The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast - 174. You're Next ｜ Dr Rima Azar

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00:00:51.060 Welcome to the JBP Podcast. Season 4, Episode 28 features my dad, joined by Dr. Rima Azar.

00:01:01.960 Dr. Rima Azar is an Associate Professor of Health Psychology at Mount Allison University,

00:01:07.740 Co-Founder and Co-Director of NaviCare, and a former holder of a CIHR New Investigator Salary Award in Developmental Psychoneuroimmunology.

00:01:18.980 Dr. Rima Azar and dad discuss the importance of free speech and what happened with the recent controversy surrounding her blog,

00:01:27.320 as well as what led to her suspension at Mount Allison University in Sackville, New Brunswick.

00:01:33.260 You can find Dr. Azar's blog at BambiSavkar, B-A-M-B-I-S-A-F-K-A-R dot C-A.

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00:03:03.280 Hello, everybody.

00:03:21.420 We've got something a bit more topical today.

00:03:24.740 I'm going to be speaking with Dr. Rima Azar,

00:03:28.220 who's Associate Professor of Health Psychology at Mount Ellison University,

00:03:31.760 co-founder and co-director of NaviCare slash Swans Navi,

00:03:36.100 and a former holder of a Canadian Institutes of Health Research New Investigator Celery Award

00:03:41.800 in Developmental Psychoneuroimmunology.

00:03:45.940 She's co-scientific lead in the three-part leadership of the New Brunswick Strategy

00:03:49.940 for Patient-Oriented Research Network,

00:03:52.680 a provincial network including 120 stakeholders

00:03:54.980 under the leadership of two researchers, two clinicians, and two policymakers.

00:04:00.180 She's a former Canadian Institutes of Health Research Advisory Board member

00:04:04.620 for the Institute of Human Development, Child and Youth Health

00:04:07.740 at the Canadian Institutes of Health Research.

00:04:10.200 Mount Ellison University, where Dr. Azar teaches,

00:04:12.880 is a Canadian primarily undergraduate liberal arts university located in Sackville, New Brunswick.

00:04:18.940 It's been ranked the top undergrad university in Canada 21 times in the past 29 years

00:04:24.840 by Maclean's Magazine, a record unmatched by any other Canadian university.

00:04:29.500 In February of 2021, Dr. Azar ran into some trouble at her university

00:04:34.380 because of views she expressed on her blog while commenting on news articles in the media.

00:04:40.160 So this is part of my ongoing discussions about,

00:04:45.200 or everyone's ongoing discussions about the state of today's universities.

00:04:49.260 Thanks very much for joining me today, Dr. Azar.

00:04:52.280 Thank you for having me.

00:04:53.380 It's unbelievable that I'm on your show.

00:04:56.480 Well, it's too bad it has to be under these circumstances.

00:04:59.480 Yes, indeed.

00:05:00.760 So how long have you been at Mount Ellison?

00:05:04.060 Since 2008, so about 13 years.

00:05:07.560 And what's it been like?

00:05:09.300 What department are you in and what has it been like for you?

00:05:12.160 Psychology.

00:05:13.060 It has been amazing since day one, working with my colleagues, the students,

00:05:19.420 my colleagues across the campus, the community,

00:05:23.880 my good relationships with everyone, the administration, the students, the union.

00:05:30.260 I've never had any problem at all until February.

00:05:34.800 So you like Mount Ellison, you like the community, you're happy to be there?

00:05:38.880 Absolutely.

00:05:40.580 And what undergraduate courses do you teach?

00:05:43.980 I teach courses at all levels, so intro to psychology.

00:05:48.680 So first year, we have sections and I teach 206 students.

00:05:53.520 Health psychology, the second year.

00:05:55.340 I teach a course called perinatal health psychology, third year,

00:06:00.480 and a seminar in my area, psychoneuroimmunology or advanced health psychology.

00:06:06.460 And you've enjoyed your teaching as well as your research.

00:06:09.220 Oh, yes, absolutely.

00:06:10.660 And what kind of research do you do?

00:06:12.900 I do research.

00:06:14.120 Well, my lab is called the psychobiology of stress and health lab.

00:06:18.000 And my research is I'm interested in stress, in coping, in resilience.

00:06:23.300 Now, currently, in relation to families of children who have complex care needs.

00:06:28.660 I work with colleagues at 2NB St. John.

00:06:33.660 It's just amazing what we can do while being at Mount Ellison University.

00:06:39.160 So working in the community here, working across New Brunswick, across Canada, etc.

00:06:44.000 And where do you do your undergraduate and graduate work?

00:06:49.980 Undergraduate at the University of Montreal.

00:06:52.980 I did something called psychoeducation, which is developmental psychology.

00:06:59.200 It's a more clinically oriented program where we can practice.

00:07:03.200 I did a master's in it.

00:07:05.160 So I have that clinical background, but I do research.

00:07:08.980 So I had stress research, clinical research.

00:07:10.980 And I did my PhD in developmental psychoneuroendocrinology, again, University of Montreal.

00:07:17.340 I moved to Toronto and I did my postdoctoral fellowship at the University of Toronto, University Health Network.

00:07:25.380 And yes.

00:07:26.720 Are you originally from Montreal?

00:07:28.960 Originally from Montreal, but originally, originally from Beirut, Lebanon.

00:07:33.180 So I've lived 15 years in Montreal.

00:07:35.760 I arrived when I was 17.

00:07:38.820 And you were in Lebanon before then?

00:07:40.540 Yes.

00:07:41.240 And I did my CGEP college that exists in Quebec.

00:07:45.080 I did a year of college and the university.

00:07:48.780 So you moved to Canada with your parents or did you come out?

00:07:52.560 Yes, at first with my parents, but then they moved back.

00:07:56.240 So I chose to stay.

00:07:58.060 And I always joke saying I represent the Azar family in Canada. 0.92

00:08:02.340 So my parents are very attached to Canada.

00:08:04.840 They are Canadians, but they live in Beirut.

00:08:08.600 And I live here.

00:08:09.660 Ah, okay.

00:08:11.540 So you immigrated to Canada and you lived in Montreal.

00:08:14.660 You went to school in Montreal and then you ended up in New Brunswick and you've been teaching there, you said, since 2008.

00:08:20.420 So it's been 13 years.

00:08:22.100 Yes.

00:08:22.520 So, and what happened?

00:08:26.080 You have a blog.

00:08:27.140 Tell us about that.

00:08:28.980 Yes.

00:08:29.440 I'm going to tell the story of how it happened.

00:08:32.980 Not like, of course, what is going on internally, but what is in the media that I can speak to.

00:08:39.380 But if you allow me first, I want to say that it all started with the blog.

00:08:43.500 But then there have been an invitation for complaints about the blog.

00:08:48.100 And I want to clearly and firmly say and state that I deny those allegations that are circulating in the media against me.

00:08:58.680 So that's clear.

00:08:59.680 So that's clear.

00:09:00.860 I'm someone who strongly believe and respect in human relationships.

00:09:05.680 And I think if we have that respect toward others, self-first, but toward others, it's the best antidote to racism, discrimination, mistreatment of others.

00:09:18.580 So I'm against discriminating against anyone, including myself, of course, but against anyone.

00:09:25.840 So that for me, I want to get it out clearly, please.

00:09:31.080 So tell us about the blog.

00:09:32.940 When did you start writing your blog?

00:09:34.560 In July 2019.

00:09:37.500 And why did you start to do that?

00:09:39.940 I mean, you have your research career.

00:09:41.620 You're an undergraduate or you're a teacher as well.

00:09:45.220 You're working in the community.

00:09:46.480 You have a full life.

00:09:47.980 What compelled you to start a blog?

00:09:51.120 I love to write.

00:09:52.560 And I think it's a reflex that I have from war.

00:09:56.200 So I used to write my diary in Arabic and in French.

00:10:00.140 And I have them with me.

00:10:01.360 They came with me in a box and went across three provinces.

00:10:05.660 So I love to write.

00:10:06.580 So in July 2019, I didn't have the chance maybe to say what I wanted to say on a platform.

00:10:13.040 So I decided to have my own blog and just write for the pleasure of writing.

00:10:18.400 I write about Lebanon, maybe half of the time.

00:10:22.520 I write about Canada, Quebec, here.

00:10:25.500 I just write and express views in relation to what is happening in Canada and in the world.

00:10:33.620 And I think I'm seeing something very worrisome.

00:10:37.980 And maybe that's part of why maybe I'm writing.

00:10:40.760 Because I'm seeing that we are in times where we can't talk about things.

00:10:47.080 Look what's happening in my story.

00:10:48.820 Like people are afraid.

00:10:50.860 They may think things when they are at home privately.

00:10:54.460 But they may not express them publicly.

00:10:56.960 Or maybe because of, you know, political correctness or whatever.

00:11:01.280 I'm not that type of person.

00:11:02.860 Like what I write for Bambi, the name of the person writing, is actually the meaning of my first name, Rima.

00:11:09.540 It means a little deer in Arabic.

00:11:12.060 And Bambi is that deer.

00:11:13.540 So Bambi's afkar are Bambi's thoughts.

00:11:16.160 So what I write is actually whom I am, my own thoughts privately and on that blog.

00:11:23.860 I sometimes write maybe, you know, personal things about birthdays of loved ones or whatever.

00:11:29.740 It's a blog, right?

00:11:30.500 So that's it.

00:11:32.860 And what kind of audience does your blog have?

00:11:35.840 Well, at first I thought it had maybe 10 people.

00:11:38.920 Maybe first myself.

00:11:39.680 I was writing for myself.

00:11:40.720 But I thought family, family members.

00:11:42.740 And then when that story happened, for once I searched.

00:11:46.480 I usually don't have the time to do that.

00:11:48.180 And I thought it was like really getting 2,000 on one day.

00:11:52.640 And then like, I don't know, another day I checked 500, something like that.

00:11:56.500 I thought, oh my goodness.

00:11:57.600 Like I was really thinking, I'm writing, you know, I'm using during the pandemic, my in-laws or my parents sometimes with some issues.

00:12:06.460 Or writing about the Beirut explosion.

00:12:08.440 I interviewed friends about what they are going through with the financial crisis, you know, things like that.

00:12:15.140 Right, so it had expanded beyond the small number of people that you had assumed were reading it.

00:12:21.700 Absolutely.

00:12:22.800 And what were you, okay, so tell me about your thoughts about people's inability to speak.

00:12:29.180 What have you been thinking or experiencing prior to this explosion of interest in your particular case?

00:12:36.640 What had you been sensing?

00:12:38.360 And was that the culture at large?

00:12:40.200 Was that at Mount Ellison?

00:12:41.300 What had you been experiencing that was worrisome to you?

00:12:44.700 That is at large.

00:12:45.780 You know, when we hear stories about people being silenced in one way or another.

00:12:53.320 Or when we see that people are being, I don't know if that's the term in English, but disreputable, I mean, being made into diabolizing them, you know, saying words, you know, this or that, racist or that.

00:13:09.340 Just because someone is-

00:13:09.940 Right, having their reputation attacked.

00:13:11.760 Yes, exactly.

00:13:12.620 And so that, and that is actually, it's ironically a contradiction with where I come from, where we know we have a powerful group or more powerful than other groups, but Lebanon has issues.

00:13:26.400 But people still express their opinions there, despite stories, you know, extreme stories of, you know, killing here and there, you know.

00:13:35.460 But I mean, they can teach freely.

00:13:39.160 They can criticize freely.

00:13:41.360 And I do criticize things there.

00:13:45.880 And I have never imagined in my whole life that my problems would be from Canada and not like coming from where I come from, if you see what I mean.

00:13:57.840 So what did you write about that caused trouble?

00:14:02.060 And for how long?

00:14:03.740 Tell us all about that.

00:14:05.380 It's very hard to know precisely, but I, but, you know, some of the things, it's public.

00:14:11.360 I'm not saying anything that went in emails or in social media from the university or went in the media, actually, if you read the stories of being accused of being racist, of being, you know, all these terms like encouraging sexual violence.

00:14:32.740 So what those were the accusations against you, they were accusations of racism, they were accusations that you were promoting sexual violence.

00:14:42.740 Yes.

00:14:43.960 What else?

00:14:44.620 What else were you accused of?

00:14:45.980 It seems odd to be promoting sexual violence, but I can explain why perhaps people, maybe younger people think in black and white and don't see the nuances.

00:14:57.940 And I can understand that when we are young, sometimes it's like that.

00:15:01.160 But I try, I think I try to bring some perspective by comparing, you know, places worse than Canada.

00:15:09.560 You know, Canada has issues, of course, like all the countries, but Canada is not as bad as we think.

00:15:14.720 Had it been that bad, I would have not immigrated here.

00:15:17.900 My family would have not, I would have not chosen to stay.

00:15:20.860 So, so maybe I may have said in wars, war times or under certain radical groups, you may have a rape culture or rape. 0.94

00:15:32.940 And by no means, I meant to be saying, minimizing the experience of people going through, through horrible things like rape and then that's sexual.

00:15:42.780 So that's absolutely not the case.

00:15:45.540 But, um, I think it's all about the blog, in all honesty, all, all what we hear in the media is not the main thing is the blog is it's disturbing.

00:15:57.640 And exactly, exactly what happened to you.

00:16:01.040 So you were, you were living what I would presume was a pretty comfortable and happy life, as you've described being a teacher and a researcher, you spun off this blog on the side.

00:16:12.480 And then what happened one day, you were notified by the university, tell us exactly the story.

00:16:20.100 I can tell you, but I want to say yes, I'm extremely happy, even in the pandemic, even despite the Beirut explosion and everything, like I'm finding my ways of, you know, living, coping where New Brunswick is amazing for Canada.

00:16:33.140 But, but, but we're also lucky to be in the semi-rural areas where even the pandemic did not hit us as hard as, as strong or bigger places in Montreal.

00:16:43.760 Uh, so in that sense, um, it, I was all okay until that February 22nd, where I can tell you that story because it's my story.

00:16:54.360 That's my part.

00:16:55.280 So, and, and, and it's in the media, actually, I was, um, I was having symptoms of actually like COVID-19.

00:17:03.160 I wasn't sure.

00:17:03.960 And I was very, very, very sick and not, I usually run fast and jump and go on the stairs and I couldn't take the stairs.

00:17:11.180 I would stop, you know, couldn't breathe.

00:17:12.860 And, uh, so on that day, the Monday where it happened, I went for testing was finally negative, but I went, came back, did my work day.

00:17:22.100 And then, and the, at the end of the day, I was lying on the couch thinking that I was resting.

00:17:26.720 I got a phone call from a kind former student telling me, Dr. Azhar, you're, uh, you need to know what is happening.

00:17:35.400 And I thought, are you okay?

00:17:36.720 What is happening?

00:17:37.440 He was worried.

00:17:38.600 Uh, and he said, no, I'm fine.

00:17:40.320 You are in trouble, in big trouble.

00:17:42.240 So, so the story started in the social media.

00:17:45.840 I'm not on social media myself.

00:17:48.180 Um, so for me, I chose that blog because it's what suits my personality, what I, you know, writing and having enough space to write.

00:17:56.920 And so anyways, I enjoy reading social media and I do, but I, I'm not on it.

00:18:02.320 So, so I went, I read quickly and I thought, okay, uh, it's, you know, it was there.

00:18:08.360 And this was where, this was on Twitter.

00:18:10.140 This was all happening on Twitter.

00:18:11.480 Or where was it on Twitter?

00:18:13.220 I don't know if it was happening on, on elsewhere as a Facebook, I guess, but I saw the Twitter myself, uh, and then an email got out of the university publicly.

00:18:22.860 So not on Twitter, on Facebook, um, or the public channels of the university saying, um, you know, it's public.

00:18:30.500 So I'm not saying what is not public, uh, trigger warning that blog, we dissociate ourselves from it.

00:18:36.900 And, and, and, and, you know, uh, or, and encouraging complaints.

00:18:41.220 Okay.

00:18:41.440 So what people, what were people saying on Twitter and who, who was it that was saying it and how many of them were there?

00:18:47.820 Do you know?

00:18:48.640 Um, a lot, uh, and like, it was, it was a big thing on social media, like, um, and, and there has been also at one point, you know, uh, threat of violence on social media and things like that.

00:19:00.300 So it was, it was, it was then, I don't want to forget that part, when the, there were three student organizations asked for my removal from, um, my position at my university and also affiliations, uh, elsewhere, like University of New Brunswick, University of Moncton as well.

00:19:21.540 Uh, so it got really.

00:19:23.420 Okay. So I want to zero in on this. So there's, there's some students primarily on social media, on Twitter primarily, and they're complaining about your blog and their students who are part of student organizations and do you, and then the student organizations themselves, three of them are contacting your, the people that you're working for or with suggesting that you're not the sort of person they should be associating with and asking for your removal.

00:19:52.780 Exactly.

00:19:53.620 And you said there were lots of, of students doing this. And I'd like to get something, an estimate of something like a number. So does a lot mean 500 or does it mean five?

00:20:05.420 Hmm. So in between maybe, I don't know precisely the answer.

00:20:09.980 Well, the reason I'm asking is because one of the things I'm curious about is just how many people have to complain before complaints are taken with some degree of seriousness.

00:20:19.780 Now I've dealt with ethics boards, for example, at my own university, and they have a policy that every complaint should be investigated thoroughly.

00:20:28.060 And I'm not very fond of that policy, particularly because there are a lot of people who cause a fair bit of trouble for absolutely no reason.

00:20:37.140 And it seems to me that complaints need to pass something approximating a reasonable threshold before they're dealt with, let's say, seriously.

00:20:44.920 And so, you know, it's striking when you're talking about this, that you don't know how many people actually came after you because they came after you on, on social media.

00:20:53.900 And it's certainly not in the hundreds. It's unlikely to be, and correct me if I'm wrong, it's unlikely to be in the dozens.

00:21:01.700 Is it 10? Is it 15? And were they students who were actually in your classes or were they just people who read your blog?

00:21:10.080 And what were they objecting to in your blog exactly? What did you say that was in principle?

00:21:15.200 Or do you even know what it is that they're upset about?

00:21:18.720 What I've read is that you made some claim that Canada wasn't systemically racist, that that wasn't the right way of looking at the country.

00:21:27.060 And is there so? And to me, that means now, is that the case now that at a university, if I stand up and say that I don't believe that the lens of systemic racism is the proper way to analyze Canada,

00:21:38.760 especially compared to other countries, that now I'm so reprehensible that I deserve to be suspended?

00:21:43.640 If a couple of people object, is that the situation that we're looking at? Or am I being too hard on the university?

00:21:51.580 Well, I think it's hard to answer that question.

00:21:54.940 I know.

00:21:55.520 The numbers that I know of now, I know them because of what happened and how many people, but before I didn't know anything.

00:22:02.240 I personally found it amazing that my university, my employer that I love and respect, you know, did not call me to tell me what was happening, that I learned it in that way.

00:22:15.760 Did your union?

00:22:17.840 My union is doing what needs to be done, and I'm very grateful.

00:22:22.240 But I didn't know about that.

00:22:25.600 I knew it.

00:22:25.960 That's how I knew it.

00:22:26.960 And then after that first call, friends from Nova Scotia, Amherst, Nova Scotia, called hearing in the news and the radio.

00:22:35.120 It was all everywhere.

00:22:36.220 I have to admit, I may be wrong, but there may have been a flavor for that during that month. 0.96

00:22:44.780 So like it was like my story was sort of a scapegoat for something that is much bigger than a deer, a simple deer, a silly deer.

00:22:55.740 Sometimes we're not allowed to write serious things or silly things or be wrong or change our mind.

00:23:02.520 So what precisely, I don't know, but I do.

00:23:05.320 I personally am allergic to identity politics, given my background.

00:23:10.200 So I may have written things about that or about, you know, it's hard to tell.

00:23:17.460 But you're still not sure.

00:23:18.720 You're still not sure what it is that.

00:23:20.420 OK, so you're not sure exactly who you offended or how many of them there are, and you're not exactly sure why you offended them.

00:23:28.500 And you're so unsure that what you say is that as far as you're concerned, you can't safely write down what you think, despite the fact that you have your opinions, given where you came from, given the fact that you've immigrated here, that you can take a look at Canada from the perspective of an insider and an outsider.

00:23:45.940 You're not sure what your crime is.

00:23:48.000 No, but now because it's in the media, I can talk to that.

00:23:53.140 So I'm sad that I'm not respecting the confidentiality of the process of the investigation report.

00:24:00.620 It's in the media.

00:24:01.560 There is an allegation.

00:24:02.480 Well, you get the chance to defend yourself in any case.

00:24:05.640 I mean, you've been suspended, correct?

00:24:08.040 Yes.

00:24:08.240 In the fall.

00:24:09.080 OK, and you said your university didn't even call you when all this blew up, which is typical in my experience of the way institutions are reacting to this sort of thing.

00:24:17.660 So an unnamed number of students made comments that you have used that are in some sense reprehensible, even though you don't know what they are.

00:24:27.420 And the response of your university, despite the fact that you have tenure, that you're an accomplished scientist, that you're a popular undergraduate researcher, that you have tenure.

00:24:35.680 The response of your university was to not call you, but suspend you for the fall.

00:24:40.400 What?

00:24:40.620 Pending an investigation.

00:24:42.160 An investigation into what exactly?

00:24:44.320 Have they told you what you did wrong?

00:24:46.740 Of course, I saw those complaints.

00:24:49.060 And I can tell you, I think that part I can say is most of them are related to the blog, and that's fine.

00:24:56.900 People have the right not to like what you say, what I say, what anyone else is saying.

00:25:02.360 That's fine.

00:25:03.320 But when we get into false allegations, it's a different story.

00:25:10.260 There's also a difference between having the right not to like what you say on your blog and aggregating behind your back and conspiring to contact all your employers and to insist that you be removed because you're reprehensible and hypothetically a danger to the, let's say, the safety of students.

00:25:28.740 And to have you removed from your position and have your reputation dragged through the mud and have you exposed in the media.

00:25:36.140 I mean, that's not merely not liking what you said.

00:25:38.920 That's an all-out attack.

00:25:40.300 And it's amazing to me that this handful of students, an unspecified number, has the power to move the administration to produce such a dramatic response.

00:25:52.180 And you keep wavering in some sense as to the nature of your crimes.

00:25:57.560 You said you think it might, you think it's likely the blog, but I guess there are allegations that go outside the blog as well.

00:26:03.700 Have you ever had trouble with your students in classes that have resulted in complaints?

00:26:09.080 Never, never, ever.

00:26:09.940 All those who know me personally who can guess who I am in the blog because I think it shows a little bit that, you know, I write a lot.

00:26:21.660 So you can guess, you can see, you can make links, you can see.

00:26:24.560 So, for example, I may criticize a certain politician in one blog, but I can say thank you on another one for doing something good.

00:26:34.480 You know, I'm writing because we cannot comment on media articles.

00:26:39.600 Many times, you know, the comment section is closed, right?

00:26:42.720 So, for me, it's my way of doing it.

00:26:44.920 So, if they...

00:26:45.920 Well, it doesn't seem to me that it's something that needs to be justified.

00:26:49.040 I mean, first of all, you're a citizen of a free country.

00:26:52.460 You have a right to express yourself any way that you see fit.

00:26:55.600 Second of all, you're a tenured professor and your thoughts are actually protected to a fair degree.

00:27:00.840 And it's protected broadly so that you can think broadly.

00:27:05.000 And the fact that this has happened despite your tenure...

00:27:07.780 Well, I guess part of the question that people who are watching might be asking is why the hell should they care about this?

00:27:12.880 And the reason I believe that people should care about this, first of all, is that what happens in the universities ends up happening everywhere else very, very rapidly.

00:27:20.740 Absolutely.

00:27:21.040 And if it can happen to someone like you, it seems to me that it can happen to anyone at any time and any place.

00:27:26.760 Absolutely.

00:27:27.060 And this unbelievable cowardice that our institutions show in the face of unwarranted allegations, as long as they're the right flavor, is something that should be tremendously worrisome to everyone.

00:27:38.720 Now, in your situation is also particularly peculiar, I might say, because you don't seem to be the right sort of target for this sort of targeting.

00:27:47.800 You know, because you're using the terminology that I don't appreciate in the least.

00:27:53.780 I mean, you're female, you're an immigrant, you're at least in principle part of the communities that the people who push this sort of nonsense are hypothetically trying to protect.

00:28:05.920 So why is it because you are in one of these victimized categories and you dared to say something that wasn't in accordance with the necessary moral ideology that you've been targeted?

00:28:22.260 So let's let's find out this.

00:28:24.020 You came to Canada from Beirut.

00:28:26.340 OK, what's your experience of this country, this racist, oppressive, systemically biased country?

00:28:33.180 What's your impression of this place?

00:28:35.220 Look where I am, as a prestigious university, I mean, I love my university.

00:28:39.400 I did my all my studies at the great university.

00:28:42.840 I work with great all the universities.

00:28:44.460 So I'm saying if Canada was that racist with me, at least, because some people would say that's your story.

00:28:51.380 It's not the story of others.

00:28:52.620 I'm not the only one who speaks like that.

00:28:55.400 You lived in Montreal?

00:28:56.840 Yes.

00:28:57.260 For how long?

00:28:58.100 For 15 years.

00:28:59.360 OK, what was it like?

00:29:00.860 I've lived in Montreal.

00:29:01.820 I know what Montreal is like.

00:29:03.320 What's Montreal like as a city?

00:29:04.680 I love it.

00:29:05.560 Montreal is amazing because people are open minded.

00:29:10.380 People are people respect you.

00:29:12.540 You know, they you can say what you wish.

00:29:14.800 You can.

00:29:15.300 It's a Quebec is sometimes mischaracterized, sadly, but I defend Quebec.

00:29:21.700 I don't know if there's something that bothers other some people.

00:29:24.220 So I'm not just from Beirut, Lebanese, Canadian.

00:29:27.640 I have I'm Canadian, first and foremost, but Lebanese, Canadian.

00:29:31.340 I'm Quebecer.

00:29:32.680 I live in Quebec.

00:29:34.040 I love Ontario.

00:29:34.960 When I visited Vancouver and the west part of the country, I told myself, oh, why didn't my family immigrate there?

00:29:40.560 It's fascinating.

00:29:41.440 You know, every place is beautiful in Canada.

00:29:44.100 And so when I come back to what may have bothered them, I think you put your finger on it.

00:29:50.820 Maybe they want it.

00:29:52.320 If you read the about of the Bambi's blog, you see that that deer does not want to fit in any group and put in a box.

00:30:00.620 So I'm supposed to be racialized, you know, be a poor me.

00:30:06.100 I don't have I don't I don't like to be victimized personally in my life, even now with what is happening to me.

00:30:12.800 I am I think I'm a dignified person.

00:30:16.980 So so so in that sense, I like the term invisible minority, visible minority.

00:30:24.820 You know, the terms that used to be used in Quebec, my time when I immigrated, I see myself more in them and then like like put us divided into your this group, that group and, you know, sectorism or not like Canada.

00:30:44.600 Right. So you're supposed to be first of all, you're female. 1.00

00:30:47.500 So hypothetically, you're oppressed because you're female, even though the evidence for suppression of females in academia is very, very it's actually females dominate over males in terms of numerical proportion in most disciplines.

00:31:03.220 It's not the case in the STEM fields, but everywhere else, it's the case, not only especially in terms of graduates produced.

00:31:09.400 It might not be the case at the highest levels of distinction in the academic hierarchy, although that's changing pretty rapidly.

00:31:16.640 So you should actually fit into at least two oppressed categories, female and an immigrant.

00:31:21.180 Right. And and so and so the rule here is that if you're in both of those categories victimized by the intersection between those two categories, that there's a particular political view you better have or else.

00:31:33.260 Yes. And or else in your case is there else you get suspended because a few people complain.

00:31:40.420 That's what the hell's going on with the administration. I don't understand what they're doing.

00:31:45.080 I really don't understand. I can't understand why they didn't have the courtesy.

00:31:48.900 Actually, I can understand why they didn't have the courtesy to call you, because the sad truth is, is that as soon as a few people complain,

00:31:57.320 everyone who isn't directly involved runs scared and looks for someone to sacrifice.

00:32:01.220 Yes, I can. How can I say it? When I reply to the women part, my own sister is a journalist and defends women's rights and in Beirut.

00:32:15.020 And, you know, there, you know, that women have a long journey, right, for equality.

00:32:20.780 And yet my sister does not use terms like, you know, that, you know, toward men and that I don't know how to say it,

00:32:28.780 but in a constructive way, she does what she does.

00:32:31.780 And Bambi may have had a post actually on that. So so that's one thing.

00:32:36.960 The second thing is you're right. There is there is scapegoating, maybe, but there is fear.

00:32:42.400 People are afraid. And I don't just well, the way to the way to deal with fear isn't to offer someone up as a sacrificial victim

00:32:50.320 and then to run hiding into the closet. That's not the way to deal with fear that all that does is feed the mob,

00:32:55.920 as far as I'm concerned, because now they've managed to go after your job successfully.

00:33:00.880 I don't understand, like, what sort of message is that sending to the to the students who went after you to begin with?

00:33:08.640 What the message is, is, well, if you organize yourself into a little mob and bully like mad,

00:33:14.660 then you can make major administrations kowtow to your political will,

00:33:18.940 despite the fact that it massively disrupts someone innocent's life.

00:33:23.600 Well, that's a hell of a message for an educational institution.

00:33:26.820 Absolutely. And it's not just my life, my family, my small family, my larger family in Lebanon.

00:33:33.360 Like, it's like people are traumatized by that story. And there is a silent majority of students or not.

00:33:42.720 Yeah, like 97 percent.

00:33:44.700 Yes. Who are who are like you thinking, what is that?

00:33:49.540 And like me. But me, I am calm. I take things calmly. And I think, try to how to solve things and strategically and what to do, what not to do.

00:34:00.840 So, but I see around me how much people are affected. And I am, of course, affected. But I mean, I'm trying to fight.

00:34:08.440 Who was it exactly that sent you the note signifying your suspension?

00:34:13.960 Well, it's not a secret. It's two administrators, but two particular persons. But for me, it doesn't, at that stage, it's all public.

00:34:29.780 So, all what I'm saying is not that I'm saying something that I'm not supposed to be saying. It's all public and those names.

00:34:35.220 Well, it isn't, it isn't also, it also isn't clear what you're supposed to be saying and what you aren't supposed to be saying.

00:34:40.260 I mean, you have every right to let people know what's going on. In fact, I think in some sense you have an obligation to let people know what's going on.

00:34:47.080 Right. And because look at this isn't right. This isn't, this isn't appropriate, especially given that you're protected by tenure.

00:34:54.860 It's not appropriate anyways, but it's particularly not appropriate because you're hypothetically protected by tenure.

00:35:01.580 And so, on what grounds were you suspended?

00:35:08.240 I still don't understand what you did. Where's the evidence that you did something so reprehensible that a suspension was the appropriate response?

00:35:15.760 Why didn't they say, at minimum, well, you can continue your teaching and we'll take a look at this.

00:35:20.940 But given your stellar record and your loyal service for the last 13 years, continue what you're doing and, you know, we'll take a look at this.

00:35:29.960 But we're on your side given your past behavior.

00:35:34.480 Is there anything that's lurking back there that makes you nervous about your performance?

00:35:40.320 No, but let me tell you something. What happened at Mount Allison University and is happening elsewhere, but particularly here, is a symptom of what is happening in our country or maybe beyond, actually.

00:35:52.060 So, I take it like that. It's a symptom that we do have a serious problem, as you said, like tenured professors not being able to express ideas, debate ideas, challenge students with ideas.

00:36:05.040 We do have a big problem.

00:36:06.420 Well, not only ideas, these, you're, what you claim is not only what was commonplace, is commonplace among the vast majority of people in Canada, but was completely uncontroversial five years ago.

00:36:20.080 It's not like you're pushing forward some radical ideas.

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00:39:11.660 To question the idea that Canada is systemically racist, let's take a look at that a little bit.

00:39:16.360 So when you moved to Montreal, you're an outsider, you're an immigrant, what's your experience there?

00:39:21.800 Did you make friends right away?

00:39:23.320 Were you shunned?

00:39:24.200 Were you prejudiced against in any particular way?

00:39:27.000 What happened to you in Montreal?

00:39:28.760 It was an amazing experience.

00:39:30.620 Of course, sometimes you may meet someone who may say a word that may sound like being racist.

00:39:38.160 So I say so much like it's racist have the right to exist in a society, so-called racist like myself, have the right to exist in a community or in a society.

00:39:49.020 So what I'm trying to say is that it is normal in a society to have people who are truly racist or radicals, but the problem is when radicals start imposing their views instead of accepting that not everyone thinks the same.

00:40:08.380 Like I am, I consider myself as a classical liberal, historically, I thought center left, but I don't like to put words.

00:40:16.380 So center left, some people would say, why are you talking to Dr. Peterson?

00:40:19.640 Some people, most of the people I know would be jealous of me to be talking to you in all honesty, but some people would say, why are you talking, you know, being perceived as being too, you know, right, left things?

00:40:31.320 I don't care about sides. I'm going to tell you something about me and identity politics. When I moved to Montreal, it's full of people of the same background as me.

00:40:41.960 So if you take a cab driver, chances are the cab driver would be either of Haitian origins or Lebanese origins.

00:40:48.560 So sometimes when I open my mouth in French, they can guess my accent or we realize we're both same backgrounds, start chatting.

00:40:55.740 They ask me, where are you from? And I can see their religious symbol in the car.

00:41:00.260 It's actually, I share that same religion, but I would answer from Beirut. I am from Beirut, because it's general.

00:41:07.520 They will say, where exactly in Beirut? I know where they want to come to.

00:41:11.780 And it's not because they are mean, because it's curious, it's built in them.

00:41:15.340 They want to know which religion. And me, I say, oh, the green light, near the green line, sorry, green line, you know what I mean, like between East and West Beirut.

00:41:25.320 So for me, my religion is personal. My whatever part of identity, it's no one's business.

00:41:34.380 So it's like, identities are complex, right? We have multiple, I don't know what I mean.

00:41:41.640 But so that is how I've always approached things. And now that I'm seeing that if we say, if we denounce these things in our society, we are being called racist, we are being called radicals.

00:41:55.940 Like, it doesn't make any sense to my sense.

00:42:00.840 So your experience when you went to Montreal was a positive one, and you enjoyed living in the city.

00:42:05.900 And then you went off, you did well in CGEP, in the upper echelons of high school, and then you went off to the University of Montreal.

00:42:12.320 And you were successful there. Did you encounter anything that you regarded as systemic racism while you were in Montreal?

00:42:19.080 No, not in Montreal, not in Toronto, not in New Brunswick, personally. Of course, we know the history and history of Canada and pockets of residual things that, you know, unfair and unjust.

00:42:33.180 But, you know, I think systemic racism or whatever we want to call it or diversity or things, we have to be careful not to be saying slogans and empty slogans.

00:42:43.080 For me, diversity, I live it. I live it because I allow myself to think, it will change my mind. My spouse is not of the same background as me. Absolutely not.

00:42:55.580 And so that's diversity, right? Diversity is I tolerate. I think you can be of that trend of, we call it, walkism, why not?

00:43:08.960 As long as you don't impose on me, or if you see what I mean, or you can be, you can be even, I'm thinking of religion now, not just Muslim, but Islamist, if you're not doing something with it, if you see what I mean, to society.

00:43:26.720 So my point is, we have the right to think whatever we wish in a democratic society, in a free society, especially in universities, as you said, the lighthouse of knowledge, of exchange of ideas.

00:43:42.120 And if it's there, it's getting dark. How would it be elsewhere?

00:43:47.900 Have you been, have you been able to face any of your accusers? Do you know who they are? Were they, were they former students who were in your classes? Are they people who are hell bent on pushing an ideological agenda, who virtually know nothing about you? I mean, do you have any idea?

00:44:04.380 I cannot speak to that part, but maybe I can say in general that some may, some may not, many not, many not. But I will, I will just say that it is just so unfair, absurd. It's, there is no word that I can describe. It's not because it's happening to me.

00:44:24.520 Surreal.

00:44:24.960 Yeah, surreal. That's the word.

00:44:26.760 Yeah, surreal.

00:44:27.460 And no one should go through that. No one, for whatever reasons, think, you know.

00:44:33.140 Okay, so, so let's talk about that for a minute. So back to that day that you knew that something was afoot, exactly what happened. So a former student alerted you that something was up, and you checked out Twitter, and you saw accusations about your character and about what you've written flying around on Twitter.

00:44:50.340 And the people who were producing these accusations were parts of student organizations. What kind of student organizations were they part of?

00:44:58.940 I think I can speak to that part because it's in the media. So Divest was one of them, Divest Mount A. The other one was Black Student Association. And the other one, ironically, was the Rose Campaign. It's about the massacre at Polytechnique.

00:45:18.460 And I, it means the word to me, Polytechnique is University of Montreal, right? So every year I commemorate, you know, I participate. So that one group was that group, saying that I encourage gender violence, sexual violence, and through my writing on the blog. 0.53

00:45:37.100 And that was because you, because you were pointing out that that such activity is not part and parcel of the central culture in Canada, but an aberration.

00:45:49.580 I was perhaps talking about, I don't know, honor killing in some places, you know, so I read a media about a certain young woman who was killed, and I put a candle, you know, memory, you know, for her memory, and I wrote something, you know, comment about that. So that's because I didn't, it's, it's like,

00:46:11.200 And how is it that you're glorifying sexual violence by doing that? Exactly.

00:46:15.460 I have no idea. I wish I could answer, but I, um,

00:46:21.440 Okay, so that, that particular, um, uh, accusation, not only, I've been thinking lately that there are about, about deception, the use of deception. And, you know, there are lies that are just about true, but they're just sort of, they're not quite true. And so you sneak them by because they're close enough to the truth, maybe to pass.

00:46:42.940 But then there are lies that are the antithesis of the truth, antithesis of the truth, right? They're, they're anti-truths. And it seems to me that the accusations that you're glorifying sexual violence fall in the antithesis category of untruth. Not only is it a lie, it's the opposite of the truth.

00:47:02.100 Yes. But when it's about the blog, I can understand, I can understand because they don't like it. They're emotional about it. They are right. I, that I can understand. But when we come to talk about a behavior, a situation, an incident that has never happened, that is a different story.

00:47:20.740 And how, how, how do you separate out those two?

00:47:24.060 I think it all came in the context of the complaints and the, the, the, the situation of the blog and, and, and I, but I don't know for sure because I remember, I didn't know how it started at the beginning, but, but logically it came when through that, uh, you know, the process of, uh, uh, I call it a speed mobbing because it was like speed dating.

00:47:48.380 Uh, it was so fast. So, uh, uh, um, it felt like, uh, how can I say it with all respect, like having barking dogs coming at you all at once.

00:48:01.740 Yeah. So how about we call this assault?

00:48:04.920 Yes.

00:48:05.940 Yes, absolutely.

00:48:07.420 Look, I've watched lots of people respond to Twitter mobs over the last four years.

00:48:12.020 And my experience has been that being mobbed by 20 people on Twitter, especially when an administrative organization,

00:48:17.960 then climbs in that's enough to seriously damage someone.

00:48:23.140 And most people climb back and apologize as fast as they possibly can.

00:48:27.560 And it's no wonder because it's very unnerving and destabilizing.

00:48:32.560 Yes.

00:48:33.160 And so you, you're someone who, who is obviously deeply opposed to such things as sexual exploitation, clearly.

00:48:41.900 And, and assault and, and the use of arbitrary violence.

00:48:47.200 And nonetheless, you're targeted by precisely that kind of behavior.

00:48:52.120 And then it's encouraged in every possible way, as far as I can tell by the administration who immediately fold in the most cowardly of possible ways.

00:49:01.700 And so I just, this is just, it's outrageous.

00:49:04.920 And I can't understand why there isn't more noise about it.

00:49:08.880 I can't speak.

00:49:09.440 I mean, you're the wrong target, clearly.

00:49:12.160 Thank you.

00:49:12.700 I can't speak for the motivation, but I can speak of not standing up for me.

00:49:17.880 What I see, I saw the whole Canada stood up for me.

00:49:20.460 Like the people writing, uh, amazing, uh, uh, comments on the GoFundMe campaign, people donating, people like, like, like, I, I'm overwhelmed by that.

00:49:32.720 I see people standing up.

00:49:33.680 Right, right.

00:49:34.440 And I'm still into the thanking, thanking.

00:49:36.160 And I want to thank them if they are listening, because I didn't have the time to complete all my personalized.

00:49:41.240 Thank you.

00:49:41.680 Not to each one.

00:49:42.800 So, so 10,000 people support you and 20 people complain.

00:49:46.700 And yet the university suspends you.

00:49:48.640 So, like, what the hell's up with that exactly?

00:49:52.120 I mean, how come there's no proportionality of response?

00:49:55.860 If the, if the overwhelming body of the population is supportive of what you, of who you are, let's say, and what you've done, which is nothing that, that deserves the kind of treatment that you've been through.

00:50:08.240 Why isn't the university as sensitive to the public opinion supporting you as they are sensitive to the hypothetical public opinion damning you?

00:50:16.820 Do you have, like, do you, how do you understand that?

00:50:19.500 Well, you said this was surreal, and I want to delve more into that.

00:50:22.760 So, let, we'll deal with the public opinion issue in a bit.

00:50:27.980 So, let's go back to that Monday.

00:50:30.080 So, this is starting to unfold.

00:50:31.540 You see this Twitter mob developing.

00:50:33.640 There's these student factions, including people who are supporting causes that you support.

00:50:40.720 So, that's the, there was a massacre of six women at, at, at, in Montreal about 20 years ago.

00:50:48.480 And that's commemorated every December 6th.

00:50:50.600 And that's one of these student organizations.

00:50:52.160 You say you commemorate that as well.

00:50:54.400 Absolutely.

00:50:54.760 So, you're actually, there's no reason for you to be perceived as someone who's antithetical to that particular cause.

00:51:01.180 All right.

00:51:01.660 So, these students are organizing.

00:51:04.020 Do you even know if they're students?

00:51:07.800 I don't know if I can answer that question, but they, yes.

00:51:13.460 I think.

00:51:13.780 Okay.

00:51:14.160 Okay.

00:51:14.620 Okay.

00:51:15.260 Okay.

00:51:15.620 Well, it's, it's, it's still stunning to me that you don't exactly know who your accusers, you don't know who your accusers are.

00:51:22.400 You don't know how many of them there are, and you don't know exactly what it is that you've done wrong.

00:51:26.480 And so, what are you supposed to be doing in the interim?

00:51:28.440 Are you supposed to be, like, re-examining your life?

00:51:30.860 Don't you have to take diversity, inclusivity, and equity training?

00:51:37.640 I think it's in the public, so I can say it, yes, in the media.

00:51:41.720 So, that's mandated.

00:51:43.260 It, it was written.

00:51:44.960 So, that's, I'm not talking about something that is internal.

00:51:47.960 I'm respecting all what I should be respecting, confidentiality of the process, but it's in the media.

00:51:55.060 So, I can say, yes, that is something that went to the student in an email, and the staff.

00:52:00.380 Okay.

00:52:00.680 So, despite the fact that you haven't been, let's say, convicted of any wrongdoing, you're required to take diversity, inclusivity, and equity training.

00:52:09.440 And that's despite your background, let's say.

00:52:11.940 So, what exactly, first of all, are you going to do that?

00:52:14.560 And second of all, what exactly are you supposed to learn by doing that?

00:52:18.360 What behavior do you think it is that, or attitudes, are you supposed to mend and alter?

00:52:25.140 I'm going to tell you a story from my past.

00:52:28.500 When I was 14, and you can guess if I'm going to take it.

00:52:31.360 When I was 14, 14, I think, yes.

00:52:34.220 I was the delegate of the class in Beirut.

00:52:37.180 And a group of armed men, heavily armed, you know, Kalashnikov, came and said we should go as students to applaud to a certain politician.

00:52:46.240 And I'm not naming, it doesn't matter.

00:52:47.360 And I forgot whom.

00:52:48.080 So, I stood up and I said, no, we are students.

00:52:51.780 Our place is here.

00:52:52.700 Not to go for, you know, political ideology.

00:52:54.900 We're not going.

00:52:55.940 And they insisted.

00:52:57.240 Actually, they took all the students of all the schools around.

00:53:00.180 And a friend of mine that I recently met in Beirut told me, you know what, Hima, do you know why you did not go?

00:53:06.700 I said, she reminded me of the story.

00:53:08.600 I went to hide in the washroom.

00:53:10.560 I did not go with them.

00:53:12.580 So, they were heavily armed.

00:53:14.520 And I did not go with them.

00:53:18.580 I think I'm also, I think I'm a reasonable, flexible person.

00:53:23.160 Had that been at the beginning, I would have perhaps considered, perhaps, going and listening, okay, or perhaps.

00:53:31.880 But after all this, does it make any sense?

00:53:36.060 That's all I'm going to say.

00:53:38.240 It's like, it's, I know that, let's not just talk about my story because it's the symptom.

00:53:42.940 It's happening across.

00:53:44.800 It's like, it's insulting to people who do not need to be taking such things.

00:53:56.020 It's imposed.

00:53:57.240 Yeah, you might say that.

00:53:58.420 I mean, you're a highly educated person.

00:54:01.280 It's not easy to attain a faculty position.

00:54:03.540 It's actually quite difficult.

00:54:04.820 And only a minority of people manage it.

00:54:07.060 You have to be smart.

00:54:08.740 And you have to be curious.

00:54:09.980 And you have to be at least a decent teacher.

00:54:11.980 And you have to be a good researcher.

00:54:13.340 You have to be able to work with people, your co-authors, your peers.

00:54:17.520 You have to be efficient.

00:54:19.140 It's a hard job.

00:54:20.540 And then, and it's also a job that requires, and you also have a clinical background.

00:54:25.120 So you're actually technically social, socially skilled and highly trained.

00:54:31.640 And then the question is, just exactly who the hell would be teaching the diversity, inclusivity, and equity course?

00:54:37.680 So that would be someone, in all likelihood, with a master's in social work,

00:54:40.720 who is going to lecture you on your ethical duty to others and assume that you are in a position that requires exactly that kind of education,

00:54:50.000 despite the fact of your advanced training.

00:54:52.240 And that speaks to the motivation behind this sort of thing as well, especially when it's forced.

00:54:57.060 And because by forcing that on you and having you accept that, that's essentially an admission of your guilt and the necessity that you've come to realize for yourself that you need to be retrained by someone who holds those particular political opinions and that level of training.

00:55:13.100 There's no evidence whatsoever, you likely know this as a psychological researcher, that any of this diversity, inclusivity, and equity training,

00:55:21.900 any of this implicit bias retraining has any positive effects whatsoever.

00:55:26.420 There's no evidence that the implicit association test that purports to measure implicit bias is a valid test.

00:55:33.340 It certainly isn't accurate enough to be used for the purposes that it is being used for.

00:55:37.540 It's turned into a political weapon.

00:55:39.520 There's no excuse for it whatsoever.

00:55:42.140 And the human resources departments that are pushing this sort of thing, it's reprehensible right to the core.

00:55:47.400 And I can't believe that institutions are falling prey to the blandishments of those who are pushing this.

00:55:53.460 That's a pure power play to speak to motivation.

00:55:56.680 So, and it puts you in your place, which is exactly what's being hoped for, whatever that place is,

00:56:02.720 since it's not even clear what it is that you did.

00:56:06.680 Absolutely.

00:56:07.120 I still don't know what it is that you did.

00:56:10.580 But the thing that's so frightening is it doesn't really matter.

00:56:13.700 Okay, so back to Monday.

00:56:15.300 So a Twitter war is developing.

00:56:16.900 There's student groups who are sending complaints about you to who?

00:56:24.500 Supposedly to the university.

00:56:26.540 Oh, yeah, there's an anti-racism policy.

00:56:29.640 It's in the email.

00:56:30.380 I'm not saying something that I'm not supposed to be saying.

00:56:32.520 It's an anti-racism response policy.

00:56:37.020 Okay, so there's an administrative branch at the university set up to deal with anti-racism, let's say.

00:56:42.880 So it's a political branch.

00:56:44.240 It's a politicized branch.

00:56:45.620 And their job is to do exactly to you what they did do to you.

00:56:50.100 And so those were the people who were complained to.

00:56:52.240 What about your department?

00:56:54.560 You mentioned political branch.

00:56:55.860 I want to say it's a policy.

00:56:57.160 It's an internal policy, like harassment policy.

00:57:00.580 Yeah.

00:57:01.700 And there's an administrative bureaucracy that's associated with it.

00:57:05.280 And this is an expression of their ability to fulfill their mandate, let's say, given that they're searching for things to do.

00:57:14.940 And you're the sort of racist that they've decided to target, which shows you exactly how much useful activity there is lying around.

00:57:23.680 If you're the sort of person they're going after, the racists at Mount Ellison must be in relatively short supply.

00:57:30.660 Yeah, I would say, yes, I agree, because if it's like, as I told you, classical liberal and the center, you know, if that is not tolerated, how can we tolerate someone to the real right, which rather have the right to be right, right?

00:57:46.480 But real right or so like it's it's it's too much like we I don't know what to say, because you can look at it from different angles.

00:57:55.600 There's that political thing, that freedom, academic freedom, definitely, but also free expression in the world, because societies look up to universities as a foot for that.

00:58:10.020 So if professors cannot talk, cannot communicate and debate, I don't I didn't see any students from my university writing on the blog.

00:58:22.140 I saw someone who wrote and I replied, but not from the university, but no one like why don't they challenge that Bambi and write and say doesn't, you know, when the story happened, it didn't happen.

00:58:38.100 It could have been a platform for debate for, you know, exchanging.

00:58:43.060 If you buy the if you buy the line that people aggregate themselves into groups based on power and pursue their own selfish in their own selfish interest within that group, there's no space for free debate between individuals.

00:58:58.040 That's not part and parcel of the entire doctrine.

00:59:00.440 It's not like it's not like there's no free speech within the confines of doctrines like that, that the notion doesn't exist because there's no sovereign individuals.

00:59:14.720 There's no exchange of rational information.

00:59:17.420 There's no place for debate.

00:59:19.020 So the whole issue of free speech is moot.

00:59:20.980 There's just power and the expression of power between different groups.

00:59:25.260 And there is fear because when you silence or try to silence someone or isolate someone, people around are afraid.

00:59:33.340 Yeah, well, I can't I can't help but think that those who claim that social institutions are predicated on the arbitrary expression of power are precisely those who predicate their social behavior on the on the principle of power.

00:59:45.200 And they misread everyone else and they misread everyone else and I don't think there's any evidence at all that well socialized people who are functioning productively and cooperatively in society are basing their social interactions on the arbitrary expression of power.

00:59:58.840 That isn't my experience with people unless they're unless there's something wrong with them and then they default to power in all their relationships.

01:00:07.860 But there's no place for rational debate in the in the in the on the ideological front that insists on such things as systemic racism.

01:00:17.840 Okay, so Monday, back to Monday again, how long after these complaints arise, are you sanctioned? Are you are it? How long is it until you're told that you can't teach in the fall?

01:00:31.180 I think I'm not talking about the details, but there has been a process, of course, the investigation and the report and and and after that, the decision was that from I'm suspended without pay from now until December the first and and it's without pay as well without pay.

01:00:51.340 And did the report suspending you without pay detail your hypothetical crimes that the report the decision made based on the independent report and who who was who made up this independent who generated this independent report maybe these things I can talk about because it would be part of arbitration and all that but I it's not that I don't want to chat with you, but I know I understand.

01:01:17.600 But it's funny that the privacy of the privacy of the people that are doing this to you is protected and your privacy isn't I actually don't think that's funny at all.

01:01:25.640 And I suspect they're doing just fine with their continual salary payments and their lack of suspension over the next few months.

01:01:32.960 So it seems like a pretty one sided power play to me.

01:01:36.060 You can't say anything.

01:01:37.520 No, you're suspended, but they go and yet they're protected.

01:01:41.660 Yes, and in the media, the same story that is false has been repeated.

01:01:47.600 And I recently has been repeated.

01:01:49.100 So, yes, definitely.

01:01:50.760 You're absolutely right.

01:01:51.880 It's what's the false story.

01:01:54.040 The false story.

01:01:55.520 I think because of the media, I can talk about it.

01:01:58.580 The false story is that I when you may be and there's a net topic that the student is saying that I did not I did not want to use the pronouns.

01:02:10.040 Of the student and and that I said the student is brainwashed.

01:02:16.280 And from what the discussion chat so far you had with me or what you've read or what my values, what I told you about respect, would I ever tell someone these things in those terms?

01:02:30.660 It's it's I don't know how to say it.

01:02:34.220 Well, we already decided that it was surreal.

01:02:38.940 It's surreal.

01:02:39.840 It doesn't.

01:02:40.360 Yes.

01:02:41.760 No, no.

01:02:42.680 And OK, so.

01:02:46.800 Can I say something myself?

01:02:48.600 Yeah, you can say anything you want.

01:02:50.760 It's actually about that story of the pronouns.

01:02:54.620 And, you know, some people like to be called with pronouns.

01:02:58.340 Some people don't like to be called with pronouns.

01:02:59.820 Some people have pronouns after their name.

01:03:01.580 You don't.

01:03:02.080 I don't.

01:03:03.120 And it's fine.

01:03:04.240 You know, when we want to be respectful.

01:03:06.020 It's not fine if it's insisted upon.

01:03:08.580 And the punishment is that if you don't use them, you lose your job.

01:03:11.880 That's actually not the least bit fine.

01:03:14.100 I'll tell you more than that.

01:03:16.000 Then I'm happy you said that, because when when your story came out, I listened carefully and I would I with my heart.

01:03:23.960 And actually, Bambi spoke about your book at one point and the attempt to try to cancel it.

01:03:29.960 And so so I listened.

01:03:32.040 I listened to people's opposite.

01:03:34.520 They were angry at you and all that on TV.

01:03:36.680 And I thought, OK, what is going on here?

01:03:39.760 And I told myself, I think he's seeing something we're not seeing, you know, something when you talk about imposing control.

01:03:47.020 I could see it because I come from a place where I could see these things happening.

01:03:51.240 So I saw it.

01:03:52.080 At one point, I stepped back and I said, but is it a big deal to refuse to reserve?

01:03:56.560 You know, I had that thought.

01:03:58.060 Now, yeah, well, believe me, I've had that thought many times.

01:04:01.180 You were right.

01:04:02.580 Now I can tell you my story is the evidence of how much you were right.

01:04:07.020 I'll tell you why.

01:04:08.040 Because I didn't even say it.

01:04:10.100 If it's what can happen to you, even without saying it.

01:04:15.060 If you see what I mean.

01:04:16.400 I see what you mean. 0.74

01:04:18.980 It's the same slouching monster that I saw five years ago.

01:04:22.660 It's not amusing.

01:04:24.060 It's not fun to see.

01:04:26.280 I don't find it.

01:04:27.420 I don't find it.

01:04:28.560 What would you say?

01:04:29.760 Reassuring to be right.

01:04:31.500 I would rather have been wrong.

01:04:34.000 I could see a power play.

01:04:35.300 And I could also see a corruption of the idea of identity.

01:04:39.360 It's not that identity isn't merely what you feel you are at any given point.

01:04:44.440 And identity is something you negotiate with others.

01:04:46.700 You have to negotiate it with others because they have to know what the rules are.

01:04:50.300 And if you can change the rules and make them arbitrary at any point, then how can anyone play with you?

01:04:54.440 And maybe if you're setting up a game that no one can play, you're doing that because you're the one that has the problem with power.

01:05:00.580 Just maybe.

01:05:02.560 And so maybe that's a club that can be then used on people if you're of the nature that wants to use a club.

01:05:09.320 It's like, why the hell are these people after you?

01:05:11.440 You don't seem particularly harmful to me, as far as I can tell.

01:05:15.920 Thank you.

01:05:16.520 You know, I mean, your research is devoted towards helping people.

01:05:20.460 You're an educator who's obviously, what would you say, motivated by the desire to teach young people and to bring them forward, not to exercise your arbitrary power over them.

01:05:32.960 And yet you're targeted by this.

01:05:35.600 So what's this done to you and to your family?

01:05:41.180 What breaks my heart the most is my family in Beirut.

01:05:45.400 That's what breaks my heart the most.

01:05:47.000 But, of course, my spouse as well and all the friends and everyone.

01:05:50.940 But my parents, they are in their 80s.

01:05:52.840 They went through the Beirut explosion.

01:05:55.400 They survived it.

01:05:57.380 There's the financial crisis.

01:05:59.760 There are implications.

01:06:01.800 A lot of implications to many people.

01:06:03.560 And people who are just sad to see this happen.

01:06:07.660 It is sad.

01:06:08.700 It's sad.

01:06:09.660 Yeah, it's sad.

01:06:10.760 It is sad.

01:06:11.420 And why sad?

01:06:12.120 Why do you say sad exactly?

01:06:13.920 And the people that are responding to this, what's sad about it?

01:06:17.800 I mean, you guys had your share of trouble in Lebanon.

01:06:20.180 Because we are at that stage in Canada.

01:06:23.560 It breaks my heart, maybe the most, to think that, like, I tell you the effect.

01:06:30.280 One friend, a childhood friend, when she read the news about it, because it's everywhere, it was in Spanish written somewhere.

01:06:38.120 I don't know.

01:06:38.380 She called me, they were thinking of immigrating to Canada, and she said, I'm scared now.

01:06:43.300 Maybe I should wait a little bit.

01:06:44.740 Maybe Lebanon's situation will get better. 0.93

01:06:46.820 She said that.

01:06:48.580 And I was like, I said, it's a period of time, history, it shall pass.

01:06:54.020 You know, I don't know.

01:06:54.780 But I said, it's true that it is unimaginable.

01:06:58.880 Like, in Lebanon, we look up to Canada, to the Western world, if you want, or by extension, like, you know, people value democracy.

01:07:10.640 People get killed sometimes when it's extreme because of their thoughts.

01:07:14.300 But when people can say whatever they wish on Facebook, social media, I criticize, I don't know how to say it, but I criticize one powerful group, but not only everyone, but that powerful group so many times.

01:07:31.600 And yet, I did not get that treatment from that powerful group there.

01:07:36.280 And so what's, what, what do you, what do you, what are your plans now?

01:07:45.760 Your life has been thrown up in the air.

01:07:48.080 I mean, and you must have been going through your teaching career with a fine tooth comb trying to figure out, you know, if you did.

01:07:55.960 I mean, what's really horrible if, if something like this happens to you, if you're a decent person, is that you torture yourself to death about what your guilt might be.

01:08:06.280 Yeah, but, you know, as I said, like, my, my, um, people around me are losing sleep.

01:08:15.820 I, I, I, I'm not yet, I don't know what's going to happen, but not yet.

01:08:19.880 Because you know what, I think when we know ourselves, we know the truth, we, it's, it's, like, no matter what you're going to be reading about you, this is not you.

01:08:30.160 Like, you are you, Dr. Peterson.

01:08:32.100 I know you, I'm from already, and I hear about you, you talk to me.

01:08:35.840 It's not what people would say, you know, nasty things.

01:08:39.300 Sometimes you went through difficult times.

01:08:41.680 Some people would say he, he deserves that.

01:08:44.480 Like, I, I, it's, I get out of my mind when I see someone saying that to anyone, but particularly to you for all what you did and went through and all that.

01:08:56.160 So, um, it's just sad.

01:08:58.800 Again, I'm saying we got to that stage in Canada where we don't want to listen.

01:09:03.320 Like, why can't I say, what is the meaning of, let's say, systemic racism, because you mentioned it.

01:09:08.780 What does it mean?

01:09:09.800 As scientists, we, uh, define, you know, we measure, we chat about concept.

01:09:14.600 We write, uh, reviews like concept analysis.

01:09:17.280 We talk to stakeholders, literature, all that.

01:09:19.720 So why can't we say, okay, what are we talking about here?

01:09:22.560 Where does it, is it coming from?

01:09:24.000 Where is it imposed on us from, uh, you know, uh, I, I think I have some hypothesis with some of my expertise, but I just know that it's, why can't we say it?

01:09:36.640 Like, it's, is it a dogma?

01:09:38.440 Is it an idea?

01:09:39.660 Is it, what is it?

01:09:40.620 Why, why, why can't we?

01:09:42.800 Well, I think it's a claim.

01:09:44.200 I think it's a claim.

01:09:45.540 The fundamental claim is quite straightforward.

01:09:47.560 I think, I think the claim is that people who hold positions of authority.

01:09:52.480 First of all, there aren't positions of authority.

01:09:54.800 There are positions of arbitrary power.

01:09:58.320 And though the people who hold those, so all hierarchical societies are based on positioning of arbitrary power.

01:10:05.940 And that power serves that hierarchy and the people within it.

01:10:09.440 It exploits those at the bottom of the hierarchy.

01:10:12.000 It exploits those on the outside of the hierarchy.

01:10:13.760 If you hold one of those arbitrary positions of power, then you got it through ill-gotten means.

01:10:19.460 And that's the fundamental claim of systemic racism, or that's what's underlying it.

01:10:25.580 It's not the fundamental claim of systemic racism, exactly.

01:10:28.360 It's more like the fundamental claim of the ideology that generates slogans like systemic racism.

01:10:33.680 And it's part of the assault on the idea of merit.

01:10:37.660 And so I was writing about that today.

01:10:39.320 I mean, the things that, you can tell me what you think about, let's look at hiring practices at Canadian universities, for example.

01:10:46.680 Okay, so my sense has been this.

01:10:49.780 I've sat on many, many hiring committees.

01:10:51.580 The first is that they're extremely merit-based.

01:10:55.820 So the first thing that the typical committee does is they rank order candidates.

01:11:00.880 And there's like 100 candidates for every position that's awarded.

01:11:04.160 So there's plenty of people to choose from.

01:11:07.280 They look at publications, quality of publications, because as a professor, one of the things you're supposed to do is generate publications.

01:11:17.280 So if you're a graduate student and you generated many high-quality publications, that's a good predictor that you're going to do the same thing in the future.

01:11:24.480 They look at teaching ability.

01:11:27.340 That'd be secondary at most places, especially if they're research-oriented.

01:11:30.800 Be more primary at a teaching-oriented university.

01:11:33.120 So teaching ratings from students, so the stakeholders have a say in that that's a powerful say.

01:11:41.740 And then also evidence of interpersonal ability.

01:11:46.380 So you look at letters of reference and so on, documenting the candidate's ability to be a good colleague and to get along with people and not to be a troublesome thorn in the side, let's say, for arbitrary reasons.

01:11:59.440 And so those are perfectly reasonable hiring criteria.

01:12:02.880 They have nothing to do with the maintenance of the power of any particular group.

01:12:07.140 And then there's even more than that, because once the candidate pool has been winnowed out,

01:12:12.560 the probability that a university hiring committee is going to give preferential treatment to someone who's qualified within that pool,

01:12:21.160 but who shows, who's, let's say, a member of a group that's been historically disadvantaged, to use all this bloody terminology,

01:12:30.940 the probability that that person is going to get more than a fair shake is very, very high.

01:12:36.100 And that's been the case for at least 30 years.

01:12:40.060 And it isn't clear to me that that's always been for the best, but nonetheless, that's the situation.

01:12:44.560 So to think about those institutions, Canadian universities, American universities, too, for that matter,

01:12:50.880 as somehow being predicated on arbitrary power is, it's not, again, it's not a lie.

01:12:56.580 It's an anti-truth.

01:12:57.780 It's exactly the opposite of the real situation.

01:13:00.840 And, you know, you might say, you look at Canada, I know one of your crimes was suggesting that among countries,

01:13:07.720 rather than among the hypothetical utopian visions of ideologically addled students,

01:13:14.440 Canada does pretty damn well by historical standards and by current world comparative standards.

01:13:22.760 You know, and you might say, well, there's still detrimental behaviors that are embedded within the culture.

01:13:27.820 But in the case of university hiring committees, it isn't obvious to me how they could possibly be more fair than they are.

01:13:34.940 They strive so hard to be fair that they bend over backwards, at least to some degree, in the opposite direction.

01:13:42.300 And so, so, okay, so you didn't attain your position as a consequence of some arbitrary expression of power.

01:13:49.000 You're actually qualified to do the job that you have.

01:13:52.240 And yet you're going to be mandated to take diversity, inclusivity and equity training.

01:13:57.460 You know, I've been thinking for a long time where the line is that divides the reasonable left from the unreasonable left.

01:14:03.560 And it's certainly equity conceived as equality of outcome.

01:14:08.580 When you push that line, that's too far.

01:14:10.960 But I think the whole diversity, inclusivity and equity slogan, mantra, people who mouth that and push it, they've gone too far.

01:14:18.800 That's the line right there.

01:14:20.380 And you can tell that because it's being imposed by fiat on people like you.

01:14:25.780 I agree.

01:14:26.700 I agree.

01:14:28.600 It's actually, it breaks my heart that the left has been, the beautiful left that I know hijacked type of thing.

01:14:35.600 But that movement that is radical, insane, surrealistic.

01:14:41.480 I don't know.

01:14:41.740 But I don't think it's just the left.

01:14:45.240 I think it's spreading.

01:14:46.660 But I mean, that left that I would think, you know, the rights of workers, the rights of, you know, immigrants. 0.73

01:14:54.500 Like, I'm thinking that whatever movement is using, that's my personal opinion.

01:15:00.660 And maybe I would get shot at for saying it.

01:15:04.500 Well, you've already been shot at.

01:15:07.080 So now you can say what you want.

01:15:08.780 Yes.

01:15:09.080 So I think that it's, how can I say it?

01:15:15.320 It's not because someone is of my same background, precise place where I came from, religion, whatever, that that person would represent me better than someone else who is more competent, as you said, who makes more sense.

01:15:30.780 Right.

01:15:31.020 Well, that's an insane part of this doctrine to begin with.

01:15:33.540 The idea that these arbitrary groupings, your gender, your sex, your race, means that you have something more profound in common, for example, than with people who share more differentiated elements of your character, your ambition, your values, more importantly.

01:15:51.900 Yes.

01:15:52.400 And I'll tell you, in Lebanon, they have quotas based on religion.

01:15:56.780 I get obsessed with religion.

01:15:58.260 And to be a president, you have to be Christian, to be prime minister, Sunni Muslim, et cetera, et cetera. 0.53

01:16:05.160 So I cannot be a president there and not write a specific part of whatever, not prime minister, you know.

01:16:12.060 So all this is that the people of Lebanon right now are saying no to sectarianism.

01:16:18.060 They know it didn't work.

01:16:19.200 It was unfair.

01:16:20.220 They don't want it.

01:16:21.400 Whereas here, we are trying to bring that to us here.

01:16:26.360 There is a reason why all our collective agreements protect merit, right?

01:16:30.940 And merit, and you said merit-based hiring and all that.

01:16:34.360 But I do believe personally that it is insulting for me to tell me that I'm going to get a job because I am Lebanese or I am this or that.

01:16:44.120 Well, it's particularly insulting if you're qualified.

01:16:47.340 Absolutely.

01:16:48.480 So it is particularly insulting if I'm qualified, definitely.

01:16:53.200 And so to come to tell me that, let's say, if we're going to talk about one part of the identity, you mentioned gender, but it could be, let's say, skin color, right?

01:17:01.100 So what does someone from Palestine who happens to have a black skin have in common with the president of the United States, a former president, who happens to have a, do they have in common, like, or someone from Haiti driving a cab in Montreal? 0.59

01:17:17.900 No, there's culture.

01:17:19.060 There's language.

01:17:19.640 Well, look, as social scientists, we could agree that one of the factors that might give people some similarity of experience would be race or ethnicity.

01:17:31.100 Right.

01:17:31.560 I mean, but it's one factor among many.

01:17:33.780 Yes.

01:17:34.440 And if I was writing today about what predicts success in complex Western organizations.

01:17:39.440 Okay.

01:17:39.740 So what predicts success if you look at it psychometrically?

01:17:42.900 So you break down all the attributes of people and you decide which measurable attribute would be associated with socioeconomic position, let's say.

01:17:51.460 Well, the best two predictors are general cognitive ability, which is basically ability to learn and to deal with complex abstractions.

01:17:58.800 And that predicts performance in high complexity jobs and high complexity jobs involve a lot of change and necessity for learning.

01:18:06.820 So ability to learn and ability to solve complex problems predicts success in jobs that require the ability to learn and the ability to deal with complex situations.

01:18:16.420 And that's measurable.

01:18:17.740 SATs measure that.

01:18:19.340 GREs measure that.

01:18:20.560 The LSATs measure that.

01:18:21.740 And they don't measure it perfectly, but they measure it better than anything else we know.

01:18:25.240 And the other thing that predicts universally in some sense across job categories is conscientiousness.

01:18:31.400 And that's hard work, essentially, industriousness, orderliness, but industriousness predicts better.

01:18:36.480 So amount of hours put in, the ability to formulate, ability and willingness to formulate and maintain social contracts.

01:18:43.360 So there's honesty and integrity associated with that.

01:18:45.840 So the research literature indicates that the best predictors of success are ability to learn and conscientiousness.

01:18:53.040 It's like, well, come up with a better definition of merit than that if you dare, because you can't.

01:18:59.520 Now, openness to experience, which is a creativity trait, predicts entrepreneurial ability and creative ability.

01:19:06.020 And extroversion predicts sales ability.

01:19:08.420 And agreeableness predicts, say, nursing and the capacity to take care of people.

01:19:12.260 There are other personality attributes that are relevant, but those are the main ones.

01:19:16.220 So how is that not just dead set evidence for the existence of as functional a meritocracy as we've been able to manage, right?

01:19:25.020 I mean, it's distorted by power claims.

01:19:27.340 It's distorted by deception and bad hiring practices and nepotism and all the things.

01:19:32.180 But that's not central or core to the system.

01:19:35.260 I don't know any reasonably well-functioning organization in the West where that isn't the case.

01:19:43.740 Businesses as well bend over backwards to be more than fair in their hiring practices.

01:19:48.140 And, you know, they want competent people.

01:19:50.540 And you can define competence and you can define and measure merit.

01:19:54.180 Of course.

01:19:54.860 And like, I think what's at the basis of all of this radical critique is an assault on the idea of merit itself.

01:20:02.300 And I can understand that, you know, because talents are unfairly distributed.

01:20:10.480 And in the end, it will lower the standards of the society.

01:20:15.780 Well, that's the thing.

01:20:16.960 You know, if you look at this, maybe you're cold hearted and you look at this purely from.

01:20:21.020 And imagine you even manifested a critique from the left.

01:20:27.080 Do you really think that corporations aren't concerned enough about their own survival to do everything they possibly can to select the most competent people?

01:20:36.580 Obviously, they're going to do that.

01:20:38.020 And it's actually of benefit to everyone else.

01:20:41.140 Because what's the alternative?

01:20:43.140 Random selection?

01:20:45.100 If you're put in a position that you're not qualified for, you're going to fail.

01:20:48.780 That is not very positive for you.

01:20:51.580 It's no mercy to put someone somewhere where they're going to fail.

01:20:55.460 Well, absolutely, that's not helpful.

01:20:58.920 We see all these selection processes now being subject to critique universities are abandoning standardized tests.

01:21:05.800 They don't know the literature, the people who are doing this, they're going to replace them with selection mechanisms that are far more pathological.

01:21:12.220 I was talking with one of my colleagues, for example.

01:21:14.200 So among the universities that abandoned the GRE, the Graduate Record Exam for Graduate Student Entrance, what happened was that those students who came from elite universities had a much higher probability of being accepted than they did when the GRE was part of the package.

01:21:32.080 Because the GRE actually equalized across universities.

01:21:36.280 So you throw it out and what happens is those who had the fortune to go to a prestigious university have a much bigger advantage.

01:21:42.740 That's exactly what's going to happen when we throw out valid measures of competence.

01:21:48.020 So I agree with you on that.

01:21:49.420 And we'll have a sort of hyperinflation of grades, like with some currency, we'll get to that maybe, like what happened in Lebanon, hyperinflation.

01:21:59.500 We may get inflation at one point, I guess.

01:22:03.900 But for the grades as well, I understand the reflex of some to say, oh, it's the pandemic to help, but help, thinking that it would help.

01:22:14.380 And my point was, during war in Lebanon, twice, I had to do two years in one.

01:22:19.840 So we'd have seven chapters of math at once, five of physics to catch up, like two years in one.

01:22:26.060 Never, ever, they did what we are doing here, you know, like removing the grades, doing some, it remained thorough.

01:22:33.760 15 years of civil war.

01:22:35.460 And so that was my experience.

01:22:40.360 But I'm, of course, it's a decision, a group decision, although I'm not talking, but I'm saying that my, when I think about that, I agree.

01:22:49.160 So, so now you're in limbo.

01:22:53.420 Like what faces you now?

01:22:55.640 What's, what's in the future for you?

01:22:57.520 Is it a tribunal?

01:22:58.880 Like, how are you going to be tried for your crimes?

01:23:01.320 The arbitration, so I, so the arbitration process, and whatever other processes.

01:23:10.940 So, so it's, I can't answer that because I, right now, I don't know.

01:23:14.840 It's a developing fast, you know, it's, it's, so it's.

01:23:18.540 So you don't even, you don't know the process by which this is going to be remediated.

01:23:22.900 Oh, I know, of course.

01:23:24.300 The arbitration, like the.

01:23:26.160 Right, but so what does that mean, practically speaking?

01:23:29.940 Practically.

01:23:30.420 What, what, what do you have to do and what's going to happen to you?

01:23:34.780 I, we will see, but I know that whatever step that is being done that is not right, there has been a grievance for it.

01:23:45.140 That's all I can say because that I can speak to, but not the details.

01:23:49.200 So, so.

01:23:49.840 Okay, so is your union, is your union supporting you?

01:23:53.320 Yes, and I'm grateful.

01:23:55.340 Okay, well, thank God for that.

01:23:56.880 So they've decided they'll support you on what grounds?

01:23:59.300 I cannot speak for the details that may, may be harming the arbitration without knowing, but I can tell something that really anyone reading that blog and thinking like, how is that?

01:24:12.480 Like it's, it's, it's, it's, there are so many angles to it, but definitely like the blog, the freedom, the academic freedom, but that I, I can speak to because that's what I think so as well.

01:24:26.700 And, but there are other things that I would not, but there are other things that I would not be talking about right now.

01:24:31.000 And when does this arbitration process begin?

01:24:34.240 And I mean, you're, you're, you're on the hook at least till January of 2022?

01:24:39.700 December the 1st, uh, yes, December the 1st for the suspension part.

01:24:47.320 Um, and, um, also when that didn't go public, uh, but also like, how am I going to, you know, like suspension, but also not being able to be on campus, for example.

01:25:05.300 So, so, so, so can you not be on campus?

01:25:08.040 No, maybe that I would have, it's, it's not secret, but it's, I'm sharing.

01:25:15.620 So are you forbidden to go on the campus?

01:25:18.160 Well, it's part of the things that you're suspended from being paid or not on campus.

01:25:22.500 Yes.

01:25:23.560 Okay.

01:25:24.000 What happens if you go on campus?

01:25:26.380 Do you know?

01:25:27.760 Well, we had, um, municipal elections lately.

01:25:30.880 And I joked to myself saying, what, uh, if had it been on campus, what do I do?

01:25:36.300 It's a legal problem, I guess, or whatever problem it is.

01:25:39.780 But I, I.

01:25:40.220 And so what are the grounds for not allowing you to be on the campus?

01:25:44.300 I guess I'm toxic maybe, or, or maybe that part of.

01:25:48.120 It's because you present a danger.

01:25:50.380 Danger, unsafety.

01:25:52.620 Right, right.

01:25:53.520 So that, that makes sense.

01:25:54.840 So now you're an unsafe person.

01:25:56.520 And so you can't go on the campus because of the threat that you might pose to students.

01:26:01.340 Yes.

01:26:04.360 How are your colleagues responding to this?

01:26:07.840 Well, again, I can't speak for them, but I can speak in general.

01:26:12.040 I can say in these situations, when they happen, some people will come forward.

01:26:16.720 Some people will be afraid.

01:26:18.140 I understand that people are afraid.

01:26:20.440 I, I totally understand because we're different, right?

01:26:23.580 We react differently.

01:26:24.500 We may come forward to support me or, or do something, but some people will not because

01:26:29.820 they have family, a family, children.

01:26:33.160 Yeah.

01:26:33.340 Well, not coming forward is not going to protect them.

01:26:36.780 If this can happen to you, like the lesson here, there's only two lessons here.

01:26:40.760 Either you're a bad person and you got exactly what you deserved, or this can happen to anyone.

01:26:47.060 And so look the hell out.

01:26:48.520 I totally agree.

01:26:50.340 And I, I tend to stand up for people, no, I stand up for people in real life, but also

01:26:55.600 on the blog.

01:26:57.400 I write when something isn't right.

01:26:59.400 Like, for example, um, to think quickly of a situation, maybe Dr.

01:27:03.980 Matthew Bokote in, in Montreal, whenever he has stories like being canceled or trying

01:27:10.080 to attempt to, or, or maybe Dr.

01:27:12.040 Gad Saad, again from Montreal, I know you're friends.

01:27:15.000 Uh, I said, bravo to the, to the Jewish public library.

01:27:19.080 Library.

01:27:19.520 Yeah.

01:27:19.820 Because they, they, uh, and, and, um, even the prime minister of Quebec, I may have had

01:27:25.760 a post saying bravo.

01:27:27.340 Um, the university of Laval as well, you know, saying that academic, uh, freedom, um, must

01:27:34.580 be protected, like, but the, uh, academic, I mean, it's protected, um, so that's, I mean,

01:27:41.360 I was a recommitment to it, if you see what I mean.

01:27:44.640 Well, look at the academic, the bulk of the abstract intellectual work in our society goes

01:27:52.780 on at university.

01:27:53.580 So that's where the cutting edge is.

01:27:55.280 It's not the only place there's, it happens in many places, but it's one of the main places.

01:27:59.660 It's certainly the main place where training for that is still instituted.

01:28:05.080 Apprenticeship for that is still instituted.

01:28:07.240 And so if that comes under assault, if that's in danger, then what's to protect the same

01:28:13.260 thing in the rest of the culture?

01:28:14.980 If, if it, if it goes where it's paramount, if it, if it's threatened where it's paramount,

01:28:19.440 it's going to be threatened everywhere.

01:28:21.460 And that's why people should pay attention to what's happening to you.

01:28:24.260 And, and, and should put as much pressure as they possibly can on the administration

01:28:30.720 at Mount Ellison to reverse their insane decision and to have some courage instead of kowtowing

01:28:36.760 to a tiny minority of students who don't even represent the communities they purport to represent.

01:28:42.660 You know, my guess is, is if we took those and it'd be easy enough to find out, but no one

01:28:47.760 will do it.

01:28:48.780 If we surveyed these student organizations, presented them with your story and surveyed

01:28:54.500 them, I suspect that the vast majority of students within those organizations, organizations

01:28:59.400 themselves would be appalled at what's being done to you.

01:29:03.620 So there's a handful of students who say they represent a tiny proportion of students, but

01:29:09.260 who actually don't, who complain bitterly in the background and use deception to bring

01:29:14.720 administrative force to bear on someone like you.

01:29:17.340 And somehow that's okay.

01:29:18.660 And despite the fact that thousands of people express their support for you, the university

01:29:24.000 won't change its mind.

01:29:25.200 And for what to, to indicate their commitment to what, to this insane, um, ideology that purports

01:29:33.040 to be anti-racist.

01:29:34.380 You can see how fair it is in your case.

01:29:36.820 You know, we're, we're, we're matching an actual injustice against a bunch of hypothetical

01:29:42.680 injustices.

01:29:43.620 Yes.

01:29:44.180 Yes.

01:29:44.520 And my take on it was at the beginning that, okay, they chose whatever path I've never,

01:29:49.540 I, I, uh, but now, um, I am like, um, the target because of all, of all this, if you

01:29:58.960 see what I mean, like.

01:29:59.980 You're a target, not just a target.

01:30:01.560 You've also been hit.

01:30:02.960 You're not just a target.

01:30:04.500 Exactly.

01:30:05.060 You've been successfully hit.

01:30:06.800 Exactly.

01:30:07.240 Like my career, like when you are a researcher, uh, when you are a faculty member, but doing

01:30:13.600 your research or services across the province and the country, your reputation, even if

01:30:18.880 you want to go find another job somewhere else, your reputation is all what you have,

01:30:23.800 right?

01:30:24.260 Your, your reputation is done.

01:30:26.260 Look, I, the other thing is I'm on, you're on hiring committees.

01:30:29.260 I've sat on hiring committees.

01:30:30.260 So here's another rule about hiring committees.

01:30:32.160 And so given that there's a preponderance of candidates and that there's a preponderance

01:30:40.440 of qualified candidates, any and all candidates who show any sign whatsoever of scandal are

01:30:45.640 immediately removed from the pack.

01:30:49.800 Cause the, the, the hiring committees won't tolerate the risk.

01:30:53.900 So as soon as you've been brushed with scandal, and then, then here's another question for you,

01:30:58.180 cause I've had to think this through and I'm still not exactly sure what to make of it.

01:31:01.320 I could go back to the university of Toronto.

01:31:04.140 What about my graduate students?

01:31:06.160 What bloody chance do they have on the job market?

01:31:08.880 It doesn't matter about their publication rates.

01:31:11.520 So let's say they come out with a stellar publication, but they're associated with me.

01:31:15.580 It's like, are they going to find a job?

01:31:17.440 Well, the answer to that is perhaps not.

01:31:20.340 And so what am I supposed to do with that as a moral person?

01:31:23.000 Am I supposed to not go back to the university because merely being associated with me is enough

01:31:28.080 to increase the probability that my qualified students won't be acceptable to any hiring

01:31:32.800 committee.

01:31:33.840 These shots are unbelievably effective, even if you can manage them.

01:31:37.320 And it's not obvious that you can manage them.

01:31:40.060 I mean, you're still going through this.

01:31:41.360 You have months to go without gainful employment, you know, and the, the doubts creep in when you're

01:31:49.580 accused of this sort of thing, because anybody with any sense pays attention to accusations,

01:31:55.220 right?

01:31:56.060 If you're a psychopathic to the core, you don't care what other people think, but if

01:31:59.840 you're a reasonable person, you're modifying your behavior all the time as a consequence

01:32:04.420 of the effect you have on others.

01:32:07.080 So, so, well, I'm reprehensible enough.

01:32:09.220 So an institution that I admired deeply.

01:32:12.180 And me too.

01:32:14.260 Yeah.

01:32:14.820 And the whole Canada, right?

01:32:16.120 But I want to say something, you know, some people believe what they read and they do not,

01:32:21.060 you know, question or apply or say, let's listen to the other side.

01:32:23.840 Let's see what happened.

01:32:24.860 Some even, you know, friends would call my spouse and say, what?

01:32:28.580 Well, even if it has been said, it's too much, but my spouse will say she has not said it.

01:32:35.580 Like, so, so, so they thought, cause it's written in such a way that is, um, so.

01:32:41.660 Yeah.

01:32:41.800 Well, you know what they say where there's smoke, there's fire.

01:32:45.220 Exactly.

01:32:45.660 But let's assume like some people are saying, even if like the, the, the, how can I say?

01:32:52.120 The punishment or the discipline or is, is beyond, uh, is, is, uh, surrealist.

01:33:01.260 Disproportionate.

01:33:02.320 Disproportionate.

01:33:02.760 Yes.

01:33:03.400 And severe, which it certainly is.

01:33:05.760 Yes.

01:33:10.640 So what do you do now?

01:33:12.340 What are you doing?

01:33:13.280 I mean, how have you been structuring your life in the aftermath of this?

01:33:19.460 I've never imagined that we can be working as hard as that without having, uh, you know,

01:33:25.340 being suspended without pay.

01:33:26.860 Like I'm, I'm, I'm very busy working, uh, doing what I need to do with time to emails,

01:33:32.940 thanking people, strategizing, doing things, um, working basically on that.

01:33:39.180 So like all that time, I'm not putting it on my research.

01:33:42.620 Uh, I'm not, uh, putting it on future courses if I'm still here or on, so it's, I'm, I'm living

01:33:51.380 day by day.

01:33:52.720 Uh, but, uh, I am fine in the sense that I know, uh, I know who I am.

01:34:00.940 I know my values.

01:34:02.960 I know the value of, of freedom, a free, free expression for me, uh, academic freedom slash

01:34:10.480 that are related, right.

01:34:11.320 Um, that I know for sure.

01:34:14.400 One of my friends once said, the truth doesn't matter anymore because it has, there has been

01:34:19.020 a narrative, but luckily there has been amazing journalists who have had more.

01:34:24.280 I'm not going to be naming, but everyone knows had more, more than I can ever imagine.

01:34:29.780 Like I felt that like, you know, those articles fell on me from heaven.

01:34:33.300 Uh, so the narratives has shifted.

01:34:36.260 Uh, and if you see what I mean.

01:34:39.360 Yeah.

01:34:40.100 Yeah.

01:34:40.360 Well, I was fortunate enough to have some of Canada's preeminent journalists, you know,

01:34:45.260 take a second, look what I was doing and actually think it through and, you know, come out in

01:34:49.220 support of me.

01:34:49.920 Thank God for that.

01:34:51.240 Yes.

01:34:51.620 And, and, and that was definitely a lifesaver, um, it repeatedly over time.

01:34:58.080 So, so thank, you know, absolutely.

01:35:01.320 It's thank God.

01:35:02.080 There are people who still want to know what the actual story is.

01:35:05.400 So, well, is there anything else that you, let's, let's talk about your colleagues again.

01:35:11.800 You said that have any of your colleagues in the department at Mount Ellison made a public

01:35:16.640 statement of support for you?

01:35:20.600 Um, public statement.

01:35:22.960 I'm not.

01:35:23.360 Yeah.

01:35:23.620 Public statement.

01:35:28.300 Um.

01:35:28.780 Sorry to put you on the spot, but you know, this is an important question.

01:35:33.420 It's a very important question.

01:35:35.160 If the people right next to you who know you and who have worked with you are so afraid

01:35:40.800 that they can't say this is not right collectively, which is what they should have done.

01:35:46.240 They should have come together as a group, as a faculty and said, you go after her, you

01:35:50.880 go after all of us.

01:35:52.220 But that isn't what's happening.

01:35:55.160 And so this divide and conquer strategy works just fine because you can single someone out

01:35:59.440 of the crowd and go after them and no, and everyone else shies away.

01:36:04.500 Very good question.

01:36:05.380 But I think part of it, they must be shocked right now.

01:36:08.720 Part of it is how, you know, actually, I'm not talking about the university of my story.

01:36:12.180 Universities, these investigations are, are private, confidential.

01:36:16.940 So like no one knows.

01:36:18.000 And, and me without things being confidential, I tend to be discreet.

01:36:22.620 I do not talk or bad talk about people.

01:36:24.660 My colleagues know, know very well.

01:36:26.560 It's not my style.

01:36:27.740 I focus on my task.

01:36:28.920 I do what I need to do.

01:36:30.100 My family, they know I don't, I don't like blah, blah, blah.

01:36:33.380 Like, you know, uh, I tend to be more aggressive directly when I have to, if I have to, like now,

01:36:40.080 you know, that fight.

01:36:42.360 Uh, but, um, not when, when I don't, I'm like, how can I say it?

01:36:47.500 So I don't do that passive, aggressive and talking and all that.

01:36:51.560 Yes.

01:36:51.840 I got, um, kindness indirectly, but without it being said throughout like the work that

01:36:57.960 we have, we are doing, you know, that work and all this, but they didn't know what I

01:37:01.760 was going through probably, or maybe they knew, or I don't know.

01:37:06.320 There's fear.

01:37:07.120 Definitely not at my institution.

01:37:09.180 There's fear in the province.

01:37:11.220 Yeah.

01:37:11.680 Well, you know, fear is, fear is justified as far as I'm concerned, but you better bloody

01:37:16.780 well be sure you're afraid of the right thing.

01:37:19.160 And, you know, it's one thing to be afraid of making a public statement, say in support

01:37:24.180 of you and to be afraid of the consequences of that.

01:37:27.640 Although if every single one of your faculty colleagues did that, the university would buckle

01:37:32.920 instantly and apologize to you.

01:37:35.740 So, but if they, okay, so they're afraid of doing that and they're afraid of spear, each

01:37:41.260 of them individually is afraid of spearheading that.

01:37:43.700 But why aren't they more afraid of ending up where you ended up?

01:37:47.020 Well, the, the logic is, well, she, she was incautious.

01:37:50.900 She wrote her blog.

01:37:52.100 She said things that a sensible person shouldn't say.

01:37:54.660 So that means that now they're doomed to only say those things that a sensible person would

01:37:59.700 say under such conditions, which is to say absolutely nothing about anything controversial

01:38:05.840 ever again in their entire careers.

01:38:08.540 Well, why not be afraid of that instead?

01:38:11.480 Exactly.

01:38:12.040 And it comes down to other situations where let's say someone is a victim of sexual harassment

01:38:19.380 or something where we can blame the victim or saying, oh, the person was wearing something.

01:38:24.880 Maybe, you know what I mean?

01:38:26.020 So maybe it's a way of saying she did it to herself because she's, you know what I mean?

01:38:31.080 Well, that's the only other alternative.

01:38:33.520 Yes.

01:38:34.360 But definitely if it happened to me, it may, and it could, and it would happen to anyone,

01:38:39.580 not just at my institution.

01:38:42.180 It's definitely, and no one should be going through that.

01:38:47.340 Not you, not me, not anyone, no one.

01:38:56.680 Anything else?

01:38:58.280 I want to say thank you for that platform.

01:39:01.160 I, you know, I think so highly of you.

01:39:04.160 And as I said, some people would say, why didn't she talk to Dr. Peterson?

01:39:07.800 Maybe she should talk to someone else.

01:39:09.120 I want to thank everyone who went public that I'm reading to say something.

01:39:14.160 I want to thank people that I didn't have the chance to already send my thanks.

01:39:17.980 They know I made a post about that.

01:39:19.900 But thank you to everyone.

01:39:21.220 Merci.

01:39:21.500 Yeah.

01:39:21.680 Well, you know, the other thing about who you choose to talk to in situations like this

01:39:25.700 is that you choose to talk to people who will talk to you.

01:39:29.860 Exactly.

01:39:30.480 I got it.

01:39:30.820 And then you find out pretty damn quickly who will talk to you and who won't.

01:39:34.580 And so people might ask why you would come and talk to me.

01:39:37.360 But part of the answer to that is because I'll actually talk to you.

01:39:41.180 And so, you know, you find out who supports you and who doesn't and why they do and why they don't.

01:39:47.260 And so and then that any criticism of that just becomes a further excuse to maintain silence

01:39:53.620 when silence shouldn't be maintained.

01:39:55.420 Like I'm appalled at your colleagues, to speak frankly.

01:39:58.400 I'm absolutely appalled at their silence on this issue.

01:40:01.120 If they had an ounce of courage, they would unite together and they would tell the administration

01:40:06.080 to back the hell off right now or else. 0.58

01:40:09.840 And the fact that they won't do that is it's it's appalling.

01:40:13.340 And if they think that that's not going to come at a cost, then they've got their head buried in the sand

01:40:18.240 in a way that requires a fair bit of intellectual gymnastics to manage,

01:40:22.760 a fair bit of avoidance of the topic, avoidance of thinking it through.

01:40:27.300 It's like, look what happened to Rima.

01:40:28.680 Oh, well, she probably asked for it. 0.93

01:40:30.240 You know, she wasn't as cautious.

01:40:31.720 Yeah, that's the conclusion you're going to draw.

01:40:33.780 You think that's not going to have an impact on your own behavior?

01:40:38.420 If they if they banded together behind you, this would be over right away.

01:40:43.440 The university would buckle and the people who sanctioned you would be fired,

01:40:49.320 which is what exactly what should happen.

01:40:51.460 There's no excuse for what happened to you whatsoever.

01:40:54.120 You know, and I've counseled a lot of people in my clinical practice who've been accused of all sorts of things.

01:40:58.980 And one of the things I've learned is that it's very, very difficult for people to mount their own defense,

01:41:05.360 you know, especially decent people, because they get accused of something and then they they don't attribute to themselves the innocence that our legal system demands.

01:41:14.800 Right.

01:41:15.120 You know, innocent until proven guilty.

01:41:16.800 It's like, well, you try to apply that to yourself.

01:41:19.140 If you're accused, you'll find it's not so easy.

01:41:21.500 You know, and I would say in your case, well, not only are you innocent, but this is an anti-truth campaign.

01:41:28.240 It's not like, well, you sort of did some things wrong and maybe you should be more careful in the future.

01:41:34.100 It's like, no, you had a blog.

01:41:36.460 You said some things on it that you had to say.

01:41:39.000 They weren't reprehensible things.

01:41:40.940 You have every right to do that.

01:41:42.520 And maybe you even have an obligation to your creative spirit and to your desire to communicate and to formulate and clarify your thoughts.

01:41:50.700 Right.

01:41:51.240 In a in a in a in a public dome, in a public forum where you can get some feedback and share your ideas with others, which is what you have to do if you're going to think.

01:42:00.740 And so you're not just innocent, you know, you're targeted in a manner that that speaks of the true motivation behind the targeting, which is to take people like you down.

01:42:11.640 And that's what's happened.

01:42:12.940 Exactly. 0.99

01:42:14.460 And your colleagues, they should hang their head in shame. 0.97

01:42:18.500 And so should the university. 0.97

01:42:19.720 It's absolutely appalling that one of Canada's finest undergraduate institutions should be participating in this bloody, awful witch hunt charade.

01:42:29.000 Can I add something?

01:42:30.740 The final thing is I totally agree with you, but that Bambi or me, Rima, defended people I don't agree with, like on some topics, like, for example, someone, a great professor of law, and I will name because you can read it if you want.

01:42:45.020 Dr. Amir Ataran, he talks about Quebec in some words that I'm not very fond of, but I defended his right. 1.00

01:42:54.260 And I thanked Mr. Trudeau for having said, you know, Quebec bashing, whatever.

01:42:59.880 So that story.

01:43:01.080 But I may like other posts he does, and I read him.

01:43:06.160 If he's listening, if he will ever listen, I do read his Twitter.

01:43:09.300 I read, I read all, I learned that from war.

01:43:13.120 I used to read all the news on all sides and not saying I read only this, because you become, you know, like it's a brainwash type of thing, if you want, during war, when you're only reading your side and you're not reading the other media, the other side.

01:43:28.000 So that was one way of coping that I did is learning to read and build, you know, my own thinking.

01:43:34.380 And this is what I do now.

01:43:35.960 I read those whom I don't agree with.

01:43:38.100 Before reading those I agree with, I defended maybe politicians who are not very liked because they have been silenced on social media.

01:43:48.580 I may have said no one should be silenced.

01:43:51.680 No one.

01:43:52.120 No one, not any politician, no scholar, no citizen, no one.

01:43:57.480 Well, if you can only defend those who you agree with, who are you going to defend?

01:44:01.740 Exactly.

01:44:02.120 You don't even agree with yourself all the time.

01:44:04.340 Exactly.

01:44:04.540 You change your day from mind to mind.

01:44:06.380 Exactly.

01:44:06.660 Or you change your mind from day to day.

01:44:08.600 That's what I do.

01:44:09.580 You know, so.

01:44:10.400 Exactly.

01:44:10.840 So it's, it's of course unacceptable, but I do understand that people are afraid sometimes because they may have, you know, kids or it's a pandemic.

01:44:23.480 Yeah, they should be afraid.

01:44:24.720 I agree with you, Rima.

01:44:26.040 I agree with you.

01:44:26.940 But the issue is what should you be afraid of?

01:44:29.860 Should you be afraid of defending your colleague or should you be afraid of the arbitrary power handed to, you know, half-wit student mobs hell-bent on bullying and destruction who are presenting themselves in the guise of moral avatars?

01:44:43.020 Like, those are the people you should be afraid of.

01:44:45.540 And cowardly administrators who kowtow instantly to any complaint, no matter how groundless, because they don't want to appear as sensitive as they might.

01:44:53.960 Those are the things to be afraid of.

01:44:55.720 So fear actually isn't a defense, because the fear justifies a kind of willful blindness that is not going to help us in this situation.

01:45:04.460 No.

01:45:10.360 Well, I hope that you find the continuing courage to be outraged on behalf of your innocence.

01:45:18.960 Thank you.

01:45:19.300 And to go after and to not merely defend yourself, but to do it in an aggressive manner.

01:45:24.300 Exactly.

01:45:24.600 And to bring the people who've done this to you to something approximating justice.

01:45:28.780 And that might include the students, too.

01:45:31.700 Because it isn't obvious to me that they deserve to avoid sanction as a consequence of their actions.

01:45:37.860 Everyone must.

01:45:38.440 Why in the world should they be allowed to destroy someone's life?

01:45:41.440 No, everyone must.

01:45:42.660 We all must be held accountable for our actions.

01:45:46.280 So those actions have consequences.

01:45:49.260 What they did to me is, as we said, surrealistic.

01:45:53.720 Let's leave it there.

01:45:54.800 But I totally agree with you.

01:45:56.240 And all options should be considered in a battle like that, I would say.

01:46:02.620 So if people want to write letters of support for you, who should they go to?

01:46:11.260 The chairman of your department?

01:46:13.040 Who?

01:46:13.420 Who should they be sent to?

01:46:14.780 I think maybe everyone, maybe the higher administration, maybe the union copying the union, copying everyone.

01:46:21.840 I got copies of letters, a lot of letters from day one in February.

01:46:27.860 And right now, even someone, a childhood friend from Lebanon on her own, she wrote.

01:46:35.560 How many letters do you think have been written to the university in support of you?

01:46:39.460 Oh, I'm still into the thinking and replying a lot.

01:46:44.300 I'm still seeing my emails, but who knows?

01:46:47.040 So is it hundreds?

01:46:50.380 I can't put an accurate number, but a lot.

01:46:56.140 Maybe, maybe, maybe, maybe.

01:46:58.080 Because some things are being done also without it being letters.

01:47:02.860 Right, right.

01:47:03.380 But like trying to push with other organizations.

01:47:06.520 So there are things that I'm hearing about, people saying that they are doing them, or from other universities I'm hearing.

01:47:13.260 There is a big movement, and that fundraising campaign.

01:47:18.620 And so I'm overwhelmed by the support.

01:47:21.880 And again, I want to thank everyone.

01:47:24.380 I want to, you discover, probably it happened to you, you discover people.

01:47:27.500 So, you know, you know, you're friends, of course, but you discover people that you would never imagine that would have that courage to do what they did.

01:47:37.160 It's, it's an amazing experience, let's say, to say the least.

01:47:41.460 Well, we'll put the relevant links for wannabe letter writers in the description of the video so that they can do that.

01:47:47.860 But yes, and you do discover, that's the thing, you know, you discover the pervasiveness of fear, first of all.

01:47:55.760 And the fact that so many people, and perhaps the majority of people, allow misplaced fear to silence them in the short term.

01:48:05.380 And pay, and pay, and pay, and pay for that in the medium to long term.

01:48:09.680 And that's a terrible thing.

01:48:12.280 But you do discover that there are people who have so much courage, you can hardly believe it.

01:48:18.180 Indeed.

01:48:20.920 Well, I wish you the best of luck dealing with this.

01:48:23.820 Thank you so much for having me.

01:48:25.700 And please keep doing what you do.

01:48:27.720 And I'm a fan.

01:48:29.100 I follow you.

01:48:31.120 Thank you, Dr.

01:48:31.680 Well, that's probably not in your best interest, but I do appreciate it.

01:48:35.300 Oh, yeah, I don't care.

01:48:36.120 Remember, I'm not politically correct.

01:48:38.020 So, I do read you, and I do listen, and I appreciate it.

01:48:42.680 Thank you.

01:48:44.240 Thanks very much.

01:48:45.260 It was painful, but very good to talk to you.

01:48:49.100 Take good care.

01:48:50.180 Thank you.

01:49:08.020 Thank you.

01:49:08.840 Thank you.

01:49:08.900 Thank you.

01:49:28.540 Thank you.

The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast - June 07, 2021

174. You're Next ｜ Dr Rima Azar

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