The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast

00:00:00.940 Hey everyone, real quick before you skip, I want to talk to you about something serious and important.

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00:00:51.040 Welcome to the Jordan B. Peterson podcast. This is season four, episode 30.

00:00:59.240 In this episode, my dad is joined by one of my favorite humans, Michael Malice.

00:01:04.300 Michael Malice is a best-selling author, podcaster, columnist, and media personality.

00:01:09.640 He's a champion and proponent of free speech, anarchy, and many other non-mainstream beliefs.

00:01:15.840 My dad and Michael talked about his impressive career, Canadian politics, Western culture, the woke culture wars, changes in universities, the crumbling study of the humanities, Newfoundland, Toronto, and more.

00:01:29.260 Michael Malice has just released a new best-selling book called The Anarchist Handbook I would highly recommend checking out.

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00:03:12.760 Hello, everyone.

00:03:32.420 Everyone, I'm pleased to have as a guest today Mr. Michael Mellis, an author, columnist, and media personality.

00:03:41.360 He was the subject of the graphic novel Ego and Hubris by the late Harvey Picard of American Splendor fame.

00:03:50.400 He is the author of Dear Reader, the Unauthorized Autobiography of Kim Jong-il, 2014, as well as The New Right, 2019, a book that I've been reading deeply this week.

00:04:04.920 That was reminiscent to me of the new journalism anthropology of Tom Wolfe.

00:04:10.760 He's the co-author of seven additional books, including Made in America, the New York Times best-selling autobiography of UFC Hall of Famer Matt Hughes,

00:04:22.760 Concierge Confidential with Michael Fazio, 2011, which was one of NPR's top five celebrity books of the year,

00:04:30.240 and most recently, 2016, Black Man, White House, comedian D.L. Hughley's satirical look at the Obama years, also an NYT bestseller.

00:04:43.940 He served as a cultural and political commentator on podcasts with Joe Rogan, Dave Rubin, Tim Poole, my daughter Michaela Peterson twice,

00:04:52.280 and has his own YouTube channel and podcast, You're Welcome.

00:04:56.480 My producer put a note at the bottom of this autobiography.

00:05:03.380 Michael is a comedian with a harsh and fast sense of humor.

00:05:06.580 He's a big fan of yours, but be prepared for a little bit of crazy.

00:05:10.220 I got that impression reading your book, but in the best possible way, I would say.

00:05:15.240 So let's talk about The New Right, if you don't mind.

00:05:17.860 I'd like to dive right into that.

00:05:19.220 So I said in the intro that it was reminiscent to me of the new journalism of the 1960s.

00:05:25.320 When I first read The Electric Kool-Aid Acid Test, which I would recommend to everyone as a brilliant journalistic anthropological investigation into what became the psychedelic culture in the early 1960s,

00:05:39.140 it's a brilliant book.

00:05:40.040 And I got the sense that in The New Right, you were doing much of the same thing for whatever it was that was happening from the time of maybe 2013 to 2016, something like that.

00:05:53.340 Something that actually seems like history already, interestingly enough.

00:05:56.800 And you talk about, from an insider's perspective in some sense, because you were an insider and an outsider at the same time in these groups,

00:06:04.580 but you talk a lot about 4chan and memes and all these subcultures that exist online that are major forces and social domains in their own right,

00:06:17.860 but that are, if not ignored completely by the mainstream media, so to speak, consistently misunderstood.

00:06:29.100 And so, but then by the same, so I'd like to ask you about that.

00:06:33.760 We could start with 4chan maybe.

00:06:36.520 And maybe you could walk us through first what it is and then what it was and then what it is now, if it's anything.

00:06:42.960 Because I did get the sense as well that this happened already.

00:06:47.220 Something else is happening now and I don't know what it is, but whatever it was you were writing about, that's five years ago,

00:06:52.860 which is a long time in internet terms.

00:06:55.960 Sure.

00:06:56.600 I think right now, first of all, discussing 4chan publicly in a context like this,

00:07:01.480 in some kind of studious or serious context, violates the ethos of 4chan.

00:07:05.580 One of the big rules about 4chan is, you know, normies get out, re.

00:07:08.960 So by talking about it automatically, I'm kind of positing myself as someone who's an outsider.

00:07:15.040 I'm not, you know, on 4chan all the time.

00:07:17.500 But 4chan is kind of emblematic of a broader section of the internet, which was driven,

00:07:22.740 wasn't literally only 4chan, but was driven by irreverency, was driven by this idea of that which is presented to us with earnestness

00:07:31.580 should not be taken at face value, that this earnestness is often used as a cudgel and as a mechanism of affecting social control.

00:07:39.940 Certainly, you've been the subject of many memes I'm sure you're familiar with.

00:07:43.340 Yes, yes.

00:07:43.620 But, and the other, the point that they figured out, there's an expression that they say meme magic is real.

00:07:50.080 The premise being, you know, before the new right, the idea was you'd have these organizations putting forth some kind of claim or idea,

00:07:59.880 often absurd on its face, and the argument would be like, well, that's not accurate, that's not fair.

00:08:04.900 And the new approach was, why are we taking this agitprop at face value, instead of mocking it, clowning it, and basically rendering the tool impotent?

00:08:18.360 So that was kind of 4chan's poll board.

00:08:22.140 You had the Donald subreddit on Reddit.

00:08:26.040 So there is this, but you say that it's misunderstood by the mainstream press.

00:08:31.120 I always use the term corporate press, because I don't really regard it as mainstream.

00:08:36.680 But I don't know that it's misunderstood so much as misrepresented.

00:08:41.220 Well, I think it's probably both, because it's not easy.

00:08:44.220 First of all, there's an immense divide between people who don't use the internet as a social mechanism,

00:08:52.380 or as their primary source of information, and people who do.

00:08:55.260 There's an unbelievable divide.

00:08:56.740 And maybe if you're older than 50, you're in the world of 1970.

00:09:02.580 And if you're younger than 40, you're in the world of 2010.

00:09:05.660 And those are really different worlds.

00:09:07.520 I mean, you talk about the corporate press.

00:09:10.680 And I've been thinking a lot about the technological impact of YouTube and podcasts.

00:09:17.880 And this is why I'd like to dig into the misunderstood part first,

00:09:21.820 before we go to the misrepresented part.

00:09:23.720 But what I see, what I saw popping up in your book continually was two things happening in 4chan.

00:09:30.880 There's troublemaking that in some sense is there for its own sake.

00:09:36.580 And I'd like to talk to you about that.

00:09:38.500 There's a political, there's political movement.

00:09:42.320 But then there's also this exploration of what is actually a technological revolution.

00:09:46.480 So you think about legacy media.

00:09:50.080 So I've noticed that when I've gone to TV stations and been interviewed by a journalist,

00:09:55.920 I'll have a discussion with a journalist in the green room, and I'm talking to a person then.

00:10:01.680 But as soon as the cameras go on, I'm not talking to a person anymore.

00:10:05.580 I'm talking to someone who's an adept mouthpiece for a massive corporate organization.

00:10:10.820 But that was actually a necessity, because the bandwidth for television was so expensive

00:10:16.340 that it wasn't possible to grant any individual untrammeled access to it.

00:10:21.860 And so it was inevitable that a corporation was never going to allow, except in exceptional cases,

00:10:28.500 any journalist to have what would truly be an individual opinion,

00:10:32.200 and certainly wasn't going to let them explore ideas in real time.

00:10:35.780 Too expensive, too risky.

00:10:39.260 But then now we're in this weird situation, and the 4chan guys were playing with this to some degree,

00:10:44.140 where it isn't obvious that the corporate media platforms have any advantage whatsoever

00:10:50.360 over anyone who's technologically able.

00:10:54.120 I mean, the fact that we can have this discussion, for example, so...

00:10:58.060 They do have one...

00:10:58.920 Go ahead.

00:10:59.480 I would say they have one very big advantage, which you've seen yourself,

00:11:02.580 which is the concept of legitimacy.

00:11:04.520 So your previous book, the New York Times, refused to basically acknowledge it as being printed in America,

00:11:10.600 so you can't say it's a New York Times bestseller, even though the number it's sold is just a huge amount,

00:11:17.120 it's huge and successful, right?

00:11:18.700 So the Dear Reader, the book I did about North Korea, which I'm sure we'll talk about later,

00:11:23.200 I did that with Kickstarter.

00:11:24.800 As a result of that, on Amazon, it looks the same.

00:11:27.380 It's going to have a page listing, like another page listing.

00:11:29.720 But the New York Times, you know, all these other elements, they're in a position...

00:11:35.180 I got an hour on C-SPAN's book TV, so that is changing in that regard.

00:11:39.640 But it gives them an opportunity to pretend that this book doesn't exist.

00:11:43.320 So unless a book is being published by certain outlets that have legitimacy,

00:11:50.160 basically it's just like...

00:11:51.800 I don't know if you watched wrestling growing up.

00:11:53.520 I certainly did.

00:11:54.240 The WWF, when I was a kid, there were rival organizations,

00:11:57.720 and they literally acted as if these rival organizations didn't exist,

00:12:01.880 and if a wrestler came over from the NWA to the WWF,

00:12:05.260 they acted like he was this new discovery that he had no history to him.

00:12:09.000 It was very odd, because all you had to do was change the channel,

00:12:11.820 and they're acting in certain other mechanisms.

00:12:13.840 So that is a big advantage, because if you go to talk to mom,

00:12:17.680 and you say, where'd you hear this?

00:12:19.500 I heard this on CBS.

00:12:21.000 Where'd you hear this?

00:12:21.820 I heard this on 4chan, it's very clear which one mom is going to choose.

00:12:26.960 I agree, but part of what the 4chan guys were doing,

00:12:31.220 by your own account, to some degree,

00:12:33.040 was testing these new technological platforms

00:12:35.800 to see how much power they actually had.

00:12:39.120 So these trolling games that you described,

00:12:42.060 so you described trolling as something that's actually quite specific in its intent,

00:12:46.360 when it isn't just being, say, adolescent foolishness.

00:12:49.040 It's something like, can we create a narrative and string along legacy media types?

00:12:56.600 And some of that's a joke, but some of it's also a test.

00:12:59.280 It's like, does this new technological platform have enough power

00:13:02.420 to bend and twist what has been the standard means

00:13:07.520 of delivering the cultural narrative for decades?

00:13:09.760 And the answer to that frequently was yes.

00:13:12.000 And increasingly, the legacy media outlets are suffering from delegitimization.

00:13:19.820 They lose money, they lose their ability to fact check,

00:13:22.280 and because they don't have this technological advantage anymore,

00:13:25.280 they have the remnants of their brand.

00:13:27.480 It's something like that.

00:13:29.140 Yeah.

00:13:29.740 And there's also something,

00:13:31.000 there's a very big asymmetry between honesty and dishonesty, right?

00:13:34.500 If you and I are good friends, and I tell you one major lie,

00:13:38.300 well, that's one statement out of tens of thousands.

00:13:40.920 That one statement is still going to do much more damage than one honest statement,

00:13:45.520 because I've lost, there's an amount of trust lost.

00:13:48.580 So their brand has been, and they say this explicitly,

00:13:52.320 CNN had ads not that long ago saying,

00:13:54.260 this is an Apple, we only report facts.

00:13:56.840 If I'm coming at you and saying that I am only reporting facts,

00:14:00.780 as soon as I'm caught in one misrepresentation,

00:14:04.460 even if it's innocent, which I don't think it is in most cases,

00:14:08.160 right away, that just kind of collapses the souffle,

00:14:11.900 because I trusted you, I relied on you,

00:14:14.500 and now you're giving misinformation.

00:14:16.420 But most importantly,

00:14:18.120 and this is where I differ from more mainstream conservatives

00:14:20.520 who think things have become corrupted,

00:14:24.200 you've made mistakes, I've made mistakes,

00:14:26.100 everyone makes mistakes all the time.

00:14:27.620 It's going to be inevitable simply from a lack of knowledge.

00:14:30.040 What steps have you taken once these mistakes have been made

00:14:34.560 to make amends and also put yourself in a position

00:14:38.460 that you won't make the same mistake again?

00:14:41.080 And if you see with corporate media,

00:14:43.340 oftentimes they'll do things that are disingenuous,

00:14:46.000 but let's give them the benefit of the doubt,

00:14:47.260 let's just say they were sloppy,

00:14:48.760 but no one gets fired.

00:14:50.860 There's no mea culpa, like, you know what?

00:14:53.060 Like Tylenol is a great counterexample.

00:14:55.060 Back in the early 80s, I believe it was,

00:14:57.200 Tylenol got, someone was poisoning Tylenol bottles.

00:14:59.620 People, I think, were dying,

00:15:00.580 or at the very least were getting very sick.

00:15:02.320 So Tylenol had this huge ad campaign

00:15:04.340 that said, this is the steps we've taken.

00:15:06.480 You know, you got the childproof calf,

00:15:07.680 you got the seal, you got the cotton, whatever it was.

00:15:09.780 This is how you know that we are safe.

00:15:12.080 You can rely on Tylenol.

00:15:14.020 You don't see that with CNN or Fox or ABC.

00:15:18.040 Whenever they do these egregious things,

00:15:20.140 they just pretend that they never happened all along

00:15:22.260 or say that this is some kind of, you know,

00:15:24.340 you can't listen to the conspiracy theories on the internet.

00:15:26.660 So this is why there is this kind of another loss of trust

00:15:30.460 because there seems to be very little effort

00:15:32.580 to maintain and foster that trusting relationship

00:15:35.440 between the channels and the audience

00:15:37.020 and make amends when things have gotten wrong.

00:15:41.120 So let's, let's, I want to go,

00:15:46.320 I want to continue with 4chan for a bit.

00:15:48.220 Can you walk me through exactly,

00:15:50.300 like you said that one of the mistakes

00:15:52.160 that CNN made, for example,

00:15:54.040 and also Hillary Clinton's campaign

00:15:55.620 was treating 4chan like it was actually a person

00:15:57.820 and as if there was someone

00:15:59.460 who could represent it and speak.

00:16:01.420 Can you lay out exactly what it is and how it works?

00:16:06.440 And then maybe we can talk about the meme culture

00:16:08.200 that's associated with it.

00:16:09.920 Sure.

00:16:10.280 So 4chan and there's others,

00:16:11.580 there's 8chan, there's Reddit and other such,

00:16:14.480 they're message boards.

00:16:15.820 So basically 4chan,

00:16:17.320 I don't remember how many boards they have.

00:16:18.760 Some are completely innocuous.

00:16:20.160 So fitness is their fitness and health board.

00:16:21.800 FA is their fashion board.

00:16:23.800 Guys can ask, does this,

00:16:25.340 do these pants look good on me?

00:16:26.700 You know, what, what kind of hat

00:16:27.920 would look good with my hair?

00:16:29.000 You know, innocuous stuff.

00:16:30.100 Pol, P-O-L, is their politics board.

00:16:32.660 So basically it's anonymous

00:16:34.000 and it's not, I believe after,

00:16:36.580 there's 15 pages

00:16:37.480 and after there's no updates on a thread,

00:16:39.780 the threads vanish into the nether,

00:16:42.000 into the netherworld, whatever.

00:16:42.920 You can't see them anymore.

00:16:44.340 Right, so it's got an impermanence.

00:16:46.360 Correct.

00:16:46.840 You can identify yourself with a flag if you want

00:16:49.380 when you, when you log in,

00:16:50.520 but it's, there's no usernames.

00:16:52.140 It's not like Facebook.

00:16:53.740 So basically, you know,

00:16:55.940 the Hillary Clinton campaign in 2015, 2016,

00:16:58.900 we're positing about these sites

00:17:01.400 and like, how is it that this is allowed to happen?

00:17:04.500 But it's not the kind of thing

00:17:06.200 where it's like Facebook

00:17:07.600 and you call Mark Zuckerberg

00:17:09.480 and he bans certain users.

00:17:11.020 The users are ephemeral.

00:17:13.080 You don't know who they are.

00:17:14.760 It's the posts are ephemeral.

00:17:16.420 You know, they just vanish off the board.

00:17:18.160 So this claim that, you know,

00:17:20.720 the comparison I had, I believe in the book,

00:17:23.780 was kind of the more Al-Qaeda.

00:17:25.620 It's very decentralized.

00:17:27.180 You know, you can't really take out one person

00:17:29.380 and then the whole thing falls apart

00:17:31.400 other than you having to take,

00:17:32.920 try to take out the site,

00:17:34.160 which they tried to do earlier this year

00:17:36.260 and in late 2020.

00:17:37.960 But it's an entirely different model.

00:17:40.100 And I think people who are,

00:17:41.740 have that bureaucratic mindset,

00:17:43.420 people who have that elitist in the sense

00:17:45.180 that you have this managerial elite running things,

00:17:48.240 they can't even conceive of an organization

00:17:52.560 or a location or a website

00:17:54.180 which is decentralized

00:17:55.560 and there's no like, you know,

00:17:58.440 big bad vampire to kill

00:17:59.840 once you take out this vampire.

00:18:01.020 Well, I mean, but that is part of what I,

00:18:03.560 well, I thought was in some sense

00:18:05.080 you're documenting something

00:18:07.640 that's so revolutionary

00:18:08.840 that even the people using it

00:18:10.480 don't know how revolutionary it is.

00:18:12.620 You know, and so because

00:18:13.380 we have these massive communication technologies now

00:18:16.920 and they all have slightly different rules.

00:18:19.160 And just by tweaking the rules a tiny bit,

00:18:21.860 you can create a whole new organization

00:18:23.680 like TikTok, let's say,

00:18:25.100 which has videos of a certain length

00:18:26.860 and at least to begin with,

00:18:28.380 almost no other.

00:18:29.280 It's all of a sudden

00:18:30.140 that's a huge social network

00:18:32.500 doing all sorts of things

00:18:33.920 that no one has ever done before.

00:18:35.160 So the rules for 4chan

00:18:37.080 are really crucially important

00:18:38.960 to understanding it.

00:18:39.900 So it's anonymous, decentralized

00:18:41.620 and evanescent.

00:18:43.720 And that's something.

00:18:45.360 Yeah, and they have no,

00:18:46.180 the two rules are no child pornography

00:18:48.040 and if there's pornography

00:18:50.380 it has to be stick to the pornography board.

00:18:52.220 But so it's pretty much the Wild West

00:18:53.820 when it comes to free speech.

00:18:54.860 Right, and the fact that it's not permanent also,

00:18:58.900 so it's anonymized and impermanent,

00:19:01.120 which means you'd think at least in part

00:19:03.120 that it would encourage a lot more risk-taking

00:19:05.760 because one of the things

00:19:07.100 that would mitigate risk

00:19:08.060 is the fact that it could be attributed to you,

00:19:10.300 but also that it would be permanent.

00:19:12.900 Yeah, I mean, that's the comparison

00:19:14.280 of 4chan and let's say Twitter

00:19:15.500 where, you know, someone's old tweets

00:19:17.540 will be there at the very least

00:19:18.640 they're going to be archived somewhere.

00:19:20.220 You're going to have a consistent username.

00:19:22.660 So even if it's not Jordan Peterson,

00:19:24.140 if you're just going to be like Jack Smith 37,

00:19:26.580 they'll be able to track Jack Smith 37's posts over time.

00:19:30.080 You can't really do that on a site

00:19:32.100 like 4chan or 8chan.

00:19:33.880 But there's other sites like this.

00:19:35.600 I mean, what they have figured out is,

00:19:39.520 you know, the corporate press might decide

00:19:42.040 4chan's the devil, 4chan's the devil,

00:19:43.780 4chan's the devil.

00:19:44.920 You take down 4chan,

00:19:46.160 well, they'll just go to Discord

00:19:47.200 or they'll go to all these other sites.

00:19:49.560 So technology is what allows people,

00:19:51.800 it's designed in contemporary terms

00:19:53.520 for people to communicate.

00:19:55.600 So if you're going to kind of take out one location

00:19:58.220 where they're gathering and trying to communicate,

00:20:00.560 it's going to take minutes

00:20:02.320 to find a new location.

00:20:04.460 Now, there's going to be a cost

00:20:05.740 because you have to get the word out

00:20:06.960 through other means about

00:20:08.120 this is where we all are now.

00:20:09.500 But it's very, very hard

00:20:10.960 when people are basically effectively teleporting, right?

00:20:13.880 For me to go from one location to another,

00:20:16.120 physically, I have to get in a plane, a car,

00:20:18.360 a train, whatever.

00:20:19.200 But if you go to one website to another,

00:20:21.160 I have to type in a web address.

00:20:23.080 So if you just ban one address,

00:20:25.000 the amount of effort it takes to shift to another one

00:20:27.380 could not be more minimal.

00:20:29.880 So, okay, so you documented...

00:20:33.860 So no one's in charge of this,

00:20:35.860 but something happens

00:20:36.780 and it's a communication network

00:20:38.420 and it attracts people who...

00:20:41.460 What?

00:20:42.000 It attracts people who are communicating

00:20:44.060 in a like-minded way across time.

00:20:47.420 Why did it become a place

00:20:48.960 that was dominated,

00:20:50.560 at least by your observations,

00:20:52.240 by the thought that was associated

00:20:53.520 with the new right?

00:20:54.740 Why did it converge on that?

00:20:56.940 Because 4chan historically

00:20:58.320 has been a site for great irreverence.

00:21:00.380 So they had had campaigns to troll.

00:21:04.140 And by trolling,

00:21:04.840 let me say specifically what I mean.

00:21:07.080 Trolling is...

00:21:07.880 It's not just, you know,

00:21:09.240 you have a Twitter account

00:21:10.680 and I say,

00:21:11.180 add Jordan Peterson,

00:21:12.320 you're a jerk, F off.

00:21:13.360 That's not trolling.

00:21:14.300 That's just being obnoxious.

00:21:15.920 Trolling,

00:21:16.520 I regard the first troll

00:21:18.420 as Andy Kaufman,

00:21:19.300 the comedian,

00:21:20.640 where by your performance,

00:21:22.880 you're turning a third party

00:21:24.260 by exploiting their weaknesses

00:21:25.560 into an unwitting performer

00:21:27.040 on their own.

00:21:28.000 For example,

00:21:28.600 there was a great wrestler

00:21:29.580 to bring it back to wrestling

00:21:30.640 called the Honky Tonk Man

00:21:31.660 from the 80s.

00:21:32.580 And his shtick was

00:21:33.960 he was an Elvis impersonator, right?

00:21:36.120 And when they interviewed him,

00:21:37.680 he would say,

00:21:39.100 oh no, Elvis stole my act.

00:21:41.520 Now, Elvis had been dead

00:21:42.480 for 15 years at that time.

00:21:43.820 It makes no sense whatsoever,

00:21:45.520 but this would get the audience

00:21:47.100 really enraged

00:21:47.940 and they'd flip out.

00:21:49.300 So when you are calmly

00:21:50.420 causing someone else

00:21:51.720 to have an extreme reaction,

00:21:53.520 and in this case,

00:21:54.520 and good trolling,

00:21:55.720 he's exploiting

00:21:56.500 their innocence and naivete.

00:21:58.520 I mean,

00:21:58.720 they're taking what he's saying

00:21:59.580 at face value,

00:22:00.280 even though it's a complete absurdity

00:22:01.520 and what follows suit,

00:22:02.740 you know,

00:22:03.040 on some case

00:22:03.860 can be put in their lap.

00:22:05.300 So they used to,

00:22:06.440 what 4chan would go,

00:22:07.880 would be known for is,

00:22:09.960 you know,

00:22:10.160 for example,

00:22:10.680 you had a Mountain Dew, right?

00:22:12.800 And they had named

00:22:13.680 the next flavor of Mountain Dew.

00:22:15.120 It's just a corporate mechanism.

00:22:16.660 I talk about this in the book.

00:22:17.700 It's a corporate mechanism

00:22:18.540 to sell, you know,

00:22:19.340 your sugary soft drink.

00:22:20.780 What name should we call it?

00:22:22.400 And they basically

00:22:23.180 got enough people together,

00:22:24.400 and this is kind of like

00:22:25.120 rent-seeking, right?

00:22:25.920 If you have an organized

00:22:27.080 goal-seeking minority

00:22:29.500 as opposed to

00:22:30.100 an indifferent majority,

00:22:31.300 that organized goal-seeking minority

00:22:32.940 is going to be able to punch

00:22:34.060 very much above its weight

00:22:35.300 in terms of getting

00:22:36.280 the achievements it wants.

00:22:37.400 How many people are caring

00:22:38.260 about this Mountain Dew poll?

00:22:39.560 Very, very few

00:22:40.600 other than the trolls.

00:22:42.320 So they got the number one result

00:22:44.200 to be Hitler did nothing wrong, right?

00:22:46.580 Now, they're not Nazis.

00:22:48.060 They're not,

00:22:48.440 they don't think the Holocaust

00:22:49.240 is something that is,

00:22:51.020 didn't happen or is bad.

00:22:52.360 They're putting now

00:22:53.420 this Mountain Dew

00:22:54.560 who's trying to use this fun

00:22:56.940 to sell you this poisonous,

00:22:58.800 sugary garbage.

00:22:59.740 Now the corporation is in position,

00:23:01.840 are they going to follow

00:23:02.860 through with this poll

00:23:03.880 or are they going to pull it?

00:23:05.980 Whatever they choose,

00:23:07.140 they have been forced

00:23:07.900 into making a choice

00:23:08.860 that they themselves

00:23:09.760 would not have wanted

00:23:10.980 because you have someone

00:23:11.900 in a meeting trying to,

00:23:13.560 hey, this is going to be fun

00:23:14.540 for the kids.

00:23:15.360 And they ended up pulling the poll

00:23:17.440 because they're like,

00:23:17.980 okay, the internet won.

00:23:19.460 So to go from that

00:23:21.620 and this kind of extreme distrust,

00:23:24.780 if not contempt,

00:23:25.880 for corporate irreverence

00:23:27.340 and corporate humor

00:23:28.160 and corporate fun

00:23:29.020 to have basically,

00:23:30.940 can I curse on this?

00:23:32.080 You can do whatever you want.

00:23:33.260 Okay, well, not everything.

00:23:34.800 So to have someone

00:23:36.560 who was basically

00:23:37.240 a shit poster on Twitter

00:23:38.520 running for president

00:23:39.940 who was just there

00:23:42.500 in these debates

00:23:43.480 insulting these politicians

00:23:45.000 to their face

00:23:46.460 and often very below

00:23:47.720 the belt terms,

00:23:48.860 that was that ethos

00:23:50.220 brought to life

00:23:51.040 because no one could have imagined

00:23:52.480 in decades

00:23:53.740 that you would have

00:23:54.840 a presidential contender

00:23:56.120 who's looking at

00:23:57.180 a sitting senator

00:23:58.060 in the face

00:23:58.840 who's doing well

00:24:00.300 in the polls

00:24:00.940 and telling that senator,

00:24:02.940 I've never made fun

00:24:03.760 of your looks

00:24:04.360 and there's plenty

00:24:05.400 of material there.

00:24:06.460 Believe me,

00:24:06.900 that much I can tell you.

00:24:08.320 You know,

00:24:08.660 this is something

00:24:09.340 that was completely

00:24:10.060 unprecedented new

00:24:10.980 and we've been taught

00:24:12.280 for decades

00:24:13.080 that, you know,

00:24:15.160 politics should be

00:24:15.900 about respect.

00:24:16.740 These are tough choices.

00:24:17.780 These are people's lives.

00:24:18.680 That's all very true,

00:24:20.000 but there's this very new left

00:24:21.880 from the late 60s perspective

00:24:23.560 idea that these kind

00:24:26.300 of powerful entities

00:24:27.280 use respect

00:24:28.500 and decorum

00:24:29.440 and decency

00:24:30.040 as a mechanism

00:24:31.460 to stifle dissent

00:24:32.820 and to basically

00:24:34.000 make their victory

00:24:35.900 a fait accompli.

00:24:37.200 And if you kind of

00:24:38.140 mess that up

00:24:38.860 and force them

00:24:39.660 to show their hand

00:24:40.700 that these are not

00:24:41.760 kind, caring people

00:24:43.340 who care about your grandma

00:24:44.820 and your neighborhood,

00:24:45.760 these are power-hungry sociopaths

00:24:47.860 who will smile at your face

00:24:49.160 and do whatever they need to

00:24:50.080 when the lights are off,

00:24:51.040 that, I think,

00:24:52.240 was something

00:24:52.880 that was very useful

00:24:53.640 in terms of exposing

00:24:55.080 our politics

00:24:55.700 for what they are.

00:24:57.220 So, it struck me

00:24:59.340 over the last decade or so

00:25:00.780 that the alignment

00:25:02.020 of comedic satire

00:25:03.680 with right-wing philosophy

00:25:05.460 or political philosophy

00:25:07.040 or views

00:25:07.480 was something

00:25:08.260 that was completely,

00:25:09.260 also completely unprecedented.

00:25:11.340 I thought,

00:25:12.360 well, all of a sudden

00:25:13.480 the right-wing

00:25:14.220 are the jesters

00:25:15.600 or at least

00:25:16.840 among the right-wing

00:25:17.780 are these jesters

00:25:18.760 and I really didn't know

00:25:20.040 what to make of that.

00:25:20.840 I mean, you seem to regard it

00:25:22.180 in your book,

00:25:22.860 The New Right,

00:25:23.520 you seem to regard it

00:25:24.860 as a kind of right-wing

00:25:27.940 anarchic rebellion

00:25:29.120 against,

00:25:30.420 but it's strange

00:25:31.280 what they're against

00:25:32.800 because on the one hand

00:25:33.760 there's the corporate voice,

00:25:36.000 let's say,

00:25:36.500 that characterizes the media

00:25:37.760 and on the other hand

00:25:39.620 there's the left-wing progressives

00:25:41.140 and you can't really put them

00:25:42.840 in the same camp

00:25:43.820 all that easily.

00:25:45.480 Well, hopefully,

00:25:46.300 we will be putting them

00:25:47.060 in the same camp.

00:25:48.720 But they are in the same camp

00:25:50.500 because one of my quotes

00:25:51.400 is conservatism

00:25:52.260 is progressivism

00:25:53.060 driving the speed limit.

00:25:54.600 So much of conservatism,

00:25:56.440 Buckley got his start,

00:25:57.600 William F. Buckley,

00:25:58.340 who's the,

00:25:58.840 I think,

00:25:59.140 the big villain of the book,

00:26:00.320 got his start

00:26:01.020 complaining how

00:26:02.000 terrible things are

00:26:03.300 and how mistreated

00:26:04.060 he was at Yale.

00:26:05.420 The New Right perspective

00:26:06.580 isn't complaining

00:26:07.340 about how things are at Yale,

00:26:08.440 it's let's send tanks

00:26:10.120 to Harvard Yard

00:26:11.300 and raise it to the ground.

00:26:13.000 So these are

00:26:13.500 two different approaches

00:26:14.540 and much of conservatism

00:26:16.280 for decades,

00:26:17.060 besides being inherently humorless,

00:26:19.020 which is a personality thing,

00:26:20.360 which is perfectly fine

00:26:21.460 if that's your thing,

00:26:22.780 it has been about a reaction.

00:26:24.880 So the left would have

00:26:26.000 some idea of the moment

00:26:27.420 we need to do this and that,

00:26:28.920 the right would just

00:26:29.600 dig in their heels

00:26:30.440 and get dragged along

00:26:31.580 and it's a ratchet effect

00:26:33.120 constantly moving us

00:26:34.360 toward a more

00:26:35.020 and more progressive society.

00:26:36.920 The National Review's slogan

00:26:38.760 was standing

00:26:40.060 athwart history

00:26:40.800 yelling stop

00:26:41.660 and then at a certain point

00:26:43.080 people realized,

00:26:44.100 how about instead of yelling,

00:26:45.660 we actually stop it?

00:26:47.000 How about we actually

00:26:47.780 try to put a wrench

00:26:48.800 into these gears?

00:26:49.720 How about we try to,

00:26:50.940 you know,

00:26:51.380 metaphorically tar and feather

00:26:52.780 some of these people

00:26:53.640 instead of just complaining

00:26:54.980 that it's not fair?

00:26:55.940 Let's be aggressive

00:26:56.840 and let's take the fight to them.

00:26:58.000 Okay, and you see,

00:26:58.880 you clearly see an analog

00:27:00.180 between the tricks

00:27:01.320 that Trump used,

00:27:02.180 let's say,

00:27:02.540 the humorous tricks

00:27:03.280 that he used

00:27:03.840 and the manner

00:27:04.960 in which he appealed

00:27:05.720 to the public

00:27:06.300 and whatever was going on

00:27:08.220 in places like 4chan

00:27:09.660 and on Reddit

00:27:10.740 and with memes as well.

00:27:12.160 And you spend a lot of time

00:27:13.780 in your book

00:27:14.240 talking about Pepe,

00:27:15.300 for example.

00:27:15.920 So what is it

00:27:17.460 that you see

00:27:18.320 as the connection?

00:27:19.560 I mean, look,

00:27:20.200 I saw this t-shirt

00:27:21.060 in Florida last year

00:27:22.360 that I thought

00:27:23.460 was really apropos.

00:27:25.020 It said,

00:27:25.600 Trump 2020

00:27:27.320 because fuck you twice.

00:27:29.540 Yeah.

00:27:29.880 And I thought,

00:27:30.620 yes,

00:27:30.900 there's something about that

00:27:31.960 that's really interesting.

00:27:33.960 And I've talked

00:27:35.980 to my progressive friends

00:27:37.160 about this a lot

00:27:38.160 because I'm trying

00:27:39.800 to figure out

00:27:40.300 exactly what's going on

00:27:41.340 and being appalled

00:27:42.760 at least to some degree

00:27:44.080 at the shenanigans

00:27:45.460 of the Democrats

00:27:46.760 among others,

00:27:47.460 especially the identity

00:27:48.360 politics types

00:27:49.240 because, look,

00:27:50.240 I'll tell you

00:27:50.860 what I see

00:27:52.000 in relationship

00:27:52.880 to my books,

00:27:53.820 for example.

00:27:54.920 So, hypothetically,

00:27:57.260 this is the standard

00:27:59.100 legacy media critique

00:28:00.840 of my books,

00:28:02.180 I would say,

00:28:02.800 is that I'm peddling

00:28:03.800 nonsense

00:28:06.080 that if not trite

00:28:07.400 is outright dangerous,

00:28:08.520 which is kind of

00:28:09.520 a strange combination,

00:28:10.920 to ne'er-do-wells

00:28:12.460 who are so far

00:28:13.780 beneath contempt

00:28:14.680 that any attempt

00:28:15.800 to help them

00:28:16.480 is to be met

00:28:17.400 with suspicion.

00:28:19.060 And that's something

00:28:19.880 that really,

00:28:20.460 really puzzles me

00:28:23.160 because when I meet

00:28:24.380 the people

00:28:24.860 that I'm communicating

00:28:25.760 with,

00:28:26.460 you know,

00:28:27.200 when I walk around

00:28:28.080 or when I go

00:28:28.600 to my lectures,

00:28:29.660 you know,

00:28:30.100 I see individuals,

00:28:31.360 because I look

00:28:31.860 at individuals,

00:28:32.540 I see individuals

00:28:33.280 who are trying

00:28:34.940 to get their houses

00:28:36.680 in order

00:28:37.220 who are often

00:28:38.300 in desperate straits

00:28:39.620 and they come up

00:28:40.580 to me and tell me,

00:28:42.060 you know,

00:28:42.380 some step they've

00:28:43.520 taken towards improvement,

00:28:44.980 sort of shamefacedly,

00:28:46.440 but also happy about it

00:28:48.000 and, you know,

00:28:48.760 I'm very happy

00:28:50.320 that that's happening

00:28:51.180 and tell them that

00:28:52.020 and that's my experience,

00:28:53.580 but then I see

00:28:54.320 in the response

00:28:56.400 to my hypothetical audience,

00:28:57.960 which is a misrepresentation

00:28:59.180 to begin with,

00:29:00.140 nothing,

00:29:00.840 a contempt that's so deep

00:29:02.280 that the contempt

00:29:02.980 is even there

00:29:03.640 for the attempt to help.

00:29:04.860 And then I think,

00:29:05.960 well,

00:29:06.080 you progressive types,

00:29:07.040 at least in principle,

00:29:08.160 you're all for the downtrodden,

00:29:10.540 but I don't know what it is.

00:29:12.060 Maybe if they stay

00:29:13.020 in their place

00:29:13.680 and act like they're supposed to,

00:29:15.160 there's this contempt

00:29:16.440 among the helping class,

00:29:19.040 let's say,

00:29:19.560 for those they're

00:29:20.160 hypothetically helping

00:29:21.100 that's so deep that,

00:29:22.580 and I think it,

00:29:23.340 I think it destroyed

00:29:24.380 Hillary Clinton's campaign,

00:29:25.640 that contempt,

00:29:26.540 her comments

00:29:27.180 about the basket

00:29:27.980 of deplorables

00:29:28.820 and the Democrat abandonment

00:29:31.100 of the working class

00:29:32.840 and Trump tapped

00:29:34.820 into that somehow

00:29:35.860 and you draw connections

00:29:37.700 and so I'd like you

00:29:38.660 to elaborate on that

00:29:39.600 a little bit

00:29:40.040 if you would.

00:29:41.320 Sure,

00:29:41.700 and whenever I try

00:29:42.580 to talk about people,

00:29:43.560 I always try to steel man

00:29:44.440 their arguments

00:29:44.940 and present them

00:29:45.660 in the most strong

00:29:46.440 position possible.

00:29:47.820 When the left

00:29:48.580 is at its best,

00:29:49.540 as you mentioned,

00:29:50.640 it is about concerning

00:29:51.720 about marginalized people,

00:29:52.760 people who are forgotten.

00:29:54.780 The far left,

00:29:55.860 you know,

00:29:56.100 historically,

00:29:56.760 would care about

00:29:57.700 prisoners' rights

00:29:58.480 and how bad it is

00:29:59.720 that this prisoner

00:30:00.300 is treated.

00:30:00.720 For most people,

00:30:02.140 it's kind of like

00:30:02.820 lock them up,

00:30:03.360 throw away the key

00:30:04.100 and that's kind of

00:30:04.960 a left-wing idea

00:30:05.780 that like this guy

00:30:06.460 has been forgotten,

00:30:07.540 let's make sure

00:30:08.080 he has food,

00:30:08.700 he's not being assaulted

00:30:10.040 on a daily basis,

00:30:10.880 things like that.

00:30:11.760 So they understand also

00:30:12.760 in other contexts

00:30:13.620 that when you have

00:30:14.960 young males

00:30:16.020 who have nothing to lose,

00:30:18.200 who are completely marginalized,

00:30:20.040 who are spat on

00:30:21.200 and called every name

00:30:22.520 in the book,

00:30:23.120 in other contexts,

00:30:24.760 whether the Middle East,

00:30:26.000 in inner city,

00:30:27.000 they realize

00:30:27.700 you keep pushing

00:30:28.840 someone at the bottom

00:30:29.760 and keep telling him

00:30:31.020 you're nothing,

00:30:31.720 you deserve to have nothing,

00:30:33.640 that young male

00:30:34.560 is going to,

00:30:35.180 at the very least,

00:30:35.880 try to get some kind

00:30:36.600 of modicum of respect,

00:30:37.840 try to get some modicum of status

00:30:39.200 and this often has

00:30:40.540 literally very violent consequences

00:30:42.860 because if I have

00:30:44.200 nothing to lose

00:30:45.060 but I can make a name

00:30:46.160 for myself

00:30:46.720 or I could for five minutes

00:30:48.180 have a sense of power,

00:30:49.680 some people are going

00:30:50.620 to do that arithmetic

00:30:51.500 and it's a very,

00:30:52.960 very bad thing

00:30:54.100 and this is,

00:30:54.800 broadly speaking,

00:30:56.220 understood.

00:30:56.280 So everyone will do

00:30:57.120 that arithmetic virtually

00:30:58.200 as unfair equality multiplies,

00:31:01.460 unfair inequality multiplies,

00:31:03.580 that just becomes

00:31:04.760 more and more likely,

00:31:05.620 that response.

00:31:07.360 But to your point is,

00:31:09.360 so in other contexts

00:31:10.400 they understand this

00:31:11.220 but now we're talking

00:31:11.960 about your audience,

00:31:12.900 right,

00:31:13.060 these are young men

00:31:14.700 who aren't doing so hot

00:31:16.240 and now they're being told

00:31:17.600 they don't have a girlfriend,

00:31:20.400 they desperately want

00:31:21.320 to have a girlfriend

00:31:21.960 and now they're told

00:31:23.140 you're a loser

00:31:23.740 for not having a girlfriend.

00:31:24.800 It's like,

00:31:25.500 well,

00:31:25.640 I'm trying to get

00:31:26.400 out of that situation.

00:31:27.540 I'm not trying

00:31:28.120 to be some kind

00:31:28.760 of a date rapist.

00:31:30.040 I'm not trying

00:31:30.560 to be some sexual predator.

00:31:32.080 I just want to be normal.

00:31:33.440 I just want to have

00:31:34.080 Maslow's hierarchy

00:31:34.940 of needs met

00:31:35.720 but because they have been

00:31:37.540 assigned to be,

00:31:39.860 you're supposed to be here

00:31:41.100 at the bottom,

00:31:41.720 you've had your turn,

00:31:42.880 you're the whipping boy

00:31:43.860 of the moment,

00:31:44.700 on an individual level

00:31:46.160 this is going to have

00:31:47.300 very deleterious consequences

00:31:49.440 and because you are telling them,

00:31:51.840 listen,

00:31:52.460 you don't have to be,

00:31:53.280 even if you're going

00:31:54.100 to be at the bottom,

00:31:54.900 you could still be

00:31:55.400 a better person tomorrow

00:31:56.420 than you are today,

00:31:57.780 well, now you're kind

00:31:58.760 of going to their house

00:31:59.700 and rearranging

00:32:00.300 their furniture

00:32:00.900 and messing up their schemes

00:32:03.020 so of course they're going

00:32:03.820 to react in very aggressive

00:32:05.540 ways towards your teachings,

00:32:06.780 I think.

00:32:07.080 Well, it's funny too

00:32:08.160 because that notion

00:32:09.660 of my audience

00:32:10.300 is a caricature

00:32:11.080 to begin with,

00:32:11.980 but I don't care

00:32:13.080 about that in some sense.

00:32:14.240 I'm interested

00:32:14.780 that the caricaturing

00:32:15.840 is occurring,

00:32:16.700 it's like there's

00:32:17.180 a reason for it,

00:32:18.300 why they're all male,

00:32:20.020 they're all angry,

00:32:21.200 they're all white,

00:32:21.860 it's like,

00:32:22.380 no, that's not right

00:32:23.540 and even if they do

00:32:25.700 skew male,

00:32:26.600 that's at least in part

00:32:27.740 a legacy hangover

00:32:28.920 from the fact

00:32:29.520 that most of the people

00:32:30.320 who watch YouTube

00:32:31.000 are male,

00:32:33.020 but anyways,

00:32:34.220 nonetheless,

00:32:34.700 that's the categorization,

00:32:36.280 but then there's

00:32:36.800 the emergence

00:32:37.260 of that contempt

00:32:38.180 and I think,

00:32:38.860 well,

00:32:39.460 that is driving,

00:32:41.380 just as you pointed

00:32:42.520 out there,

00:32:43.140 that insistence

00:32:46.060 upon the despicableness

00:32:47.840 of that status

00:32:48.960 is driving,

00:32:49.980 I could see that

00:32:50.660 in the 4chan,

00:32:51.620 in the writing

00:32:52.100 about 4chan

00:32:52.700 that you were doing,

00:32:53.620 that there's a testing

00:32:55.840 and a pushing back

00:32:56.840 that's going on there

00:32:57.780 and some of it

00:32:58.820 is clowning

00:32:59.460 and some of it

00:33:00.000 is like pointless

00:33:01.060 troublemaking

00:33:01.740 as far as I'm concerned,

00:33:02.800 but there's more

00:33:03.340 going on in there

00:33:04.040 than that

00:33:04.540 and that's for sure.

00:33:06.340 So,

00:33:06.820 and then it coalesces

00:33:08.020 around these right,

00:33:09.120 these more right-wing ideas

00:33:10.600 which I also find

00:33:11.560 somewhat surprising

00:33:12.400 and so what do you make,

00:33:13.280 what do you make

00:33:13.820 of that exactly?

00:33:15.020 Is it because

00:33:15.560 those ideas

00:33:16.260 are the ones

00:33:16.840 that are most specifically

00:33:17.860 forbidden

00:33:18.440 and the satirical

00:33:20.800 comic rebellious types

00:33:22.260 just glom onto them

00:33:23.420 for that

00:33:23.860 or what do you think it is?

00:33:25.300 I think you hit

00:33:26.020 the nail on the head.

00:33:26.920 It's that if you tell someone

00:33:28.660 who's got nothing going on

00:33:30.360 and you say,

00:33:31.260 you know,

00:33:31.440 if you push this button

00:33:32.360 right here,

00:33:33.240 it's going to have

00:33:34.080 some really hilarious

00:33:35.000 consequences

00:33:35.760 for some people

00:33:36.740 who think they're better

00:33:37.880 than you

00:33:38.260 and have no problem

00:33:39.100 telling you to your face

00:33:39.980 they're better than you,

00:33:40.800 a lot of people

00:33:41.660 are going to push that button

00:33:42.740 especially when the results

00:33:43.940 are often hilarious.

00:33:45.880 So it is going to give them

00:33:46.780 that sense of power

00:33:47.720 and I don't know

00:33:48.580 that they're making

00:33:49.060 the wrong choice.

00:33:50.500 I don't think

00:33:51.360 it's very useful

00:33:52.300 to tell someone

00:33:53.900 who's not really

00:33:54.680 being particularly aggressive

00:33:55.880 that, you know,

00:33:57.520 you suck

00:33:58.060 and you're terrible

00:33:58.740 and you know what it is?

00:34:00.460 Like, I don't make fun

00:34:01.220 of people for being overweight.

00:34:02.520 Like, I go after people

00:34:03.300 for a lot of things.

00:34:04.480 I don't go after people

00:34:05.680 who are going overweight.

00:34:06.380 I had a friend

00:34:06.760 who passed away

00:34:07.400 because he had morbid obesity.

00:34:08.760 I had another friend

00:34:09.300 who had a gastric bypass

00:34:10.400 because when you make fun

00:34:11.960 of someone who's overweight,

00:34:12.860 you're making fun

00:34:13.620 of all your friends

00:34:14.380 who are overweight.

00:34:14.880 You know, they're seeing it as well.

00:34:16.280 And here's the thing.

00:34:17.240 That person knows

00:34:18.360 they're overweight.

00:34:19.320 They know they're going

00:34:20.120 to be treated differently.

00:34:21.160 They know they're going

00:34:21.680 to be, you know,

00:34:23.020 looked down on

00:34:24.420 and all these other things.

00:34:25.260 They're painfully aware.

00:34:26.740 And it's the same thing here.

00:34:27.780 If someone is marginalized

00:34:29.040 and you're calling him a loser,

00:34:31.400 he knows he's a loser.

00:34:32.760 At that point,

00:34:33.540 it just becomes

00:34:34.060 a bit of cruelty

00:34:34.740 and bullying.

00:34:35.820 And also,

00:34:36.700 anytime you try

00:34:37.540 to tell someone,

00:34:38.340 especially in America

00:34:39.320 or in the West at least,

00:34:40.840 to sit down and shut up,

00:34:42.300 it's like,

00:34:42.980 who are you

00:34:44.100 to tell me

00:34:45.400 to sit down and shut up?

00:34:47.220 Because now you don't have

00:34:48.280 the power to tell me

00:34:49.060 to sit down and shut up.

00:34:50.080 You had that power in school.

00:34:51.800 You have that power

00:34:52.500 in the office.

00:34:53.360 Maybe you had that power

00:34:54.320 when there were three networks.

00:34:56.100 Now that there's

00:34:56.620 infinite networks,

00:34:57.400 if you look at the internet,

00:34:58.460 you can't silence me.

00:34:59.740 So I am going to talk.

00:35:00.900 And if I see that

00:35:01.640 it's upsetting you

00:35:02.500 and you hate me

00:35:03.560 even though you don't know me,

00:35:05.140 yeah,

00:35:05.840 it's going to be of value

00:35:06.740 for me to upset you

00:35:07.580 because I do think

00:35:08.460 you're a bad actor,

00:35:09.380 I think is the mindset.

00:35:10.460 And I don't think

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00:38:00.420 So let's dig into

00:38:01.560 that a little bit.

00:38:02.280 I mean,

00:38:02.480 I got memed like mad

00:38:03.940 when I first rose

00:38:05.000 to whatever prominence

00:38:06.200 I've risen to

00:38:06.960 or notoriety

00:38:08.080 or whatever.

00:38:09.700 There were memes

00:38:10.360 and I think

00:38:11.320 that's probably

00:38:11.940 still the case.

00:38:12.660 There are memes

00:38:13.260 being generated

00:38:14.060 in the hundreds

00:38:15.360 like weekly.

00:38:16.620 It was crazy.

00:38:17.380 And I was watching

00:38:19.620 them and I thought

00:38:20.520 if I behave myself

00:38:24.340 properly,

00:38:25.140 those won't get

00:38:26.780 unbearably cruel.

00:38:28.760 Okay.

00:38:29.420 I thought if I can

00:38:30.520 take a joke,

00:38:31.620 then they're going

00:38:34.380 to tilt in a manner

00:38:35.320 that's more positive

00:38:36.240 rather than more negative

00:38:37.200 because I could see

00:38:37.960 that there was a testing

00:38:38.960 going on there.

00:38:40.160 You know,

00:38:40.880 that these jokes

00:38:41.840 were being pushed

00:38:42.840 at me and I suppose

00:38:43.680 to some degree

00:38:44.220 pushed at whoever

00:38:44.960 was listening to me

00:38:46.100 and had I responded

00:38:48.120 negatively to that

00:38:49.280 in any...

00:38:51.200 I remember

00:38:51.820 when I worked

00:38:52.440 on working class

00:38:53.280 working crews,

00:38:54.320 you know,

00:38:54.660 that one of the things

00:38:55.540 that almost always

00:38:56.220 happened was that

00:38:56.980 when someone new

00:38:57.940 joined a crew,

00:38:59.520 there'd be a test period

00:39:00.720 where, you know,

00:39:02.200 various forms of insults

00:39:03.700 and it would be

00:39:05.060 hurled at them

00:39:05.840 and it was an attempt

00:39:07.160 to see how they responded

00:39:08.400 and if they responded

00:39:09.320 with good humor

00:39:10.160 and accepted

00:39:11.700 their stupid nickname

00:39:12.640 with some good grace

00:39:13.800 and could laugh about it

00:39:15.100 and maybe could say

00:39:15.900 something funny

00:39:16.520 in return,

00:39:17.120 then, you know,

00:39:17.960 after a week or two,

00:39:19.080 if they did their job,

00:39:20.120 then everybody accepted them

00:39:21.320 and away they went

00:39:22.300 but if they got all

00:39:23.220 uptight about it

00:39:24.760 and angry,

00:39:25.580 then it just got meaner

00:39:26.760 and meaner

00:39:27.200 until they were driven off

00:39:28.500 and I could see that

00:39:29.940 happening with the memes

00:39:30.920 and, you know,

00:39:31.480 I was compared to

00:39:32.600 Kermit the Frog,

00:39:33.800 for example,

00:39:34.400 and that sort of morphed

00:39:35.200 into a peppy thing

00:39:36.180 and I was watching that

00:39:38.020 and hopefully was able

00:39:39.820 to take a joke

00:39:40.520 when one emerged

00:39:41.900 and at least

00:39:43.000 one of the consequences

00:39:44.120 of that seemed to be

00:39:45.080 that it never got

00:39:46.900 truly toxic

00:39:48.280 and so I'm struggling

00:39:50.360 with the morality

00:39:51.260 of the 4chan approach,

00:39:53.040 you know,

00:39:53.260 because there's a part

00:39:54.360 of me that thinks,

00:39:55.140 Jesus Christ,

00:39:55.960 don't you have anything

00:39:56.580 better to do?

00:39:57.660 But there's also a part

00:39:58.680 of me that thinks,

00:39:59.340 well, wait a second,

00:40:00.060 there's something really

00:40:00.740 complicated going on here

00:40:01.920 that has to do with

00:40:02.760 the redistribution of power

00:40:04.080 and also the acquisition

00:40:06.080 of a voice

00:40:07.140 by people who are

00:40:08.260 individuals

00:40:08.820 and not part of

00:40:09.840 a corporate group,

00:40:10.900 let's say,

00:40:11.280 but who have access

00:40:12.080 to tremendous

00:40:12.720 technological power

00:40:13.780 and they're serving

00:40:15.060 the function of gestures

00:40:16.160 and they're serving

00:40:17.160 the function of comedians

00:40:18.340 and I think comedians

00:40:20.240 in particular

00:40:20.840 are the canaries

00:40:22.000 in the coal mine

00:40:22.800 for a free culture.

00:40:24.400 As soon as the comedians

00:40:25.500 are threatened,

00:40:26.840 you know something's,

00:40:28.480 as soon as the comedians

00:40:29.360 are nervous,

00:40:30.300 you know something's up

00:40:31.360 because you should be

00:40:32.580 allowed to make fun.

00:40:34.440 The biggest meme of yours

00:40:35.780 that I use this meme

00:40:36.760 of yours constantly

00:40:37.640 on Twitter

00:40:38.160 is the Kathy Newman meme

00:40:39.520 and one of those examples

00:40:41.160 is, you know,

00:40:41.640 that famous interview

00:40:42.300 you had for people

00:40:42.840 who don't know

00:40:43.260 where you were saying

00:40:44.240 things that were

00:40:44.840 pretty straightforward

00:40:45.460 or maybe people

00:40:46.360 disagreed with you

00:40:47.240 and she would just

00:40:48.760 ask you a question

00:40:49.640 that seemed to be

00:40:50.440 a complete non sequitur

00:40:51.340 to what you had just said

00:40:52.300 and this kept going on

00:40:53.140 for the whole time.

00:40:54.180 The one that comes to mind

00:40:55.660 is a picture of you saying

00:40:57.140 I had bacon and eggs

00:40:58.320 for breakfast

00:40:58.820 and her reply is

00:41:00.100 so you're saying

00:41:01.000 kill all vegans.

00:41:02.940 So oftentimes

00:41:03.500 if someone,

00:41:04.360 if you have something

00:41:04.980 on Twitter

00:41:05.340 and someone responds

00:41:06.440 with a non sequitur approach,

00:41:08.320 you just reply

00:41:08.960 with a picture of her

00:41:09.860 and people right away know,

00:41:11.280 oh, so what you're saying

00:41:12.080 is that it has nothing

00:41:12.780 to do with what it is

00:41:13.780 you're actually saying.

00:41:14.740 I think what you are saying

00:41:16.560 to be the opposite

00:41:17.680 of Kathy Newman

00:41:18.280 in this context

00:41:19.060 is accurate

00:41:20.000 in that a lot

00:41:21.360 of powerful people

00:41:22.440 are there through inertia,

00:41:24.680 are there through nepotism,

00:41:26.920 are there through,

00:41:27.720 you know,

00:41:27.980 corporate memes

00:41:28.660 because they play the game.

00:41:30.540 If I'm not part of the game,

00:41:32.140 why should I be playing the game?

00:41:33.940 And here's the other thing

00:41:34.800 where I think

00:41:35.280 these people are heroes

00:41:37.580 is the thing

00:41:39.920 that they're best at

00:41:41.200 is when it comes

00:41:42.360 to the thing

00:41:42.880 that is the worst,

00:41:43.640 which is war.

00:41:44.660 We are constantly

00:41:45.660 proselytized

00:41:47.200 in corporate media

00:41:48.340 that war is great,

00:41:49.860 we need to have people overseas,

00:41:51.180 we need to have more,

00:41:51.880 more, more troops,

00:41:52.760 more whatever.

00:41:53.760 If you have a president

00:41:55.500 who is regarded

00:41:56.500 as contemptible,

00:41:57.740 if you look at Trump

00:41:58.580 versus Barack Obama,

00:42:00.200 it's a lot harder

00:42:01.360 for that president

00:42:02.140 who isn't venerated

00:42:03.240 to send young men

00:42:04.540 and women to die

00:42:05.460 because if there's

00:42:06.920 a skepticism

00:42:07.680 about his pedestal

00:42:09.520 that he's on,

00:42:10.260 right away,

00:42:11.060 you really have to make sure

00:42:12.300 you're selling this war

00:42:13.360 or otherwise

00:42:14.780 there's going to be this,

00:42:15.700 it's just easy to clown you

00:42:17.040 because the arguments

00:42:18.000 used for these wars

00:42:19.060 are often so ridiculous

00:42:20.300 on their face.

00:42:21.940 So,

00:42:22.660 what was the conclusion

00:42:24.500 that you've drawn now?

00:42:26.560 It's been a couple of years

00:42:27.360 since you wrote

00:42:28.140 The New Right.

00:42:30.000 So,

00:42:30.660 and

00:42:30.980 what are your later thoughts

00:42:34.940 on boards such as 4chan

00:42:37.600 and what's happening

00:42:38.460 in 4chan now?

00:42:40.760 It doesn't seem to...

00:42:42.320 Yeah,

00:42:42.760 I think 4chan has to some extent

00:42:44.220 fallen away

00:42:44.760 as a cultural force.

00:42:45.920 I mean,

00:42:46.140 they were trying to meme

00:42:48.100 Trump into the presidency

00:42:49.160 and that happened successfully

00:42:50.440 in 2016.

00:42:52.800 The Donald,

00:42:53.420 which was the board on Reddit,

00:42:54.780 was banned

00:42:55.360 during the election.

00:42:56.820 I think they respond

00:42:57.760 as the Donald.win

00:42:58.940 and these other,

00:43:00.180 you know,

00:43:00.680 and again,

00:43:01.040 with these decentralized things,

00:43:02.240 if you try to figure out

00:43:03.180 where everyone's going,

00:43:04.460 you know,

00:43:04.740 then you're going to have subgroups.

00:43:06.120 People define themselves

00:43:07.140 by opposition,

00:43:08.360 not by unity.

00:43:09.060 So,

00:43:09.460 anyone who has any kind

00:43:10.700 of ideology

00:43:11.340 will tell you

00:43:12.300 the people they argue

00:43:13.080 with the most

00:43:13.620 are the ones

00:43:14.120 who are basically

00:43:14.720 one degree of separation

00:43:15.880 away from them

00:43:17.000 within that ideology.

00:43:17.980 So,

00:43:18.700 I think right now

00:43:19.640 there is kind of

00:43:20.600 a what happens next

00:43:22.460 now that there's

00:43:23.140 a Biden presidency,

00:43:24.420 but the focus

00:43:25.840 has shifted

00:43:26.780 and I think

00:43:27.760 this is extremely healthy

00:43:28.960 for those of us

00:43:29.600 who value liberty.

00:43:30.660 It has shifted

00:43:31.520 from Washington,

00:43:32.540 and this has always been

00:43:33.360 kind of the background,

00:43:34.640 to corporate media

00:43:35.820 and understanding

00:43:37.280 that Nancy Pelosi

00:43:38.400 and Joe Biden

00:43:40.300 and Mitch McConnell

00:43:41.180 and Ted Cruz

00:43:42.080 will never despise you

00:43:43.920 and will never have

00:43:44.720 as much contempt for you

00:43:45.920 as the editorial board

00:43:47.300 of the New York Times

00:43:48.060 or the people

00:43:49.120 at the New Yorker.

00:43:50.440 It's,

00:43:50.560 it's,

00:43:50.880 they're much,

00:43:52.140 or let alone

00:43:53.540 many academics.

00:43:55.020 So,

00:43:55.320 having the trolling

00:43:58.040 and the memes

00:43:58.860 be much more focused

00:44:00.100 on what

00:44:01.140 Ventress Moldebuck

00:44:02.120 calls the cathedral.

00:44:02.880 why do you think that's,

00:44:05.000 do you think that's true

00:44:06.300 and why do you think

00:44:07.360 that's true?

00:44:07.720 Because that's quite

00:44:08.220 a radical statement,

00:44:09.200 I would say,

00:44:09.640 but I think it does speak

00:44:11.160 to this t-shirt

00:44:12.640 that I mentioned earlier.

00:44:15.340 Yeah.

00:44:15.500 You know,

00:44:15.860 so your,

00:44:16.620 your sense,

00:44:17.380 what you just told me

00:44:18.220 was that there is

00:44:19.600 this elite contempt

00:44:21.080 and to some degree

00:44:22.840 it was associated

00:44:23.720 with the political class

00:44:25.160 but on further analysis,

00:44:26.900 it's not the political class,

00:44:28.940 it's the chattering literati,

00:44:31.120 the chattering educated literati

00:44:32.820 and I actually happen

00:44:34.260 to think that that's the case,

00:44:35.660 that that's actually true.

00:44:37.320 So,

00:44:37.800 why do you believe that?

00:44:40.460 Sure,

00:44:40.900 I'll give you a couple

00:44:41.720 of examples.

00:44:42.140 First of all,

00:44:42.680 the arch villains,

00:44:43.680 and I'm not trying

00:44:45.260 to troll you,

00:44:46.340 are the university professors.

00:44:47.980 That's where the poisoning

00:44:49.260 really,

00:44:49.800 really starts

00:44:50.400 but let me give you

00:44:51.400 an example

00:44:51.840 to demonstrate

00:44:52.480 which is wagging the dog

00:44:53.700 whether it's,

00:44:54.300 because it used to be

00:44:55.400 the argument

00:44:55.780 was about Washington.

00:44:57.000 Andrew Breitbart,

00:44:57.840 you know,

00:44:58.040 who certainly falls

00:44:58.740 into this new right

00:44:59.520 kind of context

00:45:00.480 made the quote

00:45:01.420 about politics

00:45:02.040 being downstream of culture

00:45:03.300 and the idea was,

00:45:04.640 wait a minute,

00:45:05.000 if we're fighting

00:45:05.560 in Washington,

00:45:06.780 by that time

00:45:07.460 it's already,

00:45:08.040 you know,

00:45:08.420 fourth down

00:45:08.960 and we're down

00:45:09.480 how many points,

00:45:10.120 it's the consequence

00:45:11.920 of what led up to this.

00:45:13.560 Let's suppose

00:45:14.180 I was a democratic

00:45:15.400 congresswoman

00:45:16.380 or congressman

00:45:17.300 and I thought

00:45:18.620 President Trump

00:45:19.380 was a Nazi,

00:45:20.680 Klansman,

00:45:21.360 horrible Hitler,

00:45:22.740 every name in the book.

00:45:24.200 At the same time,

00:45:25.800 I did not think

00:45:26.920 that there was

00:45:27.400 any kind of collusion

00:45:28.380 with Russia

00:45:29.040 or any kind of

00:45:30.680 something wrong

00:45:31.260 with that phone call.

00:45:32.120 Maybe he's a jerk

00:45:32.920 but I certainly don't think

00:45:33.980 he should be impeached

00:45:34.840 or moved from office.

00:45:36.140 All my constituents

00:45:37.160 have been hearing

00:45:38.560 for months

00:45:39.300 from the televangelists

00:45:40.960 of the left,

00:45:41.900 Don Lemon,

00:45:42.860 Rachel Maddow,

00:45:43.820 Trump Russia,

00:45:44.460 Trump Russia,

00:45:45.020 Trump Russia.

00:45:45.780 How could I,

00:45:47.000 as a democratic congressman,

00:45:48.860 go back to my constituents

00:45:50.140 and say,

00:45:50.740 guys,

00:45:51.120 I agree with you,

00:45:52.220 this guy's the worst

00:45:53.180 president in history

00:45:54.120 and he's a despicable

00:45:55.700 human being

00:45:56.440 but you don't impeach

00:45:57.940 someone over this,

00:45:58.660 this is,

00:45:59.120 you know,

00:45:59.740 ratcheting up

00:46:00.340 and nonsensical.

00:46:01.460 As a congressperson,

00:46:03.100 I would not be

00:46:03.920 in the position

00:46:04.440 to make that claim

00:46:05.600 and I think

00:46:06.280 that is a good

00:46:06.860 demonstration

00:46:07.440 of who is in charge

00:46:09.080 of whom.

00:46:09.540 There's a clip online

00:46:10.520 I'm sure people can find

00:46:11.840 where Don Lemon

00:46:13.060 from CNN

00:46:13.660 had John Kasich on,

00:46:15.380 former,

00:46:15.960 I think,

00:46:16.920 House Budget

00:46:17.620 Committee Chairman,

00:46:19.820 Governor of Ohio.

00:46:21.500 He was a major

00:46:22.160 presidential contender

00:46:23.080 in 2016

00:46:23.640 and he's yelling

00:46:24.940 at him,

00:46:25.900 John,

00:46:26.320 John,

00:46:26.680 John,

00:46:27.080 and you're sitting there

00:46:28.240 and it's like

00:46:28.560 it's very clear

00:46:29.420 who regards themselves

00:46:30.580 as the authority

00:46:31.500 and who regards them,

00:46:32.980 who is regarded

00:46:33.600 as the subject

00:46:34.460 in that relationship.

00:46:35.280 So,

00:46:37.420 okay,

00:46:37.740 so what if I said

00:46:38.640 maybe we should

00:46:40.080 just stop caring

00:46:40.840 about that too

00:46:41.660 because the technological

00:46:43.240 playing field

00:46:44.320 for communication

00:46:45.000 has been leveled

00:46:45.960 so drastically

00:46:47.000 that the New York Times

00:46:48.980 and the legacy media types

00:46:50.260 are basically dead

00:46:51.240 in the water

00:46:51.740 and that's just going

00:46:52.420 to play out

00:46:53.020 like inevitably

00:46:54.260 over the next

00:46:54.900 three or four years

00:46:55.680 and I was,

00:46:56.880 let me give you

00:46:57.500 just a quick example.

00:46:59.060 Can I just say one sentence?

00:47:00.080 Yes, please do.

00:47:00.400 If they were dead

00:47:01.440 in the water,

00:47:01.960 the lockdowns

00:47:02.520 couldn't have happened.

00:47:08.780 I don't think

00:47:09.920 they're dead

00:47:10.280 in the water now

00:47:11.140 but I think

00:47:12.180 the writing's

00:47:12.680 on the wall.

00:47:13.640 I agree.

00:47:14.580 That's why

00:47:15.140 I'm going to write

00:47:16.180 a book called

00:47:16.540 The White Pill

00:47:17.000 because I'm so optimistic.

00:47:18.040 I think they're

00:47:18.760 on borrowed time.

00:47:20.220 Completely agree.

00:47:20.920 Okay, so then

00:47:21.100 we can also talk

00:47:21.860 about what happens next

00:47:23.000 and we can talk

00:47:23.780 about the difference

00:47:24.440 between podcasts

00:47:25.280 and legacy media too

00:47:26.440 which I think

00:47:27.300 I'm trying to think

00:47:28.180 through right now

00:47:28.920 because I think

00:47:30.480 the YouTube podcast

00:47:32.200 long form structure

00:47:35.120 is revolutionary

00:47:36.580 in all sorts of ways

00:47:37.700 that we are just

00:47:38.660 starting to understand.

00:47:45.240 I was talking

00:47:46.100 to Russell Brand

00:47:46.720 a week ago

00:47:47.300 and he talked

00:47:48.120 about voiceless people

00:47:49.300 and how we're

00:47:50.260 increasingly becoming

00:47:51.160 voiceless

00:47:51.560 and I thought

00:47:52.580 well wait a second

00:47:53.820 that's true

00:47:54.440 in one sense

00:47:55.080 perhaps

00:47:55.520 but it's very untrue

00:47:57.740 in another sense

00:47:58.420 that might be

00:47:58.880 more important

00:47:59.380 because now

00:47:59.960 everyone's a TV station

00:48:01.240 if they want to be

00:48:01.940 and everyone's

00:48:02.420 a radio station

00:48:03.100 if they want to be

00:48:03.740 and everyone's

00:48:04.220 a publishing house

00:48:04.840 if they want to be

00:48:05.540 it's right there

00:48:06.300 at their fingertips

00:48:07.200 and there's no

00:48:08.480 apart from impediments

00:48:10.200 that get thrown up

00:48:11.040 now and then

00:48:11.520 like YouTube

00:48:12.120 banning people

00:48:12.940 and so on

00:48:13.500 it's

00:48:14.160 if you want

00:48:15.180 to have a voice

00:48:15.820 all you have to do

00:48:16.420 is buy a $100 microphone

00:48:18.200 and use your laptop

00:48:19.140 and bang

00:48:19.820 you know

00:48:20.100 you have whatever audience

00:48:22.280 you can draw in

00:48:23.440 and so

00:48:24.700 and that

00:48:25.520 that is

00:48:26.760 playing itself out

00:48:27.880 in our culture

00:48:28.440 extraordinarily rapidly

00:48:29.560 and so

00:48:30.000 maybe

00:48:30.580 maybe that's

00:48:31.560 just like

00:48:32.420 the 4chan discussion

00:48:33.800 that's drawn

00:48:34.780 from your book

00:48:35.460 The New Right

00:48:36.100 the culture's moved

00:48:37.060 past that

00:48:37.660 that's already history

00:48:38.640 it might be the case

00:48:40.140 that the

00:48:40.660 the continued dominance

00:48:42.480 of the main narrative

00:48:43.780 by the legacy media types

00:48:45.500 that's already

00:48:46.140 done

00:48:47.140 we're just

00:48:47.660 mopping up the ashes

00:48:49.100 that's

00:48:50.780 that's exactly

00:48:51.800 my perspective

00:48:52.720 and this is why

00:48:53.880 it's often so frustrating

00:48:55.100 with me on social media

00:48:56.460 because I think

00:48:57.540 it's inevitable

00:48:58.080 I don't see how

00:48:59.780 if my

00:49:00.400 if I'm the New York Times

00:49:01.520 or if I'm

00:49:01.920 I ask myself this question

00:49:03.340 fairly often

00:49:04.380 I said

00:49:04.800 if I'm CNN

00:49:05.880 what could I do

00:49:07.860 to regain the trust

00:49:09.520 of this young population

00:49:10.580 like what steps

00:49:11.420 would I take

00:49:12.000 and they're really

00:49:13.700 in a bad

00:49:14.460 it's

00:49:14.760 it's like Marlboro

00:49:15.520 like one of my quotes

00:49:16.600 is I said

00:49:17.140 the battle is won

00:49:17.900 when the average American

00:49:19.220 regards a corporate journalist

00:49:20.460 exactly as they regard

00:49:21.460 a tobacco executive

00:49:22.280 you are never going to have

00:49:24.740 the guy who runs Marlboro

00:49:26.280 be someone that you trust

00:49:28.380 and think is like

00:49:30.020 an unwitting

00:49:30.640 an unmitigated good person

00:49:32.300 you understand his job

00:49:33.780 you might say

00:49:34.440 look

00:49:34.760 these have to be legal

00:49:35.880 it's a horrible habit

00:49:37.440 and so on and so forth

00:49:38.900 and I get how he's getting

00:49:40.280 a paycheck

00:49:40.720 and I get how it could be used

00:49:42.040 in moderation

00:49:42.600 but regardless

00:49:43.920 this is

00:49:44.820 there's better ways

00:49:46.080 to improve humanity

00:49:47.280 than selling tobacco

00:49:48.600 well I look at

00:49:49.720 the BBC for example

00:49:51.060 tried to

00:49:52.800 to formulate a channel

00:49:54.880 for young people

00:49:55.660 and they did exactly

00:49:57.200 what you'd expect

00:49:57.980 appeal to progressive causes

00:49:59.840 and

00:50:00.180 yeah

00:50:00.880 the truth is

00:50:01.480 that didn't work at all

00:50:02.700 and why didn't it work

00:50:04.060 it's because

00:50:04.520 for young people

00:50:05.740 broadcast TV

00:50:07.300 is so dead

00:50:07.960 that they don't even

00:50:08.600 notice the corpse

00:50:09.600 yeah

00:50:10.660 like

00:50:11.040 right

00:50:12.440 it's just not there

00:50:14.520 it's just not an issue

00:50:15.820 and no wonder

00:50:16.520 because the technological

00:50:18.080 advantage of

00:50:19.220 on-demand video

00:50:21.220 both production

00:50:22.100 and consumption

00:50:22.760 is so

00:50:23.300 the advantage

00:50:24.540 of that

00:50:25.860 is so great

00:50:27.100 that those old forms

00:50:28.360 are just

00:50:28.820 they're terminally dead

00:50:30.400 and so

00:50:31.040 when I go

00:50:31.840 and have an interview

00:50:33.160 with a TV person

00:50:34.480 you know

00:50:35.260 it feels like I'm going back

00:50:36.380 into the 70s

00:50:37.180 and I'm not doing them anymore

00:50:38.480 I'm

00:50:38.840 and I can get into that

00:50:40.760 in a little while

00:50:41.680 but

00:50:41.860 what happens is

00:50:43.740 you know

00:50:44.400 the person

00:50:45.220 that you're talking to

00:50:46.760 isn't a person

00:50:47.500 and whatever it is

00:50:48.360 that you're having

00:50:48.980 isn't a conversation

00:50:50.020 we're having a conversation

00:50:51.800 when we're doing this right

00:50:53.360 you know

00:50:54.140 I'm sure we bring our flaws

00:50:55.420 to this

00:50:55.960 and our

00:50:56.240 and our arbitrary preconceptions

00:50:58.220 and our biases

00:50:58.900 and all that

00:50:59.420 but

00:50:59.600 my sense is that

00:51:01.060 when a podcast

00:51:01.720 goes well

00:51:02.720 I can tell

00:51:03.960 because I'm interested

00:51:04.820 in the conversation

00:51:05.760 and

00:51:07.180 the reason I'm interested

00:51:08.400 in the conversation

00:51:09.300 isn't because

00:51:10.420 I've got some viewpoints

00:51:11.900 that I'm hammering forward

00:51:13.180 that you have to attend to

00:51:14.500 but that I've got some ideas

00:51:15.760 that I can throw at you

00:51:16.840 and then I can see

00:51:18.080 what you do with the ideas

00:51:19.360 and take them apart

00:51:20.280 and add what you can to them

00:51:21.780 and then I can have different ideas

00:51:23.840 and

00:51:24.100 and

00:51:24.940 and

00:51:25.400 we can do that collaboratively

00:51:27.180 over the course of the dialogue

00:51:28.540 and we can include

00:51:29.680 all the people

00:51:30.560 that are watching this

00:51:31.600 in the process

00:51:32.240 and

00:51:32.560 that's like

00:51:33.560 it's like

00:51:34.300 this long form

00:51:35.460 allows for

00:51:36.120 the truth

00:51:37.380 being something like

00:51:38.440 an investigation

00:51:39.220 into the truth

00:51:40.580 instead of

00:51:41.400 the truth

00:51:42.480 and

00:51:43.300 right

00:51:43.520 it's

00:51:44.160 well we don't want to

00:51:45.220 underestimate

00:51:45.620 how much of that

00:51:46.460 is purely a consequence

00:51:47.600 of the technological revolution

00:51:49.280 because now there's time

00:51:51.040 right

00:51:51.320 we can make mistakes

00:51:52.640 and

00:51:52.920 and

00:51:53.540 and

00:51:54.220 and

00:51:54.620 and it doesn't matter

00:51:55.440 because the bandwidth

00:51:56.240 is unlimited

00:51:57.020 yeah

00:51:58.060 if I'm a roulette player

00:51:59.300 and I mentioned this

00:52:00.840 in the book as well

00:52:01.440 all my money is on

00:52:02.600 technology being what saves us

00:52:03.960 I do not

00:52:04.800 I think politics

00:52:05.700 literally only causes problems

00:52:07.460 and it's not a place

00:52:08.480 for any kind of solution

00:52:09.400 you cannot look to

00:52:10.180 Washington for solutions

00:52:11.160 what's funny is

00:52:13.880 when you listen to

00:52:14.620 corporate media

00:52:15.220 a lot of times

00:52:16.300 they will acknowledge

00:52:16.960 something's a problem

00:52:17.860 but then when that problem

00:52:18.880 is solved

00:52:19.380 exterior to it

00:52:20.480 they start to panic

00:52:21.780 we have heard

00:52:22.960 you and I

00:52:23.560 are both old enough

00:52:24.140 to remember

00:52:24.560 that there was a lot

00:52:25.640 of hand-wringing

00:52:26.460 correctly

00:52:27.120 that we live in

00:52:28.440 a soundbite culture

00:52:29.500 that it's not reasonable

00:52:31.160 that a politician

00:52:32.460 who might have

00:52:33.120 a new innovative way

00:52:34.260 to save

00:52:34.680 solve for poverty

00:52:35.660 to solve for the environment

00:52:37.120 to solve for

00:52:37.880 out of wedlock births

00:52:39.700 they have some program

00:52:40.900 but they have to

00:52:41.520 wrap it up in 10 seconds

00:52:42.840 it's very hard

00:52:43.980 to make that point

00:52:44.760 and as a result

00:52:45.380 this rewards glib people

00:52:46.740 or people who have

00:52:47.880 good one-liners

00:52:48.780 but someone who is

00:52:49.940 inarticulate

00:52:50.660 who has great ideas

00:52:51.780 that person is going

00:52:52.780 to be dead in the water

00:52:53.640 and that's going to

00:52:54.720 create results

00:52:55.380 that we not necessarily like

00:52:56.720 so then people are like

00:52:57.720 you know what

00:52:58.040 this is true

00:52:58.600 like you have people

00:52:59.640 talking past each other

00:53:00.760 the Republican versus Democrat

00:53:02.440 you know broadly

00:53:03.480 what they're going to say

00:53:04.600 it's fun when they

00:53:05.660 get a zinger in

00:53:06.500 but I'm not going

00:53:07.800 to have the needle moved

00:53:08.860 I'm rooting for my team

00:53:10.260 and it's kind of

00:53:10.920 a sports phenomenon

00:53:11.740 podcasts come along

00:53:13.460 we're going to have

00:53:14.340 a long conversation

00:53:15.680 where both of us

00:53:17.060 are listening to each other

00:53:18.220 I might disagree with you

00:53:20.000 I don't have

00:53:20.960 a political party

00:53:22.120 behind me

00:53:22.640 neither do I

00:53:23.440 hopefully you'll disagree

00:53:24.700 with me

00:53:25.260 hopefully

00:53:25.900 that you'll do it

00:53:27.100 not only will you disagree

00:53:28.320 but more importantly

00:53:29.700 that you'll do it

00:53:30.280 in an interesting way

00:53:31.280 that's interesting

00:53:31.940 also to me

00:53:32.660 because if you disagree

00:53:34.260 with me

00:53:34.780 there is some possibility

00:53:36.320 that you know

00:53:37.000 something I don't

00:53:38.500 and if you disagree

00:53:39.380 I could learn something

00:53:40.520 from you

00:53:40.940 in principle

00:53:41.620 the smartest person

00:53:42.320 the smartest person

00:53:43.500 is ignorant

00:53:43.900 of 99.99% of knowledge

00:53:45.760 I mean this is the mistake

00:53:47.740 that these kind of

00:53:48.520 over-educated people think

00:53:49.700 they think just because

00:53:50.320 I'm smart

00:53:50.780 I know everything

00:53:51.360 you're still going to be

00:53:52.420 profoundly ignorant

00:53:53.200 you're just going to be

00:53:53.740 knowledgeable about

00:53:54.300 certain things

00:53:54.740 very specifically

00:53:55.360 but getting back to

00:53:56.320 the point I was saying

00:53:57.260 earlier

00:53:57.560 now that we have

00:53:58.560 these long conversations

00:53:59.780 and people can really

00:54:00.680 delve into ideas

00:54:01.660 and people listening

00:54:02.920 to us might think

00:54:03.520 we're both full of crap

00:54:04.420 but now they're at least

00:54:05.420 challenging their own views

00:54:06.460 and being like

00:54:06.900 why do I disagree

00:54:07.900 with both of them

00:54:08.620 you don't have that space

00:54:10.320 on CNN

00:54:11.120 by nature of its organization

00:54:12.800 and now what CNN

00:54:14.240 and other outlets

00:54:15.220 had correctly posited

00:54:16.400 as a problem

00:54:17.060 has been resolved

00:54:18.360 but it's been resolved

00:54:19.500 their expense

00:54:20.200 so now the hue and cry

00:54:21.680 is there's misinformation

00:54:22.980 people are being

00:54:24.420 told dangerous ideas

00:54:26.820 yeah it's dangerous

00:54:27.840 to your huge enemy

00:54:28.620 it's dangerous

00:54:30.200 to your prominence

00:54:31.580 CNN

00:54:32.680 Brian Stelter

00:54:33.540 had a whole segment

00:54:34.420 I don't think he named

00:54:35.260 Tim Pool by name

00:54:36.260 by saying

00:54:37.060 how is it

00:54:37.800 that these YouTube shows

00:54:39.400 news shows

00:54:40.260 have orders of magnitude

00:54:41.620 bigger than us

00:54:42.440 what do we do about this

00:54:43.640 it's like

00:54:44.080 this is literally

00:54:45.180 every market

00:54:46.020 like I'm a publisher

00:54:47.540 or I make apples

00:54:48.660 someone comes along

00:54:50.000 their apples

00:54:50.520 or people like

00:54:51.360 those apples better

00:54:52.180 you know

00:54:52.840 you don't call in the state

00:54:54.180 you don't regard

00:54:54.780 this is some kind of

00:54:55.800 you know

00:54:56.660 abomination against

00:54:57.800 the natural order

00:54:58.700 of things

00:54:59.180 you're like

00:54:59.820 okay crap

00:55:00.540 what are they

00:55:01.640 what nerve

00:55:02.460 is Tim striking

00:55:03.520 that I can learn from

00:55:04.920 but they're never

00:55:06.020 interested in that

00:55:06.700 because they're not

00:55:07.700 interested in learning

00:55:08.580 they're interested

00:55:09.240 in teaching

00:55:09.860 or more specifically

00:55:10.700 training their audiences

00:55:11.960 what to think

00:55:13.080 and believe

00:55:13.540 and you see this

00:55:14.380 on social media

00:55:15.120 I made this joke

00:55:15.920 over the weekend

00:55:16.500 in the same way

00:55:17.840 that Christians

00:55:18.400 regard the Trinity

00:55:19.140 as one God

00:55:19.820 and three person

00:55:20.520 you have these

00:55:21.640 entire populations

00:55:22.660 which is one mind

00:55:24.820 in many many persons

00:55:26.240 because the people

00:55:27.460 will watch

00:55:27.900 John Oliver

00:55:28.600 or they'll watch

00:55:29.580 you know

00:55:30.000 some other show

00:55:31.080 on the right

00:55:31.540 and the next day

00:55:32.640 not only will they

00:55:33.520 be repeating

00:55:34.100 these views

00:55:34.940 but they're repeating

00:55:36.200 them verbatim

00:55:37.600 and that is when

00:55:38.760 you realize

00:55:39.220 oh

00:55:39.660 there's no mind

00:55:40.880 there

00:55:41.220 this

00:55:41.520 we're trained

00:55:42.480 since we're kids

00:55:43.320 correctly

00:55:43.780 that it's important

00:55:44.920 for us to be

00:55:45.720 informed on current

00:55:46.660 events

00:55:47.140 so what these

00:55:48.240 shows do

00:55:49.340 very perniciously

00:55:51.160 is they will

00:55:52.000 bring up an issue

00:55:52.980 that the person

00:55:54.060 hadn't heard about

00:55:54.600 before

00:55:54.900 which is important

00:55:55.560 for us to understand

00:55:56.380 sure

00:55:56.720 but immediately

00:55:57.800 will train them

00:55:59.500 on how to look

00:56:00.700 at this issue

00:56:01.280 and what their

00:56:01.880 correct emotional

00:56:02.820 response is

00:56:03.780 and people

00:56:04.900 are hungry for that

00:56:06.100 because they want

00:56:06.860 to present themselves

00:56:07.880 as informed

00:56:08.780 but they don't have

00:56:09.840 the time

00:56:10.280 or the capacity

00:56:11.120 to undertake

00:56:13.280 the critical

00:56:13.880 or independent

00:56:14.520 thought to do that

00:56:15.340 so it comes

00:56:16.180 pre-packaged for them

00:56:17.240 so it's kind of

00:56:18.020 the TV dinner

00:56:18.680 of the mind

00:56:19.700 that's a good metaphor

00:56:21.040 but the network

00:56:23.020 format

00:56:23.960 all of it

00:56:25.560 the whole

00:56:26.080 technological apparatus

00:56:27.240 including the

00:56:27.940 corporate funding

00:56:28.620 as a consequence

00:56:29.600 of the expensive

00:56:30.380 bandwidth

00:56:30.820 absolutely demands

00:56:32.840 that

00:56:33.280 you know

00:56:33.900 like I never

00:56:34.620 feel more like

00:56:35.660 content

00:56:36.340 than when I go

00:56:37.600 to a TV station

00:56:38.800 and everyone

00:56:40.220 in there

00:56:40.760 is in some sense

00:56:42.640 held hostage

00:56:43.480 to the limitations

00:56:44.540 and advantages

00:56:45.640 of that particular

00:56:46.480 technology

00:56:47.160 and you know

00:56:48.300 well as Marshall

00:56:49.760 McLuhan said

00:56:50.440 the medium

00:56:50.900 is the message

00:56:51.580 you know

00:56:52.040 and a lot

00:56:52.780 of what

00:56:53.220 a lot of

00:56:54.040 what looks

00:56:54.500 like even

00:56:55.500 corporate think

00:56:56.480 or corporate

00:56:57.080 malfeasance

00:56:57.820 is merely

00:56:58.620 a consequence

00:56:59.300 of that

00:56:59.880 strange

00:57:00.580 technological

00:57:01.220 limitation

00:57:01.900 the

00:57:02.540 networks

00:57:04.440 have to assume

00:57:05.260 that everybody

00:57:05.860 watching

00:57:06.360 has no memory

00:57:07.200 and no education

00:57:08.080 and no attention

00:57:08.860 span

00:57:09.280 because the

00:57:10.200 bandwidth

00:57:10.540 requirements

00:57:11.240 demand that

00:57:12.520 and now

00:57:12.860 that's all gone

00:57:13.680 so let me ask

00:57:14.660 you about this

00:57:15.280 so now all of a sudden

00:57:16.220 the network

00:57:17.740 everyone's a TV

00:57:18.780 station

00:57:19.300 okay so now

00:57:20.400 one thing

00:57:21.820 that

00:57:22.080 the

00:57:24.060 dominance

00:57:25.040 let's say

00:57:25.520 of the three

00:57:26.020 major TV stations

00:57:27.260 from say

00:57:28.040 1950

00:57:28.860 or thereabouts

00:57:30.040 till 1995

00:57:32.000 maybe something

00:57:33.160 like that

00:57:33.640 there was

00:57:35.180 the imposition

00:57:36.060 of something

00:57:36.860 like a coherent

00:57:37.760 national narrative

00:57:41.000 and now

00:57:41.800 you can object

00:57:42.500 to that

00:57:42.840 and you should

00:57:43.420 because in some

00:57:44.320 sense it's imposed

00:57:45.260 but

00:57:45.560 it's a collaborative

00:57:48.080 imposition

00:57:48.840 between these

00:57:49.560 technologically

00:57:50.180 powerful companies

00:57:51.120 and the government

00:57:51.800 the journalists

00:57:52.380 couldn't be too corrupt

00:57:54.660 if they chased

00:57:55.440 after the politicians

00:57:56.300 because then they

00:57:56.880 wouldn't get access

00:57:57.640 and the politicians

00:57:58.780 couldn't be too corrupt

00:57:59.900 because the media

00:58:00.700 would disrobe them

00:58:02.480 but there was

00:58:04.040 this sense of unity

00:58:05.240 and now you get

00:58:06.080 this immense

00:58:07.020 multiplicity

00:58:08.120 and so

00:58:09.000 I mean you're more

00:58:10.240 anarchically oriented

00:58:11.320 I would say

00:58:11.840 temperamentally

00:58:12.540 than I am

00:58:13.160 but I am an anarchist

00:58:14.440 yes

00:58:14.660 right

00:58:15.000 but you know

00:58:17.680 there is

00:58:18.580 there is a danger

00:58:19.980 in fragmentation

00:58:21.040 that's the

00:58:22.040 I mean that's diversity

00:58:23.400 is fragmentation

00:58:24.220 but you know

00:58:26.000 enough fragmentation

00:58:27.060 you get nothing

00:58:28.180 but endless conflict

00:58:29.400 as people try to work out

00:58:31.040 how they're going

00:58:32.160 to cooperate

00:58:32.780 so

00:58:33.680 I don't think

00:58:35.780 that's necessarily true

00:58:36.620 because I don't think

00:58:37.540 it's I think you're

00:58:38.220 taking it as a given

00:58:39.020 that cooperation

00:58:39.720 is desirable

00:58:40.560 or that this unity

00:58:42.240 of some kind

00:58:42.960 is desirable

00:58:43.500 I think what's coming up

00:58:44.940 in certain circles

00:58:45.860 which I was the first one

00:58:47.160 to posit this in 2015

00:58:48.740 is in America

00:58:49.960 at least the idea

00:58:50.460 of a national divorce

00:58:51.400 recognizing that

00:58:53.260 we've had at least

00:58:53.880 two cultures

00:58:54.520 since the very beginning

00:58:55.480 they're being held together

00:58:56.920 through you know

00:58:57.760 often nefarious means

00:58:59.080 and if one group

00:59:00.460 regards Donald Trump

00:59:01.560 as literally Hitler

00:59:02.660 and an authoritarian

00:59:03.760 strong man

00:59:04.560 which you can very easily

00:59:05.680 make the case for that

00:59:06.560 and the other group

00:59:07.740 regards you know

00:59:08.720 Joe Biden is basically

00:59:09.960 someone sitting

00:59:10.620 in his own urine

00:59:11.260 behind the resolute desk

00:59:12.560 there's no reason

00:59:13.820 other than some kind

00:59:14.820 of sense of inertia

00:59:15.520 for these two

00:59:16.860 two or more groups

00:59:19.200 to be under the same polity

00:59:20.820 or both

00:59:21.900 there's no reason

00:59:22.900 for you to have

00:59:23.400 the president

00:59:23.860 you don't want

00:59:24.580 and increasingly

00:59:25.820 as conversation becomes

00:59:27.400 and discourse collapses

00:59:28.680 because I think

00:59:30.060 social media

00:59:30.560 does tend to drive

00:59:31.560 our ideologies

00:59:32.380 to their logical conclusions

00:59:33.560 which leads to extremism

00:59:34.860 which could be both

00:59:35.500 a good thing

00:59:35.920 or a bad thing

00:59:36.520 it is going to be

00:59:37.840 harder and harder

00:59:38.560 to the point

00:59:39.380 where it's impossible

00:59:40.160 to you know

00:59:41.520 have this sort of conversation

00:59:43.200 and we're seeing it

00:59:43.760 also in Europe

00:59:44.360 okay

00:59:45.200 but there are reasons

00:59:47.120 for the necessity

00:59:48.840 of the unity

00:59:49.500 I mean

00:59:49.900 so you talk about

00:59:52.220 Jonathan Haidt

00:59:53.360 in your book

00:59:54.800 in the New Right

00:59:55.580 and there's a lot

00:59:56.760 of psychological investigators

00:59:59.040 myself included

01:00:00.000 when I was doing research

01:00:01.000 who were looking

01:00:01.500 into the temperamental

01:00:02.420 basis of political affiliation

01:00:04.140 right

01:00:04.560 and so you know

01:00:06.000 roughly speaking

01:00:06.960 on the left end

01:00:07.840 of things

01:00:08.200 you get the high

01:00:08.920 open people

01:00:09.600 who are creative

01:00:10.580 in their thinking

01:00:11.240 and who are temperamentally

01:00:14.120 in favor of the free flow

01:00:15.320 of information

01:00:16.060 and tend to be lower

01:00:18.060 in conscientiousness

01:00:19.160 particularly orderliness

01:00:20.320 and then you have

01:00:21.100 people who ally

01:00:22.560 on the other side

01:00:23.240 of that

01:00:23.500 who are higher

01:00:23.920 in orderliness

01:00:24.520 and lower in openness

01:00:25.460 and I tried to figure out

01:00:27.140 why that was

01:00:28.060 the fundamental

01:00:28.740 political axis

01:00:29.720 because there's

01:00:31.000 five temperaments

01:00:31.980 yes

01:00:32.760 so why only those two

01:00:34.320 as the major determinants

01:00:35.540 of political affiliation

01:00:37.180 and what it boiled down

01:00:38.840 to me

01:00:39.420 for me

01:00:40.120 is that

01:00:40.720 and I think this

01:00:41.780 this isn't my discovery

01:00:43.160 precisely

01:00:43.680 but I think it's

01:00:44.440 the most significant

01:00:45.500 discovery in political

01:00:46.760 psychology

01:00:47.360 in the last 50 years

01:00:48.540 is that

01:00:48.980 it's probably

01:00:50.160 that because borders

01:00:52.160 are the fundamental

01:00:53.460 political issue

01:00:54.360 and I don't just mean

01:00:55.500 borders between countries

01:00:56.840 I mean borders

01:00:57.560 between concepts

01:00:58.520 I mean borders

01:00:59.320 between categories

01:01:00.400 countries, states, towns, people

01:01:03.040 the conservative types

01:01:04.620 think

01:01:04.980 you have to hold

01:01:06.040 things together

01:01:06.840 yep

01:01:07.580 because if they dissolve

01:01:09.600 they die

01:01:10.160 and the liberal types

01:01:11.280 think well wait a second

01:01:12.360 you bloody well need

01:01:13.400 to maximize information flow

01:01:14.960 and the truth of the matter

01:01:16.360 is

01:01:16.660 sometimes one of those

01:01:18.020 perspectives is right

01:01:19.700 for that situation

01:01:20.600 and sometimes the other

01:01:21.600 and it's

01:01:21.980 I mean even with

01:01:23.300 look at the advantages

01:01:24.480 of free trade

01:01:25.380 and then the disadvantage

01:01:26.580 of

01:01:27.080 you know

01:01:27.960 a worldwide epidemic

01:01:29.240 that's a great example

01:01:30.860 it's like well

01:01:31.560 are open borders good

01:01:33.080 well they do facilitate

01:01:34.680 the transmission of disease

01:01:36.420 and it turns out

01:01:38.140 that

01:01:38.400 the probability

01:01:39.420 that infectious disease

01:01:40.600 will be transmitted

01:01:41.440 in a given political locale

01:01:43.000 is actually a very good

01:01:44.020 determinant of political belief

01:01:45.680 within that locale

01:01:46.720 so wherever there's

01:01:48.020 more infectious disease

01:01:49.040 people are much more

01:01:50.280 conservative

01:01:50.840 and it's a huge effect

01:01:52.480 so something very fundamental

01:01:54.420 is going on

01:01:55.280 at the bottom

01:01:55.680 of our political thinking

01:01:56.600 but having said all that

01:01:58.040 it's

01:01:58.880 that also means

01:02:00.080 you know

01:02:00.900 that both of those types

01:02:02.180 are necessary

01:02:02.880 because sometimes

01:02:03.960 one has the right solution

01:02:05.300 and sometimes the other

01:02:06.140 but even more importantly

01:02:07.560 is that

01:02:08.020 there's no way

01:02:10.280 of getting rid of that

01:02:11.680 dichotomy

01:02:12.480 if you have groups

01:02:14.320 of human beings

01:02:15.240 and so if we can't

01:02:16.820 if we can't

01:02:18.260 have a unity emerge

01:02:19.680 that allows both

01:02:20.600 those types of people

01:02:21.560 to coexist

01:02:22.080 then what we're going to have

01:02:23.600 as a consequence

01:02:24.560 is

01:02:24.940 conflict

01:02:26.060 like

01:02:26.640 and who knows

01:02:27.860 how severe

01:02:28.320 that can become

01:02:29.080 so we have

01:02:29.960 we don't have a

01:02:30.620 we have a choice

01:02:31.620 it's like

01:02:32.120 unity

01:02:33.040 however fragile

01:02:34.120 that might be

01:02:34.880 or the degeneration

01:02:35.880 into something

01:02:36.660 like

01:02:37.140 like

01:02:37.400 conflict

01:02:38.420 and

01:02:38.820 that's not preferable

01:02:40.580 to cooperation

01:02:41.280 all things considered

01:02:42.640 oh I disagree

01:02:44.140 I think it is comparable

01:02:45.300 and I don't think

01:02:45.920 the alternatives

01:02:46.380 excuse me

01:02:46.960 I don't think

01:02:47.300 unity means cooperation

01:02:49.080 I think unity means oppression

01:02:50.400 I think

01:02:51.280 sometimes you

01:02:52.040 look

01:02:52.380 look

01:02:52.820 I don't disagree

01:02:54.700 with that

01:02:55.420 in some sense

01:02:56.200 I'm saying all the time

01:02:57.060 unity through politics

01:02:59.300 always means oppression

01:03:00.480 because the political system

01:03:01.940 can only be used

01:03:03.080 to silence people

01:03:04.040 and force them

01:03:04.660 to do what they otherwise

01:03:05.540 would not want to do

01:03:06.340 otherwise they would do it

01:03:07.400 on a voluntary basis

01:03:08.240 so any of these calls

01:03:09.640 of unity

01:03:10.100 in my view

01:03:10.940 are always

01:03:12.480 slight of hand

01:03:13.600 to marginalize

01:03:15.320 or oppress

01:03:16.100 a certain population

01:03:17.300 now sometimes

01:03:18.120 that's necessary

01:03:18.860 classic post-modernism

01:03:20.380 that post-modernist

01:03:21.780 that's the fundamental claim

01:03:23.180 of the power theorist

01:03:24.220 the French power theorists

01:03:25.440 and there's some

01:03:26.800 that's not an insult

01:03:28.240 by the way

01:03:28.900 sure

01:03:29.200 but

01:03:30.340 but

01:03:30.960 look

01:03:32.360 if you take 10 kids

01:03:33.740 and you have them

01:03:34.300 play the same game

01:03:35.180 all the kids

01:03:36.260 get to play the game

01:03:37.100 but not all of them

01:03:37.900 get to play the game

01:03:38.660 they wanted to

01:03:39.320 at that moment

01:03:40.280 but at least

01:03:41.040 they all get to play a game

01:03:42.300 and so

01:03:43.200 there's cooperation there

01:03:44.900 and there's utility

01:03:45.680 in it

01:03:46.100 now you can say

01:03:47.180 well the

01:03:47.620 the tyranny of the game

01:03:48.900 has been imposed

01:03:49.720 and that's true

01:03:50.460 but both of those things

01:03:51.980 are true at the same time

01:03:53.240 and it doesn't seem reasonable

01:03:55.020 to equate

01:03:56.600 cooperation with tyranny

01:03:58.260 it's reasonable

01:03:59.260 to point out

01:03:59.940 that cooperation

01:04:00.760 could degenerate

01:04:01.700 into tyranny

01:04:02.340 I think you just

01:04:03.960 kind of

01:04:04.460 dropped the mask

01:04:06.140 a little bit

01:04:06.620 because you

01:04:07.340 in your example

01:04:08.160 posited these are children

01:04:09.540 so by its very nature

01:04:11.500 all these things

01:04:12.260 that you're talking about

01:04:13.200 in a positive sense

01:04:14.260 have to force some group

01:04:15.740 to be a second class citizen

01:04:16.940 or at least obedient

01:04:17.980 to some kind of elite

01:04:19.540 and this is something

01:04:20.800 that I think

01:04:21.500 is the benefits of this

01:04:23.300 at the very least

01:04:24.080 are enormously overblown

01:04:25.280 I think you can

01:04:26.600 freedom means

01:04:27.440 every kid can play

01:04:28.360 the game that they want

01:04:29.420 there might not be

01:04:30.840 enough

01:04:30.960 but not with other people

01:04:31.740 that's the problem

01:04:33.420 you know

01:04:33.940 I disagree

01:04:34.420 so and I use children

01:04:35.660 as an example

01:04:36.380 because I was concentrating

01:04:37.460 on games

01:04:38.200 and because

01:04:39.020 it's out of games

01:04:40.300 that the polity emerges

01:04:41.600 over the course

01:04:42.840 of its natural development

01:04:43.960 so it's not a rational

01:04:45.800 top-down imposition

01:04:46.960 all things considered

01:04:47.980 it's the emergence

01:04:49.700 of a game-like structure

01:04:50.840 that incorporates

01:04:51.520 more and more people

01:04:52.400 and see

01:04:53.120 if you take two-year-olds

01:04:55.420 two-year-olds

01:04:56.420 play their own game

01:04:57.560 and each of them

01:04:59.720 plays their own game

01:05:00.440 but by the time

01:05:01.120 they hit three or four

01:05:02.160 they have to be able

01:05:03.380 to integrate

01:05:04.000 the game they're playing

01:05:05.320 with what other children

01:05:07.160 want to play

01:05:08.600 so that they can play

01:05:09.640 games with other children

01:05:11.880 which they're unbelievably

01:05:13.240 motivated to do

01:05:14.320 and it means that

01:05:15.200 each of them

01:05:15.740 have to subordinate

01:05:16.700 their instincts

01:05:17.620 so to speak

01:05:18.300 for the moment

01:05:19.700 but hypothetically

01:05:20.960 they gain

01:05:21.680 as a consequence

01:05:22.380 of their mutual

01:05:23.880 subordination

01:05:24.600 to this higher-order game

01:05:25.920 I don't see it

01:05:27.300 as subordinate

01:05:28.160 so if my choices

01:05:29.440 are play this game

01:05:31.460 by myself

01:05:32.260 or play this game

01:05:33.520 I like second

01:05:34.340 with a lot of other people

01:05:36.100 I would value this

01:05:38.140 it's the

01:05:38.760 I'm playing a game

01:05:40.380 in order to have fun

01:05:41.280 so in that case

01:05:42.500 the first game

01:05:43.560 which is my most favorite game

01:05:45.340 if no one wants to play it with me

01:05:46.900 it's not going to be that fun

01:05:48.180 so it is rational

01:05:49.440 and not at any sense

01:05:50.840 of subordination

01:05:51.500 to choose my second

01:05:52.940 preferred game

01:05:53.740 because now I'm having fun

01:05:54.960 being able to play it

01:05:55.940 well let's

01:05:57.320 look

01:05:57.880 I would say that

01:05:58.640 what we're doing here

01:05:59.660 is a game

01:06:01.860 and I don't mean that

01:06:03.400 in any

01:06:03.820 you know

01:06:04.560 in any

01:06:05.060 what

01:06:06.000 negative sense

01:06:07.400 you're allowing

01:06:09.500 by participating

01:06:10.580 in this conversation

01:06:11.520 you're allowing

01:06:12.200 for the possibility

01:06:13.260 and the belief

01:06:14.520 I would say

01:06:15.020 that whatever

01:06:15.880 we're doing

01:06:16.480 collaboratively

01:06:17.420 is of more utility

01:06:18.420 at the moment

01:06:19.280 than whatever

01:06:19.780 you could be doing

01:06:20.640 individually

01:06:21.160 at the moment

01:06:21.800 because otherwise

01:06:22.340 you wouldn't be doing it

01:06:23.420 and I would say

01:06:25.100 that we are cooperating

01:06:27.100 we're also competing

01:06:28.040 and we also might be

01:06:29.220 tyrannizing each other

01:06:30.300 to some degree

01:06:31.180 but

01:06:31.820 there's something

01:06:33.040 in this mutual interaction

01:06:34.720 that we're about

01:06:36.020 that we're engaging

01:06:38.060 in voluntarily

01:06:38.840 that is cooperative

01:06:39.940 and that isn't being enforced

01:06:41.400 by some external agent

01:06:42.700 right

01:06:43.360 it's entirely cooperative

01:06:44.540 this is my whole point

01:06:45.740 this is why I'm an anarchist

01:06:46.860 because this is

01:06:47.920 when people are doing

01:06:49.040 things voluntarily

01:06:49.760 they are going to choose

01:06:50.800 the things that are

01:06:51.400 preferable to them

01:06:52.280 the problem

01:06:53.140 and when you have conflict

01:06:54.140 is when you have

01:06:55.120 a third actor

01:06:55.840 coming into our conversation

01:06:57.240 and being the state

01:06:59.200 and forcing both of us

01:07:01.200 to do something

01:07:01.820 we would not want to do

01:07:02.860 for their sake

01:07:03.640 and that

01:07:04.260 when you play that out

01:07:05.260 that game

01:07:05.840 on a national

01:07:06.560 international scale

01:07:07.540 that is the definition

01:07:08.800 of oppression

01:07:09.380 instead of you

01:07:10.560 and I having a podcast

01:07:11.640 why aren't we in the factory

01:07:12.660 making socks for poor people

01:07:14.020 that's of more utility

01:07:15.340 says the third party

01:07:16.780 who's not involved here

01:07:17.660 and that's the danger

01:07:19.140 in my view

01:07:19.640 and the legitimacy

01:07:20.780 of that kind of third party

01:07:21.920 it is

01:07:22.340 so

01:07:22.820 the developmental

01:07:24.580 I picked up

01:07:26.320 a reasonable number

01:07:27.400 of my ideas

01:07:28.000 about the relationship

01:07:29.240 between games

01:07:30.020 and morality

01:07:30.560 and higher order

01:07:31.240 social structures

01:07:32.080 from the developmental

01:07:33.380 psychologist

01:07:34.200 Jean Piaget

01:07:34.960 and he was interested

01:07:36.280 in the science

01:07:37.320 of ethics

01:07:37.820 essentially

01:07:38.260 and his goal

01:07:39.300 was the reunification

01:07:40.960 of science and religion

01:07:42.060 actually

01:07:42.740 although very few people

01:07:44.000 know that about Piaget

01:07:44.920 and he pointed out

01:07:46.280 quite clearly

01:07:46.980 that a cooperative game

01:07:49.660 would out-compete

01:07:50.660 a tyrannical game

01:07:51.820 over time

01:07:52.460 because the tyrannical game

01:07:54.300 had to waste resources

01:07:56.180 in enforcement

01:07:57.020 whereas a cooperative game

01:07:59.220 didn't

01:07:59.940 because people

01:08:00.600 were voluntarily

01:08:01.380 going to go along

01:08:02.620 with it

01:08:03.020 so then you say

01:08:05.040 well

01:08:05.340 it's

01:08:06.900 I think you can make

01:08:08.000 a perfectly credible case

01:08:09.180 that if you could choose

01:08:10.500 between two games

01:08:12.000 and one of them

01:08:12.800 involved force

01:08:13.920 and the other

01:08:14.500 didn't

01:08:15.300 and they have the same

01:08:16.620 end

01:08:17.320 let's say

01:08:17.960 that the cooperative game

01:08:19.560 is to be preferred

01:08:20.340 and it's also more sophisticated

01:08:21.680 but I would say as well

01:08:23.280 we actually don't know

01:08:24.160 how to pull that off

01:08:25.380 some of it's just

01:08:26.680 just lack of ability

01:08:28.120 well when you integrate

01:08:29.260 so many people

01:08:30.320 like you have 330 million people

01:08:32.280 in the United States

01:08:33.120 it's really hard

01:08:34.700 to organize a cooperative game

01:08:36.920 well that's the role

01:08:38.040 of the corporate press

01:08:38.800 the corporate press

01:08:39.960 puts forth the agenda

01:08:41.320 of the power class

01:08:42.300 and gets everyone

01:08:43.500 persuaded to do

01:08:44.680 that which they had

01:08:46.100 wanted to do

01:08:46.620 Mario Cuomo

01:08:47.300 whose book I got paid

01:08:48.380 sorry Andrew Cuomo

01:08:49.500 the governor of New York

01:08:50.260 whose book I got paid to read

01:08:51.820 he said explicitly

01:08:52.940 in his book

01:08:53.640 that if this wasn't done

01:08:55.220 through voluntary compliance

01:08:56.560 I wouldn't be able

01:08:57.400 to pull off half of this

01:08:58.680 and what is allowed

01:09:00.920 to happen

01:09:01.440 is you have

01:09:02.840 decentralized enforcement

01:09:04.280 of these rules

01:09:05.780 and we saw this

01:09:06.940 during the lockdowns

01:09:07.840 where every low status person

01:09:09.380 had an opportunity

01:09:10.560 to assert dominance

01:09:11.520 over somebody else

01:09:12.360 by going up to them

01:09:13.760 and yelling at them

01:09:14.960 that they're not wearing a mask

01:09:16.060 even though going up to them

01:09:17.060 ostensibly

01:09:17.580 is going to put your life

01:09:19.060 in danger

01:09:19.820 and just to

01:09:20.820 you made a very cogent point

01:09:22.520 about how persuasion

01:09:23.780 is a lot cheaper

01:09:24.740 than force

01:09:25.840 a lot of people

01:09:26.940 use all these

01:09:27.640 Orwellian 1984 comparisons

01:09:29.380 and I think the comparison

01:09:30.740 to contemporary terms

01:09:31.940 is much closer

01:09:32.920 to Brave New World

01:09:33.740 and it's through the use

01:09:35.180 of pleasure

01:09:35.800 and the carrot

01:09:36.580 because it's a lot cheaper

01:09:38.160 to tell people

01:09:39.100 persuade people

01:09:39.840 it's in their best interest

01:09:40.720 go along

01:09:41.780 you're going to give up

01:09:42.800 your freedom

01:09:43.180 but I'm going to give you safety

01:09:44.280 and they'll be champing

01:09:45.740 at the bit

01:09:46.220 to do that

01:09:46.700 H.L. Mencken

01:09:47.300 the great cynic

01:09:48.040 of the early 20th century

01:09:49.740 said that the average man

01:09:51.320 does not want to be free

01:09:52.260 he simply wants to be safe

01:09:53.620 and for those of us

01:09:54.860 who are fans of freedom

01:09:56.640 who regard liberty

01:09:57.620 as a high value

01:09:58.580 the issue is

01:10:00.220 how do you engage

01:10:01.380 in a polity

01:10:01.980 with people

01:10:03.040 who don't really

01:10:04.000 find liberty of use

01:10:05.120 and would rather have

01:10:06.060 every minute of their life

01:10:07.120 whether through

01:10:07.940 their corporate job

01:10:08.940 or what they watch on TV

01:10:10.220 or what they wear

01:10:11.160 pretty much decided for them

01:10:12.980 I mean

01:10:13.360 the speech

01:10:14.820 in The Devil Wears Prada

01:10:15.800 that Miranda Priestly makes

01:10:18.120 about how

01:10:19.080 you're wearing

01:10:19.700 that blue sweater

01:10:20.480 because the people

01:10:21.660 in this room

01:10:22.480 you know chose

01:10:23.360 the cerulean jacket

01:10:24.380 five years ago

01:10:25.120 then it went

01:10:25.600 to the fringe designers

01:10:26.620 then it became

01:10:27.220 in the mall

01:10:27.660 then you found

01:10:28.160 that on clearance

01:10:28.720 and you think

01:10:29.740 it has nothing

01:10:30.160 to do with you

01:10:30.780 but it was because

01:10:32.000 we had made

01:10:32.640 these decisions

01:10:33.220 and it percolated

01:10:34.000 down to you

01:10:34.660 and I think

01:10:35.440 that top-down approach

01:10:36.500 I mean Ed Bernays

01:10:37.580 talked about this

01:10:38.340 Walter Lippman

01:10:38.860 talked about this

01:10:39.600 in the books

01:10:40.320 Propaganda

01:10:41.120 and Public Opinion

01:10:41.900 this was something

01:10:43.020 that they figured out

01:10:44.360 a hundred years ago

01:10:45.740 specifically during

01:10:46.980 the Woodrow Wilson

01:10:47.680 administration

01:10:48.360 how do you get over

01:10:50.020 the complete

01:10:51.160 you know fascist

01:10:51.940 takeover of the United States

01:10:53.500 of course under wartime

01:10:54.800 premises

01:10:55.520 and get everyone

01:10:57.120 involved in something

01:10:58.300 that would have been

01:10:59.100 completely alien

01:11:00.320 to American thought

01:11:01.280 just five years prior

01:11:02.360 that we're going to

01:11:03.260 send all our kids

01:11:04.260 over to Europe

01:11:05.360 to fight a European war

01:11:06.820 this was a major

01:11:07.900 revolutionary shift

01:11:09.380 in how America

01:11:10.180 regarded its relationship

01:11:11.300 between the state

01:11:11.960 and the population

01:11:12.520 and between America

01:11:14.060 and the rest of the world

01:11:14.880 Woodrow Wilson

01:11:15.420 was the first president

01:11:16.340 to leave America

01:11:17.640 as president

01:11:18.400 FDR just went to Panama

01:11:19.680 but that was like

01:11:20.200 American territory

01:11:20.960 at the time

01:11:21.400 sorry Teddy Roosevelt

01:11:22.820 so this was

01:11:24.020 that's what

01:11:24.620 so we've been

01:11:25.160 they've been at this

01:11:25.880 for a hundred years

01:11:26.700 so they're playing

01:11:27.880 the long game

01:11:28.640 and now it's starting

01:11:29.720 to fall apart

01:11:30.380 thankfully

01:11:30.800 okay so I got

01:11:32.000 three things

01:11:32.700 I want to ask you

01:11:33.620 now

01:11:34.020 sure

01:11:34.400 I want to know

01:11:35.040 who they is

01:11:36.040 okay

01:11:37.880 so then

01:11:38.520 I want to know

01:11:39.380 in the Devil War Prada

01:11:41.600 were you on

01:11:43.100 Miranda Priestley's side

01:11:44.640 or on the side

01:11:45.760 of the

01:11:46.260 naive ingenue

01:11:47.860 who

01:11:48.180 you know

01:11:48.820 was hypothetically

01:11:49.640 tyrannized by her

01:11:50.800 and

01:11:51.580 now I can't remember

01:11:53.260 the third one

01:11:53.880 we'll stick with those two

01:11:55.240 for the time being

01:11:56.100 so who's the they

01:11:57.420 exactly

01:11:58.340 sure

01:11:59.160 so

01:11:59.540 because it's a shorthand

01:12:00.720 right

01:12:00.960 and it's a conspiratorial

01:12:02.260 shorthand

01:12:02.840 so it's worth

01:12:03.480 it's worth unpacking

01:12:04.920 sure

01:12:05.580 a conspiracy

01:12:06.160 is just an organization

01:12:07.280 that you don't approve of

01:12:08.500 the Constitutional Convention

01:12:09.680 was a conspiracy

01:12:10.540 the Founding Fathers

01:12:11.520 got together in Philadelphia

01:12:12.720 to reorganize

01:12:14.080 the Artists of Confederation

01:12:15.140 that was what

01:12:15.740 they had been their

01:12:16.240 assigned task

01:12:16.880 that they had sworn to

01:12:17.620 they get in there

01:12:18.760 lock the doors

01:12:19.900 they go

01:12:20.700 yeah we're starting over

01:12:21.600 right guys

01:12:22.020 they're like yeah yeah yeah

01:12:22.640 and they swore themselves

01:12:23.720 to secrecy

01:12:24.420 now we don't say

01:12:25.400 conspiracy

01:12:25.860 because we don't like

01:12:27.000 that term

01:12:27.600 but this was very much

01:12:28.680 a conspiracy

01:12:29.140 well okay

01:12:29.540 conspiracies usually

01:12:30.840 involve deception

01:12:31.920 and secretiveness too

01:12:33.060 so I

01:12:33.400 they swore themselves

01:12:34.700 to secrecy

01:12:35.260 in Philadelphia

01:12:35.700 and there's a

01:12:36.640 conspiratorial element

01:12:37.640 there for sure

01:12:38.280 but there's lots of

01:12:39.320 things that people do

01:12:40.240 behind the scenes

01:12:41.340 so to speak

01:12:41.860 that aren't necessarily

01:12:42.640 conspiratorial

01:12:43.460 because they do them

01:12:44.200 they're not hiding them

01:12:45.760 so but back to the they

01:12:47.920 you know

01:12:48.540 so basically

01:12:49.060 so the model is

01:12:50.380 you get the kids

01:12:51.400 at a very young age

01:12:52.700 and you put them

01:12:53.800 in government schools

01:12:54.660 they are taught

01:12:55.640 many things

01:12:56.540 that are nefarious

01:12:57.440 such as

01:12:58.060 that your self-esteem

01:12:59.180 should be a function

01:12:59.880 of this mediocre person

01:13:00.980 in front of the room

01:13:01.620 that everyone should

01:13:02.940 have the same work hours

01:13:04.200 that you're forced

01:13:05.400 to be in a relationship

01:13:06.520 with violent peers

01:13:08.600 that in no other situation

01:13:09.980 are you forced

01:13:10.960 to be locked

01:13:11.700 into a relationship

01:13:12.280 with them

01:13:12.660 with like bullies

01:13:13.260 or just people

01:13:13.700 who are you know

01:13:14.440 disruptive

01:13:14.960 but this

01:13:16.620 it starts

01:13:17.200 with the universities

01:13:17.900 and this was by design

01:13:19.700 the American

01:13:20.260 Economics Association

01:13:21.640 which was started

01:13:22.700 I think in late 1890s

01:13:24.360 by Richard Eli

01:13:24.980 who was Woodrow Wilson's

01:13:26.100 mentor

01:13:26.360 there

01:13:27.120 and they use

01:13:27.960 they always use

01:13:28.440 Orwellian language

01:13:29.300 I'm kind of

01:13:30.040 contradicting myself

01:13:30.740 but the idea is

01:13:31.740 we're training

01:13:32.540 the next generation

01:13:33.500 of elites

01:13:34.120 so basically

01:13:35.360 you have an entire

01:13:36.300 population

01:13:36.940 who go to these

01:13:38.100 best universities

01:13:38.980 who are taught

01:13:40.060 the same faith

01:13:41.080 and this was

01:13:41.780 they had something

01:13:42.980 at the time

01:13:43.500 which has degenerated

01:13:44.640 now called

01:13:45.080 the social gospel

01:13:45.940 the quote

01:13:47.820 what would Jesus do

01:13:48.900 which contemporary

01:13:50.020 Christians say

01:13:50.760 all the time

01:13:51.220 this was posited

01:13:52.480 by a socialist

01:13:53.740 Christian

01:13:54.260 because the idea

01:13:55.380 was instead

01:13:56.480 of an individual

01:13:57.900 soul being able

01:13:58.980 to be saved

01:13:59.540 which was kind

01:14:00.080 of the central

01:14:00.560 idea of Christianity

01:14:01.400 and a big innovation

01:14:02.280 in terms of

01:14:03.080 historical individualism

01:14:04.280 the premise

01:14:05.480 was a nation

01:14:06.700 has a soul

01:14:07.440 and a nation

01:14:08.420 can be saved

01:14:09.140 now once a nation

01:14:10.100 has a soul

01:14:10.660 and can be saved

01:14:11.400 there is nothing

01:14:12.180 outside your purview

01:14:13.020 just like when we're

01:14:13.880 talking about

01:14:14.260 individual soul

01:14:14.980 the bedroom

01:14:15.640 the boardroom

01:14:16.580 how you are in public

01:14:17.460 these all tie

01:14:18.360 into your salvation

01:14:19.320 and Eli

01:14:21.940 and other

01:14:22.520 in the UK

01:14:25.380 it was the Fabian Society

01:14:26.660 whose logo

01:14:28.160 was literally

01:14:28.940 a wolf in sheep's clothing

01:14:30.340 the premise of

01:14:31.740 was

01:14:32.300 it's kind of

01:14:32.800 Gramsci's

01:14:33.220 March of the Institutions

01:14:34.100 we're going to train

01:14:35.400 the next generation

01:14:36.720 of leaders

01:14:37.300 they're going to

01:14:37.920 self-identify as leaders

01:14:39.140 because they have

01:14:39.620 the diplomas

01:14:40.140 and degrees

01:14:40.740 and they're going

01:14:41.740 to go out there

01:14:42.340 and basically

01:14:42.920 be

01:14:43.440 infect

01:14:44.440 and take over

01:14:45.540 the country

01:14:46.080 and it's going

01:14:46.660 to be this

01:14:46.980 top-down idea

01:14:47.920 and you see

01:14:48.780 that it's

01:14:49.360 percolated

01:14:49.980 through this day

01:14:50.620 so you have

01:14:51.060 it starts with

01:14:51.480 universities

01:14:52.000 then you have

01:14:53.000 all the journalists

01:14:53.760 and people

01:14:54.180 who work in media

01:14:54.700 who are trained

01:14:55.300 at these universities

01:14:56.060 in the same ideas

01:14:57.080 and then the final

01:14:58.380 consequence

01:14:58.900 is the politicians

01:15:00.560 now for decades

01:15:01.580 what had happened

01:15:02.180 was you had

01:15:03.160 the Nancy's

01:15:04.120 Pelosi of the world

01:15:05.000 go on TV

01:15:06.040 and say

01:15:06.620 truthfully and honestly

01:15:07.980 give me money

01:15:09.180 re-elect me

01:15:10.140 I'm fighting

01:15:11.140 Mitch McConnell

01:15:11.800 and the wicked

01:15:12.220 Republicans

01:15:12.720 and the Mitch's

01:15:14.140 McConnell

01:15:14.560 went on TV

01:15:15.160 and say

01:15:15.660 give me money

01:15:16.580 I'm fighting

01:15:17.320 Nancy Pelosi

01:15:17.980 and the Democrats

01:15:18.660 meanwhile

01:15:19.320 while these two

01:15:20.100 are engaging

01:15:20.580 in this pantomime

01:15:21.440 the New York Times

01:15:22.840 Harvard

01:15:23.700 are lobbing grenades

01:15:25.460 over their shoulders

01:15:26.300 and they're not

01:15:27.040 taking any fire

01:15:27.820 at all

01:15:28.340 what has happened

01:15:29.500 now is people

01:15:30.580 are realizing

01:15:31.140 people like Biden

01:15:32.420 McConnell

01:15:33.180 these are puppets

01:15:34.260 of larger actors

01:15:35.220 and that's where

01:15:37.200 the focus needs to be

01:15:38.380 in terms of

01:15:39.040 effecting change

01:15:39.900 and liberating

01:15:40.560 the West

01:15:41.340 okay okay

01:15:42.200 so let me

01:15:43.400 let me act

01:15:44.420 as defender

01:15:45.040 of the patriarchy

01:15:45.920 momentarily

01:15:46.720 sure

01:15:47.380 and so

01:15:48.340 and I remember

01:15:49.720 I remember

01:15:50.340 the third question

01:15:51.260 and this relates

01:15:52.140 back to 4chan

01:15:53.020 is what

01:15:54.720 and to anarchism

01:15:55.820 for that matter

01:15:56.500 is that

01:15:57.000 there's this

01:15:58.200 there's this

01:15:58.840 critique of the

01:15:59.660 social contract

01:16:00.300 that's obviously

01:16:01.040 in order

01:16:01.500 and needs to continue

01:16:02.320 and the satirists

01:16:03.120 and so forth

01:16:03.760 are right

01:16:05.280 to do what they do

01:16:06.100 but then there's

01:16:07.220 the separate issue

01:16:08.360 of what responsibility

01:16:09.480 you owe your polity

01:16:10.880 and so

01:16:11.760 and maybe none

01:16:13.380 you could make that case

01:16:14.840 but I want to address that

01:16:16.220 but in any case

01:16:17.240 let's look at the elite institutions

01:16:19.400 in the United States

01:16:20.240 and what's happened to them

01:16:21.200 over the last 40 years

01:16:22.260 for better or for worse

01:16:23.220 so I know

01:16:23.920 I know how this worked

01:16:25.340 so

01:16:25.800 a hundred years ago

01:16:28.740 Harvard

01:16:29.160 Yale

01:16:29.980 the Ivy Leagues

01:16:30.920 they were essentially

01:16:32.420 aristocratic institutions

01:16:33.680 and you were in them

01:16:34.860 as a consequence of birth

01:16:36.160 okay

01:16:37.160 by the 1960s

01:16:38.640 that changed

01:16:39.280 and it changed

01:16:39.860 to IQ-based meritocracy

01:16:41.540 okay

01:16:42.860 the SAT

01:16:43.680 is an IQ test

01:16:44.860 now people swear up and down

01:16:46.060 it's not

01:16:46.500 but that's because

01:16:47.000 they don't know anything

01:16:47.760 about IQ tests

01:16:48.820 right

01:16:49.140 so to make an IQ test

01:16:50.840 all you have to do

01:16:51.640 is draw 20 random questions

01:16:54.120 from a set of abstract questions

01:16:56.200 sum up the right answers

01:16:58.280 and rank order them

01:16:59.900 across the population

01:17:01.220 that's basically all

01:17:02.180 an IQ test is

01:17:03.060 it's that powerful

01:17:03.980 an SAT is an IQ test

01:17:05.520 now increasingly

01:17:06.860 at the elite levels

01:17:08.340 in the universities

01:17:09.420 IQ is the determining

01:17:11.280 entrance requirement

01:17:12.780 and the average IQ

01:17:13.920 of people in the Ivy League schools

01:17:15.360 has gone up precipitously

01:17:16.700 since the early 1960s

01:17:18.120 when it wasn't much higher

01:17:19.540 than average

01:17:20.220 and now it's way higher

01:17:21.480 than average

01:17:21.860 and now you can debate

01:17:23.260 about whether or not

01:17:24.000 that's a good thing

01:17:24.880 that's a separate issue

01:17:26.100 but that is what's happened

01:17:27.440 and the reason

01:17:28.620 there was a bunch

01:17:29.420 of reasons for that

01:17:30.340 I mean one was

01:17:31.260 the realization that

01:17:32.560 IQ is actually

01:17:34.280 the best predictor

01:17:35.400 of success in colleges

01:17:36.900 it's not that good

01:17:38.460 but it's five times

01:17:39.980 as good as the next

01:17:40.900 best predictor

01:17:41.780 and it's also

01:17:42.920 relatively fair

01:17:44.320 in that

01:17:44.880 your SAT scores

01:17:47.440 are

01:17:47.780 they're a better determinant

01:17:50.980 of your success

01:17:51.920 in university

01:17:52.540 than which school

01:17:53.500 you graduated from

01:17:54.740 so a very very bright kid

01:17:56.600 from a very bad school

01:17:57.980 has a reasonable shot

01:17:59.720 at Ivy League admission

01:18:01.320 compared to say

01:18:03.380 a very bad student

01:18:05.020 at a very elite school

01:18:06.720 so there were socialists

01:18:08.340 who were pushing

01:18:08.840 the use of IQ

01:18:09.620 as well as people

01:18:10.560 who are more conservative

01:18:11.880 but in any case

01:18:13.440 there's no conspiracy

01:18:15.460 at work there precisely

01:18:16.980 there's a decision

01:18:18.780 on the part

01:18:19.500 of the institutions

01:18:20.500 as a whole

01:18:21.140 that it would be better

01:18:22.380 for the elite institutions

01:18:23.460 to be based on merit

01:18:24.740 as assessed by IQ

01:18:26.520 and that overall

01:18:27.980 that would be better

01:18:28.820 for the general population

01:18:29.960 because hypothetically

01:18:31.320 having smarter people

01:18:32.740 make decisions

01:18:33.800 because they can make decisions

01:18:36.040 using more information

01:18:37.140 is better for all concerned

01:18:38.900 so that's

01:18:39.520 so

01:18:40.060 there's a lot more

01:18:42.320 going on

01:18:42.880 at the upper ends

01:18:43.840 of the elite institutions

01:18:45.100 let's say

01:18:45.680 than

01:18:45.980 the mere conservation

01:18:48.000 of multi-generational power

01:18:50.360 there's a positive element

01:18:51.880 that I think

01:18:53.340 is overlooked

01:18:54.620 to

01:18:55.480 in a way

01:18:57.560 that looks to me

01:18:58.540 like the shirking

01:18:59.280 of responsibility

01:19:00.060 in revolutionary movements

01:19:02.080 like those even

01:19:02.860 that are spawned off

01:19:03.800 of 4chat

01:19:04.360 or that characterize anarchism

01:19:06.240 it's like

01:19:06.640 well what responsibility

01:19:08.340 do you have

01:19:09.580 to what it is

01:19:10.360 that's brought you

01:19:11.080 to the point

01:19:11.580 where for example

01:19:12.280 you can have this

01:19:13.000 technology mediated

01:19:13.940 conversation with me

01:19:15.040 criticize away

01:19:16.420 but like

01:19:16.920 where's the

01:19:17.780 where's the

01:19:18.680 where's the

01:19:19.540 emphasis on

01:19:20.960 where's the positive

01:19:22.640 contribution

01:19:23.380 and perhaps

01:19:24.280 even the gratitude

01:19:25.180 it's in the toilet

01:19:26.760 where it belongs

01:19:27.460 I mean

01:19:28.320 I reject totally

01:19:29.360 the idea

01:19:30.080 that somehow

01:19:30.720 I owe

01:19:31.460 we're on zoom

01:19:32.180 right now

01:19:32.660 I've got a mic

01:19:33.660 from

01:19:34.480 I don't even know

01:19:35.620 what brand

01:19:36.180 what I owe them

01:19:37.680 is the cost

01:19:39.280 that it paid me

01:19:40.100 to buy their product

01:19:41.180 and what I owe you

01:19:42.540 is to treat you with

01:19:43.620 which isn't

01:19:44.360 much of a cost at all

01:19:45.540 with courtesy

01:19:46.360 dignity

01:19:46.940 and respect

01:19:47.680 anytime people

01:19:49.520 start talking

01:19:50.120 about duties

01:19:50.720 and responsibilities

01:19:51.620 and gratitude

01:19:52.600 that's them

01:19:53.900 invoking

01:19:54.400 the unearned

01:19:55.700 wait wait

01:19:56.120 no no

01:19:56.800 I don't

01:19:57.180 I don't

01:19:57.500 I don't think

01:19:58.000 I don't think

01:19:58.460 it's that cut and dry

01:19:59.340 even in your formulation

01:20:00.880 because you said

01:20:02.380 well you pay for it

01:20:04.340 and fine

01:20:04.800 I'll leave that be

01:20:06.000 and say that's a

01:20:07.000 perfectly acceptable

01:20:07.780 answer

01:20:08.120 but you did say

01:20:09.600 that you know

01:20:10.880 that there's an

01:20:11.560 that

01:20:12.000 that you believe

01:20:13.620 that you have

01:20:14.180 a moral obligation

01:20:15.080 to what we're engaged

01:20:16.840 in right now

01:20:17.880 right

01:20:18.620 I don't think

01:20:19.020 we have a moral

01:20:19.340 you're going to

01:20:19.720 treat me with

01:20:20.340 you said three words

01:20:21.660 dignity

01:20:22.100 respect

01:20:22.580 something else

01:20:23.420 courtesy

01:20:23.840 yeah

01:20:24.200 courtesy

01:20:24.660 so you do

01:20:26.320 recognize that

01:20:27.680 there's an ethos

01:20:29.460 that should govern

01:20:30.340 our interactions

01:20:31.200 no I think

01:20:32.340 you've earned

01:20:32.860 all those things

01:20:33.720 I don't

01:20:34.240 act that way

01:20:34.800 toward everyone

01:20:35.320 that's fine

01:20:35.700 I have no problem

01:20:37.360 with that

01:20:37.760 but

01:20:37.960 I'm not

01:20:40.260 trying to undermine

01:20:41.920 your argument

01:20:42.520 either

01:20:42.840 I'm really curious

01:20:44.300 about this issue

01:20:45.020 of responsibility

01:20:45.760 because I pushed

01:20:46.760 it a lot

01:20:47.320 you know

01:20:48.060 and I've tried

01:20:48.500 to figure out

01:20:49.060 what response

01:20:50.100 so look

01:20:50.680 from my perspective

01:20:51.760 I would say

01:20:52.360 well your

01:20:53.200 your thought

01:20:54.320 centers on the

01:20:55.040 tyrannical element

01:20:55.860 of the great father

01:20:56.800 and like

01:20:57.940 yes

01:20:58.640 fair enough

01:20:59.460 like that's a major

01:21:00.480 existential concern

01:21:01.940 so in terms of

01:21:03.660 problems to focus on

01:21:04.800 it's a major problem

01:21:05.860 it's not the only problem

01:21:07.340 but it's a major problem

01:21:08.480 you know

01:21:08.980 you could focus on

01:21:09.820 the evil in your own soul

01:21:11.440 you could focus on

01:21:12.580 the catastrophes

01:21:13.540 of the natural world

01:21:14.640 well those are valid

01:21:15.660 large scale domains

01:21:17.620 of concern as well

01:21:18.580 but

01:21:19.260 for me

01:21:20.580 it's like

01:21:21.020 okay

01:21:21.340 well there is

01:21:21.960 the tyrannical aspect

01:21:23.040 but there's the

01:21:24.260 there's the aspect

01:21:25.820 of culture

01:21:26.400 that well

01:21:26.940 that you have enough

01:21:27.700 food to eat

01:21:28.280 and that you have heat

01:21:29.120 and that you have

01:21:29.920 you're the beneficiary

01:21:31.680 of the structure

01:21:32.500 that you're criticizing

01:21:33.460 and

01:21:33.780 you could say

01:21:35.160 well my criticism

01:21:35.880 is making the structure

01:21:36.960 stronger

01:21:37.520 but there's this element

01:21:38.720 in your

01:21:39.360 in your book

01:21:40.240 and in on

01:21:40.780 in the 4chan culture

01:21:41.980 and so forth

01:21:42.620 it seems to have this

01:21:43.720 like

01:21:44.000 it's this random

01:21:45.280 destructiveness

01:21:46.240 that

01:21:46.560 that

01:21:47.400 that looks to me

01:21:50.760 it's not driven by

01:21:52.340 it's not driven by

01:21:53.360 something that's going to be

01:21:54.520 clearly spoken of

01:21:57.560 and it's not driven

01:21:58.740 by something

01:21:59.200 that's aiming

01:21:59.700 at a good end

01:22:00.600 I think it's aiming

01:22:03.020 toward a more honest end

01:22:04.780 because very often

01:22:06.180 we're told things

01:22:07.080 like this person's a hero

01:22:08.320 that person's a hero

01:22:09.300 they should be valorized

01:22:10.520 and even if that

01:22:12.220 conclusion is accurate

01:22:13.360 you know

01:22:14.160 who are you

01:22:15.480 to tell me

01:22:16.780 that I need to valorize

01:22:18.140 that person

01:22:18.760 I mean one thing

01:22:19.460 if it's like showing

01:22:20.580 versus telling

01:22:21.200 like good writing

01:22:21.840 right

01:22:22.060 if you tell me

01:22:23.100 this person

01:22:23.600 has this accomplishment

01:22:24.380 that accomplishment

01:22:25.000 the natural

01:22:27.040 rational response

01:22:28.180 is this is a quality person

01:22:29.780 and we need more

01:22:30.820 I would love it

01:22:31.540 if there was a world

01:22:32.200 that had more people

01:22:32.940 like this

01:22:33.500 but

01:22:34.160 if

01:22:34.740 there's so many

01:22:36.040 outlets

01:22:36.600 more than you can count

01:22:37.620 Greta Thunberg

01:22:38.320 is a great example

01:22:39.080 you have some

01:22:40.160 random high school

01:22:41.020 dropout

01:22:41.620 who won't go to

01:22:43.000 back to school

01:22:43.820 until literally

01:22:44.500 everyone on earth

01:22:45.180 changes the weather

01:22:45.880 for her

01:22:46.320 and Time Magazine

01:22:47.520 is calling her

01:22:48.140 person the year

01:22:49.040 I think to have

01:22:50.300 that undermining

01:22:51.180 of Time Magazine

01:22:52.620 and I gotta tell you

01:22:53.920 there's lots of things

01:22:54.600 you could say positive

01:22:55.240 about her

01:22:55.660 you know

01:22:56.120 that's very easy

01:22:57.120 she's made something

01:22:58.180 of herself

01:22:58.660 but it's Time Magazine

01:23:00.900 that's far more

01:23:01.600 of the target

01:23:02.160 than her

01:23:03.100 it's these agencies

01:23:04.220 that presume

01:23:05.260 to tell me

01:23:06.500 who I should respect

01:23:07.880 and value

01:23:08.560 and it's not on my terms

01:23:10.340 it's on their

01:23:11.620 self-serving terms

01:23:13.060 you don't need to tell me

01:23:14.460 that Black Lives Matter

01:23:15.480 I know this

01:23:16.420 I'm from Brooklyn

01:23:17.320 and you don't need to tell me

01:23:18.840 literally every five seconds

01:23:20.380 and only

01:23:21.740 we decide all together

01:23:23.160 that they matter

01:23:23.780 this month

01:23:24.420 and then next week

01:23:25.760 it's gonna be

01:23:26.500 gay history

01:23:27.700 so trans lives

01:23:28.520 are gonna matter

01:23:29.060 then we go back

01:23:29.980 to Black Lives Matter

01:23:30.980 it's like

01:23:31.480 okay so what

01:23:31.820 fine

01:23:32.660 fair enough

01:23:34.300 you know

01:23:34.620 that's a compelling

01:23:36.340 sequence of statements

01:23:37.740 it's like

01:23:38.100 what is it exactly

01:23:39.540 I'm not being smart

01:23:40.760 I mean that

01:23:41.400 no no

01:23:41.880 that's something

01:23:43.200 I would say

01:23:43.740 when I am being smart

01:23:44.620 so that's why

01:23:45.060 okay

01:23:45.380 okay

01:23:45.740 no well

01:23:46.260 but I'm

01:23:47.100 that's a compelling

01:23:48.020 series of statements

01:23:49.240 that is such a

01:23:50.120 I'm observing it

01:23:50.900 I'm observing it

01:23:52.760 you know

01:23:53.000 because

01:23:53.340 you put the argument

01:23:54.580 you put the argument

01:23:56.700 forward with force

01:23:57.960 yeah

01:23:58.800 and it's interesting

01:23:59.740 to me to listen

01:24:00.600 okay

01:24:01.760 so I know

01:24:02.340 there's something to it

01:24:03.480 so I'm trying to figure out

01:24:05.000 exactly what it is

01:24:05.780 so then I think to myself

01:24:06.820 well

01:24:07.080 what exactly

01:24:08.720 is it that you're objecting to

01:24:10.340 like is it

01:24:11.040 now you said

01:24:11.980 well it's flavor

01:24:12.620 it's moral flavor

01:24:13.860 of the month

01:24:14.640 it's something like that

01:24:15.740 and it's the imposition

01:24:17.060 of the moral flavor

01:24:18.240 of the month

01:24:18.820 it's objectionable

01:24:19.720 and that's somehow

01:24:20.380 tied to the contempt

01:24:21.760 the this elitist contempt

01:24:24.020 and I think that's fair

01:24:25.840 but so

01:24:26.480 but

01:24:27.040 it's

01:24:28.180 the question

01:24:29.560 to say

01:24:29.920 you say they

01:24:30.980 and the they

01:24:31.720 contains the enemy

01:24:32.920 in some sense

01:24:33.680 and so

01:24:34.060 my question is

01:24:34.960 well exactly

01:24:35.620 what is the enemy

01:24:37.380 and who is the enemy

01:24:38.500 and where is it exactly

01:24:40.040 and

01:24:40.760 Harvard Yard

01:24:41.760 the New York Times offices

01:24:43.800 and

01:24:44.760 Congress

01:24:45.940 and the White House

01:24:46.980 and corporations

01:24:49.400 oh absolutely

01:24:50.940 okay

01:24:51.500 where isn't it

01:24:52.540 it isn't

01:24:54.560 right here

01:24:55.100 you and I

01:24:55.760 okay

01:24:56.100 why

01:24:56.520 why

01:24:57.640 because

01:24:57.880 why right here and now

01:24:59.080 why isn't it here

01:25:00.120 right here and now

01:25:00.960 I'll tell you why

01:25:02.020 because neither of us

01:25:03.520 are doing anything

01:25:04.660 other than presenting

01:25:05.700 our own perspective

01:25:06.660 we are letting people

01:25:08.120 agree with us

01:25:08.820 or disagree with us

01:25:09.800 from their own choice

01:25:11.060 it's not going to matter

01:25:12.320 to me or to you

01:25:12.960 whether someone agrees

01:25:13.820 or disagree

01:25:14.300 you're speaking your truth

01:25:15.820 I'm speaking mine

01:25:16.720 to use a cliched expression

01:25:18.040 and

01:25:18.680 at the very least

01:25:19.900 I hope that people

01:25:20.820 are watching this

01:25:21.620 and being entertained

01:25:22.360 and having their thoughts

01:25:23.240 provoked

01:25:23.700 I am not in any way

01:25:25.580 regarding

01:25:26.420 and I certainly

01:25:27.560 don't have the power

01:25:28.380 to impose the idea

01:25:29.640 that if you think

01:25:30.880 I'm a jerk

01:25:31.560 and full of crap

01:25:32.860 that somehow

01:25:33.440 that makes you a bad person

01:25:34.700 or that you should have

01:25:35.720 some kind of

01:25:36.200 social consequence

01:25:37.720 as a result

01:25:38.360 these different organizations

01:25:40.180 absolutely do

01:25:41.240 and let me give you

01:25:41.900 one example

01:25:42.660 and this kind of speaks

01:25:43.560 to cancel culture

01:25:44.720 which is obviously

01:25:45.420 a very hot topic

01:25:47.040 at the moment

01:25:47.540 the head of CrossFit

01:25:49.340 which is this big gay

01:25:51.060 fitness organization

01:25:52.520 he came out

01:25:53.780 when we were all caring

01:25:54.920 about specifically

01:25:55.680 Black Lives Matter

01:25:56.520 and he said

01:25:56.920 look we're about

01:25:58.060 deadlifts and burpees

01:25:59.120 I don't know

01:25:59.980 we don't regard race

01:26:01.940 as anything

01:26:02.300 we're about fitness

01:26:03.000 and we're very diverse

01:26:04.460 what does that have to do

01:26:05.380 with us

01:26:05.780 and he got fired

01:26:07.000 as a result of this

01:26:07.860 so again

01:26:08.800 it's fighting against this

01:26:10.380 that's the big difference

01:26:11.400 neither of us

01:26:12.180 are in a position to

01:26:13.200 nor would we

01:26:14.300 I can't speak for you

01:26:15.060 but I bet you would

01:26:15.940 agree with me

01:26:16.440 ever dream

01:26:17.440 of telling someone

01:26:18.800 this is my example

01:26:20.020 North Korea

01:26:20.620 right

01:26:21.040 I did my book

01:26:21.620 on North Korea

01:26:22.180 dear reader

01:26:22.740 it's an issue

01:26:23.640 that means a lot to me

01:26:24.800 there's a lot of Americans

01:26:26.220 who just simply don't care

01:26:27.580 I don't think

01:26:28.460 they're bad people

01:26:29.280 because I think

01:26:30.620 there's very little

01:26:31.420 they can do about it

01:26:32.480 there's very little

01:26:33.140 I can do

01:26:33.740 all I tried to do

01:26:34.500 with my book

01:26:35.160 was move the needle

01:26:36.300 and have people

01:26:37.120 perceive the nation

01:26:38.040 and its population differently

01:26:39.340 but I haven't liberated

01:26:40.460 North Korea

01:26:41.000 so it's perfectly legitimate

01:26:42.400 if they have different concerns

01:26:43.640 or if they're not interested

01:26:44.600 but this is not how

01:26:46.420 the cathedral works

01:26:47.560 okay okay

01:26:48.160 so I've been sitting

01:26:49.040 I've been spending the last

01:26:50.940 when I give a lecture

01:26:52.920 I know what I'm doing enough

01:26:56.460 to keep the audience interested

01:26:57.820 but I also know what I'm doing

01:27:00.100 like I can say what I'm doing

01:27:01.500 I have the practice

01:27:03.560 but also a theory

01:27:04.400 and they match

01:27:05.140 and so before I give a lecture

01:27:06.760 I figure out

01:27:08.100 what problem I'm addressing

01:27:10.140 I have to have that question

01:27:11.820 in my mind

01:27:12.440 and then I have like

01:27:13.840 okay I'm going to investigate

01:27:15.220 this problem

01:27:16.100 and I'm going to push my thinking

01:27:17.460 more than I've already pushed it

01:27:19.160 on my feet

01:27:20.380 and I'm going to use

01:27:21.160 these eight tools

01:27:22.840 or places

01:27:23.840 or stories

01:27:25.120 as investigative tools

01:27:26.620 and then I'm going to see

01:27:27.900 what comes out of that

01:27:29.200 and so that's

01:27:29.920 and if I sit down

01:27:30.880 and I really think about it

01:27:32.280 think it through

01:27:33.280 then the lecture will go well

01:27:34.720 and what I am doing

01:27:35.960 as far as I can tell

01:27:36.860 is thinking on my feet

01:27:38.160 and people seem

01:27:39.940 to like watching that

01:27:41.540 okay now I've been thinking

01:27:43.600 all right

01:27:44.060 what are we doing

01:27:45.660 in a TV

01:27:47.040 a standard TV interview

01:27:48.840 and what are we doing

01:27:50.260 in a podcast

01:27:50.780 because now

01:27:51.440 I have this podcast

01:27:52.420 and I'm enjoying it

01:27:53.460 and it's such a thrill

01:27:54.720 for me

01:27:55.060 because I can reach out

01:27:56.500 to virtually anyone

01:27:57.300 in the world

01:27:57.820 and say look

01:27:58.560 I'd really like to find out

01:27:59.820 what you think

01:28:00.780 and they'll say yes

01:28:01.920 and I can talk to them

01:28:02.820 and so it's unbelievably

01:28:04.300 it's an unbelievably

01:28:05.340 great thing to do

01:28:06.360 and then I've been thinking

01:28:07.340 well I can feel

01:28:08.940 when it's going well

01:28:11.140 and when it isn't

01:28:11.780 when it goes flat

01:28:12.640 and when it's going well

01:28:13.840 we're doing what we're doing

01:28:14.880 it's kind of engaging

01:28:15.820 and there's a

01:28:16.520 there's a pugilistic element

01:28:18.160 to it

01:28:18.580 and but

01:28:19.340 but there's no rancor

01:28:21.440 there's no outright anger

01:28:23.780 right

01:28:24.800 or it's not directed

01:28:26.500 at the process

01:28:27.220 we're engaged

01:28:27.860 in this mutual exploration

01:28:29.220 that's what it looks like

01:28:30.080 to me

01:28:30.380 and I've been trying

01:28:31.240 to formalize that

01:28:32.160 so you know

01:28:33.300 when I have a guest

01:28:34.420 I have a series of problems

01:28:36.720 that I'd like to investigate

01:28:37.840 with them

01:28:38.480 and then I invite them

01:28:40.100 to participate

01:28:41.060 and so then I think

01:28:43.000 well to me

01:28:43.860 that's the logos

01:28:44.800 in operation

01:28:45.720 that and that's why

01:28:46.720 people like it

01:28:47.480 the logos is this

01:28:48.520 it's exploratory

01:28:50.280 verbal activity

01:28:51.240 something like that

01:28:52.220 and people really like that

01:28:54.260 and I talked to

01:28:55.320 a Wall Street journalist

01:28:56.880 journal journalist

01:28:58.160 the other week

01:28:58.860 about podcasts

01:28:59.740 and he said

01:29:01.040 that the reason

01:29:01.580 he likes them

01:29:02.060 is because he doesn't know

01:29:02.860 where they're going to go

01:29:04.000 yes

01:29:04.620 exactly

01:29:05.300 right

01:29:05.760 so they're

01:29:06.200 so in

01:29:07.020 they're agenda-less

01:29:08.580 in that sense

01:29:09.480 right

01:29:09.780 because you can't

01:29:10.340 and it's

01:29:10.980 sincere in that sense

01:29:12.340 because you have to have

01:29:13.240 some element of honesty

01:29:14.180 if it's improv

01:29:14.880 yes exactly

01:29:16.640 well and I also think

01:29:17.580 these new forms

01:29:18.420 really punish

01:29:19.340 people who don't

01:29:20.760 engage in that

01:29:21.740 so like now and then

01:29:23.120 I'll talk to a podcast host

01:29:24.660 who's a legacy journalist

01:29:25.960 and they'll slip into

01:29:28.160 well here's a question

01:29:29.400 it's like

01:29:29.920 yeah yeah

01:29:30.640 is that your question

01:29:32.220 or is that a question

01:29:33.900 you know

01:29:35.060 and it's sort of like

01:29:35.780 a lecturer

01:29:36.280 who reads the

01:29:37.340 powerpoint slides

01:29:38.520 instead of

01:29:39.220 talking spontaneously

01:29:41.080 about the topic

01:29:42.320 I

01:29:43.120 I completely agree

01:29:44.660 and I think this also

01:29:45.500 speaks to why

01:29:46.240 this kind of

01:29:47.320 mechanism for conversation

01:29:49.120 is so popular

01:29:49.900 people

01:29:50.820 very rarely

01:29:52.100 and even you and I

01:29:53.460 I mean

01:29:53.820 have the opportunity

01:29:54.880 to see two intelligent

01:29:56.180 informed people

01:29:57.200 who might disagree

01:29:58.120 about things

01:29:58.800 have that long

01:29:59.720 conversation

01:30:00.320 with virtually

01:30:00.880 no possibility

01:30:01.720 of it being hostile

01:30:02.460 if it's not at a party

01:30:03.380 so you can hear each other

01:30:04.300 you can listen to it

01:30:05.340 at your own leisure

01:30:06.160 and you're going to be

01:30:07.720 learning something

01:30:08.620 or you're at the very least

01:30:09.720 going to have

01:30:10.180 it's just fascinating

01:30:11.240 conversational dynamics

01:30:12.440 even if you and I

01:30:13.500 were arguing over

01:30:14.240 cake versus pie

01:30:15.260 and which is better

01:30:16.000 and obviously the answer

01:30:17.100 is cake

01:30:17.460 because pies are messy

01:30:18.340 but at the same time

01:30:19.840 it's fun

01:30:20.500 because they're watching

01:30:21.980 minds at work

01:30:23.660 it's just like

01:30:24.160 when you're watching

01:30:24.640 a gymnast

01:30:25.360 for example

01:30:25.860 or a great dancer

01:30:27.400 it's just exciting

01:30:28.560 to see an aspect

01:30:29.280 of the human mind

01:30:30.100 the human anatomy

01:30:30.760 at its finest

01:30:31.960 or maybe

01:30:32.420 we're getting a B

01:30:33.520 I don't know

01:30:34.100 but the point is

01:30:35.020 to watch that

01:30:35.680 inaction

01:30:36.060 yeah but when you see

01:30:37.660 when you see corporate

01:30:39.140 anything

01:30:39.600 it's always unnatural

01:30:42.000 there's

01:30:43.580 is there anything

01:30:44.060 more ironic

01:30:44.780 than the expression

01:30:46.120 reality TV

01:30:47.160 by its own nature

01:30:48.480 they admit

01:30:48.960 this is not real

01:30:49.880 the it's

01:30:50.660 a lot of it's improv

01:30:51.500 it's all staged

01:30:52.380 it's all edited

01:30:53.200 whereas what we're doing

01:30:54.860 we're not editing

01:30:55.540 and we're going to say

01:30:56.240 ahm and ah

01:30:56.900 and you know

01:30:57.780 oh yeah

01:30:58.500 we're going to have

01:30:58.880 l'esprit d'escalier

01:30:59.720 we're going to cut off

01:31:00.440 the mics

01:31:00.780 and I'm like

01:31:01.100 oh gosh

01:31:01.620 I wish I would have

01:31:02.260 said that

01:31:02.740 and you're going

01:31:03.400 to say something else

01:31:04.240 but that I think

01:31:05.820 is what

01:31:06.280 earnestness

01:31:07.760 in a positive sense

01:31:09.020 people are

01:31:09.860 missing out

01:31:10.860 and that's the opposite

01:31:11.780 of corporate America

01:31:12.960 corporate America

01:31:14.080 is synthetic

01:31:15.420 phony earnestness

01:31:17.120 I had this quote

01:31:18.320 I say

01:31:18.780 if you look at

01:31:19.640 Times Square

01:31:22.000 during gay pride

01:31:23.040 only corporate America

01:31:24.560 can make

01:31:25.440 sodomy and perversion

01:31:27.060 seem downright boring

01:31:28.240 I mean if you looked

01:31:29.460 at the corporate

01:31:29.960 presentation of

01:31:31.160 people who are gay

01:31:32.360 you think what that means

01:31:33.960 is hugging each other

01:31:34.860 after brunch

01:31:35.500 and shaking hands

01:31:37.160 it's this complete

01:31:38.440 divorce

01:31:39.620 from any kind of reality

01:31:42.440 of any kind of culture

01:31:43.540 I would say

01:31:44.360 that

01:31:45.640 the

01:31:47.820 the attribution

01:31:49.440 of this

01:31:50.780 the identification

01:31:52.140 of this

01:31:53.100 with

01:31:54.100 corporate America

01:31:55.700 with the universities

01:31:57.540 with

01:31:58.040 the legacy media

01:31:59.480 all of that

01:32:00.680 it's

01:32:01.620 it's

01:32:02.840 not

01:32:03.700 it's like

01:32:04.540 the Marxists

01:32:05.440 criticizing capitalism

01:32:06.920 for inequality

01:32:07.860 of distribution

01:32:08.700 it's like

01:32:09.580 inequality of distribution

01:32:10.600 is a way deeper

01:32:11.820 problem

01:32:12.280 than any critique

01:32:13.180 of capitalism

01:32:13.860 will ever

01:32:14.440 formulate properly

01:32:15.560 or solve

01:32:16.240 and I would say

01:32:17.320 we're getting at

01:32:19.280 something here

01:32:19.860 that

01:32:20.140 transcends

01:32:21.800 the anarchist

01:32:23.380 critique

01:32:23.900 of structure

01:32:24.800 at least

01:32:26.320 as

01:32:26.500 or you could say

01:32:28.220 or you could say

01:32:29.680 forces it deeper

01:32:30.680 look

01:32:31.820 the old

01:32:32.280 the ancient Egyptians

01:32:33.800 had two gods

01:32:36.060 Osiris

01:32:36.900 and Horus

01:32:37.800 and Osiris

01:32:39.240 they had enough to

01:32:40.320 they had a ton of them

01:32:40.980 yes

01:32:41.160 they had two main gods

01:32:42.480 that made up their

01:32:43.180 conception of sovereignty

01:32:44.300 sorry

01:32:44.680 yes

01:32:45.080 that the pharaoh

01:32:46.040 modeled himself

01:32:47.160 again

01:32:47.480 over

01:32:48.580 modeled himself

01:32:49.620 on the interaction

01:32:50.940 of these two gods

01:32:51.820 there was Osiris

01:32:53.000 who was the state

01:32:54.100 for all intents and purposes

01:32:55.340 structure per se

01:32:56.740 and his sin

01:32:58.120 was willful blindness

01:32:59.200 and

01:32:59.700 and

01:33:00.640 and

01:33:01.720 and

01:33:02.240 and stultification

01:33:03.380 and

01:33:04.360 Horus

01:33:05.260 was the

01:33:05.660 attentive eye

01:33:06.760 and in other formulations

01:33:08.760 the ability to speak

01:33:10.080 and so

01:33:11.300 there's a dynamic there

01:33:12.680 that was recognized

01:33:13.540 a very long time ago

01:33:14.520 that

01:33:14.800 that

01:33:15.700 that

01:33:16.020 that

01:33:16.720 that

01:33:17.460 that

01:33:17.680 centers on this issue

01:33:19.480 that you brought up

01:33:20.180 about sincerity

01:33:21.040 and truth

01:33:21.800 you know

01:33:22.880 you're complaining

01:33:23.820 and rightly so

01:33:24.780 when you hear

01:33:25.720 stale repackaged ideas

01:33:28.040 that are being presented

01:33:29.020 for reasons

01:33:29.780 other than

01:33:30.720 the actual reason

01:33:32.180 it's something like that

01:33:33.600 isn't it

01:33:34.000 it's like

01:33:34.420 I can't trust

01:33:35.400 what you're saying

01:33:36.000 because

01:33:36.300 you're actually using

01:33:37.440 that language

01:33:38.100 to manipulate me

01:33:39.520 to do something

01:33:40.140 that you're not stating

01:33:41.220 correct

01:33:42.300 and

01:33:42.620 and that would be

01:33:43.220 Mountain Dew

01:33:43.840 and the naming

01:33:45.520 it's like

01:33:45.960 isn't this fun

01:33:46.720 it's like

01:33:47.120 well maybe it's fun

01:33:48.060 but really you want to sell

01:33:49.260 you know

01:33:50.140 Mountain Dew

01:33:50.780 and if you came out

01:33:51.960 and said that

01:33:52.460 we wouldn't make fun of you

01:33:53.460 but if you're going to pretend

01:33:54.400 we're going to go after you

01:33:55.640 and

01:33:56.340 and when it gets very pernicious

01:33:57.640 it's you're claiming

01:33:58.480 you're fighting racism

01:33:59.460 but what you're really wanting

01:34:00.520 is to promote war

01:34:01.860 and killing

01:34:02.800 many many people

01:34:03.820 so that is where

01:34:04.980 the critique is more than

01:34:06.260 Mountain Dew

01:34:07.280 is what it is

01:34:07.980 it's selling

01:34:08.560 it's

01:34:09.020 Mountain Dew is fun

01:34:09.860 I enjoy Mountain Dew

01:34:10.800 I don't drink it much

01:34:11.580 because I'm in my late 80s

01:34:12.780 but basically kids like it

01:34:14.020 the different colors

01:34:14.760 different flavors

01:34:15.400 it certainly serves a purpose

01:34:16.900 you know

01:34:17.420 you want to get buzzed

01:34:18.520 out of your mind

01:34:19.000 on the caffeine

01:34:19.560 more power to you

01:34:20.660 there's nothing

01:34:21.120 other than some cavities

01:34:22.160 there's nothing really nefarious

01:34:23.740 there is something

01:34:24.980 very nefarious

01:34:26.040 when Amy Rohrbach

01:34:27.680 is caught on a hot mic

01:34:29.040 saying that

01:34:30.220 they had everything

01:34:31.220 on Prince Philip

01:34:32.980 or Prince Albert

01:34:33.660 I always get them confused

01:34:34.600 who was friends

01:34:35.700 with Jeffrey Epstein

01:34:36.400 that they had everything

01:34:37.520 on the Clintons

01:34:38.340 and they got a call

01:34:40.180 from Buckingham Palace

01:34:41.960 and because there was

01:34:43.240 a Meghan Markle interview

01:34:44.840 you know

01:34:45.460 on the table

01:34:46.140 that they killed

01:34:47.460 this entire story

01:34:48.700 this is her talking

01:34:49.660 on a hot mic

01:34:50.300 meanwhile

01:34:50.980 if that camera turned off

01:34:52.540 and you said

01:34:53.780 is it true

01:34:54.480 that you had this

01:34:55.840 international pedophile ring

01:34:57.360 and one of the people

01:34:58.600 in Buckingham Palace

01:34:59.420 was involved

01:35:00.060 and you know

01:35:00.960 their lawyers called

01:35:02.380 and you killed the story

01:35:03.200 she would say

01:35:03.780 are you crazy

01:35:04.500 that's a conspiracy theory

01:35:05.640 Harvey Weinstein

01:35:06.800 is another example of this

01:35:07.900 there was a conspiracy

01:35:08.580 we all knew

01:35:09.460 Bill Cosby was another one

01:35:11.780 he got outed

01:35:12.520 by Hannibal Buress

01:35:13.360 who was a comedian

01:35:14.060 who just said

01:35:14.660 look it up

01:35:15.120 all this stuff

01:35:15.980 was bubbling under

01:35:16.720 all these women

01:35:17.320 they weren't all

01:35:18.040 completely silent

01:35:18.820 so I think that's

01:35:20.100 the big difference

01:35:20.680 between Mountain Dew

01:35:21.500 and the corporate press

01:35:22.920 we're not talking

01:35:23.640 about people

01:35:24.200 who are promoting

01:35:24.900 cavities

01:35:25.700 we're talking

01:35:26.680 about people

01:35:27.100 who are promoting

01:35:27.760 war and depravity

01:35:28.980 or covering up

01:35:29.820 so if I said

01:35:31.100 well maybe

01:35:32.160 when I was

01:35:33.880 when I was reading

01:35:34.940 your book

01:35:35.440 and thinking about

01:35:36.220 it a lot

01:35:37.260 and thinking about

01:35:38.240 4chan

01:35:38.700 and all of the

01:35:39.280 things we've talked

01:35:39.940 about

01:35:40.180 I thought

01:35:40.540 well

01:35:40.820 have you been

01:35:41.840 on 4chan since

01:35:42.680 have you actually

01:35:43.900 looked at it

01:35:44.440 no I'm

01:35:45.400 I'm complete

01:35:46.080 I'm ignorant

01:35:46.860 about how 4chan

01:35:48.100 works

01:35:48.580 so

01:35:49.060 it's just a message

01:35:50.000 board

01:35:50.280 right right

01:35:51.180 well I guess

01:35:51.940 I knew that much

01:35:52.820 but I would also

01:35:53.420 say I'm not

01:35:54.000 familiar enough

01:35:54.840 with message boards

01:35:55.780 to really

01:35:56.660 you know

01:35:57.380 to have a

01:35:57.940 built-in sense

01:35:59.160 of what that means

01:36:00.200 that's not an area

01:36:01.900 of social

01:36:02.460 communication

01:36:02.920 that I've

01:36:03.600 engaged in

01:36:04.280 and I'm not

01:36:04.800 saying that

01:36:05.240 with pride

01:36:05.880 it's a form

01:36:06.700 of ignorance

01:36:07.180 you know

01:36:07.560 I mean I've

01:36:08.060 learned

01:36:08.400 not to despise

01:36:10.580 social media

01:36:11.740 platforms

01:36:12.380 you're a fool

01:36:13.100 if you allow

01:36:13.740 your willingness

01:36:14.540 to despise them

01:36:15.400 because you don't

01:36:15.880 know anything

01:36:16.280 about them

01:36:16.760 to stop you

01:36:17.360 from learning

01:36:17.800 how to use

01:36:18.380 them

01:36:18.560 or from

01:36:19.200 taking them

01:36:19.740 seriously

01:36:20.340 they're serious

01:36:21.320 those things

01:36:21.960 so

01:36:22.220 oh yes

01:36:22.680 they're revolutionary

01:36:23.760 those techniques

01:36:24.420 okay so

01:36:25.420 I read

01:36:26.180 and I think

01:36:26.640 well wait a second

01:36:27.400 you seem to be

01:36:29.680 not segregating

01:36:33.060 the critique

01:36:34.080 of corruption

01:36:35.440 from the critique

01:36:36.300 of structure

01:36:37.060 and this is

01:36:38.220 also what I think

01:36:39.200 is happening

01:36:39.700 with the post-modernists

01:36:40.800 they look at

01:36:41.360 hierarchies

01:36:42.080 and they think

01:36:42.940 well they're all

01:36:43.880 based on power

01:36:44.640 and here's the

01:36:45.380 evidence of corruption

01:36:46.360 it's like yeah

01:36:47.140 no kidding

01:36:47.720 but that doesn't

01:36:49.540 mean they're only

01:36:50.560 based on power

01:36:51.660 and it's the same

01:36:52.740 with corporations

01:36:53.500 like I know

01:36:54.040 lots of people

01:36:54.640 who work in

01:36:55.220 corporate environments

01:36:55.980 and some of them

01:36:56.620 are really admirable

01:36:57.760 and the things

01:36:58.840 they do in the

01:36:59.440 corporate environments

01:37:00.080 are also admirable

01:37:01.180 and I would also

01:37:01.980 say that my

01:37:02.740 experience has

01:37:03.420 taught me that

01:37:04.040 when corporations

01:37:05.300 start to act

01:37:06.860 the way you

01:37:07.960 conceptualize them

01:37:09.400 their doom is

01:37:12.620 sealed far more

01:37:13.900 rapidly than people

01:37:14.980 generally realize

01:37:16.040 oh I agree

01:37:17.440 they collapse

01:37:17.860 so you're not

01:37:19.260 objective

01:37:19.700 so it's useful

01:37:20.700 to disaggregate

01:37:21.800 the critique of

01:37:22.460 structure from

01:37:23.140 the critique of

01:37:24.180 deceit

01:37:24.900 you know

01:37:26.160 I think the

01:37:27.380 deceit's baked in

01:37:28.180 I don't like

01:37:29.620 using the word

01:37:30.100 corruption

01:37:30.580 because that

01:37:31.320 implies these

01:37:31.960 people can be

01:37:32.580 saved and these

01:37:33.220 organizations can be

01:37:34.080 saved

01:37:34.380 I do not believe

01:37:35.720 that they are

01:37:36.180 and even if they

01:37:36.700 are I'm not

01:37:37.120 interested in saving

01:37:37.880 them

01:37:38.020 I'm interested to

01:37:38.660 bring them down

01:37:39.080 see I don't see

01:37:39.680 them as this is

01:37:40.560 the they problem

01:37:41.500 you see

01:37:41.860 look part of the

01:37:43.040 reason I think

01:37:43.820 do you want to

01:37:45.480 talk about Walter

01:37:45.980 Durante

01:37:46.360 I mean

01:37:47.040 sorry

01:37:47.560 you want to

01:37:48.740 talk about Walter

01:37:49.200 Durante

01:37:49.600 these are the

01:37:50.200 same exact actors

01:37:52.600 that have had so

01:37:54.020 much blood on

01:37:54.680 their hands for

01:37:55.200 decades and have

01:37:56.980 never had any

01:37:57.660 accountability

01:37:58.040 let me give you

01:37:58.540 one example

01:37:59.120 but I always

01:38:00.200 think that that's

01:38:00.960 me

01:38:01.520 not them

01:38:03.480 I don't

01:38:04.140 why is that

01:38:05.240 you

01:38:05.480 you don't work

01:38:07.260 for the

01:38:07.580 let me give you

01:38:08.400 one example

01:38:09.060 you can answer

01:38:09.540 if you say

01:38:10.100 this sounds

01:38:10.560 like you

01:38:10.940 we're all

01:38:11.880 taught in

01:38:12.280 school about

01:38:13.020 William Randolph

01:38:13.700 Hearst

01:38:14.060 the Spanish

01:38:14.940 American

01:38:15.300 War

01:38:16.060 remember the

01:38:16.600 main

01:38:16.820 yellow

01:38:17.140 journalism

01:38:17.640 right

01:38:18.020 and how the

01:38:19.000 media

01:38:19.660 would gin up

01:38:21.060 these problems

01:38:21.880 which had

01:38:22.660 literally

01:38:23.320 thousands of

01:38:24.620 deaths

01:38:24.900 needless deaths

01:38:25.940 as a consequence

01:38:26.580 then there's a

01:38:27.900 record scratch

01:38:28.680 and all of a

01:38:29.880 sudden all these

01:38:30.500 outlets have no

01:38:31.520 agenda

01:38:31.960 and are objective

01:38:33.340 and are decent

01:38:34.260 actors

01:38:34.740 my point is

01:38:35.700 there was never

01:38:36.200 a record scratch

01:38:36.980 this has always

01:38:37.920 been a problem

01:38:38.560 for a very long

01:38:39.460 time

01:38:39.860 and especially

01:38:41.500 this is something

01:38:42.300 I would think

01:38:42.700 would be very much

01:38:43.240 up your alley

01:38:43.900 the amount

01:38:44.900 that these

01:38:45.940 organizations

01:38:47.240 and the

01:38:48.160 equivalents

01:38:48.680 of contemporary

01:38:49.220 actors

01:38:49.640 have their

01:38:50.740 role

01:38:51.220 in putting

01:38:52.120 over and

01:38:52.660 maintaining

01:38:53.160 the Soviet

01:38:53.800 Union

01:38:54.180 and specifically

01:38:55.420 Stalinism

01:38:56.360 which they have

01:38:57.220 never apologized

01:38:58.260 for

01:38:58.800 which they've

01:38:59.540 had no

01:39:00.340 accountability

01:39:00.880 for

01:39:01.420 and now

01:39:02.200 they're presuming

01:39:02.980 to sit here

01:39:03.500 and lecture

01:39:04.040 the layman

01:39:05.100 about being

01:39:06.040 a decent

01:39:06.560 person

01:39:06.980 and being

01:39:07.320 responsible

01:39:07.920 that to me

01:39:08.880 is a complete

01:39:09.480 abomination

01:39:10.040 I agree

01:39:12.780 with all of

01:39:13.380 that except

01:39:13.840 the attribution

01:39:14.700 of blame

01:39:15.300 so let me

01:39:16.680 ask you

01:39:17.000 I'm going to

01:39:17.380 go sideways

01:39:17.860 just for a

01:39:18.480 second

01:39:18.700 but it's in

01:39:19.200 service

01:39:19.500 of this

01:39:19.860 particular

01:39:20.260 discussion

01:39:20.780 you said

01:39:22.160 a little

01:39:22.760 while ago

01:39:23.240 that you

01:39:24.420 were

01:39:24.800 you know

01:39:25.860 that one

01:39:26.220 of the

01:39:26.420 rules of

01:39:26.780 engagement

01:39:27.180 for us

01:39:27.660 as far

01:39:27.960 as you're

01:39:28.220 concerned

01:39:28.520 right now

01:39:29.020 is that

01:39:29.300 you were

01:39:29.580 going to

01:39:30.080 treat me

01:39:30.720 with dignity

01:39:31.320 respect

01:39:31.760 and there

01:39:32.420 was something

01:39:32.780 else

01:39:33.000 courtesy

01:39:33.420 courtesy

01:39:34.200 okay

01:39:34.860 okay

01:39:35.240 and then

01:39:36.200 I said

01:39:36.600 well

01:39:36.840 you know

01:39:37.380 those are

01:39:37.740 the cooperative

01:39:38.300 rules

01:39:38.620 and you

01:39:38.920 said to

01:39:39.380 me

01:39:39.540 no

01:39:39.800 you earned

01:39:40.340 it

01:39:40.520 and so

01:39:40.840 I want

01:39:41.260 to ask

01:39:41.700 you

01:39:41.880 like

01:39:42.140 and then

01:39:43.640 we'll go

01:39:43.920 back to

01:39:44.280 this other

01:39:44.640 discussion

01:39:45.040 if that's

01:39:45.460 okay

01:39:45.700 what makes

01:39:48.100 you think

01:39:48.580 I've earned

01:39:49.080 it

01:39:49.380 because I

01:39:51.500 know a lot

01:39:52.040 of people

01:39:52.400 whose lives

01:39:53.060 you have

01:39:53.380 personally

01:39:53.800 made better

01:39:54.440 because you're

01:39:55.680 my friend's

01:39:56.280 dad

01:39:56.560 so that

01:39:57.500 automatically

01:39:58.020 there's no

01:39:58.440 situation

01:39:58.920 where I'm

01:39:59.220 going to

01:39:59.340 be mean

01:39:59.820 to my

01:40:00.120 friend

01:40:00.300 or disrespectful

01:40:01.080 to my

01:40:01.580 friend's

01:40:01.900 dad

01:40:02.080 certainly

01:40:02.360 not in

01:40:02.680 public

01:40:03.080 I think

01:40:04.440 you are

01:40:04.780 in many

01:40:05.100 ways

01:40:05.360 self-made

01:40:06.060 the fact

01:40:07.300 that you

01:40:07.620 are a

01:40:07.960 successful

01:40:08.340 author

01:40:08.700 and you're

01:40:09.040 encouraging

01:40:09.460 a lot

01:40:09.820 of people

01:40:10.300 to you

01:40:11.500 know

01:40:11.600 get their

01:40:12.000 crap

01:40:12.240 together

01:40:12.660 and you're

01:40:13.580 not telling

01:40:13.960 them

01:40:14.160 one of the

01:40:14.900 things I

01:40:15.280 tell

01:40:15.580 and this

01:40:16.380 is something

01:40:16.680 you and

01:40:16.940 I have

01:40:17.240 in common

01:40:17.660 is

01:40:18.300 you're

01:40:18.720 not

01:40:18.900 the goal

01:40:19.800 isn't to

01:40:20.160 be a

01:40:20.360 perfect

01:40:20.600 person

01:40:21.100 but you

01:40:21.760 could

01:40:21.900 certainly

01:40:22.160 be a

01:40:22.440 better

01:40:22.600 person

01:40:22.960 tomorrow

01:40:23.340 than you

01:40:23.720 are

01:40:23.860 yesterday

01:40:24.280 and if

01:40:25.220 you have

01:40:25.600 that in

01:40:25.960 your mind

01:40:26.420 and you

01:40:26.620 could say

01:40:26.920 that objectively

01:40:27.520 with a

01:40:27.820 straight face

01:40:28.440 that goes

01:40:29.120 a long

01:40:29.880 way towards

01:40:30.440 fighting feelings

01:40:31.140 of anxiety

01:40:31.900 or depression

01:40:32.580 or hopelessness

01:40:33.820 because when

01:40:34.520 that voice

01:40:35.120 in your

01:40:35.420 brain

01:40:35.780 which we

01:40:36.200 all have

01:40:36.840 is telling

01:40:37.560 you

01:40:37.880 you're

01:40:38.760 never

01:40:38.960 going to

01:40:39.200 find

01:40:39.380 another

01:40:39.560 job

01:40:39.940 you're

01:40:40.300 never

01:40:40.440 going to

01:40:40.680 find

01:40:40.900 another

01:40:41.100 girlfriend

01:40:41.460 look at

01:40:42.080 you're

01:40:42.280 sitting

01:40:42.480 around

01:40:42.640 playing

01:40:42.820 video

01:40:43.040 games

01:40:43.340 you go

01:40:43.540 wait

01:40:43.700 a minute

01:40:44.000 I

01:40:44.760 went to

01:40:45.060 the gym

01:40:45.380 today

01:40:45.780 and I've

01:40:46.540 got the

01:40:46.860 numbers

01:40:47.220 here

01:40:47.620 that shows

01:40:48.260 I lifted

01:40:48.800 more than

01:40:49.200 last week

01:40:49.760 I'm

01:40:50.380 objectively

01:40:50.960 improved

01:40:51.780 in one

01:40:52.140 capacity

01:40:52.700 that is

01:40:53.420 enormous

01:40:53.780 people don't

01:40:54.440 appreciate

01:40:54.900 you're

01:40:55.860 absolutely

01:40:56.220 right about

01:40:56.720 that

01:40:57.000 I was

01:40:57.360 stopped

01:40:57.620 by three

01:40:58.100 separate

01:40:58.500 people

01:40:58.880 this week

01:40:59.480 who said

01:41:00.840 they thanked

01:41:01.900 me

01:41:02.180 and so

01:41:03.100 whenever

01:41:03.440 that happens

01:41:03.920 no one likes

01:41:04.780 a show off

01:41:05.300 Jordan

01:41:05.540 when that

01:41:06.920 happens

01:41:07.340 I always

01:41:09.180 ask people

01:41:09.880 what their

01:41:10.220 name is

01:41:10.700 to begin

01:41:11.240 with

01:41:11.480 because

01:41:11.800 they're

01:41:12.280 usually

01:41:12.660 they want

01:41:13.840 to be seen

01:41:14.220 well they don't

01:41:14.960 know if they

01:41:15.460 should interact

01:41:16.060 with me

01:41:16.380 they don't

01:41:16.660 know if

01:41:16.940 they're

01:41:17.020 being rude

01:41:17.640 they don't

01:41:18.660 want to

01:41:18.920 look stupid

01:41:19.520 you know

01:41:20.140 it's complicated

01:41:21.120 but if I

01:41:21.660 ask them

01:41:22.040 their name

01:41:22.480 and then

01:41:22.880 engage

01:41:23.200 then they

01:41:24.280 calm down

01:41:24.740 right away

01:41:25.120 and then

01:41:25.360 they'll

01:41:25.500 talk to

01:41:25.820 me

01:41:25.900 but what

01:41:26.200 I want

01:41:26.480 to find

01:41:26.780 out

01:41:26.980 always

01:41:27.180 if

01:41:27.360 someone

01:41:27.640 says

01:41:27.980 well you

01:41:28.700 were

01:41:28.860 helpful

01:41:29.320 I want

01:41:30.180 to find

01:41:30.520 out

01:41:30.760 okay well

01:41:31.380 exactly

01:41:32.200 why

01:41:32.620 right

01:41:33.360 what did

01:41:33.700 I do

01:41:34.620 that helped

01:41:35.860 you

01:41:36.140 because then

01:41:36.940 I can

01:41:37.200 do it

01:41:37.460 better

01:41:37.880 hypothetically

01:41:38.800 so

01:41:39.600 three people

01:41:40.640 told me

01:41:41.040 the same

01:41:41.420 thing

01:41:41.700 this week

01:41:42.220 which is

01:41:43.020 exactly

01:41:43.480 the point

01:41:43.900 that you

01:41:44.180 just made

01:41:46.380 restructured

01:41:46.980 their internal

01:41:47.680 reward system

01:41:48.580 they stopped

01:41:49.160 comparing

01:41:49.640 themselves

01:41:49.980 with other

01:41:50.540 people

01:41:50.980 well you

01:41:52.100 know stopped

01:41:52.840 but started

01:41:53.860 to stop

01:41:54.740 and they

01:41:56.320 started to

01:41:57.220 learn how to

01:41:57.780 reward themselves

01:41:58.580 for making

01:41:59.140 incremental

01:41:59.640 improvements

01:42:00.220 so that was

01:42:01.120 really cool

01:42:01.740 and I do

01:42:02.500 think that you

01:42:03.080 picked up

01:42:03.640 something there

01:42:04.560 that's absolutely

01:42:05.240 crucial

01:42:05.740 so but

01:42:07.180 then I could

01:42:07.800 also say

01:42:08.340 to you

01:42:08.520 well look

01:42:08.900 I'm also

01:42:09.360 the face

01:42:09.920 of the

01:42:10.260 professoriate

01:42:11.200 because

01:42:12.120 yeah I know

01:42:12.720 right right

01:42:14.020 so but

01:42:14.820 what that

01:42:15.800 so what

01:42:16.840 does that

01:42:17.200 signify

01:42:17.680 to you

01:42:18.140 does it

01:42:18.460 signify

01:42:18.820 that I'm

01:42:19.180 an outlier

01:42:19.700 or that

01:42:20.100 no it

01:42:20.800 just means

01:42:21.220 you'll be

01:42:21.460 the last

01:42:21.860 one up

01:42:22.140 against the

01:42:22.540 wall

01:42:22.800 no it

01:42:25.240 it's

01:42:26.160 in all

01:42:26.860 seriousness

01:42:27.400 one of the

01:42:28.180 points I

01:42:28.660 have made

01:42:29.140 recently

01:42:29.600 is that

01:42:30.640 as awful

01:42:31.420 as corporate

01:42:32.460 journalists are

01:42:33.220 and as

01:42:33.580 humorless

01:42:34.140 and self

01:42:34.600 righteous

01:42:34.940 and pompous

01:42:35.680 they are

01:42:36.300 still better

01:42:36.760 by all

01:42:37.120 these metrics

01:42:37.600 than university

01:42:38.180 professors

01:42:38.640 and I'm

01:42:38.960 not speaking

01:42:39.360 about you

01:42:39.660 personally

01:42:40.060 but you

01:42:41.220 can

01:42:41.540 if you

01:42:42.220 look at

01:42:42.640 the thing

01:42:43.280 that Twitter

01:42:43.800 did so

01:42:44.460 amazingly

01:42:44.940 is that

01:42:46.140 back in

01:42:46.560 and I'm

01:42:46.940 thinking of

01:42:47.300 someone

01:42:47.500 specifically

01:42:48.000 who I'll

01:42:49.600 mention

01:42:49.980 in a second

01:42:50.500 back in

01:42:51.420 the day

01:42:51.900 you would

01:42:52.720 think I'm

01:42:53.440 a Harvard

01:42:53.860 law professor

01:42:54.700 that if I

01:42:55.980 don't even

01:42:56.300 know who

01:42:56.560 this person

01:42:57.000 is that's

01:42:57.400 going to

01:42:57.560 tell me

01:42:57.840 certain

01:42:58.080 information

01:42:58.500 this is

01:42:58.940 one of

01:42:59.140 the highest

01:42:59.440 quality

01:42:59.820 minds

01:43:00.120 in America

01:43:00.600 this person

01:43:01.520 knows his

01:43:02.000 industry

01:43:02.360 inside and

01:43:02.880 out

01:43:03.120 if he

01:43:04.020 tells me

01:43:04.400 something

01:43:04.720 I can

01:43:05.240 take it

01:43:05.520 to the

01:43:05.740 bank

01:43:06.000 and that's

01:43:06.700 actually

01:43:06.960 true

01:43:07.240 because

01:43:07.560 Harvard

01:43:07.880 the Harvard

01:43:08.300 law faculty

01:43:08.880 is making

01:43:09.400 the law

01:43:09.680 in America

01:43:10.100 far more

01:43:10.600 than Congress

01:43:11.160 because it's

01:43:11.540 their interpretation

01:43:12.140 and those

01:43:12.800 people

01:43:13.000 that are

01:43:13.160 trained

01:43:13.420 then you

01:43:14.300 look at

01:43:14.960 Lawrence

01:43:15.400 Tribe

01:43:15.840 on Twitter

01:43:17.280 and you

01:43:18.040 look that

01:43:18.600 he is

01:43:19.460 tweeting

01:43:19.860 exactly

01:43:21.340 verbatim

01:43:22.320 the same

01:43:23.160 kind of

01:43:23.580 miserable

01:43:24.060 anti-Trump

01:43:24.820 things that

01:43:25.580 your spinster

01:43:26.280 aunt is

01:43:26.720 tweeting

01:43:26.980 and you

01:43:27.400 realize

01:43:27.680 wait a

01:43:28.040 minute

01:43:28.180 this

01:43:28.780 emperor

01:43:29.100 has no

01:43:29.620 clothes

01:43:30.180 this person

01:43:31.180 might be

01:43:31.500 very bright

01:43:32.180 which there's

01:43:32.620 no question

01:43:33.120 he's brilliant

01:43:33.640 there's no

01:43:34.280 question he

01:43:34.800 knows the

01:43:35.200 law inside

01:43:35.760 and out

01:43:36.140 but in

01:43:36.700 terms that

01:43:37.140 this person

01:43:37.640 should be

01:43:38.020 an object

01:43:38.540 of

01:43:38.860 veterans

01:43:39.220 and this

01:43:40.660 is like

01:43:40.980 one of

01:43:41.200 the great

01:43:41.540 minds

01:43:41.860 of all

01:43:42.160 time

01:43:42.520 it's

01:43:42.900 a ridiculous

01:43:43.880 absurdity

01:43:44.540 when you

01:43:45.060 see them

01:43:45.400 give an

01:43:45.680 opportunity

01:43:46.020 to express

01:43:46.580 themselves

01:43:46.960 in public

01:43:47.500 okay so

01:43:54.420 I would

01:43:54.940 say the

01:43:55.280 emperor

01:43:55.520 has some

01:43:56.100 clothes

01:43:56.680 you know

01:43:57.680 because I've

01:43:58.220 met I

01:43:58.780 worked at

01:43:59.160 Harvard for

01:43:59.640 quite a long

01:44:00.140 time and

01:44:00.580 many of the

01:44:01.140 people I

01:44:01.580 met there

01:44:01.960 were were

01:44:02.700 genuinely

01:44:03.720 estimable

01:44:04.540 and I've

01:44:05.100 worked in

01:44:05.400 lots of

01:44:05.800 clothes

01:44:05.940 okay okay

01:44:06.820 well it's

01:44:07.780 the differentiation

01:44:08.720 here that's

01:44:09.580 of such

01:44:10.260 critical

01:44:10.700 importance

01:44:11.320 you know

01:44:11.680 and

01:44:11.940 Pinker's

01:44:18.340 The Blank

01:44:18.720 Slate is a

01:44:19.260 book everyone

01:44:19.640 should read

01:44:20.160 I say that

01:44:21.580 without any

01:44:22.100 asterisks

01:44:22.700 it's an

01:44:23.380 amazing

01:44:23.840 accomplishment

01:44:24.380 and you

01:44:27.540 don't go

01:44:28.000 beyond that

01:44:28.540 and say

01:44:28.780 well look at

01:44:29.260 the structure

01:44:29.700 that gave

01:44:30.140 rise to

01:44:30.700 that

01:44:31.020 and I

01:44:32.040 guess

01:44:32.240 it's

01:44:32.460 the

01:44:32.580 that book

01:44:34.180 is not

01:44:34.420 a function

01:44:34.780 of Harvard

01:44:35.240 that book

01:44:35.700 is a

01:44:35.980 function

01:44:36.280 of him

01:44:36.880 and his

01:44:37.620 ideas

01:44:38.040 and his

01:44:38.420 work

01:44:38.860 and there's

01:44:39.640 no

01:44:39.900 no it's

01:44:41.640 no it's

01:44:42.060 also a

01:44:42.480 function of

01:44:42.940 Harvard

01:44:43.300 one of the

01:44:44.200 things that I

01:44:44.820 really noticed

01:44:45.460 about Harvard

01:44:46.160 the psych department

01:44:47.480 in particular

01:44:48.340 when I was there

01:44:49.220 was that

01:44:50.120 it was

01:44:51.440 like

01:44:52.200 this is odd

01:44:53.300 but one of the

01:44:54.200 things I've

01:44:54.620 noticed among

01:44:55.420 many academics

01:44:56.340 is contempt

01:44:57.280 for books

01:44:57.980 interestingly

01:44:59.140 is that right

01:44:59.760 yes it's far

01:45:00.880 far more common

01:45:02.040 than you would

01:45:02.560 ever think

01:45:03.200 but that

01:45:04.360 wasn't true

01:45:04.960 at Harvard

01:45:05.480 what if

01:45:06.420 you were a

01:45:06.840 professor there

01:45:07.460 in psychology

01:45:08.080 and you

01:45:08.440 wrote books

01:45:09.180 that was

01:45:10.160 valued

01:45:11.440 genuinely

01:45:12.160 valued

01:45:12.620 the people

01:45:13.300 that I

01:45:13.640 associated

01:45:14.180 with there

01:45:14.900 and that

01:45:16.200 that was

01:45:16.760 the bulk

01:45:17.100 of the

01:45:17.360 department

01:45:17.760 like they

01:45:18.620 were

01:45:18.940 by and

01:45:20.060 large

01:45:20.400 as genuine

01:45:22.180 an article

01:45:22.680 as I had

01:45:23.160 come across

01:45:23.780 and so

01:45:24.980 the

01:45:25.580 and the

01:45:26.180 institution

01:45:26.660 actually did

01:45:27.400 now look

01:45:27.900 I'm not

01:45:28.460 happy with

01:45:29.060 what's happened

01:45:29.580 to the

01:45:29.860 universities

01:45:30.260 at all

01:45:30.900 I'm not

01:45:31.720 I think

01:45:32.800 it's

01:45:33.320 appalling

01:45:34.660 it's

01:45:35.140 appalling

01:45:35.620 but

01:45:36.400 when I

01:45:37.500 was there

01:45:38.240 in the

01:45:38.500 90s

01:45:39.020 the institution

01:45:41.080 was set up

01:45:42.060 so that

01:45:42.500 people like

01:45:43.040 Pinker

01:45:43.460 could exist

01:45:44.620 and be

01:45:45.020 rewarded

01:45:45.500 and even

01:45:46.320 more importantly

01:45:47.040 the institution

01:45:47.760 was set up

01:45:48.540 at that point

01:45:49.140 to actually

01:45:49.680 benefit the

01:45:50.340 undergraduates

01:45:51.000 so the

01:45:51.620 hierarchy of

01:45:52.380 concern

01:45:52.900 was the

01:45:53.780 undergraduates

01:45:54.600 now you

01:45:55.040 could be

01:45:55.320 cynical

01:45:55.640 and say

01:45:56.020 well Harvard

01:45:56.480 treated its

01:45:57.180 18 year olds

01:45:57.980 like potentially

01:45:59.440 generous

01:46:00.200 baby

01:46:00.720 40 year old

01:46:01.860 millionaires

01:46:02.700 I don't think

01:46:03.480 it was just

01:46:03.760 that

01:46:04.000 it wasn't

01:46:04.600 just

01:46:04.800 it wasn't

01:46:05.300 just that

01:46:05.720 it wasn't

01:46:06.260 and after

01:46:07.320 them was

01:46:07.840 the senior

01:46:08.340 professors

01:46:08.940 the full

01:46:09.500 tenured

01:46:09.860 so it

01:46:11.280 was an

01:46:13.480 institution

01:46:13.940 that had

01:46:14.440 its ducks

01:46:14.940 in order

01:46:15.380 as far as

01:46:15.920 I was

01:46:16.200 concerned

01:46:16.480 and it

01:46:16.740 was really

01:46:17.100 quite a

01:46:17.620 privilege

01:46:17.900 to work

01:46:18.480 there

01:46:18.680 as a

01:46:18.980 consequence

01:46:19.400 and a

01:46:20.160 tremendous

01:46:20.540 amount

01:46:20.920 of academic

01:46:22.420 and intellectual

01:46:23.160 freedom

01:46:23.620 within that

01:46:24.320 structure

01:46:24.760 and that

01:46:25.120 was built

01:46:25.560 into the

01:46:25.980 whole

01:46:26.160 structure

01:46:26.600 so it

01:46:27.640 was a

01:46:28.440 genuinely

01:46:28.940 respectable

01:46:30.900 and remarkable

01:46:31.640 institution

01:46:32.300 and it

01:46:32.800 did a

01:46:33.100 great job

01:46:33.740 of finding

01:46:34.720 students

01:46:36.280 who were

01:46:36.820 of incredibly

01:46:38.160 high caliber

01:46:38.900 you know

01:46:39.760 like in the

01:46:40.300 typical

01:46:40.640 undergraduate

01:46:41.200 Harvard

01:46:41.620 class

01:46:42.160 a third

01:46:42.600 of the

01:46:42.860 class

01:46:43.200 would be

01:46:43.720 made of

01:46:44.720 individuals

01:46:45.140 who were

01:46:45.480 as smart

01:46:45.880 as anybody

01:46:46.420 you'd ever

01:46:46.860 meet

01:46:47.220 you know

01:46:48.220 so

01:46:49.480 this whole

01:46:50.980 conservative

01:46:51.600 idea

01:46:52.080 that people

01:46:52.840 who they

01:46:53.180 don't like

01:46:53.760 are also

01:46:55.140 dumb

01:46:55.620 is really

01:46:56.640 one of the

01:46:57.180 stupidest

01:46:57.780 concepts

01:46:58.780 in contemporary

01:46:59.500 discourse

01:46:59.920 it's a lot

01:47:00.580 easier to

01:47:01.080 train a smart

01:47:01.760 dog than

01:47:02.240 it is to

01:47:02.520 train a dumb

01:47:03.040 one

01:47:03.280 and many

01:47:04.120 of the

01:47:04.340 people who

01:47:04.820 are putting

01:47:05.320 over some

01:47:06.100 of these

01:47:06.420 extremely

01:47:07.140 more level

01:47:07.640 and nefarious

01:47:08.200 ideas

01:47:08.680 they're very

01:47:09.920 very bright

01:47:10.500 there's no

01:47:10.840 question about

01:47:11.460 it

01:47:11.940 but my

01:47:12.440 respect for

01:47:13.500 thinker

01:47:13.880 they weren't

01:47:13.900 just bright

01:47:14.380 they were

01:47:14.780 also

01:47:15.400 ethically

01:47:16.920 admirable

01:47:17.560 in a deep

01:47:18.980 sense

01:47:19.360 and you see

01:47:19.820 that with

01:47:20.220 Pinker

01:47:20.700 say

01:47:20.940 and you see

01:47:21.280 that with

01:47:21.600 Jonathan

01:47:22.000 Haidt

01:47:22.400 who's a

01:47:23.040 centrist

01:47:23.460 a modern

01:47:23.920 centrist

01:47:24.380 but you

01:47:25.160 know

01:47:25.340 he's a

01:47:25.900 tough

01:47:26.100 character

01:47:26.520 he stands

01:47:27.180 up for

01:47:27.480 what he

01:47:27.720 believes

01:47:27.980 in

01:47:28.100 he makes

01:47:28.400 coherent

01:47:28.940 and cogent

01:47:29.500 arguments

01:47:29.900 and he's

01:47:30.760 no pushover

01:47:31.520 I praise

01:47:32.820 Haidt very

01:47:33.300 heavily

01:47:33.600 I know

01:47:33.900 you do

01:47:34.180 I know

01:47:34.500 well that's

01:47:35.020 partly why

01:47:35.540 I'm

01:47:36.060 you know

01:47:36.420 taking this

01:47:36.940 apart

01:47:37.200 because

01:47:37.500 I mean

01:47:38.080 there's

01:47:40.860 this element

01:47:41.460 of the

01:47:41.920 anarchy

01:47:43.280 philosophy

01:47:43.880 that is

01:47:45.300 I suppose

01:47:45.880 evident in

01:47:46.480 4chan as

01:47:47.140 well

01:47:47.380 but in

01:47:47.980 your writing

01:47:48.400 that it

01:47:49.020 seems to

01:47:49.460 me to

01:47:49.900 have the

01:47:50.740 danger of

01:47:51.440 producing a

01:47:52.700 premature

01:47:53.100 cynicism

01:47:53.900 and

01:47:54.660 oh I

01:47:55.720 wouldn't call

01:47:56.240 it cynicism

01:47:56.860 okay

01:47:57.420 I mean

01:47:57.840 cynicism

01:47:58.300 I'm a big

01:47:59.700 fan of Camus

01:48:00.440 and Camus

01:48:01.540 Albert Camus

01:48:02.120 the French

01:48:02.560 novelist and

01:48:03.440 philosopher

01:48:03.780 he regarded

01:48:04.460 cynicism as

01:48:05.320 the enemy

01:48:05.800 I completely

01:48:06.780 agree

01:48:07.220 I think it's

01:48:08.160 important to

01:48:08.720 just because

01:48:09.400 an enemy

01:48:10.120 exists

01:48:10.820 just because

01:48:11.720 malevolent actors

01:48:12.620 exist

01:48:13.020 even if you

01:48:13.460 don't want to

01:48:13.840 say it's the

01:48:14.300 Harvard graduating

01:48:14.920 class which I'm

01:48:15.520 not saying

01:48:16.020 that in no

01:48:17.100 way means

01:48:17.800 that human

01:48:18.340 beings are

01:48:19.000 inherently evil

01:48:19.940 or inherently

01:48:20.860 corrupt

01:48:21.380 it just means

01:48:22.320 that there's a

01:48:22.800 population

01:48:23.300 and you have

01:48:23.760 to you know

01:48:24.300 just like an

01:48:24.840 infection work

01:48:25.560 your way around

01:48:26.160 whereas so I

01:48:28.260 think cynicism

01:48:28.900 is a very

01:48:29.680 very very

01:48:30.560 just it's

01:48:32.960 it's the

01:48:33.820 cost of

01:48:34.260 cynicism on an

01:48:35.020 individual level

01:48:35.700 cannot be

01:48:36.360 overstated

01:48:36.860 it's the worst

01:48:39.060 yes and

01:48:39.840 and and one

01:48:40.800 of the things

01:48:41.220 I fought for

01:48:41.980 in this book

01:48:42.620 and I fight

01:48:43.140 for it in when

01:48:44.340 I do podcasts

01:48:45.060 and social media

01:48:45.840 is there are so

01:48:47.120 many people who

01:48:48.260 think it's hopeless

01:48:49.160 and then they

01:48:49.980 give up and then

01:48:50.800 they're just kind

01:48:51.420 of it becomes

01:48:52.640 their mindset

01:48:53.380 whereas the point

01:48:54.280 is if there's

01:48:55.420 any chance that

01:48:56.360 you're gonna come

01:48:57.240 out ahead you

01:48:58.340 better stand on

01:48:59.140 your feet and go

01:48:59.700 out swinging and

01:49:00.840 even if you lose

01:49:01.940 you're gonna go

01:49:02.700 down at least

01:49:03.360 knowing I did

01:49:04.440 everything in my

01:49:05.100 power and you're

01:49:05.920 going to have

01:49:06.280 happiness pride and

01:49:07.560 self-esteem as a

01:49:08.260 consequence so I

01:49:09.700 I reject all

01:49:11.380 forms of cynicism

01:49:12.340 and and if that

01:49:13.700 is what I am

01:49:14.920 implying then I'm

01:49:16.400 doing something

01:49:16.920 wrong well I'm

01:49:18.260 I'm look I'm not

01:49:19.660 saying that my

01:49:20.660 reading of what

01:49:21.500 you wrote or or

01:49:22.700 what you're doing

01:49:23.280 is canonical I

01:49:24.680 mean you're you're

01:49:25.260 not the only

01:49:25.780 anarchist in the

01:49:26.580 world after all and

01:49:27.660 so I'm not going

01:49:28.600 to dump all of

01:49:29.740 this on you but

01:49:31.100 you know the

01:49:34.320 reason that I

01:49:35.380 have been

01:49:35.840 concentrating on

01:49:36.660 people's individual

01:49:37.480 development I

01:49:38.900 think well

01:49:39.640 apart from the

01:49:40.460 fact that I'm a

01:49:41.020 psychologist and

01:49:41.840 and I think

01:49:43.020 there's also less

01:49:43.720 danger in that in

01:49:44.700 some sense because

01:49:45.480 the revolution just

01:49:46.500 occurs within you

01:49:47.540 know and sure

01:49:48.140 people who don't

01:49:49.380 want your goddamn

01:49:50.300 revolution aren't

01:49:51.560 aren't forced into

01:49:52.480 it I I guess

01:49:55.220 by concentrating

01:49:57.960 see you said

01:50:00.240 that you you

01:50:01.280 implied that I'm

01:50:02.260 not the corporation

01:50:03.220 and that you're not

01:50:04.120 the corporation but

01:50:04.980 you see I actually

01:50:05.720 don't believe that's

01:50:06.580 true I believe that I

01:50:07.820 am in fact the

01:50:08.660 corporation and

01:50:09.400 that I mean I'm

01:50:10.280 even the evil

01:50:11.040 corporation and I'm

01:50:12.580 so tangled up in

01:50:13.420 that world like we

01:50:14.820 all are that we

01:50:15.620 bear responsibility

01:50:17.080 for that fact and

01:50:19.820 so and so I think

01:50:21.460 well what do you do

01:50:22.040 about that and it

01:50:23.040 seems to me that you

01:50:23.840 try to get your act

01:50:24.640 together on a

01:50:25.240 personal level just

01:50:26.740 to identify the

01:50:28.860 enemy within which is

01:50:30.600 the right place to

01:50:31.380 start and then work

01:50:32.980 outward from that but

01:50:34.580 your critique is

01:50:35.900 basically a social

01:50:36.900 critique as far as I

01:50:37.980 can tell that you're

01:50:38.800 starting with the

01:50:39.640 institutions themselves

01:50:40.880 even though it's not

01:50:42.000 the institutions

01:50:42.740 exactly it's the

01:50:43.720 corruption of the

01:50:44.520 institutions I

01:50:46.280 but corruption it

01:50:47.360 makes it seem like

01:50:48.400 this is something that

01:50:49.240 can be salvaged

01:50:50.180 whereas in my view

01:50:51.180 these institutions are

01:50:52.380 inherently malevolent I

01:50:54.580 know that's your view

01:50:55.500 but they're no more

01:50:56.400 inherently malevolent than

01:50:57.660 individuals are there

01:51:00.100 are plenty of

01:51:00.580 individuals who are

01:51:01.280 inherently malevolent

01:51:02.240 they go into politics

01:51:05.120 well not everyone who

01:51:07.000 goes into politics is

01:51:08.120 inherently malevolent you

01:51:09.440 know I've met with

01:51:10.420 many many politicians

01:51:11.760 and I'll give you an

01:51:12.660 example because that

01:51:13.760 just means they're good

01:51:14.340 at passing no no it

01:51:15.660 doesn't just mean that

01:51:16.800 I had a dinner in

01:51:18.300 Washington with a group

01:51:20.340 of Democrats and

01:51:21.340 Republicans it was part

01:51:22.560 of an attempt to you

01:51:24.000 know they never talk to

01:51:24.980 each other they don't

01:51:27.180 have time like I would

01:51:29.000 not want the job of an

01:51:30.340 American no they don't

01:51:31.580 their time is so

01:51:32.520 stop stop no no no

01:51:33.700 they're not they're not

01:51:34.400 they're not running an

01:51:35.680 ambulance they're not an

01:51:37.120 ER doctor it's just not

01:51:38.760 a priority for them they

01:51:39.880 have time give me a

01:51:40.820 break well they just have

01:51:41.820 to just take stuff don't

01:51:43.160 call back your lobbyist

01:51:44.220 and call back call they

01:51:45.220 have are you kidding me

01:51:46.300 you're telling what people

01:51:47.860 if there's one thing

01:51:48.680 people in Washington have

01:51:49.560 it's time things go at a

01:51:50.620 glacial pace look look

01:51:52.160 you you you're making a

01:51:54.200 an attribution of of

01:51:56.540 corruption to complex

01:51:57.760 structures and so I'll

01:51:58.900 accept that but I don't

01:52:00.260 use the word corruption

01:52:01.120 but go ahead well pick

01:52:03.320 a word that pick a word

01:52:04.700 that's more suitable

01:52:05.400 because I'll I'd be happy

01:52:06.560 to use it if it's more

01:52:07.420 suitable malevolence

01:52:08.640 depravity malevolence

01:52:10.200 malevolence yeah fine

01:52:11.420 fine power and

01:52:13.200 malevolence okay well

01:52:14.580 when you're a

01:52:15.120 congressman and you're

01:52:16.680 tossed into the

01:52:17.560 congress yeah the

01:52:19.260 structure produces such

01:52:21.900 an intense surround for

01:52:24.260 you that it's extremely

01:52:26.120 difficult not to just go

01:52:28.420 along with it especially

01:52:29.300 when you're new and you

01:52:30.140 don't know what the hell

01:52:30.820 you're doing so you end

01:52:32.280 up spending a tremendous

01:52:33.260 amount of your time for

01:52:34.320 example a disproportionate

01:52:36.300 amount of your time even

01:52:37.900 though you hate it in an

01:52:39.400 office that isn't yours in

01:52:40.900 some warehouse phoning

01:52:42.160 people for money and that's

01:52:44.680 like half your time and you

01:52:46.040 think well you don't have to

01:52:47.060 do that it's like well you

01:52:48.680 kind of have to because all

01:52:50.420 the others you have to

01:52:51.300 right okay so in any case

01:52:53.560 they don't end up talking

01:52:55.180 across the aisle for for for

01:52:57.640 and their time is very

01:52:58.760 tightly scheduled and we

01:53:01.880 brought them together to

01:53:03.260 have them talk and I

01:53:05.180 wanted to do a bunch of

01:53:06.260 that but my health

01:53:07.260 collapsed and couldn't do

01:53:08.660 any more of it but in any

01:53:09.660 case each of them went

01:53:11.140 around the room and said

01:53:12.760 why they went into

01:53:13.760 politics they were these

01:53:15.280 were mostly younger

01:53:16.200 congress people and if you

01:53:18.180 would have been there

01:53:19.240 there's two things that

01:53:20.620 would have impressed you and

01:53:22.080 surprised you I think one

01:53:24.020 would be how common the

01:53:25.920 stories for motivation were

01:53:27.340 across the participants

01:53:29.500 regardless of their party

01:53:30.560 affiliation and the second

01:53:32.980 would be how believably and

01:53:36.060 genuinely sincere they were

01:53:38.100 in that narrative you

01:53:39.900 wouldn't have walked away

01:53:40.880 with the with the assumption

01:53:42.400 that those people were any

01:53:43.520 more corrupt than people you

01:53:44.940 admire and respect that's

01:53:47.180 what makes them good at being

01:53:48.260 corrupt because they can pass

01:53:49.940 well but I would say the same

01:53:51.380 about all of us I I'm not

01:53:53.780 voting to have people sent

01:53:55.720 overseas to slaughter

01:53:57.020 innocent human beings well

01:53:58.740 so I agree with you vote I

01:54:00.780 don't believe in voting well

01:54:02.080 I agree with you don't vote

01:54:03.780 I agree with you completely

01:54:06.840 that we should be skeptical of

01:54:09.480 people and their motivations I

01:54:11.380 do not agree that if someone

01:54:13.140 is nice to their family I have

01:54:15.160 no doubt that all these

01:54:16.000 politicians adore their family

01:54:17.580 that they have genuine

01:54:18.640 concerns that I'm sure they

01:54:20.200 said they want to make a world

01:54:21.500 a better place if you are

01:54:23.240 comfortable using force to

01:54:25.940 send armed men to harm

01:54:28.000 innocent people I don't care

01:54:29.800 if you're nice or have good

01:54:30.980 motivations you're a bad

01:54:32.540 human being so I just I just

01:54:37.300 finished a podcast with Jocko

01:54:39.000 Willink okay it released today

01:54:41.440 and he did all that like really

01:54:45.100 and it isn't obvious to me that

01:54:47.680 he's a bad person in fact Jocko

01:54:49.980 was a Jocko was in politics how

01:54:51.780 was he no but he was a soldier

01:54:53.140 and he was a commander well I

01:54:55.340 mean he made decisions that you

01:54:57.160 know he he was a politician in

01:54:59.260 some sense because he had to make

01:55:01.180 strategic decisions about how

01:55:03.120 policies were going to play out on

01:55:05.260 the actual battlefield so because

01:55:07.000 he was a commander you know there's

01:55:09.000 a political element to his job

01:55:10.860 because it's nested inside the

01:55:12.740 democracy and he is making

01:55:14.000 decisions and so you know and I

01:55:17.900 I find it and it is perplexing to

01:55:20.420 some degree it's very difficult to

01:55:21.900 walk away from a conversation with

01:55:23.400 Jocko and not think anything other

01:55:25.100 than that's a really admirable

01:55:26.480 person and it does tangle us up in

01:55:28.720 this problem that you just

01:55:29.980 described which is well well what

01:55:32.040 about force and what about the army

01:55:34.660 and what about the police for that

01:55:36.440 matter but it isn't them you know

01:55:39.280 it's us again it's the same I'm not

01:55:42.000 a cop I'm not a cop it is them I'm

01:55:44.640 not a cop I would never put my hands

01:55:47.360 on a peaceful person and try to force

01:55:50.180 them to come with me in my car I would

01:55:52.340 never club an old man in the head

01:55:54.380 simply because he's in a park I would

01:55:56.980 never force people to be defenseless in

01:55:59.720 their own home by enforcing unlawful

01:56:02.640 gun right laws but so yeah would you

01:56:05.060 stand up for someone who is being beat

01:56:06.960 in public it depends on the context

01:56:09.840 fair enough look are there

01:56:11.620 circumstances under which you could

01:56:13.360 imagine doing that oh I was just

01:56:15.980 gonna say yeah like listen if it's one

01:56:17.620 guy versus 50 cops me jumping in is not

01:56:20.140 going to help him right but if yeah

01:56:21.860 there's absolutely circumstances I

01:56:23.380 would I would do that not even a

01:56:24.780 question I've done it to

01:56:25.820 circumstances that you would use

01:56:27.420 force

01:56:27.880 I don't I don't know well I don't

01:56:30.860 because I'm a small guy you know I

01:56:32.120 mean I'm not trying to be glib but in

01:56:33.460 all seriousness like you know I'm

01:56:35.380 short and I'm small so if it could be

01:56:38.160 if there's here's something that has

01:56:40.060 happened this is not particularly

01:56:41.640 courageous on my part if you have two

01:56:43.420 guys who are getting into it and get

01:56:44.680 into each other's face and you know

01:56:46.060 they're the posturing thing where

01:56:47.580 they're about to fight I have been in

01:56:49.460 between and be like come on step away

01:56:50.760 so in that case yes but in terms of

01:56:52.860 having to use a gun or club someone to

01:56:55.500 death thankfully I've never been in a

01:56:57.500 position where I've had to make that

01:56:58.600 decision and I do not begrudge people

01:57:00.640 having to make that decision either it's

01:57:02.140 not an easy choice there's no there's no

01:57:04.080 good answers in that situation but if

01:57:06.600 you take tax money and as a result of

01:57:09.420 your job you're going to be harming

01:57:12.120 innocent people in traumatic ways I do

01:57:15.360 not agree you should sleep easy at night

01:57:17.420 so you know people have criticized me I

01:57:29.300 suppose for concentrating on individual

01:57:32.240 development moral development say well

01:57:34.220 there's all these global social

01:57:36.220 problems that are best addressed at a

01:57:38.140 sociological level and you know who the

01:57:40.560 hell cares if you clean up your room

01:57:42.080 when there's systemic racism and and I

01:57:44.620 think well if you're going to address

01:57:47.080 systemic racism then you better have a

01:57:49.720 clear head while you do it and if you

01:57:52.060 can't get the simplest parts of your

01:57:53.920 life let's say in order well maybe that's

01:57:55.960 what you should be concentrating on it's

01:57:57.320 not like I don't think that people should

01:57:58.740 go off and solve even more complex

01:58:00.580 problems I mean

01:58:01.740 there's an element there seems to be an

01:58:07.060 element of externalization in the

01:58:09.540 criticism of power structures that I

01:58:11.780 find psychologically counterproductive

01:58:15.660 you know because I wouldn't look when I

01:58:17.860 studied the horrors of the 20th century

01:58:20.780 the Holocaust and the Stalinist horrors and

01:58:23.380 I always imagined myself as the

01:58:26.300 perpetrator instead of the victim you

01:58:29.120 know because the question for me was

01:58:31.120 how it was that we could do this that we

01:58:34.640 could do this to each other that we are

01:58:36.540 doing it to each other and I mean we and

01:58:38.580 I do also think the reason I've got away

01:58:40.500 with my finger shaking moralizing let's

01:58:42.680 say to the degree that I have got away

01:58:44.820 with it is because I do include myself in

01:58:47.360 the target of moral reprobates who could

01:58:49.580 use some improvement and I see the like

01:58:52.580 the emphasis I don't see that there's

01:58:54.800 much of a distinction between the

01:58:57.000 emphasis that you place on a broad scale

01:58:59.740 social critique assuming corrupt power is

01:59:04.300 the what fundamental organizing principle

01:59:07.160 that large organizations adopt to

01:59:10.060 organize and the same thing that leads to

01:59:13.080 identity politics on the left I don't

01:59:16.060 think every organization is inherently built

01:59:17.900 in corruption I don't think Tropicana is

01:59:20.120 built in corruption okay so okay so how

01:59:22.700 all right so how do you make the

01:59:23.980 distinction Tropicana doesn't use force

01:59:27.000 and doesn't try Tropicana says look my

01:59:30.580 our orange juice is the best freshly

01:59:32.320 squeezed they get it to your store at a

01:59:34.580 cheap product at a cheap price I'm

01:59:35.980 assuming it's cheap I haven't bought in a

01:59:37.360 long time you are choose you're free to

01:59:39.300 choose it or not as you want your

01:59:41.460 Tropicana doesn't try to make you out to

01:59:43.360 be a bad person if you prefer apple juice

01:59:45.780 or soda or water right these other

01:59:48.200 organizations are playing mind games with

01:59:50.640 people okay so it's for deceit it's at

01:59:52.860 least the use of this course you're

01:59:54.960 objecting to and let me speak to

01:59:56.840 something you said earlier it's different

01:59:58.040 for you and your I was born in Lvov in

02:00:00.020 western Ukraine I was you know we came

02:00:02.520 here when I was one and a half but I was

02:00:03.800 raised in a household when we spoke

02:00:05.140 Russian I'm Jewish that was one of the

02:00:07.600 reasons I fought so hard when I wrote my

02:00:09.880 North Korean book and why I've been

02:00:11.220 talking about North Korea as an issue

02:00:12.880 because my family was the victim you

02:00:15.480 know being Jewish under Stalin you know

02:00:17.880 during that period these are really two

02:00:20.200 big bullets that we dodged and one of

02:00:22.460 the reasons I went there to write about

02:00:23.940 and why I talk about it so constantly is

02:00:26.200 because there were for the grace of God I

02:00:27.780 could be a North Korean concentration camp

02:00:29.360 right now so I think there is I don't

02:00:31.280 know if there's a duty but certainly if I'm

02:00:34.920 in a position to you know advocate for

02:00:37.640 people who are not in a position to

02:00:39.440 really speak for themselves and these are

02:00:41.220 the people who no one disagrees has it the

02:00:44.560 worst no one disagrees that whether you're

02:00:46.660 conservative Trudeau Trump Biden whatever

02:00:49.560 that we need more liberalism North Korea

02:00:51.900 we need more human rights we need these

02:00:53.680 people treated with a certain modicum of

02:00:55.260 decency it's just unconscionable I'm like

02:00:58.560 I'm gonna do something about it in my very

02:01:00.360 very little way so I think it's different

02:01:03.440 given your and my background how you're

02:01:06.320 approaching these horrors of the past

02:01:07.820 because that was my grandma and my

02:01:09.940 grandparents well I I is there a

02:01:14.300 difference I don't I guess I it isn't

02:01:17.540 clear to me exactly what the difference is

02:01:19.340 I mean you're well you're objecting to the

02:01:21.340 use of deceit and power and sure and and

02:01:24.960 violence though I was I would not have been

02:01:27.000 in a position to have been that Nazi quite

02:01:28.900 literally I wouldn't have been in a

02:01:30.640 position to be that GPU agent and one of the

02:01:37.760 reasons I am an anarchist is I do not feel

02:01:40.120 comfortable tell forcing another person to

02:01:42.860 live as I see fit I just think you know

02:01:46.020 who am I yes well I think look I I think

02:01:48.740 that's an admirable moral principle it isn't

02:01:50.780 obvious to me that the logical conclusion

02:01:52.600 of that is anarch is anarchism I suppose

02:01:54.940 that would be my objection I mean and I also I

02:01:57.980 do believe that degenerate power structures

02:02:01.620 exist and they use deceit and that that's

02:02:05.020 reprehensible and should be fought in in every

02:02:07.800 possible way I mean my sense has been that

02:02:11.900 there isn't anything more powerful to fight

02:02:15.220 that than than spoken truth I agree and

02:02:19.700 humor well because they're using yeah it's

02:02:22.740 very rare go ahead talk about you they're

02:02:25.280 using manipulative tactics in order to

02:02:28.140 further goal as opposed to rational

02:02:29.760 discourse as you and I having we're putting

02:02:31.460 our cards on the table if you're using

02:02:33.280 things like deceptive editing and you know

02:02:35.660 characterizing things out of context I am

02:02:38.300 you're not owed a rational fair response

02:02:40.860 you're not acting as a decent fair actor so

02:02:44.600 humor is very useful in this mechanism

02:02:47.000 because it explodes not only the particular

02:02:49.800 thing you're saying but your role as

02:02:52.480 someone who's worthy of courtesy respect and

02:02:56.360 decorum when I interview when I was

02:03:00.520 interviewed by Kathy Newman there was a point

02:03:04.660 where I asked her I guess why she felt she

02:03:07.940 had the moral right to offend me during she

02:03:10.460 was questioning me and it stopped her the

02:03:13.040 question stopped her and that was when the

02:03:14.980 person emerged from the corporate shell

02:03:17.120 let's say or the ambitious the corporate

02:03:20.020 shell slash ambitious persona because that's

02:03:23.800 what I was talking to what wasn't right a

02:03:25.840 person and she emerged and she was set back

02:03:28.900 you know and I had a second or two to think

02:03:31.760 then about how I would respond to the fact

02:03:34.480 that her mask dropped momentarily and I said

02:03:37.860 gotcha and it was a calculated risk it was

02:03:40.920 supposed to be funny and I do believe that

02:03:42.560 people responded to it as if it was funny

02:03:44.420 and I thought well is this a time is this a

02:03:46.860 place where I can drop a joke is this a

02:03:48.720 place where I can say something and I wasn't

02:03:51.180 thinking about it strategically precisely I

02:03:53.260 was thinking about it more in terms of its

02:03:54.920 hopefully in terms of its ethical

02:03:57.080 appropriateness you know and I do believe

02:04:00.000 that humor is it is an immense what would

02:04:04.800 you say an immensely important element of

02:04:06.940 the search for truth for just as play is

02:04:11.640 and and and humor is is there's something

02:04:15.360 about it that's an act of of self

02:04:17.620 transcendence too if you can laugh at

02:04:19.320 yourself right because you're simultaneously

02:04:21.800 the thing that needs to be laughed at which

02:04:24.240 is already behind you if you're laughing

02:04:26.280 at it you know you're you're moving ahead

02:04:28.300 to the better you in the mere fact of

02:04:30.660 allowing yourself to satirize yourself and

02:04:33.600 so what you're saying is you're going to

02:04:35.100 be a stand-up comedian well I think I have

02:04:37.220 more affinity with stand-up comedians in

02:04:39.000 some sense than with any other sort of

02:04:40.580 person that's true yeah because you are

02:04:43.240 getting on a stage you're putting on

02:04:44.760 performance there's going to be moments

02:04:46.580 of unexpected twists in terms in in the in

02:04:50.140 what you're saying and as a function of

02:04:51.640 that it's going to cause hopefully things

02:04:53.420 to put together in their brain so yeah

02:04:54.900 funny and you know when I'm not very

02:04:58.820 healthy it's hard to be funny and but

02:05:00.560 it's a lot it's a it's a loss like the

02:05:03.340 the best lectures that I ever gave have

02:05:06.180 humor in them and and I mean hooray for

02:05:09.100 that and you know that's partly why I

02:05:11.060 toured with Dave Rubin too was to add

02:05:13.160 some levity to what I mean I learned early

02:05:15.800 on that even if you're discussing things

02:05:18.020 of incredible seriousness you know like

02:05:20.320 genocidal seriousness that that if you're

02:05:23.480 if if

02:05:24.440 let me give you an example because that's

02:05:28.940 the whole premise of my book dear reader

02:05:30.300 the North Korea book it's farcical because

02:05:32.480 it's Kim Jong-il's autobiography I went

02:05:35.280 there I read all their literature and I

02:05:37.180 took the things that these people are

02:05:38.500 taught and they're since it's in his

02:05:40.020 voice they're presented at face value and

02:05:41.800 let me give you one example of this Kim

02:05:43.660 Jong-il is having and how and how the

02:05:46.360 truth comes in between the lines of you

02:05:48.160 know an anecdote so Kim Jong-il's at this

02:05:49.900 meeting the dear leader of North Korea

02:05:51.760 and someone's giving a talk and he's

02:05:53.400 working on papers and every so often his

02:05:55.500 assistant is asking him for your input and

02:05:58.180 the speaker stops and Kim Jong-il goes

02:06:00.560 like why are you stopping goes well you

02:06:01.760 know dear leader you're working on those

02:06:03.680 papers you've got your assistant he goes

02:06:05.360 no no no I could do all these three

02:06:06.740 things at once and they said from that

02:06:09.300 point on people regarded Kim Jong-il as

02:06:11.940 looking at time as not a plane but a cube

02:06:15.200 and that he had the ability to shrink

02:06:17.400 time and my friend said to me do they

02:06:19.940 mean multitasking and they did and

02:06:22.460 according to North Korean propaganda Kim

02:06:24.680 Jong-il is the only person North Korea

02:06:27.140 who knows how to multitask and when you

02:06:29.340 have these anecdotes put forth in this

02:06:32.420 manner you realize how removed from

02:06:36.580 reality it's not that he's some magical

02:06:38.620 figure it's just like something that's

02:06:40.000 just absolutely banal is being presented

02:06:42.520 as some kind of major historical

02:06:44.940 accomplishment so humor to you know is

02:06:47.980 and another example there was a an

02:06:49.740 amusement park and one of the things how

02:06:51.540 North Korea claims that they're

02:06:52.680 different from other totalitarian states

02:06:54.820 is they have something called field

02:06:55.880 guidance whenever you read the

02:06:57.260 newspaper they have they have field

02:06:59.220 field guidance field guidance yes so

02:07:01.960 whenever you read their newspapers is

02:07:03.360 whoever the current leader is he's at the

02:07:04.920 bottle factory he's at the munitions

02:07:06.560 plant he's at the farm he's giving them

02:07:08.940 guidance on how to make these things

02:07:10.560 better and as a consequence of this the

02:07:13.300 implication is everyone North Korea is

02:07:15.060 incompetent other than the leader so

02:07:16.440 you better have him in place but there

02:07:18.180 was one story that I include in the

02:07:19.480 book where there's an amusement park and

02:07:21.760 it starts lightly raining and Kim

02:07:23.820 Jong-il insists on riding all the rides

02:07:26.100 twice to make sure they're safe for the

02:07:28.120 children the elderly and everyone on the

02:07:30.060 platform the dignitaries are all crying

02:07:31.800 at his courage and it's like the guy's

02:07:33.620 taking a roller coaster ride like you're

02:07:35.620 regarding him as the kind of like the

02:07:37.540 planting the flack in Iwo Jima but he's

02:07:39.900 on this this roller coaster so this kind

02:07:42.700 of contrast between something that is

02:07:45.380 you know fun and for kids and silly but

02:07:48.940 being presented as this great courageous

02:07:51.100 moment and this guy's a hero that absurd

02:07:53.780 distance is what drives a lot of the

02:07:55.720 narrative did you see the strange death

02:07:58.660 of Stalin oh that book is as close to dear

02:08:02.340 reader the last days of Stalin you mean the

02:08:05.240 movie yeah the yeah did I get the title

02:08:08.360 wrong you said strange death I think it's

02:08:10.480 last days I thought it's last days of

02:08:12.840 Stalin it's by Anthony Annucci who made

02:08:14.880 veep as well no and I was it's the it's

02:08:17.660 the death of Stalin we're both wrong we're

02:08:19.600 both wrong that that's probably

02:08:21.680 characterizes our whole conversation I was

02:08:25.100 so glad that book came out after dear

02:08:27.160 reader because it's exactly the same tone

02:08:30.600 as I used to the point where I would be

02:08:32.280 accused of stealing that movie and this is

02:08:33.640 just one moment just how they use humor

02:08:35.720 to present Stalin's air of terror Stalin

02:08:39.080 has a stroke he's dying he's in his own

02:08:41.420 urine in his room and the two guards are

02:08:43.560 out there and they hear this noise inside

02:08:46.520 the bedroom and one of them goes should we

02:08:49.100 go in there and look and the other guy

02:08:50.480 goes should we shut the fuck up so but

02:08:53.400 that's the thing it's like be quiet head

02:08:55.340 down Stalin at this point obviously would

02:08:58.240 genuinely want your assistance and we want

02:09:00.020 your help but because yeah but it's a

02:09:01.760 little too late for that but it maybe it

02:09:04.340 wasn't they didn't know that right but

02:09:05.840 because these rules are in place yeah

02:09:08.220 these rules are in place the focus is

02:09:10.940 always on fear and not speaking out of

02:09:13.980 turn even if ostensibly it could have

02:09:16.100 saved the greatest man in the world

02:09:17.340 you know so okay so when I read your

02:09:21.760 book and when I looked at the memes that

02:09:24.380 these young guys were generating years ago

02:09:26.540 you know and at me too and and then

02:09:29.760 considered the role of satire and all of

02:09:31.840 that now I'm just remembering what I told

02:09:34.400 my kids when I was raising them because

02:09:36.060 we we I encouraged my kids to be funny

02:09:39.020 that was very highly valued in our

02:09:41.680 household to be witty and witty and funny

02:09:46.000 is really hard because you have to push

02:09:48.460 right to the edge yep yep and not go over

02:09:51.820 and the closer you get to the edge and not

02:09:54.000 without without going over the funnier you

02:09:56.180 are the more daring you are because in

02:09:57.680 part you you show your sophisticated

02:10:00.020 mastery you're so such a sophisticated

02:10:02.340 master of the social dynamic that you

02:10:05.020 can go right to the edge of breaking a

02:10:07.240 rule and not break it or maybe you can

02:10:10.220 break it just enough to show that it

02:10:12.600 should be broken in exactly that manner

02:10:14.560 right and then that's really witty that's

02:10:16.700 really funny and so there's no doubt that

02:10:18.760 that ability to be funny to be satirical to

02:10:21.860 be witty is a potent manifestation of the

02:10:25.040 truth but then you know with my kids I was

02:10:28.620 also watching them constantly you know

02:10:31.260 you can get sibling rivalries that that

02:10:33.240 go completely out of control in a

02:10:34.900 household and so I'd watch them teasing

02:10:37.940 each other and playing with each other and

02:10:40.320 and would intervene and say look you know

02:10:42.900 that's not funny anymore that's not a game

02:10:47.040 that's where it starts to deteriorate into

02:10:48.920 tyranny or deteriorates into a power game

02:10:51.520 it's like stay on the right side of funny

02:10:53.640 you're you're pretending that you're being

02:10:55.420 funny but really you're being mean okay

02:10:58.420 and we also see this with racist humor a

02:11:00.260 lot of times a joke we have a racial

02:11:02.420 element and it's humorous but a lot of

02:11:04.400 times someone who's being a racist is

02:11:05.860 just putting out feelers by saying okay

02:11:07.920 you've accepted this joke can I drop the

02:11:10.300 mask and we could just engage in pure

02:11:11.840 hate so yeah humor well and then it's even

02:11:13.860 worse right because you're using something

02:11:15.740 that really is a tool for the good let's

02:11:18.480 say humor and you're perverting it so

02:11:20.620 that you're masking something awful so

02:11:22.700 that's analogous in some sense to this

02:11:25.420 corporate malfeasance that you were

02:11:26.840 discussing and so I guess in the sense I

02:11:29.820 get when looking at the irreverence of

02:11:33.620 these young guys essentially on 4chan I

02:11:36.520 think just bloody well make sure you stay

02:11:38.660 on the right side of funny and there's

02:11:40.920 always doubt in that and maybe there has

02:11:42.600 to be but but but it's still the right

02:11:45.460 moral imperative it's like go ahead with

02:11:47.360 your humor man but like watch your tongue

02:11:49.360 like watch your tongue it's also the idea

02:11:52.500 of claptor where you had all these

02:11:54.500 comedians going after Trump or whoever

02:11:56.480 and the audience instead of laughing which

02:11:58.180 is a visceral reaction would applaud and

02:12:00.820 it's like they're not they don't think

02:12:02.500 you're funny they're agreeing with you it's

02:12:04.420 it's kind of like people whose favorite

02:12:06.460 kind of music is like religious music it's

02:12:09.460 like you don't necessarily which a lot of

02:12:11.260 is very good a lot of Christian rock is

02:12:12.660 very good don't get me wrong the right

02:12:13.640 talent people but do you like this song

02:12:16.000 because you like the beat do you like how

02:12:17.300 it makes you feel or do you like this

02:12:19.200 song because you happen to agree with the

02:12:20.740 person these are entirely different

02:12:22.620 phenomena yes well there has to be an

02:12:23.840 element of surprise and humor right yes

02:12:26.160 oh yes and that and that that also

02:12:27.680 accounts for that spontaneous laughter

02:12:31.720 which is an indication that the arrow hit

02:12:33.960 its mark right that the target is being

02:12:36.140 specified properly and precisely and it

02:12:38.720 really is a form of art to do that and so

02:12:41.580 well then i think

02:12:43.260 i always had mixed feelings about the the

02:12:48.540 satirists in on 4chan for exactly that

02:12:51.760 reason it's like well are you really

02:12:53.540 watching what you're saying carefully

02:12:55.020 enough like hooray for your humor

02:12:56.620 hooray for your courage all of that but

02:12:59.420 this is like the stephen pinkers in any

02:13:01.580 population you're going to have a small

02:13:03.120 percentage who rise above who are quality

02:13:05.660 and and that um uh whatever it is at its

02:13:09.520 best and the vast majority of people

02:13:11.580 bring nothing to the table and then

02:13:13.360 there's plenty of people who actually use

02:13:14.740 that mechanism to make things much worse

02:13:16.320 right well and that's interesting as well

02:13:18.060 because it also like i always think well

02:13:19.700 wouldn't it be great if there were only

02:13:20.980 good restaurants and then i think well

02:13:23.500 wait a second how many bad restaurants do

02:13:25.440 there have to be in order for there to be one

02:13:27.100 restaurant and the answer isn't zero yeah

02:13:29.980 yeah yeah definitely some because people

02:13:32.440 have to practice and they have to make

02:13:33.940 mistakes and they have to learn and

02:13:35.360 well right and so when you look at 4chan

02:13:38.200 too and you can think well how much

02:13:39.480 wretched humorless racist noise do you

02:13:43.320 have to tolerate in order to generate

02:13:45.100 something of true value and the answer to

02:13:47.200 that is i think two one is we don't know

02:13:50.120 that's the first answer and so beware of

02:13:53.040 clamping down on it too precipitously but

02:13:55.880 the second is maybe that's also something

02:13:59.140 that each of the people who were involved

02:14:01.360 in that kind of activity should should be

02:14:04.420 attending to you know within the confines

02:14:06.940 of their own soul so to speak i mean

02:14:08.900 they're anonymous and it's evanescent but

02:14:10.620 that doesn't mean that you bear no moral

02:14:12.860 responsibility for what you're saying

02:14:14.680 yes and i think cruelty for the sake of

02:14:18.500 cruelty is really a sign of weakness it's

02:14:21.460 the kid pulling the wings off of a bug or

02:14:23.660 like you know putting tin cans on a cat's

02:14:25.420 tail it's a way for people to just feel

02:14:28.220 some modicum of power over another human

02:14:30.020 being but that's a very parasitic way of

02:14:32.240 looking at things uh and using this other

02:14:34.040 person as a means to an end and this

02:14:36.120 person might not be a great person but

02:14:37.940 really what are you accomplishing you're

02:14:39.480 just both miserable now uh that there's

02:14:41.700 there needs to be in my view a joyousness

02:14:44.200 uh to what you're trying to do and i

02:14:46.500 certainly hope that permeates my work and

02:14:48.340 my uh uh output that's a good place to

02:14:54.240 stop thank you sir thank you very much i hope

02:14:59.760 you enjoyed this it so far so good

02:15:03.140 such an honor thank you can i ask you what

02:15:08.160 do you have to bounce right now or do you

02:15:09.200 have time for one question i have time for

02:15:10.920 a question

02:15:11.400 uh in your absence i've been kind of taking

02:15:14.460 a lot of young men under my wing and kind

02:15:16.440 of mentoring them i saved one kid's life

02:15:18.180 when he reached out to me he was suicidal

02:15:19.860 and now he's just kind of has bad days

02:15:21.680 which that's that's all you need that's a

02:15:23.780 lot better

02:15:24.320 yeah like yeah that bad days if you're not

02:15:26.520 a threat to your life whatever

02:15:27.640 what advice would you have to me or to

02:15:29.800 your past self when this started happening

02:15:31.500 for you

02:15:32.020 uh because i'm very scared of saying the

02:15:34.980 wrong thing and making things worse

02:15:36.640 you there's no way you can pay too much

02:15:41.160 attention

02:15:41.660 okay like ignorant attention watch the

02:15:46.540 person

02:15:46.940 and you do that when you're in an in

02:15:49.620 conversation

02:15:50.040 you know yeah paying attention

02:15:51.920 more attention and you can't offer advice

02:15:56.120 in some sense you have to listen

02:15:57.520 okay yeah yeah yeah

02:15:58.940 yeah let them feel heard

02:15:59.900 but if you pay attention like if you pay

02:16:01.600 attention

02:16:01.980 your your good habits will take over and

02:16:04.820 and you'll walk down the right course

02:16:06.820 okay

02:16:07.920 humility and attention that's good

02:16:10.360 humility and attention

02:16:11.500 as i'm sure you've seen it's amazing

02:16:14.240 how many young people

02:16:15.400 just want someone to listen to them

02:16:17.340 and they it's it's just have some that

02:16:19.280 they respect and once that happens

02:16:20.540 they feel so validated

02:16:21.520 yeah well they really want to say

02:16:23.360 something that they're doing that's

02:16:24.960 good to someone

02:16:25.920 yeah and have it be recognized as good

02:16:28.820 yeah yeah yeah yeah that's superb

02:16:31.720 advice thank you so much it was such an

02:16:32.900 honor jordan

02:16:33.340 okay take care

02:16:34.860 thanks michael

02:16:35.580 you

176. Malice, or the Establishment？｜ Michael Malice

Summary

Transcript

The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast

176. Malice, or the Establishment？ ｜ Michael Malice

Summary

Transcript

176. Malice, or the Establishment？｜ Michael Malice