Dr. Jordan B. Peterson has created a new series that could be a lifeline for those battling depression and anxiety. With decades of experience helping patients, Dr. Peterson offers a unique understanding of why you might be feeling this way, and a roadmap towards healing. In his new series, The Boy Crisis , Dr. Warren Farrell and Dr. B.B. Peterson discuss the struggles of developing and growing as young men, and the importance of parental guidance throughout the adolescent years, raising awareness on mental health and how to break these cycles. This episode is sponsored by Allform, the new company launched by the people who made my lovely mattress, Allform is creating furniture that is super customizable. To build your custom sofa, check out Allform s Allform's offering 20% off for all our listeners at ALLFORM.COM/JORDANB.PETERSON. To find a list of our sponsors and show-related promo codes, go to gimlet.fm/OurAdvertisers and enter our promo code: JORDANWORDER at checkout to receive $5 off your first purchase of a new Allform product. Allform sofa and a 20% discount when you place an order through Allform.com/JordanB.P. Peterson. Allform has partnered with Allform to create a custom sofa that s all-inclusive, all-up-to-the-bone design and design experience that includes fabric, fabric, design, and design services. to make sure it s perfect for your living room and living room. Why men are the way they deserve a better than they were ever were they were meant to be? Why women are better than you deserve it, not the kind of woman they deserve it? Why they are the brighter than they are supposed to be better than that? by Warren Farrell is a brighter future you deserve the brighter future they are gonna be the brighter they are by why they are here, they deserve to be there, by why men are more than they should be there? by why women are the better they are? by how they are capable of it? by what they are going to be here? by the way, not better than them? by them, they do it, they are not alone, and they are worthy of it, by they are enough, by them are not enough, they will be there and they will have it, so they are there, they have it and they can be it?
00:00:00.940Hey everyone, real quick before you skip, I want to talk to you about something serious and important.
00:00:06.480Dr. Jordan Peterson has created a new series that could be a lifeline for those battling depression and anxiety.
00:00:12.740We know how isolating and overwhelming these conditions can be, and we wanted to take a moment to reach out to those listening who may be struggling.
00:00:20.100With decades of experience helping patients, Dr. Peterson offers a unique understanding of why you might be feeling this way in his new series.
00:00:27.400He provides a roadmap towards healing, showing that while the journey isn't easy, it's absolutely possible to find your way forward.
00:00:35.360If you're suffering, please know you are not alone. There's hope, and there's a path to feeling better.
00:00:41.800Go to Daily Wire Plus now and start watching Dr. Jordan B. Peterson on depression and anxiety.
00:00:47.460Let this be the first step towards the brighter future you deserve.
00:00:54.060Hello and welcome to the Jordan B. Peterson podcast.
00:00:58.940Quick update on my dad. He's not feeling well.
00:01:01.960His health has been pretty up and down for the last few months.
00:01:04.660It seems to be autoimmune, but he's taken a pause on content production until he's feeling better.
00:01:09.560It's been a really miserable few months, to be honest.
00:01:12.140I saw comments online and thought people might want an update if they're wondering where the new episodes are.
00:01:17.460This is episode 41, recorded on May 25th.
00:01:22.740Jordan and Warren Farrell discuss the struggles of developing and growing as young men.
00:01:28.960Young men all over the world are facing detrimental consequences due to educational pressure and the lack of exposure to a fatherly figure.
00:01:36.680They discuss Warren's book, The Boy Crisis, influences that surround men's development, the importance of parental guidance throughout the adolescent years, raising awareness on mental health, and how to break these cycles.
00:01:50.780I hope you enjoy this podcast and your week.
00:04:12.300We mentioned Why Men Earn More as well, which is a very good book.
00:04:16.080His most recent is The Boy Crisis, as I said, 2018, co-authored with John Gray.
00:04:21.940The Boy Crisis was chosen as a finalist for the Forward Indies Award, which is the Independent Publishers Award.
00:04:28.140Dr. Farrell has been a pioneer in both the women's movement, elected three times to the board of the National Organization of Women in New York City,
00:04:37.020and the men's movement, called by GQ magazine, the Martin Luther King of the men's movement.
00:04:51.300And has been interviewed by Oprah, Barbara Walters, Peter Jennings, Katie Couric, Larry King, Tucker Carlson, Regis Philbin, and Charlie Rose.
00:05:01.660He has frequently written for and been featured in the New York Times and other major publications worldwide.
00:05:08.440He has two daughters, lives with his wife in Mill Valley, California, and resides virtually at www.warrenferrell.com.
00:05:49.000It's just amazing to me that during this process of you going through what you went through, not only with yourself, but with Michaela, with Tammy, that you're not only alive, but that you're also, that you also produce an extraordinary book as well in that period of time.
00:06:08.200So I've been reviewing The Boy Crisis in quite a bit of detail over the last few days.
00:06:14.380It's something I haven't thought about for a while.
00:06:19.060Certainly, I've thought about it since our last conversation.
00:06:21.880The world has twisted and turned in all sorts of strange ways since then.
00:06:25.960And I suppose this issue has been pushed, this particular issue, the boy crisis, let's say, has been pushed to the back burner in a major way by all sorts of, well, cultural movements and by COVID.
00:06:40.100You mentioned to me just when we were discussing this issue, for example, at the beginning of our conversation today, before we started taping, that President Biden established a White House Gender Policy Council, which is supposed to focus on gender issues.
00:06:56.020But in your opinion, pretty much only focuses on women and girls and is also supposed to focus on race, but pretty much ignores black boys, which is perhaps the intersectional place, to use a detestable phrase, where the crisis is the most noticeable.
00:07:12.120So why in the world should we assume that the topic of your book, the title of your book, refers to something that is real?
00:07:20.560And if it's real, why aren't we attending to it?
00:07:25.380Yeah, well, first of all, it's real, because in all 56 of the largest developed nations, boys are falling behind girls in almost every single academic subject, including reading and writing, which are the two biggest predictors of success or failure, as you can probably imagine.
00:07:41.500And boys who do badly in those subjects are much more likely to drop out of high school, and boys in general are much more likely to drop out of high school, especially in the United States.
00:07:54.200And boys who drop out of high school are more than 20% likely to be unemployed in their 20s.
00:08:00.520This is a statistic before COVID, when the unemployment rate in the United States was 3.4% versus more than 20% for boys.
00:08:09.680And so that's just the academic part of it.
00:08:12.900On the mental health part of it, when boys and girls are 9, they commit suicide about equally and very minimally.
00:08:20.360Between the ages of 10 and 14, boys commit suicide twice as often as girls.
00:08:27.060Between the ages of 15 and 19, they commit suicide four times as often as girls.
00:08:32.540Between the ages of 20 and 25, they commit suicide about five times as often as girls.
00:08:37.520And most people don't even know this, pay attention to this.
00:08:41.660But this is only the tip of the iceberg of the mental health issue.
00:08:46.340There's, you know, where boys are far more likely to die from drug overdoses, opioid overdoses.
00:08:53.640They're far more likely to be depressed if you measure depression in a way that includes male symptoms of depression.
00:09:00.520Much, much more likely to enter into places that take care of people who are mentally, have mental problems and so on.
00:09:15.520And when boys, and so I started asking myself, you know, what causes all this?
00:09:20.440You know, and when I first submitted the boy crisis to the publisher and sort of in form of proposal, I outlined 10 causes.
00:09:31.100And those causes included the environment and schools and so on.
00:09:35.720But I kept coming back to realizing that the hub cause of the boy crisis was dad deprivation.
00:09:43.300That the boy crisis resides where dads do not reside.
00:09:47.280And so that got me really thinking about that.
00:09:51.300So, for example, boys who are raised by moms and dads together and go from an intact family to a school that has very few male teachers, there's not a huge impact.
00:10:04.440A little bit of an impact that's negative, but not much.
00:10:07.180But if they go from a female only home environment, have only a female role model, then they go to a school with almost no male teacher role models.
00:10:18.960They are much more subjected to much more vulnerable to being seduced by gangs as a as a pseudo family or trying to not having the postponed gratification that dads tend to bring to the family.
00:10:31.520And so therefore, without that postponed gratification, they're more vulnerable to a drug dealer saying you can make money really easily by dealing drugs.
00:10:40.780You don't have to worry about getting the best grades in school and you'll you'll prove everybody that you'll drive around in a nice car.
00:10:47.020You'll be able to get the girls you can't get because you're you're sort of a loser at school, et cetera.
00:10:51.960So I just started looking at all these things.
00:10:53.940I saw that the sperm count of boys had dropped 50 percent, that the IQs of boys had dropped 15 percent.
00:11:02.080And just I started looking and wondering about two things.
00:11:07.500One is how amazing how much evidence there was for the boy crisis.
00:11:12.840And the second was exactly the question you asked.
00:11:15.180Since it's so evident and we're so focused on girls and women's issues, why are we not even seeing the boys and men's issues that are coming up and how damaging it is to women to not have father involvement?
00:11:30.020For example, women that I had dated between my marriages were constantly talking about being overwhelmed.
00:11:38.760And so women are losers by fathers not being involved.
00:11:44.100And they deal with the whole thing that you talk about in your first rule of, you know, not having not having some type of change of culture where there's a vitality to give them to give them purpose.
00:11:57.280And so we're in a very challenging situation.
00:12:01.000I did come to understand what the cause of it is, but but it really is depressing to see how ubiquitous that cause is.
00:12:09.180So why do you think if the crisis is of the magnitude that you suggest, you cite some statistics in the early part of your book.
00:12:21.540More men in the UK have died by suicide in the past year than all British soldiers in all wars since 1945.
00:12:30.620Suicide now takes more lives than war, murder and natural disasters around the world combined.
00:12:35.640That might not include COVID, I presume that statistic.
00:12:38.720Stealing more than 36 million years of healthy life and the rate of suicide is growing much faster for men than for women.
00:12:44.000You mentioned that boys' IQ has dropped about 15 points since the 1980s and make a case in your book that that's related to fatherlessness.
00:13:24.420Boys who perform as well as girls are graded less favorably.
00:13:28.520You know, we did some research years ago showing that agreeable children get better grades than their IQ would predict.
00:13:36.060And girls are more agreeable than boys.
00:13:38.620And so what that means is if you're less agreeable and more likely to be troubled, then because that is associated with being less agreeable, then you're graded more harshly than your pure cognitive ability would predict.
00:13:50.860And that probably accounts for the gender difference, or at least for part of it.
00:14:28.080One in three children in the UK and the US grow up without a father.
00:14:33.820And, you know, our culture pushes the idea constantly that all families are of equal virtue, let's say.
00:14:39.900And I suppose that's justified in that it's self-evident that of all the things that people strive to do well in their lives, they strive to raise their children, I would say, more diligently than they might meet any other requirement or responsibility.
00:14:59.480And so it seems cruel to judge the quality of the family, given the commitment that it takes, for example, to be a single parent.
00:15:07.640But I'm releasing a podcast this week with Richard Trombley, who's perhaps the world's foremost authority on the development of aggression in children, development and regulation.
00:15:17.500And his data certainly indicates that having a single mother, especially a single mother with issues, is a predictor of the maintenance of aggressive behavior throughout the lifespan, a major predictor.
00:15:33.180Now, he associates that more with trouble on the maternal side, young mothers, young uneducated mothers, young uneducated mothers with psychiatric and other health difficulties who lack social support.
00:15:49.360He hasn't concentrated so much on the fatherlessness end of it, but the upshot or the takeaway is the same.
00:15:56.780These are families that are not producing children who have the same probability of thriving, let's say.
00:16:04.800You said also Japan has increased its vocational education programs so that 23% of its high school graduates study at vocational schools and they have a 99.6% employment rate.
00:16:17.260That's something we can talk about as well.
00:16:19.360So your book is peppered with, well, painful statistics, I would say.
00:16:30.460Why do you think we don't attend to this, Warren?
00:16:34.000I think historically and biologically, men were programmed and really through animals, including insects, right on through to human beings.
00:16:45.720We were programmed to be able to be willing to die in order to get women's love.
00:16:51.440And so in every generation had its war.
00:16:53.840And in each generation's war, we said some version of Uncle Sam needs you.
00:16:57.540And we pointed to the uncle who, in the Marine uniform, on the mantle, and we were so proud of him.
00:17:08.900And the boy sees that the way he can get love and approval and respect, even though he's being criticized by this person or that person or in school or at home, is he can be a soldier.
00:17:20.960And so we inspire boys to be disposable.
00:17:26.240And when somebody is likely to be lost, you don't develop as much emotional attachment to that person.
00:17:37.240And if your way of surviving is for males to be willing to lose their life so we're not under Nazi rule, et cetera, you begin to develop a connection between caring about men largely to the degree that they are willing to protect women and die for women.
00:18:00.440And so you don't care about the people who are dying so much if you have an incentive to have them be willing to die in order to protect you.
00:18:14.560Joe, it's a disposable male hypothesis.
00:18:17.600That would be the hypothesis on the evolutionary psychology front.
00:18:20.640I mean, one of the things I've noticed is that my critics, let's say, like to parody my audience as, well, angry, white, and young, and male, let's say.
00:18:34.400But the thing that's interesting about that is that perhaps you could give me the benefit of the doubt and say that if that is my audience, and my audience is certainly much broader than that, and that wasn't who I was targeting, let's say.
00:18:46.320But even if it was, well, is there something wrong with talking to those people who are alienated and angry and perhaps for some genuine reason?
00:18:57.280The answer seems to be, the default answer seems to be, they're so contemptible that anyone who even tries to help them is to be regarded with extreme suspicion.
00:19:06.300And it seems to me that that's, in some manner, a reflection of the phenomenon that you're discussing, which is a very, what would you say, if it's very deeply rooted and fundamental, at least from one perspective.
00:19:22.060So, you know, I was thinking today, maybe our culture set up so that the most esteemed people are highly successful men, but the least esteemed people are unsuccessful men.
00:19:37.720And so maybe that's the strange paradox, is that men, in some sense, have it the best if they're occupying the pinnacle of achievement, but they have it the worst if they're at the bottom of the heap.
00:19:54.320And that seems right. If you look at women's dating preferences, for example, compared to men, women are disproportionately attracted to successful men and disproportionately likely even to rank men of average attainment as below average, whether it's attractiveness or any of the other criteria by which such things might be judged.
00:20:17.720So, you know, the question is, well, one question is, if it's so deeply rooted, what makes you think there's anything that we can do about it?
00:20:30.000I mean, you haven't had any luck, for example, convincing the White House over years to pay some attention to boys, essentially, even though they're the problem, let's say.
00:20:42.220You might think that even from the perspective of prevention, there would be some attention paid in that direction.
00:20:50.180But this bias is so pervasive that it seems to even interfere with that.
00:20:56.140Absolutely. So a few things, lots of really good things you brought up.
00:20:59.660So let me deal with the first thing on the anger issue.
00:21:01.820One of the I don't know if we've discussed this before, Jordan, but I've been teaching couples communication workshops for 30 years and just produced a 30 a Zoom course on that a few days ago.
00:21:15.460And one of the things that is fundamental to that course is is that men and women and this is gay couples as well and trans couples and and even parents and children all complain about their partners or their parents or their child's anger.
00:21:31.540And almost. And one of the things that I work with them on is to understand that anger is vulnerabilities mask.
00:21:39.860And the moment you see your partner as angry, look for the vulnerability that created that anger, that felt the fact that they felt rejected or the possibility that they felt rejected, the possibility that they felt misunderstood, the possibility that they said what they feel they bother that bothers them over and over again.
00:21:59.860But it's been ignored. And every time that they say that, say what bothers them, there's a response to it that disconnect that cuts, cuts them off and interrupts them before they finish their full feeling.
00:22:11.680They're not drawn out. And the response that they get is an argument.
00:22:16.140And so they tend to not bring up issues that really concern them because it's only going to be met by an argument that will escalate the problem.
00:22:23.640And so they end up walking on eggshells. Now, who does that? Men, women, both sexes do that.
00:22:28.820And it doesn't make any difference whether it's straight or gay couples. They both do. This is a complaint that I hear from literally everybody.
00:22:36.080And so when when your audience is is criticized as being angry, I would just ask, you know, if you if you look at that anger as the vulnerability, how is that audience not being heard?
00:22:47.640And the way you are serving that audience is to hear. So if to the degree that that audience is part of part of your audience is is is is serving that audience by healing them, by having them have a place where they feel heard as opposed to dismissed.
00:23:04.900When someone feels dismissed, they become depressed, they become they turn inward.
00:23:11.000And an example of that is when men and fathers and mothers go through the family court system, fathers are much less likely to feel heard and the family courts feel treated as equals.
00:23:22.060Now, that's another reason why I wanted to talk to you before and today in my clinical practice.
00:23:27.540I had men who were fine, upstanding men who were absolutely ground into nothing by the family court system.
00:23:36.840I mean, I pulled all the tricks I had out of my hat.
00:23:40.300One client in particular, a medical professional who whose life was completely destroyed by the family law system.
00:23:46.900It was like watching a train wreck in slow motion, to use a terrible cliche.
00:23:50.960We tried every trick in the book to keep him afloat.
00:23:53.860What he wanted was 50 percent access to his three kids.
00:23:57.800I went out with him a number of times with his kids and watched how he interacted with them and how he taught them and and and how he cared for them and went to his house and looked at how he set up their bedroom.
00:24:08.220And he did this guy did everything right.
00:24:10.240He was extremely high in conscientiousness.
00:24:37.740The kids would come out and go into his truck and pull away so that everything that transpired between the two of them was in full public view all the time.
00:24:47.580And despite that, she managed to get into his car a number of times.
00:24:50.480But anyways, he he he he was just demolished.
00:24:56.400Maybe maybe we can go into this a little bit.
00:24:58.900But I get criticized for a couple of things by men regularly.
00:25:05.560One is I get criticized because I stand up for traditional marriage.
00:25:09.200And there's always a proportion of men who write.
00:25:12.960And they're usually men who've been demolished by the family court system who say, look, you should stop telling young men to adopt a permanent relationship.
00:25:20.640Get married because the family court system is so prejudiced against men that to sign a marriage contract, if you sign it with the wrong person, is, you know, tantamount to a.
00:25:37.140Well, let's not call it a death warrant, but but it's a very bad idea, you know, and my response to that is, well, you're basically married if you live together for six months anyways.
00:25:46.880And so I don't see how the marriage actually adds to that, you know, in terms of in terms of risk.
00:25:54.600But it's not like I don't understand that there's a point there.
00:25:58.360And it's it's interesting because I do believe that the family court system I've looked at it.
00:26:03.140I've been involved in it several times.
00:26:10.640The men have the men who are objecting have a point.
00:26:13.020And then I'm also suggesting to young men, another point of criticism, that, you know, they adopt traditional responsibilities to the degree that that's possible and that that's where they'll find meaning.
00:26:22.860But, you know, some of your work makes me second guess that, at least to some degree, wondering if.
00:26:32.480I just don't see an alternative, I suppose.
00:26:34.560I suppose that's really the issue is that, well, what do we have?
00:26:37.680We have our jobs, we have our careers, we have our loved ones, we have our families.
00:26:58.880Let's say we really we really so to affirm what you're saying and put a piece of data to that, when people are going through the family court system, mothers and fathers are going through the family court system.
00:27:11.420The father is eight times as likely as the mother to commit suicide from the frustration, obviously, of not feeling able to connect to his children.
00:27:23.100But what very few mothers and fathers understand is that, you know, dads have adopted in their traditional role sort of a father's cast 22.
00:30:52.840Marriage is for children, not for adults.
00:30:54.740That's, that's a very immature way of looking at the world.
00:30:56.700If you think your marriage is for you.
00:30:58.580You're, you have a free choice when you have children to have the children or not have the children.
00:31:03.540That's like having a free choice to take the job or not take the job.
00:31:06.780But once you take the job, you take the responsibilities with it.
00:31:10.040And, and so, so in court, what I talk about, I do a lot of expert witness work on this issue.
00:31:15.760And in court, what I explain is that we now, we now, for the first time in the last five or six years, we now have really incontrovertible evidence that four things are really needed if we want the children to do the best to divorce.
00:31:30.820Number one is an equal amount of time with mother and father, the closer you get to 50-50, even when the child is like a one year old or just born, it is, that is, that leads to the greatest possibility of a positive outcome on so many measures that we'd have to spend almost a half hour talking about those measures.
00:31:50.700Well, I'd like, I would like to talk about that to some degree, because it's, it's somewhat counterintuitive.
00:31:55.080So I think it's important to delve into that.
00:32:00.820And then number two is that the father and mother live within about 20 minutes drive time from each other, because when they don't, oftentimes, they become very resentful of the other parent, because they have to go to that other parent's home and miss their soccer practice.
00:32:16.100So therefore, they don't get the skills and the teamwork and the continuity to be good on the soccer team or miss their best friend's birthday party or whatever.
00:32:24.820And so there's a tension when the father and mother live after divorce, more than about 20 minutes drive time from each other.
00:32:33.200Number three is that the children cannot experience any bad mouthing or negative body language from mom toward dad or dad toward mom.
00:32:44.500Because when the child looks in the mirror, and let's say the child's a boy and hears that your father is irresponsible and your father's a liar and your father is this and that, that boy is looking in the mirror and saying, well, maybe I'm a narcissist like my dad.
00:33:13.480And so that image of future masculinity.
00:33:17.560I mean, I always think of Captain Hook when I think of that, because Peter Pan stays Peter Pan because he doesn't want to be Captain Hook.
00:33:24.140And it's a brilliant, it's brilliant mythologically, that story, because it's got it exactly right.
00:33:29.120If you conceptualize the great father as power hungry tyrant, which is increasingly the way we conceptualize our entire society, and we call it patriarchal, then why would you want to grow up to be that?
00:33:43.760And so if the mother is modeling her opinion that that's what constitutes dad, she's also modeling her opinion that that's what constitutes future mature son, since he's going to be dad.
00:33:57.500And then that boy hearing that both, let's say if he hears that from the mother, by the way, this is true father to mother also.
00:34:03.680I mean, dad mouthing in the part of the father of the mother is really damaging to the child, because not only is that child half the genes of the other parent, but also the child can't bring it up to either parent.
00:34:16.400Because if it brings it up to the parent that made that complaint, it loses that favoritism of that parent.
00:34:24.820If it brings it up to the other parent that your dad said this, or mom said this about you, that destabilizes the child's future even more.
00:34:32.880Right, so the child has a terrible secret all the time.
00:34:49.740And then the fourth thing that's very important is that the children, that the parents rather, are in couples communication counseling or relationship counseling, not just when there is an emergency.
00:35:00.580When there's an emergency, everything has to be made as a quick decision, and there's a tendency to see the other parent's worst intent, whereas long-term counseling allows the father and the mother to see, to have time to hear the mother or father's best intent about what they're doing and why they're doing it.
00:35:17.660Well, so at the bare minimum, that means that the couple gets together in an administrative sense to sort out the necessary details in the presence of a relatively, what would you say, interest-free, commitment-free, bias-free third party.
00:35:34.280It's really a management ploy, in some sense, rather than a counseling ploy per se, or at least you could parse it out in those two ways.
00:35:41.220Obviously, once you have children with someone, you're married to them permanently in some real sense, and so that has to be taken care of, and a lot of taking care of a marriage.
00:35:52.760I do make this point to some degree in Beyond Order, when I talk about making space for romance, a fair bit of marriage's administrative detail and getting that right, I mean, that does allow you to see some goodwill
00:36:13.540If you guys have been listening to the podcast for a while, you know that Dad and I have received NAD infusions in the past to help with health and have seen results like improved mood and energy levels.
00:36:25.860The big drawback to the infusions is the treatment requires being hooked up to an IV for eight hours at a time, and it's pretty unpleasant.
00:36:34.540The effects were pretty cool, though, like a buzzing throughout my entire body and just a feeling of calm.
00:36:39.320So, Basis, by the company Elysium, is a great way to save the time of infusions and the cost and still get the benefits of NAD.
00:36:48.280Basis works by increasing your NAD levels and activates something known as sirtuins, or our longevity genes, which scientists say optimize the way we age.
00:36:58.000Basis is also the first dietary NAD supplement to synergistically activate sirtuins based on 30 years of research in the science of aging.
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00:37:22.640NAD is found in every single cell of your body and is responsible for creating energy and regulating hundreds of cell functions.
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00:42:07.140And dads are likely to affirm that but not so vociferously at first but are more likely to say some version of a, well, you know, if you want to be a gym, you know, if you want to be in the Olympics, you've got to practice all the time.
00:42:22.120And we'll, yes, we'll give you some tutoring or we'll go out of our way and take you to gymnastics practice.
00:42:29.060But if you're not really focused on, if you're focused on responding to tweets and going to parties and doing other things, you're never going to become an Olympic gymnast.
00:42:41.080And the dad is much more likely to enforce the boundaries around that trade-off and require the child to focus and discipline, focus and have postponed gratification around what they say they want to do and give up support for the child if the child doesn't follow through with that and only has a dream that they're not willing to have the discipline to fulfill that.
00:43:07.260So that's, okay, so there's a real hypothesis there, which I think is worth delving into because one question obviously is, well, why is it not good to be without a father?
00:43:18.440And is it not the case that someone else, maybe two females, for example, could play the paternal role?
00:43:25.620And obviously that's true to some degree, if we could specify what the paternal role is.
00:43:30.260But you make a very specific case, which is quite an interesting one, which is that it's fathers primarily who are responsible for the instantiation of delay of gratification.
00:43:40.260Now, we should point out that among psychologists who are leery of IQ as the best predictor of success in the long run, the vast majority of those psychologists, whose opinion I do not agree with, by the way, is that the thing that predicts better than IQ is the capacity to delay gratification.
00:44:02.840And that seems to be associated with trait conscientiousness and trait conscientiousness, which is dutifulness and industriousness and orderliness, the ability to make and maintain verbal contracts.
00:44:14.760Conscientiousness is the best predictor of long-term success outside of general cognitive ability.
00:44:19.840I would also say that in cultures where families are more likely to be intact, and so we could say Southeast Asian cultures, for example, and point out that children from Southeast Asian cultures do disproportionately better in North America than children of North American parents.
00:44:59.280It's the ability to delay gratification.
00:45:01.540And so if it is the case that father involvement is a key predictor of the capacity to delay gratification, then that's an absolutely crucial issue.
00:45:13.380And we need to know, well, is that true?
00:45:16.740And we also need to know if it's true, why it's true.
00:45:20.660And perhaps it has something to do with the relative disagreeability of fathers.
00:45:25.020So women are more prone to negative emotion than men, and they're more empathic and compassionate and polite than men.
00:45:38.380And disagreeableness is the best predictor, by the way, of criminal behavior from the personality perspective, even though it's not a very good predictor.
00:45:46.000But if you're really, really disagreeable, that's one of the things that can land you in jail because you don't take other people into account.
00:45:53.260You can be callous and cruel and unkind.
00:45:55.320But just because something has its pathologies in the extreme doesn't mean it's not necessary in moderation.
00:46:03.540And disagreeable people are better at saying no and at setting boundaries and at being cruel to be kind, let's say.
00:47:09.440Yeah, and then, but the difference between moms and dads is not the boundary setting or the children's challenge, but rather the boundary enforcement.
00:47:19.140The child will be able to say to mom some version of like, you know, I had a tough time in school today.
00:47:24.760I really fell down because I was teased by this boy, and he's the best, most popular boy or the most popular girl in the school.
00:47:30.320He'll usually would be the boy that would tease him.
00:47:32.900And, you know, and so mom is saying to herself, you know, well, what am I going to do here?
00:47:37.340Am I going to be, get into a big argument over a few peas when he's depressed?
00:48:11.380Whereas dad is much more likely to go, I'm sorry, we have a deal here, sweetie.
00:48:16.540I know you had a bad day in school, but you need to finish the peas.
00:48:21.060The deal is before you get your ice cream.
00:48:23.340Oh, daddy, you're so mean. Mommy doesn't do that to me.
00:48:25.820And dad goes, well, you know, you can continue to complain, but this is my rules now.
00:48:34.000And if you continue to complain, there'll be no more ice cream.
00:48:36.320There'll be no ice cream, even as a possibility tomorrow night.
00:48:39.700Now we're forcing, the child is getting forced to have to pay attention to doing what she or he needs to do.
00:48:45.820Finish the peas before she or he gets the ice cream, what they want to have.
00:48:49.680Okay, so let me take what you said apart a little bit from a personality perspective.
00:48:54.160Okay, so I'm going to hit it from three perspectives.
00:48:57.320So the first is, I've always been entranced by the Disney movie Pinocchio.
00:49:01.500And Pinocchio is about the development of an autonomous individual, right?
00:49:04.960Someone who's free from having his strings pulled by others and who isn't a wooden head, but someone who's alive and can think for himself.
00:49:12.060And as Pinocchio develops, he faces a number of temptations.
00:49:16.040And one is to become an actor, which means to become a deceiver or a player of parts rather than the real thing.
00:49:22.560But another is to become a neurotic wreck who wants vacations.
00:49:29.580And the way the fox and the cat tempt him is by convincing him that he's ill, convincing him to capitalize on that, and convincing him that the respite for his illness is a vacation from his, a permanent vacation from his responsibility.
00:49:44.120So the temptations are deceitful actor and neurotic victim.
00:52:32.900She spent the first year bonding with the child and also learning how to respond, essentially,
00:52:39.040especially in the first six months, to his or her every whim.
00:52:42.260Because a crying infant demands instant recourse.
00:52:46.600And a crying infant is always right, especially if they're under six months of age.
00:52:50.800But then, when the kid becomes ambulatory and starts to require discipline, the woman is required to switch from this primarily empathic role,
00:53:00.440which is facilitated by hormonal transformation post-pregnancy, by the way,
00:53:05.120from this primarily nurturing role to a role that is, in some ways, in the local environment, its antithesis.
00:53:42.080So, what we know when we look at bedtimes set by mothers and fathers is that moms will set bedtimes earlier than dads will.
00:53:52.400Dads will set bedtimes later, but the children end up, when studied, going to bed earlier when they're with the dad than they do with the mom.
00:54:03.100What the dad will be more likely to do is say some version of, like, okay, bedtime is 9 o'clock.
00:54:08.120And whatever, when you get all your chores done, when you get yourself, you brush your teeth, you change your clothes, you've done your homework, et cetera.
00:54:17.400And I see your homework and it's done well.
00:54:19.720Then any time that you have between when you're finished, when your sister and brother are both finished, your homework, et cetera,
00:54:27.360that time you have to play or do or ask me to do whatever I want.
00:54:43.040In order to get what they want to have there, this story read to them, some roughhousing before bedtime and, you know, something along those lines.
00:54:50.880And then with the understanding that they will then, everything will be cut off at 9 o'clock.
00:54:56.620The children with mom are more likely to, mom says, you know, bedtime is this time, it's 9.30, let's say.
00:55:05.460And the children gets to be 9.30 and one of the boys or kids will say, you know, well, I haven't done my homework, you know,
00:55:12.620knowing that mom will want the child to have done his or her homework rather than go to bed without having homework be done.
00:55:21.300And so mom will say, well, all right, you should have done your homework before, but we'll allow you a little bit more time to finish your homework off.
00:55:30.940And so the boy is able to, or girl, is able to manipulate more time than that 9.30 time and stay open even, or stay up even later.
00:55:43.120What the dad makes clear to the child is that if he or she does not, if they use up all that time and they haven't done the homework and it's now 9 o'clock your bedtime,
00:55:55.660sorry, but you are, you will not, you'll just go to school and not have your homework done.
00:56:02.200That's your responsibility to get that done by this point in time.
00:56:06.320And so the, um, and so that's one of the sort of dynamics that happens that leads to children being more likely to be focused on doing what they need to do.
00:56:16.740And, um, and also children brought up by mothers are more likely to be ADHD.
00:56:22.380If they're brought up predominantly by mothers, 30% of children are ADHD.
00:56:26.500That includes the average between boys and girls.
00:56:29.340Boys are obviously more likely to be ADHD.
00:56:31.160Uh, whereas with fathers brought up predominantly by fathers, only 15% are likely to have ADHD because you can see from those examples that the, the boy or the girl, the children are required to focus on doing what they need to do.
00:56:46.800Get that homework done, get their teeth brushed, uh, before they get what they want to have.
00:56:51.880Um, and the same, we talked last time about rough housing, how, uh, the children, the children were, um, were prevented from having more rough housing fun.
00:57:01.380If they pushed their sister or their brother out of the way and they didn't consider their, the, the, the, the needs of their brother and sister.
00:57:09.440So back, back, back to the, the personality differences.
00:57:14.980So women are higher in negative emotion and they're higher in trait agreeableness.
00:57:20.240And so the way to manipulate someone who's high in negative emotion is to manifest negative emotion and to say, um, here's a bunch of reasons why I'm not doing so well.
00:57:33.660And that, that, so because of the sensitivity to negative emotion, the fact of the negative emotion is more compelling because it's more deeply felt.
00:57:42.360And then the agreeableness means that there's a much higher probability of being felt sorry for.
00:57:49.740And, and you can see that in the positives light when you're dealing with infants, because when they're in distress, the proper response is immediate gratification of their desires.
00:58:00.560But that's not a good long-term strategy, which is, I think, likely why, well, I don't exactly understand the relationship with lower agreeableness.
00:58:08.960It's certainly the reason for the emergence of conscientiousness, which is a cold virtue and which involves delay of gratification.
00:58:15.980Now, men are not more conscientious than women.
00:58:19.560They're more industrious and industrious to some slight degree and less orderly.
00:58:23.960And those two combined make conscientiousness.
00:58:26.380But the agreeableness difference is definitely, you know, it's, it's quite pronounced.
00:58:30.220And so, you know, partly what you're arguing for from the perspective of a personality psychologist is the necessity for two parent families really on temperamental grounds on and really on biological grounds.
00:58:43.940I mean, these things are mutable to some degree, but not easily.
00:58:46.440And the other thing that's quite interesting is that, and this is something everyone should really listen to, is that they're anti-mutable given the way that our society is proceeding.
00:59:00.360So you might say, well, there are these personality differences between men and women, higher neuroticism in women, so that's proclivity to negative emotion, and higher agreeableness.
00:59:12.040But if we made our societies equal, those personality differences would go away, and then we wouldn't require bi-gendered parenting.
00:59:23.240But what's happened is that if you go to the Scandinavian countries, where the attempts to equalize the social landscape have gone the furthest, and in some sense had the most success, there are notable exceptions.
00:59:39.980So if you rank order countries by the egalitarian nature of their social policies, now, and that doesn't require that any of them have perfectly egalitarian policies, it just requires that you admit that some cultures are more egalitarian than others in their attempts and their practices, and I think only a fool wouldn't put the Scandinavian countries at the top of that list.
01:00:04.500Then you'd say, well, what that should mean is that in Scandinavia, the personality differences between men and women are minimized, and in authoritarian countries, they're maximized.
01:00:15.380And exactly the reverse is what happens, is if you iron out the wrinkles in the social landscape so that it's more egalitarian, men and women get more different with regards to their interests, people versus things.
01:00:30.000So women get more interested in people and less interested in things and less interested in the STEM fields, at least in partial consequence, science, technology, engineering, and mathematics, and they get even more different than men in terms of their neuroticism and their agreeableness, not less.
01:00:47.840And so that argues against easy social amelioration of this necessity for bi-gender two-parent households.
01:00:59.440Yes. Yes, the children that seem to do the best are ones that have, they're in intact families, or as I mentioned before, the children have about an equal amount of time with both parents, and that there is a checks and balance parenting.
01:01:13.380So a child will come to the father, the mother, and say, can I climb the tree in the backyard?
01:01:18.320And mom will say, well, maybe in a few years, sweetie, but not right now.
01:01:22.160You're too young, and you could really hurt yourself.
01:01:24.780And the child will ask the same thing of a dad, and the dad will be more likely to say, well, yes, I guess so, but be careful.
01:01:31.260And then if the mother finds out, the father and the mother will go, well, wait a minute, you're not blah, blah, blah.
01:01:37.200You're playing one against the other here, kid.
01:01:40.720Yes, but, well, the kid will play one against the other, but one of the best responses to that is for the child to be able to see the mother and father negotiating.
01:01:51.340And saying, you know, well, yes, you can climb the tree, but you can't go beyond this branch this high, and you can't, you know, go on these branches.
01:01:59.820And dad, you need to be out there under the tree so that in case the child falls, you know, the child will be cushioned by your fall.
01:02:09.060And don't get preoccupied with the cell phone.
01:02:11.040In fact, maybe give me the cell phone while you're out there with Ginger or Mary under the tree.
01:02:16.880Right, so they see the negotiation between masculine and feminine taking place.
01:02:30.120Well, it's both specific and metaphorical.
01:02:32.560Specifically, we now know that children climbing trees makes them worry about what risks are worth taking, what risks are that fires synapses that are outside of their normal synapse firing development.
01:02:48.020And the data that we have for that is that the IQs of children doing risk-taking behaviors like climbing trees increase as they do that risk-taking behavior, and they increase their psychomotor functioning.
01:03:02.420Okay, so there's this concept that a Russian developmental psychologist came up with, Vygotsky, called the zone of proximal development.
01:03:12.140And one of the things he noted was that, I believe it was Vygotsky who discovered this, it might not have been, but it's the same phenomenon, so it doesn't really matter.
01:03:21.160So if you analyze the way that parents talk to children who are developing their language, so infants who are still learning to speak, the adults don't speak to the infant in terms that the infant can understand precisely.
01:03:36.820The adults speak to the infant slightly ahead of its developmental trajectory, and Vygotsky called that the zone of proximal development, which is the key zone to be in if you're going to learn.
01:03:49.280So imagine, and I make much of this in my books, that there's a domain that you've already mastered, and so that when you operate in that domain, the things you want to happen, happen.
01:03:58.680That's the domain of order, and then there's another domain where all hell breaks loose, and you don't know what to do, and that's the domain of chaos, but there's an intermediary where you're expanding your zone of competence through exploration, and that's really where consciousness operates, and that's where we learn.
01:04:18.580And so risk-taking behavior isn't exactly risk-taking behavior, it's embeddedness in the zone of proximal development.
01:04:26.540I'll give you an example, so it's germane to your example.
01:04:30.280So when my kids were little, I bought this old wrecked wooden play set, monkey bars and swings.
01:04:39.620It was dilapidated, but I took it home and sanded it down and repainted it and, you know, gave it about five or six more years of life, and my daughter, who was about two and a half at the time, would go out there on that monkey bar, and so it was a ladder going up about six feet, which was a pretty decent ladder for a little two-and-a-half-year-old, you know, and so we were inclined to watch her.
01:05:04.340And she would stand on the first rung and then move her foot a quarter of the way up towards it, and then half a way up towards it, and then three-quarters of the way up towards it, and then she'd put her foot on the rung, and then she'd do the same with her next foot, staying in that zone of proximal development.
01:05:20.180Can I move a quarter of a step? Can I move half a step? Can I move three-quarters of a step?
01:05:25.140And we'd watch her do that, and doing that, she pinned all those movements together and mastered climbing up the monkey bar, and it was much to our satisfaction.
01:05:34.340To watch her, because she was taking, she wasn't taking a risk exactly, she was pushing herself out into the zone of proximal development, and engaging in this mastery behavior.
01:05:44.220So you could say in some sense, and I believe this to be the case, that the masculine spirit encourages and facilitates the transformation.
01:05:51.240So if the feminine is concentrating on who the child is now, and what that child now needs, the masculine is concentrating on how that child can move to the next developmental stage, and pushing that along.
01:06:08.840A, yes, and B, here's an example of that also, that coordinates or connects perfectly with that.
01:06:14.860But the data shows that dads are more likely, for example, to use words that the child does not yet understand, or does not understand at that time.
01:06:25.460And the mom is oftentimes looking at it and saying, well, you know, why are you saying that, you know, the child doesn't understand what you mean?
01:06:32.200And the dad's conscious or unconscious sort of feeling is, I want to plant seeds.
01:06:38.540And after the child hears this in different contexts, she or he will begin to sort of understand what that word is and what that means.
01:06:46.800And moms feel it's just, moms are more likely to feel, that's just so insensitive.
01:06:51.880So being in this zone of proximal development, like, I brought that into the conversation because you talked about risk-taking.
01:07:01.340And so what you could say is that as you push the boundaries of the zone of proximal development, you enter the domain of risk.
01:07:10.020And so then the question would be, what personality elements are capable of tolerating the transformation of the zone of proximal development into the zone of risk?
01:07:20.620And the answer to that would be lower neuroticism and lower agreeableness.
01:07:26.080Because lower neuroticism would mean you wouldn't worry as much.
01:07:30.040So the magnitude of the perceived risk would be less.
01:07:33.080And lower agreeableness would mean, well, even if there is some risk, you don't care as much.
01:07:39.380Now, it's not like you don't care about the risk exactly, although it is that in some felt sense.
01:07:44.660But the reason for that is that, well, there's another judgment, which is, well, the risk is worth taking.
01:07:49.960Because there's more than one risk at play here.
01:07:52.220There's the proximal risk that you engage in when you push yourself, but there's the distal risk that you engage in when you don't push yourself.
01:08:01.060Yes, you're right on target there now.
01:08:03.440And this is why so many of the differences between male and female-style parenting are so important to understand.
01:08:09.840And one of those that sort of connects to what you're saying is the differences that moms and dads tend to get into about dads teasing children, which feels to many moms like it often results in the child crying when the teasing first starts.
01:08:26.580But it begins to teach the child a whole series of skill sets.
01:08:31.620You know, what tones of voice are teasing or playfulness?
01:09:16.580And they begin to distinguish between make sure you get off the bed as fun versus make sure you get off the bed as, you know, something that is.
01:09:25.640Well, they also learn to distinguish between what's mean and what's funny.
01:09:29.680You know, I mean, when I was watching my children, especially with regards to their sibling rivalry, which is likely to emerge in children who are less than three years apart in their birth order.
01:09:40.560And sort of in proportion to the closeness of their birth.
01:09:46.780So if you want to minimize childhood sibling rivalry, you space the children out three years.
01:09:51.620We don't know what that does to their relationship across time, but we know it minimizes sibling rivalry.
01:09:55.860In any case, I wanted them always to stay on the funny side of teasing because teasing can easily turn into torture.
01:10:03.420And so they had to learn these extremely fine gradations of humor.
01:10:08.280And to do that, they had to play on the edge.
01:10:11.620And the question is, how necessary is it to have the capacity to allow your children to play on the edge?
01:10:17.520And fathers have that by temperament more than mothers do.
01:10:21.260Now, but you, you know, you pointed out something really interesting.
01:10:24.160You didn't exactly make the claim that the father was necessary.
01:10:28.720You made a more subtle claim, which was that the dialogue between the father's higher risk tolerance and the mother's lower risk tolerance is necessary.
01:10:38.580And that takes place, that can take place within an intact marriage.
01:10:41.480But you also said it can take place in a marriage that's been broken apart as long as the couples commit to a long-term communication strategy, a long-term supervised communication strategy.
01:11:39.420You know, and then but if the father has hangout time, let's say in a divorce situation with the child, the child is likely maybe they're one's doing homework, the other was doing their different type of work.
01:11:52.280And they end up in the kitchen together and they're looking through the thing.
01:11:54.960And then the boy will say, you know, Daddy, I don't get it.
01:11:59.240If you're playing soccer and you're doing really well.
01:12:01.700And I was goalie last week and this week I wasn't goalie, but I thought I did really well.
01:12:06.260And the coach even said I did really well.
01:12:08.460But now he put he put in Jimmy for goalie goalie instead of me.
01:12:14.680And that's when children with hangouts with hangout time, both boys and girls tend to to do much better than they do when they just are asked a quick question for a conversation.
01:12:40.520But if you said, you know, if you ask them something specific, how did you like having the ice cream taken away from you by by somebody at school?
01:12:49.580So when something triggers something that is very specific, the child will tend to sort of open up and on his or her own terms.
01:12:58.440And interestingly, I said hangout time was very important for boys.
01:13:02.560Psychologically, some researchers at the University of California, Irvine, said it's the single greatest predictor of psychological security in girls hangout time with dads.
01:13:12.740And hangout time with moms and dads has a different dimension to it.
01:13:16.840The children know that if they if they say say a problem to mom, she's more likely to be reassuring.
01:13:22.300I'm sure that I'm sure that I wanted you to do really well.
01:13:27.080He was probably just giving the other the other the other person a chance because in order for them to feel good about themselves, like you did when you play goalie.
01:13:35.780Whereas the child is usually likely to know that the dad is more likely to say, well, you know, what did you do that maybe was not so good as a goalie?
01:13:45.940What do you think you can do that's different with it, with the with the coach next time?
01:13:50.480Did you ask the coach directly why she or he took you away from being a goalie?
01:13:54.940And so the children more of a problem solving approach or a problem.
01:13:58.780And you think that's associated with a positive developmental consequence for IQ?
01:16:07.660We had very explicit discussions about such things in my household.
01:16:10.800So, I mean, I wanted the kids to be inoculated against casual insult.
01:16:18.880You have to take that with a sense of humor or it just mounts.
01:16:23.020I've seen people who can't respond to that initial testing, you know, and it's partly what people do to see if you're socialized.
01:16:31.240You see, because people want to socialize with people who are about as socialized as them.
01:16:36.280And so what they'll do first is throw out some teasing and see what happens.
01:16:39.760And if it evokes a playful response, then they know that the person that they're dealing with can be relied on to play and has been reasonably socialized.
01:16:48.220You're hitting the nail right on the head.
01:16:49.820And the commerce of masculinity is the trading of wit-covered put-downs.
01:16:56.720And men learn as they grow up that I think probably the reason that that happens is because men learn that if you can handle criticism, you're not going to be successful.
01:17:09.120And if you're not going to be successful...
01:17:10.460You're also unpredictable because it means that if something small and upsetting comes along, you're going to get big and upset.
01:17:37.000And here's the type of problems that that creates in the workplace.
01:17:39.820So if you're a dad talking to the mom about teasing children, help her see how this evolves into the workplace.
01:17:47.240So in the workplace, a girl, a woman oftentimes may get teased and she will interpret that teasing like, you know, did you see you have a new dress on?
01:17:58.780Did you get that to flirt with the boss?
01:18:01.220Or do you have, you know, you're dressed, you must have dressed in the dark last night?
01:18:06.300That's something if you say it to a guy, they come back at you with some funny counter point like, you know, well, that would be typical for a short man to say.
01:18:17.540And the men with each other, when they can tease each other like that and play with each other, that means that they're beginning to trust that man and move them into their league of people they can respect and trust.
01:18:32.740Whereas if the woman hears something like that comment, she might feel it means that she's being discriminated against in the workplace.
01:18:42.500So she takes that perspective and says...
01:18:44.340That would be particularly true, I suspect, if she didn't have a lot of masculine presence in her life.
01:19:50.280It's also a compliment to the person who's designed to receive it because you're facing them with the proposition that they can tolerate a comment.
01:19:59.020They're sophisticated enough to know when a comment is right on the edge.
01:20:02.520And they're resilient enough to tolerate it and respond in kind.
01:20:06.560So it's a compliment of the highest order to push like that.
01:20:10.060It is so important that you said that.
01:21:14.920That's failing a test in a more profound way.
01:21:18.140Because one of the things you do when you're in elementary school and junior high school and high school, for that matter, and then in the workplace, is tease someone and see if they run off to find a figure of authority or whether they can deal with it themselves.
01:21:30.080Because you assume that if they have to run off and find a figure of authority, that they're not mature enough to solve their own problems.
01:21:50.980Do you know what the stats are in proportion of workplace complaints that are brought forth by women compared to men?
01:21:55.800I know the OCR stats, the Office of Civil Rights stats about complaining is about, I think it was a fellow named Joseph Eck, who's done the research on that.
01:22:06.920And I think he said it was like 19 to 1, 19 complaints by women about men for each one complaint by men about a woman.
01:22:14.920Right. And that's funny, because, you know, the men probably generate the grounds for complaints more often, being more disagreeable.
01:22:21.740And the women are more sensitive to the negative consequences, being less emotionally stable, more neurotic.
01:23:25.180No, and the challenge here is really enormous, because in the sexual area, it's very rare that a woman is interested in dating somebody at work who is earning less than she is,
01:23:40.900and doesn't have as high status, and the great majority of women that I've seen that were single when they entered the workplace and then married somebody.
01:23:50.400A significant percentage of them have married somebody in the workplace, but the great majority of that significant percentage have married somebody at least at their level and usually above them at work.
01:24:00.920And it characterizes women with regard to potential for generous earning, essentially.
01:24:06.560And unsurprisingly, I think it's an attempt to balance the economic scales, because women take the brunt of pregnancy and the brunt of the first year of child rearing, I would say, as well.
01:24:19.660So, and they make themselves vulnerable as a consequence, so they need to redress that inequality, and that's how they do it.
01:24:28.480But there are consequences to that that are very severe in the socioeconomic, in the social spheres.
01:24:35.400And then when a man above her does take interest in her, and it's explicit about it, you know, it can either result in courtship or a law court.
01:24:49.660Yes, or, and a law, yes, a courtship of one form or the other.
01:24:54.380And so it's a really, and what the biggest problem that's happened in the last 15, 20 years, especially since Hashtag Me Too, is that I have not yet spoken to a single corporate CEO who has not said some version of the following to me.
01:25:13.580You know, Warren, I used to say, you know, Warren, I used to love mentoring women, but I have a wife and I have children.
01:25:19.400There's no way, shape or form that I will mentor a woman today.
01:25:22.960Well, it was increasingly insisted upon in my workplace at the university that if I ever had a female in the room with me, that the door be open.
01:25:33.960I mean, and as soon as that's the rule, you're done.
01:25:37.580You have to start rethinking everything.
01:25:39.220Can you travel with your graduate students?
01:25:41.700Can you be in the same hotel, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.
01:25:44.900As soon as you have to start thinking about those things, that means the risk has become so great that you're much less likely to engage in such activity.
01:25:53.400And mentoring is a very intimate relationship.
01:26:00.660I mean, many men are particularly inspired to mentor to a woman who's younger that is attractive, and many younger attractive women increase their caring about and their love for a man who they see as a result of his mentoring.
01:26:20.640Yeah, well, you know, across cultures, women prefer men who are about four years older.
01:26:24.400There's some variation, and that actually is one of the things that is moderated in the Scandinavian culture.
01:26:29.340So that age gap is less rather than more in the Scandinavian cultures.
01:26:33.560But that goes along with the general tendency to hypergamy, which is preference for a mate who's at or above you in the social hierarchy or the socioeconomic hierarchy.
01:26:44.960It's really the social hierarchy, though.
01:26:47.040Which create enormous problems in different cultures, like in China.
01:26:50.600When we do analyses of the most popular dating site in China, you see that women want a very high percentage of women.
01:27:00.940I think it's in the 92 to 93 percentile approximately of women want men who own homes and own cars.
01:27:09.460But of the people on the dating sites who are males, only a very small percentage of them own homes and cars.
01:27:17.260Right, well, and we should also point out that women aren't actually going for the home or the car.
01:27:21.760They're going for the ability to produce the home and the car.
01:27:24.780Right, they're using them as secondary markers for competence, essentially.
01:27:29.060But, and then they, you know, you cited an interesting stat here, too, which I thought was worth talking about.
01:27:39.040On who should pay the bill on the first date.
01:27:43.64072 percent of women think that a man should pay the full bill on the first date.
01:27:50.460Now, remember, they've already selected this man, and what that means is that he's likely to be at or above them in the socioeconomic hierarchy, and perhaps slightly older.
01:27:59.180So, you know, in some sense, they can afford, he can afford to pay better than she can.
01:28:04.680But in any case, 82 percent of men think the same.
01:28:09.040And so men are playing the hypergamy game even more intensely than women are, at least with regards to that particular statistic.
01:28:17.740So, and this gets into the psychology of the pay gap, because many women feel okay about that, because they feel like, okay, men earn more than I do for the same work.
01:28:29.220When, when we, and in fact, that is not really accurate.
01:28:44.520And when dads become dads, they're far more likely to give up the things that they love to do that pay less, and do the things that they like to do a lot less, you know, quit that musician gig that paid much less, and do something responsible, quote unquote, like selling product Y.
01:29:03.660Yeah, and they, that's also in line with the data that show that, you know, most, most young men, many, many young men abuse alcohol.
01:29:12.940Most of them stop when, around 27, but that's also when they get married.
01:29:18.100And so, they, they stop engaging in primary gratification.
01:29:21.920And that's another example of that delay of gratification, as far as I'm concerned, that ability or willingness to sacrifice.
01:29:28.280Yes, and it's also part of your, your whole, your whole rule about the, you know, it's important to have stable structures, but it's also important to have flexibility and structures and part of it.
01:29:38.100You know, it's so funny that we, it's so rare that we can have a real conversation about this, because let's say that the pay gap, well, you know, it's certainly not obvious what degree the pay gap is caused by female hypergamy.
01:29:51.460Right, if men demanded of their dating partners that they earned more than they do, my guess is that there'd be a pay gap in favor of women, because men are incentivized to earn more, because if they don't, that the consequences on the, in the sexual market, but it's not the sexual, it's the intimate interpersonal market, right, to not be cynical about it, because it's, it's not all short-term mating that people are motivated by, quite the contrary.
01:30:20.660Well, they're motivated to take the dangerous, more dangerous, less desirable, farther away from, from home and family and interest, for that matter, jobs, because the payoff is disproportionately large for men who do so.
01:30:35.300And you see that, you know, you see, and it's exaggerated at the upper end of the distribution as well, which is what you pointed out with regards to the dating sites.
01:30:42.360You know, like, 70% of men are rated as below the 50th percentile in attractiveness by women.
01:30:49.280And so, not only are there rewards for earning more, there are disproportionate awards for men for earning more.
01:30:58.120And that goes along with the proposition that we put forward at the beginning of this conversation, I think that was recorded as well, that, you know, the most admired people are men, but the least admired people are men as well.
01:31:11.100And there's a lot more least admired men than there are most admired men.
01:31:15.260And that's true in brutal force on the dating scene, on the websites.
01:31:21.920And as I said, part of the reason that this is sort of all justified is because, you know, after all, men have privilege and, you know, and men are, you know, are, and the pay gap is really a reflection of the fact that, you know, men do less work and earn the same or, and...
01:31:39.820Yes, which is complete bloody nonsense.
01:31:43.360There is a gap, but the reason for the gap is very, very complex and involves many factors, including the ones we discussed here, which you take apart so nicely in your book, Why Men Earn More.
01:31:55.160I think you have 13 reasons that men earn more, you know, that's quite a few reasons, and privilege isn't one of them.
01:32:02.960It's actually 25 differences between the choices that men tend to make and the choices that women tend to make.
01:32:17.980Because it's such an interesting, it's such an interesting topic.
01:32:21.440Men are more likely to take hazardous jobs.
01:32:23.780They're more likely to take jobs like logging or trucking.
01:32:27.940They're more likely to take jobs that require them to work weekends or evenings.
01:32:32.780They're more likely to take jobs that have very little people contact, like being an engineer, but most men do like people contact, but many of the jobs with less people contact, like being an engineer or mathematician, tend to pay less.
01:32:49.880The men are more likely to work longer hours, so the US Bureau of Labor Statistics, when you hear somebody works full-time, that only means that they work 35 hours a week or more, not 40 hours a week, which is what you usually think of as full-time.
01:33:11.640Well, the average person who works 44 hours per week makes twice the money as somebody who works 35 hours a week.
01:33:23.180Well, I remember one of your stats, which was, I think, 10% more working hours is 20% more income, something like that.
01:33:29.700But that's a much more dramatic statistic.
01:33:31.86044 hours is twice as valuable as 35 hours.
01:33:34.920Yes, and men are much more likely to work that 44 hours or more per week.
01:33:40.700Right, and thus not be there for their children as is exposed in family court.
01:33:44.900Exactly, and that, of course, is very fascinating.
01:33:48.340It's what I call the father's catch-22, that dads learn to love the family by having to be away from the love of their family.
01:33:54.920But when the Pew Research Center asked dads who were full-time working dads, would you prefer to remain full-time working?
01:34:05.940Or if you had the option of leaving your job full-time and being full-time with the children, which would you prefer?
01:34:15.020However, 49% of dads said who worked full-time, so these are not sort of loser dads or dads not inclined to work, 49% of dads who work full-time said that they would prefer to be home with their children full-time and maybe work a little bit or not outside of the home.
01:34:33.860And yet, that question is almost never even asked of dads.
01:34:40.500Usually when middle and upper middle-class people are married and they have children, the mom generates three options.
01:34:58.920And option three is to work full-time.
01:35:00.760Or more accurately, if they're a working-class person to work two jobs, if they're more of a white-collar worker, they'll tend to sort of work more hours at the job that they're doing.
01:35:13.280And so that type of, these types of differences are not seen.
01:35:17.060And the easiest way to see these is that women who have never been married and never had children, they earn 117% of what men who have never been married and never had children earn.
01:35:30.760It's only when men get married and have children that they begin to do what you were talking about before and start taking on a commitment, a new responsibility.
01:36:11.620Even politically liberal people who normally believe in minimal sex roles, when it comes to the children being born, the mothers are much more likely to sort of, even if they're working full-time, remember we said full-time is 35 hours a week, they're much more likely to go from maybe working 45 hours a week before to doing a few things that are different.
01:36:32.300One is to working not only fewer hours, but finding a job that is closer to home so they can be more flexible.
01:36:41.060And we see this, the best way I think to understand the difference in the pay gap is to look at what happens with women who own their own businesses versus men who own their own businesses.
01:36:52.800So take two groups that are quite equal.
01:36:54.960They both have MBAs and so they're committed obviously to work.
01:37:01.080The Rochester Institute of Technology studied both groups of men and women with both MBAs who own their own business.
01:37:08.900Women earned only 49% of what men earned.
01:37:14.240And so the assumption when they started this was, wow, women who own their own business, they don't have the discrimination of discriminating male bosses.
01:37:25.720And so therefore they'll be valued more, they'll probably earn as much or more than their male counterparts.
01:38:51.020How did we get to an estate, Warren, where the given 25 differences is a lot of differences.
01:38:58.140And it doesn't make for a very big difference in pay, by the way.
01:39:02.180Even the most radical proponents of the unequal pay theory are struggling to come up with a figure that exceeds 15%.
01:39:10.800So 25 differences amounting to 15% isn't that much of a difference.
01:39:15.800But, you know, if the data are so clear that it's fathers who are driving this and it's relatively self-evident, I would say, if it was single guys that were driving this, you could make a case that it was for selfish, pleasure-seeking purposes, right?
01:39:33.900And that would fit pretty nicely into the privilege narrative, right?
01:39:37.320Power-hungry, greedy, selfish, short-sighted men with privilege make more money.
01:39:43.640It's like, well, wait a minute, it's fathers.
01:39:47.160And never married women who have never had children earn 117% of what never married men who have never had children earn.
01:40:00.660Never married women who have never had children, they are more likely to plan for their careers and they do earn more.
01:40:06.560And what's most astonishing is that never married women who have never had children have earned more than never married men who have never had children since the 1970s.
01:40:16.080Just now, it's just now, it's 117% more.
01:40:22.000It is not, never married women who have never had children, they tend to focus on their careers, whereas never married men who have never had children, they're much more likely to be able to do something like music or art.
01:40:37.020And gay men historically have often been very successful in art because they've been usually never married men who have never had children.
01:40:44.580And they've been able to afford to do things that were less likely and dependable to produce money.
01:40:50.460Oh, I've never heard that explanation before.
01:40:52.660That's, that's, that's quite an explanation.
01:40:56.640So, so let's delve into that a little bit more deeply, the, the time and money issue.
01:41:01.380So when women rank order their preferences when they have options, so these are the middle class, upper middle class women you talked about, they're going to go for more time.
01:41:11.360And I presume that they want more time to spend that with their kids.
01:42:06.700His wife starts losing a little bit of respect for him, wondering whether or not that this is going to result in a job down the line or whether some promise or belief that he has is going to manifest.
01:42:18.900Yeah, or if she's really the man he thought she was, she thought he was.
01:42:42.400And also a man, there's more flexibility with a man on the respect issue.
01:42:48.660There may not be more flexibility in terms of first falling in love on the beauty issue.
01:42:52.720Women have their burden that they have to that they have to live up to as well.
01:42:56.860But the but on the respect issue, it's very challenging for if a woman begins to lose respect.
01:43:03.960She begins to lose love and men sense this and therefore they oftentimes brag or boast or or, you know, overstate their potential in order to be able to make themselves attractive.
01:43:16.380And we see this in so many levels and the Lois Lane level, Lois Lane, you know, she had no interest in Clark Kent, but she fell in love with Superman.
01:43:26.020And once she fell in love with Superman, she wanted Superman to be able to cry and express emotions.
01:43:31.020But the man who did cry and express emotions and feelings and sensitive Clark Kent, she has zero interest in, you know, women are oftentimes say I'm opposed to war.
01:43:41.820But look at the she's much more likely to fall in love with the officer and a gentleman than she is the private and the pacifist.
01:43:48.480And, you know, and they we talk about this even in high school, most everybody's gone to high school and most high schools have football games and and the and the women are the cheerleaders go first and do it again for the guy that scores the touchdown or cat either by throwing the pass or catching the pass.
01:44:08.700And if the guy feels like it's too dangerous for him to play football and he leaves the football team, it's very rare that the that the cheerleader says, you know, I noticed how well how good your listening skills were when you were in the huddle and how warm and tender you are.
01:44:24.000I want to continue cheering for you. No, she tends to cheer for his replaceable part.
01:44:28.640Another number seven risking his life with a concussion or a spinal cord injury.
01:44:33.880Well, this is non this is non trivial behavior.
01:44:38.060I mean, because you look at the the football team, I've been writing about that recently.
01:44:42.300The football example is particularly interesting, especially because it's such a trope in American, especially in American popular culture.
01:44:51.400But what's so interesting, too, is the men will on the team will elevate their best player to the highest position of status, despite the fact that they all take a hit in terms of sexual attractiveness by doing so.
01:45:05.180I mean, maybe, you know, being on a winning team elevates a rising tide, lifts all boats.
01:45:10.860Well, definitely. But but it's still the case that they'll take a relative hit within the confines of the team to elect the man to the position where he's most likely to receive the favors of attraction from the most valuable, the most desired women.
01:45:25.440Yes, exactly. So, I mean, trying to puzzle out the role of sexual selection, thinking that through, because men, men select the women that men select the men that women select.
01:45:36.920It's very, very interesting to watch that happen.
01:45:40.180And yeah, absolutely. And you'll see this, you know, both sexes figure out very carefully.
01:45:45.320And when people say, well, men are more competitive than women, that's not really true.
01:45:50.260Both sexes are very competitive for getting having the goodies that lead them to be have the greatest amount of choice.
01:45:59.380So women will compete with other women about how they dress, what their dresses look like.
01:46:03.780If a woman is at a party and she's interested in one or two of the guys at that party and a really attractive woman comes through the door,
01:46:10.720she will assess what her chances are and what, you know, how she should position herself to make sure she gets the contact with the man that she really wants to make contact with.
01:46:21.580And the men will do the same type of thing around, you know, the things that they feel will lead a woman to be attracted to them.
01:46:28.860Well, this also makes it very, it's very difficult for men to figure out, this is another reason why I question the long-term viability of,
01:46:38.480not that I truly question it, but these questions arise in my mind, the long-term viability of mixed-sex workplaces,
01:46:46.460the rules for competing with other men are pretty clear.
01:46:50.660The rules for competing with women are not clear at all.
01:47:40.340Well, why that would be rewarding to her isn't that obvious.
01:47:43.000And I think that's part of the reason why so many women bail out of high-pressure situations, jobs, when they hit their 30s.
01:47:50.600I mean, part of it is that they would rather be with their family, and for obvious reasons.
01:47:55.620But the other unspoken elephant in the room is always, well, why would it be particularly rewarding for a woman to attain status in a masculine hierarchy?
01:48:12.180But that confers no attractiveness advantage.
01:48:16.140Whereas for men, it accrues a tremendous attractiveness advantage.
01:48:19.800It's definitely disproportionate male versus female.
01:48:23.520I would say, though, that if a man has a choice between two women, and they're both equally attractive, and their personalities are pretty much the same, etc., and one is more successful than the other, the man is likely to be more attracted to the more successful woman.
01:48:40.040But he's also likely to be afraid of rejection by that more successful woman.
01:49:19.260And I think that—well, I've made light of that by teasing my class, my students.
01:49:27.420You know, I said, well, what's the joke?
01:49:30.640Well, you're perfectly suitable as a companion, but in no way should your genetic material be allowed to propagate itself into the next generation.
01:50:40.120But that's easily foregone in the moment.
01:50:41.760And the challenge of it is that the more, so boys who are usually doing less, young men who are doing less well in school, who are not the football players that are getting the 15 different women coming up to them and risking rejection,
01:50:57.640who are not the student body presidents, who are not standing out in one way or the other, who are not getting great grades, not part of the honor society, et cetera.
01:51:05.060The non-standout men, the ones that are oftentimes dad-deprived, that have minimal postponed gratification and so on, and they tend to do badly in school or drop out of school.
01:51:17.460Those boys feel like losers, and they know that women tend to not date losers.
01:51:23.160They tend to date winners, and they end up in the unemployed, and what women are looking for, and much more likely to be in their families, live with their families, 66% more likely.
01:52:09.560And those women are therefore more likely, those guys rather, are much more likely to turn to pornography because they sense they're being rejected by women, and then they turn to this beautiful woman that they can be turned on by.
01:52:24.540The challenge with pornography is that the more you get into it, the more you tend to be stimulated by more and more risky things, and more and more salacious things, or things that are...
01:52:35.680Yeah, well, that's because novelty enhances pleasure.
01:52:40.140So that's the addictive element of it.
01:52:43.300And then the female who is interested in that guy and does come over to be with him physically, she often feels like this guy is more interested in something that happened in the pornographic things that he's been watching.
01:52:57.940She feels like an object, and because she is being treated like an object...
01:53:02.860Well, and also, those are the men who aren't going to be particularly sophisticated in their treatment of women, because how could they be?
01:53:11.960And so the pornography ends up haunting them on multiple levels, and leads them to often turn back to pornography to avoid continuing rejection, and only convinces them that a real-life woman is somebody that he would fail on one level or another with.
01:53:52.760He was a loser in high school, by his own admission, by every single category you could possibly generate.
01:53:58.000And so it's a study in loser psychology.
01:54:02.660But it's really complex, because he was a loser who was extremely intelligent and unbelievably creative, and who had two brothers who were probably more intelligent, more creative than him, although also more psychopathological.
01:54:58.400So he's rejected by the feminine as such.
01:55:02.120He draws these pictures of bird-headed women with teeth, you know, and they're powerful, big thighs, big rear end, like powerful, physically powerful, intimidating women, like mothers.
01:55:16.400Draws sometimes these characters of little tiny men climbing up the legs of these huge tree-like women.
01:55:23.280But they're very aggressive and domineering.
01:55:27.860And the reason for that, at least in part, is because every woman he ever approached was rejecting and aggressive in the extreme.
01:55:36.820Treated him with nothing but contempt.
01:55:38.680And then he says in an unbelievably memorable piece of the documentary,
01:55:43.080That all changed when I got successful.
01:55:46.420And you can just hear the resentment and the bitterness in his voice, even though it did change.
01:55:51.020And he wasn't that old when he became successful.
01:57:30.840But I wouldn't say that compassion is what's primarily elicited by the documentary.
01:57:35.740And that goes back to this discussion we had right at the beginning about, you know, what kind of empathy we have for the men who aren't making it.
01:57:47.840And the answer seems to be very, very little.
02:00:12.880You're looking for kindness down the hierarchy, right?
02:00:16.620So that's how does she treat people who are social inferiors, so to speak, at least in that context, like waiters.
02:00:23.440And then with regards to previous relationships, is she capable of some self-analysis or is it always the guy's fault?
02:00:31.880That reminds me of that Atlantic Monthly article, one of them.
02:00:35.300I'm unfortunately can't remember who wrote it, but was this woman in her late 40s detailing out all the high quality men that she had rejected many, many, many men by her own account.
02:00:47.040And during the entire article, there wasn't any recognition whatsoever of any time when it might have been her.
02:00:55.800It was like, I read these 40 men didn't live up to my standards.
02:00:59.900It's like, well, after the fifth one, didn't you start thinking maybe the problem was on the other side of the dating table?
02:01:10.620So but so what are you looking for there exactly?
02:01:13.460And why did you why did you bring that up at that point?
02:01:17.040Well, because one of the ways that you can be involved in the game of marriage in a way that is positive is by making the choice of the woman differently than what we tend to do.
02:01:48.700I talked to Randy Thornhill recently, one of the world's preeminent biologists.
02:01:53.420And before we get to thinking that this sexual attractiveness is nothing more than mere shallow mindedness and impulsive gratification,
02:02:02.020is all the cues of sexual attractiveness are tightly associated with physical health and fecundity, which is the ability to procreate.
02:02:09.480And so even if men are blinded by beauty, which which I do believe is true enough, there are reasons for that at the deepest possible level still have to do with the desire to continue the human species.
02:02:25.600So it's it's shallow in one sense, but not in another.
02:02:29.760But your point is, there are other markers that are characterological that are more subtle that need to be taken into account.
02:02:37.920Both sexes have very huge reproductive draws.
02:02:42.580I mean, every from an insect right on up through human beings, women tend to procreate and have children with it with the alpha male.
02:02:51.940You know, a good example of this is buck elks.
02:02:53.700And among buck elks, the females, 85 percent of them will have reproduced with the male that has the biggest rack.
02:03:02.920But what it takes to get that biggest rack is an exhaustion of 30 percent of the minerals, nutrients and calcium in the buck elk.
02:03:11.760So the second that he reproduces, if he doesn't get rid of his rack immediately, he's likely to die before winter sets in and he's able to replenish the the nutrients and the and the minerals and so on.
02:03:24.560So his his his his his rack was very productive for being able to procreate.
02:03:32.520It was very productive for being able to attract the female.
02:03:35.780But it was also his weakness that is and that's very symbolic of men, that men's weakness is our facade of strength because it was strength because we could use that rack with a not me.
02:03:47.660But the buck elks could use that rack to, you know, to to get rid of other predators or people that were the female didn't want to protect the female when she was creating the child and so on.
02:03:59.280But once but he was also being used for being part of the next generation's benefit of producing the next generation's machine.
02:04:09.060And as you said, when we you know, we once we have children, we really live for the next generation.
02:04:13.680And so now the next question becomes, as humans, are we are do we want to create more options for ourselves?
02:04:22.740And so and are we at a point now where survival is mastered enough in the middle and upper middle class that we have with them?
02:04:31.260Then we are chosen merely for our success.
02:04:35.080And I think the best explanation of that comes in Japan, where the millennials in Japan have a game called Kuroshi.
02:04:43.800And of course, Kuroshi means death at the desk or death from overwork.
02:04:47.780And the game, each person has a little Kuroshi figure and they compete to get to the top of the ladder.
02:04:53.660It might be the political ladder, might be the economic ladder, might be the religious ladder.
02:04:56.860And as they compete to get to the top of the ladder, the one who gets to the top of the ladder first commits suicide, not in real life, but in the game.
02:05:05.840And the point that the Japanese millennials are communicating with each other is that the that what we did to become that successful man who was who was the most attracted, who was the most able able to be eligible for sex and for love is we unbecame a human doing climbing to the top of the ladder.
02:05:29.680And we I'm sorry, we unbecame a human being, we didn't even think of ourselves as a human being, that's why we're committing suicide, we have just just by competing to be at the top of the ladder.
02:05:42.520We've worried about what position we wanted, how to have working more hours, pleasing the boss, pleasing the corporation, not not selling something we wanted or doing something we wanted.
02:05:54.360And we we've lost we never even considered ourselves as a human being.
02:05:58.660And so now we Japanese millennials are going to start looking at the the loss of ourselves as human doings, loss of ourselves, rather, as human beings.
02:06:08.860And that is and that's the in my opinion, the where we need to consider going that as we have children with this is balancing act of do our helping our children see the value of being that artist, that painter, that's doing what you love to do, combined with, is it creating enough income to be responsible to your family to do that.
02:06:37.000And, and, and, and, and yes, it will lose you some women, but if you're developing emotional skills and emotional intelligence, that may not attract as many women as the football player that risks his life and spinal cord injury, but it may attract the type of woman you want.
02:06:55.900And for me, for me, for me, for me, for me, for me, for me, for me, for me, for me between marriages, when, when I would go out with women, they would, you know, I would share with them what I did.
02:07:04.920But part of that was sort of redefining equality for them.
02:07:09.460And it was not offering to pay for the bill, the whole bill on the first date.
02:07:13.380It was talking to them about the options, like I can pay on the first date, and maybe you can do something like cook dinner for me on the second date type of thing.
02:07:22.060But I'll tell you, many, many times I feared, not many times I feared, I know a few times that I said something like that, that I knew there was going to be no sex that evening, whereas otherwise it probably would have been.
02:07:34.240And so, you know, it's a risk that you take inside of yourself.
02:07:38.720But for me, what I wanted to select for was a woman who wanted me more for who I was and less for what status I had or what predictable status I had.
02:07:48.360So, well, what do you think? What do you think about the advice that I advice?
02:07:55.280I don't really think I give advice exactly. I'm trying to explore ideas and that exploration has certain consequences.
02:08:02.460But certainly, you know, I do, as is my role as a psychologist, I do, you know, encourage the people who are reading me to do what they can with what they have to the best of their ability.
02:08:14.140And I don't see that we have a truly viable alternative to essentially classic sex roles.
02:08:24.580I know they're under pressure for all sorts of different reasons, including the ones that you've outlined.
02:08:29.320But, you know, in some sense, it's the only game in town.
02:08:34.920Now, what can I mean, there are things we can do, though.
02:08:39.260You talked about Japan, for example, where they've really invested heavily in vocational training, which seems to me to be a no brainer.
02:08:49.040It's like maybe without having to revamp the entire relationship between men and women, we could say, well, wouldn't it be good social policy for everyone concerned to pay some attention to the vast majority of men who could use vocational training, for example, as an avenue to success in all domains of life?
02:09:10.000And why are we so unable to do that when the Japanese can do it?
02:09:14.180Yes, we really are. There are so many things like that that we can do.
02:09:19.500I mean, schools, for example, we could have one of the things I've suggested to the White House, both of the Trump administration and also under the Biden administration, is starting a male teacher corps in which men are trained to be teachers,
02:09:34.140particularly in dad-deprived areas, school districts, and they get free scholarships, they get full scholarships for college.
02:09:43.460But yet, in exchange for that full scholarship for college, they have to serve three or four years as a teacher in a school district that has few male teachers.
02:09:52.780Another thing I've suggested to both, and so you think that's, I'm thinking of objections to that selection on the basis of gender, let's say, which I'm, you know, pretty much temperamentally imposed to, but in some sense, but this, this is a data-driven suggestion.
02:10:11.280The data suggests that there are areas that we, so it's differentiated, it's not ideologically driven, it's a differentiated solution.
02:10:19.440There are, there's data indicating that the provision of male role models in places that are deprived of those, the addition of male role models in the domains that are deprived of those would be of benefit to everyone concerned.
02:10:33.720And so that's a targeted social policy.
02:10:38.280Precisely. And in fact, it's even more complex than that.
02:10:40.500The way that I've suggested it is that you don't just get males like me.
02:10:45.220I consider myself more of a nurturer connector male.
02:10:49.640You also get more traditional males so that no matter who your son is, if you're, if you've grown up in a home without a male role model in the home, without a biological father, particularly in the home, that you have, that your son, no matter what he's prone toward, what his unique self is,
02:11:07.680that he's able to go to find a role model, find a role model that is, that it's not just another nurturer connector male, but, you know, a construction worker or a man that's retired from a more of a profession that was more traditional, like a logger or whatever, firefighter, and that your son is able to see that possibility.
02:11:32.060And then also the nurturer connector male as a possibility.
02:11:38.060Another suggestion that I think is by far the most important one that I made to both administrations is the, the importance of creating a father warrior program, WARR.
02:11:50.060And because every generation, you know, historically speaking, as you, as you read in the boy crisis book about the purpose void that men have, by no longer being as needed as soldiers and no longer being as needed as full-time breadwinners, that the male have the option of seeing himself as possibly involved in some, and I lost where I was going with that.
02:12:17.320You, you, you were talking about the male warrior idea and the need for purpose and the social policy associated with that.
02:12:25.220Yes. And so I, what I've suggested to both White Houses is the importance of creating a father warrior program where we're saying we need young men to be full of fully involved, learn all the traits of being a responsible, emotionally connected father.
02:12:42.580Uh, we need women to, to, to, to, to value this in men as well.
02:12:49.160And how would that work practically speaking?
02:12:51.400Like, uh, I'm always thinking about incentives.
02:12:53.640Like if we wanted to incentivize young men to be responsible fathers, which I think is exactly the right role to be playing in every, virtually every role that a man plays is the role of responsible father.
02:13:06.320That's the right role, not everyone, but virtually everyone, how do you incentivize that at the level of social policy in, in, in, in a practical way?
02:13:15.280The number one thing you do is you honor it.
02:13:17.840Um, so for example, when we had each generation had its war and we said, uncle Sam needs you.
02:13:24.540When men are told they are needed, that gives them purpose.
02:13:30.420Okay, so how do we, okay, so how do we, um, say fathers, you are needed without saying single mothers, you're inadequate because that's the killer, right?
02:13:43.460That's the killer right there because one implies the other or that's the theory.
02:13:47.540So, you know, and this is, uh, this is a shoal upon which our culture is, is wrecking itself is how do we reward behavior that is eminently pro-social in the broadest possible sense of the word without punishing, simultaneously punishing those who are excluded from that, but struggling to do the best under the conditions that have presented themselves to them.
02:14:11.840Absolutely. We, we say to mothers two things. One is we honor mothers for being just overwhelmed. I mean, I've never, uh, between marriages, I dated a number of almost all the women I dated were women who had children.
02:14:25.660The word that they used most frequently was overwhelmed. Um, and the, and so many of the mothers, I tended to, to date very bright women. And so they often felt caught between, they could do better
02:14:39.140in work. They could go further. They could go farther. Uh, they weren't up to the, their full level, but, and they could do better as mothers. They felt guilty as mothers that they didn't have enough time for their work and they didn't have enough time.
02:14:51.760Yes. Yes. Guilt all the time. There are, whatever they're doing is inadequate because they're not spending enough time with their kids and they're not spending enough time on their work. And both of those are true in some sense.
02:15:01.640Absolutely. And when they would, they would say, I want to spend more time with you, but I'm caught between my work and my, um, the other trade and, and, and, and my, and my love interest. And so, um, and so what the, the, the larger social message that needs to come out, come, come out to men is men, women need your help. Women do not need, not, we must not leave women, uh, to feel like they have.
02:15:29.580So is it women or mothers, mothers? I'm sorry. No, it's okay. I mean, it's just, it's important to get it right. Right. I mean, women, you might not need men's help. Mothers, you do. And so do your children.
02:15:41.920Right. Exactly. So that you're, so that when you focus on mothers being overwhelmed, every mother hears that. When you say to a mother, when a mother hears, we're now going to be emphasizing the importance of dads getting in there to balance the picture with you, to help you out, to be, to, to, to not have you have the entire burden.
02:16:04.720And mothers do hear that in a positive way. If you are simultaneously saying, which I think is a hundred percent true, that you have just been, that you've been overwhelmed and you've been, we respect and honor the fact that you've, you've, you've, you've taken so much responsibility.
02:16:20.500Um, but it is not helpful for you to have, to be pulled in so many directions. It is not helpful for the children.
02:16:30.400It's not optimal for the children. Um, and it's not helpful for the dad because the dad is experiencing a purpose void, a feeling not needed and unwanted. And men with purpose voids, uh, tend to, uh, look for a purpose.
02:16:42.500Yes. Yes. Tend to, um, purpose and, or, um, look for, uh, be, uh, be negative sometimes in their purpose.
02:16:50.180And we need to help mothers and fathers in the whole country understand.
02:16:54.440Okay. So this sounds great. So why the hell don't you have any traction with Trump or with Biden? Cause that pretty much exhausts the options.
02:17:04.260Well, I, I, you know, with, with Trump, they, uh, the Trump administration said they were very excited about it.
02:17:09.440They, uh, asked me to write up a speech that Trump would give and he never gave it.
02:17:13.920Um, and so, um, with any idea why, I mean, you'd think it would have been useful to him.
02:17:20.540You you'd think given his constituency, I would have thought it would have been a hundred percent useful to him.
02:17:26.120I, you know, I made the case that there are about 20 million parents that have children, uh, that, um, boys rather, uh, that are in failure to launch mode in some way, shape or form.
02:17:36.480Um, and that these mothers care more about their sons and they care about their party label, uh, that this could open an entire themselves, maybe even.
02:17:44.380Yes, exactly. And I said this to both the Biden administration and the Trump administration.
02:17:48.560Uh, the Biden administration was at least, you know, the 14 people that I met with at the white house and with HHS.
02:17:54.540Uh, they said, uh, they were very, all to a person, extremely enthusiastic, uh, with the Democrats.
02:18:01.060I've gotten much more of a resistance, um, when the white house council on gender policy, uh, was created.
02:18:06.920And I objected to that, not including boys and men and fathers, um, and, uh, and said that you couldn't possibly say you were in favor of diversity and inclusion when you excluded fathers and boys and men.
02:18:25.840Uh, but, you know, but it's one thing if you just say boys and men are not important, it's another thing to say.
02:18:31.580Yeah. I'm in favor of diversity and inclusion. And then to say that the second mission of the gender policy council, um, is to have racial justice and not understand that racial justice can, that the single biggest group of people who are having challenges in the, in the culture are black males.
02:18:48.680And, you know, if you, if you go to a home city.
02:18:51.700Which is a prime example of the intersectionality that's being touted as crucial to the development of our entire culture.
02:19:28.040Yes, I don't even want to go to systemic racism.
02:19:30.920But if, if the, if the goal of the white house gender policy council, um, is to have racial justice as it says it is.
02:19:42.760But then you wouldn't, but then they go ahead and exclude, uh, black males from racial justice and only focus on black females.
02:19:52.900That is undermining racial justice because these, as we know, since the 1965 with the Moynihan report, um, the, when we did studies of inner city crime and the fear when, uh, Patrick Moynihan went to do that study was, oh my goodness, he's going to be blaming black people.
02:20:10.620In fact, he ended up finding that it was not blacks per se, uh, that we're creating the crime.
02:20:16.340And it was just that one 25, at that point in history in 1965, it was only 25% of the children who were being raised in families, um, were without father involvement.
02:20:27.980And almost all of the crimes that were being committed were from the, the dad deprived children.
02:20:34.200Well, now that hasn't changed that, that, well, that hasn't changed except one thing has changed.
02:20:38.740The percentage of children who are raised in dad deprived mode in the black community has gone way up 25%.
02:20:45.980What do you think of the counter arguments to that, that have been raised recently that black men are just as involved with their children.
02:20:51.640And it's just that it's in ways that the, you know, privileged white community, Jesus Christ, isn't recognizing.
02:21:00.160And that that's just another form, that idea that, you know, the black father is less engaged, just, just another racist trope.
02:21:07.580No, some black father, there are, um, a significant number of black fathers who are involved with their children.
02:21:14.400That is not where those children, that those are not the children that are having problems.
02:21:18.920As long as the black mother is also involved with the children.
02:21:22.780Um, so when, whenever you have that, um, and, and of course the, the social policies we were talking about before, you know, the, of, of giving money to the women, infants and children program and other program where the, the female who did the black female or the white female who did not have, um, a father in the home, she would be helped.
02:21:43.760And if the father was not in the home, that did reinforce very significantly, um, the propensity of the mother to say, let's say the father wasn't earning very much money.
02:21:54.560So the father would, if you, if you live away from me, um, we'll be able to get government support.
02:21:59.760And so then that right incentive, um, for living, watch your incentives, right.
02:22:04.960And we have to realize today, it's not just that the, um, African-American families now have more than 70% of the children who are raised with minimal or no father involvement, or what I call dad deprived children.
02:22:16.660But also at the time of the Moynihan report in 1965, there was only 3.2% of Caucasian families whose children were living in dad deprived situations.
02:22:28.860Now that's gone up to 35% in Caucasian families.
02:22:33.440And so we had this enormous dad deprivation in it's in these dad deprived, uh, families that, um, watch what's going to happen in the fall.
02:22:42.700We're going to have significant numbers of school shootings.
02:22:45.480And one of the things that we see with school shooters, um, in the, in the 21st century, every school shooter who shot, shot 10 or more, um, people killed 10 or more people.
02:22:57.020Um, we, um, when we look at, when you look at the prison population, it's 93% male.
02:23:02.280And the great majority of those males are, um, dad deprived males.
02:23:07.220Um, I, I think I've never experienced something that was more touching for me than when I ran for governor and I spoke of California.
02:23:14.400And I spoke around that a few prison populations.
02:23:16.680And I talked to these prison populations, almost all male.
02:23:20.260The first question I would ask is, you know, how many of you had an involved father in about three or 4% of the hands of the prison population, but would go up.
02:23:28.680And then I would talk to them about all the, the, the things that dads do that are different from what moms tend to do, like the teasing, like the postponed wedding occasion, like the rough housing and what the psychological value of those were for the children's growth and development.
02:23:43.300And I had these guys with tattoos and, um, you know, and muscles that I'll never have, uh, coming up to me and saying, crying and saying, I never realized I was worth anything.
02:23:54.880I thought I was better off probably in prison because I was the worthless person in the family.
02:24:00.200And suddenly for the first time, I'm feeling like I want to get out of prison to help my children, uh, not have the problems that I had and not go and, and not make the mistakes that I made.
02:24:10.440Um, and so there's this enormous desire on the part of men to know that they're valuable as fathers.
02:24:17.820You know, my, my sense as a clinical psychologist has always been that a kid has to have one role model sometime in their life to, to make it.
02:24:30.140They have to have someone to mimic or they can't make it.
02:24:33.160Now you can get that in a variety of ways.
02:24:34.720I remember reading Angela's ashes, it's a great book by Frank McCourt and his dad was a recalcitrant alcoholic who drank the family's livelihood and health away.
02:24:45.580It was awful, but he kind of separated his dad into good dad and bad dad and bad dad was drunk evening dad and good dad was sober morning dad.
02:24:56.640And he got his mimicry from good sober morning dad, you know, so you can, you can pick it up in bits and pieces from different places.
02:25:04.900But if you're, even if you have an intact nervous system, you know, and you're not suffering from burdens right at the point of your birth from, from deprivation that's, that began before you were even around.
02:25:17.620You need to have at least one model in your life that shows you what the good version of you could be, because otherwise, how the hell do you know what it is?
02:25:34.220Let me, and let me to that effect, let me address the females in the audience here listening to this that are single moms and, and what can you do?
02:25:42.860So the number one thing that you can do is take a look at the differences between dad style parenting and mom style parenting, because oftentimes the things that dads do look like they're not caring about the children, the things like teasing, the things like roughhousing, the things that letting the children take risks, like, you know, climbing the trees, like we talked about, they all seem like this, the tough love decisions are often seen, you see the toughness without the love very frequently.
02:26:10.420And so take a very careful look at that.
02:26:15.240Make sure that if you're still, if you still have the dad at all around or available, that you get into family dinner night discussions where everybody learns how to listen to everybody else's perspective in the family.
02:26:28.540Learn how to do a negotiating of that, that checks and balance parenting.
02:26:33.640But it's absolutely impossible to get the biological father involved, and I'm afraid that the biological father, children do better with the biological father than they do with the stepfather, mostly for the...
02:26:44.640Step parent elevates risk for abuse by a hundredfold, if I remember correctly.
02:26:48.660It's a very, stepfathers almost always are never allowed to be more than advisors.
02:26:54.880If you do have a stepfather, work on that issue that I talk about in the Boy Crisis book on how to engage the stepfather as a real equal, assuming that he's a responsible and loving man.
02:27:08.020But if all those things fail, make sure you get your child at the age appropriate time into Cub Scouts.
02:27:15.180Cub Scouts involve children involved in Cub Scouts for two or more years have a very significant increase in character development over children that are involved in Cub Scouts minimally and or not at all.
02:27:29.320Boy Scouts are a wonderful deconstruction of masculinity.
02:27:33.440They've really figured out how to bring out the best in boys, faith-based communities.
02:27:39.660Children who are in faith-based communities, make sure your faith-based leader gets your son involved in small groups with other boys his age.
02:27:50.540And make sure he encourages your son and all the boys in the group to talk about their feelings and their fears so that they can see that they're not alone in those feelings and fears.
02:28:02.900Make sure your children are involved in what I call the liberal arts of sports.
02:28:08.300But by the liberal arts of sports, I mean team sports, also pickup team sports, and also sports where you have to develop your own skills.
02:28:19.340You're part of a team like in gymnastics or in tennis, but you're not interacting with the team all the time.
02:28:25.820Each of those things will develop in your son different types of skill sets.
02:28:29.480The most important one that oftentimes moms don't realize the value of is the value of pickup team sports.
02:28:37.160Let your son or daughter be at the school without your supervision.
02:28:43.340Let them pick up a game where they have to decide without somebody supervising them how big the court should be, the basketball court should be, should be half size, full size.
02:28:52.720One of the fouling rules, who do you check, is perfect developmental skills for being an entrepreneur and being able to make decisions without supervision.
02:29:04.640Obviously, team sports are pretty obvious what their benefits are.
02:29:07.940And developing skills that are dependent on this team are part of the liberal arts of sports.
02:29:16.260So spend time in the Boy Crisis book, looking at what you can do as a single mom.
02:29:21.940One of the things I liked about your books and why men earn more as well is that they're full of information, but they're also practical and they have practical advice.
02:29:34.320Here's things you can actually do, which is something people apparently appreciate about my books.
02:29:39.080So it's nice to have it detailed down to the level of action.
02:29:42.320I want to close because I know we've exhausted you.
02:29:45.140Um, what, why did you receive such, I would like to know why you think you didn't get more traction with the Trump people, but then I would like you to tell me what's up with the Democrats.
02:29:56.140Why didn't you get, why did you get rejected so out of hand when you put forward these perfectly reasonable propositions, which in principle should be in accordance with what they're claiming to support?
02:30:07.940Yes, even the Trump people, this is what I'm going to say now is 10 times, 10 fold this issue with the Biden people, but even the Trump people were fearful that the single mother would feel criticized and they were afraid of losing that, the support from her.
02:30:24.400And, um, and, um, and so that was, that was what I heard behind the scenes was the, the gap between, um, it being very much recommended by the people that I spoke with versus actually having a, um, a presentation delivered by Trump.
02:30:39.380The other thing was that they were fearful that it would, it would call attention to Trump's failed marriages and, um, and his, his womanizing, and they didn't want to open that door.
02:30:51.060So those were the, um, from the Biden side, um, it was like, it was, well, the best example of this is when I went to Iowa and I interviewed, um, nine of the presidential candidates that were Democrats.
02:31:06.440And most of them, um, were very excited, especially Andrew Yang and, um, um, uh, Senator Hickenlooper, John Hickenlooper were very excited about what I was saying.
02:31:16.860Andrew Yang already had a mastery of what was, um, what the problems were with boys.
02:31:22.620He was on the tip of maybe being able potentially to talk about the issue.
02:31:26.080Um, while, when I finished talking with both Andrew Yang and, um, and Hickenlooper, um, especially with Andrew Yang, the female, um, campaign manager came up to me and said, I'm sorry, Warren.
02:31:39.020We just cannot have him talk about these issues. This will alienate our feminist base. This will alienate, uh, women who are single moms. Um, it will not, um, and we want, we want also many of the women who are divorced.
02:31:52.560We want them not to feel that they won't have the choice of going off and starting a new life and bringing their children to a new location with a new man. Um, and so we are afraid of losing that bait.
02:32:04.040Those two. Yes. Well, and to hell with the old man. Yes. And so it was really, um, and they were honest with me. That's the good news. The bad news is that, um, this was the case. And so with the, when the Biden administration, um, created the white house gender policy council, which was a day or two before he was actually inordinated.
02:32:22.940Um, the, um, the, um, and it was focused on, you know, women and girls and, um, you know, and, and both black women and girls and white women and girls. I protested and, um, and talked with Jen Klein, who's the co-chair about this many times.
02:32:38.940And her only answer over and over again, Ms. Warren, um, uh, president Biden cares about men and boys, Warren, president Biden cares about a father, the fathers and my responses, my, my constant hammering of her about, well, then, then it should be written into the white house gender policy council to create these father warrior programs, to create these, um,
02:33:00.940these programs of dozens of dozens of which I suggested, uh, that could, um, increase and improve the lives of boys and men. And I was met with no answer. Like just.
02:33:12.540So what, what's the problem? What's the problem? As far as you're concerned, we might as well have it right out. What the hell's going on?
02:33:19.060In, in Jen Klein's case and in the, um, in the, in the feminist, uh, in the, the liberal political leadership, uh, in the Democrats, it is just a fundamentally,
02:33:30.440and totally honest belief that, um, women have it worse than men, that boys and men, and the, the constant image that comes up for the political liberals is Warren.
02:33:44.800Right. So it's the gender, it's the classification of the world by sex. That's the problem. It isn't who has problems and how do we help them? It's, it's the classification first and the problem.
02:33:56.740Second. It's, we live in a patriarchal world dominated by men who made the rules to benefit men at the expense of women. The proof of that one is that, um, look at who's at the top of the political ladder. Look at who's the top of the, um, corporate ladder. Uh, look at who's the top of even the religious ladder.
02:34:14.340Right. So it's right back to where we started, which is identify that tiny minority of men who are hyper successful, generalize that to the masculine, uh, universe at large and to hell with those that are in the middle or the bottom, which is, so what is that hypergamy in female politics? Is it the same thing?
02:34:34.940And it's, it is not the realization that the men at the top are often at the top. They're earning that more money, not because they feel more fulfilled or this is their choice. They felt obligated to earn money that somebody else spent while they died sooner.
02:34:51.280Right. So it's not even true for the people who have the privilege, much less true for men anywhere else on the hierarchy.
02:34:57.240Correct. And when I say to them, things like, you know, it isn't male privilege. Do you consider it male privilege for every, um, generation during their war to train the boys and the men, uh, to be, uh, the ones that died in war so that you could be protected and saved? And it's just like closed mouth. Uh, what about the, um, the legislation?
02:35:23.560Oh, yes. Yes. There are no shortage of men who are not thrilled about the fact that they are conscripted for two years and the women aren't.
02:35:30.980Now, you know, my sense is, well, the women pay their dues in childbirth and pregnancy and, you know, but nonetheless, it's, it's an issue and it's producing no shortage of resentment and friction among young Koreans.
02:35:43.580And here in the United States, you know, it's still the law, um, which is probably the most unconstitutional law that most violates the 14th Amendment's equal protection laws.
02:35:53.320It is still the law in the United States that your son who's 18 must register for the draft.
02:35:58.740If he doesn't, um, he's, could be fined a quarter million dollars.
02:36:02.280He could be put in prison for a year or two.
02:36:04.800He can, in 42 states, he can lose his driver's license if he doesn't register for the draft.
02:36:11.180Um, he, and there's a whole series of other, he could never go to a school that gets federal money, which is virtually every school, including private schools.
02:36:18.800This is all the punishment that men have, male, your son has if he's 18 and doesn't register for the draft.
02:36:25.420The punishment for females is zero, uh, because they don't have to register for the draft.
02:36:32.300Like the, the old fashioned patriarchal part of me thinks, I think two ways at the same time, you know, unfortunately about that.
02:36:40.260I think, you know, I do believe to, to some degree that that's the balancing of the scales, you know, that as you pointed out in your own book, you know, men die in war and women die in childbirth.
02:36:54.080Now they don't die in childbirth so much anymore, but they did.
02:36:57.220And, and, and in, in great numbers and was terrible pain and, and, and all of the privation that went along with that obligatory responsibility, tremendous amount of that has been ameliorated.
02:37:08.260Not all of it, but a tremendous amount.
02:37:13.000And so, but, but having said that, well, it doesn't sit well.
02:37:19.420The idea of women drafted for frontline combat doesn't sit well with me.
02:37:24.180Yes, and I think there's an answer to that, which is we don't have to draft people for frontline combat.
02:37:31.540There are, there are, there are men that are not suited to that.
02:37:33.760There are women that are not suited to that, but we're, but I think it's a good solution would be either you don't have registration for the draft, which creates a different set of problems and not having a ready group ready.
02:37:45.660But say you, but you have people register at the age of 18 for some type of service of say six months or more.
02:37:54.620And, and, and then you, you mark off the type of service that your personality, that your, that your contribution can make.
02:38:03.100You could be a healthcare frontline worker.
02:38:05.940You can be a volunteer in this way or that way.
02:38:08.740So if there's mandatory service, it's mandatory for all, but the service itself can differ and, and, and everyone could have some choice in that.
02:38:17.280And who knows, maybe there'd be enough people pick frontline combat to fill the necessary places.