The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast

00:00:00.960 Hey everyone, real quick before you skip, I want to talk to you about something serious and important.

00:00:06.480 Dr. Jordan Peterson has created a new series that could be a lifeline for those battling depression and anxiety.

00:00:12.740 We know how isolating and overwhelming these conditions can be, and we wanted to take a moment to reach out to those listening who may be struggling.

00:00:20.100 With decades of experience helping patients, Dr. Peterson offers a unique understanding of why you might be feeling this way in his new series.

00:00:27.420 He provides a roadmap towards healing, showing that while the journey isn't easy, it's absolutely possible to find your way forward.

00:00:35.360 If you're suffering, please know you are not alone. There's hope, and there's a path to feeling better.

00:00:41.800 Go to Daily Wire Plus now and start watching Dr. Jordan B. Peterson on depression and anxiety.

00:00:47.460 Let this be the first step towards the brighter future you deserve.

00:00:51.060 Welcome to the JBP Podcast, Season 4, Episode 23, with Dr. Anthony Daniels.

00:01:00.240 Dr. Anthony Daniels is a British writer and essayist, better known by his pen name, Theodore Dalrymple.

00:01:06.500 He's known for writing such pieces as Life at the Bottom, The Worldview That Makes the Underclass,

00:01:12.020 The Mandarins in the Masses, Not with a Bang with a Whimper,

00:01:15.760 Spoiled Rotten, The Toxic Cult of Sentimentality, and The Terror of Existence.

00:01:21.060 He has written columns in The Times, The Spectator, and The Wall Street Journal.

00:01:25.680 Dr. Anthony Daniels and my dad discussed a variety of topics relating to distinct differences in culture

00:01:30.880 and mindset in the poor underclass in Britain.

00:01:34.100 They examined many stories from Dr. Daniels' time as a consulting physician in a prison and hospital

00:01:39.280 in one of the poorest areas of London,

00:01:41.560 and draw conclusions on similarities in violence, domestic abuse, learned helplessness,

00:01:46.560 education, monogamy, the disintegration of family, and more.

00:01:51.980 This episode is brought to you by Helix Sleep.

00:01:54.480 I love my Helix Sleep mattress.

00:01:56.560 Helix Sleep has a quiz that matches your body type and sleep preferences to the perfect mattress for you.

00:02:01.460 You can also get an option where they make half of the mattress a different way

00:02:05.980 so that your significant other who likes the mattress more soft

00:02:09.340 can have a different type of mattress on their side.

00:02:12.560 Helix has soft, medium, and firm mattresses.

00:02:15.000 Mattresses great for cooling you down if you sleep hot,

00:02:17.660 and even a Helix Plus mattress for plus-size sleepers.

00:02:20.600 I took the Helix quiz, and I was matched with Helix Midnight.

00:02:24.840 I have a bit of a hard time sleeping, trying to calm my brain down,

00:02:27.600 and the fact I have a mattress I like makes a huge difference.

00:02:31.060 Mixed with white noise, a cold room, an eye mask, memory foam pillow, I can relax a bit.

00:02:36.840 If you're looking for a mattress, you take the quiz,

00:02:39.080 you order the mattress that you're matched to,

00:02:40.920 and the mattress comes right to your door, shipped for free.

00:02:44.920 They have a 10-year warranty,

00:02:46.380 so you get to try it out for 100 nights, risk-free.

00:02:50.760 They'll even pick it up for you if you don't love it, but you will.

00:02:53.680 Just go to helixsleep.com slash Jordan,

00:02:57.320 take their two-minute sleep quiz,

00:02:58.980 and they'll match you to a customized mattress

00:03:00.700 that will give you the best sleep of your life.

00:03:03.580 You don't have to take my word for it.

00:03:05.520 Helix was awarded the number one best overall mattress pick of 2020

00:03:09.060 by GQ and Wired Magazine.

00:03:12.320 It's a great deal.

00:03:13.280 Helix is offering up to $200 off all mattress orders,

00:03:16.380 and two free pillows for our listeners at helixsleep.com slash Jordan.

00:03:21.700 That's helixsleep.com slash Jordan for up to $200 off and two free pillows.

00:03:46.380 Hello, everyone.

00:03:47.140 I'm very pleased to welcome today one of the writers I admire for the content

00:03:56.940 and for the quality of the prose itself.

00:04:00.600 He's been compared to George Orwell, which is high praise indeed,

00:04:06.700 as one of Great Britain's finest essayists,

00:04:10.900 Dr. Anthony Daniels, better known by his pen name, Theodore Delrimple.

00:04:16.780 He worked as a prison doctor and psychiatrist, retired in 2005,

00:04:21.420 but worked all over the world and traveled.

00:04:24.060 And he's written many books,

00:04:26.160 some of which have had a rather profound cultural impact,

00:04:30.220 including Life at the Bottom, The Worldview That Makes the Underclass, 2001,

00:04:36.620 where he discusses what you might describe as the philosophy of poverty,

00:04:41.240 our culture, what's left of it,

00:04:43.380 the mandarins and the masses, 2005,

00:04:46.100 not with a bang, but a whimper,

00:04:48.660 the politics and culture of decline, 2008,

00:04:51.240 Spoiled Rotten, The Toxic Cult of Sentimentality, 2010,

00:04:57.580 and The Terror of Existence with Catholic theologian Kenneth Francis in 2018.

00:05:03.360 For The Spectator, he wrote a weekly column on his experiences as a prison doctor

00:05:08.140 for 14 years.

00:05:10.280 Those were later collected in various books.

00:05:13.180 He wrote a weekly column for the British Medical Journal as well

00:05:15.820 for six years discussing medicine and literature.

00:05:19.400 His essays have appeared in the finest newspapers and magazines in the world,

00:05:24.080 including The Times, The Spectator, and The Wall Street Journal.

00:05:28.120 Welcome, and thank you very much for agreeing to talk with me.

00:05:32.260 Well, thank you for asking me.

00:05:34.520 I'm going to start by telling you how I found out about you.

00:05:38.940 When I was working as a clinical psychologist,

00:05:42.240 I had a social worker as a client who,

00:05:46.020 an immigrant, second-generation immigrant female

00:05:51.920 who had been a rather radically leftist thinker in her youth

00:05:58.120 and then spent 20 years in the social work trenches

00:06:01.680 and was eventually hounded out of her profession,

00:06:07.240 hounded and bullied out of her profession

00:06:09.300 by the radical leftists themselves.

00:06:13.380 And she mentioned life at the bottom to me.

00:06:18.220 And so I picked it up and read it,

00:06:19.900 and I thought,

00:06:20.620 I've never heard anyone state this so bluntly.

00:06:26.360 What struck me, I guess, was three things.

00:06:29.200 Apart from the quality of your writing and the content,

00:06:37.520 the particularities of your experience.

00:06:41.660 You said, for example, that you had dealt with poverty,

00:06:45.420 with people who were in poverty in various places in the world,

00:06:48.840 Africa, for example,

00:06:49.840 and then in Great Britain,

00:06:53.340 in the inner cities,

00:06:54.520 in what you regard as the underclass,

00:06:57.480 a permanent, multi-generational segment of society

00:07:02.380 that are, in some sense,

00:07:05.280 they've fallen out of the bottom of the culture,

00:07:07.160 in your view.

00:07:07.840 And what you concentrated,

00:07:10.200 you focused on the difference between that poverty

00:07:13.140 and the poverty of absolute deprivation

00:07:16.300 that you encountered in places like Africa.

00:07:18.600 But then you added another twist to it,

00:07:21.400 which was you made a very, very strong case

00:07:24.060 that there was a philosophy in some sense,

00:07:27.840 or maybe an anti-philosophy,

00:07:29.780 but it boils down to the same thing,

00:07:32.680 a worldview that constituted the essence of the poverty

00:07:37.900 that you saw in Great Britain,

00:07:40.420 which you also regarded in many ways

00:07:42.980 as more severe and less addressable

00:07:46.340 than the poverty that you had seen

00:07:47.900 in the developing world, for example.

00:07:51.160 So it was your combination of broad,

00:07:53.780 worldly experience,

00:07:55.400 intense involvement with the underclass

00:07:57.780 that so many people feel morally obliged to save,

00:08:01.880 in some sense,

00:08:02.520 but actually never interact with,

00:08:04.240 your experience as a psychiatrist,

00:08:05.860 and then your willingness to put down

00:08:07.620 these very critical

00:08:10.520 and certainly politically incorrect

00:08:15.240 by virtually every measure observations,

00:08:18.060 which to me rang true,

00:08:20.860 generally true,

00:08:21.740 and which I hadn't encountered

00:08:23.360 with any other thinker.

00:08:26.560 Yes.

00:08:27.460 Well, I didn't really start out

00:08:29.700 with any preconception,

00:08:32.120 certainly not any political preconception.

00:08:34.220 I just saw a lot of patients,

00:08:38.180 and the penny began to drop about

00:08:41.500 what their lives were like

00:08:44.140 and what they expected from life.

00:08:47.080 Who did you see?

00:08:48.220 Tell everyone about the nature of the patients.

00:08:50.440 Well, I worked in an inner-city hospital.

00:08:54.140 The inner-city hospital was right next door

00:08:57.180 to the prison,

00:08:57.800 and the main difference

00:08:59.420 between these two great institutions

00:09:01.160 was that there were far more violence

00:09:02.920 in the hospital

00:09:03.760 than in the prison.

00:09:07.000 But,

00:09:08.200 and I would work in the morning

00:09:10.680 in the hospital,

00:09:11.800 and then I would go and work

00:09:13.100 in the prison

00:09:14.160 in the afternoon,

00:09:17.160 and often at night

00:09:19.680 and weekends as well.

00:09:23.220 So in the hospital,

00:09:25.440 I saw maybe

00:09:28.360 something in the region of,

00:09:31.820 I didn't count exactly,

00:09:33.220 10,000 to 15,000 cases

00:09:34.860 of attempted suicide,

00:09:36.860 or at least of suicidal gestures

00:09:39.040 that varied from

00:09:40.660 real attempts at suicide

00:09:43.480 to attempts to bring parents to heal,

00:09:49.400 everything in between.

00:09:51.440 But anyway,

00:09:52.260 everyone,

00:09:53.280 I examined them all,

00:09:55.440 or when I say examined,

00:09:56.800 I mean I spoke to them all,

00:09:58.080 and of course they told me

00:09:59.060 about the life around them.

00:10:02.440 So they told me

00:10:03.240 about the,

00:10:03.900 about the,

00:10:06.880 about the lives of people

00:10:09.220 around them,

00:10:10.220 and so in the end

00:10:11.400 I probably heard about

00:10:12.740 the lives of maybe

00:10:14.400 40,000, 50,000 people,

00:10:17.660 of course,

00:10:18.060 refracted through,

00:10:20.060 through these people's lenses.

00:10:22.140 But nevertheless,

00:10:24.200 though it was a selected sample

00:10:26.200 of people,

00:10:26.700 it wasn't a small sample

00:10:27.860 of people.

00:10:29.220 And so obviously I,

00:10:32.020 I began to draw

00:10:33.960 some conclusions,

00:10:35.620 see some generalizations,

00:10:37.880 which I didn't start with.

00:10:41.700 So,

00:10:42.240 and so we could talk about

00:10:43.660 the selection for a minute.

00:10:44.940 I mean,

00:10:45.380 you,

00:10:45.860 because you were working

00:10:46.680 in the hospital

00:10:47.280 and in the prison,

00:10:48.760 you obviously saw people

00:10:50.220 who were hospitalized

00:10:51.100 or who were in prison.

00:10:54.240 And so obviously

00:10:54.940 there's a selection there,

00:10:56.100 but you,

00:10:56.960 your,

00:10:57.240 your patients were drawn

00:10:58.540 from lower socioeconomic strata,

00:11:00.900 so they were poor

00:11:02.080 and dispossessed,

00:11:03.240 but comparatively speaking,

00:11:06.720 but,

00:11:07.100 and there,

00:11:08.820 they had got into trouble

00:11:10.240 of one form or another

00:11:11.280 that was sufficiently damaging

00:11:12.880 so that they ended up

00:11:14.060 being brought to the attention

00:11:15.760 of the medical authorities

00:11:17.600 because of the own,

00:11:18.960 the damage that had been

00:11:20.100 inflicted on them

00:11:20.960 or prison authorities

00:11:21.920 because of the damage

00:11:22.760 that they inflicted

00:11:23.540 on other people.

00:11:24.440 So that's the selection.

00:11:25.420 It would be poor people,

00:11:27.680 relatively poor people

00:11:28.700 who were also in trouble.

00:11:31.340 Yes.

00:11:31.480 And you,

00:11:32.880 you,

00:11:33.460 you said you didn't start

00:11:34.960 with political intent

00:11:37.040 while you were a psychiatrist,

00:11:38.380 but,

00:11:40.680 well,

00:11:41.180 walk us through

00:11:42.060 what you saw,

00:11:43.040 if you would,

00:11:44.000 and over and over

00:11:45.620 and,

00:11:46.000 and what,

00:11:46.580 what you started to conclude

00:11:47.760 and why you started

00:11:48.660 to communicate it.

00:11:50.820 Well,

00:11:51.540 I,

00:11:52.100 I'll deal with

00:11:52.840 why I started

00:11:53.560 to communicate

00:11:54.260 it

00:11:56.060 was that it was

00:11:57.500 so terrible

00:11:58.220 that it would

00:12:00.060 that I would have

00:12:03.280 found it very difficult

00:12:04.280 to keep it to myself

00:12:05.600 and remain sane.

00:12:06.780 In fact,

00:12:07.240 my predecessor

00:12:08.280 in the job,

00:12:09.220 I found

00:12:09.740 little bottles

00:12:10.840 of vodka

00:12:11.440 everywhere

00:12:12.040 where he,

00:12:13.220 he went

00:12:14.280 because I think

00:12:15.740 he had found it

00:12:16.580 extremely difficult.

00:12:18.060 It was very,

00:12:18.760 very distressing.

00:12:20.060 Once,

00:12:20.560 for example,

00:12:21.060 I kept a,

00:12:22.220 a diary

00:12:24.620 of what I saw

00:12:25.620 every day

00:12:26.300 rather than,

00:12:28.200 rather than,

00:12:29.740 uh,

00:12:31.940 mold it

00:12:32.760 in a kind

00:12:33.460 of literary fashion

00:12:34.680 for articles,

00:12:35.580 I just wrote down

00:12:36.760 what I saw

00:12:37.740 and after a very short time,

00:12:39.920 actually only a few days,

00:12:41.220 I thought,

00:12:41.600 I can't go on

00:12:42.360 with this.

00:12:43.140 First of all,

00:12:43.560 no one would want

00:12:44.280 to read it.

00:12:45.100 It's just too terrible.

00:12:46.560 So actually,

00:12:47.160 things were worse

00:12:48.080 than I described

00:12:49.520 in my book.

00:12:50.660 Uh,

00:12:51.660 now what I saw

00:12:52.680 was a complete

00:12:53.560 social,

00:12:54.700 what seemed to me

00:12:55.600 a complete

00:12:56.400 social breakdown.

00:12:57.780 I mean,

00:12:58.300 uh,

00:12:58.920 there were almost

00:12:59.980 no families

00:13:00.960 in the sense

00:13:01.740 of mother,

00:13:02.440 father,

00:13:02.760 and children.

00:13:03.740 That was almost

00:13:04.660 unknown

00:13:05.140 in the area.

00:13:07.040 Practically unknown.

00:13:08.220 If you asked

00:13:09.000 16-year-olds

00:13:10.140 who their father is,

00:13:11.600 they replied

00:13:12.280 with things like,

00:13:13.500 do you mean

00:13:14.000 my father

00:13:14.520 at the moment?

00:13:16.520 Or they would say,

00:13:18.440 when I say,

00:13:19.060 who is your father,

00:13:19.880 they just say,

00:13:20.440 no.

00:13:21.940 Well,

00:13:22.220 I,

00:13:22.400 when I went,

00:13:23.040 I was listening

00:13:23.660 to your book

00:13:24.200 this morning,

00:13:25.180 uh,

00:13:25.460 life at the bottom

00:13:26.240 at 2.5 times

00:13:28.500 normal speed.

00:13:29.240 And it was quite the,

00:13:30.960 I mean,

00:13:31.260 I'd read it before,

00:13:32.040 but I,

00:13:33.420 I had forgotten

00:13:34.340 what the,

00:13:37.220 it's an unending

00:13:38.220 litany of complete

00:13:39.720 calamity across

00:13:41.080 every dimension

00:13:41.860 you can possibly

00:13:42.780 imagine.

00:13:43.320 And then you said

00:13:44.520 you saw like

00:13:45.280 20,000 of people

00:13:47.160 who were in

00:13:47.700 dire suicidal

00:13:48.920 straits.

00:13:49.420 In addition,

00:13:50.340 I,

00:13:50.520 I presume

00:13:51.100 that you had

00:13:51.660 patients other

00:13:52.640 than those

00:13:53.240 who were suicidal

00:13:54.000 as well.

00:13:55.660 Yes.

00:13:56.020 Well,

00:13:56.260 mainly because

00:13:57.000 I was working

00:13:57.700 in a general,

00:13:58.520 it was a general

00:13:59.180 hospital.

00:14:00.480 Then I would

00:14:01.320 see organic

00:14:02.260 patients with

00:14:03.280 organic problems

00:14:04.360 and a few

00:14:05.580 others.

00:14:06.520 People who'd

00:14:06.940 been beaten

00:14:07.380 by their

00:14:07.800 partners?

00:14:08.260 Oh,

00:14:09.280 I saw that

00:14:10.140 that was

00:14:10.640 standard,

00:14:11.360 of course.

00:14:11.980 I mean,

00:14:12.340 I discovered

00:14:13.480 that about

00:14:14.040 80% of

00:14:15.200 the women

00:14:16.400 whom I

00:14:18.420 saw

00:14:18.900 had suffered

00:14:20.180 violence at

00:14:21.040 the hands

00:14:21.560 of their,

00:14:22.480 one or more

00:14:23.500 of their sexual

00:14:24.460 partners.

00:14:25.560 Well,

00:14:25.780 we can dig

00:14:26.300 in there.

00:14:26.940 You tell

00:14:27.280 this story

00:14:27.960 that's really

00:14:28.440 quite interesting.

00:14:29.240 So you're

00:14:30.240 and very,

00:14:31.900 what would

00:14:33.380 you say,

00:14:35.340 libel,

00:14:36.140 any discussion

00:14:36.940 of it is

00:14:37.380 libel to

00:14:37.820 create

00:14:38.120 controversy.

00:14:39.580 So you

00:14:40.100 talked about

00:14:41.040 the women

00:14:42.020 that you saw,

00:14:42.680 the patients

00:14:43.220 who chronically

00:14:44.960 chose

00:14:46.020 males

00:14:47.260 who you

00:14:48.720 could identify

00:14:50.060 at a glance

00:14:51.140 as extraordinarily

00:14:52.440 likely to

00:14:53.760 burst into

00:14:55.120 violent,

00:14:56.100 jealous,

00:14:56.560 rages,

00:14:57.080 and become

00:14:58.360 physically

00:14:58.920 violent.

00:14:59.560 And you

00:15:00.080 also point

00:15:01.000 out that

00:15:01.460 the markers

00:15:02.380 for that

00:15:02.900 were not

00:15:03.360 precisely

00:15:04.040 subtle,

00:15:05.260 comparing the

00:15:06.020 men that you

00:15:07.000 were looking

00:15:07.400 at,

00:15:07.860 I believe,

00:15:08.440 to your

00:15:08.800 neighbor's

00:15:09.360 tomcat,

00:15:10.060 who had

00:15:10.300 been in

00:15:10.620 enough

00:15:10.940 fights,

00:15:11.400 so his

00:15:11.760 head was

00:15:12.580 a mass

00:15:13.000 of shredded

00:15:13.520 ears and

00:15:14.140 scars and

00:15:14.860 missing an

00:15:15.720 eye.

00:15:16.040 And so

00:15:16.260 these were

00:15:16.640 men who

00:15:17.000 had shaved

00:15:17.520 heads,

00:15:18.080 multiple

00:15:18.400 scars from

00:15:19.620 battles,

00:15:20.680 often tattooed,

00:15:22.360 often tattooed

00:15:23.720 on their

00:15:24.140 fists with

00:15:24.880 blatant

00:15:25.420 messages of

00:15:26.340 nihilism or

00:15:27.640 social

00:15:28.540 rejection or

00:15:29.440 anger or

00:15:30.420 threats or

00:15:32.900 curse words.

00:15:34.920 So it

00:15:35.840 wasn't exactly

00:15:36.560 subtle.

00:15:38.400 And you

00:15:39.460 said that

00:15:40.080 they

00:15:40.380 invariably

00:15:41.220 wore an

00:15:43.120 expression of

00:15:44.020 malign contempt,

00:15:45.500 something like

00:15:46.100 that.

00:15:46.480 And they

00:15:47.060 were people

00:15:47.480 you would

00:15:47.800 obviously give

00:15:48.560 wide berth to

00:15:49.400 in the street

00:15:50.160 in broad

00:15:50.700 daylight,

00:15:51.420 yet they

00:15:52.740 were invariably

00:15:53.940 tangled up with

00:15:54.920 a woman or

00:15:55.760 two or three

00:15:56.480 or ten who

00:15:57.520 they were

00:15:57.940 abusing

00:15:58.660 serially.

00:15:59.840 And the

00:16:01.200 women seemed

00:16:02.140 in some sense

00:16:04.080 blind to this,

00:16:04.860 but not only

00:16:05.460 the underclass

00:16:07.020 women that you

00:16:07.680 were serving,

00:16:08.380 but you also

00:16:09.020 mentioned that

00:16:09.580 that was

00:16:09.920 extraordinarily

00:16:10.660 prevalent among

00:16:12.260 the nursing

00:16:12.840 staff.

00:16:14.640 And so

00:16:14.960 walk us

00:16:16.040 through that

00:16:16.400 and tell us

00:16:17.140 how you make

00:16:17.960 sense of that.

00:16:19.300 Well,

00:16:19.560 it wasn't,

00:16:20.780 I wouldn't say

00:16:21.640 it was prevalent

00:16:22.420 amongst the

00:16:23.160 nursing staff,

00:16:23.820 it was present

00:16:24.380 in the nursing

00:16:25.700 staff.

00:16:28.000 Well,

00:16:28.960 my interpretation,

00:16:30.660 which would be

00:16:31.200 of course

00:16:31.680 regarded as

00:16:33.040 highly reactionary,

00:16:34.220 in the end,

00:16:34.920 this is the

00:16:35.420 conclusion I

00:16:36.080 came to,

00:16:37.080 was that

00:16:37.560 because sexual

00:16:38.540 relations had

00:16:39.820 been freed

00:16:40.860 from all

00:16:42.020 contractual,

00:16:46.180 cultural,

00:16:47.900 economic

00:16:49.980 restraint and

00:16:52.200 constraint,

00:16:53.200 then what

00:16:54.600 was left

00:16:55.300 was a kind

00:16:56.120 of free

00:16:56.560 for all.

00:16:58.080 And the

00:16:58.400 men wanted

00:17:00.440 exclusive sexual

00:17:01.640 possession of

00:17:02.340 somebody,

00:17:02.740 but at the

00:17:03.080 same time

00:17:03.560 they wanted

00:17:03.980 complete sexual

00:17:06.560 freedom.

00:17:07.540 Now,

00:17:07.900 these things

00:17:08.460 don't go

00:17:09.100 together very

00:17:10.300 well.

00:17:11.440 I mean,

00:17:11.880 if there's

00:17:12.660 complete sexual

00:17:13.640 freedom,

00:17:14.180 okay,

00:17:14.600 there's complete

00:17:15.100 sexual freedom,

00:17:16.200 but if at the

00:17:16.900 same time

00:17:17.600 you want,

00:17:19.240 possibly for

00:17:20.220 reasons of

00:17:21.340 boosting your

00:17:22.600 self-image,

00:17:23.860 the exclusive

00:17:24.440 sexual possession

00:17:25.460 of somebody,

00:17:27.040 then,

00:17:28.160 and everyone

00:17:28.800 around you

00:17:29.580 is the same,

00:17:30.700 then the men

00:17:31.620 would see other

00:17:32.480 men as threats.

00:17:34.660 So they would

00:17:35.520 be, and they

00:17:36.020 would become

00:17:36.480 extremely jealous

00:17:37.520 because they

00:17:39.720 would fear

00:17:40.540 any,

00:17:41.760 any contact

00:17:44.960 between their

00:17:46.160 girlfriend,

00:17:49.220 they were never

00:17:49.580 wise,

00:17:50.240 girlfriend with

00:17:51.580 another man

00:17:52.480 would lead to,

00:17:54.320 or might lead

00:17:55.220 to a liaison.

00:17:56.760 And after all,

00:17:57.520 since they were

00:17:58.220 sexually predatory

00:17:59.320 in that way,

00:18:01.360 they assumed

00:18:02.400 that everyone

00:18:02.860 around them

00:18:03.740 was of similar

00:18:06.560 ilk,

00:18:07.460 and which was

00:18:08.300 often true.

00:18:09.160 And this

00:18:09.820 used to lead

00:18:11.140 to fights,

00:18:11.760 for example,

00:18:12.560 in so-called

00:18:15.240 nightclubs,

00:18:16.440 which,

00:18:17.520 I mean,

00:18:17.740 when I was

00:18:18.180 young,

00:18:18.440 a nightclub

00:18:19.060 was a place

00:18:20.140 where there

00:18:20.540 was a floor

00:18:21.100 show and

00:18:21.920 little tables

00:18:22.780 around,

00:18:23.280 but these

00:18:23.940 were great

00:18:24.380 caverns of

00:18:25.500 thousands of

00:18:27.420 people,

00:18:28.260 where if one,

00:18:30.420 where if a man

00:18:31.240 looked at a

00:18:32.160 girlfriend,

00:18:33.600 it was assumed

00:18:35.040 to be a

00:18:35.780 challenge by

00:18:36.920 the girlfriend's

00:18:38.820 boyfriend.

00:18:40.380 And so there

00:18:42.020 could be fights

00:18:42.940 and even murder.

00:18:45.300 So I got in

00:18:46.620 trouble with

00:18:47.460 the New York

00:18:48.040 Times because

00:18:48.900 I pointed out

00:18:49.880 at one point

00:18:51.980 during the

00:18:52.540 discussion with

00:18:53.180 this journalist

00:18:53.760 that societies

00:18:55.840 all around the

00:18:56.620 world,

00:18:58.140 and I thought

00:18:58.760 of this as a

00:18:59.340 universal

00:18:59.860 anthropological

00:19:00.920 truth and

00:19:01.500 something that

00:19:02.020 was well

00:19:02.460 established to

00:19:03.180 the point of

00:19:03.660 being self-evident,

00:19:04.680 but apparently

00:19:05.160 not,

00:19:05.580 a major

00:19:08.260 problem that

00:19:09.100 every society

00:19:09.780 faces is the

00:19:10.960 control of

00:19:12.180 aggression by

00:19:13.520 young men in

00:19:14.260 particular and

00:19:14.920 generally as a

00:19:15.620 consequence of

00:19:16.300 sexual jealousy

00:19:17.780 and striving.

00:19:18.860 And the

00:19:19.720 universal answer

00:19:20.980 to that,

00:19:21.900 insofar as

00:19:22.540 there is one,

00:19:24.040 was the

00:19:24.860 development of

00:19:26.360 monogamous

00:19:26.960 norms and

00:19:28.420 social enforcement

00:19:29.400 of those norms.

00:19:30.380 And, you know,

00:19:31.120 you just

00:19:32.620 described it in

00:19:33.760 some sense as

00:19:34.560 inhibition and

00:19:35.600 control, but

00:19:36.340 I think it's

00:19:37.920 also useful

00:19:38.760 to think about

00:19:40.720 it as

00:19:41.140 integration and

00:19:42.420 into a more

00:19:43.400 sophisticated game.

00:19:46.240 You know,

00:19:46.960 being in a

00:19:47.780 marriage obviously

00:19:48.620 does involve not

00:19:49.800 chasing after

00:19:51.760 other people

00:19:52.400 sexually,

00:19:53.400 but it

00:19:55.140 isn't all

00:19:55.620 inhibitory.

00:19:56.720 Within the

00:19:57.180 marriage,

00:19:58.040 something

00:19:58.460 sophisticated and

00:19:59.620 hopefully wonderful

00:20:01.080 in the long

00:20:02.520 term is

00:20:03.080 supposed to

00:20:03.520 occur as

00:20:04.680 a preferable

00:20:06.880 substitute,

00:20:09.500 and I mean

00:20:10.040 preferable if

00:20:10.840 it's done

00:20:11.240 properly, to

00:20:12.440 the short-term

00:20:13.200 gratification that

00:20:14.200 might be obtained

00:20:15.560 by serial

00:20:17.100 relationships,

00:20:18.000 say, or

00:20:18.740 sporadic

00:20:19.300 relationships,

00:20:19.960 because they're

00:20:20.640 actually very

00:20:21.700 difficult and

00:20:22.400 they also

00:20:22.800 produce these

00:20:23.380 violent outcomes

00:20:24.140 that you

00:20:24.500 described.

00:20:24.960 I was

00:20:25.920 pellered for

00:20:26.780 that in

00:20:27.520 quite a

00:20:28.000 remarkable

00:20:28.380 way.

00:20:29.340 Claims were

00:20:29.780 made that I

00:20:30.580 was making

00:20:32.540 the claim that

00:20:33.440 governments

00:20:34.360 should hand

00:20:38.800 over unwilling

00:20:39.820 women to

00:20:40.640 undesirable

00:20:42.020 monogamous

00:20:43.280 men or

00:20:44.140 undesirable men

00:20:45.040 just to

00:20:45.560 enforce monogamy,

00:20:46.500 but really what I

00:20:47.120 meant was,

00:20:47.760 well, one of

00:20:49.500 the reasons for

00:20:50.180 marriage, apart

00:20:50.880 from the fact

00:20:51.480 that two

00:20:51.880 parent families

00:20:53.200 are clearly

00:20:54.080 much better

00:20:54.860 for children

00:20:55.500 with the

00:20:56.540 father there,

00:20:57.540 is that

00:20:58.120 societies that

00:20:59.200 allow unregulated

00:21:00.440 polygamy or

00:21:01.180 that degenerate

00:21:02.180 into that are

00:21:02.980 invariably rife

00:21:04.220 with extraordinarily

00:21:06.040 high levels of

00:21:06.980 violence.

00:21:08.860 Yes, well,

00:21:09.820 that's what I

00:21:11.180 saw.

00:21:12.160 Now, of

00:21:14.020 course, the

00:21:15.160 destruction of

00:21:17.740 the idea of

00:21:19.080 the family as

00:21:22.820 we once

00:21:23.900 knew it has

00:21:24.760 been a long

00:21:25.380 process,

00:21:26.620 started, I

00:21:27.720 think, by

00:21:28.140 intellectuals,

00:21:29.060 literary

00:21:29.380 intellectuals,

00:21:30.540 and it's

00:21:31.420 perfectly true

00:21:32.260 that a bad

00:21:33.000 marriage from

00:21:33.780 which you

00:21:34.160 can't escape

00:21:34.980 is hell.

00:21:36.480 I mean, it's

00:21:36.940 a kind of

00:21:37.540 concentrated

00:21:38.500 hell, and

00:21:42.340 marriage is

00:21:44.000 not easy.

00:21:44.660 so people

00:21:49.280 thought, well,

00:21:50.980 I think this

00:21:51.700 is my

00:21:52.360 explanation,

00:21:53.220 they thought

00:21:53.780 that if

00:21:55.240 we could get

00:21:57.800 rid of all

00:21:58.700 the inhibitions

00:21:59.740 and restraints

00:22:00.980 and frustrations,

00:22:02.340 because there are

00:22:03.000 frustrations,

00:22:04.700 then the full

00:22:07.060 beauty of the

00:22:07.820 human personality

00:22:09.040 would emerge,

00:22:09.900 and we

00:22:10.860 would associate

00:22:12.220 with one

00:22:12.820 another just

00:22:14.320 by love

00:22:15.320 and nothing

00:22:16.580 else, and

00:22:17.080 when love

00:22:17.580 was over,

00:22:18.300 then you

00:22:18.680 just go

00:22:22.360 on to

00:22:22.660 something else,

00:22:23.680 somebody else.

00:22:25.640 But this is

00:22:26.520 actually a

00:22:27.840 very shallow

00:22:28.560 view of

00:22:29.680 things, apart

00:22:30.580 from anything

00:22:31.120 else.

00:22:32.200 In a marriage,

00:22:33.240 if there are

00:22:34.640 difficulties in

00:22:35.540 the way of

00:22:36.200 ending a

00:22:36.780 marriage, this

00:22:38.160 gives you

00:22:39.220 actual

00:22:39.940 incentives to

00:22:41.320 make it

00:22:42.200 work.

00:22:43.720 It also

00:22:44.660 tells you that

00:22:45.700 society values

00:22:46.840 what you're

00:22:47.280 doing, which

00:22:48.580 helps you

00:22:49.200 continue to

00:22:49.940 value it, which

00:22:51.120 makes you

00:22:51.700 more likely to

00:22:53.840 stick with it

00:22:54.440 during periods

00:22:55.140 of doubt.

00:22:55.860 I mean,

00:22:56.280 obviously, life

00:22:57.960 is extraordinarily

00:22:58.700 difficult, and

00:22:59.680 just on its

00:23:00.560 own, and it's

00:23:02.060 certainly no

00:23:02.520 easier if you're

00:23:03.220 alone, that's

00:23:03.940 for sure.

00:23:04.880 And so life is

00:23:05.640 difficult when you

00:23:06.360 have a partner.

00:23:07.040 And because of

00:23:08.380 that difficulty,

00:23:09.960 but not because

00:23:11.000 of anything

00:23:11.480 necessarily

00:23:12.080 intrinsic to

00:23:12.880 the state of

00:23:13.440 marriage itself,

00:23:14.440 you need social

00:23:15.660 institutions to

00:23:16.660 buttress the

00:23:17.660 structure so

00:23:18.540 that all of

00:23:19.900 the weight

00:23:20.280 doesn't fall on

00:23:21.180 those individuals

00:23:21.900 alone.

00:23:22.700 You know, I

00:23:23.000 mean, I've

00:23:23.480 had clients in

00:23:24.340 my practice who

00:23:25.120 are living

00:23:25.480 together, and

00:23:26.760 you know, when

00:23:27.820 I ask them why

00:23:28.460 they don't get

00:23:28.940 married, the

00:23:29.540 man often will

00:23:30.460 say, well, we

00:23:30.960 don't need a

00:23:31.760 piece of paper

00:23:32.620 to signify our

00:23:33.760 commitment.

00:23:34.420 And I think,

00:23:35.980 first, I've

00:23:36.820 heard that 20

00:23:37.460 times, and you

00:23:38.140 might think that's

00:23:38.780 a philosophy, but

00:23:39.440 it's actually a

00:23:40.100 pretty stunningly

00:23:41.620 shallow cliche.

00:23:43.300 And second, we're

00:23:45.100 not talking about a

00:23:45.960 piece of paper

00:23:46.580 here.

00:23:47.080 We're actually

00:23:47.800 talking about

00:23:48.540 something serious.

00:23:49.620 You stand up in

00:23:50.620 front of your

00:23:51.160 family, your

00:23:52.160 peers, your

00:23:53.260 friends, the

00:23:54.260 people that love

00:23:54.980 you, the people

00:23:55.880 that you want to

00:23:56.480 spend time with,

00:23:57.700 hypothetically, for

00:23:58.620 the rest of your

00:23:59.180 life, that you're

00:24:00.080 going to depend on,

00:24:01.200 that are going to

00:24:01.820 depend on you, and

00:24:03.180 you say, look, this

00:24:04.920 is important, I want

00:24:06.380 you to recognize

00:24:07.080 it, we're now

00:24:08.100 one thing, we're

00:24:09.360 going to give it

00:24:09.800 our best shot, and

00:24:11.160 it would be nice if

00:24:12.040 you support us.

00:24:13.200 And that's not

00:24:13.780 trivial, it's vital,

00:24:15.840 and that's still

00:24:17.060 why I think marriage

00:24:19.800 may be less

00:24:20.940 frequent, especially

00:24:21.780 among the lower

00:24:22.520 classes, than it

00:24:23.520 once was, although

00:24:24.860 cohabiting isn't, or

00:24:26.760 perhaps it is as

00:24:27.700 well, but romance

00:24:29.980 movies that feature a

00:24:31.460 wedding are certainly

00:24:32.520 not any less popular,

00:24:33.860 and marriage is still

00:24:35.000 just as popular

00:24:36.020 among the upper

00:24:36.700 classes, which is

00:24:37.940 something you also

00:24:38.740 discuss in books

00:24:39.680 like The Mandarins

00:24:42.440 and the Masses, for

00:24:43.500 example.

00:24:44.060 You're not very

00:24:44.700 happy with these

00:24:46.380 philosophical discussions

00:24:48.180 of freedom conducted

00:24:49.260 by people, say, like

00:24:50.340 Jean-Paul Sartre, and

00:24:51.780 the absolutely

00:24:52.480 catastrophic consequences

00:24:54.040 of that unbridled

00:24:55.180 thinking on people who

00:24:56.480 are at the bottom of

00:24:57.340 the hierarchy.

00:24:58.940 Yes.

00:24:59.500 With regard to the

00:25:01.940 piece of paper

00:25:02.980 business, I remember

00:25:04.320 I had a patient

00:25:05.520 who had, and she

00:25:08.140 was not a foolish

00:25:09.360 woman, had

00:25:10.600 tried to kill

00:25:12.660 herself, eventually

00:25:13.540 unfortunately did

00:25:14.620 kill herself.

00:25:16.340 She wanted very

00:25:17.500 much a man to

00:25:18.540 marry her, and the

00:25:21.540 man didn't want to

00:25:22.500 marry her, but he

00:25:23.280 wanted to cohabit

00:25:24.740 with her.

00:25:25.240 And I remember

00:25:26.820 him saying to

00:25:27.720 me, I don't

00:25:29.220 see what she's

00:25:32.400 worried about.

00:25:34.220 It's only a piece

00:25:35.200 of paper.

00:25:36.000 And I said, well, if

00:25:36.880 it's only a piece of

00:25:37.760 paper, why don't you

00:25:38.740 sign it?

00:25:40.560 Because it's only a

00:25:41.740 piece of paper either

00:25:42.820 way.

00:25:43.800 So obviously, this

00:25:45.620 revealed that it

00:25:46.580 wasn't only a piece

00:25:47.560 of paper.

00:25:48.400 It was a commitment

00:25:49.420 which he was

00:25:50.220 unwilling or for

00:25:51.380 some reason to

00:25:53.420 make.

00:25:53.820 He had personal

00:25:55.020 commitment.

00:25:55.200 Well, there's

00:25:55.780 also the question

00:25:57.400 of, well, what

00:25:58.860 is the basis of

00:26:00.500 your relationship

00:26:01.400 if it isn't

00:26:02.120 actually a

00:26:03.100 formally recognized

00:26:06.420 permanent commitment?

00:26:07.600 Say you're

00:26:08.020 cohabiting with

00:26:08.720 someone.

00:26:09.300 Think in Canada,

00:26:10.220 it's six months

00:26:10.940 and it's basically

00:26:11.620 common law

00:26:12.200 marriage.

00:26:13.280 So what is it?

00:26:14.980 Is we're going to

00:26:15.700 hang around with

00:26:16.220 each other until

00:26:16.820 one of us finds

00:26:17.440 someone better, but

00:26:18.440 you'll do for

00:26:19.080 now?

00:26:19.800 Is that the...

00:26:20.660 Like, I don't

00:26:21.020 know what...

00:26:21.320 Well, yes, I

00:26:22.120 think it's...

00:26:23.520 Particularly with

00:26:24.680 men, I

00:26:25.700 think, they don't

00:26:29.120 want to close

00:26:29.840 off all

00:26:30.320 possibilities.

00:26:32.340 They think, you

00:26:33.200 see, they think

00:26:33.760 that having an

00:26:36.700 infinite choice is

00:26:38.600 actually not

00:26:39.240 committing to

00:26:40.100 anything, which

00:26:43.240 of course is a

00:26:43.880 mistake.

00:26:44.860 And what do you

00:26:45.440 think it is

00:26:45.960 committing to?

00:26:47.840 Which...

00:26:48.780 The...

00:26:48.960 The hypothetical

00:26:51.560 continual choice.

00:26:54.440 That is just

00:26:55.760 they hope to

00:26:57.160 be able to

00:26:58.660 continue a

00:27:00.680 life of

00:27:01.580 pleasure and

00:27:04.160 sensation.

00:27:07.400 I think that's

00:27:08.940 about it.

00:27:11.120 And they don't

00:27:12.200 want to...

00:27:12.960 they have a

00:27:14.860 kind of

00:27:15.240 anti-romantic

00:27:16.740 idea of...

00:27:19.400 of love.

00:27:23.980 So do you

00:27:24.780 think that the

00:27:25.360 intellectuals that

00:27:26.540 were actively

00:27:27.240 engaged in the

00:27:28.420 destruction of

00:27:29.300 traditional structures

00:27:30.240 or in the

00:27:30.580 criticism of

00:27:31.300 traditional structures

00:27:32.200 were just so

00:27:33.100 well protected by

00:27:34.920 the fact of

00:27:35.900 those structures

00:27:36.560 that they were

00:27:37.320 only able to

00:27:38.480 see the residual

00:27:39.480 problems?

00:27:40.280 I think that

00:27:41.800 was it, yes.

00:27:42.860 And of course

00:27:43.280 they were also

00:27:43.860 protected economically

00:27:45.080 because economics

00:27:46.340 does make a big

00:27:47.160 difference here.

00:27:48.620 I mean, it's...

00:27:49.540 I know that

00:27:50.640 in practice

00:27:52.480 the upper

00:27:53.440 classes

00:27:54.000 at least

00:27:56.540 they preserve

00:27:59.380 their hypocrisy.

00:28:00.600 If they break

00:28:01.760 the rules, they

00:28:02.620 at least pretend

00:28:03.560 not to be

00:28:04.200 breaking...

00:28:04.760 or try to

00:28:05.340 pretend not to

00:28:06.000 be breaking

00:28:06.440 the rules

00:28:06.940 on the whole.

00:28:09.000 But they are

00:28:09.880 protected from

00:28:10.780 consequences of

00:28:11.980 breakdown to

00:28:12.960 some extent,

00:28:14.180 not completely

00:28:15.300 of course because

00:28:16.000 there's an emotional

00:28:16.760 aspect, but

00:28:18.180 money does make

00:28:20.220 a big difference.

00:28:21.080 But if you

00:28:21.560 have no money

00:28:22.820 and you have

00:28:25.600 no support

00:28:26.920 or the only

00:28:27.660 support you have

00:28:28.620 is a rather

00:28:29.140 miserable support

00:28:30.100 of the state,

00:28:31.660 then the

00:28:33.540 consequences are

00:28:34.540 absolutely terrible.

00:28:35.780 and I saw

00:28:40.240 hundreds and

00:28:41.060 thousands of

00:28:41.740 cases.

00:28:43.640 So there's

00:28:44.540 increasing support

00:28:45.760 in the EU,

00:28:47.120 for example,

00:28:47.940 for schemes such

00:28:49.100 as a universal

00:28:49.800 basic income.

00:28:51.680 And, you know,

00:28:52.540 you just made

00:28:53.220 an argument

00:28:53.720 that at least

00:28:55.220 from one

00:28:55.700 perspective could

00:28:56.600 be viewed as

00:28:57.620 supportive of a

00:28:59.160 scheme like that

00:29:00.000 given that

00:29:01.000 if you have

00:29:03.480 a dearth of

00:29:04.620 material resources,

00:29:05.660 a dearth of

00:29:06.120 money, you're

00:29:07.040 much more

00:29:07.560 vulnerable to

00:29:08.480 catastrophe.

00:29:10.000 And so you

00:29:10.460 might think,

00:29:11.040 well, if we

00:29:12.060 grant people a

00:29:12.920 minimum basic

00:29:13.580 income, that

00:29:14.780 eradicates that

00:29:16.360 problem.

00:29:16.900 but you also

00:29:18.380 tie the

00:29:19.460 degeneration

00:29:20.340 that you

00:29:21.040 saw, which

00:29:22.420 I want to

00:29:22.860 talk about

00:29:23.460 more, to

00:29:25.220 the rise of

00:29:25.900 the welfare

00:29:26.340 state.

00:29:27.740 And so, and

00:29:28.800 one of the

00:29:29.340 things that, and

00:29:30.660 I think this is

00:29:31.280 because of my

00:29:31.800 clinical experience,

00:29:32.920 it isn't clear

00:29:34.260 to me that

00:29:35.140 giving people

00:29:37.360 money actually

00:29:38.620 solves the

00:29:39.460 problem of

00:29:40.160 poverty.

00:29:41.940 Because poverty

00:29:43.220 is very much

00:29:44.240 more complex

00:29:44.920 than the mere

00:29:45.760 lack of money,

00:29:46.540 even though

00:29:47.040 that's certainly

00:29:47.880 a cardinal

00:29:48.620 element of

00:29:49.220 poverty.

00:29:50.380 And that's

00:29:51.220 the other

00:29:51.540 thing I would

00:29:52.220 say, or

00:29:52.620 another thing

00:29:53.200 that you

00:29:53.620 pushed at

00:29:54.380 constantly in

00:29:55.640 your writings,

00:29:56.260 is that there's

00:29:57.880 an entire

00:29:58.520 worldview that

00:30:00.080 is associated

00:30:01.060 with violent

00:30:01.920 and catastrophic

00:30:03.120 poverty.

00:30:04.520 And that's

00:30:06.760 not precisely

00:30:07.520 an economic

00:30:08.200 issue, even

00:30:08.840 though economic

00:30:09.440 issues might

00:30:10.040 exaggerate its

00:30:10.940 danger.

00:30:11.900 So tell us

00:30:12.760 some stories

00:30:13.400 and tell us

00:30:14.480 what you

00:30:14.800 concluded from

00:30:15.740 from what

00:30:16.240 you watched.

00:30:18.080 Well, I

00:30:19.740 concluded that

00:30:20.900 we had

00:30:21.560 created quite

00:30:23.360 a lot of

00:30:24.000 people who

00:30:24.980 had nothing

00:30:26.040 to hope for

00:30:27.200 and nothing

00:30:28.180 to fear,

00:30:28.920 perceive of a

00:30:29.440 life different

00:30:30.020 from the

00:30:31.520 life they

00:30:32.020 had.

00:30:32.580 Going to

00:30:33.000 work wouldn't

00:30:33.640 make much

00:30:34.300 difference to

00:30:34.900 them economically,

00:30:36.760 as failing to

00:30:40.420 go to work

00:30:41.060 would not

00:30:44.180 make much

00:30:44.800 difference to

00:30:45.600 them.

00:30:47.060 This isn't

00:30:47.720 actually a

00:30:49.380 necessary aspect

00:30:51.020 of the

00:30:51.720 welfare state.

00:30:53.640 After all,

00:30:54.300 Britain was

00:30:54.900 far worse in

00:30:55.880 these respects

00:30:57.800 than other

00:31:00.300 countries which

00:31:01.180 have welfare

00:31:01.960 states, in some

00:31:02.760 cases more

00:31:03.360 generous than

00:31:03.940 the British

00:31:04.320 welfare state.

00:31:06.200 But the

00:31:07.180 British welfare

00:31:08.080 state created

00:31:10.000 people, a

00:31:10.740 class of

00:31:11.200 people, who

00:31:12.440 were permanently

00:31:14.320 in this

00:31:15.220 condition and

00:31:17.220 had no real

00:31:18.260 incentive to

00:31:19.080 get out of

00:31:19.640 it.

00:31:24.280 So this

00:31:27.340 created a

00:31:28.040 kind of, it

00:31:29.840 created sometimes

00:31:30.780 lassitude, but

00:31:32.080 it was also

00:31:32.740 dishonest.

00:31:33.900 It created a

00:31:34.820 kind of

00:31:35.240 dishonesty, because

00:31:36.780 actually the

00:31:38.880 more problems

00:31:39.560 they made for

00:31:40.240 themselves, the

00:31:41.660 more they were

00:31:42.380 rewarded.

00:31:45.100 I remember

00:31:46.140 we had a

00:31:48.340 peculiar

00:31:48.860 demoralization

00:31:51.420 of the world.

00:31:52.140 I don't mean

00:31:52.660 actual removal

00:31:56.960 of morality

00:31:57.760 from all

00:31:58.700 human

00:31:59.220 consideration.

00:32:00.580 I remember

00:32:01.240 once I

00:32:02.960 had a

00:32:03.340 patient with

00:32:04.640 multiple

00:32:07.200 sclerosis, and

00:32:09.280 her husband

00:32:09.980 worked, but

00:32:10.860 he didn't

00:32:11.260 earn a lot

00:32:11.740 of money, and

00:32:12.980 she had

00:32:13.560 multiple

00:32:14.020 sclerosis, which

00:32:14.780 was clearly

00:32:15.340 not her fault,

00:32:17.240 and they

00:32:18.660 needed some

00:32:19.260 adjustments to

00:32:20.280 their house, so

00:32:21.940 that she could

00:32:22.800 get out of the

00:32:24.140 house more

00:32:24.640 easily, and

00:32:25.520 so on.

00:32:27.000 And it

00:32:27.680 seemed to me

00:32:28.300 this, as

00:32:29.040 far as I'm

00:32:29.500 concerned, that's

00:32:30.260 a perfectly

00:32:30.740 good way to,

00:32:32.360 this is a

00:32:33.040 place where

00:32:33.680 the welfare

00:32:35.140 state could

00:32:35.920 actually help.

00:32:38.000 So I phoned

00:32:38.880 a social worker,

00:32:40.940 and I made a

00:32:42.020 great mistake.

00:32:43.380 I said, I

00:32:44.740 have a

00:32:45.160 particularly

00:32:45.760 deserving

00:32:46.580 case.

00:32:47.460 Oh, yes.

00:32:49.580 And there

00:32:50.340 was a stony

00:32:51.120 silence on the

00:32:52.040 other end, and

00:32:53.900 then she

00:32:55.140 said that all

00:32:56.640 cases were

00:32:57.340 deserving.

00:32:57.840 In other

00:32:58.660 words, you

00:32:59.480 couldn't

00:32:59.980 distinguish

00:33:00.640 between this

00:33:01.700 case of

00:33:02.840 need, which

00:33:03.740 was just

00:33:06.100 one of those

00:33:06.720 things, it

00:33:07.280 was nobody's

00:33:07.980 fault, and

00:33:10.180 someone who

00:33:11.800 took drugs,

00:33:14.600 set fire to

00:33:15.340 his house in

00:33:16.480 a state of

00:33:16.940 intoxication.

00:33:18.060 There was no

00:33:18.480 difference.

00:33:19.500 needy, and

00:33:21.680 since, of

00:33:22.460 course, people

00:33:23.720 who behave

00:33:24.360 badly become

00:33:25.420 more needy,

00:33:27.200 they actually

00:33:28.320 gain more

00:33:28.920 attention and

00:33:29.920 more sympathy.

00:33:32.000 That's if

00:33:32.640 you take

00:33:34.300 dessert away,

00:33:35.780 if you remove

00:33:36.680 dessert from

00:33:37.880 all

00:33:39.120 considerations.

00:33:42.180 And this

00:33:43.080 means that

00:33:43.780 actually one

00:33:44.620 source of

00:33:45.740 meaning in

00:33:46.740 life is

00:33:47.640 completely

00:33:48.300 removed.

00:33:49.960 And what

00:33:50.580 we saw

00:33:50.960 were these

00:33:51.360 people who

00:33:53.140 had no

00:33:54.000 religion.

00:33:54.280 That's the

00:33:55.300 case you're

00:33:55.680 making.

00:33:56.000 It's not

00:33:56.200 even just

00:33:56.660 removed, it's

00:33:57.420 actually

00:33:57.660 punished,

00:33:58.640 actively

00:33:59.040 punished, which

00:34:00.140 is even worse

00:34:00.840 than mere

00:34:01.340 removal.

00:34:02.560 And you

00:34:03.100 kind of

00:34:03.440 claim, I

00:34:03.920 think, and

00:34:04.360 correct me if

00:34:05.140 I'm wrong,

00:34:05.720 that there's a

00:34:07.020 perverse

00:34:07.520 attractiveness of

00:34:08.680 that to the

00:34:09.420 educated helping

00:34:10.600 classes in

00:34:11.560 producing a

00:34:12.560 group of

00:34:12.980 people who

00:34:16.000 are so much

00:34:16.820 beneath them

00:34:17.600 in some

00:34:18.020 sense that

00:34:18.640 normal moral

00:34:19.420 standards don't

00:34:20.360 anymore apply.

00:34:23.960 And what

00:34:24.600 that means, I

00:34:25.680 mean, if

00:34:26.000 that's the

00:34:26.420 case, that

00:34:27.000 perverse sense

00:34:28.140 of superiority

00:34:28.820 and the

00:34:29.600 moral gratification

00:34:30.480 that might

00:34:30.960 provide, if

00:34:32.280 that's the

00:34:32.720 case, then

00:34:33.360 people are

00:34:34.960 being actively

00:34:35.700 punished for

00:34:36.380 doing anything

00:34:37.240 that might

00:34:37.740 lift them out

00:34:38.360 of the

00:34:38.640 circumstances

00:34:39.220 that they

00:34:39.640 find themselves

00:34:40.360 in.

00:34:41.160 Yeah.

00:34:41.720 Well, I

00:34:42.380 think one

00:34:42.780 of the

00:34:43.040 things that

00:34:43.660 is clear

00:34:47.580 about the,

00:34:48.420 shall I

00:34:48.700 say, the

00:34:49.260 intellectual

00:34:50.040 classes is

00:34:50.940 one of their

00:34:51.440 greatest fears

00:34:52.420 is the

00:34:54.640 fear of

00:34:55.480 being considered

00:34:56.240 censorious.

00:34:58.880 And, of

00:34:59.600 course,

00:34:59.820 censoriousness

00:35:00.560 is not a

00:35:01.120 very attractive

00:35:01.700 quality.

00:35:03.520 So, and

00:35:05.660 the best way

00:35:06.880 to avoid being

00:35:08.280 considered censorious

00:35:09.300 is to fail

00:35:10.700 to make any

00:35:11.360 judgment,

00:35:12.000 whatever.

00:35:13.560 But this

00:35:14.240 is, this

00:35:14.980 is completely

00:35:15.660 impossible.

00:35:16.840 It's impossible

00:35:17.580 to not

00:35:20.380 to, to,

00:35:22.100 to make

00:35:23.900 judgments.

00:35:24.680 Judgment is

00:35:25.360 part of being

00:35:25.960 human.

00:35:27.720 Yeah, well,

00:35:28.100 you can't

00:35:28.580 perceive without

00:35:29.520 judging because

00:35:30.460 you have to

00:35:31.020 select the

00:35:31.760 thing you

00:35:32.260 should be

00:35:32.620 looking at

00:35:33.200 from everything

00:35:34.060 else you

00:35:34.580 might be

00:35:35.000 looking at.

00:35:35.600 So, every

00:35:36.060 act is

00:35:36.620 hierarchical and

00:35:37.620 implies a

00:35:38.400 value structure.

00:35:39.300 And a

00:35:39.860 choice, I

00:35:40.460 mean, choice

00:35:41.080 imposes the

00:35:42.240 necessity to

00:35:43.040 make judgments.

00:35:44.260 Now, if you

00:35:44.740 pretend that

00:35:45.540 you're not

00:35:46.020 making judgments,

00:35:47.300 then you are

00:35:48.280 actually facilitating

00:35:49.560 the worst

00:35:50.640 judgments.

00:35:52.880 So, but

00:35:54.280 as I said, I

00:35:55.000 think the

00:35:55.520 the

00:35:55.820 intellectuals

00:35:56.900 and I

00:35:58.400 mean, I

00:35:59.120 have this

00:36:00.520 fear myself

00:36:01.420 when I

00:36:01.860 wrote, I

00:36:02.340 thought, is

00:36:03.460 anyone going

00:36:04.080 to think

00:36:05.120 you are an

00:36:06.080 unfeeling

00:36:06.760 censorious

00:36:07.520 person,

00:36:08.500 because you,

00:36:09.940 I mean, after

00:36:10.480 all, I'm

00:36:10.860 comparatively

00:36:11.500 fortunate.

00:36:12.660 Here I am

00:36:13.300 coming into

00:36:13.880 the lives of

00:36:14.600 people who

00:36:15.520 are unfortunate.

00:36:18.420 Many of

00:36:18.820 them are

00:36:19.200 unfortunate.

00:36:20.120 There's no

00:36:20.520 question about

00:36:21.180 that.

00:36:21.600 Many of

00:36:22.020 them, you

00:36:22.480 know, they're

00:36:23.100 born in a

00:36:24.240 low social

00:36:26.200 class.

00:36:26.860 They've been

00:36:27.180 given an

00:36:27.720 extremely bad

00:36:28.740 education,

00:36:29.460 although it's

00:36:29.760 actually quite

00:36:30.360 a costly

00:36:30.780 education, but

00:36:31.920 it's extremely

00:36:32.580 bad, and so

00:36:34.480 on and so

00:36:35.000 forth.

00:36:35.340 And here

00:36:36.680 I am

00:36:37.140 coming in

00:36:38.420 and making

00:36:39.380 judgment,

00:36:41.360 saying, your

00:36:42.300 behavior is

00:36:45.000 what is

00:36:45.720 causing your

00:36:46.560 unhappiness.

00:36:48.600 It's at the

00:36:50.320 root of your

00:36:50.940 unhappiness.

00:36:52.320 And actually, I

00:36:53.220 tried to

00:36:53.680 demedicalize a

00:36:54.900 lot of their

00:36:55.780 unhappiness,

00:36:56.900 because I

00:36:58.980 didn't think

00:37:00.280 their unhappiness

00:37:01.120 was a medical

00:37:01.740 condition.

00:37:02.280 well, that

00:37:06.740 is the

00:37:07.140 danger with

00:37:07.980 judgment.

00:37:08.760 I mean, I

00:37:09.260 face this with

00:37:10.420 my clinical

00:37:10.900 clients constantly,

00:37:11.740 but also in

00:37:12.520 the case of

00:37:13.000 my daughter,

00:37:13.800 and in my

00:37:14.300 own life, for

00:37:14.900 that matter,

00:37:15.680 if you're

00:37:16.560 dealing with

00:37:17.040 someone who's

00:37:17.780 ill, it's

00:37:19.300 very difficult

00:37:19.980 to encourage,

00:37:23.920 and it's

00:37:24.620 very difficult

00:37:25.080 to discipline.

00:37:26.780 And by that,

00:37:27.780 I mean,

00:37:28.120 encourage and

00:37:28.900 instill

00:37:29.360 discipline, which

00:37:30.100 is something

00:37:30.480 that you want

00:37:31.100 to do if

00:37:31.500 you're a

00:37:31.780 parent, if

00:37:32.800 your child

00:37:33.240 is ill, it's

00:37:35.620 very difficult

00:37:36.140 to tell when

00:37:37.480 the illness is

00:37:39.100 sufficient reason

00:37:40.000 so that

00:37:40.520 something isn't

00:37:41.160 being done.

00:37:43.100 Right?

00:37:43.720 And so when

00:37:44.180 you're dealing

00:37:44.560 with dispossessed

00:37:45.380 people, you

00:37:45.960 have the same

00:37:46.460 problem.

00:37:47.720 Yeah.

00:37:48.020 Well, judgment

00:37:48.720 is always

00:37:49.340 fallible.

00:37:50.240 So I would

00:37:51.120 never say that

00:37:52.040 I had never

00:37:52.720 made any

00:37:53.480 mistakes in

00:37:54.760 my judgment.

00:37:56.400 You know,

00:37:56.780 sometimes I

00:37:57.920 would be too

00:37:58.960 harsh, maybe,

00:37:59.980 and sometimes I

00:38:01.600 wouldn't be

00:38:02.340 hard enough.

00:38:04.540 But the, I

00:38:04.900 mean, that's

00:38:07.920 just a

00:38:08.780 consequence of

00:38:09.840 not having

00:38:11.720 enough knowledge

00:38:12.500 and so on

00:38:13.080 and so forth.

00:38:14.180 But to

00:38:14.920 pretend you're

00:38:15.620 not making

00:38:16.280 a judgment

00:38:16.860 is itself a

00:38:19.240 judgment.

00:38:19.880 I mean, you're

00:38:20.240 judging that

00:38:20.960 you shouldn't

00:38:22.300 make judgments.

00:38:23.700 It's also the

00:38:24.440 abdication of

00:38:25.280 responsibility.

00:38:26.260 I mean, I

00:38:26.540 thought this

00:38:27.040 through with

00:38:27.960 my clinical

00:38:28.460 clients at

00:38:29.520 sort of a

00:38:30.240 technical level

00:38:31.220 too.

00:38:31.640 I learned a

00:38:33.160 lot from

00:38:33.560 reading Carl

00:38:34.220 Rogers.

00:38:35.780 And I

00:38:36.600 would say a

00:38:37.240 certain amount

00:38:37.920 of unthinking

00:38:38.840 sentimentality can

00:38:40.560 be laid at his

00:38:41.320 feet in the

00:38:41.960 clinical and

00:38:42.540 social work

00:38:43.120 world, partly

00:38:43.760 because he

00:38:44.360 proposed that

00:38:45.260 unconditional

00:38:46.440 positive regard

00:38:47.740 for his

00:38:49.120 clients was the

00:38:50.060 appropriate

00:38:50.600 pathway forward.

00:38:52.120 And his

00:38:54.180 critics pointed

00:38:54.980 out that if

00:38:55.940 you watched

00:38:56.600 Carl Rogers

00:38:57.340 in action,

00:38:58.980 what he was

00:38:59.800 practicing

00:39:01.180 involved careful

00:39:02.860 discrimination.

00:39:05.300 But what he

00:39:07.100 meant was

00:39:07.820 something like

00:39:09.100 accept that

00:39:11.240 the person is

00:39:12.220 of fundamental

00:39:12.980 value and

00:39:14.420 has the

00:39:14.900 capacity to

00:39:16.100 move towards

00:39:16.860 the light,

00:39:17.560 let's say,

00:39:18.160 and work in

00:39:18.880 that vein.

00:39:19.420 But what I

00:39:20.440 would tell my

00:39:21.120 clients, and

00:39:22.100 this was a

00:39:23.160 consequence of

00:39:24.040 my realization

00:39:25.420 that judgment

00:39:26.400 was not only

00:39:27.060 necessary but

00:39:27.880 crucially important

00:39:29.020 to forward

00:39:30.080 movement, was

00:39:30.880 that I'm not

00:39:33.700 offering you

00:39:34.480 unconditional

00:39:35.000 positive regard.

00:39:36.120 I'm on the

00:39:36.940 side of the

00:39:37.560 part of you

00:39:38.040 that wants

00:39:38.580 things to be

00:39:39.280 better.

00:39:40.500 And I'm

00:39:41.540 going to help

00:39:42.240 you discriminate

00:39:43.040 between the

00:39:43.740 part of you

00:39:44.160 that doesn't

00:39:44.700 want things to

00:39:45.340 be better,

00:39:45.860 that might even

00:39:46.440 want them to

00:39:47.020 be actively

00:39:47.680 worse for all

00:39:48.620 sorts of

00:39:49.020 reasons that

00:39:49.540 all people are

00:39:50.480 prey to, and

00:39:51.560 the part of

00:39:52.040 you that is

00:39:52.500 striving to

00:39:53.360 make everything

00:39:53.960 better.

00:39:54.360 And we'll

00:39:54.640 discuss what

00:39:55.400 better means,

00:39:56.080 and we'll

00:39:56.460 negotiate the

00:39:57.820 strategies, but

00:39:58.640 let's make it

00:39:59.520 clear, this

00:40:00.200 enterprise is to

00:40:01.300 get rid of what

00:40:02.100 is undesirable, and

00:40:03.720 to foster what is

00:40:04.660 desirable, and to

00:40:05.580 critically distinguish

00:40:07.320 between those two,

00:40:08.440 which is absolutely

00:40:09.500 vital.

00:40:10.300 You can throw your

00:40:11.000 hands up and say,

00:40:11.880 I'm not going to be

00:40:12.680 judgmental, but

00:40:13.520 all that, that

00:40:15.160 means you're not

00:40:15.860 distinguishing between

00:40:16.840 what's good and

00:40:17.620 what isn't.

00:40:18.220 Well, I think

00:40:19.700 what I tried to

00:40:22.320 get at with

00:40:23.540 patients was, if

00:40:25.360 you like, our

00:40:26.800 existential

00:40:27.580 equality, that

00:40:31.060 I made choices,

00:40:32.460 but they made

00:40:33.000 choices too.

00:40:33.980 Of course, there

00:40:34.900 are conditions

00:40:36.900 where that is

00:40:38.600 not so, and

00:40:39.420 you have to

00:40:39.860 make the

00:40:40.240 distinction between

00:40:41.400 those cases where

00:40:42.800 people really do

00:40:43.820 not have any

00:40:45.600 capability.

00:40:46.100 I mean, there

00:40:46.560 are such cases,

00:40:47.520 of course, but

00:40:48.800 in the prison, for

00:40:49.740 example, one

00:40:51.900 thing that made

00:40:52.980 me a little bit

00:40:53.660 optimistic was that

00:40:54.700 I never said

00:40:55.360 anything in my

00:40:56.920 articles that I

00:40:57.720 didn't actually say

00:40:58.500 to the patients,

00:40:59.800 and the patients

00:41:01.220 understood on the

00:41:03.440 whole.

00:41:03.800 I mean, there

00:41:04.100 were a few in

00:41:05.300 the prison who I

00:41:06.520 think were not

00:41:08.520 reachable by this

00:41:09.980 kind of

00:41:10.820 argumentation, but

00:41:12.080 for example, I

00:41:12.880 would not, I, in

00:41:15.520 the prison, I

00:41:17.020 said I would

00:41:19.200 not allow the

00:41:19.900 prisoners to

00:41:21.380 swear in front of

00:41:22.300 me, and I had

00:41:25.680 no means of

00:41:26.380 stopping them, of

00:41:27.100 course, and if

00:41:27.640 they continued, I

00:41:28.560 couldn't refuse to

00:41:29.520 treat them on the

00:41:30.660 grounds that they

00:41:31.280 had sworn in front

00:41:32.080 of me, but I did

00:41:32.980 actually stop them,

00:41:34.480 and I mean...

00:41:36.480 So why do you

00:41:37.440 think they stopped?

00:41:38.420 Ah, well, I

00:41:41.460 provided an

00:41:43.360 argument.

00:41:44.140 I don't know

00:41:44.800 whether one is

00:41:45.380 allowed to use bad

00:41:46.420 language on your

00:41:47.220 podcast.

00:41:48.020 You can, anything

00:41:48.800 you have to say

00:41:49.700 that you think is

00:41:50.420 necessary, you're

00:41:51.380 free to say.

00:41:53.120 Okay.

00:41:54.000 Well, a patient

00:41:54.700 would, in the

00:41:55.380 prison, would

00:41:55.820 come in and say,

00:41:57.000 I've got this

00:41:57.840 fucking headache.

00:41:59.340 So I would say,

00:42:00.640 well, before we go

00:42:01.320 any further, can

00:42:02.160 you tell me the

00:42:02.720 difference between

00:42:03.280 a headache and a

00:42:04.120 fucking headache?

00:42:05.840 Tell me the

00:42:06.580 difference.

00:42:07.000 And he would

00:42:08.740 say, well, that's

00:42:10.840 how I speak.

00:42:11.900 And I say, yes,

00:42:13.660 that's what I'm

00:42:14.260 complaining of.

00:42:15.840 And he said,

00:42:18.660 well, why

00:42:19.000 shouldn't I?

00:42:21.640 Why shouldn't I

00:42:22.520 speak like this?

00:42:23.120 Because that's me,

00:42:24.060 you know.

00:42:24.380 And I said, well,

00:42:25.340 supposing at the

00:42:26.160 end of this

00:42:27.020 consultation, I say

00:42:28.680 to you, now, here's

00:42:29.700 some fucking pills.

00:42:31.120 Take two of the

00:42:31.720 fucking hours every

00:42:32.800 four fucking hours.

00:42:34.380 And if I don't

00:42:34.900 fucking work,

00:42:36.040 fucking come back

00:42:36.860 and I'll give you

00:42:37.340 some other

00:42:37.780 fuckers.

00:42:40.020 You'd find this a

00:42:41.420 bit strange,

00:42:42.280 wouldn't you?

00:42:44.240 So he said,

00:42:45.260 yes.

00:42:47.020 So I said, well,

00:42:47.720 we're equal.

00:42:49.000 I don't talk to

00:42:50.020 you like that and

00:42:50.920 you don't talk to

00:42:51.720 me like that.

00:42:53.680 And they just

00:42:54.760 stopped.

00:42:55.380 And you meant

00:42:55.880 that.

00:42:57.740 What?

00:42:58.380 That?

00:42:58.640 You meant that.

00:42:59.440 I meant that,

00:43:00.240 yes.

00:43:00.420 Yeah, right.

00:43:01.020 Well, that's so,

00:43:02.040 you know,

00:43:02.420 so you're

00:43:04.300 complimenting,

00:43:05.040 you're complimenting

00:43:06.120 your client

00:43:06.720 instantly.

00:43:07.800 You're saying,

00:43:08.540 look, you know,

00:43:09.040 we're engaged in a

00:43:09.960 serious enterprise

00:43:10.660 here and I

00:43:11.140 actually care about

00:43:11.940 it.

00:43:12.180 And maybe we

00:43:13.060 should attend to

00:43:13.800 the words we're

00:43:14.420 using.

00:43:15.060 You too.

00:43:15.640 Or we're just

00:43:16.220 playing.

00:43:16.980 And I actually

00:43:17.720 care about you

00:43:18.460 getting better.

00:43:19.580 So how about we

00:43:20.440 watch our language?

00:43:21.980 I'll do it.

00:43:22.660 You do it.

00:43:23.260 And, you know,

00:43:24.240 you can do it.

00:43:25.020 And so,

00:43:26.940 yes,

00:43:27.240 people are going

00:43:27.760 to agree to that.

00:43:28.880 I used to have a

00:43:30.540 good laugh sometimes.

00:43:32.180 I remember the law

00:43:33.640 was that every

00:43:34.460 prisoner had to be

00:43:35.680 examined medically

00:43:36.440 within 24 hours of

00:43:38.620 being received into

00:43:39.660 the prison.

00:43:40.360 And in practice,

00:43:41.280 it was usually

00:43:42.160 within two hours of

00:43:43.420 being received in

00:43:44.160 prison.

00:43:44.760 And I used to do

00:43:45.800 these,

00:43:46.260 I used to do

00:43:48.620 these examinations

00:43:52.060 and one prisoner

00:43:53.280 said he wanted

00:43:54.300 his medicine.

00:43:55.400 And I didn't

00:43:56.100 think he should

00:43:56.640 have what he

00:43:57.960 was, he alleged

00:43:59.060 he was taking.

00:43:59.680 I had no idea

00:44:00.420 whether he was

00:44:01.120 taking it or not.

00:44:02.260 And I said,

00:44:03.060 I see no medical

00:44:03.880 indication for him.

00:44:05.820 And he started

00:44:06.680 screaming.

00:44:07.780 He said,

00:44:08.420 you murderer.

00:44:10.520 He said,

00:44:11.120 you're a murderer.

00:44:15.880 You're not a

00:44:16.600 doctor.

00:44:16.960 You're a murderer.

00:44:17.900 And of course,

00:44:18.460 this was a

00:44:19.100 Victorian prison

00:44:19.940 with ironwork

00:44:22.420 and everything.

00:44:23.000 So it was

00:44:23.360 echoing all

00:44:24.400 through this

00:44:25.460 enormous building.

00:44:28.460 And anyway,

00:44:29.560 in the end,

00:44:30.060 I said,

00:44:30.400 well, that's

00:44:30.780 enough.

00:44:31.080 You have to

00:44:31.460 go now.

00:44:32.840 And so he

00:44:34.240 went and

00:44:34.980 screaming still.

00:44:37.260 And then the

00:44:39.220 next day I saw

00:44:40.020 him and he

00:44:41.220 came up to me

00:44:41.840 and he

00:44:42.240 apologized.

00:44:43.960 And he said,

00:44:46.460 I was bang

00:44:48.040 out of order.

00:44:48.820 That was his

00:44:49.260 expression.

00:44:49.880 I was bang

00:44:50.300 out of order.

00:44:50.960 I'm sorry,

00:44:51.420 doctor.

00:44:51.640 I said,

00:44:52.020 oh, never

00:44:52.460 mind.

00:44:52.840 I said,

00:44:53.240 I've been

00:44:53.700 called far

00:44:54.460 worse than

00:44:55.120 that.

00:44:57.300 And then I

00:44:58.560 said,

00:44:58.980 actually,

00:44:59.800 you had a

00:45:01.660 wonderful effect

00:45:02.640 on the other

00:45:03.220 prisoners whom

00:45:04.300 I was examining

00:45:05.920 because they were

00:45:07.060 like lambs when

00:45:08.320 they came in.

00:45:10.320 And I said,

00:45:14.320 you couldn't come

00:45:14.920 and do it again

00:45:15.720 this evening,

00:45:16.560 could you?

00:45:17.140 come in and

00:45:19.540 call me a

00:45:20.340 murderer.

00:45:20.980 So we had a

00:45:21.680 good laugh.

00:45:24.160 But on the

00:45:26.500 other hand,

00:45:26.920 of course,

00:45:27.320 what I was

00:45:27.940 saying is that

00:45:28.740 you can control

00:45:29.600 yourself.

00:45:30.300 It's not...

00:45:31.560 Well,

00:45:31.820 that's a

00:45:32.420 compliment.

00:45:33.940 It's a

00:45:34.260 compliment.

00:45:34.860 And it might

00:45:35.360 be the first

00:45:35.900 time that some

00:45:36.600 of these people

00:45:37.180 had been

00:45:37.540 complimented in

00:45:38.360 that way.

00:45:40.200 Well,

00:45:40.400 yes.

00:45:40.740 I mean,

00:45:40.960 unfortunately,

00:45:41.940 I think that

00:45:42.960 services had

00:45:43.800 been set up

00:45:44.600 to make

00:45:46.100 them the

00:45:47.360 victims of

00:45:48.280 their own

00:45:48.840 lives and

00:45:49.520 behaviour.

00:45:51.300 So that's

00:45:52.380 how they

00:45:52.760 presented

00:45:53.100 themselves.

00:45:53.540 And I

00:45:53.680 remember

00:45:53.960 another

00:45:54.260 prisoner

00:45:55.600 who came

00:45:56.480 in and

00:45:57.280 said,

00:45:58.180 now,

00:45:58.600 he'd been

00:45:59.740 in prison

00:46:01.700 several times

00:46:02.400 for burglary

00:46:03.100 and such

00:46:03.860 are the

00:46:04.320 British police

00:46:05.080 that really

00:46:05.620 you have to

00:46:07.700 want to be

00:46:08.460 caught,

00:46:09.220 to be caught

00:46:09.980 by the

00:46:10.380 British police

00:46:11.060 for burglary.

00:46:11.940 But anyway,

00:46:13.280 he said to

00:46:15.160 me,

00:46:15.400 Doctor,

00:46:15.720 do you

00:46:15.880 think my

00:46:17.160 burgling

00:46:18.360 got anything,

00:46:20.040 do you

00:46:20.300 think it's

00:46:20.600 my childhood

00:46:21.460 that caused

00:46:22.220 me to

00:46:22.580 burgle?

00:46:23.420 Do you

00:46:23.540 think it's

00:46:24.140 got something

00:46:25.520 to do with

00:46:26.000 my childhood?

00:46:26.580 So I

00:46:26.760 said,

00:46:27.040 absolutely

00:46:27.480 nothing

00:46:28.020 whatever.

00:46:29.960 And he

00:46:32.000 said,

00:46:32.740 what?

00:46:34.380 Because he

00:46:35.080 expected me

00:46:35.760 to say

00:46:36.300 it must

00:46:38.040 be.

00:46:39.160 And then

00:46:40.880 I said,

00:46:41.400 why do

00:46:42.400 I do

00:46:42.680 it?

00:46:42.860 I said,

00:46:43.100 well,

00:46:43.380 it's quite

00:46:44.000 simple.

00:46:45.020 You're lazy

00:46:45.720 and stupid

00:46:46.400 and you're

00:46:47.040 not prepared

00:46:47.680 to work

00:46:48.240 for what

00:46:48.620 it is

00:46:48.960 that you

00:46:49.280 want.

00:46:50.440 And he

00:46:50.800 laughed.

00:46:51.400 Instead of

00:46:52.040 being very

00:46:52.640 angry,

00:46:53.280 he laughed.

00:46:54.160 because he

00:46:58.020 knew that

00:46:58.720 what he

00:46:59.020 was saying

00:46:59.440 was

00:46:59.680 nonsense.

00:47:01.700 And then

00:47:02.560 after that,

00:47:03.680 we could

00:47:04.100 talk about

00:47:04.760 his childhood

00:47:05.280 because it

00:47:05.800 was true

00:47:06.400 that his

00:47:07.000 childhood

00:47:07.400 was a

00:47:08.420 bad one.

00:47:08.980 And most

00:47:09.420 of the

00:47:09.720 prisoners

00:47:10.120 have a

00:47:11.340 very bad

00:47:12.140 childhood.

00:47:13.880 Many of

00:47:14.580 them had

00:47:14.860 very bad

00:47:15.420 childhood.

00:47:15.900 That was

00:47:16.580 all true.

00:47:17.760 But it's

00:47:18.440 not true

00:47:18.780 that everyone

00:47:19.260 who has

00:47:20.040 a bad

00:47:20.780 childhood

00:47:21.180 is a

00:47:21.560 burglar.

00:47:22.600 Right.

00:47:22.920 Just as

00:47:23.320 it's not

00:47:23.760 true that

00:47:24.220 everyone

00:47:24.520 who's

00:47:24.860 sexually

00:47:25.200 molested

00:47:25.700 grows up

00:47:26.260 to be

00:47:26.500 a molester

00:47:27.000 even though

00:47:27.760 many

00:47:28.540 molesters

00:47:29.220 were

00:47:29.620 molested.

00:47:30.660 Yes.

00:47:31.320 Yeah.

00:47:31.740 Yeah.

00:47:31.880 Right.

00:47:32.240 So there

00:47:34.740 were lots

00:47:36.160 of other

00:47:36.700 cases like

00:47:38.260 that.

00:47:38.580 I remember

00:47:39.020 a chat

00:47:40.620 came to

00:47:41.300 me.

00:47:42.760 I mean,

00:47:43.200 prisoners

00:47:43.900 were said

00:47:44.780 to be of

00:47:45.720 low

00:47:46.160 intelligence

00:47:47.160 on average,

00:47:49.700 lower than

00:47:50.280 average

00:47:50.700 intelligence.

00:47:52.020 All I

00:47:52.360 can say

00:47:52.860 is,

00:47:53.320 that I

00:47:54.520 never found

00:47:55.080 them incapable

00:47:55.700 of understanding

00:47:56.740 what I

00:47:57.200 was saying.

00:47:58.200 Now,

00:47:58.400 maybe what

00:47:58.940 I'm saying

00:47:59.440 isn't very

00:47:59.920 intelligent,

00:48:00.600 so it's

00:48:00.900 easy for

00:48:01.360 unintelligent

00:48:01.960 people to

00:48:03.220 understand it.

00:48:04.900 But nevertheless,

00:48:06.540 I found that

00:48:07.840 they could

00:48:08.180 actually follow

00:48:08.920 quite complicated

00:48:09.860 arguments.

00:48:10.560 I'll give you

00:48:10.940 an example.

00:48:11.740 There also

00:48:12.340 isn't a clear

00:48:13.140 relationship

00:48:13.760 between IQ

00:48:14.860 and antisocial

00:48:15.680 behavior.

00:48:16.900 Partly,

00:48:17.600 it's complicated,

00:48:18.460 too,

00:48:18.540 because many

00:48:19.480 prisoners have

00:48:20.220 histories of

00:48:20.840 head trauma,

00:48:21.740 often from

00:48:22.420 violence and

00:48:23.540 from child

00:48:23.980 abuse and

00:48:24.580 damage from

00:48:25.760 alcoholism and

00:48:26.600 so on.

00:48:27.000 But I

00:48:27.580 know the

00:48:28.200 literature on

00:48:28.780 antisocial

00:48:29.320 behavior.

00:48:29.880 We looked at

00:48:30.320 predictors for

00:48:30.960 years and

00:48:31.420 even

00:48:31.660 neuropsychological

00:48:32.580 tests that

00:48:33.220 assess prefrontal

00:48:34.220 function,

00:48:34.700 for example,

00:48:35.300 which is

00:48:35.660 hypothetically the

00:48:36.660 seat of

00:48:37.060 inhibition or

00:48:38.160 higher-order

00:48:38.760 cognition.

00:48:40.000 The predictive

00:48:40.780 power of

00:48:41.580 cognitive ability

00:48:43.000 in relationship to

00:48:44.300 criminality is

00:48:45.000 really quite

00:48:45.480 low.

00:48:46.480 And IQ is

00:48:47.220 completely

00:48:47.640 uncorrelated with

00:48:48.640 conscientiousness,

00:48:49.700 which is a

00:48:50.120 personality factor,

00:48:51.180 and with

00:48:51.540 agreeableness.

00:48:52.540 So it's not

00:48:53.380 obvious that

00:48:54.040 criminals are

00:48:54.620 stupid.

00:48:55.580 Yeah,

00:48:55.820 no,

00:48:56.140 I personally

00:48:57.940 never found

00:48:58.700 that.

00:48:59.120 And, for

00:48:59.580 example,

00:49:00.160 a chap came

00:49:01.260 to me and

00:49:01.780 said,

00:49:02.200 you have to

00:49:03.100 give me

00:49:03.440 something because

00:49:04.660 if you don't

00:49:08.400 give me

00:49:08.720 something,

00:49:09.500 I'm going

00:49:10.220 to go and

00:49:10.760 attack a

00:49:12.440 child sex

00:49:13.460 offender in

00:49:14.980 the prison.

00:49:15.780 Actually,

00:49:16.340 generally,

00:49:17.220 they were

00:49:17.460 kept apart

00:49:18.260 because they

00:49:19.360 would be

00:49:19.680 immediately

00:49:20.100 attacked.

00:49:20.620 But anyway,

00:49:21.000 he said,

00:49:21.500 I'm going to

00:49:23.060 kill one if

00:49:24.060 I get hold

00:49:25.520 of one if

00:49:25.960 you don't do

00:49:26.600 something.

00:49:27.840 I said,

00:49:28.200 well,

00:49:28.320 let's think

00:49:29.140 about this.

00:49:29.940 He said,

00:49:30.260 why do you

00:49:31.160 feel like

00:49:31.680 that?

00:49:31.820 And he

00:49:31.960 said,

00:49:32.160 well,

00:49:32.320 because they

00:49:33.200 interfere with

00:49:33.840 kiddies,

00:49:35.880 with children.

00:49:37.640 So I took

00:49:38.500 a bit of a

00:49:39.460 risk.

00:49:40.040 I said,

00:49:40.280 do you have

00:49:40.720 any children?

00:49:43.140 And he

00:49:44.820 said,

00:49:45.560 yes,

00:49:46.420 three.

00:49:47.260 I said,

00:49:47.720 how many

00:49:48.160 mothers?

00:49:50.520 And he

00:49:51.000 said,

00:49:51.240 well,

00:49:51.420 three.

00:49:52.400 I said,

00:49:53.620 and these

00:49:55.940 mothers,

00:49:56.540 do they have

00:49:57.620 boyfriends?

00:50:00.100 And they

00:50:02.760 said,

00:50:03.000 yes.

00:50:03.400 And I

00:50:03.680 said,

00:50:04.320 one or

00:50:05.260 perhaps more?

00:50:06.500 Have they

00:50:06.800 had more

00:50:07.240 than one?

00:50:07.940 And they

00:50:08.320 said,

00:50:08.540 yes.

00:50:08.820 I said,

00:50:09.700 well,

00:50:11.140 is it

00:50:13.040 likely that

00:50:13.700 one or

00:50:14.220 more of

00:50:14.660 these

00:50:14.860 boyfriends

00:50:15.420 has

00:50:16.000 sexually

00:50:16.620 interfered

00:50:17.260 with one

00:50:17.600 of your

00:50:17.920 children?

00:50:19.640 And he

00:50:20.400 immediately

00:50:20.940 got the

00:50:21.440 point.

00:50:23.700 And I

00:50:25.240 said,

00:50:25.520 well,

00:50:25.700 you haven't

00:50:27.500 interfered

00:50:28.000 sexually with

00:50:28.660 children

00:50:28.940 yourself,

00:50:29.600 but you

00:50:29.880 facilitated

00:50:30.720 such,

00:50:32.280 you've

00:50:32.680 created the

00:50:33.260 conditions

00:50:33.720 in which

00:50:34.440 behavior is

00:50:36.780 likely to

00:50:37.440 occur.

00:50:38.680 Now it's

00:50:39.220 too late.

00:50:39.660 You can't

00:50:40.180 do anything

00:50:40.680 about it

00:50:41.280 now.

00:50:41.620 It's too

00:50:41.920 late.

00:50:42.280 But you

00:50:42.540 can make

00:50:43.100 sure that

00:50:44.540 you don't

00:50:45.680 do anything

00:50:46.140 to further

00:50:46.700 it in the

00:50:47.400 future.

00:50:48.880 And he

00:50:49.220 went out.

00:50:50.040 There was

00:50:50.500 no more

00:50:50.940 talk about

00:50:51.880 killing

00:50:52.800 sex

00:50:56.340 abusers.

00:50:56.940 Why do

00:50:57.660 you think

00:50:57.980 you got

00:50:58.280 away with

00:50:58.680 that?

00:51:00.440 Well,

00:51:01.780 you said

00:51:02.260 you took

00:51:03.320 a risk,

00:51:04.080 right?

00:51:04.780 Well,

00:51:06.460 I took

00:51:07.000 a risk.

00:51:07.820 I mean,

00:51:08.360 it was a

00:51:08.740 risk that

00:51:09.160 I didn't

00:51:09.540 know that

00:51:10.000 he had

00:51:10.320 children.

00:51:10.880 I didn't

00:51:11.280 know what

00:51:11.900 I mean,

00:51:12.420 I had a

00:51:12.860 fair idea

00:51:13.520 because it

00:51:14.020 was so

00:51:15.480 common

00:51:15.980 amongst

00:51:16.500 prisoners

00:51:17.280 and

00:51:19.060 outside

00:51:20.160 prison.

00:51:21.020 But it's

00:51:21.300 also a

00:51:22.180 risk.

00:51:22.580 I mean,

00:51:22.760 the risk

00:51:23.160 you took,

00:51:24.380 he asked

00:51:24.880 you to

00:51:25.100 do

00:51:25.280 something

00:51:25.720 because

00:51:26.060 he was

00:51:26.340 going to

00:51:26.660 become

00:51:26.940 murderous.

00:51:28.220 So that's

00:51:28.700 a pretty

00:51:29.080 salient,

00:51:31.360 immediate,

00:51:32.040 and credible

00:51:32.820 threat,

00:51:33.600 given that

00:51:34.000 a violent

00:51:34.460 criminal

00:51:34.980 uttered it

00:51:35.560 in a

00:51:35.840 prison.

00:51:36.660 Yes.

00:51:37.200 And your

00:51:37.580 response

00:51:38.160 wasn't,

00:51:38.940 I better

00:51:39.300 prescribe him

00:51:40.160 a sedative,

00:51:41.100 at least to

00:51:42.080 cover myself

00:51:42.820 up, let's

00:51:43.680 say, if

00:51:44.280 anything does

00:51:44.880 happen.

00:51:45.420 Your response

00:51:46.200 was, well,

00:51:46.860 let's call

00:51:47.360 this guy

00:51:47.860 out for

00:51:48.400 his rather

00:51:50.120 self-evident

00:51:50.980 moral flaws,

00:51:52.840 blind

00:51:53.400 ignorance of

00:51:54.160 which is

00:51:54.640 facilitating an

00:51:55.700 unearned sense

00:51:56.480 of homicidal

00:51:57.420 moral superiority,

00:51:58.700 and let's

00:51:59.840 assume that

00:52:00.320 that's going

00:52:00.760 to be

00:52:01.040 curative.

00:52:01.640 That's a

00:52:02.300 risk.

00:52:03.320 Yeah, it's

00:52:05.160 a risk.

00:52:05.780 And I must

00:52:06.280 say that

00:52:06.900 when I

00:52:07.700 had, and

00:52:08.880 I had

00:52:09.280 lots of,

00:52:10.280 quite a few

00:52:10.780 patients who

00:52:11.480 said similar

00:52:12.220 things,

00:52:13.840 and I

00:52:16.360 didn't give

00:52:17.180 in to what

00:52:17.940 was, in

00:52:18.860 essence,

00:52:19.700 moral blackmail,

00:52:21.040 but of course

00:52:21.540 it did always

00:52:22.480 occur to me

00:52:23.200 that maybe

00:52:23.880 one day one

00:52:25.000 of these

00:52:25.500 people who

00:52:26.140 was threatening

00:52:26.840 something like

00:52:27.540 that might

00:52:28.360 actually commit

00:52:30.320 the act,

00:52:30.940 and then

00:52:32.280 someone might

00:52:33.440 blame me.

00:52:34.980 Yes, definitely.

00:52:36.580 That never

00:52:37.500 happened.

00:52:38.400 That never

00:52:39.200 happened.

00:52:41.460 But I was,

00:52:42.780 I'm quite,

00:52:45.200 I was fairly

00:52:46.540 clear that

00:52:48.180 their responsibility

00:52:49.940 was not to

00:52:52.200 behave like

00:52:52.900 that.

00:52:53.280 and he

00:52:56.680 didn't, in

00:52:57.380 my opinion,

00:52:58.220 as far as I

00:52:58.780 could tell,

00:52:59.560 suffer from

00:53:00.220 anything which

00:53:01.780 would have

00:53:04.180 excused him.

00:53:05.760 Right, some

00:53:06.440 organic impulse

00:53:07.800 control disorder,

00:53:08.980 some prefrontal

00:53:09.820 damage.

00:53:10.660 I mean, those

00:53:11.500 things do occur.

00:53:12.800 A certain

00:53:13.320 percentage of

00:53:14.020 violent criminals

00:53:14.740 have rage

00:53:16.560 that's induced

00:53:17.120 by epilepsy,

00:53:18.000 and that can be

00:53:18.540 triggered by

00:53:19.040 drinking.

00:53:19.720 And there are

00:53:20.360 organic syndromes

00:53:21.440 that mimic

00:53:22.080 virtually every

00:53:23.020 moral failing.

00:53:24.560 Yeah, if he

00:53:25.620 had a psychosis,

00:53:27.840 for example,

00:53:28.140 I mean, if he

00:53:28.540 had a psychosis,

00:53:30.000 I wouldn't, of

00:53:31.000 course, I

00:53:31.600 wouldn't have

00:53:32.040 said what I

00:53:33.100 said.

00:53:35.480 My sense in

00:53:36.800 reading your

00:53:37.340 books is,

00:53:38.600 so there is

00:53:39.400 this censoriousness,

00:53:40.680 or that's

00:53:41.300 something you

00:53:41.700 could be

00:53:42.000 criticized about

00:53:42.940 for, and

00:53:44.700 I'm sure, and

00:53:45.780 you can tell me

00:53:46.400 about that, I'm

00:53:47.220 sure you have

00:53:47.780 been criticized

00:53:48.420 for that, and

00:53:50.380 you've written

00:53:52.140 provocative

00:53:53.280 tracts like

00:53:54.420 the toxic

00:53:55.180 cult of

00:53:56.060 sentimentality,

00:53:57.340 which is a

00:53:58.200 real dagger in

00:53:59.140 some sense,

00:53:59.860 because people,

00:54:01.440 let's not call

00:54:02.240 it sentimentality

00:54:03.200 for a moment,

00:54:04.080 let's call it

00:54:04.660 empathy or

00:54:05.360 sympathy, and

00:54:06.720 you make a

00:54:07.600 case that, I

00:54:08.820 think, and

00:54:09.280 correct me if

00:54:09.980 I'm wrong,

00:54:10.540 that excessive

00:54:11.960 empathy,

00:54:13.340 unthinking

00:54:13.860 sympathy, can

00:54:16.120 produce

00:54:18.300 catastrophic

00:54:19.020 consequences,

00:54:19.980 because it's

00:54:20.620 not tempered

00:54:21.380 by judgment,

00:54:22.620 and then I

00:54:23.440 look at the

00:54:23.900 personality

00:54:24.400 literature, you

00:54:25.560 know, we

00:54:26.020 have two

00:54:26.580 moral personality

00:54:27.880 traits, roughly

00:54:28.940 speaking, one

00:54:30.440 is agreeableness,

00:54:32.140 and so people

00:54:32.780 who are high in

00:54:33.320 agreeableness are

00:54:34.020 empathetic and

00:54:34.820 sympathetic and

00:54:35.660 self-sacrificing,

00:54:36.940 and perhaps resentful

00:54:38.280 because of it, so

00:54:39.040 it's not an

00:54:39.500 untrammeled virtue,

00:54:40.480 whereas the

00:54:41.020 disagreeable types

00:54:42.040 are more likely

00:54:43.080 to be imprisoned,

00:54:44.440 so that's a

00:54:45.160 predictor of

00:54:46.100 antisocial

00:54:47.100 behavior, but

00:54:48.180 they're implacable

00:54:50.180 and stubborn and

00:54:50.940 hard to push

00:54:51.500 around, and so

00:54:52.340 people vary on

00:54:53.900 that distribution.

00:54:56.100 I think

00:54:56.660 agreeableness is

00:54:57.620 a, the empathy

00:54:58.980 dimension is a

00:54:59.900 trait that's

00:55:00.600 particularly good

00:55:01.920 for fostering the

00:55:02.900 care of infants,

00:55:04.460 because infants,

00:55:06.400 immediate empathy

00:55:07.320 with an infant

00:55:07.960 under six to

00:55:09.300 nine months is

00:55:10.140 almost invariably

00:55:11.660 the right response

00:55:12.840 if the infant is

00:55:13.700 crying or in

00:55:14.820 distress, your

00:55:16.160 job isn't to

00:55:17.000 question or

00:55:17.760 judge, it's to

00:55:19.160 alleviate the

00:55:20.200 source of the

00:55:20.980 trouble, and it's

00:55:23.060 very hard to take

00:55:23.960 care of infants, and

00:55:24.860 it's no wonder that

00:55:25.940 there's a moral

00:55:26.720 virtue that's

00:55:27.740 essentially devoted

00:55:28.740 to the care of

00:55:30.160 true dependence,

00:55:32.400 parents, but we

00:55:33.540 have conscientiousness

00:55:34.700 too, and

00:55:35.860 conscientiousness is

00:55:36.940 the best predictor

00:55:37.800 of long-term life

00:55:38.620 success apart from

00:55:39.620 IQ, and

00:55:40.320 conscientious people

00:55:41.520 are good at

00:55:42.360 formulating and

00:55:44.960 keeping contracts,

00:55:46.520 long-term contracts,

00:55:47.860 it's sort of a cold

00:55:48.900 virtue, and they are

00:55:50.140 judgmental, but as

00:55:53.220 far as I'm concerned,

00:55:54.140 we wouldn't have both

00:55:55.080 these personality

00:55:55.820 traits, like they're

00:55:56.500 two of five, so it's

00:55:58.060 not like it's a trivial

00:55:59.020 proportion of the

00:55:59.860 variation in

00:56:00.460 personality, we

00:56:01.600 wouldn't have two

00:56:02.940 of our five

00:56:03.580 personality traits

00:56:04.700 aimed at regulating

00:56:08.340 our behavior if

00:56:09.180 empathy alone was

00:56:10.220 sufficient.

00:56:11.920 Going online without

00:56:13.180 ExpressVPN is like

00:56:14.460 not paying attention

00:56:15.280 to the safety

00:56:15.820 demonstration on a

00:56:16.720 flight.

00:56:17.380 Most of the time,

00:56:18.220 you'll probably be

00:56:19.000 fine, but what if

00:56:20.280 one day that weird

00:56:21.320 yellow mask drops

00:56:22.220 down from overhead

00:56:22.940 and you have no

00:56:24.120 idea what to do?

00:56:25.220 In our hyper-connected

00:56:26.260 world, your digital

00:56:27.240 privacy isn't just a

00:56:28.340 luxury, it's a

00:56:29.400 fundamental right.

00:56:30.340 Every time you

00:56:30.880 connect to an

00:56:31.420 unsecured network in

00:56:32.500 a cafe, hotel, or

00:56:33.920 airport, you're

00:56:34.820 essentially broadcasting

00:56:35.780 your personal

00:56:36.360 information to anyone

00:56:37.600 with a technical

00:56:38.320 know-how to intercept

00:56:39.340 it.

00:56:39.680 And let's be clear, it

00:56:40.680 doesn't take a genius

00:56:41.640 hacker to do this.

00:56:42.880 With some off-the-shelf

00:56:43.860 hardware, even a tech-savvy

00:56:45.360 teenager could

00:56:46.140 potentially access your

00:56:47.220 passwords, bank logins,

00:56:48.780 and credit card details.

00:56:50.260 Now, you might think,

00:56:51.480 what's the big deal?

00:56:52.360 Who'd want my data

00:56:53.280 anyway?

00:56:53.920 Well, on the dark web,

00:56:55.080 your personal information

00:56:56.200 could fetch up to

00:56:57.000 $1,000.

00:56:58.540 That's right, there's a

00:56:59.380 whole underground economy

00:57:00.600 built on stolen

00:57:01.600 identities.

00:57:02.600 Enter ExpressVPN.

00:57:04.340 It's like a digital

00:57:05.080 fortress, creating an

00:57:06.300 encrypted tunnel between

00:57:07.280 your device and the

00:57:08.340 internet.

00:57:09.040 Their encryption is so

00:57:10.200 robust that it would

00:57:11.100 take a hacker with a

00:57:12.000 supercomputer over a

00:57:13.240 billion years to crack

00:57:14.340 it.

00:57:14.640 But don't let its power

00:57:15.660 fool you, ExpressVPN is

00:57:17.340 incredibly user-friendly.

00:57:18.820 With just one click,

00:57:19.820 you're protected across

00:57:20.680 all your devices.

00:57:21.860 Phones, laptops,

00:57:22.920 tablets, you name it.

00:57:23.960 That's why I use

00:57:24.820 ExpressVPN whenever I'm

00:57:26.160 traveling or working from

00:57:27.460 a coffee shop.

00:57:28.180 It gives me peace of

00:57:29.000 mind knowing that my

00:57:29.840 research, communications,

00:57:31.340 and personal data are

00:57:32.540 shielded from prying eyes.

00:57:34.160 Secure your online data

00:57:35.300 today by visiting

00:57:36.340 expressvpn.com slash

00:57:38.160 Jordan.

00:57:38.920 That's E-X-P-R-E-S-S

00:57:40.940 vpn.com slash Jordan

00:57:42.680 and you can get an extra

00:57:43.720 three months free.

00:57:45.180 Expressvpn.com slash

00:57:46.840 Jordan.

00:57:50.940 Starting a business can be

00:57:52.320 tough, but thanks to

00:57:53.420 Shopify, running your

00:57:54.480 online storefront is

00:57:55.600 easier than ever.

00:57:56.480 Shopify is the global

00:57:58.240 commerce platform that

00:57:59.220 helps you sell at every

00:58:00.240 stage of your business.

00:58:01.520 From the launch your

00:58:02.200 online shop stage all the

00:58:03.520 way to the did we just

00:58:04.520 hit a million orders stage,

00:58:06.240 Shopify is here to help

00:58:07.380 you grow.

00:58:08.420 Our marketing team uses

00:58:09.380 Shopify every day to sell

00:58:10.720 our merchandise and we

00:58:11.880 love how easy it is to

00:58:12.940 add more items, ship

00:58:14.240 products, and track

00:58:15.120 conversions.

00:58:16.220 With Shopify, customize

00:58:17.400 your online store to your

00:58:18.780 style with flexible

00:58:19.880 templates and powerful

00:58:20.920 tools alongside an

00:58:22.320 endless list of

00:58:23.200 integrations and third

00:58:24.160 party apps like on

00:58:25.260 demand printing, accounting,

00:58:26.740 and chatbots.

00:58:27.860 Shopify helps you turn

00:58:28.820 browsers into buyers with

00:58:30.240 the internet's best

00:58:31.060 converting checkout, up to

00:58:32.480 36% better compared to

00:58:34.040 other leading e-commerce

00:58:35.060 platforms.

00:58:36.260 No matter how big you want

00:58:37.240 to grow, Shopify gives you

00:58:38.600 everything you need to take

00:58:39.680 control and take your

00:58:40.780 business to the next level.

00:58:42.640 Sign up for a $1 per month

00:58:44.040 trial period at

00:58:44.940 Shopify.com slash JBP, all

00:58:47.560 lowercase.

00:58:48.620 Go to Shopify.com slash JBP

00:58:50.680 now to grow your business

00:58:52.000 no matter what stage you're

00:58:53.380 in.

00:58:53.600 That's Shopify.com slash JBP.

00:58:58.560 And so you go after it, the

00:59:00.400 toxic cult of sentimentality.

00:59:02.100 What do you mean by that?

00:59:03.960 Well, I mean the, if you like

00:59:07.080 the infantilization of people

00:59:12.660 who are expressing emotion.

00:59:14.980 So we accept now that, I mean

00:59:19.820 there's, if someone, if

00:59:22.720 someone expresses distress, we

00:59:25.960 don't inquire where that

00:59:27.640 distress comes from, how it

00:59:30.260 arose.

00:59:31.200 We just simply try to

00:59:33.380 alleviate it.

00:59:35.360 Oscar Wilde, of course, said

00:59:37.940 that sentimentality is the

00:59:39.800 desire to have the emotion

00:59:42.580 without the, without the cost

00:59:44.740 of the emotion.

00:59:47.800 I suppose sentimentality is to,

00:59:50.540 is, is to empathy what

00:59:55.300 kitsch is to art.

00:59:58.260 And so what would you regard,

00:59:59.980 okay, so let's.

01:00:02.940 I'll give you an example.

01:00:04.080 I mean, I start the book with

01:00:05.300 an example, which I read in my

01:00:07.440 local newspaper, which was of a

01:00:10.140 man who bought a chicken in a

01:00:13.160 supermarket, uh, and roasted

01:00:15.980 it or, and then, uh, gave it

01:00:19.520 to, you know, they were eating

01:00:21.000 their dinner and the girl, uh, the

01:00:24.560 little girl finds that there are

01:00:26.820 chickens' feet in it and screams

01:00:29.820 with horror.

01:00:31.100 And so the father, the child is so

01:00:33.760 horrified that the father says, I

01:00:36.980 don't know whether this is what he

01:00:38.360 did literally, but I had to throw

01:00:40.660 it out of the window.

01:00:44.240 So he just took the emotion of

01:00:46.380 the child and said, I have to

01:00:48.580 assuage that emotion any way I

01:00:52.460 can.

01:00:52.920 And the quickest way is the best

01:00:54.660 because of course she would have

01:00:56.740 less emotion if it's dealt with

01:00:58.660 quickly.

01:00:59.680 So there's no, there's no rational,

01:01:03.440 there's no attempt to argue

01:01:04.700 rationally about, uh, about this.

01:01:08.360 That actually chickens do have

01:01:10.040 feet.

01:01:11.480 That they were live creatures once.

01:01:14.520 And this is something that

01:01:15.900 children have to learn.

01:01:18.840 It's one of the things that

01:01:20.200 children have to know.

01:01:21.600 And so what's the problem with

01:01:23.140 reflexive empathy?

01:01:25.380 Exactly.

01:01:26.740 Well, it's not exactly empathy.

01:01:28.960 Okay.

01:01:29.700 Okay.

01:01:30.120 I think it's not genuine.

01:01:31.800 Well, then we should define it.

01:01:33.540 Genuine empathy.

01:01:34.360 We should define genuine empathy

01:01:35.980 and distinguish it from

01:01:37.180 counterproductive sentimentality.

01:01:39.620 Yeah.

01:01:40.100 Well, it's not, it's not easy, of

01:01:42.160 course.

01:01:42.260 No, fair enough.

01:01:43.520 I, I know I'm, I'm putting you

01:01:45.420 on the spot in this.

01:01:46.300 I'm saying that that's something

01:01:47.500 that could be productively

01:01:48.880 attempted.

01:01:50.160 Yes.

01:01:50.600 I'm not sure I have the complete

01:01:52.960 answer to that.

01:01:54.520 Uh, you, you, you, you, you,

01:01:56.140 you're, you're hitting at it from

01:01:57.540 all sorts of different directions

01:01:58.880 though, you know, like one of the

01:01:59.980 things that, that emerges from your

01:02:02.180 book and, and, you know, I, I saw

01:02:05.300 you as someone who wanted genuinely

01:02:08.420 to be of help to the people that you

01:02:11.600 were seeing and tortured by this

01:02:13.680 constant immersion that you had in

01:02:16.060 absolute bloody nightmarish

01:02:18.820 catastrophe, like to a degree that I

01:02:23.200 don't really understand how you

01:02:24.660 managed outraged by what you saw

01:02:27.440 outraged by the thoughtless

01:02:29.520 contribution of skeptical and

01:02:31.340 critical intellectuals to this

01:02:33.060 suffering, which is swept under the

01:02:35.480 table in some sense, or, or

01:02:37.040 attributed only to, you know, the

01:02:38.940 power hungry depredations of

01:02:41.100 capitalism or something like that.

01:02:42.840 And so you're outraged by that.

01:02:45.040 And you're trying to use your

01:02:46.880 capacity for judgment to help your

01:02:50.180 clients, your patients distinguish

01:02:52.300 between those things that they're

01:02:53.740 doing that clearly hurt them and

01:02:55.980 those things that help them.

01:02:57.620 And also to attribute to them the

01:02:59.160 capacity to do that, which like I

01:03:01.220 was talking to my wife today, she,

01:03:02.940 we were talking about a woman she's

01:03:05.040 dealing with, who is having a hard

01:03:06.960 time disciplining her one and a half

01:03:08.480 year old.

01:03:08.900 And, you know, I mentioned to her that

01:03:10.600 one of the things I've seen among

01:03:12.220 especially my seriously affected

01:03:14.020 clinical clients is that they

01:03:15.640 actually have no idea that they

01:03:17.820 could change their behavior in a

01:03:19.520 manner that would improve the

01:03:20.700 future.

01:03:21.740 That as a concept, that's not part of

01:03:24.400 the subculture that they're

01:03:25.740 embedded in.

01:03:26.580 And that's so counterproductive and

01:03:28.680 unhelpful.

01:03:29.760 Just hinting at that's helpful.

01:03:30.980 We also, of course, give them

01:03:33.160 incentives not to think like that.

01:03:36.280 Because if you have a, if in fact you

01:03:40.620 have a situation in which changing

01:03:43.920 their behavior will not improve that

01:03:48.980 certainly their economic situation very

01:03:51.140 much, which is actually the condition

01:03:55.280 would, the situation of many of my

01:03:58.120 patients, that takes away one of the

01:04:00.900 possible incentives for changing

01:04:03.700 behavior.

01:04:05.400 And why is it that finding gainful

01:04:08.100 employment, for example, isn't going

01:04:09.680 to produce a material change in

01:04:11.240 circumstances?

01:04:12.060 Why, how is it that this is at the

01:04:14.320 level of detail?

01:04:15.900 Because you, many people, if they go

01:04:18.980 to work, they lose benefits.

01:04:22.080 They have to start paying for things

01:04:23.960 which were previously paid for them.

01:04:25.840 So they end up going to work for X

01:04:31.860 number of hours and being very

01:04:35.220 slightly better off in monetary terms,

01:04:38.340 which doesn't seem to them to be

01:04:40.480 worth it.

01:04:41.480 And I can understand that.

01:04:43.440 So you're asking them to do low-level

01:04:45.320 job, get up maybe at six o'clock in

01:04:47.620 the morning.

01:04:48.580 And furthermore, of course, it's not

01:04:50.480 good for their children because often

01:04:52.680 they are single parents.

01:04:54.680 So they've got no support at home

01:04:56.760 other than, other than whatever it is

01:04:59.980 that the state provides them.

01:05:03.140 And they have, so they have to manage

01:05:05.640 their children and going to work when

01:05:08.780 it's, it's very difficult for them.

01:05:11.260 Right.

01:05:11.880 For no, for no economic incentive.

01:05:13.900 For, for, well, I mean, they are

01:05:15.480 marginally better off.

01:05:17.820 Well, maybe, maybe they have to buy

01:05:19.920 clothes.

01:05:20.520 It's expensive to work, to enter the

01:05:23.180 workforce.

01:05:23.640 It's not trivial.

01:05:25.080 They have to arrange transportation.

01:05:27.480 That's also an expense.

01:05:28.900 And then you said childcare.

01:05:30.020 That's a devastating expense because

01:05:32.200 most people who would work on the

01:05:35.080 margins don't make enough money to

01:05:37.400 afford childcare at all, let alone

01:05:39.960 childcare of any quality.

01:05:42.080 And so, so it also means that this,

01:05:44.100 in this unwillingness to pass judgment,

01:05:46.520 let's say on the part of helpers also

01:05:50.440 means that we're, we abdicate our

01:05:52.440 responsibility to design social welfare

01:05:54.800 systems that would reward productive

01:05:57.440 behavior because we don't want to make

01:05:59.420 the judgments about what behaviors are

01:06:01.080 productive and what aren't, at least

01:06:03.180 partly because we don't want to make

01:06:04.720 mistakes and throw people out that are

01:06:06.980 deserving, but we can't differentiate.

01:06:09.420 But then because we won't make those

01:06:11.060 judgments, we produce systems that

01:06:12.660 counter-productively reward the kinds of

01:06:16.160 behaviors that produce the problems we

01:06:17.700 want to solve.

01:06:18.380 They treat everybody as helpless.

01:06:21.560 And, and it's a kind of learned

01:06:24.260 helplessness actually.

01:06:25.960 And if you look at, I mean, it's very

01:06:28.500 interesting to see the, the success,

01:06:32.760 the economic success of certain groups

01:06:36.460 of poor immigrants.

01:06:37.380 For example, the Sikhs in Britain, and

01:06:42.520 I'm sure, and certainly in Canada, they

01:06:46.240 may come with nothing, but within a very

01:06:48.660 short time, they've succeeded.

01:06:51.340 They've, they've risen up the social

01:06:53.260 scale, the social and economic scale.

01:06:55.500 Now you see that with first generation

01:06:57.460 Asian immigrants in North America.

01:06:59.420 So I looked into that in detail because,

01:07:01.840 because it's a very interesting phenomenon.

01:07:03.840 I was interested in the relationship between

01:07:05.800 IQ and conscientiousness, IQ and

01:07:09.580 personality and predicting long-term

01:07:11.120 life outcomes.

01:07:12.780 And by and large, people with higher

01:07:14.540 IQs do substantially better.

01:07:16.420 So if you had to pick one attribute to

01:07:18.220 ensure your success at birth, it would

01:07:20.380 be high intelligence.

01:07:21.620 It's, it's better to be born three

01:07:23.380 standard deviations above the mean in

01:07:25.420 IQ than three standard deviations above

01:07:28.380 the mean in wealth in terms of your

01:07:30.880 position at 40.

01:07:32.560 So 40 years later.

01:07:33.860 So IQ is very powerful.

01:07:36.180 Conscientiousness is also powerful, but

01:07:37.860 only about a third as much, but it's

01:07:39.600 still powerful enough so that Asian

01:07:42.440 immigrants, their first, their children

01:07:44.260 perform on average as well as native

01:07:50.460 born Caucasians who have a 15 IQ point

01:07:53.600 advantage, which is roughly the difference

01:07:55.640 between a college student and a high

01:07:57.200 school student.

01:07:57.880 And so there's something in the Asian

01:08:00.400 culture and what it is, is quite clear.

01:08:02.680 Actually, it's, it's, it's, uh, um, it's, uh,

01:08:07.040 incredibly intense work ethic and respect

01:08:10.440 for achievement, disciplined achievement in

01:08:14.100 the economic realm that's hammered in right

01:08:17.500 from now that disappears after about two

01:08:19.780 generations.

01:08:20.520 Yes, but, but presumably also there's the

01:08:24.020 maintenance of the family structure.

01:08:26.260 So that, uh, I mean, you don't certainly

01:08:30.220 where I was anyway, you didn't get this, uh,

01:08:32.760 this complete breakdown.

01:08:34.220 I mean, I never met, uh, I never met, uh,

01:08:38.700 children of Indian immigrants who didn't

01:08:41.400 know who their father was.

01:08:42.540 Right.

01:08:42.940 Right.

01:08:43.140 Well, and that's an interesting phenomenon

01:08:45.220 too.

01:08:45.700 Um, I went to, uh, talk at one point at the

01:08:49.080 university five or six years ago and, uh, a

01:08:52.940 feminist was speaking, uh, or a former

01:08:55.340 feminist, maybe still, maybe a real feminist

01:08:58.060 now, her name was Janice Fiamengo and she

01:09:00.360 had been a radical leftist feminist and was

01:09:04.120 in the English literature department and, and

01:09:06.020 eventually realized that what she was involved

01:09:08.040 in was, uh, uh, an academic scam fundamentally

01:09:11.620 and, and turned into quite a vocal critic of

01:09:13.680 that particular perspective, postmodern, say

01:09:16.840 neo-Marxist perspective.

01:09:18.560 She mentioned to the audience that, uh, families

01:09:22.680 with intact families with fathers, the children

01:09:26.440 in those families do much better on virtually

01:09:29.220 every measure you can possibly imagine.

01:09:31.480 And in my naivety at that point, I thought, well,

01:09:34.240 that's going to be an incontrovertible, uh,

01:09:36.900 statement because all you have to do is be remotely

01:09:40.180 familiar with the childhood development literature

01:09:42.480 and you figure that out right away.

01:09:44.120 And yet it was as if she dropped a live snake

01:09:47.500 into the audience because, and this is, this is

01:09:50.420 that toxic sentimentality that you were talking

01:09:52.860 about say, well, look, there are obviously

01:09:55.760 struggling single parents who are struggling for

01:09:59.680 no fault of their own, perfectly credible job of

01:10:04.180 raising high performing children.

01:10:06.660 And then if you say, well, the two parent family

01:10:11.680 is more desirable by implication, you're denigrating

01:10:15.720 that accomplishment, let's say, but, and, and fair

01:10:20.260 enough, there is a real tension there and, and there

01:10:23.100 are exceptions to the rule, but it's still the case

01:10:25.620 that if you were trying to design public policy that

01:10:28.420 was of benefit to children, you would design public policy

01:10:31.800 that would reward people for long-term monogamous

01:10:34.600 relationships where one of the, one of the participants

01:10:38.180 was male.

01:10:39.780 Yeah.

01:10:40.580 Well, but you need to use judgment for that.

01:10:43.120 Yes.

01:10:44.420 But if you look at, uh, I mean, if you look at, uh,

01:10:48.900 literature, for example, there has been a consistent

01:10:52.180 attack on that, on that view, um, for many, many years

01:10:57.780 going back, uh, for example, the Fabians and, and so on.

01:11:02.640 And, uh, and what happens is that people use marginal

01:11:08.000 cases, uh, as being central.

01:11:12.420 So, uh, and as I've already said, the, it, it's undoubtedly

01:11:17.760 true that many marriages were oppressive, um, and that being

01:11:23.520 in a, in an unhappy, uh, marriage, uh, is a horrible

01:11:29.500 experience, is a terrible experience.

01:11:32.280 It's a long form of torture.

01:11:35.340 But, uh, people then thought that there was a perfect

01:11:39.620 solution to this problem.

01:11:42.200 There's a perfect solution to human relationships.

01:11:46.540 And there is no perfect relationship, uh, perfect solution.

01:11:50.500 There's only better and worse and whatever, whatever, um, uh, form

01:11:58.060 of human relationships you're going to have, there are going

01:12:01.040 to be terrible ones.

01:12:02.260 But you, as far as I could see, and I had no real, no real

01:12:08.100 opinion about this until I actually immersed myself in the

01:12:12.600 world in which I did immerse myself, it's quite clear to me

01:12:16.800 that without, uh, without a formal structure of relationships, things

01:12:23.040 are absolutely terrible for, for very large numbers of people.

01:12:28.000 Now, of course, it's perfectly true that I, I saw, if you like,

01:12:32.940 only the failed cases or, but there may have been.

01:12:36.400 But the question then would be, well, where would you find the

01:12:38.580 successful cases?

01:12:39.740 Because let's think this through because it's, it's, it's crucial

01:12:43.480 point, you know, may, okay.

01:12:44.820 So you have a biased sample and maybe you approach this from an

01:12:48.100 ethically conservative perspective.

01:12:49.600 And so that produces your viewpoint and it bears little

01:12:52.780 relationship to the real world, but let's look for the counter

01:12:56.240 example.

01:12:56.760 So, well, first of all, you can't look among the high functioning

01:13:00.080 middle to upper classes for counter examples because they're all

01:13:04.680 married.

01:13:05.780 Yeah.

01:13:06.300 Right.

01:13:07.480 So, so, so then you think, well, is there a subset of people who

01:13:11.260 are poor, who are flourishing in their serial relationships, in

01:13:16.740 their fragmented serial relationships?

01:13:18.140 And well, first of all, probably not because they're poor, right?

01:13:21.700 By definition, you've already excluded the middle and upper

01:13:24.200 class.

01:13:24.780 So I'm kind of curious about.

01:13:27.340 Well, I mean, I tried to think, I thought, well, how is someone living

01:13:32.760 in these circumstances supposed to get out of, out of this situation?

01:13:38.100 Right.

01:13:38.440 What would look like a viable, practical alternative that would be

01:13:42.960 better?

01:13:44.120 That, yes, but didn't involve changing the way they made their

01:13:49.940 relationships or pursued their relationships.

01:13:53.200 So they have to do, we have to keep the relationship, the structure of the

01:13:59.440 relationships the same.

01:14:00.980 What can they, what else can they do that would make their lives better?

01:14:06.540 And I just couldn't see how their lives could get better.

01:14:09.280 While you have this kind of, this kind of free for all, well, it wasn't really

01:14:16.860 free for all, it was free for some.

01:14:19.580 And so I came to the conclusion that, that it was a, it was a social and cultural

01:14:26.020 disaster.

01:14:27.300 Well, so let's, we could look at the fantasies of sexual libertinism, let's

01:14:31.600 say, and I think a good place to look and, you know, I might be way off base here,

01:14:36.480 but whatever, I'm going to forge forward.

01:14:39.500 Let's look at Playboy because Playboy was the first mass market magazine that

01:14:44.980 sort of introduced the idea of sophisticated sexual freedom into the mass

01:14:50.600 audience, right?

01:14:51.840 And that quickly degenerated into Penthouse and Hustler, and then to this bloody

01:14:55.920 online catastrophe where everything goes and, and it's a cesspit of unimaginable

01:15:03.060 proportions.

01:15:03.620 But in any case, back to Playboy, um, well, you know, you have two sophisticated

01:15:09.840 people, the woman's in her early twenties, uh, the guys may be five years older than

01:15:16.480 that.

01:15:16.740 They both have a glass of, you know, nicely aged wine.

01:15:20.000 They're sitting in a fifties living room.

01:15:22.760 That's sophisticated, discussing literature, and they're both free to make their

01:15:27.900 choices.

01:15:28.240 And so they have sex and, and then maybe your life is an unending sequence of those

01:15:32.600 perfect dates.

01:15:34.300 It's like, well, what are the preconditions for that, for that even to be possible?

01:15:39.360 Well, you both have to be young.

01:15:41.480 You both have to be attractive.

01:15:43.420 You both have to be healthy.

01:15:44.960 You both have to be rich.

01:15:46.260 You both have to be educated in all likelihood so that you're not rife with psychopathology.

01:15:52.480 Um, so that that can be an enjoyable and civilized evening, let's say, well, you have

01:15:56.580 to have come from a pretty stable family, probably one with mother and father intact and, and

01:16:02.020 certainly not characterized by the constant unwanted serial switching of partners.

01:16:08.200 I mean, it's virtually unattainable, except in an unbelievably protected environment, but

01:16:13.840 you're, you're in that environment and you think, well, I could, maybe you're in a marriage

01:16:16.880 and you're unhappy.

01:16:17.700 You have all those attributes.

01:16:18.620 You think, well, I could jump out of that into this fantasy and everyone could share the

01:16:23.840 fantasy, but no, they couldn't.

01:16:26.200 It's not possible.

01:16:27.760 But it, uh, I mean, actually what people are really doing.

01:16:30.720 And I mean, uh, one of the, one of the most important figures in, um, in modern cultural

01:16:37.920 history is Marie Antoinette, who, uh, played shepherdess who went out, thought it would be

01:16:44.320 nice to be a shepherdess and went out to be a shepherdess for the day, but then always returned

01:16:49.900 to her palace.

01:16:50.920 And that this is what these people are doing because probably they give up that life at some

01:16:58.160 point.

01:16:58.580 The, the people that you, the rich, uh, people you've described and they actually settled

01:17:05.520 down more or less.

01:17:07.020 Well, invariably, if they don't, they're not happy about it, right?

01:17:12.140 If, if they don't, it's because they failed to get what they're actually aiming.

01:17:15.520 Incidentally, uh, one interesting thing was that, uh, I would talk to, uh, um, mothers

01:17:22.160 or single mothers about what they wanted for their daughters and what they wanted for their

01:17:27.780 daughters was for them to find a nice man who would have a good job, uh, and would treat

01:17:35.380 them decently and, uh, they'd buy a house and so on and so forth.

01:17:41.120 So, but they had no idea how, uh, to encourage them.

01:17:46.060 Right.

01:17:47.060 They have no idea what the micro elements are.

01:17:49.560 None whatsoever.

01:17:50.560 None whatsoever.

01:17:51.560 You see this in illiterate families too, is that if you ask them, do you want your children

01:17:57.140 to be educated?

01:17:58.000 They say, yes, but if, but there's no books in the house and they don't know where to

01:18:04.420 buy a book and they're intimidated by books.

01:18:06.480 And if they have a book, they don't know how to read it to their child.

01:18:09.140 You know, and you get these huge differences at, by the age of three between children in

01:18:15.740 literate and non-literate households, the three-year-olds in literate households might

01:18:20.020 have been exposed to, you know, a thousand hours worth of books by the time they're three.

01:18:24.600 They can already sit in a child in a house like that.

01:18:28.460 You give them a book, they know what it is.

01:18:30.400 They'll sit there and mime the action of reading.

01:18:33.260 They go through the pages.

01:18:34.280 They point at the pictures.

01:18:35.160 They have all these pre-literate behaviors built in that, that's the necessary scaffold

01:18:41.320 for the development of literacy.

01:18:43.380 And there's micro habits that, that, that are invisible.

01:18:46.740 If you're in that culture, they're invisible because they're just part of how you live.

01:18:49.960 Like the fact that you have a bookshelf, like the fact that your relatives buy your children

01:18:53.820 books.

01:18:54.800 If, and if you don't know how to do that at all, the barriers to entry are unbelievably unforgiving.

01:19:01.140 Yes.

01:19:01.580 And probably also nobody tries to make up for it on, on the behalf of the parents.

01:19:10.120 So, I mean, there's, the schools are themselves now doubt the value of, of literacy.

01:19:19.740 Some of them, they, the teachers don't know what they're supposed to be teaching or, or

01:19:28.000 at least, or alternatively, a lot of them are more interested in the ideological correctness

01:19:34.720 of, of the children than they are in their ability to read.

01:19:38.080 Well, it's actually quite difficult to teach children to read.

01:19:41.200 You have to pay attention to each child when they, they radically differ in their intellectual

01:19:45.540 ability.

01:19:46.580 And then you actually have to know how to teach someone to read.

01:19:49.700 And that's actually complicated.

01:19:51.180 You start with the letters, you, you get the letters pronounced, you get two word, two letter

01:19:55.480 combinations and three letter combinations.

01:19:57.340 You automatize that it's effortful, ideological indoctrination.

01:20:01.420 That's relatively straightforward.

01:20:04.220 Yeah.

01:20:04.660 Well, I, I mean, I can't really speak about this because I never tried to teach anybody

01:20:09.460 to read.

01:20:10.240 I had, um, an interesting experience.

01:20:13.680 Well, the data on that, the data on that are pretty clear.

01:20:15.900 If you teach children to read using phonetics, which breaks it, you know, we have a phonetic

01:20:21.580 alphabet because that makes things easier.

01:20:24.240 You don't have, you only have to remember 26 characters and variants on them instead of 10,000,

01:20:28.820 say you teach the phonemes and you get them to aggregate them.

01:20:32.280 And once they get to the point where they can read phrases, they start to read on their

01:20:36.320 own account because it becomes rewarding.

01:20:38.420 If you use other methods, they don't learn as well.

01:20:41.040 Well, one, uh, one thing that I saw with my, my patient, I was interested in their, their

01:20:46.780 level of education, which was catastrophically low.

01:20:51.300 I mean, it was unbelievably low and I would give them something to read and they would, you

01:20:59.640 could see that they had difficulty doing it.

01:21:03.400 Uh, I asked them to read it out loud.

01:21:05.500 And then when they came to a long word, they would say, I don't know that one word.

01:21:11.600 I don't know that one as if English were written in ideographs.

01:21:15.800 In Chinese.

01:21:16.680 Yes.

01:21:16.980 In Chinese.

01:21:17.700 Mandarin.

01:21:18.080 Yeah.

01:21:18.280 Yeah.

01:21:18.580 Definitely.

01:21:19.480 Some teachers teach an ideogram method of, of verbal apprehension, which is absolutely

01:21:24.040 counterproductive.

01:21:24.840 That's how experts read, but that's not how you learn to read.

01:21:28.300 Yes.

01:21:28.920 No.

01:21:29.420 And, uh, and then I would say, uh, when they got through it, I would ask them, what did

01:21:37.780 it mean?

01:21:39.360 And they would say, I don't know.

01:21:42.680 I was only reading it.

01:21:44.060 Mm-hmm.

01:21:44.760 As if.

01:21:46.660 You can't, you, unless you can read phrases at a glance, you spend so much intellectual energy

01:21:53.160 decoding the phonemes and the letters that you can't read for meaning.

01:21:58.280 And that's why it's not rewarding to begin with, right?

01:22:00.620 You have to go through that slog of automatizing the subroutines and, and, and that happens

01:22:06.160 much more, uh, much at a much earlier age in literate households.

01:22:10.200 Yeah.

01:22:10.720 Well, I just, I thought what I found very strange was that there was no sense of outrage that

01:22:18.240 we spend on average a hundred thousand dollars, probably more on each pupil's education and

01:22:31.100 about 20% of them come out functionally illiterate or barely literate.

01:22:38.080 The kind of people that I'm talking about who, who couldn't read a phrase or, uh, who had

01:22:44.100 difficulty sounding it out.

01:22:45.860 And then at the end of it, uh, didn't know what it meant.

01:22:49.860 Now, how is it possible to spend so much money and have these results?

01:22:58.300 And this has a catastrophic effect on their lives.

01:23:01.760 It's obvious that it must have in any modern society.

01:23:04.900 It must have a catastrophic effect on their lives, but nobody seemed to be interested

01:23:10.780 or, or, or, or saw it as a disaster.

01:23:13.660 You'd think the faculties of education would be interested.

01:23:16.580 And you'd think that by now they would have, let's say, say assessed an immense variety

01:23:23.520 of methods to teach children how to read, let's say, because I think pretty much everybody

01:23:27.780 could agree that that would be good.

01:23:29.840 You know, that they would have tried out 200 different educational techniques, subjected them

01:23:34.460 to stringent analysis and that we would see an increase in the efficiency of treating,

01:23:40.600 of teaching children to read that would be in keeping with the increase in technological

01:23:45.520 power that we've seen over the last 20 years.

01:23:47.780 We should be teaching kids to read at a rate that's just beyond comprehension.

01:23:51.380 If the faculties of education were doing their jobs, which they're not quite the contrary.

01:23:56.700 So, yes, that's a good, and I was thinking too, you know, this, one of the things I found

01:24:01.620 really interesting working with people who were dispossessed was, you know, you might

01:24:05.440 think, well, you don't want to impose these external norms on them.

01:24:09.700 There's, there's a form of colonialism that would be associated with that or, or classism

01:24:14.280 or something like that.

01:24:15.380 And, and I suppose that's part of the nonjudgmental stance, but you can always just ask the people

01:24:19.900 themselves and what you find right away is they, they want for themselves pretty much

01:24:25.400 what the middle class person or the upper class person has.

01:24:29.240 And I don't just mean material resources.

01:24:31.760 They, they'd rather be educated than not educated, or at least they'd want that for their children.

01:24:37.280 They'd rather have a relationship if they could figure out how to conceive of it that was stable

01:24:42.560 and loving all of these things that, you know, you could regard as arbitrary.

01:24:46.200 Um, a child would rather have a father and a mother that were around.

01:24:51.200 So there, there, we could derive norms for the direction of our social policies that could

01:24:58.200 be derived from the populations that we're hypothetically trying to serve, but we don't

01:25:03.220 seem to do that either.

01:25:04.520 We can't even agree that all things considered, it would be better to foster, to reward the presence

01:25:11.680 of two parent families.

01:25:13.760 Yeah.

01:25:14.280 Um, yes, well, I mean, all, all that I said in my books, I thought was common sense.

01:25:22.500 Actually, everything was more or less common sense.

01:25:25.820 It wasn't, then it wasn't work of great reflection or anything like that.

01:25:31.100 Um, it just seemed to me, everything was obvious.

01:25:35.840 Um, and yet, um, and yet it takes, maybe it takes exposure to 20,000 kids.

01:25:44.620 Cataclysmic failures to make what's obvious salient, you know, because the problem with

01:25:50.100 what's obvious is that it's invisible.

01:25:51.800 You know, I, I found this out many times.

01:25:53.820 So if I'm called on in an interview, for example, to defend marriage, I think, well, I don't actually

01:26:01.560 know how to defend something that until 10 years ago was taken as a self-evident good.

01:26:07.020 It's not like I have, or any of us for that matter, have a mass, massive array of arguments

01:26:12.960 at hand to justify cultural norms.

01:26:17.120 In the fact that they're norms means you don't have the arguments at hand.

01:26:20.900 They're, they're so self-evident that they're not buttressed by a differentiated description.

01:26:25.300 Yeah, well, I, you see, uh, I, I once, I used to write for a left-wing magazine as well

01:26:35.340 as the Spectator, which is conservative, called the New Statesman.

01:26:38.940 I mean, it's not far left, it's, um, you know, moderately left.

01:26:44.880 And I used to go for lunch there, uh, sometimes, and we would have a discussion.

01:26:50.440 And I met a, a very distinguished BBC broadcaster in the days when the BBC actually, uh, was not

01:26:59.120 terrible.

01:26:59.540 And, um, and he said he'd read me and, uh, then he said, I, I wanted to meet you because

01:27:09.440 I wanted to ask you.

01:27:10.760 I said, uh, he said, uh, do you make it up?

01:27:15.680 Do you make it up?

01:27:17.420 I'll make it up.

01:27:18.740 So I said, well, I'm very flattered that you think I could make it up, but, uh, I don't

01:27:25.300 make it up on the contrary, I, I, uh, I, uh, uh, tone it down and of course I do disguise

01:27:32.040 it for, to, you know, so that people are not recognizable, but, but in essence, everything

01:27:38.260 is true.

01:27:39.260 And actually things are much worse than I described.

01:27:41.580 Well, the thing is think things in a bad situation, things are so bad that it's both

01:27:47.460 inconceivable and incommunicable to the people that it's happening to and to anyone else.

01:27:53.000 Like I've been in families that were dysfunctional for multiple generations.

01:27:57.880 And what I found was that in some situations you dig and you get to a lie and you'd think,

01:28:05.600 God, I finally got to the fundamental lie.

01:28:07.620 And then you'd find that there was an, a lie underneath that, that was even bigger.

01:28:11.840 And then if you dug through that, you'd find another catastrophe that was even more cataclysmic

01:28:16.640 and it just never came to an end.

01:28:18.700 You, you can't communicate what did you say in one of your books?

01:28:24.240 I think it was, you quoted Tolstoy, every unhappy family is unhappy in its own way.

01:28:30.180 Yes.

01:28:31.080 Right.

01:28:31.420 So there's this specificity of misery that's complex beyond belief and, and densely layered.

01:28:38.240 And so I know that reading your accounts, which are, you know, hair raising and heart rending,

01:28:43.140 that's nowhere near as bad as the actual situation.

01:28:47.600 Yes.

01:28:48.720 Yeah.

01:28:49.340 Well, I used to go into the hospital thinking I'd heard everything.

01:28:53.560 I've heard everything.

01:28:54.580 They can't surprise, they can't surprise me, but they always could surprise me.

01:28:58.960 There, there, there was a kind of creativity about, about the miseries that people inflicted

01:29:09.520 on each other without, I mean, what, what was distressing to me about the misery that

01:29:16.220 I saw is that it was not actually, there wasn't a government inflicting it.

01:29:21.300 Not, certainly not directly, it was, it was not like the misery of, shall we say, mass

01:29:27.680 deportation or, you know, civil war or anything like that.

01:29:33.580 But in a way that made it, because I, I used to have not exactly a hobby, but I used to have

01:29:39.340 a taste for going to dangerous countries and places where there was civil war, where everything

01:29:44.800 had broken down.

01:29:45.800 And in a way, I found it less distressing than the kind of breakdown that I was, that

01:29:53.760 I was seeing around me in England, because it was, in a way, it was unforced.

01:30:03.900 Right.

01:30:05.240 Well, let me ask you about that then for a sec.

01:30:07.780 I mean, you're making two arguments.

01:30:11.780 You were making two arguments just then.

01:30:14.040 And I think you, this happens regularly is that there is an underclass.

01:30:18.900 So three arguments, there is an underclass that has a multi-generational component.

01:30:24.940 Things are really, really bad in that class for all sorts of complex reasons, many of which

01:30:31.340 are philosophical, let's say, or ethical or moral.

01:30:35.080 And it's worse than it was.

01:30:37.680 And I guess of the three of those, the one I find least convincing, let's say, or I'm able

01:30:44.220 to accept with less certainty, is the idea that things are actually worse.

01:30:48.580 I mean, people, you know, if you go back to 1820s, and this is maybe where your experience

01:30:53.500 in poor places in developing worlds might be useful.

01:30:56.880 If you go back to 1840 or thereabouts, the typical person in the Western world lived on

01:31:01.620 about $1.90 a day in today's dollar.

01:31:04.200 So below the UN poverty level, life was bloody brutal for people.

01:31:09.060 And, you know, so maybe things are worse now in the lower class with regards to familial

01:31:15.040 structure than they were for a brief period after the Second World War.

01:31:18.780 But it isn't obvious to me that they're necessarily worse by historical standpoint.

01:31:23.260 Well, I mean, it's always a question of when you say something is worse, there's always

01:31:28.640 the question of what you're comparing it to.

01:31:30.720 Well, yes.

01:31:31.780 So, I mean, you know, we could compare it with 3000 BC or 1100 or whatever.

01:31:41.920 I, the things that, it's incontestable that we are vastly better off physically, that's

01:31:51.780 incontestable.

01:31:52.640 And, I mean, when my father was born in the East End of London, and in his borough, when

01:32:01.880 he was born, which is 1909, the infant mortality rate was, if I remember rightly, 124 per thousand,

01:32:11.060 which means that an eighth of children died before their first birthday.

01:32:16.560 And in 18th century London, 50% of children died before there were five.

01:32:24.580 And there was, you know, poverty and filth and epidemic disease and every kind of, so, but

01:32:32.120 I don't think that that's the kind of standard of comparison we should use.

01:32:37.400 And if we take something like crime, violent crime, I think the evidence is that it has

01:32:45.600 increased enormously in a country like Britain since 1900, when, of course, real, there was

01:32:56.620 absolutely terrible poverty by our standards today, the kind of poverty that nobody suffers

01:33:02.640 today in any, in any Western society.

01:33:05.820 And I was very struck by, um, by the story of, um, Jack the Ripper.

01:33:16.000 They're very instructive things, which some people haven't noticed, which was that in Whitechapel,

01:33:22.240 which was regarded as the worst part of London in the 1880s.

01:33:26.940 And, I mean, the poverty was just, again, inconceivable to us now.

01:33:33.660 When a body was found, people ran off to find a policeman, and they found a policeman.

01:33:39.760 And the policeman was armed with a bullseye lamp.

01:33:45.140 He had a truncheon, which he was supposed to draw, only an extremist.

01:33:50.800 And he had a whistle.

01:33:52.400 And that was how he was armed.

01:33:53.760 And he went around Whitechapel, one by one, not, not in pairs, or not in groups, but with

01:34:00.880 one.

01:34:02.400 So, in Whitechapel today, you wouldn't get a policeman doing that.

01:34:10.740 So, I am confused about that, to some degree, because, you know, there, Stephen Pinker, for

01:34:17.040 example, I mean, he makes a pretty strong case that overall, your probability of being murdered,

01:34:22.900 for example, has, again, it's a time frame issue, has declined.

01:34:26.500 Well, it depends where, yes, where you're starting with.

01:34:29.860 So, I think the more powerful argument is not necessarily so much that things have, tell

01:34:36.920 me what you think about this.

01:34:38.840 It could easily be that there's a degeneration of moral standards, let's say, that leads to

01:34:48.200 a higher probability of dispossession, and that you see that in the class that's dropped out

01:34:57.500 of society.

01:34:58.620 And that is a consequence of, what would you say, a failure to abide by the same standards

01:35:08.260 that might motivate middle-class prosperity?

01:35:13.580 And maybe the expectations for that class have transformed themselves over a 20-year period,

01:35:20.600 but it isn't obvious to me, necessarily, that that's associated with an increase in criminality

01:35:25.600 overall.

01:35:26.200 Well, I, again, I think that, certainly in Britain, it's perfectly clear that things

01:35:32.960 like burglary and assault have increased enormously, I mean, they're not increasing further, and

01:35:39.500 they might now be decreasing, but they've increased enormously by comparison with the fairly recent

01:35:47.940 past.

01:35:48.380 I'm not talking about 18th century London when you couldn't go anywhere without meeting a

01:35:54.200 footpad or anything like that.

01:35:56.140 If I'm, I mean, this is slightly, slightly altering the subject a little.

01:36:03.320 I, personally, am not terribly keen on the idea of the underclass, because I don't, I, this

01:36:11.700 suggests that it's a bit like Marxist lumpenproletariat, if you like.

01:36:18.860 This is 5% of the population, or whatever percentage of the population, that is very separate

01:36:24.180 from the rest of the population.

01:36:27.000 Unfortunately, as this was one of the points in my, some of my books anyway, the cultural

01:36:35.040 influence is going from the, is flowing from the bottom now upwards, rather than what used

01:36:45.360 to be the case, from, from middle classes or upper classes and middle classes downwards,

01:36:52.880 so that aspiration was to move upwards, but now there seems to be a cultural, a desire for

01:37:05.600 cultural, um, decline or, um, descent.

01:37:12.180 It seems to me.

01:37:14.820 Yeah.

01:37:15.280 You make that case with the upper class mimicry of, of lower class, let's say lower economic

01:37:20.700 class styles and that, and that sort of thing.

01:37:22.940 Which is a form of, uh, Marie Antoinette-ism because of course they hang on to their economic,

01:37:28.660 uh, advantages.

01:37:30.300 Right, right, right, right.

01:37:33.580 Well, then they get the advantages of being dispossessed and the advantages of being rich.

01:37:37.840 Um, let me ask you, we're, we're going to have to draw to a close here relatively quickly,

01:37:42.720 unfortunately.

01:37:43.200 Um, what, are there other people writing in the same vein as you?

01:37:50.300 And that's one question.

01:37:52.420 The other question is, what kind, what has been the consequence for you of your writing

01:37:59.940 and your popularization of these ideas?

01:38:02.080 I'd also like to know what sort of audience you're reaching.

01:38:05.860 Your, your most successful book, let's say, if you consider success, popularity was Life

01:38:12.180 at the Bottom, correct?

01:38:13.180 That's 2001.

01:38:14.000 And that, that one, I think it's fair to say that that one brought you to wide public

01:38:19.540 attention by writer's standards, by nonfiction writer's standards, let's say, um, what's

01:38:29.800 been the consequence, what kind of criticisms have you faced and, and how have you responded

01:38:34.440 to, and what's been the consequence of that for you as well?

01:38:37.320 Yeah.

01:38:37.640 Well, the first thing is, I don't think many people are writing in my vein.

01:38:41.640 There was a, a, a journalist, a left-wing journalist called Nick Davis who wrote about

01:38:47.500 this and he admitted the phenomena.

01:38:50.600 So he didn't deny the phenomena.

01:38:54.060 His analysis of the causes of it was different, but I, but Nick Davis, Nick Davis.

01:39:00.180 Yes.

01:39:00.760 What did he write?

01:39:01.940 I've forgotten.

01:39:03.020 Okay.

01:39:03.400 I'll look it up.

01:39:04.060 I'll look it up.

01:39:04.600 Yeah.

01:39:05.160 I mean, and I didn't, of course I didn't agree with his analysis of the causes, but he did

01:39:10.840 admit that the phenomena were there, which, and, or, and we are very reluctant to admit

01:39:17.240 that the phenomena are there.

01:39:19.380 And if they are admitted, they're regarded as amusing.

01:39:22.360 There was a very interesting, uh, video made about the Toki, it was called the Toki family

01:39:30.880 in, um, in Holland.

01:39:33.440 And this was a sort of underclass family, which was drinking and taking drugs.

01:39:39.540 And it was making the lives of the neighbors terrible.

01:39:44.180 And they were, I mean, I don't like to use the word degenerates, but that's the word that

01:39:48.940 comes to mind.

01:39:50.560 And, uh, finally, they, they managed something which is very difficult in Holland.

01:39:56.220 They were evicted from where they were living.

01:39:59.520 And, uh, this is almost an, it is an impossible achievement in Holland.

01:40:04.140 But anyway, they went off in their white van and their consequences, they were going on

01:40:10.240 holiday to, uh, their punishment for their behavior was going on holiday to Spain in a

01:40:16.980 white van and, uh, some producer made a little, um, video of them, uh, singing that they were

01:40:28.560 going on holiday to Spain in, in there, and you see them drinking and, you know, just as

01:40:36.540 my, they were just like my patients.

01:40:39.600 And what it was quite clear to me was that they were being exhibited as amusing to the

01:40:46.960 middle classes of Holland.

01:40:49.200 It was just a joke, but these people were not a joke.

01:40:53.020 They were, they'd been very violent to their neighbors.

01:40:55.920 They'd made their lives, the lives of their neighbors hell.

01:41:00.780 And what we saw was the metropolitan middle classes just turning them into a joke as if

01:41:08.140 their lives and the lives of the people around them were not to be taken seriously.

01:41:12.580 So that I think is, I mean, uh, that I think is the attitude of, of the kind of people who,

01:41:20.380 uh, have no contact with this world, as I would have had no contact with the world, with this

01:41:25.840 world, if I, if I hadn't done the work I did.

01:41:29.940 As to consequences for me, uh, haven't really been any.

01:41:35.920 I haven't been viciously attacked.

01:41:37.820 Um, why not?

01:41:42.040 I think, well, first of all, it helps to be a doctor.

01:41:45.860 Uh, secondly.

01:41:47.420 Right.

01:41:47.620 Well, you have some credibility too, because you're, you know, you're actually working directly.

01:41:51.780 Well, that, that was, that I think was it.

01:41:54.060 So this, this was not, this was, this, my ideas weren't just born out of some kind of

01:42:02.080 theoretical, uh, superstructure.

01:42:05.260 So for all your flaws, you're, you're genuinely in the trenches and that comes across, you know,

01:42:11.000 that comes across immediately, just the sheer number of people that, I mean, it's, you saw

01:42:15.440 how many people who had tried to commit suicide?

01:42:18.380 Well, but I think it was 10,000, 10 and 15,000.

01:42:22.020 Right.

01:42:22.300 So that's, that's such an inconceivable number that it, it sort of, I would imagine it would

01:42:26.600 sort of leave critics aghast.

01:42:28.300 It's like, well, I've never talked to three people like that.

01:42:30.820 And you've talked to 15,000.

01:42:32.480 That's, that's actually quite a difference.

01:42:34.260 So the best way of dealing with that is to ignore it.

01:42:38.540 That can, you know, so I, I mean, you say I'm well known.

01:42:42.980 I don't think I'm well known.

01:42:44.420 I mean, uh, it's true that my book has, I don't know how many, I don't know how many

01:42:49.160 my book has, uh, sold.

01:42:51.720 I was very surprised to discover that it sold 13,000 in the Netherlands.

01:42:55.840 And I was surprised because actually what I was describing was England.

01:43:00.120 And I couldn't see how that could interest a Dutch audience.

01:43:04.400 But many people have, um, have said, well, I have observed this many people who are in

01:43:12.320 the trenches, as it were.

01:43:14.040 Uh, and one of the things that really pleased me, I mean, this was possibly the most pleasing

01:43:19.720 thing to me was I, oddly enough, my, the books have sold quite well in Brazil of all countries.

01:43:26.680 I mean, I never, it never occurred to me that they might sell in Brazil.

01:43:30.880 And I gave a lecture in Sao Paulo and people came up afterwards.

01:43:35.980 They wanted the book sign.

01:43:37.020 And there were a couple among them who said, we are from, we were born in the favelas of,

01:43:47.440 of, of Sao Paulo, which actually are not the worst in Brazil, but, but still pretty bad.

01:43:54.500 And it said, we recognized all that you said, all that you said about England, we saw in the favelas.

01:44:03.280 Um, so let's, let's go through what, what you saw and, and then maybe we could talk about

01:44:11.100 what you've seen and what you think might be effective amelioration.

01:44:15.740 So you see, um, fragmented intimate relationships.

01:44:21.800 Is that, is that the most salient feature is the impermanence of intimate relationships?

01:44:28.100 I, you know, yes, I would say so, because I think without, uh, without better relationships,

01:44:36.500 it's very difficult to see how large numbers of people can escape this world.

01:44:41.820 Okay.

01:44:42.380 And so out of that, because the relationships, the sexual relationships aren't bound by mutual

01:44:49.120 long-term support, love, contractual obligations, and all of that, that spins into higher levels

01:44:56.120 of male violence and also to predation on vulnerable females by psychopathic and aggressive males.

01:45:04.000 Yes.

01:45:04.740 Although the, I wouldn't say that the, the women are just passive, uh, victims.

01:45:11.020 They're not just passive victims.

01:45:13.040 I mean, they are victims, but they're not passive victims.

01:45:16.040 I mean, and I guess I was, sorry, I was thinking that they're, they're easier prey.

01:45:21.380 They work with multiple children.

01:45:24.060 They're not, they're, they're easier pickings.

01:45:26.320 That's, that's what I mean.

01:45:27.540 Yeah, that's, that's right.

01:45:29.100 Yes.

01:45:29.460 Right.

01:45:29.880 So the fragmentation.

01:45:31.160 So if you have a fragmented couple of relationships and, and you're a woman, you end up with children,

01:45:36.860 you're no longer 20 and single, you're 28 or 35.

01:45:40.360 You have two children.

01:45:42.220 Um, you're, you're the array of high quality men that you have to choose from is going to

01:45:47.220 decrease substantially.

01:45:48.420 Yes, it was never very great to be right, right, right.

01:45:53.640 Okay.

01:45:53.980 So then we add to that.

01:45:55.540 Um, I studied alcohol for years and its effects on violence.

01:46:00.400 And you can basically say that if people didn't get drunk, half the violence in the world would

01:46:06.620 instantly disappear.

01:46:08.060 So rape, murder, um, familial abuse, the contribution of alcoholism is stunningly high, stunningly high.

01:46:16.640 So maybe that's the third factor that plays in it.

01:46:19.520 Is that reasonable?

01:46:21.200 Well, it's certainly, uh, it's unmistakably, uh, uh, uh, part of it.

01:46:26.780 Yes.

01:46:27.820 Yeah.

01:46:28.100 Say 50% of murderers are drunk when they kill and 50% of victims are intoxicated when they die.

01:46:35.140 Yeah.

01:46:35.620 So it's, it's, it's, it's a major, and it's the only drug, it's the only drug that has that

01:46:41.340 magnitude of an effect on violent behavior.

01:46:43.700 So, um, then low, low educational attainment.

01:46:50.880 Yes.

01:46:51.480 That's obviously very important.

01:46:54.060 And, uh, and interestingly, the state does very little to try to address it or try to,

01:47:02.100 to make things better.

01:47:03.300 Okay.

01:47:03.720 And then, and then beliefs, what, what do you think are the key beliefs that, that characterize

01:47:09.740 the phenomenon that you saw?

01:47:12.760 Uh, well, there's, there's now certainly a sense of entitlement, the sense of it's wrong

01:47:22.400 for anyone to judge.

01:47:24.620 Uh, people have internalized that.

01:47:27.820 So not only do they not judge others, but they don't judge themselves and it's not right

01:47:33.040 for anybody to judge them.

01:47:36.800 So that's an abandonment of judgment or even a demonization of it when it's a crucial thing

01:47:41.500 that you need to separate your, while at the same time, because it's existentially impossible

01:47:48.660 not to make judgments.

01:47:49.920 They are making judgments, but they don't, they are not, they, they don't accept that

01:47:56.140 they're making judgments, that they are making judgments.

01:47:59.860 Um.

01:48:00.820 Attitude towards the future.

01:48:02.880 What's the attitude?

01:48:04.760 Uh, I think, uh, shall we say it's not thought about very deeply.

01:48:11.480 Right?

01:48:11.900 Okay.

01:48:12.160 So that's the first thing is that it doesn't come up much.

01:48:14.920 Yes.

01:48:15.760 What I've noticed is, is that there, there's no implicit sense that the future is something

01:48:21.860 that could be altered for the, for the better by changes of behavior currently.

01:48:26.920 Yes.

01:48:27.880 Yeah.

01:48:28.460 Which is, there's an element of truth in that, in the economic aspect, because they're, you

01:48:38.740 know, they're not going to get good jobs, even if they behave responsibly and so on, they're

01:48:42.600 not going to get good jobs.

01:48:44.000 However, their lives will be better, uh, if they behave responsibly.

01:48:49.300 But another thing that, uh, I would, I, I mean, this is very speculative, but I thought

01:48:56.860 that, um, lots of people have become, uh, stars in their own soap opera.

01:49:04.660 And they prefer a, a, a dramatic life, a life full of incident to a life that would be actually

01:49:15.420 very flat if they, if they did the kind of things that you and I would suggest, their

01:49:21.400 lives might be very flat because they would not be well off.

01:49:26.920 Uh, they would still be struggling economically and so on, and their lives would be very, very

01:49:32.900 dull.

01:49:36.420 Well, that's Dostoevsky's famous criticism of socialist utopia, right?

01:49:40.540 People are fundamentally unable to deal with, uh, satiated dullness.

01:49:46.420 They'll, they'll break it.

01:49:47.700 They'll fragment it just so that something dramatic and exciting happens.

01:49:51.220 And there's definitely truth.

01:49:52.880 And that, I think that's a testament to some degree, to the adventurousness of the human

01:49:56.640 spirit, even though it's something that can, well, manifest it in the ways that you

01:50:00.100 described.

01:50:01.280 Yeah.

01:50:01.540 Well, I think, I mean, I, well, I mean, I've fled, I mean, I can't say that I haven't, um,

01:50:11.260 I haven't liked chasing sensation myself because I, when I was younger, I used to like danger

01:50:17.500 of a certain kind.

01:50:18.560 I used to like going to countries which were dangerous.

01:50:22.340 I crossed Africa by public transport in days when it was impossible to communicate with

01:50:28.540 anyone.

01:50:29.020 There were no mobile phones or anything.

01:50:31.060 So I was in communicado for months at a time.

01:50:33.400 Well, and you did work in prisons as a psychiatrist.

01:50:36.680 Yeah.

01:50:37.040 Well, I, I didn't, I never felt really that was very dangerous, but I, um, you know, countries

01:50:44.400 where there's a civil war and so on are dangerous.

01:50:48.600 And I liked it, uh, but I always felt, I suppose, maybe falsely that there was some

01:50:54.860 higher purpose.

01:50:55.640 It wasn't just a liking for danger.

01:50:57.980 There was some kind of purpose behind it all.

01:51:02.680 Well, there is some, there is some utility in seeking out adventure and, and, and strife.

01:51:08.760 If that's integrated into, uh, uh, um, functional and productive, generous, honest life, that's

01:51:16.320 better.

01:51:16.900 It's better.

01:51:17.900 So, um, obviously in and of itself, it can become a problem, but, um, so how did you handle

01:51:27.080 this emotionally?

01:51:28.760 Certainly, which, um, well, the endless onslaught of misery amongst your, amongst your clientele.

01:51:35.860 I mean, one way of dealing with it, of course, was writing about it because I've, what I found

01:51:42.700 is that when you write about an experience, even an unpleasant experience, it distances

01:51:48.920 you from that experience.

01:51:50.400 So you, you not only having the experience, you're observing having the experience.

01:51:54.640 I was once arrested in, uh, Albania and, uh, and mildly, if you say mildly beaten with a

01:52:05.240 truncheon by, by a, by a policeman.

01:52:07.860 And actually, as he was hitting me, I, I wasn't thinking this is painful.

01:52:12.860 I was thinking, how am I going to describe this subsequently?

01:52:16.040 So that being able to describe it or having the intention of describing it actually distances

01:52:27.580 yourself in a good way, I think from, from your experience.

01:52:30.880 Well, you draw the conclusions that way.

01:52:33.460 And I mean, you're the purpose of your memory in some sense is to draw the appropriate conclusions

01:52:38.600 from your experience to guide you into the future.

01:52:41.200 And so, um, uh, I have a series of writing exercises online at a place called selfauthoring.com

01:52:48.800 that steps people through writing a biography.

01:52:51.780 Um, and it highlights experiences that were emotionally extreme.

01:52:56.140 Um, and because there is plenty of evidence that writing them out, they have to be somewhat

01:53:01.900 distant from you, you know?

01:53:03.900 Yes.

01:53:04.160 You can't do it the next day.

01:53:05.540 Yes, exactly.

01:53:06.340 Because you're just re-traumatizing yourself in some sense, but the evidence is quite strong.

01:53:11.880 I would say that doing that, well, you're transforming the emotion into words and replacing in some

01:53:18.140 sense, the emotion, by the words, you're making sense of it.

01:53:20.900 Um, yeah, there was a very interesting experience.

01:53:24.440 I had an interesting experience with that in that regard in the prison, we had a writer who

01:53:30.200 would come in and teach writing, creative writing, if you like.

01:53:35.540 To interested prisoners.

01:53:37.900 And they were, of course, a selected group and so on.

01:53:41.880 And the writer told me, he came to me because, of course, the, the, uh, there wasn't really

01:53:47.180 any evidence that he was doing any good because, of course, that such evidence would be almost

01:53:54.220 impossible to, to gather.

01:53:56.320 Right.

01:53:56.500 But, but, and so, of course, the, the prison authorities are constantly trying to cut down

01:54:02.040 costs so they wanted to get rid of them.

01:54:04.300 So he wanted me to write in his, uh, favor, which I did, which, of course, sealed his fate.

01:54:10.460 But, um, but, um, but, but anyway, uh, he told me something very interesting.

01:54:18.680 All the people who wrote, um, wrote autobiographically, as you would expect.

01:54:24.700 And they would, they would come to a point in their lives when they had to stop, when they

01:54:32.880 found it extremely difficult to go on, because actually what it did, this was the first time

01:54:39.340 in their lives they'd really ever thought biographically.

01:54:41.820 Or perhaps even thought.

01:54:45.100 Well, maybe.

01:54:46.060 Well, I really mean that.

01:54:47.400 It's like, you know, that people think they think, but what happens is thoughts appear

01:54:51.700 in their head.

01:54:52.360 That's way different than sitting down programmatically and voluntarily going over your life and trying

01:54:58.940 to make sense.

01:54:59.460 Anyway, they came, they came to a point where they couldn't go on at least for quite a long

01:55:04.600 time.

01:55:05.440 And that point was when they realized that all that they'd been telling themselves

01:55:11.560 about their own behavior was actually false.

01:55:16.060 And so I came to the conclusion that this actually, now whether it changed their behavior

01:55:21.280 subsequently, I can't tell you.

01:55:24.180 I don't know.

01:55:25.400 And anyway.

01:55:26.600 Well, you know, you, you probably need to marry that with a plan.

01:55:30.820 Yeah.

01:55:31.380 You know, like the problem is, is that if you, if you realize that what you're doing is wrong,

01:55:37.060 but it's habitual and you don't know what else to do, you're going to do what you know,

01:55:43.840 because what else are you going to do?

01:55:45.540 You don't know.

01:55:46.620 Yeah.

01:55:47.300 I mean, one thing about the statistics in Britain are quite clear that people stop coming into

01:55:53.920 prison on new offenses.

01:55:55.620 I mean, overwhelmingly, not, not absolutely a hundred percent, but overwhelmingly for, for

01:56:01.280 offenses like burglary and violence, they stop after the age of 39 and, and their rate

01:56:09.940 of conviction goes down in the thirties.

01:56:14.120 So there is a kind of spontaneous change now, whether this would accelerate, I mean, what

01:56:19.580 you would want to do is accelerate that change so that they, they didn't have to reach the

01:56:25.080 age of 39 before they stopped committing those crimes.

01:56:29.960 And my guess was that this did actually have an effect, but I have no proof of that.

01:56:37.540 I have no proof that this.

01:56:39.360 Yeah.

01:56:39.660 I don't know of any studies that look at autobiographical writing and recidivism.

01:56:43.260 Um, well, it would be very difficult because it would be very difficult, very, yeah.

01:56:49.600 I mean, it would be difficult to find the control group, uh, and, and so on.

01:56:54.780 So, but I mean, instinctively, I felt that this was a good thing to be doing.

01:57:02.540 Well, insofar as thought is useful and verbal thought is high quality thought, you'd hope that

01:57:09.040 it would be helpful.

01:57:09.860 Um, okay.

01:57:11.300 So how did your conclusions change your clinical practice for the better, let's say, in your

01:57:20.020 opinion?

01:57:20.360 And what about social policy suggestions?

01:57:25.360 Well, the, the first clinical practice, it made me very wary of medicalization of misery.

01:57:31.720 Um, and that's the first thing, so that I spent far more time persuading people not to take

01:57:40.980 medication than to take it.

01:57:42.760 In fact, there's a kind of law in prison.

01:57:44.980 If, if people want medicine, they don't need it.

01:57:47.700 And if they won't take it, they do need it.

01:57:49.960 So, but, um, um, um, as far as social policy is concerned, I'm very, very wary of making,

01:58:00.180 and perhaps this is very cowardly of me, uh, very wary of making any, uh, uh, suggestions,

01:58:07.540 uh, because, uh, if anyone were to take me seriously and the results would work catastrophic,

01:58:16.860 uh, I, I would feel very bad.

01:58:20.200 So...

01:58:20.800 Well, it's an un-factual...

01:58:21.620 Actually, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I think also that actually what we need is a cultural

01:58:29.680 change, and I'm not sure how much the government can bring about a cultural change.

01:58:35.700 So I was trying to, in my way, trying to persuade people, particularly the, the intellect, maybe

01:58:44.960 this is grandiose, but I was trying to persuade intellectuals that a lot of their world outlook

01:58:52.360 was, was bad, and was doing harm rather than good.

01:58:58.520 Um, um...

01:59:00.520 And to be, and to be cognizant of that.

01:59:03.360 To be cognizant of the fact that radicalism translated down the socioeconomic hierarchy

01:59:09.140 is often devastating.

01:59:11.140 Yes, yeah.

01:59:12.200 So that the destruction of the family, which, you know, rich people perhaps can survive,

01:59:19.660 uh, is devastating for people who need, uh, solidarity, social solidarity more than anybody

01:59:27.240 else.

01:59:27.620 And that the social solidarity, which now runs entirely through the state, is a very

01:59:33.620 cold form of solidarity, uh, that, um, that is very unpleasant.

01:59:42.080 That's a good place to stop.

01:59:44.760 Yeah.

01:59:45.400 Thank you very much for your conversation.

01:59:47.620 I appreciate it for, for talking with me today.

01:59:51.220 I hope everyone finds this useful.

01:59:53.920 Yeah.

01:59:54.580 I hope, oh, I don't know whether, how many people, um, how many people watch or see it?

02:00:00.560 A million.

02:00:01.700 A million.

02:00:03.060 Yeah.

02:00:03.600 And do you get abuse?

02:00:06.860 That's a long story.

02:00:08.640 I mean, I know you have a, no, I mean, abuse from this kind of thing, from a podcast.

02:00:14.000 No, not at the moment then, and, and, and, and likely not from this one.

02:00:20.820 Yes.

02:00:21.420 So.

02:00:22.640 Yeah.

02:00:23.120 Good.

02:00:23.840 Well, uh, yeah, I, I mean, I must say I, I haven't really had any abuse, but then of

02:00:31.340 course I don't, I don't, I don't look to see whether people are, uh, abusing me.

02:00:38.220 So what the heart doesn't see, what the eye doesn't see, the heart can't grieve over.

02:00:46.200 Much appreciated.

02:00:47.620 Okay.

02:00:48.140 Thank you very much.

02:00:49.300 Thank you very much.

02:00:50.240 Thank you very much.

02:01:08.220 Thank you very much.

170. Life at the bottom ｜ Theodore Dalrymple (AKA Anthony Daniels)

Summary

Transcript