The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast - 202. Meaning, Awe and Conceptualization of God

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00:00:26.020 Hey everyone, real quick before you skip, I want to talk to you about something serious and important.

00:00:33.020 Dr. Jordan Peterson has created a new series that could be a lifeline for those battling depression and anxiety.

00:00:39.300 We know how isolating and overwhelming these conditions can be,

00:00:42.680 and we wanted to take a moment to reach out to those listening who may be struggling.

00:00:46.640 With decades of experience helping patients,

00:00:49.160 Dr. Peterson offers a unique understanding of why you might be feeling this way in his new series.

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00:01:08.340 Go to Daily Wire Plus now and start watching Dr. Jordan B. Peterson on depression and anxiety.

00:01:14.000 Let this be the first step towards the brighter future you deserve.

00:01:17.600 Welcome to the Jordan B. Peterson podcast, season four, episode 59.

00:01:25.460 I'm Michaela Peterson.

00:01:26.840 This is part two of Meaning, Awe, and Conceptualization of God,

00:01:31.220 where we'll continue to investigate the religious realm.

00:01:34.780 Part one was released last week.

00:01:36.500 Check it out if you haven't already.

00:01:38.420 This episode is comprised of multiple season four episodes from the podcast,

00:01:42.920 specifically Jonathan Pajot, Randall Wallace, Ian McGilchrist, Bishop Barron, Stephen Fry, and John Verveke.

00:01:50.320 This is a good one.

00:01:51.980 We've paired this compilation with some exciting upcoming episodes in the form of next Monday's podcast,

00:01:57.720 which is a conversation between Jordan, Jonathan, Pajot, Bishop Barron, and John Verveke,

00:02:03.340 where they discuss many of the same concepts you'll hear about today,

00:02:06.200 as well as the role of psychedelics in religious tradition.

00:02:09.740 This Saturday, tomorrow, we're also releasing a talk given by Jonathan Pajot to the Montreal Young Society.

00:02:17.820 Jordan and Tammy, my parents, were both so impressed by this talk

00:02:21.880 that Jordan decided to add this conversation to the official canon of his biblical series.

00:02:27.360 Stay tuned for part three of Meaning, Awe, and the Conceptualization of God next Thursday.

00:02:33.160 That will be the final part of this series.

00:02:35.380 Quick Peterson update.

00:02:36.540 We're in Cambridge and London in the UK.

00:02:40.460 It is so wonderful to be with family and not have to worry about health.

00:02:44.920 Thank God for that.

00:02:46.680 I can't believe that nightmare is over.

00:02:49.740 I hope you enjoy this episode and have a wonderful weekend.

00:02:52.640 Where does your insistence that values are part of the structure of being,

00:03:12.640 like, where does that find its limit?

00:03:14.620 Because the classic limit of that is something like,

00:03:19.640 in fact, the definition of the utmost place of value, in some sense,

00:03:24.840 is almost indistinguishable from the claim that there is a God.

00:03:28.760 And so...

00:03:29.620 A God is not the same as an engineering God.

00:03:32.680 And I take enormous pains in the book.

00:03:35.000 It costs me more than anything I've ever written

00:03:36.740 to write the chapter called The Sense of the Sacred,

00:03:39.580 in which I try to help people to a place where they can understand

00:03:45.960 why people use this extraordinarily difficult word, God.

00:03:51.140 You know, it's not a satisfactory term,

00:03:53.560 but it's the term we have to have to name an aspect of our experience

00:03:57.980 that, if we don't name it, disappears from our lives.

00:04:01.460 And that's not to say that there isn't something there

00:04:04.460 that merits whatever we mean when we say divine.

00:04:08.780 I mean, we haven't defined what we mean by divine.

00:04:12.420 And we're back in the nets of language.

00:04:14.380 We're trapped in the nets of language, as Schelling said.

00:04:18.260 But what I'm suggesting is that, as Whitehead suggested,

00:04:23.420 and come on, Whitehead was also the co-author with Russell

00:04:26.980 of the Principia Mathematica.

00:04:28.700 He wasn't a fantasist.

00:04:32.120 He had this, I think, incredibly deep idea

00:04:34.800 that whatever one likes to call the divinity, God, whatever,

00:04:40.080 is the thing that the cosmos has relation with.

00:04:46.000 Relation is at the core of being.

00:04:48.660 I even argue that relation is prior to the relata,

00:04:52.700 prior to the things that are related.

00:04:54.600 That sounds nonsense.

00:04:55.540 How can you relate?

00:04:56.280 How can you have a relation if there isn't anything yet to relate?

00:04:59.600 But there's a wonderful image in Indian mythology called Indra's Net,

00:05:04.320 which covers the universe.

00:05:06.600 And in it, the idea is that the filaments of the net exist before the net,

00:05:11.860 before the crossing points, which are the things we see.

00:05:14.380 And on those crossing points, there are little gems

00:05:17.420 which reflect every other gem in the net.

00:05:20.040 And that would take a very long time to unpack,

00:05:22.580 but perhaps it can set things going in people's minds.

00:05:25.400 But the idea I have...

00:05:26.960 Adjust you to the right hemisphere.

00:05:29.760 ...is that relation is prior to anything at all, really.

00:05:34.460 And that, therefore, whatever you mean by God

00:05:37.360 and whatever we mean by the cosmos

00:05:39.580 are in some sort of dynamic relation,

00:05:42.900 which is an evolving one,

00:05:44.360 in which the outcome is excitingly not known.

00:05:47.100 If it were known, it would all be some horrible,

00:05:50.280 possibly sadistic play

00:05:53.280 by an almighty, all-knowing God.

00:05:57.160 I mean, look, I'm going to be talking to Rowan Williams shortly,

00:06:00.740 but I don't want to go into all that I mean by that.

00:06:04.480 I don't think God is omniscient and omnipotent,

00:06:06.920 but I don't think he's not either.

00:06:09.280 Just in the same way, I don't think he's green,

00:06:11.060 and I don't think he's not green.

00:06:12.180 I think the terms are wrong,

00:06:14.200 but we can go there if we want them later or another day.

00:06:17.480 But the thing, what I'm really saying

00:06:19.920 is that God is discovering,

00:06:24.540 becoming unfulfilling whatever God is

00:06:27.120 through the relationship,

00:06:29.580 which classically in most religions is described as love,

00:06:33.000 which is, after all, just like a form of gravity

00:06:36.020 in the world of life and emotion

00:06:38.900 rather than just in the world of the so-called inanimate.

00:06:44.600 So, therefore, we are coming into being,

00:06:50.060 God is coming into being,

00:06:51.500 and we're necessary to one another's coming into being.

00:06:54.020 It's not that God does a bit to us,

00:06:55.420 and then we do a bit back to God.

00:06:57.200 It's like, I've read a very good book,

00:06:59.140 I keep mentioning it,

00:07:00.060 by a young microbiologist in America

00:07:01.920 called Kriti Sharma, called Interdependence.

00:07:04.500 And she argues, very importantly,

00:07:08.020 that it's not just that,

00:07:10.260 certainly it's not just that an animal

00:07:12.760 or an organism molds its environment,

00:07:15.740 nor is it just good enough to recognize

00:07:18.280 that while an animal affects and shapes its environment,

00:07:23.420 the environment shapes the animal or the organism.

00:07:26.980 But that this is not a, you know,

00:07:29.880 turn-by-turn process.

00:07:31.900 It's not that the animal shapes the environment,

00:07:34.080 which then, in its turn, shapes the animal.

00:07:37.640 It's an entirely simultaneous process

00:07:40.640 of coming into being, of co-creation, if you like.

00:07:43.680 Now, this idea of simultaneous coming into being

00:07:46.180 is an ancient one,

00:07:47.440 but I think it's a very deep one philosophically

00:07:49.640 and a very important one.

00:07:51.600 So that accounts for your objection

00:07:53.300 to the idea of the omniscient determining God.

00:07:56.320 Absolutely, absolutely, because the God has,

00:08:01.480 God would have no creation.

00:08:03.740 Creation is not really just the unfolding

00:08:05.660 of something that's already there.

00:08:07.780 The idea of negative theology is you fundamentally,

00:08:13.320 I wonder if this is like Jung's circumambulation,

00:08:16.500 you fundamentally understand God

00:08:18.340 by saying what God is not,

00:08:20.260 but not, of course, randomly, right?

00:08:22.620 What you're trying to do is...

00:08:24.180 That's sort of like the God of the gaps.

00:08:26.440 Well, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no.

00:08:29.260 Oh, sorry.

00:08:30.040 No, no, that's...

00:08:30.640 Don't apologize.

00:08:31.760 We're friends talking.

00:08:34.480 Well, I don't want to derail the conversation, so...

00:08:38.180 It's been like this, and it's been wonderful.

00:08:40.800 It feels to me like doing Tai Chi.

00:08:42.120 No, it's more that...

00:08:45.580 It's more of a recognition of...

00:08:48.120 Not of the God of the gaps, but of a recognition

00:08:51.600 how our categorical scheme is always inadequate.

00:08:55.080 So, for example, is God an object?

00:08:56.960 Well, no, that's wrong.

00:08:58.280 Is God a subject, like the way we are?

00:09:00.640 No, that's wrong, too.

00:09:01.940 That's inadequate.

00:09:02.400 Right, so God is...

00:09:03.520 Well, God escapes our categorical...

00:09:05.500 Right.

00:09:05.860 God is, by definition, in some sense,

00:09:07.860 what escapes our categories.

00:09:09.520 Because God is supposed to be the grounding

00:09:11.320 of the intelligibility that makes

00:09:13.100 the categorical scheme possible.

00:09:14.960 At least that's the...

00:09:15.660 God is also present within the category scheme

00:09:18.620 if it's set up properly, so...

00:09:19.940 Right, so the point about negative theology...

00:09:22.100 That's why it's not just the God of the gaps.

00:09:23.760 The point is to see...

00:09:24.360 I see, I see, I see.

00:09:25.480 ...is to see within the category...

00:09:27.020 That it's present within the categories,

00:09:28.720 but it's not capturable within the categories.

00:09:31.420 That's what you're trying to do with...

00:09:32.120 Right, the category...

00:09:32.840 Yeah, yes, the reality supersedes the categories,

00:09:35.100 which is why you're not supposed to make idols.

00:09:37.700 Why you're not supposed to make representations of God.

00:09:39.880 But you can make icons,

00:09:41.120 to summon Jonathan back into the conversation one more time.

00:09:43.900 You can make icons, right?

00:09:45.400 And you've got John Luke Merrion's distinction

00:09:47.040 between the idol and the icon.

00:09:48.700 And what's the distinction?

00:09:50.260 The distinction is...

00:09:51.080 The icon does not capture God.

00:09:52.920 Right, that's exactly it.

00:09:54.100 That's an artwork.

00:09:54.960 So an artwork is an icon.

00:09:56.580 Exactly.

00:09:57.200 And propaganda is an idol.

00:09:59.020 Yes.

00:09:59.960 I would agree with both of those statements.

00:10:02.080 Well, isn't that something?

00:10:03.260 Because they're really, in some sense,

00:10:05.240 far astray, aren't they?

00:10:06.340 But they do map.

00:10:07.320 And so how cool is that?

00:10:08.720 So art is the icon.

00:10:11.480 How cool.

00:10:12.720 And propaganda is the idol.

00:10:14.320 Exactly, man.

00:10:15.620 You know, and I had these paintings in my house,

00:10:17.600 and they were melds of the icon and the idol.

00:10:20.360 Right?

00:10:20.820 Because there's all this socialist realism.

00:10:22.500 I have 200 pieces of socialist realism,

00:10:24.520 watching the icon and the idol fight with each other.

00:10:28.420 And the problem is, they are...

00:10:30.540 And I want to get the etymology of this word.

00:10:33.620 They, at a superficial level of similarity,

00:10:36.340 they can easily be confused.

00:10:38.360 They can easily be confused.

00:10:40.460 Okay.

00:10:40.840 Yes.

00:10:41.440 Well, I would say they will inevitably be confused

00:10:45.020 in the absence of God.

00:10:47.560 Well, and I...

00:10:48.600 Because propaganda...

00:10:50.240 Like, this is something I've been working on, too, John,

00:10:52.500 is that, you know,

00:10:53.620 we make religious the next thing on the hierarchy

00:10:58.140 if we don't give to what is religious its proper place.

00:11:01.180 And I think the new atheists are beginning to realize this.

00:11:03.600 Because the amount of the world's evil

00:11:05.840 that's a consequence of our voluntary moral insufficiencies

00:11:08.960 is indeterminate.

00:11:10.720 You know, so you might say, hypothetically speaking,

00:11:13.600 that as part of God's creation,

00:11:15.900 we actually have important work to do.

00:11:18.260 And if we shirk it, the consequences are real.

00:11:21.480 And you might say,

00:11:22.420 well, that's just an apology for God.

00:11:24.000 And perhaps that's the case.

00:11:25.280 And perhaps there's no God at all.

00:11:26.780 And so what the hell are we talking about?

00:11:28.380 But I do think it's an important issue.

00:11:31.760 I mean, your life is characterized

00:11:33.640 by a stellar level of constant productive creativity.

00:11:39.120 That's you.

00:11:40.820 And you're offering that to the world.

00:11:42.680 And that seems necessary.

00:11:44.260 And maybe it's because the problems are real and important.

00:11:47.340 And the role we have to play ethically

00:11:49.840 is of paramount importance, truly.

00:11:53.700 Why else would we torture ourselves with conscience?

00:11:56.180 And I would say that's the flowering

00:11:58.880 of the religious instinct within you.

00:12:00.600 Yeah.

00:12:01.760 Well, you could describe it as that.

00:12:04.020 But then, you know, there are phrases...

00:12:05.340 I mean, you used a phrase earlier

00:12:06.580 that I wanted to say, whoa, hang on.

00:12:08.600 I'm not sure I know what that means.

00:12:09.880 A higher mode of existence.

00:12:12.560 I don't see...

00:12:14.440 I remember having this argument

00:12:15.440 with John Cleese, of all people, some years ago.

00:12:18.060 He was a great lover of the Tibetan Book of the Dead

00:12:22.760 and Gilbran and people like that.

00:12:25.020 And I've always found them slightly hard to take.

00:12:28.680 And he talked about a...

00:12:30.240 I think the phrase he used was a higher level of consciousness.

00:12:32.880 And I said, I don't...

00:12:34.540 And again, this is my empiricist thing.

00:12:36.300 It sounds cynical and sceptical.

00:12:38.340 It's not meant to be.

00:12:39.500 But what level?

00:12:40.780 Who's a...

00:12:41.420 Describe a level.

00:12:43.540 What is a higher mode?

00:12:45.120 Why higher?

00:12:46.060 What's higher than another?

00:12:47.340 Are you saying it in terms of animals?

00:12:50.440 It's a view.

00:12:51.580 It's an old-fashioned Huxleyan view of evolution

00:12:54.300 that most modern...

00:12:55.980 Richard Dawkins, for example,

00:12:57.180 most modern evolutionary scientists and so on,

00:12:59.880 ethologists, would deprecate to say

00:13:02.660 that there is a higher level of being,

00:13:05.180 a higher mode of consciousness.

00:13:07.320 Is it just like saying, well, you're better educated,

00:13:09.800 you've read more, you know more?

00:13:11.340 Is it you've somehow been enlightened?

00:13:13.620 A fair clown's effect, as the Germans would say,

00:13:16.040 which is not necessarily intellectual,

00:13:19.740 but is somehow spiritual?

00:13:22.220 If so, show me an example of it.

00:13:26.760 Show me someone who has a higher mode of existence

00:13:29.500 than I do.

00:13:31.400 I can answer that, I think, to some degree.

00:13:34.140 Three ways.

00:13:35.160 Three ways.

00:13:36.560 One, that higher mode of existence

00:13:39.120 is what your conscience tortures you for not attaining.

00:13:41.820 Right.

00:13:42.560 Okay.

00:13:43.320 Okay.

00:13:43.640 I think what my conscience tortures me for not attaining

00:13:46.400 is that I was rude to someone yesterday

00:13:47.980 and I shouldn't have been.

00:13:49.460 Right, but it's the shouldn't part of it.

00:13:51.500 Yes, the obligation.

00:13:52.700 It's the T...

00:13:53.460 Exactly.

00:13:54.180 David Hume, the problem of ought.

00:13:56.600 Yeah.

00:13:56.940 Well, and then you think about how it manifests itself.

00:14:00.620 Hmm.

00:14:01.320 You don't...

00:14:02.080 This is why Nietzsche was wrong.

00:14:04.340 You cannot create your own values.

00:14:07.000 Right.

00:14:07.700 The values impose themselves on you

00:14:09.520 independent of your will.

00:14:10.800 Well, now, maybe you participate...

00:14:13.160 Well, that's what your conscience does,

00:14:14.580 and good luck trying to control it.

00:14:16.660 This is very anti-Nietzsche, isn't it?

00:14:19.180 Well, I'm a great admirer of Nietzsche.

00:14:21.020 I know you are.

00:14:21.600 That's why I made the point.

00:14:23.940 Very opposite to his philosophy.

00:14:26.080 Well, so Jung embarked on a lengthy critique of Nietzsche,

00:14:30.520 and it's part of his work that isn't well known, I would say.

00:14:33.480 But we'll leave that be, except to say that the psychoanalysts,

00:14:39.300 starting with Freud, well, not really, but popularized by Freud

00:14:43.180 and systematized, showed that we weren't masters

00:14:46.200 in our own psychological house.

00:14:48.160 Right.

00:14:48.880 There were autonomous entities, and those would be the Greek gods,

00:14:52.700 to some degree, that operated within us, and we were...

00:14:55.880 Which is Julian Jaynes' point, exactly, yes.

00:14:58.340 Yes, yes, I have my problems with Jaynes,

00:15:01.900 but as an overarching idea, there's interest in it.

00:15:05.240 Okay, so there are things happening with us and to us

00:15:07.940 in the moral domain that we cannot control.

00:15:10.440 Yeah.

00:15:11.120 And that stunned me when I first learned it as a proposition.

00:15:15.160 It's, oh, yes, look at that.

00:15:16.640 Here's one.

00:15:18.200 What are you interested in?

00:15:20.400 Yeah.

00:15:20.760 Well, that grips you, okay?

00:15:23.300 Number two, what does your conscience bother you about?

00:15:26.160 Okay, that's, you're inadequate by your own standards.

00:15:30.380 Now, what adequate would mean, that's a different question,

00:15:33.920 but it's defined negatively by conscience.

00:15:36.640 Yes.

00:15:37.380 And then, better, there's one that I said I would lay out three.

00:15:42.220 You can look at Jean Piaget's work on developmental psychology.

00:15:45.380 On the development of the subject, yes.

00:15:47.920 He was a genetic epistemologist.

00:15:49.500 Yes, with a Swiss science psychology.

00:15:51.500 This is what he wanted to do.

00:15:52.640 He wanted to unite science and religion.

00:15:54.480 That was his goal, and he wanted to look at the empirical development

00:15:58.140 of values, and what he concluded, at least in part,

00:16:01.260 was that a moral stance that's better than a previous moral stance

00:16:05.500 does all the things that the previous moral stance does

00:16:08.780 plus something else.

00:16:10.420 Yes, yes.

00:16:11.500 And you can say the same thing as a scientific theory.

00:16:14.240 No, I remember I had a great, I loved Piaget,

00:16:16.980 and his observations were so empirical, of course.

00:16:21.780 Yes, absolutely.

00:16:23.060 Of the development of the child and the, not quite the theory of mind,

00:16:27.840 that wasn't his thing, but similar developments and signposts

00:16:32.720 where people become aware of self.

00:16:35.260 Okay, so now Piaget looked specifically at the development of morality,

00:16:39.720 and he was one of the first people to emphasize the importance of games.

00:16:44.860 Yeah.

00:16:45.260 And what he showed was that at two years old, let's say,

00:16:49.200 a child can only play a game with him or herself.

00:16:51.980 Yeah.

00:16:52.160 But at three, both children can identify and aim and then share it

00:16:57.080 in a fictional world, and so that's partly pretend play,

00:17:00.020 and the beginnings of drama, and then cooperate and compete

00:17:03.300 within that domain.

00:17:04.580 Yeah.

00:17:05.200 And then what happens, and the game theorists have shown this,

00:17:08.200 is that games, out of games, morality emerges.

00:17:13.400 Yeah.

00:17:14.040 So I'll give you an example, and this is a crucial example.

00:17:16.960 So if you pair juvenile rats together, the males, they have to play.

00:17:22.680 They have to rough and tumble play because their prefrontal cortexes

00:17:25.220 don't develop properly if they don't.

00:17:27.500 Anyways, they have to play.

00:17:29.020 You pair a big rat and a little rat, teenage rats together,

00:17:32.120 and the big rat will stomp the little rat.

00:17:34.320 Yeah.

00:17:35.160 First encounter.

00:17:36.860 So then you say power determines hierarchy.

00:17:40.400 Yeah.

00:17:40.760 Okay, but then you pair the rats multiple times, like 50.

00:17:44.960 Yeah.

00:17:46.140 Then if the big rat doesn't let the little rat win 30% of the time,

00:17:50.100 the little rat will stop inviting him to play.

00:17:53.660 And so you get an emergent reciprocity, even at the level of the rat.

00:17:58.000 One of the constitutive aspects of how reality unfolds and how it appears to us

00:18:05.180 is something like attention, right?

00:18:08.900 It's something, there's a hierarchy of manifestation,

00:18:11.840 because everything that appears to us in the world has an infinite amount of details, right?

00:18:18.020 It has an indefinite amount of ways that you could describe it,

00:18:21.280 that you could angle it by which you could analyze it.

00:18:24.220 And so, nonetheless, the world appears to us through these hierarchies of meaning, right?

00:18:31.160 I always kind of use the example of a cup or a chair.

00:18:34.000 Like a chair is just a multitude of things.

00:18:36.580 It's a multitude of parts.

00:18:37.680 How is it that we can say that it's one thing?

00:18:40.920 There's a capacity we have to attend,

00:18:43.280 and this capacity we have to attend is something like a co-creation of the world.

00:18:48.640 And so the world actually exists.

00:18:50.420 Well, a chair is a good example, because, you know, you can try to define it objectively,

00:18:54.260 but you end up with beanbags and stumps, and they don't have anything in common.

00:18:59.260 Well, they're both made of matter, you know, for whatever that's worth.

00:19:02.140 It's a pretty trivial level of commonality, but you can sit on them.

00:19:06.940 Yeah, there's a mode of being which defines them.

00:19:09.840 Well, and that's so strange.

00:19:11.320 So many of our object perceptions are projected modes of being.

00:19:15.620 And so even the objective world is ineluctably contaminated with its utility,

00:19:21.000 and therefore with morality.

00:19:23.520 Exactly.

00:19:24.180 And so I think that that's the key.

00:19:25.740 The key is that once you understand that the world manifests itself through attention,

00:19:30.520 and that consciousness has a place to play in actually the way in which the world reveals itself.

00:19:36.320 And so you can try to posit a world outside of that first person perspective,

00:19:41.020 but it's kind of diluted.

00:19:42.540 It's a diluted activity.

00:19:44.540 Well, it's also very, very difficult, because you don't know what to make of something like time,

00:19:51.700 because time has an ineradicably subjective element,

00:19:55.980 and duration, which is different than time.

00:19:58.320 I mean, time is kind of like the average rate at which things change,

00:20:02.380 but duration is something like the felt sense of that time.

00:20:06.460 And if you take away the subjectivity, it isn't obvious what to do with time,

00:20:10.680 and I think physicists stumble over this all the time, so to speak.

00:20:14.540 So, and this is something that this intermingling of value and fact was something that I never thought I made much traction with,

00:20:22.620 with Harris, with Sam Harris.

00:20:24.720 He didn't seem to me to be willing to admit how saturated the world of fact is inevitably with value.

00:20:34.100 And I actually think he's denying the science at that point, because for everything I know about perceptual psychology,

00:20:42.760 there's a great book called Vision as a...

00:20:47.100 Oh, God, now I can't remember the name of the books.

00:20:50.100 That's memory trouble.

00:20:51.260 I'll remember it.

00:20:52.420 No worries.

00:20:53.800 The idea is that if that is true,

00:20:57.480 then there are certain things which come out of that.

00:21:01.340 There are certain necessary things down the road from that insight,

00:21:06.140 which is that attention plays a part in the way the world lays itself out.

00:21:11.300 And that one of them...

00:21:12.680 And one of them is that the stuff that the world is made of is partly something like attention,

00:21:17.740 something like consciousness, and that has a pattern.

00:21:19.900 And that pattern is the same pattern as stories.

00:21:23.880 It just...

00:21:24.480 It doesn't lay itself out exactly the same,

00:21:26.820 but things exist with a pattern which is similar to stories.

00:21:30.560 They have identities, they have centers, they have margins, they have exceptions.

00:21:35.520 And that's how stories lay themselves out.

00:21:38.100 So a story happens in time, how an identity, let's say, is broken down and then reconstructed.

00:21:47.360 You could say that that's basically the story of every story,

00:21:50.580 how something breaks down and is reconstructed.

00:21:53.480 And so that is a way for us to perceive the identity of things.

00:21:57.720 And so if the world is made of this, then it's actually our world, our secular world,

00:22:07.960 which is a strange aberration on how reality used to exist for every culture in every time

00:22:15.380 from the beginning of time, which is to take that for granted.

00:22:18.440 To take for granted that something that they didn't call it consciousness,

00:22:22.620 but intelligence and attention are part of how the world lays itself out.

00:22:27.720 And it lays itself out in modes of being.

00:22:30.240 And one of the things that comes out of it is not only that, but like you said,

00:22:35.640 it's not only that you have ideas, but it's that ideas have you.

00:22:40.540 Or that it's not only that you engage in modes of being, it's that modes of being have you.

00:22:46.140 And that recognition means that the first level of attention to that looks something like worship.

00:22:59.000 It looks like celebration.

00:23:02.440 It looks like the thing which makes the, let's say, the National Hockey League so successful

00:23:10.640 has more to do with celebration than just a bunch of guys on skates on a piece of ice,

00:23:17.720 you know, throwing a puck around.

00:23:19.380 There's a celebration of the purpose of that thing.

00:23:22.320 And it manifests itself through a bunch of stuff,

00:23:25.420 which one is like a trophy that stands in the middle on the top of a bunch of,

00:23:29.580 on a stand and everybody looks at it and kisses it.

00:23:32.100 And, and, and so there's this, this veneration, you know, and there's mascots and the hockey

00:23:37.180 league example is very interesting because it's a, it's a, it's a social game and no,

00:23:43.600 all the players are, they're attempting to aim, right?

00:23:49.740 Right.

00:23:50.160 So there's a symbolic element to that sin is misplaced aim.

00:23:54.460 And so you hit the, you hit the small space in the net block, though it may be by your enemies

00:24:01.760 and everyone celebrates that.

00:24:04.460 And you do that in cooperation with other people and in competition with other people.

00:24:09.040 And if you do it properly, not only are you a brilliant player from a technical perspective,

00:24:13.400 but you're also a great sport.

00:24:15.520 And so there's an ethic there and a morality.

00:24:18.000 And, and this is why people are so upset when hockey players or any other pro athlete

00:24:22.380 does something immoral in their personal life is because it violates the, the ethic that

00:24:28.080 that's being celebrated as a consequence of this great game.

00:24:32.400 Yeah.

00:24:32.980 And then, right.

00:24:33.480 So you can see that, that the striving for an ideal mode of being, the religious striving

00:24:38.140 for an ideal mode of being is central to what it is that makes hockey, um, addictive.

00:24:44.340 That's right.

00:24:45.520 Yeah.

00:24:46.360 Necessarily.

00:24:47.380 And, and so.

00:24:48.700 God, I saw that in pro wrestling.

00:24:50.440 There's a great documentary, uh, Bret Hart called Hitman Hart.

00:24:55.680 It's one of the best documentaries I've ever seen.

00:24:58.160 And it portrays pro wrestling as a stark religious battle between the forces of good and evil.

00:25:06.400 And Bret Hart, who at one point was the most famous Canadian in the world, was overwhelmed

00:25:10.940 by his, the archetypal force of his representation as the good guy.

00:25:16.940 It's a great documentary, Hitman Hart.

00:25:20.520 And, and it shows you how, how, you know, pro wrestling is, is, it's not the world's most

00:25:25.620 intellectual activity to say the least.

00:25:28.380 And people can easily be dismissive of it.

00:25:30.560 But one of the things I loved about the documentary was that it attempted to understand from within

00:25:36.600 what was compelling about what was being portrayed.

00:25:39.780 And it was a religious drama.

00:25:41.340 It just, it was shocking and brilliant.

00:25:44.900 And so, so that is, that is actually, there is a, there's an objective part of that, that

00:25:51.440 there's an objective way in which these patterns kind of come together and manifest, let's say,

00:25:56.560 higher and higher versions of this drama.

00:25:59.420 And so the sports drama has a certain level, but it's, it's limited to a certain extent because

00:26:05.960 it still happens as a confrontation, let's say, between two irreducible sides.

00:26:11.640 And so what happens in something like the story of Christ is that that gets taken into one person.

00:26:18.480 And so all the opposites become the king and the, the, the, the, the criminal, the, you know,

00:26:26.980 the highest, even in the image of the cross, you have this image.

00:26:30.120 And as Christ is being crucified, they're putting a sign above his head saying that he's the king.

00:26:35.000 As Christ is being beaten, they're giving to him a crown.

00:26:38.920 And so Christ joins together all the opposites.

00:26:42.760 And so in his, in his story, you see, if you, if you're attentive to these patterns,

00:26:49.120 you see the highest form of this pattern being played out.

00:26:53.500 And one of the aspects that has to be there for it to be the most revealed or highest form

00:26:59.120 is that it also has to include the world of manifestation.

00:27:03.800 I mean, it can't just be a story.

00:27:05.420 It has to be connected to the world.

00:27:07.380 So that's why Christians insist on the, the, the fact that Jesus is not just a story,

00:27:12.880 that he's an incarnated man, that he was incarnated.

00:27:16.220 But I don't believe their insistence.

00:27:18.680 I don't believe, well, this is, this is because I don't, it isn't obvious to me.

00:27:24.800 And I think maybe I derived this criticism from Nietzsche, but.

00:27:31.560 You know, people have asked me whether or not I believe in God and I've answered in various ways.

00:27:37.380 If no, but I'm afraid he probably exists, that's, that's one answer.

00:27:42.940 Yeah.

00:27:43.500 No, but I'm terrified he might exist.

00:27:45.500 That, that would be truthful answer to some degree, or that I act as if God exists,

00:27:50.840 which I think is, I do my best to do that.

00:27:53.660 But then there's a real stumbling block there because.

00:27:59.920 There's no limit to what would happen if you acted like God existed.

00:28:04.000 Yeah.

00:28:04.440 You know what I mean?

00:28:05.560 Because I believe that, that acting that out fully.

00:28:14.760 I mean, maybe it's not reasonable to say to believers,

00:28:19.140 you aren't sufficiently transformed for me to believe that you believe in God,

00:28:23.500 or that you believe the story that you're telling me.

00:28:25.560 You're not, you're not a sufficient, you're not,

00:28:28.320 the way you live isn't sufficient testament to the truth.

00:28:30.680 And people would certainly say that, let's say about the Catholic church,

00:28:33.700 or at least the way that it's been portrayed is that with all the sexual corruption,

00:28:37.420 for example, it's like, really, really, you believe that the son of God,

00:28:42.200 that Jesus Christ was the son of God.

00:28:45.140 And yet you act that way.

00:28:47.040 And I'm supposed to buy your belief.

00:28:48.960 And it seems to me that the church is actually quite guilty on that account,

00:28:56.620 because the attempts to clean up the mess have been rather half-hearted in my estimation.

00:29:03.520 And so I don't think people, people don't manifest, Christians don't manifest this,

00:29:08.560 and I'm including myself, I suppose, in that description,

00:29:12.760 perhaps don't manifest the transformation of attitude that would enable,

00:29:22.840 that enables the outside observer to easily conclude that they believe.

00:29:28.200 Yeah.

00:29:29.100 Now, the way to deal with that, or the way to understand that,

00:29:33.480 is that they do, but they do in a hierarchy.

00:29:38.160 There's a hierarchy of manifestation of the transformation that God offers the world.

00:29:43.180 And we kind of live in that hierarchy.

00:29:45.120 And those above us hold us together, you would say.

00:29:48.760 And so in the church, there's a testimony of the saints.

00:29:51.620 There are stories.

00:29:52.920 There are hundreds and hundreds of stories of people

00:29:55.380 who live that out in their particular context

00:29:58.440 to the limit of what it's possible to live it.

00:30:01.800 And even today, there are saints, living saints,

00:30:06.780 who, for example, in the Orthodox tradition,

00:30:08.960 we have this idea of what they call it, the gift of tears,

00:30:12.620 or the joyful sorrow of people who live in prayer with weeping, constant weeping.

00:30:20.460 And it's this kind of strange mix of joy and sadness,

00:30:24.880 which kind of overwhelmed them.

00:30:26.600 And they live in that joy and sadness nonstop.

00:30:28.900 And they pray, you know, without end.

00:30:31.220 And so that exists.

00:30:33.000 But then we, in this, that's one of the reasons why,

00:30:36.680 that's kind of one of the reasons why,

00:30:40.800 when I talk about this idea of attention,

00:30:42.820 like it manifests itself in the church as well,

00:30:45.660 is that you often say, and I understand it,

00:30:49.780 when you say something like, you know,

00:30:51.580 I act as if God exists, or, you know,

00:30:53.860 I'm afraid to say that God exists.

00:30:56.060 And I think it's because you think,

00:30:59.800 or you tend to think that the moral weight, like of that,

00:31:04.000 is so strong that you would crumble under it,

00:31:07.940 that you would just be crushed under it.

00:31:10.220 And I think that...

00:31:11.400 I can't believe that.

00:31:12.580 And I think that that's...

00:31:13.780 I think that I understand that.

00:31:16.980 But the first thing that...

00:31:22.020 To act as if God exists, let's say it this way.

00:31:24.560 To act as if God exists,

00:31:26.320 the first thing that it asks of you is not a moral action.

00:31:31.040 The first thing that it asks of you is attention.

00:31:35.080 That's why to act as if God exists is, first of all, to worship.

00:31:41.700 Like, that's...

00:31:42.420 And I know people are going to hear this.

00:31:44.380 Well, then I have a terrible problem with that, too, at the moment,

00:31:48.500 because I'm in so much pain.

00:31:50.160 Like, one of the things that...

00:31:51.460 One of these theologians discussed the idea of...

00:31:55.300 And sorry, I won't let you get back to your point,

00:31:57.980 but he discussed the idea of the yoke of Christ being light,

00:32:01.560 and that there was joy in it.

00:32:02.940 And there's a paradox there, obviously,

00:32:08.020 because it's also a take up your cross and follow me sort of thing.

00:32:12.620 But the fact that I've been living in constant pain

00:32:19.720 makes the idea of joy seem cruel, I would say.

00:32:26.500 And so...

00:32:27.200 And I have no idea how to reconcile myself to that.

00:32:29.840 I mean, I've reconciled myself to that by staying alive, despite it.

00:32:34.920 You know, although...

00:32:38.520 By staying alive, despite it.

00:32:40.600 But there's very little worship.

00:32:42.120 And it doesn't mean I'm not appreciative of what I have.

00:32:45.940 I'm...

00:32:46.380 Not only am I appreciative of what I have,

00:32:48.480 I do everything I can to remind myself of it all the time.

00:32:52.000 And so does my wife.

00:32:52.900 I mean, she's changed quite a bit as a consequence of her struggle with cancer.

00:32:56.800 You know, it's become much more overtly religious, I would say.

00:33:00.220 And, you know, we say grace before our meal in the evening,

00:33:04.800 and it's a very serious enterprise.

00:33:06.500 And it always centers around gratitude, you know,

00:33:10.140 for, well, for the ridiculous volume of blessings

00:33:18.060 that have been showered down upon us

00:33:20.520 at a volume that's really quite incomprehensible.

00:33:24.500 But despite that, well, let...

00:33:31.140 Despite that, I'm struggling with this

00:33:33.380 because I don't know how to reconcile myself

00:33:35.900 to the fact of constant pain.

00:33:39.660 Yeah.

00:33:40.720 And I don't...

00:33:41.640 I feel that it's unjust,

00:33:43.380 which is halfway to being resentful,

00:33:45.640 which is not a good outcome.

00:33:47.220 No, I agree.

00:33:51.260 And I can't speak...

00:33:52.540 Like, I can't...

00:33:53.140 I don't know how to speak to that

00:33:54.500 because I don't necessarily don't have that experience.

00:33:57.400 You know, I don't...

00:33:58.080 I don't have that...

00:34:00.280 I don't live with constant pain.

00:34:01.720 And so I don't know what that would do to me.

00:34:04.220 Probably one of the reasons why it might ruin me, you know.

00:34:08.140 And so it's very difficult to answer that.

00:34:13.120 I think that the answer...

00:34:14.600 Like, the answer has been the cross.

00:34:16.520 Like, that's been the answer.

00:34:17.820 It's an easy...

00:34:18.340 Maybe it may be easy for me to just say it that way.

00:34:21.700 But that's always been the answer of Christianity,

00:34:26.180 which is that God went to the cross

00:34:31.400 and that God went down into death

00:34:33.520 and plunged down into death.

00:34:35.540 And there are...

00:34:36.180 That there are mysteries hidden.

00:34:38.680 And there...

00:34:39.260 Maybe they're very well hidden,

00:34:40.460 but there are mysteries hidden in that depth.

00:34:44.600 But it's not...

00:34:49.700 I don't think it's my job to moralize to you

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00:37:41.520 So we talked about

00:37:46.700 the narrative

00:37:47.420 and the object of touching

00:37:48.680 and so I wanted to

00:37:49.700 touch on that again

00:37:50.680 is that like

00:37:51.460 I understand

00:37:54.280 C.S. Lewis's argument

00:37:55.580 and you know

00:37:55.980 I'm even inclined

00:37:56.940 from time to time

00:37:58.600 to think

00:37:59.040 well I've got the choice

00:38:00.000 between believing

00:38:00.720 two impossible things.

00:38:02.660 I can either believe

00:38:03.820 that

00:38:04.160 the world is constituted

00:38:06.700 so that God

00:38:07.500 took on flesh

00:38:08.340 and was crucified

00:38:09.100 and died

00:38:10.520 and rose

00:38:10.960 three days later

00:38:11.820 or I can believe

00:38:13.100 that human beings

00:38:14.840 invented this

00:38:15.740 unbelievably preposterous

00:38:17.760 story

00:38:18.200 that stretched

00:38:18.940 into every

00:38:19.840 atom of

00:38:21.080 culture

00:38:22.480 and

00:38:23.800 it isn't

00:38:25.640 obvious to me

00:38:26.580 that the second

00:38:27.480 hypothesis

00:38:28.840 is any easier

00:38:29.680 to believe

00:38:30.100 than the first

00:38:30.640 because the more

00:38:31.320 you investigate

00:38:32.060 the manifestations

00:38:34.020 of the story

00:38:35.040 of Christ

00:38:35.520 the more insanely

00:38:36.500 complicated

00:38:37.160 and far reaching

00:38:38.120 it becomes.

00:38:38.640 so I read

00:38:39.500 Ion for example

00:38:40.640 and for all of those

00:38:41.440 who are listening

00:38:42.420 if you want to

00:38:43.000 read a book

00:38:43.860 that will completely

00:38:45.000 make you insane

00:38:46.880 then you could read

00:38:48.580 Jung's Ion

00:38:49.440 and it's a study

00:38:50.820 of Christian symbolism

00:38:52.260 in astrology

00:38:53.100 which doesn't sound

00:38:54.540 particularly dangerous

00:38:55.600 but

00:38:55.900 or

00:38:56.460 or

00:38:57.120 or even

00:38:58.680 particularly necessary

00:38:59.980 to read

00:39:00.520 I suppose

00:39:01.020 but

00:39:01.280 Jung describes

00:39:05.660 the

00:39:05.940 juxtaposition

00:39:07.420 of astrological

00:39:08.460 and Christian symbolism

00:39:09.800 and it's a brilliant book

00:39:11.040 and it's terrifying

00:39:11.880 because he

00:39:12.500 he outlines

00:39:13.440 the concordance

00:39:14.240 between the levels

00:39:15.040 of symbolism

00:39:15.620 over several

00:39:16.760 thousand years

00:39:17.820 and it's obvious

00:39:19.200 when you read

00:39:20.240 the book

00:39:20.660 that no one

00:39:22.760 plotted this

00:39:23.960 it's not a conspiracy

00:39:25.320 whatever's going on

00:39:26.960 to make that

00:39:28.720 concordance occur

00:39:30.040 isn't something

00:39:31.100 that we understand

00:39:31.920 and it seems to be

00:39:32.880 best understood

00:39:34.200 as one of these

00:39:35.560 situations

00:39:36.140 where

00:39:36.580 the narrative

00:39:37.440 and the objective

00:39:38.160 touch

00:39:38.740 the saturation

00:39:39.660 of Christianity

00:39:40.460 with fish symbolism

00:39:41.700 Jung associates

00:39:42.660 with astrological

00:39:44.000 movement

00:39:44.460 of

00:39:44.720 of

00:39:45.860 into the house

00:39:47.500 of Pisces

00:39:48.160 and

00:39:50.380 and so

00:39:51.020 he

00:39:51.540 he describes

00:39:52.480 how

00:39:52.720 a drama

00:39:54.080 so

00:39:54.740 ancient people

00:39:55.900 saw a drama

00:39:57.100 played out in the sky

00:39:58.300 and that was a projection

00:39:59.280 of their imagination

00:40:00.200 and that projection

00:40:02.320 contained symbols

00:40:03.460 that were associated

00:40:04.680 with the emergence

00:40:05.540 of Christianity

00:40:06.340 and so

00:40:07.340 you can see

00:40:08.700 in that

00:40:09.120 the alternative

00:40:10.640 explanation

00:40:11.200 is that

00:40:11.780 there's this

00:40:12.400 there's this

00:40:14.140 unfolding

00:40:14.880 of a symbolic

00:40:15.660 landscape

00:40:16.220 over centuries

00:40:17.200 or millennia

00:40:17.980 that's part of

00:40:19.380 human biological

00:40:20.560 and cultural evolution

00:40:21.820 but that

00:40:23.420 that starts to

00:40:24.700 touch on the

00:40:25.860 religious anyways

00:40:26.760 when you

00:40:27.260 when you describe it

00:40:28.300 in those terms

00:40:29.120 like it's

00:40:30.400 it's

00:40:30.620 it's the operation

00:40:31.540 of a

00:40:31.900 of a cognitive

00:40:32.900 of a natural

00:40:33.880 cognitive process

00:40:35.000 let's say

00:40:35.520 natural

00:40:36.360 slash cognitive

00:40:37.180 process

00:40:37.660 that supersedes

00:40:38.540 any one

00:40:39.040 individual

00:40:39.540 or any one

00:40:40.200 culture

00:40:40.700 and so

00:40:42.100 I've never

00:40:43.180 seen a critique

00:40:44.380 of Ion

00:40:45.100 you know

00:40:45.420 I think people

00:40:46.060 read that book

00:40:46.800 and they think

00:40:47.280 oh

00:40:47.940 it's like

00:40:49.220 John Allegro's

00:40:50.220 the sacred

00:40:51.260 the mushroom

00:40:51.940 and the sacred

00:40:52.520 cross

00:40:52.960 do you know

00:40:53.520 of that book

00:40:54.160 I believe

00:40:54.760 that's the title

00:40:55.440 well it's another

00:40:56.440 book you read

00:40:57.020 and you think

00:40:57.420 well I have no

00:40:58.300 idea what

00:40:58.780 it's a study

00:41:00.060 of mushroom

00:41:02.020 symbolism

00:41:02.540 in Christianity

00:41:03.220 and it's

00:41:04.300 another book

00:41:04.860 that you know

00:41:06.360 it claims

00:41:07.240 that Christianity

00:41:09.120 was heavily

00:41:09.820 influenced by

00:41:11.200 psilocybin use

00:41:12.160 and it was

00:41:12.460 published in the

00:41:13.000 1960s

00:41:13.760 it's an amazing

00:41:14.380 book but it's

00:41:15.580 another book

00:41:16.040 you read

00:41:16.580 and you think

00:41:16.920 I have no

00:41:17.400 idea what

00:41:17.880 to do with

00:41:18.260 that I have

00:41:18.740 no place

00:41:19.600 to put

00:41:20.020 that book

00:41:20.680 so but Ion

00:41:23.000 is really like

00:41:23.760 that and

00:41:24.560 well one of the

00:41:25.920 things that

00:41:26.360 for example

00:41:26.860 you know

00:41:27.600 you talked

00:41:28.060 about just

00:41:28.500 before the

00:41:29.180 idea that

00:41:29.940 you know

00:41:31.520 the idea

00:41:32.580 of Christ

00:41:32.940 being a

00:41:33.280 dying and

00:41:33.660 resurrecting

00:41:34.120 God

00:41:34.420 and you

00:41:34.920 know

00:41:35.060 that's

00:41:36.580 really actually

00:41:37.100 not the

00:41:37.800 case

00:41:38.120 if you

00:41:38.440 actually just

00:41:39.060 look at

00:41:39.540 the story

00:41:39.900 of Christ

00:41:40.300 and not

00:41:40.600 just the

00:41:40.900 story in

00:41:41.240 scripture

00:41:41.440 but let's

00:41:42.160 say the

00:41:42.380 whole story

00:41:42.880 as it

00:41:43.200 kind of

00:41:43.460 developed

00:41:43.760 in tradition

00:41:44.220 and kind

00:41:44.520 of melded

00:41:45.300 together

00:41:45.740 in the

00:41:46.480 ancient

00:41:46.680 world

00:41:46.920 you had

00:41:47.180 this idea

00:41:47.620 of gods

00:41:48.100 that went

00:41:48.400 down into

00:41:48.860 the underworld

00:41:49.400 you know

00:41:50.280 either that

00:41:50.720 went down

00:41:51.260 for some

00:41:51.700 reason to

00:41:52.280 visit or

00:41:52.780 went down

00:41:53.340 to save

00:41:53.820 somebody

00:41:54.160 even or

00:41:54.920 you know

00:41:55.640 or died

00:41:56.840 and then

00:41:57.360 rose again

00:41:58.440 but that's

00:41:59.220 actually not

00:42:00.100 the story

00:42:00.620 of Christ

00:42:01.040 because if

00:42:02.300 you understand

00:42:03.280 the full

00:42:03.760 tradition of

00:42:04.280 the Christian

00:42:04.620 story we

00:42:05.180 think that

00:42:05.640 Christ died

00:42:06.620 went into

00:42:07.960 Hades

00:42:08.340 and then

00:42:09.460 destroyed

00:42:09.900 death

00:42:10.300 and he

00:42:11.740 pulls

00:42:11.980 everybody out

00:42:12.640 of death

00:42:13.080 and then

00:42:13.640 that's it

00:42:14.480 like what

00:42:15.420 other story

00:42:16.140 are you going

00:42:16.580 to tell

00:42:17.020 after that

00:42:17.560 story

00:42:17.940 you have

00:42:19.500 a story

00:42:20.060 of someone

00:42:21.420 who dies

00:42:22.080 goes into

00:42:22.580 death

00:42:22.940 and then

00:42:23.660 destroys

00:42:25.140 death

00:42:25.840 and then

00:42:26.300 that's it

00:42:27.120 like that

00:42:27.760 that's the

00:42:28.660 thing with

00:42:29.040 Christ's

00:42:29.580 story

00:42:29.800 that every

00:42:30.420 story

00:42:30.880 every aspect

00:42:31.640 of his

00:42:31.980 story

00:42:32.280 reaches the

00:42:33.240 limit of

00:42:33.820 storytelling

00:42:34.360 and it's

00:42:35.680 impossible

00:42:36.400 to go beyond

00:42:37.740 it

00:42:38.020 right

00:42:38.280 that's right

00:42:38.820 that's right

00:42:39.300 well even

00:42:39.640 from a

00:42:39.980 psychological

00:42:40.400 perspective

00:42:40.980 that's

00:42:41.340 correct

00:42:41.680 and that

00:42:43.060 in itself

00:42:43.540 is a

00:42:43.840 kind of

00:42:44.160 miracle

00:42:44.520 and so

00:42:45.200 you're

00:42:45.440 stuck

00:42:45.760 in some

00:42:46.160 sense

00:42:46.480 constantly

00:42:47.020 having to

00:42:47.580 choose

00:42:47.840 between

00:42:48.160 miracles

00:42:48.560 it's

00:42:48.880 like

00:42:49.040 okay

00:42:49.680 it's a

00:42:51.200 figment

00:42:52.060 of the

00:42:52.360 human

00:42:52.560 imagination

00:42:53.180 fine

00:42:53.800 but it's

00:42:54.280 the limit

00:42:54.840 figment

00:42:55.400 in multiple

00:42:56.220 ways

00:42:56.720 how did

00:42:57.260 that happen

00:42:57.840 and also

00:42:59.040 but as soon

00:42:59.760 as you start

00:43:00.320 to start to

00:43:01.100 think that the

00:43:01.860 world is made

00:43:02.640 of attention

00:43:03.460 the idea

00:43:04.600 of just a

00:43:05.540 figment of

00:43:06.040 somebody's

00:43:06.480 imagination

00:43:07.140 especially

00:43:08.000 just a figment

00:43:09.820 of someone's

00:43:10.400 imagination

00:43:10.780 which is

00:43:11.520 happens like you

00:43:12.380 said over

00:43:12.720 thousands of

00:43:13.260 years within

00:43:13.780 communities of

00:43:14.520 thousands of

00:43:14.980 people

00:43:15.280 it just

00:43:16.060 becomes a

00:43:16.580 ridiculous

00:43:16.980 statement

00:43:17.520 it doesn't

00:43:18.540 it doesn't

00:43:18.940 mean anything

00:43:19.600 it's like

00:43:20.080 yeah it

00:43:20.560 only means

00:43:21.040 something

00:43:21.360 if you

00:43:21.700 assume

00:43:21.980 that

00:43:22.180 and Jung

00:43:22.840 pointed this

00:43:23.420 out

00:43:23.680 it only

00:43:24.120 means

00:43:24.400 something

00:43:24.760 it only

00:43:25.380 to say

00:43:28.620 it's a

00:43:28.880 figment

00:43:29.140 of imagination

00:43:29.740 and have

00:43:31.320 that brush

00:43:32.260 it aside

00:43:32.740 means that

00:43:33.400 you think

00:43:34.200 that imagination

00:43:34.820 is nothing

00:43:35.720 and Jung

00:43:37.220 pointed out

00:43:38.060 constantly that

00:43:38.880 you should

00:43:39.440 not attribute

00:43:40.500 nothing to

00:43:41.140 the psyche

00:43:41.640 it's what

00:43:43.720 you depend

00:43:44.260 upon

00:43:44.640 it's the

00:43:45.520 ground of

00:43:46.040 your existence

00:43:46.720 it's not

00:43:49.440 nothing

00:43:49.900 it's the

00:43:50.760 thing that

00:43:51.400 you take

00:43:51.800 for granted

00:43:52.220 more than

00:43:52.720 anything else

00:43:53.640 so anything

00:43:55.280 that you can

00:43:56.320 recognize as

00:43:57.800 a story

00:43:58.280 will definitely

00:43:59.120 be manifesting

00:44:00.100 patterns that

00:44:01.540 you can

00:44:02.260 recognize

00:44:02.720 and so they

00:44:03.660 can't just be

00:44:04.460 brushed aside

00:44:05.100 from the

00:44:05.820 most insane

00:44:07.100 conspiracy theory

00:44:08.120 to the

00:44:08.960 most childish

00:44:10.520 fairy tale

00:44:11.340 anything that

00:44:12.440 manifests itself

00:44:13.300 as a pattern

00:44:14.860 of story that

00:44:15.600 you can

00:44:15.860 recognize

00:44:16.520 has a

00:44:18.340 certain level

00:44:19.360 of value

00:44:20.060 has enough

00:44:21.480 level that

00:44:22.500 if you pay

00:44:23.000 attention to

00:44:23.660 it you

00:44:24.180 actually can

00:44:24.880 gather some

00:44:26.340 nuggets of

00:44:27.940 how the

00:44:29.020 world works

00:44:29.560 and how the

00:44:30.200 world lays

00:44:30.700 itself out

00:44:31.340 and that's

00:44:32.480 why if I

00:44:33.480 do symbolic

00:44:33.960 interpretations

00:44:34.560 I can do it

00:44:35.200 for scripture

00:44:35.680 but I can

00:44:36.200 also do it

00:44:36.800 for some

00:44:37.620 Marvel movie

00:44:38.840 or some

00:44:39.460 video game

00:44:40.420 or whatever

00:44:40.880 it is

00:44:41.280 because

00:44:41.560 that's just

00:44:42.620 for you to

00:44:43.860 even recognize

00:44:44.460 something as

00:44:45.140 having being

00:44:45.820 it's already

00:44:46.900 part of that

00:44:47.720 world

00:44:48.000 it's already

00:44:48.460 manifesting

00:44:49.240 these patterns

00:44:49.980 no and that

00:44:51.400 is one of the

00:44:52.000 things that

00:44:52.540 that narrative

00:44:53.280 does is that

00:44:54.200 it enables us

00:44:55.020 to play out

00:44:56.420 ideas that

00:44:57.040 we're not yet

00:44:57.780 intelligent enough

00:44:58.560 to understand

00:44:59.200 and sometimes

00:44:59.880 the gap between

00:45:01.460 the narrative

00:45:02.040 representation and

00:45:03.060 the explicit

00:45:03.560 understanding can

00:45:04.440 be thousands and

00:45:05.220 thousands of

00:45:05.700 years because

00:45:06.260 we're still

00:45:06.680 unwrapping

00:45:07.340 well we're

00:45:08.040 certainly still

00:45:08.540 unwrapping

00:45:08.980 the Bible

00:45:09.440 we're unwrapping

00:45:10.560 we're still

00:45:11.060 unwrapping

00:45:11.560 Shakespeare

00:45:12.060 there's more

00:45:13.020 depth there

00:45:13.620 than we can

00:45:14.180 than we can

00:45:15.040 understand

00:45:15.940 explicitly

00:45:16.620 and so

00:45:17.720 anything that

00:45:18.260 uses character

00:45:19.060 has that

00:45:19.560 tremendous

00:45:20.000 advantage

00:45:20.700 and then

00:45:21.420 it also

00:45:21.900 there's also

00:45:22.780 this strange

00:45:23.520 ability that

00:45:24.360 some people

00:45:25.320 have in

00:45:25.780 spades

00:45:26.360 to create

00:45:28.860 fictional worlds

00:45:29.820 that are of

00:45:30.580 unbelievable

00:45:31.220 profundity and

00:45:32.140 power and

00:45:32.800 I mean the

00:45:34.020 greatest example

00:45:34.980 of that in the

00:45:35.460 last 30 years

00:45:36.300 in terms of

00:45:37.140 sheer imaginative

00:45:38.060 power has got

00:45:38.800 to be J.K.

00:45:39.620 Rowling and

00:45:40.200 the Harry Potter

00:45:41.160 series which

00:45:41.940 you know gripped

00:45:43.040 the imagination

00:45:43.700 of the entire

00:45:44.560 planet for

00:45:46.400 a decade and

00:45:47.820 produced untold

00:45:49.080 wealth and

00:45:49.900 spread literacy

00:45:50.800 everywhere as

00:45:51.580 well she had

00:45:52.780 a remarkably

00:45:54.880 creative

00:45:55.520 imagination and

00:45:56.760 something quite

00:45:58.320 mysterious and

00:45:59.820 so you're

00:46:00.300 fortunate enough

00:46:01.340 to work at the

00:46:02.000 marriage of

00:46:02.520 ideas and

00:46:03.260 drama.

00:46:05.380 Yes and

00:46:05.920 you know it's

00:46:06.620 really interesting

00:46:07.440 when you've

00:46:08.220 spoken about

00:46:08.840 Dostoevsky and

00:46:10.080 others

00:46:10.780 in some of

00:46:12.260 your lectures

00:46:12.740 I'm fascinated

00:46:14.060 by him and

00:46:15.080 all the Russians

00:46:15.620 I studied

00:46:16.200 Russian for

00:46:16.980 four years in

00:46:18.040 college and

00:46:18.840 read some of

00:46:20.380 these in the

00:46:20.880 original my

00:46:21.580 Russian wasn't

00:46:22.420 fluent enough for

00:46:23.920 me to really

00:46:24.660 I mean I had to

00:46:25.560 grind through

00:46:26.300 them but

00:46:26.840 Tolstoy

00:46:28.160 Chekhov

00:46:29.480 Chekhov who

00:46:30.240 was a doctor

00:46:31.700 a medical

00:46:32.360 doctor as well

00:46:33.420 as a writer

00:46:34.040 so that

00:46:35.620 congruence of

00:46:38.620 a commitment

00:46:40.260 not just in

00:46:41.580 terms of

00:46:42.060 literature but

00:46:43.060 that he used

00:46:44.920 his profession

00:46:46.340 as a doctor

00:46:48.200 to also

00:46:49.500 inform him

00:46:50.800 as a writer

00:46:52.660 he famously

00:46:54.000 said

00:46:54.560 medicine is

00:46:57.760 my wife and

00:46:59.940 literature is my

00:47:00.800 mistress and

00:47:01.560 when I tire of

00:47:02.820 one I spend

00:47:03.480 time with the

00:47:04.100 other and

00:47:06.060 Pushkin who

00:47:09.640 would write

00:47:11.140 stories that

00:47:12.020 were full of

00:47:13.380 thought but

00:47:15.000 the story

00:47:15.780 itself was

00:47:17.480 bigger than

00:47:18.220 any thought he

00:47:19.240 could put around

00:47:20.020 it it was

00:47:20.560 more resonant

00:47:21.880 it carried

00:47:23.060 more

00:47:23.460 by the

00:47:25.680 way when

00:47:26.800 I listened

00:47:27.240 to your

00:47:27.940 your biblical

00:47:28.980 series it

00:47:30.540 caused me to

00:47:31.500 decide to

00:47:32.800 read through

00:47:33.500 the whole

00:47:34.000 Bible and

00:47:36.380 just start to

00:47:37.700 finish and I

00:47:38.260 grew up

00:47:38.800 Southern

00:47:39.120 Baptist so

00:47:39.920 ever since I

00:47:41.160 could read

00:47:41.880 I've read the

00:47:43.020 Bible virtually

00:47:44.540 every day of

00:47:45.200 my life but

00:47:46.400 I'd never read

00:47:47.420 the Bible

00:47:47.960 start to

00:47:48.760 finish and

00:47:49.140 there were

00:47:49.440 some books

00:47:49.920 that even

00:47:50.880 when I was

00:47:51.860 religion major

00:47:52.760 at university

00:47:53.700 I would get

00:47:55.160 to some of

00:47:55.620 the books

00:47:55.940 and go I

00:47:56.800 can't stay

00:47:57.660 awake for

00:47:58.460 this book I

00:47:59.440 just got to

00:47:59.960 move on but

00:48:01.080 when you really

00:48:01.680 go through it

00:48:02.700 and you see

00:48:03.840 the the Old

00:48:05.260 Testament as

00:48:06.980 this this

00:48:09.220 incredible saga

00:48:10.640 of a people

00:48:11.880 trying to find

00:48:13.300 the rules that

00:48:15.260 that kept them

00:48:16.460 together as a

00:48:17.260 people and it

00:48:18.420 felt if you

00:48:19.820 disobey these

00:48:20.900 rules then

00:48:22.420 it's going to

00:48:23.120 end badly

00:48:23.720 for us all

00:48:24.560 and the

00:48:26.660 greatest the

00:48:27.980 greatest violation

00:48:29.280 is to erect

00:48:30.300 altars to

00:48:31.280 other guys

00:48:32.180 right that's

00:48:33.140 worship false

00:48:33.980 idols yeah

00:48:34.680 that's the

00:48:35.380 worst and

00:48:36.420 then along

00:48:37.180 comes Jesus

00:48:37.900 who is

00:48:38.320 completely

00:48:38.980 steeped in

00:48:40.560 all that

00:48:41.020 Old Testament

00:48:41.760 I mean he

00:48:42.440 is he is

00:48:43.520 profound in

00:48:44.620 his knowledge

00:48:45.080 of it and

00:48:46.460 he lives

00:48:47.380 and does

00:48:48.160 and says

00:48:49.280 these things

00:48:50.120 but it's not

00:48:51.220 like it's a

00:48:51.780 philosophy it's

00:48:52.800 a narrative

00:48:53.480 a narrative

00:48:54.480 which I've

00:48:55.940 studied a great

00:48:56.540 deal and I

00:48:57.220 believe is

00:48:58.020 is largely

00:48:59.540 historical or

00:49:00.920 I should say

00:49:01.420 significantly

00:49:02.380 historical I

00:49:04.900 believe these

00:49:05.680 things did

00:49:06.800 happen and

00:49:07.820 then you have

00:49:08.660 Saint Paul

00:49:09.680 who's trying

00:49:11.220 to make sense

00:49:12.060 of what

00:49:13.000 happened and

00:49:14.740 and it's

00:49:16.240 mind-blowing

00:49:16.900 to me

00:49:17.620 it's mind-blowing

00:49:18.820 to read it

00:49:20.260 as a whole

00:49:20.960 and put it

00:49:21.460 into perspective

00:49:22.460 in that

00:49:22.960 having spent

00:49:24.460 my life

00:49:24.980 well what's

00:49:25.520 mind-blowing

00:49:26.020 about it

00:49:26.540 in part

00:49:27.600 I mean and

00:49:28.960 I try to

00:49:29.440 speak of the

00:49:30.000 Bible not

00:49:31.440 from the

00:49:31.880 perspective of

00:49:32.680 a committed

00:49:33.180 believer and

00:49:34.100 I have my

00:49:34.940 reasons for

00:49:35.520 that I

00:49:37.540 guess it's

00:49:38.220 partly because

00:49:38.780 I want to

00:49:39.380 concentrate on

00:49:40.760 what everyone

00:49:43.020 can come to

00:49:43.700 see as true

00:49:44.440 I suppose

00:49:45.460 perhaps that's

00:49:46.420 it but it

00:49:49.700 is remarkable

00:49:50.400 that the

00:49:51.720 Bible does

00:49:52.720 in fact make

00:49:53.520 a coherent

00:49:53.980 narrative because

00:49:55.820 we don't

00:49:56.220 understand that

00:49:57.200 it was

00:49:58.020 written by a

00:49:59.580 very diverse

00:50:00.220 range of

00:50:00.800 people over

00:50:01.460 a span of

00:50:02.140 time that we

00:50:02.940 can perhaps

00:50:03.400 not even

00:50:03.820 imagine it's

00:50:05.020 very difficult

00:50:05.940 to tell how

00:50:06.640 old the

00:50:07.160 oldest stories

00:50:08.200 in Genesis

00:50:08.920 particular are

00:50:09.860 the story of

00:50:12.080 the fall

00:50:12.580 and of Adam

00:50:13.980 and Eve

00:50:14.300 and Cain

00:50:15.100 and Abel

00:50:15.480 they bear

00:50:16.640 all the

00:50:17.140 hallmarks of

00:50:18.260 a previous

00:50:19.020 oral tradition

00:50:19.920 that would

00:50:21.960 have existed

00:50:22.560 in relatively

00:50:24.340 unchanged form

00:50:25.420 for tens of

00:50:26.420 thousands of

00:50:27.020 years and

00:50:27.560 perhaps even

00:50:28.180 longer than

00:50:28.720 that and so

00:50:29.500 they're

00:50:30.000 unbelievably

00:50:30.740 ancient and

00:50:31.760 then parts

00:50:33.320 of it

00:50:33.520 obviously are

00:50:34.300 newer and

00:50:34.780 the written

00:50:35.700 parts are

00:50:36.180 obviously newer

00:50:36.740 than any

00:50:37.220 tentative

00:50:38.120 oral tradition

00:50:38.900 but you

00:50:39.520 have a

00:50:40.000 you have

00:50:40.860 at the

00:50:41.360 bare

00:50:41.700 minimum

00:50:42.160 an

00:50:42.740 unbelievably

00:50:43.380 deep

00:50:43.980 psychological

00:50:44.660 document

00:50:45.560 that

00:50:46.580 weaves

00:50:47.200 itself

00:50:47.780 over

00:50:48.720 centuries

00:50:49.300 into a

00:50:49.860 coherent

00:50:50.180 story

00:50:50.780 and

00:50:51.140 Northrop Frye

00:50:52.340 I would

00:50:52.640 say he's a

00:50:53.240 Canadian literary

00:50:53.940 critic has

00:50:54.900 did more

00:50:55.720 for me than

00:50:56.300 any other

00:50:56.820 particular

00:50:58.080 thinker

00:50:58.580 to help me

00:50:59.860 understand the

00:51:00.520 nature of the

00:51:01.040 narrative

00:51:01.300 because Frye

00:51:02.420 I suppose he

00:51:03.220 did the same

00:51:03.700 thing or I'm

00:51:05.100 doing the same

00:51:05.640 thing that he

00:51:06.160 did because he

00:51:06.740 preceded me

00:51:07.520 also at the

00:51:08.680 University of

00:51:09.200 Toronto

00:51:09.520 he assessed

00:51:13.040 the Bible as

00:51:13.820 a work of

00:51:14.380 literature

00:51:14.840 as a

00:51:16.280 narrative

00:51:16.620 and that

00:51:18.920 to me was

00:51:19.520 never any

00:51:20.400 denigration

00:51:21.320 because

00:51:21.860 narrative

00:51:23.440 a powerful

00:51:24.860 narrative

00:51:25.280 and you talk

00:51:25.980 about this

00:51:26.340 when you talk

00:51:26.780 about Braveheart

00:51:27.520 for example

00:51:28.120 because there

00:51:29.480 isn't that much

00:51:30.160 known about

00:51:30.720 William Wallace

00:51:31.340 historically but

00:51:32.240 you crafted a

00:51:33.700 narrative that

00:51:34.660 was true

00:51:35.920 enough let's

00:51:36.840 say to be

00:51:38.040 unbelievably

00:51:38.680 attractive to

00:51:39.520 people and to

00:51:40.200 motivate them

00:51:40.900 very deeply

00:51:41.540 because it's an

00:51:42.300 affecting movie

00:51:43.220 well and if it

00:51:43.820 wasn't it wouldn't

00:51:44.460 have been so

00:51:45.040 popular and so

00:51:47.440 there's a there's a

00:51:48.280 truth in narrative

00:51:49.160 that I think is

00:51:49.980 even deeper than

00:51:50.720 historical truth

00:51:51.520 a true like a

00:51:52.920 truly profound

00:51:53.980 narrative truth

00:51:55.180 is like the

00:51:56.700 average of a

00:51:57.940 whole variety of

00:51:58.840 historical truths

00:51:59.900 and so it's the

00:52:01.240 essence of

00:52:01.980 historical truth

00:52:02.960 so it's even

00:52:04.380 more true than

00:52:05.180 than what we

00:52:06.340 would consider

00:52:06.900 say eyewitness

00:52:07.980 history because

00:52:08.700 eyewitness history

00:52:09.540 is just it's

00:52:10.680 one battle

00:52:11.540 you know and

00:52:12.960 and there's maybe

00:52:13.740 an epic theme in

00:52:14.600 that battle but

00:52:15.160 then imagine that

00:52:15.900 you could look at

00:52:16.460 a thousand battles

00:52:17.580 and you could

00:52:18.240 and you could

00:52:19.180 extract out from

00:52:20.260 that what was

00:52:20.900 canonical about

00:52:22.060 heroic victory

00:52:23.140 across all

00:52:23.920 one thousand

00:52:24.580 battles you see

00:52:25.940 something like that

00:52:26.840 happening in the

00:52:27.540 old testament and

00:52:28.340 the narrative

00:52:29.240 the narrative thread

00:52:30.580 is really quite

00:52:31.340 deep

00:52:31.760 societies emerge

00:52:35.080 formulate

00:52:36.480 fall off the

00:52:38.280 path

00:52:38.760 worship false

00:52:40.160 idols

00:52:40.500 collapse

00:52:41.360 and then the

00:52:42.540 same thing

00:52:42.940 happens again

00:52:43.520 and the collapse

00:52:44.220 happens and the

00:52:44.900 collapse happens

00:52:45.520 because people

00:52:46.300 become too

00:52:47.540 prideful the

00:52:48.560 kings in

00:52:49.080 particular

00:52:49.480 they don't

00:52:50.360 listen to the

00:52:51.120 voice of

00:52:51.540 conscience

00:52:52.000 they

00:52:52.300 and a

00:52:53.180 prophetic voice

00:52:54.040 arises and

00:52:54.800 says you're

00:52:55.840 wandering off

00:52:57.160 the tried and

00:52:58.580 true path and

00:52:59.440 you're going to

00:53:00.380 be punished

00:53:01.420 terribly for

00:53:02.500 that and

00:53:03.020 generally speaking

00:53:04.560 the kings

00:53:05.580 ignore that and

00:53:06.600 catastrophe breaks

00:53:08.740 free and you

00:53:10.120 see and in the

00:53:12.100 old testament in

00:53:12.960 particular there's

00:53:13.560 the promise of

00:53:14.380 the ultimate state

00:53:16.160 in some sense

00:53:16.940 there's utopian

00:53:17.740 promises that run

00:53:18.760 through it the

00:53:19.280 search for the

00:53:19.840 promised land and

00:53:20.560 then so strangely

00:53:22.280 you see that

00:53:22.960 transformed into

00:53:23.880 something that's

00:53:24.520 not really political

00:53:25.560 in the new

00:53:26.100 testament you see

00:53:27.380 that the promised

00:53:28.220 land becomes

00:53:29.220 the nature of

00:53:30.520 experience as a

00:53:31.420 consequence of a

00:53:32.280 particular form of

00:53:33.380 moral being and

00:53:35.400 and then perhaps

00:53:36.860 that has political

00:53:37.600 implications because

00:53:38.640 people who acted

00:53:39.480 like that would

00:53:40.040 produce a particular

00:53:40.800 state but it's no

00:53:41.780 longer it's it's

00:53:43.680 it's no longer the

00:53:44.720 dream of establishing

00:53:46.120 the state that will

00:53:47.900 solve all problems

00:53:49.820 it's psychologized and

00:53:51.420 it's it's

00:53:51.900 unbelievably profound

00:53:53.240 and it it's and

00:53:55.380 that's I think you

00:53:56.180 can derive all of

00:53:57.040 that from from the

00:53:58.180 biblical writings

00:53:58.860 without even

00:54:02.160 starting to move

00:54:03.120 on to classically

00:54:03.960 religious territory

00:54:04.980 and and it's and

00:54:08.400 then that does beg

00:54:09.200 the question of

00:54:09.880 course is what does

00:54:10.680 all that wisdom

00:54:11.340 point to in the

00:54:12.200 final analysis and

00:54:13.660 that's when the

00:54:14.340 questions start to

00:54:15.060 become religious

00:54:15.720 yes and well

00:54:18.360 Jordan that's that's

00:54:20.100 the part to me that

00:54:21.360 it takes it into a

00:54:23.280 whole whole different

00:54:24.480 realm as you as you

00:54:25.660 say there's a quote

00:54:28.320 from Mary Oliver that

00:54:30.100 a friend shared with

00:54:31.340 me recently it's a

00:54:32.720 keep some room in

00:54:34.420 your heart for the

00:54:35.340 unimaginable and I

00:54:38.180 find that in in a

00:54:41.260 great story in any or

00:54:42.960 any great piece of

00:54:44.080 art that surprise is

00:54:46.840 the central currency of

00:54:48.460 its power there's an

00:54:50.320 element of if you will

00:54:51.540 of revelation if you

00:54:53.400 will and I think it

00:54:55.380 was Paul Tillich I'm

00:54:56.480 not sure who said

00:54:57.440 that religion is man's

00:55:00.320 way to God and it's

00:55:01.340 always erroneous but

00:55:02.520 revelation is God's way

00:55:04.600 to man maybe it was

00:55:05.340 Karl Barth it's God's

00:55:07.020 way to man and it's

00:55:07.840 always perfect well

00:55:09.440 there's there's a

00:55:10.800 revelatory aspect to

00:55:12.780 any great story when

00:55:14.580 you're telling someone a

00:55:15.600 story and they didn't

00:55:17.700 see coming what just

00:55:19.280 happened that's what

00:55:21.000 makes them awake that's

00:55:23.480 what stabs them broad

00:55:25.280 awake you know what

00:55:26.620 my the most powerful

00:55:27.860 takeaway for me was

00:55:29.320 from my biblical

00:55:30.180 series which which is

00:55:31.860 what the meaning of

00:55:33.440 the word Israel

00:55:34.240 wrestling with God we

00:55:36.460 who wrestle with God

00:55:37.700 yeah who struggle with

00:55:39.100 God yeah it's like

00:55:40.600 well maybe that's the

00:55:41.400 real Christian spirit is

00:55:42.780 and that's what that

00:55:44.080 phrase implies and

00:55:45.060 that's the real Jewish

00:55:45.880 spirit yeah wrestling

00:55:48.140 John it's why does

00:55:50.140 what you know why

00:55:50.900 does why is there

00:55:51.860 that strange scene of

00:55:53.340 the wrestling with the

00:55:54.740 angel like why would

00:55:55.700 you possibly fight with

00:55:57.140 God and then you think

00:55:58.140 well God isn't that

00:55:59.040 what I'm doing all the

00:56:00.100 time and he's not

00:56:01.220 what everybody's doing

00:56:02.040 all the time he

00:56:03.400 partially wins though

00:56:04.460 that's what's even more

00:56:05.420 mysterious and hurts

00:56:06.740 you doing so yeah I

00:56:08.540 mean that's that's

00:56:09.500 that's the story but

00:56:10.780 isn't that the story I

00:56:12.460 mean it isn't belief

00:56:13.420 it's the wrestling with

00:56:14.600 belief and and and

00:56:16.140 and it's wrestling in

00:56:17.760 the way that you're

00:56:18.360 wrestling well I mean I

00:56:20.800 do sparring and I

00:56:21.880 often use sparring as

00:56:23.340 a metaphor for the

00:56:25.900 kind of so that's the

00:56:26.840 other metaphor for

00:56:27.600 dialogue yeah exactly

00:56:29.140 it's not just the

00:56:29.980 tracking it's the

00:56:30.920 sparring yeah and and

00:56:32.720 you we have to

00:56:33.460 remember you know

00:56:34.900 that kind of sums up

00:56:36.000 men's relationships well

00:56:37.680 well play each other

00:56:38.640 tracking and sparring

00:56:39.860 Plato means big

00:56:41.060 shoulders he was a

00:56:41.780 wrestler that's that's

00:56:44.280 his nickname his

00:56:45.340 nickname is Plato

00:56:46.200 because he's a

00:56:46.700 wrestler and we have

00:56:47.600 to remember that the

00:56:48.300 Greeks are in the

00:56:48.860 gymnasium even more

00:56:50.220 than there are in the

00:56:51.180 academy right I was

00:56:52.560 watching this suits

00:56:53.740 episode last night and

00:56:55.100 yeah the the men are

00:56:57.300 always sparring with

00:56:58.320 each other verbally you

00:56:59.380 know and they're

00:57:00.160 tracking something they're

00:57:01.220 tracking victory in this

00:57:02.420 series they're they're

00:57:03.400 phyla

00:57:03.880 and they wrestle they

00:57:06.540 wrestle when they fight

00:57:07.600 they they have to go

00:57:08.700 into a clinch in a

00:57:09.860 fight to settle their

00:57:10.700 disputes like a

00:57:11.640 physical fight but

00:57:12.940 there's you can shift

00:57:14.060 off of that this

00:57:14.660 happened Bernardo and

00:57:16.440 I when we were doing

00:57:17.160 this we both said this

00:57:18.760 you can shift off of

00:57:19.840 it and this happens

00:57:20.440 when you're actually

00:57:21.120 martial arts sparring

00:57:22.300 because you get into

00:57:22.980 the shared flow state

00:57:24.200 you can shift off of

00:57:25.600 victory to the

00:57:26.360 aesthetics of the

00:57:27.260 dance there's a

00:57:28.640 beauty in that that

00:57:29.700 is an independent

00:57:30.820 Vic that's independent

00:57:32.440 of victory that you

00:57:33.600 can come to appreciate

00:57:34.680 for its own sake

00:57:35.640 Plato talks about this

00:57:36.940 he talks about this

00:57:37.560 the beauty the eros

00:57:38.960 that draws you into

00:57:40.260 the that's why he

00:57:41.240 yeah a dance but

00:57:44.240 but it's a dance

00:57:45.080 that draws you

00:57:45.840 beyond yourself

00:57:46.480 education right to

00:57:48.160 draw forth from you

00:57:49.320 and so is that the

00:57:50.680 is that the battle

00:57:51.740 with the adversary

00:57:52.600 is that related to

00:57:54.780 the this is another

00:57:55.860 very serious question

00:57:57.040 obviously it's a

00:57:58.660 question related to

00:57:59.420 the book of Job

00:58:00.300 I don't know because

00:58:01.840 I see parallels you

00:58:03.320 know in Nietzsche's

00:58:03.940 quote you know I

00:58:05.020 hate Socrates he's

00:58:06.120 so close to me I'm

00:58:07.060 always fighting him

00:58:08.000 right you can see

00:58:09.080 you can see both

00:58:10.660 Nietzsche and

00:58:11.220 Kierkegaard wrestling

00:58:12.380 with Socrates

00:58:13.140 Kierkegaard said I

00:58:14.740 follow Jesus but

00:58:15.880 Socrates is my

00:58:16.700 teacher and he

00:58:17.440 wrestles with Socrates

00:58:18.880 all the way through

00:58:19.940 everybody's wrestling

00:58:21.140 with Socrates I

00:58:21.760 follow Jesus but

00:58:23.100 Socrates is my

00:58:24.500 teacher so is that

00:58:25.300 the statement of the

00:58:26.140 West

00:58:26.500 I think that I

00:58:30.160 mean that was your

00:58:30.700 objection at the

00:58:31.440 beginning of this

00:58:32.120 talk right at least

00:58:34.300 to some degree

00:58:34.880 because you said

00:58:35.740 how influenced you

00:58:36.520 were with Greece

00:58:37.080 you insisted on how

00:58:38.100 influenced you were

00:58:38.900 by Greece

00:58:39.420 I think the West

00:58:41.260 is the attempt

00:58:44.200 to if I had to

00:58:45.740 try and summarize

00:58:46.360 the West what an

00:58:47.220 audacious thing to

00:58:48.000 try and do

00:58:48.440 see Ruck said

00:58:50.000 that because I

00:58:51.040 asked him why

00:58:51.860 Dionysus transformed

00:58:53.060 into Christ because

00:58:54.000 we were answering

00:58:54.640 simple questions too

00:58:55.760 and he said well

00:58:56.500 Greece meant

00:58:57.060 Judaism

00:58:58.380 yeah but Judaism

00:59:00.100 also meant Greece

00:59:01.760 I mean final

00:59:02.780 starts theology

00:59:03.840 because of the

00:59:05.000 interaction with

00:59:07.080 Platonic philosophy

00:59:08.660 I think

00:59:09.680 Christianity is

00:59:11.220 trying to integrate

00:59:12.280 Agape and Logos

00:59:13.380 together

00:59:13.780 that's how I try to

00:59:15.000 understand his

00:59:15.620 project

00:59:16.160 and whether or not

00:59:17.280 the West

00:59:17.600 please clarify

00:59:18.380 please clarify that

00:59:19.760 claim

00:59:20.140 sure

00:59:20.660 so I think

00:59:21.880 I mean we've

00:59:22.400 talked a lot about

00:59:23.140 the Greek heritage

00:59:24.000 of Logos

00:59:24.640 and Logos is also

00:59:25.500 central

00:59:25.980 within

00:59:27.720 especially in the

00:59:29.380 book of John

00:59:30.060 yeah especially in

00:59:31.100 the book of John

00:59:31.780 and saying that

00:59:33.340 metaphorically with

00:59:34.160 regard to you as

00:59:34.980 well

00:59:35.320 but also in the

00:59:37.280 epistle of John

00:59:38.260 is where John also

00:59:39.900 said God is Agape

00:59:41.300 right and then

00:59:42.840 that's the epistle

00:59:43.440 of John he makes

00:59:44.220 that famous statement

00:59:45.100 and and the idea

00:59:46.560 is there's something

00:59:47.480 there's something

00:59:48.420 about the way the

00:59:49.000 Logos gathers things

00:59:50.260 together so they

00:59:51.040 belong together

00:59:51.780 that's the original

00:59:52.480 so that everything

00:59:53.180 comes together

00:59:54.060 everything comes

00:59:54.880 together and then

00:59:55.720 there's the idea

00:59:56.760 in Plato of the

00:59:58.460 ascent from the

00:59:59.040 cave the Anagoga

01:00:00.000 you and Jonathan

01:00:00.620 talked about this

01:00:01.440 the world discloses

01:00:02.840 itself to me

01:00:03.760 that transforms

01:00:04.700 me and then I

01:00:06.200 can see more

01:00:06.920 deeply into the

01:00:07.620 world then that

01:00:08.680 transforms me and

01:00:09.560 I do this reciprocal

01:00:10.480 opening and the

01:00:11.880 thing is that's

01:00:12.580 very much if you

01:00:13.440 you know you

01:00:14.060 know Agape

01:00:14.880 that's do you

01:00:15.780 define that that's

01:00:16.780 love yeah

01:00:17.700 accelerating mutual

01:00:19.620 disclosure is how

01:00:20.500 it's even

01:00:20.780 well it seemed to

01:00:22.300 me well it seemed

01:00:23.440 to me that that

01:00:24.360 the relationship

01:00:25.280 between truth and

01:00:26.220 love is that love

01:00:27.040 is the is the

01:00:27.860 something like the

01:00:28.740 goal and truth

01:00:29.520 is its servant

01:00:30.340 it seems to me

01:00:31.520 to be so because

01:00:32.540 I so this is how

01:00:34.020 I've worked it on

01:00:34.660 my in my mind

01:00:35.620 is that well I

01:00:37.260 think the truth is

01:00:38.120 the best servant

01:00:39.080 of reality truth

01:00:40.560 is the servant of

01:00:41.400 reality and reality

01:00:43.000 I think best

01:00:45.320 manifests itself

01:00:46.240 as love

01:00:46.840 well what are the

01:00:48.500 slogans I have

01:00:49.400 in my that's why

01:00:50.380 this power claim is

01:00:51.620 so abhorrent to me

01:00:52.740 the claim that

01:00:53.700 power is the

01:00:54.400 central motivating

01:00:55.800 factor for the

01:00:56.940 western endeavor

01:00:58.420 is tandem

01:00:59.420 I believe to

01:01:00.120 saying that it's

01:01:00.660 the basic endeavor

01:01:02.020 of the human

01:01:02.540 species and I

01:01:03.340 think that's

01:01:03.740 opposite of the

01:01:04.460 truth I think

01:01:05.100 this Agape is

01:01:06.120 and Logos is

01:01:08.700 more accurate and

01:01:09.740 so it's not just a

01:01:10.800 counterclaim it's an

01:01:11.740 antithesis

01:01:12.480 well I'm trying to

01:01:15.440 pick up on what

01:01:16.420 you're saying here

01:01:17.340 I mean I

01:01:18.340 you know I'm

01:01:19.100 trying to touch on

01:01:19.900 the culture wars

01:01:20.680 obviously

01:01:21.240 well that's

01:01:22.740 yeah I mean I

01:01:24.760 think I mean

01:01:26.380 for me you're

01:01:27.780 saying something

01:01:28.240 very analogous to

01:01:29.360 a critique that

01:01:29.980 I've built in

01:01:31.160 Awakening from the

01:01:31.800 Meaning Crisis

01:01:32.340 oh let's hear it

01:01:33.720 man well

01:01:34.620 shut up

01:01:35.620 no it's okay

01:01:36.660 I mean like I

01:01:38.760 was going to say

01:01:39.200 one of my

01:01:39.680 signatures is you

01:01:40.760 know the it's in

01:01:41.560 Latin but it

01:01:42.100 translates as love

01:01:43.220 is its own way of

01:01:43.900 knowing and the

01:01:44.600 kind of knowing

01:01:45.180 there is is like

01:01:45.900 noticing like

01:01:47.120 news

01:01:47.700 great

01:01:48.660 that's the

01:01:49.720 Egyptian eye

01:01:50.640 well yes

01:01:51.680 it's noticing

01:01:52.480 it's not thinking

01:01:53.400 it's attention

01:01:54.100 and maybe you're

01:01:55.400 tying that with

01:01:56.020 that revelation

01:01:56.700 of the form

01:01:57.460 you're tying that

01:01:58.180 to that revelation

01:01:58.860 of the form

01:01:59.380 and that conforming

01:02:00.320 yeah and that's

01:02:01.720 exactly it

01:02:02.220 that's exactly it

01:02:02.920 it's it's it's

01:02:04.180 and this is very

01:02:05.100 similar to the

01:02:05.660 Buddhist idea of

01:02:06.720 that the the

01:02:08.140 what you're trying

01:02:08.960 to do is shape

01:02:09.740 attention and

01:02:10.360 mindfulness so that

01:02:11.540 you get that

01:02:12.820 reciprocal opening

01:02:13.820 so that your

01:02:14.580 your self-knowledge

01:02:15.840 and the knowledge

01:02:16.520 of the of the

01:02:17.400 world are become

01:02:18.440 indistinguishable

01:02:20.000 become interpenetrating

01:02:21.120 like what you have

01:02:22.620 when you really

01:02:23.580 love somebody in

01:02:24.600 a committed

01:02:24.980 long-term

01:02:25.420 relationship

01:02:26.020 you're knowing

01:02:26.820 of yourself

01:02:27.420 and you're knowing

01:02:27.960 of them become

01:02:28.620 bound up

01:02:29.440 because you

01:02:30.000 indwell them

01:02:30.900 and you

01:02:31.500 internalize them

01:02:32.460 and they indwell

01:02:33.420 you and internalize

01:02:34.500 you right

01:02:35.060 and and how

01:02:36.500 much how much

01:02:37.320 death of the

01:02:38.220 old you has

01:02:39.240 this involved

01:02:39.940 for you

01:02:40.420 I know that's

01:02:42.080 a strange

01:02:42.440 question

01:02:42.860 no it's a

01:02:43.600 good question

01:02:44.240 it's a damn

01:02:44.840 good question

01:02:45.620 why

01:02:46.280 it's a good

01:02:47.200 question because

01:02:48.200 it brings up

01:02:49.440 the idea of

01:02:50.600 the fact that

01:02:51.840 there is a

01:02:52.560 level of

01:02:53.320 knowing that

01:02:54.160 deals with

01:02:54.940 the process

01:02:55.620 of identification

01:02:56.540 itself in both

01:02:57.680 senses of the

01:02:58.260 word identifying

01:02:59.080 designating something

01:03:00.720 and assuming an

01:03:01.660 identity in both

01:03:03.180 those senses of

01:03:03.900 identification the

01:03:04.740 kind of knowing

01:03:05.440 that I most care

01:03:06.200 about this

01:03:06.860 participatory knowing

01:03:07.980 involves in

01:03:09.260 identification and

01:03:10.720 therefore if we're

01:03:11.360 talking about the

01:03:12.280 transformation at

01:03:13.400 that level we're

01:03:14.420 talking about

01:03:15.220 like that's what I

01:03:16.400 mean about when I

01:03:17.480 talk about knowing

01:03:18.400 knowing yourself I

01:03:19.700 don't mean

01:03:20.180 representing yourself I

01:03:21.200 mean the knowing

01:03:21.840 that constitutes you

01:03:22.980 as a self and

01:03:23.980 that's what's

01:03:24.660 undergoing the

01:03:25.200 transformation when

01:03:26.460 you're engaged in

01:03:27.140 participatory knowing

01:03:27.920 when I really love

01:03:28.960 my partner right I'm

01:03:31.060 not just forming

01:03:31.620 what does it mean

01:03:32.320 that you love them

01:03:33.140 do you think if you

01:03:34.160 had to express that

01:03:35.240 how would you express

01:03:36.400 that well I mean

01:03:38.780 it means a lot it

01:03:39.860 means that reciprocal

01:03:40.540 opening I was talking

01:03:41.600 about but it means

01:03:42.380 that I I mean it's

01:03:46.080 like what Eckhart

01:03:46.760 says and again I

01:03:47.900 don't mean to be

01:03:48.400 pretentious like you

01:03:49.220 you know he said you

01:03:49.860 have to make a space

01:03:50.540 I don't think you're

01:03:51.240 going to be able to

01:03:51.740 help it in this

01:03:52.460 conversation yeah

01:03:53.980 that's true that's

01:03:54.760 fair enough he says

01:03:55.760 you know you have to

01:03:56.360 God forgive us the

01:03:57.680 goal of lineland

01:03:59.140 mysticism was to this

01:04:00.660 kind of receptivity you

01:04:02.060 have to make a space so

01:04:03.060 that the son of God can

01:04:04.180 be born within you and

01:04:05.560 and again no not being

01:04:06.940 disreligious you know

01:04:08.220 irreligious but for me

01:04:09.920 to to love my partner is

01:04:11.620 to cultivate that kind of

01:04:13.200 receptivity a space in

01:04:14.580 which she can be within

01:04:16.380 me and I don't mean in

01:04:17.420 any room purely romantic

01:04:19.180 metaphorical sense what

01:04:20.140 I mean is she finds a

01:04:21.860 purchase within me

01:04:22.780 whereby she can realize

01:04:24.480 herself in both senses of

01:04:26.000 the word realize and and

01:04:27.600 she can come to trust that

01:04:29.520 that space that place of

01:04:31.200 realization will always be

01:04:33.160 available for her and she

01:04:35.040 can come to rely on it a

01:04:36.360 place through which she

01:04:37.520 can transcend herself when

01:04:38.800 she needs to I mean and

01:04:41.320 and being and being committed

01:04:42.900 to that and finding that

01:04:44.740 inseparably bound up with

01:04:46.340 my own project of trying

01:04:48.500 to realize who I am that's

01:04:50.780 for me the core of what it

01:04:52.640 is to love somebody

01:04:53.600 that's great I wish you

01:04:59.020 luck with it well that's

01:05:00.960 all we can ever wish

01:05:01.720 anybody I mean if you're if

01:05:03.500 you're the grace of God or

01:05:05.980 or yeah or or that there is

01:05:09.000 a life to this relationship

01:05:10.800 that will eventually grow

01:05:12.900 strong enough that we can

01:05:13.940 come to trust in it as

01:05:15.500 much as we trust in each

01:05:16.540 other and that's what I

01:05:17.640 believe is happening for

01:05:18.760 me and I think there's

01:05:25.260 kind of three loves

01:05:26.020 involved and they're all

01:05:26.920 bound up together there's

01:05:28.040 you know Socratic self

01:05:29.540 love not narcissistic self

01:05:31.040 love there's the love of

01:05:32.700 the other and then there's

01:05:33.500 the love of the

01:05:34.000 relationship but but but

01:05:35.520 talk that's for me is like

01:05:36.700 a trinity talking about if

01:05:37.860 those are separate is the

01:05:39.260 mistake you have to talk

01:05:40.500 about it analytically as if

01:05:41.640 they're separate but they

01:05:42.340 interpenetrate and inter

01:05:43.900 afford each other in a

01:05:44.900 profound way they become

01:05:46.260 they become in an important

01:05:47.700 sense indistinguishable from

01:05:49.160 each other well think about

01:05:50.360 this admiration is the

01:05:51.740 instinct to emulate okay so

01:05:54.620 then we look for the most

01:05:55.780 emulatable that's the

01:05:57.940 ultimate spirit and and I

01:05:59.940 think Gerard is right that

01:06:01.100 that that always carries with

01:06:02.400 it the dark side of memetic

01:06:04.300 envy and covetousness and

01:06:06.760 that those two are always

01:06:07.680 playing off against each

01:06:08.780 other because because we

01:06:10.600 think we can possess it by

01:06:12.560 by by ill god means yes

01:06:15.900 that's the story of Cain yes

01:06:17.700 yes and of course that's

01:06:18.860 carried with us because the

01:06:20.020 story of human history is the

01:06:21.460 battle between Abel and Cain

01:06:22.780 which is also why I asked you

01:06:24.880 about this fundamental

01:06:26.140 cultural crisis that's tearing

01:06:28.940 us apart and I was that a

01:06:30.760 man of and you said well

01:06:31.680 that's a manifestation of

01:06:32.860 deeper things and that's well

01:06:34.140 that's what I asked too yeah

01:06:35.920 and that's and I and I hope

01:06:37.720 that what we've been doing is

01:06:38.820 actually my answer to to

01:06:40.860 that all I can say more

01:06:43.320 about because I've been I've

01:06:44.780 been involved and I'm

01:06:45.880 involved in some actual

01:06:47.240 experiments on awe and the

01:06:49.020 effects on cognition and some

01:06:51.040 of the work I don't know if

01:06:52.060 what we've been doing is the

01:06:53.120 answer to that or the

01:06:54.120 antidote to that to which

01:06:55.880 sorry well if the question is

01:06:58.060 posed wrong we can't really

01:07:00.580 answer it can we we have to

01:07:02.140 provide an alternative

01:07:03.020 formulation but that's what I

01:07:05.340 think we're doing here

01:07:06.280 yeah so it's an antidote

01:07:07.660 rather than an answer and

01:07:09.740 that's fine and I know I

01:07:11.480 know I just clarifying it

01:07:12.840 I'm I'm I think I think

01:07:14.960 looking for the answer is in

01:07:17.600 some sense a fundamental way

01:07:19.220 of misframing it that is to

01:07:20.740 that is to give in to the

01:07:22.020 problem how do we address it

01:07:23.520 then how do we address it

01:07:25.240 John do we just by step it

01:07:26.580 and just offer the

01:07:27.480 alternative no no the

01:07:28.860 thing about this that's a

01:07:30.500 genuine question because

01:07:31.520 perhaps we do just by

01:07:33.040 sidestep it and offer the

01:07:34.760 alternative yes that's what

01:07:36.340 I'm saying

01:07:36.780 you

The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast - November 18, 2021

202. Meaning, Awe and Conceptualization of God - pt. 2

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