The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast - 157. Beyond Order - the Illustrator

00:00:00.960 Hey everyone, real quick before you skip, I want to talk to you about something serious and important.

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00:00:53.820 Welcome to the Jordan B. Peterson podcast.

00:00:56.180 I'm Mikayla.

00:00:57.400 This episode was recorded on January 29th, 2021,

00:01:00.800 and is with the illustrator of Dad's newest book, Beyond Order, Juliette Fogra.

00:01:07.460 Dad has an illustration per rule in this new book that Juliette did, and they are stunning.

00:01:13.500 You can get them in poster form at his Teespring shop on his website at jordanbpeterson.com under shop,

00:01:19.520 if you're interested.

00:01:21.360 He has a poster with all 12 rules on it with the illustrations.

00:01:24.940 That's pretty cool.

00:01:25.580 Juliette Fogra's worked as an art director in New York City for 13 years and is branching out on her own now.

00:01:33.440 They discuss the stunning art she created for Beyond Order, her life story, artistic composition,

00:01:39.240 her muse when creating, Photoshop, fine art, and more.

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00:03:44.440 Enjoy this episode.

00:03:46.480 I have the great pleasure today of meeting for the first time, oddly enough, the illustrator

00:04:11.860 of my new book, Beyond Order, which is out March 2nd.

00:04:16.360 This is Yulia Fogra, also known as Juliet.

00:04:20.500 We're going to use Yulia.

00:04:22.300 Thank you.

00:04:22.920 It's very nice to meet you.

00:04:24.360 Very nice to meet you.

00:04:25.380 I thought it would be interesting for us to talk today about the illustrations that you

00:04:29.620 produced and also how that came about.

00:04:32.180 So I'll start with that.

00:04:34.700 My previous book, 12 Rules For Life, was illustrated by Ethan Van Siver.

00:04:39.160 And I liked his illustrations a lot.

00:04:41.320 I thought they were very successful.

00:04:43.100 But he had other opportunities that he was pursuing.

00:04:45.400 And so I was obliged to find another illustrator for Beyond Order.

00:04:52.100 And I decided with my team, my daughter and my family members, actually mostly in discussion

00:04:58.700 to run a contest online and solicit drawings.

00:05:05.120 I thought that would be entertaining and interesting and perhaps allow someone an opportunity that they

00:05:14.180 might not otherwise have obtained.

00:05:16.120 And so we received hundreds and perhaps even thousands of illustrations, of proposed illustrations.

00:05:25.480 Do you remember, Yulia, did I ask for the illustration of a rule or more than one rule?

00:05:32.240 Was that how the contest ran?

00:05:34.140 No, I know exactly what you asked.

00:05:36.220 You asked for one rule, first rule, and you asked for line drawing.

00:05:41.740 Ah, so it was a first rule line drawing, right?

00:05:45.480 Because we needed something that would work well in black and white.

00:05:48.460 It's a tricky thing to produce an illustration for a book because whoever's doing the illustration

00:05:55.120 has to know enough about printing to ensure that the illustration prints well, can be reproduced

00:06:01.180 well in print format.

00:06:02.240 And so, anyways, we looked through a lot of artists' illustrations and Yulia's stood out.

00:06:16.080 And I think that the contest was, in consequence, very successful.

00:06:19.680 I'm very pleased with the illustrations.

00:06:22.240 I think they have an interesting fairy tale quality to them, a kind of classic fairy tale

00:06:29.420 quality to them, a Victorian quality as well, which seemed appropriate to the content of

00:06:35.860 the material.

00:06:37.280 And so, anyways, we received Yulia's entries and then worked with her over, well, the contest

00:06:46.320 was run in, it was March of 2020?

00:06:50.840 March, yeah.

00:06:52.000 March.

00:06:52.600 A year ago.

00:06:54.040 Yes.

00:06:54.960 Yes.

00:06:55.440 And a very tumultuous year, which is part of the reason we haven't met the pandemic lockdown,

00:07:02.400 of course, has kiboshed any plans we might have had to get together.

00:07:07.660 You're based in New York, correct?

00:07:10.500 Yes.

00:07:10.840 And so, under normal circumstances, I'm going to New York fairly frequently, but, of course,

00:07:16.380 haven't been there for, it's got to be at least two years now.

00:07:19.520 So, what, let's, I'd like to find out some things about you.

00:07:24.340 So, the first is, tell us a little bit about yourself.

00:07:29.620 Where are you from?

00:07:30.560 And I'd like to know a little bit about your life.

00:07:37.540 Okay.

00:07:38.200 So, I was born in Riga, Latvia.

00:07:40.840 One of the trio.

00:07:42.400 There is Latvia, Estonia, and Lithuania, Baltic countries.

00:07:47.580 We were the mix of Poland and Germany, I would say.

00:07:52.320 And the old city was built by German.

00:07:56.860 But I lived in the area where I was the only Jew.

00:07:59.920 I'm Jewish.

00:08:01.940 I was the only Jew, and the rest of the people were all Russians.

00:08:05.440 There were no Latvians at all.

00:08:06.740 And you would see in movies, nine-story buildings built like dominoes.

00:08:14.740 It's all dominoes.

00:08:17.040 Concrete.

00:08:18.080 I hated it.

00:08:19.420 I saw a lot of that in Moscow.

00:08:21.700 It's terrible.

00:08:22.540 An endless vista of 20-floor-high apartments stretching as far as the eye can see in every direction.

00:08:31.380 Yeah.

00:08:31.520 Yes, a very unwelcoming architectural manifestation, I would say.

00:08:41.020 Cold and harsh.

00:08:42.940 Exactly.

00:08:44.120 And I was young enough to go outside of this neighborhood.

00:08:47.960 If I were 15 or 16, I would be able to start going outside and going alone into the old city, into cafes, which we had.

00:08:55.880 But I couldn't.

00:08:58.000 So by the day, let's go back.

00:09:02.840 So I had a talent for music.

00:09:04.520 My mom was a music teacher.

00:09:06.740 And I had a perfect pitch, luckily.

00:09:09.860 So they tested me, and they said, I'm perfect for conservatory.

00:09:16.500 I was seven.

00:09:17.700 They put me in a music conservatory.

00:09:19.240 Obviously, no normal kid would choose something like that for their life.

00:09:24.420 It was vicious.

00:09:26.380 It was Latvian training combined with Russian training, what you would see in chess clubs.

00:09:34.180 It was vicious.

00:09:35.520 So tell us about that.

00:09:36.800 So was that a residential school, or were you still living at home?

00:09:40.320 I was still living at home.

00:09:41.520 You're still living at home.

00:09:43.060 And how many hours a day would you spend at school and practicing?

00:09:46.400 So when I was seven, I went to a regular school and to a music school.

00:09:52.660 It's two different places.

00:09:54.860 I had to travel by tramvay.

00:09:57.560 Tramvay is something you see in San Francisco.

00:10:01.960 Oh, a tram.

00:10:03.500 Yep.

00:10:04.260 Yep.

00:10:04.960 Street car.

00:10:07.040 Three or four stops, not far away.

00:10:09.460 I had twice in a week of a class, two-hour class, and I had to practice every day at home

00:10:18.900 for at least an hour.

00:10:20.820 And that was my life.

00:10:23.180 I also drew, which was a side project.

00:10:29.260 It wasn't taken seriously by anyone, by me.

00:10:32.500 Uh-huh.

00:10:34.120 Because your music was taken seriously by you and your parents and the conservatory?

00:10:38.740 And my parents and everybody around me and kids in school, and I was known as a musician.

00:10:44.320 And did you take any pleasure in that?

00:10:46.400 Was music good for you or what?

00:10:48.000 No.

00:10:48.620 No.

00:10:48.960 How come?

00:10:50.200 Horrible.

00:10:51.200 It was, I was good at it.

00:10:52.660 But this, it's, uh, I blame the teachers and I blame the school because they would prepare

00:10:57.640 kids for orchestras.

00:10:59.380 They would just process talented kids for orchestras.

00:11:03.100 There was no love of music involved at all.

00:11:06.980 It's something you saw in Jane Eyre.

00:11:11.160 The teachers of Jane Eyre.

00:11:15.540 Intimidating place.

00:11:17.100 That was a music school.

00:11:19.240 And we were playing classical music only for seven years.

00:11:22.420 It was a classical training.

00:11:24.200 And they found it leaving somebody else's tragedy.

00:11:29.780 It was very sad.

00:11:30.820 The music was sad and was not for me.

00:11:34.680 So by the end of third year, I said, I can't do it anymore.

00:11:38.120 I had a crash.

00:11:39.040 I was on the floor crying.

00:11:40.820 And my parents tried to convince me.

00:11:43.740 Nothing worked.

00:11:44.680 So my father said, he took the liberty of saying, he'll get me a puppy when I finish

00:11:49.380 the school.

00:11:49.800 And I finished the school.

00:11:53.320 It was 1991.

00:11:55.580 And so how many more years did you go after that event?

00:11:58.340 After that, four years.

00:11:59.660 So you worked four years for your puppy?

00:12:01.940 Yeah.

00:12:02.300 Did you get him?

00:12:03.680 No.

00:12:04.500 Oh, ouch.

00:12:06.260 Because I finished it in 1991 when Soviet collapsed.

00:12:10.160 And we had to leave the country.

00:12:11.240 Huh, right.

00:12:12.980 So geopolitical restructuring got in the way of your pet.

00:12:19.360 Yeah.

00:12:20.040 And we left to Israel.

00:12:22.220 So in 1991, your family left to Israel.

00:12:24.440 And why did you choose to leave?

00:12:26.280 Why did your family choose to leave in 1991?

00:12:29.700 Soviet collapse.

00:12:31.440 We left in 1992.

00:12:33.220 The collapse was in 1990.

00:12:36.340 Right.

00:12:37.140 It took us time.

00:12:38.180 So we lived through bad times in Latvia.

00:12:42.140 Bad times in terms of food or anything, really.

00:12:47.520 There was no food.

00:12:49.080 Yeah.

00:12:49.300 And people don't know a lot about that post-Soviet period in the West.

00:12:53.080 You know, I have my son-in-law is Russian.

00:12:56.080 I think he's about your age.

00:12:58.560 Yeah.

00:12:58.840 He has some pretty harrowing stories of early 1990s Moscow,

00:13:04.180 being afraid to go to school,

00:13:05.860 not knowing if he was going to come home alive.

00:13:08.300 Yeah.

00:13:09.260 Rough.

00:13:10.300 It was a very rough period, lawless and chaotic period by his account.

00:13:14.380 And for you, you said food shortages?

00:13:18.020 Yeah.

00:13:18.440 My father stored potatoes and tuna for a year.

00:13:23.080 That's what all we ate.

00:13:24.460 Because there was nothing on the shelves.

00:13:26.700 Nothing.

00:13:27.680 And how did you come across the tuna and the potatoes?

00:13:31.740 You have to ask my father.

00:13:33.520 Ah.

00:13:34.600 Okay.

00:13:35.140 I see.

00:13:35.520 I don't know.

00:13:36.300 I wasn't involved in his decisions.

00:13:38.260 And he stored it in a very cool place on the ground.

00:13:41.860 In someone's garage, I think.

00:13:47.060 And bread was by tickets.

00:13:48.860 I remember staying in line for an hour to get a piece of bread.

00:13:53.880 We had tickets.

00:13:54.580 You can only get one bread for three days, I think.

00:13:58.840 I could be mistaken.

00:14:00.160 Only one piece of bread.

00:14:01.560 There were two choices of bread in Russia throughout Soviet Union.

00:14:06.000 White bread and right bread.

00:14:08.020 Nothing else.

00:14:09.200 So I was standing for an hour.

00:14:10.600 And people were spitting and angry.

00:14:13.760 And I was a little girl.

00:14:15.840 But I got this bread and I'm running home.

00:14:18.860 And my mom is cutting the bread.

00:14:20.860 And it's green.

00:14:21.560 Completely green inside.

00:14:24.560 So that was my life until 14.

00:14:26.940 Then we left to Israel.

00:14:28.420 And did you encounter...

00:14:30.380 You said that you were the only Jewish family.

00:14:33.060 Or you said you were the only Jewish family in the entire area?

00:14:37.460 Yeah, in the neighborhood.

00:14:39.320 And did you encounter prejudice because of that?

00:14:41.960 Or was that an invisible...

00:14:43.380 Of course.

00:14:44.380 I was bullied to hell.

00:14:47.320 And so was that a part of the decision to go specifically to Israel?

00:14:51.280 Yes.

00:14:52.180 And we had no other choices.

00:14:55.880 Germany was close to us.

00:14:57.480 America was close to us.

00:14:58.660 That was the only choice.

00:14:59.620 We didn't know anything about Israel.

00:15:02.260 It seemed like a nice place from where I was.

00:15:04.820 I was very happy.

00:15:06.300 Because I felt captive.

00:15:09.980 For 14 years.

00:15:11.300 I was trying to escape this place in any case.

00:15:14.100 In any price.

00:15:15.640 How large was your family?

00:15:17.280 You have siblings?

00:15:18.820 So most of my family was killed during the Holocaust.

00:15:23.960 40 people.

00:15:25.100 They just brutally killed everybody.

00:15:26.680 And a very small portion left.

00:15:29.260 They survived.

00:15:30.680 And that's why I'm here.

00:15:31.700 I have one brother.

00:15:34.080 And so your mom and dad and you and your brother lived in this apartment building in Riga.

00:15:39.100 Yes.

00:15:39.600 How big was the apartment that you and your brother and parents lived in?

00:15:43.160 What they consider in America, it's one bedroom apartment.

00:15:46.420 It's one room for us.

00:15:48.380 And a living room for my parents.

00:15:50.800 All right.

00:15:51.240 So you moved to Israel in 92?

00:15:54.400 92.

00:15:54.880 And how old were you then?

00:15:57.160 14.

00:15:58.060 14.

00:15:58.720 And how long did your family spend in Israel?

00:16:01.700 My family is still living there.

00:16:03.160 Your family is still there.

00:16:04.540 Yes.

00:16:04.740 So was that an improvement?

00:16:08.580 No.

00:16:09.800 Not for me.

00:16:10.980 For everybody else.

00:16:12.100 Everything seemed to be improving for everybody else but me.

00:16:15.060 I couldn't find my place.

00:16:16.260 I was always not at home until I came to New York.

00:16:20.980 And things have worked out for you in New York.

00:16:24.740 Absolutely.

00:16:25.400 Well, that's good.

00:16:26.040 So it's obvious that you're capable of finding a place.

00:16:28.880 It just took a while.

00:16:30.180 So what happened to you in Israel?

00:16:31.760 Why do you think you had difficulty there?

00:16:33.700 First of all, we came with no language.

00:16:36.500 Second of all, I came from Europe to Middle East.

00:16:41.480 So it's a matter of mentality.

00:16:46.420 I just couldn't get it.

00:16:48.140 I just couldn't be part of it.

00:16:50.320 And we lived in a very poor area.

00:16:52.900 Very poor area.

00:16:53.920 What did your parents do in Israel?

00:16:58.340 How did they keep, how did they make ends meet?

00:17:02.640 So my dad became, he was an engineer and he started working in some factory.

00:17:08.680 My mom was working at nights in the bakery.

00:17:11.980 It was tough.

00:17:13.580 So they could find employment, but it was, it was.

00:17:16.520 It was tough.

00:17:17.220 Yeah.

00:17:17.360 I started working when I was 15.

00:17:20.380 I've collected oranges.

00:17:21.660 So you moved, how old were you when you arrived in Israel?

00:17:26.460 I was 14, almost 15.

00:17:29.740 Right.

00:17:30.220 So that tends to be a relatively tumultuous time in a girl's life anyways.

00:17:35.540 Those teenage years can, and you didn't have, you couldn't speak the, you couldn't speak Hebrew.

00:17:40.600 I couldn't speak for two years.

00:17:42.600 For two years.

00:17:43.720 Yep.

00:17:44.840 Others could speak three months.

00:17:47.840 Just being, just listening, just being on the street, they could speak.

00:17:51.660 It's not how my brain works.

00:17:53.440 I had to collect it for two years and I couldn't get out anything of my mouth.

00:17:58.260 And that's the problem I have with languages in general.

00:18:02.000 Hmm.

00:18:03.180 Yeah.

00:18:03.640 Well, that definitely sounds difficult.

00:18:05.720 So you, when did you move to New York?

00:18:07.820 How old were you when you moved to New York?

00:18:09.540 So in Israel, I stayed for nine years.

00:18:12.180 Uh, I've been in the army, which is a separate subject to talk about.

00:18:19.660 Then I finished two years of art school, which was three school, uh, three years.

00:18:25.840 But I only finished two.

00:18:28.240 And then I was offered by the head of our department.

00:18:31.660 I was offered the job in her private studio.

00:18:35.220 So I just drop out.

00:18:39.020 I see.

00:18:39.560 So, and that was, you went to art school and that was on the basis of your prowess in, in

00:18:44.560 visual art?

00:18:46.360 Yeah, it was my dad's idea.

00:18:48.320 And you had, had you stopped playing the piano by this time?

00:18:51.580 Oh, I didn't play piano from the moment I arrived to Israel.

00:18:55.740 And have you played it since?

00:18:58.680 I've started to play in New York.

00:19:00.560 That was the first thing I bought.

00:19:02.960 Oh, and have you been able to take any pleasure in that?

00:19:06.200 Absolutely.

00:19:07.080 Well, that's great.

00:19:07.920 So that's a happy ending to that story.

00:19:09.840 I mean, it's very rough becoming, it can be very rough learning any, uh, sophisticated skill

00:19:16.280 because the learning period is often not particularly rewarding.

00:19:20.760 There's so much you have to get by rote.

00:19:23.300 I mean, when kids learn to read, they have to be able to read phrases and perhaps even

00:19:28.560 sentences at something approximating a glance before they take much pleasure in the reading.

00:19:34.140 And so there's this initial period of rather painful apprenticeship that's not necessarily,

00:19:41.140 that isn't necessarily accompanied by intrinsic pleasure and meaning.

00:19:45.060 But if you can get through that, if you're lucky, then once you have the discipline, you

00:19:50.160 can enjoy the skill.

00:19:52.000 And I'm glad to hear that that worked out for you.

00:19:54.620 Are you a good pianist?

00:19:56.300 I'm good.

00:19:58.080 I just stopped playing classical music.

00:20:00.620 I was not meant to, meant to be.

00:20:03.640 And what music do you play?

00:20:04.960 And what music do you enjoy?

00:20:06.960 Rock.

00:20:08.200 Pop.

00:20:09.340 Jazz.

00:20:10.280 Uh-huh.

00:20:10.840 Anything but.

00:20:12.380 Right.

00:20:12.680 So you have a modern sensibility musically.

00:20:16.360 Yep.

00:20:17.080 What about bands?

00:20:18.240 Who do you like?

00:20:19.760 Oh, and there is a reason for that.

00:20:22.100 Uh, my dad bought me a recorder for cassettes, two cassette player.

00:20:27.720 That was.

00:20:30.180 I was 11 or 12 max.

00:20:33.640 And two cassettes came along with it.

00:20:38.660 One was Queen and another Billy Joel.

00:20:42.380 Which Queen album?

00:20:44.360 Uh, I wish I remembered.

00:20:47.080 Was it A Night at the Opera?

00:20:49.900 Did it have Bohemian Rhapsody on it?

00:20:52.100 I think so, yeah.

00:20:53.080 That's A Night at the Opera.

00:20:54.360 That's definitely their best album.

00:20:56.360 Yeah.

00:20:56.800 And that's the first thing I, I, uh, listened to.

00:21:00.140 Mm-hmm.

00:21:00.420 And I remember just sleeping next to it.

00:21:02.780 My, my, my, my player was here.

00:21:05.080 I couldn't, I couldn't do anything else.

00:21:06.800 I was possessed.

00:21:07.900 I was obsessed.

00:21:09.000 Completely obsessed.

00:21:10.160 I've never heard or seen anything as beautiful.

00:21:15.000 There was no beauty in my life.

00:21:17.200 It was all monochrome.

00:21:18.680 Everything was black and white in this area.

00:21:21.620 Mm-hmm.

00:21:21.940 Yeah, it was quite different.

00:21:24.820 Physically, there was no color.

00:21:26.300 Even the clothes were all black or dark brown or dark blue.

00:21:30.160 What are winters like in Riga?

00:21:32.480 Cold.

00:21:33.820 Minus 20 Celsius is the coldest.

00:21:38.120 Uh-huh.

00:21:38.900 And we had to go to school.

00:21:40.080 I remember that.

00:21:42.640 So you moved alone to New York?

00:21:45.640 Okay, so let's go back.

00:21:46.680 You said that you, you went to art school on the basis of your talent as a visual artist,

00:21:51.460 despite the fact that that wasn't something that was, that you really had concentrated

00:21:55.500 on with regards to training.

00:21:57.300 You were trained as a child, as a musician, not as a visual artist.

00:22:01.920 Sure.

00:22:02.180 How did you pick up that talent?

00:22:05.060 I was the best in the class.

00:22:09.340 How did I pick it up?

00:22:10.740 First of all, I didn't want to go to school of graphic arts because of computer training.

00:22:15.860 I said, I'm never going to touch this thing.

00:22:18.680 Technology, I can't.

00:22:20.960 I'll never acquire something like that.

00:22:22.920 That's too much of a skill and technology is not for me.

00:22:26.600 So they said, first year, you'll only have to draw by hand.

00:22:31.180 Everything we're going to do, we're going to do by hand.

00:22:33.440 No computer involved.

00:22:34.600 And they bought me.

00:22:35.520 They bought me completely with that.

00:22:37.240 So first year, everything we've done was drawing.

00:22:42.140 And you had to submit a portfolio, I presume, as a condition of admittance.

00:22:48.220 Yes.

00:22:48.500 And you'd been drawing on your own.

00:22:50.740 Did your parents support that or were they opposed to it or was it neutral?

00:22:54.500 My parents supported everything.

00:22:55.620 They supported it.

00:22:56.660 Yeah.

00:22:57.500 Okay.

00:22:58.060 Oh, and they didn't see that as something that took away from your studies?

00:23:00.840 They were the hipsters of the area, considered the hipsters.

00:23:05.060 They were the free spirits.

00:23:07.780 The art was supported.

00:23:11.420 And how much time did you spend drawing when you were a kid?

00:23:14.700 A lot.

00:23:15.820 I was not just drawing.

00:23:17.340 I was making mosaics.

00:23:19.440 Out of?

00:23:21.020 Mosaics.

00:23:21.700 Out of what?

00:23:22.480 Out of wooden, colorful, different shaped.

00:23:25.380 And what you had to do is just imagine what you want to build and just go for it.

00:23:33.580 From the center, outside.

00:23:37.260 And the size I built it, it was the size of almost a small rug.

00:23:41.960 It was that big of a bag.

00:23:43.960 And I would spend two, three hours.

00:23:45.640 It was a blessing.

00:23:48.480 So then you went to art school and you spent the first year drawing by hand.

00:23:52.760 And that was okay.

00:23:53.600 You were afraid of technology.

00:23:55.380 Or loath to use it.

00:23:56.960 So that was, what happened in the second year?

00:24:03.340 I just grasped it.

00:24:05.620 I just went along with it.

00:24:08.280 And so you learned to use.

00:24:09.460 Completely fine.

00:24:10.240 You became fluent with the use of computers then?

00:24:13.820 Better than everybody else.

00:24:16.020 So what do you think made you believe to begin with that you weren't able to do it?

00:24:20.140 Or that you weren't suited for it?

00:24:22.100 I'm just afraid of technology.

00:24:23.540 Well, you should be.

00:24:26.600 Everybody should be afraid of technology.

00:24:29.160 But it's still probably better to know how to use it.

00:24:32.300 I think you should be less afraid of it, perhaps, if you know how to use it.

00:24:35.520 It's very powerful.

00:24:37.300 I mean, technology has disrupted my life in a manner that is absolutely not only inconceivable,

00:24:42.880 but perhaps irrecoverable.

00:24:45.680 But anyways, you know, it's brought many benefits as well.

00:24:50.200 But it's so powerful.

00:24:51.440 You're taking a tiger by the tail or perhaps something much bigger than a tiger.

00:24:57.020 You're playing dragons.

00:24:57.960 Yeah, yeah.

00:24:59.380 Or maybe they're eating you.

00:25:00.720 It depends.

00:25:02.340 So, all right.

00:25:03.360 So you learned.

00:25:05.700 You became a sophisticated technology user your second year of art school.

00:25:10.480 So, what advantages and disadvantages were there to bringing computer technology to your artistic endeavors?

00:25:19.960 Photoshop is a unique thing.

00:25:22.880 I would never be able to layer up layers the way I do or imagine things the way I imagined before I start.

00:25:30.400 I don't think of graphics in terms of non-Photoshop anymore.

00:25:43.300 It's an unbelievably powerful program.

00:25:46.100 It's like a factory, Photoshop.

00:25:48.040 There's no limit to what you can do with an image.

00:25:52.180 It's actually, it's kind of a terrifying program in some sense because it can, if you're the least bit obsessive,

00:25:58.240 it can pull you in and trap you forever because there's no limit to the number of variations you can produce.

00:26:04.280 And, I mean, I'm a rather amateur Photoshop user.

00:26:07.040 I've used it a fair bit, but I certainly haven't explored all of its capabilities.

00:26:10.620 It's, you could spend a lifetime doing that.

00:26:14.220 Absolutely.

00:26:15.240 I hope doing that.

00:26:16.620 That's my.

00:26:17.380 That's your lifetime.

00:26:19.260 That's my goal.

00:26:20.600 So, okay.

00:26:21.240 So, you finished two years of art school and then you were offered a position by the director of the program.

00:26:27.960 Yes.

00:26:28.500 And that was still in Israel.

00:26:30.240 Yeah.

00:26:30.840 And what did, she or he?

00:26:33.460 That was a she.

00:26:35.120 What did she have you doing?

00:26:36.400 And why, and why did, why, and did, what did she think about your decision to stop going to art school to take your job?

00:26:43.040 She noticed me.

00:26:44.860 She noticed me and she came to a graduation and we had a final project.

00:26:50.160 She was there the whole time.

00:26:51.840 And after the final project, she said, can I speak to you?

00:26:54.700 And I thought I'm in trouble.

00:26:58.180 And she offered me because, first of all, I spoke Russian and she had a client.

00:27:03.520 And second of all, I was good.

00:27:05.660 That's what she told me.

00:27:07.000 I had no idea.

00:27:07.920 I didn't believe anything she said.

00:27:09.500 I was completely living outside of myself at that point.

00:27:15.280 What do you mean living outside of yourself?

00:27:17.340 It's hard to describe.

00:27:20.140 I couldn't fit into Israel.

00:27:22.100 Right.

00:27:22.600 I felt too large for that place.

00:27:25.500 And nobody knew what I'm speaking about.

00:27:27.480 So, how long did you work for her?

00:27:32.340 For four months.

00:27:37.220 Backing up, when I was 15, I met a boy on the street.

00:27:42.240 It was two weeks after I arrived.

00:27:44.600 And that boy is my husband right now.

00:27:47.200 So, he left to New York in 2000.

00:27:51.420 In 2000.

00:27:52.500 And I followed him.

00:27:55.140 I see.

00:27:56.100 And so, was that what stopped you from continuing the job?

00:27:59.480 Yes.

00:28:00.220 Uh-huh.

00:28:00.820 That's exactly what stopped me.

00:28:02.520 His departure was devastating.

00:28:10.800 When he departed, had you two planned to meet up again in New York?

00:28:14.400 Was that the eventual plan?

00:28:15.380 No, that was the end.

00:28:16.680 He left.

00:28:17.720 And what changed?

00:28:18.900 He stayed here for three months.

00:28:23.180 He looked.

00:28:23.960 He called me and he said, I'm seeing people.

00:28:27.240 And I don't see them.

00:28:28.880 They aren't transparent.

00:28:29.880 I'm just looking through them.

00:28:31.320 I don't see any of them.

00:28:33.380 You need to come.

00:28:34.660 Because I see you.

00:28:36.500 Hmm.

00:28:38.740 And so, you uprooted yourself from Israel.

00:28:41.220 How old were you?

00:28:42.860 I was 23.

00:28:44.760 Again, no English.

00:28:46.460 No language.

00:28:47.260 All I had is ABC.

00:28:49.680 Again, the same story.

00:28:51.060 Just this time I came alone.

00:28:54.580 But you liked New York.

00:28:56.700 Not right away.

00:28:58.240 Not right away.

00:29:03.100 It was tough.

00:29:04.100 It was tough in the beginning.

00:29:05.240 And we had a first child a year later.

00:29:07.620 I would describe my life as 40 years in the desert.

00:29:12.500 That's exactly what it was.

00:29:14.140 40, even more.

00:29:15.180 42.

00:29:17.560 How old are you now?

00:29:19.540 43.

00:29:20.620 Ah.

00:29:21.460 So that's not many years out of the desert.

00:29:24.040 No, it's just the beginning.

00:29:27.260 All right.

00:29:27.880 So you're in New York and you're learning to speak English.

00:29:30.260 You're newly married.

00:29:31.600 You have a new child.

00:29:33.000 Yes.

00:29:33.820 And again, two to three years, it took me to start speaking.

00:29:38.320 And I wouldn't just, the words would scatter around my head.

00:29:42.300 I would just not be able to find them.

00:29:44.000 They're always hiding behind.

00:29:45.540 There is a field.

00:29:46.720 And I know they're there.

00:29:48.120 But they're hiding behind the rocks.

00:29:50.400 It's very complicated.

00:29:51.680 It's very hard for me to speak.

00:29:54.720 Because words, I see words.

00:29:57.820 I don't hear words.

00:29:59.720 For me, words are pictures.

00:30:01.560 And I memorize them.

00:30:03.300 And when they are in the sentence, I'm being able to reread.

00:30:07.280 That's why it was so good for me that we corresponded.

00:30:11.720 Because I could reread and I could understand exactly what you mean.

00:30:15.220 So did you work when you arrived in New York?

00:30:23.220 Did you work as an artist?

00:30:24.880 Right away.

00:30:26.200 You did?

00:30:26.740 You found?

00:30:27.700 Yeah.

00:30:28.220 How did you find work?

00:30:29.520 It's hard to find work as an artist.

00:30:31.020 So how did you manage that?

00:30:32.320 I thought I'm going to clean the restrooms.

00:30:33.980 I was walking around looking for orthodox schools or schools just to clean the bathrooms.

00:30:41.800 That's what I thought I'm going to do.

00:30:44.860 Two weeks passed and I went to a photo developing studio.

00:30:50.160 We had some photographs.

00:30:51.460 It was the winter.

00:30:52.240 It was beautiful.

00:30:53.780 I came there and the guy before me wanted to make some retouchment on his old pictures.

00:31:01.220 And the guy in front of me at the desk said, yes, we do that.

00:31:05.160 But it's going to take us a month.

00:31:07.220 Come back to us in a month.

00:31:09.220 So I'm getting to the desk and I'm saying, I can do it.

00:31:11.360 And one hour, maybe less.

00:31:14.180 He said, I don't believe you.

00:31:16.800 Let me try.

00:31:18.260 He sat me down and he had the drawer with probably 10 pictures that was supposed to take him a month to retouch.

00:31:27.400 And I've done it in one day.

00:31:30.500 He said, I have somebody in mind.

00:31:32.540 It was a Jewish guy.

00:31:33.640 Obviously, they had somebody in mind.

00:31:35.480 In New Jersey, which is far.

00:31:37.580 That's how I got my job.

00:31:38.780 And I stayed there for 13 years.

00:31:41.800 And so tell me about this place.

00:31:43.640 It was a photo studio.

00:31:45.560 No, he called his friend, obviously.

00:31:48.700 And he had friends in graphics.

00:31:51.340 I see.

00:31:51.920 More than that.

00:31:55.220 There was a catalog company that was creating catalogs for mostly jewelry, but not only.

00:32:01.500 Mostly jewelry, which is the hardest thing because retouching of jewelry is the hardest thing.

00:32:06.840 And we had everything.

00:32:07.820 We had a printing facility under our roof in the same building.

00:32:14.000 We had our photographers.

00:32:17.740 We had me.

00:32:18.960 So everything was going on.

00:32:20.080 I was on top of everything.

00:32:22.120 He made me an art director.

00:32:24.480 And I was an art designer and art director.

00:32:26.920 And the company closed up in 2016.

00:32:32.700 It was five years ago.

00:32:34.740 And you managed that.

00:32:36.460 Was your English functional by that point?

00:32:40.140 I wouldn't say so.

00:32:42.680 No.

00:32:44.640 We didn't need to speak a lot.

00:32:47.040 He learned to trust me.

00:32:49.540 Within a year, he just knew that everything I do is going to be lovable.

00:32:54.460 And he knew I'm always right.

00:32:56.900 He just figured it out.

00:32:59.280 Just do that.

00:33:00.200 Just do this.

00:33:01.180 I worked three days a week, which was amazing.

00:33:04.780 I got my salary for a week.

00:33:07.020 I had two boys by that time.

00:33:10.160 And I got sick.

00:33:12.560 Oh, what happened?

00:33:15.440 Well, I'm not sure.

00:33:17.680 I'm still not sure what happened.

00:33:19.720 I was always sick.

00:33:20.560 I relapsed.

00:33:24.720 And I was destined to stay home.

00:33:28.300 So I stayed home.

00:33:30.160 And there was one choice.

00:33:31.540 Either I should suffer from pain.

00:33:33.580 Or I should do something while I'm suffering from pain.

00:33:37.060 And that was the only thing that made me disappear.

00:33:41.500 I forget about the reality.

00:33:43.620 That's the only thing.

00:33:44.680 My Photoshop.

00:33:45.700 And I started doing graphics for no reason.

00:33:49.080 Okay, so when did this happen?

00:33:52.240 So you got too ill to work?

00:33:54.560 Is that the case?

00:33:55.340 You got too ill to work and so you were staying at home?

00:33:57.200 When did that happen?

00:33:59.280 Five years ago.

00:34:00.520 Five years ago.

00:34:01.680 I'm skipping.

00:34:02.520 I'm skipping.

00:34:03.240 That's okay.

00:34:04.000 We should move towards the discussion of the drawings anyways.

00:34:07.140 But we're getting close to the present day.

00:34:10.500 So you became ill about five years ago?

00:34:13.620 Yeah.

00:34:14.260 And did you have to stop?

00:34:15.420 Very ill.

00:34:15.620 No, I was ill, but I became very ill.

00:34:19.020 I didn't think I will survive it.

00:34:21.960 And I don't want to press you any more than is comfortable for you.

00:34:27.020 I couldn't work.

00:34:27.240 I had no energy at all.

00:34:28.780 Uh-huh.

00:34:29.540 Zero.

00:34:30.380 And I had two kids.

00:34:31.700 And you talked about pain as well.

00:34:36.820 Yeah.

00:34:37.160 The pain was tremendous.

00:34:38.660 And then I got also, on top of it, I got fibromyalgia that they couldn't treat.

00:34:43.860 And the pain with fibromyalgia that you can't treat it with medicine.

00:34:49.800 Anyway, so I thought, what would I do with my life?

00:34:53.420 I'm 40.

00:34:54.140 I was almost 40.

00:34:55.200 Okay, I'll paint with oil paintings on canvas.

00:35:01.860 Out of the bloom.

00:35:04.000 And it worked.

00:35:05.560 And every painting was better than another.

00:35:09.340 And I was keeping it a secret.

00:35:10.760 And my husband said, you can't keep it a secret.

00:35:12.580 People must see it.

00:35:14.660 I said, seeing what?

00:35:15.880 Why?

00:35:16.660 I couldn't grasp the idea of somebody else's seeing my work.

00:35:19.820 I've done this for two years.

00:35:23.600 And eventually, I had a show in Chelsea, New York.

00:35:30.540 In the gallery.

00:35:32.640 It didn't go so well.

00:35:34.280 And I knew that I have to switch.

00:35:36.780 It was too hard physically.

00:35:39.260 It was too hard for me to paint.

00:35:41.800 Too hard to paint?

00:35:43.200 To paint, yeah.

00:35:44.580 So sitting in front of the desk was an option for them.

00:35:48.740 That's how I started doing graphics.

00:35:51.740 So I'm at Agora Galleries page.

00:35:54.660 Yes.

00:35:55.280 Which will link into this.

00:35:57.540 And there's a number of images there.

00:35:59.320 An orange, a tangerine, my mistake.

00:36:04.160 A painting called Accepted.

00:36:06.520 These are oil on canvas.

00:36:08.440 Yep.

00:36:09.620 And I haven't seen them since before.

00:36:13.580 They're as good as I would expect,

00:36:16.940 given your illustrations.

00:36:20.000 And do you use any digital technology

00:36:23.280 when you're doing your oil paintings?

00:36:25.520 No, not at all.

00:36:27.020 So that's...

00:36:28.580 Tell me a little bit about how you go about it.

00:36:30.920 They're beautiful.

00:36:33.540 I was just trying to copy exactly what I see in a photograph.

00:36:37.860 Those three cups, if you see only...

00:36:39.940 Were there cups?

00:36:41.800 You would see it on my website.

00:36:43.660 Cups is my favorite.

00:36:44.780 Three cups coffee.

00:36:47.100 And where can I find that?

00:36:48.920 Okay.

00:36:49.460 It's julietfogra.me.

00:36:53.160 Julietfogra.me.

00:36:57.000 And me.

00:36:59.620 Got it.

00:37:00.320 Oh, yes.

00:37:00.720 You have the illustrations for Beyond Order up there.

00:37:05.640 Yeah.

00:37:06.460 And I should go to portraits?

00:37:08.740 Or fine art?

00:37:09.600 You should go to fine art.

00:37:11.560 Oh, wow.

00:37:13.620 And which one do you like the best?

00:37:16.000 Three cups of...

00:37:16.860 Cups.

00:37:18.300 Oh, yes.

00:37:20.740 There are close-ups, so you can see actually up close.

00:37:23.440 They're enormous, those paintings.

00:37:26.500 48 by 30.

00:37:27.580 Mm-hmm.

00:37:28.580 Mm-hmm.

00:37:29.680 And these are done from photographs?

00:37:32.360 Yep.

00:37:33.640 Wow.

00:37:34.040 I made something similar to this one where you use squares.

00:37:44.940 So those are sort of like mosaics.

00:37:48.460 Oh, yeah.

00:37:49.980 I redid a famous oil painting by...

00:37:54.480 Now I can't remember his name, unfortunately.

00:37:57.480 It's a reclining nude and pixelated it in large cubes

00:38:01.780 and then cut it out of styrofoam, foam core, and layered it.

00:38:06.100 Like my Maps of Meaning painting.

00:38:08.320 I did about 10 of those when I was in my mid-20s,

00:38:11.880 and I haven't done any since.

00:38:14.120 And these three at the bottom are very reminiscent of that.

00:38:17.820 Yeah, they're really...

00:38:19.420 They're very intense.

00:38:22.300 Have you been successful as a fine artist?

00:38:25.800 No.

00:38:25.880 Have you been able to make a living?

00:38:27.320 No.

00:38:28.100 No.

00:38:28.500 Well, it's very difficult to make a living as a fine artist.

00:38:31.700 I was able to spend everything I had in my savings.

00:38:35.200 Yes.

00:38:35.560 Uh-huh.

00:38:36.720 Yeah.

00:38:37.500 Yeah.

00:38:37.800 And yes, people asked for...

00:38:41.400 They call Gisli prints.

00:38:44.160 Yes.

00:38:44.620 Print on canvas in special color, not just regular prints.

00:38:48.660 Yeah, I've done some money, but not for living.

00:38:52.080 Maybe for a living.

00:38:52.660 No.

00:38:53.220 No.

00:38:53.640 And have you been successful at selling your original images?

00:38:57.540 No, not at all.

00:38:59.260 And any idea why?

00:39:03.100 I mean, apart from the general impossibility of doing that, right,

00:39:06.400 it's a very finite market,

00:39:07.960 and it's extraordinarily difficult for a fine artist to make a living.

00:39:11.640 It happens almost never.

00:39:13.660 So it's not surprising.

00:39:16.180 No.

00:39:16.400 But the images are of very high quality, in my opinion.

00:39:23.700 Thank you.

00:39:24.860 That doesn't necessitate success.

00:39:26.920 I mean, part of the problem of being an artist is that you have to compete

00:39:29.480 with the production of all artists, living and dead.

00:39:32.940 Yes.

00:39:33.000 And it takes a long time to build a reputation.

00:39:36.740 And you have to know how to...

00:39:38.420 You have to know the gallery system.

00:39:40.080 And you have to be able to market yourself.

00:39:42.240 And you have to be able to sell yourself.

00:39:44.060 Or someone else has to do it.

00:39:46.160 Exactly.

00:39:47.080 And I was not ready for that.

00:39:48.580 I didn't like this combination of words, selling yourself.

00:39:52.200 I knew I had to sell myself, and I didn't want to do that.

00:39:55.380 So I just...

00:39:55.720 Well, you know, this is a good place for this discussion, I would say.

00:40:01.020 It might be useful for people who are listening who are artistically inclined.

00:40:04.880 And it's not the right thing.

00:40:08.000 It's not the right way to construe it as selling yourself.

00:40:11.700 What you have to understand is that there's no possible way of being successful

00:40:15.800 if people don't know who you are or what you've done.

00:40:19.240 Because very few people buy art.

00:40:20.940 And so you have to communicate with a lot of people before you'll get any interest

00:40:25.120 that could be turned into revenue.

00:40:27.480 And so you have to communicate.

00:40:29.140 And obviously, you have to communicate because you have to have a market.

00:40:31.660 And it's just as important to know how to communicate, or perhaps even more important,

00:40:36.340 than it is to know how to produce things that are beautiful and of value.

00:40:40.340 And if you think about it as communication, it's less off-putting than if you think about it

00:40:45.060 as selling yourself.

00:40:46.860 It's still a tremendous problem.

00:40:48.940 I mean, no matter what you produce, regardless of its value, a huge part of the problem you'll

00:40:55.260 face trying to monetize it is communicating its existence.

00:40:59.040 So, and artists are rarely, not only rarely trained in doing that, but are also frequently

00:41:07.280 somewhat temperamentally disinclined to do it.

00:41:12.580 Absolutely.

00:41:14.540 So, that's a warning to all of you out there who are artistically inclined.

00:41:19.940 If you want to make a living, especially independently, you had better be prepared to learn how to communicate

00:41:26.040 with everything at your disposal and put as much effort into that, if you can, as into your art itself.

00:41:34.020 That's, again, that's not necessary if all you want to do is produce art.

00:41:38.460 But if you want to produce art and live, it's necessary.

00:41:42.700 I've listened to your lectures, yes.

00:41:45.060 Yeah, yeah.

00:41:45.740 Well, it's hard-won knowledge.

00:41:48.160 I've produced items for sale, you know, prior to my books, say, and I thought they were quite

00:41:54.640 useful, these programs I've developed with my colleagues to help people write a life plan

00:42:01.020 that's self-authoring and to assess their personality.

00:42:04.820 But it wasn't until I was able to communicate with a very large number of people that those

00:42:15.980 products became remotely successful, despite their quality, let's say.

00:42:22.220 Yeah.

00:42:22.740 Yeah, yeah.

00:42:24.000 So, can I ask you, just out of curiosity, and don't feel inclined to answer this, how many

00:42:28.560 of your paintings have you sold?

00:42:31.840 One.

00:42:32.180 One.

00:42:34.820 I'm sorry, I've got another two.

00:42:41.320 Three.

00:42:42.320 Three?

00:42:43.140 Yeah.

00:42:44.220 There was three.

00:42:45.080 I was commissioned to do two.

00:42:47.600 And does Agora Gallery still represent you?

00:42:51.120 Do you have galleries that represent you?

00:42:52.620 No, no, no, absolutely not.

00:42:54.380 For one month only.

00:42:56.580 For one month only, that was the show?

00:42:58.800 Yeah.

00:42:59.640 And people, but people can contact you through your website?

00:43:03.240 Yes.

00:43:03.520 Every piece of information about me is on my website.

00:43:08.320 Are the prices of your artworks on your website?

00:43:11.320 No.

00:43:13.140 Why not?

00:43:15.140 I'm not saying they should be.

00:43:16.620 I'm curious.

00:43:17.580 I just think they shouldn't.

00:43:19.320 I think I should communicate with people first.

00:43:22.320 That's part of communication.

00:43:23.600 I don't have a set price.

00:43:27.340 It depends.

00:43:32.060 All right.

00:43:32.620 So let's talk about this contest.

00:43:35.500 And so why don't you tell me the story?

00:43:37.620 Because I don't know the story.

00:43:39.300 And so I'd really like to hear it.

00:43:40.800 Yeah, I don't know the story on your end.

00:43:44.060 I didn't just know the story on my end.

00:43:45.880 I have no idea why I was chosen.

00:43:47.880 I never asked this question.

00:43:49.180 I never wanted to know.

00:43:51.240 Today I'll ask this question.

00:43:52.080 I was chosen because in my opinion, and also the opinion of the people I had helping me make the decisions,

00:43:58.040 your drawings were, they were clearly the best of all the drawings that we had, all the pieces of art.

00:44:03.860 They're not exactly drawings.

00:44:05.300 You can describe more what they are.

00:44:08.720 They were better than any of the others that we received.

00:44:12.720 And I would say markedly so.

00:44:16.620 So that's the simple explanation.

00:44:19.680 We felt very fortunate that the contest had produced such a positive result.

00:44:26.060 So with lockdown and with my state of health, it was quite difficult to find another illustrator

00:44:35.320 to even know how to go about that.

00:44:37.400 Oh, my God.

00:44:37.820 So the contest came up as an idea.

00:44:40.500 And I don't know.

00:44:42.620 Not a bad idea.

00:44:44.100 Well, we'll see, won't we?

00:44:46.240 But I'm very pleased with the way that it's turned out.

00:44:50.240 So, okay.

00:44:50.980 So how did you remember how you found out about the contest?

00:44:54.880 I remember everything.

00:44:56.760 Yes.

00:44:57.260 I had a friend, Lawrence Fox.

00:44:59.640 He lives in the UK.

00:45:01.420 He's an actor and musician.

00:45:03.740 And right now he organized the party.

00:45:06.820 He's in politics now.

00:45:08.200 So he sent me the link of your Twitter.

00:45:12.000 It was evening.

00:45:13.760 And I was sitting with my husband, drinking tea in the kitchen.

00:45:17.580 And I was sitting like that.

00:45:19.580 And I never sit like that.

00:45:21.080 And I was ready to rip up my hair because I really wanted it.

00:45:25.520 And I told him, there is no way I can't make lined art.

00:45:30.340 He said, do your thing.

00:45:32.920 I said, no, you don't understand.

00:45:34.560 It's Jordan Peterson.

00:45:36.220 He knows exactly what he wants.

00:45:37.860 When he says lined art, it has to be produced in lines.

00:45:42.340 And I just can't do that.

00:45:44.520 You have to do your thing.

00:45:46.180 Just do your thing.

00:45:47.000 Some people just don't know until they see it.

00:45:51.820 So my teacup was standing on those.

00:45:58.300 Can you see?

00:45:59.760 Yes.

00:46:00.420 Put it a little closer.

00:46:04.300 Yes.

00:46:05.140 These are German drawings.

00:46:06.500 And my mom bought them in Hamburg.

00:46:10.240 And I was looking at the sky.

00:46:11.880 And I was looking at the lights.

00:46:13.680 And I said, this is my thing.

00:46:15.460 He said, do it.

00:46:17.040 Go right now.

00:46:18.920 So you saw the contest announcement on Twitter.

00:46:21.880 Yeah.

00:46:22.360 See, I don't even remember how we announced it.

00:46:24.380 But obviously, we used Twitter.

00:46:26.320 I kept the screenshot.

00:46:28.980 I know the words.

00:46:30.440 I don't remember much of this at all.

00:46:33.780 Yeah.

00:46:34.160 And I remember why I wanted it so bad.

00:46:38.720 I wanted it because I wanted to make you smile.

00:46:44.300 I wanted you.

00:46:45.400 Now, why did you care about that?

00:46:47.060 So first of all, you knew about me?

00:46:49.940 Yes.

00:46:50.340 Before that.

00:46:51.140 How did you know?

00:46:51.940 I knew about you before that.

00:46:53.220 For a long time.

00:46:54.720 But I never followed you.

00:46:56.140 Because I'm not following everybody.

00:46:58.080 It's just a habit.

00:46:59.780 So how did you know?

00:47:01.040 How did you come across my work?

00:47:02.620 Lawrence Fox.

00:47:04.160 He sent me the link.

00:47:06.380 On the same day.

00:47:08.660 And that day, I was thinking.

00:47:10.680 Sorry to interrupt you.

00:47:12.780 But you said that when he sent you the link, did you already know about my work?

00:47:19.360 Yes.

00:47:20.200 How did you follow?

00:47:21.440 And so what?

00:47:22.060 The videos?

00:47:22.940 Or had you read my previous book?

00:47:24.860 Lectures.

00:47:25.460 No lectures.

00:47:26.100 I was listening to your art lectures.

00:47:28.340 I see.

00:47:28.880 Okay.

00:47:29.300 You were listening to my lectures on art.

00:47:31.220 Okay.

00:47:31.600 You gave a lecture in Toronto Museum, I think?

00:47:36.620 Yes.

00:47:37.540 That's the one I love.

00:47:39.980 I've listened to it three times, I think.

00:47:41.900 I think that was in Ottawa.

00:47:48.360 At the National Gallery.

00:47:50.080 Yes.

00:47:50.260 At the National Gallery.

00:47:51.920 And I did one on the meaning of music at a museum in Toronto.

00:47:55.060 But that's not the one you're referring to.

00:47:57.040 No.

00:47:57.400 I wish I could find it.

00:47:59.760 I need to find it.

00:48:00.920 I need the links as well.

00:48:03.800 So I went ahead.

00:48:05.300 I went downstairs.

00:48:07.480 And I knew I can't do that in drawings.

00:48:10.700 So what I did at the time, I would do photomontages.

00:48:15.160 Black and white photomontage.

00:48:17.720 Meaning I would make a list of keywords.

00:48:25.480 Something I need for that.

00:48:27.800 And I knew I need a sky.

00:48:29.400 I knew I need a guy.

00:48:31.360 And a special character.

00:48:32.940 Not just any guy.

00:48:34.140 I wanted him to be proud.

00:48:43.140 What's the word?

00:48:44.180 A slightly arrogant.

00:48:45.940 This was the first rule.

00:48:47.740 The first rule.

00:48:48.460 Do not carelessly denigrate social institutions or creative achievement.

00:48:52.440 And I sent out suggestions, right?

00:48:55.480 The suggestion was a tarot card.

00:48:59.520 Yeah.

00:48:59.880 You sent one tarot card.

00:49:01.480 From the writer deck.

00:49:02.720 I believe it was the writer deck.

00:49:04.320 So I would create that.

00:49:07.020 And then I would just start searching the web.

00:49:09.820 And that could be a photo.

00:49:13.440 That could be part of the painting.

00:49:16.080 I would just collect in very chaotic way.

00:49:19.680 Very neurotic and chaotic for three, four hours.

00:49:23.140 I'll just pick up the stuff.

00:49:26.500 Everything I see.

00:49:27.420 Everything I see useful.

00:49:28.860 Everything I see fit.

00:49:29.860 I would collect.

00:49:30.500 Then I see a plain page that is scary.

00:49:35.720 And I knew that I'm going to see 12.

00:49:39.380 Not one.

00:49:40.320 Usually I see one.

00:49:42.000 I would have to deal with 12.

00:49:44.620 And I knew I can't do it.

00:49:45.840 But usually I'll drop myself into the well.

00:49:48.820 I'll just drop myself into something impossible.

00:49:51.280 And see if I can survive.

00:49:53.320 That's what I do.

00:49:53.920 So I photomontage this out of pieces.

00:50:01.760 Just like the mosaic.

00:50:02.840 That's why I spoke of making a mosaic.

00:50:07.040 From center out.

00:50:08.640 I would find the heart of the image.

00:50:11.220 And I'll work towards the edges.

00:50:14.920 Then I'll have to flawlessly integrate them into each other.

00:50:19.200 There are probably hundreds.

00:50:21.000 Yeah, there is a hundred pieces here.

00:50:24.500 From all sorts of sources.

00:50:26.400 And why did you decide to use a photomontage rather than draw?

00:50:30.720 My thing.

00:50:32.420 It's my thing.

00:50:33.440 He told me just do your thing.

00:50:35.040 I see.

00:50:35.820 That's how you see things.

00:50:38.580 Okay, so bring the image up again.

00:50:41.600 Let me make some comments about it.

00:50:44.080 I can tell you.

00:50:44.980 Okay, so I like the melody of the main figure.

00:50:53.540 There's something musical about it.

00:50:55.700 And about the way that I guess it's the lines of the standing figure and the dog and the butterfly.

00:51:04.820 It fits harmoniously together.

00:51:07.280 And you got it right to have him looking up into the sky like he's preoccupied.

00:51:13.000 And even though he's hypothetically about to step off this cliff, the way that you produce this is similar to the way that I write.

00:51:24.380 Because I collect all sorts of things and then I array them and then I edit them and edit them and edit them and edit them until I can't edit them anymore and then I'm done.

00:51:35.080 And so when I saw this, the first thing I believe I thought was that it was beautiful and that was a necessary criteria for my satisfaction.

00:51:52.100 And it was, there's nothing about your drawings that are foolish or trivial.

00:52:01.820 And so, and I like the classic element.

00:52:05.720 And so when I saw this, while I was very happy, I thought, well, that'll be a beautiful addition to the book.

00:52:14.220 So you sent the fool.

00:52:16.720 You're speaking my language, first of all.

00:52:18.700 Every word to word.

00:52:20.180 That's exactly how I feel.

00:52:21.420 I had to create shape-wise something harmonious, perfectly harmonious.

00:52:29.620 It has to be balanced out perfectly.

00:52:32.180 Otherwise, it's junk.

00:52:34.600 And when I...

00:52:35.080 That's very difficult to do.

00:52:36.180 You see people often when they make a portrait, even very talented people can't array the multiple, if there's multiple figures, they can't array the multiple figures together so that they look either like they're dancing, let's say.

00:52:50.240 Like they're related to each other properly, they look like separate figures sort of stuck on a page.

00:52:55.440 And certainly that isn't the case with your illustration of the fool.

00:52:58.440 And often people would ask me, who I'm inspired by.

00:53:08.260 No one.

00:53:10.100 They would not believe me.

00:53:11.360 It's definitely look like that or it's definitely look like door.

00:53:15.520 Or it's definitely look like this guy.

00:53:17.600 And the guy is definitely look like my brother.

00:53:20.300 It's none of those things.

00:53:22.100 I never get inspired by visuals.

00:53:24.900 I get inspired by music.

00:53:27.000 Aha.

00:53:27.440 So here we come a full circle because I always knew that I have to choose either music or drawing.

00:53:34.320 It's two things.

00:53:35.260 And I knew I have to choose because when you're little, grown-ups would say, what do you want to be when you grow up?

00:53:44.160 Which implies you have to choose.

00:53:46.580 And I didn't want to choose.

00:53:47.880 Well, it's so interesting that you think of your drawings musically, given that that's how they struck me.

00:53:57.260 And that's how they struck you.

00:53:59.740 The word to word.

00:54:01.120 So what I do is I put my music and I work only to music, nothing else.

00:54:06.520 I have no ideas.

00:54:07.820 And I'm trying to turn my head off.

00:54:10.080 I'm not thinking.

00:54:12.500 During this chaotic peaking, I have to analyze, like, good, bad, bad, bad.

00:54:18.280 Right, right.

00:54:19.520 But then when it's all done, it's pretty much like what actors do.

00:54:26.700 Master actors with method acting.

00:54:29.720 They just collected all this information.

00:54:32.280 They know everything about they dressed up and they just being.

00:54:36.740 And I can't control this.

00:54:38.000 When I attach those things, I'm just the tool.

00:54:41.740 I can't think.

00:54:43.180 Once I started thinking, I'm ruined it.

00:54:45.740 Right.

00:54:46.120 Well, yeah.

00:54:48.740 Thinking is perhaps reserved for critical judgment rather than creative production.

00:54:55.740 Yeah.

00:54:56.080 You have to open yourself up to a kind of attention.

00:54:59.460 And it's interesting that, you know, you say you collected a very large number of items to work with.

00:55:05.940 It's initial overproduction followed by selection.

00:55:09.480 And that's another thing useful for people who are listening to this or watching it might want to know.

00:55:15.500 Like, when I write, I write way more than I keep.

00:55:19.600 And then I can select.

00:55:20.960 And so I don't constrain myself to begin with.

00:55:23.080 I can write down whatever I want, knowing full well that I'm going to modify it or throw much of it away.

00:55:27.760 So I sent, like, I had images in mind, photographs, paintings, that captured the theme of what I wanted to portray in the illustration for the chapter.

00:55:40.320 And so as we progressed through the 12, I had sent an image or two or three, perhaps, I don't exactly remember, that sort of hinted at what I was looking for.

00:55:52.260 And so then you worked off that initial suggestion.

00:55:56.160 But you produced something that was in that vein, but not by any means the same thing.

00:56:05.680 So let's go through, let's go, let's show everybody the illustrations one by one and talk about each of them.

00:56:11.500 So we saw number one, the fool.

00:56:15.080 Yeah, I had much more, obviously.

00:56:17.300 I had much more.

00:56:18.200 I had mountains.

00:56:19.100 I had extra stuff.

00:56:21.020 I always minimize it.

00:56:23.300 Not necessary, out.

00:56:24.840 Not necessary, out.

00:56:25.740 I simplified it completely.

00:56:28.100 Then I went to number five.

00:56:36.200 Rule five.

00:56:38.280 That's do not do what you hate.

00:56:41.200 And so that's Lucifer plummeting from heaven.

00:56:48.020 Yeah.

00:56:49.100 That's the one.

00:56:50.760 And tell me about that.

00:56:52.560 That's my favorite rule.

00:56:56.340 That's your favorite rule.

00:56:58.080 You mean the favorite illustration or the rule itself?

00:57:00.660 Now, you hadn't read the chapters, I don't believe.

00:57:03.820 I did.

00:57:04.920 You did.

00:57:05.620 Okay, okay.

00:57:06.380 So I sent them to you?

00:57:08.500 Yes.

00:57:09.120 Okay, well, that was wise.

00:57:10.380 That was appropriate.

00:57:12.020 Yeah, that was wise.

00:57:13.040 I asked for it.

00:57:13.880 But then I stopped myself from reading on most of them.

00:57:19.100 I didn't want to translate them into words and vice versa.

00:57:25.340 Okay, but you had read the chapter for rule five.

00:57:28.800 Yeah, you gave me very clear three paragraphs on each rule.

00:57:34.320 And that was more than enough.

00:57:35.440 And you showed pictures.

00:57:36.680 I have it here.

00:57:37.440 We can attach it.

00:57:38.600 And we went back and forth on this image quite a lot.

00:57:41.960 On this one?

00:57:43.560 No.

00:57:43.980 The only change here was that the hand was too long.

00:57:50.060 Right, arm length.

00:57:51.240 Well, that happens to stick in my mind.

00:57:53.100 So that may not be an accurate representation of what happened.

00:57:58.080 So tell me about this image.

00:57:59.520 Because again, it has that lovely harmony.

00:58:01.380 You know, the character looks like he's, the figure looks like he's dancing.

00:58:06.380 It's beautiful.

00:58:08.140 Yeah.

00:58:08.580 So I was inspired by a ballet dancer.

00:58:13.340 And I didn't want it to look too much like this because they're similar in description.

00:58:23.540 Right.

00:58:24.120 I didn't want him to be all the way down on the ground.

00:58:26.800 I wanted him to be in the middle.

00:58:29.000 And it was very challenging.

00:58:30.600 Very challenging.

00:58:33.120 Because the emotion is so contradictory to me.

00:58:35.560 And I was trying to catch it in one frame.

00:58:38.020 And the emotion was, he's still falling.

00:58:40.140 He's not there yet.

00:58:41.000 Okay.

00:58:43.340 It's quite interesting.

00:58:47.480 He's desperate and angry and hopeful.

00:58:53.820 It's a great expression.

00:58:59.480 And he's looking for help.

00:59:02.340 Yeah.

00:59:02.700 Well, and I believe you can see all of those things in the expression.

00:59:05.800 There's a pleading in it.

00:59:08.360 Yeah.

00:59:08.880 So once I get the face, I will change the face of a person, obviously.

00:59:13.340 Uh, unrecognizably for others.

00:59:17.600 And I'll work on a nose, obviously.

00:59:20.240 And I'll work on the eyes.

00:59:21.780 And then I'll change the emotion.

00:59:23.420 I'll actually work on, on the flaps of the skin to make him more desperate.

00:59:31.740 The darker the area on top of his eye, the more desperate he is.

00:59:36.740 There are ways to work on emotion, to change it slightly.

00:59:41.240 And I'm changing it only on one half of the face.

00:59:44.780 That's my trick.

00:59:46.220 The other half of the face would describe a different emotion.

00:59:49.600 Hmm.

00:59:51.940 And so how did you discover that technique?

00:59:54.640 Okay.

00:59:55.220 Uh, actually there is a filmmaker, first filmmaker.

01:00:00.620 His name is George Melies.

01:00:02.520 He was French.

01:00:03.760 The one who created moon.

01:00:06.100 What was the name?

01:00:07.940 I have it written down.

01:00:10.120 He created.

01:00:10.880 What's his name?

01:00:15.160 He created a trip to the moon.

01:00:16.760 Oh yes.

01:00:17.280 A very early filmmaker.

01:00:19.820 He was the first.

01:00:20.940 Mm-hmm.

01:00:21.200 He was the first.

01:00:22.040 Very famous film.

01:00:23.980 Yeah.

01:00:24.600 So, um, he has been depicted in Hugo Cabret by Martin Scorsese film.

01:00:31.080 Right.

01:00:32.020 Yeah.

01:00:32.400 So there I saw how he created the magic.

01:00:35.320 He wanted some, a man disappeared.

01:00:38.560 So he would take the canister of the film, take the actual film, get to that point, cut

01:00:46.120 out a few frames where the person disappears and glue it together.

01:00:52.620 So, and then I noticed the same idea in music when I'm listening, let's say to Sting, he

01:00:59.740 will do exactly the same thing.

01:01:00.860 He will take the emotion that comes to the point of, um, I forgot the word, the musical

01:01:12.680 term.

01:01:13.420 He will cut the other half.

01:01:15.540 He'll take a different emotion, cut over the beginning, glue them together.

01:01:19.660 And that creates a completely different emotion.

01:01:22.600 And in music, nobody's using it unless you're a genius.

01:01:26.560 And why the reason is because the church would forbid it in the very early stages, because

01:01:33.720 those chords would create doubt, doubt and uncertainty.

01:01:38.340 So those chords sound beautiful and slightly bitter and sophisticated.

01:01:47.400 It, you'll never hear it in music, especially classical music.

01:01:50.480 So I've started to think, how can I recreate it visually?

01:01:54.420 Same thing.

01:01:56.560 So you showed rule 11.

01:01:59.640 So let's jump to that one, unless you have a preference.

01:02:02.880 11.

01:02:03.780 Yep.

01:02:07.860 That's do not allow yourself to become resentful, deceitful or arrogant.

01:02:12.980 And that's Satan in hell.

01:02:15.500 And that's modeled after an illustration from Paradise Lost by Gustav Doré, if I remember

01:02:22.100 correctly.

01:02:22.940 So why don't you tell us about that illustration?

01:02:25.420 Yeah.

01:02:26.560 Again, there is not much to tell.

01:02:33.460 I was trying to recreate one of those.

01:02:37.380 And I was trying to be simplistic about it.

01:02:40.360 Obviously showing a big distress, devastation.

01:02:45.020 That's how I showed devastation.

01:02:46.560 And yes, and that's devastation wrought by becoming resentful, deceitful and arrogant.

01:02:53.460 Yeah.

01:02:54.460 So, and the point of the chapter is that even if you have reasons for all of those three things, especially resentment, because people often have extraordinarily difficult lives, going down that path is likely to make everything worse.

01:03:10.640 And that's a non-trivial problem, because if you're suffering dreadfully, then it's very difficult to resist the temptation of resentment.

01:03:20.680 So, it's something I've certainly struggled with, that rule in rule 12, be grateful in spite of your suffering.

01:03:28.580 Those are rules that I've had a very hard time abiding by.

01:03:32.640 It took me the longest.

01:03:33.180 What's that?

01:03:34.600 That took me the longest, this rule.

01:03:37.200 I've created three or four different versions, and I worked and worked and worked, and I was not satisfied.

01:03:43.800 This?

01:03:44.540 This.

01:03:45.360 Yeah.

01:03:45.700 All right, let's go to, let's go to rule, do you have an order you prefer, or should we go to rule two?

01:03:53.240 Rule two.

01:03:57.620 Okay.

01:03:59.440 Rule two, I've done the last.

01:04:01.820 The best for last.

01:04:06.280 Imagine who you could be, and then aim single-mindedly at that.

01:04:09.160 That was a tricky one to have you do, because the chapter is an analysis of an old alchemical drawing.

01:04:15.700 And so, you had to be constrained in the recreation of that, because it had to duplicate all the elements of the original drawing, or my chapter wouldn't have made any sense.

01:04:28.000 Which made it easier for me.

01:04:29.980 Being constrained is easy.

01:04:32.780 I knew exactly what's supposed to be there.

01:04:36.840 Yes, well, people with an artistic temperament, or maybe people with a wannabe artistic temperament, often rail against constraint.

01:04:44.620 But it's, you want a lot of constraint, generally speaking.

01:04:50.120 Otherwise, you drown in choice.

01:04:52.820 And that's a big problem.

01:04:55.720 So, this chapter describes this picture as a story that proceeds from the bottom up.

01:05:02.060 You can take it in at a glance, but it also proceeds from the bottom up.

01:05:05.320 And it's the emergence of personality, well-developed personality, from nothing, in some sense, or from potential.

01:05:13.900 That's another way of thinking about it.

01:05:15.820 And it's an unbelievably sophisticated image, which is why it takes me a chapter to unwrap some of it.

01:05:23.060 So, what did you, what was the experience for you of working on this image?

01:05:32.820 I figured, I was looking for one of the paintings to make inverted, as opposed to, as opposed to black figures on white background, which is usually the case.

01:05:50.740 I've done it inverted, and I loved it.

01:05:53.320 I loved how it's black, as opposed to every original I saw on the internet.

01:05:58.500 But, that makes it very magical.

01:06:06.540 There are...

01:06:07.300 The dragon there.

01:06:09.000 So, the way the picture works, just as a hint, is that, well, the bottom sphere, in some sense, represents that which attracts your interest.

01:06:18.460 And then that can transform itself into that which you're afraid of.

01:06:23.060 So, you might have an ambition, for example, to pursue something you're interested in.

01:06:27.000 But then that turns into a dragon, because you're afraid of pursuing it.

01:06:30.600 But if you do confront it, then that turns into you.

01:06:33.620 That helps you develop your personality.

01:06:36.620 That's that image in a thumbnail.

01:06:40.840 It's much more to it than that, of course.

01:06:45.240 I love it.

01:06:47.900 Rule four.

01:06:50.320 Oh, that's rule.

01:06:51.480 Sorry, that was rule two, yes.

01:06:53.200 Imagine who you could be and then aim single-mindedly at that.

01:06:56.000 But this is rule three, is the one we need.

01:06:59.340 Rule three is Michaela's favorite.

01:07:02.400 Do not hide unwanted things in the fog.

01:07:05.100 Right?

01:07:05.560 And this is the opposite of hiding unwanted things in the fog.

01:07:09.100 This is confronting them.

01:07:10.940 And that's a variant of St. George and the Dragon, which is an unbelievably pervasive mythological and artistic motif.

01:07:19.460 And perhaps, also, the oldest story that we have, the oldest stories that we know, are variants of St. George and the Dragon.

01:07:30.760 So, tell me about this one.

01:07:33.480 That was difficult, because there were too many items that shouldn't look separated, although the woman should be separated.

01:07:46.300 So, what I've done is using a fabric, fabric of hers and fabric of his, flying into the same direction, and that's the connecting point.

01:08:00.640 Castles should be separated, so I wasn't worried about the castle.

01:08:05.160 But the dark sky and the dragon work in 45 degrees, yeah?

01:08:15.240 Right, absolutely.

01:08:16.280 So, the mass of the dragon and the mass of the sky are balanced against the figure of the rider.

01:08:21.900 And it gives it a symmetry across the, from the top left corner to the bottom right corner.

01:08:29.660 Yeah, absolutely.

01:08:30.140 Draw a line there.

01:08:30.900 It's symmetrical across that axis.

01:08:32.500 And the castle had to be there, and the dragon had to be there, and the woman had to be there.

01:08:37.860 All those elements are crucial.

01:08:39.960 And so, this is what you do when you don't hide things in the fog.

01:08:44.040 You confront them, and you free something of value as a consequence.

01:08:48.240 That's, that's a, that's the most, one of the most magnificent discoveries of human beings, that human beings have ever made.

01:08:56.340 And images like this are an attempt to make that conscious, to serve, to, to, they're, they're, they're, they're a guide to a particular kind of action in the world.

01:09:07.160 That's the voluntary confrontation with things you don't understand and that you are afraid of.

01:09:11.960 And the promise that something of extreme value will emerge as a consequence of that, even though it looks dire initially, and can be.

01:09:22.340 I mean, this is no joke, because if you go off to fight dragons, there's always the possibility that you'll die, or worse.

01:09:29.020 And that's a real possibility.

01:09:30.400 It's, it's not something that can be hand-waved away with any amount of psychological nonsense, let's say.

01:09:39.380 These are real battles, not merely psychological battles.

01:09:43.340 Rule four, please stop me to, if there's anything else you want to say about any of these images.

01:09:48.780 I, I really want to hear what you have to say.

01:09:51.100 Rule four, notice that opportunity lurks where responsibility has been abdicated.

01:09:59.120 Atlas.

01:10:00.400 And there's three women in the background.

01:10:06.880 Why?

01:10:08.740 That was, uh, part of your suggestion.

01:10:12.480 So I have to say why.

01:10:14.500 You have to say why.

01:10:17.560 Well, I would say that to the degree that men are properly shouldering their load, then women can rejoice and play in the background.

01:10:27.460 Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

01:10:28.700 Which is not to say that all women do is rejoice and play.

01:10:33.060 No one lives like that.

01:10:34.800 But it's very difficult to rejoice and play when responsibility remains unshouldered.

01:10:43.400 So, and it is the case that each of us lift the world up onto our shoulders in one way or another or fail to do so.

01:10:54.240 So, um, it's a terrible burden, but it's a meaningful one.

01:10:59.440 Rule five, we did rule five.

01:11:05.520 Sorry.

01:11:05.940 Go ahead.

01:11:06.440 Uh, I've made it theatrical.

01:11:09.180 If you see on top, it's like a part of the scene that makes sense more.

01:11:14.680 Uh, yeah, this is part of the scene because you can see the fabric on top.

01:11:19.160 Right.

01:11:20.300 Here, like, and they're dancing on the background.

01:11:25.040 So it's like a stage setting.

01:11:27.940 Something like that.

01:11:28.920 That was my idea.

01:11:30.100 Mm-hmm.

01:11:30.440 Yeah, well, what we play out on the stage are representations of things that we should play out in our life.

01:11:38.660 Or sometimes they're opposite because, you know, if you see a villain on the stage and he ends badly, then the lesson is to not be a villain.

01:11:49.700 But that's still imitation.

01:11:52.240 It's just imitation of the reverse.

01:11:54.940 That's rule six, because we did rule five, abandoned ideology, abandoned ideology.

01:12:01.500 And that's a, that's your version of a Soviet era propaganda poster.

01:12:07.240 Yep.

01:12:10.380 Now, you must have seen many of those when you were in Riga.

01:12:13.900 No, I haven't seen any of those because I was born in 1977.

01:12:20.200 My mistake.

01:12:21.700 So tell us about this image.

01:12:24.940 Not much to tell us.

01:12:26.200 I wanted her to look mean, cruel, bitter, just like the women I saw in Riga in 1977.

01:12:35.080 The women looked like that.

01:12:36.600 Russian women.

01:12:38.620 Why?

01:12:40.180 Why they were bitter.

01:12:42.980 I guess we're thinking that it was, had something to do with ideology.

01:12:47.820 Uh-huh.

01:12:48.160 And it's terrible grip.

01:12:49.660 The terrible grip that ideology had on, well, certainly the people in the Soviet Union, but also in the entire world.

01:12:58.220 It was unbelievably catastrophic.

01:13:00.340 A whole century of catastrophe, of terrible catastrophe for hundreds of millions of people.

01:13:09.340 And we still haven't learned our lesson.

01:13:11.080 And people can object that you can't help but think ideologically, and I don't believe that to be the case.

01:13:19.220 No, I'm the product of that.

01:13:20.740 And I can tell you that for me, it's a given that things can change within one night.

01:13:25.340 It's a given because it happened.

01:13:27.640 People in America cannot imagine such thing because things gradually went better and better and slightly better.

01:13:34.100 Maybe a bit worse, but better and better.

01:13:36.320 They cannot imagine because they never lived it.

01:13:39.400 And things were taken away in one night.

01:13:41.960 Everything changed.

01:13:42.700 Well, people got a bit of a taste of that this year, I would say, even so.

01:13:49.040 And hopefully it won't go beyond the taste that we've had.

01:13:54.660 So, I guess you follow an ideology when you have the overweening desire to explain more of the world than you can explain.

01:14:07.700 It's very complicated.

01:14:08.820 Your representation of the world becomes something you proudly display to indicate your moral superiority.

01:14:18.160 And you'll sacrifice people to that.

01:14:22.440 Rule seven.

01:14:24.580 Work as hard as you possibly can on at least one thing and see what happens.

01:14:29.420 I love this.

01:14:30.080 It's beautiful.

01:14:31.020 It's so playful.

01:14:32.360 It's got the feeling of a child's fairy tale.

01:14:37.100 But one that's not speaking down to children.

01:14:41.160 And there's real love in it.

01:14:42.980 And it's very frequently the case that mentoring relationships, apprenticeship relationships, have that love in them.

01:14:51.600 This shoemaker is teaching this young boy to a craft that will enable him to do something productive,

01:14:57.660 but also enable him to live, to provide him with a living.

01:15:02.380 And he's the good father, like Geppetto.

01:15:06.880 He's obviously pleased that his apprentice is showing mastery.

01:15:11.140 And that's the definition of a good father, perhaps a good parent, that you're pleased when your son or your daughter advances,

01:15:19.660 even when they advance beyond you, which hopefully they will if you're highly successful.

01:15:23.640 There's a lot of love in this illustration, as far as I'm concerned.

01:15:28.420 Yeah, I've tried to appeal to you.

01:15:30.220 If you look at the old guy, he's a young character.

01:15:35.760 Ah!

01:15:37.820 I can't believe you haven't noticed.

01:15:42.640 The list of things that I haven't noticed would fill many, many books.

01:15:46.520 That's so smart.

01:15:54.780 That's so smart.

01:15:55.960 He's a lovely character, this guy.

01:16:00.060 And the room that you've portrayed there is, it's a place of productive activity.

01:16:06.260 It's inviting.

01:16:07.340 And you made it theatrical again with the fabric along the top.

01:16:13.840 Yeah.

01:16:14.520 And so it's like we're looking into a private moment.

01:16:17.440 Exactly.

01:16:18.000 And the fact that it's theatrical.

01:16:19.480 So tell me, so this is, you've done this with a number of images.

01:16:24.520 What possessed you to do that?

01:16:28.120 My experience, my own experience, I suppose.

01:16:31.480 I've had that with my grandmother.

01:16:34.280 Why make it theatrical?

01:16:37.820 Theatrical, yes.

01:16:38.700 And so overtly, it's perfectly appropriate, especially given the tenor of the book.

01:16:46.340 I'm not sure, again, I'm not sure about most of my decisions.

01:16:51.240 I wouldn't.

01:16:52.560 Yes, well, that's the problem with, if artists can say what they do, they wouldn't need to

01:16:57.040 do their art.

01:16:58.800 I suppose so.

01:16:59.500 I don't know.

01:17:00.440 That's left to other people often.

01:17:02.180 And some of the worst claptrap ever produced is analysis of art, often by the artists

01:17:07.740 themselves, but often by critics as well.

01:17:11.100 Well, you open up the curtains on a scene.

01:17:14.900 And to open up the curtains on a scene is to indicate that this scene is of importance,

01:17:20.820 because otherwise, why put it on the stage?

01:17:22.640 Why open the curtains?

01:17:23.820 Why say that this is here for your consideration?

01:17:27.540 And so you're displaying to the viewer something of crucial importance here, is that this relationship

01:17:33.660 exists, and it's healthy and positive.

01:17:36.940 Yeah, and it's possible, and it's intimate.

01:17:39.300 Yes, and it's intimate as well.

01:17:41.160 Yes, exactly.

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01:20:28.660 Yes, lovely, beautiful.

01:20:34.480 That's my favorite.

01:20:35.880 Yes, and you managed to imbue this illustration with sentiment without it being maudlin or naive

01:20:41.900 or saccharine or sugar-coated, any of that.

01:20:46.600 And that's a very tricky thing to do, to make something positive and joyful and loving like

01:20:52.620 that without it degenerating into sentimentality.

01:20:56.960 Yeah, with a boy, I was struggling because many boys have increased emotions.

01:21:02.660 They're very emotional.

01:21:04.160 And I needed to show a sense of awe.

01:21:07.620 But every boy I tried, I probably tried 20.

01:21:12.100 Didn't work until I found this picture of my son 10 years ago.

01:21:15.760 He was making bubbles, soap bubbles, in the original picture.

01:21:23.040 And he looked at them without overly expressing his joy.

01:21:31.480 And that's the moment I like.

01:21:32.600 It's something in between.

01:21:34.660 Right.

01:21:35.220 So he's contemplating happily.

01:21:37.760 Yes.

01:21:38.500 He's not sure if it's good or not, but the father approves.

01:21:44.040 Great.

01:21:46.240 Rule eight.

01:21:47.820 Eight is IOS.

01:21:51.060 Try to make one room in your house, in your home, as beautiful as possible.

01:21:57.500 I tried that multiple times, and it was extraordinarily useful to try to make a room beautiful, or more

01:22:04.080 than one room.

01:22:05.000 It's such a good exercise to learn to cultivate a relationship with beauty.

01:22:10.940 It's in a world where so much is ugly, as beauty is as sustaining as bread, perhaps even more so.

01:22:19.920 And so, this is a testament, let's say, to Vincent van Gogh's irises, which at one point was a painting that sold for more than any other painting had ever sold for.

01:22:33.640 A hundred and seventy-odd million dollars, if I remember correctly.

01:22:37.420 I'm sure that record's been broken since then.

01:22:39.500 But it's of great interest to note that the most expensive artifacts in the world are artistic artifacts, and in principle, those that speak remind us of beauty.

01:22:53.380 And the chapter, rule seven, rule eight, try to make one room in your home as beautiful as possible, is a meditation on the ability of art to remind us of what we've forgotten.

01:23:06.300 So, tell me about the choices you made in this image.

01:23:14.640 So, the original irises, the jug, is very tiny, and very much looks like his face with an ear, the original jug.

01:23:24.800 And I couldn't use that, so I needed a different jug, and I needed it to be rural, nothing more than that, and the wood, the place, and I needed more than that.

01:23:41.580 I was looking at those, and I was not sure this is irises by van Gogh, until I found a way to make it his, with the portrait on the background.

01:23:51.740 That is clear.

01:23:54.220 And also, it's slightly off-centered, and slightly looks like a mistake.

01:24:03.180 But thanks for his face, it's perfectly harmonious within the page.

01:24:09.740 Do you see that?

01:24:11.840 It's slightly off, but it's not.

01:24:14.280 So, that's part of what makes a piece of visual art work, is the relationship between the images and their hypothetical mass.

01:24:26.640 It's something like that.

01:24:27.920 They have to be balanced properly on the page.

01:24:31.040 Absolutely.

01:24:31.560 So, you picked, you talked about the rural nature of the jug, and the plain wood table that it's sitting on.

01:24:43.520 That's to not take away from the flowers?

01:24:48.220 Yeah.

01:24:52.900 Well, every artist directs the attention of his or her viewer.

01:24:57.260 Now, the attention is on irises.

01:25:01.940 So, you make decisions.

01:25:03.480 Often, this is one of the reasons I believe that hand-drawn animated art is preferable to computer-generated animated art.

01:25:11.700 Often, computer animation allows animators to render their images with incredible complexity and detail.

01:25:24.040 But it's easy for the viewer to get lost as a consequence, whereas a movie like Sleeping Beauty, you know exactly where to look, because everything that isn't relevant is faded out to some degree, and that which is relevant is high resolution.

01:25:40.380 And so, the artist is helping the viewer view the image by making decisions about what is highlighted and what isn't.

01:25:48.560 And that's part of how the artist allows the image to tell a story, because the artist can guide the attention of the viewer by making careful choices about what's foreground and what's background.

01:26:02.180 Yeah, and that reminds me of my thinking, that nowadays, graphics are too sharp.

01:26:09.380 They're too chewed on properly.

01:26:12.040 All you have to do is swallow.

01:26:13.160 It's just there for you, completely.

01:26:16.640 Everything is in focus.

01:26:18.180 Everything, every single detail.

01:26:20.300 It's very saturated.

01:26:22.140 There is no mystery.

01:26:24.120 And it's not how my eyes see.

01:26:26.000 Maybe it's the poor vision.

01:26:27.700 No, it's not how anybody's eyes sees.

01:26:30.340 It's not how I see, and I need it to be realistic.

01:26:33.780 I mean, the way we see is when we look at something straight on, what we're directly looking at is in high resolution.

01:26:42.640 But as we move beyond the center of our vision to the periphery, everything becomes much less high resolution.

01:26:50.940 And that's because, well, we have limited visual computational resources, but we view what's most important in high detail and let everything else go.

01:27:03.060 And that is obvious, absolutely obvious.

01:27:06.180 But if you look at every single one of them, they're not in focus.

01:27:09.840 They're not perfectly sharp.

01:27:12.860 And that's on purpose.

01:27:15.060 And what do you think that does?

01:27:18.960 It gives them a dreamlike quality.

01:27:21.240 That's one thing I noticed about it.

01:27:22.800 First of all, yeah, then it reminds us what we saw like 30, 40 years ago and forgot how beautiful it was.

01:27:33.060 Rule nine.

01:27:35.800 If old memories still upset you, write them down carefully and completely.

01:27:45.220 This, I believe, was St. Anthony.

01:27:50.120 There's a number of famous representations of St. Anthony being tormented by demons.

01:27:56.600 We're all tormented by the demons of our imagination, regrets, fears, paranoias, perhaps other people in our representations.

01:28:11.160 And he's peaceful in this image, despite this torment.

01:28:16.100 And I thought this was an extremely effective image.

01:28:22.040 Jordan, look at the eyes.

01:28:24.040 Doesn't it remind you of anybody?

01:28:30.380 Who is it?

01:28:31.840 That's you.

01:28:32.420 I've noticed many times in your lectures, in your interviews, you're looking for answers.

01:28:42.000 And look up.

01:28:43.040 And look up.

01:28:43.960 Exactly like that.

01:28:45.380 Maybe not as tormented, but you always look up on the angle, not straight.

01:28:49.980 Slightly on the angle like that.

01:28:52.400 I'd say that tormented.

01:28:57.460 So I just wanted it to be relatable.

01:29:02.420 Well, I guess you need to look up to find what it is that makes the torment worthwhile.

01:29:26.400 And you're fortunate if you find that.

01:29:28.520 That was the one where we have to make some construction work on his feet.

01:29:44.760 Plan and work diligently to maintain the romance in your relationship.

01:29:49.440 Yes, and you're very fortunate if you can do that.

01:29:51.960 That's for sure.

01:29:52.780 Another dance.

01:29:55.080 And this was, do you remember the image I sent you?

01:29:58.980 Do you remember the artist?

01:30:00.260 Was it?

01:30:02.400 I can't remember, unfortunately.

01:30:06.640 The kiss.

01:30:08.960 Yeah, I can check it out right now.

01:30:11.440 Was it also Gustave Doré?

01:30:13.020 It was inspired by Aubrey Bursley.

01:30:17.620 Aubrey Bursley.

01:30:18.800 Yeah, Bursley.

01:30:19.840 Yes.

01:30:20.980 That was my only reference.

01:30:22.560 Just one picture.

01:30:23.300 So, the fact, when you see a couple moving harmoniously together, and they seem to belong together, the reason they seem to belong together is because they're mimicking each other in their posture.

01:30:46.420 And that doesn't mean that they're necessarily doing exactly the same thing, but the manner in which one person holds their body is related to the manner in which the other person is holding their body.

01:30:58.980 And you see this with mothers and children.

01:31:01.180 So, if you take videos of mothers who are in a good mental state with their infants, and you speed them up, videoing the mother and the infant, you see that they're engaged in a continual dance of reaction and response.

01:31:15.560 But if you do that with depressed mothers, then you don't get the same rhythm and harmony in the interactions.

01:31:22.200 And that's because the relationship is disrupted by the depression.

01:31:26.340 So, in this representation, these two are very harmoniously linked together, and they're maintaining the romance in their relationship.

01:31:36.180 And the chapter is a discussion of the multitude of problems that have to be solved in a relationship for that romance to be maintained across time.

01:31:50.740 It's as if romance, if you think about it, you might think about it as a form of play.

01:31:55.880 And play is very easily disrupted among children if children are in any powerful emotional state that will interfere with their play.

01:32:06.900 All their needs, in some sense, have to be taken care of before play will emerge.

01:32:13.160 And that also seems to be the case to some large degree with regard to the relationship between men and women, or between two intimate partners.

01:32:24.140 There's many things that have to be solved properly for the romance to be maintained across time.

01:32:30.940 And rule 12, be grateful in spite of your suffering.

01:32:46.100 Another saint.

01:32:51.020 Images that have become much rarer in the modern world.

01:32:57.940 So, tell me about this image.

01:33:00.940 Well, again, not overly expressive.

01:33:04.480 At peace.

01:33:07.740 He looks like he's part of the tree.

01:33:10.820 Mm-hmm.

01:33:11.980 Yep.

01:33:13.040 Again, not everything in focus.

01:33:14.860 Again, it's tree that doesn't exactly look like a tree, and you can't see the bottom of the tree, which often happens in real life.

01:33:25.260 You don't see every single branch of the tree when you're looking on a man.

01:33:30.940 And so, I hadn't noticed that before.

01:33:33.900 Do you know why you decided to make the bottom of the tree obscured?

01:33:38.520 It wasn't a conscious decision.

01:33:41.820 Well, so then what it looks like is that his legs now become the trunk of the tree.

01:33:48.400 Oh, I see that.

01:33:51.640 And they mirror the branches, the major branches in the tree.

01:33:56.700 Oh, my God.

01:33:57.180 Exactly.

01:33:57.540 So, you're indicating that's a really good example of how the visual imagination can supersede the conscious knowledge.

01:34:07.640 Of course, you don't know why you made all the decisions you made in these images.

01:34:11.540 How in the world could you possibly know?

01:34:13.480 And the image should contain way more than you think.

01:34:17.000 I mean, if you diligently worked at it.

01:34:19.900 And, you know, if you had planned a drawing that said, well, I'm going to give a man the strength of a tree, it's doubtful that you could have consciously come up with a solution that would be better than the one that you picked as a consequence of your aesthetic judgment.

01:34:34.920 Yes.

01:34:35.160 So, he's rooted powerfully.

01:34:37.600 I mean, what you have there is that what's rooted powerfully in the earth is his feet and his legs.

01:34:44.520 And you've indicated that that's a more powerful rooting, a more significant rooting than the rooting of the tree itself.

01:34:54.540 There's a bird in the background.

01:34:57.260 Yeah.

01:34:58.260 You've noticed.

01:35:00.900 And that made you laugh.

01:35:03.440 I'm happy you noticed.

01:35:05.520 Why?

01:35:06.900 Because that was intentional.

01:35:12.720 Bird is a freedom.

01:35:17.960 All right.

01:35:18.660 So, I'm going to close this up.

01:35:20.240 But I want to ask you something else.

01:35:23.340 Which is, I suppose, the question I wanted answered more than any other question that I could put to you.

01:35:29.320 What has been the consequence for you of having undertaken this job?

01:35:33.700 What's happened?

01:35:38.640 I mean, partly as a consequence of making the images, but you've had some attention directed your way now because of the book.

01:35:46.980 And there's going to be a lot more coming because of this video and because the book will be out March 2nd.

01:35:53.440 What's changed for you?

01:35:55.780 Nothing yet.

01:35:59.340 Nothing changed yet.

01:36:01.320 I don't know what's going to come.

01:36:02.920 Maybe you do.

01:36:04.140 No, I don't.

01:36:05.160 I don't.

01:36:05.340 I have no idea if and what, but I've accomplished what I wanted, and what I wanted is to make you smile during the period of difficulty.

01:36:17.100 And Michaela tipped me off.

01:36:18.500 Every time you saw an art, she would tell me, Dad said, oh my God, and that would make my day.

01:36:30.460 Well, I appreciate that very much.

01:36:32.760 And I'm very happy to have the illustrations in my book.

01:36:41.240 Very surreal.

01:36:42.080 I think they're a great addition to the book.

01:36:45.440 Have you seen the book?

01:36:46.760 They're not yet next week.

01:36:48.840 You know, I have preprints.

01:36:50.160 I have the PDFs.

01:36:51.180 And so I haven't seen how the images look in the final production yet.

01:36:57.580 I like the images in my first book.

01:37:00.600 These are nicely different.

01:37:02.300 And they're more romantic.

01:37:06.060 They're more fairytale-like.

01:37:08.500 They're more elusive in some sense.

01:37:16.300 I hope people like them a lot.

01:37:18.500 I suspect that they will.

01:37:20.420 And I hope that the kind of attention that you want comes your way, the kind of attention that would be best for you comes your way as a consequence of doing this.

01:37:31.680 Thank you.

01:37:32.880 Thank you very much for all your work.

01:37:37.520 Absolutely welcome.

01:37:39.340 You helped us solve a very difficult problem at a very difficult time.

01:37:44.200 That was my intention.

01:37:46.220 Nothing else.

01:37:48.900 Well, it's lovely to meet you.

01:37:51.800 I hope we get to do it in person.

01:37:54.360 We will.

01:37:55.220 And maybe we'll talk again publicly some months after the book is released.

01:38:02.380 And we can discuss the consequences then.

01:38:06.580 That would be nice.

01:38:08.400 Is there anything else that you'd like to say?

01:38:12.080 Just that I'm very happy to meet you.

01:38:17.020 Nothing else.

01:38:17.980 I'm just very happy to see you talking to me off the screen.

01:38:24.980 Well, it was good to get to know you.

01:38:27.860 Thank you very much.

01:38:29.000 And we'll make this into an interesting visual display as well as an interesting conversation.

01:38:35.720 All right.

01:38:36.520 Thank you very much.

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The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast - March 07, 2021

157. Beyond Order - the Illustrator ｜ Juliette Fogra

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