In this episode, Dr. Rima Azar and Dr. Jordan B. Peterson discuss the recent controversy surrounding her blog, as well as what led to her suspension at Mount Allison University in Sackville, New Brunswick. Dr. Azar is an Associate Professor of Health Psychology, Co-Founder and Co-Director of NaviCare, and a former holder of a CIHR New Investigator Salary Award in Developmental Psychoneuroimmunology. She s co-scientific lead in the Three-Part Leadership of the New Brunswick Strategy for Patient-Oriented Research Network, a provincial network with 120 stakeholders including 120 stakeholders under the leadership of two researchers, two clinicians, and two policymakers. She is a former Canadian Institutes of Health Research Advisory Board Member for the Institute of Human Development, Child and Youth Health at the Canadian Institutes for Health Research (CIHR). She has been ranked the top undergraduate liberal arts university in Canada 21 times in the past 29 years by Maclean s Magazine. In February of 2021, she ran into some trouble at her university because she commented on her blog while commenting on news articles in the media. Well, it s too bad it has been bad to be under these circumstances. So, indeed, how have been you been under it too long? So, how long have you indeed been under adversity? Well, It s been a long time, hasn t it? Dr. Bambi Savkar is a blogger, blogger, and writer. She s a friend of mine, and I ve been reading a lot of good books, so I figured I d give her a chance to shine a little light on what s been going on in the world. So here s what she s been up to! Episode 28 features my dad, featuring a bit more topical... My dad, joined by Dr. Rachel Azar . I ll tell you what s going on, and what s up with her blog , and why she s not having it any better than that, right here, folks! -- My dad. -- Thank you for listening to this episode of the JBP Podcast? -- Thank you, Rachel, Rachel -- Rachel -- I ll send you a review of this podcast, and you ll get a discount on a new mattress and a free pillow and a $200 gift from Helix Sleep -- and I ll give you the chance to try it out for 100 nights for $200.
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00:00:51.060Welcome to the JBP Podcast. Season 4, Episode 28 features my dad, joined by Dr. Rima Azar.
00:01:01.960Dr. Rima Azar is an Associate Professor of Health Psychology at Mount Allison University,
00:01:07.740Co-Founder and Co-Director of NaviCare, and a former holder of a CIHR New Investigator Salary Award in Developmental Psychoneuroimmunology.
00:01:18.980Dr. Rima Azar and dad discuss the importance of free speech and what happened with the recent controversy surrounding her blog,
00:01:27.320as well as what led to her suspension at Mount Allison University in Sackville, New Brunswick.
00:01:33.260You can find Dr. Azar's blog at BambiSavkar, B-A-M-B-I-S-A-F-K-A-R dot C-A.
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00:09:00.860I'm someone who strongly believe and respect in human relationships.
00:09:05.680And I think if we have that respect toward others, self-first, but toward others, it's the best antidote to racism, discrimination, mistreatment of others.
00:09:18.580So I'm against discriminating against anyone, including myself, of course, but against anyone.
00:09:25.840So that for me, I want to get it out clearly, please.
00:12:45.780You know, when we hear stories about people being silenced in one way or another.
00:12:53.320Or when we see that people are being, I don't know if that's the term in English, but disreputable, I mean, being made into diabolizing them, you know, saying words, you know, this or that, racist or that.
00:13:12.620And so that, and that is actually, it's ironically a contradiction with where I come from, where we know we have a powerful group or more powerful than other groups, but Lebanon has issues.
00:13:26.400But people still express their opinions there, despite stories, you know, extreme stories of, you know, killing here and there, you know.
00:13:45.880And I have never imagined in my whole life that my problems would be from Canada and not like coming from where I come from, if you see what I mean.
00:13:57.840So what did you write about that caused trouble?
00:14:05.380It's very hard to know precisely, but I, but, you know, some of the things, it's public.
00:14:11.360I'm not saying anything that went in emails or in social media from the university or went in the media, actually, if you read the stories of being accused of being racist, of being, you know, all these terms like encouraging sexual violence.
00:14:32.740So what those were the accusations against you, they were accusations of racism, they were accusations that you were promoting sexual violence.
00:14:45.980It seems odd to be promoting sexual violence, but I can explain why perhaps people, maybe younger people think in black and white and don't see the nuances.
00:14:57.940And I can understand that when we are young, sometimes it's like that.
00:15:01.160But I try, I think I try to bring some perspective by comparing, you know, places worse than Canada.
00:15:09.560You know, Canada has issues, of course, like all the countries, but Canada is not as bad as we think.
00:15:14.720Had it been that bad, I would have not immigrated here.
00:15:17.900My family would have not, I would have not chosen to stay.
00:15:20.860So, so maybe I may have said in wars, war times or under certain radical groups, you may have a rape culture or rape.
00:15:32.940And by no means, I meant to be saying, minimizing the experience of people going through, through horrible things like rape and then that's sexual.
00:15:45.540But, um, I think it's all about the blog, in all honesty, all, all what we hear in the media is not the main thing is the blog is it's disturbing.
00:15:57.640And exactly, exactly what happened to you.
00:16:01.040So you were, you were living what I would presume was a pretty comfortable and happy life, as you've described being a teacher and a researcher, you spun off this blog on the side.
00:16:12.480And then what happened one day, you were notified by the university, tell us exactly the story.
00:16:20.100I can tell you, but I want to say yes, I'm extremely happy, even in the pandemic, even despite the Beirut explosion and everything, like I'm finding my ways of, you know, living, coping where New Brunswick is amazing for Canada.
00:16:33.140But, but, but we're also lucky to be in the semi-rural areas where even the pandemic did not hit us as hard as, as strong or bigger places in Montreal.
00:16:43.760Uh, so in that sense, um, it, I was all okay until that February 22nd, where I can tell you that story because it's my story.
00:18:13.220I don't know if it was happening on, on elsewhere as a Facebook, I guess, but I saw the Twitter myself, uh, and then an email got out of the university publicly.
00:18:22.860So not on Twitter, on Facebook, um, or the public channels of the university saying, um, you know, it's public.
00:18:30.500So I'm not saying what is not public, uh, trigger warning that blog, we dissociate ourselves from it.
00:18:36.900And, and, and, and, you know, uh, or, and encouraging complaints.
00:18:48.640Um, a lot, uh, and like, it was, it was a big thing on social media, like, um, and, and there has been also at one point, you know, uh, threat of violence on social media and things like that.
00:19:00.300So it was, it was, it was then, I don't want to forget that part, when the, there were three student organizations asked for my removal from, um, my position at my university and also affiliations, uh, elsewhere, like University of New Brunswick, University of Moncton as well.
00:19:23.420Okay. So I want to zero in on this. So there's, there's some students primarily on social media, on Twitter primarily, and they're complaining about your blog and their students who are part of student organizations and do you, and then the student organizations themselves, three of them are contacting your, the people that you're working for or with suggesting that you're not the sort of person they should be associating with and asking for your removal.
00:19:53.620And you said there were lots of, of students doing this. And I'd like to get something, an estimate of something like a number. So does a lot mean 500 or does it mean five?
00:20:05.420Hmm. So in between maybe, I don't know precisely the answer.
00:20:09.980Well, the reason I'm asking is because one of the things I'm curious about is just how many people have to complain before complaints are taken with some degree of seriousness.
00:20:19.780Now I've dealt with ethics boards, for example, at my own university, and they have a policy that every complaint should be investigated thoroughly.
00:20:28.060And I'm not very fond of that policy, particularly because there are a lot of people who cause a fair bit of trouble for absolutely no reason.
00:20:37.140And it seems to me that complaints need to pass something approximating a reasonable threshold before they're dealt with, let's say, seriously.
00:20:44.920And so, you know, it's striking when you're talking about this, that you don't know how many people actually came after you because they came after you on, on social media.
00:20:53.900And it's certainly not in the hundreds. It's unlikely to be, and correct me if I'm wrong, it's unlikely to be in the dozens.
00:21:01.700Is it 10? Is it 15? And were they students who were actually in your classes or were they just people who read your blog?
00:21:10.080And what were they objecting to in your blog exactly? What did you say that was in principle?
00:21:15.200Or do you even know what it is that they're upset about?
00:21:18.720What I've read is that you made some claim that Canada wasn't systemically racist, that that wasn't the right way of looking at the country.
00:21:27.060And is there so? And to me, that means now, is that the case now that at a university, if I stand up and say that I don't believe that the lens of systemic racism is the proper way to analyze Canada,
00:21:38.760especially compared to other countries, that now I'm so reprehensible that I deserve to be suspended?
00:21:43.640If a couple of people object, is that the situation that we're looking at? Or am I being too hard on the university?
00:21:51.580Well, I think it's hard to answer that question.
00:21:55.520The numbers that I know of now, I know them because of what happened and how many people, but before I didn't know anything.
00:22:02.240I personally found it amazing that my university, my employer that I love and respect, you know, did not call me to tell me what was happening, that I learned it in that way.
00:23:18.720You're still not sure what it is that.
00:23:20.420OK, so you're not sure exactly who you offended or how many of them there are, and you're not exactly sure why you offended them.
00:23:28.500And you're so unsure that what you say is that as far as you're concerned, you can't safely write down what you think, despite the fact that you have your opinions, given where you came from, given the fact that you've immigrated here, that you can take a look at Canada from the perspective of an insider and an outsider.
00:24:09.080OK, and you said your university didn't even call you when all this blew up, which is typical in my experience of the way institutions are reacting to this sort of thing.
00:24:17.660So an unnamed number of students made comments that you have used that are in some sense reprehensible, even though you don't know what they are.
00:24:27.420And the response of your university, despite the fact that you have tenure, that you're an accomplished scientist, that you're a popular undergraduate researcher, that you have tenure.
00:24:35.680The response of your university was to not call you, but suspend you for the fall.
00:25:03.320But when we get into false allegations, it's a different story.
00:25:10.260There's also a difference between having the right not to like what you say on your blog and aggregating behind your back and conspiring to contact all your employers and to insist that you be removed because you're reprehensible and hypothetically a danger to the, let's say, the safety of students.
00:25:28.740And to have you removed from your position and have your reputation dragged through the mud and have you exposed in the media.
00:25:36.140I mean, that's not merely not liking what you said.
00:25:40.300And it's amazing to me that this handful of students, an unspecified number, has the power to move the administration to produce such a dramatic response.
00:25:52.180And you keep wavering in some sense as to the nature of your crimes.
00:25:57.560You said you think it might, you think it's likely the blog, but I guess there are allegations that go outside the blog as well.
00:26:03.700Have you ever had trouble with your students in classes that have resulted in complaints?
00:26:45.920Well, it doesn't seem to me that it's something that needs to be justified.
00:26:49.040I mean, first of all, you're a citizen of a free country.
00:26:52.460You have a right to express yourself any way that you see fit.
00:26:55.600Second of all, you're a tenured professor and your thoughts are actually protected to a fair degree.
00:27:00.840And it's protected broadly so that you can think broadly.
00:27:05.000And the fact that this has happened despite your tenure...
00:27:07.780Well, I guess part of the question that people who are watching might be asking is why the hell should they care about this?
00:27:12.880And the reason I believe that people should care about this, first of all, is that what happens in the universities ends up happening everywhere else very, very rapidly.
00:27:27.060And this unbelievable cowardice that our institutions show in the face of unwarranted allegations, as long as they're the right flavor, is something that should be tremendously worrisome to everyone.
00:27:38.720Now, in your situation is also particularly peculiar, I might say, because you don't seem to be the right sort of target for this sort of targeting.
00:27:47.800You know, because you're using the terminology that I don't appreciate in the least.
00:27:53.780I mean, you're female, you're an immigrant, you're at least in principle part of the communities that the people who push this sort of nonsense are hypothetically trying to protect.
00:28:05.920So why is it because you are in one of these victimized categories and you dared to say something that wasn't in accordance with the necessary moral ideology that you've been targeted?
00:30:16.980So so so in that sense, I like the term invisible minority, visible minority.
00:30:24.820You know, the terms that used to be used in Quebec, my time when I immigrated, I see myself more in them and then like like put us divided into your this group, that group and, you know, sectorism or not like Canada.
00:30:44.600Right. So you're supposed to be first of all, you're female.
00:30:47.500So hypothetically, you're oppressed because you're female, even though the evidence for suppression of females in academia is very, very it's actually females dominate over males in terms of numerical proportion in most disciplines.
00:31:03.220It's not the case in the STEM fields, but everywhere else, it's the case, not only especially in terms of graduates produced.
00:31:09.400It might not be the case at the highest levels of distinction in the academic hierarchy, although that's changing pretty rapidly.
00:31:16.640So you should actually fit into at least two oppressed categories, female and an immigrant.
00:31:21.180Right. And and so and so the rule here is that if you're in both of those categories victimized by the intersection between those two categories, that there's a particular political view you better have or else.
00:31:33.260Yes. And or else in your case is there else you get suspended because a few people complain.
00:31:40.420That's what the hell's going on with the administration. I don't understand what they're doing.
00:31:45.080I really don't understand. I can't understand why they didn't have the courtesy.
00:31:48.900Actually, I can understand why they didn't have the courtesy to call you, because the sad truth is, is that as soon as a few people complain,
00:31:57.320everyone who isn't directly involved runs scared and looks for someone to sacrifice.
00:32:01.220Yes, I can. How can I say it? When I reply to the women part, my own sister is a journalist and defends women's rights and in Beirut.
00:32:15.020And, you know, there, you know, that women have a long journey, right, for equality.
00:32:20.780And yet my sister does not use terms like, you know, that, you know, toward men and that I don't know how to say it,
00:32:28.780but in a constructive way, she does what she does.
00:32:31.780And Bambi may have had a post actually on that. So so that's one thing.
00:32:36.960The second thing is you're right. There is there is scapegoating, maybe, but there is fear.
00:32:42.400People are afraid. And I don't just well, the way to the way to deal with fear isn't to offer someone up as a sacrificial victim
00:32:50.320and then to run hiding into the closet. That's not the way to deal with fear that all that does is feed the mob,
00:32:55.920as far as I'm concerned, because now they've managed to go after your job successfully.
00:33:00.880I don't understand, like, what sort of message is that sending to the to the students who went after you to begin with?
00:33:08.640What the message is, is, well, if you organize yourself into a little mob and bully like mad,
00:33:14.660then you can make major administrations kowtow to your political will,
00:33:18.940despite the fact that it massively disrupts someone innocent's life.
00:33:23.600Well, that's a hell of a message for an educational institution.
00:33:26.820Absolutely. And it's not just my life, my family, my small family, my larger family in Lebanon.
00:33:33.360Like, it's like people are traumatized by that story. And there is a silent majority of students or not.
00:33:44.700Yes. Who are who are like you thinking, what is that?
00:33:49.540And like me. But me, I am calm. I take things calmly. And I think, try to how to solve things and strategically and what to do, what not to do.
00:34:00.840So, but I see around me how much people are affected. And I am, of course, affected. But I mean, I'm trying to fight.
00:34:08.440Who was it exactly that sent you the note signifying your suspension?
00:34:13.960Well, it's not a secret. It's two administrators, but two particular persons. But for me, it doesn't, at that stage, it's all public.
00:34:29.780So, all what I'm saying is not that I'm saying something that I'm not supposed to be saying. It's all public and those names.
00:34:35.220Well, it isn't, it isn't also, it also isn't clear what you're supposed to be saying and what you aren't supposed to be saying.
00:34:40.260I mean, you have every right to let people know what's going on. In fact, I think in some sense you have an obligation to let people know what's going on.
00:34:47.080Right. And because look at this isn't right. This isn't, this isn't appropriate, especially given that you're protected by tenure.
00:34:54.860It's not appropriate anyways, but it's particularly not appropriate because you're hypothetically protected by tenure.
00:35:01.580And so, on what grounds were you suspended?
00:35:08.240I still don't understand what you did. Where's the evidence that you did something so reprehensible that a suspension was the appropriate response?
00:35:15.760Why didn't they say, at minimum, well, you can continue your teaching and we'll take a look at this.
00:35:20.940But given your stellar record and your loyal service for the last 13 years, continue what you're doing and, you know, we'll take a look at this.
00:35:29.960But we're on your side given your past behavior.
00:35:34.480Is there anything that's lurking back there that makes you nervous about your performance?
00:35:40.320No, but let me tell you something. What happened at Mount Allison University and is happening elsewhere, but particularly here, is a symptom of what is happening in our country or maybe beyond, actually.
00:35:52.060So, I take it like that. It's a symptom that we do have a serious problem, as you said, like tenured professors not being able to express ideas, debate ideas, challenge students with ideas.
00:36:06.420Well, not only ideas, these, you're, what you claim is not only what was commonplace, is commonplace among the vast majority of people in Canada, but was completely uncontroversial five years ago.
00:36:20.080It's not like you're pushing forward some radical ideas.
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00:39:30.620Of course, sometimes you may meet someone who may say a word that may sound like being racist.
00:39:38.160So I say so much like it's racist have the right to exist in a society, so-called racist like myself, have the right to exist in a community or in a society.
00:39:49.020So what I'm trying to say is that it is normal in a society to have people who are truly racist or radicals, but the problem is when radicals start imposing their views instead of accepting that not everyone thinks the same.
00:40:08.380Like I am, I consider myself as a classical liberal, historically, I thought center left, but I don't like to put words.
00:40:16.380So center left, some people would say, why are you talking to Dr. Peterson?
00:40:19.640Some people, most of the people I know would be jealous of me to be talking to you in all honesty, but some people would say, why are you talking, you know, being perceived as being too, you know, right, left things?
00:40:31.320I don't care about sides. I'm going to tell you something about me and identity politics. When I moved to Montreal, it's full of people of the same background as me.
00:40:41.960So if you take a cab driver, chances are the cab driver would be either of Haitian origins or Lebanese origins.
00:40:48.560So sometimes when I open my mouth in French, they can guess my accent or we realize we're both same backgrounds, start chatting.
00:40:55.740They ask me, where are you from? And I can see their religious symbol in the car.
00:41:00.260It's actually, I share that same religion, but I would answer from Beirut. I am from Beirut, because it's general.
00:41:07.520They will say, where exactly in Beirut? I know where they want to come to.
00:41:11.780And it's not because they are mean, because it's curious, it's built in them.
00:41:15.340They want to know which religion. And me, I say, oh, the green light, near the green line, sorry, green line, you know what I mean, like between East and West Beirut.
00:41:25.320So for me, my religion is personal. My whatever part of identity, it's no one's business.
00:41:34.380So it's like, identities are complex, right? We have multiple, I don't know what I mean.
00:41:41.640But so that is how I've always approached things. And now that I'm seeing that if we say, if we denounce these things in our society, we are being called racist, we are being called radicals.
00:41:55.940Like, it doesn't make any sense to my sense.
00:42:00.840So your experience when you went to Montreal was a positive one, and you enjoyed living in the city.
00:42:05.900And then you went off, you did well in CGEP, in the upper echelons of high school, and then you went off to the University of Montreal.
00:42:12.320And you were successful there. Did you encounter anything that you regarded as systemic racism while you were in Montreal?
00:42:19.080No, not in Montreal, not in Toronto, not in New Brunswick, personally. Of course, we know the history and history of Canada and pockets of residual things that, you know, unfair and unjust.
00:42:33.180But, you know, I think systemic racism or whatever we want to call it or diversity or things, we have to be careful not to be saying slogans and empty slogans.
00:42:43.080For me, diversity, I live it. I live it because I allow myself to think, it will change my mind. My spouse is not of the same background as me. Absolutely not.
00:42:55.580And so that's diversity, right? Diversity is I tolerate. I think you can be of that trend of, we call it, walkism, why not?
00:43:08.960As long as you don't impose on me, or if you see what I mean, or you can be, you can be even, I'm thinking of religion now, not just Muslim, but Islamist, if you're not doing something with it, if you see what I mean, to society.
00:43:26.720So my point is, we have the right to think whatever we wish in a democratic society, in a free society, especially in universities, as you said, the lighthouse of knowledge, of exchange of ideas.
00:43:42.120And if it's there, it's getting dark. How would it be elsewhere?
00:43:47.900Have you been, have you been able to face any of your accusers? Do you know who they are? Were they, were they former students who were in your classes? Are they people who are hell bent on pushing an ideological agenda, who virtually know nothing about you? I mean, do you have any idea?
00:44:04.380I cannot speak to that part, but maybe I can say in general that some may, some may not, many not, many not. But I will, I will just say that it is just so unfair, absurd. It's, there is no word that I can describe. It's not because it's happening to me.
00:44:27.460And no one should go through that. No one, for whatever reasons, think, you know.
00:44:33.140Okay, so, so let's talk about that for a minute. So back to that day that you knew that something was afoot, exactly what happened. So a former student alerted you that something was up, and you checked out Twitter, and you saw accusations about your character and about what you've written flying around on Twitter.
00:44:50.340And the people who were producing these accusations were parts of student organizations. What kind of student organizations were they part of?
00:44:58.940I think I can speak to that part because it's in the media. So Divest was one of them, Divest Mount A. The other one was Black Student Association. And the other one, ironically, was the Rose Campaign. It's about the massacre at Polytechnique.
00:45:18.460And I, it means the word to me, Polytechnique is University of Montreal, right? So every year I commemorate, you know, I participate. So that one group was that group, saying that I encourage gender violence, sexual violence, and through my writing on the blog.
00:45:37.100And that was because you, because you were pointing out that that such activity is not part and parcel of the central culture in Canada, but an aberration.
00:45:49.580I was perhaps talking about, I don't know, honor killing in some places, you know, so I read a media about a certain young woman who was killed, and I put a candle, you know, memory, you know, for her memory, and I wrote something, you know, comment about that. So that's because I didn't, it's, it's like,
00:46:11.200And how is it that you're glorifying sexual violence by doing that? Exactly.
00:46:15.460I have no idea. I wish I could answer, but I, um,
00:46:21.440Okay, so that, that particular, um, uh, accusation, not only, I've been thinking lately that there are about, about deception, the use of deception. And, you know, there are lies that are just about true, but they're just sort of, they're not quite true. And so you sneak them by because they're close enough to the truth, maybe to pass.
00:46:42.940But then there are lies that are the antithesis of the truth, antithesis of the truth, right? They're, they're anti-truths. And it seems to me that the accusations that you're glorifying sexual violence fall in the antithesis category of untruth. Not only is it a lie, it's the opposite of the truth.
00:47:02.100Yes. But when it's about the blog, I can understand, I can understand because they don't like it. They're emotional about it. They are right. I, that I can understand. But when we come to talk about a behavior, a situation, an incident that has never happened, that is a different story.
00:47:20.740And how, how, how do you separate out those two?
00:47:24.060I think it all came in the context of the complaints and the, the, the, the situation of the blog and, and, and I, but I don't know for sure because I remember, I didn't know how it started at the beginning, but, but logically it came when through that, uh, you know, the process of, uh, uh, I call it a speed mobbing because it was like speed dating.
00:47:48.380Uh, it was so fast. So, uh, uh, um, it felt like, uh, how can I say it with all respect, like having barking dogs coming at you all at once.
00:48:01.740Yeah. So how about we call this assault?
00:48:33.160And so you, you're someone who, who is obviously deeply opposed to such things as sexual exploitation, clearly.
00:48:41.900And, and assault and, and the use of arbitrary violence.
00:48:47.200And nonetheless, you're targeted by precisely that kind of behavior.
00:48:52.120And then it's encouraged in every possible way, as far as I can tell by the administration who immediately fold in the most cowardly of possible ways.
00:49:01.700And so I just, this is just, it's outrageous.
00:49:04.920And I can't understand why there isn't more noise about it.
00:49:12.700I can't speak for the motivation, but I can speak of not standing up for me.
00:49:17.880What I see, I saw the whole Canada stood up for me.
00:49:20.460Like the people writing, uh, amazing, uh, uh, comments on the GoFundMe campaign, people donating, people like, like, like, I, I'm overwhelmed by that.
00:49:48.640So, like, what the hell's up with that exactly?
00:49:52.120I mean, how come there's no proportionality of response?
00:49:55.860If the, if the overwhelming body of the population is supportive of what you, of who you are, let's say, and what you've done, which is nothing that, that deserves the kind of treatment that you've been through.
00:50:08.240Why isn't the university as sensitive to the public opinion supporting you as they are sensitive to the hypothetical public opinion damning you?
00:50:16.820Do you have, like, do you, how do you understand that?
00:50:19.500Well, you said this was surreal, and I want to delve more into that.
00:50:22.760So, let, we'll deal with the public opinion issue in a bit.
00:52:00.680So, despite the fact that you haven't been, let's say, convicted of any wrongdoing, you're required to take diversity, inclusivity, and equity training.
00:52:09.440And that's despite your background, let's say.
00:52:11.940So, what exactly, first of all, are you going to do that?
00:52:14.560And second of all, what exactly are you supposed to learn by doing that?
00:52:18.360What behavior do you think it is that, or attitudes, are you supposed to mend and alter?
00:52:25.140I'm going to tell you a story from my past.
00:52:28.500When I was 14, and you can guess if I'm going to take it.
00:54:20.540And then, and it's also a job that requires, and you also have a clinical background.
00:54:25.120So you're actually technically social, socially skilled and highly trained.
00:54:31.640And then the question is, just exactly who the hell would be teaching the diversity, inclusivity, and equity course?
00:54:37.680So that would be someone, in all likelihood, with a master's in social work,
00:54:40.720who is going to lecture you on your ethical duty to others and assume that you are in a position that requires exactly that kind of education,
00:54:50.000despite the fact of your advanced training.
00:54:52.240And that speaks to the motivation behind this sort of thing as well, especially when it's forced.
00:54:57.060And because by forcing that on you and having you accept that, that's essentially an admission of your guilt and the necessity that you've come to realize for yourself that you need to be retrained by someone who holds those particular political opinions and that level of training.
00:55:13.100There's no evidence whatsoever, you likely know this as a psychological researcher, that any of this diversity, inclusivity, and equity training,
00:55:21.900any of this implicit bias retraining has any positive effects whatsoever.
00:55:26.420There's no evidence that the implicit association test that purports to measure implicit bias is a valid test.
00:55:33.340It certainly isn't accurate enough to be used for the purposes that it is being used for.
00:57:01.700And there's an administrative bureaucracy that's associated with it.
00:57:05.280And this is an expression of their ability to fulfill their mandate, let's say, given that they're searching for things to do.
00:57:14.940And you're the sort of racist that they've decided to target, which shows you exactly how much useful activity there is lying around.
00:57:23.680If you're the sort of person they're going after, the racists at Mount Ellison must be in relatively short supply.
00:57:30.660Yeah, I would say, yes, I agree, because if it's like, as I told you, classical liberal and the center, you know, if that is not tolerated, how can we tolerate someone to the real right, which rather have the right to be right, right?
00:57:46.480But real right or so like it's it's it's too much like we I don't know what to say, because you can look at it from different angles.
00:57:55.600There's that political thing, that freedom, academic freedom, definitely, but also free expression in the world, because societies look up to universities as a foot for that.
00:58:10.020So if professors cannot talk, cannot communicate and debate, I don't I didn't see any students from my university writing on the blog.
00:58:22.140I saw someone who wrote and I replied, but not from the university, but no one like why don't they challenge that Bambi and write and say doesn't, you know, when the story happened, it didn't happen.
00:58:38.100It could have been a platform for debate for, you know, exchanging.
00:58:43.060If you buy the if you buy the line that people aggregate themselves into groups based on power and pursue their own selfish in their own selfish interest within that group, there's no space for free debate between individuals.
00:58:58.040That's not part and parcel of the entire doctrine.
00:59:00.440It's not like it's not like there's no free speech within the confines of doctrines like that, that the notion doesn't exist because there's no sovereign individuals.
00:59:14.720There's no exchange of rational information.
00:59:19.020So the whole issue of free speech is moot.
00:59:20.980There's just power and the expression of power between different groups.
00:59:25.260And there is fear because when you silence or try to silence someone or isolate someone, people around are afraid.
00:59:33.340Yeah, well, I can't I can't help but think that those who claim that social institutions are predicated on the arbitrary expression of power are precisely those who predicate their social behavior on the on the principle of power.
00:59:45.200And they misread everyone else and they misread everyone else and I don't think there's any evidence at all that well socialized people who are functioning productively and cooperatively in society are basing their social interactions on the arbitrary expression of power.
00:59:58.840That isn't my experience with people unless they're unless there's something wrong with them and then they default to power in all their relationships.
01:00:07.860But there's no place for rational debate in the in the in the on the ideological front that insists on such things as systemic racism.
01:00:17.840Okay, so Monday, back to Monday again, how long after these complaints arise, are you sanctioned? Are you are it? How long is it until you're told that you can't teach in the fall?
01:00:31.180I think I'm not talking about the details, but there has been a process, of course, the investigation and the report and and and after that, the decision was that from I'm suspended without pay from now until December the first and and it's without pay as well without pay.
01:00:51.340And did the report suspending you without pay detail your hypothetical crimes that the report the decision made based on the independent report and who who was who made up this independent who generated this independent report maybe these things I can talk about because it would be part of arbitration and all that but I it's not that I don't want to chat with you, but I know I understand.
01:01:17.600But it's funny that the privacy of the privacy of the people that are doing this to you is protected and your privacy isn't I actually don't think that's funny at all.
01:01:25.640And I suspect they're doing just fine with their continual salary payments and their lack of suspension over the next few months.
01:01:32.960So it seems like a pretty one sided power play to me.
01:01:55.520I think because of the media, I can talk about it.
01:01:58.580The false story is that I when you may be and there's a net topic that the student is saying that I did not I did not want to use the pronouns.
01:02:10.040Of the student and and that I said the student is brainwashed.
01:02:16.280And from what the discussion chat so far you had with me or what you've read or what my values, what I told you about respect, would I ever tell someone these things in those terms?
01:05:16.520You know, I mean, your research is devoted towards helping people.
01:05:20.460You're an educator who's obviously, what would you say, motivated by the desire to teach young people and to bring them forward, not to exercise your arbitrary power over them.
01:06:54.780But I said, it's true that it is unimaginable.
01:06:58.880Like, in Lebanon, we look up to Canada, to the Western world, if you want, or by extension, like, you know, people value democracy.
01:07:10.640People get killed sometimes when it's extreme because of their thoughts.
01:07:14.300But when people can say whatever they wish on Facebook, social media, I criticize, I don't know how to say it, but I criticize one powerful group, but not only everyone, but that powerful group so many times.
01:07:31.600And yet, I did not get that treatment from that powerful group there.
01:07:36.280And so what's, what, what do you, what do you, what are your plans now?
01:07:45.760Your life has been thrown up in the air.
01:07:48.080I mean, and you must have been going through your teaching career with a fine tooth comb trying to figure out, you know, if you did.
01:07:55.960I mean, what's really horrible if, if something like this happens to you, if you're a decent person, is that you torture yourself to death about what your guilt might be.
01:08:06.280Yeah, but, you know, as I said, like, my, my, um, people around me are losing sleep.
01:08:15.820I, I, I, I'm not yet, I don't know what's going to happen, but not yet.
01:08:19.880Because you know what, I think when we know ourselves, we know the truth, we, it's, it's, like, no matter what you're going to be reading about you, this is not you.
01:08:32.100I know you, I'm from already, and I hear about you, you talk to me.
01:08:35.840It's not what people would say, you know, nasty things.
01:08:39.300Sometimes you went through difficult times.
01:08:41.680Some people would say he, he deserves that.
01:08:44.480Like, I, I, it's, I get out of my mind when I see someone saying that to anyone, but particularly to you for all what you did and went through and all that.
01:09:24.000Where is it imposed on us from, uh, you know, uh, I, I think I have some hypothesis with some of my expertise, but I just know that it's, why can't we say it?
01:10:49.780I've sat on many, many hiring committees.
01:10:51.580The first is that they're extremely merit-based.
01:10:55.820So the first thing that the typical committee does is they rank order candidates.
01:11:00.880And there's like 100 candidates for every position that's awarded.
01:11:04.160So there's plenty of people to choose from.
01:11:07.280They look at publications, quality of publications, because as a professor, one of the things you're supposed to do is generate publications.
01:11:17.280So if you're a graduate student and you generated many high-quality publications, that's a good predictor that you're going to do the same thing in the future.
01:11:27.340That'd be secondary at most places, especially if they're research-oriented.
01:11:30.800Be more primary at a teaching-oriented university.
01:11:33.120So teaching ratings from students, so the stakeholders have a say in that that's a powerful say.
01:11:41.740And then also evidence of interpersonal ability.
01:11:46.380So you look at letters of reference and so on, documenting the candidate's ability to be a good colleague and to get along with people and not to be a troublesome thorn in the side, let's say, for arbitrary reasons.
01:11:59.440And so those are perfectly reasonable hiring criteria.
01:12:02.880They have nothing to do with the maintenance of the power of any particular group.
01:12:07.140And then there's even more than that, because once the candidate pool has been winnowed out,
01:12:12.560the probability that a university hiring committee is going to give preferential treatment to someone who's qualified within that pool,
01:12:21.160but who shows, who's, let's say, a member of a group that's been historically disadvantaged, to use all this bloody terminology,
01:12:30.940the probability that that person is going to get more than a fair shake is very, very high.
01:12:36.100And that's been the case for at least 30 years.
01:12:40.060And it isn't clear to me that that's always been for the best, but nonetheless, that's the situation.
01:12:44.560So to think about those institutions, Canadian universities, American universities, too, for that matter,
01:12:50.880as somehow being predicated on arbitrary power is, it's not, again, it's not a lie.
01:15:09.080So I think that it's, how can I say it?
01:15:15.320It's not because someone is of my same background, precise place where I came from, religion, whatever, that that person would represent me better than someone else who is more competent, as you said, who makes more sense.
01:15:31.020Well, that's an insane part of this doctrine to begin with.
01:15:33.540The idea that these arbitrary groupings, your gender, your sex, your race, means that you have something more profound in common, for example, than with people who share more differentiated elements of your character, your ambition, your values, more importantly.
01:16:48.480So it is particularly insulting if I'm qualified, definitely.
01:16:53.200And so to come to tell me that, let's say, if we're going to talk about one part of the identity, you mentioned gender, but it could be, let's say, skin color, right?
01:17:01.100So what does someone from Palestine who happens to have a black skin have in common with the president of the United States, a former president, who happens to have a, do they have in common, like, or someone from Haiti driving a cab in Montreal?
01:17:19.640Well, look, as social scientists, we could agree that one of the factors that might give people some similarity of experience would be race or ethnicity.
01:17:39.740So what predicts success if you look at it psychometrically?
01:17:42.900So you break down all the attributes of people and you decide which measurable attribute would be associated with socioeconomic position, let's say.
01:17:51.460Well, the best two predictors are general cognitive ability, which is basically ability to learn and to deal with complex abstractions.
01:17:58.800And that predicts performance in high complexity jobs and high complexity jobs involve a lot of change and necessity for learning.
01:18:06.820So ability to learn and ability to solve complex problems predicts success in jobs that require the ability to learn and the ability to deal with complex situations.
01:20:16.960You know, if you look at this, maybe you're cold hearted and you look at this purely from.
01:20:21.020And imagine you even manifested a critique from the left.
01:20:27.080Do you really think that corporations aren't concerned enough about their own survival to do everything they possibly can to select the most competent people?
01:20:58.920We see all these selection processes now being subject to critique universities are abandoning standardized tests.
01:21:05.800They don't know the literature, the people who are doing this, they're going to replace them with selection mechanisms that are far more pathological.
01:21:12.220I was talking with one of my colleagues, for example.
01:21:14.200So among the universities that abandoned the GRE, the Graduate Record Exam for Graduate Student Entrance, what happened was that those students who came from elite universities had a much higher probability of being accepted than they did when the GRE was part of the package.
01:21:32.080Because the GRE actually equalized across universities.
01:21:36.280So you throw it out and what happens is those who had the fortune to go to a prestigious university have a much bigger advantage.
01:21:42.740That's exactly what's going to happen when we throw out valid measures of competence.
01:21:49.420And we'll have a sort of hyperinflation of grades, like with some currency, we'll get to that maybe, like what happened in Lebanon, hyperinflation.
01:21:59.500We may get inflation at one point, I guess.
01:22:03.900But for the grades as well, I understand the reflex of some to say, oh, it's the pandemic to help, but help, thinking that it would help.
01:22:14.380And my point was, during war in Lebanon, twice, I had to do two years in one.
01:22:19.840So we'd have seven chapters of math at once, five of physics to catch up, like two years in one.
01:22:26.060Never, ever, they did what we are doing here, you know, like removing the grades, doing some, it remained thorough.
01:23:56.880So they've decided they'll support you on what grounds?
01:23:59.300I cannot speak for the details that may, may be harming the arbitration without knowing, but I can tell something that really anyone reading that blog and thinking like, how is that?
01:24:12.480Like it's, it's, it's, it's, there are so many angles to it, but definitely like the blog, the freedom, the academic freedom, but that I, I can speak to because that's what I think so as well.
01:24:26.700And, but there are other things that I would not, but there are other things that I would not be talking about right now.
01:24:31.000And when does this arbitration process begin?
01:24:34.240And I mean, you're, you're, you're on the hook at least till January of 2022?
01:24:39.700December the 1st, uh, yes, December the 1st for the suspension part.
01:24:47.320Um, and, um, also when that didn't go public, uh, but also like, how am I going to, you know, like suspension, but also not being able to be on campus, for example.
01:25:05.300So, so, so, so can you not be on campus?
01:25:08.040No, maybe that I would have, it's, it's not secret, but it's, I'm sharing.
01:25:15.620So are you forbidden to go on the campus?
01:25:18.160Well, it's part of the things that you're suspended from being paid or not on campus.
01:40:31.720Yeah, that's the conclusion you're going to draw.
01:40:33.780You think that's not going to have an impact on your own behavior?
01:40:38.420If they if they banded together behind you, this would be over right away.
01:40:43.440The university would buckle and the people who sanctioned you would be fired,
01:40:49.320which is what exactly what should happen.
01:40:51.460There's no excuse for what happened to you whatsoever.
01:40:54.120You know, and I've counseled a lot of people in my clinical practice who've been accused of all sorts of things.
01:40:58.980And one of the things I've learned is that it's very, very difficult for people to mount their own defense,
01:41:05.360you know, especially decent people, because they get accused of something and then they they don't attribute to themselves the innocence that our legal system demands.
01:41:42.520And maybe you even have an obligation to your creative spirit and to your desire to communicate and to formulate and clarify your thoughts.
01:41:51.240In a in a in a in a public dome, in a public forum where you can get some feedback and share your ideas with others, which is what you have to do if you're going to think.
01:42:00.740And so you're not just innocent, you know, you're targeted in a manner that that speaks of the true motivation behind the targeting, which is to take people like you down.
01:42:19.720It's absolutely appalling that one of Canada's finest undergraduate institutions should be participating in this bloody, awful witch hunt charade.
01:42:30.740The final thing is I totally agree with you, but that Bambi or me, Rima, defended people I don't agree with, like on some topics, like, for example, someone, a great professor of law, and I will name because you can read it if you want.
01:42:45.020Dr. Amir Ataran, he talks about Quebec in some words that I'm not very fond of, but I defended his right.
01:42:54.260And I thanked Mr. Trudeau for having said, you know, Quebec bashing, whatever.
01:43:01.080But I may like other posts he does, and I read him.
01:43:06.160If he's listening, if he will ever listen, I do read his Twitter.
01:43:09.300I read, I read all, I learned that from war.
01:43:13.120I used to read all the news on all sides and not saying I read only this, because you become, you know, like it's a brainwash type of thing, if you want, during war, when you're only reading your side and you're not reading the other media, the other side.
01:43:28.000So that was one way of coping that I did is learning to read and build, you know, my own thinking.
01:44:10.840So it's, it's of course unacceptable, but I do understand that people are afraid sometimes because they may have, you know, kids or it's a pandemic.
01:44:26.940But the issue is what should you be afraid of?
01:44:29.860Should you be afraid of defending your colleague or should you be afraid of the arbitrary power handed to, you know, half-wit student mobs hell-bent on bullying and destruction who are presenting themselves in the guise of moral avatars?
01:44:43.020Like, those are the people you should be afraid of.
01:44:45.540And cowardly administrators who kowtow instantly to any complaint, no matter how groundless, because they don't want to appear as sensitive as they might.
01:47:24.380I want to, you discover, probably it happened to you, you discover people.
01:47:27.500So, you know, you know, you're friends, of course, but you discover people that you would never imagine that would have that courage to do what they did.
01:47:37.160It's, it's an amazing experience, let's say, to say the least.
01:47:41.460Well, we'll put the relevant links for wannabe letter writers in the description of the video so that they can do that.
01:47:47.860But yes, and you do discover, that's the thing, you know, you discover the pervasiveness of fear, first of all.
01:47:55.760And the fact that so many people, and perhaps the majority of people, allow misplaced fear to silence them in the short term.
01:48:05.380And pay, and pay, and pay, and pay for that in the medium to long term.