The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast

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00:00:52.000 Hello, and welcome to Season 4, Episode 49 of the Jordan Peterson Podcast.

00:00:59.000 In today's episode, Dad spoke with Mohamedou Ould-Slahi, a Mauritanian who was held by the U.S. for 14 years without charge or trial at Guantanamo Bay.

00:01:10.000 If you've heard of the Mauritanian movie, then this episode will give you an exclusive insight into the torture sessions he endured, the depression he went through, and how he journaled up until the moment he was released, and that was part of what got him out of Guantanamo Bay.

00:01:25.000 I had Mohamedou on my podcast and had to get him on Dad's. This is a story everyone should hear. This is one of the most positive people out there.

00:01:33.000 If you're feeling sorry for yourself about something and you want a reminder of why that's not helpful, give this guy a listen.

00:01:39.000 I hope you guys have a good week and enjoy the episode. If you do enjoy it, please remember to hit subscribe.

00:01:45.000 This episode is brought to you by Helix. If you want to start your day on a good note, then you definitely should be getting a good night's sleep.

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00:03:45.000 I'm speaking today with Muhammad Uld Salahi, born December 21st, 1970, who spent 14 years in Guantanamo Bay without being charged, arriving August 4th, 2002.

00:04:14.000 Released October 17th, 2016.

00:04:18.000 He wrote a memoir in 2015 while still imprisoned.

00:04:21.000 The U.S. government declassified it in 2012 with numerous redactions.

00:04:26.000 It was the first work by a still-imprisoned Guantanamo detainee.

00:04:31.000 Published in 2015, it became an international bestseller.

00:04:36.000 It details Salahi's experience of being force-fed seawater, sexually molested, subjected to a mock execution, repeatedly beaten, kicked and smashed across the face, and all spiced with threats that his mother would be brought to Guantanamo and gang raped.

00:04:54.000 Prison officials prevented Salahi from receiving a copy of his published book.

00:04:59.000 The Mauritanian, a film adaptation of the memoir, was released on February 12th this year, directed by Kevin MacDonald and starring Jodie Foster, Tahar Rahim, Benedict Cumberbatch, and Shailene Woodley.

00:05:11.000 He's been living in Mauritania since his release.

00:05:14.000 He reattained his passport last year and has been attempting to gain permission to travel, not least to Germany, to see his son.

00:05:21.000 Thank you so much for inviting me today in your program.

00:05:26.000 And I feel truly honored to talk to you and to your audience.

00:05:33.000 My name is Mohamed Bursulahi.

00:05:36.000 I come from Mauritania.

00:05:38.000 I was born in the South.

00:05:41.000 My father was a camel herder.

00:05:44.000 I don't know any father of mine who wasn't a camel herder of sort.

00:05:50.000 And my dream was to grow, to be a camel herder, just like my father.

00:05:59.000 But this dream was cut short because of the successive drought that hit the country in the 70s and the 80s.

00:06:11.000 So all our camels died out.

00:06:16.000 So died, I mean, and we had only very few that couldn't sustain the life of a big family.

00:06:23.000 So we are 12 siblings from the same father and the same mother.

00:06:30.000 So my mother decided single handedly to move the family against the will of my father near the city for the children to find jobs and just to make livelihood.

00:06:45.000 Because my father was hanging on a dream that would never materialize.

00:06:50.000 So he was living in this fantasy that he could recuperate.

00:06:57.000 How many camels did your father have?

00:06:59.000 And you were living in a rural area at that point, obviously.

00:07:03.000 Yes.

00:07:04.000 So I heard, so when I, the thing I remember, it's like a dozen, a little bit over a dozen.

00:07:13.000 And then they became fewer and fewer.

00:07:16.000 So when my father died, when I was 11, we had only like several, maybe three, four.

00:07:25.000 And how did you survive?

00:07:27.000 I mean, how is it possible for a family of that size to survive with that limited supply of livestock?

00:07:35.000 What else was the family doing in order to keep everything together?

00:07:41.000 So my father, my mother decided that the kids need to abandon this lifestyle and find jobs in the cities.

00:07:50.000 So my oldest brother went to Senegal across the border.

00:07:54.000 We were just at the border, southern border to Senegal.

00:07:58.000 And I was seven at the time.

00:08:03.000 This was 78.

00:08:05.000 And then the other kids found a job at bakeries and just to make ends meet.

00:08:11.000 So we have the same plate.

00:08:13.000 So we all contribute.

00:08:14.000 They couldn't find a job for me because I was very weak and very small.

00:08:18.000 And then the second best thing, they sent me to school.

00:08:22.000 And it was by accident and I didn't have a birth certificate.

00:08:27.000 So we went to the school.

00:08:30.000 The principal said he doesn't have birth certificate, but I accept him.

00:08:34.000 And I want you to give me birth certificate.

00:08:36.000 That's why you see my birth certificate has different like birth dates.

00:08:42.000 Sometimes no birth date.

00:08:44.000 Sometimes 31st, sometimes 21st, sometimes 11.

00:08:48.000 So anyway, and then I fell in love with school because I just loved it.

00:08:55.000 And I remember this very hot day.

00:09:00.000 Very hot.

00:09:01.000 When we say hot in Mauritania, it's really hot.

00:09:04.000 And the school was, I just went the other day and I measured the distance.

00:09:09.000 It was about two kilometers.

00:09:11.000 That is over one mile.

00:09:14.000 And I used to walk this distance back and forth twice a day because we have the morning class from 8 to 12.

00:09:29.000 And the afternoon class from 3 to 5.

00:09:35.000 So meaning I walk every day at least eight kilometers, about six miles every day.

00:09:42.000 And I didn't have shoes.

00:09:46.000 And I remember running and then my feet burn like beyond the description.

00:09:54.000 Then I would go to structures and the few trees to cool them down.

00:10:01.000 And then on my way, this, our neighbor, which was like doing well, she stopped me and start scolding me, telling me, why didn't you wear your shoes?

00:10:14.000 And then she started telling me this is really bad and you should always wear your shoes.

00:10:21.000 And I was burning.

00:10:22.000 She was talking to me and I was burning.

00:10:24.000 And I was too ashamed, Jordan, to tell her that I didn't have money to buy shoes.

00:10:30.000 My family was so poor.

00:10:32.000 We just came from the countryside and she just kept scolding me.

00:10:39.000 So I agreed to go back to my home and then pretend that I wear shoes.

00:10:47.000 But instead, I took another route where I avoided this woman.

00:10:53.000 That's how we did.

00:10:55.000 It's like I rarely ate meat because I didn't have money.

00:11:00.000 But I did well in school, even though like my family never asked me how I did.

00:11:08.000 They didn't even understand the concept of passing from one class to the next.

00:11:13.000 Were you the only sibling who went to school?

00:11:17.000 Yes, me and the older one.

00:11:22.000 And what kind of education did your parents have?

00:11:28.000 Aside from Bedouin education, none.

00:11:32.000 So Bedouin education where you learn how to read, to write, or like homeschooling, which is automatic.

00:11:40.000 When I went to school, I knew how to read and write because that's because we were like a book tribe.

00:11:48.000 You know, a tribe that, you know, because you have in Mauritania like the tribes that carry weapons and the tribe that carry the books.

00:11:58.000 So we carry the books.

00:12:00.000 And what's the distinction between those two?

00:12:03.000 What's the distinction between those tribes?

00:12:05.000 Obviously books and weapons, but I've never heard that distinction drawn before.

00:12:09.000 So what does that mean exactly?

00:12:11.000 So it means it's like kind of a caste systems that disappeared, but I saw it in my lifetime.

00:12:20.000 So some tribes carry weapons and like build this emirate, like they collect taxes and they provide security and they like protect the borders.

00:12:38.000 And some tribes, they don't carry weapons, they just carry the books.

00:12:42.000 And then they take this religious leadership where they like organize religious ceremony, like marriage, like divorce, like jurisprudence, like kind of an unofficial judiciary.

00:13:00.000 I see. And so there's no separation between those functions in some sense and having the books and what books, what are the characteristic books?

00:13:10.000 Yes. So what we learn is mostly like the grammar, Arabic grammar and the Greek philosophy and religion, Koran and the tradition, what we call Hadith.

00:13:27.000 And that's it. That's the extent of it. No languages, et cetera, et cetera.

00:13:32.000 And what's the Greek philosophy? And you said that was taught at home.

00:13:36.000 Yes. All of it.

00:13:38.000 And so what did you learn about Greek philosophy? It seems like a rather strange intermingling.

00:13:43.000 So how does that come about the mixture of Greek philosophy and education, according to the Koran, let's say?

00:13:49.000 Well, Jordan, so I didn't I didn't advance in this homeschooling to get to Greek philosophy because you have to be old enough.

00:14:00.000 So the Islamic jurisprudence is based on what they call usool and usool is derived from from Greek philosophy.

00:14:13.000 So the whole jurisprudence is derived from the logic of the Greeks.

00:14:17.000 And we have always this discussion that in order to modernize our jurisprudence, Islamic jurisprudence, we have to learn Leibniz and we have to learn about Einstein.

00:14:29.000 We have to learn Descartes because the Greek philosophy on which this whole Islamic jurisprudence is built is outdated, obviously.

00:14:38.000 And so. So, OK, so back to your schooling.

00:14:43.000 So you came into the city, you couldn't find a job specifically, so you were sent off to school.

00:14:48.000 What and what kind of school was that? What did you learn there?

00:14:51.000 And was it like a standard classroom that the sort of I mean, a standard Western classroom?

00:14:56.000 How was it organized and what did you learn?

00:14:59.000 So it was a French school system that we the government inherited from the French colonial time.

00:15:10.000 And.

00:15:12.000 And it was just different than the school system I'm used to at home, because at home I can learn at my own pace.

00:15:21.000 And there are no tests, you know, you just learn what you want.

00:15:26.000 And then for as long as you want, which was much more advanced and much more better for me.

00:15:34.000 But the school system, it was so much the French school system, so much pressure.

00:15:39.000 So I had like very strict curriculum and I have to go with it, even though if it's like quicker, I have to keep pace.

00:15:51.000 And if it's like too slow, I have to wait so I cannot like learn with my own pace.

00:16:00.000 And so and I did well, actually, so I was always number one until I graduated.

00:16:08.000 Never was I number two.

00:16:10.000 And I use like what I learn at home, you know, and it was a big advantage for me.

00:16:19.000 And so as soon as I finished high school, I received a scholarship from Germany.

00:16:29.000 You know, this is like wild.

00:16:31.000 I'm a Bedouin.

00:16:32.000 Right.

00:16:33.000 Right.

00:16:34.000 Yeah, I'm a Bedouin.

00:16:35.000 Did you even know what it meant at that point to receive a scholarship from Germany?

00:16:38.000 No, it was all by accident, pure accident, because I really wanted to go to France,

00:16:46.000 because I love like France because there is so much advertisement.

00:16:52.000 And I watch like French TV.

00:16:56.000 I like French music.

00:17:01.000 Like, what's her name?

00:17:09.000 What's her name again?

00:17:10.000 Yeah, I forgot her name, you know.

00:17:14.000 Mon ami La Rose.

00:17:17.000 It's very known.

00:17:18.000 Edith Piaf.

00:17:19.000 Yes.

00:17:20.000 Yes.

00:17:21.000 Edith Piaf.

00:17:22.000 Yeah.

00:17:23.000 I love it.

00:17:24.000 It's a great movie made of Edith Piaf's life.

00:17:26.000 It's a brilliant movie.

00:17:27.000 Yes.

00:17:28.000 Yeah.

00:17:29.000 So I want France.

00:17:30.000 This is all advertisement, you know, and the magazines.

00:17:33.000 So I want to go to France, but I did.

00:17:36.000 Did you enjoy the French school?

00:17:38.000 Did you enjoy the French school system or was it was it hard on you?

00:17:41.000 You did well.

00:17:42.000 So what was it like as an experience?

00:17:44.000 I enjoyed it a lot.

00:17:46.000 But, you know, I enjoyed.

00:17:48.000 I went to two schools at the same time.

00:17:51.000 So I went to the traditional Koran school and the French school.

00:17:56.000 I went to the Koran school because I loved the friendship in the mosque, you know, like what you would call in Canada, Sunday school.

00:18:05.000 I don't know whether you have it, but Americans always talk about.

00:18:08.000 So I love this Sunday school because I have so much freedom, so I can do whatever I want.

00:18:15.000 And there is no pressure whatsoever.

00:18:17.000 And ironically, the thing I learned in the Sunday school, I mean, in the mosque, I retain them to this day because I chose to learn them.

00:18:31.000 You know, and in the French school, yes, there was like some kind of pressure, especially during the test.

00:18:40.000 I don't like tests.

00:18:41.000 I think tests are the worst thing that the Western civilization has come up with.

00:18:47.000 I don't think tests are horrible.

00:18:49.000 Why should I test anyone?

00:18:50.000 If you don't want to learn something, just don't learn it, you know.

00:18:54.000 And if I was responsible for the system in my country, I would do away my first day with tests.

00:19:03.000 No tests.

00:19:04.000 You just learn as you want.

00:19:06.000 And if you are a doctor, you just go to the hospital and work in the hospital.

00:19:11.000 Your senior doctors would know whether you are qualified or not.

00:19:16.000 If you are a computer engineer, you just go find someone to show them what you learn.

00:19:23.000 And then they will give you a job and they will see whether you can do the job or not.

00:19:28.000 Because test is not indicative of anything.

00:19:31.000 Well, you had intrinsic motivation, obviously, and you love to learn.

00:19:35.000 So it was probably superfluous for you to have the pressure added.

00:19:39.000 So you got a scholarship to Germany.

00:19:41.000 What happened as a consequence?

00:19:43.000 So it was 1988.

00:19:47.000 I was only 17.

00:19:49.000 And it was the first time any member of my family ever traveled abroad.

00:19:58.000 Aside from Senegal.

00:19:59.000 Senegal is just very close.

00:20:02.000 It was the first time any member of my family ever boarded a plane.

00:20:09.000 Hmm.

00:20:10.000 It was, you know, it was amazing.

00:20:12.000 And I remember when the plane took off.

00:20:17.000 I was frantically reading Quran because I memorized the Quran to this day.

00:20:22.000 I know every single page.

00:20:24.000 And this student who already went to France said, are you scared?

00:20:30.000 I didn't know my answer, what was my answer, but actually I was scared.

00:20:36.000 But I'm sure I told him I wasn't scared.

00:20:39.000 Well, it's not surprising.

00:20:40.000 I mean, first of all, you were on a plane for the first time and you're not familiar with them.

00:20:43.000 And then you're going to a completely foreign country and no one in your family has ever done that.

00:20:48.000 And tell me about the tribe.

00:20:49.000 You said you were from, again, from the tribe that was focused on books.

00:20:53.000 What's the tribal organization?

00:20:55.000 It's beyond the family, obviously.

00:20:57.000 What does it look like?

00:21:00.000 So a tribe is kind of a small country.

00:21:08.000 Like the tribe, a tribe is a family name.

00:21:13.000 So you have your tribe, that's your family.

00:21:17.000 So if you are sick, they will provide you.

00:21:20.000 If you get in trouble with another tribe, they will go to the tribe and they will make peace.

00:21:28.000 If there is money that needs to pay, they would pay the money.

00:21:34.000 Let's say if you kill someone, you know, by mistake.

00:21:38.000 So your tribe will pay for the other family who lost that person, you know, as like a kind of insurance.

00:21:48.000 And I always say in Mauritania, we should adopt this tribal system, but the country should be one single tribe, just like in Canada.

00:21:59.000 Canada is a big tribe because the Canadian state is the one that provides you with health insurance.

00:22:07.000 They have set up insurance, damage insurance to pay.

00:22:15.000 And if you kill someone by mistake, your insurance pays, i.e. your tribe.

00:22:21.000 And I think that's the best way I could describe what a tribe.

00:22:26.000 I think it's...

00:22:30.000 How many people would compose the tribe that you belong to?

00:22:34.000 How large was it about?

00:22:37.000 I really...

00:22:38.000 I don't have any scientific number, but I would say when I was growing up, I would like randomly say 100,000.

00:22:49.000 And how many tribes are there in Mauritania? Do you know?

00:22:52.000 A lot, a lot of tribes in all shape and form.

00:22:57.000 Not only the warrior tribe, you have the warrior tribe, you have the book tribe, i.e. Zawaya, and you have the almost serving tribes, like the tribe who provide services, like artists.

00:23:15.000 This is like almost an independent tribe.

00:23:19.000 And all they do is just like entertainment.

00:23:22.000 And you have, unfortunately, I have to admit, we had slaves.

00:23:27.000 They just like serve, you know, you own them and they serve you.

00:23:31.000 In, I think, 81, this was abolished, you know, but we need to face up to this horrific past.

00:23:39.000 And just...

00:23:41.000 Well, we all have a lot of horrific past to face up to.

00:23:45.000 Yes.

00:23:46.000 So...

00:23:47.000 Unfortunately.

00:23:48.000 Yes, unfortunately.

00:23:49.000 Well, hopefully we can do better.

00:23:51.000 That's the plan, right?

00:23:52.000 So...

00:23:53.000 All right.

00:23:54.000 So you got on the plane and you read the Quran on the plane and you made it to Germany.

00:23:58.000 You must have...

00:23:59.000 It's no wonder you were afraid.

00:24:00.000 I mean, what did you think was waiting for you there?

00:24:02.000 So I had no clue.

00:24:05.000 You know, I like surprises because when I...

00:24:08.000 I was sitting like with one of the people in the studio and then someone asked me, so

00:24:14.000 what are you going to talk to Jordan about?

00:24:17.000 I said, I have no clue.

00:24:21.000 And then he said, and I said, I don't care, whatever.

00:24:26.000 And I like surprises and I'm very curious, you know, just like you.

00:24:33.000 And...

00:24:34.000 And so we arrived in Paris because I had to change the...

00:24:39.000 There was no direct flight to Frankfurt.

00:24:41.000 So I changed the...

00:24:43.000 The first thing I saw in Paris, and I'm ashamed to say this, everything was clean.

00:24:51.000 Hmm.

00:24:52.000 And everybody was wearing very tight clothes and everything was in place.

00:24:59.000 And the women were wearing very nice clothes.

00:25:02.000 Everything was...

00:25:03.000 And of course, that was the impression.

00:25:06.000 Later on, I...

00:25:09.000 I...

00:25:10.000 I noticed that the clothes are really not very comfortable, you know, for some reason.

00:25:15.000 Because the booboo and the African loose clothes were worn for a reason.

00:25:22.000 And so I took my plane.

00:25:25.000 I had...

00:25:26.000 I had...

00:25:28.000 I had...

00:25:30.000 80...

00:25:32.000 I had in my pocket about $12, $12 or $13.

00:25:38.000 That the money that my family gave to me.

00:25:41.000 Mm-hmm.

00:25:42.000 As a pocket money.

00:25:43.000 12 or $13.

00:25:45.000 And...

00:25:46.000 18...

00:25:48.000 Franks.

00:25:49.000 80 francs.

00:25:51.000 And...

00:25:54.000 So I took my plane and we arrived like 11 p.m. at...

00:25:59.000 In Frankfurt.

00:26:00.000 I did not speak English.

00:26:03.000 I did not speak German.

00:26:05.000 So...

00:26:06.000 I came there.

00:26:08.000 And then they stamped my passport.

00:26:11.000 And then for some reason, with just everything, they showed me the hotel where I spent the night.

00:26:19.000 And then it was Sheraton.

00:26:22.000 For the first time, Jordan, I sat in a room alone.

00:26:27.000 And that was very scary.

00:26:30.000 Because my family was big.

00:26:32.000 My family was very loud.

00:26:34.000 And every time, at every moment, someone is watching you.

00:26:38.000 Right.

00:26:39.000 So you were alone for the first time in a foreign country where you didn't speak the language.

00:26:43.000 Yes.

00:26:44.000 And alone physically.

00:26:45.000 With no one.

00:26:46.000 Mm-hmm.

00:26:47.000 Yes.

00:26:48.000 Right.

00:26:49.000 Right.

00:26:50.000 I understand.

00:26:51.000 And that was very scary to me.

00:26:52.000 And...

00:26:53.000 Because...

00:26:54.000 I...

00:26:55.000 In a very weird way, my privacy was defined by the people around me because they were my cocoon.

00:27:01.000 You know, because I trust them.

00:27:03.000 I'm not afraid of them.

00:27:05.000 I could do everything in front of them.

00:27:08.000 But now I'm alone.

00:27:10.000 It was like the people I'm used to were filled with ghosts.

00:27:15.000 But I'm afraid of ghosts.

00:27:18.000 And then I took a shower and I did like just everyone.

00:27:22.000 I love the towels.

00:27:24.000 I love the small, teeny tiny soup.

00:27:27.000 I stole...

00:27:28.000 I stole everything.

00:27:29.000 I put it in my bag.

00:27:31.000 That was my first theft.

00:27:34.000 And...

00:27:35.000 So...

00:27:36.000 I...

00:27:37.000 I fell asleep watching German TV.

00:27:40.000 I didn't understand anything.

00:27:41.000 And then a friend of mine who came with me, whose family is a little bit richer, and they

00:27:49.000 used to go to Paris, not him.

00:27:51.000 He came knocked at my door and said, Mohamed, do you know?

00:27:54.000 We can eat for free.

00:27:56.000 This is a hotel.

00:27:57.000 I said, really?

00:27:58.000 I said, yes.

00:27:59.000 He took me to the elevator.

00:28:03.000 Last night, I took elevator, but I was so tired.

00:28:06.000 I didn't pay attention to this, like, miracle.

00:28:10.000 You know, something that small room that you get into, and then...

00:28:16.000 And then it stops.

00:28:17.000 It's very disorientating because I didn't know how many stairs I made up and down.

00:28:24.000 And then I went to this buffet, very huge, with a lot of people.

00:28:31.000 White people, European people, by and large.

00:28:36.000 And I'm a small Bedouin.

00:28:39.000 And then there was everything.

00:28:41.000 Eggs, all types of bread, marmalade, all kinds of teas.

00:28:48.000 But this was the proverbial German, Dikwal der Wahl, the torture of too many choices.

00:29:00.000 I only used to, in Mauritania, tea and bread.

00:29:05.000 And when we were, like, doing really good, they give me butter in my bread and marmalade,

00:29:12.000 really good stuff.

00:29:13.000 So this all was new.

00:29:15.000 And I was telling myself, I need to eat something because I would look foolish,

00:29:20.000 and I would look strange if I don't eat something.

00:29:22.000 Then I chose eggs because I know how to eat eggs.

00:29:26.000 Or at least I thought.

00:29:28.000 And then I sat there.

00:29:31.000 I felt like everything, everyone was looking at me.

00:29:34.000 Everyone put everything down, and I was the scene.

00:29:39.000 And then I broke the eggs.

00:29:42.000 It was not cooked very well.

00:29:44.000 And I hate half-cooked eggs.

00:29:46.000 And we say in Mauritania, we say in Mauritania, I found myself with thorny twigs between my legs.

00:29:58.000 So I couldn't move forward, and neither could I move backward.

00:30:04.000 And so I thought, I need to get out of this place.

00:30:11.000 And then I hid the egg somewhere, and I drink the tea.

00:30:17.000 It was horrible.

00:30:18.000 It was Lipton.

00:30:19.000 I hate Lipton, you know.

00:30:21.000 I love my tea being very well cooked and very well brewed.

00:30:26.000 You know, because this is tasteless to me.

00:30:29.000 Like, you know, a bag, you put it in hot water.

00:30:32.000 There is no taste to it.

00:30:35.000 So all bad food, you got half-cooked eggs and bad tea.

00:30:40.000 Yes.

00:30:41.000 Talking about bad luck.

00:30:43.000 And then we took the plane to the city of Zarebrücken at the border of Senegal, very close to Strasbourg.

00:30:56.000 And so we took a small plane.

00:30:59.000 And because the small plane was really very wobbly, I thought, God wants to punish me.

00:31:06.000 Now this plane is going to crash because I stole the soap from the hotel.

00:31:11.000 And then I was really, so I was like praying frantically.

00:31:15.000 And I promised myself, I took it upon myself never to steal anything anymore.

00:31:20.000 You know, if I survived this very bumpy ride.

00:31:25.000 And we arrived at Zarebrücken.

00:31:27.000 I started the language.

00:31:29.000 I studied.

00:31:30.000 And I graduated in telecommunication microelectronics a few years later.

00:31:36.000 If you've been listening to my dad's podcasts, you know that I've been taking Elysium Health's NAD supplement called Basis.

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00:36:14.000 And that's how many years, how many years did you study there?

00:36:21.000 I stayed in Germany 12 years.

00:36:24.000 I studied and I worked, so.

00:36:27.000 And you picked up German and English there or just German when you were there?

00:36:32.000 Just German.

00:36:33.000 I picked English mostly in prison.

00:36:36.000 So, okay, what happened in Germany?

00:36:42.000 What happened in Germany?

00:36:43.000 You studied, you got your degree.

00:36:45.000 Was it a technical?

00:36:47.000 What educational institute was it that you attended?

00:36:51.000 So, I attended, I will say the name, it's very long, very boring, Gerhard Mercator University of Duisburg.

00:37:02.000 Now it's called University of Duisburg Essen.

00:37:06.000 And I studied microelectronics telecommunication.

00:37:11.000 That is a very fancy way to say that you can program and you can like set up computer networks.

00:37:18.000 And how did you choose that?

00:37:23.000 How did you choose your course of study?

00:37:25.000 Peer pressure.

00:37:26.000 Peer pressure.

00:37:27.000 I wanted to be a pilot.

00:37:30.000 And, but I had problems during my first year.

00:37:35.000 And my friends told me that this is useless because in Mauritania back then we had a fleet of two airplanes.

00:37:43.000 In whole Mauritania, two airplanes.

00:37:45.000 And this is only like rich kids.

00:37:49.000 They could go and make this pilot license.

00:37:52.000 And I wouldn't have a job.

00:37:55.000 They said the future is like microelectronics and so.

00:37:59.000 And I just wanted to study that because my friends told me that.

00:38:04.000 And how did you make friends there?

00:38:06.000 And how long did it take you?

00:38:07.000 And what was your family?

00:38:08.000 How are you communicating with your family?

00:38:10.000 Yeah, we didn't have WhatsApp.

00:38:13.000 I can't tell you that much.

00:38:15.000 And like we only had this phone, but we didn't have a phone at home.

00:38:21.000 So I had to call my brother at work and tell him that I'm doing well.

00:38:26.000 And then he relayed the message to the family because we didn't have a phone at home.

00:38:32.000 That was in the early nineties.

00:38:35.000 And were you lonesome?

00:38:36.000 Were you excited?

00:38:37.000 Like how was your life when you got to Germany?

00:38:40.000 You know, I was, you know, most of the time I was very depressed because of the cold.

00:38:50.000 Because of the cold?

00:38:55.000 Because of the cold, you know, and, you know, I went through a lot of depression because of, you know, my, you know, Germany is a lot of very, they have very, very distinct look to them.

00:39:19.000 And I looked different.

00:39:20.000 And that did not help me a lot.

00:39:24.000 German people are very nice people.

00:39:26.000 But whenever I went to places and so, especially when I travel back and forth, they always put me on special screening.

00:39:34.000 And I hated myself.

00:39:35.000 And, you know, I was very young and I always looked in the mirror and said, you know, I'm really a very bad person because why did they pick me from all those people?

00:39:47.000 You know.

00:39:48.000 And so what did you make of that?

00:39:49.000 And so what did you make of that?

00:39:50.000 What was your explanation for that?

00:39:51.000 I mean, you said you thought you were a bad person.

00:39:53.000 Was there, but did you experience, you said that the Germans were nice people, but that, but you talked about this screening.

00:40:01.000 So did you experience other forms of treatment that made you feel that way, or was it primarily the, the airport screening?

00:40:08.000 Not only also when you look for a job, you know, during the, the, like vacation, they always prefer like native German, which I mean, I kind of understand, but this all like, I'm not giving any value judgment to any of this Jordan.

00:40:28.000 I'm just telling you how I felt, I felt, I have, I had very low self-esteem and then I started to completely neglect myself, neglect like what I wear, which made the things worse.

00:40:47.000 Was it loans?

00:40:48.000 Was it because you were alone?

00:40:49.000 I mean, you know, you said you hadn't been alone and now all of a sudden you were basically on your own in this strange country.

00:40:55.000 I mean, how much of being detached from your family and your tribe for that matter, do you think contributed to your, to your depression and the darkness perhaps and the cold, all of these things?

00:41:07.000 Yes.

00:41:08.000 A lot.

00:41:09.000 Your family is the one that gives you your self-esteem.

00:41:15.000 My mother is the one who tells me, you have value.

00:41:20.000 You are a good person.

00:41:22.000 You are a very important person.

00:41:25.000 And that's, I have always to be reminded of who I am.

00:41:31.000 And in Germany, I tend to forget, you know, who I am.

00:41:35.000 And I tend to forget those people value me.

00:41:37.000 My mother values me no matter what.

00:41:40.000 And it's like all, all, every time is a wake up call.

00:41:45.000 Okay.

00:41:46.000 I'm very important person to my family, you know, to my surrounding.

00:41:52.000 And I always remember this eerie music at airport.

00:41:57.000 Martha, Otto, Heinrich, Emil, Martha, Emil, Dora, Otto, Ulrich, Ulrich, Otto, Ulrich, Ludwig, Dora, Siegfried, Ludwig, Anton, Heinrich, Ida.

00:42:09.000 He sees the German code to spell my name over the phone.

00:42:18.000 So to see whether I'm a wanted person.

00:42:21.000 And this is very hurtful to me, you know, and my life would not get any better.

00:42:28.000 And I tell you why, because we need to mention the elephant in the room here.

00:42:34.000 Why did the United States arrest me, kidnapping?

00:42:39.000 Why were they interested in me?

00:42:41.000 Yes.

00:42:42.000 Well, we definitely want to get to that.

00:42:44.000 Yes.

00:42:45.000 So if you want, I can go ahead and tell you.

00:42:48.000 Well, so we've got, you're in Germany.

00:42:49.000 You've been there a number of years.

00:42:50.000 So let's, sure, let's progress with the story.

00:42:53.000 And that story was, I would say, three minutes, phone call that completely changed my life.

00:43:04.000 I would never be talking to you if it hadn't been for that phone call.

00:43:09.000 So in, I was like, I wasn't doing very well.

00:43:14.000 So I'm not saying, oh, I was doing very well.

00:43:17.000 And then this phone call.

00:43:18.000 So I was like, you know, I was like struggling in my marriage, you know, and I was looking for jobs because, you know, like I told you, I wasn't German.

00:43:31.000 And so, and it was very hard and my papers were not, I didn't have like the green card that I was still waiting to get my green card.

00:43:42.000 And I just got it.

00:43:44.000 Actually, when I had this phone call, I just, my life start to get really good.

00:43:50.000 And the phone rang.

00:43:55.000 I was living in Friedrich-Ebert-Strasse.

00:43:59.000 I remember.

00:44:01.000 And I pick it up.

00:44:03.000 It was my brother, my ex-brother-in-law.

00:44:06.000 And he asked me, he said, my father is very sick and I need your help.

00:44:12.000 I said, of course.

00:44:14.000 He said, I have some money, but I cannot transfer it, but I can send it to you to Germany because, and then you can send it to my father.

00:44:23.000 I said, no problem.

00:44:25.000 I think it was about $5,000.

00:44:28.000 If I remember correctly, a lot of money.

00:44:31.000 And that's it.

00:44:34.000 That was the phone call.

00:44:35.000 He sent me the money and I took it physically.

00:44:38.000 And I gave it to some of the people who come back and forth, do commerce in Germany and I know.

00:44:47.000 And, but there was a problem with this phone call.

00:44:51.000 This phone call was conducted from a mobile satellite phone that belonged to the late Osama Bin Laden.

00:45:01.000 And my brother-in-law was a close friend to Osama Bin Laden.

00:45:07.000 So, so the American, you know, put one and one together and they assumed that I was up to no good because Osama Bin Laden back then already declared war against the United States, against innocent people of the United States.

00:45:29.000 I was not aware of any of this.

00:45:32.000 No, I was aware of the, the problem.

00:45:35.000 And when they investigated, when I was taken into custody, but no, no, I'm forwarding really too fast.

00:45:45.000 So they.

00:45:46.000 So the money was sent to you and you distributed to some people to get it to your friend's father.

00:45:52.000 That's, that's what happened.

00:45:54.000 Correct.

00:45:55.000 That's it.

00:45:56.000 The money trail was very clear where the money landed because I was not the only person he contacted that day.

00:46:03.000 He did two phone calls I know of.

00:46:05.000 He contacted me and he contacted the person who would receive the money in, in Mauritania.

00:46:11.000 Do you think he had any sense that he was putting you in danger?

00:46:15.000 Yeah.

00:46:16.000 To be perfectly honest.

00:46:25.000 It's very hard to, to read what was in his mind, but he put me, he completely changed my life in a very negative way.

00:46:35.000 Right.

00:46:36.000 Well, and you did say that his father was ill.

00:46:38.000 And so obviously he was, at least in principle, motivated to help his father.

00:46:43.000 So perhaps that was obscuring his vision.

00:46:46.000 I mean, did he know that, that did he, do you think he knew that there was a possibility that using telecommunication equipment that was associated with bin Laden might not be such a good thing for you?

00:46:57.000 I mean, maybe he didn't.

00:46:58.000 I'm just curious what you think.

00:47:01.000 He took very, he, he did not consult me.

00:47:11.000 So he made this decision for me.

00:47:13.000 That's for sure.

00:47:15.000 And I don't think that he thought that the phone was even tapped.

00:47:22.000 Right.

00:47:23.000 But he did it now that some people who were sitting with Osama bin Laden day in, day out were working with the CIA.

00:47:32.000 Very close, very close friends of Osama bin Laden were transmitting information to the CIA, you know, and he was very blinded, I guess.

00:47:45.000 And I have to mention, he was investigated and he is now Freeman and they did not find any, any connection with him and any like wrongdoing.

00:47:56.000 I see.

00:47:57.000 He was just associate of Osama bin Laden.

00:47:59.000 They were like friends, but he did not engage with him in any of, in any, in any attacks or anything.

00:48:07.000 So I, I just need to mention that.

00:48:09.000 Okay.

00:48:10.000 Now you also mentioned that you were married.

00:48:12.000 So you got married in Germany?

00:48:14.000 Yes.

00:48:15.000 My wife, my ex wife is a Palestinian German.

00:48:19.000 And, you know, at that, and I wasn't like doing well in my marriage.

00:48:29.000 So I have to say that.

00:48:31.000 And, you know, I don't know whether you ever found yourself in a relationship where you don't want to get out of it because you don't want to bear the shame.

00:48:43.000 Of being the person who is responsible for breaking up, you know, the relationship, but you didn't want the relationship somehow.

00:48:55.000 I was in that very bad situation, you know.

00:48:58.000 Right.

00:48:59.000 So you had a couple of things that weren't going so well.

00:49:01.000 So you were, you were depressed about your situation in Germany and your marriage wasn't going well.

00:49:06.000 And then this phone call came and you, you, you transmitted the money.

00:49:10.000 What happened after that?

00:49:12.000 That everything went downhill.

00:49:15.000 So this was like late 98, early 99.

00:49:20.000 So the police, I was not arrested.

00:49:23.000 I was never interrogated.

00:49:24.000 I was never held.

00:49:25.000 I was never invited by the police.

00:49:28.000 Never.

00:49:29.000 So German found no ground to arrest me or to even question.

00:49:35.000 But they went to our Imam.

00:49:37.000 That is like the priest, the equivalent of a priest in church.

00:49:41.000 And they found, so they made an appointment with the Imam and they told him this one of the people who come to your mosque is being investigated.

00:49:56.000 And then he was laughing.

00:49:58.000 And when they showed him the picture, he would, he told me later on, he said, this guy wouldn't hurt a fly.

00:50:03.000 I know him very well.

00:50:05.000 They said, that's maybe, we may even agree with you, but a very powerful country is interested in him.

00:50:15.000 And this was like almost a tip of that.

00:50:19.000 I should be careful not to travel, but I freaked out.

00:50:25.000 And then I had a friend.

00:50:27.000 You heard this from the Imam?

00:50:28.000 Yes.

00:50:29.000 He told you this had happened?

00:50:30.000 Yes.

00:50:31.000 And so what did you think when he told you that?

00:50:35.000 Actually, I wasn't surprised because my family already called me.

00:50:40.000 Because when I was called this, he also called my other cousin who would receive the money.

00:50:47.000 My cousin was arrested immediately and put in prison for two months.

00:50:52.000 So my family knew that he was being wanted.

00:50:57.000 He was wanted.

00:50:58.000 And they told me never to receive any phone calls from him and not to accept this phone call and not to accept to interact with him.

00:51:07.000 So I wasn't surprised actually.

00:51:09.000 Right.

00:51:10.000 You knew something was up and not something good.

00:51:12.000 Yes.

00:51:13.000 Yes.

00:51:14.000 And who got, sorry, who got arrested?

00:51:16.000 Was it the person you delivered the money to or the person who sent the money?

00:51:20.000 No.

00:51:21.000 The person whom I delivered the money to.

00:51:24.000 The other person was never arrested.

00:51:27.000 Ever.

00:51:28.000 And was the person who received the money arrested in Germany?

00:51:31.000 No, no, no, no, no.

00:51:32.000 Germany is a country ruled by law.

00:51:35.000 They don't arrest you.

00:51:36.000 He was arrested in Mauritania because at least back then it was, it didn't respect the proper legal procedure.

00:51:48.000 And because the US government sent two notices, one to Mauritania and one to Germany.

00:51:54.000 Germany says we cannot arrest him without evidence.

00:51:57.000 Mauritania said we arrest him.

00:52:00.000 That's the difference.

00:52:01.000 So you received the money in Germany.

00:52:03.000 Did you give the money to this person in Germany and then he went back to Mauritania?

00:52:08.000 No, no.

00:52:09.000 I sent, I sent it to him.

00:52:10.000 So I sent it to him to what they call loosely Hawale.

00:52:14.000 So you give to a person in Germany and the person, person call his family or his associates

00:52:22.000 to give the money in Mauritania because.

00:52:25.000 I see.

00:52:26.000 I see.

00:52:27.000 Okay.

00:52:28.000 No, they change money.

00:52:29.000 Currency.

00:52:30.000 Okay.

00:52:31.000 So you used a service that did, that moved money.

00:52:35.000 Yes, absolutely.

00:52:36.000 Okay.

00:52:37.000 That's okay.

00:52:38.000 So I freaked out.

00:52:40.000 And I said, I need to, to leave Germany.

00:52:43.000 I cannot live in a place where people think I'm a bad person.

00:52:47.000 And then, you know, I did.

00:52:50.000 So my friend lived in Montreal.

00:52:54.000 Uh, Mohsin.

00:52:55.000 His name is Mohsin.

00:52:56.000 He's my, he's five years, my senior.

00:52:59.000 He finished his study at the same university.

00:53:02.000 We became very good friends.

00:53:03.000 And he moved to Canada and he was working and living in Canada.

00:53:06.000 He was Canadian, uh, he became Canadian citizen when I arrived.

00:53:11.000 And, uh, he told me Canada is a very good country.

00:53:16.000 You have what you study is very, uh, wanted and you can apply.

00:53:21.000 And I applied and I had this as a plan B and I was accepted right away.

00:53:26.000 You know, because they need a lot of IT people and so on and so forth.

00:53:31.000 And then I said, I'm moving to Canada, joining my friends.

00:53:35.000 And in November.

00:53:38.000 Of 99.

00:53:40.000 I purchased one way ticket and I moved to Canada.

00:53:45.000 As luck had it.

00:53:47.000 In December, 15 of December, a person by the name of Ahmed Rassam tried to cross the Canadian

00:53:54.000 US border with explosive and harm innocent people.

00:54:01.000 So Americans said, okay, what's going on?

00:54:05.000 So this guy had a phone call from Osama Bin Laden's phone.

00:54:11.000 And he came to Canada one month later.

00:54:14.000 A guy who attended this mosque.

00:54:18.000 In a one way ticket.

00:54:20.000 Yeah.

00:54:21.000 One way ticket.

00:54:22.000 And, uh, and they made this, this very wild theory based on circumstances.

00:54:29.000 That was very wild and very harming to me.

00:54:32.000 And this called me the mastermind of a millennium plot.

00:54:38.000 And of course they told Canadian, Canadian were very worried, obviously, but Canadian could

00:54:45.000 not arrest me because there was no evidence, obviously, because I don't know the guy.

00:54:51.000 I never heard of him.

00:54:52.000 I never met him.

00:54:53.000 And, uh, and let alone like conspiring with him to harm innocent people in the US.

00:55:01.000 So they assumed that you were associated with this, with this person who had been bringing

00:55:08.000 explosives in.

00:55:09.000 That I was the mastermind.

00:55:11.000 I was the one.

00:55:12.000 I see.

00:55:13.000 You planned that.

00:55:14.000 And this was your next step.

00:55:15.000 Was it?

00:55:16.000 Correct.

00:55:17.000 Yes.

00:55:18.000 Correct.

00:55:19.000 And so Canadian, but Canadian did not arrest me, but they were very aggressive.

00:55:22.000 They put like a listening device in the apartment where I lived and they, uh, spied on my conversation.

00:55:32.000 I would know that later on in Guantanamo Bay, because I was faced with my phone calls in Montreal.

00:55:39.000 I mean, and, uh, so American, like said, this guy is very smart.

00:55:47.000 He does not leave any trail.

00:55:48.000 This guy, he speaks like German, Arabic, French, and he's engineer and he's, he's not going to leave a trail.

00:55:57.000 Right.

00:55:58.000 So we need, we need to lure him to a place where there is no law because we cannot arrest

00:56:05.000 him in Canada.

00:56:06.000 We cannot arrest him in the US.

00:56:07.000 We cannot arrest him in Canada because in Germany, because, because we don't have the

00:56:14.000 evidence.

00:56:15.000 He needs to provide the evidence himself.

00:56:17.000 Hmm.

00:56:18.000 So they assumed you were an engineer, that you were multilingual, that you had purchased

00:56:22.000 a one-way ticket to Canada, that you were associated with bin Laden, that you were tangled

00:56:26.000 up with this previous terrorist.

00:56:28.000 That was all part of the, and that you were, and that you were smart enough to cover your

00:56:33.000 tracks.

00:56:34.000 Yes.

00:56:35.000 And I needed to be arrested and to be a roughed up quote unquote, in order to tell them everything.

00:56:41.000 And people were freaking out and, you know, I'm, I'm, I'm very some sympathetic to law enforcement,

00:56:49.000 you know, especially in democracies who try to protect people.

00:56:54.000 And, and I, I could see the logic behind everything.

00:56:59.000 What I couldn't see is like treating someone outside the rule of law because Canada is advanced.

00:57:07.000 Canada is safe because of the rule of law.

00:57:10.000 In the Middle East countries are either failing or failed countries because the lack of the

00:57:16.000 rule of law, because ironically, those gloves, the gloves of the law are the one that keep

00:57:24.000 countries safe and prosperous.

00:57:27.000 So Canadian intelligence, American intelligence, and Mauritania intelligence agreed to an operation

00:57:35.000 that would have me lured outside of Canada and kidnapped.

00:57:40.000 So the Mauritania intelligence approached my mother and they said, Mohamedou is in a lot

00:57:45.000 of trouble in Canada and you need to call him back home.

00:57:49.000 And so we could like, we could like clear his name and he could go back to Canada and work just

00:57:55.000 like anyone.

00:57:56.000 And who, who made that claim?

00:57:58.000 Sorry.

00:57:59.000 Who was the, who contacted your mother?

00:58:00.000 Uh, the Mauritania intelligence.

00:58:02.000 The Mauritania intelligence.

00:58:03.000 Okay.

00:58:04.000 Correct.

00:58:05.000 Or the lack thereof.

00:58:06.000 So, and, and so my mother, you know, she was a Bedouin and she, her understanding that the

00:58:15.000 state, you know, we should abide the state, you know, especially in the military.

00:58:22.000 Like I grew up in a military dictatorship and we were very scared, very afraid.

00:58:27.000 And whatever happens, she did not understand Canada is a country ruled by law and I shouldn't

00:58:34.000 be afraid to be in Canada.

00:58:35.000 So she said, whatever happens to me is better to happen in Mauritania than to happen in Canada

00:58:40.000 because all countries are the same.

00:58:43.000 And so she called me, said, I'm sick.

00:58:46.000 You need to get home.

00:58:48.000 I purchased my ticket the next day.

00:58:51.000 And I, I, I left Canada on January 20th of 2000.

00:58:58.000 I arrived in Dakar, Senegal, where my family waited on me on 21st, January 21st, 2000.

00:59:07.000 From the airport, I was kidnapped and interrogated in Senegal.

00:59:12.000 And who, who picked you up?

00:59:14.000 Who kidnapped you?

00:59:15.000 And why do you use that phrase specifically?

00:59:18.000 I don't know.

00:59:22.000 I guess.

00:59:23.000 Okay.

00:59:24.000 Okay.

00:59:25.000 Okay.

00:59:26.000 Okay.

00:59:27.000 I guess.

00:59:28.000 Why did I use it?

00:59:30.000 Okay.

00:59:31.000 So I think it would end up in a kidnapping because of what, of course, of what I'm going

00:59:38.000 to tell you.

00:59:39.000 So Senegalese told me, we arrest you.

00:59:42.000 Uh, we arrest you in the name of law.

00:59:47.000 We arrest you in the name of the law.

00:59:51.000 That was very okay with me.

00:59:54.000 Very good.

00:59:55.000 They took me to prison and they interrogated me.

00:59:58.000 And then they said, there is no evidence against you.

01:00:00.000 They told me.

01:00:01.000 So you're free to go.

01:00:03.000 Americans said, he cannot go.

01:00:08.000 They put me in a plane against my will.

01:00:11.000 The American, they chartered the place.

01:00:14.000 So you got freed from the Senegalese prison.

01:00:16.000 Yes.

01:00:17.000 And were you, were you reunited with your family?

01:00:19.000 What happened?

01:00:20.000 What, what, what was exactly the sequence of events?

01:00:23.000 So America, so Senegalese told me, Muhammad, we're free to go.

01:00:27.000 We have nothing against you.

01:00:30.000 So Americans in the embassy, they ask them not to release me because they want me.

01:00:35.000 So they sent a car, you know, a SUV from the embassy and the embassy took my custody.

01:00:44.000 And what did they tell you when they picked you up?

01:00:47.000 No, no talking, nothing.

01:00:50.000 I was just put in chains and then they took me.

01:00:53.000 They chartered the plane.

01:00:55.000 They sent me to Mauritania.

01:00:57.000 So what did you think was going on?

01:01:00.000 Uh, I, I.

01:01:04.000 I, I was thinking they want to torture me because they want me to, yes, yes.

01:01:10.000 Because they didn't want you to go back to Canada because they went so far.

01:01:15.000 I went so far.

01:01:16.000 I couldn't go back because Canada was like a protection for me, a protection for quote

01:01:21.000 unquote, bad guy.

01:01:22.000 This is a bad guy and they need to crack.

01:01:25.000 He need to tell us what he did.

01:01:27.000 Did you know it was Americans that had picked you up when you got into the SUV?

01:01:31.000 Yes.

01:01:32.000 Yes.

01:01:33.000 Yes.

01:01:34.000 Yes.

01:01:35.000 I know because Senegalese told me Americans are the one who sent the report.

01:01:38.000 They are the one who asked them to arrest me.

01:01:41.000 You know, you, we need to understand that Senegal is a democracy and it's ruled by law.

01:01:48.000 So, and, uh, but it's not strong enough to oppose the, the encroachment of, uh, American embassy.

01:01:56.000 So they were, they are not so as strong as Canadian institution.

01:02:01.000 Because can in Canada, the U S embassy cannot take people because that would be in breach

01:02:08.000 of grave, uh, breach of Canadian laws.

01:02:12.000 So, so many people would get in trouble, you know, but anyway, so they put me in that plane,

01:02:18.000 very small.

01:02:19.000 And the, the, the, it was so small that I could see the pilot.

01:02:24.000 The pilot was a female, a French female pilot.

01:02:27.000 And she was just like a taxi, taxi driver with small plane.

01:02:32.000 And she just chartered her small plane, you know, to move people who are, you know, from

01:02:37.000 one place to the other.

01:02:38.000 And I prayed and I almost was fantasizing that the plane crash.

01:02:44.000 And that I survived the crash because I, I don't like pain.

01:02:50.000 And I read so much about torture and I don't like torture.

01:02:54.000 So I was delivered to the Mauritanian.

01:02:58.000 Did you, did you have any sense at that point of why you were in trouble?

01:03:04.000 I didn't know.

01:03:06.000 I didn't know, but I kind of, I kind of know because Canadian countries,

01:03:13.000 because Canadian came to my home and they, they told me, they interrogated me about Ahmed

01:03:19.000 Rassar, but they didn't.

01:03:20.000 I see.

01:03:21.000 I see.

01:03:22.000 Right.

01:03:23.000 Right.

01:03:24.000 And you knew also that there had been some trouble around the money transfer.

01:03:26.000 And did you know at that point of this association with Obama Bin Laden?

01:03:30.000 No, no, nothing.

01:03:32.000 Nothing yet.

01:03:33.000 Okay.

01:03:34.000 No, no, no, no, no mentioning even of the name of my former brother-in-law.

01:03:39.000 And so I, so, so I just was, I cannot describe to you the pain of the prospect of being tortured.

01:03:57.000 I cannot describe.

01:03:58.000 What were you imagining?

01:03:59.000 What did you think was going to happen?

01:04:03.000 I was very serene.

01:04:04.000 And I was thinking like existential like question, because like my, one of my bodyguard seems

01:04:19.000 to be very religious person because he kept like praying in the plane.

01:04:24.000 And I was asking myself, what is the role of religion to how, how much can a religious person do?

01:04:35.000 You know, and where does a religious person say, I'm not doing this.

01:04:40.000 I'm stopping.

01:04:41.000 And this was like too much like to think about because a guard cannot, has to trust somehow the state because he doesn't know who I am.

01:04:53.000 You know, as far as they're concerned, like his boss told him, this is a vicious person.

01:04:58.000 He was planning to kill random people, children, women, old people, young people randomly at an airport in the US.

01:05:09.000 So, and, and I was seeing my city, the city of New Yorkshire.

01:05:16.000 And I could see the, the, the, the palette after a storm, a sandstorm, you know, the colors and people very tiny walking and the favelas, you know, where I grew up, I could see everything.

01:05:34.000 And the helplessness, you know, of me not being able to be happy because in like five minutes, I would walk out of the plane, greeting my family, drinking tea, telling them stories.

01:05:49.000 I knew I was going to a prison cell.

01:05:52.000 I was almost certain I would be tortured.

01:05:55.000 And I was thinking, what does feel like to be tortured?

01:06:01.000 I don't know, but I read books and, and I was thinking about the brave people who survived torture.

01:06:10.000 And I knew Jordan, I was not a brave person because I want to crack at the very first moment.

01:06:19.000 You know, I did not want to resist because the pain, you know, I love this thing.

01:06:25.000 I was saying Jordan, the most powerful weapon of your oppressor is, is in your mind.

01:06:33.000 You're right.

01:06:34.000 Yes.

01:06:35.000 Well, that's why I was asking you what you were imagining, you know, because.

01:06:37.000 I was defeated.

01:06:38.000 That can be terrible.

01:06:39.000 I was absolutely defeated.

01:06:42.000 And the pain I felt in my stomach, in my abdomen.

01:06:46.000 And I felt like in my, in my mouth, very like, very bitter taste in my mouth.

01:06:55.000 And, you know, the helplessness, you know, I mean, Jordan, you, you have to appreciate where you live.

01:07:04.000 You have to appreciate that you grew up in a democracy and you take it for granted that no, no one can take you without giving you a reason why they take you to the police.

01:07:15.000 And you have a big mouth.

01:07:16.000 You can say, no, I need a lawyer.

01:07:18.000 I don't need to talk to you.

01:07:20.000 And you can like start and develop your narrative with your lawyer, everything, you know, to save yourself.

01:07:29.000 None of that.

01:07:31.000 So in, in a country that is not ruled by law, you have none of these rights, you know.

01:07:39.000 So they took me in a Renault 12 from airport, very old.

01:07:47.000 And, you know, Mauritania, we are like Bedouin.

01:07:51.000 And they would, they want to put a mask over my face, though I couldn't see.

01:07:54.000 They didn't have a mask prepared.

01:07:56.000 And then one of them give me his turban that he used on his head.

01:08:01.000 He said, you need to wrap this turban around your head, very tightly.

01:08:06.000 And I could smell his sweat, you know.

01:08:11.000 And so they took me to a secret prison and they start interrogating.

01:08:20.000 And so, and like my past start to come out.

01:08:25.000 So in my past, in 91, between 90 and 92, I spent a couple of months on two different occasions in Afghanistan.

01:08:37.000 They came to our mask and they wanted like to gather like money.

01:08:43.000 And so it was a very big like thing in Germany.

01:08:47.000 And this was a campaign that was, that was supported by Germany, supported by the U.S., by my government, by Canada, by the U.S. to help the Mujahideen, the so-called Mujahideen.

01:09:01.000 And I was very young.

01:09:02.000 I said, oh, I need to be part of this.

01:09:04.000 And I went there and I didn't like it.

01:09:07.000 And then I left.

01:09:08.000 But this was nonetheless something.

01:09:10.000 I told them, I'm sorry, I went there.

01:09:13.000 And so, and, and so after one month of interrogation, Muretanian, they did not torture me.

01:09:22.000 They did not torture me.

01:09:24.000 So, and they.

01:09:27.000 And did, did anything else come to light during that interrogation that cast you in a bad, in a bad light that, that was hard on your reputation?

01:09:36.000 No, nothing, nothing.

01:09:38.000 Because it turns out Muretanian knew that I went to Afghanistan because they, it's in my passport because I went, there is a stamp in my passport.

01:09:47.000 So they knew that.

01:09:48.000 And what only came to light was that, that, I don't know, they told me, like, American wouldn't provide them any evidence.

01:10:01.000 And they were stuck because, because Muretanian told Americans to take me, but Americans refused.

01:10:10.000 And Muretanian like were actually breaking the law by offering me because you cannot, you cannot turn off a Muretanian citizen once they hit the Muretanian ground.

01:10:25.000 So you have to try them if they did any crimes, no matter what.

01:10:30.000 So why, why do you think you weren't tortured?

01:10:33.000 Was it, was it a standard practice there and, or not?

01:10:36.000 And, and if so, why did you escape torture?

01:10:39.000 Okay.

01:10:40.000 You see, like, intelligence, like in authoritarian regime, they don't just jump on you and torture you.

01:10:52.000 They have to have good reasons.

01:10:54.000 So we have to be very objective when we describe things.

01:10:58.000 So they told me, if I don't cooperate with them, they will torture me.

01:11:02.000 If there is evidence, they have to know I'm hiding something.

01:11:06.000 But Americans wouldn't provide them any evidence that I'm hiding anything that I didn't tell them.

01:11:13.000 And I adamantly told them that I had no clue about Miller and Platt.

01:11:18.000 I don't know Ahmed Rassam.

01:11:20.000 I never met him.

01:11:21.000 And American wouldn't give them any evidence to the contrary.

01:11:25.000 So they, so they were somewhat inclined to believe you.

01:11:28.000 They did believe me.

01:11:30.000 They did believe me.

01:11:31.000 And they told American either you give us the evidence or we're going to release him.

01:11:36.000 And then American asked them a favor.

01:11:38.000 They said, okay, take away his passport and don't let him go back to Canada.

01:11:43.000 We retain an intelligence as usual, ever breaking the law.

01:11:48.000 They took my passport and they did not allow.

01:11:51.000 And Canadians also asked them not to allow me to travel back to Canada because Canadians found them in a very hot spot.

01:12:00.000 Because Canada is very close to the US.

01:12:04.000 And they just don't want any trouble with the big brother, which is understandable.

01:12:11.000 And I said to myself, okay, they took my passport.

01:12:16.000 I went there.

01:12:18.000 I went to, I applied for a job and I found a very good job as a programmer and administrator.

01:12:27.000 And I start like writing code.

01:12:30.000 And until 9-11 happened, I was arrested, kidnapped.

01:12:35.000 And that's it.

01:12:37.000 And tortured.

01:12:40.000 All right.

01:12:41.000 So you're in Mauritania.

01:12:43.000 They let you out.

01:12:45.000 You've been imprisoned there, but you have a story and the Mauritanians accept the story.

01:12:51.000 What happens after that?

01:12:52.000 So they told me I cannot travel because the United States did not want to travel.

01:12:57.000 And I said, okay, I just find a job in Mauritania.

01:13:00.000 You know, my dream, my dreams of studying for my PhD in Canada were dashed.

01:13:06.000 I said, it's okay.

01:13:09.000 You know, I need to work anyway.

01:13:11.000 And then I found a job in Mauritania.

01:13:13.000 And I start feeding my family for like over a year until 9-11 happened.

01:13:21.000 And everything changed.

01:13:24.000 So you're in Mauritania, 9-11 happens, but you're working and you're taking care of your family in Mauritania.

01:13:32.000 Yes.

01:13:33.000 And so 9-11 happens.

01:13:35.000 And what happens to you?

01:13:36.000 What's the consequence of that?

01:13:38.000 On 29th of September, that is about a little bit over two weeks after 9-11, I received a phone call again from the police, Mauritania police.

01:13:54.000 And then they said, we need to talk to you.

01:13:57.000 I said, okay.

01:13:58.000 The guy said, where are you?

01:14:00.000 I said, where are you?

01:14:01.000 I'm coming to you.

01:14:03.000 And they said, okay, I'm at this and that place.

01:14:06.000 And then I drove my car and met him.

01:14:10.000 And he was very frank.

01:14:11.000 He told me American told us to arrest him.

01:14:14.000 I said, why don't you tell them that I didn't do anything?

01:14:18.000 He said, they're very angry because of 9-11 and just bear with me.

01:14:24.000 They just will ask you some questions.

01:14:27.000 They will let you go.

01:14:29.000 And then they came and they brought the German translator.

01:14:35.000 And then they interrogated me.

01:14:37.000 I don't know who interrogated me.

01:14:39.000 So a guy, maybe CIA, maybe FBI, maybe I don't know.

01:14:44.000 And where did that take place?

01:14:46.000 In Mauritania prison.

01:14:47.000 Okay.

01:14:48.000 And they left.

01:14:52.000 And then again, Mauritania released me.

01:14:56.000 And then after one month, they took me again.

01:15:01.000 And then they told me that American wants me in Jordan.

01:15:06.000 And I lost it.

01:15:08.000 I lost it.

01:15:09.000 I said, this is too much.

01:15:12.000 Because I guess American figured out this is his home.

01:15:17.000 This is his tribe.

01:15:19.000 And this is a corrupt regime.

01:15:21.000 Maybe they're protecting him.

01:15:22.000 We need to take him outside of his comfort zone where he has no tribes and we torture him.

01:15:28.000 And then he will, he will like tell us everything.

01:15:33.000 And that's exactly what happened.

01:15:36.000 So they took me.

01:15:37.000 So they took me to the airport.

01:15:39.000 Now was that Mauritanians or Americans that took you to the airport?

01:15:44.000 Mauritanian.

01:15:45.000 Okay.

01:15:46.000 So you're taken to the airport.

01:15:48.000 Yes.

01:15:49.000 And they put me in a plane with five people.

01:15:53.000 Two, uh, sex people, two pilots, because they, two pilots and two interrogators and two, uh, people with masks.

01:16:07.000 I couldn't, they didn't talk.

01:16:08.000 They just with masks, like, uh, kind of commandos, special team.

01:16:14.000 And, uh, so when they took me.

01:16:18.000 So what were you thinking on this plane?

01:16:21.000 What, what should I think?

01:16:24.000 Just so much pain.

01:16:26.000 I just died a thousand times.

01:16:29.000 You know, I know I was going to torture.

01:16:32.000 I know a hundred percent I was going to go.

01:16:35.000 And the, the, the, the ride was about 12 hours.

01:16:40.000 And one of the station, one of the airplane, one of the airport was in Cyprus.

01:16:47.000 Cyprus is part of the European Union.

01:16:50.000 And they signatory of, uh, confession against Torsi, just like Mauritania.

01:16:56.000 And I was hoping that they would, that they would board the plane and inspect the people, passports and everything.

01:17:08.000 Because for an African guy to get a visa to Europe, it's almost like next to impossible.

01:17:14.000 But now I'm going through Europe without even a passport.

01:17:18.000 And I want to be arrested as a criminal and put in prison, you know?

01:17:24.000 And this never happened because everybody was owning it.

01:17:28.000 And I say, Jordan, this is one of the biggest, uh, of the biggest betrayal of U.S. citizens.

01:17:36.000 United States stood with Europe against the national source, socialism.

01:17:42.000 And Europe after 9-11 enabled the United States to gravely violate human rights.

01:17:50.000 Instead of standing up to the government and said, no, American people deserve better.

01:17:56.000 And America is better than doing this.

01:17:59.000 America is ruled by the law.

01:18:01.000 America should lead the world in human rights.

01:18:04.000 It should not violate human rights.

01:18:05.000 Because this would open, uh, uh, a can of worms and would give like a carte blanche to all those horrific regimes to do whatever they wanted.

01:18:17.000 And I landed in Jordan.

01:18:20.000 And then I was put in this secret prison.

01:18:23.000 And most of the time I didn't know day from night.

01:18:28.000 You know, I was beaten only two times during eight months.

01:18:33.000 And, uh, but the thing that hurt me so much when they took me to listen to torture sessions, you know, they blindfolded me.

01:18:44.000 They put me in a room and they start torturing this person, you know, for me to break.

01:18:50.000 And I couldn't.

01:18:51.000 Do you, do you think that the, what was that tape?

01:18:55.000 Do you think, or was it something that was happening right there?

01:18:58.000 Do you think?

01:18:59.000 Jordan?

01:19:00.000 I didn't know.

01:19:01.000 I mean, this is a very smart question.

01:19:03.000 That's fine.

01:19:04.000 Smart question, but.

01:19:05.000 I mean, it doesn't matter really from your perspective when you're there because, but I'm, you know, I'm curious, I suppose about the methods.

01:19:13.000 Yes.

01:19:14.000 Yes.

01:19:15.000 I mean, it's, it's horrific.

01:19:18.000 The problem that the problem with that, I couldn't get the, the, the, the, the Christ off my head.

01:19:27.000 Yeah.

01:19:28.000 So they put me back in my cell.

01:19:29.000 I couldn't sleep.

01:19:30.000 I couldn't sleep for this.

01:19:32.000 And then I would like plug my ears.

01:19:34.000 And then I hear even louder when I plug my ears, you know, the more I plug my ears, the more I hear it.

01:19:42.000 Because, because it's in the brain.

01:19:45.000 And the brain does not need your eyes or your ears to see or hear, you know, because the brain can hear.

01:19:52.000 How often were you exposed to that sort of thing?

01:19:55.000 Uh, I remember like.

01:19:59.000 Uh, maybe a dozen.

01:20:10.000 But I was only moved twice.

01:20:13.000 So I have a question for you.

01:20:15.000 If you had to be beaten or you had to listen to people being tortured.

01:20:19.000 I know this is a terrible question, but it speaks to the intensity of listening to people being tortured.

01:20:25.000 Which of those was more torturous?

01:20:28.000 Listening.

01:20:29.000 Absolutely.

01:20:30.000 No question asked.

01:20:31.000 Why?

01:20:32.000 Yes.

01:20:33.000 Because when they start beating me.

01:20:38.000 Okay.

01:20:39.000 A lot of anxiety and a lot of inside pain goes away.

01:20:45.000 Because my body is weak.

01:20:47.000 And the problem is to have like strong body and destroyed soul.

01:20:51.000 Because somehow the soul and body has to be balanced out.

01:20:56.000 So, if you like, if you threaten me, and then you put me in a situation, especially if you have power over me, put me in a situation that is so painful.

01:21:07.000 And I, I'm eating myself from inside.

01:21:11.000 But when you beat me, and then you cause me pain.

01:21:16.000 And that pain, this is horrible to say, but it's good for me.

01:21:22.000 To, because it weakens my, the sharpness of my mind to, to process the perceived pain that I maybe have ever seen.

01:21:38.000 It's like when you have depression and when you walk or when you work out, work out is just torturing yourself.

01:21:43.000 And then it goes, dissipates somehow.

01:21:46.000 Uh huh.

01:21:47.000 So how long were you in prison in Jordan?

01:21:51.000 Very good question.

01:21:54.000 So, uh, I tried to keep like, to keep a calendar in my head.

01:22:00.000 So I say one, two, three.

01:22:04.000 I wasn't bad.

01:22:06.000 So when, when they told me you are going out.

01:22:09.000 I, I, they gave me a paper to sign.

01:22:16.000 I was expecting July 31st, 2002.

01:22:21.000 I saw the paper July 20 or 21st.

01:22:25.000 I don't remember.

01:22:26.000 I was completely off, you know, because nights and days for somehow, uh, somehow mixed with each other.

01:22:38.000 I don't know why.

01:22:39.000 Well, you said you weren't sleeping well, and that's not surprising.

01:22:42.000 Yes.

01:22:43.000 And so that could easily, I mean, and you're, and I presume how much time did you spend outside?

01:22:47.000 Uh, maybe 20 minutes or 25 minutes outside.

01:22:57.000 It, per day or in total?

01:23:00.000 No, in total.

01:23:01.000 Oh, so never really?

01:23:03.000 Yes.

01:23:04.000 And what did your family-

01:23:06.000 That took me one time outside.

01:23:07.000 And I was so scared.

01:23:08.000 Because, you know, you are so vulnerable when you are exposed to torture.

01:23:14.000 Because, you feel like, I want my torture, I want to be close to my torture.

01:23:19.000 I want my torture to be, to be satisfied.

01:23:23.000 You know, I want them to put me in this cell because that's what satisfies them.

01:23:27.000 You know, I don't want to be in a big space, you know.

01:23:31.000 And it's very weird to explain, you know, because I saw this torture has a God-like power, you know.

01:23:40.000 They give you food.

01:23:42.000 They talk to you.

01:23:43.000 They said, if you are a good guy, I'm going to treat you well.

01:23:47.000 If you are a bad guy, I'm going to punish you.

01:23:50.000 This is immediate, immediate power.

01:23:54.000 You know.

01:23:55.000 And, and, yes.

01:24:01.000 So, so, I want to tell you this epiphany a little bit because, because it's very important to understand, like, this kind of forgiveness that I really have in my heart.

01:24:21.000 So, they came to me, I was very weak.

01:24:24.000 After eight months of battering, eight months of mind destruction, mind and body, I was very weak.

01:24:32.000 I was about less than 100 pounds.

01:24:39.000 And I'm 171 or 172 centimeter.

01:24:44.000 And less than 100 pounds is really very skinny.

01:24:49.000 So, I, so they, they gave me this guy, throw a bag, a garbage bag in my cell, said, you're going home.

01:25:02.000 Then I took the bag.

01:25:04.000 I had very small belonging, like this big, like, like underwear.

01:25:11.000 And I think I had a t-shirt.

01:25:13.000 That's it.

01:25:14.000 And then he told me to turn around.

01:25:18.000 Ironically, that's a sign of respect to give your back side to the guard, because he wants to control you and put your hands behind your back and shackle.

01:25:30.000 And then he led me, always blindfolded.

01:25:34.000 I was never led to see anything, except when they push me inside the cell.

01:25:39.000 And then they, they, they, they remove the.

01:25:44.000 And then I sat in a chair like this, facing a guy, middle-aged guy.

01:25:51.000 He looks, he spoke almost like a religious figure.

01:25:55.000 And it was like, everybody around him was like out of focus because like a movie, you know, people who cannot see them very well.

01:26:06.000 My eyes were glued on him.

01:26:08.000 And he was telling me, okay, this is your belonging.

01:26:12.000 Okay.

01:26:13.000 And I was supposed to say that he was right.

01:26:15.000 I got everything back.

01:26:16.000 I think I had $80, something like that, or $100.

01:26:21.000 I don't know.

01:26:22.000 And then had my Canadian driver license, German driver license, passport.

01:26:29.000 And he said, is this everything?

01:26:32.000 Of course.

01:26:33.000 I said, yes.

01:26:34.000 What did he expect you to say?

01:26:37.000 And so this summary judgment of that would show that the prison staff was good, was done very quickly.

01:26:44.000 And what I want at that moment, I want to pee, but I couldn't tell him I want to pee because I want to go home.

01:26:53.000 And then they put me in this hearse, like blindfold, earmuffs, everything.

01:27:00.000 Then they drove me to the airport.

01:27:03.000 I could hear the roars of the engines because I was on the runway.

01:27:09.000 And all of a sudden, someone started to like cut open my clothes with very sharp scissors.

01:27:19.000 And then they stripped me completely naked.

01:27:22.000 And they put a diaper on, diapers on.

01:27:29.000 I figured I'm not going home.

01:27:32.000 And I'm not going to another prison in Jordan.

01:27:36.000 I'm going to the US.

01:27:38.000 And this was like confirmed when this guy briefly remove the blindfold and open my eyes.

01:27:49.000 And I could see his blonde hair on his arm.

01:27:55.000 He did not say anything.

01:27:57.000 And he had like very black, very black bag on his face mask on his face.

01:28:04.000 Well, could only see the eyes.

01:28:07.000 And the blue eyes, I presume.

01:28:10.000 I don't know if this is fake memory, but I figured he is not a Jordanian.

01:28:16.000 And I just imagined that this was the end of my life.

01:28:22.000 Did you think at any time then that you had your hopes been raised that you were maybe going home?

01:28:29.000 No.

01:28:30.000 No.

01:28:31.000 After this, I knew I was not going home.

01:28:34.000 No, before.

01:28:35.000 I meant on the way.

01:28:36.000 Before you hit the airport, did you think that maybe you were going to be free?

01:28:40.000 I was crying all the time.

01:28:41.000 And I was saying, this is the first time in my life I would enjoy a bathroom in an airplane.

01:28:49.000 I hate bathrooms in airplanes.

01:28:51.000 And this is so good.

01:28:55.000 And I would meet my family.

01:28:58.000 And I would, this is so like imagination.

01:29:01.000 And then I was like, but I was kind of like destroyed mentally because I was thinking, how could I live?

01:29:10.000 Because I was in prison with good relationship with God.

01:29:14.000 And I was like pure in my soul.

01:29:17.000 And then now I'm going back to, to life and you know, in life, you have to fight with people, you know, and then to do, you have to do the wrongs because like occupational hazard of living your life.

01:29:31.000 And, and then it hit me.

01:29:34.000 After that, I'm after they start to put me in new clothes and diapers that I would have a very long ride.

01:29:42.000 And it's going to the U.S.

01:29:44.000 And if I figured, I would die forgotten in a very violent prison, American prison.

01:29:52.000 What do you think the purpose of the diapers was?

01:29:55.000 The purpose of the diapers because very long flights.

01:30:00.000 And you cannot, they, security, they will not take you to any place.

01:30:07.000 You have to pee in your diaper.

01:30:09.000 I see.

01:30:10.000 I see.

01:30:11.000 Okay.

01:30:12.000 So this is very important because at least to my mind, because this moment changed my life forever.

01:30:19.000 My life before this CIA team that took me from Jordan and after the CIA took me from Jordan are two different episodes that have very little to do with each other.

01:30:34.000 And I tell you why.

01:30:36.000 So when I came to the, to the conclusion that I will die.

01:30:43.000 This is it.

01:30:44.000 This is my life.

01:30:45.000 Then I started to reflect on my past.

01:30:50.000 And then I start to regret.

01:30:53.000 And there is only one thing I regretted in my life.

01:30:57.000 One single thing.

01:30:59.000 I regretted not to be nice enough to people.

01:31:05.000 I regretted when I told my mom, I didn't like this food.

01:31:09.000 This food is not as I expected.

01:31:12.000 I regretted when I get sometime, when I got sometime angry and I expressed my anger in a very, in a less than nice way.

01:31:22.000 I did not regret not having money.

01:31:25.000 I did not regret not having this beautiful woman.

01:31:28.000 I always dreamed about.

01:31:30.000 I did not regret not being in a position of power in my life.

01:31:35.000 All the things that demand so much effort and work had no value to me.

01:31:43.000 And the things that are so easy to do in life are the ones that matter to me.

01:31:49.000 Being nice.

01:31:52.000 And I took it upon myself.

01:31:54.000 If Allah, God, allows me to live again, I promise to be a nice person to everyone I meet, no matter what.

01:32:06.000 You know?

01:32:07.000 And that's, that's what the change in my life.

01:32:09.000 And why do you, why do you think that transformation occurred then?

01:32:14.000 What, what, what's your understanding of, of why that occurred?

01:32:20.000 This is like the first time that I really thought that I will never see life again, that I will die in an American prison.

01:32:34.000 And that's, that's, then I had to, to, to face my past because that's, you know, it's just facing death.

01:32:44.000 Right.

01:32:45.000 It's strange the way that facing death would make you reevaluate your life like that.

01:32:49.000 No, because in some sense, you'd think it's a bit late, isn't it?

01:32:52.000 I mean, if you think you're going to die, but then that, all those thoughts come to mind that you could have been a better person.

01:32:57.000 And.

01:32:58.000 Yes.

01:32:59.000 It's, it's.

01:33:01.000 I know, I know, but.

01:33:03.000 It's like your soul is being weighed, you know, in, in, in light of your impending death and you're evaluating your whole life.

01:33:10.000 Yes, absolutely.

01:33:11.000 And I mean, I mean, this is like, you know, in a very weird way, I think I am lucky because.

01:33:20.000 I had the unique, you know, experience, maybe not unique, but very few people are this experience.

01:33:28.000 You had it that they face death and they said, what should I change in my life?

01:33:34.000 What should I change in my life?

01:33:36.000 And I knew what I need to change.

01:33:38.000 You know, I, I, I, I didn't, I know I don't need a lot of money.

01:33:44.000 Of course.

01:33:45.000 I love to have money.

01:33:46.000 Of course.

01:33:47.000 But I wouldn't like break my back or break my head to make money.

01:33:51.000 Absolutely not.

01:33:53.000 But I make so much effort, painful effort to be a nice person.

01:33:59.000 And it's not easy to be a nice person.

01:34:01.000 And what do you mean by, by being a nice person?

01:34:03.000 What does that entail as far as you're concerned?

01:34:05.000 Absolutely.

01:34:07.000 So when I'm upset with you or with my family, I have to control what I say.

01:34:18.000 I have to control what I do because I always want to leave a good taste, no matter what.

01:34:27.000 Also, when some, someone asked me for help, I have to provide them help without hurting myself.

01:34:35.000 The only way I deny help, if this help, very help is going to hurt me.

01:34:41.000 And that's not a problem to me to deny, to not accept to help.

01:34:46.000 And that's it.

01:34:47.000 Just being nice to people, making a difference, smiling, you know, to people, you know, making them feel good.

01:34:54.000 This is very important to me.

01:34:56.000 You said that when you were in Germany, that you had fits, bouts of depression that were long lasting.

01:35:01.000 What about now?

01:35:02.000 It's very, I'm very, uh, depressed.

01:35:14.000 Like I have this, this, uh, PTSD scene, uh, like, uh, episodes.

01:35:23.000 Right.

01:35:24.000 That will send me to the hospital for many days.

01:35:27.000 And I almost died.

01:35:29.000 One of the reason for, uh, this very bad episode was taking clonopine, what they call at least

01:35:36.000 in the US clonopine.

01:35:37.000 And, uh, this was started in prison because I was really, I was very, very much a vegetable

01:35:47.000 when it comes.

01:35:48.000 And then they prescribed me clonopine and then they cut it cold turkey.

01:35:53.000 Yes.

01:35:54.000 I have some experience with that.

01:35:56.000 Yes.

01:35:57.000 It's terrible.

01:35:58.000 It's terrible.

01:35:59.000 Oh my God.

01:36:00.000 You cannot explain to someone.

01:36:01.000 No, you can't.

01:36:02.000 It was, it was absolutely unbearable.

01:36:04.000 Oh my God.

01:36:05.000 Oh my God.

01:36:06.000 When I think about it.

01:36:07.000 How long did that last?

01:36:08.000 I don't know because I, I, I could, I didn't have feeling for time, but the pain I keep hearing

01:36:16.000 pain, I keep hitting my head against the wall and I was crying like a child.

01:36:23.000 I was crying like a child.

01:36:25.000 And this was definitely a mal practice, you know, in, in, in prison, you know, because,

01:36:34.000 because I read later on that it could kill you, you know.

01:36:38.000 To help.

01:36:39.000 It makes you wish you were dead.

01:36:40.000 That's for sure.

01:36:41.000 Oh my God.

01:36:42.000 It's, it's, it's horrific.

01:36:44.000 You know, like, like depression, depression.

01:36:49.000 You cannot describe depression to someone who, who didn't go through it because they

01:36:53.000 always, I always told people, are you just a crying baby?

01:36:56.000 Yeah.

01:36:57.000 What hurt?

01:36:58.000 So do you have like injury, physical body injury?

01:37:00.000 No.

01:37:01.000 So why are you like acting up very much?

01:37:05.000 You know, why are you tripping?

01:37:06.000 You know, but this is when I have this episode, I cannot eat.

01:37:14.000 I cannot drink.

01:37:15.000 I cannot sleep.

01:37:17.000 I'm so scared.

01:37:18.000 I have always to have someone beside me, you know, watching over me, you know, and I'm

01:37:26.000 I'm much better now.

01:37:27.000 I'm much better now, but I acknowledge that I'm very vulnerable.

01:37:33.000 I'm very weak.

01:37:35.000 There are heavy stuff that I need to deal with, you know, with professional help and so on

01:37:44.000 and so forth.

01:37:45.000 So I'm not going to put a brave face and try to sell you something that is not that.

01:37:52.000 Yeah.

01:37:53.000 All right.

01:37:54.000 So let's go back to the plane.

01:37:56.000 So you're on the plane to the United States.

01:37:59.000 And you think you're done.

01:38:03.000 Yes.

01:38:04.000 I thought it was to the United States.

01:38:07.000 And then I almost died because I couldn't pee in the, in the diaper.

01:38:17.000 I kept squeezing, but my head refused to pee, you know, and after what I thought five hours,

01:38:29.000 the plane started to lose altitude.

01:38:32.000 I was telling, no, this is not the US.

01:38:35.000 US is not five hours.

01:38:38.000 And then it landed.

01:38:42.000 And then they took me out because I felt the wind.

01:38:47.000 And then they put me in a chopper because very loud.

01:38:51.000 I could hear through the.

01:38:53.000 And then they put me in a truck and then I start hearing language I never heard before.

01:38:59.000 It's not English.

01:39:02.000 It's not German.

01:39:03.000 It's not Arabic.

01:39:04.000 Turns out it's some tribal Afghani language that I never heard.

01:39:10.000 And so I landed turns out in background air base.

01:39:17.000 And then they took me to this prison and I spent that's, they started torture in that prison.

01:39:28.000 And so, but it's not like very heavy.

01:39:32.000 They just like keep me like on my knees for very long hours.

01:39:38.000 You know, I couldn't see.

01:39:40.000 And then very much.

01:39:43.000 And then they put like strobe light or over my head for hours.

01:39:49.000 And they first night they came to me, took me, you know, peeing first.

01:39:59.000 So when they put me, they strip me naked and they put me in, in some clothes.

01:40:05.000 And I said, they set me and I peed, peed, peed, peed.

01:40:10.000 Like there is no tomorrow.

01:40:12.000 Then I felt so good.

01:40:14.000 I didn't care what they did to me.

01:40:17.000 Because now I peed because, because now I felt I'm a free person.

01:40:22.000 I'm surviving, you know.

01:40:24.000 And so they took me, they asked me what languages they brought Arabic translator.

01:40:31.000 They asked me what language I spoke.

01:40:33.000 Then I said German, among others.

01:40:36.000 They said, German, you're a liar.

01:40:39.000 Because who speaks German in this world?

01:40:43.000 No one.

01:40:44.000 And then they brought a special agent, CIA agent, who spoke German.

01:40:50.000 Right then.

01:40:52.000 And then he spoke to me in German.

01:40:54.000 German.

01:40:55.000 And he looked at them and said, this guy speaks German better than I.

01:40:59.000 And then he looked at me.

01:41:00.000 He said.

01:41:01.000 Wahrheit macht frei.

01:41:04.000 Truth.

01:41:05.000 Work.

01:41:06.000 Truth.

01:41:07.000 Yes.

01:41:08.000 Truth will set you free.

01:41:09.000 Truth will set you free.

01:41:11.000 �

01:41:13.000 because.

01:41:14.000 Because I what came in my mind is this sign.

01:41:17.000 Arbeit macht frei.

01:41:19.000 Yes, that's what came to my mind, too.

01:41:21.000 Yes.

01:41:23.000 Yes.

01:41:24.000 And and it came to me that those people.

01:41:28.000 Are by, did not set them free.

01:41:31.000 Work did not set them free.

01:41:33.000 No, I know.

01:41:34.000 know, I was in big, big trouble. And then he interrogated me. He was not bad. You know, he was

01:41:43.620 like, he was like, explained to me a lot of American culture. And so, and he told me very

01:41:50.580 much that I was screwed. Because in America, it's, he told me, accusation is enough. In this,

01:42:01.100 in this, in this situation, yes, that's enough. That's enough. You will not be free for a very

01:42:10.340 long time. And you may be, he said, you may be guilty or not. I don't know. I don't have the

01:42:15.260 information, but I can assure you that you would be treated as a guilty person. And he was very

01:42:21.520 frank with me. And he, well, the assumption would have to be on the part of the, on the part of the

01:42:28.080 people that had now arrested you and that were bringing you back to the United States.

01:42:31.240 They're all going to assume that you're guilty, obviously. Correct. Absolutely. Absolutely. And

01:42:37.520 this is the greatness of democracy, of the rule of law, that the state violence is kept in check.

01:42:44.280 Is the state violence, violence anywhere in the world? It doesn't matter your culture. It doesn't

01:42:49.780 matter whether you're a Christian, you're Jewish, you're Muslim, you're agnostic, you're Buddhist.

01:42:58.260 Human beings always commit atrocities against other human beings. And the state has so much

01:43:06.280 tools of oppression that the state cannot be, must not be just left without checks. I mean,

01:43:15.600 it's okay to say Jordan is a bad person. That's okay to say, especially by the state, but the state

01:43:22.480 cannot harm you or put you in prison if they don't have evidence that is, that's going to be checked

01:43:31.520 by a third independent party that is, that does not subscribe to the bureaucracy of the state. And,

01:43:41.360 you know, this is like, this is like everywhere. And this obsession, you know, you know, 9-11 was very

01:43:52.160 horrific act, you know, and let's say that full stop. So, the United States, in the United States,

01:44:00.640 there was a very big debate, you know, whether democracy and the rule of law can protect the United

01:44:10.160 States of America. And a lot of people in the CIA, in FBI, and what's not, believe that the rule of law

01:44:20.720 is not enough. They have to go outside the rule of law in order to protect the United States. And they

01:44:26.240 have this obsession with dictatorial regimes from the Middle East. I know this because they told me that, you know,

01:44:33.920 they don't need the gloves, they go down and dirty. And so, and I was like, oh my God, I grew up in a military dictatorship and people are not safe in a military dictatorship.

01:44:44.480 Well, democracy might not be, make people safe, but there isn't an alternative that makes them more safe.

01:44:52.640 So, absolutely. Absolutely. And democracy is millions times safer than dictatorships, you know, because in a dictatorship, there is no way around corruption.

01:45:06.480 There is no way around corruption, you know, in a dictatorship, you know, and the corruption would hit also the security apparatus, you know.

01:45:14.880 And I know this because I could see the contrast where I grew up during military rule. And Germany, Germany, you can walk anytime you want. No one is going to hurt you. No one is, and in Germany, you know,

01:45:29.440 you know, no one can arrest you without due process, you know. And this whole like obsession that, you know, we need to treat people outside the rule of law, that's how we protect.

01:45:41.600 I say this is wrong. And this is just an opinion. This is not the scientific, I don't have a scientific, but I would say it's wrong.

01:45:49.800 And the empirical evidence is in what we see. Western democracies are much safer than any other country in the Middle East.

01:46:05.040 So back to the helicopter.

01:46:07.220 I was taken out of the aircraft and put in a chopper. And I have to mention that the CIA did not torture me during the trip from Jordan.

01:46:25.080 No, this guy was very gentle. He didn't hurt me. And that wouldn't be the role in the future.

01:46:32.380 Because in Guantanamo Bay and in Bagram, every move, the guards who moved me, they roughed me up.

01:46:43.620 And they used, you know, the move from one place to the next to inflict pain on me, like pinching me or dragging me, you know, or run away.

01:46:55.720 And they know I cannot run because I have shackles on my feet.

01:47:00.440 But this all happened, I think, on the instructions of my interrogators.

01:47:08.240 So anyway, so they took me and I peed for the first time on my knees.

01:47:17.060 And that felt really, really good. I didn't care about anything else.

01:47:22.100 And I was stripped naked again.

01:47:25.580 And then they took a hair, you know, from my hair, you know, and they interrogated me.

01:47:36.580 The first interrogation didn't seem, they didn't seem to be very well informed about who I was.

01:47:43.460 They just had the script.

01:47:44.640 And it was like, where is Osama Bin Laden?

01:47:48.520 Where is Mullah Omar?

01:47:50.340 Mullah Omar is the former president of the Taliban.

01:47:54.420 And they didn't know that I was in a prison.

01:47:59.240 I wasn't out there.

01:48:00.480 I wasn't picked up from a battlefield.

01:48:02.700 So I had no clue.

01:48:03.820 And where did that interrogation take place?

01:48:08.040 Right when I was taken out of the chopper.

01:48:12.660 And so this, so interrogation was done.

01:48:17.140 They took me, put me in an isolation cell.

01:48:20.600 And this woman came to me.

01:48:22.540 She said, if you want to go to the bathroom, I remember this.

01:48:27.180 You can ask this person.

01:48:29.000 Because there was no bathroom in my cell.

01:48:31.720 And, you know, like, I didn't speak English.

01:48:37.720 And bathroom sounded like baditzimmer.

01:48:41.280 Like, just literal translation.

01:48:44.620 But in German it means something else.

01:48:46.600 It means a place where you take a bath.

01:48:50.060 And I was thinking, oh my God, those people are so nice.

01:48:54.060 I really want to take a bath.

01:48:55.840 I said, I want to go to the bathroom.

01:48:58.100 And they took me to a barrel full of human feces.

01:49:06.780 And just, you know, put in a place.

01:49:10.440 And then they said, this is the bathroom.

01:49:13.060 Because they didn't have, like, they didn't have, like, bathrooms.

01:49:18.720 Like, they have just, like, barrels.

01:49:20.700 And then detainees would do it in the barrels.

01:49:24.920 And it's very tricky because it's hanging.

01:49:28.180 It's like, it's, like, very high, high up.

01:49:32.660 And then that was my first English, you know, real English word.

01:49:38.160 So that bathroom is not a place to take a bath.

01:49:41.660 And I was taken to Guantanamo Bay.

01:49:47.380 And it was very torturous.

01:49:53.200 I mean, they, you know, again, so we were put in the same shackle.

01:50:00.340 We were about 34, I think, detainees.

01:50:03.780 And there was a shackle that, you know, connected all of us.

01:50:09.020 And they start processing us.

01:50:13.440 Blindfall, all kinds of shackles.

01:50:16.780 And put us in the plane.

01:50:19.140 And I couldn't breathe because I have claustrophobia.

01:50:23.160 I almost died, you know.

01:50:25.520 And this guy came to me.

01:50:29.740 And he told me, forget about it.

01:50:32.800 I never forget this.

01:50:35.440 And it was like, okay, either I survive or I die.

01:50:39.260 So I'm not going to get any relief.

01:50:43.080 Because I wanted him to remove the mask on my face.

01:50:46.760 Because I couldn't breathe because of the mask.

01:50:50.020 You know, just like this, this, this, this Corona mask.

01:50:59.180 You know, but I couldn't breathe with it.

01:51:01.760 You know, I think mostly because of my claustrophobia.

01:51:06.920 And we arrived in Guantanamo Bay after, I think, more than 30 hours.

01:51:13.220 And it was like, oh, my God, I was so happy that I arrived somewhere.

01:51:18.540 Because so much pain, you know, everywhere.

01:51:23.300 And they put me, like, they pushed me, you know, in what seemed like open space.

01:51:31.420 And then I felt the sun.

01:51:34.160 And then, you know, I was like, you know, this is, you know, this is much better.

01:51:41.060 In my mind, now I'm under the full authority of the United States.

01:51:45.840 No more control.

01:51:46.440 You were 30 hours in transport before then?

01:51:49.760 You thought, you thought it was about that?

01:51:52.420 I think it was more.

01:51:55.040 Yes.

01:51:55.440 What, what kind of transport was it?

01:51:57.560 Were you, you said you were on a plane?

01:51:59.940 Yes.

01:52:00.660 And the plane changed places.

01:52:03.040 I think.

01:52:04.800 Changed place and stopped somewhere, you know.

01:52:08.400 I see.

01:52:09.000 Stopped somewhere once or twice.

01:52:11.560 Right.

01:52:12.000 So, so it wasn't a direct flight.

01:52:14.520 No, no, no, it wasn't.

01:52:17.400 And so I arrived.

01:52:19.340 So we started off in the morning of 4th of August, 2002.

01:52:27.240 And we arrived the next day, 4th of August, 5th of August.

01:52:33.840 And they processed us.

01:52:37.160 And I remember this gentleman came in, coming to me and he, he spoke in Russian to me.

01:52:45.380 And I didn't speak any Russian.

01:52:47.800 And then, you know, we were all naked because they stripped us in the room.

01:52:55.340 And those like, you cannot get those images out of your head.

01:53:01.080 You know, you are naked watching naked people around you, you know.

01:53:07.140 And this guy looked at me.

01:53:08.820 I was smiling all the time.

01:53:11.180 You know, and this guy looked at me and said, where did they capture you?

01:53:15.340 And I remember this question.

01:53:17.740 And I didn't understand it.

01:53:19.400 He, I kept saying, what?

01:53:21.440 He kept saying, where did they capture you?

01:53:23.520 And then he was very frustrated with me.

01:53:25.380 And then he said, never mind.

01:53:27.580 Something like, never mind.

01:53:29.840 And, and then, ah, then I understood.

01:53:33.960 I said, home.

01:53:35.100 Something like that.

01:53:37.340 And because I was captured home.

01:53:41.700 And the last thing I saw when the police came to me was the image of my mother as we drove away with the police.

01:53:55.380 I saw her in the rearview mirror because I was driving my car.

01:53:59.660 And a policeman sat beside me.

01:54:03.020 And she was getting smaller, smaller, smaller until I turned right.

01:54:09.740 And then she disappeared.

01:54:11.280 At that point, I did not think that I would never see my mother again.

01:54:16.320 But I never saw my mother again.

01:54:18.720 I was never allowed to attend her funeral.

01:54:21.880 I was never allowed to say goodbye to my mother.

01:54:26.100 And so we arrived.

01:54:28.580 And my first interrogation, they put me in a room.

01:54:33.860 And, you know, I was like being kind of demanding because I thought, oh, this is a cell.

01:54:40.900 And I said, but this cell is small.

01:54:44.760 But it was really big, big room.

01:54:46.660 And, you know, human beings are very, you know, they always like compare.

01:54:54.020 And I thought this is like very small room.

01:54:57.860 Then I tried to stand up and discover my surrounding.

01:55:01.980 There was no one.

01:55:02.820 And then I was dragged really forcefully down.

01:55:07.280 And then I saw there is a bolt holding me to the ground.

01:55:10.060 I was not aware of.

01:55:11.440 And then I realized I'm not free in this room.

01:55:16.120 I cannot move around.

01:55:17.980 There are these two gentlemen.

01:55:21.160 Three gentlemen came in the room.

01:55:23.460 One is Bill.

01:55:24.420 He said his name is Bill.

01:55:26.880 And he's from the FBI.

01:55:28.540 He was about my age.

01:55:30.800 You know, 30.

01:55:33.080 About early 31.

01:55:35.020 And another person by the name of Paul.

01:55:41.560 His name is Paul.

01:55:42.440 I know his name.

01:55:44.000 And then another person.

01:55:44.820 I'm amazed you can remember these details.

01:55:49.340 And then a translator from Morocco because I didn't speak English.

01:55:54.640 And then they came to my room.

01:55:57.900 And then they started asking me questions.

01:56:01.900 And Paul had an empty water bottle.

01:56:07.600 And he kept spitting in it.

01:56:09.640 And I was saying, what does he spit?

01:56:12.700 And then it was like very disgusting and black.

01:56:17.120 And then later on, I learned this is normal in the U.S.

01:56:20.720 You know, I was like looking at the U.S.

01:56:23.260 as very sophisticated people.

01:56:26.580 They have like, you know.

01:56:28.700 So he was chewing tobacco.

01:56:29.840 Yes, he was chewing tobacco.

01:56:32.140 And he was spitting in front of everybody.

01:56:34.620 And everybody could see the disgusting like spits.

01:56:38.760 Very thick.

01:56:39.800 Very black.

01:56:41.420 And I know I'm not sophisticated.

01:56:43.680 I know my people are not sophisticated.

01:56:46.040 I know that because that's where I grew up.

01:56:48.920 But my image of Americans because of the movies.

01:56:53.220 Very sophisticated.

01:56:54.680 You know, very like clean.

01:56:57.300 Very organized.

01:56:58.020 That was my first glimpse.

01:57:01.160 I know they are just like other human beings.

01:57:04.540 And I was just waiting on the other FBI guy to pick his nose.

01:57:11.800 Because that's the next level.

01:57:13.900 You know, spitting in a bottle.

01:57:16.320 You need to pick your nose to complete the picture.

01:57:19.300 And they didn't do anything.

01:57:22.440 They asked me whether I was mistreated in Jordan.

01:57:28.320 I said, I don't want to answer that question.

01:57:31.900 And that was for a couple of reasons.

01:57:36.660 I didn't want to tell them that it's possible to torture me.

01:57:42.820 I didn't want them to know it's normal.

01:57:44.640 And the second thing, I didn't want them to trick me into giving them details.

01:57:55.760 You know, I just want to keep it very brief with them.

01:58:01.060 So no information about that torture.

01:58:02.840 They said it's not necessary.

01:58:04.700 But they told me in the United States we don't torture people.

01:58:07.980 And I was very happy.

01:58:09.820 Because that's what I thought, too.

01:58:11.640 Because I watched Married with Children, a comedy.

01:58:15.900 It was very funny.

01:58:19.300 And I watched Law and Order back home.

01:58:24.740 So this is America, funny, and the rule of law.

01:58:32.180 And so they kept this interrogation like almost on a daily basis.

01:58:37.520 But I wasn't confessing to any amazing stuff.

01:58:43.100 They were not discovering anything.

01:58:44.860 And that was very frustrating for them.

01:58:46.700 So the commander of the base and other people demanded that I need to be put in a program

01:59:00.500 to encourage me to cooperate with them.

01:59:04.100 I was blissfully unaware.

01:59:06.000 But in Washington, they were devising a program of torture, so-called enhanced interrogation technique

01:59:15.340 that was devised just for me.

01:59:18.540 You know, and I don't know everything is in there.

01:59:23.840 But I think it's a document that is accessible.

01:59:27.500 You know, but what I received was sexual assault.

01:59:32.640 So, I mean, full physical contact.

01:59:34.920 It's not like, it's not like dirty talking or that.

01:59:39.980 That happened, too.

01:59:41.060 But I mean, direct, you know, like sexual assault, rape.

01:59:47.580 And that was really bad.

01:59:49.860 And then the first 70 days when they took me, I remember the first day.

01:59:56.720 So, the FBI came to me on 22nd of May, 2002.

02:00:06.280 And the FBI guy, no, 2003, sorry.

02:00:10.760 My bad.

02:00:12.500 And the FBI guy, his name was, his name was, was Rob Seidler, Robert Seidler.

02:00:22.080 And he gave me a book called America and its People.

02:00:28.560 It's about the history of America, you know.

02:00:32.120 You know, it's, you know.

02:00:35.000 And I love history.

02:00:37.200 And it helps me also.

02:00:38.940 Had you learned to speak English by that point?

02:00:41.440 Yes, a little bit, with very heavy accent.

02:00:45.660 But I understood almost everything I read because of my French vocabulary.

02:00:52.220 And I like to read a lot, especially in a prison when you have, whenever they give me something, I keep reading it.

02:01:01.040 So, I read this American people many times.

02:01:04.580 Like, it's very academic.

02:01:05.920 And so, and he told me, this is the last day his boss told him that I was not giving him the information.

02:01:18.280 And he told me that my life was going to change.

02:01:22.260 And that he, he wants me to cooperate with the next thing.

02:01:27.960 And so, later on, I think one month.

02:01:32.260 So, they tried to, another team tried to intimidate me, everything.

02:01:36.400 Like military and other undefined agencies.

02:01:41.420 But I told them, no, I'm not talking to you anyway.

02:01:45.200 So, you can do whatever you want.

02:01:47.500 Kind of.

02:01:48.280 Was very defiant, kind of.

02:01:51.380 Very stupid for me.

02:01:53.620 And.

02:01:54.560 Well, what, what would have been your alternative?

02:01:59.660 What, what else could have you done, do you think?

02:02:02.700 Was there, was there anything else other than.

02:02:05.920 I mean, if, if you had nothing to confess, it's not that straightforward to cooperate, obviously.

02:02:14.200 Yes, it's impossible.

02:02:15.980 Damn you do it, damn you don't.

02:02:18.320 Because, look, I thought about this a lot.

02:02:21.500 Because, if you confess without torture, that's very heavy burden.

02:02:31.100 I will, I had to wait on torture.

02:02:33.680 Because, that's the only way you, you could.

02:02:39.120 I mean, this is hindsight.

02:02:40.300 You could explain, I didn't do this.

02:02:42.460 This is torture, you know.

02:02:43.820 And, so, I was very scared, but I kept saying, you need to tell me what I did, and then I can cooperate with you.

02:02:57.700 As long as you don't tell me, I'm not going to cooperate.

02:03:00.340 And, I was very, like, measured, and logical, and defiant, and even smart, kind of, smart with them.

02:03:13.700 Like, I can tell you, for instance, they tell me, ask me, like, FBI asked me a question, even before the program.

02:03:22.400 Okay, they ask me the same question, next day.

02:03:25.700 And, I say, you asked me yesterday, and I answer.

02:03:28.340 And, then, they would say, but we want to make sure you are not lying.

02:03:31.760 And, I would say, I remember all the lies I said since I left home.

02:03:37.760 So, I was comfortable enough to let out my frustration with them.

02:03:44.480 You know, this is going to change dramatically.

02:03:48.360 So, they came to me, the guards.

02:03:53.860 And, then, they came in front of my cell on mic block.

02:03:59.320 And, they said, reservation.

02:04:01.860 That's the code word that you are going to be taken away.

02:04:07.360 And, I said, where?

02:04:11.220 Because, usually, they tell you interrogation or medical or something.

02:04:15.080 So, why are they taking me?

02:04:16.340 They told me, it's none of your business.

02:04:18.840 And, I knew I was in trouble.

02:04:21.940 And, then, so, they had these rubber gloves.

02:04:27.880 And, then, when they start putting me in shackle, I read on the rubber glove, India block.

02:04:34.620 And, then, I told the detainees, my co-detainees, I'm going to be taken to India.

02:04:39.960 India block is torture block.

02:04:41.460 So, we know that because there was only, the block was designed for 30 detainees.

02:04:50.080 But, there was only one detainee.

02:04:51.960 They take only one or two detainees for torture.

02:04:55.160 So, they, and, so, when they took me there, I found one detainee.

02:05:00.900 And, soon, that detainee was taken away.

02:05:03.280 So, I was by myself.

02:05:05.040 So, they, the first 70, the first 70 days in that block, no sleep.

02:05:13.320 So, and, you would ask, how, how, how couldn't you sleep?

02:05:17.060 Sleep is, you just sleep, you know.

02:05:19.900 So, the, the way they did it, interrogation 24.

02:05:24.120 So, they have, like, three shifts.

02:05:26.340 So, one interrogator, then the next interrogator, then the next interrogator.

02:05:30.300 Just like, you know, like a conveyor belt in a car, uh, industry plant.

02:05:40.500 And, and how did they keep you awake?

02:05:43.560 I mean, after a couple of days, you must have been, like, falling asleep at every second.

02:05:50.080 Correct, correct.

02:05:51.260 So, they put me back in my cell, and then they, they let me lie down, and then the guard kept banging every, like, one hour or so, they come and bang at my door.

02:06:08.060 And, it's so cold, you cannot sleep, because freezing cold in the cell.

02:06:14.320 And, I didn't have proper clothes.

02:06:15.940 So, it was, to be honest, the recollection is really hazy, because I was not in the state of mind to remember.

02:06:25.780 I may have very false, a lot of false memories, but I can only tell you with the best of my guess, what went on.

02:06:34.280 And, later on, they made very efficient methods.

02:06:39.720 That, most efficient, I know this is bad, because other people who would like to torture people, they would know this.

02:06:47.760 But, I can tell you, very efficient.

02:06:50.480 Every hour, they wake me up, and they make me drink water.

02:06:53.800 Every hour.

02:06:55.520 Wake you up, make you drink water.

02:06:57.600 You can never sleep when someone does this to you.

02:07:00.740 Because, you will always go to the bathroom, continuously.

02:07:05.000 You will, like, be half asleep, go to the bathroom, half asleep, go to the bathroom, half asleep, go over, and over, and over.

02:07:14.340 The only method they didn't do to me, and the guard told me about it, because I confessed, I falsely confessed, was shower.

02:07:23.480 He told me, and the other detainer, they put him under the shower, and they turn on the shower, 24-7.

02:07:29.340 But, I wasn't looking forward to that.

02:07:35.820 So, I didn't know, because I kept negotiating my torture.

02:07:44.760 I kept telling them, I'm dying.

02:07:47.800 You know, and, actually, it was true, because Gul Rahman died.

02:07:52.820 Another detainer, this is on record.

02:07:54.840 Gul Rahman, you can look it up.

02:07:56.940 He died in the cold room.

02:07:58.700 He couldn't take it, because hypothermia set in, and they found him dead in his cell.

02:08:07.340 And so, the room was artificially cooled?

02:08:10.260 Yes, yes.

02:08:12.680 But, I have to say this.

02:08:14.900 They didn't, like, bring, to my mind, they didn't bring, like, special equipment to cool it down.

02:08:21.880 They just, like, completely cranked up the AC to its fullest, you know, because the AC was not designed to kill people.

02:08:34.580 But, I do believe that where you grow up, I'm sure a Canadian will not die under an AC, but a Mauritania like me, growing up in the desert,

02:08:43.900 it's very harmful to them, because my body is not used to this type of temperature.

02:08:52.040 And I kept telling them, you are killing me, I mean.

02:08:54.660 And I remember this doctor, because when I say, like, these things, I'm saying with love, because I know American people are good people, just like any, like Canadian, like Mauritania, by and large, are good people.

02:09:08.860 And I remember this doctor, I think he's a commander, or in the Navy, he was a doctor.

02:09:17.500 And part of the program, torture program, I'm not allowed to take medication, okay, for pain relief, because that would defeat the purpose of the torture.

02:09:29.360 And, but I was really very sick, because of my sciatic nerve, and they took me to this doctor, commander.

02:09:39.600 He has a leaf, I think they called it a commander.

02:09:43.360 And he looked at them, he said, remove the shackles.

02:09:47.340 And then they removed, he said, do not give me detainees with shackles on my table, something like that, he was very upset.

02:09:53.180 And then I saw my window, I said, oh, this is a good guy, I need to complain.

02:09:59.680 You know, I was like drowning, and I was just seeing anything and trying, so I said, I'm really doing, I'm having so much pain, I really needed to talk to them to stop this.

02:10:09.820 He told me I cannot.

02:10:12.080 He told me that he cannot interfere with interrogation.

02:10:17.980 You know, but he would write a report that I'm really very sick.

02:10:24.560 And he did write the report.

02:10:26.360 And the reason why, I know he did, because years later on, my interrogators found the report in their discovery.

02:10:33.240 Discovery means when your lawyer asks for secret documents, you know, related to your case.

02:10:42.040 And, but I was just like doing nothing.

02:10:46.880 They just, I let them do their things.

02:10:49.240 I'm not talking to them, nothing.

02:10:52.160 Just like a stone every day.

02:10:54.760 And sometime, I say a little one, they like, be nice to me, but say something that has nothing to do with anything.

02:11:03.420 And one day, it was, I think, August 23rd, when I remember correctly, of 2003.

02:11:13.580 August 23rd.

02:11:16.880 And then, a man, a police lieutenant by the name of Richard Zouli, later on, I learned he's from Chicago.

02:11:25.940 And he's very infamous, because he was involved in torturing some people back in Chicago, in the U.S., mainland.

02:11:33.620 He came to me, and I sat in front of him.

02:11:38.960 He was very stern, very serious.

02:11:40.960 And he handed me a letter from DOD, and he asked me to read it.

02:11:46.020 In that letter, it says that, due to the lack, something like, due to the lack of my cooperation, the U.S. government has had no choice but to arrest my mother and put her in only man prison.

02:12:04.040 And that they know that I was involved in millennial plot and in the atrocious acts of 9-11, et cetera, et cetera.

02:12:15.340 I didn't know how to answer, but I, because I was very scared.

02:12:20.520 I told him, this is unfair.

02:12:22.380 I didn't know what to say.

02:12:23.620 And he told me, we are not looking for justice.

02:12:30.020 We are trying to stop people from driving planes into the buildings, something like that.

02:12:39.000 I'm sure his English is much better than mine.

02:12:42.020 And I was like, OK, go ahead and look for those people, you know.

02:12:46.960 So when he left, I knew I had nothing more to lose, and I was ready to confess to everything and anything.

02:12:57.140 But I didn't know how.

02:13:01.620 I didn't know how to start it, you know.

02:13:05.060 But he helped me.

02:13:06.360 So I don't know, a couple of days later on, or one day, I don't remember, I was in the interrogation room.

02:13:16.140 With Staff Sergeant Mary.

02:13:19.680 You know, Mary, you know, she has her humane side, even though she actively participated in torture, notably in sexual assault.

02:13:36.540 You know, she was kind of, you know, at least ambivalent about what she was doing.

02:13:43.780 And these, like, three masked men came to the room.

02:13:52.400 And then one of them was holding a German shepherd.

02:13:56.460 And the other star just putting me down, beating me everywhere, like viciously beating me.

02:14:03.700 And then she stood up and she was crying.

02:14:06.840 She was like, why you do this?

02:14:08.600 Why you do this?

02:14:09.380 Like, it was like total chaos.

02:14:11.220 Then they took me out of the room, never stopped beating me until I stopped breathing because I couldn't breathe anymore because my ribs broke.

02:14:21.820 And it was like the pressure on my lungs and the pain of breathing through your broken ribs is just so, so painful.

02:14:36.700 And I was like, eh, eh, all the time.

02:14:41.060 And they were, like, making fun of this noise.

02:14:43.920 I couldn't see anything, you know.

02:14:46.340 Then they took me.

02:14:47.800 They start pouring this water, you know, forcing this salt water, my nose, my mouth.

02:14:55.320 And then they gave me to another team.

02:14:57.620 I don't know, three hours, and then another team.

02:14:59.660 And Richard Zouli stood.

02:15:05.120 I could hear him in the pause before they gave me to the next team.

02:15:10.280 He was like, kind of, we appreciate the cooperation of all countries to take down the terrorists, something like that, you know.

02:15:17.860 And this guy with Egyptian accent, his English was very poor.

02:15:25.920 And another guy from Syria, he only spoke Arabic.

02:15:30.120 I would say Syrian accent to be precise because there was no way for me to know he is, no, no, Jordanian accent.

02:15:38.740 So, and, so they took me.

02:15:42.780 And those people utilized a different technique.

02:15:46.440 So what they did, they strapped me on a chair.

02:15:49.840 Very, you know, very, like, strong chair.

02:15:53.080 And then they put something over my body.

02:15:55.820 Like, overall, I believe.

02:15:57.780 And then they start beating me, beating me.

02:16:00.960 Until I couldn't take any more.

02:16:02.900 They fill everything with ice.

02:16:05.920 Everything.

02:16:06.440 Then when the ice start to melt, they come back and beat me.

02:16:12.580 And they were saying that I will confess.

02:16:16.280 And so, and they are going to take me to Egypt and to Jordan.

02:16:21.360 In my mind, I was thinking, but I've been to Jordan and no miracles happened.

02:16:26.740 So why they take me again to Jordan.

02:16:30.380 And one thing in my mind, since Richard Zouli meeting, I want to confess.

02:16:37.080 I want to say everything, but I didn't know how to do it.

02:16:41.120 Honestly, that was only my problem.

02:16:44.320 They, so they took me around 5.30 p.m.

02:16:49.440 And about 1.30 in the morning, next day, because I saw the watch of the medic as he started to treat me.

02:17:03.860 So he came, they put me in a cell.

02:17:06.400 And the medic, you know, was masked.

02:17:12.440 And they say, when you're, I can do this and that, I'm going to break your teeth.

02:17:17.380 So he was part of the torture team.

02:17:20.240 You know, so much for do no harm.

02:17:22.460 And so he treated me, actually.

02:17:27.180 So he put, like, some band, band-aid around my, around my ribs, a lot of it.

02:17:38.100 And he gave me a lot of medication.

02:17:41.020 I don't know what it was.

02:17:44.060 And then this was August 24th or 25th.

02:17:49.040 I don't remember.

02:17:49.860 So how long had you been there by then?

02:17:58.320 No, this is a new prison.

02:18:00.320 So this is a new prison.

02:18:02.060 The night I came, this is a new prison.

02:18:05.560 So I stayed there almost until one year before my release or two years before my release.

02:18:12.380 So I never, so, so.

02:18:16.960 What I remember vividly are two things.

02:18:19.860 Between, so this is August.

02:18:24.080 And the second thing I remember, October 10th.

02:18:29.740 October 10th.

02:18:30.940 Because I saw a watch.

02:18:33.900 You know, again, the interrogator was sitting and then looked briefly at his watch.

02:18:37.340 And then I saw the date.

02:18:38.300 But, but just before that, you know, I was, I cannot describe to you how much pain I was in because I cannot, there are no words.

02:18:55.900 I'm alone.

02:18:57.680 I don't know where.

02:18:59.380 I don't know days or nights.

02:19:02.940 I, I, they start this diet manipulation.

02:19:09.540 They make me, they withhold foods for I don't know how many days until I almost die.

02:19:15.840 And they give me a lot of like, I'm ready, I'm ready to eat very bad food, at least to me, but I cannot eat it because when I'm depressed, I cannot eat.

02:19:28.880 And they give to me and they give me one minute, but they don't respect the minute.

02:19:33.220 I think they give 20 seconds and they take everything back.

02:19:36.080 And, but I'm happy because I don't want to see them.

02:19:39.700 I don't want, I just want like to pass and die without pain, you know, something like that.

02:19:49.940 And so, so I, I start in myself to sing like Quran when they are like to sing to, to, to, to just to feel good, like prayer.

02:20:05.520 And so, and they came to me with force.

02:20:08.800 They said, if I pray again, they will beat me up.

02:20:13.120 And then they force feed me when Ramadan came.

02:20:16.800 They come during the day and force feed me.

02:20:19.460 I didn't know it was, I know somehow it's Ramadan, but, and actually I know some, somewhere during the day, I know somewhere during the day.

02:20:33.920 Why?

02:20:35.000 When I go to the bathroom, I look inside the bathroom and I could see the light of the day through the plumbing.

02:20:43.620 So, and that's the time when they force feed me very little, just to make sure I'm not respecting Ramadan.

02:20:52.700 So that's only, I'm just trying to put you in the picture that to understand how, how destroyed my spirit was.

02:21:01.620 Then I did this prayer and I asked Allah for guidance, i.e. God, because I didn't know what to do.

02:21:11.500 And in my mind, nothing I would tell them would stop this.

02:21:15.640 I called one of the guards, I don't know their names, their masks too.

02:21:21.480 And I said, I need to see Captain Collins.

02:21:26.660 Richard Zouli called himself Captain Collins.

02:21:29.960 That's what he called himself.

02:21:31.140 And he came to me and I told him, I want to confess.

02:21:41.500 He said, okay, I will send you the people.

02:21:45.360 And he sent me First Sergeant Shelley.

02:21:50.680 And First Sergeant Shelley started asking me.

02:21:54.560 And then I was just like, ooh, no stop.

02:21:59.400 Ask me, do you know, like, Jordan Peterson?

02:22:04.120 Yes, he's a terrorist.

02:22:05.360 I know him.

02:22:06.200 I saw him.

02:22:06.920 He was preparing, you know.

02:22:08.720 Everybody I know is a bad guy.

02:22:12.260 And so, and then, you know, because interrogation is a technique.

02:22:19.740 They don't ask you the hard question in the beginning.

02:22:22.600 They always start softly, where did you study?

02:22:26.280 What school did you go to?

02:22:28.060 You know, to prep you up.

02:22:29.900 And then they said, everything you said is good.

02:22:32.880 We appreciate your cooperation, everything.

02:22:37.940 But you need to tell us something that would put you in prison.

02:22:43.640 Because everything you said, America, he told me, is a very liberal country.

02:22:49.060 And they need hard evidence.

02:22:51.360 And then he said, you were in Canada, you may have wanted to attack the CN Tower.

02:23:00.840 The only problem, I didn't know what CN Tower was, nor did I know where.

02:23:08.880 And then he said, like, in Toronto.

02:23:11.100 So, and then I said, yes.

02:23:13.300 And it made sense to everything.

02:23:16.260 So, I said, okay.

02:23:19.720 And he confronted me with a phone conversation I had in Canada.

02:23:24.160 I think it was on 22nd, street 22nd.

02:23:30.160 You know, I was living with my friend, Mohsin, because I didn't have an apartment.

02:23:35.440 This was in Montreal?

02:23:37.180 Correct.

02:23:38.960 You know, I love Montreal, by the way.

02:23:41.320 It's beautiful.

02:23:42.680 The streets.

02:23:43.480 I never saw in my life a street that is 4,500 house.

02:23:49.700 That's, you know, you know, Europe, like the longest street in Germany is 150 or 200.

02:23:56.740 That's it.

02:23:58.160 But I remember Jean Talon, 4,532.

02:24:03.780 What kind of street is that?

02:24:06.020 Like, one say, oh, I live in Jean Talon.

02:24:08.900 And my friend lives in Jean Talon.

02:24:10.320 Oh, you guys close.

02:24:11.820 No, we are not close.

02:24:14.160 So, it was 22nd.

02:24:17.740 And we were leaving.

02:24:20.040 And then, you know, we like tea in Mauritania, at least, this culture.

02:24:24.080 We appreciate tea.

02:24:25.580 And it was, I think, 9 p.m.

02:24:28.200 And it was really cold.

02:24:29.520 This is December, late December.

02:24:32.620 And it was really cold.

02:24:33.940 And I really like tea.

02:24:35.500 And this guy, our neighbor, he wants to come over and drink tea.

02:24:38.920 And I said, could you please, you know, swing by the depaner?

02:24:45.480 You know, this is depaner.

02:24:47.180 It's...

02:24:47.740 Corner store.

02:24:49.320 Yes.

02:24:50.000 Yeah.

02:24:50.660 Could you please swing by and get us some sugar?

02:24:54.120 Tea?

02:24:54.580 Yeah, sugar, I think.

02:24:55.620 I didn't have sugar.

02:24:57.480 And then they kept asking me.

02:24:59.340 They intercepted this conversation.

02:25:01.720 What do you mean when you say tea and sugar?

02:25:03.500 And I would say, I meant tea and sugar.

02:25:05.780 Wrong answer.

02:25:07.440 So in this confession, I told them that tea and sugar are explosive.

02:25:12.880 So we just give them this nickname.

02:25:16.440 That's where I built the bomb.

02:25:20.860 And they said, okay, why did you meet this guy?

02:25:24.260 I said, this guy helped me.

02:25:25.600 So everybody had a role.

02:25:27.760 So now everything made sense to them because all the guys around them were bad people.

02:25:34.060 And now they had a job.

02:25:35.880 So they gave money.

02:25:37.700 We brought these from Chechen smugglers.

02:25:42.500 And I put everything in the confession.

02:25:46.260 And they asked me to sign the confession.

02:25:48.960 And I did sign the confession.

02:25:52.000 You know?

02:25:53.120 And...

02:25:54.320 So what was happening behind the scene was I was being designated for death penalty.

02:26:05.180 So...

02:26:06.180 And the guy who took the case was Colonel Couch, U.S. Marines.

02:26:15.040 And he was like a very decent person, you know.

02:26:18.940 I mean, he said, he told them, this doesn't make sense to me.

02:26:23.440 He said he denied everything.

02:26:24.960 And from one day to the next, he said, no more denial?

02:26:29.120 What's going on?

02:26:30.940 Then they wouldn't tell him anything.

02:26:32.860 And then he made an investigation on his own.

02:26:35.200 And he found out I was heavily tortured.

02:26:38.760 And then he resigned.

02:26:40.920 He resigned.

02:26:42.760 And later on, they give the case to Colonel Morris Davis.

02:26:51.360 They call him Morris Davis.

02:26:52.820 Air Force Colonel.

02:26:53.640 I know him.

02:26:54.940 We are friends now.

02:26:57.560 And...

02:26:57.780 And...

02:26:59.780 He...

02:27:01.780 So they said, okay, we need to put this guy on lie detector.

02:27:09.620 So because the team who was interrogating him, they said they have the gold nugget, a confession, from a very bad guy.

02:27:18.780 And the analyst said, BS.

02:27:22.880 He didn't do this.

02:27:24.740 This is BS.

02:27:25.660 Whatever you did to him, we don't know.

02:27:26.920 But this is what he said is BS.

02:27:28.380 So they came to me, and they put me on this lie detector.

02:27:36.360 I said, guys, I'm an engineer.

02:27:38.480 I cannot go through this because I will tell the truth.

02:27:41.800 And then they said, it doesn't matter.

02:27:45.180 You have to.

02:27:46.320 And then I was so scared because now with the confession, I had the status of admitted criminal.

02:27:55.600 You know, and I had the right to eat, I had the right to pray, I had the right to, you know, sleep for the first time.

02:28:04.620 I didn't care what they did to me after that, you know.

02:28:07.240 And then now I was so scared to go back to torture when I deny everything.

02:28:14.180 But they told me this was coming from very high level people in the government that I need.

02:28:19.560 Then I remember one of the question, did you ever plot or conspire to plot against the U.S.?

02:28:25.240 And I said, and Canada.

02:28:27.980 And the guy told me, I don't give a shit about Canada.

02:28:34.060 I was like, good for you.

02:28:36.640 I was in my head because I couldn't say that, you know.

02:28:41.260 You know, and, you know, this is like very like American.

02:28:46.640 I'm sure you understand because you're North American.

02:28:49.500 You know, this is, you know, very American because.

02:28:53.920 And I was so happy because I was so upset with Canada.

02:28:57.440 So upset.

02:28:58.440 Like if you tell me, are you more upset than the U.S. or Canada?

02:29:02.140 I would say Canada.

02:29:03.260 Because I was a landed immigrant in Canada.

02:29:07.540 And I was, they scared me so much.

02:29:11.800 Instead of protecting me, they threw me under the bus.

02:29:16.620 You know, you know, they completely swallowed everything that came from the CIA, FBI or whatnot.

02:29:23.280 And without doing their own investigation and say, you know what?

02:29:27.960 This is a guy in our territory.

02:29:29.940 And this is a guy.

02:29:31.380 We owe him the protection.

02:29:34.780 And we need to know if he's a bad guy.

02:29:36.700 We don't protect bad guys.

02:29:38.020 But we need to understand he's a guy.

02:29:40.100 We need to find out.

02:29:41.340 And so when he said that, it was like the only thing we agree on.

02:29:47.040 Thank you.

02:29:48.120 So.

02:29:49.580 And then I passed the test from like a death penalty case to someone who didn't do anything.

02:29:58.860 You know, I was.

02:29:59.460 Because, sorry, let me get that clear.

02:30:01.700 So you did the lie detector test.

02:30:03.640 And what did it reveal?

02:30:04.860 It revealed that your confession was false.

02:30:07.700 Everything I said that was incriminating was false.

02:30:11.440 I see.

02:30:11.780 Have you ever conspired?

02:30:13.120 Yeah.

02:30:13.400 Have you ever conspired?

02:30:14.460 Did you ever talk to anyone about harming the US?

02:30:17.360 Never.

02:30:18.400 Nothing.

02:30:18.620 Okay.

02:30:18.980 So during the lie detector test, you told the truth about everything.

02:30:23.500 Yes.

02:30:24.140 I see.

02:30:24.700 I see.

02:30:25.180 And so that nullified your confession.

02:30:28.880 Yes.

02:30:29.440 I denied everything and truthfully.

02:30:31.740 So they took the test and they fought over it.

02:30:36.700 And they said they had, one of them insisted to come next day or next week and to do again

02:30:42.980 the test.

02:30:43.920 They did the test again.

02:30:45.860 And again, I passed the test.

02:30:48.280 So all of those tests are now in my hands, on my computer, because my lawyer gave them to

02:30:53.900 me and they were presented at the court, at my court.

02:30:59.380 So, and so I was there.

02:31:01.880 So the torture effectively stopped, stopped the end of 2000, 2000, early 2004, there was

02:31:15.220 no more torture.

02:31:15.920 So that was, so you were, you were in the torture prison for two years, if I got that

02:31:21.440 timeline right?

02:31:25.620 No, no, no.

02:31:27.320 Okay.

02:31:27.700 The torture, the intensive torture was between May, no, was between June of 2003 and early

02:31:39.000 2004.

02:31:39.720 So a little bit over half a year.

02:31:42.400 Okay.

02:31:42.740 And tell me again, when you were, when you were brought to Guantanamo Bay, tell me when,

02:31:46.960 when you arrived there?

02:31:48.940 I arrived August 5th of 2003.

02:31:54.560 Okay.

02:31:54.820 Two, two, two, not three.

02:31:56.680 Yes.

02:31:56.800 And so, and, and so, but what happened that they just didn't know what to do with me.

02:32:07.660 So, and I was just there, you know, and they wouldn't release me and they wouldn't take

02:32:14.700 me to trial.

02:32:15.560 They wouldn't release me because they thought I was, I witnessed so much, I saw so much and

02:32:21.940 they didn't want me to reveal it.

02:32:23.420 At least that's my understanding of that of my lawyers.

02:32:27.620 And second, they couldn't take me to any trial because there was no crime to be tried.

02:32:33.640 That was the conclusion of Moe Davis.

02:32:36.500 And he wrote this in a memorandum.

02:32:38.660 He said, there is no evidence this guy did anything against us.

02:32:42.640 And on record, he said that.

02:32:46.840 And so, you have to forward.

02:32:51.020 So then I started making friendship with guards and with interrogators.

02:32:55.960 You know, I just start to be, you know, inmate.

02:32:59.040 You know, I start like, you know, the guards start to be my friends and they introduce me

02:33:06.560 to American pop culture, music, you know, when they bring books, I borrow from them the

02:33:13.840 books.

02:33:14.180 So, did they, did they realize at that point, did they treat you as if you were innocent?

02:33:18.980 Apart, obviously, they didn't release you, but your treatment radically improved.

02:33:23.720 So, did they believe you, your guards and so on?

02:33:30.020 That's very hard to, you know, because we didn't speak about my innocence or my guilt.

02:33:39.360 You know, they, because it was like a taboo topic almost.

02:33:45.600 I didn't feel comfortable to talk about it because it's so cliche for the 10th person to

02:33:59.320 say I'm innocent.

02:34:00.300 So, I didn't, I don't want to be a cliche.

02:34:02.660 Absolutely not.

02:34:04.480 I just want whatever, you know, whatever.

02:34:07.200 I'm just.

02:34:08.340 Well, you also must have been quite relieved, I would suspect, since your days had improved

02:34:12.780 substantially.

02:34:13.480 Oh, you have no clue how relieved I was, but I was a mess, you know, because, you know,

02:34:22.260 because I, I start hearing voices and I start really to get very sick.

02:34:28.980 And then they put me on two medications, Paxil and, and the other, Clonopy.

02:34:37.340 And then, and, so, like most of this time I was isolation and then I begged them to take

02:34:55.260 me out of the isolation, but they refused.

02:34:57.740 Then after, I think two or three years, I didn't want to see people anymore.

02:35:01.900 And to this day, you know, Jordan, I don't, I don't feel comfortable around people.

02:35:09.260 I always feel comfortable when I'm alone, you know, because.

02:35:13.800 How much time did you spend alone over those, those years?

02:35:18.620 Okay.

02:35:20.560 Okay.

02:35:21.260 Two thousand, three, thousand, sixteen.

02:35:24.640 About 10 years.

02:35:25.820 Mostly alone.

02:35:28.940 How often would you see people?

02:35:30.800 Just guard.

02:35:31.820 Just, sorry, just?

02:35:33.840 Just the guards and the staff.

02:35:36.220 I see only the guards and the staff.

02:35:39.100 And what sort of cell were you in?

02:35:41.480 What was it like?

02:35:43.140 It was like, I think, six by eight.

02:35:46.420 No, I don't think it's six because that's, I think it's four, four by six.

02:35:54.660 I don't want to pin myself, but what's maybe four by six feet, four, four by eight, eight

02:36:04.320 feet, four by eight.

02:36:05.580 Was there a bed in it, in the cell?

02:36:08.580 Yes, it was like, it was like a metal, you know, a metal sheet, you know, that's made

02:36:18.220 into a bed.

02:36:20.980 You can look it up.

02:36:22.200 You can look Guantanamo Bay prison and then you will see the cell.

02:36:27.980 So you're alone for almost 10 years in that cell.

02:36:32.680 Correct.

02:36:32.940 And so how did it come to be that you got legal representation and were able to start

02:36:38.640 to free yourself?

02:36:42.920 Some UK citizen went to court because they were with us and they had good lawyers.

02:36:50.080 Then they made it all the way to the Supreme Court.

02:36:54.360 And then they, and then they, they want the right to be, to challenge their detention.

02:37:02.940 And I was not aware of this because I had no right even to contact anyone, but the family

02:37:11.820 of, that's the advantage of a free country.

02:37:15.480 So UK is a free country.

02:37:17.120 So their families, they fought very much for everyone.

02:37:21.520 And so I had, all of a sudden I benefited from these UK citizens because the right was

02:37:28.600 given to everyone.

02:37:29.340 And in 2005, mid 2005, I met my lawyers for the first time.

02:37:35.400 I met Nancy Hollander and Sylvia Royce.

02:37:39.080 They came to me.

02:37:41.180 They, and then I saw them as a window and I started to write my story, my memoir, my memoir.

02:37:49.040 So what did you think when you, when the lawyer showed up?

02:37:57.120 I was so happy, you know, and I remember the first time they came to me, I sat on a chair

02:38:03.880 like this with a desk in front of me.

02:38:07.000 You know, the, it was like one of the standard interrogation room.

02:38:10.540 And then I stood up and then I started to say hi, but I couldn't, I wouldn't move because

02:38:17.840 I was bolted, but they couldn't see the, the, the, the chain.

02:38:22.340 And they were like sitting there because they were briefed that detainees are dangerous people.

02:38:29.000 So they were scared.

02:38:32.900 And then I was very happy, honestly.

02:38:38.020 And how long did it take your lawyers to understand your story?

02:38:42.540 And I presume, believe you?

02:38:45.300 Yes.

02:38:45.780 Very long, very long.

02:38:47.140 Because the accused is innocent until proven guilty.

02:38:51.900 Only your mother believed this.

02:38:54.480 So people at large, and I'm sure you understand this, people perceive the accused as.

02:39:05.240 Well, it would be very hard for someone to believe that you had spent that long in Guantanamo

02:39:10.400 Bay and weren't guilty of something.

02:39:13.400 I mean, because they would have to question the validity of the entire system.

02:39:17.360 And that's not an easy thing to do.

02:39:19.780 And it's probably even a harder thing to do if you are from a country where rule of law

02:39:24.180 is the norm.

02:39:27.100 Correct.

02:39:28.620 Correct.

02:39:29.340 Yes.

02:39:29.840 Yes.

02:39:30.900 Absolutely.

02:39:31.720 You know, and I mean, I can't say more than what you said.

02:39:37.000 And I was like, okay, how can I explain to them?

02:39:41.360 And then they were very shocked when the government, when they first compelled the government to

02:39:48.660 show them, the government showed them the confession.

02:39:51.000 He confessed.

02:39:52.520 And then they were very upset with him.

02:39:55.940 He said, why are you lying to us?

02:39:57.920 And so, and I was like, oh my, the government only showed them I confessed.

02:40:02.800 They didn't show them I was torsible.

02:40:05.000 Did they show them the lie detector results?

02:40:07.620 Much later on, because the government hold all the cards and then they show only the

02:40:15.560 thing they want to show, you know.

02:40:17.980 And, you know, like democracy and the rule of law is promised that the three branches of

02:40:25.420 the government cooperate with each other.

02:40:27.200 So, and the executive power has so much power over judiciary and the parliament, because

02:40:37.760 only the executive power has weapons, has violence, could use violence, because a judge

02:40:45.360 can only tell you, you're right, you can go home.

02:40:47.920 But the judge doesn't have the key to open the cell and let you go home.

02:40:52.220 So, the executive power has to cooperate and respect the judiciary.

02:40:59.460 By and large, this function in democracies.

02:41:02.640 But in the case of Guantanamo Bay, the executive power completely showed a great deal of contempt

02:41:11.980 toward court system.

02:41:15.640 So, how did your lawyers free you?

02:41:19.440 How did that happen?

02:41:20.420 Um, look, this is not easy because they had to prove that I was innocent.

02:41:33.960 That was like mission impossible.

02:41:37.920 Because they have to show the government I'm innocent.

02:41:40.980 It's not the burden, it's not of the government.

02:41:42.940 Because this is, and I say this very frankly and very straight, the problem with the crime

02:41:49.580 they call terrorism is that it's very political, very politicized, and especially in my part

02:41:57.080 of the world, I can speak to that.

02:41:59.660 And it's used to oppress peaceful, mostly peaceful political dissent, and to crush them, and to people who don't like just to put them in a prison, because they could be your political rivals.

02:42:13.800 And fortunately, this playbook of the dictatorial regime in the Middle East and authoritarian regimes was copied in Guantanamo Bay, and they just say you're a terrorist.

02:42:25.220 Because when someone says you're a terrorist, everything could be done against you, and there is no definition.

02:42:32.300 And I have a big problem with that.

02:42:33.960 I don't think that philosophically in a democracy, terrorism should be a crime.

02:42:39.060 Terrorism in a democracy cannot be a crime, because one, it's not clearly defined.

02:42:44.980 Terrorists in Canada are not terrorists in Egypt.

02:42:47.880 Terrorists in Egypt are not terrorists in Saudi Arabia.

02:42:50.440 Terrorists in Saudi Arabia are not terrorists in Palestine and Israel, et cetera, et cetera.

02:42:55.220 But a murderer is a murderer, because same thing in Canada, in the US, in Mauritania, if you kill someone, that's a crime, and it can be proven very easily.

02:43:09.500 But you could be a terrorist in Egypt, and as soon as you get to Canada, you're a good citizen.

02:43:15.880 And second, it's used for political purposes and political oppression, and it's used to, or I need to bail out.

02:43:31.700 So, and it's used to, to, to punish people en masse.

02:43:41.000 I can give you an example.

02:43:42.220 Just a few months ago, the Houthi in Yemen were a terrorist group.

02:43:52.600 And then now they are not a terrorist group anymore.

02:43:54.920 So, what kind of, what kind of justice is that, you know?

02:44:00.880 So, how did your lawyers prove that, to the, to the satisfaction of the people who could release you, that you should be released?

02:44:08.480 They took me to a, so, so, we fought to go to the court system.

02:44:16.560 So, I was intimidated.

02:44:18.320 I was threatened.

02:44:19.860 But I said, I'm going to court.

02:44:21.520 In 2009, we succeeded to fight, to, to be heard by the late George Robertson.

02:44:30.400 I mean, Robertson, Judge Robertson.

02:44:36.900 And he, he ordered my release in 2010.

02:44:43.780 So, he heard us in late 2009, ordered my release in 2010.

02:44:47.460 And he said, there is no evidence to hurt this guy.

02:44:50.060 And the government refused.

02:44:53.200 And then they, they appealed.

02:44:55.580 The appeal hung, you know.

02:44:58.280 And I, so, my book was published after a very big fight.

02:45:05.160 And then, after the publication of my book, the government said they want to review my case.

02:45:10.240 They reviewed my case.

02:45:11.280 They said, I'm no threat to the U.S.

02:45:13.660 In 2016.

02:45:15.340 July of 2016.

02:45:16.860 And in October of 2016.

02:45:19.440 They said, I can't go home.

02:45:21.940 End of story.

02:45:23.640 Now, a movie was made out of that book as well.

02:45:27.180 A movie.

02:45:28.560 The Mauritanian.

02:45:30.600 Please go and watch the movie.

02:45:32.720 And make up your own mind.

02:45:35.700 And it's pretty accurate.

02:45:39.320 And there is no hero in the movie.

02:45:42.020 Just like a bunch of people.

02:45:44.960 And it shows like, just, you know, the weakness of human beings.

02:45:52.480 And your attitude towards all of this now?

02:46:00.760 Total forgiveness.

02:46:02.840 Because I believe in reconciliation.

02:46:06.620 I believe that our life is too short to hold grudges and to wage wars.

02:46:13.180 Because we need each other.

02:46:14.860 You know, my country needs the United States.

02:46:18.740 And the United States could need my country.

02:46:22.780 And we need to be brothers and sisters.

02:46:25.440 And we need to cooperate and make our world a better place.

02:46:29.000 And I'm starting by honestly and earnestly say that I hold no grudge against anyone.

02:46:36.140 And I'm ready to cooperate with anyone, regardless of their religion, their background, their ideological, political ideology.

02:46:42.640 And why did you come to that decision?

02:46:46.780 Because of the diapers story I told you.

02:46:49.280 One of the CIA put me in diapers.

02:46:52.180 And I faced death.

02:46:53.900 Okay, okay.

02:46:54.900 I want to be a better person.

02:46:56.860 And you hung on to that through the time that you were in Guantanamo Bay?

02:47:02.040 Absolutely.

02:47:03.160 I couldn't honestly express it because people could say, oh, he's just scared.

02:47:08.080 But now I'm a free man.

02:47:09.440 I could say it and I'm inviting everyone I met in Guantanamo Bay to come to me.

02:47:14.920 Some people came to me and we drank tea.

02:47:17.680 They stayed at my home.

02:47:18.940 One of the guards, Steve Wood, he came to me three times.

02:47:23.980 And I hosted him in my humble home.

02:47:26.180 And why did he come to see you, do you think?

02:47:28.840 We became friends.

02:47:30.480 We became good friends.

02:47:32.140 You know, he's the godfather of my child.

02:47:34.060 I'm the godfather of his daughter.

02:47:35.440 And we just, we just, we just want, we just want to be friends and to show everyone that, you know, peace can be made.

02:47:49.480 We don't need to hold grudges.

02:47:50.780 Is there anything else you want to say?

02:48:00.480 I would like to say I'm so honored to be on your show.

02:48:04.300 And I thank you so much to give me your platform and allow me to share my story with your audience.

02:48:12.060 Well, thank you for walking through it.

02:48:15.740 I'm sure that's far from pleasant to do that.

02:48:20.280 You have no clue.

02:48:22.020 Yes.

02:48:23.380 Thank God for that.

02:48:28.280 Mohamedou, it was very good of you to talk with me.

02:48:31.400 I wish you the best.

02:48:32.160 Thank you so much.

02:48:33.060 And please take care of yourself and get healthy.

02:48:37.540 Most important thing.

02:48:40.400 Much appreciated.

02:48:42.060 Thank you.

02:49:10.120 Please.

02:49:10.560 Thank you.

02:49:11.020 Thank you.

02:49:11.500 Thank you.

02:49:11.540 Thank you.

02:49:11.580 Thank you.

02:49:11.620 Thank you.

195. Enhanced Interrogation Techniques ｜ Mohamedou Ould Slahi

Summary

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