The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast - 155. The Erosion of Women's Rights？｜ Ayaan Hirsi Ali

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00:00:51.040 Welcome to the Jordan B. Peterson podcast, season four, episode seven.

00:00:58.560 I'm Michaela Peterson.

00:01:00.120 Ayaan Hirsi Ali joined Jordan on February 2nd for this episode.

00:01:04.540 They discussed immigration, the changing safety of women in public, particularly in areas of Europe, clashing values of Western cultures in Islam, and win-win propositions.

00:01:15.960 Ayaan outlined her arguments and concerns with current immigration practices and the ways that Islamic leaders and Islamic values clash with many freedoms of modern culture.

00:01:27.260 They also discussed her latest book, Prey, Immigration, Islam, and the Erosion of Women's Rights.

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00:03:55.300 I have the great privilege today of talking with Ayaan Hirsi Ali.

00:04:18.860 She's one of my heroes.

00:04:23.140 I guess that's the case ever since I read her book, Infidel, which I believe was published in 2006.

00:04:29.660 She's also published Nomad and Heretic and a new book, which we're going to talk about today.

00:04:35.100 A daring book, I would say, which is in keeping with her general courage, all things considered.

00:04:43.300 Pray, the name of the book.

00:04:45.740 Immigration, Islam, and the Erosion of Women's Rights. 1.00

00:04:49.640 All topics that I don't believe you can discuss without bringing a tremendous amount of negative attention to yourself,

00:04:56.700 but which in principle still need to be discussed.

00:05:00.700 You've had an amazing life, Ayaan.

00:05:03.600 I don't know if it's a life anyone would choose for themselves necessarily.

00:05:08.320 Maybe just for our viewers who aren't familiar with us, if you could present a bit of biographical information about yourself,

00:05:15.860 that would be a good backdrop to the investigation into your book that we're going to conduct today.

00:05:21.320 And welcome to this discussion.

00:05:23.420 I'm very pleased to see you.

00:05:25.540 Jordan, thank you very, very much for having me.

00:05:28.760 And yes, the feeling is mutual.

00:05:30.840 You are also one of my personal heroes, and I thank you for your courage.

00:05:34.980 I was born in Somalia, and I grew up all over the place.

00:05:38.460 My family left Somalia when I was about seven or eight years old, and then we lived in Saudi Arabia, in Ethiopia.

00:05:45.820 I was in Kenya with my family for about 10 or 11 years.

00:05:52.200 And most of that time, my father was absent.

00:05:54.720 And then he came back in 1992 and took what he called his responsibility, which was to find me a husband.

00:06:06.940 And I didn't agree with his choice of husband for me.

00:06:11.660 This husband of mine then lived in Canada, and I was supposed to join him in Canada.

00:06:17.560 But instead of joining him in Canada, I went along with the family plan, which was to go to a relative in Germany and find my way from Germany to Canada.

00:06:30.140 But instead of doing that, I went to the Netherlands and I asked for asylum.

00:06:33.920 And this was back in July of 1992.

00:06:38.000 How old were you then?

00:06:38.780 So, I was 22 years old, and I took to a Dutch society like a fish to water.

00:06:48.100 I learned the language.

00:06:50.040 I made friends.

00:06:51.700 I went on to do a master's in political science.

00:06:55.060 And by 2000, 2001, in my early 30s, I had just done 30, I was leading the life of the average Dutch woman of my age and loving it.

00:07:12.460 I had just accepted a job with a think tank, a think tank that works for the Social Democratic Party.

00:07:19.580 And then 9-11-2001 happened.

00:07:25.440 Muslim terrorists, 19 of them, took passenger airplanes and started to bring down the Twin Towers. 0.86

00:07:34.200 They wanted to bring down the White House. 0.96

00:07:36.080 They had brought down a wing of the Pentagon.

00:07:38.780 And you were old enough to remember that that was a significant moment in history for those of us who were old enough to understand what was going on.

00:07:51.140 There were a lot of conversations people were having in the Netherlands and abroad.

00:07:55.380 This has to do, some of them said, with American foreign policy.

00:07:59.120 They said it had to do with injustice against the Palestinian people.

00:08:02.960 They said that the 19 men were poor and oppressed and victims of, you know, economic challenges.

00:08:15.220 And I said that it had nothing to do with any of that, that the leader of the 19 men left us enough information.

00:08:22.980 And we were able to find enough information to point that what motivated them was the conviction, acting on the conviction of the religious beliefs.

00:08:32.680 They were waging jihad and to pretend otherwise was wrong.

00:08:37.820 And I didn't understand how sensational that would be.

00:08:41.000 And I was given platforms by some of the Dutch newspapers, radios and television.

00:08:46.060 And from being a complete unknown who had just graduated, I became this, depending on who you talk to, either famous or infamous person.

00:08:59.260 And I think the rest of the story is public and documented and infidel. 0.94

00:09:05.760 And you, you, are you, I know that at one point in your life you, you had guards accompanying you wherever you went.

00:09:14.500 Is that still the case?

00:09:16.700 That's still the case.

00:09:18.100 And Jordan, as you know, with security issues, the main instruction I've had over these years is don't talk about that.

00:09:25.640 But yes, that's still the case.

00:09:27.460 And aside from a lot of, you know, my family members acting disappointed and even threatening me, losing some of my Dutch friends because they thought that I was bending toward the right, Islamophobic.

00:09:43.860 Yeah, I also had to live with death threats.

00:09:46.880 And it's very interesting when you look at that, you know, if you go back in that time when we were discussing the threats to free speech.

00:09:55.920 And I know a lot of people were in denial, probably are still in denial about it, but where they would say there is no, there's really no distinction here to see between Muslim civilization and Christian civilization, Western civilization, other civilizations, all cultures are equal and so on.

00:10:17.300 And there's just, you know, there's just, you know, a handful of bad people who are giving everyone else a bad name.

00:10:22.460 But then over and over again, we saw the threats to the freedom of conscience, the freedom of speech, women's rights, the freedom of association, the freedom of the press.

00:10:33.380 And never, ever did I think that we would have what we now have, which is not a threat from outside forces, whether they are religious or not, but a threat from the inside, from our own universities, where a conversation like the one we're having now, or the subject of this book is going to be misinterpreted, which is a charitable way of saying it's going to be dismissed.

00:11:00.860 Yes, well, I must say, I'm quite terrified to have this conversation.

00:11:07.300 And I was also going to ask you immediately, what possibly possessed you to write this book?

00:11:15.100 I mean, it's as if in some sense, you're looking at a sequence of hornet's nests, and decided to take a swing at the largest one.

00:11:22.560 I mean, I think there's every reason to believe that, at least in the possibility, that when I air this episode, my channel will be demonetized, and that it could conceivably be taken off the air altogether.

00:11:35.420 And I've had my fair share, not to the same degree you have, certainly, but I've had my fair share of public attack.

00:11:43.600 And, you know, I'm rather embarrassed to admit that I don't have the same stomach for it that I once did.

00:11:51.380 So, but anyways, onward and upward, hypothetically.

00:11:58.040 So, back to this, I guess we'll start to talk about this book, Prey, Immigration, Islam, and the Erosion of Women's Rights.

00:12:06.320 I had an uneasy feeling reading it continually.

00:12:11.020 I mean, you do say right off the bat, this is a trigger warning for the entire book.

00:12:17.800 Reading it, you should be triggered.

00:12:19.540 Well, I would say I was triggered by reading it.

00:12:21.620 I was triggered partly as a social scientist, I would say, to begin with.

00:12:25.760 Because as I went through the initial part of the book, in particular, which deals with statistics pertaining to the sexual assault of women,

00:12:36.680 I was reminded of the many studies that I've been involved in dealing with complex, multifactorial problems.

00:12:44.180 And it's very, very difficult to deal scientifically, or mathematically, or statistically, with a complex social issue.

00:12:55.200 And you run into that problem, or encounter that problem over and over, among many other problems,

00:13:01.180 when you're formulating your argument to begin with.

00:13:04.120 For example, you're, and stop me if I get any of this wrong,

00:13:09.320 you're making a case that there is some threat to women's rights in Europe, particularly,

00:13:17.640 and that that's associated with immigration.

00:13:19.460 And that some of that threat takes the form of enhanced susceptibility, increased susceptibility to sexual assault.

00:13:28.200 And then you start to delve into the sexual assault statistics.

00:13:31.800 And then you run into the immediate problems.

00:13:35.740 And it's perhaps worthwhile to walk people through what some of these problems are.

00:13:41.500 How do you define sexual assault, for example?

00:13:47.420 Now, you could define it as the, if you define it by the most severe crimes, let's say, rape.

00:13:57.460 Then you miss all the data that might be obtained when you consider all the other forms of sexual misbehavior

00:14:05.660 that might be regarded as assault, unwanted touching on a street, for example.

00:14:11.580 But if you include those, then you risk minimizing the magnitude of the extremely serious forms of sexual assault, like rape.

00:14:23.300 And especially if you do it over a lifetime and crank up the prevalence rate so high that they start to become meaningless.

00:14:30.900 Now, I know it's an appalling thing that a very large percentage of women, and perhaps an unknowable percentage, 1.00

00:14:37.760 face unwanted physical, unwanted sexual attention, psychological and physical.

00:14:44.020 But if the definition of that becomes so lax that it's 100% of women that suffer from it,

00:14:51.540 then you divert attention away from, for example, from the more serious forms of sexual assault.

00:14:57.040 So it's, and then you outline as well, the difficulties of doing cross-cultural comparison,

00:15:03.720 cross-country comparisons, because the definitions vary so much from state to state,

00:15:08.000 and the difficulty of tracking change in sexual assault prevalence in any given country

00:15:14.080 because of the changing definitions of sexual assault that occur within states.

00:15:18.620 And so I was tempted to throw up my hands at one point and think, well, it's impossible to get to the bottom of this.

00:15:26.200 So in the face of all that complexity, what argument have you laid out?

00:15:31.640 And why do you think it's justifiable?

00:15:35.000 So the argument I'm laying out, first of all, is an, it's the story of women and their safety in the public space.

00:15:46.220 So in this book, I'm not making, I'm not laying out an argument about sexual violence committed by intimate partners.

00:15:56.700 If you wanted that, it would probably be easier to get those statistics.

00:16:01.380 It would be harder to find them categorized along ethnic lines, but still possible.

00:16:06.660 And I'm not talking about sexual violence against women in, say, in the office, at work.

00:16:16.360 The themes that were brought to light by the Me Too movement.

00:16:21.040 So those two things are not the subject of this book.

00:16:24.040 What I'm talking about is the public space.

00:16:26.220 And so I don't start fast with statistics.

00:16:30.740 So I, you know, I really want, I'm not a social scientist and I don't think of myself as a social scientist in terms of trying to acquire empirical data, analyze that and interpret it.

00:16:45.040 What I do is it starts with experience.

00:16:47.300 It is in Northern European countries, a decade and a half ago, maybe even a decade ago, women took it for granted that they were safe once they left their front door.

00:17:02.980 Not all women, some neighborhoods are worse than others. 1.00

00:17:06.220 But in general, in 1992, when I came to Holland, I don't recall ever being, feeling unsafe in the public space.

00:17:18.320 I was with my Dutch friends and asking, I thought it was striking that women took it for granted in the Netherlands that they were safe in the public.

00:17:27.400 And I saw that in other Northern European countries.

00:17:30.060 And when I asked questions about that, they said, what is, are you out of your mind?

00:17:35.480 What's wrong with you?

00:17:36.920 Where you come from?

00:17:38.340 Don't you take it for granted?

00:17:39.760 And I described to them the societies that I grew up in and how incredibly difficult it was for a woman to get out of her front door and enter the public space without being catcalled after.

00:17:55.440 And so then I go from the descriptions of verbal sexual violence or sexual propositions that are inappropriate and lewd and obscene and are harmful and hurtful all the way to rape.

00:18:15.460 And these women were just stunned. 1.00

00:18:17.700 A decade later, I'm hearing from white women in some of these countries describing situations that I thought were, but that's weird, that's very interesting, that's a real change.

00:18:32.280 And Jordan, I know you know a little bit of my background, but I've also been engaged in this debate about Islam, integration, immigration, the unintended consequences of immigration and all the taboos around that.

00:18:45.280 And so when I first proposed writing this book, it was, for instance, my husband saying, the argument will not, it won't go anywhere because you will not be able to get to the statistics.

00:18:58.460 And I thought, well, I'll try.

00:19:00.900 And so I started calling up these justice departments of these various countries, and they would provide me with the reports they had made of sexual violence against women in the public space.

00:19:13.380 And some countries, again, totally as you described, the definitions shift.

00:19:22.260 Some countries say, we do record sexual violence against women, but not the ethnicity of the perpetrators or the religion of the perpetrators.

00:19:34.620 In some countries, you would find the testimonies of the victims, and they would say, that was an Arab-looking man, that was a black man, that was a man who spoke with a foreign accent.

00:19:45.900 And I would ask the people who say that they've collected these statistics, why don't you have that information input?

00:19:52.400 And then you would always run, it would always be off the record, but you would always run into the issue of, well, the issue of immigration is really controversial.

00:20:05.780 The issue of Islam is really controversial.

00:20:08.500 And if you take those two and then you link it to sexual violence, oh, my God, you're going to empower the right-wing populist parties.

00:20:17.740 You're going to stigmatize Muslims and Islam. 0.78

00:20:21.540 It's not all Muslim men. 0.92

00:20:23.060 It's a universal phenomenon.

00:20:25.120 And I agree with all of these things, but we still have a problem.

00:20:30.060 The safety of women in general in the public space is compromised.

00:20:35.740 So how can we collect statistics if, as a social scientist, you start shrouding all these issues with complex cultural and political factors?

00:20:49.700 Please, Jordan, let me give you an example.

00:20:55.040 From January of last year to January of this year, I think today is what the last day was, the first of February.

00:21:02.420 We have had all to live with the pandemic.

00:21:08.560 We've had a lot of conversations and disagreements about it.

00:21:12.380 But in one year, we've been able to collect the most important data, statistical data that we need about what the virus is, who's affected, who's likely to die, who's likely to survive.

00:21:26.900 What are the things that we need to do?

00:21:29.520 And we have, in response to that data, in response to that knowledge that we gather, put policy or policies in place that constrain our liberties to a great deal.

00:21:44.320 We've overcome huge taboos.

00:21:45.900 So the problem I'm talking about, this public safety and the safety of women, I want to date it back at least for two decades when it comes to women in the general public space. 0.95

00:21:57.760 And we can never even agree on what data is important, let alone collect it effectively and let alone produce effective policies to address that.

00:22:06.940 So I'm going to ask you rude questions, because they're the sorts of questions that are going to be brought to bear in relationship to this book.

00:22:19.580 And so they popped into my mind constantly. 0.99

00:22:23.600 In light of the fact that it's so difficult to gather data on something, let's say, as definable as rape, a physical, and we could narrow that down even more, unwanted physical sexual penetration of a vagina by a penis. 0.94

00:22:41.920 How do you go about ensuring that your sense that the safety of women, which is a much vaguer construct, say, term, concept, that the safety of women in the public domain has been compromised? 0.81

00:23:00.200 That's the first thing, because if that isn't the case, because I kept wondering, well, what exactly is the problem here?

00:23:06.540 And I did believe, as a consequence of reading your book, that your primary concern was that as the public domain, if the public domain becomes less safe, then women are going to have to retreat from engagement on all sorts of public fronts.

00:23:24.820 And that there's nothing about that that's good.

00:23:27.240 That, I believe, is the main thrust of your argument, and that that and so then we'd have to ensure that not that women's safety is in fact being compromised, that they feel that it's been compromised.

00:23:41.840 And then the next part of the argument is that that can be associated with an increase in immigration, specifically from Islamic countries.

00:23:51.520 And you even have some doubt about that, I believe, because at one point in your book, you talk about the problem, the cultural problem that might be behind this being perhaps not so much Islam, but polygamy itself and its influence, its influence on Islam.

00:24:07.840 So I'm not disputing your claims, I'm trying to adopt, as I always do when I read anything, well, anything, I would say, the most critical stance to find out what's solid.

00:24:23.980 And so you're obviously concerned about the safety of women.

00:24:26.760 What makes you think that your concerns are warranted?

00:24:29.720 So, again, I want to be, and I don't think it is rude at all, I think asking these questions is not only justified, it's crucial.

00:24:43.320 Yes, it's absolutely necessary for this issue to ever be dealt with one way or the other.

00:24:49.860 Yeah, or any other social issue that is of this magnitude, I think the most important thing that I can do, any other observer can do, is to say, I want this to be questioned.

00:25:03.040 And one of the things about the hard sciences, for instance, is that you could replicate data, and then you could experiment, you can then falsify or verify.

00:25:15.440 As you know, with these types of very complex social issues, that is very, very difficult.

00:25:22.200 Having said that, if you were to go out and take the exact same steps that I have done, I challenge you, I will say, I bet you, you will reach the same conclusions.

00:25:33.480 Now, it is very important to make the distinction between something as gruesome and as horrific as rape.

00:25:41.320 And there is rape by one individual against another individual, but sometimes it's done in groups.

00:25:47.820 That's even more horrific.

00:25:50.560 And it's not nearly as horrific as somebody calling you bad names as you, you know, walk by or touching you.

00:26:00.320 So, in terms of what is most gruesome, it is rape, especially by groups, and then very often that leads to homicide.

00:26:12.920 So, some of the victims actually die.

00:26:15.180 And I didn't want this book to be just about that.

00:26:18.900 When something like that happens in a European country, that is recorded.

00:26:25.500 And, in fact, the authorities make an attempt at finding the perpetrators and bringing them to justice.

00:26:34.620 Now, you can debate if the severity of the punishment fits the crime.

00:26:39.920 I mean, in some of these countries, these conversations are going on, but no one is debating that that is horrific and that that should be, and that's, you know, you could only look at those statistics.

00:26:51.740 If you did that, and then you ask those same authorities for the origins of the perpetrators, in many countries you are going to run into, we don't record, we just don't record that kind of data.

00:27:08.000 And they have reasons for that.

00:27:10.620 Germany, for instance, because of the history of the Second World War and the Holocaust and what they had done to all sorts of minorities and other countries, like even the Netherlands, I don't think they would record the religious aspect of it.

00:27:25.580 Some of them will, though, record.

00:27:28.580 I've seen this in Norway.

00:27:29.820 I've seen this in Denmark.

00:27:30.840 I've seen it in Austria, even in Germany.

00:27:32.880 Germany, at a given moment, there was a recording of the testimony of the victim or witnesses.

00:27:42.900 Or some of the reporters would say, today in court, case XYZ was tried and the perpetrator was from Iraq or Afghanistan or Syria or Somalia or whatever.

00:27:54.520 And as things evolved, journalists were told not to do that.

00:28:01.360 And victims would sometimes testify, those who survive the ordeal, and if this goes to justice, they would describe the physical characteristics of the perpetrators.

00:28:15.680 Now, that is the most gruesome aspect of it.

00:28:18.040 Now, go to the lightest.

00:28:20.320 Let's just say the verbal abuse, the touching, the groping, stuff that in some countries is criminalized.

00:28:28.800 Recently, in some countries, it's not yet criminalized.

00:28:31.580 But stuff that is seen as inappropriate towards women, things that make women feel unsafe.

00:28:37.920 And again, the victims of that kind of behavior will describe who the assailants are.

00:28:43.940 And sometimes those recordings, at first, some of these countries would put down that information, these data points, and see them as important.

00:28:56.700 But then in come the political correctness, the identity politics, immigration is sensitive, Islam is sensitive, we don't want to stigmatize.

00:29:05.740 And then you will see these data points being dropped.

00:29:09.580 You will see statistics that make it very clear that there is a correlation, at least, between a rise in sexual violence against women and immigration.

00:29:22.180 And then someone else will be commissioned and will be told, okay, can you please give that a second look?

00:29:27.680 And they would come and they would say, you know what, sexual violence against women is universal. 0.98

00:29:31.260 Yes, well, that's part of the complexity of the problem, because I was thinking as well, well, you also point out, for example, that many cases of sexual assault are never, they're never brought to the police.

00:29:46.640 And no one knows how many cases are like that.

00:29:49.240 And that's even more likely to be the case for the more minor forms, if we're allowed to make a hierarchy of sexual crimes, which I think is absolutely necessary.

00:29:57.600 It's even more true for the more minor forms of sexual harassment, which I would say would certainly be certainly be of sufficient unpleasantness to potentially restrict women's, at least their sense of freedom in the public domain.

00:30:16.760 But, so, a critic, and you cover this in the book as well, a critic might object, well, this is going to happen under any immigration scenario, if the majority of the immigrants are male, because obviously males are implicated in this sort of crime, and if they're young, because young males are more likely to be criminal in all regards.

00:30:42.120 And so, maybe it has nothing to do with country of origin, or ethnicity, or religious background, but it's purely a demographic matter.

00:30:53.760 And then there's another issue, which is, even if it is true, that immigration policy tilts so that young males are more likely to immigrate, that doesn't necessarily mean that that should be stopped.

00:31:09.840 There's a price to be paid for it, but there's potential benefits from it as well.

00:31:13.220 And so, lay out for everyone exactly what you think the problem is, and why, see, because the other thing I thought too was, well, why did Ayan's critics are going to say, there's lots of contributors to violence against women that could conceivably be talked about.

00:31:34.880 And you might say, well, you should attend to those that are the most dramatic, the most consequential, the most severe, but perhaps also to those that might be the most easily addressed.

00:31:46.740 So, for example, I always think when I look at stats about violence against women, that we should have a conversation, a protracted conversation about alcohol.

00:31:54.780 Because if you, alcohol contributes victims and perpetrators of violent crimes, about 50% of them are alcohol intoxicated.

00:32:05.440 It's a massive contributor to violence of all types, domestic violence, every type of violence.

00:32:11.280 And so, if the kind of violence that you're describing is, in fact, related to immigration, which is a difficult thing to prove, how high up in the hierarchy of things to be concerned about that should that be?

00:32:27.360 Especially given the benefits of, the humanitarian benefits even, of a relatively more open immigration policy.

00:32:36.300 So, here, I think, again, we're going to start talking about the trade-offs.

00:32:43.640 And I think in terms of these trade-offs, what we're seeing is that the way I see it is that the rights of women and their freedoms and their safety is being compromised.

00:32:57.460 When, say, you know, is immigration beneficial, is, and then, like the way you say it, even on humanitarian grounds, just being compassionate to fellow human beings, right, from Syria, different parts of Africa, different parts of South Asia.

00:33:17.700 So, these men are suffering, and we should feel compassion for them.

00:33:23.260 I think it should be possible to feel compassion for them and accommodate them in every way we can without selling out women. 0.96

00:33:33.620 Now, in terms of the contention that that particular demographic, when you have young men of a certain age, in large groups, they tend to engage in violence, including sexual violence.

00:33:49.000 That is true.

00:33:49.660 I don't dispute it.

00:33:50.620 I describe it in the book.

00:33:51.820 Anywhere where you have any kind of conflict, the civil wars, the wars that Europe overcame, even gang violence here in the United States of America, look at places like Guatemala, El Salvador, all of those places where you have a cohort of young men with no jobs, with no purpose in life, and in a machismo type of society, there is violence, there's disorder, and then including sexual violence.

00:34:21.080 So, that's not something I'm disputing or something that I want to exaggerate.

00:34:26.600 In terms of the alcohol component, I think we have had and probably will continue to have that conversation about, say, the context I'm thinking of is in college, most colleges, where young men will drink and young women will drink, and then they will go off into their dorms.

00:34:49.580 Both of them drunk, and up to a point, the young man involved will argue, I thought all this time, that it was voluntary.

00:35:00.660 And the next morning, the young woman will wake up and say, it wasn't.

00:35:04.420 And that is, I think, a conversation we will continue to have, and you're absolutely right.

00:35:09.620 If you consume that amount of alcohol and you put yourself in a vulnerable place, I think you should hold yourself as an individual, and I'm talking about as the female as well, that you have agency, you have responsibilities.

00:35:24.140 And we should raise our girls, if they don't want to have sex, then don't go to the dorm, then don't go to the room at 10 p.m., and don't drink as much as, you know, enough to overwhelm you.

00:35:37.580 So, that's a debate that we are going, we will continue to have, but that's not the subject of this book.

00:35:43.300 So, the critics are going to...

00:35:45.660 Jordan, but before, please, before we go to the next one, the cases I describe, let's just say, okay, the statistics, my critics, let's say my critics might look into these statistics and say there's nothing to see here.

00:35:59.880 All right, then you go to the description that I get from the women, and I'm not talking about a context of women who are behaving in ways that might be confusing.

00:36:16.100 That's not what I'm talking about.

00:36:17.360 I'm talking about a woman, a mother in a park who's pushing her toddler, pushing her baby with her toddler walking next to her, or a woman jogging, or a woman going to do her grocery shopping, or a woman coming home from work and taking the train and who is terrified by a group of young men who think it's a game.

00:36:37.200 I'm talking about different things where you would say, I'd say, I'll give you another data point.

00:36:43.920 There are now neighborhoods where European women have decided, no one is going to protect me, so I just won't go there. 1.00

00:36:52.860 There are two documentary makers that I've spoken to who have, you know, because the phenomenon has been going on for some time, have decided they were going to make a documentary about this.

00:37:02.860 Visit these women-free zones and actually confront the men, the proprietors of these places, and say, there's that one example where they order, I think, coffee, and they're asked to leave. 1.00

00:37:17.460 And they have a conversation about, but why should I leave?

00:37:21.900 These are female filmmakers who are doing this. 1.00

00:37:24.580 These are female filmmakers who have seen in France, certain neighborhoods have become inaccessible for women.

00:37:33.740 They want to address that.

00:37:35.400 They go and talk to the proprietors of these cafes and things.

00:37:39.180 And who is it that brings up the cultural element?

00:37:42.660 It's not the women. 1.00

00:37:44.420 It's not the researcher or the statistician.

00:37:47.240 It's the men themselves who say, no, you're not safe here.

00:37:50.900 It's inappropriate.

00:37:51.580 And she says, but this is his, this is not like some place in Algeria.

00:37:56.820 And he says, this part is, you better go.

00:38:00.120 We have another example in Sweden, Northern Europe, where a politician is taken to a neighborhood and he's asked, what is missing?

00:38:09.500 And he's baffled and he couldn't imagine what was missing.

00:38:12.860 And he looked around, it was women. 0.99

00:38:14.960 So there are ways of looking at the complexity of this issue.

00:38:18.740 And not only relying on the statistics that are gathered by the institutions that are actually supposed to be enforcing the values, the rule of law, the protection of women, because they gather the data.

00:38:38.160 And like you, when you said, I finished the book and then I throw my hands up in the air, what are we going to do about it?

00:38:43.460 Many of them do exactly that.

00:38:45.020 They throw their hands up in the air and they decide, let it be.

00:38:48.280 Yeah, well, it's very difficult for me to understand in the present political state of the West.

00:38:54.600 It's very difficult for me to understand how a conversation about this can really be undertaken because I don't think we're capable of doing it.

00:39:02.140 I mean, which is partly why it's so stressful to undertake, to try to undertake a conversation like this.

00:39:10.340 I guess what we're trying to do, the problem is, is that we're pitting two virtues against each other.

00:39:16.220 And those are the most difficult moral conundrums.

00:39:20.600 It's not wrong versus right.

00:39:22.340 It's right versus right.

00:39:24.120 Yes.

00:39:24.560 And on the one hand, there's compassion for the dispossessed, including dispossessed young men in war-torn countries, war-torn and catastrophically riven countries, and the benefits of immigration economically and on humanitarian basis.

00:39:43.860 And then on the other hand, there's the safety of women, and it's very difficult not to be for both of those, but unfortunately, there are circumstances where the interests are not going to align.

00:39:57.680 In a context like this one, and the context is where we have been having conversations, not just about having compassion for dispossessed men and not allowing them to then violate the rights of women.

00:40:14.740 We've been having similar conversations about the limits of free speech.

00:40:18.620 And what you sometimes see is people concluding, well, let's not have that win-win, where we protect free speech, but we also protect against incitement and violence.

00:40:30.480 That would be a rational discussion to have.

00:40:32.620 It would be a rational outcome.

00:40:34.140 It would be a good outcome for our society.

00:40:36.740 We have this other confrontation, say, between transgender rights and then compromising the rights of women.

00:40:43.400 We could have a win-win.

00:40:44.560 We can lift up transgender people and respect their freedoms and their dignity, and for them to live the way they want to live without compromising the rights of women.

00:40:54.460 But that is the context we live in, and that's when you open this conversation.

00:40:59.000 You said you were terrified of being deplatformed if we were to have this conversation.

00:41:03.560 And I think it's very, very important in a free and liberal society that adheres to the rule of law to have these uncomfortable conversations.

00:41:12.380 I don't care.

00:41:13.280 So let's walk through the central argument again, is that you're attempting to demonstrate in the book that using statistics, and you outline the unreliability of the statistics, and the difficulty of obtaining them, but using statistics and also on-the-ground anthropology and case reports, essentially, to make the case that there has been a deterioration in the public safety of women over the last, you'd say, 10 years.

00:41:43.140 10 years, perhaps?

00:41:43.640 I think in the last 10 years, it's been more pronounced.

00:41:52.640 But I think it's been going on for at least 20 years, depending on where you are.

00:41:59.840 So certain neighborhoods in Paris, or Massaya, or Malmo, you could say, or in certain, you know, Tower Hamlets area in the UK, right around London, some of those places you could go as far back as 20 years, even longer.

00:42:18.880 And that, again, that that deterioration is linked to poor immigration policy, or to what exactly is the problem?

00:42:33.000 Is the problem the immigration policy?

00:42:35.080 Because I might also say, I mentioned youth and masculinity as contributing factors to violent behavior.

00:42:41.520 But unemployment as well is going to be a contributing factor.

00:42:46.700 I know that's all true.

00:42:48.260 So all the socioeconomic factors, these are all contributing factors.

00:42:54.020 And people actually are, I would say, more willing to talk.

00:42:58.820 They feel like they're more licensed to talk about the socioeconomic factors than they are licensed to talk about the cultural factors.

00:43:06.440 So if you have men and families, men and women, come from countries where men and women relate to one another differently, in the public space and in the private space, and then they come to liberal societies, and the values are different, then, yes, all the very complex socioeconomic aspects are there.

00:43:29.720 But the question is, are those the defining ones, or is it the cultural aspects?

00:43:35.600 And then my conclusion is, it is poor integration policies.

00:43:40.620 In other words, poor assimilation policies.

00:43:43.660 And it is not, it's very difficult to culturally assimilate minorities if the receiving societies are not confident in their own values.

00:43:55.580 And so the process of assimilation and developing successful assimilation that is socializing these young men into the value of women, into the values of the host society, this is all compromised by that moral relativist attitude where we were saying, you can integrate, and we will only talk about the socioeconomic aspects.

00:44:22.060 When it comes to the values, when it comes to the values, we're not going to question those.

00:44:27.220 And so there was not, at any time there was a proposition to, yes, impose the values of liberal societies on the incoming minorities, there would be an opposition to that.

00:44:40.960 There still is an opposition to that from within saying, to do that is to recolonize them.

00:44:48.280 It's ethnocentric, it's Eurocentric, it's arrogant, it's racist, it's xenophobic, it's an excuse to keep people out.

00:44:58.820 And so the integration process has been frustrated on the one hand from the establishment that is relativist, on the other hand, by the populist and extreme right-wing parties that are saying, we don't want anybody assimilating, we don't want them to deport them. 0.69

00:45:15.200 And then you have this other third force, which is the Islamists, the radical Muslims, who are preaching in the mosques to Muslim minorities and telling them, do not adopt the values of the infidels, of the host societies, because they're un-Islamic. 0.87

00:45:34.280 And so if you say, if you ask me what the greatest failure is, it's the failure of the assimilation process, of the integration process.

00:45:41.480 Okay, and so let's decompose that.

00:45:45.560 If we had a more effective assimilation policy, what do you think that should look like?

00:45:52.420 I mean, the obvious issue is employment, and perhaps the problem would disappear to a large degree if immigration policy was matched to employment policy.

00:46:04.460 I'm obviously not sure how that could be done.

00:46:06.980 It's a very complicated problem.

00:46:09.340 But perhaps one policy shouldn't be developed in the absence of another.

00:46:13.960 But I'm wondering, so people read your book, and let's say they accept your conclusions that, and I'm going to get you to state again,

00:46:22.500 and we've sort of developed the first part of your statement, which is that women are being compromised with regards to their safety in public spaces,

00:46:32.880 and that's starting to impose counterproductive restrictions on their activities.

00:46:38.240 And the second part is, and that's importantly a consequence of poorly designed immigration policies that allow for the arrival of people from cultures where women's rights are not valued. 0.93

00:46:54.080 I'm not doing a disservice to your book to make that summary, I'm hoping.

00:46:59.440 No, you're not.

00:47:00.280 So I think it is totally possible to make the case that you can get people to come from societies that are very different in their cultural outlook and in their socioeconomic outlook.

00:47:17.960 But if then the receiving society acknowledges that there is a problem and develops an appropriate integration or assimilation regime,

00:47:27.840 then you could continue to have that flow of people coming in.

00:47:32.420 So yes, first of all, the immigration policies are themselves poorly designed.

00:47:38.820 There's a lot of talk of asylum and refugees and humanitarianism and compassion,

00:47:45.060 and very little about the consequences on the ground for the receiving societies as the scale, as the number goes up and up.

00:47:53.800 Well, you use Germany as an instructive example, and maybe we can just walk through that a bit,

00:47:58.800 because you stated quite bluntly in your book that Angela Merkel was motivated to switch her attitude towards refugees and the borders of Germany

00:48:10.740 as a consequence of an emotional response, as a compassionate response, and that well-thought-through policies weren't in place to back up her transformative actions.

00:48:23.440 And I spoke to German citizens who were livid with her, livid. 1.00

00:48:28.220 They voted for her, or they voted for the SDP, the Social Democratic Party in Germany.

00:48:34.720 So these are not right-wing extremists who want to close the doors to immigrants.

00:48:43.020 But these are people who are livid, livid, very angry, and saying this was spontaneous, it wasn't thought through.

00:48:53.120 And they pointed to all the integration issues that were already straining, let me say, relations between various ethnic groups.

00:49:05.160 And they said we hadn't even attended to that, these are people who were in the second generation, and we were having assimilation issues with those.

00:49:13.980 And now you open the gates and you say, okay, everybody come in because I feel sorry for this little girl who's really upset, and the cameras are on me.

00:49:27.560 So people were really angry with her.

00:49:29.220 But again, I still don't think that that answers the question, the deeper question, which most Europeans, maybe right now, most people on the left side of this issue don't want to face, which is, it's not the socioeconomics that changes the culture.

00:49:50.380 It is the culture that changes the socioeconomics.

00:49:53.840 This is a conversation ongoing right now in the United States as we speak about inequality and all sorts of facial confrontations.

00:50:03.940 If you come from a culture where young women are pulled out of school, where there is polygamy, where violence against women is taken for granted, just because you cross the border and you get a job is not going to change your attitude to women.

00:50:19.480 So at some point, we have to have that conversation about the relationship.

00:50:23.080 It seems to me that the left is facing a sequence of contradictions in some sense that haven't been or won't be thought through.

00:50:32.800 So, and I don't want to produce a straw man here at all.

00:50:38.840 So, it's a common claim that societies are patriarchal, Western society perhaps in particular, but let's put that aside for a moment, that human society tends to be unfortunately patriarchal.

00:50:56.640 So, we could accept that as a claim to begin with, and then we might say, well, that necessitates the proposition that some societies are likely to be more patriarchal than others,

00:51:07.460 whichever society, when we could have a debate about which those societies are.

00:51:10.540 And then the third thing we might conclude is that the more patriarchal society is, the more the men that belong to it are likely to oppress women.

00:51:20.800 And so then the question would be, how do you rank order societies with regards to their oppressive patriarchal nature?

00:51:26.960 And it seems to me that that's been done even by agencies like the UN, because it's easy enough to do research on which countries support women's rights most explicitly and implicitly and which don't.

00:51:42.880 And my sense is that, well, there's a handful of countries that always rank at the bottom.

00:51:48.940 I think the phrase patriarchy is not helpful in the least.

00:51:57.320 You have patriarchal societies that have developed laws and norms and values that protect women and are still patriarchal.

00:52:09.240 So this whole notion that, you know, it's the patriarchy that causes, then what?

00:52:16.400 Then you get into this crazy language of toxic masculinity. 0.64

00:52:20.360 And so then all men are bad and evil.

00:52:23.440 And so you have to turn men into what? 0.61

00:52:26.240 Women? 1.00

00:52:26.900 Something else?

00:52:27.720 I mean, what?

00:52:28.800 These conversations are just sort of, I mean, the more you dive into them, the more nihilistic they are.

00:52:35.700 In the sense that then you're going to have men and women on a war footing.

00:52:40.280 Because for feminists to achieve perfect equality with men, you have to diminish men. 1.00

00:52:49.080 You have to punish them. 0.99

00:52:50.180 You have to brutalize them. 0.98

00:52:51.600 That is not what I'm talking about.

00:52:53.200 And it's not what I'm seeking.

00:52:54.460 I believe that you can't socialize boys and men into accepting values that are actually respectful and protective and on equal footing.

00:53:09.780 Okay, so why do you think that?

00:53:11.260 Just let me attack this from a different perspective.

00:53:13.920 I know, for example, the research literature on antisocial behavior, criminal behavior.

00:53:19.960 And it appears that, first of all, antisocial behavior is unbelievably difficult to treat.

00:53:25.760 It looks like it's stable, about as stable as IQ across the lifespan.

00:53:31.440 If you're antisocial by the age of four, there's a strong probability that you'll be antisocial when you're a teenager and young adult, especially if you're male.

00:53:40.180 And there isn't any evidence that I know of in the research literature that anything at all can be done to ameliorate that.

00:53:46.840 The more hard-headed scientists that I've worked with who've concentrated on antisocial behavior basically end up making the claim that either addressing it has to be done at a very early stage of life, perhaps between the ages of two and four years old, for that minority of men who are males, who are aggressive even at that early stage.

00:54:10.180 Or you wait till the antisocial males mature out of it, which seems to occur around the age of 27.

00:54:17.160 So what makes you optimistic about the fact?

00:54:20.540 Let's assume that the assumptions that you're making are correct and that this is a cultural issue and that it's a serious cultural issue and that it can be associated with particular cultures.

00:54:32.080 What makes you think that it can be ameliorated?

00:54:34.480 Like what sort of education or training would be necessary to have an effect on that?

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00:58:41.820 The cultures I'm describing do not think in general that it is antisocial or negative in the least to be aggressive as a young male between the ages of 2 to 4 or beyond.

00:59:00.900 That is the main difference between, say, evolved cultures like what we are now, you know, the cultures that have produced the laws we live under in Western society,

00:59:16.280 and say the Islamic Republic of Iran, or the now civil war-torn Syria, or Saudi Arabia, or Somalia, where I come from.

00:59:27.640 It's not described as aggression in males is not seen as a bad thing.

00:59:33.740 And the ways of channeling that aggression are very different from the ways that male aggression is channeled in Western societies,

00:59:45.160 and the way young boys are socialized into, you know, becoming less aggressive or...

00:59:55.020 Well, they incorporate, the successful ones incorporate their aggression, I would say.

00:59:59.320 Like, they make it pro-social.

01:00:02.960 They don't stop being assertive.

01:00:04.780 They learn how to play games with others.

01:00:07.880 Yes, and they go to watch a soccer game or football or whatever.

01:00:12.280 Yeah, or they become competitive economically or competitive in sports, or they're still striving to win,

01:00:19.260 but not at the expense of someone, maybe.

01:00:22.780 The cultures I'm describing think that it is totally social and natural and appropriate for males to be aggressive.

01:00:31.040 We come from tribal cultures, and as a tribe, the only way you can overcome and dominate other tribes

01:00:38.620 is to have the largest number of aggressive males. 0.67

01:00:42.960 So that component is not socialized out of them.

01:00:46.300 It's socialized into them.

01:00:48.160 And that is something that we have to acknowledge.

01:00:50.140 Some of these values, some of these cultures are different.

01:00:52.700 I'm not blaming the young men for how, you know, how they turn out.

01:00:57.080 But I believe that they can be socialized into a different value system,

01:01:01.440 even before they get to the age of 27 or beyond the age of 27,

01:01:06.240 if they see that there's a value in it for them, if there's something in it for them.

01:01:11.500 So in a tribal society, there's something, there's an element, you know, I wanted my brothers,

01:01:20.460 my brother and my cousins, and we all talk of our male relatives as brothers and uncles,

01:01:27.560 to be the most aggressive and domineering, because that protects us.

01:01:32.980 I describe also these perspectives in the book.

01:01:35.660 That is a different context.

01:01:38.580 But then what happens when these encounters, such as large numbers of men immigrating from 1.00

01:01:45.140 aggressive tribal religious societies and coming into a society where that, you know, 0.89

01:01:52.540 most men have somehow found ways of channeling the aggression into something else.

01:01:58.260 These encounters are happening, and it's affecting women, it's affecting children,

01:02:04.560 it's affecting social cohesion, it's affecting how we think of ourselves as a liberal society,

01:02:11.900 but it's also affecting how the young men who are arriving think of themselves as not belonging anywhere.

01:02:19.900 And so right now the situation is lose-lose because we don't want to have these conversations.

01:02:25.140 There is a possibility, if you ask me about my optimism, there is a possibility that's a win-win

01:02:30.680 if we have the conversations, if we put everything on the table.

01:02:35.700 Do you know much about the immigration situation in Canada?

01:02:41.140 A little bit, yes.

01:02:42.960 And I know that Canada in some ways looks more like Europe than North America,

01:02:48.580 because they took in large numbers of immigrant men.

01:02:51.840 And some of these situations that I described, some of these anecdotes,

01:02:55.580 I think I could see a lot of them happening in Canada.

01:02:59.000 Yeah, well, it's not been obvious to me that in cities like Montreal and Toronto,

01:03:03.380 that we've seen a palpable increase in the kind of street activity

01:03:07.180 that has produced a decrement in women's feeling of safety. 0.98

01:03:11.300 I haven't, that's not something I've been personally aware of.

01:03:15.000 I don't know if that means that Canada might be doing something right.

01:03:21.240 It isn't obvious to me that our cities, Montreal and Toronto in particular,

01:03:26.960 which have the biggest immigrant communities, especially Toronto,

01:03:30.800 hasn't fallen prey to segregation and the development of communities

01:03:37.520 that are distinctively separate from the other communities in the city.

01:03:42.800 I mean, there are obviously ethnic enclaves in Toronto,

01:03:45.420 but I've never had the sense that we have the same problem here,

01:03:50.960 for example, as has manifested itself in France.

01:03:55.420 You know, and Canada does have an official policy of multiculturalism,

01:03:59.460 and I don't think that we're walking down the more intense assimilation route

01:04:05.320 that you were describing.

01:04:06.920 I mean, I'm obviously very pleased to see that.

01:04:12.960 It's certainly not been part of the kind of problems that you're describing

01:04:17.400 haven't really become part of the Canadian national conversation.

01:04:21.760 I mean, it's a strange time now, of course, with everyone locked down with COVID,

01:04:25.060 but it's possible.

01:04:26.560 I don't know why things have perhaps turned out better here,

01:04:30.080 but they seem to have.

01:04:31.940 Well, there's one, again, I'm not an expert on Canadian immigration

01:04:38.820 and integration policies,

01:04:40.120 but one thing that I found striking about Canada is the selection at the gate.

01:04:46.820 So Canada has its own resettlement policies.

01:04:49.800 It has a very aggressive, I would say, compared to some other countries,

01:04:53.660 trying to get in skilled labor, for instance.

01:04:57.160 You have to speak English, you have to meet a lot of criteria

01:05:02.260 before you can get into Canada.

01:05:07.660 But there's also geography.

01:05:09.520 I mean, if you look at the way it's become incredibly difficult

01:05:17.140 for European authorities to keep out spontaneous immigration.

01:05:22.920 So everybody wants to select their immigrants, 1.00

01:05:25.820 and for some countries it's easier than others.

01:05:30.140 And I think Canada and Australia are some of the countries

01:05:33.780 that have that geographical component.

01:05:38.960 Well, that's a very good point.

01:05:40.780 Yes, absolutely.

01:05:41.740 We're not as close to Syria,

01:05:44.700 and so that protected or that distanced us from the downstream consequences

01:05:54.160 of the Syrian conflict.

01:05:57.400 And not just the Syrian conflict,

01:05:59.800 the economic travails of the continent of Africa.

01:06:06.380 You know, you can come through Libya,

01:06:08.520 you can come through...

01:06:09.460 People just arrive in boats,

01:06:11.680 and the European authorities that deploy the coast guards

01:06:16.800 are confronted with,

01:06:18.140 do you let these fellow human beings die,

01:06:21.420 or do you rescue them and bring them in?

01:06:23.120 And then when you bring them in,

01:06:24.160 whose responsibility are they?

01:06:25.780 And the conversation doesn't seem to go beyond that.

01:06:29.100 And I don't think you've seen something like that in Canada.

01:06:31.860 We've seen something like this in the U.S.

01:06:34.320 from some of these failed or failing Latin American countries

01:06:37.880 with the caravans and building the wall.

01:06:40.000 And so we have those conversations in America,

01:06:42.760 but I don't know.

01:06:43.660 No, I think that's a good analysis.

01:06:46.260 The simplest explanation could well be

01:06:48.060 that Canada's geographical position

01:06:50.340 has protected it against many of the events

01:06:53.820 or shielded us against many of the events

01:06:55.980 that have made immigration such a contentious issue

01:06:58.160 in other countries.

01:06:58.960 Yeah, because you can select beforehand.

01:07:03.760 And also, I think Canada has...

01:07:05.900 Canada deports.

01:07:07.860 Canada requires, as far as I know,

01:07:10.240 that if you want to go and work and live there,

01:07:13.640 that you have someone to sponsor you.

01:07:16.940 All of these requirements that they can actually enforce.

01:07:21.120 Having said that,

01:07:22.260 you've had a number of honour killings in Canada.

01:07:24.840 You've had a number of terrorist attacks in Canada.

01:07:26.920 You have a number of extreme right-wing incidents

01:07:30.420 and attacks in Canada.

01:07:33.920 So it's not like you're protected from some of these manifestations.

01:07:42.080 So you suggested just a few minutes ago that...

01:07:45.900 And this is an extremely contentious issue.

01:07:47.680 I mean, one of the things I was struck when I read about...

01:07:50.460 When I read your book, Infidel, 0.98

01:07:51.700 it was so interesting to see how you responded to Dutch culture

01:07:56.600 because I got to see what one of the Western countries looked like

01:08:01.680 through the eyes of someone who was decidedly non-Western.

01:08:05.660 I remember, for example, your amazement

01:08:08.800 when you saw that a Dutch bus...

01:08:12.700 That there was a sign indicating when a Dutch public transportation bus

01:08:17.220 was going to arrive

01:08:18.600 and that it actually arrived at that time.

01:08:21.380 And I thought that was an extremely powerful part of the book

01:08:25.720 because it is a kind of miracle that that sort of thing can occur.

01:08:28.880 It requires an incredible amount of social organisation.

01:08:32.140 And Holland is a great example of a country

01:08:34.520 that couldn't even exist without that large-scale,

01:08:38.640 tightly-knit, almost machine-like organisation,

01:08:41.080 given that a huge proportion of their country

01:08:43.820 would actually be underwater if it failed.

01:08:46.800 Right.

01:08:47.360 And you're making a case in Infidel, 0.93

01:08:51.080 and you're making a case now that

01:08:52.660 in order for the West to develop an effective integration policy

01:08:57.300 that would enable an effective immigration policy,

01:09:00.060 that we have to have faith in our own values,

01:09:03.200 the values that gave rise, say,

01:09:05.240 to the idea of equal rights for women,

01:09:07.280 to accept that the rise of that idea

01:09:10.940 was something perhaps distinctively Western

01:09:14.300 and that we need to teach those...

01:09:17.280 We need to have enough faith in those presumptions

01:09:19.800 to teach them to newcomers.

01:09:21.680 That strikes me...

01:09:23.280 The probability that we're going to do that

01:09:25.880 strikes me as extraordinarily low,

01:09:28.280 if that's what's necessary,

01:09:30.620 because I don't think...

01:09:31.920 I mean, the last time I was in Holland,

01:09:33.760 I was struck by the degree to which

01:09:36.440 all the Dutch people that I talked to

01:09:39.140 seemed to accept the proposition

01:09:42.760 that they didn't really have much of a culture at all,

01:09:45.820 that there was nothing particularly special

01:09:47.720 about Dutch culture,

01:09:48.820 or perhaps that it even existed,

01:09:50.220 and certainly didn't feel that

01:09:52.240 it was of sufficient quality

01:09:55.000 to impose on other people.

01:09:57.760 I think we...

01:09:58.760 Right.

01:09:59.420 And how do you address when you're criticized

01:10:01.800 for being a neocolonist, let's say,

01:10:04.980 how do you...

01:10:05.700 You're in such a strange position

01:10:07.580 because of where you were born

01:10:11.280 and how you immigrated,

01:10:12.940 and do you think that there is a danger

01:10:17.060 in the Western assertion of primacy of value,

01:10:21.020 for example,

01:10:21.720 and is that such a danger

01:10:23.840 that it mitigates against any attempts

01:10:26.100 to assimilate immigrants, for example?

01:10:30.300 I think the way you started with,

01:10:33.820 you know,

01:10:34.360 the bus arriving on time

01:10:36.760 and for something like that to happen,

01:10:39.480 that a society that is hyper-organized,

01:10:43.600 and you want to call that Western,

01:10:47.620 I'm happy to call it Western, right?

01:10:49.780 Some people just call it modernity.

01:10:52.740 I don't know.

01:10:53.440 Some people think it was just lucky.

01:10:56.100 I think there's a bit of everything.

01:10:59.420 But if you then look at societies

01:11:02.120 where the bus doesn't come on time,

01:11:03.880 that is one factor.

01:11:05.040 And I just really like the time factor.

01:11:07.560 In fact, we should just have one podcast

01:11:10.480 only about that,

01:11:12.500 things happening on time

01:11:14.160 and in a predictable fashion

01:11:16.020 for millions of people.

01:11:19.400 How do you organize that?

01:11:21.140 And I think that sort of makes

01:11:22.720 Western society distinct 0.91

01:11:25.060 from societies that haven't managed

01:11:27.260 to find a way of dealing

01:11:30.240 with time effectively and efficiently.

01:11:33.860 The second thing is what we've been talking

01:11:35.820 about all this time,

01:11:37.560 and it's violence.

01:11:39.220 That is suppressing male violence

01:11:41.580 and channeling it

01:11:42.660 so that it has other outlets

01:11:44.740 instead of disrupting society

01:11:46.500 and it being used against women. 0.90

01:11:50.040 The third one, I would say,

01:11:51.800 is money.

01:11:53.500 And it is for societies

01:11:55.380 to have these large surpluses

01:11:58.220 where they can actually take care

01:12:00.300 of the weak.

01:12:01.420 They can afford compassion.

01:12:03.300 Compassion is not just something

01:12:04.580 you say,

01:12:05.400 I feel sorry for you.

01:12:06.660 We pay taxes

01:12:07.680 so that we can pay for people's,

01:12:09.960 for the dispossessed.

01:12:11.460 We can pay for their medical care.

01:12:12.900 We can pay for the housing.

01:12:13.820 And that, again,

01:12:16.320 greatly enhances stability

01:12:19.800 and social stability.

01:12:21.500 And then, finally, it's sex,

01:12:23.460 which is not something

01:12:24.440 that you can spontaneously have

01:12:27.940 whenever, whatever.

01:12:29.780 Again, it's not perfect,

01:12:31.480 but compared to some other societies,

01:12:33.960 unwanted diseases,

01:12:35.220 unwanted babies,

01:12:36.660 rapes and sexual violence,

01:12:37.960 all of that in Western societies

01:12:39.720 seem to be really different.

01:12:41.500 Now, you take those four factors

01:12:43.560 and you say,

01:12:47.480 we're going to bring people in from

01:12:49.360 or people from societies

01:12:51.080 who don't have that.

01:12:53.680 Should we bring them into this,

01:12:57.500 call it forced assimilation 0.53

01:12:59.120 or just socialization

01:13:00.720 or whatever you want to call it?

01:13:02.860 But if we fail to do that

01:13:06.180 and the number gets ever bigger,

01:13:08.840 then we are going to have

01:13:10.460 unstable societies.

01:13:11.840 We're going to have,

01:13:13.120 and the Dutch can say,

01:13:14.180 and I've had the Swedes

01:13:15.160 do the same thing.

01:13:16.000 I've had Germans say 0.97

01:13:17.420 the same thing to me,

01:13:18.500 French.

01:13:19.140 There is nothing uniquely different

01:13:21.000 from my culture.

01:13:22.700 Maybe because they take it for granted

01:13:24.560 because it's never been challenged.

01:13:26.600 They all look alike.

01:13:27.580 They think alike.

01:13:28.980 And then one day...

01:13:29.860 Well, you do take whatever's around you

01:13:31.820 all the time for granted.

01:13:33.220 And it's clearly the case

01:13:34.420 that we don't understand

01:13:35.740 our own cultures,

01:13:36.800 let alone other people's cultures.

01:13:39.540 You don't understand what you...

01:13:42.580 You don't understand what you have

01:13:45.300 until you don't have it anymore.

01:13:47.260 And what have you experienced

01:13:52.100 the West as having

01:13:53.420 the values that should be transmitted

01:13:56.000 to the immigrant population

01:13:58.620 that we're inviting in?

01:14:02.320 What's crucial in your estimation?

01:14:04.780 And how do you communicate it?

01:14:06.340 I mean, oh, you tried to do that

01:14:07.380 when you wrote Infidel.

01:14:09.300 Right.

01:14:09.880 And I'm trying to do it again

01:14:11.240 in this book.

01:14:11.880 And I've tried to do it in Heretic. 0.82

01:14:13.180 I tried to do it in every book

01:14:14.260 in using different sentences,

01:14:16.660 but pretty much saying the same thing,

01:14:18.400 which is before I came

01:14:20.260 to the Netherlands,

01:14:22.080 I knew of the concept of freedom,

01:14:25.360 but to me, it was a dream.

01:14:27.280 It wasn't something you had.

01:14:29.180 So when I came to Holland,

01:14:30.420 I was stunned, of course,

01:14:31.580 in a good way.

01:14:33.580 I felt safe as a woman

01:14:36.960 in any kind of space.

01:14:39.000 That's not something I was used to.

01:14:40.900 I was told that I had equal rights

01:14:43.640 before men.

01:14:44.620 So when the man that my husband,

01:14:46.740 my father married me off to,

01:14:48.700 when he came to claim me,

01:14:50.800 the woman at the asylum seeker center

01:14:52.480 told him,

01:14:52.900 you don't have to go with him.

01:14:54.080 You can call the police.

01:14:55.700 And we called the police

01:14:56.840 and I didn't go with him.

01:14:59.120 Right.

01:14:59.180 I can remember how stunned you were,

01:15:01.260 your accountant, Infidel,

01:15:02.440 that the police were actually there

01:15:03.840 to help you

01:15:04.560 and that you could rely on them.

01:15:07.340 You can rely on them.

01:15:08.360 And she explained,

01:15:09.200 and this is,

01:15:10.080 and then I said,

01:15:10.720 what can I do in return?

01:15:12.280 And she said,

01:15:12.680 you don't have to do anything in return.

01:15:14.340 This is the law.

01:15:16.160 And that was the law

01:15:17.660 when it was enforced.

01:15:19.020 And again,

01:15:19.480 that is something,

01:15:21.140 she was just as shocked as I was.

01:15:24.760 Because she said,

01:15:25.360 so there are places

01:15:26.180 where they do this sort of thing.

01:15:27.740 And it is,

01:15:28.400 oh my goodness.

01:15:29.660 So that I can give you

01:15:30.900 a whole list of things

01:15:32.080 that I didn't have.

01:15:34.220 And I even took it for granted

01:15:35.860 that I didn't have those things.

01:15:37.640 And then come to free societies

01:15:39.500 and then you can read

01:15:40.680 as many books as you want.

01:15:41.940 You can befriend whoever you want.

01:15:43.700 You can sleep with whomever you want.

01:15:45.360 You can,

01:15:46.220 you won't find,

01:15:47.320 you know,

01:15:47.700 you might be rejected

01:15:48.720 from this job or that job,

01:15:50.280 but it is taken for granted

01:15:52.240 that you can find your own employment.

01:15:54.400 And if you do,

01:15:54.920 you can keep the money

01:15:55.680 that you make from that.

01:15:57.280 I've been saying

01:15:58.200 the same,

01:15:58.840 same things over and over again.

01:16:00.280 You can associate

01:16:00.960 with whoever you want.

01:16:02.000 Again, in our conversation

01:16:03.760 when we started,

01:16:04.660 Ali,

01:16:04.880 I told you

01:16:06.120 some of these things

01:16:07.440 are changing

01:16:08.100 and they're not changing

01:16:09.280 just because of external factors

01:16:10.980 like Islam or immigration.

01:16:13.160 They're changing from within

01:16:14.440 because a lot of us,

01:16:16.780 people who are born

01:16:19.020 and raised here

01:16:19.780 for generations

01:16:20.600 have decided

01:16:21.760 that they are disappointed

01:16:23.100 in modernity.

01:16:24.060 They call themselves

01:16:24.740 postmodernists

01:16:25.780 or critical race theorists

01:16:27.160 or whatever you name it,

01:16:28.820 but this is ideology

01:16:29.860 that's taking on

01:16:30.960 and you can see it

01:16:32.500 in newsrooms

01:16:33.180 and, you know,

01:16:34.420 publication houses,

01:16:35.920 tech world,

01:16:38.120 and there is

01:16:39.340 an alarming rejection

01:16:41.700 of the fruits

01:16:43.560 of modernity,

01:16:45.600 of free speech,

01:16:47.340 of all the things

01:16:49.300 that I was impressed with

01:16:51.360 when I came to the West.

01:16:52.960 So you contrast

01:16:56.220 an Islamic attitude 0.72

01:16:58.460 towards women 0.70

01:16:59.300 with a Western attitude

01:17:00.400 towards women.

01:17:01.420 So do we say

01:17:02.760 that that's

01:17:03.380 a contrast

01:17:04.660 between

01:17:05.100 the Islamic attitude

01:17:07.180 towards women 0.70

01:17:07.840 and the Judeo-Christian

01:17:08.920 attitude towards women?

01:17:10.260 Is it reasonable

01:17:11.280 to make that

01:17:11.860 a religious issue?

01:17:12.900 And,

01:17:13.020 or,

01:17:14.420 what do you think

01:17:15.120 about that?

01:17:15.900 I mean,

01:17:16.140 is this,

01:17:17.260 is it...

01:17:19.180 Yeah,

01:17:20.220 it is a religious issue.

01:17:21.640 It's a cultural issue.

01:17:23.340 It's a,

01:17:24.200 it's also an issue

01:17:25.400 of not only generating

01:17:26.900 and being the motto

01:17:28.200 behind modernity

01:17:30.360 and constantly modernizing,

01:17:32.640 which is what

01:17:33.000 Western societies

01:17:33.840 are constantly doing.

01:17:36.160 And then,

01:17:37.300 obviously,

01:17:37.680 the religious component

01:17:38.740 for me,

01:17:39.460 when I analyze

01:17:40.400 the leadership

01:17:41.760 of Islam 0.99

01:17:42.440 is the disappointment 0.96

01:17:44.060 with modernity

01:17:45.340 and the rejection

01:17:46.080 of that.

01:17:47.400 And again,

01:17:47.740 that is why...

01:17:48.380 What are they rejecting,

01:17:49.360 do you think,

01:17:52.340 that,

01:17:52.740 and that we've accepted?

01:17:54.780 What are the differences

01:17:55.880 that,

01:17:56.320 that enables

01:17:57.320 the emergence

01:17:57.860 of the idea

01:17:58.880 that women 0.97

01:17:59.340 could be equal

01:18:00.140 or that they are equal

01:18:01.480 and that they should be,

01:18:03.040 that that equality

01:18:03.840 should be fostered

01:18:04.840 and treasured

01:18:05.420 and developed?

01:18:06.160 What's the difference?

01:18:08.860 I maybe,

01:18:09.440 I mean,

01:18:09.760 I'm not expecting you

01:18:11.100 necessarily to know

01:18:11.920 the answer to that,

01:18:12.840 but it is the issue.

01:18:15.620 Well,

01:18:16.120 the issue is

01:18:16.660 when you study

01:18:18.380 the narrative

01:18:19.460 that the radical Muslims

01:18:21.660 preach

01:18:22.820 and,

01:18:23.880 and propagate,

01:18:26.140 there is this

01:18:27.420 deep disappointment

01:18:29.180 that Islam 0.98

01:18:30.540 is no longer

01:18:31.480 the dominant force

01:18:32.660 of the globe.

01:18:34.360 And the answer

01:18:35.640 that they give

01:18:36.300 to that question

01:18:37.080 is because

01:18:37.980 they strayed away

01:18:39.360 from the pure doctrine

01:18:41.820 and the behavior

01:18:42.960 of the Prophet,

01:18:43.920 especially when he was

01:18:44.780 in Medina

01:18:45.360 and he had become

01:18:46.880 so powerful

01:18:47.600 he had conquered

01:18:48.520 not only Arabia

01:18:49.440 but then went beyond

01:18:50.500 and then his disciples

01:18:51.460 went to almost

01:18:52.840 every continent

01:18:53.680 and they were dominant.

01:18:56.440 Then what went wrong?

01:18:57.780 And I think people

01:18:58.440 like Bertrand Russell

01:18:59.300 and others

01:18:59.860 have tried to give

01:19:00.720 the answer

01:19:01.280 that they came

01:19:03.720 late

01:19:04.320 to the game

01:19:05.260 of modernity

01:19:06.100 and then had

01:19:06.900 these debates

01:19:07.660 about,

01:19:09.160 well,

01:19:09.800 if we want to move

01:19:11.020 forward

01:19:11.420 and catch up

01:19:12.420 with the West

01:19:13.740 whom they looked

01:19:14.660 down on,

01:19:16.500 then we have

01:19:17.460 to become

01:19:17.900 like them.

01:19:18.860 That was the attempt

01:19:19.800 that Kemal Ataturk 0.90

01:19:21.020 made in Turkey.

01:19:22.560 But then

01:19:23.420 another force,

01:19:25.100 a retrograde force,

01:19:26.720 these are our

01:19:27.600 modern Islamists,

01:19:29.940 said,

01:19:30.420 no,

01:19:30.900 that is actually

01:19:31.620 the wrong answer.

01:19:32.880 We have to

01:19:33.920 make them submit

01:19:35.060 to us.

01:19:35.840 And when I say

01:19:38.420 they reject

01:19:39.080 modernity,

01:19:40.860 they like

01:19:42.080 the gadgets

01:19:42.900 and the nuclear

01:19:43.820 weapons

01:19:44.360 and that sort

01:19:45.940 of modern

01:19:47.100 stuff that

01:19:48.020 makes them

01:19:48.800 feel dominant

01:19:50.140 or strong.

01:19:51.320 But when it

01:19:52.180 comes to

01:19:52.860 adopting

01:19:53.540 attitudes

01:19:55.220 such as

01:19:56.160 liberating

01:19:57.360 women, 1.00

01:19:58.540 they recoil

01:20:00.500 from that.

01:20:01.780 Absolutely.

01:20:02.580 They recoil

01:20:03.180 from that

01:20:03.720 because they think

01:20:04.440 that's what's

01:20:04.940 going to take

01:20:05.520 them apart.

01:20:06.180 That's looking

01:20:06.800 like them.

01:20:08.520 Or running

01:20:09.240 your societies

01:20:10.640 according to

01:20:11.440 that time

01:20:12.800 machine that

01:20:13.660 the West

01:20:14.060 does.

01:20:14.500 They think

01:20:14.860 that that's

01:20:15.380 all empty,

01:20:16.580 looking at

01:20:17.020 the clock

01:20:17.440 all the time.

01:20:20.920 So there are

01:20:22.160 aspects about

01:20:23.400 the West

01:20:23.820 that they admire

01:20:24.680 and want to

01:20:25.320 incorporate,

01:20:26.240 but the end

01:20:26.820 goal is

01:20:27.600 that it is

01:20:28.540 not,

01:20:29.260 it is not

01:20:30.940 their goal

01:20:33.160 to adopt

01:20:34.520 some of

01:20:34.960 these Western

01:20:35.660 values.

01:20:36.780 But a lot

01:20:37.420 of people

01:20:37.820 are voting

01:20:38.500 with their

01:20:39.020 feet.

01:20:40.020 There are

01:20:40.260 people who

01:20:40.820 are poor,

01:20:41.700 dispossessed,

01:20:43.200 subjected to

01:20:43.840 all sorts of

01:20:44.520 violence,

01:20:45.000 who want to

01:20:45.880 come to the

01:20:46.400 West and

01:20:46.900 start all

01:20:47.480 over again.

01:20:48.460 And those

01:20:48.840 are the people

01:20:49.240 we are talking

01:20:49.760 about.

01:20:50.240 And I think

01:20:50.600 to give

01:20:51.580 those people

01:20:52.120 a chance

01:20:52.640 to actually

01:20:53.320 become a

01:20:53.960 part of

01:20:54.460 modernity

01:20:55.340 and modern

01:20:55.720 society

01:20:56.220 is to

01:20:56.640 assimilate them.

01:20:57.360 And the

01:20:57.880 way to

01:20:58.220 do it

01:20:58.560 is just

01:20:59.180 by admitting

01:20:59.820 that some

01:21:00.600 of these,

01:21:01.420 the voting

01:21:01.860 with the

01:21:02.260 feet says

01:21:02.880 it all.

01:21:06.280 Well,

01:21:06.900 you know,

01:21:07.280 the classic

01:21:08.400 response to

01:21:09.520 that,

01:21:10.620 the classic

01:21:11.280 criticism of

01:21:12.980 that perspective

01:21:13.700 would be

01:21:14.180 that those

01:21:15.920 dispossessed

01:21:17.820 people wouldn't

01:21:18.540 have had to

01:21:19.100 vote with

01:21:19.520 their feet

01:21:20.180 if the

01:21:21.160 West hadn't

01:21:21.840 engaged in

01:21:22.560 its colonial

01:21:23.140 mission and

01:21:23.880 devastated the

01:21:24.740 economic

01:21:25.300 opportunities

01:21:26.720 of two

01:21:28.840 thirds of

01:21:29.300 the globe

01:21:29.740 while elevating

01:21:30.560 themselves to

01:21:31.440 positions of

01:21:32.460 unearned

01:21:32.860 superiority.

01:21:33.780 And of

01:21:34.660 course,

01:21:35.420 there's no

01:21:37.560 shortage of

01:21:38.140 evidence for

01:21:39.200 that if

01:21:40.140 that's the

01:21:40.600 evidence that

01:21:41.240 you choose

01:21:42.040 to look at

01:21:42.700 and sorting

01:21:44.800 that all out

01:21:45.500 seems to be

01:21:46.120 impossibly

01:21:46.720 difficult.

01:21:48.500 The West

01:21:49.520 is guilty

01:21:50.360 for all the

01:21:51.720 crimes that

01:21:52.240 have been

01:21:52.560 committed in

01:21:53.160 its name.

01:21:54.540 And many

01:21:55.620 of those

01:21:56.000 crimes

01:21:56.440 were real.

01:21:58.500 And so

01:21:58.900 we don't

01:22:00.440 know how

01:22:00.900 to uphold

01:22:01.660 what we

01:22:02.040 have of

01:22:02.420 value while

01:22:03.820 simultaneously

01:22:04.720 atoning for

01:22:05.540 our past

01:22:06.160 sins.

01:22:07.080 Maybe even

01:22:07.700 the ways I

01:22:08.560 would say

01:22:09.220 we could

01:22:09.660 at least

01:22:10.500 admit that

01:22:11.440 our past

01:22:11.920 sins were 1.00

01:22:12.580 the failure

01:22:13.960 to live up

01:22:16.900 to our

01:22:17.240 values rather

01:22:18.880 than the

01:22:19.380 values

01:22:19.780 themselves.

01:22:21.180 But it's

01:22:22.160 certainly not

01:22:22.660 the case that

01:22:23.880 everyone's going

01:22:24.440 to agree to

01:22:25.320 that.

01:22:26.280 It's a real

01:22:26.920 mystery why

01:22:27.820 the idea

01:22:29.740 of equality

01:22:31.780 between the

01:22:32.640 genders or

01:22:33.400 equality between

01:22:34.820 men in

01:22:36.540 general came

01:22:37.260 about.

01:22:38.780 To me it

01:22:39.760 seems to have

01:22:40.460 a deep

01:22:40.820 rooting in

01:22:41.280 the idea of

01:22:42.500 the universal

01:22:43.060 soul and the

01:22:44.560 intrinsic value

01:22:45.400 of each person

01:22:46.180 and the intrinsic

01:22:46.920 value of each

01:22:47.600 person's capacity

01:22:49.080 for speech and

01:22:50.320 creative production.

01:22:52.000 I think that's

01:22:53.560 a deeply

01:22:53.980 Judeo-Christian

01:22:55.340 idea.

01:22:56.300 Its roots go

01:22:57.120 deeper than

01:22:57.620 that.

01:22:58.300 I don't

01:22:58.720 understand.

01:23:00.320 I don't know

01:23:01.360 if there is

01:23:02.080 an Islamic

01:23:03.280 equivalent.

01:23:06.740 I think

01:23:07.580 first of all

01:23:08.140 just by

01:23:08.560 telling only

01:23:10.100 one side of

01:23:10.960 the story,

01:23:11.560 the story of

01:23:12.800 what is

01:23:17.140 making a lot

01:23:17.900 of people in

01:23:19.000 the West feel

01:23:19.620 guilty and that

01:23:20.380 they feel

01:23:20.780 that they

01:23:21.060 have to

01:23:21.380 atone for,

01:23:23.060 the colonization,

01:23:24.260 the slavery,

01:23:25.000 the segregation,

01:23:26.080 all of these

01:23:27.000 well-documented

01:23:28.180 terrible things

01:23:29.200 that Western

01:23:29.920 societies have

01:23:30.780 engaged in,

01:23:31.940 that is one

01:23:32.700 side of the

01:23:33.360 story, but

01:23:33.780 there is also

01:23:34.280 another side

01:23:35.060 of the story.

01:23:36.560 The other

01:23:37.280 side of the

01:23:37.840 story is that

01:23:38.780 it is

01:23:39.600 Westerners who

01:23:40.360 took the

01:23:40.880 initiative

01:23:41.500 among humanity

01:23:43.520 to change

01:23:44.480 all of that,

01:23:45.380 to end

01:23:46.000 slavery, to 0.58

01:23:46.700 end segregation,

01:23:48.100 to aspire for

01:23:49.140 equality.

01:23:49.640 So if you're

01:23:50.500 going to tell

01:23:50.980 the story,

01:23:51.480 then it's

01:23:51.800 better to

01:23:52.180 tell both

01:23:52.780 sides of

01:23:53.280 the story.

01:23:54.240 Now for

01:23:54.620 the people

01:23:55.100 who tell

01:23:55.660 only the

01:23:56.260 negative side

01:23:57.040 of the

01:23:57.320 story, who

01:23:57.760 are toppling

01:23:58.300 statues and

01:23:59.040 saying the

01:23:59.820 only way to

01:24:00.420 redeem

01:24:01.020 Westerners is 0.98

01:24:02.120 for them to 0.95

01:24:02.660 destroy everything

01:24:03.620 and start all

01:24:04.280 over again,

01:24:05.760 I think even

01:24:06.440 with those,

01:24:07.100 aside from

01:24:07.720 the obvious

01:24:08.740 nihilism,

01:24:10.400 the let's

01:24:10.800 just destroy

01:24:11.500 stuff, and

01:24:13.040 the selective

01:24:14.140 telling of the

01:24:15.080 story, there's

01:24:16.440 also an element

01:24:17.560 of superiority

01:24:18.800 in there.

01:24:20.420 An element

01:24:20.960 of, sorry,

01:24:21.680 an element

01:24:22.040 of?

01:24:23.040 Of superiority

01:24:24.200 or supremacy,

01:24:25.780 because only

01:24:27.720 whites and

01:24:29.340 Westerners are 0.99

01:24:30.100 held responsible

01:24:31.280 for bad

01:24:33.000 things they did

01:24:33.820 in the past

01:24:34.540 or do

01:24:35.060 today.

01:24:36.540 Do you

01:24:36.800 mean about

01:24:37.460 bad things

01:24:38.180 that happened

01:24:39.360 altogether,

01:24:40.380 or specifically

01:24:41.400 that bad

01:24:41.960 things, the

01:24:42.680 bad things that

01:24:43.240 were perpetrated

01:24:43.880 by Europeans?

01:24:45.460 I mean, it's

01:24:46.200 certainly the

01:24:46.640 case that

01:24:47.060 slavery was

01:24:47.840 a human

01:24:48.260 universal, it's

01:24:49.520 not something

01:24:50.100 unique to

01:24:50.680 European society

01:24:51.560 by any

01:24:52.020 stretch of

01:24:52.420 the imagination.

01:24:54.260 And so

01:24:54.580 was colonialism,

01:24:56.300 and so was

01:24:57.000 and is

01:24:57.700 segregation

01:24:58.480 still to

01:24:59.380 this day.

01:25:00.260 Take a

01:25:00.660 continent like

01:25:01.380 India, where

01:25:02.380 the caste

01:25:03.120 system is

01:25:03.840 still vibrant

01:25:04.640 and healthy,

01:25:06.080 or take any

01:25:07.300 of the Arab

01:25:08.420 countries where

01:25:09.280 people with

01:25:10.020 mice and

01:25:10.620 color are

01:25:11.140 still regarded

01:25:11.820 as slaves.

01:25:12.480 So I

01:25:14.060 think if

01:25:14.580 you want

01:25:15.000 to litigate

01:25:18.760 history and

01:25:19.600 all the

01:25:20.060 things that

01:25:20.500 were done

01:25:21.060 bad by

01:25:22.100 human beings,

01:25:24.160 selecting only

01:25:25.380 whites and

01:25:26.520 especially white

01:25:27.400 men and

01:25:27.900 saying only

01:25:28.580 they have

01:25:29.640 to forever

01:25:30.680 atone for

01:25:31.540 their sins

01:25:32.220 is in

01:25:33.400 itself an

01:25:34.060 expression of

01:25:35.380 supremacy

01:25:36.200 because holding

01:25:37.760 the Arabs

01:25:38.660 and holding

01:25:39.700 the Chinese

01:25:41.520 and the

01:25:42.520 Chinese right 0.94

01:25:43.320 now are

01:25:43.940 engaged in

01:25:44.620 a genocide

01:25:45.140 against the

01:25:45.900 Uyghur people. 0.97

01:25:47.240 We have

01:25:47.460 reports of

01:25:48.160 them forcibly

01:25:50.440 sterilizing 0.91

01:25:51.260 women. 0.96

01:25:52.100 Why can't

01:25:52.680 we hold

01:25:53.300 them to

01:25:53.660 the same

01:25:54.240 moral standard

01:25:55.460 that we are

01:25:56.460 holding ourselves

01:25:57.240 to?

01:25:57.840 So you think

01:25:58.380 it's inappropriately

01:26:00.540 colonialist for

01:26:01.900 white Europeans

01:26:04.160 to attribute

01:26:04.940 universal human

01:26:06.080 guilt to

01:26:06.640 themselves?

01:26:07.200 It's an

01:26:09.500 expression of

01:26:10.500 supremacy.

01:26:12.060 It's an

01:26:12.280 expression of

01:26:13.020 only we can

01:26:13.840 meet those

01:26:14.440 high, very

01:26:16.040 high standards,

01:26:17.280 not the rest

01:26:17.980 of humanity.

01:26:19.040 They are all

01:26:19.600 victims in one

01:26:21.160 way or the

01:26:21.840 other.

01:26:22.500 Or we just

01:26:23.320 take it for

01:26:23.880 granted.

01:26:24.240 They just

01:26:24.560 can't do it.

01:26:25.380 You know, the

01:26:25.720 Chinese and

01:26:26.760 their violations

01:26:27.400 of human rights,

01:26:28.720 why even address

01:26:29.560 it?

01:26:29.780 They don't know

01:26:30.140 how to do it.

01:26:31.520 So do you see

01:26:32.920 where there's the

01:26:34.100 nihilism, there's

01:26:35.120 the selective

01:26:35.740 telling of the

01:26:36.460 story, but

01:26:37.440 deep down when

01:26:38.520 you read this

01:26:39.960 stuff over and

01:26:40.620 over again, it

01:26:41.240 is like, actually

01:26:42.320 what you're saying

01:26:44.200 is you can hold

01:26:45.160 those standards to

01:26:46.080 yourself, but not

01:26:47.020 to me.

01:26:48.400 Well, I've never

01:26:49.120 heard that argument

01:26:49.880 before.

01:26:50.380 It's extremely

01:26:50.920 interesting and

01:26:51.880 very darkly

01:26:53.480 comical.

01:26:57.620 What conclusion

01:26:59.000 would you like

01:27:00.480 your readers

01:27:02.600 and anybody

01:27:03.740 concerned with

01:27:04.500 public policy to

01:27:05.600 come to as a

01:27:06.560 consequence of

01:27:07.360 reading, well,

01:27:08.460 let's say your

01:27:09.020 books, Prey in

01:27:10.340 particular, since

01:27:11.020 it's your last

01:27:11.640 book.

01:27:12.860 Yeah.

01:27:14.260 Do you think

01:27:17.220 that there is a

01:27:17.920 clash of

01:27:18.560 civilizations and

01:27:19.660 that we should be

01:27:20.280 aware of that?

01:27:21.560 It's manifestations

01:27:22.400 here and there?

01:27:23.820 I don't want to

01:27:24.660 put words in your

01:27:25.400 mouth.

01:27:27.660 Yeah, you're

01:27:28.340 right.

01:27:28.680 So there is

01:27:29.200 indeed a clash,

01:27:30.080 at least even if

01:27:30.780 you don't want to

01:27:31.380 call it a clash of

01:27:32.320 civilizations, because

01:27:33.800 people responded

01:27:34.680 badly to that, you

01:27:35.700 can call it

01:27:36.400 unmistakably a

01:27:38.480 clash of values.

01:27:40.700 And in that

01:27:42.920 encounter between

01:27:45.000 the cultures and

01:27:45.960 the value systems,

01:27:47.440 the conclusion of

01:27:48.540 this book is we

01:27:50.320 can assimilate or

01:27:54.580 integrate, whatever

01:27:55.520 the Europeans call

01:27:56.500 it, these young

01:27:58.300 men who are

01:27:58.900 dispossessed and

01:28:00.200 who are vulnerable

01:28:01.140 people without 0.96

01:28:02.280 sacrificing the

01:28:03.520 rights of women. 0.99

01:28:05.480 But we can't do

01:28:06.660 that unless we

01:28:07.480 forthrightly confront

01:28:09.200 the problems that

01:28:10.720 are associated with

01:28:11.660 an open, with a

01:28:12.840 more open

01:28:13.280 immigration policy.

01:28:15.000 And that is the

01:28:16.100 first step.

01:28:17.120 That is the first

01:28:17.840 step.

01:28:18.200 And even maybe

01:28:18.960 even a step

01:28:21.000 ahead of that is

01:28:22.440 we have to have

01:28:23.420 these conversations.

01:28:24.220 So let's stop

01:28:26.840 putting these

01:28:27.660 issues, putting a

01:28:29.160 taboo over these

01:28:30.040 issues.

01:28:31.860 We have to see the

01:28:33.280 way these things are

01:28:34.080 linked.

01:28:34.900 If you want to do

01:28:35.900 that, like stop

01:28:36.840 using, you and I

01:28:38.000 started our

01:28:38.520 conversation with

01:28:39.280 statistics and

01:28:40.280 stop using

01:28:41.500 statistics as a

01:28:43.400 tool of

01:28:44.100 obfuscation, as a

01:28:45.540 tool of lying about

01:28:46.600 things that are

01:28:47.280 going on.

01:28:47.840 let's use

01:28:48.840 statistics and

01:28:49.820 data actually to

01:28:51.480 open, you know, to

01:28:53.340 solve these

01:28:54.240 problems.

01:28:54.780 And we can't if

01:28:55.820 we keep on

01:28:57.520 declaring.

01:29:00.500 We demonize one

01:29:02.060 another and we

01:29:02.680 moralize towards

01:29:03.720 one another.

01:29:05.420 And then we

01:29:07.140 don't know where

01:29:07.660 to go from

01:29:08.320 there.

01:29:08.560 So then we

01:29:08.980 start compromising

01:29:10.000 free speech.

01:29:10.920 And so then you

01:29:11.400 can't have these

01:29:12.180 conversations.

01:29:12.920 So maybe the

01:29:13.800 first step is I

01:29:14.900 wish this book

01:29:15.580 would only contribute

01:29:16.600 to the opening

01:29:17.820 of that

01:29:18.320 conversation.

01:29:19.500 It's not just

01:29:20.160 about women.

01:29:21.020 It's really, it's

01:29:21.980 about this, how

01:29:25.000 to co-exist with

01:29:26.840 one another in

01:29:27.760 places in Europe,

01:29:29.140 in America, on

01:29:30.100 the globe.

01:29:33.100 I've had the

01:29:34.120 distinct pleasure,

01:29:36.800 complicated pleasure

01:29:37.720 of speaking with

01:29:38.500 Ayaan Hirsi Ali

01:29:39.360 today.

01:29:40.040 And she's the 0.92

01:29:40.620 author of multiple

01:29:41.500 books, including

01:29:42.200 this one, their

01:29:43.060 newest, published

01:29:43.860 in 2021, called

01:29:45.640 Prey, Immigration

01:29:47.720 Islam and the

01:29:48.540 Erosion of 0.60

01:29:49.140 Women's Rights. 0.96

01:29:50.680 Ayaan is

01:29:51.200 launching a

01:29:51.960 podcast Monday,

01:29:54.560 which is

01:29:54.960 February 8th,

01:29:58.380 Monday, February

01:29:59.720 8th, and as

01:30:00.880 well as launching

01:30:01.540 her new website,

01:30:02.460 which is

01:30:02.840 AyaanHirsiAli.com.

01:30:05.900 I'd encourage

01:30:06.820 anybody who wants

01:30:07.940 to know more

01:30:08.480 about Ayaan's

01:30:09.400 thinking to

01:30:12.020 visit her website

01:30:13.280 and to attend

01:30:14.040 to her podcast,

01:30:14.680 which I'm sure

01:30:15.380 will be very

01:30:15.940 interesting and

01:30:17.920 no doubt

01:30:19.160 perhaps more

01:30:22.060 interesting than

01:30:22.860 people will be

01:30:24.040 able to tolerate.

01:30:25.240 We'll see.

01:30:26.960 Thank you very

01:30:27.700 much for talking

01:30:28.580 with me today,

01:30:29.940 Ayaan.

01:30:30.240 It was a pleasure

01:30:30.800 to see you again.

01:30:32.880 Thank you,

01:30:33.560 Jordan.

01:30:33.900 Thank you so

01:30:34.500 very much.

01:30:35.060 And we could

01:30:35.480 have continued

01:30:35.960 this for a

01:30:37.420 good long time,

01:30:38.680 but had to go

01:30:40.260 to the kids.

01:30:41.160 So thank you so

01:30:42.380 much for having

01:30:42.960 me.

01:30:43.980 Bye-bye.

01:30:45.380 Bye-bye.

01:30:46.000 Thank you.

01:30:46.540 Bye-bye.

01:30:46.800 Bye-bye.

The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast - February 21, 2021

155. The Erosion of Women's Rights？｜ Ayaan Hirsi Ali

Episode Stats

Summary

Transcript

The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast - February 21, 2021

155. The Erosion of Women's Rights？ ｜ Ayaan Hirsi Ali

Episode Stats

Summary

Transcript

155. The Erosion of Women's Rights？｜ Ayaan Hirsi Ali