we can move forward with Rogers.

00:06:17.220 So, since the dawn of the scientific world, and likely before that,

00:06:23.480 we have tended to believe that we are subjects in a world of objects.

00:06:28.540 And that's obviously a very useful way to view the world.

00:06:32.660 And you can tell that because formalizing that in the form of science

00:06:36.560 has enabled us to extend control over the world in ways that we were not able to before.

00:06:43.920 To formulate the idea of an objective truth has been an extraordinarily useful maneuver.

00:06:50.720 And so, the idea roughly is that everyone's perceptions can be contaminated by their own biases

00:06:57.500 and their own fantasies, the subjective biases and fantasies.

00:07:01.280 And you can overcome that by stringently specifying the conditions under which an observation takes place.

00:07:08.420 So, that would be an experimental method.

00:07:11.280 Having multiple people view the consequences separately,

00:07:15.140 have them detail out what the consequences are,

00:07:17.720 and then look for commonalities across them.

00:07:19.500 And you think, well, the commonalities across the set of observations

00:07:22.780 constitute a description of the objective world.

00:07:26.220 And that's been insanely powerful.

00:07:29.940 Crazily powerful.

00:07:31.300 I mean, that's not all there is to the scientific method,

00:07:34.060 but it's a big part of it.

00:07:37.100 Now, there's an emergent problem with that, perhaps.

00:07:42.980 It's complicated, but one of the emergent problems with that is

00:07:46.460 maybe a consequence of stripping the subjectivity out of the world.

00:07:51.860 So, what science does is consider anything subjective a form of bias or error in the observation,

00:08:02.220 and then get rid of it.

00:08:03.180 And so, what you're left with when you formulate the scientific world

00:08:06.760 is a world that's stripped of subjectivity.

00:08:09.360 Now, the problem with that is that you're a subject.

00:08:11.720 And so, when you strip the world of its subjectivity,

00:08:14.000 that sort of leaves you isolated, like an isolated being

00:08:18.220 with no necessary connection to objective reality

00:08:22.660 in the midst of a set of impersonal facts.

00:08:26.320 And that seems to have psychological consequences.

00:08:30.020 And the psychological consequences are that,

00:08:33.200 well, for example,

00:08:34.240 I think it's easier to develop a nihilistic sense of being,

00:08:38.260 for example, if you believe that the world is nothing but objects

00:08:42.520 and that you're fundamentally an object among many

00:08:47.340 and not a particularly important one at that.

00:08:51.120 So, there are psychological consequences to adopting the scientific worldview.

00:08:58.680 Prior to the emergence of the scientific worldview,

00:09:01.680 people were more embedded in what you might think about as a mythological landscape,

00:09:05.620 you know, where every element of being had its place

00:09:09.260 in something that approximated a master plan

00:09:11.660 or at least a meaningful plan.

00:09:13.660 And so, the idea of the meaningfulness of life

00:09:17.820 was not necessarily such a pressing intellectual concern.

00:09:23.060 And then, well, and so we don't know the full extent of that.

00:09:28.000 I mean, I've talked to you a little bit about Nietzsche's idea

00:09:31.040 expressed at the end of the 19th century about the death of God

00:09:34.380 and his prognostication that the collapse of classic systems of meaning

00:09:41.100 would open up people to possession by nihilism

00:09:44.800 and also by potentially totalitarian political systems.

00:09:48.480 And that seems to have been what happened.

00:09:50.460 Now, Heidegger was very concerned about that, among other things.

00:09:54.640 And so, he decided to reconsider reality from the bottom up.

00:10:02.300 And so, what he did was generate an alternative set of axioms.

00:10:05.400 He said something like,

00:10:07.060 well, what if we decide to make reality everything that we experience?

00:10:13.900 Forget about the subject-object divide.

00:10:15.360 One of the other problems with the subject-object divide, for example,

00:10:20.980 is accounting for consciousness, right?

00:10:22.640 Because it's a problem that science really hasn't got any distance with at all,

00:10:26.420 as far as I can tell.

00:10:27.800 I mean, people have been trying to crack the secret of consciousness,

00:10:30.460 obviously, for a very long time.

00:10:32.500 But they've been trying to do it formally

00:10:34.080 and using scientific methods

00:10:36.340 at least for the last 50 years.

00:10:38.860 And my sense of that is that they've got absolutely nowhere.

00:10:42.880 Maybe that's a bit unfair.

00:10:45.040 We're better at representing how conscious experiences

00:10:47.840 manifest themselves in the brain.

00:10:50.480 But we're certainly no better at understanding

00:10:52.620 how it is that we experience things.

00:10:55.620 And that's the problem of qualia.

00:10:58.160 That's how the philosophers describe it.

00:11:00.200 And qualia is the quality of your experience,

00:11:02.660 like the fact of pain, for example.

00:11:05.600 I mean, the pain you feel is by no means identical,

00:11:08.860 at least as far as you're concerned,

00:11:10.440 to some pattern of neurological activity, right?

00:11:13.560 It's pain.

00:11:14.380 It seems to be a fundamental reality of something.

00:11:17.300 In fact, I think pain is the fundamental reality.

00:11:19.580 I think it's the only thing that people will never deny.

00:11:23.940 But...

00:11:24.940 And so there are these aspects of your existence

00:11:28.100 that are subjective,

00:11:29.220 like your experience of color and your experience of beauty

00:11:31.540 and just your experience of things

00:11:33.460 or maybe just your experience.

00:11:35.400 And your experience plays an indeterminate role

00:11:39.260 in the structure of being itself.

00:11:42.200 Because you might ask,

00:11:43.060 well, what would there be if there was nothing conscious?

00:11:46.480 And you could say,

00:11:47.420 well,

00:11:48.560 what would there be if there was nothing conscious of being?

00:11:51.820 Well, it's a tricky question

00:11:53.540 because it depends on your a priori axioms.

00:11:57.860 But it's not obvious what there would be

00:12:00.420 in the absence of a conscious observer.

00:12:02.920 There wouldn't obviously be any duration between things.

00:12:06.720 It would be very difficult to specify things

00:12:08.760 in terms of size.

00:12:10.620 There wouldn't be any of the qualities

00:12:12.320 that we experience our being as having

00:12:16.180 because color doesn't seem to be

00:12:17.800 an intrinsic part of the world.

00:12:19.560 Smell doesn't seem to be an intrinsic part of the world.

00:12:22.840 It's very difficult.

00:12:24.260 The more you think about it,

00:12:25.280 you'd find the more difficult it is

00:12:26.740 to determine exactly what there would be

00:12:29.040 if there was no one to observe it.

00:12:31.520 And that's not the tree in the forest idea precisely.

00:12:34.580 It's not so much if a tree falls in the forest

00:12:37.320 and there's no one to hear it,

00:12:38.480 does it make a sound?

00:12:39.700 Because that's more a matter of the definition of sound

00:12:42.120 than anything else.

00:12:42.980 This is more like if there's a tree in the forest

00:12:45.440 and there isn't any one,

00:12:47.020 is there a tree?

00:12:48.480 And that's a whole different question.

00:12:50.700 Anyway, so what Heidegger did,

00:12:53.100 partly because he was not pleased, I suppose,

00:12:57.300 with the metaphysical consequences

00:12:59.480 of the scientific worldview,

00:13:01.300 and also perhaps because he wasn't very happy

00:13:04.920 about our ability to account for consciousness,

00:13:07.340 he decided to see what would happen

00:13:09.960 if he played a different kind of game.

00:13:11.780 And you can do that in an intellectual discussion.

00:13:14.780 You know, you can say,

00:13:15.600 well, here's a set of axioms

00:13:17.520 out of which a system will emerge,

00:13:19.620 like here's a set of rules

00:13:21.100 out of which a game would emerge.

00:13:23.140 Same idea.

00:13:24.800 What if we start with a different set of rules?

00:13:26.680 Let's see what we can do if we do that.

00:13:29.140 You kind of do that when you play one video game

00:13:31.120 rather than another.

00:13:32.220 You know, there are little worlds that pop out.

00:13:34.220 There's a different underlying structure,

00:13:36.660 and then you can go inside that world

00:13:37.920 and experiment with it

00:13:38.940 and see what comes out of it.

00:13:42.680 So Heidegger decided to say,

00:13:44.620 well, okay, what we're going to do instead

00:13:45.860 is we're going to assume

00:13:46.720 that everything we experience is real.

00:13:49.020 We're going to make our field of experience itself reality.

00:13:53.060 And so that would mean from Heidegger's point of view

00:13:57.180 that everything about the being that manifests itself to you

00:14:04.800 is to be regarded as equally real.

00:14:06.520 So then you think,

00:14:07.220 well, that makes pain a fundamental reality.

00:14:09.440 That makes anxiety a fundamental reality.

00:14:11.740 It makes beauty and color fundamental realities.

00:14:14.920 They're not self-evidently reducible to anything else,

00:14:19.200 which they would be,

00:14:21.240 which they are in the scientific,

00:14:23.380 from the scientific perspective,

00:14:24.780 because you have to think about them as manifestations

00:14:27.040 of some more fundamental underlying material reality.

00:14:30.620 And I guess that's another problem

00:14:32.020 with the subject-object model

00:14:34.780 and the material model.

00:14:37.280 When you aggregate atoms,

00:14:39.820 when you arrange them in certain forms,

00:14:43.040 when they manifest themselves as certain molecules

00:14:45.740 and then in more complex structures,

00:14:47.200 they seem to take on all sorts of qualities

00:14:50.100 that you couldn't predict

00:14:51.240 if you just knew about the subatomic particles

00:14:54.800 and the atoms themselves.

00:14:56.140 And so, of course,

00:14:56.960 those are called emergent properties.

00:14:59.800 And you say, well, you can observe hydrogen

00:15:03.160 and you can observe oxygen,

00:15:04.460 but that doesn't make it self-evident

00:15:07.000 for you to be able to predict the properties of water.

00:15:10.420 And, of course, that's a much simpler problem,

00:15:12.980 all things considered,

00:15:14.160 than the problem of figuring you out.

00:15:15.920 You're this crazily complex aggregate

00:15:18.680 of these hypothetically simple entities,

00:15:22.000 but it isn't obvious

00:15:24.040 how their elemental properties

00:15:26.760 can combine to produce you.

00:15:29.360 It's not obvious at all.

00:15:31.160 It's certainly not obvious

00:15:32.240 how a material that's supposed to be dead matter,

00:15:35.700 so to speak,

00:15:36.940 can manifest consciousness

00:15:39.540 no matter how complexly it's arranged.

00:15:43.740 So, the phenomenologists,

00:15:49.540 Heidegger leading them,

00:15:51.880 were attempted to produce

00:15:53.780 a philosophical model of being.

00:15:55.800 And we'll talk more specifically

00:15:58.920 about the phenomenologists

00:16:00.300 after we're done with Rogers,

00:16:02.380 but he fits in that

00:16:04.300 philosophical framework.

00:16:09.220 And

00:16:09.440 one of the things that I've thought,

00:16:15.100 this is a bit of a tangent,

00:16:18.080 but I'll move back to the model afterwards.

00:16:20.140 See, I really like the psychoanalysts,

00:16:23.800 and I like the idea

00:16:25.060 that you have a psyche

00:16:26.020 that's inside of you,

00:16:27.180 and that that is structured

00:16:28.380 in partly consciously

00:16:29.640 and in part unconsciously.

00:16:31.600 There's something about that

00:16:32.520 that's really cool,

00:16:33.300 and I've learned a lot

00:16:34.140 from the psychoanalysts.

00:16:36.480 But, you know,

00:16:36.980 there is a funny consequence

00:16:39.120 of thinking the way they think,

00:16:40.820 and you do think the way they think,

00:16:42.700 even if you don't know it.

00:16:44.360 Like, we tend to think

00:16:45.400 that a lot of us

00:16:46.080 is inside our head.

00:16:47.540 You know,

00:16:48.020 that's the psyche model, basically.

00:16:50.500 But the more I've practiced

00:16:52.000 as a clinical psychologist,

00:16:53.540 the less I've actually been convinced

00:16:55.040 that that's true.

00:16:56.380 So, I could say,

00:16:57.340 well, let's say I want to know

00:16:58.660 about your personality.

00:17:00.640 We think, well, I want to know you.

00:17:02.020 I want to know

00:17:02.580 about your subjectivity.

00:17:04.520 I want to know what's inside of you.

00:17:06.200 But that isn't actually

00:17:07.100 what you do want to know

00:17:08.000 if you're doing clinical work,

00:17:09.620 say, with someone.

00:17:10.620 You want to know

00:17:11.660 do they have any friends?

00:17:15.020 That's really important

00:17:15.960 because if you're miserable

00:17:17.580 and anxious

00:17:18.220 and badly placed in life

00:17:20.260 and misbehaving,

00:17:22.040 one of the reasons

00:17:23.640 that all of that can occur

00:17:24.740 is because you don't have any friends.

00:17:25.940 You don't know anyone.

00:17:27.000 And that's not something

00:17:28.080 that's inside you.

00:17:30.280 It's you localized

00:17:31.620 in a broader sphere.

00:17:34.200 And then you might say,

00:17:34.960 well, do you have a job?

00:17:36.700 And, well, let's talk about the job.

00:17:38.400 Do you actually make enough money

00:17:39.480 with your job?

00:17:40.160 Is it satisfying

00:17:41.200 for you in any way?

00:17:42.700 Are you bullied all the time

00:17:43.920 when you're at work?

00:17:44.860 Does it provoke anxiety?

00:17:46.520 Is it a career

00:17:47.320 that allows you to go somewhere?

00:17:49.100 Are you overworked?

00:17:50.720 Well, but let's start

00:17:51.720 with just the first question.

00:17:53.060 Do you have a job?

00:17:54.500 Well, if the answer to that

00:17:55.400 is no,

00:17:56.820 you have a serious problem.

00:17:58.560 And that would enough

00:17:59.500 might be to depress you

00:18:01.000 and make you anxious

00:18:01.760 and hopeless and nihilistic

00:18:03.260 and all of those things.

00:18:04.140 And you could say,

00:18:05.380 well, you're not reacting

00:18:06.420 very well to not having a job.

00:18:08.260 But that's kind of

00:18:09.160 a foolish objection,

00:18:10.580 even though some of it

00:18:11.420 might be true.

00:18:12.340 One problem is

00:18:13.280 is that you're not reacting

00:18:14.240 very well to not having a job.

00:18:15.820 But another problem is

00:18:16.780 that you don't have a job.

00:18:18.100 And that actually constitutes

00:18:19.480 a problem, right?

00:18:20.940 You don't get to eat.

00:18:22.100 You don't have a place to live.

00:18:23.760 So those aren't

00:18:24.160 psychological problems,

00:18:25.680 precisely,

00:18:26.180 even though a psychological problem

00:18:27.800 could make it worse.

00:18:29.660 Well, are you as educated

00:18:31.120 as you should be?

00:18:32.240 That's another question.

00:18:33.420 How do you handle

00:18:34.200 drugs and alcohol?

00:18:35.140 Are they taking you

00:18:35.740 down a bad pathway?

00:18:37.340 You know,

00:18:38.180 what about

00:18:40.080 intimate relationships?

00:18:41.400 Do you have one?

00:18:42.240 Do you have a plan for one?

00:18:43.560 Or is that a never-ending

00:18:44.800 series of catastrophes

00:18:46.120 or something that

00:18:46.740 you avoid completely?

00:18:48.100 That's a big problem.

00:18:49.540 And maybe people don't,

00:18:51.140 aren't attracted to you

00:18:52.060 for one reason or another.

00:18:53.040 And you could think about

00:18:53.980 that as a psychological problem.

00:18:55.320 But it's an interpersonal problem.

00:18:57.460 And the degree to which

00:18:59.420 that's a psychological problem

00:19:00.720 is certainly unspecified

00:19:03.740 when you first begin

00:19:04.600 to talk to somebody.

00:19:05.520 What about your family?

00:19:06.560 Do you have a family?

00:19:08.140 Because it's hard to be

00:19:08.960 in the world all by yourself.

00:19:10.360 That's for sure.

00:19:11.440 It makes things

00:19:12.080 a lot more stressful,

00:19:13.160 even though having a family

00:19:14.420 can also be

00:19:15.160 extraordinarily stressful.

00:19:16.940 You know,

00:19:17.280 do you have plans

00:19:17.980 to have children?

00:19:18.940 How are you doing

00:19:19.640 with your parents?

00:19:20.580 Do you get along

00:19:21.140 with your siblings?

00:19:22.600 You know,

00:19:22.820 all of that,

00:19:23.600 all of that,

00:19:24.520 to me,

00:19:25.200 is more fundamental.

00:19:26.100 And it's outside of you.

00:19:27.460 Those are elements

00:19:28.240 of your experience

00:19:29.420 more broadly conceptualized

00:19:32.040 more than they are

00:19:33.000 objects of your psychology

00:19:34.580 or of your internal experience.

00:19:37.180 You know,

00:19:37.460 it's sort of like...

00:19:38.000 Going online without ExpressVPN

00:19:43.940 is like not paying attention

00:19:45.360 to the safety demonstration

00:19:46.420 on a flight.

00:19:47.540 Most of the time,

00:19:48.280 you'll probably be fine,

00:19:49.620 but what if one day

00:19:50.760 that weird yellow mask

00:19:51.980 drops down from overhead

00:19:53.000 and you have no idea

00:19:54.500 what to do?

00:19:55.300 In our hyper-connected world,

00:19:56.780 your digital privacy

00:19:57.720 isn't just a luxury.

00:19:59.060 It's a fundamental right.

00:20:00.420 Every time you connect

00:20:01.200 to an unsecured network

00:20:02.380 in a cafe,

00:20:03.340 hotel,

00:20:03.740 or airport,

00:20:04.680 you're essentially

00:20:05.240 broadcasting your personal

00:20:06.440 information to anyone

00:20:07.680 with a technical know-how

00:20:08.820 to intercept it.

00:20:09.760 And let's be clear,

00:20:10.600 it doesn't take a genius

00:20:11.700 hacker to do this.

00:20:12.960 With some off-the-shelf

00:20:13.920 hardware,

00:20:14.520 even a tech-savvy teenager

00:20:15.920 could potentially access

00:20:17.060 your passwords,

00:20:18.080 bank logins,

00:20:18.840 and credit card details.

00:20:20.340 Now,

00:20:20.760 you might think,

00:20:21.560 what's the big deal?

00:20:22.440 Who'd want my data anyway?

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00:22:29.460 While a person

00:22:30.360 is a creature

00:22:32.240 that exists

00:22:32.820 at multiple levels

00:22:33.640 of analysis,

00:22:35.200 right?

00:22:35.680 Something might go

00:22:36.600 wrong with you

00:22:37.260 at a cellular level,

00:22:38.400 so maybe you're born

00:22:39.260 with a genetic abnormality,

00:22:41.020 so something's wrong

00:22:41.880 with you molecularly,

00:22:43.260 or you have something

00:22:44.360 wrong with a major organ,

00:22:46.140 or maybe there's something

00:22:47.100 wrong with you psychologically,

00:22:48.400 or maybe you're

00:22:49.180 in a pathological family,

00:22:50.440 or maybe you're stuck

00:22:51.820 in a pathological

00:22:52.640 social system.

00:22:54.560 And figuring out

00:22:55.740 why you're suffering

00:22:57.360 means going up

00:22:59.060 and down those

00:22:59.600 different levels,

00:23:00.300 trying to specify

00:23:01.120 the appropriate level

00:23:02.440 for analysis,

00:23:03.220 and also the appropriate

00:23:04.120 level for intervention.

00:23:05.760 And for me,

00:23:06.720 as I've said,

00:23:07.540 even though I'm a great

00:23:08.480 admirer of the psychoanalysts

00:23:09.900 and I do things

00:23:10.560 like dream analysis,

00:23:11.480 which I really find

00:23:12.760 incredibly useful

00:23:14.420 and enlightening,

00:23:15.740 the first,

00:23:16.320 the fundamental level

00:23:17.100 of analysis is,

00:23:17.960 well, what's your experience

00:23:18.840 structured like exactly?

00:23:21.000 And that isn't localized

00:23:22.100 in you.

00:23:22.960 Now, the behaviorists

00:23:23.960 do that too,

00:23:24.780 because it's one of the

00:23:26.180 things I really like

00:23:26.820 about the behavioral

00:23:27.540 approach to psychotherapy.

00:23:28.760 It's very, very concrete

00:23:29.720 and practical.

00:23:30.460 It's like,

00:23:31.280 they'll say,

00:23:31.820 well,

00:23:32.640 there's certain things

00:23:33.780 that you need to have

00:23:34.520 in order to live properly,

00:23:35.680 and maybe you don't have

00:23:36.480 the skills or the

00:23:37.320 wherewithal to accumulate

00:23:39.260 them,

00:23:39.640 and we'll break them down

00:23:40.740 into tiny little pieces

00:23:41.700 and you'll practice.

00:23:42.600 So, for example,

00:23:43.800 with someone who doesn't

00:23:44.600 have any friends,

00:23:45.440 then you do a microanalysis

00:23:47.000 of their social skills,

00:23:48.920 say,

00:23:49.180 and maybe an analysis

00:23:50.420 of the kinds of anxiety

00:23:51.820 that are stopping them

00:23:52.920 from going out

00:23:53.560 and meeting people,

00:23:54.580 and then you address

00:23:55.540 those things practically

00:23:56.640 one by one.

00:23:57.500 You try to get the person

00:23:58.380 to have some friends.

00:23:59.520 You try to figure out

00:24:00.220 how they can establish

00:24:01.460 an intimate relationship.

00:24:02.720 You see if you can help

00:24:03.900 them sort out their family.

00:24:05.160 You do what you can

00:24:05.940 about their employment,

00:24:07.000 and a lot of that's

00:24:08.240 only tangentially related

00:24:09.580 to really in some sense

00:24:11.080 to the structure

00:24:11.680 of their psyche.

00:24:12.880 But one of the things

00:24:13.740 you'll see if you work

00:24:15.180 as a clinician

00:24:16.080 or as a counselor

00:24:17.120 is that most of the time

00:24:18.540 people come and see you

00:24:19.400 because they have problems,

00:24:20.440 not because they have

00:24:21.100 psychological problems.

00:24:23.080 And those things

00:24:23.820 are not that easy

00:24:24.540 to distinguish.

00:24:25.980 You know,

00:24:26.220 it's sort of the

00:24:26.760 psychoanalytic idea

00:24:27.760 is sort of like,

00:24:28.340 well, if you just got

00:24:29.100 your act together,

00:24:29.900 everything would work

00:24:30.640 out for you.

00:24:31.520 It's like,

00:24:32.260 yeah,

00:24:33.260 there's some truth

00:24:36.960 in that.

00:24:38.460 But,

00:24:39.580 but, you know,

00:24:42.640 if you're 55 years old

00:24:43.940 and you've just been

00:24:44.540 laid off work

00:24:45.360 and maybe through

00:24:47.780 no fault of your own,

00:24:49.720 it isn't obvious

00:24:51.620 how much getting

00:24:52.340 your act together

00:24:53.020 is going to help

00:24:53.580 you find another job

00:24:54.660 because the actual

00:24:56.540 problem that you're

00:24:57.340 facing may have

00:24:58.700 relatively little

00:25:00.000 to do with you.

00:25:00.920 And that would

00:25:01.260 especially be the case

00:25:02.240 if you're maybe

00:25:03.960 on the bottom half

00:25:04.860 of the intelligence

00:25:05.620 distribution,

00:25:06.520 for example.

00:25:07.160 And so it isn't

00:25:08.400 as easy for you

00:25:09.160 just to go out

00:25:09.920 and pick up new skills

00:25:11.620 at the drop of a hat,

00:25:13.420 you know,

00:25:13.820 and that gets harder

00:25:14.580 as you get older

00:25:15.280 because your IQ

00:25:15.960 actually declines

00:25:16.780 quite substantially

00:25:17.560 as you get older.

00:25:18.800 The working,

00:25:19.780 or the fluid

00:25:21.000 intelligence part,

00:25:21.920 anyways,

00:25:22.540 exercise can keep

00:25:23.980 that at bay,

00:25:24.540 by the way.

00:25:24.980 It's the best way

00:25:25.540 to keep that at bay.

00:25:27.320 So anyways,

00:25:28.440 you can think

00:25:30.060 from the phenomenological

00:25:31.060 viewpoint of

00:25:31.940 your experience

00:25:33.280 as a whole

00:25:34.080 instead of you

00:25:35.580 being a subject

00:25:36.300 in an objective world.

00:25:37.440 And so here's

00:25:38.200 another way of,

00:25:39.340 here's something

00:25:39.980 that's quite useful.

00:25:41.240 Jung talked about this

00:25:42.140 because he was moving

00:25:42.780 towards a phenomenological

00:25:43.900 perspective later

00:25:44.820 in his life.

00:25:45.520 The last book he wrote

00:25:46.480 was called

00:25:46.980 Mysterium Conjunctionis

00:25:48.200 and he talked about

00:25:49.500 three conjunctions

00:25:51.460 that needed to take place

00:25:52.760 in order for someone

00:25:53.880 to be well-constituted

00:25:55.280 psychologically.

00:25:56.660 And you know

00:25:57.080 how Piaget talked

00:25:58.120 about learning

00:25:59.940 that you could

00:26:00.560 not only follow rules

00:26:02.220 but that you could

00:26:02.880 make rules for new games

00:26:04.280 as sort of the highest

00:26:05.040 level of moral development?

00:26:06.520 I would say

00:26:07.060 Jung extended

00:26:09.340 the Piagetian

00:26:10.300 moral continuum

00:26:11.440 up past

00:26:12.700 what Piaget

00:26:13.640 had envisioned.

00:26:14.560 Now he didn't

00:26:15.460 he didn't do that

00:26:16.240 because he wasn't

00:26:16.720 trying to extend

00:26:17.480 Piaget's model

00:26:18.340 but you can think

00:26:20.340 about it the same way.

00:26:21.680 It's not easy

00:26:22.240 to come up

00:26:23.080 with a moral

00:26:23.660 mode of being

00:26:25.900 say that transcends

00:26:27.100 the ability

00:26:27.620 to make rules

00:26:28.260 for new games.

00:26:28.980 That's damn smart man.

00:26:30.320 That's a major

00:26:31.500 home run by Piaget

00:26:33.000 as far as I'm concerned.

00:26:33.900 But Jung said

00:26:34.480 something like this.

00:26:35.700 He said look

00:26:36.140 when you're going

00:26:37.280 through the process

00:26:37.980 of psychological integration.

00:26:41.640 Here's a way

00:26:42.320 of conceptualizing it

00:26:43.280 and he thought

00:26:43.800 about this as

00:26:44.620 symbolically

00:26:46.680 as male-female pairings

00:26:48.320 because

00:26:48.740 as I've tried

00:26:50.200 to point out

00:26:50.780 the most

00:26:51.840 one of the most

00:26:52.500 fundamental categories

00:26:53.980 that our mythological

00:26:55.240 imagination

00:26:55.840 uses to structure

00:26:57.200 the world

00:26:57.640 is the category

00:26:58.300 of masculine

00:26:58.880 and feminine

00:26:59.420 and it moves

00:27:00.340 that around.

00:27:01.160 You know

00:27:01.320 it's a fundamental

00:27:02.160 metaphor

00:27:02.600 so you can move

00:27:03.340 that around anywhere

00:27:04.120 and so Jung thought

00:27:05.640 well one of the things

00:27:06.560 that you're trying to do

00:27:07.360 is to get your thoughts

00:27:08.980 and your emotions

00:27:09.860 integrated

00:27:11.020 and so you know

00:27:12.700 the classic

00:27:13.300 enlightenment viewpoint

00:27:14.420 roughly speaking

00:27:15.680 is something like

00:27:16.480 passion is the enemy

00:27:18.240 of reason

00:27:18.920 right

00:27:20.180 and so

00:27:20.600 to the degree

00:27:21.380 that you're rational

00:27:22.220 it's sort of

00:27:22.740 a Freudian viewpoint

00:27:23.480 it's because you got

00:27:24.040 your emotions

00:27:24.620 under control

00:27:25.460 and there's some

00:27:27.440 truth in that

00:27:28.060 but not enough truth

00:27:29.520 I like the Piagetian

00:27:30.740 idea better

00:27:31.440 which is that

00:27:32.340 no no

00:27:32.900 that isn't what happens

00:27:34.020 what happens

00:27:34.520 if you're playing

00:27:35.560 the proper game

00:27:36.300 is that

00:27:36.640 you integrate

00:27:37.700 your emotions

00:27:38.580 underneath your thinking

00:27:40.400 something like that

00:27:41.260 so they're all working

00:27:42.420 in the same direction

00:27:43.440 you know

00:27:43.840 so for example

00:27:45.040 you can make your anxiety

00:27:47.080 work against you

00:27:47.900 or for you

00:27:48.520 and one of the ways

00:27:50.020 I did

00:27:51.380 I made a program

00:27:52.380 called the future authoring program

00:27:53.760 that I think helps people do that

00:27:55.280 because one of the things

00:27:56.460 you see when you're talking

00:27:57.260 to people

00:27:57.620 and they're trying

00:27:58.100 to solve problems

00:27:58.780 is that they're afraid

00:27:59.840 to face the problem

00:28:00.940 and so then their anxiety

00:28:02.900 is working against them

00:28:03.900 and you can think about it

00:28:04.740 as antagonistic

00:28:06.600 to rationality

00:28:07.600 but then I could say

00:28:09.300 well

00:28:09.580 why don't you think

00:28:10.560 for a while

00:28:11.120 about what your life

00:28:12.260 would be like

00:28:12.780 if you didn't face

00:28:14.120 this problem

00:28:14.800 because if you think

00:28:16.540 that through

00:28:17.000 if you have a problem

00:28:17.860 and you really think

00:28:18.960 through

00:28:19.380 what the consequences

00:28:21.060 are going to be

00:28:21.640 in three to five years

00:28:22.520 of not facing it

00:28:23.540 then you're going to

00:28:24.520 get more afraid

00:28:25.180 of not facing it

00:28:26.100 than facing it

00:28:26.940 and that's great

00:28:27.960 because then your anxiety

00:28:29.240 instead of standing

00:28:30.280 in front of you

00:28:31.000 instead of having

00:28:32.800 a dragon

00:28:33.400 that's guarding

00:28:33.960 the path

00:28:34.360 in front of you

00:28:34.880 you have one

00:28:35.440 chasing you

00:28:36.200 down the path

00:28:36.940 from behind

00:28:37.700 that's a lot

00:28:38.780 more useful

00:28:39.440 and so

00:28:40.720 you know

00:28:41.720 that's just a

00:28:42.500 minimal example

00:28:44.340 of the utility

00:28:45.080 of getting your

00:28:45.820 emotions

00:28:46.360 and your

00:28:46.820 and your thoughts

00:28:48.340 aligned the same way

00:28:49.380 the same thing

00:28:50.120 happens with aggression

00:28:51.140 you know

00:28:52.420 one of the most

00:28:53.360 common reasons

00:28:54.020 that people come

00:28:54.760 and seek psychotherapy

00:28:55.740 really is because

00:28:56.960 they're too agreeable

00:28:57.840 but what that means

00:28:59.200 is they're not

00:28:59.700 assertive enough

00:29:00.300 they haven't integrated

00:29:01.200 their capacity for aggression

00:29:02.440 and so other people

00:29:03.120 can push them around

00:29:04.020 and they're very

00:29:06.080 conflict avoidant

00:29:07.660 and so

00:29:08.940 the consequences

00:29:09.940 of that across time

00:29:11.060 is that

00:29:11.500 you don't stand up

00:29:12.820 for yourself

00:29:13.280 well enough

00:29:14.040 and you get taken

00:29:15.020 advantage of

00:29:15.780 and that spirals

00:29:16.960 badly downward

00:29:17.860 and so

00:29:18.340 partly what you do

00:29:19.800 when you're

00:29:20.300 doing assertiveness

00:29:22.860 training with people

00:29:23.640 is you find out

00:29:24.280 what they're angry about

00:29:25.280 and

00:29:26.220 they're usually angry

00:29:27.780 if they're not

00:29:28.880 assertive enough

00:29:29.460 because other people

00:29:30.200 are taking advantage

00:29:30.980 of them

00:29:31.260 or you could say

00:29:32.080 because they're not

00:29:32.660 putting their own

00:29:33.520 necessities forward

00:29:35.700 with enough force

00:29:36.660 it's hard to distinguish

00:29:37.540 between those two things

00:29:38.640 but anyways

00:29:39.920 you

00:29:40.220 you try

00:29:41.560 you get them to talk

00:29:42.420 about what they're angry about

00:29:43.340 that often makes them cry

00:29:44.520 often many times

00:29:46.320 and then you get them

00:29:47.520 to kind of envision

00:29:48.400 what they would want

00:29:49.680 to have instead

00:29:50.440 which they're often

00:29:51.580 afraid to do

00:29:52.400 because people are afraid

00:29:53.600 to think about

00:29:54.620 what they want

00:29:55.340 because that makes it

00:29:56.740 more clear

00:29:57.300 when they're not getting it

00:29:58.500 and that's painful

00:29:59.500 right or maybe

00:30:00.260 they're afraid of hoping

00:30:01.340 so they won't specify

00:30:02.480 a clear aim

00:30:03.260 but anyways

00:30:03.980 you get them to think

00:30:04.760 about what

00:30:05.220 they might want

00:30:06.300 instead

00:30:06.720 you get them to think

00:30:07.860 about the costs

00:30:08.720 of not pursuing that

00:30:09.980 and then you help them

00:30:10.960 develop strategies

00:30:11.880 for integrating

00:30:13.320 their aggression

00:30:14.900 and with their thinking

00:30:17.080 so that they can come up

00:30:18.100 with a plan

00:30:18.820 to approach the world

00:30:20.360 in a more confident way

00:30:21.780 so for example

00:30:22.480 someone might come to me

00:30:23.460 and say I'm being

00:30:24.060 bullied badly at work

00:30:25.500 and so then I'll say

00:30:27.080 well what are your options

00:30:28.440 do you have to put up

00:30:30.200 with it

00:30:30.560 well we'll figure that out

00:30:32.340 because maybe you do

00:30:33.060 maybe you don't have options

00:30:34.080 but here's how to find out

00:30:35.520 get your damn CV together

00:30:37.220 so it's pristine

00:30:38.820 right

00:30:39.440 it's ready to go

00:30:40.900 get over your fear

00:30:42.160 of a new interview

00:30:43.040 because people are

00:30:44.160 generally afraid of that

00:30:45.100 get over your fear

00:30:46.120 of applying for a new job

00:30:47.480 start thinking about

00:30:48.280 what it would mean

00:30:49.060 to have a different job

00:30:50.400 start thinking about

00:30:51.660 what it would mean

00:30:52.500 to have a better job

00:30:53.640 even

00:30:53.960 because maybe

00:30:54.940 your fear is just

00:30:56.140 making you stuck here

00:30:57.140 but I can tell you one thing

00:30:58.280 if someone's picking on you

00:30:59.600 at work

00:30:59.980 and you don't have options

00:31:01.220 you lose

00:31:02.300 so you get the person

00:31:04.220 to start building a strategy

00:31:05.560 it's like okay

00:31:06.260 if you're going to tell

00:31:07.200 this person to stop

00:31:09.040 you have to know

00:31:10.440 how to make them stop

00:31:11.460 and the one thing

00:31:12.560 you need for sure

00:31:13.260 is an option

00:31:14.140 and if you can't

00:31:15.380 if you don't have an option

00:31:17.300 then maybe we start

00:31:18.160 thinking about

00:31:18.740 the fact that you need

00:31:19.700 some more training

00:31:20.520 or something like that

00:31:21.460 because you cannot negotiate

00:31:23.100 if you don't have any power

00:31:24.360 so because while

00:31:26.360 especially if you're dealing

00:31:27.340 with someone who's

00:31:28.120 really out to get you

00:31:29.380 or really disagreeable

00:31:30.400 if you don't have a leg

00:31:31.680 to stand on

00:31:32.280 they'll just push you over

00:31:33.280 and maybe they'll jump on you too

00:31:34.560 because that's what they're like

00:31:35.580 and they enjoy it anyway

00:31:36.460 so it's no joke

00:31:37.880 so you put your options

00:31:41.020 behind you

00:31:41.600 and then you start to think

00:31:42.540 about strategy

00:31:43.240 so I tell people

00:31:44.140 look if you're being harassed

00:31:46.120 at work

00:31:46.520 you document it

00:31:47.440 every time it happens

00:31:48.200 and you write it down

00:31:48.900 so you've got like

00:31:49.740 20 stories about it

00:31:51.260 and it's fully documented

00:31:52.760 and then you go

00:31:53.800 confront the person

00:31:54.560 at some point

00:31:55.140 but with at least

00:31:55.960 three pieces of evidence

00:31:57.260 and you have some sense

00:31:58.920 of what you tell them

00:31:59.780 about what will happen

00:32:00.920 if they don't stop

00:32:02.220 so you have to figure out

00:32:03.740 well if they don't stop

00:32:05.180 what are you going to do

00:32:06.100 about it

00:32:06.520 leave

00:32:07.620 not if you can't leave

00:32:09.240 so you have to be able

00:32:11.160 to what is it

00:32:12.060 wield a big stick

00:32:12.980 and speak softly

00:32:14.040 but you see that way

00:32:15.640 it's that's how you

00:32:16.960 take your aggression

00:32:18.100 which is an absolutely

00:32:19.020 necessary part of your psyche

00:32:20.860 and manifest it up

00:32:22.620 into a sophisticated

00:32:24.160 means of dealing

00:32:25.660 with the world

00:32:26.140 you don't just suppress it

00:32:27.460 you say

00:32:27.700 well I should be able

00:32:28.400 to put up with it

00:32:29.240 or I wish I wasn't

00:32:30.440 so angry

00:32:31.020 or something

00:32:31.500 it's like forget that

00:32:32.680 that's

00:32:33.540 all that'll happen

00:32:35.020 is your blood pressure

00:32:35.840 will stay high

00:32:36.540 and you'll die

00:32:36.980 of a heart attack

00:32:37.580 because anger

00:32:38.200 for example

00:32:38.740 is a very toxic emotion

00:32:39.960 and it does cause

00:32:41.620 heart damage over time

00:32:42.640 it's the only emotion

00:32:43.620 that we really know

00:32:44.400 that's been linked

00:32:45.440 to things like

00:32:46.140 cardiovascular risk

00:32:47.180 and anger is toxic

00:32:48.860 because it's like

00:32:50.840 you're driving a car

00:32:51.700 you're stepping on the gas

00:32:52.900 and pushing on the brake

00:32:53.720 at the same time

00:32:54.500 because anger

00:32:55.120 tells you to run away

00:32:56.540 and to attack

00:32:57.320 at the same time

00:32:58.860 because you don't know

00:32:59.400 what's going to happen

00:33:00.060 and so it really

00:33:01.740 amps up the physiological

00:33:03.540 demand on your body

00:33:05.200 and so if you

00:33:06.340 including your heart

00:33:07.800 and your musculature

00:33:08.600 so if you stay like that

00:33:09.580 for like 10 years

00:33:10.740 you know

00:33:11.580 you're going to age

00:33:12.600 20 years

00:33:13.580 and that's a bad plan

00:33:15.640 so

00:33:16.960 so you know

00:33:19.580 you take your

00:33:20.260 underground emotions

00:33:21.600 and you integrate them

00:33:22.560 into a sophisticated

00:33:23.380 reality

00:33:24.660 now

00:33:26.360 Jung said

00:33:28.840 so

00:33:29.160 first of all

00:33:30.780 you unite your

00:33:31.240 you unite your mind

00:33:32.840 your thinking

00:33:33.580 let's say

00:33:34.060 with your emotions

00:33:34.940 so that makes one thing

00:33:36.420 instead of two

00:33:37.460 fighting things

00:33:38.500 okay

00:33:39.660 that's a good one

00:33:40.620 and then the next

00:33:41.460 conjunction

00:33:42.000 he talked about

00:33:42.740 was

00:33:43.060 it isn't enough

00:33:44.420 to unite your

00:33:45.240 mind

00:33:46.040 and your emotions

00:33:47.240 and he thought about that

00:33:48.140 as a male-female pairing

00:33:49.520 symbolically

00:33:50.260 that's how it would

00:33:51.080 manifest itself

00:33:51.860 sometimes in dreams

00:33:52.820 so you take the

00:33:53.880 masculine element

00:33:54.740 and the feminine element

00:33:56.500 the thinking

00:33:58.160 and the emotion

00:33:59.160 unite those

00:34:00.200 and that makes you

00:34:01.140 more like one thing

00:34:02.140 okay

00:34:02.400 now all of a sudden

00:34:03.060 that's represented

00:34:03.860 as symbolically male

00:34:04.980 that one thing

00:34:05.700 and it unites

00:34:06.540 with something else

00:34:07.240 that's now represented

00:34:08.200 symbolically feminine

00:34:09.260 female

00:34:09.740 that's the body

00:34:10.860 so you take the mind

00:34:12.660 emotion integration

00:34:14.120 and integrate that

00:34:15.460 in your body

00:34:16.040 so what does that mean

00:34:17.060 you act it out

00:34:18.060 instead of just thinking

00:34:20.160 so there's this

00:34:21.320 philosophical idea

00:34:22.340 called a

00:34:22.980 now I'm going to forget

00:34:26.560 what it's called

00:34:27.180 it's a contradiction

00:34:28.520 in action

00:34:29.160 there's actually a

00:34:30.080 technical term for it

00:34:30.980 but that's when you

00:34:31.740 think and believe

00:34:32.420 something but you're

00:34:33.180 but you don't act it out

00:34:34.300 and so that means

00:34:35.360 there's a dissociation

00:34:36.640 in you somehow

00:34:37.360 between your abstract

00:34:39.260 representations

00:34:39.900 and what you manifest

00:34:41.720 in action

00:34:43.020 well that's another form

00:34:44.380 of discontinuity

00:34:45.360 that isn't doing you

00:34:46.220 any good

00:34:46.680 you know

00:34:47.400 the driver's going one way

00:34:49.080 and the car's going the other

00:34:50.220 and you won't even be able

00:34:51.120 to understand yourself

00:34:52.120 if you do that

00:34:53.320 but even more

00:34:54.360 you're not putting your

00:34:55.200 principles into practice

00:34:56.420 so you're dissociated

00:34:57.780 your being is dissociated

00:34:59.400 so once you get your mind

00:35:01.200 and your emotions

00:35:01.860 working together

00:35:02.600 then the next thing to do

00:35:03.640 is to act that out

00:35:04.540 consistently

00:35:05.200 so that was the second

00:35:06.600 conjunction

00:35:07.160 as far as Jung

00:35:08.120 was concerned

00:35:08.640 and then the third one

00:35:09.680 was

00:35:10.040 this is the tough one

00:35:11.420 and this is the one

00:35:12.040 that's related to

00:35:12.660 phenomenology

00:35:13.340 you erase the distinction

00:35:16.040 between yourself

00:35:16.880 and the world

00:35:17.500 okay

00:35:19.240 that's a tough one

00:35:21.160 so imagine you're dealing

00:35:22.260 with someone who's hoarding

00:35:23.560 now people who are hoarding

00:35:25.580 are often older

00:35:26.840 or neurologically damaged

00:35:28.440 or they have obsessive

00:35:29.460 compulsive disorder

00:35:30.360 but then you walk

00:35:31.480 into their house

00:35:32.120 and there's like

00:35:33.100 10,000 things

00:35:34.220 in their house

00:35:34.720 there's

00:35:35.000 there's

00:35:35.780 maybe a hundred boxes

00:35:37.720 and you open up a box

00:35:38.720 and in the box

00:35:39.320 there's some pens

00:35:40.100 and some old passports

00:35:41.680 and some checks

00:35:42.840 and their collection

00:35:44.260 of silver dollars

00:35:45.220 and some hypodermic needles

00:35:47.160 and some dust

00:35:48.040 and you know

00:35:48.760 a dead mouse

00:35:49.640 and there's boxes

00:35:51.980 and boxes

00:35:52.640 and boxes

00:35:53.320 like that in the house

00:35:54.540 it's absolute chaos

00:35:55.920 in there

00:35:56.460 absolute chaos

00:35:57.660 not order

00:35:58.340 chaos

00:35:58.960 and then you think

00:36:00.220 is that their house

00:36:01.300 or is that their being

00:36:02.520 is that their mind

00:36:03.740 and the answer is

00:36:05.140 there's no difference

00:36:06.220 there's no difference

00:36:07.620 so you know

00:36:08.640 I could say

00:36:09.160 well if you want to organize

00:36:10.180 your psyche

00:36:11.060 you could start by organizing

00:36:12.260 your room

00:36:12.800 if that would be easier

00:36:14.180 because maybe

00:36:14.600 you're a more concrete person

00:36:16.060 and you need something

00:36:16.780 concrete to do

00:36:17.640 so you go clean up

00:36:19.680 under your bed

00:36:20.260 and you make your bed

00:36:20.960 and you organize the papers

00:36:22.160 on your desk

00:36:22.880 and you think

00:36:23.320 well just exactly

00:36:24.520 what are you organizing

00:36:25.620 are you organizing

00:36:26.840 the objective world

00:36:27.780 or are you objecting

00:36:28.660 your field

00:36:29.240 or are you organizing

00:36:30.680 your field of being

00:36:32.060 like your field

00:36:32.900 of total experience

00:36:34.180 and Jung believed that

00:36:36.160 and I think

00:36:36.880 there's a Buddhist doctrine

00:36:38.180 that sort of nested in there

00:36:39.280 that at the highest level

00:36:40.900 of psychological integration

00:36:42.180 there's no difference

00:36:43.500 between you

00:36:44.320 and what you experience

00:36:45.900 now you think

00:36:47.340 well I can't control

00:36:48.960 everything I experience

00:36:49.960 but that's no objection

00:36:51.080 because you can't

00:36:52.240 control yourself anyway

00:36:53.240 so the mere fact

00:36:54.240 that you can't extend

00:36:55.240 control over everything

00:36:56.800 you experience

00:36:57.480 there's no argument

00:36:58.160 against the idea

00:36:59.580 that you should still

00:37:00.420 treat that as an extension

00:37:01.580 of yourself

00:37:02.300 so you could say

00:37:03.200 well let's say

00:37:03.720 you have a long-standing

00:37:05.580 feud with your brother

00:37:07.000 well is that a

00:37:08.900 psychological problem

00:37:10.020 is that him

00:37:10.960 is it a problem

00:37:11.620 in the objective world

00:37:12.540 or is it a problem

00:37:13.840 in your field of being

00:37:15.400 and it's very useful

00:37:17.380 to think that way

00:37:18.200 because you might ask

00:37:19.060 what could you do

00:37:20.260 to improve yourself

00:37:21.260 well let's step

00:37:22.920 one step backwards

00:37:23.980 the first question

00:37:24.980 might be

00:37:25.300 why should you even

00:37:26.120 bother improving

00:37:27.060 yourself

00:37:27.560 and I think

00:37:29.020 the answer to that

00:37:29.820 is something like

00:37:30.440 so you don't suffer

00:37:31.560 any more stupidly

00:37:32.920 than you have to

00:37:33.820 and maybe so others

00:37:35.440 don't have to either

00:37:36.200 it's something like that

00:37:37.380 you know like

00:37:37.860 there's a real injunction

00:37:38.860 at the bottom of it

00:37:39.720 it's not some

00:37:40.340 casual self-help doctrine

00:37:42.220 it's that if you don't

00:37:43.820 organize yourself properly

00:37:45.340 you'll pay for it

00:37:46.960 and in a big way

00:37:47.940 and so will the people

00:37:49.040 around you

00:37:49.560 now

00:37:49.800 and you could say

00:37:51.000 well I don't care about that

00:37:52.180 but that's actually not true

00:37:53.400 you actually do care about that

00:37:54.820 because if you're in pain

00:37:55.940 you will care about it

00:37:57.520 and so you do care about it

00:37:59.400 even if it's just

00:38:00.120 that negative way

00:38:01.240 you know

00:38:01.600 it's very rare

00:38:03.320 that you can find someone

00:38:04.400 who's in excruciating pain

00:38:05.940 who would ever say

00:38:07.020 well it would be no better

00:38:08.920 if I was out of this

00:38:09.980 it's sort of pain

00:38:11.300 is one of those things

00:38:12.740 that brings the idea

00:38:14.540 that it would be better

00:38:15.540 if it didn't exist

00:38:16.800 along with it

00:38:17.720 it's incontrovertible

00:38:19.260 so

00:38:20.200 you get your act together

00:38:21.840 so that there isn't

00:38:22.680 any more stupid pain

00:38:23.820 around you

00:38:24.280 than necessary

00:38:25.120 well so then the question

00:38:26.460 might be

00:38:26.820 well how would you go about

00:38:27.820 getting your act together

00:38:28.820 and the answer to that

00:38:29.840 and this is a phenomenological

00:38:31.320 idea too

00:38:32.040 it's something like

00:38:32.980 look around

00:38:34.220 for something that bothers you

00:38:36.100 and see if you can fix it

00:38:37.660 so

00:38:38.980 now you think

00:38:40.000 well

00:38:40.220 let's say

00:38:41.760 let's say you go into

00:38:43.040 you can do this in a room

00:38:44.940 it's quite fun to do it

00:38:46.040 just when you're sitting

00:38:46.820 in a room

00:38:47.240 like a room

00:38:47.880 maybe your bedroom

00:38:48.760 you can sit there

00:38:49.480 and just sort of meditate on it

00:38:50.940 and think okay

00:38:51.440 if I wanted to

00:38:52.480 spend 10 minutes

00:38:54.180 making this room better

00:38:55.520 what would I have to do

00:38:57.520 and you have to ask yourself that

00:38:59.000 right

00:38:59.220 it's not a command

00:39:00.040 it's like a genuine question

00:39:01.300 and things will pop out

00:39:02.640 in the room

00:39:03.160 that you know

00:39:03.760 like there's a stack of papers

00:39:05.400 over there

00:39:05.780 that's kind of bugging you

00:39:06.760 and you know

00:39:07.160 that maybe

00:39:07.660 little order there

00:39:08.800 would be a good thing

00:39:09.640 and you know

00:39:10.340 you haven't

00:39:10.920 there's some rubbish

00:39:12.220 behind your computer monitor

00:39:13.740 that you haven't attended to

00:39:15.020 for like six months

00:39:16.000 and the room would be

00:39:17.080 slightly better

00:39:17.760 if it was a little less dusty

00:39:19.260 and the cables weren't all tangled up

00:39:20.800 the same way

00:39:21.460 and like

00:39:22.120 if you

00:39:22.780 if you allow yourself

00:39:24.660 just to consider

00:39:26.080 the expanse

00:39:27.580 in which you exist

00:39:28.980 at that moment

00:39:29.820 there'll be all sorts of things

00:39:31.160 that'll pop out in it

00:39:32.280 that you could just fix

00:39:33.680 and you know

00:39:35.300 I might say

00:39:35.820 well if you were coming

00:39:36.680 to see me for psychotherapy

00:39:38.200 the easiest thing for us

00:39:40.200 to do first

00:39:40.800 would just be

00:39:41.420 to get you to organize your room

00:39:42.700 you think

00:39:43.520 well is that psychotherapy

00:39:44.700 and the answer is

00:39:45.900 well it depends on

00:39:47.100 how you conceive

00:39:48.400 the limits of your being

00:39:49.900 and I would say

00:39:52.440 start where you can start

00:39:54.260 you know

00:39:54.880 if something announces itself

00:39:57.060 to you

00:39:57.720 which is a strange way

00:39:58.880 of thinking about it

00:39:59.640 as in need of repair

00:40:01.460 that you could repair

00:40:02.860 then hey

00:40:04.140 fix it

00:40:05.140 you fix a hundred things

00:40:06.700 like that

00:40:07.280 your life will be

00:40:08.640 a lot different

00:40:09.380 you know

00:40:10.780 I often tell people too

00:40:12.000 fix the things

00:40:12.780 you repeat every day

00:40:13.980 because people tend to think

00:40:15.340 of those as trivial

00:40:16.160 right

00:40:16.920 you get up

00:40:18.160 you brush your teeth

00:40:19.220 you have your breakfast

00:40:20.480 you know

00:40:20.940 you have your routines

00:40:22.160 that you go through every day

00:40:23.260 well those probably

00:40:24.440 constitute 50%

00:40:26.120 of your life

00:40:26.980 and people think

00:40:28.140 well they're mundane

00:40:28.800 I don't need to pay attention

00:40:29.840 to them

00:40:30.200 it's like no no

00:40:30.840 that's exactly wrong

00:40:31.800 the things you do every day

00:40:33.240 those are the most important

00:40:34.820 things you do

00:40:35.560 hands down

00:40:36.980 all you have to do

00:40:37.640 is do the arithmetic

00:40:38.300 you figure it out

00:40:39.800 right away

00:40:40.260 so

00:40:40.860 a hundred adjustments

00:40:42.560 to your

00:40:43.180 broader

00:40:44.280 domain of being

00:40:45.720 and

00:40:45.980 there's a lot less

00:40:47.480 rubbish and

00:40:48.300 there's a lot less

00:40:50.060 rubbish around

00:40:50.720 and a lot fewer

00:40:51.440 traps for you

00:40:52.240 to step into

00:40:53.020 and so

00:40:54.260 that's in keeping

00:40:56.220 with Jung's idea

00:40:57.120 about

00:40:57.480 erasing the

00:40:59.040 once you've got

00:40:59.960 your mind

00:41:00.480 and your emotions

00:41:01.220 together

00:41:01.660 and once you're

00:41:02.580 acting that out

00:41:03.460 then you can

00:41:04.520 extend

00:41:05.900 what you're willing

00:41:06.580 to consider yourself

00:41:07.780 and start fixing up

00:41:09.540 the things

00:41:09.980 that are part of

00:41:11.700 your broader extent

00:41:12.820 now sometimes you don't

00:41:13.900 know how to do that

00:41:14.600 so you might say

00:41:15.520 imagine you're walking

00:41:16.220 down Bloor Street

00:41:17.000 and there's this guy

00:41:18.560 who's like alcoholic

00:41:19.540 and schizophrenic

00:41:20.400 and has been on the

00:41:21.040 streets for 10 years

00:41:21.820 he sort of stumbled

00:41:22.520 towards you

00:41:23.120 and you know

00:41:24.000 incoherently mutters

00:41:25.260 something

00:41:25.700 that's a problem

00:41:27.220 and

00:41:28.340 it would be good

00:41:29.520 if you could fix it

00:41:30.440 but you haven't got a clue

00:41:31.480 about how to fix that

00:41:32.700 you just walk around that

00:41:34.900 and go find something

00:41:35.980 that you could fix

00:41:37.140 because if you muck

00:41:38.020 about in that

00:41:38.640 not only is it unlikely

00:41:40.240 that you'll help that

00:41:41.080 person

00:41:41.360 it's very likely

00:41:42.040 that you'll get hurt

00:41:42.940 yourself

00:41:43.540 so you know

00:41:44.880 just because

00:41:45.540 while you're

00:41:46.600 experiencing things

00:41:48.220 announce themselves

00:41:49.520 as in need of repair

00:41:50.880 doesn't mean that

00:41:51.880 it's you

00:41:52.420 right then and there

00:41:53.560 that should repair them

00:41:54.560 you have to have

00:41:55.400 some humility

00:41:56.040 you know

00:41:56.880 you don't walk up

00:41:57.880 to a helicopter

00:41:58.580 that isn't working

00:41:59.320 and just start

00:41:59.820 tinkering away with it

00:42:00.840 you have to stay

00:42:02.240 within your domain

00:42:02.980 of competence

00:42:03.580 but most of the time

00:42:04.640 if people look

00:42:05.600 at their lives

00:42:06.260 you know

00:42:07.260 it's very interesting

00:42:09.180 thing to do

00:42:09.860 I like the idea

00:42:11.500 of the room

00:42:12.100 because you can do that

00:42:13.180 at the drop of a hat

00:42:14.380 you know

00:42:14.820 you go back

00:42:15.320 to where you live

00:42:16.000 and sit down

00:42:16.560 and think

00:42:16.820 okay

00:42:17.100 I'm going to make

00:42:18.540 this place better

00:42:19.340 for half an hour

00:42:20.220 what should I do

00:42:21.300 you have to ask

00:42:22.900 and

00:42:24.040 things will just

00:42:25.120 pop up like mad

00:42:26.060 and it's partly

00:42:26.680 because

00:42:27.040 your mind

00:42:27.880 is a very strange thing

00:42:28.940 as soon as you

00:42:29.460 give it a name

00:42:30.200 a genuine aim

00:42:31.820 it'll reconfigure

00:42:33.380 the world

00:42:33.780 in keeping

00:42:34.240 with that aim

00:42:34.880 that's actually

00:42:35.640 how you see

00:42:36.380 to begin with

00:42:37.260 and so if you

00:42:38.300 set it a task

00:42:39.380 especially

00:42:39.840 you have to be

00:42:40.520 genuine about it

00:42:41.300 which is why

00:42:41.840 you have to bring

00:42:42.760 your thoughts

00:42:44.200 and emotions together

00:42:45.100 and then you have

00:42:45.720 to get them

00:42:46.180 in your body

00:42:46.780 so you're acting

00:42:47.480 consistently

00:42:48.100 you have to be

00:42:49.000 genuine about

00:42:49.800 the aim

00:42:50.340 but once you aim

00:42:51.660 the world

00:42:52.320 will reconfigure

00:42:53.700 itself around

00:42:54.420 that aim

00:42:54.960 which is very strange

00:42:56.200 and

00:42:56.820 it's

00:42:58.320 technically

00:42:59.560 true

00:43:00.240 you know

00:43:01.180 the best example

00:43:01.980 of that

00:43:02.400 you have all

00:43:04.040 seen this video

00:43:04.740 where you

00:43:05.180 watch the

00:43:06.500 basketballs being

00:43:07.600 tossed back and

00:43:08.340 forth

00:43:08.620 between members

00:43:09.800 of the white

00:43:10.360 team

00:43:10.760 versus the black

00:43:11.700 team

00:43:12.020 and while

00:43:12.780 you're doing

00:43:13.480 that a gorilla

00:43:14.020 walks up into

00:43:14.820 the middle of

00:43:15.320 the video

00:43:15.680 and you don't

00:43:16.200 see it

00:43:16.560 it's like

00:43:16.960 you know

00:43:17.640 if you thought

00:43:18.360 about that

00:43:18.780 experiment

00:43:19.180 for about

00:43:19.580 five years

00:43:20.420 that would be

00:43:20.940 about the

00:43:21.280 right amount

00:43:21.640 of time

00:43:22.000 to spend

00:43:22.360 thinking about

00:43:22.940 it

00:43:23.100 because what

00:43:23.780 it shows

00:43:24.140 you is that

00:43:24.600 you see

00:43:25.020 what you aim

00:43:25.600 at

00:43:25.880 and that

00:43:26.920 man

00:43:27.760 if you can

00:43:28.220 get one

00:43:28.640 thing through

00:43:29.140 your head

00:43:29.600 as a consequence

00:43:30.900 of even being

00:43:31.860 in university

00:43:32.500 that would be

00:43:33.140 a good one

00:43:33.560 you see

00:43:34.000 what you

00:43:34.320 aim at

00:43:34.720 and so

00:43:35.320 because

00:43:35.700 one

00:43:36.420 inference

00:43:38.780 you might

00:43:39.080 draw from

00:43:39.540 that is

00:43:39.960 be careful

00:43:40.660 what you

00:43:41.000 aim at

00:43:41.460 right

00:43:42.660 what you

00:43:43.320 aim at

00:43:43.800 determines

00:43:44.460 the way

00:43:44.980 the world

00:43:45.360 manifests itself

00:43:46.260 to you

00:43:46.660 and so

00:43:47.240 if the world

00:43:47.660 is manifesting

00:43:48.380 itself

00:43:48.800 in a

00:43:49.740 very negative

00:43:50.820 way

00:43:51.340 one thing

00:43:52.540 to ask

00:43:53.040 is

00:43:53.220 are you

00:43:53.880 aiming at

00:43:54.420 the right

00:43:54.760 thing

00:43:55.080 now

00:43:55.280 you know

00:43:55.800 I'm not

00:43:56.140 trying to

00:43:56.560 reduce

00:43:56.880 everybody's

00:43:57.440 problems

00:43:57.820 to

00:43:58.140 an improper

00:43:59.620 aim

00:43:59.920 people get

00:44:00.360 cut off

00:44:00.740 at the knees

00:44:01.260 for all

00:44:01.640 sorts of

00:44:02.060 reasons

00:44:02.380 you know

00:44:02.740 they get

00:44:03.100 sick

00:44:03.380 they have

00:44:04.000 accidents

00:44:04.460 there's a

00:44:05.200 random element

00:44:05.940 to being

00:44:06.480 that's for

00:44:06.960 sure

00:44:07.260 but

00:44:07.940 and so

00:44:08.420 you don't

00:44:08.720 want to

00:44:08.960 take anything

00:44:09.620 even that

00:44:10.320 particular

00:44:10.820 phrase

00:44:11.180 too far

00:44:11.780 you want

00:44:12.420 to bind

00:44:12.840 it with

00:44:13.200 the fact

00:44:13.600 that

00:44:13.800 random

00:44:14.300 things

00:44:14.680 do happen

00:44:15.160 to people

00:44:15.600 but it's

00:44:16.220 still a

00:44:16.540 great thing

00:44:16.980 to ask

00:44:17.600 okay

00:44:18.600 so Rogers

00:44:19.280 was a

00:44:19.780 phenomenologist

00:44:20.500 and he

00:44:20.920 was interested

00:44:21.500 in

00:44:21.740 he didn't

00:44:22.520 start

00:44:23.020 his

00:44:23.480 philosophy

00:44:24.560 from the

00:44:25.180 perspective

00:44:25.720 of subject

00:44:26.940 versus object

00:44:27.720 or from

00:44:28.260 the idea

00:44:28.760 of psyche

00:44:29.500 like sort

00:44:30.520 of inside

00:44:31.100 you

00:44:31.460 your mind

00:44:32.300 with its

00:44:32.700 layers

00:44:33.120 that's not

00:44:34.580 how we

00:44:34.880 looked at

00:44:35.340 it

00:44:35.520 and so

00:44:36.180 let's go

00:44:37.360 through

00:44:37.700 well

00:44:39.640 I'll introduce

00:44:40.740 you to Rogers

00:44:41.420 I think I'll

00:44:41.940 and then we'll

00:44:42.540 talk about it

00:44:43.000 more next time

00:44:43.460 I'm going to

00:44:44.060 start though

00:44:44.580 with something

00:44:45.620 that I learned

00:44:46.600 from him

00:44:46.940 that I think

00:44:47.420 was of crucial

00:44:48.140 importance

00:44:48.580 and so

00:44:49.100 we'll set

00:44:49.840 the stage

00:44:50.440 for the further

00:44:51.020 discussion

00:44:51.540 with this

00:44:52.700 and I'm

00:44:53.460 going to

00:44:53.620 read it

00:44:53.920 to you

00:44:54.260 assuming

00:44:55.980 a minimal

00:44:56.580 mutual

00:44:57.080 willingness

00:44:57.520 to be

00:44:57.900 in contact

00:44:58.540 and to

00:44:58.860 receive

00:44:59.160 communications

00:44:59.840 we may

00:45:00.620 say that

00:45:01.000 the greater

00:45:01.400 the communicated

00:45:01.940 congruence

00:45:03.980 of experience

00:45:04.880 awareness

00:45:06.360 and behavior

00:45:07.940 on the part

00:45:08.680 of one

00:45:08.940 individual

00:45:09.420 the more

00:45:10.060 the ensuing

00:45:10.660 relationship

00:45:11.220 will involve

00:45:11.920 a tendency

00:45:12.440 towards reciprocal

00:45:13.680 communication

00:45:14.360 with the same

00:45:14.900 qualities

00:45:15.440 mutually

00:45:16.280 accurate

00:45:16.780 understanding

00:45:17.380 of the

00:45:17.680 communications

00:45:18.240 improved

00:45:19.020 psychological

00:45:19.640 adjustment

00:45:20.200 and functioning

00:45:20.840 in both

00:45:21.200 parties

00:45:21.540 and mutual

00:45:22.280 satisfaction

00:45:22.940 in the

00:45:23.320 relationship

00:45:23.760 it's quite

00:45:25.100 a mouthful

00:45:25.640 what does

00:45:26.840 it mean

00:45:27.240 assuming

00:45:27.960 a minimal

00:45:28.460 mutual

00:45:28.960 willingness

00:45:29.380 to be

00:45:29.760 in contact

00:45:30.260 and to

00:45:30.740 receive

00:45:31.060 communications

00:45:31.760 okay

00:45:32.580 we're having

00:45:33.320 a conversation

00:45:34.060 I'm deciding

00:45:35.500 I'm going

00:45:35.900 to listen

00:45:36.460 to you

00:45:37.000 right

00:45:38.260 that's

00:45:38.880 different

00:45:39.340 than

00:45:39.600 how people

00:45:40.460 generally

00:45:41.000 communicate

00:45:41.540 because usually

00:45:42.360 when they

00:45:42.780 communicate

00:45:43.220 they're doing

00:45:44.080 something like

00:45:44.740 okay

00:45:45.400 we're going

00:45:45.940 to have a

00:45:46.220 conversation

00:45:46.760 and I'm

00:45:47.460 going to

00:45:47.680 tell you

00:45:48.140 why I'm

00:45:48.680 right

00:45:49.080 and I'll

00:45:50.000 win

00:45:50.300 if you

00:45:50.640 agree

00:45:51.060 or maybe

00:45:52.660 you're having

00:45:53.040 a conversation

00:45:53.760 where I don't

00:45:54.840 know what

00:45:55.140 you're trying

00:45:55.460 to do

00:45:55.660 maybe you're

00:45:56.040 trying to

00:45:56.380 impress the

00:45:56.960 person you're

00:45:57.400 talking to

00:45:57.920 so you're

00:45:58.160 not listening

00:45:58.580 to them

00:45:58.860 at all

00:45:59.080 you're just

00:45:59.380 thinking about

00:45:59.740 what you're

00:46:00.080 going to say

00:46:00.440 next

00:46:00.900 okay so

00:46:01.840 that's not

00:46:02.460 this

00:46:02.940 this is

00:46:03.920 you might

00:46:04.820 have something

00:46:05.380 to tell

00:46:05.920 me

00:46:06.220 and so

00:46:07.620 I'm going

00:46:07.960 to listen

00:46:08.520 on the

00:46:09.360 off chance

00:46:10.140 that you'll

00:46:10.580 tell me

00:46:10.900 something that

00:46:11.360 would really

00:46:11.780 be useful

00:46:12.280 for me

00:46:12.640 to know

00:46:13.000 and so

00:46:13.620 you could

00:46:14.200 think about

00:46:14.560 it as an

00:46:15.060 extension of

00:46:16.380 the Piagetian

00:46:17.180 you know

00:46:19.260 Piaget talked

00:46:19.980 about the

00:46:20.380 fundamental

00:46:20.860 the fundamentally

00:46:22.700 important element

00:46:23.460 of knowledge

00:46:24.000 being to

00:46:24.640 describe how

00:46:25.320 knowledge is

00:46:25.920 sought

00:46:26.280 the process

00:46:26.900 by which

00:46:27.320 knowledge is

00:46:27.780 generated

00:46:28.200 well

00:46:28.880 if you agree

00:46:31.200 with me

00:46:31.500 and I find

00:46:32.000 that out

00:46:32.320 I know

00:46:32.640 nothing more

00:46:33.180 than I knew

00:46:33.580 before

00:46:33.960 I just know

00:46:34.600 what I knew

00:46:35.020 before

00:46:35.420 and maybe

00:46:36.180 I'm happy

00:46:36.620 about that

00:46:37.080 because you

00:46:37.680 know

00:46:37.800 it didn't

00:46:38.340 get challenged

00:46:39.020 but I'm

00:46:39.560 no smarter

00:46:40.080 than I was

00:46:40.580 before

00:46:40.960 but maybe

00:46:41.900 you're

00:46:42.120 different than

00:46:42.620 me

00:46:42.820 and so

00:46:43.120 while I'm

00:46:43.480 listening to you

00:46:44.040 you'll tell

00:46:44.400 me something

00:46:44.780 I don't like

00:46:45.960 maybe it's

00:46:46.740 something I

00:46:47.100 find contemptible

00:46:48.100 or difficult

00:46:49.060 whatever

00:46:49.560 maybe you'll

00:46:50.380 find you'll

00:46:50.980 tell me

00:46:51.240 something

00:46:51.560 I don't

00:46:52.300 know

00:46:52.540 and then

00:46:53.060 I won't

00:46:53.300 be quite

00:46:53.620 as stupid

00:46:54.200 and then

00:46:54.940 maybe I

00:46:55.280 won't run

00:46:55.840 painfully

00:46:56.520 into quite

00:46:57.280 as many

00:46:57.720 things

00:46:58.180 and that's

00:46:59.260 a really

00:46:59.540 useful thing

00:47:00.100 to know

00:47:00.460 especially

00:47:00.860 if you

00:47:01.220 live with

00:47:01.600 someone

00:47:01.820 and you're

00:47:02.140 trying to

00:47:02.540 make long-term

00:47:04.000 peace with

00:47:04.560 them

00:47:04.680 they're not

00:47:05.200 the same

00:47:05.640 as you

00:47:06.040 and their

00:47:07.220 way they

00:47:07.640 look at

00:47:07.900 the world

00:47:08.180 and the

00:47:08.480 facts that

00:47:08.980 they pull

00:47:09.340 out of

00:47:09.520 the world

00:47:09.780 aren't

00:47:10.000 the same

00:47:10.340 as your

00:47:10.640 facts

00:47:11.100 and

00:47:11.800 even though

00:47:13.100 you're

00:47:13.380 going to

00:47:13.760 be

00:47:14.000 overwhelmed

00:47:14.640 with the

00:47:15.160 proclivity

00:47:15.660 to demonstrate

00:47:16.400 that you're

00:47:17.020 right

00:47:17.380 it is the

00:47:18.660 case that

00:47:19.040 two brains

00:47:19.500 are better

00:47:19.840 than one

00:47:20.340 and so

00:47:21.680 maybe nine

00:47:23.360 of the ten

00:47:23.880 things they

00:47:24.360 tell you

00:47:24.840 are dispensable

00:47:26.180 or maybe

00:47:26.800 even 49

00:47:27.920 out of 50

00:47:28.620 but one

00:47:29.240 thing

00:47:29.720 all you need

00:47:30.520 to get out

00:47:30.900 of the damn

00:47:31.280 conversation

00:47:31.760 is one

00:47:32.360 thing you

00:47:32.740 don't know

00:47:33.260 and one

00:47:34.120 of the

00:47:34.360 things that's

00:47:34.880 very cool

00:47:35.400 about a

00:47:36.340 good

00:47:36.560 psychotherapeutic

00:47:37.760 session

00:47:38.220 is that

00:47:38.720 the whole

00:47:39.220 conversation

00:47:39.780 is like

00:47:40.180 that

00:47:40.440 all you're

00:47:41.860 doing is

00:47:42.380 trying to

00:47:43.240 express

00:47:45.020 the truth

00:47:46.140 of the

00:47:46.500 situation

00:47:47.060 as clearly

00:47:48.140 as possible

00:47:49.000 that's it

00:47:50.020 and so

00:47:51.480 now

00:47:52.800 Rogers

00:47:53.840 proposition

00:47:55.300 and I'll

00:47:56.680 tell you

00:47:57.020 why he

00:47:57.380 derived it

00:47:58.240 was that

00:47:59.100 if you

00:48:00.060 have a

00:48:00.380 conversation

00:48:00.960 like that

00:48:01.440 with someone

00:48:01.880 it will

00:48:02.620 make both

00:48:03.220 of you

00:48:03.540 better

00:48:03.960 it'll make

00:48:05.200 both of

00:48:05.620 you

00:48:05.720 psychologically

00:48:06.460 healthier

00:48:07.000 so there's

00:48:07.720 an implicit

00:48:08.180 presupposition

00:48:09.040 that the

00:48:09.880 exchange of

00:48:10.800 truth

00:48:11.320 is curative

00:48:12.400 well that's

00:48:13.560 a very

00:48:13.800 cool idea

00:48:14.500 I mean it's

00:48:15.440 a very deep

00:48:16.000 idea

00:48:16.380 I think it's

00:48:17.600 the most

00:48:17.980 profound

00:48:18.640 idea

00:48:19.180 it's the

00:48:20.340 it's the

00:48:20.880 idea upon

00:48:21.500 western

00:48:21.860 civil

00:48:22.180 upon which

00:48:22.920 western

00:48:23.340 civilization

00:48:24.080 although not

00:48:24.940 only western

00:48:25.620 civilization

00:48:26.120 is actually

00:48:26.860 predicated

00:48:27.540 the idea

00:48:28.460 that truth

00:48:29.080 produces

00:48:29.600 health

00:48:30.080 but for

00:48:30.820 Rogers

00:48:31.200 that was

00:48:31.580 the entire

00:48:31.940 purpose

00:48:32.320 of the

00:48:32.620 psychotherapeutic

00:48:33.420 alliance

00:48:33.820 you come

00:48:34.800 to see

00:48:35.180 me because

00:48:35.600 you want

00:48:36.080 to be

00:48:36.320 better

00:48:36.660 you don't

00:48:38.660 even know

00:48:38.960 what that

00:48:39.320 means

00:48:39.680 necessarily

00:48:40.240 neither

00:48:40.540 do I

00:48:41.020 we're

00:48:41.400 going to

00:48:41.600 figure that

00:48:42.020 out

00:48:42.200 together

00:48:42.640 but you

00:48:43.380 come and

00:48:43.780 you say

00:48:44.100 look things

00:48:44.840 are not

00:48:45.320 acceptable

00:48:46.040 to me

00:48:46.700 and maybe

00:48:47.500 there's

00:48:47.820 something I

00:48:48.260 could do

00:48:48.520 about that

00:48:48.940 so that's

00:48:49.380 the minimal

00:48:50.020 precondition

00:48:50.740 to engage

00:48:51.300 in therapy

00:48:51.820 something's

00:48:52.900 wrong

00:48:53.240 you're willing

00:48:54.140 to talk

00:48:54.540 about it

00:48:54.840 truthfully

00:48:55.300 and you

00:48:55.800 want it

00:48:56.100 to be

00:48:56.340 better

00:48:56.620 without

00:48:57.020 that

00:48:57.400 the

00:48:57.860 therapeutic

00:48:58.260 relationship

00:48:59.560 does not

00:49:00.140 get off

00:49:00.520 the ground

00:49:00.940 and so

00:49:01.620 then you

00:49:01.940 might ask

00:49:02.340 well what

00:49:02.840 relationships

00:49:03.360 are therapeutic

00:49:04.140 and the

00:49:04.780 answer to

00:49:05.040 that would

00:49:05.320 be

00:49:05.500 if you

00:49:06.520 have a

00:49:06.820 real

00:49:07.000 relationship

00:49:07.560 it's

00:49:08.140 therapeutic

00:49:08.560 if it

00:49:09.260 isn't

00:49:09.640 what you

00:49:10.300 have

00:49:10.540 is not

00:49:10.960 a

00:49:11.100 relationship

00:49:11.580 god only

00:49:12.220 knows

00:49:12.460 what you

00:49:12.720 have

00:49:13.040 you're a

00:49:13.720 slave

00:49:14.100 they're a

00:49:14.580 tyrant

00:49:14.980 you know

00:49:15.800 you're both

00:49:16.480 butting heads

00:49:17.100 with one

00:49:17.440 another

00:49:17.720 it's a

00:49:18.160 primate

00:49:18.560 dominance

00:49:19.080 hierarchy

00:49:19.600 dispute

00:49:20.140 oh I

00:49:21.180 don't know

00:49:21.360 you're like

00:49:21.640 two cats

00:49:22.180 in a barrel

00:49:22.700 or two

00:49:23.060 people with

00:49:23.500 their hands

00:49:23.880 around each

00:49:24.360 other's

00:49:24.940 throats

00:49:25.260 but what

00:49:26.140 you have

00:49:26.520 is not

00:49:26.860 a

00:49:26.980 relationship

00:49:27.460 so

00:49:28.540 all right

00:49:30.120 we may

00:49:30.920 say that

00:49:31.260 the greater

00:49:31.620 the communicated

00:49:32.340 congruence

00:49:32.980 of experience

00:49:33.640 awareness

00:49:34.080 and behavior

00:49:34.680 on the part

00:49:35.160 of one

00:49:36.820 that's a

00:49:37.420 reference to

00:49:37.980 the same

00:49:38.380 idea that

00:49:38.860 I was

00:49:39.120 describing

00:49:39.560 with regards

00:49:40.140 to Jung

00:49:40.620 so let's

00:49:41.640 say you

00:49:42.880 come and

00:49:43.280 talk to me

00:49:43.780 and you

00:49:44.160 want things

00:49:44.560 to go

00:49:44.820 well well

00:49:45.280 I'm going

00:49:45.600 to have

00:49:45.880 to more

00:49:46.180 or less

00:49:46.440 be one

00:49:46.960 thing

00:49:47.440 because if

00:49:48.140 I'm all

00:49:48.460 over the

00:49:48.880 place

00:49:49.300 you can't

00:49:50.980 trust any

00:49:51.580 continuity

00:49:52.140 in what

00:49:52.540 I say

00:49:53.060 there's no

00:49:53.960 reason for

00:49:55.700 you to

00:49:55.940 believe that

00:49:56.360 I'm capable

00:49:56.940 of actually

00:49:57.480 telling you

00:49:58.120 I'm capable

00:49:59.520 of expressing

00:50:00.240 anything

00:50:00.640 that's true

00:50:01.280 so the

00:50:02.480 truth is

00:50:02.920 something that

00:50:03.480 emerges as a

00:50:04.440 consequence of

00:50:05.160 getting yourself

00:50:05.820 lined up

00:50:06.500 and beating

00:50:07.280 all the

00:50:07.820 what would

00:50:09.740 you call

00:50:10.140 all the

00:50:12.560 impurities

00:50:13.160 out of

00:50:13.620 your

00:50:13.880 soul

00:50:17.100 for lack

00:50:18.120 of a better

00:50:18.560 word

00:50:18.900 you have to

00:50:19.920 be integrated

00:50:20.460 for that to

00:50:21.020 happen

00:50:21.300 and you do

00:50:21.800 that at least

00:50:22.280 in part by

00:50:22.800 wanting to

00:50:23.220 tell the

00:50:23.540 truth

00:50:23.840 the more

00:50:24.600 the ensuing

00:50:25.540 relationship

00:50:26.580 will involve

00:50:27.220 a tendency

00:50:27.680 towards reciprocal

00:50:28.560 communication

00:50:29.300 with the

00:50:29.640 same qualities

00:50:30.200 so one of

00:50:31.620 the things

00:50:32.100 I've been

00:50:33.300 quite influenced

00:50:33.960 by Rogers

00:50:34.560 one of the

00:50:35.240 things I

00:50:35.580 try to do

00:50:36.000 in my

00:50:36.260 therapeutic

00:50:36.640 sessions

00:50:37.060 is first

00:50:37.520 of all

00:50:37.740 to listen

00:50:38.200 to really

00:50:38.680 listen

00:50:39.060 and then

00:50:40.200 while I

00:50:41.340 listen

00:50:41.620 I watch

00:50:42.380 and while

00:50:43.200 I'm listening

00:50:43.860 things will

00:50:44.720 happen in

00:50:45.240 my head

00:50:45.780 you know

00:50:46.580 maybe I'll

00:50:47.020 get a little

00:50:47.440 image of

00:50:48.200 something

00:50:48.540 or I'll

00:50:49.320 get a thought

00:50:49.800 or a question

00:50:50.420 will emerge

00:50:50.920 and then I'll

00:50:51.500 just tell the

00:50:51.980 person what

00:50:52.420 that is

00:50:52.900 but it's

00:50:53.460 sort of

00:50:53.740 directionless

00:50:54.480 you know

00:50:54.720 it's not

00:50:55.040 like I

00:50:55.620 have a

00:50:55.960 goal

00:50:56.340 except that

00:50:57.020 we're trying

00:50:57.360 to make

00:50:57.600 things better

00:50:58.160 I'm on

00:50:58.860 the side

00:50:59.240 of the

00:50:59.440 person

00:50:59.800 I'm on

00:51:00.840 the side

00:51:01.220 of the

00:51:01.440 part of

00:51:01.720 that wants

00:51:02.520 things to

00:51:02.940 be better

00:51:03.520 not worse

00:51:04.460 and so

00:51:05.600 then those

00:51:06.420 parts of

00:51:06.880 us have

00:51:07.180 a dialogue

00:51:07.620 and the

00:51:08.440 consequence

00:51:08.800 of that

00:51:09.240 dialogue

00:51:09.580 is that

00:51:09.940 certain

00:51:10.260 things

00:51:10.620 take place

00:51:11.320 and then

00:51:11.580 I'll just

00:51:11.900 tell the

00:51:12.240 person

00:51:12.480 what

00:51:12.640 happened

00:51:13.000 and it

00:51:13.880 isn't

00:51:14.080 that I'm

00:51:14.400 right

00:51:14.880 that's not

00:51:16.120 the point

00:51:16.560 the point

00:51:16.940 is that

00:51:17.400 they get

00:51:18.180 to have

00:51:18.440 an hour

00:51:18.720 where someone

00:51:19.140 actually

00:51:19.700 tells them

00:51:20.360 what they

00:51:20.960 think

00:51:21.420 here's the

00:51:22.300 impact

00:51:22.660 you're having

00:51:23.080 on me

00:51:23.460 you know

00:51:24.540 this is

00:51:25.040 making me

00:51:25.480 angry

00:51:25.840 this is

00:51:26.620 making me

00:51:27.040 happy

00:51:27.420 this is

00:51:28.140 really

00:51:28.360 interesting

00:51:28.880 this reminds

00:51:29.540 me of

00:51:29.820 something that

00:51:30.320 you said

00:51:30.700 an hour

00:51:31.060 ago

00:51:31.340 that I

00:51:31.620 don't

00:51:31.780 quite

00:51:32.000 understand

00:51:32.460 and the

00:51:33.400 whole

00:51:33.660 the whole

00:51:34.960 point

00:51:35.300 is not

00:51:35.840 for either

00:51:36.980 person

00:51:37.380 to make

00:51:38.420 the proposition

00:51:39.120 or convince

00:51:39.960 the other

00:51:40.400 that their

00:51:41.060 position

00:51:41.480 is correct

00:51:42.120 but merely

00:51:42.840 to have

00:51:43.320 an exchange

00:51:44.500 of experience

00:51:45.780 about how

00:51:46.580 things are

00:51:47.180 set up

00:51:48.100 and it's

00:51:48.980 extraordinarily

00:51:49.480 useful for

00:51:50.220 people

00:51:50.480 because it's

00:51:51.000 often difficult

00:51:51.680 for anyone

00:51:52.320 to find

00:51:52.700 anyone to

00:51:53.220 talk to

00:51:53.680 that will

00:51:54.220 actually

00:51:54.520 listen

00:51:54.960 and so

00:51:56.060 another thing

00:51:56.800 that's really

00:51:57.220 strange about

00:51:57.880 this listening

00:51:58.460 is that if you

00:51:59.080 listen to people

00:51:59.640 they will tell

00:52:00.160 you the weirdest

00:52:00.820 bloody things

00:52:01.640 so fast

00:52:02.640 you just

00:52:03.040 cannot believe

00:52:03.860 it

00:52:04.060 so if you're

00:52:04.900 having a

00:52:05.300 conversation

00:52:05.820 with someone

00:52:06.320 and it's

00:52:06.720 dull

00:52:07.100 it's because

00:52:07.760 you're stupid

00:52:08.720 that's why

00:52:09.880 you're not

00:52:10.580 listening to them

00:52:11.480 properly

00:52:11.900 because they're

00:52:12.560 weird

00:52:12.940 they're like

00:52:13.420 wombats

00:52:14.860 or albatrosses

00:52:15.760 or rhinoceroses

00:52:16.600 or something

00:52:17.160 like they're

00:52:17.600 strange creatures

00:52:18.740 and so

00:52:19.520 if you were

00:52:20.180 actually

00:52:20.480 communicating

00:52:20.980 with them

00:52:21.480 and they were

00:52:21.820 telling you

00:52:22.220 how weird

00:52:22.680 they really

00:52:23.140 are

00:52:23.460 it would be

00:52:24.340 anything

00:52:25.400 but boring

00:52:26.240 so

00:52:27.560 and you can

00:52:28.500 ask questions

00:52:29.200 that's a really

00:52:29.760 good way

00:52:30.140 of listening

00:52:30.600 but you know

00:52:31.460 one of Roger's

00:52:33.080 points is

00:52:33.580 well you have

00:52:33.940 to be oriented

00:52:34.500 properly in order

00:52:35.400 to listen

00:52:35.920 and the orientation

00:52:36.860 has to be

00:52:37.700 look what I want

00:52:38.800 out of this

00:52:39.180 conversation

00:52:39.600 is that the

00:52:40.300 place we both

00:52:40.940 end up is

00:52:41.440 better than

00:52:41.900 the place

00:52:42.260 we left

00:52:42.700 that's it

00:52:43.600 that's what

00:52:44.420 I'm after

00:52:44.920 and if you're

00:52:45.660 not after that

00:52:46.420 you've got to

00:52:46.800 think why the

00:52:47.720 hell wouldn't

00:52:48.280 you be after

00:52:48.860 that

00:52:49.320 what could

00:52:49.960 you possibly

00:52:50.680 be after

00:52:51.240 that would

00:52:51.540 be better

00:52:51.920 than that

00:52:52.460 you walk

00:52:53.420 away smarter

00:52:54.620 and more

00:52:55.180 well equipped

00:52:55.800 for the world

00:52:56.540 than you were

00:52:57.640 before you had

00:52:58.380 the conversation

00:52:59.100 and so does

00:52:59.960 the other

00:53:00.280 person

00:53:00.720 well maybe

00:53:01.740 if you're

00:53:02.140 bitter and

00:53:02.660 resentful and

00:53:03.380 angry and

00:53:03.920 anxious and

00:53:04.580 you know

00:53:05.160 generally annoyed

00:53:06.680 at the world

00:53:07.340 then that isn't

00:53:08.240 what you want

00:53:08.740 you want

00:53:09.080 the other

00:53:09.920 person to

00:53:10.320 walk away

00:53:10.720 worse than

00:53:11.240 you too

00:53:11.640 because you're

00:53:12.060 full of

00:53:12.420 revenge

00:53:12.880 but you know

00:53:13.880 you'll get

00:53:15.340 what you want

00:53:15.900 if you do

00:53:16.280 that

00:53:16.660 so

00:53:17.700 we know

00:53:19.340 from our

00:53:19.700 research that

00:53:20.280 such empathic

00:53:21.260 understanding

00:53:21.940 it's already

00:53:22.540 defined that

00:53:23.240 I want to

00:53:23.900 hear you

00:53:24.320 I want to

00:53:25.120 hear what

00:53:25.360 you have to

00:53:25.720 say so we

00:53:26.200 can clarify it

00:53:27.000 and move

00:53:27.540 forward I

00:53:28.540 want to

00:53:28.760 have your

00:53:29.000 best interests

00:53:29.640 in mind

00:53:30.060 and mine

00:53:30.760 as well

00:53:31.200 but you

00:53:31.960 know both

00:53:32.800 at the same

00:53:33.260 time

00:53:33.540 your families

00:53:34.400 too if we

00:53:34.900 can manage

00:53:35.340 that we're

00:53:36.260 after making

00:53:36.860 things better

00:53:37.480 we know

00:53:38.700 from our

00:53:39.040 research that

00:53:39.600 such empathic

00:53:40.340 understanding

00:53:41.020 understanding with

00:53:42.300 a person not

00:53:42.940 about them is

00:53:43.480 such an

00:53:43.780 effective approach

00:53:44.600 that it can

00:53:44.980 bring about

00:53:45.380 major changes

00:53:46.100 in personality

00:53:46.700 some of you

00:53:47.720 may be feeling

00:53:48.880 that you listen

00:53:49.520 well to people

00:53:50.240 and that you

00:53:50.660 have never

00:53:50.940 seen such

00:53:51.440 results

00:53:51.860 the chances

00:53:52.600 are very

00:53:53.060 great that

00:53:53.520 you have not

00:53:54.060 been listening

00:53:54.660 in the manner

00:53:55.700 that I've

00:53:56.080 described

00:53:57.000 fortunately I

00:53:57.660 can suggest

00:53:58.320 a little

00:53:58.620 experiment

00:53:59.140 that you

00:53:59.560 can do

00:53:59.960 to test

00:54:00.820 the quality

00:54:01.240 of your

00:54:01.460 understanding

00:54:02.020 the next

00:54:02.840 time you

00:54:03.200 get into

00:54:03.520 an argument

00:54:03.980 with your

00:54:04.940 wife or

00:54:05.320 your friend

00:54:05.780 or a small

00:54:06.200 group of

00:54:06.520 friends

00:54:06.720 stop the

00:54:07.280 discussion

00:54:07.640 for a

00:54:07.980 moment

00:54:08.220 and for

00:54:09.120 an experiment

00:54:09.560 institute

00:54:10.020 this rule

00:54:10.700 each person

00:54:12.480 can speak up

00:54:13.460 for himself

00:54:13.960 only after

00:54:15.180 he has first

00:54:15.880 restated the

00:54:16.720 ideas and

00:54:17.300 feelings of

00:54:17.960 the previous

00:54:18.480 speaker

00:54:18.900 accurately

00:54:19.940 what accurately

00:54:20.920 means is

00:54:21.380 they have to

00:54:22.280 agree with

00:54:22.860 your

00:54:23.060 restatement

00:54:23.880 now that's

00:54:25.060 an annoying

00:54:25.480 thing to

00:54:25.940 do

00:54:26.160 because if

00:54:26.860 someone is

00:54:27.280 talking to

00:54:27.740 you and

00:54:28.380 you disagree

00:54:28.780 with them

00:54:29.200 the first

00:54:29.540 thing you

00:54:29.800 want to do

00:54:30.160 is take

00:54:30.540 their argument

00:54:30.900 make the

00:54:31.260 stupidest

00:54:31.840 possible thing

00:54:32.680 out of it

00:54:33.180 that you

00:54:33.460 can

00:54:33.820 that's the

00:54:34.600 straw man

00:54:35.180 and then

00:54:35.700 demolish it

00:54:36.420 it's like

00:54:37.580 so then you

00:54:38.440 can walk

00:54:38.820 away feeling

00:54:39.260 good about

00:54:39.900 it and

00:54:40.220 you know

00:54:40.540 you primate

00:54:41.260 dominated them

00:54:43.140 really nicely

00:54:44.020 so but that

00:54:45.400 isn't what you

00:54:45.860 do you say

00:54:46.380 okay well I'm

00:54:47.080 going to take

00:54:47.480 what you told

00:54:47.960 me and maybe

00:54:48.620 I'm even going

00:54:49.100 to make your

00:54:49.500 argument stronger

00:54:50.340 than the one

00:54:50.900 you made

00:54:51.300 that's useful

00:54:52.260 if you're dealing

00:54:52.760 with someone

00:54:53.880 with because

00:54:54.620 maybe they

00:54:55.040 can't bloody

00:54:55.520 well express

00:54:56.120 themselves very

00:54:56.820 well but they

00:54:57.320 have something

00:54:57.760 to say so

00:54:59.020 you make

00:54:59.980 their argument

00:55:00.440 strong all

00:55:01.640 right then

00:55:02.360 you see what

00:55:03.520 this would

00:55:03.820 mean it

00:55:04.920 would mean

00:55:05.280 that before

00:55:05.900 presenting your

00:55:06.600 own point of

00:55:07.120 view it'd be

00:55:07.580 necessary for

00:55:08.300 you to really

00:55:08.800 achieve the

00:55:09.380 other speaker's

00:55:10.080 frame of

00:55:10.460 reference to

00:55:11.640 understand his

00:55:12.300 thoughts and

00:55:12.740 feelings so

00:55:13.220 well that you

00:55:14.100 could summarize

00:55:14.600 them for him

00:55:15.400 sounds simple

00:55:16.820 doesn't it

00:55:17.360 but if you

00:55:18.700 will try it

00:55:19.240 you'll find that

00:55:20.440 it's the most

00:55:20.900 difficult thing

00:55:21.700 that you've ever

00:55:22.360 done okay

00:55:23.760 good we'll

00:55:24.500 leave it at

00:55:24.820 that and

00:55:25.160 then we'll

00:55:25.440 see you on

00:55:25.900 Tuesday

00:55:26.260 applause

00:55:28.000 oh

00:55:29.940 so

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The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast - December 13, 2020

147. Carl Rogers (Humanism & Phenomenology)

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