The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast - 212. Jordan Peterson, God, and Christianity with Word on Fire

00:00:00.960 Hey everyone, real quick before you skip, I want to talk to you about something serious and important.

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00:00:50.980 Welcome to the JBP Podcast, Season 4, Episode 69. I'm Mikayla Peterson.

00:01:00.120 There's this new book titled, Jordan Peterson, God and Christianity, The Search for a Meaningful Life.

00:01:06.980 The authors are today's guests, Christopher Kayser and Matthew R. Petrasek.

00:01:12.400 And their book is the first systematic analysis of 12 Rules for Life and Dad's Biblical Series from a Christian Perspective.

00:01:19.640 In this episode, you'll hear a lot about meaning and suffering, truth in fiction, time before consciousness, evolution, religion, acting ethically, and hell.

00:01:32.260 Dr. Kayser is a professor of philosophy at Loyola Merriment University, and like our other guest, Dr. Petrasek, he's a fellow at the Word on Fire Institute.

00:01:43.300 Dr. Kayser has won a Templeton grant.

00:01:45.780 He's written many scholarly articles and books.

00:01:47.840 He's a Fulbright scholar who holds a Ph.D. from the University of Notre Dame.

00:01:52.880 Dr. Matthew R. Petrasek is an associate professor at Loyola Merriment University in L.A.,

00:01:59.340 who holds a master's from Yale and a Ph.D. from the University of Chicago.

00:02:04.180 Even though Dr. Petrasek specializes in Christian ethics and moral theology,

00:02:09.200 he gives lectures on a range of interesting topics related to philosophy, theology, and the Catholic intellectual tradition.

00:02:15.280 I hope you enjoy today's episode.

00:02:17.340 Hello, everyone.

00:02:37.340 I'm pleased to have with me today Dr. Christopher Kayser and Dr. Matthew Petrasek.

00:02:42.880 They're both working at Loyola Merriment University, and they recently co-authored a book called Jordan Peterson, God and Christianity,

00:02:54.820 The Search for a Meaningful Life, which is definitely a title that I would never have imagined existing.

00:03:01.840 So I decided to talk to them today to see what sort of useful discussion we might have about that book,

00:03:12.320 but about Christian issues more broadly, religious issues more broadly, cultural issues.

00:03:19.600 Dr. Kayser is a professor of philosophy and a fellow of the Word on Fire Institute, which we'll discuss a little later.

00:03:27.380 He graduated from the honours program of Boston College and earned his Ph.D. four years later from the University of Notre Dame.

00:03:35.560 He was a Fulbright scholar who did postdoctoral work as an Alexander von Humboldt German Chancellor Fellow at the University of Cologne.

00:03:43.580 He was appointed a corresponding member of the Pontifical Academy for Life of Vatican City and William E. Simon Visiting Fellow in the James Madison Program at Princeton University.

00:03:58.080 The winner of a Templeton grant, Templeton funds research into the intersection between religion and science, among other things.

00:04:05.100 He's written more than 100 scholarly articles and book chapters and is also the author of 16 books, including the one that I mentioned earlier.

00:04:13.760 Dr. Petrusik received his M.A. in Religious Ethics from Yale and a Ph.D. in the same field from the University of Chicago.

00:04:22.300 He is currently Associate Professor of Theological Ethics and serves as a Word on Fire Institute Fellow as well.

00:04:28.860 In addition to numerous articles, he has authored, co-authored, and co-edited several books.

00:04:35.660 He's bilingual, English, Spanish, and lectures broadly on topics in ethics, the Catholic intellectual tradition, and the intersection between Christian theology and philosophy.

00:04:46.020 So, welcome, gentlemen. Thank you very much for agreeing to speak with me today and for your careful work as well.

00:04:54.500 So, I guess I'd like to start by asking you, as I mentioned in the intro,

00:05:02.240 I never had really envisioned being included in a book like the one that you just wrote.

00:05:11.240 And I have noted that a variety of religious thinkers have commented on my lectures and work.

00:05:20.620 And I'm wondering why you felt compelled to put all the time and effort into this.

00:05:26.460 I mean, it's a major undertaking to write a book.

00:05:29.240 And so, why this book? What's the motivation?

00:05:32.500 Well, I followed closely your lectures on Genesis.

00:05:36.700 And when I was listening to them, I was really fascinated because, again and again,

00:05:40.560 I saw themes that I had read earlier in the Church Fathers, people like Augustine, Chrysostom, Origen.

00:05:48.960 And you were reading Scripture according to what's called the moral reading of Scripture,

00:05:54.700 where you're looking at the story of, say, Cain and Abel.

00:05:57.040 And your primary question isn't, was there actually two brothers, someone named Cain and someone named Abel?

00:06:03.640 You're not so much looking for the historical facts, you might say, in terms of Cain and Abel.

00:06:07.600 But rather, you're looking at that story in terms of what universal lessons the story has for us today.

00:06:14.740 And that moral reading of Scripture is something that is very, very common in the Christian tradition of biblical reading.

00:06:23.480 And so, I thought that was super interesting.

00:06:25.080 And then I also thought it was interesting how you were bringing to bear all kinds of other resources when looking at these stories.

00:06:31.260 So, you would bring in evolutionary psychology, you'd bring in Russian novels, you'd bring in all these things that would seem to be foreign to the biblical text.

00:06:43.000 But in a way, that too was something that was very traditional.

00:06:46.020 In other words, if you look at people like Augustine, he'll say that all truth is from God.

00:06:50.860 And so, bringing in any truth from any field is perfectly legitimate in his view in terms of trying to understand Scripture.

00:06:59.440 Because he thinks that God is the ultimate author of two books, the book of Revelation, Scripture, but also the book of creation.

00:07:07.620 So, everything in creation can help inform our understanding of Scripture, and Scripture can help inform our understanding of creation.

00:07:14.320 So, these lectures, I really enjoyed them.

00:07:16.980 And it seemed to me that what you were doing in a certain way was reinventing, representing again in a new and fresh way, the insights that were found in these older thinkers.

00:07:27.780 And the fact that so many young people, especially young people who call themselves atheists, or agnostics, or religiousists, the fact that so many of these people were fascinated by our lectures and drawn to them.

00:07:39.240 And as you know, so many comments on YouTube would say things like, I thought the Bible was a kind of stupid old collection of naive stories, totally meaningless for contemporary life.

00:07:50.100 But after hearing your lectures on Genesis, now I see how these stories have perennial and are extremely important and insightful for navigating life.

00:07:58.940 And so, you know, for me, what I wanted to do in the book is both bring out these resonances with these earlier figures, but also to try to show how these earlier figures actually, in my view, develop and enhance some of your own insights and move them further down the road, as it were.

00:08:16.300 So, I thought that it would be useful to bring these reflections together in the book.

00:08:20.760 Yeah, I have the same intellectual reasons as well for engaging your work.

00:08:28.920 Basically, I think we're trying to speak to two audiences at the same time.

00:08:32.220 One is to your massive audience, to speak to them through your work, that the ideas that you've been engaging with such verve and such power and such clarity not only resonate with the biblical context,

00:08:48.540 but in fact, this is where, from our point of view, they find their fullest expression.

00:08:54.580 And so, to that audience, we want to see, look a little bit deeper, look a little bit broader.

00:08:59.280 We're also speaking, though, to Christian audiences as well, to see, look at the work that Jordan Peterson is doing.

00:09:04.660 Perhaps he doesn't see it this way, but he's a serious theologian, and he's opening pathways and opening modes of communication that can help us more clearly communicate some of these biblical truths as well.

00:09:18.540 I also have a personal reason for it.

00:09:20.280 I began watching you.

00:09:21.840 Actually, Chris introduced me to your work, and I began watching your work online, everything you put out and watch.

00:09:28.720 And what I found so fascinating is, from my point of view, you exhibit a lot of the Christian virtue of courage, and people were attracted to that.

00:09:39.940 They were attracted to hearing truths, including very hard truths.

00:09:44.000 And I thought, I want to dig deeper to see what this phenomena, what's been called the Jordan Peterson phenomena, really is.

00:09:49.660 Yeah, this is a strange thing for me, the popularity of those biblical lectures.

00:09:58.260 I mean, it came as a shock.

00:10:01.160 You know, I joked with some people when I first rented the theater in Toronto to put the lectures on.

00:10:09.680 And I thought, I said, if I had gone to a bank for a loan and told them that my business plan was to do 15 two-hour lectures on Genesis, mostly to young men,

00:10:24.480 and that I was going to charge them to come to a theater and sit through that, they would have laughed me out of there because it's such a preposterous proposition.

00:10:34.340 And yet, it seemed to work, and the lectures have been quite popular online, and they seem to have attracted attention from religious and non-religious people,

00:10:45.160 but basically in the religious vein, right?

00:10:47.400 Even the atheists who've been watching are pulled in by what is essentially the religious content.

00:10:55.160 I guess part of the question is, you know, exactly what is that religious content?

00:10:58.860 That's something we could talk about in depth.

00:11:01.720 I mean, the fact that my thinking is influenced by these church fathers, the church fathers and other historical figures that you discuss,

00:11:12.120 I guess I get that secondhand in some sense, right?

00:11:14.880 And probably primarily through Jung, Carl Jung.

00:11:18.420 He was unbelievably educated, and I saturated myself in his work.

00:11:23.600 And he was, of course, incredibly influenced by the thinkers that you talk about in the book.

00:11:29.900 And so, and you mentioned, Dr. Kaysor, that, you know, I was putting old ideas into a new package,

00:11:37.680 and, you know, it's very important to note that that's true, is that, you know, truly original ideas are very rare.

00:11:48.740 And so, much of what we think of as original is, it's built into the structure of our culture in ways we don't understand,

00:11:58.560 and then manifests itself within us.

00:12:01.140 And that's certainly the case with these biblical stories.

00:12:05.040 And I wanted to make another comment, too, about truth.

00:12:08.940 You know, Dr. Kaysor, you mentioned that I engage in a moral reading of scripture,

00:12:13.440 rather than a literalist reading.

00:12:16.740 And maybe we should have a talk about that, because it isn't easy to read a book like the Bible literally,

00:12:23.440 because it's full of literal contradictions.

00:12:28.860 And whatever it is, especially the really archaic stories in Genesis,

00:12:33.660 whatever it is, it's not history the way we think of history.

00:12:39.000 And so that's hard for people, it's hard for people to see how that might still be true.

00:12:46.980 If it's not literal, how can it be true?

00:12:49.960 And this is a discussion that I tried to have with Sam Harris a lot.

00:12:54.480 Because the atheist types, the rationalist types, there's something they miss,

00:12:59.860 and what they miss is that fiction isn't false.

00:13:05.120 It's not a lie, right?

00:13:07.120 It's not literal, but it's not a lie.

00:13:11.060 And great fiction is true, but it never happened.

00:13:14.540 So how can it be true?

00:13:16.740 And the answer to that is something like, well, there are patterns in things,

00:13:22.140 deep patterns, deep recurring patterns.

00:13:25.920 You know, human nature, the fact that we're human,

00:13:29.360 that the humanity itself is a recurring pattern.

00:13:32.240 It has characteristic shape, and great fiction describes the shape of that pattern.

00:13:40.760 And the greatest of fiction, the greater fiction becomes the more it is religious in nature.

00:13:45.940 And that's not even a claim about the nature of truth.

00:13:51.040 It's more a claim about the nature of experience.

00:13:53.440 You know, when we say something is profound,

00:13:56.820 what we mean is that it's moving,

00:14:00.440 and that it has a broad influence.

00:14:03.920 It's capable of having a broad influence on the way we think and see and act.

00:14:08.360 So if you read a profound book, like one of Dostoevsky's books,

00:14:12.560 you could say of that book, and people often do,

00:14:15.460 that it changed my life when I read that book.

00:14:18.700 And a story that can change your life has a power that is best described as religious.

00:14:26.780 And so religious is a kind of experience, in some sense,

00:14:29.920 rather in addition to a claim about what constitutes truth.

00:14:33.720 And then those stories in Genesis, Cain and Abel, I think,

00:14:38.300 and the story of Adam and Eve,

00:14:39.580 because those stories are so deep that it's almost unfathomable.

00:14:44.480 They get at the most profound of patterns.

00:14:48.820 And so to say that they're literally true

00:14:51.080 is actually to massively underestimate how true they are.

00:14:56.300 Because you could tell me what you did this morning,

00:14:59.100 and that would be literally true, but, like, who cares?

00:15:02.040 Whereas if you read the story of Adam and Eve,

00:15:05.820 it's so true that it applies to everyone always.

00:15:10.740 And mere literal truth can't do that.

00:15:13.320 And we don't have a good language as scientists, let's say,

00:15:16.500 as psychologists, or even as citizens.

00:15:19.320 We don't have a good language for that kind of truth.

00:15:24.300 And so, well, I guess I'd like your thoughts about that idea.

00:15:29.160 Yeah, so the literal sense of Scripture

00:15:33.380 is sometimes misunderstood by people.

00:15:35.760 And I think that the right way to think of it,

00:15:37.560 the literal sense of Scripture,

00:15:38.680 is what the original human author intended to convey

00:15:41.580 to the original human audience.

00:15:44.260 And so if we're looking at Genesis,

00:15:45.660 I think that we need to put Genesis back in its context.

00:15:48.480 If you read Genesis as if it is a contemporary textbook on science,

00:15:53.220 I think what you're doing is wrenching it out of its original context,

00:15:57.900 and therefore you're bound to misread it.

00:16:00.200 And that's true of not just Genesis,

00:16:01.860 it's really true of any work,

00:16:03.020 that to understand it we need to understand its genre,

00:16:05.660 and we need to understand its context.

00:16:07.940 So what is the original context of the Genesis story?

00:16:11.020 Well, the original context,

00:16:12.240 it was written in terms of rival stories of creation,

00:16:16.020 other stories that were circulating in the ancient world,

00:16:18.500 and it was meant to be an answer to those.

00:16:20.200 And it uses poetry, it uses imagery,

00:16:23.320 and that was what all those stories did.

00:16:26.160 And the poetry and the imagery,

00:16:27.540 I would not set that against truth,

00:16:29.800 as if on the one hand you have truth,

00:16:31.300 on the other hand you have poetry, imagery, and story.

00:16:33.740 I think that one kind of truth is scientific truth,

00:16:37.040 the empirically verifiable,

00:16:38.600 but I think it's too narrow to say,

00:16:39.960 well, the only kind of truth is the empirically verifiable.

00:16:43.660 I think truth actually is broader.

00:16:45.640 And in fact, that claim that the truth

00:16:49.560 is empirically verifiable,

00:16:50.560 that's the only kind of truth,

00:16:52.060 that is itself a self-defeating statement, right?

00:16:55.360 There's no empirical evidence

00:16:56.440 that the only way to get the truth

00:16:59.140 is through the empirical method.

00:17:00.880 So if we put Genesis back in its context,

00:17:02.900 what do we see?

00:17:03.480 Well, we see it is a story telling us about,

00:17:07.200 in contrast to the other stories,

00:17:08.700 the other stories in the ancient world

00:17:09.880 were stories in which there were multiple gods,

00:17:12.980 they engaged in a warfare and violence.

00:17:16.180 So you think of the Greek myths sort of like this,

00:17:18.220 where Zeus overthrows his father

00:17:20.180 and there's all this violence.

00:17:22.000 And Genesis is meant to answer

00:17:23.620 these other ancient myths.

00:17:26.400 And it's saying things like,

00:17:27.480 there's only one God,

00:17:29.660 there's not multiple.

00:17:31.360 Secondly, that creation is not a matter of violence,

00:17:34.800 but that the creation is reasonable speech.

00:17:37.780 And this was something that you talked about

00:17:38.980 in your lecture,

00:17:39.720 which really struck me

00:17:41.200 because I obviously had read that story before,

00:17:43.400 but I never really thought of it,

00:17:44.960 that, well, creation arises, right?

00:17:48.400 God says, let there be light and there was light.

00:17:51.480 And what is reasonable speech?

00:17:53.040 Reasonable speech is orderly, right?

00:17:56.420 The difference between, you know,

00:17:57.680 random sounds you make and reasonable speech

00:17:59.620 is that there's a kind of order to it.

00:18:01.260 So if creation arises from reasonable speech

00:18:04.420 and the creation itself is ordered,

00:18:06.300 it's intelligible, it makes sense.

00:18:08.980 And that gives rise centuries and centuries later,

00:18:12.280 that belief that creation is orderly and makes sense

00:18:14.400 gives rise centuries later to science.

00:18:17.140 But to read Genesis as if it's failed science

00:18:20.660 makes about as much sense as to read Genesis

00:18:22.740 as if it's, you know, for or against iPhones.

00:18:27.000 I mean, imagine somebody reading Genesis

00:18:28.140 and they're like, well, is this,

00:18:29.000 should I buy an iPhone or not?

00:18:29.820 I'm not going to read Genesis to determine this.

00:18:31.660 Well, clearly the original author of Genesis

00:18:34.100 wasn't addressing that.

00:18:35.820 And the original author of Genesis

00:18:37.120 wasn't addressing for or against evolution.

00:18:40.360 So I think that these readers

00:18:41.720 who want to make it for or against evolution

00:18:44.620 are just utterly misreading

00:18:46.640 and taking the story out of its original context

00:18:50.300 and therefore necessarily providing

00:18:53.260 a really bad reading of Genesis.

00:18:55.200 There's also a really important theological point

00:18:57.920 to make here as well.

00:18:59.160 And that's, I could put it philosophically,

00:19:01.440 what's the condition for the possibility

00:19:03.860 of something being literal in the first place?

00:19:07.880 What's the condition for the possibility

00:19:09.480 both of it being recognized, spoken,

00:19:12.980 and then apprehended?

00:19:15.100 There's a certain court of orderliness

00:19:17.140 that's necessarily presupposed in the act of knowing

00:19:20.620 and in the act of communicating that knowledge

00:19:23.940 that itself, as Chris said,

00:19:25.720 can't be empirically verified.

00:19:27.640 So when we as Catholics say that,

00:19:30.660 recognize from the New Testament

00:19:33.340 that Jesus is the truth,

00:19:35.960 that would include in a literal historical sense,

00:19:38.740 but also the condition for the possibility

00:19:40.900 of anything being intelligible

00:19:43.460 and literally understood and communicated at all.

00:19:47.340 So I think one of the frustrations

00:19:49.240 I find in contemporary debates on these questions

00:19:51.940 is that secularism oftentimes isolates

00:19:55.440 and identifies the literal, the empirical,

00:19:57.540 as if this is just a freestanding epistemic platform

00:20:00.560 that belongs to them.

00:20:02.260 And everybody has to compete

00:20:04.700 in order to be on their territory.

00:20:06.940 And I just don't think that's philosophically the case.

00:20:09.160 It presupposes a lot of things

00:20:10.900 that they can't give an account for.

00:20:13.200 Yeah.

00:20:13.720 I mean, so one more little...

00:20:15.780 Yep.

00:20:16.340 Please go ahead.

00:20:17.440 No, I just was just going to add one thing.

00:20:19.080 So imagine somebody was reading

00:20:20.460 Shakespeare's Sonnet 18, right?

00:20:22.980 Shall I compare thee to a summer's day?

00:20:24.900 Thou art more lovely and more temperate.

00:20:27.040 Rough winds do shake the darling buds of May,

00:20:30.060 and summer's lease hath all too short a date.

00:20:32.340 So imagine somebody reads that,

00:20:33.680 and they're like, okay,

00:20:34.700 Shakespeare's a meteorologist.

00:20:37.120 He's a weatherman.

00:20:37.900 And I'm going to look up in the Almanac

00:20:39.260 to see if May had rough winds.

00:20:41.420 And that turns out there's no rough winds in May.

00:20:43.380 Oh, Shakespeare, you're about it,

00:20:44.780 you know, telling us about the weather.

00:20:46.780 Well, I think that's obviously

00:20:48.400 a radical misunderstanding of Shakespeare.

00:20:50.520 He's not trying to tell us the weather

00:20:52.420 and then failing to tell us the weather.

00:20:54.200 And so I think Genesis is not trying and failing

00:20:56.300 to give us scientific truths.

00:20:58.760 It's just doing something totally different.

00:21:00.480 And that's part of the reason

00:21:01.260 I appreciated your lectures,

00:21:03.000 is that you highlighted the reality

00:21:06.140 that the author of Genesis is trying not to,

00:21:09.620 is trying to communicate very important truths,

00:21:11.620 but not truths that are in the scientific discourse.

00:21:17.220 They're true, but not scientific truths.

00:21:19.300 Because the problem with the empirical approach,

00:21:24.800 the problem with totalizing it,

00:21:26.660 is that the empirical approach

00:21:28.680 tends to be mostly descriptions of things

00:21:33.280 and the way they interact

00:21:34.420 and the way they can be manipulated.

00:21:36.040 And that's fine, but doesn't tell you,

00:21:39.360 doesn't provide any real insight

00:21:41.920 into how to live, how to act,

00:21:43.820 how to take your next step,

00:21:45.260 how to produce a hierarchy of values

00:21:49.020 and how to determine what's most important

00:21:51.760 and what's least important.

00:21:53.140 And all of that is also so difficult

00:21:56.920 that we actually don't know how to do it

00:21:59.260 completely explicitly,

00:22:01.280 which is why we need poetry

00:22:03.380 and drama and literature.

00:22:04.740 We need that whole domain.

00:22:06.200 So we could call that the literary domain.

00:22:08.060 And then I think you could consider it,

00:22:11.480 this might be an empirical proposition,

00:22:13.300 is that the religious domain

00:22:16.940 is at the base of the literary domain.

00:22:20.700 And as literature gets deeper,

00:22:23.200 it becomes more and more like religious writing.

00:22:26.220 And so that by definition, in some sense,

00:22:29.800 and I've swiped this in part,

00:22:31.220 I would say from Jung,

00:22:32.340 is almost by definition

00:22:34.120 that the sense of profound engagement

00:22:38.140 that the most profound literature produces

00:22:40.260 is what constitutes the religious.

00:22:43.920 And that's a domain of experience.

00:22:46.640 You know, when you're captivated in a movie theater,

00:22:49.160 when you're captivated by a story,

00:22:50.740 when you're taken outside yourself,

00:22:52.840 none of that has anything to do

00:22:54.260 with logical argumentation.

00:22:56.220 It's a whole different issue.

00:22:58.140 And to me, it's tied very, very deeply

00:23:00.420 to our ability to imitate and mimic.

00:23:04.600 And so we're really good at that,

00:23:06.000 way better than any other animal.

00:23:07.900 Like language is mimicry.

00:23:09.580 We use the same words.

00:23:11.640 And so we're mimicking each other.

00:23:13.500 But I can't mimic every person separately.

00:23:17.300 I have to extract out from each person

00:23:19.840 some essence of being that's admirable.

00:23:23.780 And I do that person after person.

00:23:25.900 And I try to imitate that.

00:23:28.040 And then that core thing that's admirable

00:23:30.960 that I imitate,

00:23:32.000 that's, as far as I'm concerned,

00:23:33.780 that's psychologically equivalent to Christ.

00:23:37.400 Whatever else Christ is,

00:23:39.100 Christ is,

00:23:40.700 that's why he's sometimes described

00:23:42.300 as the king of kings.

00:23:44.100 It's like, if the king is the thing

00:23:45.880 that's at the top of the hierarchy,

00:23:47.460 and then you look at all hierarchies,

00:23:49.240 and you take the thing that's at the top

00:23:51.460 of all hierarchies of value,

00:23:53.280 then that figure,

00:23:55.740 when you see reflections of that figure anywhere,

00:23:58.920 it produces awe and respect.

00:24:02.260 And that's because that pattern

00:24:03.840 constitutes the appropriate way to act,

00:24:05.920 just as when you see the opposite of that pattern,

00:24:08.520 which might be,

00:24:09.660 in its most fundamental essence,

00:24:11.260 satanic or demonic.

00:24:12.620 It's something that's ultimately evil.

00:24:14.200 that produces revulsion and terror.

00:24:17.300 And that's all instinctual.

00:24:21.020 It's not in the domain of rationality precisely.

00:24:24.180 It's way, way deeper than that.

00:24:26.700 And then there's another problem

00:24:30.760 that the atheists have never come to terms with,

00:24:33.680 I believe.

00:24:35.000 And you guys tell me what you think of this,

00:24:36.640 is that if what is properly rendered unto God

00:24:45.060 is rendered unto Caesar,

00:24:48.560 then Caesar becomes inflated to God.

00:24:52.700 And when that happens,

00:24:54.400 all hell breaks loose.

00:24:56.220 That's the genesis of totalitarianism.

00:24:58.880 That's subservience to an idol.

00:25:02.220 And this is a case I think the church needs to make,

00:25:05.740 particularly the Catholic church,

00:25:07.980 in the most strenuous of ways,

00:25:09.680 is that if we don't segregate off

00:25:12.680 the religious instinct

00:25:13.940 and give it its proper attention and do,

00:25:17.820 which I suppose you do in part with ritual

00:25:19.920 and church attendance and so forth,

00:25:22.160 then every single thing we do

00:25:24.220 starts to become inappropriately contaminated

00:25:26.520 with religious longing.

00:25:28.760 And that's why you see the rise

00:25:30.080 of extremely powerful political ideologies

00:25:32.620 and the division of people.

00:25:34.600 You know, for trivial reasons,

00:25:36.640 into moral camps.

00:25:38.200 It's that religious instinct

00:25:39.940 hasn't got a grounding in it.

00:25:42.160 It's searching for something

00:25:43.600 to attach itself to,

00:25:44.940 and it picks up second-rate substitutes.

00:25:47.960 You know, people like Dawkins,

00:25:49.940 they seem to think that

00:25:51.020 if we all just abandoned

00:25:52.840 our religious superstitions,

00:25:54.500 we'd all become, you know,

00:25:56.040 rationalists like,

00:25:57.740 well, like Isaac Newton,

00:26:00.020 who was an alchemist

00:26:01.120 and not a rationalist,

00:26:02.360 by the way,

00:26:03.380 that great genius.

00:26:05.360 And so,

00:26:06.540 one of the things I think

00:26:09.060 that the Catholic Church in particular

00:26:10.820 isn't doing a very good job of

00:26:12.360 is warning people

00:26:13.580 how dangerous it is

00:26:15.460 to lose

00:26:17.100 the proper theater of expression

00:26:21.620 for our religious instincts.

00:26:23.560 They don't go away.

00:26:25.480 They just get perverted,

00:26:27.080 and they show up

00:26:28.260 all sorts of places

00:26:29.120 they shouldn't.

00:26:30.180 That's terrible.

00:26:31.620 It's not good.

00:26:32.300 I'm always relieved

00:26:34.280 to get back from a trip

00:26:35.160 without any issues,

00:26:36.220 especially health issues,

00:26:37.500 which, as you might imagine,

00:26:39.080 I can't help but worry about

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00:26:41.380 and a long medical record of my own.

00:26:43.820 I actually learned recently

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00:26:49.180 I swear airplanes

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00:26:52.720 imagine you get sick abroad.

00:26:54.060 The stress,

00:26:54.640 the uncertainty,

00:26:55.640 the potential language barrier.

00:26:57.400 Let me tell you,

00:26:58.380 lining up in Serbia

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00:30:32.960 Yeah, that theme

00:30:37.160 is one that Augustine

00:30:38.080 talks about

00:30:38.740 in The City of God.

00:30:39.960 He talks about two loves

00:30:41.640 and he talks about

00:30:42.500 the love of God

00:30:43.220 and it creates

00:30:44.980 a certain city,

00:30:46.960 a certain organization.

00:30:48.660 And if you don't love God,

00:30:50.560 if God is not

00:30:51.060 your ultimate love,

00:30:52.080 well, you're going

00:30:52.460 to love something.

00:30:53.420 So it could be power,

00:30:54.940 it could be pleasure,

00:30:56.240 it could be money,

00:30:57.340 it could be status.

00:30:58.720 But Augustine thought

00:30:59.940 that if you love,

00:31:00.820 say, power the most,

00:31:03.080 well, what that's going

00:31:03.740 to do is it's going

00:31:04.620 to shape you

00:31:05.260 and ultimately distort

00:31:06.640 not only you,

00:31:07.760 but also your relationships

00:31:08.980 and your society.

00:31:10.540 So the Christian view

00:31:11.540 is that ultimately

00:31:12.380 God is perfect truth,

00:31:14.820 love,

00:31:15.200 and beauty.

00:31:16.220 And so not only

00:31:17.280 is it the case

00:31:17.840 that worshiping,

00:31:18.940 anything other than that,

00:31:19.900 is going to fail

00:31:21.760 to give God

00:31:22.460 what's due to God.

00:31:23.520 And that's what religion

00:31:24.340 in a sense is about.

00:31:25.360 It's a binding

00:31:26.560 of oneself to God,

00:31:27.820 giving to God

00:31:28.400 what's due.

00:31:28.840 But also it ends up

00:31:30.540 making the person

00:31:33.120 ultimately unhappy.

00:31:35.620 So you can't think

00:31:36.520 about this even

00:31:37.360 from a psychological

00:31:38.120 perspective that people

00:31:40.060 like Martin Seligman

00:31:40.960 would say things like,

00:31:42.560 love is at the core

00:31:44.820 of human flourishing.

00:31:46.900 And if we don't have that,

00:31:48.560 if I love money

00:31:49.420 or power more

00:31:51.040 than I love God

00:31:51.920 and more than I love

00:31:52.600 my friends

00:31:53.120 and more than I love

00:31:53.720 my family,

00:31:54.680 well, that's going

00:31:55.620 to deprive me

00:31:56.920 of the source

00:31:57.980 of my flourishing.

00:32:00.480 I'm going to end up

00:32:01.580 harming myself

00:32:02.840 and characteristically

00:32:04.140 also harming others

00:32:05.260 when I love power

00:32:06.320 or money or whatever

00:32:07.180 too much.

00:32:09.260 And so, yeah,

00:32:10.020 for Augustine at least,

00:32:10.800 this is a perennial temptation

00:32:13.000 to replace God

00:32:14.260 with something else.

00:32:15.900 That's perhaps

00:32:16.960 the warning

00:32:18.140 at the end of Genesis

00:32:19.320 with the story

00:32:20.120 of Noah

00:32:20.620 and also the story

00:32:21.900 of the Tower of Babel.

00:32:23.360 You know,

00:32:24.320 because the Tower of Babel

00:32:25.580 is people get together

00:32:27.180 and they try to build

00:32:28.460 an edifice

00:32:29.080 that's absolute

00:32:32.400 in some sense, right?

00:32:34.460 It's a building

00:32:35.780 that's under the control.

00:32:37.760 It's an edifice

00:32:38.280 that's of human manufacture

00:32:39.960 and it becomes larger

00:32:42.360 and larger and larger

00:32:43.120 and then it devolves

00:32:44.520 into a kind of chaos.

00:32:46.760 And so,

00:32:47.680 with the flood story,

00:32:49.260 with Noah and the flood,

00:32:50.240 that's one form of danger

00:32:53.560 that emerges

00:32:54.900 as a consequence

00:32:55.680 of deviation

00:32:56.400 from the proper path,

00:32:58.040 let's say,

00:32:58.540 orientation towards

00:32:59.620 whatever the highest good is.

00:33:01.100 And the Tower of Babel

00:33:02.020 is a secondary one

00:33:03.080 that has more to do

00:33:03.900 with the danger

00:33:05.160 of egotistical

00:33:07.400 human construction

00:33:08.360 and it is something

00:33:09.220 like the worship

00:33:10.040 of these idols.

00:33:11.020 So, imagine,

00:33:12.400 we can think about this

00:33:13.340 technically and psychologically

00:33:14.620 in some sense,

00:33:15.520 is that in order to act,

00:33:17.520 you have to presume

00:33:18.400 that that to which you're moving

00:33:20.260 is more important

00:33:21.140 than where you are, right?

00:33:22.760 So, you make a value judgment.

00:33:25.000 Moving in this direction

00:33:26.300 is appropriate

00:33:27.460 and then you have to move

00:33:28.840 in a lot of directions

00:33:29.780 over the course of your life

00:33:30.920 and, you know,

00:33:32.980 maybe you search for friendship

00:33:34.800 and you search for love

00:33:35.960 and you search for money

00:33:36.880 and you search for power

00:33:37.860 and so forth

00:33:39.000 and if there's nothing

00:33:40.840 integrating all that,

00:33:41.980 then you're pulled

00:33:42.560 in all sorts of directions, right?

00:33:44.000 It's like devils

00:33:44.820 pulling you apart

00:33:45.800 because you don't know

00:33:47.560 what's more important

00:33:48.500 than what

00:33:50.220 and that's very, very confusing

00:33:51.740 and off-putting

00:33:52.680 and if the wrong thing

00:33:54.080 takes control,

00:33:54.900 then you get demented

00:33:55.720 and bent

00:33:56.340 and so, what you see

00:33:58.100 in Christianity

00:33:59.220 is this struggle

00:34:01.260 over thousands of years

00:34:03.200 to specify

00:34:04.080 the thing that should be

00:34:06.260 at the top of the hierarchy

00:34:07.500 and one of the things

00:34:09.560 that really opened my eyes

00:34:11.480 to the depth

00:34:12.280 of these works

00:34:13.140 was this strange

00:34:14.500 proclamation

00:34:15.900 that the word

00:34:18.420 that existed

00:34:19.080 at the beginning

00:34:19.760 of time

00:34:21.060 that brought creation

00:34:22.620 into being

00:34:23.340 was the same as Christ

00:34:25.580 which is an unbelievably

00:34:27.720 bizarre proposition.

00:34:29.780 I mean,

00:34:30.100 I'm not speaking about

00:34:31.140 precisely religiously,

00:34:32.460 I'm thinking about it

00:34:33.180 more conceptually.

00:34:34.200 It's like

00:34:34.500 people who had that

00:34:37.020 revelation or intuition

00:34:38.580 are making the presupposition

00:34:41.440 that there's something

00:34:43.920 about the emergence

00:34:46.700 of reality

00:34:48.260 into conscious being

00:34:50.020 like,

00:34:51.100 because reality

00:34:51.940 without consciousness

00:34:52.740 doesn't really seem

00:34:53.560 to exist, right?

00:34:54.540 So when we talk

00:34:55.220 about reality

00:34:55.900 we always presuppose

00:34:57.520 a conscious viewer

00:34:58.460 and that the conscious viewer

00:35:00.460 that makes order

00:35:02.260 out of chaos

00:35:02.960 is most appropriately

00:35:05.940 the perfect being

00:35:07.500 that's manifested

00:35:08.980 in the figure of Christ.

00:35:10.660 and so that we participate

00:35:13.820 in that process

00:35:14.760 in some sense

00:35:15.560 to the degree

00:35:17.120 that we're attempting

00:35:18.760 to embody

00:35:19.480 that mode of being.

00:35:21.780 So,

00:35:22.980 I know that's,

00:35:25.280 you know,

00:35:25.600 that's going out there

00:35:26.460 in some sense

00:35:27.140 but it struck me

00:35:28.480 as such a brilliant idea

00:35:29.820 that it was hard

00:35:31.800 to account for.

00:35:33.380 I don't know

00:35:33.780 if I've made myself

00:35:34.620 clear with that.

00:35:35.460 Well,

00:35:37.740 I think it cuts

00:35:40.220 in many different ways

00:35:40.860 at the same time

00:35:41.460 but it also cuts

00:35:42.040 directly to the previous question

00:35:43.600 that you asked

00:35:44.220 about the right domain

00:35:45.580 of religious expression

00:35:46.940 and in a sense

00:35:48.420 it solves that problem.

00:35:51.240 Why?

00:35:52.120 Well,

00:35:52.660 if Jesus Christ

00:35:54.100 is the Logos

00:35:54.920 on the one hand

00:35:55.500 that means that

00:35:56.540 there is a Logos

00:35:57.260 there is a truth

00:35:58.120 there is a way

00:35:59.080 of existence

00:35:59.640 that is real

00:36:00.660 which gives us

00:36:01.580 a standard

00:36:02.080 to be able

00:36:02.620 to identify

00:36:03.180 false ways

00:36:04.000 of being

00:36:04.440 both individually

00:36:05.280 but also important

00:36:06.160 politically.

00:36:07.220 So,

00:36:07.480 it establishes

00:36:08.280 a groundwork

00:36:09.140 for there to be

00:36:10.140 an intrinsic

00:36:11.560 limiting principle

00:36:12.500 politically speaking

00:36:13.800 and morally speaking

00:36:15.080 to life

00:36:15.760 and that is

00:36:16.240 there is a truth

00:36:16.860 of the matter

00:36:17.320 and if you're not

00:36:18.520 living according

00:36:18.960 to the truth

00:36:19.520 you're deviating

00:36:20.580 from it.

00:36:21.540 So,

00:36:21.720 that establishes

00:36:22.400 a kind of

00:36:22.940 ground and ceiling

00:36:24.500 for the proper

00:36:25.660 expression

00:36:26.280 of what it means

00:36:27.920 to live morally

00:36:28.520 individually

00:36:28.980 and also

00:36:29.540 political power

00:36:30.400 as well.

00:36:30.920 You only have

00:36:31.680 right political

00:36:32.280 power

00:36:32.740 insofar

00:36:33.440 as it conforms

00:36:34.360 to the truth

00:36:35.460 but the Logos

00:36:37.000 is also Christ

00:36:37.880 that means

00:36:38.300 Christ is also

00:36:39.320 the person

00:36:41.120 the historical person

00:36:42.140 that as Catholics

00:36:43.160 we believe

00:36:43.700 is literally

00:36:44.420 literally real

00:36:45.480 and literally

00:36:46.200 raised from the dead

00:36:47.120 and that shows

00:36:48.380 that the political

00:36:49.220 life is not

00:36:49.920 the sum totality

00:36:50.800 of life

00:36:51.220 the moral life

00:36:51.920 isn't even

00:36:52.400 the sum totality

00:36:53.200 of life

00:36:53.500 the sum totality

00:36:54.260 of life

00:36:54.640 is love

00:36:55.520 in relationship

00:36:57.040 with God

00:36:57.780 who has made

00:36:58.300 himself incarnate.

00:37:00.300 So,

00:37:00.580 on the one hand

00:37:01.020 you have the

00:37:01.460 foundation

00:37:02.040 of truth

00:37:02.940 to structure

00:37:04.140 and limit

00:37:04.720 human life

00:37:05.900 and then

00:37:06.440 its ultimate

00:37:07.260 transcendent

00:37:08.700 telos

00:37:09.120 or purpose.

00:37:14.060 Dr. Kesar

00:37:14.960 you got some

00:37:15.720 comments about that?

00:37:18.080 I did

00:37:18.740 I wanted to

00:37:19.240 circle back

00:37:19.820 to you said

00:37:20.840 if I heard

00:37:21.280 you correctly

00:37:21.720 that reality

00:37:22.760 doesn't exist

00:37:23.680 without consciousness

00:37:24.600 and I think

00:37:26.340 that's true

00:37:27.080 if God exists

00:37:28.820 but then

00:37:29.580 if God

00:37:29.880 doesn't exist

00:37:30.460 then it's

00:37:30.740 not true

00:37:31.220 so human

00:37:32.180 beings

00:37:32.480 of course

00:37:32.920 haven't been

00:37:33.320 on planet

00:37:33.680 earth

00:37:33.920 since the

00:37:34.300 beginning

00:37:34.520 of the

00:37:35.500 universe

00:37:35.840 the universe

00:37:36.300 is about

00:37:36.840 13.8 billion

00:37:37.900 years old

00:37:38.440 so say 12

00:37:39.300 billion years

00:37:39.760 ago there

00:37:40.040 were no

00:37:40.260 human beings

00:37:40.720 at all

00:37:41.060 and presumably

00:37:41.960 there was

00:37:42.240 no consciousness

00:37:42.780 at all

00:37:43.280 so there

00:37:43.860 was reality

00:37:44.620 there were

00:37:45.180 the beginning

00:37:46.340 of stars

00:37:46.840 and things

00:37:47.200 like that

00:37:47.640 but there

00:37:48.300 was no

00:37:48.680 conscious

00:37:49.240 beings

00:37:49.820 anywhere

00:37:50.240 that

00:37:50.680 was able

00:37:52.100 to understand

00:37:52.700 that

00:37:53.020 unless God

00:37:53.980 exists

00:37:54.380 now if God

00:37:54.980 exists

00:37:55.380 and if

00:37:55.780 it's true

00:37:56.560 that God

00:37:57.240 is the

00:37:59.280 logos

00:37:59.780 well then

00:38:00.560 you would

00:38:00.760 say from

00:38:01.180 all eternity

00:38:01.940 there was

00:38:03.580 consciousness

00:38:04.020 there was

00:38:04.540 a mind

00:38:05.240 there was

00:38:05.820 a divine

00:38:06.460 mind

00:38:06.820 and so

00:38:07.820 and on

00:38:09.760 that view

00:38:10.300 there actually

00:38:11.040 would be

00:38:11.580 an ultimate

00:38:12.960 unity

00:38:13.420 you might

00:38:13.740 say

00:38:14.040 in terms

00:38:15.780 of the

00:38:16.900 divine

00:38:17.160 essence

00:38:17.480 and the

00:38:17.740 divine

00:38:18.040 mind

00:38:18.440 ultimately

00:38:19.000 being one

00:38:19.760 so

00:38:20.460 consciousness

00:38:21.280 and existence

00:38:22.340 have this

00:38:23.840 fundamental

00:38:24.540 ground

00:38:25.840 in God

00:38:27.000 but if God

00:38:27.540 doesn't exist

00:38:28.220 then I think

00:38:29.000 what you said

00:38:29.380 would not be

00:38:29.940 true

00:38:30.120 because

00:38:30.540 again

00:38:31.200 12 billion

00:38:31.840 years ago

00:38:32.240 there's no

00:38:32.560 human beings

00:38:33.000 around

00:38:33.380 presumably

00:38:34.000 unless they're

00:38:34.460 aliens

00:38:34.780 there's no

00:38:35.380 one around

00:38:35.740 to be

00:38:35.960 conscious

00:38:36.300 and so

00:38:37.080 there would

00:38:37.420 have been

00:38:37.640 reality

00:38:38.160 say 12

00:38:38.860 billion years

00:38:39.540 ago

00:38:39.820 but there

00:38:40.480 wouldn't

00:38:41.080 have been

00:38:41.260 consciousness

00:38:41.700 yeah

00:38:42.420 so

00:38:42.680 I want

00:38:43.780 to go

00:38:44.020 out on a

00:38:44.480 limb

00:38:44.680 here too

00:38:45.680 because

00:38:46.100 I have

00:38:47.220 a problem

00:38:47.800 with that

00:38:48.360 I can't

00:38:49.220 shake

00:38:49.820 this

00:38:50.340 supposition

00:38:52.040 that our

00:38:52.740 scientific

00:38:53.960 cosmological

00:38:54.920 theories

00:38:55.560 have an

00:38:56.800 implicit

00:38:57.460 conscious

00:38:58.220 observer

00:38:58.860 nested

00:38:59.460 inside

00:38:59.880 of them

00:39:00.260 even

00:39:00.940 when they

00:39:01.360 claim

00:39:01.680 not to

00:39:02.300 so

00:39:03.300 for example

00:39:04.260 when you

00:39:05.760 talk about

00:39:06.300 13 billion

00:39:07.180 years ago

00:39:08.000 there's

00:39:10.260 there's

00:39:11.120 I don't

00:39:14.120 know how

00:39:14.340 to say

00:39:14.700 this

00:39:14.940 properly

00:39:15.400 this

00:39:17.060 the

00:39:17.440 the

00:39:18.060 concept

00:39:18.800 of 13

00:39:19.660 billion

00:39:20.020 years

00:39:20.540 seems

00:39:20.960 to me

00:39:21.380 to require

00:39:21.980 a conscious

00:39:22.600 observer

00:39:23.160 to formulate

00:39:23.920 to begin

00:39:24.420 with

00:39:24.620 because I

00:39:25.100 don't

00:39:25.340 understand

00:39:26.020 what

00:39:27.060 duration

00:39:27.960 consists

00:39:28.820 of

00:39:29.340 in the

00:39:30.080 absence

00:39:30.460 of something

00:39:31.160 experiencing

00:39:31.880 duration

00:39:32.520 it's like

00:39:33.500 how does

00:39:34.120 something last

00:39:34.860 13 billion

00:39:35.740 years

00:39:36.320 like

00:39:37.000 in some

00:39:37.820 sense

00:39:38.120 it all

00:39:38.440 happens

00:39:38.780 at once

00:39:39.260 if there's

00:39:39.660 no conscious

00:39:40.260 observer

00:39:40.780 like

00:39:41.640 there's

00:39:42.740 I

00:39:43.980 well it

00:39:45.500 would depend

00:39:45.960 it would

00:39:46.660 depend right

00:39:47.020 on the

00:39:47.220 nature

00:39:47.480 of time

00:39:48.060 so the

00:39:48.780 view you're

00:39:49.160 talking about

00:39:49.780 was actually

00:39:50.560 put forward

00:39:50.960 by a guy

00:39:51.440 named

00:39:51.580 Barclay

00:39:51.980 and he

00:39:52.320 said

00:39:52.620 to be

00:39:53.620 is to

00:39:54.800 be

00:39:55.020 perceived

00:39:55.800 so in

00:39:56.540 other words

00:39:56.780 if you

00:39:57.020 don't have

00:39:57.340 a perceiver

00:39:58.000 there just

00:39:58.440 wouldn't be

00:39:59.080 any being

00:39:59.720 at all

00:40:00.200 but I

00:40:00.880 don't think

00:40:01.180 that that

00:40:01.720 is that's

00:40:02.300 right I

00:40:02.740 mean I

00:40:02.940 think you're

00:40:03.260 right that

00:40:04.180 the idea

00:40:04.880 or the

00:40:05.460 concept

00:40:06.160 the human

00:40:06.660 concept

00:40:07.140 of time

00:40:08.060 obviously

00:40:08.820 that can't

00:40:09.660 exist without

00:40:10.080 human beings

00:40:10.720 but before

00:40:12.240 there were

00:40:13.200 any human

00:40:13.580 beings

00:40:13.920 it seems

00:40:14.460 that all

00:40:15.160 available

00:40:15.480 scientific

00:40:15.960 evidence

00:40:16.360 suggest

00:40:16.920 that there

00:40:17.780 were

00:40:18.200 things

00:40:19.040 there was

00:40:19.480 carbon

00:40:19.880 molecules

00:40:20.460 and there

00:40:20.960 were

00:40:21.280 stars

00:40:21.920 and there

00:40:22.300 was all

00:40:22.520 kinds of

00:40:22.840 things

00:40:23.040 that existed

00:40:23.560 before there

00:40:24.780 was any

00:40:25.160 conscious

00:40:25.800 human

00:40:26.380 perceiving

00:40:27.960 them

00:40:28.220 so it

00:40:28.940 is true

00:40:29.260 of course

00:40:29.560 that all

00:40:29.900 of our

00:40:30.120 evidence

00:40:30.400 for the

00:40:30.720 big bang

00:40:31.160 and all

00:40:31.480 of our

00:40:31.840 scientific

00:40:32.540 investigations

00:40:33.280 presuppose

00:40:34.120 conscious

00:40:35.020 observers

00:40:35.760 that are

00:40:36.300 you know

00:40:37.060 taking the

00:40:37.820 measurements

00:40:38.180 and things

00:40:38.480 like that

00:40:38.900 but I'm

00:40:39.740 not sure

00:40:40.040 it follows

00:40:40.380 from that

00:40:40.740 logically

00:40:41.200 that therefore

00:40:42.060 we

00:40:43.100 can't

00:40:43.900 with good

00:40:44.980 reason

00:40:45.260 hold

00:40:45.740 that things

00:40:46.920 existed

00:40:47.440 before there

00:40:48.320 are any

00:40:48.700 human

00:40:49.260 or for that

00:40:50.400 matter

00:40:50.580 any kind

00:40:51.200 of conscious

00:40:51.680 observers

00:40:52.660 unless we think

00:40:54.100 Berkeley's right

00:40:54.600 that to be

00:40:55.000 is to be

00:40:55.600 perceived

00:40:56.120 well

00:40:56.700 but I

00:40:57.560 think that's

00:40:58.860 dubitable

00:40:59.140 there's

00:41:00.180 something in

00:41:00.840 Berkeley's

00:41:01.540 objection

00:41:02.420 that

00:41:02.900 seems to

00:41:04.180 me to be

00:41:04.760 hard to

00:41:06.000 skate around

00:41:06.980 like

00:41:07.320 when we

00:41:08.820 imagine

00:41:09.980 time before

00:41:11.340 consciousness

00:41:11.940 and we

00:41:12.660 imagine the

00:41:13.380 existence of

00:41:14.060 objects before

00:41:14.700 consciousness

00:41:15.180 we imagine

00:41:16.560 them as if

00:41:17.540 a conscious

00:41:18.060 observer was

00:41:18.940 there even

00:41:19.580 though there

00:41:19.980 wasn't one

00:41:20.620 so we think

00:41:21.880 like we see a

00:41:23.100 star from a

00:41:23.900 particular level

00:41:24.620 of resolution

00:41:25.360 right

00:41:26.040 we can't

00:41:26.960 see subatomic

00:41:27.720 particles

00:41:28.240 we can't

00:41:29.220 see atomic

00:41:30.580 structures

00:41:31.020 we can't

00:41:31.440 see molecular

00:41:31.920 structures

00:41:32.540 that which

00:41:35.300 exists before

00:41:36.180 there's a

00:41:36.580 perceiver is

00:41:37.220 all those

00:41:38.000 levels

00:41:38.480 simultaneously

00:41:39.620 at once

00:41:41.280 with a

00:41:43.340 duration that

00:41:44.100 doesn't

00:41:44.500 with a

00:41:45.060 temporal sequence

00:41:46.260 that doesn't

00:41:46.840 involve duration

00:41:47.800 and so

00:41:49.020 whatever was

00:41:50.760 there before

00:41:51.380 there was a

00:41:51.860 perceiver is

00:41:52.480 in some

00:41:52.840 sense

00:41:53.160 unimaginable

00:41:54.140 without the

00:41:54.680 projection of

00:41:55.380 a perceiver

00:41:55.920 back into

00:41:56.480 time

00:41:56.880 and I think

00:41:57.960 that warps

00:41:58.660 our perspective

00:42:00.200 on what it

00:42:01.440 was that's

00:42:02.060 there and

00:42:02.560 perhaps our

00:42:03.280 perspective on

00:42:03.960 the role of

00:42:04.420 consciousness in

00:42:05.200 the genesis of

00:42:06.020 being

00:42:06.420 so

00:42:07.620 anyways

00:42:09.480 that's it

00:42:09.980 those are

00:42:10.440 here's another

00:42:12.300 another way of

00:42:13.160 thinking about it

00:42:13.780 and I don't know

00:42:14.520 what your view

00:42:14.900 would be

00:42:15.300 so let's say

00:42:16.200 god forbid

00:42:16.820 there's some

00:42:18.260 sort of

00:42:18.640 plague that

00:42:19.300 strikes humanity

00:42:20.260 and all human

00:42:21.160 beings die

00:42:21.840 on my view

00:42:23.340 there would still

00:42:24.300 be lots of

00:42:24.800 things that

00:42:25.120 continue to

00:42:25.620 exist

00:42:26.040 like the

00:42:26.920 sun would

00:42:27.260 still exist

00:42:27.880 the earth

00:42:28.380 would still

00:42:28.780 exist

00:42:29.160 there'd be

00:42:29.580 all kinds

00:42:29.900 of things

00:42:30.140 that exist

00:42:30.460 now there'd

00:42:30.900 be no

00:42:31.100 human beings

00:42:31.700 in that

00:42:32.320 terrible

00:42:32.580 scenario

00:42:33.060 that were

00:42:33.600 there to

00:42:33.900 perceive it

00:42:34.500 but they

00:42:35.280 would still

00:42:35.880 continue to

00:42:36.880 exist

00:42:37.320 or maybe

00:42:38.940 you have a

00:42:39.220 different view

00:42:39.600 I just

00:42:41.640 so imagine

00:42:42.840 that consciousness

00:42:43.540 was eradicated

00:42:44.520 say not just

00:42:45.480 human beings

00:42:46.160 just to make

00:42:46.760 it cleaner

00:42:47.280 in some sense

00:42:48.100 I can't

00:42:49.860 understand how

00:42:50.760 to conceptualize

00:42:51.900 what it is

00:42:52.520 that would be

00:42:53.060 left

00:42:53.460 you know

00:42:54.400 is it

00:42:54.800 nothing but

00:42:55.720 quantum potential

00:42:56.780 is it a sea

00:42:58.360 of quantum

00:42:58.980 potential

00:42:59.540 is it not

00:43:00.960 turned into

00:43:01.480 stars and

00:43:02.200 solar systems

00:43:02.980 and galaxies

00:43:03.600 when there's

00:43:04.180 an observer

00:43:04.740 specifying a

00:43:05.780 level of

00:43:06.140 analysis

00:43:06.560 it isn't

00:43:08.720 obvious to me

00:43:09.520 from looking

00:43:10.020 at the physics

00:43:10.680 what it is

00:43:11.260 that's there

00:43:11.840 because you

00:43:12.580 say well

00:43:12.980 there'd still

00:43:13.340 be a sun

00:43:14.000 it's like

00:43:14.400 well

00:43:14.660 wait a

00:43:15.920 second

00:43:16.240 when you

00:43:18.700 think of

00:43:19.220 the sun

00:43:19.660 you think

00:43:20.120 of what

00:43:20.440 you perceive

00:43:21.080 and when

00:43:21.620 you say

00:43:21.980 it would

00:43:22.240 still be

00:43:22.600 there

00:43:22.860 you think

00:43:23.380 that what

00:43:23.800 you perceive

00:43:24.400 would still

00:43:24.860 be there

00:43:25.200 but you're

00:43:25.620 not there

00:43:26.100 so what

00:43:26.500 you perceive

00:43:27.080 would not

00:43:27.620 be there

00:43:28.100 I don't

00:43:28.960 know what

00:43:29.320 it is

00:43:29.660 that would

00:43:29.980 be there

00:43:30.500 you could

00:43:31.340 say it's

00:43:31.780 as if

00:43:32.220 the sun

00:43:32.760 is still

00:43:33.200 there

00:43:33.560 but

00:43:34.340 but the

00:43:35.920 level of

00:43:36.540 analysis

00:43:36.940 problem

00:43:37.600 and the

00:43:38.220 fact of

00:43:38.820 the strange

00:43:40.580 constituent

00:43:41.940 reality of

00:43:44.040 matter at

00:43:44.640 the at

00:43:45.180 the quantum

00:43:45.660 level

00:43:46.120 makes it

00:43:47.460 very difficult

00:43:48.360 for me to

00:43:49.220 conceive of

00:43:50.620 a universe

00:43:51.100 that's just

00:43:51.780 the same

00:43:52.440 as it is

00:43:52.980 now

00:43:53.400 except there's

00:43:54.600 no conscious

00:43:55.220 observer

00:43:55.720 it doesn't

00:43:56.700 make sense

00:43:57.240 to me

00:43:57.800 if I may

00:44:00.480 briefly

00:44:00.800 it seems to

00:44:01.300 me that

00:44:01.600 there's

00:44:02.000 perhaps some

00:44:02.960 equivocation

00:44:03.740 in the

00:44:04.500 use of the

00:44:05.240 word existence

00:44:05.940 here

00:44:06.400 because

00:44:07.600 existence

00:44:08.020 is of

00:44:08.460 course

00:44:08.620 tied up

00:44:09.100 with

00:44:09.320 duration

00:44:09.860 understood

00:44:11.020 from our

00:44:11.620 own

00:44:11.820 perception

00:44:12.240 of it

00:44:12.660 but that

00:44:13.300 doesn't

00:44:13.540 necessarily

00:44:13.960 mean that

00:44:14.460 duration

00:44:14.880 is either

00:44:17.200 a necessary

00:44:17.820 condition

00:44:18.860 for existence

00:44:19.560 or the

00:44:21.360 most important

00:44:22.020 condition

00:44:22.400 so we

00:44:22.740 think of

00:44:23.200 existence

00:44:23.720 in terms

00:44:24.940 of other

00:44:25.800 potential

00:44:26.180 qualities

00:44:26.620 that it

00:44:26.900 has

00:44:27.120 unity

00:44:27.580 following

00:44:28.080 a kind

00:44:28.860 of

00:44:29.000 pattern

00:44:29.380 and in

00:44:30.660 that sense

00:44:31.500 it seems

00:44:31.780 to me

00:44:31.960 the more

00:44:32.260 important

00:44:32.880 question

00:44:33.220 isn't

00:44:33.560 what would

00:44:34.040 existence

00:44:34.480 be like

00:44:34.980 if there

00:44:35.320 were no

00:44:35.580 observers

00:44:35.980 but would

00:44:36.520 there

00:44:36.760 be

00:44:37.000 existence

00:44:37.580 and I

00:44:38.840 think

00:44:39.000 it's

00:44:39.660 logically

00:44:40.440 possible

00:44:40.880 metaphysically

00:44:41.440 perhaps

00:44:41.800 even

00:44:42.020 necessary

00:44:42.400 to say

00:44:42.780 that there

00:44:43.160 would be

00:44:43.800 existence

00:44:44.300 but that

00:44:44.760 doesn't

00:44:45.000 mean that

00:44:45.280 we would

00:44:45.500 be able

00:44:45.920 to

00:44:46.380 describe

00:44:47.460 it

00:44:47.840 yeah

00:44:48.500 so I

00:44:49.120 think I'm

00:44:49.460 going to

00:44:49.580 disagree

00:44:49.800 with you

00:44:50.120 now

00:44:50.380 I'm not

00:44:51.180 sure

00:44:51.300 there

00:44:51.460 would

00:44:51.740 be

00:44:52.020 if there

00:44:52.700 was no

00:44:53.200 if there

00:44:54.260 were no

00:44:54.500 perceivers

00:44:55.120 at all

00:44:55.780 including

00:44:57.260 God

00:44:57.820 then I

00:44:58.680 don't think

00:44:58.920 there could

00:44:59.160 be other

00:44:59.440 existing

00:44:59.840 things

00:45:00.180 I was

00:45:00.740 saying

00:45:00.900 human

00:45:01.340 person

00:45:01.580 I was

00:45:02.080 limited

00:45:02.260 to that

00:45:02.700 yeah

00:45:03.040 because if

00:45:03.640 Aquinas

00:45:05.580 there couldn't

00:45:06.420 be anything

00:45:06.860 at all

00:45:07.240 in existence

00:45:08.060 if God

00:45:09.400 wasn't the

00:45:10.720 ultimate first

00:45:11.240 cause of all

00:45:11.720 these things

00:45:12.140 and so

00:45:13.460 if God

00:45:14.620 didn't exist

00:45:15.180 at all

00:45:15.620 that would

00:45:16.200 mean that

00:45:17.080 there couldn't

00:45:17.700 be anything

00:45:18.160 else

00:45:18.440 if he's

00:45:18.900 right about

00:45:19.320 this whole

00:45:19.680 argument

00:45:20.000 and I think

00:45:20.920 he is

00:45:21.200 right

00:45:21.460 so

00:45:21.920 there is

00:45:23.660 ultimately

00:45:24.540 a

00:45:25.380 mind

00:45:26.700 perceiving

00:45:27.200 all created

00:45:27.840 reality

00:45:28.320 the divine

00:45:29.240 mind

00:45:29.640 but I don't

00:45:30.680 think there

00:45:30.980 needs to be

00:45:31.460 human minds

00:45:32.080 or for that

00:45:32.640 matter

00:45:32.800 if we talk

00:45:34.260 about angels

00:45:34.740 I don't think

00:45:35.200 there need

00:45:35.460 be angelic

00:45:35.980 minds

00:45:36.200 for there

00:45:36.940 to be

00:45:37.220 existing

00:45:37.640 things

00:45:38.440 yeah

00:45:39.940 well I

00:45:40.520 guess I'm

00:45:41.160 stuck on

00:45:42.680 this for

00:45:43.220 reasons that

00:45:45.820 I think are

00:45:46.320 somewhat scientific

00:45:47.240 in their

00:45:48.400 nature

00:45:49.240 my inability

00:45:50.740 to conceptualize

00:45:51.920 what it is

00:45:52.500 that would be

00:45:53.260 if there was

00:45:53.880 no point

00:45:54.660 of reference

00:45:55.240 because

00:45:55.780 everything is

00:45:56.820 all things

00:45:57.460 at once

00:45:58.100 in some

00:45:58.560 sense

00:45:58.960 without

00:45:59.360 a limited

00:46:00.200 without a

00:46:01.020 delimited

00:46:01.500 observer

00:46:02.060 and so

00:46:03.700 I don't

00:46:04.220 know what

00:46:04.660 it is

00:46:05.040 for there

00:46:05.380 to be

00:46:05.660 something

00:46:06.000 when everything

00:46:06.640 is

00:46:07.020 everything

00:46:08.180 at once

00:46:08.860 there's no

00:46:10.020 differentiation

00:46:10.620 as a consequence

00:46:11.620 of a limited

00:46:12.220 observer

00:46:12.720 so

00:46:13.040 but we

00:46:13.680 can

00:46:14.060 leave that

00:46:15.220 that part

00:46:16.300 of the

00:46:16.500 argument

00:46:16.780 I'm

00:46:17.700 pushing this

00:46:18.300 at least

00:46:18.720 in some

00:46:19.120 part

00:46:19.360 because

00:46:19.680 I

00:46:21.340 have also

00:46:23.220 seen

00:46:23.640 I would

00:46:24.440 say on

00:46:24.820 the part

00:46:25.200 of the

00:46:25.480 more

00:46:25.640 dedicated

00:46:26.120 modern

00:46:26.600 atheists

00:46:27.160 this

00:46:27.560 necessity

00:46:28.680 to

00:46:29.380 devalue

00:46:31.240 consciousness

00:46:31.980 because

00:46:33.620 consciousness

00:46:34.240 seems to

00:46:35.000 be

00:46:35.320 it's a

00:46:37.700 mystery

00:46:38.100 let's put

00:46:38.580 it that

00:46:38.940 way

00:46:39.160 and

00:46:39.340 it's

00:46:41.260 an

00:46:41.380 unexplained

00:46:42.060 mystery

00:46:42.520 and it's

00:46:43.100 given such

00:46:43.880 pronounced

00:46:45.220 status

00:46:46.040 in the

00:46:46.820 biblical

00:46:47.240 writings

00:46:47.760 it's part

00:46:48.220 of what

00:46:48.460 gives

00:46:48.700 human

00:46:48.960 beings

00:46:49.240 dignity

00:46:49.680 is the

00:46:50.200 fact

00:46:50.440 that we

00:46:50.800 share

00:46:51.140 this

00:46:51.420 logos

00:46:51.820 consciousness

00:46:52.440 that's

00:46:53.320 integrally

00:46:53.840 tied up

00:46:54.360 with

00:46:54.600 the

00:46:55.140 structure

00:46:55.440 of reality

00:46:55.980 as such

00:46:56.680 and

00:46:57.820 well

00:46:59.440 I guess

00:46:59.760 I'll just

00:47:00.120 leave it

00:47:00.440 at that

00:47:00.780 that's

00:47:01.060 enough

00:47:01.300 exploration

00:47:01.880 of that

00:47:02.320 as far

00:47:02.700 as I'm

00:47:03.000 concerned

00:47:03.380 London

00:47:04.600 is one

00:47:04.940 of the

00:47:05.120 coolest

00:47:05.360 places

00:47:05.720 on the

00:47:06.020 planet

00:47:06.320 did you

00:47:07.100 know

00:47:07.260 they have

00:47:07.600 wild

00:47:08.240 foxes

00:47:08.800 downtown

00:47:09.440 pretty big

00:47:10.500 change from

00:47:10.920 the raccoons

00:47:11.400 in Canada

00:47:11.860 I'm also

00:47:13.440 someone who

00:47:13.920 likes learning

00:47:14.400 a lot

00:47:14.860 as you

00:47:15.180 might

00:47:15.320 imagine

00:47:15.660 and

00:47:16.480 it goes

00:47:16.920 without

00:47:17.160 saying

00:47:17.460 there's

00:47:17.680 a lot

00:47:17.880 of

00:47:18.000 really

00:47:18.220 interesting

00:47:18.680 history

00:47:19.080 in

00:47:19.480 London

00:47:19.760 there are

00:47:20.740 almost

00:47:20.940 too many

00:47:21.260 angles

00:47:21.560 to

00:47:21.760 explore

00:47:22.200 I'm

00:47:22.780 telling

00:47:23.040 you

00:47:23.200 this

00:47:23.420 because

00:47:23.680 I saw

00:47:24.060 a really

00:47:26.680 glorious

00:47:26.820 London

00:47:27.200 which

00:47:27.900 explores

00:47:28.280 the

00:47:28.480 dark

00:47:28.740 side

00:47:29.000 of

00:47:29.140 London

00:47:29.420 with

00:47:29.840 its

00:47:30.000 Victorian

00:47:30.520 intrigue

00:47:31.300 and

00:47:31.460 cobblestones

00:47:32.040 and

00:47:32.260 crime

00:47:32.600 because

00:47:33.380 there's

00:47:33.620 quite a

00:47:33.940 history

00:47:34.180 of

00:47:34.340 London

00:47:34.560 crime

00:47:34.900 too

00:47:35.220 who

00:47:36.060 could

00:47:36.260 forget

00:47:36.600 Jack

00:47:36.900 the

00:47:37.080 Ripper

00:47:37.300 or

00:47:37.600 the

00:47:37.780 singing

00:47:38.060 barber

00:47:38.420 Sweeney

00:47:38.940 Todd

00:47:39.300 actually

00:47:40.140 was

00:47:40.340 Sweeney

00:47:40.640 Todd

00:47:40.840 even

00:47:41.060 real

00:47:41.360 that's

00:47:42.000 how

00:47:42.100 deep

00:47:42.360 London

00:47:42.700 crime

00:47:43.060 goes

00:47:43.400 we

00:47:43.620 don't

00:47:43.900 know

00:47:44.200 of

00:47:44.980 course

00:47:45.200 Wondrium

00:47:45.700 formerly

00:47:46.460 known as

00:47:47.160 the

00:47:47.320 great

00:47:47.560 courses

00:47:47.960 plus

00:47:48.480 which

00:47:48.720 I've

00:47:48.860 talked

00:47:49.060 about

00:47:49.260 before

00:47:49.680 isn't

00:47:50.320 just

00:47:50.500 devoted

00:47:50.780 to

00:47:51.000 London

00:47:51.260 there's

00:47:51.740 a

00:47:51.860 really

00:47:52.040 unique

00:47:52.380 course

00:47:52.720 called

00:47:53.140 in

00:47:53.560 the

00:47:53.700 footsteps

00:47:54.060 of

00:47:54.460 Vincent

00:47:55.200 Van

00:47:55.500 Go

00:47:55.700 for

00:47:55.900 example

00:47:56.280 there's

00:47:57.280 one

00:47:57.420 about

00:47:57.580 the

00:47:57.740 Beatles

00:47:58.020 one

00:47:58.260 for

00:47:58.440 quilting

00:47:58.920 one

00:47:59.320 for

00:47:59.540 playing

00:47:59.840 the

00:48:00.040 ukulele

00:48:00.640 you

00:48:01.120 can

00:48:01.260 check

00:48:01.500 all

00:48:01.820 these

00:48:02.060 out

00:48:02.280 on

00:48:02.520 wondrium

00:48:03.060 dot

00:48:03.440 com

00:48:03.820 or

00:48:04.260 on

00:48:04.380 the

00:48:04.480 wondrium

00:48:04.820 app

00:48:05.200 which

00:48:05.760 lets

00:48:05.960 you

00:48:06.080 download

00:48:06.360 the

00:48:06.560 audio

00:48:06.840 and

00:48:07.020 listen

00:48:07.200 to

00:48:07.360 it

00:48:07.440 like

00:48:07.560 a

00:48:07.720 podcast

00:48:08.200 with

00:48:09.280 wondrium

00:48:09.720 you

00:48:10.160 can

00:48:10.300 pick

00:48:10.520 the

00:48:10.680 time

00:48:18.860 trial

00:48:19.220 with

00:48:19.440 unlimited

00:48:19.920 access

00:48:20.600 sign

00:48:21.440 up

00:48:21.600 now

00:48:21.900 at

00:48:22.120 wondrium

00:48:22.620 dot

00:48:23.080 com

00:48:23.520 slash

00:48:24.040 peterson

00:48:24.580 that's

00:48:25.560 w-o-n

00:48:26.900 d-r-i-u-m

00:48:29.080 dot com

00:48:29.980 slash

00:48:30.340 peterson

00:48:30.720 for a

00:48:31.260 free

00:48:31.500 unlimited

00:48:32.060 access

00:48:32.700 trial

00:48:33.160 one of

00:48:34.860 the

00:48:35.080 another

00:48:36.420 thing that

00:48:36.840 we might

00:48:37.140 talk about

00:48:37.640 briefly

00:48:38.060 is that

00:48:38.720 there's

00:48:41.800 also

00:48:42.180 a

00:48:43.520 tendency

00:48:43.860 in

00:48:44.220 the

00:48:45.120 modern

00:48:45.400 culture

00:48:45.860 as we

00:48:47.340 move

00:48:47.580 away

00:48:47.860 from

00:48:48.200 our

00:48:49.420 religious

00:48:49.800 heritage

00:48:50.400 as

00:48:50.960 fewer

00:48:51.240 people

00:48:51.660 go to

00:48:52.720 church

00:48:53.040 let's

00:48:53.360 say

00:48:53.520 and are

00:48:53.840 even

00:48:54.060 familiar

00:48:54.500 with

00:48:54.800 the

00:48:54.960 traditional

00:48:55.400 church

00:48:55.880 writings

00:48:56.280 to

00:48:57.440 swallow

00:48:57.840 this

00:48:58.160 story

00:48:58.540 that

00:48:58.880 science

00:48:59.880 and

00:49:00.120 religion

00:49:00.460 have

00:49:00.800 been

00:49:01.020 at

00:49:01.200 odds

00:49:01.480 with

00:49:01.700 one

00:49:01.920 another

00:49:02.260 throughout

00:49:03.020 the

00:49:03.340 course

00:49:03.560 of

00:49:03.720 history

00:49:04.100 and

00:49:04.340 Dr.

00:49:04.980 Petrasek

00:49:05.500 you made

00:49:05.900 a case

00:49:06.340 earlier

00:49:06.780 in this

00:49:07.240 discussion

00:49:07.780 I believe

00:49:08.780 it was

00:49:09.100 you

00:49:09.320 that

00:49:10.620 the

00:49:12.600 proposition

00:49:14.700 that the

00:49:15.420 world was

00:49:16.000 ordered

00:49:16.940 by something

00:49:17.880 that was

00:49:18.960 akin to

00:49:19.980 a

00:49:20.700 comprehensible

00:49:21.420 intelligence

00:49:22.220 or an

00:49:23.160 intelligence

00:49:23.720 or a

00:49:24.500 consciousness

00:49:24.880 that we

00:49:26.080 could have

00:49:26.420 a relationship

00:49:27.020 with

00:49:27.500 was the

00:49:28.220 deep felt

00:49:28.900 sense that

00:49:29.720 we could

00:49:31.040 understand

00:49:31.660 things if

00:49:32.260 we investigated

00:49:33.160 them

00:49:33.500 and

00:49:34.360 that

00:49:35.980 means that

00:49:37.440 the religious

00:49:37.980 proposition

00:49:38.580 of an

00:49:39.720 orderly

00:49:40.240 comprehensible

00:49:40.960 world

00:49:41.500 amenable to

00:49:42.720 the investigations

00:49:43.420 of consciousness

00:49:44.120 was actually a

00:49:44.960 precondition for

00:49:45.860 the dawn of

00:49:46.500 science

00:49:46.920 and that's

00:49:48.100 what

00:49:48.260 Nietzsche

00:49:48.600 claimed

00:49:49.040 that

00:49:50.340 Christianity

00:49:51.260 died at

00:49:52.220 its own

00:49:52.640 hands

00:49:53.180 by

00:49:53.900 emphasizing

00:49:54.740 the

00:49:55.880 what would

00:49:59.640 you say

00:50:00.000 the primary

00:50:01.060 importance

00:50:01.660 of truth

00:50:02.600 and so

00:50:04.400 the exploration

00:50:07.780 of truth

00:50:08.580 at least in

00:50:09.420 part

00:50:09.640 developed into

00:50:10.320 the empirical

00:50:10.900 domain

00:50:11.360 and then

00:50:11.740 the scientific

00:50:12.580 worldview

00:50:13.140 produced

00:50:13.840 representations

00:50:15.560 of being

00:50:16.380 that seemed

00:50:16.920 to contradict

00:50:17.700 the traditional

00:50:19.000 representations

00:50:19.940 and because

00:50:21.500 our minds

00:50:22.620 had been

00:50:23.060 trained to

00:50:23.780 value truth

00:50:24.480 to such a

00:50:25.020 great degree

00:50:25.660 at least in

00:50:26.920 part as a

00:50:27.440 consequence of

00:50:28.120 our religious

00:50:28.580 education

00:50:29.260 we were

00:50:31.900 forced

00:50:33.200 by logical

00:50:34.380 consistency

00:50:35.180 in some

00:50:35.740 sense to

00:50:36.320 experience this

00:50:37.460 existential crisis

00:50:38.540 that the

00:50:39.880 apparent opposition

00:50:40.780 between the

00:50:41.380 empirical and

00:50:42.020 the religious

00:50:42.420 has put us

00:50:43.060 into

00:50:43.380 so that's a

00:50:44.680 different reading

00:50:45.380 of the

00:50:45.720 relationship

00:50:46.160 between science

00:50:46.960 and religion

00:50:47.500 it means it's a

00:50:48.980 problem we have

00:50:49.740 to solve

00:50:50.260 instead of a

00:50:50.940 battle between

00:50:51.780 two opponents

00:50:53.620 one of whom

00:50:54.680 has to win

00:50:55.360 and the other

00:50:55.840 whom has to

00:50:57.240 lose

00:50:57.700 yeah well

00:51:00.020 that completely

00:51:00.780 contradicts

00:51:01.780 certainly the

00:51:02.440 catholic

00:51:02.960 understanding

00:51:03.480 of the

00:51:03.660 relationship

00:51:03.960 between

00:51:04.480 science

00:51:05.560 and religion

00:51:06.500 there's a

00:51:07.380 historical

00:51:07.740 question here

00:51:08.420 which is

00:51:08.920 how did

00:51:09.860 science

00:51:10.360 emerge

00:51:11.000 into its

00:51:11.540 current

00:51:11.800 form

00:51:12.200 and even

00:51:12.980 on those

00:51:13.780 grounds

00:51:14.200 it's

00:51:14.660 inaccurate

00:51:15.020 to say

00:51:15.540 that

00:51:15.780 Christianity

00:51:16.780 and specifically

00:51:17.660 Catholicism

00:51:18.420 has ever

00:51:18.780 been opposed

00:51:19.480 to science

00:51:20.040 the historical

00:51:22.080 record just

00:51:22.680 doesn't show

00:51:23.440 that

00:51:23.700 then there's

00:51:24.680 a conceptual

00:51:25.440 and philosophical

00:51:26.180 question

00:51:26.740 of again

00:51:27.420 using the

00:51:27.860 philosophical

00:51:28.280 language

00:51:28.700 what's the

00:51:29.720 condition

00:51:30.060 for the

00:51:30.400 possibility

00:51:31.000 of there

00:51:31.720 being

00:51:32.080 a

00:51:32.900 empirical

00:51:33.420 investigation

00:51:34.260 in so far

00:51:35.180 as it's

00:51:35.900 cognitively

00:51:37.140 and epistemically

00:51:37.860 possible

00:51:38.320 and then the

00:51:38.980 motivational

00:51:39.440 question of

00:51:40.040 why in the

00:51:40.500 world would

00:51:40.920 you carry

00:51:41.360 it out

00:51:41.820 unless you

00:51:42.760 have the

00:51:43.580 belief

00:51:43.900 either

00:51:44.160 explicitly

00:51:44.660 or implicitly

00:51:45.720 that the

00:51:46.360 world both

00:51:46.900 is knowable

00:51:47.720 and that

00:51:48.180 that knowledge

00:51:48.740 is somehow

00:51:49.240 real

00:51:49.840 that presupposes

00:51:51.840 not only

00:51:52.480 any generic

00:51:53.600 metaphysics

00:51:54.180 but I would

00:51:54.680 say a

00:51:55.460 specifically

00:51:55.900 Christian

00:51:56.480 metaphysics

00:51:57.040 in particular

00:51:57.680 so it's

00:51:58.780 it's a

00:51:59.040 meme I

00:51:59.520 would say

00:51:59.840 that science

00:52:00.340 and religion

00:52:00.860 are somehow

00:52:01.580 opposed

00:52:02.160 but it's

00:52:02.800 it's

00:52:03.200 it's a

00:52:03.760 false one

00:52:04.280 the idea

00:52:05.720 that science

00:52:07.020 and religion

00:52:07.520 are opposed

00:52:08.280 arose really

00:52:09.920 in the 19th

00:52:10.500 century

00:52:10.880 there was a

00:52:11.420 guy named

00:52:11.680 Draper

00:52:12.060 and he wrote

00:52:12.700 a book

00:52:12.960 that basically

00:52:13.620 put forward

00:52:14.020 this thesis

00:52:14.500 and before

00:52:16.160 that the

00:52:17.120 thesis wasn't

00:52:17.780 held

00:52:18.060 and there's

00:52:18.660 no real

00:52:19.420 good historical

00:52:20.540 grounds for

00:52:21.320 holding that

00:52:22.340 so if you

00:52:22.640 look at many

00:52:23.060 of the

00:52:23.640 prominent scientists

00:52:25.200 in the history

00:52:25.800 of science

00:52:26.200 many of them

00:52:26.720 were faithful

00:52:28.060 believing people

00:52:29.140 I mean

00:52:29.640 Newton was a

00:52:30.980 faithful Protestant

00:52:32.100 you have people

00:52:33.280 like Descartes

00:52:34.120 a Catholic

00:52:34.700 you have

00:52:35.460 Blaise Pascal

00:52:36.280 a great

00:52:36.880 mathematician

00:52:37.720 you have

00:52:38.440 Gregoire

00:52:39.500 Mendel

00:52:41.420 you have

00:52:42.220 George Lemaitre

00:52:43.660 in the 20th century

00:52:44.500 who was one of the

00:52:45.600 founders of

00:52:46.580 Big Bang

00:52:46.920 cosmology

00:52:47.560 so all the way

00:52:48.640 from the beginning

00:52:49.160 of science

00:52:49.840 to today

00:52:50.620 you have

00:52:51.960 prominent people

00:52:52.800 of faith

00:52:53.220 that are

00:52:54.120 scientists

00:52:55.000 even right now

00:52:55.740 I think the

00:52:56.140 head of the

00:52:56.700 what is it

00:52:58.680 the head of the

00:52:59.480 National Institute

00:53:00.300 for Health

00:53:00.780 I think Francis

00:53:01.820 I forget his name

00:53:02.880 but anyway

00:53:03.440 he's a prominent

00:53:04.600 believer

00:53:05.020 and the church

00:53:06.600 as an institution

00:53:07.560 also supported

00:53:09.260 science

00:53:09.740 so the cathedrals

00:53:11.200 were designed

00:53:11.880 in the 17th century

00:53:13.000 to serve also

00:53:14.200 as solar

00:53:14.940 observatories

00:53:15.860 Catholic universities

00:53:17.540 all around the world

00:53:18.960 have departments

00:53:20.040 of science

00:53:20.640 and promote

00:53:21.960 scientific investigation

00:53:23.100 for their students

00:53:24.020 the pope has

00:53:25.380 the Pontifical Academy

00:53:26.320 for Science

00:53:26.900 he invites scientists

00:53:27.660 from all over the world

00:53:28.620 scientists of

00:53:29.700 all different faiths

00:53:31.160 and no faith

00:53:31.640 to come to the Vatican

00:53:32.640 for these scientific meetings

00:53:34.340 so I think it's

00:53:36.080 really quite unfair

00:53:37.040 to say the church

00:53:38.300 is opposed

00:53:38.920 to science

00:53:40.060 so faith and science

00:53:41.740 are obviously

00:53:42.600 not the same thing

00:53:43.300 there's people

00:53:44.020 that are great at science

00:53:44.900 that don't have faith

00:53:45.980 there are people

00:53:47.280 that are great at faith

00:53:48.600 and don't know much

00:53:49.240 about science

00:53:49.720 but there are people

00:53:50.460 that are kind of overlapping

00:53:52.260 and so I think

00:53:54.100 it is really

00:53:55.500 yeah a myth

00:53:56.640 to think that the church

00:53:57.760 is opposed to science

00:53:58.760 yeah I just have

00:53:59.600 very very briefly

00:54:00.220 it's not a biographical

00:54:01.260 peculiarity

00:54:02.140 that these great

00:54:03.500 people of science

00:54:05.460 who are Catholics

00:54:06.560 they didn't practice

00:54:08.440 their scientific craft

00:54:09.860 in addition to

00:54:10.960 believing in God

00:54:12.280 and practicing Catholicism

00:54:13.820 they did it precisely

00:54:15.860 as Catholic

00:54:16.760 working from

00:54:17.440 the framework

00:54:18.600 of faith

00:54:19.280 and reason there

00:54:20.160 and that's always

00:54:21.060 that's always been the case

00:54:22.260 so Nis

00:54:25.080 let's delve into

00:54:26.900 this faith issue

00:54:27.920 a bit too

00:54:28.660 because the faith

00:54:32.360 is a very complicated term

00:54:33.900 and you know

00:54:35.220 it's often

00:54:36.220 parodied

00:54:37.940 by the rationalists

00:54:40.420 you know

00:54:40.900 to have faith in God

00:54:43.260 is parodied

00:54:45.360 as a

00:54:45.920 like a

00:54:47.240 primitive

00:54:48.240 and superstitious

00:54:49.400 belief

00:54:50.740 but

00:54:51.920 my psychological

00:54:53.520 investigations

00:54:54.420 convinced me

00:54:55.260 that

00:54:55.540 there's no action

00:54:57.140 without faith

00:54:58.240 because we are always

00:55:00.280 stepping into the unknown

00:55:01.480 we have to

00:55:03.740 take a leap of faith

00:55:05.260 to exist

00:55:06.720 to do the simplest

00:55:08.260 of things

00:55:08.880 literally to move

00:55:10.360 and that has to do

00:55:11.880 with what I said earlier

00:55:12.920 is that

00:55:13.360 we're trying to move

00:55:15.120 from a place

00:55:15.800 of less value

00:55:16.660 to a place

00:55:17.200 of more value

00:55:18.000 so we have to make

00:55:19.300 some assumptions

00:55:19.860 about what constitutes

00:55:21.000 value

00:55:21.480 and then we have to

00:55:22.840 believe that our actions

00:55:23.760 are going to have

00:55:24.380 the outcome

00:55:24.720 that we desire

00:55:25.500 and we do that

00:55:26.780 without evidence

00:55:27.620 I mean that's partly

00:55:28.400 why to be human

00:55:29.380 is to be riven

00:55:30.240 with anxiety

00:55:31.040 it's because

00:55:32.180 there's no certainty

00:55:33.200 and so

00:55:33.720 you can't act

00:55:35.300 without faith

00:55:36.100 and so then

00:55:36.680 the question might

00:55:37.400 if you accept

00:55:38.140 that proposition

00:55:38.980 you can't act

00:55:40.520 without faith

00:55:41.200 and I actually believe

00:55:42.220 I don't believe

00:55:43.060 that that's a

00:55:43.920 disputable proposition

00:55:46.660 unless you view

00:55:48.020 people as

00:55:48.860 deterministic

00:55:49.920 in the way

00:55:50.400 that clocks are

00:55:51.500 you know

00:55:52.540 so that

00:55:52.960 we're just

00:55:53.640 stimulus response

00:55:54.640 machines

00:55:55.120 it seems to me

00:55:56.020 that instead

00:55:56.540 we're moving

00:55:57.040 into the unknown

00:55:57.840 and we do that

00:55:59.660 in dread

00:56:01.160 in some sense

00:56:02.020 dread and hope

00:56:02.840 and we do that

00:56:03.680 because we have faith

00:56:05.360 and when we lose

00:56:06.080 that faith

00:56:06.580 our lives fall apart

00:56:07.720 and we don't know

00:56:09.540 which way is up

00:56:10.380 or down

00:56:11.220 and so then

00:56:12.280 the question is

00:56:13.040 well if we have

00:56:13.940 to have faith

00:56:14.820 what is it

00:56:16.380 that we should

00:56:16.880 have faith in

00:56:17.760 and then the answer

00:56:18.940 seems to be

00:56:19.600 something like

00:56:20.400 well we should have

00:56:21.160 if we have to make

00:56:22.940 a decision about that

00:56:23.920 maybe we try to have

00:56:24.840 faith in what

00:56:25.700 in the idea

00:56:27.220 that the best

00:56:28.220 should be pursued

00:56:29.280 and will prevail

00:56:30.800 as an organizing principle

00:56:33.000 and then the question is

00:56:34.000 well what is the best

00:56:35.380 and the answer is

00:56:36.660 well that's really

00:56:37.400 hard question

00:56:38.300 and so we need

00:56:39.260 cathedrals

00:56:39.920 and we need

00:56:40.580 box music

00:56:41.480 and we need

00:56:42.280 the stories in Genesis

00:56:43.660 and we need

00:56:44.320 the world's great literature

00:56:45.500 and we need all of that

00:56:47.340 theater and drama

00:56:49.740 and art

00:56:50.400 and aesthetics

00:56:51.020 to help us understand

00:56:53.020 what the best is

00:56:54.040 and to determine

00:56:54.780 how it should prevail

00:56:55.700 and I don't see that

00:56:57.260 technically

00:56:57.860 as any different

00:56:58.860 from

00:56:59.220 I think it

00:57:00.440 is the same thing

00:57:01.960 psychologically

00:57:02.820 as the worship

00:57:04.700 of Christ

00:57:05.420 I think it's

00:57:06.560 the same thing

00:57:07.660 because

00:57:09.220 again I'm trying

00:57:10.940 to speak psychologically

00:57:11.920 to think about

00:57:12.760 what Christ represents

00:57:14.220 I'm not thinking

00:57:14.920 about him

00:57:15.580 as a historical figure

00:57:16.860 that's something

00:57:17.500 we can get to later

00:57:18.480 that image

00:57:22.200 which is seen

00:57:23.780 for example

00:57:24.460 laid out on

00:57:27.040 these massive

00:57:28.240 cathedral domes

00:57:29.480 Christ as logos

00:57:31.020 as generator

00:57:32.340 of the world

00:57:33.000 it's the idea

00:57:34.820 that the proper

00:57:35.580 mode of being

00:57:36.300 is brought into existence

00:57:37.840 by consciousness

00:57:38.880 that's operating

00:57:39.880 according to the

00:57:41.000 highest possible

00:57:41.740 principles

00:57:42.360 and like

00:57:44.180 why wouldn't

00:57:45.460 and that is

00:57:47.060 the kind of faith

00:57:48.180 that's maybe got

00:57:49.240 some courage

00:57:49.800 associated with it

00:57:50.760 right

00:57:50.980 I'm going to act

00:57:51.660 as if this is the case

00:57:52.880 we're all going to act

00:57:54.100 as if this is the case

00:57:55.300 now that begs the question

00:57:57.400 does that make it real

00:57:58.580 well

00:57:59.100 that's a harder question

00:58:01.960 yeah

00:58:04.740 Saint Anselm

00:58:05.520 thought about God

00:58:06.800 as that

00:58:07.440 than which

00:58:08.500 nothing greater

00:58:09.200 can be conceived

00:58:10.020 so he thought of God

00:58:11.760 as the highest

00:58:12.540 perfect good

00:58:13.740 and Aquinas too

00:58:14.580 thought of God

00:58:15.140 in a similar way

00:58:15.800 as absolute perfection

00:58:16.860 and I would say

00:58:18.740 that this kind of faith

00:58:19.740 though can be reasonable

00:58:20.700 it's not

00:58:22.180 in my view

00:58:22.920 at least

00:58:23.320 a kind of blind

00:58:24.400 shot in the dark

00:58:25.680 that you're just

00:58:26.200 wandering around

00:58:26.860 and you just kind of

00:58:27.520 make things up

00:58:28.120 I think there's actually

00:58:29.180 good philosophical reasons

00:58:30.640 to think

00:58:31.480 that there does

00:58:32.240 have to be

00:58:32.980 a first cause

00:58:34.560 there does have to be

00:58:35.960 a necessary being

00:58:37.140 and Aquinas puts

00:58:38.320 forward these arguments

00:58:39.660 and people have

00:58:40.820 I myself have

00:58:41.840 talked about these things

00:58:43.300 to my students

00:58:43.840 and online

00:58:44.540 there's

00:58:45.640 it's not just a

00:58:46.660 a shot in the dark

00:58:47.660 as it were

00:58:48.120 so

00:58:48.780 but I think you're right

00:58:50.300 that people do

00:58:51.160 need faith

00:58:52.160 in some sense

00:58:52.780 just to live

00:58:53.740 just to move forward

00:58:54.620 but I do think

00:58:55.660 that you might say

00:58:56.560 specifically

00:58:57.240 theistic faith

00:58:58.240 is something

00:58:59.200 that's very reasonable

00:59:00.560 you think of people

00:59:01.780 like William Lane Craig

00:59:02.660 who has devoted

00:59:04.100 a considerable amount

00:59:05.000 of his time

00:59:05.440 to exploring

00:59:06.120 the Kalam

00:59:06.860 cosmological argument

00:59:08.640 and I don't know

00:59:10.380 if you're familiar

00:59:10.800 with that argument

00:59:11.360 but it's quite simple

00:59:12.460 it just says that

00:59:13.360 oh yeah no

00:59:13.880 so

00:59:14.280 it says that

00:59:15.580 whatever begins

00:59:17.300 to exist

00:59:18.000 has a cause

00:59:19.400 that's the major premise

00:59:21.100 and then the minor premise

00:59:22.320 is the universe

00:59:23.260 began to exist

00:59:24.420 and therefore

00:59:25.780 the universe

00:59:26.360 has a cause

00:59:27.640 and by universe

00:59:28.380 what's meant in the argument

00:59:29.440 is all time

00:59:30.280 all space

00:59:31.420 and all matter

00:59:32.040 and so

00:59:33.360 if the universe

00:59:34.180 has a cause

00:59:34.940 that's prior to time

00:59:36.160 it must be something

00:59:37.580 that is timeless

00:59:38.600 or you might say eternal

00:59:40.560 if the cause of the universe

00:59:42.140 is the cause

00:59:43.000 of all matter

00:59:43.740 it must be prior to matter

00:59:45.640 it must be immaterial

00:59:47.140 if the cause of the universe

00:59:49.280 brought the whole universe

00:59:50.780 into existence

00:59:51.500 obviously the cause

00:59:52.740 of the universe

00:59:53.100 has to be immensely powerful

00:59:54.480 and so

00:59:55.920 you have

00:59:56.660 say in the

00:59:57.440 cosmological argument

00:59:59.300 the Kalam cosmological argument

01:00:01.100 an argument

01:00:02.320 a reason to believe

01:00:03.540 that God exists

01:00:05.080 and you know

01:00:06.140 we can talk about

01:00:06.920 whether that argument works

01:00:07.880 but you also have

01:00:08.620 other arguments

01:00:09.140 like the fine-tuning argument

01:00:10.280 and I read online

01:00:11.560 that you were

01:00:12.680 looking at the God hypothesis

01:00:14.240 and as you know

01:00:15.460 from reading that book

01:00:16.180 there is a lot

01:00:17.420 of very solid evidence

01:00:18.860 that the universe

01:00:20.980 is fine-tuned

01:00:22.140 and then if you're

01:00:23.120 going to explain

01:00:23.640 that fine-tuning

01:00:24.380 in terms of chance

01:00:25.320 the likelihood of that

01:00:26.760 is unbelievably unlikely

01:00:28.440 it would be like

01:00:29.220 if I won the lottery

01:00:30.440 every single day

01:00:31.200 of my whole life

01:00:31.840 it's much more unlikely

01:00:33.720 that the universe

01:00:35.260 could have been brought about

01:00:36.260 by chance

01:00:37.080 and still been able

01:00:38.060 to have life in it

01:00:39.360 so I think that

01:00:40.540 that to believe in God

01:00:42.200 is very much

01:00:42.960 a reasonable faith

01:00:43.840 it's not just

01:00:44.560 a random arbitrary

01:00:46.160 you know

01:00:48.000 wishful thinking

01:00:48.800 kind of view

01:00:49.820 yeah I would add

01:00:51.760 that I think

01:00:53.940 I'm hearing

01:00:54.320 two different kinds

01:00:55.020 of faith

01:00:55.560 at the same time

01:00:56.140 that ultimately

01:00:56.560 I believe

01:00:57.580 can be

01:00:58.500 in fact

01:00:58.900 the teaching

01:00:59.380 of the Catholic Church

01:01:00.280 that they are united

01:01:01.600 and that's

01:01:02.680 we call faith one

01:01:03.720 faith one

01:01:04.320 could be defined

01:01:05.260 as what must be

01:01:08.020 in existence

01:01:09.100 and true

01:01:10.120 in order for there

01:01:11.060 to be anything else

01:01:12.460 in existence

01:01:12.960 and true

01:01:13.840 and as you were

01:01:15.660 putting it Jordan

01:01:16.320 how do we make

01:01:17.140 any kind of decision

01:01:18.180 based upon

01:01:18.740 any kind of evidence

01:01:19.660 whatsoever

01:01:20.100 whether it's

01:01:20.920 in terms of

01:01:21.680 empirical matters

01:01:22.460 whether it's

01:01:22.920 in moral matters

01:01:23.940 there's so many

01:01:24.860 presuppositions

01:01:25.680 that we can't

01:01:26.500 make arguments about

01:01:27.560 but that must be true

01:01:28.720 in order for us

01:01:29.420 to make arguments

01:01:30.120 about anything

01:01:30.840 so that's the horizon

01:01:32.320 as it were

01:01:32.920 of faith

01:01:33.400 and we can't

01:01:34.160 not have faith

01:01:35.000 in that sense

01:01:35.680 but then as you put it

01:01:36.940 then it raises

01:01:37.980 the question

01:01:38.480 what do we have faith in

01:01:39.780 well

01:01:40.680 the Catholic answer

01:01:42.140 to that

01:01:42.620 the Christian answer

01:01:43.380 to that

01:01:43.780 in its broadest

01:01:44.800 possible sense

01:01:45.380 is you have faith

01:01:46.080 in Jesus Christ

01:01:46.840 Jesus Christ

01:01:47.420 is the logos

01:01:48.780 is the totality

01:01:50.520 of who God is

01:01:51.380 that horizon

01:01:52.160 of meaning

01:01:52.780 the horizon

01:01:53.500 of intelligibility

01:01:55.220 and that

01:01:56.320 whom you can

01:01:57.160 ultimately trust

01:01:57.980 that's the second

01:01:58.560 meaning of faith

01:01:59.340 which is not

01:02:00.060 really an epistemic

01:02:00.880 category

01:02:01.480 it presupposes

01:02:02.420 an epistemic category

01:02:03.900 which is belief

01:02:04.780 but it's ultimately

01:02:05.720 about trust

01:02:06.420 who do you most trust

01:02:07.680 and it's

01:02:08.540 the options there

01:02:09.780 are really

01:02:10.900 quite limited

01:02:11.780 either you're going

01:02:12.180 to trust something

01:02:12.800 in the world

01:02:13.440 you're going

01:02:14.440 to trust yourself

01:02:15.240 or you're going

01:02:16.140 to trust God

01:02:16.740 and anything

01:02:18.280 in the world

01:02:18.940 and yourself

01:02:19.960 you'll be let down

01:02:21.980 guaranteed

01:02:22.840 you'll be let down

01:02:24.060 disastrously

01:02:25.260 in fact

01:02:26.020 so the third option

01:02:27.460 is you trust

01:02:28.940 Christ

01:02:29.660 who

01:02:30.440 through revelation

01:02:31.560 we see

01:02:32.160 loves you infinitely

01:02:33.540 so in that sense

01:02:34.920 Christ once again

01:02:35.980 solves the problem

01:02:36.920 of faith

01:02:37.520 both at its beginning

01:02:38.580 and at its end

01:02:39.600 okay so let's

01:02:41.440 delve into that again

01:02:43.200 so I mentioned

01:02:44.900 earlier when we

01:02:46.680 were talking

01:02:47.180 that you could

01:02:49.580 conceptualize

01:02:50.400 Christ psychologically

01:02:51.740 as the representation

01:02:55.680 of all things

01:02:57.500 that strike us

01:02:58.440 as admirable

01:02:59.200 so here's an example

01:03:04.280 you know

01:03:04.740 when I used to

01:03:05.820 watch my kids

01:03:07.020 play house

01:03:07.920 my son

01:03:09.840 would play

01:03:10.300 the father

01:03:10.820 and my

01:03:11.400 daughter

01:03:12.920 would play

01:03:13.300 the mother

01:03:13.700 and she would

01:03:15.100 act out

01:03:16.240 being a mother

01:03:17.120 and you might say

01:03:17.780 well she was

01:03:18.220 imitating my wife

01:03:19.420 but she wasn't

01:03:20.920 because

01:03:21.240 she wasn't

01:03:22.820 copying her

01:03:23.740 exactly

01:03:24.220 because

01:03:24.640 you know

01:03:25.320 my wife

01:03:25.760 would walk

01:03:26.240 across the kitchen

01:03:27.040 in a particular

01:03:27.620 way

01:03:27.980 and

01:03:28.180 pick up

01:03:30.380 a plate

01:03:31.440 and bring it

01:03:31.980 to the table

01:03:32.540 in a particular

01:03:33.100 way

01:03:33.360 like there were

01:03:33.880 to copy that

01:03:35.280 is to duplicate

01:03:36.080 it exactly

01:03:36.940 with your body

01:03:37.860 right

01:03:38.400 which I could do

01:03:39.140 if I was

01:03:39.520 imitating you

01:03:40.400 something you'd

01:03:41.880 find very annoying

01:03:43.040 anyways

01:03:44.400 what the child

01:03:45.380 does

01:03:45.840 is something

01:03:46.900 quite different

01:03:47.620 they

01:03:48.620 they watch

01:03:50.160 the father

01:03:50.740 across time

01:03:51.760 and they watch

01:03:52.660 the mother

01:03:53.040 across time

01:03:53.700 and they extract

01:03:54.680 out

01:03:55.200 those elements

01:03:56.500 of perception

01:03:57.660 and action

01:03:58.260 that can be

01:03:58.920 imitated

01:03:59.420 that constitute

01:04:00.400 the spirit

01:04:01.240 of the mother

01:04:01.920 and the spirit

01:04:03.000 of the father

01:04:03.660 and then that's

01:04:04.800 what they manifest

01:04:05.500 in their play

01:04:06.460 and so they're

01:04:07.820 doing that

01:04:08.220 at a very

01:04:08.660 very early age

01:04:09.400 it's not

01:04:09.820 direct mimicry

01:04:10.940 it's as if

01:04:12.860 they're working

01:04:14.500 out the story

01:04:15.480 of what it's

01:04:16.140 like to be

01:04:16.640 a father

01:04:17.140 and they're

01:04:17.800 acting that out

01:04:18.460 now they use

01:04:19.300 their observations

01:04:21.640 of their actual

01:04:22.640 father

01:04:23.080 to fill in

01:04:24.320 that play

01:04:25.720 space

01:04:26.740 that imaginative

01:04:27.540 space

01:04:27.900 but they also

01:04:28.520 get information

01:04:29.300 from movies

01:04:30.920 and television

01:04:31.640 and all the

01:04:32.560 books they've

01:04:33.080 been read

01:04:33.560 and all of

01:04:34.100 that is feeding

01:04:34.980 their embodiment

01:04:36.680 of the father

01:04:37.540 and so

01:04:38.960 and this isn't

01:04:40.180 something that's

01:04:40.820 rational exactly

01:04:41.880 so let's say

01:04:42.600 the child

01:04:43.580 as a consequence

01:04:45.400 of this felt

01:04:46.660 sense of admiration

01:04:47.780 focuses on a

01:04:49.500 particular attribute

01:04:50.440 in a book

01:04:51.580 watches the hero

01:04:52.840 of the story

01:04:53.640 and is compelled

01:04:55.100 to incorporate

01:04:55.900 that into their

01:04:56.840 representation

01:04:57.440 and so

01:04:58.880 they're trying

01:05:00.400 to act out

01:05:01.020 what's admirable

01:05:01.800 and then faith

01:05:02.660 in that sense

01:05:03.460 is

01:05:05.620 what is it

01:05:08.100 is

01:05:09.020 is it

01:05:11.360 willingness

01:05:11.820 to act out

01:05:13.320 the proposition

01:05:14.080 that what we

01:05:15.640 find admirable

01:05:16.800 will in fact

01:05:17.820 be the most

01:05:19.120 appropriate guide

01:05:20.160 to how we should

01:05:21.080 act in the world

01:05:21.880 because you have

01:05:23.300 the child acting

01:05:24.360 out the father

01:05:25.000 but then there

01:05:25.580 would be the set

01:05:26.300 of all fathers

01:05:27.080 and then there

01:05:27.680 would be what

01:05:28.140 was extracted

01:05:28.760 out of that

01:05:29.320 that would be

01:05:29.860 the ultimately

01:05:31.240 admirable ideal

01:05:32.840 which is like

01:05:34.660 God brought to

01:05:35.600 earth

01:05:35.940 if God is

01:05:37.320 that which

01:05:38.480 no greater

01:05:39.400 can be imagined

01:05:40.300 and then that's

01:05:42.080 embodied

01:05:42.580 which is the

01:05:43.340 Christian idea

01:05:44.640 then what's most

01:05:46.540 admirable

01:05:47.100 is embodied

01:05:49.020 in the figure

01:05:49.660 of Christ

01:05:50.200 and that's

01:05:50.980 the thing

01:05:51.820 to imitate

01:05:52.420 and the faith

01:05:53.400 isn't belief

01:05:54.140 that that's real

01:05:54.980 I don't believe

01:05:55.660 that the faith

01:05:56.380 is willingness

01:05:57.560 to act that

01:05:58.240 out of the world

01:05:58.960 that's a different

01:06:00.440 thing

01:06:00.880 because we make

01:06:02.340 this propositional

01:06:03.300 too much

01:06:03.860 I don't think

01:06:04.360 it is

01:06:04.900 because the

01:06:08.520 imitate

01:06:08.900 is the imitation

01:06:10.060 of Christ

01:06:10.560 the central issue

01:06:11.400 it's not only

01:06:11.880 propositional

01:06:12.580 oh sorry

01:06:13.060 sorry everyone

01:06:15.960 there's a bit

01:06:16.460 of a lag

01:06:16.940 on our connection

01:06:17.640 so that's why

01:06:18.280 we're awkwardly

01:06:19.060 interrupting one

01:06:19.780 another

01:06:20.060 so please

01:06:21.980 go ahead

01:06:22.280 I think

01:06:22.640 I would say

01:06:24.620 that it's

01:06:25.160 it's not only

01:06:25.800 propositional

01:06:26.480 and in fact

01:06:27.100 on a final

01:06:28.500 analysis

01:06:28.920 the propositional

01:06:29.740 components

01:06:30.800 of the faith

01:06:31.360 may be the

01:06:31.980 least important

01:06:32.920 I would say

01:06:33.300 they're necessary

01:06:34.000 but certainly

01:06:35.000 not sufficient

01:06:35.640 but as you're

01:06:37.420 describing your

01:06:37.980 conception of faith

01:06:38.760 the word

01:06:39.460 that really

01:06:40.620 stuck out for me

01:06:42.180 is that

01:06:42.760 this will happen

01:06:44.540 that I act

01:06:45.540 according to

01:06:46.340 a belief

01:06:47.420 or to an

01:06:48.160 intuition

01:06:48.600 that if I

01:06:51.140 act a certain

01:06:51.860 according to

01:06:53.080 a certain

01:06:53.360 kind of pattern

01:06:54.180 that I will

01:06:55.420 realize

01:06:56.140 the

01:06:56.740 nature

01:06:59.080 of the

01:06:59.660 pattern

01:07:00.120 itself

01:07:00.740 I think

01:07:01.680 that's

01:07:02.000 certainly

01:07:02.300 part of it

01:07:02.900 from a

01:07:03.240 Christian

01:07:03.460 perspective

01:07:03.880 it absolutely

01:07:04.480 is

01:07:04.760 it has

01:07:05.120 to be

01:07:05.340 because

01:07:05.600 it's

01:07:05.800 metaphysically

01:07:06.420 the case

01:07:06.960 that God

01:07:07.400 created

01:07:07.840 all things

01:07:09.040 good

01:07:09.380 and so

01:07:09.700 this pattern

01:07:10.240 is embedded

01:07:10.780 absolutely

01:07:11.460 everywhere

01:07:12.020 in creation

01:07:12.720 including

01:07:13.120 in the human

01:07:13.620 mind

01:07:13.860 including

01:07:14.180 in the

01:07:14.460 human

01:07:14.680 soul

01:07:15.020 however

01:07:15.900 there's

01:07:16.260 the problem

01:07:16.900 of sin

01:07:17.440 right

01:07:17.720 we live

01:07:18.380 in a

01:07:18.740 world

01:07:19.260 that is

01:07:19.740 radically

01:07:20.220 fallen

01:07:20.680 starting

01:07:21.200 with

01:07:21.520 the

01:07:21.980 broken

01:07:22.680 natures

01:07:23.100 of our

01:07:23.400 own

01:07:23.620 selves

01:07:24.020 and so

01:07:24.800 the will

01:07:25.400 there

01:07:25.920 is not

01:07:27.100 just

01:07:27.480 the question

01:07:28.300 is do I

01:07:28.780 have any

01:07:29.120 reason to

01:07:29.520 believe that

01:07:29.960 my acting

01:07:30.520 according to

01:07:31.100 this pattern

01:07:31.820 will actually

01:07:32.980 bring about

01:07:34.720 the desired

01:07:35.880 outcome that I

01:07:36.620 hope for

01:07:37.120 and that's where

01:07:38.100 Jesus Christ

01:07:38.940 moves from

01:07:39.500 being the

01:07:40.000 teacher

01:07:40.480 who

01:07:41.360 not only

01:07:42.820 gives the

01:07:43.340 pattern

01:07:43.680 but instantiates

01:07:44.760 the pattern

01:07:45.180 to the

01:07:45.620 savior

01:07:45.980 because the

01:07:46.900 reality is

01:07:47.340 no you

01:07:48.060 will I

01:07:48.600 will not

01:07:49.420 I will

01:07:50.360 fail

01:07:50.780 and again

01:07:51.240 fail

01:07:51.540 disastrously

01:07:52.280 so it

01:07:53.620 is only

01:07:54.020 because this

01:07:55.140 archetype

01:07:56.440 of moral

01:07:57.440 truth and

01:07:58.020 goodness

01:07:58.360 is actually

01:07:59.380 willing to

01:08:01.040 reach into

01:08:01.780 my life

01:08:02.420 into our

01:08:02.920 lives

01:08:03.320 that that

01:08:04.080 will actually

01:08:05.080 can have

01:08:05.580 any meaning

01:08:06.100 and really

01:08:07.260 command any

01:08:08.680 kind of

01:08:09.000 belief

01:08:09.280 that's why

01:08:09.780 I believe

01:08:10.600 is because

01:08:11.200 it's not

01:08:11.620 just a

01:08:12.140 pattern that

01:08:12.600 I'm seeking

01:08:13.000 to conform

01:08:13.560 to

01:08:13.840 it's a

01:08:14.760 person who's

01:08:15.340 reaching out

01:08:15.820 to me

01:08:16.320 it's both

01:08:18.220 so if

01:08:18.920 that's the

01:08:19.380 case then

01:08:20.000 why is it

01:08:20.840 necessary for

01:08:22.400 us to

01:08:22.920 strive to

01:08:23.580 be good

01:08:24.200 like what

01:08:28.580 role does

01:08:29.020 our moral

01:08:29.460 striving play

01:08:30.360 because it's

01:08:32.040 the same

01:08:32.380 reason I

01:08:32.760 would strive

01:08:33.100 to be a

01:08:33.440 good husband

01:08:34.000 and not

01:08:36.280 only in a

01:08:36.760 generic sense

01:08:37.440 that I

01:08:37.720 have a

01:08:38.160 certain set

01:08:38.920 of criteria

01:08:39.960 that this

01:08:41.400 is what

01:08:41.640 defines being

01:08:42.200 a good

01:08:42.460 husband is

01:08:43.340 and so

01:08:43.600 therefore I'm

01:08:44.140 going to

01:08:44.440 act to it

01:08:44.920 sort of

01:08:45.200 duty bound

01:08:45.820 so again

01:08:46.760 duty is

01:08:47.180 necessary but

01:08:47.800 not sufficient

01:08:48.400 I act out

01:08:49.400 of love

01:08:49.940 so I

01:08:50.760 seek to

01:08:51.260 be good

01:08:51.820 because I

01:08:53.080 love that

01:08:53.860 he who

01:08:54.760 loves me

01:08:55.820 and again

01:08:56.980 at that

01:08:57.480 point duty

01:08:58.080 is it

01:08:58.740 ruins the

01:08:59.500 story it

01:09:00.000 ruins the

01:09:00.520 relationship

01:09:00.980 it's I

01:09:02.080 am loved

01:09:02.640 and I

01:09:03.120 wish to

01:09:03.600 love and

01:09:04.100 I recognize

01:09:04.600 I will

01:09:04.980 fail time

01:09:05.560 and time

01:09:05.900 again but

01:09:07.400 I love

01:09:08.000 because I

01:09:09.600 love he

01:09:10.320 who loves

01:09:10.880 me and

01:09:11.960 and that

01:09:12.260 and conversely

01:09:13.300 that's also

01:09:13.920 what leads

01:09:14.340 to my

01:09:14.680 ultimate

01:09:14.980 happiness

01:09:15.420 so I

01:09:16.560 think I

01:09:16.900 think one

01:09:17.200 thing that's

01:09:17.640 that is

01:09:18.400 could really

01:09:19.720 complete a

01:09:20.360 lot of

01:09:20.660 the theological

01:09:22.460 reflections in

01:09:23.420 your work more

01:09:23.800 broadly is a

01:09:24.600 conception of

01:09:25.240 grace a lot

01:09:27.160 of the

01:09:27.320 Christianity I

01:09:28.020 see in

01:09:29.140 terms of

01:09:29.500 its ideas

01:09:30.780 in your

01:09:31.200 work is a

01:09:31.820 Christianity

01:09:32.220 without grace

01:09:33.080 now grace we

01:09:33.680 have to define

01:09:34.180 very carefully

01:09:34.820 but at the

01:09:36.260 end of the

01:09:36.540 day a

01:09:37.020 Christianity

01:09:37.340 without grace

01:09:38.240 is not

01:09:39.540 Christianity

01:09:40.300 one distinction

01:09:42.760 one distinction

01:09:42.780 that might help

01:09:43.280 our conversation

01:09:43.860 is the

01:09:44.540 distinction

01:09:44.920 between a

01:09:45.860 living faith

01:09:46.440 and dead

01:09:46.800 faith so

01:09:47.840 for a

01:09:49.320 living faith

01:09:49.860 what that

01:09:50.240 is is a

01:09:50.700 faith that

01:09:51.620 is enlivened

01:09:53.800 by charity

01:09:54.360 and it's a

01:09:55.680 faith in

01:09:56.260 which God's

01:09:57.200 own love

01:09:57.960 sort of works

01:09:58.820 through me

01:09:59.280 God's love

01:09:59.740 is in me

01:10:00.160 and I

01:10:00.580 express God's

01:10:01.680 love to

01:10:02.420 others

01:10:02.800 now we

01:10:03.860 say well

01:10:04.220 why do we

01:10:04.740 need to worry

01:10:05.220 about being

01:10:05.600 good I

01:10:05.980 mean if

01:10:06.560 Jesus is

01:10:07.880 doing all

01:10:08.220 the work

01:10:08.600 then you

01:10:09.240 know I

01:10:09.740 can just

01:10:10.020 do whatever

01:10:10.340 I want

01:10:10.740 but part

01:10:11.700 of the

01:10:11.880 answer would

01:10:12.280 be that

01:10:13.260 for me to

01:10:14.060 have a

01:10:14.320 living faith

01:10:14.840 I have to

01:10:15.340 maintain that

01:10:15.980 connection with

01:10:16.580 God so

01:10:17.920 it's possible

01:10:19.100 to just as it

01:10:20.220 is with a

01:10:20.540 human relationship

01:10:21.180 it's possible

01:10:22.080 to damage a

01:10:22.760 relationship in

01:10:23.480 a kind of

01:10:23.900 minor way

01:10:24.480 but it's also

01:10:25.280 possible to

01:10:25.900 damage a

01:10:26.400 relationship in

01:10:26.980 a really

01:10:27.260 deadly way

01:10:27.960 so that our

01:10:28.740 friendship is

01:10:29.240 just over

01:10:29.760 in virtue of

01:10:30.400 me punching

01:10:31.340 him in the

01:10:31.640 face or doing

01:10:32.080 something just

01:10:32.480 terrible and

01:10:33.660 the same thing

01:10:34.100 would be true

01:10:34.520 for God

01:10:35.060 that we

01:10:36.120 have this

01:10:36.760 relationship

01:10:37.200 with God

01:10:37.580 or we

01:10:37.800 can but

01:10:38.740 it's possible

01:10:39.220 for us to

01:10:40.000 so damage

01:10:40.660 that relationship

01:10:41.480 that we no

01:10:43.200 longer have

01:10:43.700 living faith

01:10:44.280 the best we

01:10:45.320 could have

01:10:45.580 is dead

01:10:46.060 faith

01:10:46.380 I believe

01:10:47.200 in a

01:10:47.420 proposition

01:10:47.940 that God

01:10:48.520 exists

01:10:48.920 and you

01:10:49.900 know maybe

01:10:50.200 that informs

01:10:51.260 me in certain

01:10:51.720 ways but

01:10:52.160 basically I

01:10:52.640 don't have a

01:10:53.060 living faith

01:10:53.500 at all

01:10:53.920 and so

01:10:55.000 the things

01:10:56.340 I do

01:10:56.760 can't be an

01:10:57.600 expression

01:10:58.000 ultimately of

01:10:59.160 my union

01:10:59.540 with God

01:11:00.040 that spills

01:11:00.680 over into

01:11:01.500 loving other

01:11:02.240 people because

01:11:03.100 in the

01:11:03.300 Catholic view

01:11:03.860 Jesus is

01:11:05.700 the ultimate

01:11:07.080 pattern you

01:11:07.860 might say

01:11:08.320 but the

01:11:08.680 ultimate

01:11:08.920 pattern

01:11:09.380 becomes part

01:11:11.660 of our

01:11:11.920 lives

01:11:12.220 through us

01:11:13.480 being united

01:11:14.080 with him

01:11:14.540 so there's

01:11:15.840 different

01:11:16.060 metaphors used

01:11:16.780 in scripture

01:11:17.220 like he's

01:11:17.940 the vine

01:11:18.420 and you

01:11:18.720 are the

01:11:18.900 branches

01:11:19.280 and he

01:11:21.020 is the

01:11:21.300 head

01:11:21.560 and you

01:11:21.880 were part

01:11:22.320 of his

01:11:22.540 body

01:11:22.880 but another

01:11:24.260 beautiful way

01:11:24.980 of thinking

01:11:25.280 about it

01:11:25.700 and I

01:11:26.120 just ran

01:11:26.580 across this

01:11:27.120 in a

01:11:27.560 book called

01:11:28.200 Christ

01:11:28.540 Alive

01:11:28.940 and Me

01:11:29.320 by this

01:11:29.800 Jesuit

01:11:30.200 priest

01:11:30.580 Father

01:11:31.200 David

01:11:31.620 Makoni

01:11:32.160 and it

01:11:32.540 was a

01:11:32.700 great

01:11:32.860 kind of

01:11:33.320 analogy

01:11:33.740 and he

01:11:34.420 said

01:11:34.660 imagine

01:11:35.260 as if

01:11:35.600 God

01:11:35.820 is a

01:11:36.080 sort of

01:11:36.360 burning

01:11:36.640 furnace

01:11:37.120 and then

01:11:37.940 you're

01:11:38.140 like the

01:11:38.480 hot iron

01:11:39.020 that's put

01:11:39.420 in this

01:11:39.660 furnace

01:11:39.880 and kind

01:11:40.180 of heated

01:11:40.540 up

01:11:40.940 well the

01:11:41.760 heat

01:11:42.520 and the

01:11:43.180 light

01:11:43.440 from that

01:11:43.780 fire

01:11:44.000 gets into

01:11:44.780 the iron

01:11:46.140 and you

01:11:46.620 take it

01:11:46.900 out of

01:11:47.080 the fire

01:11:47.440 and it's

01:11:48.120 still like

01:11:48.580 lit up

01:11:49.020 and it's

01:11:49.260 still super

01:11:49.720 hot

01:11:50.020 because the

01:11:50.420 heat

01:11:50.600 has kind

01:11:51.140 of gotten

01:11:51.400 inside

01:11:51.880 and so

01:11:52.680 in the

01:11:52.860 Christian

01:11:53.160 view

01:11:53.520 we

01:11:54.680 are

01:11:55.360 in this

01:11:56.720 relationship

01:11:57.140 and we

01:11:57.460 want to

01:11:57.760 let God

01:11:58.660 inside

01:11:59.160 and then

01:11:59.940 hopefully

01:12:00.340 God

01:12:00.800 remains

01:12:01.720 in us

01:12:01.960 we don't

01:12:02.260 kick

01:12:02.480 God

01:12:02.680 out

01:12:02.960 I mean

01:12:03.160 God

01:12:03.320 wouldn't

01:12:03.720 leave

01:12:03.980 of his

01:12:04.220 own

01:12:04.320 accord

01:12:04.560 but we

01:12:04.820 can kick

01:12:05.100 him out

01:12:05.340 through

01:12:05.500 serious

01:12:05.980 wrongdoing

01:12:07.240 but hopefully

01:12:08.180 that light

01:12:08.720 and that

01:12:09.000 fire

01:12:09.380 makes us

01:12:11.160 more alive

01:12:11.800 and makes

01:12:12.260 us able

01:12:12.740 to give

01:12:13.520 some of

01:12:13.880 that light

01:12:14.320 and that

01:12:14.640 fire

01:12:14.960 to other

01:12:16.400 people

01:12:16.720 who are

01:12:17.540 in need

01:12:18.420 other people

01:12:18.860 that need

01:12:19.560 God's mercy

01:12:20.160 and they

01:12:20.500 need God's

01:12:21.400 help

01:12:21.620 so it's

01:12:22.720 not just

01:12:23.100 a teacher

01:12:23.560 student

01:12:24.040 kind of

01:12:24.360 relationship

01:12:24.840 that Jesus

01:12:26.180 is a little

01:12:26.660 bit like

01:12:26.960 Socrates

01:12:27.400 I mean

01:12:28.120 I love

01:12:28.380 Socrates

01:12:28.780 I love

01:12:29.260 Aristotle

01:12:29.660 they are

01:12:30.080 absolutely

01:12:30.460 terrific

01:12:30.820 but the

01:12:31.540 idea of

01:12:31.860 Jesus

01:12:32.080 is beyond

01:12:33.020 just a

01:12:33.960 good teacher

01:12:34.440 beyond

01:12:35.040 just a

01:12:35.600 good example

01:12:36.080 but that

01:12:36.940 the life

01:12:37.800 of Jesus

01:12:38.360 would actually

01:12:38.960 live in

01:12:39.520 in you

01:12:40.540 and so

01:12:41.160 this is

01:12:41.480 called by

01:12:41.800 different

01:12:42.060 names

01:12:42.340 sometimes

01:12:42.620 it's

01:12:42.860 called

01:12:43.000 theosis

01:12:43.620 deification

01:12:44.820 sanctifying

01:12:45.900 grace

01:12:46.160 these are

01:12:46.460 all kind

01:12:46.840 of

01:12:46.960 different

01:12:47.700 terms

01:12:48.100 for the

01:12:48.380 same

01:12:48.580 idea

01:12:48.960 but the

01:12:49.480 basic

01:12:49.700 idea

01:12:50.020 is that

01:12:50.400 the

01:12:50.760 heat

01:12:51.080 and the

01:12:51.420 light

01:12:51.580 of

01:12:51.720 God

01:12:52.060 becomes

01:12:53.140 part

01:12:53.360 of

01:12:53.460 you

01:12:53.680 and then

01:12:54.520 hopefully

01:12:54.820 you're

01:12:55.040 able to

01:12:55.520 make the

01:12:56.320 world a

01:12:56.660 better

01:12:56.800 place

01:12:57.220 and be

01:12:58.200 a better

01:12:58.540 husband

01:12:58.900 be a

01:12:59.240 better

01:12:59.380 father

01:12:59.780 be a

01:13:00.180 better

01:13:00.340 friend

01:13:00.760 be a

01:13:01.400 better

01:13:01.560 professor

01:13:02.000 you can

01:13:02.360 do the

01:13:02.780 things you

01:13:03.060 do in

01:13:03.900 a new

01:13:04.140 way

01:13:04.420 because you

01:13:04.980 have this

01:13:05.480 light and

01:13:06.440 this heat

01:13:06.780 within you

01:13:07.460 I have

01:13:11.600 two more

01:13:12.400 questions

01:13:12.860 if you don't

01:13:13.480 mind

01:13:13.780 let's

01:13:14.180 talk about

01:13:15.760 the evolution

01:13:17.300 issue

01:13:17.880 I mean

01:13:19.200 it looks

01:13:20.980 to me

01:13:21.340 like the

01:13:21.920 story of

01:13:22.480 creation

01:13:24.560 in Genesis

01:13:25.200 and the

01:13:25.680 story of

01:13:26.320 Adam and

01:13:27.160 Eve

01:13:27.360 is in

01:13:29.040 large part

01:13:29.680 a description

01:13:31.180 of the

01:13:32.460 role of

01:13:32.940 consciousness

01:13:33.420 in being

01:13:34.280 the idea

01:13:36.620 that

01:13:36.920 the beginning

01:13:39.520 itself is

01:13:40.200 associated with

01:13:40.980 the dawn of

01:13:41.520 light

01:13:41.780 it's

01:13:42.060 like the

01:13:43.600 experience of

01:13:44.380 the day

01:13:44.880 of the

01:13:45.260 morning sun

01:13:45.980 it's that

01:13:46.460 things spring

01:13:47.400 into being

01:13:48.020 and so

01:13:48.440 there's some

01:13:49.440 allusion to

01:13:50.020 consciousness

01:13:50.420 itself there

01:13:51.260 and then

01:13:51.620 the fall

01:13:53.520 of Adam

01:13:54.440 and Eve

01:13:54.780 seems to

01:13:55.280 involve

01:13:55.640 something like

01:13:56.220 the development

01:13:56.800 of self

01:13:58.000 consciousness

01:13:58.560 and so

01:14:00.060 that's one

01:14:01.520 way of

01:14:01.980 conceptualizing

01:14:03.340 creation and

01:14:04.440 the human

01:14:05.080 role in it

01:14:05.820 and maybe

01:14:07.080 our fallen

01:14:07.700 state to

01:14:08.440 some degree

01:14:08.960 as well

01:14:09.400 as the

01:14:09.780 corrupting

01:14:10.460 influence of

01:14:11.160 self consciousness

01:14:11.920 the terror

01:14:13.280 that it

01:14:13.680 generates

01:14:14.800 it's

01:14:16.340 difficult to

01:14:17.800 square that

01:14:18.660 account

01:14:19.100 in some

01:14:20.280 sense with

01:14:20.940 theories of

01:14:21.880 evolution

01:14:22.380 and I'm

01:14:24.340 curious about

01:14:25.160 how you

01:14:26.440 two manage

01:14:27.180 that

01:14:27.580 like

01:14:27.960 you're

01:14:28.980 both

01:14:29.960 and correct

01:14:31.020 me if I'm

01:14:31.540 wrong but

01:14:32.000 you both

01:14:32.760 accept the

01:14:34.140 broad outlines

01:14:35.080 of modern

01:14:35.600 cosmology and

01:14:36.480 evolutionary

01:14:36.920 theory

01:14:37.560 and so

01:14:38.840 how do

01:14:39.740 you see

01:14:40.260 the

01:14:41.140 Christian

01:14:42.820 narrative

01:14:43.340 how do

01:14:45.780 you see

01:14:46.100 it in

01:14:46.600 juxtaposition

01:14:48.260 with that

01:14:48.780 I mean that

01:14:49.200 was certainly

01:14:49.580 a problem

01:14:50.060 for Darwin

01:14:50.720 I mean it

01:14:51.980 just about

01:14:52.600 drove him

01:14:52.980 out of his

01:14:53.320 mind

01:14:53.660 so

01:14:53.980 so in

01:14:56.760 the Catholic

01:14:57.120 tradition

01:14:57.540 there is

01:14:58.560 a long

01:14:58.920 history

01:14:59.300 of reading

01:14:59.780 Genesis

01:15:00.220 in a way

01:15:01.840 that's sensitive

01:15:02.380 to its

01:15:02.900 context

01:15:03.600 so there

01:15:04.420 are some

01:15:05.020 readers

01:15:05.420 like St.

01:15:05.880 Ambrose

01:15:07.660 who did

01:15:08.460 hold for

01:15:08.900 instance

01:15:09.200 that the

01:15:09.520 seven days

01:15:10.220 of creation

01:15:10.760 were seven

01:15:11.620 24 hour

01:15:12.260 periods

01:15:12.720 but most

01:15:13.760 Catholic

01:15:14.120 interpreters

01:15:14.820 Augustine

01:15:15.640 Thomas Aquinas

01:15:17.180 John Paul II

01:15:18.260 Pope Francis

01:15:19.580 don't interpret

01:15:20.780 it in that

01:15:21.420 sort of way

01:15:21.940 so I think

01:15:22.980 Genesis is

01:15:23.560 teaching us

01:15:24.020 very very

01:15:24.520 important

01:15:24.880 truths

01:15:25.340 but it's

01:15:26.360 not teaching

01:15:27.100 us about

01:15:27.960 contemporary

01:15:28.380 science

01:15:28.860 so I would

01:15:29.720 say it's

01:15:30.040 not for

01:15:30.660 or against

01:15:31.620 evolution

01:15:32.040 it's just

01:15:32.440 not trying

01:15:33.620 to do

01:15:34.640 contemporary

01:15:35.020 science

01:15:35.480 so what

01:15:36.200 is it

01:15:36.440 trying to

01:15:36.820 do

01:15:36.940 well

01:15:37.220 it's

01:15:37.440 trying to

01:15:37.680 teach us

01:15:37.920 important

01:15:38.240 truths

01:15:38.580 and you

01:15:39.400 have in

01:15:39.880 your lectures

01:15:40.340 explored a

01:15:41.200 number of

01:15:41.520 those important

01:15:42.780 truths

01:15:43.080 but here's

01:15:43.980 another truth

01:15:44.960 that at least

01:15:45.380 I think is

01:15:45.880 quite significant

01:15:46.600 in terms of

01:15:47.460 the Genesis

01:15:48.420 story

01:15:48.840 if we take

01:15:50.200 the Genesis

01:15:50.540 story as

01:15:51.320 a poetic

01:15:52.660 and

01:15:53.300 imagery

01:15:54.780 filled

01:15:55.420 kind of

01:15:56.180 narrative

01:15:56.520 one of the

01:15:57.080 points I think

01:15:57.660 is that all

01:15:58.860 human beings

01:15:59.520 ultimately are

01:16:00.820 part of one

01:16:01.420 human family

01:16:02.140 that is say

01:16:03.440 everyone on

01:16:04.200 planet earth

01:16:04.760 I should treat

01:16:05.960 as if they are

01:16:06.840 distantly a

01:16:07.800 brother or

01:16:08.320 sister of

01:16:08.760 mine

01:16:09.000 and if you

01:16:09.960 look at some

01:16:10.360 of the other

01:16:10.940 rival stories of

01:16:11.920 creation

01:16:12.300 if you look

01:16:13.160 at for instance

01:16:13.980 Plato's

01:16:15.040 Symposium

01:16:15.520 he has a

01:16:16.260 story there

01:16:16.880 that is spoken

01:16:17.880 by Aristophanes

01:16:18.760 and Aristophanes

01:16:20.000 in that story

01:16:20.980 says well

01:16:21.720 human beings

01:16:22.300 arose from

01:16:22.720 three different

01:16:23.260 sources

01:16:23.720 some arose

01:16:24.740 from the

01:16:25.040 sun

01:16:25.300 some arose

01:16:26.180 from the

01:16:26.540 moon

01:16:26.800 some arose

01:16:27.640 from the

01:16:28.680 earth

01:16:28.920 and so we

01:16:29.340 all come

01:16:29.740 from these

01:16:30.060 different places

01:16:30.620 and on that

01:16:31.320 view

01:16:32.100 ultimately other

01:16:33.540 human beings

01:16:34.080 literally could

01:16:35.140 be from a

01:16:35.460 different planet

01:16:35.940 and so

01:16:36.880 there's ethical

01:16:38.260 consequences for

01:16:39.080 that

01:16:39.320 if we really

01:16:40.200 took seriously

01:16:40.820 the idea

01:16:41.360 that all

01:16:42.520 human beings

01:16:43.280 are part of

01:16:44.380 one human

01:16:44.840 family

01:16:45.240 that is I

01:16:46.640 think a

01:16:46.880 revolutionary idea

01:16:47.860 and centuries

01:16:48.460 and centuries

01:16:48.920 later that idea

01:16:50.080 was developed

01:16:50.660 into this idea

01:16:51.400 that we still

01:16:51.840 have of

01:16:52.760 human rights

01:16:53.440 right the idea

01:16:54.300 of human rights

01:16:54.760 is that every

01:16:55.340 single human

01:16:55.820 being regardless

01:16:56.700 of race

01:16:57.280 religion age

01:16:58.580 it doesn't

01:16:58.840 matter all

01:17:00.100 human beings

01:17:00.720 deserve fundamental

01:17:02.300 respect in other

01:17:03.700 words you might

01:17:04.160 say all human

01:17:04.880 beings are part of

01:17:05.520 one human family

01:17:06.220 we're all equal

01:17:07.340 in dignity and so

01:17:08.480 we should be

01:17:08.880 respected so I

01:17:10.200 think Genesis is

01:17:10.900 teaching us incredibly

01:17:11.860 important truths

01:17:12.720 like that truth that

01:17:14.200 we should respect all

01:17:15.220 human beings as part

01:17:16.060 of one human family

01:17:16.880 but I do think it's a

01:17:18.340 misreading of

01:17:19.180 Genesis to look

01:17:21.460 to Genesis as if

01:17:22.740 it's a science

01:17:23.260 textbook just like

01:17:24.540 we wouldn't look

01:17:24.960 to Genesis you

01:17:25.880 know to again I

01:17:26.740 mentioned this

01:17:27.320 earlier we wouldn't

01:17:28.220 look to Genesis to

01:17:29.000 find answers about

01:17:29.880 well should I buy

01:17:30.740 an iPhone or should

01:17:32.000 I buy an Android

01:17:32.660 phone like that's

01:17:34.060 just Genesis isn't

01:17:35.440 trying to do that

01:17:36.240 it's not for or

01:17:37.140 against iPhones it's

01:17:37.960 just not about

01:17:38.520 iPhones and so

01:17:39.660 Genesis just isn't

01:17:40.760 for or against

01:17:41.580 evolution it's it's

01:17:42.680 just not talking

01:17:43.860 about that kind of

01:17:44.460 thing at all

01:17:45.020 yeah I would just

01:17:46.840 say I think I think

01:17:47.640 the root question

01:17:48.560 the more important

01:17:49.980 question both morally

01:17:51.260 and metaphysically

01:17:52.980 with regards to

01:17:54.420 evolution and God

01:17:56.400 and existence is is

01:17:57.700 existence arbitrary

01:17:59.100 or not is life

01:18:02.100 accidental or not is

01:18:04.640 there any way in

01:18:05.420 which we can identify

01:18:07.240 that the symbols and

01:18:08.600 patterns that we see

01:18:10.260 in the world both

01:18:11.460 empirically scientifically

01:18:13.500 and bringing in some

01:18:15.920 of your thought Jordan

01:18:16.700 morally are those

01:18:18.380 ultimately our own

01:18:20.480 creations our own

01:18:22.500 anxious creations in

01:18:23.800 order to try and

01:18:24.640 cope with an

01:18:25.760 existence that is

01:18:27.040 neither here nor

01:18:27.700 there and and

01:18:29.640 therefore just as

01:18:30.420 arbitrary as anything

01:18:31.280 else or are they

01:18:32.320 real and I and I

01:18:33.340 and I know the

01:18:34.580 question of the real

01:18:35.320 is at the one hand

01:18:36.920 the hardest question

01:18:38.040 to answer but on

01:18:39.920 the other hand it's

01:18:40.380 the most important

01:18:40.960 question to answer

01:18:41.660 that's the root

01:18:42.460 question for me with

01:18:43.360 regards to evolutionary

01:18:44.500 theory do I accept

01:18:47.400 the broad contours of

01:18:48.380 it yes St. John

01:18:49.280 Paul the second

01:18:50.000 of a previous pope

01:18:52.540 has it was wrote in

01:18:53.800 support of it's the

01:18:54.800 general idea that life

01:18:55.820 can involve but the

01:18:57.320 root question again is

01:18:58.420 does God exist and did

01:18:59.820 God create the universe

01:19:01.180 how that happened the

01:19:02.500 mechanism by which that

01:19:03.700 took place is an

01:19:04.760 incredibly important

01:19:05.520 question for scientific

01:19:06.620 analysis but it's a

01:19:08.160 secondary question to

01:19:09.180 whether or not God

01:19:10.560 exists and therefore

01:19:11.920 there is meaning purpose

01:19:13.260 order and structure

01:19:14.440 and existence

01:19:14.980 so let maybe we'll I

01:19:21.500 definitely want to ask

01:19:22.400 this question so it's

01:19:27.100 become increasingly

01:19:28.160 difficult for the

01:19:29.300 Catholic Church perhaps

01:19:32.160 in particular in the

01:19:33.240 West to attract young

01:19:34.660 people I don't think

01:19:37.500 that's a statement that

01:19:38.440 anyone would disagree

01:19:39.300 with but people are

01:19:41.700 watching my biblical

01:19:42.700 lectures and lots of

01:19:44.820 them are young and

01:19:45.840 they came to the

01:19:46.620 lectures so why is

01:19:49.600 that exactly what's

01:19:51.340 going on there I mean

01:19:54.040 I don't know how to

01:19:54.800 understand it precisely

01:19:57.660 and I can't work it

01:19:59.400 out in my own mind

01:20:00.420 you're looking at it in

01:20:02.360 some sense from the

01:20:03.160 outside what what's the

01:20:07.440 story there I think part

01:20:10.880 of it's just a

01:20:11.680 sociological cultural

01:20:12.720 question where in the

01:20:13.720 minds of many young

01:20:15.540 people perhaps most

01:20:16.340 people religion is an

01:20:17.440 undifferentiated mass

01:20:18.540 and what religion means

01:20:20.300 is basically what the

01:20:22.540 technical term would be

01:20:23.640 fideism that you believe

01:20:24.720 something that you have

01:20:25.720 no rational reason to

01:20:27.160 believe and you've just

01:20:29.220 embraced it as a matter

01:20:30.540 of kind of a personal

01:20:31.480 mantra but otherwise it's

01:20:32.620 completely irrational I

01:20:33.480 think in most young

01:20:34.200 people's minds that's the

01:20:35.760 case so the general

01:20:37.640 trend we see within

01:20:38.640 Catholicism is more the

01:20:40.200 specific trend we see

01:20:40.980 within Catholicism is more

01:20:41.940 just a general trend of

01:20:43.840 people leaving religion

01:20:45.680 and I think why your

01:20:47.400 work has been so

01:20:48.280 important for those of

01:20:49.200 us who are Catholics is

01:20:52.760 that you are showing

01:20:54.560 that that's not what

01:20:55.820 religion is now we can

01:20:57.640 have very important and

01:20:59.580 timely questions about

01:21:00.540 why the Catholic Church

01:21:01.580 hasn't been doing its

01:21:03.260 duty as it were we're

01:21:04.680 part of the word on fire

01:21:05.620 institute and that's

01:21:06.420 that's precisely what

01:21:07.620 we're seeking to do

01:21:08.640 that's precisely the

01:21:09.940 mission of the word on

01:21:11.280 fire institute but your

01:21:13.880 work has re-established

01:21:15.300 that connection for

01:21:16.360 millions of people who

01:21:18.560 have a false idea one of

01:21:21.160 religion generally but two

01:21:22.580 of Christianity and

01:21:23.720 Catholicism in particular

01:21:24.980 yeah I think that's right

01:21:27.160 so part of your lecture

01:21:28.380 lectures I think are

01:21:29.820 showing a dialogue between

01:21:32.180 faith and reason because

01:21:33.220 obviously you have the

01:21:33.940 you have the scientific

01:21:35.060 background you're a

01:21:35.940 professor of psychology

01:21:36.860 and you know about the

01:21:38.080 empirical science and all

01:21:39.040 kinds of things but you're

01:21:40.320 also taking these questions

01:21:41.200 of faith seriously so for

01:21:43.300 us that is really bread and

01:21:45.040 butter part of the the

01:21:46.560 Catholic tradition so there

01:21:47.580 are definitely are some

01:21:48.580 forms of religion even some

01:21:49.920 forms of Christianity that

01:21:51.580 will want to pit faith

01:21:52.840 against reason as if faith

01:21:54.600 and reason are in an MMA

01:21:56.020 fight and they're you know

01:21:57.560 going at it and they're

01:21:58.500 going to you know choking

01:21:59.880 each other out and well on

01:22:01.900 our view that's not true

01:22:03.160 on our view God is the

01:22:05.280 ultimate source of both

01:22:06.420 faith and reason so John

01:22:08.020 Paul II put it in a very

01:22:09.160 beautiful way he said that

01:22:10.740 faith and reason are two

01:22:12.300 wings that the human

01:22:13.560 person uses to fly up

01:22:14.980 towards the truth and so

01:22:16.500 the idea is that there's a

01:22:17.500 kind of harmony they're

01:22:18.300 different right your left

01:22:19.420 wing's not the same as

01:22:20.240 your right wing these are

01:22:21.000 two different things but

01:22:22.380 they are not set at odds

01:22:24.260 with each other they're in

01:22:25.900 harmony so you see this

01:22:27.200 sort of harmony and

01:22:28.640 figures like Augustine who

01:22:30.020 wants to combine a kind of

01:22:31.220 platonic philosophy with a

01:22:34.040 Christian wisdom and then

01:22:34.960 you find a different kind

01:22:35.740 of synthesis in someone like

01:22:37.540 Thomas Aquinas who wants to

01:22:39.120 combine an Aristotelian

01:22:40.540 philosophy with a Christian

01:22:42.180 wisdom and then you find a

01:22:43.680 similar sort of combining in

01:22:45.780 many other figures in the

01:22:47.040 Christian tradition John

01:22:48.100 Henry Newman John Paul II

01:22:49.240 etc and so I think in a way

01:22:52.040 one way to interpret your

01:22:53.320 work is as another way of

01:22:57.400 bringing together faith and

01:22:58.640 reason in this in this

01:22:59.960 conversation in this dialogue

01:23:01.220 and it's certainly part of

01:23:02.180 the work I try to do as a

01:23:03.640 professor of philosophy I

01:23:05.200 mean some people say oh

01:23:05.820 you're a professor of

01:23:06.500 philosophy you're supposed to

01:23:07.480 be you know how could you be

01:23:08.920 Catholic and I think that

01:23:10.860 question is nonsensical if

01:23:12.860 you understand the Catholic

01:23:13.880 view of faith and reason

01:23:14.740 that faith and reason are not

01:23:16.820 on our view you know opposed

01:23:19.280 they're working together

01:23:20.540 they're in harmony and part of

01:23:23.360 the intellectual adventure I

01:23:24.780 think is is talking about

01:23:26.300 these questions and bringing

01:23:27.160 these two sources into fruitful

01:23:28.800 conversation in a very basic

01:23:31.500 sense faith cannot oppose

01:23:33.680 reason because if God is and

01:23:36.120 God is one then any truth

01:23:39.120 whatever form formulation that

01:23:40.640 truth is taking it cannot be

01:23:42.540 opposed to itself this is a

01:23:43.880 fundamental principle in the

01:23:44.940 thought of St. Thomas Aquinas

01:23:46.380 and so any statement that would

01:23:48.280 be irrational we as Catholics

01:23:50.840 would reject but faith is

01:23:53.180 supra rational and we talked

01:23:55.340 about this early in the

01:23:56.060 conversation right it there's a

01:23:57.640 sense in which there's a

01:23:58.580 there's a there's a invisible but

01:24:00.120 real foundation to reason

01:24:01.340 itself both logic and empirical

01:24:04.300 observation and then there's a

01:24:05.920 destination for where it's

01:24:07.140 headed so in that sense faith is

01:24:08.880 never against reason but it's the

01:24:11.700 condition for the possibility and

01:24:12.760 the purpose of reason so part of it

01:24:16.780 you think is is this demonstration of

01:24:19.520 the coexistence and maybe the

01:24:21.300 necessary coexistence or the optimal

01:24:23.280 coexistence of faith and reason but

01:24:26.060 there's maybe there's another

01:24:27.340 aspect to a couple other aspects

01:24:29.400 and like maybe this might be a

01:24:34.320 consequence of the empirical

01:24:36.460 revolution in human thought is that

01:24:38.380 maybe the modern church has

01:24:40.960 concentrated too much on

01:24:42.780 emphasizing the propositional at the

01:24:46.200 expense of the enacted and I can

01:24:51.120 see that happening a little bit in our

01:24:52.620 conversation you know so I'm trying

01:24:56.480 to find places to stand that are

01:24:58.540 really solid and the idea that we

01:25:01.480 have an instinct to admire and that we

01:25:04.560 can extract out the pattern of what's

01:25:06.900 admirable and that we can then deify

01:25:10.500 that and assume a relationship between

01:25:13.520 that and the ultimate ideal that seems

01:25:15.660 very solid to be I got I don't feel any

01:25:20.920 internal disunity about those

01:25:23.200 propositions that's different or about

01:25:26.280 those suppositions let's say that's

01:25:29.180 different than the claim that you know

01:25:31.220 there was a God who exists outside of

01:25:33.520 time and space and who created the

01:25:34.940 universe that that's more like a set of

01:25:38.640 statements that you need to believe

01:25:41.420 whereas the first set is a set of

01:25:45.660 answers to questions that everybody

01:25:47.980 has you know and and maybe that's see

01:25:52.520 I was trained as a behavioral

01:25:53.840 psychologist I was trained as a

01:25:57.240 cognitive behavioral psychologist but I

01:25:58.780 concentrated more on the behavioral

01:26:00.160 element the how to help people change

01:26:03.660 the way they act and to make that

01:26:06.200 central and I I try to do that in my

01:26:09.320 lectures is like well you know everybody

01:26:11.080 needs to know how to act no one

01:26:13.140 disputes that the audience doesn't

01:26:14.780 dispute that and then figuring out how to

01:26:16.780 act is a great mystery and we all seem

01:26:19.900 to be guided by our conscience and we

01:26:22.440 can't escape that conscience even though

01:26:24.240 we might like to and we all seem to have

01:26:26.420 some sense that some things are good and

01:26:28.900 other things are evil and so what's good

01:26:32.900 and is that what we should pursue and how

01:26:34.880 is that represented and those are all

01:26:37.640 solid questions and there are solid

01:26:39.640 religious answers to them but then there

01:26:42.860 are these more abstract propositions

01:26:45.720 that seem to make that people bounce off

01:26:50.740 them and young people bounce off them

01:26:52.360 because they're more like a set of

01:26:55.340 they're like an insistence about what you

01:26:58.680 must believe propositionally rather than

01:27:02.120 answers to questions about how to walk

01:27:06.020 through life given this the questions

01:27:08.420 about life mysteries that you all have

01:27:10.500 in your head and it's the latter that

01:27:12.860 I'm trying to explore and address in the

01:27:15.500 lectures you know and I think that's

01:27:18.860 partly why people are find them

01:27:22.740 acceptable you know they don't just

01:27:25.020 bounce off them and say well that's

01:27:26.700 religious claptrap I'm done with that

01:27:28.520 you know and reject them the same way

01:27:30.060 they do at least to some degree you know

01:27:33.940 church attendance and I'm always

01:27:39.640 I'm always exploring a mystery with the

01:27:42.280 audience in my lectures you know and

01:27:44.660 I'm not telling them what I believe I

01:27:48.000 don't know even telling them what I

01:27:49.120 believe to be true because I'm always

01:27:50.600 questioning what I believe and the

01:27:55.840 reason I keep insisting on this in this

01:27:57.940 conversation is because it is really is

01:27:59.820 something I'm trying to solve it's like

01:28:01.560 what is the I do believe that we are in

01:28:07.120 danger of making all sorts of things

01:28:08.980 religious that shouldn't be and that

01:28:10.820 that's going to do our culture great

01:28:13.020 damage and that unless we put God back

01:28:16.740 in God's place and Caesar back in

01:28:18.700 Caesar's place things are going to be

01:28:23.000 grim and the church the classical church

01:28:27.400 the Catholic Church has to play a role in

01:28:29.520 that but it I don't see it I don't see a

01:28:35.740 tremendous amount of evidence that that's

01:28:37.380 happening among young people so I'm not

01:28:39.860 saying that with any sense of glee

01:28:41.380 obviously it's it's it's a mystery that

01:28:44.260 needs to be solved and so yeah I think

01:28:49.320 you're right that your lectures focus more

01:28:51.440 on the existential and the practical and

01:28:53.460 how to live this out and I think that's

01:28:56.360 really important and in the Catholic

01:28:57.620 church at least part of what we do is

01:28:59.920 actually offer young people a chance to

01:29:02.680 do that so for instance that every

01:29:04.220 Catholic University at every Catholic

01:29:05.780 parish there's all kinds of outreach

01:29:08.960 programs there's all kinds of ways in

01:29:11.160 which we're trying to live out this

01:29:13.480 Christian message because at the end of

01:29:14.920 the day I think you're right the living

01:29:16.200 it out is so essential and so important

01:29:19.580 on the other hand I think when you're

01:29:21.560 living out something there is at least

01:29:23.860 implicitly some sort of theoretical view

01:29:27.960 that you're living out that is to say if

01:29:30.400 I live out a life of greed right at least

01:29:33.480 implicitly I am saying as it were at least

01:29:37.000 in my actions that I think that money is

01:29:39.620 the most important thing and so in a way

01:29:42.280 the theory I think you're absolutely

01:29:44.420 right just the theory is what I would

01:29:46.140 have called earlier dead faith of course

01:29:47.920 that doesn't help at all we need living

01:29:49.560 faith but I do think that a living faith

01:29:52.000 is not going to live very long unless

01:29:54.120 there is at least some intellectual

01:29:56.520 content to it and the reason for that

01:29:58.220 is that human beings have minds and

01:30:00.460 they ask questions and so if people are

01:30:02.720 asking questions and you know my

01:30:04.100 students in philosophy class ask questions

01:30:05.760 all the time and there's no answer at

01:30:08.040 all then I think that leaves the the

01:30:11.420 practice of faith being kind of unmoored

01:30:14.500 and being kind of shallow so I think

01:30:16.620 you're 100% right like if I could say

01:30:18.200 for my kids would I rather have them

01:30:19.860 have all kinds of theories and all kinds

01:30:22.620 of abstract ideas and be an expert in

01:30:24.660 theology and philosophy but in their

01:30:27.320 real life they don't worship God they

01:30:29.980 don't serve people in need they're a

01:30:32.080 horrible friend etc or the reverse well

01:30:35.140 of course I'd rather have them living a

01:30:36.920 life of charity and the virtues and being

01:30:39.780 a great person even if their intellectual

01:30:41.760 understanding was sort of thin but I do

01:30:44.240 think you know given that people ask

01:30:46.280 questions and people ask other people

01:30:48.480 questions I think if there's no

01:30:49.880 intellectual content what can happen

01:30:51.540 really easily is it it just sort of

01:30:53.180 evaporates right that is to say that

01:30:54.960 you you give up going you give up

01:30:57.080 worship you give up service you give up

01:30:59.560 thinking that people that are different

01:31:01.380 from you deserve fundamental respect you

01:31:03.100 sort of the practices end up going away

01:31:06.440 I think unless there's at least some

01:31:08.160 intellectual substance there and then

01:31:11.860 partly it depends on your person person

01:31:14.080 like who you are so I'm someone who

01:31:16.640 really loves to read books I love to

01:31:18.300 talk about intellectual things so for me

01:31:20.140 that's a big part of my life now there

01:31:22.780 are other people who are great people

01:31:23.980 who you know they don't read books and

01:31:26.160 they don't like talking about issues and

01:31:27.480 fair enough I mean not everyone's not

01:31:29.640 everyone's alike but I do think there

01:31:31.460 are lots of young people that ask

01:31:34.100 intellectual questions right they ask

01:31:36.780 well how do you fit Genesis with

01:31:38.220 evolution and if you just sit there and

01:31:40.480 go I have no idea I just just believe

01:31:42.380 well you could do that but at least for

01:31:44.980 us as Catholics we don't we're not

01:31:47.000 fideous we don't say oh just believe

01:31:48.340 it there's no explanation we try to

01:31:50.720 provide reasonable explanations of

01:31:53.200 things but but I do think I do agree

01:31:55.260 with you at the end of the day living

01:31:57.580 charity is the most important and it's

01:31:59.540 something that St. Paul talked about

01:32:00.920 right if you give your body over to be

01:32:03.000 burned if you have faith to move

01:32:04.320 mountains but you don't have love right

01:32:07.120 it's all worthless and so love at the

01:32:09.360 end of the day is the most important

01:32:11.500 yeah I think I think an important

01:32:13.640 distinction here is is what's necessary

01:32:16.380 and what's most important they're not

01:32:19.080 always the the same thing so what's

01:32:20.960 necessary in order for Catholicism to

01:32:23.460 become Catholicism it must have a set

01:32:25.380 must have dogma or else it's it's it's

01:32:28.360 not anything whatsoever so insofar as

01:32:32.100 the Catholic Church has dogma we have a

01:32:33.920 set of propositions that we believe in

01:32:35.620 many sets of propositions that we believe

01:32:37.420 to be true in every way that something

01:32:39.500 can be true historically metaphorically

01:32:43.860 literally morally all these things we

01:32:46.060 believe to be true so that's necessary

01:32:47.780 but that's necessary for any group it's

01:32:49.980 necessary for any individual in order to

01:32:52.220 have any kind of unified personality so

01:32:54.440 in that sense it's absolutely necessary

01:32:55.740 is it the most important no no but but

01:32:58.280 that again the most important is that

01:33:00.940 these dogmas as Chris has been put it

01:33:02.540 become alive become alive as St. Paul

01:33:05.800 also puts it without without love you

01:33:08.580 are a like a gong that that makes no

01:33:11.780 sound whatsoever and so if one of the

01:33:14.440 critiques that I that has really hit

01:33:16.440 home that you've also made in previous

01:33:18.580 videos is that Catholicism is not calling

01:33:21.400 its people to be heroes that that that

01:33:24.480 sticks with me I think I think that's

01:33:26.140 right and we we have within our faith

01:33:28.240 what's called the doctrine of the saints

01:33:29.600 which in a very basic sense just means

01:33:31.800 that we believe that there are people

01:33:33.660 just like us who have lived in a way that

01:33:37.460 exhibits what it truly means to be a

01:33:39.880 follower of Jesus Christ and if you look

01:33:43.780 at the different kinds of saints what you

01:33:45.800 will find is vastly different kinds of

01:33:48.720 personalities vastly different kinds of

01:33:50.720 interests but two things will also be

01:33:53.120 present one courage and two fidelity to the

01:33:57.860 truth diversity across all other levels

01:34:00.820 but courage and fidelity to the truth so I

01:34:03.460 do think that this is a time for courage

01:34:05.380 and again that's one of the reasons that

01:34:06.840 I was so attracted to your work because of

01:34:09.700 the pushback that it's received pushbacks

01:34:11.360 perhaps the most diplomatic word I could

01:34:12.660 say but and and you remain consistent and

01:34:15.820 I see that that's that's courage and

01:34:18.620 that's a model for us as well

01:34:20.500 so a couple of comments on that so well

01:34:25.920 optimally you want the optimal pattern of

01:34:29.020 action to be part of your personality and

01:34:32.800 then you want the story of your life to be

01:34:36.560 concordant with that pattern of action and

01:34:38.600 then you want the propositions abstracted

01:34:40.800 from that story to be concordant with the

01:34:43.200 story so then you have the intellectual and

01:34:45.940 let's call it the literary and the behavioral

01:34:48.780 existing in harmony with one another and I

01:34:52.380 suppose a fully developed religious system

01:34:54.300 would flesh out all three levels and you

01:34:58.040 see that in in Catholicism you have the

01:35:01.060 patterns of action you have the stories

01:35:03.100 and you have the the the propositions so I

01:35:08.200 I agree with Dr. Kayser that the dogma is

01:35:13.480 crucial and it's partly too because the

01:35:15.860 rational can undermine faith and the

01:35:18.780 you know and we always think as modern

01:35:20.840 people we think well if faith can be

01:35:22.360 undermined by rationality then it should

01:35:24.340 be but as a practicing clinician I see how

01:35:27.160 devastating that is so I had a client for

01:35:29.340 example who was an extraordinarily creative

01:35:31.460 person brilliant person and fundamentally a

01:35:34.300 good person but he had a very very

01:35:37.700 critical rational mind and it was always

01:35:41.360 digging at his roots and as long as he he

01:35:46.580 was an architect and an artist and as long as

01:35:49.560 he was engaged in creative activity he could

01:35:54.420 live but as soon as he started to think his

01:35:58.840 thinking killed him it was so it was so brutal

01:36:04.320 everything was up for grabs everything was

01:36:07.500 questionable you know and you should say well

01:36:10.140 you don't take anything on faith you know it's

01:36:12.280 like well try to live like that and see what

01:36:14.440 happens that that doesn't get at the problem

01:36:16.820 that the untrammeled rational mind can be

01:36:20.240 unbelievably destructive in its ability to go

01:36:24.000 down to the depths and undermine and and destroy

01:36:27.440 and so the the protective structure that a

01:36:35.180 functioning religious system offers is some

01:36:38.400 protection against the against that element of

01:36:42.980 untrammeled rationality and that's also something I

01:36:46.500 think the the rationalist atheist types they just

01:36:49.520 maybe they haven't had enough experience with say

01:36:52.740 seriously depressed people who've been driven to the

01:36:56.400 depths of despair by a mind that just won't stop

01:37:00.640 uprooting and and destroying and and you know that's not

01:37:06.640 only a personal thing in some sense because it's easy for

01:37:11.300 you me anyone to become possessed by these destructive ideas and

01:37:16.880 they're very powerful and once they're part of us we need an

01:37:20.740 answer to them you know and we need an answer to our

01:37:23.900 our nihilistic doubts and what Catholicism offers I

01:37:31.240 wouldn't say uniquely but but definitely is

01:37:34.040 the consequence of thousands of years of effort at

01:37:39.820 keeping that terribly destructive destroyer of necessary faith at bay

01:37:48.980 and that's also a good way to communicate it I think to young people it's

01:37:53.760 like look you're going to be plagued by these existential

01:37:56.480 catastrophic existential doubts

01:37:59.000 what the hell's the point of it anyways and that's particularly the case

01:38:03.940 when things aren't going well and you're suffering and suffering unjustly it's

01:38:07.800 like what are you going to do then well here's here's how people have solved

01:38:12.600 that problem you know it's possible that we're akin to deity in some sense that

01:38:17.540 there's something transcendently important about consciousness that you

01:38:20.540 play a crucial role in the structure of existence

01:38:23.880 it's like no one can say that for certain you know because what the hell do

01:38:29.160 we know but it's the best we've been able to manage

01:38:32.620 in terms of

01:38:34.080 what was it Milton wasn't didn't Milton write paradise laws to justify the way of

01:38:42.420 God the ways of God to man it's a hell of an ambition in some sense that's what

01:38:47.940 this entire religious endeavor does the literary endeavor as well

01:38:51.100 what's the point of all this what's the meaning of this and

01:38:54.480 you know when you think about that in too

01:38:57.220 too propositionally

01:38:59.860 and this I also saw this in my therapy practice it's like well what's the meaning

01:39:04.800 of life and I could easily get off on a nihilistic argument with some of my more

01:39:08.720 intelligent clients they had a rejoinder for every proposition about

01:39:12.600 why life was valuable but then if you said to them

01:39:16.020 don't be so sure that that part of you is your friend look what it's doing to

01:39:22.820 you it's so destructive and it has all of its self-justifying arguments and they

01:39:27.660 might even be coherent but look at the consequences and then contrast that with

01:39:34.000 your own experience like when does that sense of nihilistic despair disappear you

01:39:40.700 know for some people it's when they're with people they love they're with friends or

01:39:43.820 family some people find it in creative activity some people find it in charity

01:39:48.260 there are various sources of meaning and that's not propositional

01:39:54.380 you see it in your own life right you can literally in therapy you have people track

01:39:59.940 that it's like well you're nihilistically depressed let's let's watch your life for

01:40:03.580 a week and see how that ebbs and flows with what you're doing

01:40:06.960 and then see if we can get you participating more in what makes it ebb than what makes it flow

01:40:14.940 and that's empirical in a sense right i'm not asking you to believe something i'm asking you

01:40:20.240 to watch the structure of your own reality to see where meaning manifests itself and then you could say

01:40:25.240 in some sense the sum total of where meaning manifests itself that's where god resides

01:40:33.700 and that relationship with god that you described as as the what would you say as

01:40:42.340 that that has to be maintained by our good behavior

01:40:47.400 i suppose that's that desire to live in that space of meaning

01:40:53.920 and then you can propositionalize that you can say well that's associated with love and it's

01:40:59.920 associated with courage it's associated with these classical virtues and it's not these things that

01:41:04.480 we've learned to deem as evil and that's that's where you is that is it reasonable to say that

01:41:11.860 that's where you find god if you're searching is that the is that an appropriate way of looking at it

01:41:17.320 i think so i i met a guy one time who told me he went to a lecture and the lecture was on god's

01:41:24.940 existence and the guy was lecturing and then after the lecture my friend came up to him and said

01:41:28.640 uh you know everything you say is a bunch of malarkey there's no god it's just your lecture

01:41:34.840 is just meaningless and the guy said okay um what i want you to do is for the next week i want you to

01:41:41.380 treat everyone that you meet as if they were jesus in disguise and the guy left the lecture and he went

01:41:49.560 home and you know he gets home and you know mom's there doing the dishes and he thought to himself

01:41:53.880 well if this were jesus in disguise doing the dishes i'd probably go up and like help my mom do the

01:41:58.040 dishes and then dad came home from work and rather than ignore him he said hey dad how was how was

01:42:02.580 work how's everything going and you know because if that were really jesus in disguise i would do

01:42:06.580 that and then they're eating dinner together with the family and there's one hamburger left and he

01:42:11.560 turns to his brother says hey why don't you have this and the guy told me his life was completely

01:42:16.720 transformed by literally one week of acting in this sort of way and that's not really surprising

01:42:24.300 pope benedict talked about this in one of his encyclicals that one way to god

01:42:28.820 is to act in this sort of way to act as if god exists right right to act as if other people are

01:42:36.300 jesus in disguise and you know mother theresa talked about that too that in for her the poor and the leper

01:42:42.720 and the destitute were all jesus in disguise and so she served them as if they were jesus and so

01:42:51.300 that is one way it seems to me to move towards god i don't think it's the only way though and the

01:42:56.540 reason is that i know a philosopher alistair mcintyre who mentioned to us in class one day

01:43:01.840 that he was an atheist until he carefully studied the arguments for god's existence so there are at

01:43:07.520 least some people at least one person alistair mcintyre who really did come to god through that

01:43:11.380 way but i think the more common way is through lived practice lived action yeah you brought up the

01:43:17.020 the case of severe depression and um you know it is the case of course that you can make

01:43:24.820 profoundly coherent arguments of for why your life is meaningless and why meaning there is just a vast

01:43:33.160 nullity to all existence but the question isn't are they coherent the question is are they true the

01:43:38.460 question is are the premises right because anything can be coherent within false premises the questions are

01:43:44.100 is it the case that your life is worth nothing and the answer has to be no that's a false statement

01:43:49.580 it's a false apprehension of reality well look what happens if you act that out of course but even then

01:43:57.480 you could say well no i'd be doing a sum if within within the grips of depression you'd still be thinking

01:44:02.780 that i am acting according to a good given the premises that i have about the meaninglessness of my

01:44:07.720 own life and of all life so i think the foundation which keeps going back to the same question the

01:44:12.320 foundation of truth must be there but then the next thing to say is not that you are wrong about

01:44:17.160 your life being meaningless as a false statement but that you're also loved you are loved and it's

01:44:24.300 i think that's the kind of thing at least my own experience that can take you out of the darkness that

01:44:29.100 your life is not about you and your own thoughts it's not about you and the systems that you are

01:44:34.280 building ultimately you are in response to something much greater than you and that thing that's

01:44:40.160 greater than you is looking at you and calling you out and saying i love you so it's not it's not an

01:44:45.560 either or it's not well what's true propositionally about the nature of existence and is there a soul

01:44:49.760 it's it is that and i'm calling you which is a universal call for us as catholics

01:44:56.620 this exercise that you described dr kaiser i believe that

01:45:05.160 when we see other people

01:45:09.680 except under very extraordinary circumstances we see

01:45:16.900 an illusion that we project upon them

01:45:21.040 mostly it's a simplifying illusion we don't see the whole person

01:45:25.620 partly i suppose because we we couldn't tolerate the

01:45:29.240 the complete vision it would be too much for us you know so

01:45:34.220 our doors of perception are three quarters closed and

01:45:38.080 exactly why that is isn't obvious but

01:45:40.580 i do believe that the more accurately you perceive a person

01:45:45.340 the more you perceive them in the manner that you described

01:45:50.440 you see this eternal

01:45:53.000 recurring

01:45:55.100 conscious

01:45:56.660 hero

01:45:57.980 striving against the darkness

01:46:00.760 it's

01:46:02.800 and when you treat people like that

01:46:05.940 of course they're

01:46:08.260 but compelled by that

01:46:10.980 it's a compelling way to be interacted with

01:46:14.220 although i don't know what it is is that maybe

01:46:18.680 it's not obvious how much of that you can tolerate

01:46:24.980 which is a very strange thing too

01:46:26.840 you know

01:46:28.160 i'm thinking about this

01:46:30.820 most of what we perceive is our memory

01:46:33.420 and sometimes that

01:46:35.860 is stripped away and we see what's there

01:46:38.360 but seeing what's there

01:46:39.740 is awe

01:46:40.820 awe inspiring

01:46:42.180 it's it's it's gripping and

01:46:45.340 and it instills terror

01:46:46.840 and i think that's the same as the burning bush

01:46:49.740 and in some sense everything is a burning bush

01:46:52.660 but

01:46:53.700 you're blinded to it

01:46:58.680 the

01:47:03.300 you you see what's there

01:47:07.940 i think when you really love someone

01:47:10.160 a child

01:47:11.260 you really see that in a child

01:47:13.420 if you if you're a parent

01:47:14.600 right

01:47:15.680 you see

01:47:16.640 you don't see a generic baby

01:47:18.700 you see

01:47:19.280 that actual person

01:47:21.520 so that

01:47:22.980 memory that

01:47:24.100 pushes generic baby

01:47:26.820 into your field of vision

01:47:28.060 dissipates

01:47:28.780 and you see what's actually there

01:47:30.240 and that love drives that

01:47:31.740 i imagine it does that

01:47:34.560 it

01:47:36.060 love seems to

01:47:37.320 like i always thought when people fall in love with one another

01:47:40.560 they see the perfection that could conceivably exist

01:47:43.560 it's like the curtains of

01:47:45.020 of illusion

01:47:46.260 pull apart momentarily

01:47:48.780 and

01:47:49.060 you see the

01:47:50.040 paradisal state that could be there hypothetically

01:47:53.120 if everything was done properly

01:47:54.840 and that drives the love

01:47:57.040 and then maybe if you work across time

01:47:59.500 you can achieve that to some degree

01:48:01.180 you know because other

01:48:02.580 people think about themselves as deluded when they're in love

01:48:05.640 and that's a very cynical way of looking at it

01:48:08.520 it certainly doesn't apply

01:48:10.460 to the love between a parent and a child

01:48:13.500 yeah i think i think you're right

01:48:17.900 i mean i know in my own life

01:48:19.220 having children has been such a unbelievably enriching experience

01:48:23.920 and i think about

01:48:25.700 you know especially when kids are little and they're asleep

01:48:29.840 you go in there and they're just sleeping

01:48:32.140 and you see their little chest moving up and down

01:48:34.020 there's something painfully beautiful about that

01:48:37.140 i mean you just wish it could go on

01:48:39.320 just indefinitely

01:48:40.900 and

01:48:42.020 for me that is

01:48:44.320 something

01:48:45.120 that taught me something about

01:48:46.380 about god's love

01:48:47.700 right if god really is

01:48:49.480 god the father

01:48:51.140 well then

01:48:52.600 you know we

01:48:53.560 that's sort of how he looks at us

01:48:55.060 and he sees

01:48:55.580 the good

01:48:56.420 he sees

01:48:57.660 the effort

01:48:58.520 and

01:48:59.140 of course there's imperfections too

01:49:00.980 but i don't know

01:49:02.200 for me

01:49:02.780 having children is a kind of

01:49:05.460 i try to sometimes tell my students

01:49:08.060 most of whom don't have kids

01:49:10.220 what it's like

01:49:11.420 and

01:49:12.100 it's very hard to describe

01:49:13.240 so the best way i came up with was

01:49:14.860 well remember when you were a little child

01:49:16.580 you know you're like six

01:49:17.500 and

01:49:18.380 you thought

01:49:19.120 oh boys have cooties

01:49:21.360 girls have cooties

01:49:22.140 and the idea of romance or kissing someone is just repulsive

01:49:24.620 and then

01:49:25.540 you know

01:49:26.040 you could imagine trying to explain to a six-year-old

01:49:28.000 look

01:49:28.240 at some point you're going to look at someone else

01:49:29.960 and just find this person unbelievably captivating

01:49:32.480 and you're going to want to kiss them

01:49:33.860 and you can say the words

01:49:35.080 but a little kid's been like

01:49:36.020 oh

01:49:36.240 no way

01:49:37.060 that's hard to describe

01:49:38.840 and

01:49:39.080 and i think

01:49:40.120 becoming a parent is similar to that

01:49:41.900 in that

01:49:42.300 yeah

01:49:43.460 it seems to me

01:49:44.260 that it is so

01:49:45.860 enriching

01:49:47.440 that

01:49:48.360 and has given so much

01:49:49.960 at least to my life

01:49:50.860 and including

01:49:51.540 calling out something from me

01:49:52.820 that would have never been elicited

01:49:54.180 because there's kind of sacrifices

01:49:55.800 that you'll do for a kid

01:49:56.780 that you'll never do for

01:49:57.700 you know an adult

01:49:58.620 so that that's interesting

01:50:00.580 that ties in with

01:50:02.320 this

01:50:02.880 this idea

01:50:03.620 that you brought forward

01:50:04.840 of treating everybody

01:50:05.700 as if they were

01:50:06.540 manifestation of christ

01:50:08.160 you see that

01:50:10.700 meaningful fragility

01:50:13.480 in your children

01:50:14.660 and it's beautiful

01:50:16.160 and

01:50:17.220 maybe if you're

01:50:18.740 if you've been warped and hurt

01:50:20.660 you get resentful about it

01:50:22.160 and

01:50:22.360 jealous of it

01:50:23.740 and that can lead to all sorts of terrible things

01:50:26.100 but to the degree that you can

01:50:28.000 that you're privileged to see that

01:50:30.440 that calls you to be a better person

01:50:34.680 and you can think of that

01:50:36.740 you know

01:50:37.560 biologically

01:50:39.280 well

01:50:39.800 you have these fragile

01:50:42.060 creatures

01:50:43.020 that you're responsible for

01:50:45.700 of course that's going to call you

01:50:48.420 to a higher mode of

01:50:49.660 action

01:50:50.500 because otherwise

01:50:51.220 they're not going to live

01:50:52.560 you know

01:50:52.920 so it's

01:50:53.380 it's very practical

01:50:54.680 but

01:50:55.500 so then

01:50:57.620 but what you see there is

01:50:59.120 if that

01:50:59.420 if you view someone

01:51:01.080 with love

01:51:01.880 then

01:51:03.400 it's incumbent

01:51:04.740 upon you

01:51:05.940 to treat them

01:51:07.080 as if they're valuable

01:51:08.060 and then

01:51:09.420 the more you treat other people

01:51:11.200 as if they're valuable

01:51:12.320 the better person you are

01:51:14.460 that just comes along

01:51:15.520 for the ride

01:51:16.100 in some sense

01:51:16.880 so none of that seems

01:51:18.360 questionable

01:51:19.280 to me

01:51:19.820 that

01:51:20.040 that seems solid

01:51:21.100 and so then maybe

01:51:22.600 the more love

01:51:23.600 you view other people with

01:51:25.120 the higher the moral demand

01:51:27.740 that's placed on you

01:51:28.920 and then I would say too

01:51:29.900 well then

01:51:30.260 that's another reason why

01:51:32.840 it's so important

01:51:34.960 to be truthful

01:51:35.760 and

01:51:36.140 and in some sense

01:51:37.280 to be good

01:51:37.880 because

01:51:38.220 it isn't obvious to me

01:51:39.780 that you can withstand

01:51:40.780 that moral load

01:51:42.260 if you're

01:51:44.220 compromised

01:51:45.720 by

01:51:46.420 too much sin

01:51:47.960 it's too much

01:51:50.540 and that's another thing

01:51:53.260 that we're not very good

01:51:54.300 at teaching young people about

01:51:55.600 you know

01:51:55.880 you shouldn't do that

01:51:57.160 you know

01:51:58.060 it's like

01:51:58.640 there's a

01:52:01.440 sanctimonious authority

01:52:03.280 that goes along with that

01:52:04.500 that's the wrong tone

01:52:05.620 it's more like

01:52:06.820 you know

01:52:14.620 I don't know how you

01:52:16.140 lay it out properly

01:52:17.380 but

01:52:17.720 you tell people

01:52:19.120 that you love

01:52:19.860 how to avoid

01:52:21.660 the road to hell

01:52:22.700 and you don't do that

01:52:24.980 because you're shaking

01:52:25.800 your finger at them

01:52:27.120 or because you're

01:52:28.340 a moral authority

01:52:30.180 you do it because

01:52:32.900 you don't want them

01:52:33.720 to burn

01:52:34.300 and

01:52:37.560 I think there's too much

01:52:40.680 of the moral authority

01:52:41.900 still in the church

01:52:43.020 and not enough

01:52:43.700 of the

01:52:44.140 you know

01:52:45.980 the love

01:52:46.480 that

01:52:46.780 helps people

01:52:48.720 avoid

01:52:49.200 the fire

01:52:50.680 I think

01:52:55.160 what you just

01:52:55.680 beautifully described

01:52:56.480 is the unity

01:52:57.400 of the love commandment

01:52:58.520 that you

01:52:58.920 you love your

01:52:59.880 you love God

01:53:00.560 with all your heart

01:53:01.180 and all your soul

01:53:01.700 and all your mind

01:53:02.220 and you love your neighbor

01:53:02.980 as yourself

01:53:03.580 the love

01:53:04.980 the love of God

01:53:05.840 identifies the pattern

01:53:07.480 and then the interplay

01:53:08.640 between the love

01:53:09.620 of the neighbor

01:53:10.140 and the love

01:53:10.640 of the self

01:53:11.100 they're

01:53:11.600 they're

01:53:12.800 differentiated

01:53:13.500 but inextricably

01:53:14.420 intertwined

01:53:15.660 and so

01:53:16.580 to love the neighbor

01:53:17.780 is to see the neighbor

01:53:18.880 as he or she

01:53:19.820 actually is

01:53:21.140 and to respond

01:53:22.260 to the actuality

01:53:23.260 not to your desires

01:53:24.180 not to what you want

01:53:25.880 this person to be

01:53:26.940 in a utilitarian

01:53:27.940 instrumental sense

01:53:28.840 but to the reality

01:53:29.620 of that eternal soul

01:53:30.980 right there

01:53:31.540 and in and through that

01:53:33.200 then you see

01:53:33.940 who you are

01:53:34.840 and that's a commentary

01:53:37.080 on the Ten Commandments

01:53:38.440 right

01:53:38.720 that's Christ's summation

01:53:39.940 of the Ten Commandments

01:53:40.980 so that's another

01:53:41.740 another

01:53:43.840 illustration

01:53:44.940 of that abstraction

01:53:46.120 proper behavior

01:53:47.900 the story

01:53:48.780 on top of that

01:53:49.580 the propositions

01:53:50.900 that would be

01:53:51.440 the Ten Commandments

01:53:52.340 let's say

01:53:52.800 so then Christ

01:53:53.520 is challenged

01:53:54.260 on the Ten Commandments

01:53:55.460 something like

01:53:56.100 rank order these

01:53:58.240 if you're so wise

01:53:59.500 right

01:54:00.560 exactly

01:54:01.860 because you're going

01:54:02.880 to say something

01:54:03.600 heretical

01:54:04.180 and Christ

01:54:05.720 does this

01:54:06.220 unbelievable

01:54:06.900 slight of mind

01:54:08.220 and extracts out

01:54:11.420 two superordinate

01:54:12.940 principles

01:54:13.620 and it's done

01:54:16.000 in such a compelling

01:54:16.780 way that the

01:54:17.600 interlocutor

01:54:18.240 who's basically

01:54:18.940 a prosecutorial mind

01:54:20.540 like an inquisitionist

01:54:23.180 in some sense

01:54:24.000 is reduced to silence

01:54:25.920 that's a very

01:54:28.820 powerful story

01:54:29.680 it's one of those

01:54:30.220 stories you read

01:54:30.860 that you think

01:54:31.500 it's not obvious

01:54:33.260 how someone could

01:54:34.160 have made that up

01:54:35.080 there's a lot

01:54:37.060 of genius

01:54:37.780 there's an immense

01:54:39.860 well of moral

01:54:41.240 genius in that

01:54:42.160 story

01:54:42.560 and

01:54:43.200 the idea

01:54:45.240 that that's

01:54:45.780 some sort

01:54:46.220 of casual

01:54:47.100 false

01:54:48.360 construct

01:54:49.140 you know

01:54:51.080 produced

01:54:51.640 for the purposes

01:54:53.320 of power

01:54:54.080 it's like

01:54:55.080 well you try

01:54:55.560 to write a story

01:54:56.360 that short

01:54:57.080 that is that wise

01:54:59.060 see how far

01:55:00.080 you get with it

01:55:00.920 so

01:55:02.200 yeah

01:55:04.100 those

01:55:04.420 those stories

01:55:05.100 are all over

01:55:05.760 the gospels

01:55:06.400 I mean think

01:55:06.860 about the story

01:55:07.480 where the

01:55:08.660 woman is caught

01:55:09.820 in adultery

01:55:10.520 and they say

01:55:12.240 to Jesus

01:55:12.640 well you know

01:55:13.500 the law says

01:55:14.280 we should stone

01:55:15.180 her to death

01:55:15.680 you know

01:55:16.020 what do you say

01:55:16.640 and they're trying

01:55:17.740 to trap him

01:55:18.220 of course

01:55:18.600 because if he says

01:55:19.180 well don't stone

01:55:19.860 her to death

01:55:20.400 then they say

01:55:21.200 well you're

01:55:21.560 against Moses

01:55:22.220 huh

01:55:22.460 you're a religious

01:55:23.120 heretic

01:55:23.720 and then if he says

01:55:24.860 go ahead

01:55:25.580 and throw the stones

01:55:26.260 then he's going

01:55:26.820 against his

01:55:27.340 message of mercy

01:55:28.060 but Jesus of course

01:55:29.480 says very famously

01:55:30.640 let whoever

01:55:32.100 has the first sin

01:55:33.600 cast the first

01:55:35.040 whoever has no sin

01:55:36.540 cast the first stone

01:55:37.580 and you know

01:55:38.840 everyone has to drop

01:55:39.740 their stones

01:55:40.200 and go away

01:55:40.800 and then he says

01:55:41.780 to her of course

01:55:42.540 go and sin no more

01:55:44.760 so that

01:55:45.900 that kind of story

01:55:46.700 you think

01:55:47.140 yeah you'd have to

01:55:48.940 have quite an imagination

01:55:50.240 be a kind of

01:55:51.800 literary genius

01:55:52.520 to come up with this

01:55:53.380 and I think it's important

01:55:54.480 in part because

01:55:55.600 Christ combines both

01:55:57.660 right

01:55:58.420 that is to say

01:55:58.860 we have the command

01:55:59.820 and the commandment

01:56:01.760 say not to commit

01:56:03.260 adultery

01:56:03.680 is there for a reason

01:56:04.660 I'm sure you know

01:56:05.800 from your clinical

01:56:06.360 practice that

01:56:07.220 you know that can

01:56:07.800 cause unbelievable

01:56:08.680 problems

01:56:09.760 you know for couples

01:56:10.840 and families

01:56:11.340 but he also has

01:56:12.900 the mercy

01:56:13.320 so Jesus combines

01:56:14.960 the high commands

01:56:16.760 of justice

01:56:17.300 and with this

01:56:18.780 high mercy

01:56:19.460 and in a way

01:56:20.860 that's what the church

01:56:21.500 is seeking to do

01:56:22.420 now always imperfectly

01:56:23.640 because we're imperfect

01:56:24.320 but both need

01:56:25.680 to be there

01:56:26.120 there needs to be

01:56:26.980 the moral

01:56:28.680 the high moral

01:56:30.760 calling

01:56:31.380 but also

01:56:32.320 the great mercy

01:56:34.120 both

01:56:34.660 because I think

01:56:35.380 one without the other

01:56:36.460 is going to be

01:56:37.260 unbalanced

01:56:38.580 and the high moral

01:56:40.880 calling again

01:56:41.600 is for our own

01:56:43.460 good

01:56:44.000 the law

01:56:44.860 is a form of grace

01:56:46.160 this

01:56:47.060 this is how

01:56:47.920 we flourish

01:56:48.620 this is how

01:56:49.440 we become

01:56:50.740 happy

01:56:51.380 now of course

01:56:52.820 we fail

01:56:53.320 which brings in

01:56:54.540 the mercy component

01:56:55.580 but that's another

01:56:56.280 terrible

01:56:57.160 misconstrual

01:56:58.420 of religion

01:56:59.200 broadly

01:56:59.580 and specifically

01:57:00.360 Christianity

01:57:01.040 and Catholicism

01:57:01.880 is that somehow

01:57:02.460 these rules

01:57:03.160 were premised

01:57:04.560 on control

01:57:06.400 or power

01:57:07.140 as their motivating

01:57:08.340 reason for coming

01:57:09.420 into existence

01:57:09.940 it's the exact

01:57:11.340 opposite

01:57:11.840 it's to liberate

01:57:13.560 it's to liberate

01:57:14.400 us from ourselves

01:57:15.640 I guess it's the other

01:57:18.040 thing that

01:57:18.620 seems to have worked

01:57:20.020 in my lectures

01:57:20.780 is like a lot

01:57:21.700 of this

01:57:22.160 a lot of the work

01:57:25.280 I've done

01:57:25.680 was motivated

01:57:26.340 by my attempts

01:57:27.260 I suppose

01:57:28.000 to understand

01:57:28.780 hell

01:57:29.340 and then more

01:57:31.140 than that

01:57:31.680 it's like

01:57:32.020 how is it

01:57:33.640 that you become

01:57:34.260 an active

01:57:35.040 contributor

01:57:36.120 to hell

01:57:36.980 and you might say

01:57:38.640 well hell

01:57:39.040 isn't real

01:57:39.780 well and I would

01:57:41.480 say then

01:57:41.940 well

01:57:42.220 you haven't

01:57:43.280 looked enough

01:57:44.000 if you think

01:57:45.320 that's true

01:57:46.000 you're fortunate

01:57:47.460 enough so that

01:57:48.240 you can believe

01:57:48.880 that's not true

01:57:49.860 it's like

01:57:50.860 you know nothing

01:57:51.800 about history

01:57:52.520 and you've been

01:57:53.740 unbelievably sheltered

01:57:55.340 in your own life

01:57:56.120 if you don't believe

01:57:56.960 that hell is real

01:57:57.920 and you know

01:57:59.540 maybe

01:58:00.800 only someone cruel

01:58:02.840 would wish

01:58:03.360 that that ignorance

01:58:04.160 be stripped away

01:58:05.000 from you

01:58:05.540 but if you study

01:58:07.080 history

01:58:07.580 as a perpetrator

01:58:09.220 well then

01:58:11.560 if you study

01:58:13.400 history

01:58:13.920 you believe

01:58:15.480 in hell

01:58:15.900 and if you study

01:58:16.740 history as a

01:58:17.620 perpetrator

01:58:18.220 then you see

01:58:18.960 how your own

01:58:19.820 inequity

01:58:20.680 contributes to that

01:58:21.900 and then it's

01:58:23.280 not unreasonable

01:58:24.200 to say

01:58:24.760 well if you love

01:58:25.440 people

01:58:25.840 you would try

01:58:26.520 to guide them

01:58:27.080 away from that

01:58:27.900 and

01:58:28.120 when I did

01:58:30.960 my maps of meaning

01:58:31.740 lectures at the

01:58:32.580 university

01:58:33.000 and in public

01:58:33.760 that's always

01:58:34.840 in the back

01:58:35.340 of my mind

01:58:36.000 it's

01:58:36.520 well look at

01:58:37.560 what happened

01:58:38.040 in Germany

01:58:38.600 look at what

01:58:39.540 happened in

01:58:39.960 the Soviet Union

01:58:40.800 look at what

01:58:41.800 happened in China

01:58:42.640 and

01:58:43.020 how do you act

01:58:45.360 so that that

01:58:46.040 happens

01:58:46.600 well I

01:58:47.180 I wouldn't

01:58:47.800 make that

01:58:48.240 happen

01:58:48.580 it's like

01:58:49.000 if you say

01:58:50.280 that then

01:58:50.820 you would

01:58:51.380 because you

01:58:53.200 don't know

01:58:53.640 enough

01:58:54.120 you'd

01:58:54.800 because if

01:58:55.500 you do

01:58:55.880 you'd say

01:58:56.340 yes I

01:58:56.780 could contribute

01:58:57.420 to that

01:58:57.820 and I

01:58:58.040 probably

01:58:58.440 am

01:58:58.800 and I

01:58:59.180 should be

01:58:59.540 terrified

01:58:59.840 enough

01:59:00.200 to stop

01:59:00.820 if I

01:59:01.160 only knew

01:59:01.880 how

01:59:02.220 and then

01:59:02.640 these

01:59:04.460 guidelines

01:59:05.060 to love

01:59:05.720 and to

01:59:06.020 tell the

01:59:06.400 truth

01:59:06.660 they are

01:59:07.120 in fact

01:59:07.640 protection

01:59:09.000 against

01:59:09.480 exactly

01:59:09.980 that kind

01:59:10.500 of

01:59:10.620 catastrophe

01:59:11.240 yeah

01:59:13.420 and I

01:59:13.700 think it's

01:59:14.060 true

01:59:14.360 not only

01:59:15.140 in those

01:59:15.520 very dramatic

01:59:16.420 examples of

01:59:17.320 hell like

01:59:17.640 the gulag

01:59:18.240 but I

01:59:18.900 think it's

01:59:19.120 true in

01:59:19.580 a really

01:59:19.880 everyday

01:59:20.200 sense

01:59:20.640 I mean

01:59:21.080 hell can

01:59:22.700 start here

01:59:23.220 on earth

01:59:23.700 in a very

01:59:24.920 everyday

01:59:25.560 sort of

01:59:25.940 way

01:59:26.180 so I

01:59:26.560 think of

01:59:26.880 somebody

01:59:27.200 actually

01:59:28.300 that I

01:59:28.640 know

01:59:28.840 on my

01:59:29.140 block

01:59:29.480 and this

01:59:29.800 person

01:59:30.060 is

01:59:30.240 incredibly

01:59:31.120 angry

01:59:32.820 at everyone

01:59:33.420 even people

01:59:33.860 that try

01:59:34.160 to help

01:59:34.400 this person

01:59:34.800 she's

01:59:35.380 always angry

01:59:35.920 at them

01:59:36.280 and she's

01:59:36.700 filled

01:59:37.180 with hatred

01:59:37.760 and bitterness

01:59:38.300 and everything's

01:59:39.460 bad

01:59:39.880 and so

01:59:41.320 for this

01:59:41.680 person

01:59:42.000 I would

01:59:42.460 say

01:59:42.760 she is

01:59:43.940 already

01:59:44.280 living in

01:59:45.440 hell

01:59:45.660 the beginning

01:59:46.320 of hell

01:59:46.680 at least

01:59:47.000 here on

01:59:47.340 earth

01:59:47.540 I mean

01:59:47.820 her life

01:59:48.340 as far

01:59:48.640 as I

01:59:48.800 can tell

01:59:49.020 is just

01:59:49.440 really

01:59:50.080 hellish

01:59:51.280 in every

01:59:51.720 respect

01:59:52.060 and then

01:59:52.560 people in

01:59:52.960 contact

01:59:53.220 with her

01:59:53.500 she makes

01:59:53.880 their life

01:59:54.320 hellish

01:59:54.660 very often

01:59:55.180 and the

01:59:56.200 reverse is

01:59:56.640 true too

01:59:57.060 there can

01:59:57.440 be people

01:59:57.740 here and

01:59:58.060 now

01:59:58.220 who are

01:59:58.540 already

01:59:58.940 living in

01:59:59.860 the beginnings

02:00:00.320 of heaven

02:00:00.860 they're

02:00:01.300 filled

02:00:01.500 with love

02:00:01.880 for God

02:00:02.320 they're

02:00:02.520 filled

02:00:02.640 with love

02:00:02.940 for other

02:00:03.240 people

02:00:03.620 they love

02:00:04.380 themselves

02:00:04.920 they're

02:00:06.460 living this

02:00:07.120 heavenly life

02:00:07.820 because at

02:00:08.260 the end

02:00:08.420 of the

02:00:08.600 day

02:00:08.780 at least

02:00:09.040 on the

02:00:09.760 Catholic

02:00:10.020 view

02:00:10.320 what is

02:00:11.440 heaven

02:00:11.760 well what

02:00:12.560 heaven

02:00:12.760 is

02:00:13.000 is perfect

02:00:13.680 love of

02:00:14.680 God

02:00:14.960 perfect love

02:00:15.720 of other

02:00:16.000 people

02:00:16.260 perfect love

02:00:16.940 of yourself

02:00:17.440 and what

02:00:18.480 is hell

02:00:18.800 what's the

02:00:19.200 opposite of

02:00:19.600 it's a

02:00:20.000 lack of

02:00:20.400 all that

02:00:20.820 right

02:00:21.500 it's lacking

02:00:22.060 love of

02:00:22.420 God

02:00:22.640 lacking

02:00:23.040 love for

02:00:23.400 other

02:00:23.560 people

02:00:23.780 lacking

02:00:24.120 love

02:00:24.400 for

02:00:24.540 yourself

02:00:24.940 it's

02:00:25.600 being

02:00:25.740 filled

02:00:25.940 with

02:00:26.120 hatred

02:00:26.420 so

02:00:27.300 heaven

02:00:27.960 and hell

02:00:28.660 I would

02:00:29.140 say

02:00:29.420 really

02:00:29.940 begin

02:00:30.340 right now

02:00:30.940 and

02:00:32.040 in the

02:00:32.880 life to

02:00:33.180 come

02:00:33.500 I'd say

02:00:34.480 they're

02:00:34.680 intensified

02:00:35.240 they're

02:00:35.600 deepened

02:00:36.020 so

02:00:36.600 and this

02:00:36.900 is the

02:00:37.300 vision of

02:00:37.640 Dante

02:00:37.900 right

02:00:38.200 that

02:00:38.440 you know

02:00:39.740 heaven

02:00:40.080 or hell

02:00:40.500 is something

02:00:41.080 that all

02:00:42.380 of its

02:00:42.620 punishments

02:00:43.040 are meant

02:00:43.280 to show

02:00:43.620 that the

02:00:44.620 sin is

02:00:45.740 its own

02:00:46.080 punishment

02:00:46.460 in some

02:00:46.880 respect

02:00:47.360 right

02:00:47.940 all the

02:00:48.420 punishments

02:00:49.160 that say

02:00:49.640 that people

02:00:50.260 in hell

02:00:50.580 experience

02:00:51.060 are all

02:00:51.620 a natural

02:00:52.540 outgrowth

02:00:53.040 of their

02:00:53.460 own

02:00:53.820 bad

02:00:55.060 behavior

02:00:55.360 here

02:00:55.540 below

02:00:55.880 and we

02:00:56.860 can see

02:00:57.140 this in

02:00:57.620 everyday

02:00:57.900 life with

02:00:58.420 for instance

02:00:59.000 people that

02:00:59.620 you know

02:01:01.180 end up

02:01:02.020 destroying

02:01:02.580 their

02:01:02.820 relationships

02:01:03.420 destroying

02:01:03.920 their families

02:01:04.520 and they

02:01:04.860 end up

02:01:05.180 isolated

02:01:05.720 alone

02:01:06.100 and again

02:01:06.880 living this

02:01:07.220 sort of

02:01:07.460 hellish

02:01:07.700 existence

02:01:08.120 but unfortunately

02:01:08.900 in those

02:01:09.600 cases

02:01:09.880 they are

02:01:10.500 as it were

02:01:11.260 their own

02:01:11.620 worst enemy

02:01:12.160 I think that

02:01:13.420 connects back

02:01:13.940 to your

02:01:14.500 insights

02:01:15.120 into

02:01:15.420 morality

02:01:16.340 as well

02:01:16.960 and that

02:01:17.460 it is

02:01:18.900 remarkable

02:01:19.420 just in

02:01:21.140 a cultural

02:01:21.700 sense

02:01:22.140 that your

02:01:22.860 work

02:01:23.360 which has

02:01:24.180 rules

02:01:24.560 in the

02:01:24.900 title

02:01:25.180 12 of

02:01:25.940 them

02:01:26.420 right

02:01:26.680 two books

02:01:27.360 has garnered

02:01:28.720 the audience

02:01:29.320 there's

02:01:29.820 obviously

02:01:30.200 a

02:01:30.600 that it

02:01:31.180 has

02:01:31.380 there's

02:01:31.560 obviously

02:01:31.880 a profound

02:01:32.500 hunger

02:01:33.060 cross-culturally

02:01:34.000 cross-linguistically

02:01:37.100 for what you

02:01:38.640 are saying

02:01:39.180 and what you

02:01:39.740 are saying

02:01:40.120 is about

02:01:40.540 the necessity

02:01:41.100 of rules

02:01:43.000 I think

02:01:43.660 what we

02:01:44.060 have here

02:01:44.520 is we

02:01:44.780 now have

02:01:45.460 a couple

02:01:45.960 generations

02:01:46.540 that have

02:01:47.300 been liberated

02:01:47.920 from rules

02:01:48.660 and we

02:01:50.500 get to see

02:01:51.060 what that

02:01:51.420 actually looks

02:01:52.120 like in

02:01:52.720 practice

02:01:53.260 and it's

02:01:54.260 not just

02:01:54.920 the possibility

02:01:56.460 of these

02:01:57.280 external forms

02:01:58.140 of hell

02:01:58.420 it absolutely

02:01:58.840 is that

02:01:59.120 but the

02:01:59.460 internal forms

02:02:00.240 of hell

02:02:00.540 as well

02:02:01.060 depression

02:02:01.900 and anxiety

02:02:03.020 I can't

02:02:03.700 think of

02:02:03.960 any greater

02:02:04.460 hell

02:02:04.900 than being

02:02:05.980 in the

02:02:06.180 grips of

02:02:06.640 severe

02:02:07.640 depression

02:02:08.080 and severe

02:02:08.700 anxiety

02:02:09.240 and the

02:02:09.520 worst thing

02:02:10.040 that you

02:02:10.280 can tell

02:02:10.620 somebody

02:02:11.060 in that

02:02:12.160 position

02:02:12.560 is do

02:02:13.600 whatever

02:02:14.200 you want

02:02:14.940 and invent

02:02:15.660 anything

02:02:16.360 according to

02:02:17.060 your own

02:02:17.520 fancy

02:02:18.020 it's poison

02:02:20.800 so the

02:02:23.160 fact that

02:02:23.600 there are

02:02:24.200 rules

02:02:24.720 and that

02:02:25.100 these rules

02:02:25.500 correspond with

02:02:26.440 reality

02:02:26.940 and therefore

02:02:27.520 are good

02:02:28.300 and for

02:02:28.800 our

02:02:29.100 happiness

02:02:29.600 I think

02:02:31.000 just speaks

02:02:31.540 again to

02:02:32.420 not only the

02:02:32.940 necessity

02:02:33.360 of the

02:02:33.740 rules

02:02:34.000 but the

02:02:35.100 fact that

02:02:35.680 we are

02:02:36.580 all called

02:02:37.220 to something

02:02:37.760 greater

02:02:38.100 and when we

02:02:38.780 stop that

02:02:39.440 call

02:02:39.840 hell

02:02:40.640 begins to

02:02:41.840 take over

02:02:42.340 soul by

02:02:43.080 soul

02:02:43.380 gather

02:02:45.380 directions

02:02:46.160 if you're

02:02:47.420 lost and

02:02:48.060 you're trying

02:02:48.360 to get

02:02:48.640 somewhere

02:02:49.020 and someone

02:02:49.440 provides you

02:02:50.000 with directions

02:02:50.560 you have to

02:02:51.100 turn right

02:02:51.580 at a certain

02:02:52.080 point and

02:02:52.600 left at a

02:02:53.120 certain point

02:02:53.620 and you

02:02:53.880 don't say

02:02:54.320 well to

02:02:55.740 hell with

02:02:56.160 these rules

02:02:56.800 you say

02:02:58.540 thank god

02:02:59.200 for these

02:02:59.580 rules

02:02:59.900 because you

02:03:00.640 know I'll

02:03:01.160 wander off

02:03:01.640 the path

02:03:02.140 and then

02:03:02.640 where will

02:03:03.040 I end up

02:03:03.660 at the

02:03:04.200 least lost

02:03:05.000 and so

02:03:06.660 yeah it's

02:03:08.040 all right

02:03:09.580 so I want to

02:03:10.160 close with one

02:03:10.780 more question

02:03:11.320 if that's okay

02:03:11.980 unless you guys

02:03:12.720 have something

02:03:13.100 else you want

02:03:13.600 to talk about

02:03:14.500 what are you

02:03:16.700 doing right

02:03:17.200 at fire

02:03:17.700 what's working

02:03:19.480 at word on

02:03:22.520 fire

02:03:22.740 yeah

02:03:23.540 what's working

02:03:26.100 what's working

02:03:27.760 I think

02:03:28.340 a lot of

02:03:30.460 it I would

02:03:30.920 say it

02:03:31.580 sort of

02:03:31.900 follows the

02:03:32.300 contours

02:03:32.880 of the

02:03:33.920 conversation

02:03:34.500 that we've

02:03:34.980 had

02:03:35.220 the rules

02:03:37.180 are there

02:03:37.580 the dogmatic

02:03:38.280 clarity

02:03:38.780 is there

02:03:39.620 the arguments

02:03:40.340 are there

02:03:41.680 the propositions

02:03:43.920 and the

02:03:44.400 defense of

02:03:44.900 those propositions

02:03:45.660 is all there

02:03:46.300 so there's

02:03:46.720 sort of a

02:03:47.200 apologetic

02:03:48.320 foundation

02:03:48.860 to it

02:03:49.540 so it's

02:03:50.140 necessary

02:03:50.600 but again

02:03:51.700 not the

02:03:52.320 most important

02:03:52.900 one of word

02:03:53.440 on fire's

02:03:54.660 ways of

02:03:56.700 describing

02:03:57.200 the work

02:03:57.580 that it

02:03:57.820 does

02:03:58.040 is

02:03:58.400 acting at

02:03:59.580 the intersection

02:04:00.140 of faith

02:04:00.880 and culture

02:04:01.480 and leading

02:04:02.020 with beauty

02:04:02.920 so again

02:04:04.880 there's theological

02:04:05.480 freeze in this

02:04:06.000 if God

02:04:06.520 exists

02:04:06.960 then God

02:04:07.980 is the unity

02:04:08.500 of all

02:04:08.920 that is

02:04:09.200 good

02:04:09.500 all that

02:04:09.920 is true

02:04:10.200 and all

02:04:10.440 that is

02:04:10.640 beautiful

02:04:10.980 and these

02:04:11.980 aren't

02:04:12.280 mutually

02:04:12.680 exclusive

02:04:13.300 you don't

02:04:14.040 and you

02:04:14.280 don't have

02:04:14.640 to choose

02:04:15.140 one or

02:04:15.840 the other

02:04:16.400 so the

02:04:18.000 the mission

02:04:19.600 of this

02:04:20.240 apostolate

02:04:20.700 is to

02:04:21.300 without

02:04:22.080 any kind

02:04:23.060 of denigration

02:04:23.540 of the

02:04:23.920 importance

02:04:24.240 of truth

02:04:24.780 is to

02:04:25.640 lead

02:04:26.000 with beauty

02:04:26.820 and with

02:04:27.980 that to

02:04:28.480 reopen the

02:04:29.420 eyes of

02:04:29.860 the culture

02:04:30.240 to the

02:04:30.580 possibility

02:04:31.120 of being

02:04:32.880 happy

02:04:33.300 and living

02:04:34.540 a life

02:04:34.940 that is

02:04:35.320 genuinely

02:04:36.640 enchanted

02:04:37.440 in a

02:04:38.360 non-magical

02:04:38.940 real sense

02:04:39.600 is it

02:04:43.620 working

02:04:43.960 are you

02:04:44.700 seeing

02:04:44.960 results

02:04:45.500 I think

02:04:47.880 so

02:04:48.160 I think

02:04:48.500 so

02:04:48.740 so you

02:04:49.760 know

02:04:49.920 I follow

02:04:50.900 word on fire

02:04:51.560 very closely

02:04:52.260 in terms

02:04:52.740 of their

02:04:53.220 the materials

02:04:54.260 they produce

02:04:54.860 and I

02:04:55.200 benefit from

02:04:55.700 them and

02:04:56.040 enjoy them

02:04:57.020 a lot

02:04:57.360 and I

02:04:57.960 think part

02:04:58.260 of the

02:04:58.460 success

02:04:58.940 is the

02:05:00.620 distinctive

02:05:02.620 work of

02:05:03.200 Bishop Robert

02:05:04.000 Barron

02:05:04.320 I mean I

02:05:04.600 think that

02:05:04.880 he is to

02:05:05.600 be credited

02:05:06.060 his own

02:05:07.600 way his

02:05:08.540 own intellectual

02:05:09.200 way of

02:05:10.120 putting things

02:05:10.780 and his

02:05:11.180 winning

02:05:11.520 way of

02:05:13.600 persuading

02:05:14.240 others I

02:05:14.700 think is

02:05:15.060 very

02:05:15.720 very powerful

02:05:17.120 and has

02:05:17.460 seen

02:05:17.840 great results

02:05:19.120 so I'm

02:05:20.080 very grateful

02:05:20.500 to be

02:05:20.740 connected

02:05:21.060 with word

02:05:21.720 on fire

02:05:22.220 and as

02:05:23.440 I say

02:05:23.700 not only

02:05:24.120 do I

02:05:24.480 sometimes

02:05:24.800 produce

02:05:25.620 content

02:05:25.980 for them

02:05:26.620 but also

02:05:27.000 I benefit

02:05:27.460 personally

02:05:27.900 from

02:05:28.280 listening

02:05:28.980 to

02:05:29.440 his

02:05:30.380 podcasts

02:05:31.280 his

02:05:32.180 sermons

02:05:32.900 etc

02:05:33.280 so it's

02:05:33.700 been a

02:05:34.020 real benefit

02:05:34.680 for me

02:05:35.180 I'm going

02:05:37.560 to be talking

02:05:38.080 to him

02:05:38.580 in a couple

02:05:39.100 of days

02:05:39.520 along with

02:05:40.080 Jonathan

02:05:40.560 Paggio

02:05:41.020 and John

02:05:41.780 Verveke

02:05:42.260 so I'm

02:05:43.180 very much

02:05:43.580 looking forward

02:05:44.160 to that

02:05:44.720 an extension

02:05:45.840 of this

02:05:46.280 conversation

02:05:46.920 I suppose

02:05:47.580 so it

02:05:48.900 is there

02:05:49.480 anything

02:05:49.840 that we

02:05:50.620 didn't

02:05:50.880 talk about

02:05:51.460 that you

02:05:52.500 think is

02:05:53.100 vital

02:05:53.480 that we

02:05:54.620 should

02:05:54.820 talk

02:05:55.120 about

02:05:55.460 well one

02:05:58.820 thing I

02:05:59.100 wanted to

02:05:59.420 ask you

02:05:59.980 and encourage

02:06:01.140 you really

02:06:01.580 would be

02:06:02.340 if at some

02:06:03.080 point you

02:06:03.520 could carry

02:06:04.800 out the

02:06:05.180 plan that

02:06:05.600 you've talked

02:06:05.980 about before

02:06:06.580 of giving

02:06:07.440 lectures on

02:06:08.460 Exodus

02:06:08.900 and I

02:06:09.860 realize given

02:06:10.460 COVID

02:06:10.740 restrictions and

02:06:11.440 things like

02:06:11.740 that maybe

02:06:12.160 it's impossible

02:06:13.620 right now

02:06:14.220 to rent

02:06:15.080 out a huge

02:06:15.500 place etc

02:06:16.120 but I

02:06:17.040 wonder if

02:06:17.640 you could

02:06:17.920 even just

02:06:18.560 do it

02:06:18.940 via video

02:06:20.520 right that

02:06:21.160 you you

02:06:22.260 know or

02:06:22.920 even to a

02:06:23.560 very small

02:06:24.040 group I

02:06:25.360 think that

02:06:26.180 your lectures

02:06:26.880 on Genesis

02:06:27.340 were such a

02:06:27.960 huge benefit

02:06:28.600 for literally

02:06:29.540 millions of

02:06:30.060 people and

02:06:31.360 I think that

02:06:32.280 lecturing on

02:06:33.280 Exodus which

02:06:33.860 in some ways

02:06:34.540 is an even

02:06:35.380 more gripping

02:06:35.900 story I

02:06:36.540 mean it's

02:06:36.860 very dramatic

02:06:37.600 I think that

02:06:38.920 could be an

02:06:39.760 enormous benefit

02:06:40.520 to many many

02:06:41.100 people so

02:06:41.720 anyway I

02:06:42.080 just want to

02:06:42.460 I was

02:06:42.660 wondering if

02:06:43.620 you were

02:06:43.980 planning on

02:06:45.060 doing that

02:06:45.420 or if you'd

02:06:45.820 be willing

02:06:46.160 maybe given

02:06:46.860 COVID and

02:06:47.560 restrictions

02:06:48.260 maybe to do

02:06:49.280 it in a

02:06:49.600 different format

02:06:50.160 slightly different

02:06:50.820 than you did

02:06:51.180 before

02:06:51.560 I'm trying to

02:06:54.100 figure out how

02:06:54.720 to do it

02:06:55.180 I've had a

02:06:56.620 lot of health

02:06:57.140 trouble and

02:06:57.820 it's got in

02:06:59.040 the way in a

02:06:59.700 big way I'm

02:07:00.660 trying to figure

02:07:01.180 out how to do

02:07:01.680 it and to

02:07:02.040 figure out if I

02:07:02.560 can do it

02:07:03.280 it's not obvious

02:07:04.280 to me what I'm

02:07:04.960 capable of doing

02:07:05.760 and what I can't

02:07:06.540 do so but

02:07:07.840 it's definitely

02:07:09.740 something I would

02:07:10.980 love to do

02:07:11.700 I mean I

02:07:12.920 have the

02:07:13.420 ideas I

02:07:15.340 developed them

02:07:16.380 in the

02:07:16.580 lectures obviously

02:07:17.360 but I would

02:07:19.280 love to do

02:07:19.860 it so God

02:07:22.300 willing and

02:07:23.060 all that

02:07:23.640 I would just end

02:07:26.460 with really a

02:07:27.420 statement I

02:07:28.340 suppose is

02:07:29.060 and I'm sure

02:07:30.300 you already

02:07:30.580 know this but

02:07:31.280 there are many

02:07:32.220 many believers

02:07:32.880 like ourselves

02:07:34.040 who are

02:07:35.300 praying for you

02:07:36.420 and who are

02:07:37.780 so grateful for

02:07:38.700 the work that

02:07:39.260 you are doing

02:07:39.840 whatever your

02:07:40.620 personal beliefs

02:07:41.360 are and however

02:07:41.960 you work that

02:07:42.640 out we're so

02:07:44.100 grateful for

02:07:44.940 your voice on

02:07:47.120 the international

02:07:48.000 stage and the

02:07:49.600 kinds of

02:07:50.480 arguments that

02:07:52.060 you're making

02:07:52.560 and the kinds

02:07:53.500 of appeals to

02:07:54.680 becoming better

02:07:57.100 both individually

02:07:58.020 and socially

02:07:58.840 as communities

02:08:00.120 you are a

02:08:02.560 light in the

02:08:02.900 darkness for

02:08:03.540 many people

02:08:04.400 and again I'm

02:08:05.540 saying that as a

02:08:06.380 believer from within

02:08:07.040 the Christian

02:08:07.440 community looking

02:08:08.180 out at someone

02:08:09.380 who's not claiming

02:08:10.320 to be a Christian

02:08:11.080 but I just want you

02:08:12.660 to know that we

02:08:13.340 are praying for you

02:08:14.100 and that we wish

02:08:15.300 you all the best

02:08:16.300 it's very much

02:08:18.320 appreciated

02:08:18.960 very much

02:08:19.840 appreciated

02:08:20.420 so I hope

02:08:22.460 that I can

02:08:23.020 I really hope

02:08:24.600 that I can do

02:08:25.200 these Exodus

02:08:25.860 lectures

02:08:26.380 that would be

02:08:27.120 something

02:08:27.440 so I'm working

02:08:29.340 out a way to

02:08:29.960 do it

02:08:30.280 I have a group

02:08:32.140 of people maybe

02:08:32.860 that I'm going

02:08:33.320 to talk to

02:08:33.820 Exodus about

02:08:34.440 I might just

02:08:34.960 record those

02:08:35.880 discussions like

02:08:37.500 this we'll walk

02:08:38.220 through it with

02:08:38.820 some people who

02:08:39.740 can help comment

02:08:41.640 so I think I

02:08:43.020 might be able to

02:08:43.560 manage that

02:08:44.180 we'll see

02:08:45.640 well thank you

02:08:46.800 very much

02:08:47.640 gentlemen

02:08:48.100 and for the

02:08:50.260 attention that you

02:08:50.960 showed me in the

02:08:51.600 book and all of

02:08:52.300 that and for the

02:08:53.060 work you're doing

02:08:53.680 with Word on Fire

02:08:54.840 and hopefully

02:08:56.680 we'll get a chance

02:08:57.440 to talk again

02:08:58.120 we'll see what

02:08:58.680 people think of

02:08:59.300 this conversation

02:09:00.080 see what they

02:09:01.260 might want to

02:09:01.720 hear more about

02:09:02.380 or less about

02:09:03.720 so

02:09:05.060 thank you Jordan

02:09:07.780 thank you

02:09:08.360 thank you

02:09:09.160 all right

02:09:09.580 bye bye

The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast - December 27, 2021

212. Jordan Peterson, God, and Christianity with Word on Fire

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