The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast - 198. Enlightenment and the Righteous Mind

00:00:00.960 Hey everyone, real quick before you skip, I want to talk to you about something serious and important.

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00:00:51.060 Welcome to the Jordan B. Peterson podcast, season four, episode 53.

00:00:59.380 This episode was recorded on June 6th, 2021.

00:01:02.980 Dad spoke with Steven Pinker and Jonathan Haidt.

00:01:06.040 I'm Michaela Peterson.

00:01:07.540 I'd also like to tell you guys, Dad did a lecture in the last couple of weeks at Bucknell University.

00:01:14.240 The talk is online at their website.

00:01:17.440 If you just type in Bucknell University, Jordan Peterson, I'm sure you can find it.

00:01:21.400 But that's the first lecture he's done since 2019, I believe.

00:01:30.220 Maybe March 2020.

00:01:33.760 Anyway, it was huge.

00:01:35.160 It was fantastic.

00:01:36.300 I'm really happy about it.

00:01:37.360 So I wanted to share that with you guys.

00:01:39.000 Steven Pinker, in this episode, he's a psychology professor at Harvard, where he got his PhD.

00:01:45.580 He's the author of The Language Instinct and The Blank Slate, and his 12th book, Rationality

00:01:50.820 is Out Now.

00:01:52.420 Dr. Pinker has received many honors for his work and often writes for The Guardian, The

00:01:56.700 New York Times, and other publications.

00:01:58.880 Jonathan Haidt is a social psychologist at NYU Stern.

00:02:02.720 He researches the intuitive foundations of morality and how it varies across cultures.

00:02:07.880 He's the author of The Righteous Mind and co-author of The Coddling of the American Mind.

00:02:13.420 His next book, Three Stories About Capitalism, should be out in 2022.

00:02:18.400 In this episode, they discussed utopias, the role of religion in society, what really drives

00:02:23.660 Western culture, and more.

00:02:25.560 Sorry there was a bit of a delay on this episode.

00:02:27.840 I almost died from a combination of strep throat and a virus called RSV that I didn't know

00:02:33.620 existed last week, and I actually couldn't talk.

00:02:36.880 Children, infectious little things, but I'm back, and unless I literally die, this delay

00:02:44.000 shouldn't happen again.

00:02:45.200 I hope you enjoy this episode.

00:02:46.740 Hello, everyone.

00:03:07.240 I'm very pleased today to have with me speaking Dr. Stephen Pinker and Dr. Jonathan Haidt.

00:03:12.820 Dr. Pinker is an experimental psychologist who conducts research in visual cognition, psycholinguistics,

00:03:18.460 and social relations.

00:03:19.740 He grew up in Montreal and earned his BA from McGill and his PhD from Harvard.

00:03:24.480 Currently, John Stone Professor of Psychology at Harvard.

00:03:27.720 He has also taught at Stanford and MIT.

00:03:30.620 He's won numerous prizes for his research, his teaching, and his books, including The Language

00:03:35.040 Instinct, How the Mind Works, The Blank Slate, The Better Angels of Our Nature, The Sense

00:03:39.980 of Style, and Enlightenment Now.

00:03:42.440 He's an elected member of the National Academy of Sciences, a two-time Pulitzer Prize finalist,

00:03:47.760 a Humanist of the Year, a recipient of nine honorary doctorates, and one of Foreign Policy's

00:03:52.720 world top 100 public intellectuals, and Times' 100 most influential people in the world today.

00:03:58.500 He writes frequently for the New York Times, The Guardian, and other publications.

00:04:03.100 He's publishing his 12th book, September 28th, 21, this year, September 28th.

00:04:08.880 It's called Rationality, What It Is, Why It Seems Scarce, and Why It Matters.

00:04:14.540 Dr. Jonathan Haidt is a social psychologist at NYU's Stern School of Business.

00:04:20.200 His research examines the intuitive foundations of morality and how morality varies across cultures,

00:04:26.720 including the cultures of American progressive, conservatives, and libertarians.

00:04:31.720 Haidt wrote The Happiness Hypothesis, Finding Modern Truth in Ancient Wisdom, The Righteous Mind,

00:04:37.980 Why Good People Are Divided by Politics and Religion, and The Coddling of the American Mind,

00:04:43.440 How Good Intentions and Bad Ideas Are Setting Up a Generation for Failure.

00:04:47.060 He co-authored that with Greg Lukianoff.

00:04:49.180 The last two books each became NY Times bestsellers.

00:04:52.440 At NYU Stern, he's applying his research on moral psychology to business ethics,

00:04:58.120 asking how companies can structure and run themselves in ways that will be resistant to ethical failures.

00:05:03.660 He's also the co-founder of HeteroxAcademy.org, a collaboration among 2,500 professors

00:05:09.320 working to increase viewpoint diversity and freedom of inquiry in universities.

00:05:13.920 He has a forthcoming book, Three Stories About Capitalism, The Moral Psychology of Economic Life,

00:05:20.200 expected to release in 2022.

00:05:23.420 Thanks, gentlemen, very much for agreeing to talk to me and to each other today.

00:05:28.220 Looking forward to a wide-ranging and intense conversation.

00:05:34.220 So, we haven't, Jonathan, we haven't talked for about two years, I guess.

00:05:38.520 That's right.

00:05:38.820 I've always been a great fan of your research, especially research on disgust and other moral sentiments.

00:05:45.080 I'm kind of wondering what you've been up to recently.

00:05:47.620 So, maybe you can start us off.

00:05:49.720 Sure.

00:05:50.620 So, after I moved to Stern in 2011, I'd been at the University of Virginia.

00:05:54.640 I got interested in how moral psychology doesn't explain why,

00:05:58.340 doesn't just explain why our politics is so messed up.

00:06:00.820 It also explains a lot of conflicts about economics and business.

00:06:03.940 And so, I saw, left and right, unable to understand each other's views of business and capitalism.

00:06:11.400 And I thought I'd write a book on it.

00:06:12.580 And I got a book contract in 2014.

00:06:14.860 And I went off to Asia to do research for the book.

00:06:18.060 And I came back.

00:06:18.920 And I was all ready to write when the universities blew up at Halloween 2015.

00:06:23.260 And I had just co-founded Heterodox Academy.

00:06:26.720 And then I got hijacked into a lot of, well, the Coddling the American Mind stuff.

00:06:33.000 And that basically occupied me for three or four years.

00:06:35.840 The Capitalism book was due in 2017.

00:06:38.000 And finally, I have a sabbatical.

00:06:40.100 I've got to write it.

00:06:41.260 If I don't write it now, I don't know when I ever will.

00:06:43.100 But it's basically about how to think about economics in a way that gets you out of the moralism.

00:06:49.700 Maybe a theme that I'll explore today is how moralism messes everything up,

00:06:53.480 at least about trying to figure out what's going on or trying to do research.

00:06:57.120 What do you mean by moralism?

00:06:59.840 Moralism is if you look at things in a framework, not of true versus false,

00:07:03.800 but of right versus wrong, bad versus good.

00:07:07.020 Once you put on that frame, Tyler Cowen has a quote somewhere in a TED Talk.

00:07:11.640 He says, we think in stories, but as soon as you put a good evil story,

00:07:16.100 as soon as you interpret things in terms of a good evil story,

00:07:18.840 your IQ drops by 10 to 15 points.

00:07:21.680 And I think that's right.

00:07:22.540 It seems kind of like a case of overgeneralization in some sense, right?

00:07:26.640 You want to discuss a narrow issue,

00:07:29.040 assuming consensus on everything you're not talking about.

00:07:32.360 And then if you transfer that into, let's say,

00:07:36.640 a mutual elaboration of both your characters on the scale of good and evil,

00:07:42.900 all it does is make things exceedingly complex.

00:07:44.980 That never works in a marital argument, for example.

00:07:47.500 For example, that's right.

00:07:49.060 We had a rule in our relationship, my wife and I,

00:07:51.960 that we would try to argue about the narrowest possible thing

00:07:56.520 in the given argument, right?

00:07:58.420 To stop it from expanding ever outward

00:08:02.600 and potentially turning into a characterological attack.

00:08:07.020 Yeah, that's a good way.

00:08:09.540 That sounds like a good rule,

00:08:11.420 because at a certain point,

00:08:13.620 arguments become all out war,

00:08:15.400 where the goal is not,

00:08:16.480 you lose all touch with truth,

00:08:18.440 and your goal is to win.

00:08:20.220 And strangely, you win in ways that alienate

00:08:22.300 the very person you're trying to persuade,

00:08:23.780 because so much of our argumentative ability

00:08:27.120 is actually intended for an audience.

00:08:29.240 We're really, really good at making our case,

00:08:31.940 even though it often doesn't persuade the other person,

00:08:34.680 but because we evolve for moral grandstanding

00:08:37.000 in very intense social groups.

00:08:40.780 And that's a little foreshadowing

00:08:41.920 of how I hope we'll talk about social media.

00:08:45.380 So you see that as...

00:08:46.920 Go ahead, Dr. Pinker.

00:08:48.340 Well, I'm going to add something to John's point.

00:08:50.780 Having looked at data on violence on historic scales

00:08:55.480 in my previous book, Better Angels of Our Nature,

00:08:57.680 I have a somewhat cheeky paragraph

00:08:59.080 that says the world has far too much morality,

00:09:01.500 by which I meant far too much moralization,

00:09:04.200 alluding to the fact that history's greatest bloodbaths

00:09:07.340 were not caused by greedy dictators feathering their own nest,

00:09:13.280 accumulating palaces and harems.

00:09:15.520 They were moralistic crusades.

00:09:17.420 They were people committing violence

00:09:19.120 because it was not only permitted but obligatory

00:09:21.940 in service of a higher cause.

00:09:23.840 A lot of bloodthirsty dictators were ascetics.

00:09:27.460 And they were not motivated by greed.

00:09:31.580 They were motivated by what in their own eyes was morality,

00:09:35.460 which we can call moralization.

00:09:36.640 It doesn't mean we should all be amoral psychopaths.

00:09:39.740 There is such a thing as morality,

00:09:41.020 but moralization, the psychology of the moral sense,

00:09:43.660 which John has done so much to illuminate,

00:09:47.260 can be a source of immorality judged objectively.

00:09:52.280 Okay, I'm going to Google,

00:09:53.620 cheeky paragraph, Steve Pinker, too much morality.

00:09:56.280 There we go.

00:09:56.660 So, Stephen, in your book, Enlightenment Now and other works,

00:10:05.580 you've been tarred and feathered, so to speak, as an optimist.

00:10:09.180 I mean, you make the case that things are improving,

00:10:11.380 and there's a number of public intellectuals

00:10:14.120 who make the same sort of argument.

00:10:15.640 Bjorn Lawberg, for example, Matt Ridley,

00:10:17.700 Marion Tupi, all of detailed ways that the world

00:10:23.200 has improved dramatically, especially over the last 30 years,

00:10:26.520 but certainly over the last 150.

00:10:28.740 And yet, we seem to be polarizing terribly at the moment.

00:10:32.420 And so, what do you think is driving that,

00:10:35.060 given that arguably things are better than they have been?

00:10:39.140 Yeah, I tend to try to squirm out of the optimist pigeonhole,

00:10:45.140 because I'm not arguing for looking on the bright side

00:10:47.960 and seeing the glass is half full,

00:10:49.880 but rather just basing your understanding of the world on data

00:10:53.180 rather than journalism.

00:10:55.240 The problem with journalism being that it is a highly non-random sample

00:10:58.780 of the worst things that have happened at any given period.

00:11:01.500 It is an availability machine in the sense of Amos Tversky

00:11:05.420 and Daniel Kahneman's availability heuristic,

00:11:08.200 namely our sense of risk and danger and prevalence

00:11:11.200 is driven by anecdotes and images and narratives

00:11:14.580 that are available in memory.

00:11:16.900 Whereas the, since a lot of good things

00:11:19.220 are either things that don't happen,

00:11:21.280 like a country at peace or a city

00:11:25.360 that has not been attacked by terrorists,

00:11:26.760 which almost by definition are not news,

00:11:29.000 or are things that build up incrementally,

00:11:31.240 a few percentage points a year and then compound,

00:11:34.000 like the decline of extreme poverty.

00:11:36.640 We can be unaware, we can be out to lunch

00:11:39.820 about what's happening in the world

00:11:41.380 if we base our view on the news.

00:11:43.020 If instead we base our view on data,

00:11:46.320 then not only do we see that many,

00:11:48.200 although not all things, have gotten better,

00:11:50.560 not linearly, not without setbacks and reversals,

00:11:54.500 but in general, a lot better.

00:11:57.160 And it also, paradoxically,

00:11:59.400 because as I've also cheaply put it,

00:12:02.560 progressives hate progress,

00:12:04.120 but the best possible case for progress,

00:12:06.200 that is for striding for more progress in the future,

00:12:09.940 for being a true progressive,

00:12:11.880 is again, not to have some kind of foolish hope,

00:12:14.720 but to look at the fact that progress

00:12:16.380 has taken place in the past.

00:12:17.580 And that means, why should it stop now?

00:12:20.000 We know that it's possible.

00:12:21.940 So that's the...

00:12:22.860 Do you think that it's a reasonable thing

00:12:25.020 to do from a rational perspective

00:12:26.740 to compare the present to the past,

00:12:29.660 rather than to...

00:12:30.880 I mean, there is a tendency

00:12:32.260 to compare the present to a utopian future.

00:12:34.720 I mean, that's kind of a cognitive heuristic

00:12:37.400 because we're always looking

00:12:38.860 for ways to make things better.

00:12:41.040 And I suppose that's that tendency

00:12:42.520 taken to its extreme.

00:12:43.940 But it does seem to me

00:12:45.860 that some of the decrying

00:12:47.840 of the current situation

00:12:48.920 is a consequence of comparing it

00:12:51.040 to hypothetical utopia

00:12:52.340 instead of actual, you know,

00:12:54.340 other countries or other times.

00:12:57.160 Yeah, utopia is a deeply dangerous concept

00:13:00.200 because people imagine a world

00:13:01.940 without any problems.

00:13:02.980 And since people disagree with each other,

00:13:04.720 that means that in order to have

00:13:06.920 complete harmony and agreement,

00:13:09.640 you've got to get rid of all those nuisances,

00:13:12.120 those people who are not on board

00:13:13.920 with your plans for utopia,

00:13:15.480 which is, of course, why it's been the utopians

00:13:18.280 that have been the most

00:13:19.280 genocidal regimes in history.

00:13:22.280 Yeah.

00:13:22.460 So I have a kind of a religious question

00:13:24.440 to ask you about that.

00:13:25.440 This is something I've been thinking about lately.

00:13:27.720 Now, in Christianity, broadly speaking,

00:13:31.820 you could make the case

00:13:33.760 from a psychological perspective

00:13:35.340 that utopia is permanently forestalled

00:13:38.640 into the future

00:13:39.540 in the name of the afterlife

00:13:42.260 or of heaven or something like that.

00:13:43.900 So it's abstracted up into something

00:13:45.620 that's then put in a distant place.

00:13:48.360 And I'm wondering, to some degree,

00:13:50.020 if that's not a consequence

00:13:51.340 of attempts to remove the danger

00:13:54.640 from assumptions of potential utopias

00:13:57.160 here and now.

00:13:57.940 Now, because I'd like to look

00:13:59.700 at religious thinking

00:14:00.600 from an evolutionary perspective

00:14:02.460 or a biological perspective,

00:14:03.840 and it's very curious to me

00:14:05.020 that the idea of the utopia,

00:14:07.400 let's say, would be forestalled in that way.

00:14:10.280 Any thoughts about that?

00:14:13.300 No, it's a strange question.

00:14:15.640 Well, we have ideas about heaven

00:14:17.460 that seem to be not universal,

00:14:20.920 but there are features of heaven

00:14:22.540 that seem to recur.

00:14:23.980 Maybe we'll get into this later

00:14:24.840 if we talk about psychedelics,

00:14:26.220 but there are certain visions

00:14:27.980 of heaven and hell.

00:14:30.520 And so the idea of heaven,

00:14:33.140 which often seems so perfectly beautiful,

00:14:35.460 the idea of it's perfectly beautiful,

00:14:37.260 but you know, it's got

00:14:37.960 its weird political problems.

00:14:39.200 And these people,

00:14:39.760 like that just doesn't make

00:14:41.220 any cognitive sense.

00:14:42.360 Better to have it all be good

00:14:43.780 and perfect and pure

00:14:44.720 and hell be all perfectly terrible.

00:14:48.420 So I don't know what was motivating

00:14:49.800 the early Christians.

00:14:50.660 I have no insights into that,

00:14:52.800 but something that,

00:14:54.300 a way that I do psychology,

00:14:55.620 and actually, Jordan,

00:14:57.200 I know that you do too,

00:14:58.240 because when we first met,

00:14:59.240 you and I first met

00:14:59.840 when I had my first job interview

00:15:01.580 at Harvard in 1994,

00:15:03.080 and you were the only person

00:15:04.220 on the faculty then

00:15:05.500 that I connected with,

00:15:07.100 but we both bonded

00:15:07.900 over an interest in Jung.

00:15:09.600 And while I don't embrace

00:15:10.680 the sort of the,

00:15:14.920 some of the more fanciful elements

00:15:16.980 of Jung,

00:15:17.920 but the idea of archetypes,

00:15:21.820 the idea that there are

00:15:23.300 images that occur to people

00:15:25.500 around the world

00:15:26.380 because they come out

00:15:28.080 of our evolutionary past,

00:15:29.180 something about our minds

00:15:30.240 readily imagines them

00:15:31.920 because of some,

00:15:32.960 something was adaptive long ago.

00:15:35.480 And so that's what got me

00:15:37.260 into the study of disgust

00:15:38.560 and Puritan pollution

00:15:39.880 was when I started reading

00:15:41.320 ethnographies and seeing that

00:15:42.800 all these cultures

00:15:44.100 that never had any communication,

00:15:45.800 many of them are idle in nations

00:15:47.200 in the Pacific or the,

00:15:48.700 or, you know,

00:15:49.480 they all had some similar ideas

00:15:51.060 about purity and pollution.

00:15:52.740 And so I would guess

00:15:53.320 similarly with heaven and hell.

00:15:56.020 Yeah, well, it's interesting to me

00:15:57.720 that if earthbound utopias

00:15:59.740 present a continual political danger

00:16:02.300 in the way that we've been discussing,

00:16:03.820 that one way out of that

00:16:04.800 might be to permanently forestall it,

00:16:07.120 you know, because,

00:16:07.920 and we also talked archetypally already

00:16:09.760 because you guys mentioned the fact

00:16:11.660 that it's easy for political discussions

00:16:13.340 to degenerate into something

00:16:14.740 like an archetypal struggle

00:16:15.980 between good and evil, right?

00:16:17.300 It's that base level category

00:16:18.980 that seems to emerge

00:16:20.640 and confuse things

00:16:22.120 when they need to be more specified

00:16:23.900 and precise.

00:16:25.280 You're supposing that there is

00:16:27.140 some sort of an evolutionary system

00:16:28.780 that there has been enough competition

00:16:31.280 between cultures

00:16:32.060 that the ones that were utopian

00:16:33.460 didn't win out,

00:16:34.500 or you're assuming that somebody

00:16:36.680 had access to enough data

00:16:38.780 of world historical societies

00:16:40.080 to realize that utopias

00:16:41.940 tend to end in bloodshed.

00:16:43.440 And guess what?

00:16:43.980 Here we are in 2100,

00:16:45.500 and while a few social scientists know it,

00:16:47.320 most people are still,

00:16:48.300 or many people are still utopian.

00:16:49.840 So I think it,

00:16:50.800 I would not look for some adaptive thing

00:16:52.740 like, oh, the Christians were very wise

00:16:54.440 in putting utopia impossibly far

00:16:57.240 in the future

00:16:57.720 because they knew that

00:16:58.980 if they put it in the present,

00:16:59.980 it'll be terrible.

00:17:00.540 No, I don't, I doubt that.

00:17:01.460 No, I wouldn't think they knew.

00:17:03.140 I don't, I don't imagine

00:17:04.740 it's anything that was planned.

00:17:06.520 It just strikes me

00:17:07.900 that the idea is so prevalent,

00:17:09.920 that utopian thinking

00:17:11.040 is so prevalent

00:17:11.860 that there might,

00:17:12.920 it might be necessary

00:17:13.800 to develop a psychological mechanism

00:17:15.960 to make it,

00:17:17.140 to make its existence safe.

00:17:19.580 You know, I was thinking

00:17:20.700 in some sense

00:17:21.460 the same thing about ideas of God

00:17:23.360 because,

00:17:23.860 and I don't know what you guys

00:17:24.700 think about this,

00:17:25.520 but it seems to me

00:17:27.140 that it's possible

00:17:28.600 that if there isn't a place

00:17:30.260 in society

00:17:30.940 for something like

00:17:32.240 an ultimate value,

00:17:33.100 then that degenerates

00:17:34.440 down to the political level

00:17:35.700 and starts to contaminate it.

00:17:37.160 So, if there is such a thing

00:17:39.440 as a religious instinct,

00:17:40.640 let's say,

00:17:41.120 if it doesn't find

00:17:42.140 its proper place

00:17:43.260 that in the,

00:17:44.220 in abstraction,

00:17:45.600 then you elevate

00:17:48.080 other elements

00:17:49.100 of society

00:17:50.400 to the same level

00:17:51.820 and then that becomes

00:17:53.180 dangerous.

00:17:54.980 Well, it depends

00:17:55.560 on what you elevate.

00:17:57.140 If it's,

00:17:57.660 if what you're elevating

00:17:58.680 is human well-being,

00:17:59.860 people should be

00:18:00.600 healthy and happy

00:18:01.840 and long-lived

00:18:02.560 and educated and safe.

00:18:04.480 That doesn't seem like

00:18:05.540 such a bad moral value

00:18:07.040 to elevate

00:18:07.740 and it's certainly better

00:18:08.600 than some arbitrary

00:18:09.960 stipulation

00:18:10.740 from,

00:18:11.220 from some scripture

00:18:12.380 or creed

00:18:12.980 that you can't justify

00:18:14.200 to people who

00:18:14.920 don't believe it

00:18:15.900 antecedently.

00:18:17.520 I mean,

00:18:17.700 the problem with utopia

00:18:18.580 is,

00:18:19.160 I mean,

00:18:19.300 among the problems

00:18:20.080 and,

00:18:21.440 and I'm not sure,

00:18:21.980 by the way,

00:18:22.360 I'm the least

00:18:23.200 qualified person on earth

00:18:24.740 to talk about

00:18:25.340 Christian theology

00:18:26.480 or eschatology,

00:18:27.280 but it seems to me

00:18:27.920 there's also the notion

00:18:28.780 of the second coming,

00:18:30.040 there's end times,

00:18:31.400 there's heaven on earth.

00:18:32.680 There are notions

00:18:34.140 of utopia

00:18:35.300 that are not so,

00:18:37.120 not necessarily,

00:18:37.680 seem to me

00:18:38.160 not necessarily

00:18:38.880 postponed indefinitely.

00:18:40.960 But the problem

00:18:41.500 with utopia,

00:18:42.080 of course,

00:18:42.320 is that it ignores

00:18:44.180 the inherent trade-offs

00:18:46.360 in the human condition,

00:18:47.860 such as that

00:18:48.980 if you give,

00:18:49.980 you can't have

00:18:51.160 complete freedom

00:18:52.820 and complete well-being

00:18:54.100 because people

00:18:55.100 will choose to do things

00:18:56.280 that screw up their lives,

00:18:57.480 so unless you have

00:18:58.300 a totalitarian nanny state

00:18:59.820 and give people freedom,

00:19:01.220 they're going to do things

00:19:01.980 that will lead to

00:19:02.480 some bad outcomes.

00:19:04.300 We're not all identical

00:19:05.420 and therefore anything

00:19:06.700 that carries out

00:19:09.360 the vision of some of us

00:19:10.400 is going to be

00:19:12.240 inimical to others

00:19:13.300 and so that's why

00:19:14.820 a liberal democracy

00:19:15.760 is basically a means

00:19:17.500 for resolving disagreements,

00:19:19.220 not a vision

00:19:20.080 of what life ought to be.

00:19:21.720 There's an inherent trade-off

00:19:22.780 between equality of outcome

00:19:25.600 and equality of opportunity

00:19:28.780 or rights

00:19:30.320 and since we're not all clones,

00:19:32.880 that means that

00:19:33.580 if you just allow people

00:19:35.280 to achieve the most they can,

00:19:38.680 some people will achieve

00:19:39.480 more than others

00:19:40.440 and there is that trade-off

00:19:42.440 if you don't want

00:19:43.100 to have extremes

00:19:43.940 of inequality.

00:19:45.800 Added to the inevitability

00:19:49.160 that whatever your vision

00:19:50.540 of utopia is going to be,

00:19:52.240 not everyone's going

00:19:52.960 to agree with you

00:19:53.560 and in order to carry out

00:19:55.680 a scheme

00:19:56.960 that is perfectly

00:19:57.580 laid out on paper,

00:19:59.160 how do you deal

00:20:00.100 with the people

00:20:00.540 who don't get with the program?

00:20:01.960 If you sincerely believe

00:20:03.420 that the people

00:20:04.960 who disagree with you

00:20:05.880 are the only thing

00:20:06.720 standing between

00:20:07.700 the current world

00:20:09.280 and a world

00:20:09.680 that will be infinitely

00:20:10.480 good forever,

00:20:11.540 then you're justified

00:20:12.840 in doing anything possible

00:20:14.820 to eliminate the LTV

00:20:17.160 and their enemies.

00:20:18.320 Exactly.

00:20:18.960 Well, that's why

00:20:19.440 it seems to be

00:20:20.060 such a hazard, right?

00:20:21.060 Because utopia,

00:20:23.400 if utopia is perfect

00:20:24.800 and it can be attained,

00:20:25.820 then any means

00:20:26.500 are acceptable

00:20:27.560 to bring it about

00:20:28.400 and I can't think

00:20:29.860 of a more profound

00:20:30.960 moral hazard than that.

00:20:32.780 Yeah, we're all kind

00:20:33.440 of channeling Isaiah Berlin here

00:20:34.840 but they're good arguments.

00:20:37.820 So, yeah, I'd like to wait.

00:20:38.980 Go ahead, Steve.

00:20:39.600 If you don't mind, Jordan.

00:20:39.900 I'd like to take

00:20:42.200 what Steve just said

00:20:43.080 which is so sensible.

00:20:44.540 It makes perfect sense.

00:20:45.680 Yes, we need a liberal democracy

00:20:47.000 for all these reasons

00:20:48.300 but yet somehow

00:20:50.260 it doesn't seem

00:20:51.320 to inspire people

00:20:52.160 the way that a God does

00:20:53.960 and yes,

00:20:54.800 we could elevate

00:20:55.500 human well-being.

00:20:56.900 Let's all have a religion

00:20:57.800 around human well-being

00:20:59.140 and we'll do whatever

00:20:59.660 it takes to advance

00:21:00.260 human well-being.

00:21:01.440 Well, I've spoken,

00:21:02.900 I get invited to speak

00:21:03.840 at Christian colleges

00:21:05.180 and Christian associations

00:21:06.820 and podcasts sometimes

00:21:08.020 because even though

00:21:09.360 I'm a, you know,

00:21:10.620 center, center-left

00:21:11.640 atheist Jew,

00:21:13.700 when they read

00:21:14.880 The Righteous Mind

00:21:15.520 they find it useful

00:21:16.380 and they see that

00:21:17.000 I don't have the usual

00:21:18.220 academic contempt for religion.

00:21:19.580 I actually think religion

00:21:21.760 at least in the United States

00:21:23.100 religion on net

00:21:24.080 is a very good thing

00:21:25.420 and so when I speak

00:21:27.920 to Christian audiences

00:21:28.700 I often start off

00:21:29.480 by saying, you know,

00:21:30.300 we actually agree

00:21:31.620 on something

00:21:32.460 extremely important

00:21:33.700 which is that

00:21:34.260 there is a God-shaped hole

00:21:35.600 in everyone's heart

00:21:37.040 and Pascal didn't say

00:21:38.520 exactly that

00:21:39.100 but he said something

00:21:39.760 more or less to that effect

00:21:40.920 and I say, yeah,

00:21:42.720 there is a God-shaped hole

00:21:43.860 in our heart.

00:21:44.380 We just disagree

00:21:44.920 on how it got there

00:21:45.780 and you think it's there

00:21:46.960 because we long for God

00:21:48.520 and God exists

00:21:49.300 and God fills it

00:21:50.120 I think, you know,

00:21:51.360 I'm a naturalist

00:21:52.080 I think we evolved

00:21:52.760 to be religious

00:21:53.400 and I tell that story

00:21:54.260 in The Righteous Mind

00:21:55.020 how we evolved

00:21:55.560 for sacredness

00:21:56.340 and gods

00:21:57.340 and how gods

00:21:58.660 have evolved culturally

00:21:59.560 and so I think

00:22:01.740 central to our conversation here

00:22:03.320 or rather

00:22:03.620 we're having

00:22:04.020 this academic conversation

00:22:05.260 in the context

00:22:06.820 of a country

00:22:07.860 going insane

00:22:08.940 with bad religions

00:22:10.400 and by bad religions

00:22:11.680 what I mean is

00:22:12.580 people have found

00:22:13.720 something that fits the hole

00:22:14.880 and so it's deeply satisfying

00:22:16.860 but it makes them behave

00:22:18.420 in ways that are

00:22:18.980 incredibly destructive

00:22:19.980 to a liberal democracy

00:22:21.220 whereas the older religions

00:22:23.080 at least went through

00:22:23.880 a process of evolution

00:22:24.960 especially those that made it

00:22:26.740 in a free country

00:22:27.280 like America

00:22:27.880 they tend to be

00:22:29.760 kind of nice

00:22:30.440 and so

00:22:31.580 I would bring that perspective

00:22:34.220 Okay, so yeah

00:22:34.860 so I want to comment

00:22:35.660 on that a bit

00:22:36.360 I mean

00:22:36.720 one of the things

00:22:37.840 I've been struck by

00:22:38.740 talking to Lomborg

00:22:40.080 and Ridley

00:22:40.660 and Marion Toope

00:22:42.340 about the idea

00:22:43.920 of human well-being

00:22:44.760 which is obviously

00:22:45.620 something that anyone

00:22:46.460 sensible would support

00:22:47.540 is that it is

00:22:48.940 very very difficult

00:22:49.820 to make it inspiring

00:22:51.220 and I think

00:22:52.880 there are probably

00:22:53.580 two reasons for that

00:22:54.700 is one is

00:22:55.400 this God-shaped hole

00:22:56.640 that John was talking about

00:22:58.140 seems to

00:22:59.700 perhaps indicates

00:23:00.940 that

00:23:01.280 that ideal

00:23:02.920 that you mentioned

00:23:03.800 Stephen

00:23:04.240 needs to be embodied

00:23:05.380 in something like

00:23:06.160 a personality

00:23:06.800 for it to fit properly

00:23:08.240 rather than

00:23:08.840 for it to be

00:23:09.600 an abstract idea

00:23:10.580 that might be

00:23:11.300 more motivating

00:23:11.980 for people

00:23:12.580 who are highly rational

00:23:13.800 and intellectual

00:23:14.560 and so

00:23:16.080 so it isn't obvious

00:23:18.340 to me

00:23:18.780 how an ideal

00:23:19.620 of say

00:23:20.400 incremental progress

00:23:21.360 towards well-being

00:23:22.720 which might be regarded

00:23:24.100 as a prime

00:23:25.560 enlightenment sentiment

00:23:26.620 can be fashioned

00:23:28.480 in some sense

00:23:29.620 so that it

00:23:30.340 fulfills the

00:23:31.100 psychological requirements

00:23:32.400 that Jonathan

00:23:33.560 was describing

00:23:34.480 so I have another

00:23:36.200 if I can allude

00:23:37.240 to another

00:23:37.620 cheeky passage

00:23:38.600 toward the end

00:23:39.160 of enlightenment

00:23:39.600 now I say

00:23:40.180 well do we need

00:23:41.260 to have

00:23:42.120 men in colored shirts

00:23:44.480 saluting posters

00:23:45.500 of John Stuart Mill

00:23:46.700 and secular humanist

00:23:50.100 preachers

00:23:50.700 rolling back their eyes

00:23:51.720 and pounding a copy

00:23:52.760 of Spinoza's ethics

00:23:53.860 on the pulpit

00:23:54.540 here here

00:23:56.100 well maybe we do

00:23:58.280 but on the other hand

00:23:59.580 and I find

00:24:00.180 there's some irony

00:24:01.820 in here

00:24:02.240 me defending

00:24:02.920 the plasticity

00:24:05.420 of a human belief

00:24:06.940 and values

00:24:07.480 given I'm a pretty

00:24:08.460 staunch advocate

00:24:09.140 of the concept

00:24:09.700 of human nature

00:24:10.400 but what fills

00:24:12.160 that God-shaped hole

00:24:13.740 is pretty variable

00:24:15.780 I mean it was certainly

00:24:16.680 there's nothing

00:24:17.180 in human nature

00:24:17.900 that says

00:24:18.500 that it had to be

00:24:19.300 filled with the notion

00:24:20.340 that if you accept

00:24:21.400 that a guy

00:24:22.300 who was nailed

00:24:23.320 to a cross

00:24:23.860 2,000 years ago

00:24:24.800 died for your sins

00:24:25.740 and the foremost

00:24:27.160 of which was

00:24:28.040 when Adam and Eve

00:24:29.340 you know

00:24:30.280 ate from the fruit

00:24:31.620 of the tree of knowledge

00:24:33.540 I mean that's not

00:24:34.480 an intuitive idea

00:24:35.300 that was an idea

00:24:36.260 that we had to have acquired

00:24:37.220 we also know

00:24:38.980 that despite

00:24:40.300 the prevalence

00:24:41.220 of religious belief

00:24:41.960 there's an awful lot

00:24:43.240 of the world's population

00:24:44.360 that does not believe

00:24:46.020 in any deity

00:24:46.620 the population

00:24:47.720 of China for example

00:24:48.840 a large portion

00:24:50.040 of the population

00:24:51.840 of Western Europe

00:24:52.660 in the United States

00:24:54.360 Millennials

00:24:56.040 and Gen Z's

00:24:58.480 have some vague notion

00:25:00.120 of spiritual

00:25:00.960 but not religious

00:25:01.660 but they're falling

00:25:02.900 in droves

00:25:05.220 away from specific

00:25:06.260 people

00:25:06.520 from formal relations

00:25:07.360 but that makes them

00:25:08.180 more vulnerable

00:25:08.860 to these new

00:25:10.060 political religions

00:25:10.820 well indeed

00:25:11.540 no I agree

00:25:14.200 but the thing is

00:25:14.720 that those aren't

00:25:15.340 specifically

00:25:15.940 they're not literally

00:25:17.360 religious in the sense

00:25:18.280 that they appeal

00:25:18.720 to the supernatural

00:25:20.020 or theological

00:25:20.600 they're crummy

00:25:21.500 moral systems

00:25:22.560 and so it does

00:25:23.760 leave open

00:25:24.980 the possibility

00:25:25.620 of having a

00:25:26.320 not so crummy

00:25:27.460 moral system

00:25:28.500 but the essential

00:25:30.900 element I think

00:25:31.720 is that it unites

00:25:32.500 a group

00:25:32.900 against other groups

00:25:33.960 so human well-being

00:25:36.200 wouldn't do it

00:25:37.000 but fighting

00:25:37.580 white supremacy

00:25:38.420 or fighting CRT

00:25:40.080 or the communists

00:25:41.420 or the fascists

00:25:42.240 or whatever

00:25:42.680 so I think

00:25:43.860 you can't just

00:25:44.980 put anything in there

00:25:45.900 I'm a Durkheimian

00:25:47.100 and so I think

00:25:47.740 a good religion

00:25:48.520 anything that's going

00:25:49.420 to fit in the whole

00:25:50.320 and by good

00:25:51.180 I don't mean

00:25:51.660 good for society

00:25:52.440 I just mean

00:25:52.880 something that'll

00:25:53.420 make a good fit

00:25:54.220 is going to have

00:25:55.000 to be one that

00:25:55.620 has a group bonding

00:25:56.520 function for us

00:25:57.440 to come together

00:25:58.200 to fight something else

00:25:59.800 so let me ask you

00:26:00.760 about that

00:26:01.520 so you just

00:26:03.560 made the case

00:26:04.180 I think

00:26:04.560 and correct me

00:26:05.220 if I'm wrong

00:26:05.820 that we seem

00:26:08.000 to agree on the case

00:26:09.020 that because of this

00:26:10.160 absence of a higher value

00:26:12.200 whatever it happens

00:26:12.980 to be

00:26:13.400 that's fallen down

00:26:14.560 into the political domain

00:26:15.780 and then the quasi

00:26:17.300 religious impulses

00:26:18.520 that are infiltrating

00:26:19.940 the political domain

00:26:21.820 tend to pit

00:26:23.200 one side against another

00:26:24.740 so you get a good

00:26:25.880 versus evil

00:26:26.680 narrative emerge

00:26:28.140 but the problem

00:26:29.280 with the good

00:26:29.880 versus evil narrative

00:26:30.860 is that the evil

00:26:32.260 is embodied

00:26:32.920 in some other group

00:26:34.000 and the good

00:26:34.500 is embodied

00:26:35.000 in your group

00:26:35.780 so one of the things

00:26:37.080 I've been thinking

00:26:37.760 through is that

00:26:38.620 you know

00:26:39.160 in sophisticated literature

00:26:40.640 you don't have

00:26:42.240 good guys

00:26:42.820 and bad guys

00:26:43.740 you have good guys

00:26:45.600 and bad guys

00:26:46.300 in the same soul

00:26:47.480 that's the Solzhenitsyn quote

00:26:49.300 yes

00:26:49.600 right exactly

00:26:50.660 exactly

00:26:51.140 you see that

00:26:51.680 in sophisticated literature

00:26:52.640 everyone knows that

00:26:53.680 so here's a thought

00:26:55.540 so if you don't have

00:26:57.660 a abstract

00:26:58.980 religious system

00:27:00.200 that insists

00:27:01.360 that the dividing line

00:27:02.520 between good and evil

00:27:03.480 is to be fought

00:27:04.240 inside your own soul

00:27:05.620 so to speak

00:27:06.340 then it degenerates

00:27:09.220 one step

00:27:10.020 into a battle

00:27:10.860 between good and evil

00:27:11.780 in the outside world

00:27:12.820 with evil being conveniently

00:27:14.460 located somewhere else

00:27:15.900 so I mean

00:27:16.880 one of the things

00:27:17.980 I think that Christianity

00:27:18.900 did bring the world

00:27:20.040 and it had its roots

00:27:21.180 in Jewish thinking

00:27:22.000 as well

00:27:22.440 was that

00:27:22.920 the greatest of evils

00:27:24.560 was to be found within

00:27:25.760 not without

00:27:26.520 and maybe that's one way

00:27:28.240 of protecting society

00:27:29.300 from this schismatic tendency

00:27:30.780 that we see reemerging

00:27:32.040 let's look

00:27:33.220 let me give you an example

00:27:34.460 okay

00:27:34.760 I'll just go through this

00:27:35.980 very quickly

00:27:36.580 so

00:27:37.480 in the

00:27:38.660 in the book of Genesis

00:27:40.340 in the story of Adam and Eve

00:27:41.800 you have evil

00:27:43.140 located as a snake

00:27:44.500 right

00:27:45.720 so it's a predator

00:27:46.500 it's the predator in the garden

00:27:47.760 and predatory snakes

00:27:48.860 were hell on primates

00:27:50.080 so there's plenty of

00:27:51.380 evolutionary reason for that

00:27:52.740 but then you can imagine

00:27:53.900 so there's an insistence

00:27:55.320 in Judeo-Christian thinking

00:27:56.560 that the snake in the garden

00:27:57.800 is Satan

00:27:58.380 which is a very odd idea

00:28:00.140 I tried to think that through

00:28:01.780 I thought

00:28:02.260 okay

00:28:02.700 snake as predator

00:28:03.920 other person as predator

00:28:07.000 group as predator

00:28:08.260 soul

00:28:10.040 inside your soul

00:28:11.300 as predator

00:28:12.000 it's increasing

00:28:13.480 psychologization

00:28:14.360 of the idea of predator

00:28:15.700 because you know

00:28:16.720 when we were

00:28:17.300 animals

00:28:18.340 like other animals

00:28:19.340 we were preyed upon

00:28:20.360 by straightforward predators

00:28:22.100 and then by other people

00:28:23.820 and then by other individuals

00:28:26.000 but then we figured out

00:28:27.120 that that battle

00:28:27.820 was within

00:28:28.480 and if it isn't

00:28:30.040 occurring within

00:28:30.720 then is it

00:28:31.700 necessary that it

00:28:32.820 is transferred to something

00:28:34.160 that's occurring without

00:28:35.180 hmm

00:28:37.220 I really like your point

00:28:39.720 about how

00:28:40.560 believing in original sin

00:28:42.460 or that the battle is within

00:28:43.600 makes you less susceptible

00:28:45.720 to a simplistic

00:28:46.980 where good they're evil

00:28:48.040 narrative

00:28:48.520 I like that a lot

00:28:49.740 I'm a big fan

00:28:50.540 of Amanda Ripley

00:28:51.700 who wrote this amazing essay

00:28:53.580 called

00:28:53.820 Complicating the Narrative

00:28:55.020 and it's about

00:28:56.260 how journalists

00:28:57.460 reporters

00:28:58.080 you know

00:28:58.820 don't report like

00:28:59.500 well this side says this

00:29:00.620 and this side says that

00:29:01.720 don't just report the two sides

00:29:02.820 that simplifies the narrative

00:29:03.940 in a sense

00:29:04.360 rather show

00:29:05.660 splits within each side

00:29:07.300 and show that the story

00:29:08.560 is really complicated

00:29:09.620 and that kind of

00:29:10.780 stops people

00:29:11.520 in their rush

00:29:12.620 to judgment

00:29:13.220 and mob action

00:29:14.320 and makes them think

00:29:15.320 which of course

00:29:15.720 is what great literature

00:29:16.400 does too

00:29:17.060 and that also helps

00:29:18.800 explain what I think

00:29:19.740 is particularly

00:29:21.640 attractive to me

00:29:22.580 in Christianity

00:29:23.660 or at least in some

00:29:24.300 of the Christians

00:29:24.720 that I know

00:29:25.280 is that they really

00:29:26.700 make a virtue of humility

00:29:27.980 in a way that

00:29:29.420 well Jews

00:29:30.460 don't

00:29:30.700 at least American Jews

00:29:31.520 don't seem to

00:29:32.740 but

00:29:33.800 the idea

00:29:35.460 that we are all flawed

00:29:36.500 don't be so sure

00:29:37.700 of yourself

00:29:38.280 judge not lest

00:29:39.080 ye be judged

00:29:40.440 so

00:29:41.720 I sometimes join

00:29:42.860 a group

00:29:43.220 of

00:29:44.100 evangelical

00:29:45.060 preachers

00:29:46.880 actually brought together

00:29:47.860 by Jonathan Rausch

00:29:48.720 another Jewish atheist

00:29:50.120 but you know

00:29:50.960 with a bunch

00:29:51.460 of interesting people

00:29:52.100 like Pete Wehner

00:29:52.780 David Brooks

00:29:53.620 and some actual

00:29:55.140 yeah some actual

00:29:55.700 ministers as well

00:29:56.520 but

00:29:57.880 it

00:29:58.280 I just love

00:29:59.740 the

00:30:00.080 the virtues

00:30:01.220 there

00:30:01.520 of humility

00:30:02.560 grace

00:30:03.060 forgiveness

00:30:03.620 and these

00:30:04.800 are virtues

00:30:05.400 that have

00:30:06.100 just been

00:30:06.500 completely

00:30:06.980 drained away

00:30:07.760 from

00:30:08.280 from modern

00:30:09.120 society

00:30:09.740 I think

00:30:10.860 you see

00:30:11.320 the

00:30:11.680 the struggle

00:30:12.540 for morality

00:30:13.460 within

00:30:13.860 in the Jewish

00:30:14.380 tradition

00:30:14.820 in the prophetic

00:30:15.540 tradition

00:30:16.120 with the insistence

00:30:17.440 that you know

00:30:18.240 people have deviated

00:30:19.400 away from the

00:30:20.020 path of God

00:30:20.720 and have to be

00:30:21.320 called back to it

00:30:22.140 so at least

00:30:22.840 the precursors

00:30:23.680 to that idea

00:30:24.360 are there

00:30:24.720 in broad form

00:30:26.440 and importantly

00:30:26.940 which yeah

00:30:27.580 that makes sense

00:30:28.180 yes

00:30:28.440 yeah

00:30:29.720 the idea

00:30:30.980 that there's

00:30:32.300 a struggle

00:30:33.640 between our

00:30:34.400 our better

00:30:35.060 angels

00:30:35.480 and our

00:30:35.880 inner demons

00:30:36.760 between good

00:30:37.560 and evil

00:30:37.940 within us

00:30:38.620 is an important

00:30:41.580 idea

00:30:42.020 it doesn't have

00:30:43.160 to come from

00:30:43.860 the parable

00:30:44.900 of the snake

00:30:45.620 in the garden

00:30:46.380 of Eden

00:30:46.620 the problem

00:30:47.060 there is that

00:30:47.860 if it is

00:30:48.360 it's just a parable

00:30:49.420 and people

00:30:49.920 who weren't

00:30:50.400 grazed in the

00:30:50.900 Christian tradition

00:30:52.060 or who just

00:30:53.040 don't believe it

00:30:54.340 or can't slide

00:30:54.860 onto it

00:30:55.280 can reject it

00:30:56.160 but it's not

00:30:57.000 that abstruse

00:30:58.080 notion

00:30:58.420 it appears

00:30:59.400 also in

00:31:00.300 Freud's

00:31:01.260 contrast

00:31:01.900 between the

00:31:02.600 it and the

00:31:03.560 superego

00:31:04.060 it appears

00:31:04.960 in evolutionary

00:31:06.420 psychology

00:31:07.140 in terms

00:31:07.780 of the

00:31:08.340 particular

00:31:09.340 drives

00:31:10.000 and motives

00:31:11.180 that served

00:31:11.860 us well

00:31:12.340 in an

00:31:13.740 anarchic society

00:31:15.000 you see

00:31:16.860 in cartoons

00:31:17.380 with the devil

00:31:18.100 on one shoulder

00:31:18.820 and the angel

00:31:19.340 on the other

00:31:19.880 I think

00:31:21.580 if we think

00:31:22.080 it's a good

00:31:22.600 idea

00:31:23.040 we have to

00:31:23.760 articulate

00:31:24.180 why it's

00:31:24.880 a good idea

00:31:25.520 and express

00:31:26.360 it in a way

00:31:27.060 that anyone

00:31:27.880 can accept

00:31:28.920 it

00:31:29.140 regardless

00:31:29.820 of the

00:31:30.360 tradition

00:31:30.960 they happen

00:31:31.700 to have

00:31:32.180 been brought

00:31:33.440 up in

00:31:33.780 and in

00:31:35.220 terms of

00:31:35.540 the Jewish

00:31:36.580 notion

00:31:37.000 of humility

00:31:37.520 I'm sorry

00:31:38.460 but I have

00:31:39.040 to tell you

00:31:39.700 a Jewish

00:31:40.120 joke

00:31:40.480 which is

00:31:41.420 that on

00:31:41.740 the holiest

00:31:42.940 day of the

00:31:43.460 year

00:31:43.700 Yom Kippur

00:31:44.480 the rabbi

00:31:45.360 and the

00:31:45.680 cantor

00:31:46.100 are standing

00:31:46.600 in front

00:31:47.000 of the

00:31:47.420 open arc

00:31:49.160 with the

00:31:49.540 Torah scrolls

00:31:50.540 the cantor

00:31:51.520 falls to his

00:31:52.220 knees

00:31:52.500 and says

00:31:52.960 Lord I

00:31:53.640 am nothing

00:31:54.160 the rabbi

00:31:55.900 seeing him

00:31:56.960 falls to his

00:31:58.700 knees

00:31:58.900 and says

00:31:59.140 Lord I

00:31:59.640 am nothing

00:32:00.100 in the

00:32:00.680 back of

00:32:01.060 the synagogue

00:32:02.240 there's the

00:32:03.320 lowly janitor

00:32:04.320 overcome with

00:32:05.120 emotion

00:32:05.520 he falls to

00:32:06.680 his knees

00:32:07.040 and says

00:32:07.340 Lord I

00:32:07.880 am nothing

00:32:08.380 the rabbi

00:32:09.000 says to the

00:32:09.420 cantor

00:32:09.700 look who

00:32:10.080 thinks he's

00:32:10.460 nothing

00:32:10.740 so that's

00:32:16.280 humility

00:32:16.640 within the

00:32:17.100 Jewish tradition

00:32:17.640 when I was

00:32:21.020 reading

00:32:21.380 enlightenment

00:32:22.000 now

00:32:22.500 and I

00:32:24.180 was struck

00:32:24.720 by this

00:32:25.620 and I

00:32:26.520 guess this

00:32:26.840 is something

00:32:27.200 that's always

00:32:27.700 struck me

00:32:28.240 is that

00:32:28.600 there's a

00:32:30.940 power in

00:32:32.320 mimicry and

00:32:33.800 imitation

00:32:34.340 that's

00:32:35.520 attenuated

00:32:36.340 in rational

00:32:37.180 reasoning

00:32:38.040 and so

00:32:39.240 I've been

00:32:40.000 thinking again

00:32:40.720 about

00:32:41.360 Christianity

00:32:42.020 from a

00:32:42.580 psychological

00:32:43.040 perspective

00:32:43.720 and I

00:32:44.140 thought well

00:32:44.640 one way you

00:32:45.480 could characterize

00:32:46.180 it is that

00:32:46.860 it's a very

00:32:47.320 long discussion

00:32:48.260 about what

00:32:48.940 constitutes the

00:32:49.980 human ideal

00:32:50.780 and I've

00:32:52.060 been thinking

00:32:52.500 about what

00:32:53.120 unites people

00:32:53.980 and you

00:32:54.640 might say

00:32:55.120 well that

00:32:55.520 beliefs unite

00:32:56.300 them but I

00:32:56.800 think it's

00:32:57.260 the shared

00:32:57.920 pursuit of

00:32:58.860 an ideal

00:32:59.460 that unites

00:33:00.160 people rather

00:33:01.080 than beliefs

00:33:01.820 about the

00:33:02.300 state of the

00:33:02.780 world per

00:33:03.360 se and so

00:33:04.320 when I was

00:33:04.760 reading

00:33:05.020 enlightenment

00:33:05.420 now and

00:33:05.820 when I

00:33:06.080 read works

00:33:06.740 of other

00:33:07.140 rational

00:33:08.080 enlightenment

00:33:08.640 types

00:33:09.600 it's this

00:33:11.960 inability to

00:33:13.420 inspire that

00:33:14.500 torments me

00:33:15.800 because I

00:33:16.500 appreciate the

00:33:17.360 utility of the

00:33:18.120 arguments and

00:33:19.340 the power of

00:33:20.040 the technology

00:33:20.680 that's associated

00:33:21.440 with rational

00:33:22.100 thinking and

00:33:22.640 all of that

00:33:23.160 but things

00:33:24.620 seem to be

00:33:25.420 disintegrating

00:33:26.320 politically around

00:33:27.620 us despite

00:33:28.280 that rationality

00:33:29.460 and it isn't

00:33:30.220 clear to me

00:33:30.740 that it's a

00:33:31.300 sufficient force

00:33:32.040 to hold back

00:33:32.780 the tide

00:33:33.360 I mean look

00:33:34.220 what happened

00:33:34.720 to Dawkins

00:33:35.340 recently with

00:33:36.140 the humanists

00:33:36.920 for example

00:33:37.600 which was quite

00:33:38.340 shocking to me

00:33:39.260 and I suspect

00:33:40.100 to him as

00:33:40.740 well

00:33:41.160 me too

00:33:42.660 yeah

00:33:42.920 no it is

00:33:44.060 it is a

00:33:44.480 challenge of

00:33:45.020 how to engage

00:33:45.720 people's

00:33:46.560 how to get

00:33:47.600 their blood

00:33:48.980 pumping

00:33:49.320 their adrenaline

00:33:50.400 going

00:33:50.800 it's a dangerous

00:33:52.760 thing if it

00:33:53.320 can be

00:33:53.780 commandeered

00:33:54.420 by demagogues

00:33:55.940 and by

00:33:56.380 rabble rousers

00:33:57.380 I think it

00:33:59.080 is worth it

00:34:00.380 and I think

00:34:00.780 we don't know

00:34:01.240 enough about

00:34:01.820 this process

00:34:02.420 to look at

00:34:03.080 cases in

00:34:03.560 which there

00:34:03.860 have been

00:34:04.160 constructive

00:34:04.760 moral and

00:34:05.580 social movements

00:34:06.280 that have

00:34:06.780 managed to

00:34:07.400 engage people's

00:34:09.180 emotions

00:34:09.580 perhaps the

00:34:10.720 civil rights

00:34:11.700 movement in

00:34:12.280 its heyday

00:34:13.200 of Martin

00:34:13.620 Luther King

00:34:14.140 when John

00:34:15.540 F Kennedy

00:34:15.920 got a lot

00:34:17.040 of people

00:34:17.580 to join

00:34:17.960 the

00:34:18.240 young

00:34:18.700 people

00:34:18.880 to join

00:34:19.140 the

00:34:19.280 peace

00:34:19.500 corps

00:34:19.800 the

00:34:21.380 founding

00:34:21.760 of the

00:34:22.000 United

00:34:22.180 Nations

00:34:22.600 was a

00:34:23.400 source

00:34:23.700 of great

00:34:24.240 hope

00:34:26.820 I mean

00:34:27.120 the United

00:34:28.040 Nations

00:34:28.300 has its own

00:34:28.800 pathologies

00:34:29.460 but in its

00:34:30.420 time

00:34:30.640 even in

00:34:31.320 things like

00:34:31.820 there are

00:34:32.520 there's a

00:34:33.360 kind of

00:34:34.260 pseudo religion

00:34:35.560 to some

00:34:36.180 TED talks

00:34:37.360 where you've

00:34:37.840 got a

00:34:38.740 techno

00:34:39.580 optimist

00:34:40.260 who proposes

00:34:41.500 some way

00:34:42.980 of dealing

00:34:43.280 with climate

00:34:44.380 change

00:34:44.860 with malaria

00:34:45.540 with parasitic

00:34:47.160 disease

00:34:47.740 and in the

00:34:49.200 room you can

00:34:49.700 feel that

00:34:50.460 kind of

00:34:51.060 elevation

00:34:51.780 that awe

00:34:52.720 I think we

00:34:54.100 have to work

00:34:54.760 toward not

00:34:55.540 just engaging

00:34:57.500 any old

00:34:58.420 fervor

00:34:59.480 but to figure

00:35:00.520 out how we

00:35:01.220 marry that

00:35:01.920 fervor to

00:35:02.560 the causes

00:35:03.140 that generally

00:35:04.200 deserve it

00:35:04.900 I'm going to

00:35:06.460 play this

00:35:07.860 skeptic here

00:35:08.700 because my

00:35:09.420 new theme

00:35:10.020 that I'm

00:35:10.360 thinking

00:35:10.680 through

00:35:11.080 is

00:35:11.900 unmoralize

00:35:13.000 everything

00:35:13.540 that moral

00:35:14.680 moralism

00:35:15.480 moral judgment

00:35:16.100 you know

00:35:17.380 as I said

00:35:18.080 it's just

00:35:18.360 it makes

00:35:19.960 it difficult

00:35:20.300 to find the

00:35:20.640 truth

00:35:20.860 and so

00:35:22.300 constructive

00:35:23.160 moral and

00:35:23.680 social movements

00:35:24.240 well we're

00:35:24.520 all supposed

00:35:25.060 to think

00:35:25.420 well social

00:35:26.300 movements

00:35:26.600 are great

00:35:27.200 and the

00:35:28.940 civil rights

00:35:29.360 movement

00:35:29.800 women's

00:35:30.280 rights

00:35:30.480 movement

00:35:30.920 gay liberation

00:35:31.940 all the

00:35:32.620 incredible

00:35:33.380 rights

00:35:33.660 movements

00:35:34.000 over the

00:35:34.280 last 50

00:35:34.720 or 60

00:35:35.060 years

00:35:35.460 but that's

00:35:36.560 in part

00:35:37.020 because we

00:35:37.680 look back

00:35:38.240 at the

00:35:38.500 ones that

00:35:39.100 that were

00:35:41.120 successful

00:35:41.820 and that

00:35:42.620 were really

00:35:43.000 deeply

00:35:43.340 right about

00:35:44.260 writing

00:35:44.780 injustices

00:35:45.500 and now

00:35:47.500 when I look

00:35:48.140 at social

00:35:48.820 activism

00:35:49.360 on campus

00:35:51.060 and among

00:35:51.420 young people

00:35:52.160 I think

00:35:53.940 it

00:35:54.340 I have a

00:35:55.900 much greater

00:35:56.220 appreciation

00:35:56.700 for how

00:35:57.100 hard it is

00:35:57.760 to change

00:35:58.180 institutions

00:35:58.920 especially

00:36:00.040 complicated

00:36:00.580 institutions

00:36:01.180 that are

00:36:01.740 generally

00:36:02.160 trying to

00:36:02.940 to be open

00:36:04.420 and humane

00:36:05.420 anyway

00:36:05.840 and I

00:36:06.480 look at

00:36:06.740 the policies

00:36:07.300 that many

00:36:07.900 young people

00:36:08.540 are pressing

00:36:09.540 universities

00:36:10.080 to adopt

00:36:10.820 or pressing

00:36:11.420 companies

00:36:12.600 to adopt

00:36:13.160 and what

00:36:14.320 I see

00:36:14.960 happening

00:36:15.420 is

00:36:16.460 unmoored

00:36:19.620 moralism

00:36:20.460 trying to

00:36:21.900 change

00:36:22.160 institutions

00:36:22.660 without

00:36:22.920 understanding

00:36:23.560 them

00:36:23.940 and I'm

00:36:24.620 beginning

00:36:24.840 to think

00:36:25.400 that

00:36:26.340 social

00:36:27.540 activism

00:36:28.200 may on

00:36:29.640 net

00:36:30.060 be a

00:36:30.660 negative

00:36:31.060 thing

00:36:31.640 to the

00:36:32.820 extent

00:36:33.000 that now

00:36:33.640 it is

00:36:34.260 governed

00:36:34.640 more by

00:36:35.180 the social

00:36:35.600 dynamics

00:36:36.040 of social

00:36:36.540 media

00:36:36.900 and

00:36:37.480 self

00:36:37.860 presentation

00:36:38.360 than by

00:36:39.380 any real

00:36:39.960 study

00:36:40.420 of a

00:36:40.940 problem

00:36:41.340 and attempt

00:36:41.820 to come

00:36:42.060 up with

00:36:42.260 something

00:36:42.480 that would

00:36:42.760 work

00:36:43.160 so

00:36:44.080 you know

00:36:44.720 that's

00:36:45.000 blindness

00:36:45.440 blindness

00:36:45.920 isn't it

00:36:46.600 I mean

00:36:46.920 blindness

00:36:47.540 what do

00:36:48.100 you mean

00:36:48.400 they're blind

00:36:48.940 to what

00:36:49.140 they're blind

00:36:49.480 about

00:36:49.720 yes

00:36:50.180 exactly

00:36:50.720 it's

00:36:50.980 well

00:36:51.800 you know

00:36:52.520 if you

00:36:53.580 put someone

00:36:54.320 on the spot

00:36:54.960 and you

00:36:55.260 ask them

00:36:55.620 if they

00:36:55.900 could run

00:36:56.240 a nuclear

00:36:56.640 power plant

00:36:57.280 they'll

00:36:57.520 say no

00:36:57.960 but if

00:36:58.280 you ask

00:36:58.640 them what

00:36:58.920 should be

00:36:59.220 done

00:36:59.400 about the

00:36:59.780 entire

00:37:00.100 world's

00:37:00.580 electrical

00:37:01.080 grid

00:37:01.400 they'll

00:37:01.640 tell you

00:37:02.020 the answer

00:37:02.620 and that's

00:37:03.820 a good

00:37:04.060 example

00:37:04.480 of not

00:37:04.980 decomposing

00:37:05.780 the problem

00:37:06.280 down into

00:37:06.940 units that

00:37:08.260 could actually

00:37:08.700 be addressed

00:37:09.260 intelligently

00:37:10.100 but you know

00:37:11.300 so you're

00:37:11.940 noticing this

00:37:12.820 this activism

00:37:14.080 and you're

00:37:14.660 doubtful about

00:37:15.520 its utility

00:37:16.260 and your

00:37:17.040 solution

00:37:17.500 and we can

00:37:19.160 talk about

00:37:19.580 this more

00:37:20.020 is to

00:37:20.420 take the

00:37:21.780 moral fervor

00:37:22.420 out of it

00:37:22.900 so I was

00:37:23.980 thinking recently

00:37:24.740 about

00:37:25.140 Jean Piaget's

00:37:26.220 argument

00:37:27.120 you know

00:37:27.580 his final

00:37:28.440 stage of

00:37:29.060 cognitive

00:37:29.500 development

00:37:30.140 hardly anybody

00:37:30.940 knows this

00:37:31.640 but it

00:37:32.280 was the

00:37:32.620 messianic

00:37:33.360 stage

00:37:33.940 well I've

00:37:34.880 never heard

00:37:35.200 about

00:37:35.420 absolutely

00:37:36.000 there's many

00:37:36.760 things about

00:37:37.360 Piaget that

00:37:38.060 people haven't

00:37:38.680 heard about

00:37:39.080 you know

00:37:39.380 that his

00:37:39.780 goal was to

00:37:41.780 unite religion

00:37:42.540 and science

00:37:43.280 oh

00:37:43.780 yes

00:37:44.660 Piaget is a

00:37:45.800 very strange

00:37:46.340 character and

00:37:46.900 all you hear

00:37:47.340 about is the

00:37:48.180 rational stage

00:37:48.920 theory but

00:37:49.260 anyways the

00:37:49.800 last stage

00:37:50.440 was the

00:37:50.780 messianic

00:37:51.460 and he

00:37:52.160 identified that

00:37:52.980 as a stage

00:37:53.640 in late

00:37:53.940 adolescence

00:37:54.380 not everyone

00:37:54.840 reached it

00:37:55.460 but that

00:37:56.220 it involved

00:37:56.820 a world

00:37:57.480 changing

00:37:58.000 fervor and

00:37:58.620 he identified

00:37:59.480 that as part

00:38:00.160 of what

00:38:00.420 catalyzed

00:38:00.940 identity and

00:38:01.940 so we're

00:38:02.260 seeing that

00:38:02.820 these students

00:38:03.540 they come to

00:38:04.040 university they

00:38:04.820 want to

00:38:05.160 catalyze their

00:38:05.820 identity in a

00:38:06.940 profound way and

00:38:08.260 orient themselves

00:38:09.280 and what seems

00:38:10.780 to happen is the

00:38:11.760 activist types

00:38:12.720 tap into that

00:38:13.660 and offer them a

00:38:14.720 solution and the

00:38:15.760 solution seems

00:38:16.480 dangerous but it

00:38:17.320 doesn't look like

00:38:18.080 the intelligent

00:38:18.740 people are offering

00:38:19.700 anything that's

00:38:20.420 useful as an

00:38:21.300 alternative because

00:38:22.380 they're not getting

00:38:23.160 anywhere with it

00:38:23.980 and so we

00:38:25.300 have to ask

00:38:25.880 ourselves exactly

00:38:26.720 why that is

00:38:27.620 and part of it

00:38:28.760 is the lack of

00:38:29.440 romance I think

00:38:30.500 you know when

00:38:32.000 Orwell wrote

00:38:33.220 about the Nazis

00:38:33.960 in the 1930s

00:38:35.280 he was he was

00:38:37.260 very careful to

00:38:38.340 highlight their

00:38:39.820 dramatic use of

00:38:41.120 ritual and the

00:38:41.880 romantic attraction

00:38:42.780 of course he was

00:38:43.540 absolutely opposed to

00:38:44.660 everything they were

00:38:45.220 doing as anyone

00:38:45.940 rightly should be

00:38:46.840 but Orwell was

00:38:48.100 very wise and

00:38:49.260 about human nature

00:38:50.600 in general and

00:38:52.160 there's a drama

00:38:53.200 in what's being

00:38:54.140 offered to

00:38:54.660 adolescents that

00:38:55.700 the rational

00:38:56.740 approach doesn't

00:38:57.600 seem to engender

00:38:58.560 and I don't know

00:38:59.240 how to solve that

00:38:59.940 problem I think

00:39:00.420 it's a terrible

00:39:00.960 problem but

00:39:02.240 well I'm going to

00:39:04.440 mediate between

00:39:05.200 Jordan what you've

00:39:06.340 been saying and

00:39:06.760 what Jolin offered

00:39:08.280 and I do tend to

00:39:09.680 agree with John I

00:39:10.460 was trying to make

00:39:10.940 some concessions

00:39:11.660 toward the

00:39:12.460 possibility that you

00:39:13.340 can best energize

00:39:14.200 people by somehow

00:39:15.160 co-opting this

00:39:16.120 fervor but we

00:39:18.240 but I think it's

00:39:19.620 probably an open

00:39:20.140 question how much

00:39:21.360 can you engage

00:39:22.100 people without

00:39:22.880 the trappings of

00:39:24.940 religion or

00:39:25.680 pseudo religion can

00:39:26.980 you engender a

00:39:27.900 problem-solving

00:39:28.800 mindset as opposed

00:39:30.000 to a struggle

00:39:30.860 mindset that's right

00:39:31.820 and before we write

00:39:33.080 write people off and

00:39:33.920 saying no no they

00:39:34.560 can't no one likes

00:39:35.640 solving problems it's

00:39:36.620 too boring it doesn't

00:39:37.800 get heart pounding

00:39:38.620 you've got to they've

00:39:39.900 got to wear colored

00:39:40.480 shirts they've got to

00:39:41.180 salute something they've

00:39:42.360 got to they've got to

00:39:42.980 bow down you know we

00:39:44.080 have you know we did

00:39:45.700 eliminate smallpox

00:39:46.780 we've drastically

00:39:49.560 reduced the amount

00:39:52.000 of warfare partly

00:39:53.080 because of you know

00:39:54.560 John and Yoko and

00:39:55.480 Peter Paul and Mary

00:39:56.280 but also because of

00:39:57.880 much more practical

00:39:58.840 treaties and

00:40:00.220 organizations we've

00:40:02.460 drastically reduced

00:40:03.620 extreme poverty not

00:40:05.260 because of the

00:40:06.840 teachings of the

00:40:07.860 Hebrew prophets or

00:40:08.760 Jesus but because of

00:40:10.400 China and Indonesia

00:40:12.040 and India adopting

00:40:13.000 capitalism to to tie

00:40:14.580 into the theme of

00:40:15.500 John's impending

00:40:17.220 book so it's there

00:40:19.560 there is a tendency

00:40:20.840 there's a vulnerability

00:40:21.700 in people to want

00:40:23.720 to belong to

00:40:24.720 transcendent movements

00:40:26.060 involving some kind

00:40:27.060 of conflict on the

00:40:28.540 other hand we

00:40:29.080 haven't done so bad

00:40:30.200 at combating disease

00:40:31.440 and poverty and war

00:40:32.900 with a more

00:40:33.500 technocratic problem

00:40:34.740 solving mindset so

00:40:36.220 maybe Jonathan's

00:40:37.400 right that that we

00:40:38.720 ought to just

00:40:39.220 minimize this these

00:40:41.600 dangerous passions and

00:40:42.980 treat more things as

00:40:44.000 problems to be

00:40:44.560 solved well so my

00:40:46.580 concern I agree with

00:40:47.400 your your description

00:40:48.120 of what came before

00:40:49.320 but my concern is

00:40:51.340 that is that the

00:40:52.560 universe is different

00:40:53.520 after 2012 than it

00:40:54.740 was before 2009 that

00:40:57.020 the fundamental nature

00:40:58.040 of society was

00:40:59.280 rewired by everyone

00:41:00.800 going on to social

00:41:02.260 media especially

00:41:03.860 Facebook and Twitter

00:41:04.840 but all the other

00:41:05.680 platforms as well and

00:41:07.160 so whatever was

00:41:08.040 possible whatever the

00:41:08.760 arrangements were

00:41:09.220 before some of that

00:41:10.840 is still valid today

00:41:11.820 but a lot of it

00:41:12.540 isn't and we often

00:41:13.260 don't know what

00:41:14.200 parts and so

00:41:15.500 whether you're

00:41:16.920 talking about how

00:41:17.740 we motive how we

00:41:18.720 mobilize to solve

00:41:19.440 problems so just

00:41:23.800 just to take one

00:41:24.440 example activist

00:41:27.260 movements generally

00:41:29.900 had adults in them

00:41:31.280 they had adults and

00:41:32.500 then young people

00:41:33.240 would come into them

00:41:34.180 as well and there

00:41:35.360 was there were

00:41:36.140 multiple generations

00:41:37.040 of knowledge about

00:41:39.340 how things work and

00:41:40.320 how they want to

00:41:41.000 change but now

00:41:43.160 that everyone is

00:41:43.800 connected to everyone

00:41:44.700 and and if things go

00:41:46.240 at many times the

00:41:47.780 speed I think you

00:41:49.820 can have a groundswell

00:41:50.960 for a reform of a

00:41:52.420 system that gets

00:41:54.200 pushed through within

00:41:54.900 days or weeks just

00:41:57.980 by people with very

00:41:59.060 little input from

00:41:59.860 adults and that's why

00:42:00.780 I think we see over

00:42:01.620 and over again

00:42:02.300 demands you know

00:42:03.780 just speaking from

00:42:04.220 the area I know

00:42:04.640 best on campus you

00:42:06.120 know demands that

00:42:07.240 dozens and hundreds

00:42:08.140 of schools year after

00:42:09.140 year for things that

00:42:10.080 make race relations

00:42:11.600 and inclusion and

00:42:12.420 diversity worse so

00:42:14.120 so I'm just concerned

00:42:15.940 and it's just this is

00:42:16.820 just one little

00:42:17.240 example but in so

00:42:18.060 many ways I think

00:42:19.620 the 2010s were weird

00:42:20.920 because life after

00:42:22.700 2012 is just

00:42:23.440 fundamentally different

00:42:24.160 from life before

00:42:24.740 2009 well go ahead

00:42:28.360 Stephen yeah although

00:42:30.060 I mean I I see that

00:42:31.260 happening and there

00:42:31.860 has been a change

00:42:32.800 toward intolerance

00:42:34.920 and struggle as

00:42:36.800 opposed to problem

00:42:37.400 solving the last few

00:42:38.080 years on the other

00:42:39.160 hand the demands

00:42:40.480 are being accepted

00:42:41.340 by baby boomers

00:42:43.140 by the deans and

00:42:44.520 the provosts and

00:42:46.120 if you rewind the

00:42:47.560 tape back to when

00:42:48.680 we were college

00:42:49.320 students there's an

00:42:50.160 awful lot of

00:42:51.120 inanity and

00:42:51.980 extremism and

00:42:52.980 repression of speech

00:42:53.980 E.O.

00:42:54.740 Wilson and Dick

00:42:56.340 Herrnstein and Tom

00:42:58.460 Bouchard and many

00:42:59.800 others were cancelled

00:43:00.660 there were posters

00:43:01.480 I have one from

00:43:02.180 1984 a talk for

00:43:04.380 E.O.

00:43:04.620 Wilson bring

00:43:05.120 noisemakers and

00:43:06.600 now the student

00:43:07.780 activists of when

00:43:10.100 we were students

00:43:10.940 are now the deans

00:43:12.020 and the provosts who

00:43:13.060 are happily ratifying

00:43:14.820 these extreme

00:43:16.140 demands you know at

00:43:17.640 the same time and

00:43:18.320 then we all know

00:43:18.960 this from our

00:43:19.620 students this is not

00:43:21.000 a uniformly woke

00:43:22.180 generation there are

00:43:23.540 awful awful lot of

00:43:24.640 students who are

00:43:26.380 intimidated into

00:43:27.640 silence and they think

00:43:28.460 gee I must be the

00:43:29.340 only Satan person

00:43:30.740 everyone else is

00:43:31.280 crazy and an awful

00:43:32.280 lot of people are all

00:43:33.300 thinking that so I do

00:43:34.660 agree that there is a

00:43:35.520 problem of just

00:43:36.720 mature judgment but

00:43:38.680 it isn't completely a

00:43:40.340 cohort effect

00:43:41.140 but that's my point

00:43:44.280 is that it's not a

00:43:45.540 cohort effect it's a

00:43:46.880 it's a change in

00:43:47.560 dynamics so it used

00:43:49.580 to be that there

00:43:50.260 would be some

00:43:51.040 activists but other

00:43:52.580 people could still

00:43:53.180 have a conversation or

00:43:54.220 they could still have

00:43:54.900 some they could still

00:43:55.940 play play a role

00:43:57.060 you're right that the

00:43:58.740 people giving into the

00:43:59.880 demands are people

00:44:00.880 from the previous

00:44:01.320 generation who were

00:44:02.300 the at least that

00:44:03.680 generation earlier but

00:44:04.860 they're not happily

00:44:05.480 giving in I've spoken

00:44:06.400 to many leaders in

00:44:07.700 the academic world

00:44:08.300 they all hate it

00:44:09.100 they're they they

00:44:10.700 are they feel

00:44:11.380 stuck they feel

00:44:12.020 pressured they don't

00:44:12.620 know what to do and

00:44:14.100 now it's the same

00:44:14.640 thing people leading

00:44:15.760 non-profits especially

00:44:16.740 progressive non-profits

00:44:17.780 or companies so it's

00:44:20.280 not that young people

00:44:21.320 are woke it's that the

00:44:22.840 dynamics have changed

00:44:23.820 so that the woke among

00:44:25.180 the young now have

00:44:26.800 such power to

00:44:28.120 intimidate others into

00:44:29.020 silence and this is

00:44:30.080 what we see in

00:44:30.580 universities that

00:44:31.680 students are not

00:44:32.380 afraid of their

00:44:32.800 professors they're

00:44:33.420 afraid of a subset

00:44:34.460 of students and the

00:44:35.460 professors are not

00:44:36.180 afraid of anyone

00:44:36.880 except this subset of

00:44:38.080 students and the

00:44:38.740 presidents well they

00:44:39.720 have other donors and

00:44:41.140 other people who to

00:44:42.200 please but but the

00:44:44.280 dynamics of social

00:44:45.320 media allows the small

00:44:46.600 group to weaponize

00:44:47.760 their moralism and to

00:44:49.420 intimidate others into

00:44:50.220 silence and this is

00:44:51.280 happening in so many

00:44:52.400 institutions not

00:44:53.200 everywhere but it is

00:44:54.920 happening and so what

00:44:55.560 we need to do is not

00:44:56.300 change a generation what

00:44:57.980 we need to do is change

00:44:58.720 the dynamics so that bad

00:45:01.480 ideas don't dominate and

00:45:03.580 intimidate so why do

00:45:05.300 you single out 2012

00:45:07.520 so 2009 is when

00:45:11.580 facebook added the like

00:45:12.720 button and twitter added

00:45:13.520 the retweet button and

00:45:15.320 before then social media

00:45:16.520 was not particularly

00:45:17.400 polarizing people would

00:45:19.080 put up a friendster page

00:45:20.560 or a myspace page or a

00:45:21.940 facebook page with what

00:45:23.580 they liked and here's

00:45:24.460 here's who i am not

00:45:25.260 polarizing at all and

00:45:26.880 then in 2009 you get the

00:45:29.480 the like button and

00:45:30.720 then the retweet button

00:45:31.500 and then twitter and

00:45:32.080 facebook copy each other

00:45:33.060 very quickly so now both

00:45:34.160 platforms have both like

00:45:35.300 and retweet now both

00:45:37.300 platforms have huge

00:45:38.440 amounts of information

00:45:39.260 about engagement and now

00:45:40.660 they can algorithmicize

00:45:41.780 all the feeds and so as

00:45:44.140 it's more engaging this

00:45:45.080 is the two or three years

00:45:46.080 where at least

00:45:47.320 adolescents i have data

00:45:48.280 or you know data from

00:45:49.380 national survey showing

00:45:50.100 this is the two years

00:45:51.120 when adolescents go from

00:45:52.720 mostly not being on

00:45:53.940 these platforms every day

00:45:54.760 to now teen social life

00:45:56.220 is mostly conducted on

00:45:57.200 various platforms so do

00:45:58.880 you think that's so are

00:46:00.120 you characterizing that

00:46:01.140 as a positive feedback

00:46:02.220 loop essentially

00:46:03.180 the like buttons with

00:46:05.480 the algorithms

00:46:06.160 yes exactly it's a

00:46:08.480 feedback loop and it's

00:46:09.400 also the most powerful

00:46:10.940 uh not pavlovian it's

00:46:12.600 uh just behaviorist

00:46:13.660 behaviorist conditioning

00:46:14.500 mechanism ever

00:46:15.440 operant thank you

00:46:16.580 thanks steve

00:46:17.160 operant yes i used i

00:46:18.440 haven't taught psych

00:46:18.960 101 in 10 years

00:46:19.740 um but you know if you

00:46:21.420 think about it you know

00:46:22.580 if you many people have

00:46:23.680 seen that video of bf

00:46:24.940 skinner training a

00:46:26.040 pigeon to turn in a

00:46:26.940 circle by just

00:46:27.520 reinforcing slightly more

00:46:29.000 clockwise behaviors

00:46:30.520 counterclockwise behaviors

00:46:31.740 in the video and if you

00:46:33.120 think about it as soon as

00:46:34.400 as soon as someone gets

00:46:35.460 on social media and they

00:46:36.460 post something um now

00:46:38.420 people are giving them

00:46:39.440 little reinforcements and

00:46:40.720 so and it's within

00:46:41.760 seconds i mean people you

00:46:43.140 post something and then

00:46:44.040 sometimes you check within

00:46:44.920 a minute what do people

00:46:46.100 think about it and so we

00:46:47.600 have um uh so this is

00:46:49.840 why uh so these are

00:46:51.120 ideas that i developed with

00:46:51.980 tobias rose stockwell we

00:46:53.200 had an article in the

00:46:53.820 atlantic on uh why

00:46:55.880 everything's going hey

00:46:57.180 why democracy is going

00:46:58.000 hey why or something

00:46:58.640 like that um well the

00:47:00.280 positive feedback loop

00:47:01.520 idea is really interesting

00:47:02.780 too because a lot of

00:47:04.200 psychopathologies are

00:47:05.840 positive feedback loops so

00:47:07.360 if you get depressed and

00:47:08.740 you start isolating

00:47:09.540 yourself because you're

00:47:10.660 depressed you get more

00:47:11.580 depressed if you drink

00:47:13.160 alcohol and go into

00:47:14.240 withdrawal and then drink

00:47:15.380 to cure that you become

00:47:16.560 alcoholic if you are

00:47:18.600 agoraphobic and you

00:47:19.660 avoid you get more

00:47:20.640 afraid like a lot of

00:47:22.160 psychopathological

00:47:23.100 processes are positive

00:47:24.280 feedback loops and so

00:47:26.020 the combination of the

00:47:27.300 algorithm with the like

00:47:28.560 that's we don't know

00:47:29.640 what these technologies

00:47:30.620 are doing to us we

00:47:31.560 don't have a clue we

00:47:32.520 have no we have some

00:47:33.480 clues and it's okay

00:47:34.520 pretty much all bad um

00:47:36.420 so yes we get that

00:47:37.580 feedback loop that now

00:47:39.220 now you can have have

00:47:40.600 the echo chambers and

00:47:41.960 bubbles if you're prone

00:47:43.480 to extremist politics on

00:47:44.820 either side you now

00:47:46.380 because based on what you

00:47:47.420 like what youtube videos

00:47:48.480 you watch that sucks you

00:47:49.760 down into more extreme

00:47:50.760 ones and into a

00:47:51.520 community so the

00:47:52.560 algorithms are doing

00:47:53.360 two things they're

00:47:54.700 picking our friends

00:47:56.160 because they're going

00:47:57.080 they say you should

00:47:58.100 meet this person because

00:47:58.980 people you know meet

00:47:59.820 him so the algorithms

00:48:00.600 are making our friends

00:48:02.140 different from what

00:48:03.460 they used to be and

00:48:04.480 the algorithms are

00:48:05.240 making what we watch

00:48:06.180 and consume different

00:48:07.200 um and in some ways

00:48:08.860 that's good because we

00:48:09.800 it's things that we

00:48:10.640 enjoy but the one of

00:48:12.500 the problems for a

00:48:13.100 liberal democracy as

00:48:13.960 the founding fathers

00:48:14.640 knew is faction

00:48:15.480 factionalism people

00:48:16.960 become so focused on

00:48:18.520 defeating the other

00:48:19.160 side they lose sight

00:48:20.160 they lose concern for

00:48:21.080 the common good

00:48:21.820 well you might also

00:48:22.940 think that it would

00:48:23.880 be necessary like if

00:48:25.340 you go to public

00:48:26.000 school you go to

00:48:27.500 school with 30 people

00:48:28.860 who are basically

00:48:29.680 randomly selected from

00:48:31.140 the population and so

00:48:32.360 then you have to

00:48:33.260 maybe in Canada

00:48:34.380 well in Canada

00:48:36.820 you have to you have

00:48:38.420 to you have to modify

00:48:39.680 your behavior to take

00:48:41.260 into account a broad

00:48:42.340 range of people and

00:48:43.380 you didn't pick them

00:48:44.360 whereas online if

00:48:46.080 you're starting to only

00:48:47.240 aggregate with people

00:48:48.420 who think the way that

00:48:49.980 your interest indicates

00:48:51.480 you think then is it

00:48:53.240 possible that you start

00:48:54.360 to lose touch

00:48:55.040 cognitively with the

00:48:56.160 broader culture and

00:48:57.240 you don't even know

00:48:57.740 what it is anymore

00:48:58.600 and that's that's

00:49:00.600 right and that's why

00:49:01.340 I'm particularly

00:49:01.800 concerned about Gen Z

00:49:03.100 because the mental

00:49:05.880 health data shows that

00:49:06.760 their mental health

00:49:07.520 plummeted beginning

00:49:08.340 around 2012 whereas

00:49:09.520 the millennials they

00:49:10.720 didn't get social media

00:49:11.600 until they were in

00:49:12.600 college or after

00:49:13.320 college and I think

00:49:14.820 that if you if you're

00:49:16.860 exposed to a broad

00:49:18.760 range of ideas and

00:49:19.820 books and people

00:49:20.620 you you have a chance

00:49:22.700 to get your mind

00:49:23.540 broadened when you're

00:49:24.340 when you're young

00:49:25.140 but if you think about

00:49:26.480 the the river of

00:49:27.640 inputs coming into

00:49:28.580 people's eyes and

00:49:29.380 ears when we were

00:49:30.640 all growing up we

00:49:31.680 watched way too much

00:49:32.520 television but

00:49:33.260 television was made

00:49:34.220 by older people it

00:49:35.600 was made by people

00:49:36.420 were not children and

00:49:37.800 so we at least you

00:49:38.660 know from watching

00:49:39.180 Bugs Bunny you're at

00:49:40.020 least exposed to

00:49:40.620 opera and you're

00:49:41.280 exposed to certain

00:49:41.880 cultural themes and

00:49:43.040 and you know even have

00:49:44.140 a sense of the 1940s

00:49:45.340 let's say but once

00:49:47.780 everyone got onto

00:49:48.420 social media all the

00:49:49.280 time now the river

00:49:50.920 of input so much of

00:49:51.980 it was created in the

00:49:52.780 last week or two by

00:49:53.860 people your age and

00:49:55.340 so there's just not

00:49:55.960 much room for people

00:49:58.220 in this post war you

00:49:59.560 know in the after

00:50:00.060 times let's say and

00:50:00.960 you know after the

00:50:01.700 social media world

00:50:02.420 there's not much room

00:50:03.400 for kids to learn

00:50:04.100 anything about the

00:50:05.100 20th century or

00:50:06.080 communism or Nazism or

00:50:08.680 great literature most

00:50:10.860 so much input is

00:50:12.200 jammed up with trivia

00:50:13.560 ephemera and to

00:50:15.620 extent that there's

00:50:16.140 political content it's

00:50:17.400 it's not broadening

00:50:18.140 your mind it's turning

00:50:19.040 you into the kind of

00:50:19.860 factionalist that the

00:50:20.800 founding fathers feared

00:50:21.820 so that's my most

00:50:25.240 pessimistic take that

00:50:26.600 yes Steve Steve is

00:50:27.780 right we had incredible

00:50:28.720 progress up until 2009

00:50:30.180 but in the world after

00:50:31.480 2012 I think our

00:50:32.640 institutions that the

00:50:34.460 institutions of liberal

00:50:35.220 democracy are in such

00:50:36.380 danger that it's quite

00:50:37.780 possible that the future

00:50:38.740 will not be like the

00:50:39.500 past I don't know what's

00:50:40.440 going to happen but I

00:50:41.360 now see that as a

00:50:42.280 possibility that I

00:50:43.540 didn't see five years

00:50:44.380 ago and what do you

00:50:45.380 see as the danger at

00:50:46.540 the moment so the

00:50:48.460 danger I think is that

00:50:50.620 a secular liberal

00:50:51.800 democracy is a

00:50:52.780 miraculous thing but a

00:50:54.180 fragile thing and we

00:50:56.000 briefly thought in the

00:50:56.960 1990s with the fall of

00:50:58.520 the Berlin Wall that this

00:50:59.840 was the end of history

00:51:00.740 liberal democracy had

00:51:01.780 won eventually North

00:51:03.620 Korea Iran well

00:51:05.200 everybody's going to be

00:51:05.880 a liberal democracy

00:51:06.640 once just once they get

00:51:07.700 a little richer they'll

00:51:08.480 they'll want that but

00:51:10.180 now it's clear that the

00:51:11.600 founders were right that

00:51:13.180 that a that a diverse

00:51:15.320 democracy a democracy

00:51:17.000 per se per se is very

00:51:19.240 difficult very fragile and

00:51:20.760 as Madison said as

00:51:22.700 violent in their deaths

00:51:23.920 as they are short-lived in

00:51:25.240 their lives and so the

00:51:28.280 20th century we had all

00:51:29.460 kinds of centripetal

00:51:30.460 pressures including

00:51:31.120 especially World War II

00:51:32.380 binding us together we

00:51:34.580 had briefly a centripetal

00:51:37.460 media system where we all

00:51:39.020 got the same news so there

00:51:40.780 we had the high point of

00:51:42.160 professional journalism it

00:51:43.880 wasn't that way before the

00:51:44.780 1920s and it isn't that

00:51:46.020 way after 2012 so there

00:51:47.640 was this period where the

00:51:49.120 institutions that grounded

00:51:50.760 us to truth or rather gave

00:51:52.660 us a process by which we

00:51:54.140 could make progress towards

00:51:55.340 truth and weed out terrible

00:51:56.940 ideas that it turns out was

00:51:59.020 just a temporary thing and I

00:52:00.700 see it fading away and this

00:52:02.760 is so Jonathan Rausch has a

00:52:04.100 book coming out in a week or

00:52:05.680 two called the Constitution of

00:52:06.780 Knowledge Steve is going to

00:52:08.340 cover a lot of this in his

00:52:09.600 book on rationality so let

00:52:11.200 me kick it over to Steve

00:52:11.900 Steve you know what do you

00:52:13.200 see do you see that things

00:52:14.420 are changing the last 10

00:52:15.380 years or so in ways that

00:52:16.820 are a danger to a liberal

00:52:18.020 democracy such as ours

00:52:19.180 some of them are although in

00:52:21.300 the last 10 years globally

00:52:22.940 we've seen extreme poverty

00:52:24.920 continue to decline we've

00:52:27.300 seen war decline after the

00:52:30.440 blip from the Syrian civil

00:52:32.140 war which temporarily

00:52:33.520 reversed the trend we've

00:52:35.120 seen movements like the

00:52:36.660 the legalization of gay

00:52:38.300 marriage in the United

00:52:39.320 States the restrictions in

00:52:42.120 the application of the death

00:52:43.500 penalty so there are a lot

00:52:45.040 of these long-term movements

00:52:46.300 that are are continuing and

00:52:48.460 also got to remember that in

00:52:49.960 the 60s and 70s one thing

00:52:52.900 domestically there were weekly

00:52:55.280 bombings and riots with police

00:52:57.680 shooting a dozen rioters a night

00:53:00.640 the the weathermen the black

00:53:03.360 liberation armies my knees

00:53:05.260 liberation army I'm getting

00:53:06.660 all of that oh yes things

00:53:08.020 are things are materially

00:53:09.880 things are continuing to get

00:53:10.880 better I give you all of

00:53:11.960 that and but but and and if

00:53:15.320 you listen back I mean I've

00:53:17.160 been watching the Apple TV

00:53:18.960 series in 1971 year the music

00:53:20.860 changed everything oh I

00:53:22.340 highly recommend it it's a

00:53:24.160 reminder of a lot of the

00:53:25.820 political inanity of our

00:53:27.920 generation and the our older

00:53:29.700 brothers and sisters who were

00:53:31.940 Maoists who are Marxists who are

00:53:34.800 violent insurrectionists and not

00:53:37.540 just in rhetoric but there

00:53:38.800 really was a lot of violence

00:53:39.940 there were bombings there were

00:53:41.220 judges whose heads were blown

00:53:42.720 off oh my god it was a pretty

00:53:45.040 ugly time and even in terms of

00:53:48.420 it's certainly true that there

00:53:49.540 is no overall progressive force

00:53:54.040 toward liberal democracy and

00:53:55.340 there have there's absolutely

00:53:56.500 been a recession in the last

00:53:58.020 decade in countries like Hungary

00:53:59.800 and Turkey and the United States

00:54:01.340 and Russia on the other hand if

00:54:03.380 you look at the graph of number

00:54:05.300 of democracies scaled by how

00:54:07.180 democratic how autocratic they

00:54:08.940 are we backslid maybe to 2010

00:54:11.580 we have to remember that in the

00:54:13.880 1970s there were only 33

00:54:16.100 democracies on earth half of

00:54:18.180 Europe was behind the Iron

00:54:19.600 Curtain Spain and Portugal were

00:54:21.760 literally fascist dictatorships all

00:54:24.540 of Latin America you know juntas

00:54:26.500 banana republics military

00:54:28.040 governments Taiwan was a military

00:54:30.160 dictatorship South Korea was a

00:54:31.740 military dictatorship there has

00:54:33.500 been some backsliding but not back

00:54:35.540 to the 1970s so it's sort of

00:54:37.380 premature to abandon the liberal

00:54:40.740 democratic ideal I agree that has

00:54:43.020 to be that there is some it's not

00:54:45.480 it's not so fragile that we have

00:54:47.820 gone all the way back to the the

00:54:49.680 1970s and there are some built-in

00:54:51.580 advantages like people want to live

00:54:53.340 there that's where people who vote

00:54:55.260 with their feet end up we know from I

00:54:57.700 mean John I know you you covered this

00:54:59.500 in your your book on happiness but

00:55:00.980 people in liberal democracies are

00:55:02.880 happier and and together with

00:55:06.160 material affluence which of course

00:55:08.580 liberal democracies are very good at

00:55:10.720 delivering the second as I recall

00:55:13.380 contributor to happiness is a sense of

00:55:16.400 freedom so people there is at least

00:55:19.080 pushing in the direction of liberal

00:55:20.820 democracy against agreed the

00:55:23.020 tribalist and authoritarian and and

00:55:25.920 backslide and and magical thinking

00:55:28.720 there is people's desire for

00:55:31.020 prosperity and freedom at least for

00:55:32.580 the for themselves and pushing back

00:55:35.920 against the kind of the positive

00:55:38.820 feedback loops the vortexes of

00:55:40.940 misinformation and fake news and so on

00:55:44.120 there is the fact that you know

00:55:45.700 reality is that which doesn't go away

00:55:47.160 when you stop believing in it that and

00:55:49.500 and Jonathan Rauch is clear in his book

00:55:51.300 which just recently came out which I I

00:55:53.140 admire as much as you do that that there

00:55:56.020 are some that because reality is still

00:55:59.500 there there's always a resource to that

00:56:04.100 the constitution of knowledge what he

00:56:06.540 called liberal science always has behind

00:56:08.920 it that in the end you can't wish away

00:56:11.360 reality for for long

00:56:12.740 and I wonder I wonder if one of the

00:56:16.260 differences between now in the 1970s I

00:56:18.960 mean because I often think about now

00:56:20.580 compared to 1972 which was not exactly a

00:56:22.940 banner year that was the year of the oil

00:56:24.420 crisis I mean it seems 73 yeah 73 it

00:56:29.980 seems that there were terrible things

00:56:33.340 going on in the world at that time that

00:56:35.120 people were concerned about and they

00:56:37.500 seem equally concerned now and equally

00:56:40.000 divisive but the terrible things aren't

00:56:41.840 going on I mean the Vietnam War was

00:56:44.520 raging the Cold War was raging we were

00:56:46.900 concerned about running out of oil and

00:56:48.520 that seemed that turned out to be you

00:56:50.420 know a non-starter overpopulation

00:56:52.380 yes I mean extinction yes yes so so and

00:56:55.720 a lot of those things didn't manifest

00:56:57.220 themselves but certainly the Cold War

00:56:59.260 was absolutely real and it and it was

00:57:01.300 raging away in in Vietnam among other

00:57:03.420 places and so people were very bent out

00:57:06.700 of shape about that and rightly so and

00:57:08.880 now there seems to be an equal amount of

00:57:10.640 being bent out of shape but the

00:57:12.400 contributing factors seem even far less

00:57:15.360 obvious than they were in the 1970s and

00:57:17.260 so that seems to be the mediating factor

00:57:19.860 between the position you've staked out in

00:57:22.280 this discussion Stephen and the one that

00:57:24.220 you're describing Jonathan is that you

00:57:27.260 know it's not worse than it was in the

00:57:28.560 70s except there's no reason for it now

00:57:30.700 yeah no so I so I again I totally accept

00:57:34.960 Steve's Steve's points about progress and

00:57:37.880 about how there are many people particularly

00:57:40.580 as he says progressives who don't want to

00:57:43.500 acknowledge that there's been progress I

00:57:46.120 don't deny any of that I'm I just I feel

00:57:49.660 like we're just in the first stages of this

00:57:52.280 new way of living in which we won't be able

00:57:55.580 to find truth the processes that let us find

00:57:58.340 truth have decayed in ways that might make

00:58:01.520 the future different from the past and so if

00:58:03.680 you look at what is happening in journalism

00:58:06.860 and many people now you know not just people on

00:58:10.220 the right but centrists and others are saying

00:58:12.620 the New York Times is just not as reliable as

00:58:14.420 it used to be since it's committed itself

00:58:16.220 I heard a discussion but I think Andrew

00:58:18.980 Sullivan said something like there was a you

00:58:20.920 know a memo went around that we're going you

00:58:22.520 know we need to make race part of every

00:58:23.980 story so if you know if the New York Times

00:58:28.060 has this this dual telos you know this you

00:58:31.040 know that you know all the all the truth

00:58:32.740 that's fit to print or is it all the truth

00:58:35.340 that fits our narrative we print I mean those

00:58:37.080 are not the same you know that's incoherence and

00:58:39.900 that's basically what's happened in some of the

00:58:41.640 social sciences as well and so you have to

00:58:44.280 either have the whole institution committed to

00:58:46.840 this really really difficult thing which is

00:58:49.660 advancing towards truth disposing of falsehoods

00:58:53.820 using only imperfect flawed motivated individuals

00:58:59.360 as the units and creating a process that

00:59:02.680 nonetheless gets you closer to truth and

00:59:04.640 we've done it in universities we've done it in

00:59:08.340 juries in the court system the legal system and

00:59:10.840 we've done it in high quality journalism and

00:59:13.760 and now we need that truth and but we also need

00:59:17.860 the truth that unites us right I mean

00:59:20.540 what's the truth that unites us well I'm trying

00:59:24.280 to to to make sense of of all the arguments that

00:59:27.700 you're putting forward I mean one of the things

00:59:30.000 that's happening you pointed out is that we we're

00:59:33.460 factionalizing and each faction has its own

00:59:36.840 representation of reality right and back in the

00:59:39.760 heyday of journalism and it wasn't just journalism

00:59:42.520 because there was all sorts of central institutions

00:59:44.900 that people trusted fundamentally and so those

00:59:49.160 institutions were oriented towards the truth in

00:59:51.860 principle but they also united people and so now you

00:59:56.520 could say that one of the consequences of this

00:59:58.620 remarkable technology that's put us all online is that

01:00:01.980 and and this is part of what's undermining journalism

01:00:05.060 and that is everything has fragmented into a thousand

01:00:07.900 narratives or ten thousand narratives and they all find

01:00:10.460 their own community and so it it seems that the problem of

01:00:14.520 truth has two elements then what's the truth and how is it

01:00:17.340 that we share that across ourselves so that we can be

01:00:19.920 united as a country or a state or whatever level of community

01:00:23.540 you choose okay I would just be wary of saying the truth

01:00:26.480 that unites us as if we all need to believe one truth I would

01:00:29.720 rather say if there is a possibility of finding truth then

01:00:33.860 at least we can have our disagreements within some realm

01:00:36.820 of sanity where we might actually resolve problems or fix

01:00:39.580 problems or make these massive advances on social problems

01:00:42.400 once the ability to find any kind of truth goes away

01:00:46.040 then it's not that we we're you know we can't unite around

01:00:50.740 something so you know if you think about when 9-11 happened

01:00:54.120 within a week you know we pretty much there was common

01:00:57.300 agreement about what had happened planes were sent by al-qaeda

01:01:01.200 whenever we figured that out and there were conspiracy theories

01:01:03.740 that it was an inside job by israelis but those were fringe

01:01:06.640 freak theories nobody really believed them

01:01:08.400 and you know we came in america came together and supported a response

01:01:13.480 now of course we you know george w bush abused that and took us into

01:01:17.080 iraq on false premises we came apart but if 9-11 were to happen tomorrow

01:01:21.320 do you think that we would we would have a shared understanding of what

01:01:25.960 happened i don't and in fact it kind of did you know we had the pandemic a year

01:01:29.800 and a half ago and we could have been a way to bring

01:01:32.620 us together to solve this massive problem that we all faced

01:01:34.920 but we quit in america at least we quickly split into crazy factions

01:01:39.240 yeah well i should say i mean you know crazy conspiracies theories on the right

01:01:43.300 the left wasn't conspiracy theories but the left was the woke problem

01:01:47.220 where certain things you know um certain things couldn't be said

01:01:51.480 and uh you know and especially the the you know one of the worst things that the

01:01:56.480 that the institutions of that are tasked with creating knowledge

01:02:00.320 one of the worst things they did was they said no no no you can't get together at

01:02:05.200 church no no no you can't get together to trump rally

01:02:07.520 oh but black lives matter protest yes go ahead and so that you know so the right was

01:02:12.520 already so skeptical and once the epidemiological community did that

01:02:16.560 as a community they put out a statement boom no more trust in the establishment

01:02:21.160 and that has killed a lot of people because if not for that there would be a

01:02:25.160 lot less skepticism about vaccines i i completely do with with john that's one

01:02:29.960 of my favorite examples the other one of course being that the uh that if you

01:02:33.360 discuss the possibility that sars-cove-2 originated from a lab leak in

01:02:37.660 wuhan that shows that you're a racist you're a racist right right and so that was uh that

01:02:42.020 that was uh censored and inhibited until it just burst for burst out about a month

01:02:46.220 ago but well completely agreeing with with john that that the our institutions for

01:02:52.380 finding the truth are constantly need defense they go against a lot of features

01:02:56.900 of human nature uh and then i just want to caution against um i think that it was

01:03:02.940 that much better in the past i mean one of my favorite quotes is that uh the the

01:03:07.420 best explanation for the good old days is a bad memory and this includes by the way

01:03:11.680 the new york times and there is a sort of subversive book by ashley rinsburg came

01:03:16.200 out a couple of weeks ago called the gray lady winked going over the history of the

01:03:20.300 new york times coverage of world events which uh forget all the news it's fit to print they

01:03:26.780 downplayed the holodomar the terror famine in ukraine under stalin their berlin uh chief

01:03:34.120 during the 1930s was a nazi who constantly apologized for the nazi regime the coverage

01:03:40.860 of fidel castro in the 50s amplified the strength of the guerrilla movement the weakness of the

01:03:47.920 mode diem regime in south vietnam leading to the cia inspired coup may have been inflated by new york

01:03:53.940 times coverage there's actually a history of activism uh and um uh thank you for that i didn't know

01:04:00.880 that and here's another way of looking at it again i don't want to be uh to take on the optimist role

01:04:06.820 too thoroughly because i agree with john a lot has gone wrong in the last uh uh a few years

01:04:13.220 uh again the constant vulnerability of the institutions of liberal democracy and um uh truth

01:04:21.880 seeking um but um where was i going with this the um the best explanation is a bad memory

01:04:30.420 yes right um and the problem with an aphorism is that it makes you forget what the original point

01:04:39.100 was but it's a good aphorism but it's a good aphorism well we were talking about the new york

01:04:46.780 times and about the fact that it you know it's never been what it was and you you walk through

01:04:52.240 that and and the fragment okay now here it was okay and one one i don't want to say it's a note of hope

01:04:58.120 that is that it will inevitably get better but rather it's pointing a way to what we ought to do

01:05:03.880 if we want it to be to get better which we we may or may not succeed at right okay every new medium

01:05:09.840 opens up a kind of a wild west of apocrypha of a carnival of nonsense this happened with

01:05:16.540 the uh the printing press the printing press and with the um mass production of newspapers and pamphlets

01:05:24.540 and radio there was massive plagiarism newspapers in the 19th century reported the discoveries of

01:05:31.300 you know sea monsters and and uh miracles and revivals of the dead and all kinds of uh nonsense

01:05:39.160 and it took a while for it to settle into norms that would allow people got fed up with the nonsense

01:05:47.240 they did gravitate to the more reliable sources but it took a while for those norms and uh fact

01:05:54.200 checking mechanisms to be implemented and online uh we have seen the social media companies belatedly

01:06:01.120 try to keep people out of those uh positive feedback loops those those um uh rabbit holes and we've seen

01:06:07.760 and this is a point that that jonathan raush and i independently made it in our books that online

01:06:13.040 media can actually implement a a regime of uh a fact checking and truth seeking we see it in the

01:06:20.300 contrast between the social media like twitter and facebook without the likes and the retweets which

01:06:25.620 seem to bring out the worst and something like wikipedia which despite its early rough years you

01:06:31.580 know we all have to concede this is really really good it's better than the alternatives they do it because

01:06:36.900 their rules of engagement were different in a way that since it's an unconfounded it's a confounded

01:06:42.300 experiment we don't know what was the secret sauce but some of them were the principles of commitment

01:06:47.880 to objectivity viewpoint neutrality the mechanisms of uh peer correction under the um but not devolving

01:06:57.400 into flame wars although it does happen in the wikipedia top pages but somehow they have they managed

01:07:02.100 to land on a set of rules that that brought out the more rational side of us and the question is

01:07:08.280 how do we isolate what they did right and apply it elsewhere right well it's non-profit uh and it

01:07:15.040 actually brings people together for different viewpoints there's an article that came out two or three

01:07:19.180 years ago showing that articles about politics and social science that had uh political diversity

01:07:25.440 in the authors were rated as higher quality than those that had less so viewpoint diversity um is a

01:07:32.420 is rewarded is that's right it's it's one of the essential features for a species that is so

01:07:37.380 committed to confirmation bias and to finding whatever supports uh my side or what i've said

01:07:43.160 publicly um so yes wikipedia hit on it it used uh it found a way to harness viewpoint diversity to create

01:07:51.200 a better product and so yes i think we should put john stewart mill up on a pedestal and we should bow

01:07:56.440 down to him and we should have a new religion we'll call it millionism or millenarianism or no i don't know

01:08:01.860 what but something so i guess i guess i wonder if those um modifying technologies will be able to

01:08:11.900 emerge in in the new environment because things change so fast you know i don't know if we can

01:08:18.600 evolve corrective mechanisms faster than we evolve new disruptive mechanisms yeah so so we don't we have

01:08:26.520 no idea what to do with twitter for example and and and no idea what effect it has we don't have any

01:08:32.620 idea i don't think what it does to people's communication when you truncate it to 280 characters

01:08:38.100 like does that increase the probability of manifesting anger for example does it does anybody study that

01:08:44.400 oh yes there's a lot of research okay bad is bad is stronger than good as a general principle

01:08:48.660 there's a wonderful book by roy baumeister and john tierney and so bad spreads more than good

01:08:53.480 um and especially if if you strip away context and intent and everything else you're just asking

01:09:00.240 for trouble uh and so twitter is probably the worst form of communication ever devised if the goal is

01:09:06.460 to actually have conversations now it's great for certain things it's great for finding things to read

01:09:10.520 um but to call twitter a communication platform or a public square anything like that

01:09:16.320 uh while it serves that function it serves it about as badly as could be uh so um so i'm sure

01:09:23.500 you're what i sometimes say when i'm asked about the future here is i say i believe steve pinker is

01:09:28.840 right that in 50 or 100 years things will be better five or 10 probably worse or at least may well be

01:09:34.720 worse but yeah in the long run we're likely to figure this out

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01:16:14.580 okay so we're going to say goodbye to dr pinker at the moment thank you very much for agreeing to

01:16:22.200 talk with us today i appreciate that and uh best of luck with your new book hopefully we'll talk to

01:16:26.940 you again in the fall when it comes out very good to see you nice to see you john nice to see you jordan

01:16:31.100 bye so let let's start by talking a little bit about more about the righteous mind okay and i'd like

01:16:39.780 to know more about your conceptualization of well the conceptualization of religious instinct religious

01:16:47.100 impulse something like that it's like how do you how do you view that and why is it that you've been

01:16:52.020 asked to talk to uh gatherings of religious people for example yeah so uh so the story that i tell in the

01:17:00.940 righteous mind um is that we is that humans are products of multi-level selection which means that

01:17:08.920 for the most part if you know if you read richard dawkins for the most part it's selfish genes create

01:17:14.360 create their survival machines animals or plants and those survival machines compete with other

01:17:20.200 survival machines and that's what we all know sort of textbook darwinian evolution

01:17:23.660 uh but uh while i love dawkins writing i love the selfish gene uh he for some reason says that

01:17:32.760 um plants and animals are the vehicles that the selfish genes travel on but groups are not he just

01:17:39.660 says groups can't be he just rules that out if i remember correctly and uh for most species that works

01:17:45.320 great but for bees for example it obviously doesn't work for bees it's obvious that the unit isn't the

01:17:50.500 individual bee it's the hive where the the queen is the ovary and the argument that i make in the righteous

01:17:56.480 mind is that humans show signs of some group level selection that is we are mostly we're primates we're

01:18:04.920 like chimpanzees and bonobos in a lot of ways but we have this ability to lose ourselves in something

01:18:10.540 larger to become completely unselfish to sacrifice for the group that is unlike any other animal that is

01:18:17.200 not genetically 50 or more shared genes with all the other animals in its group and

01:18:24.420 so uh drawing on on research on uh you know early human origins and uh especially the period around

01:18:33.540 you know from like a million years ago to to 200 000 years ago um it appears that we did live in

01:18:40.580 groups that competed with other groups um for territory uh um over all sorts of things and that

01:18:46.840 often wiped out or killed other groups um and so i think there was some degree of of group level

01:18:53.340 selection we are we are everyone here on earth now is our genes are not a cross-section of the genes

01:19:01.220 that were on this earth 100 000 or 200 000 years ago um most groups left no trace and other groups

01:19:08.740 went on to spectacular success so the way you see this is not by having an argument about altruism which

01:19:15.160 is where the argument is usually done um steve pinker and i actually steve disagrees with me on this steve

01:19:20.340 uh doesn't think that group selection played any role but i think if you look at groupishness or

01:19:24.520 tribalism why are we so tribal why do we love to paint our faces and band together and drink together

01:19:31.320 and do all this stuff for sports why do we have these tribal responses and i talk about my response

01:19:37.700 on on 9 11 on september 11th i had this deep urge to display an american flag like where did that come

01:19:43.280 from it was almost like a jungian sort of like thing welling up from my collective unconscious it was weird

01:19:47.960 but i had a real urge to display an american flag but as a professor i couldn't really do that because

01:19:53.160 people would think i was a republican so i you know it's a solution i came up with it's one way of

01:19:58.240 marking yourself as not a terrorist is martin not a terrorist as to what fly a flag i mean if you

01:20:05.300 imagine that your group is attacked the first thing that's relevant is who's with you and who isn't

01:20:10.820 and i mean that was made public politically by bush right if you're not with us you're against us and

01:20:15.700 so that might be part of an atavistic attempt to say look guys i'm definitely on your side

01:20:21.320 i'm not trying to put it down yeah well okay but uh yeah but you're suggesting an individually

01:20:26.840 adaptive reason for flying a flag but you wouldn't need that if we didn't have the groupish tribal

01:20:31.620 thing of let's kill people who aren't going along with us so anyway to bring this back to religion

01:20:36.100 my point is that we evolved in this this dynamics of group versus group uh and so uh and here i follow

01:20:44.340 david sloan wilson uh you know in saying um you know conflict within a group you know conflict at

01:20:49.660 any level um brings about cooperation at the next level down and so we come together to compete to we

01:20:56.880 cooperate intensely in order to compete with other groups that would be a hallmark of a long period of

01:21:01.500 intergroup competition which shaped which genes have come down to us today so anyway we didn't evolve

01:21:08.500 for big gods we didn't evolve for you know for you know yahweh and and um and allah um we evolved for

01:21:17.240 you know little gods and sprites and and the the the god of this river and this tree uh and and we

01:21:25.880 evolved to worship our ancestors and we evolved just this really intense spirituality uh that manifests in a

01:21:32.820 magical world we have all of these beliefs that don't track reality but they do serve a dirkheimian

01:21:38.160 function that is they do serve i believe not to help us understand the world but to bond together

01:21:44.960 with others so that we can survive in this world in conflict and competition with other groups

01:21:49.860 that's the dirkheimian story and in the righteous mind i i i was so pleased that i could integrate two of

01:21:56.100 my my my heroes in the social sciences which are dirkheim and darwin they actually fit together

01:22:01.100 perfectly on the subject of multi-level selection and even on ideas of sacredness and and groups coming

01:22:06.460 together so that's my that's the approach i developed to religion the righteous mind i originally thought

01:22:12.940 i'd write about politics but the subtitle is why good people are divided by politics and religion because

01:22:18.500 they're largely the same thing psychologically so that idea of the sacred so i mean in order to

01:22:26.580 we might ask what are the preconditions for being able to live peacefully with other people

01:22:32.500 and it seems to me that well you if we're all law abiding for example then we all embody the body of

01:22:42.640 the law and so what that means is that we're imitating something we're all imitating the same thing

01:22:49.640 and that's what makes us the same that's why i commented earlier in our conversation that maybe

01:22:56.240 what unites people isn't so much belief as the pursuit of something like a shared ideal

01:23:00.440 yeah so yeah well okay well let me just develop that a little bit because you talked about what

01:23:06.120 was sacred and it it seems to me that there's an association between what's sacred and what

01:23:12.780 inspires awe does that seem reasonable yes absolutely yes okay do you think it's reasonable to presume

01:23:18.540 that the instinct for awe is the same as the instinct for imitation for mimicry i don't think they're

01:23:27.460 the same no i don't think the same at all okay let's go into that a little bit so so i'll tell you

01:23:32.200 why i think they're the same and you tell me why you think they're not if that's okay well please

01:23:35.600 when people well let me give you an example people can be possessed by a spirit at a football game

01:23:42.940 yeah and their teams are cooperating and competing in the way that you described so there's a tribal

01:23:49.980 element but overall they're immersed in cooperation because they're all playing soccer and then they're

01:23:55.760 competing to put a to hit a target fundamentally which is the goal of most sports events is to hit a

01:24:01.460 target okay so the teams organize themselves into hierarchies of talent etc essentially there's a star

01:24:10.340 perhaps the star makes a phenomenal athletic gesture and hits the target and the entire stadium stands

01:24:18.800 up and spontaneously right and because they're observing something that inspires awe and that awe

01:24:27.220 inspiring act is to hit the target and they're all in that stadium celebrating the act of hitting the

01:24:34.160 target now i started to figure this out when i looked into the root of the word sin because it's

01:24:39.660 hamartia it means to miss the target oh wow yes yeah wow is right wow is right and so the opposite of

01:24:47.340 that is to hit the target okay okay so you see in a stadium with that spontaneous manifestation of awe

01:24:54.440 the possession of the entire stadium often and it's almost entirely unconscious because they get up on

01:25:01.880 their feet before they think and it's an act of worship essentially for that prowess shown for that

01:25:09.220 demonstration of how to hit the mark and that's part of the imitative spirit i think it's part of

01:25:14.600 imitating what's competent and heroic okay so i disagree with that analysis because i'm a durkheimian i

01:25:21.780 just what would emile durkheim say about that is it that people are so amazed at the skill with which

01:25:27.180 that guy kicked a ball into a net i don't think so um sports events of the kind you describe you know

01:25:35.180 that never happens with soccer in the united states for us it's more football and sometimes basketball

01:25:38.960 but of the kind you described it's um the pleasure and anybody listening to this can probably think of

01:25:46.240 times when they either sung in a choir or played in a band or played on a sports team and you have that

01:25:52.500 feeling of really becoming one that is that is a i would say quasi mystical or mystical experience

01:25:59.400 it's a sort of a loss of self emerging into something larger yes that's my argument about

01:26:04.340 this higher and lower level the level of the sacred level of the profane

01:26:08.280 and durkheim describes those those are durkheimian terms he uses those terms we can briefly enter

01:26:13.860 the realm of the sacred and if you're going to go see a football game would you rather have an

01:26:19.840 excellent view of the game alone in a room with an excellent screen or maybe even just an excellent

01:26:24.940 window would you rather be part of the whole crowd that does the wave i mean think about the

01:26:29.900 wave no i agree with you spontaneously figured out how they could become a super organism yeah no no i'm

01:26:35.480 not disagreeing at all and i i do think it's look there's a collective element of that worship

01:26:40.800 that's exactly in keeping with what you're describing and it does unite people yes in the

01:26:46.400 imitation of a spirit in exactly the same way that they're united in a concert or when they're

01:26:52.460 playing in a band i think those are all manifestations of the same thing and so i'm not

01:26:56.620 saying that it's only individual by any stretch of the imagination because there'd be nothing that

01:27:00.700 would unite see in the stadium they're united around that right right okay so let's focus on

01:27:06.440 imitation here i guess the reason i disagreed with you is that imitation is such an important human

01:27:12.080 ability for learning the fact that we you know and here i draw from joe henrich and others uh their

01:27:18.140 approach to cultural evolution joe's book uh you know why humans cooperate and the weirdest people in

01:27:23.760 the world and um so uh human for humans the nature of the game is not who has the biggest strongest or

01:27:31.600 the biggest teeth it's who learns the most who learns the best and we have all this optimization for

01:27:37.200 learning fast um and imitation is a big part of that so we do imitation but we do selective

01:27:43.100 imitation and we figure who should i imitate so so that would be a sort of a very sort of a lower level

01:27:49.360 ubiquitous crucial human ability that we have has nothing to do with religion nothing to do with all

01:27:55.360 but then i think we can bring our accounts together by saying now then we also have this thing about

01:28:01.580 we're able to come together in larger groups to pursue common interests especially in competition

01:28:06.900 and as we do that we use our imitation abilities we draw on our imitation abilities and so religious

01:28:13.280 worship you know and well yeah it actually it's always puzzling me in judaism you you know you

01:28:17.400 dove and you you bow but it's not in sync so that one is i think a little different but a lot but uh you

01:28:22.620 know often you sing you sway in harmony um you you know you do what everyone else does and so uh that's

01:28:29.780 to atone oh oh the davening is to at one at one at one mint atonement oh at one mint yes absolutely

01:28:39.340 yes so let's go back to imitation so okay okay so look when children when a son acts out the a father

01:28:50.360 when he's playing house he doesn't imitate his father by which i mean you could observe the father

01:28:58.160 walking across the room and making certain motions and the son by no means precisely duplicates those

01:29:03.440 motions right what the son does is observe the father across a wide variety of contexts extract

01:29:10.520 out the gist and imitate the gist yeah okay so you made the claim that what we're imitating is the

01:29:19.140 capacity to learn but i would modify that and say no we we're imitating the capacity to explore

01:29:26.260 and there's a difference there well the difference is that learning is in some sense it has the

01:29:34.160 connotation of a kind of passivity whereas did you ever see that medieval drawing of the of the sky

01:29:40.460 uh all covered with stars and the man on the edge of the earth with his head poke poking through the

01:29:45.640 firmament does that bring a bell no an actual medieval drawing or a modern cartoon no no it's it's an

01:29:51.440 it's a medieval drawing it doesn't matter but it's to boldly go where no one has gone before

01:29:56.220 you know in the modern parlance well there's there's a narrative that drives that and that's

01:30:01.080 the thing that's imitated and and um i think all of those collective manifestations of immersement in

01:30:08.980 the sacred that you're describing are opportunities for people to collectively engage

01:30:14.540 in attention to and elevation of something like that wait so we certainly are an exploratory species

01:30:24.760 and just as you know when i was a kid if you know you put a you get a mouse or a gerbil as a pet you

01:30:30.680 put it into a cage it's going to explore so you know mammals are very explore many of them are very

01:30:35.500 explorative human children are too is that what you i'm sorry you're saying this is what religion is

01:30:40.740 some are related to our exploratory instincts what what do you mean yes that it's that it's a

01:30:45.020 manifestation of our attempt to abstract out what the essential element of that is so for example in

01:30:52.040 christianity i think the the faculty that's elevated to the highest degree is logos and of course that's

01:31:00.760 translated into logic by the greeks but that that isn't exactly all it means it means more like

01:31:06.960 exploratory communicative endeavor but also with a tremendous emphasis on the truth and i traced that

01:31:14.680 development back for example into egypt and into mesopotamia the egyptians worship the eye

01:31:20.420 horus's eye and that's the attentive eye it's not rationality precisely it's the ability to see what's

01:31:27.820 in front of you it's the opposite of willful blindness and the the egyptians characterized it as such

01:31:33.500 because the god of egyptian attention horus was the antidote to osiris and osiris was the blindness

01:31:41.120 of the state he was the state and the blindness of the state the egyptians had that all figured out

01:31:46.460 and in mesopotamia the highest god marduk he had eyes all the way around his head and he spoke magic

01:31:52.800 words and he was the victor of a battle between a whole sequence of gods competition between gods

01:31:58.980 that was likely the abstracted result of competition between tribes and their own

01:32:05.260 you know local religions because monotheism seemed to emerge like that imagine all these tribes with

01:32:10.680 their local gods they come together when they come together the gods fight so to speak and then over

01:32:17.400 some immense period of time they arrange themselves into something approximating a hierarchy and whatever

01:32:24.020 is the ultimate principle that the cultures assuming they didn't destroy each other derived starts to

01:32:31.480 take place so you see each of these local gods is an element of an ideal and as they struggle across

01:32:38.860 time the ideals arrange themselves according to whatever principle generates ideals and something

01:32:45.560 emerges at the top the question is what is it that always emerges at the top there's a pattern

01:32:52.480 and it's the thing that we imitate that's the crucial thing wait i'm sorry what emerges out of the top

01:32:58.360 give me an example the ideal well i okay i can give you an idea i'll give you an example okay

01:33:03.820 you tell me what you think about this because it's expressed in all sorts of ways because it can't be

01:33:07.900 articulated not fully okay so you see byzantine cathedrals the the dome is the sky okay the cathedral is

01:33:18.160 the cross right the center of the cross is the central point of being okay you look up at the sky

01:33:25.360 and there's a picture of christ as pantocrator as creator of the world okay what's the idea and he's

01:33:29.860 in gold there's a halo the halo is like the sun and gold is in is a noble metal right it's pure and

01:33:36.880 incorruptible so that ties into that disgust issue that that you've made so much of right the logos idea

01:33:44.220 is the idea that truthful speech brings about the best kind of reality it's something like that

01:33:50.420 and so that's elevated so you think well look you know we imitate you know we imitate the gist

01:33:58.740 well what is the gist extracted out over thousands of years

01:34:03.260 see when i look at religion from a purely psychological perspective let's say

01:34:08.440 and think about our continued discussion about what constitutes the human ideal it's something

01:34:14.700 personified it has to be because we can't imitate it otherwise that's the problem with abstract ideals

01:34:20.820 as as uh motivating they're not personified you know even when stephen talked about the civil

01:34:28.840 rights movement he had to mention john fk and and martin luther king right he had to bring the

01:34:33.960 personality into it yeah yeah so you think as we've organized our religions across time as we've

01:34:40.000 aggregated into groups and attempted to construct a monotheism we're trying to figure out what

01:34:45.580 principle should be elevated to the highest state yeah okay so so i think we we take it we're taking a

01:34:52.340 very different approach to religion uh i am a social functionalist i i i start by saying what's the

01:35:01.420 social function of this i don't think humans are very motivated to find the truth now this is not

01:35:07.240 this is my particular view um there's a saying attributed to robert zions a great social psychologist

01:35:13.780 that um a cognitive psychology is social psychology with all the interesting variables set to zero

01:35:21.280 so a lot of people try to use psychology to explain you know how people are trying to optimize their

01:35:27.560 information processing you know sure we do that if we're trying to bet on the stock market or if

01:35:32.340 we're trying to get from here to there but even then we we do all sorts of irrational things once

01:35:37.760 you bring in the social factors those tend in my mind to overwhelm any sort of truth seeking and once you

01:35:44.480 bring in religious uh thinking where so much is done that is so evidently counter to truth and many

01:35:52.720 people point out well the point of believing something hard to believe is a demonstration of

01:35:57.920 of your commitment yeah i've heard that i don't buy that argument yeah i don't know it's weak yeah i

01:36:02.700 don't know what to think about that particular argument well you're okay let me let me ask you this

01:36:06.800 so if i said i believed in you what would that mean well pragmatically it means you support me

01:36:15.960 you're there for me you think i'm on the right track i have faith in you yeah right so what that

01:36:23.340 would mean i think and it would mean that i uh of your own accord i would expect you to do the right

01:36:30.520 thing and i would rely on that and defend you and so the reason i'm bringing this up is because

01:36:37.240 that's one of the ways that people use the idea of belief

01:36:40.680 right it isn't we have this idea that to express a religious belief is to express accordance with a

01:36:48.520 set of facts like scientific facts but that is how it see no to see we're you talked about ancestor

01:36:56.740 worship okay we believe in something like the central animating spirit of mankind we that's the gist

01:37:05.900 that we're all imitating and that's what unites us we're united around that ideal

01:37:10.360 and you see that expressed in places that you described already when you're playing with a band

01:37:16.160 that's a remark i'd love to be able to do that i can't do that but i see people doing it

01:37:20.600 you can get a sense of that in the audience yeah you're united around something transcendent

01:37:26.140 it seems and you're all imitating right because you're all you've all got the beat

01:37:30.780 you're all imitating the music well i would just say you're it's not that you're imitating per se

01:37:36.800 it's that you're moving as one you're imitating music though as well as moving at one you're

01:37:43.480 well you are from the piagetian perspective because you're matching your body to the rhythms

01:37:48.140 right so you're you're so the mimicry is embodied and that's what unites you so you can say you're

01:37:54.900 united by the spirit of music that's fine but i think it does tap into that imitative capacity

01:38:00.560 because everyone does move as one yeah i i would agree whether you know i don't know enough about

01:38:05.680 mirror neurons to say whether those i don't know what the current state of research is on mirror

01:38:08.860 neurons but we certainly have this ability to match to match each other's movements uh and that is part

01:38:15.620 of imitation and that does get us in sync uh and you know some people say this is why you should go

01:38:21.260 for a walk if you're working out a conflict or a problem or you're negotiating because physically

01:38:25.600 moving in sync with the person tends to promote more agreement i'm you know i'd like to see that

01:38:30.160 validated i'm not positive that's a finding that holds up but but that makes a lot of sense to me

01:38:35.520 so uh i think we're you know we're both focusing on different aspects of of the religious experience

01:38:42.560 and i'm coming in as a social psychologist looking at its social effects and you're coming up as a

01:38:46.960 clinical psychologist but you're also not writing it off as like a superstitious equivalent to

01:38:51.800 rationality like you're trying to tie it to something that's oh we evolved to be oh we evolved

01:38:55.960 to be religious this is okay so that part of our nature okay so that's the first issue is okay so

01:39:00.900 you think that's a reasonable proposition all right so then the question is what exactly does

01:39:06.620 that signify so let me try running something else by you okay you're interested in processes of

01:39:12.580 natural selection now so i made the proposition a little earlier that

01:39:18.440 we are doing something like collective imitation of the ancestral spirit that's like that's what

01:39:25.800 ancestor worship is if unites a culture something like that you reflect your father he reflected his

01:39:31.640 father etc all the way back and so and the only way that we can be in agreement about something is if we

01:39:38.880 share a lot of our presuppositions i mean we can differ to some degree but we have to have

01:39:44.180 uh we have to have a shared personality to comprehend one another eo wilson said you know

01:39:51.280 if we could talk to ants we wouldn't have anything interesting to say to them yeah that's right that's

01:39:55.100 right right so you know our similarities and our differences make communication possible but the

01:40:00.340 similarity is something like well it's our participation in our shared culture even our shared language

01:40:06.180 yeah i don't know i think if if you if you are on a team with someone if you're on a boat that

01:40:12.040 almost capsizes and you and seven other passengers you don't speak any languages in common but yet you

01:40:17.200 struggle together um you know you'll be friendly forever especially if you do sort of speak each

01:40:23.360 other's language you can communicate a little so again that's okay i'm not i'm not trying to

01:40:28.080 localize it to a specific subculture okay well okay well i just meant that i just meant i'm not sure

01:40:33.880 we need common beliefs in order to feel that we're part of one i think we need to move together

01:40:40.680 face a common enemy together i just don't put as much stock in belief what do you what do you

01:40:47.000 think unites us if we face a common enemy together i think we evolved to have the ability

01:40:53.280 to go into team mode very quickly and this is why um teams and the army and other places

01:41:00.940 can do a really good job of suppressing racial animus because race doesn't matter when you're

01:41:07.200 on a team uh right okay so that's fine that's fine so let's take the example of a team that's

01:41:12.660 that's perfectly acceptable to me because teams can be of any size essentially yeah

01:41:16.880 i would say that there's a a central what would i say the team has a personality in a sense

01:41:27.520 that's fragmented and represented by each of the players on the team so there's a unity that the team

01:41:35.540 consists of that's represented in each of the players and that's what constitutes the the team

01:41:41.760 element of it okay so so when we talk about personality it's hard to say exactly what we

01:41:48.100 mean we mean something like an animating spirit a pattern of action a pattern of perception something

01:41:52.240 like that there's no reason to assume that can't be shared between people and i think that's the kind

01:41:58.180 of seizure that you're talking about when you see people collectively participate in something they

01:42:02.820 regard as sacred they're all could be okay that seemed that seems reasonable the question would

01:42:09.640 be then what what's the gist of that central uniting principle the reason i'm asking this in part

01:42:15.640 you'll you'll appreciate this i think there's a claim quite common at the moment that the central

01:42:21.800 animating principle of western culture is power oh yeah yeah okay it's a it's a popular claim

01:42:30.000 yep okay what's the right what's the appropriate counterclaim that there is no central animating

01:42:37.120 spirit or that that's not it that i face this a lot and um um i think the response is to say

01:42:46.860 sometimes power matters and there are those who believe that everything is sexuality and sometimes

01:42:52.860 sexuality matters and there are those who believe that everything is money and sometimes money matters

01:42:57.700 and sometimes self-esteem people are complicated pain sometimes joy and like sometimes jealousy right

01:43:04.500 exactly okay so that's people whose first response to everything is power structures power structures

01:43:09.420 power structures you know you kind of know what they think because it's uh it's yeah you might know

01:43:13.740 how they act too yeah yeah so um you know if you if you if you think that anything whether it be the

01:43:22.460 western tradition or or college is all about power um i mean that's just sad well it's also completely

01:43:31.080 i i've thought this through and then i thought about all the people that i've admired in my life who

01:43:37.140 were successful and so those would be people that i'd like to imitate or at least i respect and that

01:43:43.440 seems to be a reflection of something like you know a low level of awe they were admiration they were

01:43:49.440 driven by power that's right they were driven by competence and generosity that's right that's right

01:43:55.420 and there you go and so this is actually one of the hallmarks of of a religion is um people are

01:44:02.580 committed to something that's obviously not true on its face and the people are really committed to

01:44:07.400 this religion that everything is power this sort of you know michelle foucault religion

01:44:10.700 they even interpret family life as being about power you know that my relationships with my kids

01:44:17.380 is primarily about my power i mean that's just bizarre marriage that's yeah that's right because

01:44:23.340 i'm a man and my wife's a woman therefore i must be motivated to have power over my wife and i must

01:44:27.620 feel something in common with other men because we're all men we're all trying to maintain the power

01:44:31.400 structure i mean this is far wackier than saying there was this guy and he was killed and he came back to

01:44:36.780 life three days later i mean you know it's this is just a matter of faith and so the fact that it

01:44:42.460 is intruded so deeply into the academy now again not in most departments but in you know some of the

01:44:47.760 departments that you and i both know this is the religion everything's about power yeah well we don't

01:44:52.840 seem to have been able to put forward a very good counterclaim but i think it's as we're talking about

01:44:58.340 with steve the good counterclaim is something which you have to sort of reason through and

01:45:03.320 it's about process more than any particular person and we need equal treatment by the in front of the

01:45:08.880 law and you know we need all these things uh and it's not as inspiring oh yeah but there's another

01:45:14.620 problem with it too it's not like i don't have sympathy for that viewpoint and there's nothing wrong with

01:45:20.380 a reasoned argument but look whatever's at the bottom of the woke movement is critical of the

01:45:28.480 processes of reason themselves right because everything is white supremacy well everything

01:45:35.020 is up for grabs at least right right so it's a radical critique of enlightenment thinking it's

01:45:39.760 also an attempt to identify enlightenment thinking specifically with western european thinking which

01:45:44.740 i think is a great mistake but it doesn't matter i don't think that those it isn't obvious to me that

01:45:51.260 those merely rational responses are going to do the trick no in general not but something that i've

01:45:58.980 begun to think a lot about is the importance of specifying the institution or the domain before you

01:46:05.400 say anything else and so we can talk about will a rational argument persuade people and if we're talking

01:46:11.920 about like on planet earth you know or just you know out on the public square not your odds are not very

01:46:17.980 good and so the trick to having a good society is one in which there are domains within which people

01:46:24.420 have a set of be it professional norms or norms about how we do things and so the norms in a college

01:46:30.740 seminar class should be very different and much more generous and much more about building on each

01:46:36.120 other's arguments and and can critiques um than it is on twitter and part of what's changed part of why i

01:46:42.720 keep saying the world is so different after 2012 than it was before 2009 is that social media

01:46:49.180 knocked down all the walls between different domains uh and now the norms of the norm the the norms in

01:46:55.880 within the norms within which a reasoned discussion among people who have basic respect for each other

01:47:01.560 and are tied together at least as fellow students or fellow jury members or whatever uh when that goes away

01:47:08.180 and everything is just the public square well then yeah we're not really able to have um reasoned conversations

01:47:14.200 anymore so what do you think uh so you attribute what's happened since 2012 fundamentally to to

01:47:22.740 technological transformation is that is that the case yes there were a variety of trends that were building

01:47:27.860 already uh but those included technological changes like the emergence of cable tv in the 1980s

01:47:33.560 uh but between 2009 2012 that was when we passed a kind of a tipping point or a phase change i would

01:47:41.340 say uh in which everything got weird right after 2012 do you think it has anything to do with lack of

01:47:48.520 a shared vision for the future well it you know a liberal democracy doesn't need a shared vision and we

01:47:55.640 never really had a shared well i shouldn't say that there was an idea of what it was to be an american

01:48:00.640 there was and it wasn't held by everybody uh and obviously for a long time it excluded african americans

01:48:06.420 and and and um yeah and a fair bit of that was materialist progress right the instantiation of the

01:48:12.660 yeah exactly right that's right once you once you don't need somebody doing full-time laundry and and

01:48:18.740 and carrying water whatever you yeah material progress allows people to live as individuals

01:48:23.800 um but um let's see yes i i think the the phase change was um when we were connected to each other

01:48:33.840 in ways that bring out that that play on aspects of our psychology that are generally anti-social

01:48:40.860 and that uh inhibited both our ability to connect to people authentically and our ability to find truth

01:48:48.420 collectively i think we're worse at both of those and that helps explain why the more connected a

01:48:53.880 generation is the more depressed it is gen z is the most connected generation they're the most depressed

01:48:57.640 generation they're also the most lonely the more connected you are the lonelier you are because it's

01:49:02.980 not real connection is it also idiosyncratic in what way my connection network and yours aren't the

01:49:12.920 same and my connection network and no one else's are the same that yeah so you know what i mean

01:49:18.700 it's so atomizing yeah yeah so i think so so i believe that we are ultra social creatures we evolved

01:49:26.020 in groups in a sense we broke out of the hive in the you know 19th century 20th century with

01:49:32.380 prosperity we could live alone we have individualism and so while that's very good for certain things

01:49:38.260 and it certainly brings it makes it easier to give everybody rights but many of us yearn for

01:49:43.640 groups we we are we i think we are at our best we are at our happiest and we have well-constituted

01:49:49.600 groups and if you think about the times i ask my mba students think about a time in your work life

01:49:54.480 that was just the best like what was the best job the best time in your work so that's kind of why i

01:49:58.560 asked about shared vision it's like i guess one question is what is it that unites a group

01:50:04.600 you know what you can unite with someone else around a shared activity which is usually directed

01:50:11.200 to some sort of goal right so so there's there's there's an ideal there that that might be pulling

01:50:17.080 you on you certainly do that if you're participating in the sports team or something like that like

01:50:21.020 do do we unite around a purpose rather than beliefs so so here i draw on mike tomasello who's just a

01:50:31.140 brilliant psychologist who studied child development and chimpanzee and chimpanzee development

01:50:36.080 and he said he shows are the he the great human innovation i cover this in chapter nine of the

01:50:43.720 righteous mind um is shared intentionality so if you have two chimpanzees uh and um uh and there's like a

01:50:53.160 log and they could carry the log over to the wall and tilt it and climb out they're smart as

01:50:59.220 individuals they could do that but if it takes two to carry it they will never ever in a million years

01:51:03.440 do it because they don't they don't have the ability to say we are doing this thing together

01:51:07.840 right well by two or three kids do that yeah we signal that with our eyes exactly to a large degree

01:51:13.480 right and they're even evolved for that you can we have very uh legible visible whites so we can tell

01:51:19.460 where people are pointing their eyes exactly that's part of that ability to inhabit the same spirit

01:51:24.380 simultaneously that enables the kind of cooperation that you're describing that's right that's right

01:51:29.120 yeah and tomasello points that out that chimpanzees you can't see where they're looking because

01:51:33.380 everything is brown and so it's not why do we look at other people's eyes it's why do we broadcast why

01:51:38.160 do we give away this valuable information it's because it makes us a better partner for cooperation

01:51:41.900 you know yes it enables other people to see what we're up to too that's right and we're useful to

01:51:46.800 them or they're useful to us um so i think that oh and there's also this thing from tubian

01:51:52.380 cosmetes about um i forget they had a catchy name for it but it's it's like crises that you face

01:51:58.880 together you know if you're attacked by a neighboring group or if you fend off a you know a lion that act

01:52:05.540 of like your life is in danger but you and three others did it together you're now you're really

01:52:10.460 bonded that's how you get really close friendships and that i think is part of the reason why gen z is so

01:52:15.660 lonely um the rest of until the 1980s or 90s kids went out unsupervised and we all got into scrapes

01:52:23.900 and my best friends we all got you know a couple times we had to run away from the police a couple

01:52:28.580 times we you know somebody got hurt how are we going to get them back to their mom you have you go

01:52:33.760 through scrapes together that's what bonds you i don't think you need a shared belief i don't think

01:52:38.340 you need a shared vision i think you need shared activities where you are interdependent you rely on each

01:52:44.320 other and that's why the army works so well or at least it didn't through the vietnam war but they

01:52:48.980 really got serious about this about race issues uh in the 80s i think it was at any rate so i guess

01:52:54.960 you and i just we disagree i mean i'm sure you are thinking of cases that i'm not thinking of

01:52:58.540 where it's the shared vision that matters but as a social psychologist i think the shared vision

01:53:04.020 is not necessary it's really doing things together yeah yeah well i i don't i it's not like i

01:53:09.720 disagree with the idea of the necessity of doing things together that i'm i'm always uh what we're

01:53:16.380 fascinated by this idea of gist because we're so good at abstracting out the essence from things

01:53:22.400 you know and so you you said for example that maybe you catalyze a friendship in a crisis

01:53:28.040 yes and a crisis indicates what's important when push comes to shove so to speak that's right

01:53:34.060 right and so then you manifest what you self-sacrificing behavior in the face of danger

01:53:40.760 something like that well i would say it's not what's important it's who's important it shows you

01:53:45.560 who's important who's on your team right but who's important would be willing to do that yeah they put

01:53:50.800 themselves at risk for you yeah something like that so that's self-sacrificing behavior

01:53:55.520 yeah and it does that seem reasonable yeah it does it does uh and you know even in an office you know

01:54:02.120 my kids love the the office and it's about the dysfunctions of office life and i i did work in

01:54:07.520 an office for two years in between undergrad and grad school i was a computer programmer for the

01:54:11.080 government uh and we had a really bad boss and though you know and i i'm still bonded to my my

01:54:18.160 co-workers we suffered together we you know intrigued and plotted together you know we did things

01:54:23.420 together and we were very diverse ethnically and somewhat politically but we all went through this

01:54:29.060 thing together and worked together so back to the righteous mind how did your work on did your work

01:54:36.400 on disgust lead you in that direction yes it did it was the breakthrough because um when i was a

01:54:42.980 first year grad student beginning to study moral psychology it was all about laurence kohlberg and

01:54:47.160 jean piaget and it was very rational and was about how kids beliefs about justice and fairness

01:54:52.260 change as they develop and it was a little bit dry and dull and it wasn't until i took a cultural

01:54:58.360 psychology class with alan fisk who's a brilliant cultural anthropologist and psychologist and he had

01:55:04.400 us read ethnographies you know full-length treatments of cultures from around the world and

01:55:10.400 and it was there that i saw these patterns these repeated patterns around menstruation food taboos

01:55:17.000 you know orders yeah that's right there are um and so that's what really showed me this as i said

01:55:25.020 it's like a jungian view like there's something in our minds that is coming out all over the world

01:55:29.960 you know culture can't be just you know we're not a blank slate i wish steve was still here

01:55:34.020 we're not blank slates cultures can't just teach you you know from each according to uh his ability

01:55:39.520 to each according to his need like you can't teach that to people that's the way we are in a family

01:55:43.380 but you can't make a whole society believe that because there are constraints and it was studying

01:55:47.540 disgust purity pollution and then disgust with paul rosin who happened to be at the university of

01:55:53.480 pennsylvania uh where i was a graduate student it was really studying disgust and sanctity and purity

01:55:59.740 and religious practice around that you know why is the body so important in religious practice except

01:56:05.280 in modern protestantism um and so that's what got me to look at this much more irrational stuff to

01:56:11.840 think about evolution in a certain way and that led me to multi-level selection so yeah if not for

01:56:17.200 disgust i probably would have just been somebody studying relatively dry aspects of moral psychology

01:56:23.020 about reasoning and fairness right that takes you down into the emotional and the instinctual level

01:56:28.180 exactly that's right that's right disgust is the yeah and there's a big debate in um you know in

01:56:34.120 moral psychology um there's a very it's a very active exciting field but there are people who say well

01:56:39.100 no it's all about harm everything's ultimately about harm and everything else is indirectly harm

01:56:43.600 there others say no no it's all about fairness everything is fairness uh and i am a an anti-parsimonist

01:56:50.620 that is um i do not believe in the pursuit of parsimony i believe that problem is is the terms that

01:56:57.760 that everything gets reduced to start to expand what do you mean well if you say everything is about

01:57:04.220 harm then you have to redefine harm so that it's right you have multiple kinds of harm exactly exactly

01:57:09.200 exactly so it it does it does seem to be a a mug's game in some sense and it enables you to have one

01:57:16.420 answer for everything which is rarely helpful yeah so um i was reading friends de wall recently and he's

01:57:24.640 studied disgust quite in i didn't realize that disgust did manifest itself in other animals so clearly

01:57:30.420 well it's it's controversial there are there are some hints of it in some primates that i've heard

01:57:34.060 of but it's i don't think any other animal shows contagion the way we do but tell me his if he has

01:57:38.780 an example well he thinks dogs show disgust to citrus fruits which are poisonous to them no no no

01:57:44.080 well they'll do it to the smell too yeah but it's just distaste no this is so paul one of the things i

01:57:49.700 got from paul rosin who's one of the world's experts on food and eating the psychology of food and

01:57:53.840 eating is of course animals evolve to seek out certain sense you know sensory experiences that

01:58:00.360 guide them to their food so if you're a koala bear if it smells like eucalyptus you're done

01:58:04.500 uh but if you're a dog um you're involved to eat meat and and you know when you're a kid like you think

01:58:11.020 well grapes are so delicious i love grapes you know find it why won't you why don't you like this grape

01:58:15.840 you won't eat a grape um and so that's just distaste and so what rosin what i learned from working

01:58:21.620 with paul rosin is distaste is very common you're reacting to the sensory properties of the food

01:58:26.220 so that's not so interesting what's interesting is that something that elicits a negative reaction

01:58:32.200 touches something else will you then avoid that something else so he's tracked that in chimps

01:58:38.780 oh contagion tell me how did how does he show contagion well he tracked one chimp who found a dead rat

01:58:45.760 and used it to torture other chimps with okay so she would place the dead rat which was in rough

01:58:53.120 shape on another chimp possibly sleeping the chimp would wake up be horrified and then rush off to

01:58:59.660 clean that's really funny wow a chimp practical joke that is so funny because my my college roommate

01:59:07.040 and i did something kind of like that in college he had a snake and he had dead rats in the room to feed

01:59:12.080 the snake and we actually did something very much like that this is a riot now does that show

01:59:16.420 contagion that they needed to wash off uh you know maybe yeah yeah well he does he has other uh other

01:59:24.220 accounts in the book as well mama's last mama's last hug it's called is that his is that a book of

01:59:29.880 his i don't know yes yes mama's last hug it's relatively recent one yeah yeah well i was very

01:59:35.300 influential in my thinking yeah i loved you all so yeah me too well and and i'm so interested in your

01:59:40.080 work on disgust and so it was interesting to me because i thought it was a relatively human emotion

01:59:45.260 but he makes a pretty strong case that it's more but but as with so much about chimps you can say

01:59:50.740 do they have culture well you know there's this behavior here that was observed once or 10 times

01:59:56.260 you know that what you're telling me now is the first case i've ever heard that looks like maybe it

02:00:00.500 was so with so much about chimps do they have it well almost a little bit and sometimes you know so

02:00:06.300 you know there's not bright lines but there are some sort of somewhat yeah well i guess with disgust

02:00:13.140 you'd think that it was sufficiently uh embodied visceral so that it might have fairly pronounced

02:00:22.800 equivalents in in species that are closely related to us i do wonder about its relationship with

02:00:29.900 conscientiousness which seems to be more yeah a more specifically human trait perhaps maybe

02:00:36.220 you see it in sled dogs i don't know yeah no i do think uh so you know maybe you can tell me

02:00:41.740 about freud's anal triad whether there's any truth to that but at least if you if if you think that

02:00:46.800 human personalities like the master dimension is sort of are you more set towards like approach

02:00:52.660 explore mode or are you more set to finding threats and and defend mode and that's a trait that

02:00:58.580 varies and people who are more set to defend mode are going to be more anxious but also more

02:01:04.960 disgust sensitive uh there's you know there's a small correlation with politics they tend to be

02:01:09.280 a little more conservative um and conservatives certainly are more conscientious um especially

02:01:14.960 orderly they're especially more orderly and that seems to be more tightly associated with disgust

02:01:20.420 sensitivity yep that's right as as opposed to straight say straight neuroticism yeah um that's right

02:01:26.580 what do you think randy thornhill's work on on on uh parasite prevalence and conservatism which seems

02:01:33.800 to be logically associated at least to some degree with your work on disgust yeah it is i mean i know

02:01:40.140 the the hypothesis uh i think it makes a lot of sense i i don't i'm not so cross nat so basically the

02:01:46.400 idea that uh cultures that evolved with high parasite loads other people are much more dangerous you're much

02:01:53.960 more uh uh you know careful about outsiders coming in they bring disease and so conservatives tend to be

02:02:01.000 more um you know in actually a nice metaphor in the brexit context are we drawbridge up people or are we

02:02:08.000 drawbridge down and the brexiters were more drawbridge up you know here you know here's our our island

02:02:14.180 and the more universalist you know uh remainers were more drawbridge down and over and over again you see

02:02:20.340 um the you know the progressive mindset is much more john lennon imagine no borders just everybody

02:02:26.480 living in peace uh and the conservative might be the fundamental political difference i i thought

02:02:32.900 this because you know the two traits that predict political belief seem to be openness yeah predicting

02:02:38.400 liberalism and the kind of things that you're talking about yeah and and orderliness and so if you put

02:02:44.700 you think why do those co-vary to predict political belief and it seems to me to be something very much

02:02:49.960 like what you just described with relationship to borders is are you on the side of free flow

02:02:55.800 because you see the advantages or are you afraid of that because of perhaps because of pathogen

02:03:00.960 contagion yeah that's right and so here's a very useful word it once you hear it it just explains

02:03:07.820 it really it improves things here there's been a debate for a while about whether conservatives are

02:03:13.900 authoritarian whether authoritarianism is exclusively the province of the right a long search for left-wing

02:03:19.000 authoritarianism i think there is such a thing you you know you think so too actually right you've

02:03:23.180 produced some research on that but i i heard an interview with john hibbing who's a political

02:03:27.560 science political scientist who's done a lot of research on the sort of the physiology or brain basis or

02:03:31.920 uh you know uh the um the psychology of of politics and he says the word we use shouldn't be

02:03:39.140 authoritarian it's not primarily authoritarian it's primarily securitarian people who are really

02:03:45.420 focused on security they want us to be safe they see threats over the borders if that's if that's

02:03:51.940 the way your mind is more then you will end up more attracted to parties right of center whereas if

02:03:57.620 you're less concerned about security then you go more left of center and boy is this playing out in

02:04:02.380 new york city right now because uh you know we had a horrible crime wave that went on for decades in

02:04:07.460 this city it ended in the 90s and it seems to be picking back up as of two or three months ago i mean

02:04:11.960 it increased during the pandemic but the last couple months my neighborhood's gotten really

02:04:16.200 much more dangerous um uh you know more crimes uh um i'm sorry to hear that because new york was so

02:04:23.920 good for so long yeah my wife and kids could walk around it you know at 11 o'clock at midnight they

02:04:28.920 could walk around you know millennials were taking the subway out to brooklyn at four in the morning

02:04:33.600 uh and you know i hope that'll come back but in the last couple months it looks like it's back to the

02:04:37.820 70s anyway the reason i bring it up is just to say that in we're having a mayor's uh a mayoral

02:04:44.500 election the primary is going on right now and election day is tomorrow and back when it seemed

02:04:49.540 like everything was great we're going to come out of this you know one set of candidates was was

02:04:53.460 attractive uh but now it's you know oh really you said defund the police no way like no we need the

02:04:58.900 police we actually really really need the police so there's you know as soon as there's a real threat

02:05:04.020 many people not just conservatives but many people suddenly say wait a sec security is really

02:05:08.360 important and do you think that that this is particularly germane question to you

02:05:12.840 we tried to look for heightened levels of anxiety and conservatives in my lab for a long time

02:05:19.260 we never found them not really right but that's right yeah but it's the disgust issue that's so

02:05:24.560 germane to me it's like when you say security do you mean control of what's contemptible and

02:05:31.520 disgusting or do you mean what's threatening those are not the same thing yeah i think following

02:05:37.440 hibbing i think it's what's threatening no because you're right the neuroticism if anything is more

02:05:42.480 common on the left um uh conservatives are happier by some measures not by all um there are a variety of

02:05:51.300 psychological traits that do seem to indicate greater psychological adjustment among conservatives um

02:05:57.420 uh and including happiness uh and so i would not right it'd be weird to say the conservatives are

02:06:04.420 more anxious but yet they do seem to be more threat sensitive would you agree with that i don't know

02:06:10.620 like i i wrote a whole book sort of theorizing that the purpose of belief was to bring anxiety under

02:06:17.020 control and uncertainty and there's something to that but disgust has has you know occupied more and

02:06:24.380 more of my imagination with regards to political belief partly because of your work um partly

02:06:30.740 because of randy thornhill's partly because there is an association between orderliness and

02:06:36.320 conservatism and orderliness and disgust sensitivity and that's it's not associated with neuroticism

02:06:42.240 which is so strange right because the negative emotions clump together you're right so you'd expect

02:06:47.960 really it's it's a killer piece of evidence if conservatives are more threat sensitive

02:06:53.680 they should show higher levels of neuroticism on some measures and they just don't and so you could

02:07:00.020 you can see in lab situations there are some stimuli they seem to overreact to but it isn't obvious that

02:07:06.240 it's associated with the canonical negative emotions but disgust is a whole and yeah you know after i

02:07:12.620 familiarized myself with your work i read hitler's table talk which is a collection yeah what is that

02:07:20.080 it's a collection of his spontaneous utterances over dinner time collected by his secretaries across

02:07:25.860 about four years oh fascinating yes it's fascinating and what's really fascinating is how much of it's

02:07:31.860 about disgust oh wow god it's just unbelievable because his propaganda process cockroaches rats you bet

02:07:41.080 well it's so much disgust you may know this and you may not that zyklon was originally used as an

02:07:47.240 insecticide in factories they cleaned up the factories that the nazis cleaned up the factories

02:07:53.060 first then the mental hospitals then they broadened out and it was zyklon b i believe to begin with and

02:08:01.060 then zyklon a and so there is a disgust story there that's unbelievably strong and the thing about

02:08:06.600 things that are disgusting if you're afraid of them you want to get away from them

02:08:10.360 yeah if they're disgusting you want to destroy them well you yeah you want to withdraw from them

02:08:18.420 yes yes you want to withdraw and you want especially burning yeah yes especially burning is the most

02:08:23.640 satisfying way to dispose of things because that yeah it killed right and it's not like the nazis

02:08:27.800 weren't enamored of of the symbolism of fire burning that's right that's right yeah so i think maybe

02:08:33.280 what we can say here is that let's bring in openness to experience because if we say that openness

02:08:38.660 to experience is consistently the largest trait associated with politics as far as i know

02:08:43.080 and so people are high on openness to experience tend to be be drawn to progressive or left-wing

02:08:48.840 politics and that has a very clear negative relationship with disgust that i think is the

02:08:53.980 strongest relationship we'd ever paul ross and i ever found now you would think that that would also

02:08:58.700 have some relation to anxiety because as you said the negative emotions all clump together

02:09:02.200 but in this case they don't so maybe maybe the neuroticism link is a red herring maybe what we

02:09:07.660 should be focusing on is the openness to experience so i'm assuming that hitler was not very open to

02:09:12.640 new experience that he did not seek out a great variety of foods and curious about it's very complicated

02:09:18.520 because he was extraordinarily interested in aesthetic issues he had the floor plans of most major buildings

02:09:25.920 memorized and he was planning to transform the centers of most of the cities that he conquered

02:09:30.660 into artistic citadels but but remember this kind of art divided that's right he divided art into

02:09:36.740 acceptable and and pathological right so he was an artist with very conservative tastes in what was

02:09:43.300 beautiful yeah so i think he was open and hyper orderly hyper orderly because he there's other

02:09:50.600 examples of his orderliness and disgust sensitivity but are there other examples four times a day wait a

02:09:55.720 second he yeah so you you've convinced me that he's interested in aesthetics but do you think he

02:10:00.180 was open in a general way well he wanted to go to art school he tried to get in three times tried to

02:10:06.240 make a living as a watercolorist yeah yeah so look i'm not trying to make a case that hitler was an

02:10:11.300 artistic genius not i'm not saying that at all he was a very complicated person but i think the real

02:10:17.360 tilt for him was was maybe the maybe even the contradiction between openness and extreme orderliness like he was

02:10:23.700 also a worshiper of willpower which is associated with orderliness right so he could stand like

02:10:29.380 this would stand like this for hours at a time and he prided himself on that and he bathed four

02:10:34.080 times a day he's also concerned he's also very much concerned with what he ate yeah you know in an

02:10:40.200 orderly sort of way right and contain contamination sensitivity exactly and the way he saw jews in german

02:10:46.120 society is contaminating rats cockroaches yeah that is very common in genocides that's the same

02:10:52.440 language in rwanda pure blood all the time yeah yeah yeah and so there's that purity element that

02:10:57.420 you've made so much of as well that's just it's just a it's an obsessive theme and if you if you look

02:11:02.980 at his table talk you can see that because it's spontaneous utterances you know and so i was looking

02:11:07.900 for fear words anxiety words it's like they're rare but disgust words man fascinating that's just it's

02:11:16.840 just there all the time and disgust it's you know you think about our society we go out of our way to

02:11:23.100 keep fearful things at bay but we really go out of our way to keep disgusting things away yeah that's

02:11:29.480 the hallmark of civilization and the civilizing process right and when people travel in you know

02:11:33.980 what used to be called third world countries that was one of the striking things is just the degree to

02:11:38.320 which dead bodies or death and excrement and other things are visible parts of life and boy have we done a

02:11:44.180 good job of hiding them in yes that's that's just not there at all at all so yeah right so we don't

02:11:49.440 even know how sensitive we are to disgust anymore because almost all the elicitors have been have

02:11:53.980 been removed that's right that's right so okay well it's 5 30 over here i have to head home for dinner

02:12:00.360 uh but it's always a pleasure to talk with you jordan i uh i was gonna say i never know what we're

02:12:06.100 going to talk about but i always assume it'll have something to do with politics psychology and

02:12:09.420 disgust i i appreciate the fact that you found my disgust work and i uh useful and i found your

02:12:14.940 your writings about jung and religion uh and certainly your what you've written and said about

02:12:20.780 the current state of our universities uh to be incredibly useful too so uh thanks very much for

02:12:26.180 agreeing to talk to me again and good luck with your forthcoming book hopefully we'll get a chance

02:12:30.000 to talk again like talk to you more about imitation and awe because those are those are crucial okay

02:12:35.140 crucially you know so let's do this imitation awe and psychedelics that's something that we we talked

02:12:39.480 about earlier uh so some you know next time we get together uh let's talk about uh imitation awe

02:12:45.680 psychedelic experiences and how they change people and how they for for me at least opened me up

02:12:54.340 to unmoralizing things to to stepping outside of moral matrices and just trying to understand complex

02:13:03.060 systems yeah maybe it'd be a good idea to pull in one of the psychedelic researchers for that talk

02:13:08.060 perfect yes that would be much better than just you and me talking about it yeah let's yeah yeah that'd

02:13:11.820 be good yeah all right all right okay maybe next fall or next winter yeah okay okay really good

02:13:16.920 talking to you and glad to see you're looking so good and all that thank you you too bye-bye

02:13:21.020 in today's chaotic world many of us are searching for a way to aim higher and find spiritual peace

02:13:45.920 but here's the thing prayer the most common tool we have isn't just about saying whatever comes to

02:13:51.160 mind it's a skill that needs to be developed that's where hallow comes in as the number one prayer

02:13:56.780 and meditation app hallow is launching an exceptional new series called how to pray imagine learning how

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02:14:14.320 average guided meditation it's a comprehensive two-week journey into the heart of prayer led by

02:14:19.660 some of the most respected spiritual leaders of our time from guests including bishop robert baron

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02:14:30.040 you'll discover prayer techniques that have stood the test of time while equipping yourself with the

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The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast - October 25, 2021

198. Enlightenment and the Righteous Mind ｜ Steven Pinker and Jonathan Haidt

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