The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast - 192. Individuality, Autonomy, and the PPC ｜ Maxime Bernier

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00:02:51.020 Welcome to the Jordan B. Peterson podcast. I'm Mikayla Peterson. This is season four, episode 46.

00:02:56.640 On today's episode, dad's joined by Canadian politician and leader of the People's Party

00:03:02.340 of Canada, the Honourable Maxime Bernier. He was not involved in the Canadian election debate

00:03:08.280 and he really should have been. So as a candidate for the prime ministership, dad had him on his show.

00:03:14.580 Maxime shared his vision for the future of Canada and how his party is tackling today's political

00:03:19.140 landscape. He's the only candidate currently that's really pushing for freedom. They discussed free

00:03:25.240 markets, governmental outreach, monetary policy, the dismantling of classical conservative ideals,

00:03:31.600 and of course, the upcoming Canadian election. Don't forget to share this with a friend and thank

00:03:35.820 you for listening. This Canadian election is really important and I think it's going to determine

00:03:40.000 whether or not Canada opens up or kind of continues to disintegrate. I'm voting for Maxime Bernier.

00:03:45.960 Enjoy this episode.

00:03:55.240 Hello everyone. I'm pleased to have with me today one of the contenders for the Prime

00:04:12.240 Ministership of Canada, the Honourable Maxime Bernier, the leader of a new Canadian political

00:04:16.560 party, the People's Party of Canada. He was Minister of Industry, Minister of Foreign Affairs,

00:04:22.280 and Minister of State for Small Business and Tourism in Stephen Harper's Conservative government.

00:04:27.580 And he was an MP for the writing of BOSE for 13 years and is currently running for election

00:04:32.160 there. In 1985, Mr. Bernier earned a Bachelor of Commerce degree from the Université du Québec

00:04:37.860 de Montréal and entered law at the University of Ottawa. He was called to the Quebec Bar in

00:04:42.980 1990. He worked for a variety of financial and banking institutions before becoming Executive Vice

00:04:48.780 President of the Montreal Economic Institute in 2005. He ran for leadership of the Progressive

00:04:55.200 Conservative Party in 2017. That's generally Canada's dominant or second-place party. Finishing

00:05:01.820 second to Andrew Scheer, who the current PC leader, Progressive Conservative leader, Aaron O'Toole,

00:05:07.940 replaced. Maxime founded the PPC in 2018, citing disagreements with Scheer's leadership.

00:05:14.820 Mr. Bernier and I came into personal contact during the controversy surrounding Canada's

00:05:20.920 Bill C-16, which purported to protect the rights of trans individuals, but was regarded

00:05:26.220 by me and others as a threat to free speech. I invited Aaron O'Toole, the current PC leader,

00:05:34.240 to this podcast. He had other commitments and declined, and I invited Mr. Bernier, and he agreed

00:05:39.700 to talk, so we get to meet again. And so it's really good to see you, and thanks very much for

00:05:45.200 agreeing to talk. Thank you, Mr. Peterson, Jordan. I'm very pleased to be with you. And you're right

00:05:52.440 by saying that the first time we were in contact, it's when I called you in 2017, because now I know

00:06:00.340 that I did a mistake at that time. I voted for that deal since 16, and I didn't know a lot about

00:06:07.520 that. That was the party position of the Conservative Party of Canada at that time, and I voted in line

00:06:14.740 with the party line. But after that, some of my friends told me, Maxime, I believe that you did a

00:06:20.600 mistake. That deal, it's not only about gender self-identification, it's about free speech,

00:06:28.080 and you must have a discussion with Mr. Peterson. And we had a phone conversation at that time,

00:06:34.320 and you explained to me the impact of that deal, and I must admit that you were right,

00:06:40.660 and I was wrong at that time. But I was a little bit naive about all that transgender and cultural 1.00

00:06:50.740 Marxism and all that woke culture. Because, Jordan, when I decided to be in politics, as you just said

00:07:00.420 in my bio, I was more kind of an economist. I worked only three years as a lawyer in a big law firm in

00:07:07.980 Montreal. But after that, I worked in a financial institution. And I was working for the Montreal

00:07:15.960 Economic Institute. That's a think tank, a free market think tanks in Montreal. And I was VP over

00:07:22.880 there. So when I decided to be in politics, I decided to be in politics for a smaller government,

00:07:29.180 more freedom, less government intervention, and more free markets. You know, I was, that's why I

00:07:36.420 decided to go in politics. And all that cultural Marxism, and now that woke culture, I didn't know

00:07:44.100 anything about that. And what I liked when I was a minister, was to do a deregulation in the telecom

00:07:51.560 industry. And Professor Schultz at University McGill said that I was the best minister of industry

00:07:59.480 for the last 30 years because of that deregulation. So more competition prices went down for the telecom

00:08:07.800 and cell phone. But all that was not part also of my platform for the leadership of the Conservative

00:08:16.140 Party of Canada in 2017. My platform was very more a kind of a conservative, libertarian, less government,

00:08:24.860 believing in people, not in big fat government. And I had something about extreme multiculturalism at that

00:08:32.040 time, and also on immigration. But you I wasn't in contact with all that world culture and Bill C16

00:08:42.760 after a discussion that we had. And now, today, today, it's part of my campaign. It's part of the

00:08:50.440 of the People's Party of Canada. And I'm speaking about it every day, because it's a reality. It's a sad

00:08:59.160 reality of our country right now. Yeah, well, a lot of that sort of legislation is a wolf in sheep's

00:09:06.720 clothing, because it purports to be kind and compassionate, and to be solely for the benefit

00:09:12.860 of people who are oppressed in some unfair manner. But there are sharks and crocodiles lurking beneath

00:09:20.140 the surface. And it's it's not necessarily that easy to see them. And I think that's really been hard

00:09:27.360 on centre thinkers and people who are more on the right as well, because they get defeated often

00:09:34.640 before they even have a chance to speak because the woke crowd is extraordinarily good at setting the

00:09:40.160 stage for the political discussion. We saw a lot of that in the debate, for example, in the last leaders

00:09:44.640 debate. You're absolutely right on that. And that's why now we are the only national political party

00:09:53.920 that has a policy on gender identity. Can you believe that? For me, you know, back five years ago,

00:10:04.080 for me, that wasn't an issue. But now it's an issue. And we are speaking about that. When you have

00:10:10.880 legislation or here in Canada, when you have men that are saying that they're women with and going to

00:10:19.760 a prison for for for for women in the same prison, you have you have that in Canada. And when you have

00:10:28.960 men that are in a competition against women in sport, and that's supposed to be normal. So so that's why 0.99

00:10:36.960 we needed to have a policy on that in our platform. And that's a policy that is very popular because we

00:10:43.920 go back to the common sense. And I think there's a lack of common sense in our country right now.

00:10:50.720 The common sense is not that common these days. But I'm speaking about it openly. And more and more

00:10:58.800 people can understand that we want to live in a free society when you don't have any racial politics or

00:11:06.480 identity politics or gender issues like that. So you you founded the People's Party of Canada in 2018.

00:11:18.800 That's is that correct? And that was dissatisfaction in part with the leadership of Andrew Scheer and

00:11:23.760 with the Conservative platform in general. And so it's a radical move to start a new political party. And

00:11:30.000 of course, people have pointed out and I'm sure you were aware of this, regardless that one of the risks of

00:11:35.600 doing that is that you split the vote and that as a consequence, you move the probability of power

00:11:41.440 more into the hands of people whose policies you might not agree with. And so why do you why did you

00:11:46.480 think that it was worth? Why did you think it was necessary worth the risk and necessary? And do you feel

00:11:52.480 this is a few years later that that you were justified in that assumption? Yes, I believe that it was

00:12:00.320 the best political decision in my political career. I'm very pleased that we did it. But yes, at that

00:12:07.440 time, when I was a conservative, and that was just after the leadership contest in 2017, I didn't win with

00:12:15.440 49% of the vote. And I try and we we had a very popular platform, very popular conservatives, free market,

00:12:23.760 smarter government. And after a couple of months, I believe maybe 12 months, I was trying at that time to

00:12:34.880 have the leadership of the Conservative Party of Canada, to take some of our ideas that were very

00:12:41.840 popular with the membership of the Conservative Party of Canada. And Andrew Scheer said publicly

00:12:48.000 that, you know, I'm, when I'm speaking about policies, I'm speaking only for myself, I not engage

00:12:56.000 the party, and the platform for the next election, the 2019 after that, will be a platform very

00:13:03.280 different than the platform that I ran on for the, for the, for the leadership of the Conservative Party

00:13:09.920 of Canada. So I said, why staying with a political party, and running at the election of 2019,

00:13:15.680 with a party, when you don't believe in that platform. And for me, that party was not conservative,

00:13:21.360 centrist, and a little bit centered to the left. And I said, when I resigned, this party,

00:13:27.440 the Conservative Party of Canada is intellectually and morally corrupt. And that's why I created the

00:13:33.520 People's Party of Canada, based on four principles, individual freedom, personal responsibility,

00:13:40.480 respect and fairness. And, and all our policies are in line with these principles. And we don't do

00:13:47.840 politics by survey or polling, we believe that we have the right vision for this country. And we are

00:13:54.800 speaking about what we believe openly, with passion and conviction. And I believe that I will be able to

00:14:01.440 have more support. But in the election, like you just said, Jordan, the 2019 election, that was the

00:14:07.360 first election for the People's Party of Canada. And I didn't win my seat in vote, I was running as

00:14:14.080 the leader and a People's Party candidate, we had 1.6% of the vote, 300,000 people voted for us.

00:14:23.520 But for our first year, we did better than the Green Party of Canada, because it took the Green Party of

00:14:30.240 Canada 20, 20 elections, 20 years and six elections to have more than 1.6% of the vote. And we did that

00:14:40.240 in our first year. But the biggest argument coming from the Conservatives, again, against us, was the

00:14:47.680 fact that, oh, don't vote for Bernier, you'll divide the vote, you're going to split the vote. And, and I can

00:14:54.720 tell you that was very efficient. I saw people out west and all across the country, Maxime, we like

00:15:01.200 your ideas, we like your platform. But our most important goal is to get rid of Justin Trudeau.

00:15:09.040 We don't want to split the vote. So we won't support you. That argument was very efficient. But now we know

00:15:16.080 that, you know, they voted for some Conservatives voted for the Conservative Party and Andrew Scheer,

00:15:22.960 and they end up with Justin Trudeau. And now you have the same argument in 2021. But it is less

00:15:30.640 effective, because Erin O'Toole now is more leftist than Andrew Scheer. And the party, if you look at the 0.90

00:15:37.760 platform of the Liberal Party of Canada and the Conservatives, they are the same on imposing a

00:15:44.160 vaccine passport, woke culture, not balancing the budget, I can go on and go on. So people realize now,

00:15:52.320 a little bit more, then you know, if you vote for Bernier, it is not a vote for the Liberal,

00:15:58.480 it is a vote for yourself, for your values. And, and if Erin O'Toole is winning, he will be like Justin

00:16:05.840 Trudeau on the most important issues for the future of our country. So that argument is less effective.

00:16:12.640 And I believe that's why also, we are growing in the polls right now. As you know, the election will be

00:16:18.960 this Monday. And I'm speaking about our freedom as speaking about the fact that we have draconian

00:16:26.960 measures that are that these government, not only the federal one, but the provincial one,

00:16:32.960 provincial ones are imposing on us. And that freedom of speech, freedom of expression, freedom of choice,

00:16:39.600 is very important in this campaign. And we are able to grow our support. I don't know what will be

00:16:46.480 the result at the end of this campaign. But I can feel a kind of a momentum, and we'll see what will happen.

00:16:52.560 Where do you think you are in the polls right now? What do you think is a reliable figure?

00:16:57.760 Yeah, so we don't do any internal polling. We don't do that. We don't believe in that.

00:17:03.040 I'm looking at the public polls, and we are between 7% nationally to 11-12% nationally. In some provinces,

00:17:14.240 like in Ontario, we are around 8%. In Alberta, around 10%. So I believe that we can have maybe a strong

00:17:24.880 6% or 7% of the votes. And if we have that from 1.6% to 6% or 7%, that will be a big victory. If we have

00:17:34.160 that score, we will have more votes than the Green Party of Canada, because since the beginning of that

00:17:40.400 campaign, the Green Party is around 3% and 4%. And as we started that campaign at 1.6%, like now we are

00:17:48.240 around 6%, 7% and maybe 12%. So we'll be able to do better than the Green, and maybe do better than the 0.53

00:17:55.040 Bloc Québécois, that is a regional political party only in Quebec. They're at 6% in the polls. So we, the

00:18:03.920 mainstream media and the political elites, will have to speak about us and engage with us about our ideas. So that

00:18:11.920 will be the beginning for us of a new step, and another step for the growth of our party, because

00:18:21.280 this party is there for the long term, and we won't merge with any party. We will always fight for what

00:18:28.480 we believe and pushing our ideas. Because like I said, we are doing politics differently. And it's not a

00:18:35.600 slogan, it's a reality. Usually when you're a politician, you will speak about a subject when

00:18:42.400 maybe 30%, 35% of the population is on that side, because your goal is to have a majority. And you'll

00:18:50.240 start to speak about it and hope that you have 50% on one subject. For us, that's not important. We are

00:18:57.040 doing politics based on ideas, and we believe that we have the best ideas, like I said. I'll give you an

00:19:02.400 example, you know, speaking about ending the supply management system in Canada. That's a cartel for

00:19:12.800 poultry, dairy, and milk. These producers are fixing the price in Canada, cannot export, and that's why

00:19:20.640 Canadians are paying twice the price for milk, poultry, and eggs in our country. We want to abolish that,

00:19:26.560 and being sure that it would be a free market for these products.

00:19:31.600 But when I'm speaking about that, you know, the huge majority, 70% of the population agree with that

00:19:39.120 system. So what we need to do, we need to speak about it more often, and more people will be on our

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00:22:34.720 We don't...

00:22:35.600 Okay, so let me ask you, let me ask you about that. So well, okay, I want to summarize some of

00:22:40.320 the things you said, see if I've got this right. So your feeling is that, that

00:22:47.280 the conservatives in some sense, because they're doing politics by poll, are drifting into the center

00:22:54.160 and the center left. And you are providing an alternative set of ideas. And you think that the

00:23:00.400 provision of that set of ideas is important enough to Canadians, broadly speaking, that taking the risk

00:23:06.400 of dividing the vote is a good short and long-term measure. These ideas need to be brought into the

00:23:13.200 public forum. And it's, it's risky. There's great risk in not doing it. And, and you also think that

00:23:19.040 your party, and so then why, why is it as well that your party has decided that you're going to stick

00:23:25.600 to your, your philosophical platform, let's say, rather than being led by polls? And do you really

00:23:32.320 think you can avoid doing that in, in the long run?

00:23:35.920 Our goal is not to be in power. That's not the end goal. Yes, I hope everybody will be elected,

00:23:42.000 but our end goal is to speak about our ideas and when they will become popular. And we know that,

00:23:47.840 you know, an idea, an idea will become popular if you speak about it. So the more we speak about it,

00:23:54.960 the more support we'll have and the more candidates will be elected. So the conservative there, they are

00:24:00.880 only conservative in name right now. And what Erin O'Toole is doing by speaking like the leftist and, and, and, 1.00

00:24:09.680 and, and using that narrative is not helping the real conservative cause. And O'Toole is not

00:24:16.880 speaking about that because it is not popular today. We are in a socialist era in Canada and in other

00:24:23.520 countries. So if your main goal is to be in government, you, you will, you know, there's about 70,

00:24:30.000 60% of the populations in Canada that are leftist. So that's why the conservative is going to the left,

00:24:37.920 because the only goal is to be in government. Our goal is not to be in government. I hope a day I'll

00:24:43.120 be prime minister, but I'm realistic. Our goal is to have increased our percentage of the vote,

00:24:49.120 to have some candidates that will be elected this election and growing our support. And

00:24:54.240 the next election will be more powerful, will be more candidate. And that's why our electoral campaign

00:25:00.720 for this election, our electoral platform for this election is the same one than the last election in

00:25:06.880 2019. And it will be the same one in 2022 or at the next election, because, you know,

00:25:13.520 why do you, why do you think these ideas are so important that so, so Canadians are going to often

00:25:20.240 vote to throw someone out rather than to bring someone in, let's say, and maybe often that's how

00:25:25.120 democracies function. And it's hard to say whether that's a good thing or a bad thing.

00:25:28.320 Um, that, that isn't what you're doing precisely. You're trying to bring these ideas into a wider

00:25:34.400 public forum. Why do you think that's so important? And why do you think that you have the background

00:25:39.840 knowledge to make that decision? Like, because you formed a party, you're, you're, you're changing

00:25:44.480 the political landscape in Canada. You're taking a big personal risk as well. This isn't an easy thing

00:25:49.360 to do. So what is it that you're doing, that you're offering that's so vital and important that

00:25:54.880 all of that is worthwhile. And, and, and why should Canadians take that risk?

00:25:59.440 What happens if they, if you don't do this?

00:26:01.440 That will happen. We'll be in that leftist era for longer than we thought. You know,

00:26:08.160 we have more and more draconian measures right now. I'm speaking about COVID-19.

00:26:13.440 You know, in, in, in Alberta, they will have a vaccine passport in Quebec. We have a vaccine

00:26:20.640 passport. In Ontario, we have a vaccine passport. Don't get me wrong. I'm not again, that vaccine,

00:26:26.720 you know, everybody must be free to choose if they want the vaccine or not with the right information.

00:26:31.840 But right now we are imposing a vaccine passport. So we are dividing the society in society into two 0.99

00:26:39.200 groups, you know, the vaccinated people and the unvaccinated people, and some of them will have

00:26:45.360 more rights than others. That, that's not what we want in a free society. Everybody must be equal

00:26:51.600 before the law. And we know that everybody can spread the virus, the vaccinated people and the

00:26:57.520 unvaccinated people. We know that if you took the vaccine, you'll have mild symptoms. If you have

00:27:03.520 COVID-19 and your chances of, of spreading the virus is a little bit minimum, but everybody can

00:27:10.720 spread the virus. Look at what is happening right now in Israel. And there's a lot of people there 1.00

00:27:18.160 that took the vaccine and they can spread the virus. So why I won't be able to go to a restaurant

00:27:24.480 because I decided personally enough to take the vaccine. I'm 58 years old. And if I'm looking at the

00:27:30.320 data and the statistics coming from our country, from Statistic Canada, I have 0.5% chances of dying

00:27:38.000 if I have COVID. So my, my survival rate is 99.5%. So I decided not to take the vaccine, but my dad is 87

00:27:48.160 years old, diabetic, and I encourage him to take the vaccine and the two shots and he did it. So we just

00:27:55.360 want people to be free. And now I'm not able to go to a restaurant or to a baseball game because I

00:28:01.680 didn't take the vaccine and everybody can spread it. And I know that if I'm at a restaurant and the

00:28:07.920 table just near me, there's people who took the vaccine, they're protected. They're not more in

00:28:14.480 danger because I'm there. So we must be fair for everybody and stop that COVID hysteria. We need to

00:28:21.600 learn to live with that virus. It will be there. We cannot have zero COVID-19 in one country. It

00:28:28.560 won't happen. We need to learn to live with it. If not, we will live with more iniquity and injustice.

00:28:35.600 And I don't want that. So, so that's why, you know, I'm, let me play, let me play devil's advocate for

00:28:42.000 a minute. I'll take our prime minister stated a couple of weeks ago, I believe that pretty much

00:28:48.080 had no sympathy for anyone who is unvaccinated, who ended up in the hospital, for example. And

00:28:52.960 you might say, well, the vaccines are widely available and so, and people can get them

00:28:57.440 whenever they want. And so why in the world shouldn't they do it? The science supports

00:29:01.760 their utility. These aren't my claims, by the way, the science supports their utility. And if they're

00:29:07.360 too damn stupid to get the vaccine, then why, then they're limiting their own freedoms and everyone 1.00

00:29:12.560 else's security is paramount. Okay. So what's wrong with that argument in your view? 1.00

00:29:16.480 Well, it is wrong at that basis because first of all, yes, we are free to decide, but what that

00:29:25.120 argument, what that argument is saying is if you want to be free, you need to have the vaccine passport.

00:29:31.360 And that would create two kinds of citizens, like I said at the beginning, and that will create a show

00:29:36.800 me your paper society, that vaccinated people will have to show their papers to participate in the

00:29:42.640 society. And maybe unvaccinated people will have to show maybe a negative COVID test to participate

00:29:49.280 in the society. We don't want that because COVID is there. There's no difference between me

00:29:55.840 that I didn't take the vaccine and another person. If you decided to take the vaccine to protect yourself,

00:30:03.520 not the society. Now we have the immunity that is there out there. And yes, there are some variants,

00:30:11.120 but the most important is we, we must learn to live with that virus. We not must care

00:30:18.080 people. And now what Justin Trudeau is saying, if you work for the federal government and you don't

00:30:23.680 have your two shots, you don't have the vaccine, you don't have the vaccine passport. He said, you know,

00:30:29.360 there will be consequences that his words, there will be consequences. So he wants to punish people

00:30:36.960 that decided not to take the vaccine. You know, everybody that's unconstitutional, that's illegal.

00:30:43.600 You know, your personal health choice must be private. If your employer is asking you,

00:30:50.160 do you, did you take the vaccine or not? Canadians must not answer that question. It's your personal,

00:30:57.360 private health information. And you must have the discussion with your doctor. Now they, and you

00:31:03.440 know, all our personal information would be out there with that code QR that we have in Quebec and

00:31:10.000 vaccine passport. They're going to know your, your, your status, your, your, your age, what you're

00:31:17.040 doing, which institution you are going. It is a little bit like a social credit in China. Maybe I'm

00:31:24.720 exaggerated. Yes, but it's going to that direction. And I don't like that.

00:31:31.280 You know, I see in some countries, I think it's Australia where there's technology where now you

00:31:35.760 have to take a snapshot of yourself in a particular locale at a particular time, and that the phone

00:31:41.040 can tell the people, the authorities that you're reporting to, if you're actually there. And,

00:31:45.360 you know, for, for, for people who are concerned with governmental overreach,

00:31:49.840 the establishment of such technologies, regardless of the rationale poses a substantial existential

00:31:55.680 danger. That's, that's comparable in some sense to the health danger presented by the,

00:32:00.800 well, by the pandemic. And so that, that, that seems to be what you're suggesting, I would say.

00:32:06.720 And so, all right, so let's, let's talk about if, what do you think Canada should look like in three

00:32:12.480 months, then in relationship to COVID? So, so you envision a completely open country, fundamentally?

00:32:19.680 What is, what, what do you think we should do?

00:32:22.160 Well, I think we should do like in other countries or in other states that didn't

00:32:27.040 lockdowns their economy, lockdowns people and, and shut down their economy. I'm thinking about

00:32:33.200 Florida with Governor DeSantis, Texas, and other countries. What we did with COVID-19, just the fact

00:32:40.880 that the Trudeau government with the $354 billion that the Trudeau government spent because of COVID-19,

00:32:49.120 that was the biggest deficit in our history. And what he said, he said, you know,

00:32:54.480 he said to provinces, you can lock down your province. I will, I will finance your economic loss.

00:33:01.680 I will give grants and subsidies to businesses for them to stay close. And I will create a program

00:33:08.320 for Canadians. That was not the solution. Some medical expert and expert that signed the

00:33:14.640 Barrington Declaration in the US said that, you know, we must, we must, yes, lock down the most

00:33:21.920 vulnerable Canadians and that Canadians, older Canadians with comorbidities and open the economy. 0.52

00:33:29.040 That was a big mistake. And now, and now we are paying for that with our huge deficit. We are paying

00:33:36.000 for that because there's a lot of waiting lists for surgeries right now. And we, we, we locked down

00:33:42.960 the economy, suicide rates is going up, depression. That was not the solution. And I hope that right now,

00:33:51.840 or just after the election, all these lockdowns and mass mandate that are imposing on people

00:33:58.000 must end. And that's, that's an important fight for us, for the People's Party. And I believe that

00:34:03.840 this country must be more open, no more lockdowns, no more stay at home orders, no more curfew.

00:34:10.080 In Montreal, during that COVID, the, at the peak of the COVID-19 crisis, we had a curfew from eight

00:34:18.640 o'clock PM to five o'clock AM and you know, to fight a virus. That's the first time in the history

00:34:25.920 of the world that we do use lockdowns to fight a virus. That was an experiment, a failed experiment.

00:34:33.360 So my, my vision for this country, I hope will be open. I hope that fear won't be them,

00:34:39.920 won't be there anymore, that people understand that we can fight COVID-19 with the vaccine and

00:34:46.080 there's other medication. I'm not an expert, medical expert, but I know that there's other

00:34:51.200 medications. We must promote other medication naturally or pharmaceutical one. And, and we

00:34:57.680 must reopen the economy, no mass mandate, no lockdowns, no vaccine passport. And we must go back to our

00:35:04.320 life like it was before the, that COVID-19 started. Okay. So you're encouraging Canadians in some sense to

00:35:13.360 take the risk to vote for you and to vote for your new party, because you believe that that particular

00:35:18.240 side of the story, let's say seriously needs to be told and that it needs to be told over and over,

00:35:23.280 and it needs to be part of the national discussion in parliament and all of that. So Canadians who

00:35:27.680 agree with, with the propositions that you just set forward, if they vote for the PPC, then they can

00:35:34.000 be reasonably assured that their voice is at least going to be heard in the national debate. Otherwise,

00:35:38.720 as far as you're concerned, the conservatives are basically going to put together something

00:35:43.120 approximating a liberal platform and all of this argument, libertarian argument in some sense for

00:35:48.720 increased freedom and for return to essential normality and warning about government overreach.

00:35:54.720 That's not going to be part of the national conversation at all.

00:35:57.040 Absolutely. You're absolutely right about that. And I tried to, I tried for that conversation to be

00:36:05.440 part of this election, but you know, the mainstream media is canceling us. And just recently, because

00:36:14.160 we are growing in the pool that they are speaking about us, but that growth was ordinary Canadians,

00:36:20.560 using their social media, speaking to their families, their friends about the PPC,

00:36:25.760 because our biggest challenge right now is still a lot of people don't know that we exist,

00:36:30.960 don't know that there's another option. And we didn't have that conversation during that

00:36:35.120 electoral campaign. All the other political parties agree with vaccine passports and lockdowns, 0.95

00:36:41.360 and we are the only one, but we were not part of that national debate in the mainstream media.

00:36:47.840 And yes, you're right. After this election, we'll have a couple of candidates that will be elected.

00:36:52.960 And I, I believe that I'll be able to be reelected in my writing in both,

00:36:57.280 and we'll have that conversation. And the mainstream media won't be able to ignore us anymore.

00:37:03.040 Well, you know, one of the things that we can talk about, too, is just exactly what we're doing

00:37:06.960 right now, is that increasingly, as far as I can tell, and I believe this is going to be the wave of

00:37:12.000 the future. And maybe this will transform politics in a relatively radical ways. You can do what we're

00:37:18.160 doing right now and just talk directly to people. You can circumvent the media, and that's going to

00:37:22.800 be more and more the case. And so I'm hoping that that will help us, well, that'll produce a,

00:37:27.760 in some sense, a new breed of politician who speaks directly to people and isn't trying to

00:37:32.960 craft their image so they look good when presented in, you know, in the sound bites that are characteristic of

00:37:38.960 the legacy media. There's just no reason for that anymore. And so, hopefully, we'll see people

00:37:46.320 present ideas that live or die on the strength of the idea. That would be really nice. So...

00:37:52.560 Yeah, that would be something. And that's why we are using social media a lot. And I believe

00:37:58.640 the fact that we are very active on social media, and I want to thank you also for giving me this

00:38:03.600 opportunity to speak to your viewers. The fact that we are more active on social media, it is helping

00:38:09.120 us. And yes, there's a lack of leadership in Canadian politics. Politicians are following the polls,

00:38:15.760 and they try to tell you what you want to hear. And you know, like in that political campaign,

00:38:21.680 we have a huge deficit, and they want to spend more and more money.

00:38:25.040 Yeah, okay. So let's talk about that. So I'm going to play devil's advocate again. It's like,

00:38:29.840 well, I've thought about this. And I can understand the dangers of both the debt and the deficit. But

00:38:35.600 but the fact that these debts are being racked up, and the deficits as well seems to be characteristic

00:38:42.960 of Western democracies in general, everyone seems to be doing it. And so it isn't obvious that people

00:38:49.120 will flee our currency because we're in a relatively weak economic position because of that, because

00:38:53.680 everyone's doing it. And so why can't we just get away with this? Why aren't we rich enough just to

00:39:00.240 get away with it? What what do you think the danger is? And why do you think that your analysis of that

00:39:05.280 danger is credible? Yeah, because, you know, that deficit and more and we'll have more deficit because

00:39:12.960 every traditional establishment parties, a party are promoting more deficit, more spending,

00:39:19.120 with money that we don't have, but with borrowed money, and that will that will increase our deficit

00:39:25.120 and our debt. So why it's so important to balance the budget? Because it's not our children and

00:39:30.880 grandchildren that will pay for these deficits. It is us right now. It is us right now. And we are paying

00:39:38.880 with the inflation tax. Inflation is a hidden tax. Instead of the government taking your own money in your

00:39:46.320 own pockets and forcing you to give that to the government, the government is telling you keep

00:39:51.360 your money in your pockets, but you won't be able to buy the same amount. Okay, so let's let's walk

00:39:57.280 through that. So I first of all, I think it might be useful just to distinguish for everyone the

00:40:01.360 difference between the deficit and the debt. Yeah, just so everyone knows that the terminology and

00:40:06.080 then I would like you to walk through why you think increased government spending at the deficit and debt

00:40:12.080 level increases inflation and where that's showing up in Canadians lives. Okay, first, the deficit is

00:40:21.120 the deficit of last year. The deficit was $344 billion. And every day, the government is spending more

00:40:31.200 money that is collecting. So every day that you will add that deficit is going to the debt. And every day,

00:40:37.600 we are adding to the debt. So when I'm speaking about balancing the budget, we are not speaking

00:40:42.960 about paying the debt. No, we are just speaking at no more deficit, we don't want to increase the debt

00:40:48.720 anymore. So that's that that's very important. But the other political parties are ready to have more

00:40:54.800 deficit, and that will put that will increase our debt. So right now, like I said, we are paying because

00:41:02.400 the inflation in Canada, it's 4.4.1%. That's the official and inflation in Canada right now. But

00:41:11.840 if you do your grocery, you know that the inflation, the real inflation is bigger, bigger than that

00:41:17.680 five 6% inflation. So that's why I said inflation is a hidden tax. Because with the same money that you

00:41:23.920 have in your pocket, you cannot buy the same amount of goods and services with that money, your purchasing

00:41:29.440 power is going down, your standard of living is going down, all prices are going up, and everybody

00:41:36.480 is poor. So inflation is a hidden tax, and we are paying right now. Why don't you trust the official

00:41:42.800 inflation rate figures? Why do you think it's higher than they state? And where do you think that's

00:41:48.080 primarily showing up? Because the way that they calculate the inflation, since state Canada and the

00:41:53.680 Bank of Canada, it's a basket of goods and services. And in that basket, they don't put everything. So

00:41:59.760 yes, we have a four or 5% inflation in our grocery. But globally, since state Canada is telling us that

00:42:06.400 it's 4.1%. But 4.1%, it is huge. The Bank of Canada, the Bank of Canada has an inflation target of 2%. Now,

00:42:19.120 it's more than 2%. It's 4.1%. But 20% inflation is no good. 10% inflation is not good. 2% is not good.

00:42:27.840 We must have an inflation target of 0%. And if we have that, the Bank of Canada won't be able to print

00:42:34.720 money out of thin air and creating inflation, because the inflation is created by the Bank of Canada.

00:42:41.440 And so our goal as a political party, we are the only political party that is speaking about monetary

00:42:48.160 policy, that is important for the well-being of Canadians. We want to have, for the Bank of Canada,

00:42:56.000 a zero inflation target. We want people to be able to keep their purchasing power. So that's important.

00:43:02.240 So we could talk about this in more straightforward terms, too. So let's say there is a four,

00:43:07.920 four to 5% inflation rate for the next five to 10 years. And what that means is that the average

00:43:14.640 Canadian savings are going to be cut in terms of their purchasing power by something exceeding 50%.

00:43:21.280 That would be over a five to 10 year period. So it doesn't sound like a lot for four to 5%, but it

00:43:28.000 compounds across time and it can add up to something substantial and no time flat. Hey,

00:43:32.080 so I got a question that's a little, pushing the envelope a little bit. The cryptocurrency types,

00:43:39.600 you know, the people who are pushing Bitcoin, Bitcoin in particular, make the extraordinarily

00:43:45.360 radical claim that it would be better for everyone if the entire business of money was taken out of the

00:43:51.200 hands of government permanently. And that's essentially what Bitcoin allows, at least at the present time.

00:43:56.880 And so that means that central bankers and politicians would, in principle, assuming this

00:44:01.920 is actually a possibility, would never be able to print money and they would never be able to inflate

00:44:06.400 currency. And what do you think about those sorts of cryptocurrency claims? And are you, well,

00:44:12.800 I'd like to know what you think about that in general.

00:44:14.640 I agree with that. I think they're right. We have a fiat currency right now. And, you know,

00:44:21.520 that's why this inflation and we are losing our possession power. Yes, I believe that we must have

00:44:27.840 more competition and the cryptocurrencies and the Bitcoin can be an alternative. But personally,

00:44:34.800 I prefer a gold standard like we had in the 19th century here in Canada, because when you have a gold

00:44:41.920 standard, the central bank won't be able to print money out of thin air. It's another way to control

00:44:48.080 the central bank. And we had that before in the past, in the 19th century. And that was a very

00:44:58.560 prosperous time, prosperous century. But I'm not against the cryptocurrency. I think we must have

00:45:04.080 more competition. You answer the right on that. So the Austrian economists, the Hayek types,

00:45:09.920 and they believe that the boom and bust business cycle is actually produced by the attempts by

00:45:18.320 government to overspend in the face of so-called crises. And that produces inflation and a variety

00:45:24.800 of other factors that then produce the business cycle in turn, this sequence of essential busts and

00:45:31.600 booms. And so does that seem like a reasonable proposition to you? Or do you look at it differently than

00:45:35.920 that? No, no. I think you're absolutely right, Jordan. You know, Hayek, Mises, Rothbard,

00:45:43.360 that they're real economists. And they know that. And they're the only one that wrote about that and

00:45:49.040 studied that. And I believe, yes, the circle that we have, the up and downs in the economy,

00:45:55.680 it's because of the central bank. You know, money is everywhere. And if you create too much money out of

00:46:01.680 tin air, you'll have inflation and distortion in the economy and boom and boost that we have.

00:46:08.560 So I 100% agree with Mises, Rothbard, Hayek, and these economists.

00:46:15.280 So, you know, I think these are ideas. Just we'll move a bit sideways here again. I think a lot of what

00:46:22.480 political leaders could do if they had the intellectual capacity would be to use forums like

00:46:29.120 YouTube to actually educate the public. And I don't mean I'm shaking my finger at you because

00:46:35.360 you need to be educated. I mean to walk people through the logic and to explain why these propositions

00:46:41.360 are reasonable and to treat the public as if they're capable of engaging in actual intellectual

00:46:46.160 exercise. Because my experience on YouTube has been that they are to a massively surprising degree.

00:46:53.440 Because I conduct these discussions with people I really admire. And sometimes those people are

00:46:59.200 really, really smart. And so the discussions go fast and deep. And there's no evidence at all that

00:47:06.160 people aren't following along. And there's plenty of evidence that they really appreciate it.

00:47:10.160 And so let's do this for a second. So I would like you to contrast your preparation to be a leader

00:47:17.040 of a political party and a figure of authority who dares to discuss such economic issues, let's say,

00:47:23.280 with that of Trudeau and perhaps of O'Toole. Like, why are you the guy and not Trudeau and not O'Toole?

00:47:30.000 Assuming, well, so let's go there.

00:47:32.160 Yeah, I'm doing just what you said. You know, I'm using social media, YouTube. I have a YouTube

00:47:39.760 channel, People's Party of Canada. And, you know, everything that I'm telling you right now,

00:47:44.800 I said that in speeches 10 years ago, on videos 10 years ago. So that's what I believe. I'm in

00:47:51.680 politics because I believe in these ideas and I want them to be successful. So yes, I believe that

00:47:58.960 Canadians are intelligent. And I'm saying always, you know, I don't try to appeal to you as a Canadian

00:48:05.680 voter to your emotion. I try to appeal to your intelligence. You know, like that discussion that

00:48:13.120 we have, you know, it's very difficult to have the discussion in social media and all the debates that

00:48:21.280 they had in Canada. And I was not part of that. But maybe I'm very happy that I was not there because

00:48:27.680 that was not a debate. That was some bite for the media without any real discussion like we have

00:48:33.920 right now. So yes, I'm doing politics differently. And yes, I believe that people are intelligent.

00:48:39.440 And I don't want to, I don't see people like children that we must give them more security

00:48:46.160 and more regulations and a bigger government that will control them. 0.77

00:48:50.400 Yeah. Well, I also think it's, it's stunningly, it's stunningly cynical on the part of political

00:48:56.480 leaders to manage their, their message, you know, because it means that there's no real faith in

00:49:03.440 just direct discussion and maybe, and maybe no capacity for that discussion to begin with. I mean,

00:49:08.080 our prime minister has stated publicly that he's really not interested in monetary policy. And

00:49:12.480 what I read that, I mean, I read that two ways is one, well, three ways. One, how could you possibly

00:49:18.480 say that and not notice what you just said? And second, well, perhaps that's because you actually

00:49:25.040 don't understand it. And third, it's because not only do you not understand it, but you don't know

00:49:29.920 how terrible it is that you don't understand it. Absolutely, absolutely. And they don't want to have

00:49:37.360 these kinds of debates about real issues. And that's why our platform of the last election is the same

00:49:44.000 one, we won't change the issues because they're popular or not. And there's a lack of leadership

00:49:49.600 with politicians right now, because they all, they all do politics by polling and survey. And I

00:49:56.640 remember, I have an example in Canada, Brian Maroney, maybe Brian Maroney was not so good,

00:50:02.640 but the election of 1988, the election on the free trade agreement with the US, when Brian

00:50:08.640 Renaud, they decided to have that as a principal team of his campaign. He said it's important to

00:50:14.400 have that freedom agreement for the prosperity of our country. When he started that campaign,

00:50:19.600 in the polls, the majority, 66% of the population were against a free trade, free trade, sorry,

00:50:28.080 with the US. So the liberals, the liberals and all the other party was, were on the side of the

00:50:33.920 majority of the population. They didn't want to educate the population. But Brian Maroney said,

00:50:39.920 it's important for the future, I'll campaign on it. And my, and my goal is, I will be able to

00:50:47.120 convince Canadians on that. And he was able to do that. At the end of the campaign, he had the biggest

00:50:53.360 majority in Canadian history. And that was a referendum on the free trade agreement with the US.

00:51:01.360 That's only an example with Brian Maroney about that. I'm not telling you that he was the better,

00:51:06.400 the greatest prime minister that we had, but that's an example, sorry, example of doing politics

00:51:14.240 based on principle and leadership. But we don't have that right now in Canada.

00:51:18.400 A question I discussed with Rex Murphy. I talked to Rex earlier this week and posted

00:51:23.760 his analysis of the, of the debate. So let's start. A couple of things came out of that,

00:51:28.160 that I thought were real, real interesting. The first is, uh,

00:51:31.360 the debate itself featured five main topics. And hypothetically, those are the most important

00:51:37.360 issues facing Canadians. So that was, uh, uh, let me see if I've got this right. Well,

00:51:42.000 there was leadership and accountability. There was climate change, there's reconciliation,

00:51:45.360 there was affordability, uh, into which everything to do with the economy was lumped. And then the last

00:51:51.040 one I believe was COVID policy. And when I looked at that, I thought, well, the choice of the topics is

00:51:56.560 actually the debate. And so what, one of the things I really wanted to ask you is, okay,

00:52:02.560 you're assessing something extraordinary and complex, which is the state of the country. It's

00:52:06.880 like, okay, what, what are the most important issues facing Canadians, as far as you're concerned?

00:52:11.200 What do you think we should be, what do you think we should be concentrating on?

00:52:14.560 I think we, uh, we must have a discussion about, yes, COVID-19 and the impact of COVID-19 and all these,

00:52:22.080 uh, uh, measures that these governments are imposing to us. That must be very important.

00:52:28.400 Second, we must have a discussion in Canada about our immigration policy.

00:52:32.880 They are afraid to speak about that. You know, that's important. When you believe in mass immigration,

00:52:38.160 400,000 people a year that will come to our country after two years, it is the population of

00:52:45.200 Nova Scotia, a new Nova Scotia every two years. But the worst of that is the big majority of them 0.93

00:52:52.080 are refugees or people coming on the reunification of family. So I want to have a discussion on

00:52:57.920 immigration because I love my country. I want my country to be like that in 25 years. I don't want 1.00

00:53:03.600 my country to be like in France when there's no goes on over there. People must come to our country 0.99

00:53:09.440 and share our values and they must know that men and women are equal before the law. We must have a

00:53:15.200 discussion about them and we must welcome them. But instead of having the majority of our immigrants, 1.00

00:53:22.080 uh, refugees and re-education of family, we, our immigration policy must be in line with our

00:53:27.680 economic needs. And it is not the case actually right now. So that's why we want fewer immigrants. 1.00

00:53:33.440 And more, more skilled immigrants, economic immigrants that will come here. They will have

00:53:38.160 a job. They will be able to integrate our society, uh, easily. And so we don't have that discussion.

00:53:44.800 It's always more and more. And if you have that discussion, people will look at you. Oh,

00:53:49.600 you're xenophobe. You may be racist. No, uh, actually we had that discussion in Quebec, 0.99

00:53:55.920 as you know, I'm coming from Quebec, that discussion about immigration, because for Quebec,

00:54:01.680 their Francophone entity is very important. And at the last election, Legault that was elected and

00:54:07.920 is the premier of Quebec now said during the election, he won 20% fewer immigrants. Nobody

00:54:14.240 said that he was a racist. And he said, these people must come here and it would be better if

00:54:19.600 they can speak French. If not, we must be able to give them a French lesson. And so we had a discussion

00:54:26.320 at the provincial level in Quebec, but in Canada, for the first time at the last campaign, we started

00:54:32.400 that discussion. So I think it's important for the future of this country to have that discussion.

00:54:37.280 It's important to have, for the future of this country to have the discussion on balancing

00:54:41.120 the budget. Like I said, we don't have this discussion and it's sad.

00:54:45.120 Okay. So you identified COVID immigration budget. I mean, the climate change issue,

00:54:51.440 the tremendous amount of time was spent on that. And, and that, that drags up the 30 issue,

00:54:56.560 let's say of Alberta and, uh, and, uh, well, in Canada's Canada's what the, the largest that,

00:55:03.040 that we've been shown by divine providence, so to speak, to give us these immense oil reserves. And

00:55:08.560 so we have this industry and, and that's under assault in some sense, as a consequence of concern

00:55:14.880 about climate change. And so Albertans are feeling the pressure of that sort of discussion. So what,

00:55:20.240 what do you think about, what do you think about all that? What's the way forward there?

00:55:25.520 Well, we must have, you're absolutely right, Jordan. We must have a discussion also on, on,

00:55:32.320 the Paris accord and climate change. We have that discussion right now, but it's only on one side.

00:55:38.560 And we are the only political party that did say no to the Paris accord. Uh, we believe that there's

00:55:44.160 no climate emergency. Yes. The climate is changing and it will always change. Uh, and, uh, we, we,

00:55:52.000 we believe that we can do better thing, better actions for the environment. Uh, and I said, you know,

00:55:57.920 we won't impose a carbon tax. We won't sign the Paris accord. What we will do, we will be,

00:56:03.280 we will do concrete actions for the environment. Like, uh, you know, we still have lakes,

00:56:08.400 lakes in our country that are not clear. And I'll, I'll let the climate change, uh, battle

00:56:13.920 at the provincial level, because the beauty of that is the environment is a shared jurisdiction

00:56:19.920 in Canada with the federal and the provincial government. So let provincial government deal

00:56:25.040 with it. And us at the federal level will have other policies, but the one that we don't discuss

00:56:30.800 also is our equalization formula. And I think, and I believe it is important for the prosperity

00:56:38.080 of our country, but also for the unity of our country. When you have Jordan, about 30% of the 0.97

00:56:44.240 population in Alberta that want to separate, because we believe that the equalization formula,

00:56:50.880 that is a formula that is redistributing wealth in this country from rich provinces to poor provinces,

00:56:57.920 they think that it's unfair. And I believe that they have a right to say that.

00:57:02.320 Well, I think they think it's particularly unfair when the equalization payments are the way they are,

00:57:06.880 and the province is simultaneously demonized for the very economic, uh, engine that allows those

00:57:12.480 equalization payments to be a reality. That's a bit much right to, to have to pay and then to be criticized

00:57:18.560 for how you raise the money. So. Yes, yes. And that's another point. That's why they're not

00:57:27.120 happy with that. But, uh, the traditional politicians, the other political parties don't want to speak

00:57:33.040 about that because they need to have a solution and the solution. And you don't want to speak about

00:57:37.840 the solution because you have to educate the population. The solution is what? To be less generous.

00:57:43.440 We need to do redistribution. It is in the constitution. We need to have a formula. 0.87

00:57:47.920 But the federal government is in charge of that formula and the federal government can decide

00:57:52.720 how much money it will give to other provinces, to have not provinces. And we can be less generous

00:57:58.880 because now there's no incentive for Quebec or New Brunswick to develop their own natural resources.

00:58:05.280 There's a lot of shale gas in Quebec and New Brunswick. If they do that, they would be more prosperous

00:58:10.800 and they receive fewer money from the equalization formula. I was in New Brunswick and I'll give you an

00:58:16.880 anecdote at the last campaign and I did a rally over there and I spoke about the equalization formula.

00:58:23.760 I said, we must cut it. We must, it must be less generous to give the right incentive to your

00:58:28.880 province to be, uh, to exploit, exploit their own natural resources. And that formula is unfair.

00:58:35.600 And a journalist from CBC was there at that, uh, at that rally. And they, they asked me after that,

00:58:43.280 Mr. Bernie, I want you with me live tomorrow morning at seven o'clock. I said, I'll be there. And when I was

00:58:51.520 there, the discussion, she said, would be only on the equalization formula and you have three minutes.

00:58:56.640 I said, okay. She started, you, you want to cut the equalization formula? I said, not cutting all the

00:59:02.400 formula, but I want to be less generous. Do you know, Mr. Bernie, that here in New Brunswick, half

00:59:07.360 of our budget is coming from the equalization formula? I said, yes, I know that half of the

00:59:13.280 provincial budget. I know that. So Mr. Bernie, I don't understand you. You want to have support here in

00:59:20.000 New Brunswick. You want people to vote for you and you are telling them that you will cut half of their

00:59:25.280 provincial budget. I said, yes, I said, yes, I will do that. But on a transition period,

00:59:31.040 because I believe in your people, you're not a poor province here. You're a rich province.

00:59:36.240 You have bad economic policy at the financial level, and we need to give the right incentive

00:59:41.200 to your province to have more free markets, develop, develop more your, your natural resources

00:59:46.960 that you have, but we'll do that on a transition period. And that would be fair for everybody and

00:59:52.720 every province. So you need to have the courage of your conviction and having discussion like that.

00:59:58.320 But the other political parties don't want to speak about that because they will have to speak

01:00:02.720 like that in New Brunswick and in Quebec, and they are pandering to these provinces for votes.

01:00:08.240 So, and it's important for me because in Atlantic Canada and in Western Canada,

01:00:13.360 they know that that formula is not fair. And I'm seeing the same thing in French in Quebec

01:00:17.920 and in Atlantic Canada and all across the country. And that's why I believe we have a lot of support

01:00:23.360 in Western Canada, because they know that we have the solution. They're not happy

01:00:28.000 with Ottawa right now, and they have great reason for not being happy.

01:00:32.400 So you talked about small government, you talked about balancing the budget.

01:00:36.480 And so let's talk about concrete issues there. So where is the government federally being

01:00:43.600 particularly profligate? And what would you do? Or what do you think should be done? How do you

01:00:48.000 analyze the problem? And what do you think would go a long ways to solving it?

01:00:53.120 Yeah. So, so what I think, I believe that we must respect the constitution. It's all about our

01:00:58.400 constitution. We have a good constitution, a great constitution. The problem is politicians

01:01:03.600 don't respect our constitution. If you do that, you will have a radical decentralization in Canada.

01:01:09.760 You will give more autonomy to Alberta and every provinces. And, you know, if in Alberta they want

01:01:16.800 to have their police force, like in Quebec, they will be able to have that. If in Alberta they want

01:01:21.920 to have more private delivery for health care services, they will be able to have that. If they want

01:01:29.920 to have their own pension plan, they will be able to have that. So let's have a radical decentralization.

01:01:36.720 And like that, you won't have any constitutional crisis and you'll have more prosperity. So that's our

01:01:42.480 vision of our country. That is based on the vision that the father of our constitution had in 1867.

01:01:52.480 Okay. So, so you see decentralization as a way of promoting economic experimentation,

01:01:58.800 at least in part, but you also think that it would take some of the pressure off

01:02:01.840 regional concerns. And what about federal spending per se? I mean, what is it that the government's

01:02:09.840 spending poorly? Where is government spending being conducted particularly poorly? And what do you

01:02:16.400 think should be done about that? And what kind of numbers are we looking at?

01:02:20.800 Yeah, absolutely. So you're right about giving more autonomy to provinces and I want them to be able to

01:02:27.760 raise their money for their own responsibility. So, but the federal government has a role and the role

01:02:33.760 of the federal government is to be sure that, you know, we'll be able to invest in our Canadian forces.

01:02:40.720 We are in charge of the monetary policy. We need to have a real economic union in this country that we

01:02:46.880 don't have. And, and to be able to do all that, we need to cut spending. You know, I believe that we

01:02:54.000 must not give subsidies to businesses. We must have a policy that would be fair. Every business must have

01:03:00.480 a flat tax of 10%. So I don't believe it's fair to tax a small business in Toronto and forcing

01:03:08.160 these entrepreneurs to pay taxes. And after that, we are giving that to GM or Bombardier. Let's have,

01:03:14.960 let's abolish that. We can save about eight to $10 billion. So we want to have a smaller government

01:03:21.040 that will spend in their jurisdiction and, and let provinces deal with their own responsibility.

01:03:28.800 You know, we are transferring in Canada $41 billion to provinces for health care. I don't want to do

01:03:35.920 that. Health care is the 100% provincial jurisdiction. We must be sure that Ontario and every province

01:03:44.240 will be able to raise money for their own responsibility. And we know that the best government

01:03:50.080 is the government that is near the people. So to do that, instead of the federal government taxing

01:03:55.600 people, and after that, giving that to provinces and sometime with conditions, we must abolish that and

01:04:01.840 we must give them the GST. Actually, we are raising in Canada $41 billion with the GST.

01:04:08.960 We must do a tax point transfer. The GST will be managed by provinces and they will be able to raise

01:04:16.080 money for their health care and they will be independent. They won't be able to come to Ottawa

01:04:21.120 for asking for more money all the time. So they will be in a position for health care, for example,

01:04:28.640 to find the best system for their citizens. Is it more money in a socialist system or maybe more competition?

01:04:35.280 And Canadians will know who to blame for a lack of services in health care and for waiting lists.

01:04:44.160 Now they don't know who to blame. Is it the federal government because the federal government is not

01:04:48.160 giving enough money to provinces? Or is it the province because they're not able to manage efficiently

01:04:54.240 their health care system? So the pressure will be on the provinces and they will have all the tools

01:05:01.040 and the responsibility to deal with it. And maybe we'll have competition. Maybe in Quebec,

01:05:06.160 you'll have more private delivery. Maybe in Ontario, you'll have less and the best system will

01:05:11.920 the best system will come. And like in other countries, when you have a universal coverage,

01:05:17.840 but people can choose to go to a private delivery, a private clinic or a public hospital. We don't have

01:05:25.040 the best system for that, but it's under the provincial jurisdiction. I cannot change the system,

01:05:30.960 but I can give the incentive for them to change it by giving them the GST. They will raise that tax

01:05:39.280 and they will keep that tax and all the incomes coming from the GST and they will be responsible.

01:05:44.640 So let's turn to just briefly, if you don't mind, we'll turn to another topic of the debate. So

01:05:51.840 fifth of the debate was about reconciliation and Canada's flags have been

01:05:56.080 flying at half mast for six months or something like that. And

01:06:01.680 my sense of that part of the debate was that none of the real issues were ever discussed. And

01:06:08.160 so this is, I think of reserves in some sense, the Canadian reserves are the vast majority of them as

01:06:15.520 akin to the small towns in Canada that have been absolutely devastated over the last 40 years.

01:06:21.600 They're without economic viability. You see them drying up all over Saskatchewan and Alberta at these

01:06:26.400 and out in Atlantic Canada as well, because these little outposts just can't survive. They don't

01:06:31.680 have the economy for it anymore. And I, so, and I didn't see anybody talk about that particular

01:06:37.440 problem, which seems to be the big one. So I think that these attempts at reconciliation are

01:06:42.880 going to be lumped in with the big lies in no time flat because we're not addressing the real issues.

01:06:48.000 Maybe I'm wrong. Am I wrong? What do you think about that issue? And, and

01:06:54.880 is it something that the PPC is concentrating on? Is it something that's, that's, that's of the nature of

01:07:00.640 a crisis? What should be done? Yeah. You're not wrong. You're not wrong, Jordan.

01:07:07.840 The solution is there. The solution is there. And we have, we have a policy, a platform for the First 0.82

01:07:14.080 Nation. And I was in Edmonton and unveiled that platform with some of our candidates that one of

01:07:21.440 them is an atheist and others are a First Nation. And they agree with our platform. What we need to do,

01:07:28.720 we need to turn the page and build a new relationship with the First Nation based on property rights on 0.98

01:07:35.120 reserve. There is not on a top down approach that what is, that is what is happening right now. You

01:07:41.440 know, we don't have clean water on reserve and Ottawa cannot solve that. They must be able to solve.

01:07:49.040 Okay. So why, why, why specify property rights? What do you see that be? What, why is that the issue?

01:07:54.160 Because, you know, you cannot, if you're on reserve, you cannot, you can have a house, but you can have,

01:08:03.280 you cannot have a mortgage. You don't have any property. It's a kind of a communist system on

01:08:08.560 reserve. There's no property right there. There are some reserve in BC that develop a kind of a

01:08:14.400 property right. When you don't have any property rights on reserve, people living on reserve,

01:08:20.240 they are dependent. They cannot build wealth. They cannot have a house. They cannot have a mortgage.

01:08:25.680 Okay. So Canadians don't, Canadians don't understand this. I don't understand this. So what's the

01:08:29.600 typical economic arrangement? So I'm a, I'm a First Nations person. I'm living on a reservation.

01:08:34.880 I have a house, but I don't have a house. According to you, I don't have property rights. Who owns the land?

01:08:39.840 Who has the rights to it? How does that work exactly? And why is it a problem?

01:08:45.600 Yeah, that, that, that's the reserve. You have a house. Yes. But you cannot do what you want in

01:08:52.400 that house because that's, that's under the, the authority of the, of the reserve. And that's why,

01:09:00.640 you know, you don't have people and you have the Indian Act also that is managing everything. And the

01:09:07.120 Indian Act, it's a racist act. It is based on race. So we need to abolish that. But the problem is,

01:09:14.240 if you want to abolish it, the other question is, you will replace that by what? And we don't have

01:09:19.920 the solution. But when I'm saying that to people, to, to First Nation, they agree that we must abolish

01:09:26.320 the Indian Act, but they want to be part of the solution. What I'm telling them, yes, we want you to be

01:09:32.800 fully participate in our society, being part of the solution. Let's abolish that. And after that,

01:09:38.720 I think a discussion for a better future on reserve, a kind of a property rights on reserve.

01:09:44.480 Well, it must be very, it must be very hard for people to be incentivized to improve their property,

01:09:50.400 to invest in their property, etc. If they have no stake in the future of that property,

01:09:55.520 if that's distributed entirely in ways that are beyond their personal control.

01:10:00.000 Yeah, but I don't, I want people to understand that they have a house, they can do what they want

01:10:06.480 in their house, but they cannot mortgage the house. So they can, they can improve it. And that's why,

01:10:13.440 but that's the discussion that we must have with them. But we don't have that discussion. We don't want

01:10:18.720 to have that discussion, because the solution is complicated. And oh, and we prefer to give money

01:10:24.720 to them billions of dollars. But that they don't want them, they want more autonomy, they want to be

01:10:30.320 able, you know, to have maybe the same responsibility, like like a municipality. So let's have the discussion.

01:10:38.160 We need to respect treaties. Yes, we can do that. But we need to open that. And but the mainstream

01:10:44.960 political parties are not ready for that, because they don't have the solution.

01:10:50.960 Why did the Métis people who are running for your party agree with that? What do they see that's

01:10:56.640 valuable for them? Because they see that we are able to speak about that. They know that we don't

01:11:03.280 have all the solution. But they know that the principle where we want base our relationship,

01:11:08.640 nation to nation, respecting everybody, turning the page about the past, not Ottawa will be there

01:11:14.720 and telling you what to do every time. So abolishing the Indian Act. They like all that. But they want 1.00

01:11:20.240 to participate with us to find the solution. And they want to have that discussion. That's why they

01:11:25.920 agree with our position. So I would like you to tell me your opinion about what's happened in Canada

01:11:34.720 at the federal level under Trudeau. So what's your story of Trudeau's government? How should we

01:11:39.920 conceptualize it? And and what do you think about it? And why?

01:11:45.520 Well, I believe it's a failure. First of all, Trudeau said in the beginning of his mandate,

01:11:52.560 the first one that Canada is the first post post national nation country with no car identity. And

01:12:01.440 and I think that that was his goal. And now with the racial politics that we have in this country,

01:12:07.200 and Trudeau was successful to put us in a little box, you know, you are black, we have a policy for 0.98

01:12:13.760 you. Like he did, you know, a new program for black entrepreneurs, only for black entrepreneurs. 0.98

01:12:21.120 That's racial politics. That's Trudeau. For me is the most divisive prime minister in our history.

01:12:28.160 We need to abolish programs like that. We need if you want to have a program for entrepreneurs,

01:12:33.200 we need to have a program for all entrepreneurs, and not only for black entrepreneurs. So and that's

01:12:40.080 why we that I believe that's why people are our people are ready to have the discussion. And more

01:12:47.280 and more people the world culture put that, you know, when Trudeau said, there's no recession anymore,

01:12:54.080 or a secession. And you know, what's that? Oh, because he believed that a recession

01:13:00.320 would be harder on women. So it's all that political correctness at the extreme. And I said

01:13:07.040 no to political correctness long time ago, there's no taboo subject for us. And Trudeau, you know,

01:13:13.760 all that world culture, and you know that better than me, Jordan, it was all in the university,

01:13:19.040 universities couple of years ago, and now it's it's in the civil society with and that that's the

01:13:26.400 Trudeau heritage, and also the big deficit and and the inflation. And so what do you what do you

01:13:35.280 think of Trudeau personally? How do you assess him, his character and his fitness for leadership? And

01:13:41.680 and maybe you could also say the same about O'Toole and would you rather see O'Toole or Trudeau as prime

01:13:47.280 minister? Well, you know, we will have O'Toole or Trudeau in a couple of days. But both of them,

01:13:56.160 both of them I don't like because I don't like them because they don't have any character. They're

01:14:02.160 following the polls. And you know, some some day they're saying something, the other day they're

01:14:07.040 saying the opposite. But Trudeau, I can tell you that he's a good communicator. You know, he's able to

01:14:13.760 have one line and with the mainstream media, everything, you know, he was a teacher, teacher.

01:14:22.240 So I understand that he's very good. But there's there's nothing is for me is a puppet. And he will

01:14:32.000 say what a puppet of what do you think? A puppet of the establishment of the Liberal Party of Canada

01:14:43.520 and the establishment. They want they want to stay in power and they will do everything to stay in

01:14:48.560 power. They will be to those said a couple of months ago that imposing a vaccine passport will

01:14:54.720 be too divisive. That's why I won't do that. And now he's seeing the opposite. Why? Because you look at

01:15:01.600 the polls and he knows that more people are ready for that. So there's no leadership that is,

01:15:10.960 is listening his advisor, and he will say everything to be elected. And O'Toole is the same. So

01:15:19.280 I don't have any. I don't know Trudeau personally. I don't know O'Toole personally. I know them like

01:15:26.960 every Canadian and I'm judging them by their policies as political leaders. And for me,

01:15:33.760 the policies that they promote is not the right policies for our country and for the future of

01:15:39.440 our country.

01:15:40.000 Another question. When you think about Canada the way it is now, like Murphy told me, for example,

01:15:49.520 that he conceptualizes Canada. He says, well, we're a regional country. There's the Atlantic

01:15:55.680 provinces. There's Ontario. There's Quebec. There's the western provinces. BC is its own place. There's the

01:16:00.880 north. So when you envision Canada,

01:16:03.360 Canada, where do you see its regional divisions? And what does the PPC have to offer,

01:16:10.160 let's say, each of those particular regions?

01:16:14.560 First, I agree with that. We have different regions in this country. But the most important

01:16:21.200 for me, we have different culture. The culture of Quebec is different from the culture of Alberta.

01:16:28.080 But that's our country. And we cannot change that. But we are united. We are united because we share the

01:16:35.600 same values. And if we want to have a constitutional peace in our country, we need to have more

01:16:41.600 decentralization. Every province must be able to do what they want to do. If something is very important

01:16:49.760 in Alberta, and they want to have, I don't know, their own case to depot, their own pension plan,

01:16:56.800 they must be able to have that. So that's why I, you know, what we are doing, it's not,

01:17:02.320 we don't try to reopen our constitution or to rewrite our constitution. We just want the federal

01:17:08.320 government to respect the constitution. And by doing that, that will give more autonomy to provinces,

01:17:13.680 and you will have a constitutional peace in this country. And yes, it's beautiful that we have

01:17:18.720 different culture in this country. And we are unique in the world with that. So we are Canadian,

01:17:24.560 and that's part of our identity as Canadian. So what do you think it is that unites us across

01:17:29.360 those regions, as far as you're concerned? What is it this? So Trudeau said, well, we're the first

01:17:34.000 post-nation nation, in some sense, we don't have a central culture. You don't agree with that,

01:17:40.000 obviously. What do you think it is that unites us across those fairly pervasive regional differences?

01:17:46.240 It's our history, our culture that is different in different regions. It is our charter of rights,

01:17:57.040 our freedom, the fact that we want every Canadian to be equal before the law, our Western civilization

01:18:07.120 values. And the fact that yes, you know, in Quebec, you can speak French over there, and we don't impose

01:18:14.960 that to anybody. And in Alberta, you know, that's an Anglophone province and outside, but people

01:18:21.520 appreciate that. And yet, but they don't want anything being imposed by the federal government.

01:18:26.560 So let provinces do what they want to do. But our country is not the country that Justin Trudeau

01:18:34.240 wants to build a country more divisive. And you know, for him, you are not Canadian. If you are,

01:18:41.440 if you are a Canadian from, from China, he will, he will, and O'Toole will do the same thing. He will call

01:18:50.960 you a Chinese Canadian or a Pakistanis Canadian. No, people came here to celebrate our freedoms. And

01:18:59.280 everybody for me is a Canadian. I don't call, you know, if I'm speaking with a person,

01:19:05.920 the different ethnicity, that you are a Chinese Canadian. No, you are a Canadian. And these people

01:19:11.600 came in here to celebrate and to become Canadians. So that divisive politics, that identity politics

01:19:18.880 is killing, killing our country. And we want to stop that. And, and, and having policies that will look

01:19:27.600 at everybody as a Canadian and not try to, to do that, pandering to, to a region or pandering to an

01:19:35.440 ethnicity, like the traditional politicians are doing right now.

01:19:39.200 So if Canadians vote for you on Monday, elections on Monday, um, what's their reward for doing that?

01:19:48.480 We can return to that to some degree.

01:19:50.240 Yeah. Like, like, like I said, I want them not to vote against something. I want them to vote for

01:19:59.360 something, for their values, for what they believe. And look, if you like our platform, I hope you support

01:20:04.960 us. What would be after the election? I can tell you that I won't be the leader of the opposition.

01:20:10.160 I won't be prime minister, but you will have a freedom voice in Ottawa. You will have a common

01:20:15.920 sense voice in Ottawa. You will have a voice that is ready to do these important debates for the

01:20:21.520 future of our country. That's what I can tell you. And we will start that common sense revolution

01:20:27.120 together. That's only the beginning of a, uh, uh, another step for the People's Party of Canada

01:20:33.920 and the beginning of that common sense revolution in this country.

01:20:37.120 Well, we've gone 90 minutes. That is a nice closing statement. I guess I'm wondering if there's

01:20:43.840 anything else you'd like to discuss or add. And apart from that, then I think that that's a nice

01:20:49.920 wrap. No, I appreciate that. Yeah. I appreciate that. And Mr. Peterson, Jordan, I'm very pleased

01:20:55.520 that you gave me that opportunity to, to be out there and to reach more people. That's the most

01:21:00.320 important for us. That's our biggest challenge. So yes, we can end there. And it'll be interesting to

01:21:06.800 see how people respond to this because, well, because I'm hoping that this kind of discussion can become

01:21:12.800 a model for a different kind of political dialogue in the future. And one that's not mediated so much

01:21:17.760 by media handlers and appearance and all of that, but that's predicated on straight, blunt,

01:21:24.400 somewhat complicated talk. And, and, and I guess we'll see how that works. We'll launch this as soon

01:21:29.680 as we possibly can.

The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast - September 17, 2021

192. Individuality, Autonomy, and the PPC ｜ Maxime Bernier

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