222. Needle Points ｜ Norman Doidge
Episode Stats
Length
3 hours and 29 minutes
Words per minute
130.66544
Harmful content
Misogyny
19
sentences flagged
Toxicity
23
sentences flagged
Hate speech
68
sentences flagged
Summary
Dr. Jordan B. Peterson has created a new series that could be a lifeline for those battling depression and anxiety. We know how isolating and overwhelming these conditions can be, and we wanted to take a moment to reach out to those listening who may be struggling. With decades of experience helping patients, Dr. Peterson offers a unique understanding of why you might be feeling this way. He provides a roadmap towards healing, showing that while the journey isn t easy, it s absolutely possible to find your way forward. If you re suffering, please know you are not alone. There s hope and there s a path to feeling better. Go to Dailywire.plus/JBPpodcast and start watching this new series on Depression and Anxiety, starting now. Subscribe to Daily Wire Plus now and start getting 20% off plus a 10% senior or military discount. That s a 20% discount plus a $10 discount per household. You can sign up for $10 a month or $100 a year. That'll change what you press on in Spotify or Apple Podcasts, or wherever else you listen to podcasts to the ad-free version. This is a crucial piece of journalism, and I'm glad we can put it out in front of so many of you! Dr. Norman Doidge is a psychiatrist, psychoanalyst, author, and author of The Brain That Changes Itself. He was part of the research faculty at Columbia University and the University of Toronto's psychiatry department for 30 years. He was a member of the Jung Society in Montreal's Psychiatry Department for over 30 years, and was a founding member of The Jung s The Jung Society. . He's a writer, and he's also writes for The New York Times bestseller, and is a public speaker, and has been a regular contributor to The Daily Wire, and a regular guest on the New York Magazine, and his wife, and writes a blog, and hosts a podcast. and is the author, a podcast, and so much more. In this is a must-listen-listener, and you can get a copy of his work on this episode of his book, The God That Changes itself. And he's got it all. Thanks to Dr. Pajot, and it's a free copy of The Divine Feminine Feminine, coming soon. If you want an ad free experience of this podcast, check out show notes, check it out here.
Transcript
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Hey everyone, real quick before you skip, I want to talk to you about something serious and important.
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Dr. Jordan Peterson has created a new series that could be a lifeline for those battling depression
00:01:27.040
and anxiety. We know how isolating and overwhelming these conditions can be, and we wanted to take a
00:01:32.820
moment to reach out to those listening who may be struggling. With decades of experience helping
00:01:37.440
patients, Dr. Peterson offers a unique understanding of why you might be feeling this way in his new
00:01:42.680
series. He provides a roadmap towards healing, showing that while the journey isn't easy, it's absolutely
00:01:48.680
possible to find your way forward. If you're suffering, please know you are not alone. There's
00:01:54.460
hope and there's a path to feeling better. Go to Daily Wire Plus now and start watching Dr. Jordan
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B. Peterson on depression and anxiety. Let this be the first step towards the brighter future you deserve.
00:02:09.440
Welcome to Season 4, Episode 79 of the JBP Podcast. I'm Michaela Peterson. Dr. Norman Doidge,
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an old family friend, wrote an article for Tablet Magazine that really struck chords with my dad.
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He called it the most penetrating analysis he had read about COVID policies and their effect on the
00:02:28.340
general public. The article is titled Needle Points, Why So Many Are Hesitant to Get the COVID Vaccines
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and What We Can Do About It. Dad decided the best way to maximize exposure, because he really wants people
00:02:39.680
to read this, would be a recording where Dr. Doidge reads Needle Points himself.
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Norman Doidge is a psychiatrist, psychoanalyst, and the author of the New York Times bestseller,
00:02:50.200
The Brain That Changes Itself. He was part of the research faculty at Columbia University
00:02:54.900
and the University of Toronto's psychiatry department for 30 years.
00:02:58.520
This is a crucial piece of journalism, and I'm glad we can put it out in front of so many of you.
00:03:05.880
Again, if you want an ad-free experience of this podcast, check out show notes or go to
00:03:10.580
jordanbpeterson.supercast.com and you can sign up for $10 a month or $100 a year.
00:03:17.160
That'll change what you press on in Spotify or Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen to podcasts
00:03:24.160
Hello, everyone. I've begun to consider using my YouTube channel and podcast for material
00:03:33.960
generated by people other than myself. I recently put up a lecture by Jonathan Pajot that was delivered
00:03:42.300
to the Jung Society in Montreal. I thought it was particularly brilliant. Discussion of the
00:03:48.780
underlying narrative structure and conceptual structure of Genesis. I added that to the
00:03:55.660
sequence of my videos on Genesis. My wife is going to be releasing a series of interviews
00:04:02.280
with Jonathan Pajot as part of her investigation into the nature of the divine feminine. So that's
00:04:08.480
coming up soon. And in this instance, I asked my friend and colleague, psychiatrist Dr.
00:04:17.520
Norman Doidge, to read an essay he wrote a few weeks ago called Needle Points, which is the most
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penetrating analysis that I've read about the COVID policies that have bedeviled and helped us
00:04:32.840
over the last few years. Dr. Doidge is a psychiatrist and a psychoanalyst and a solid scientist,
00:04:41.140
renowned for his writing on science and the brain. And in my opinion, Canada's most literate
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physician writer. He's also a friend and colleague of mine. He wrote the introduction to 12 rules of
00:04:54.000
life. His essay Needle Points, which he's reading today, first appeared a few weeks ago in Tablet
00:05:00.060
Magazine, but it's perhaps even more relevant today. Like me, Dr. Doidge is vaccinated. He describes the
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history of vaccines, praises what he calls the kernel insight, and makes a solid and intelligent case
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for the utility of the technology. Then he details the COVID state of mind, describes the working in
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nature of the brain circuits triggered by contagion, and helps explain why the issue of vaccination is
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tearing families, friendships, professions, and even states apart. He describes why debates about
00:05:35.220
vaccination and infection policies are always emotionally radioactive on both sides of the debate,
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showing us why our reason is threatened during contagion, detailing why we are then tempted to treat
00:05:47.860
each other so badly. He explains why those who hesitate in the face of the current policies surrounding
00:05:54.760
vaccination have concerns more justified by history and experience than they are often credited with,
00:06:02.880
particularly when their views are caricatured and demonized. He makes the case that the best path
00:06:08.700
through the current crisis is not through coercion, that such coercion is in fact a reliable indicator
00:06:15.700
of failed government communication and policy. Dr. Doidge describes the alternative participatory model
00:06:24.760
in which humane physicians speak to patients respectfully and as individuals with their own agency,
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and explains that those who adopt this approach do much better public health work,
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as would governments if they wished to enhance instead of degrade trust in public health.
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I've now shared this article with conservatives and liberals alike in Canada,
00:06:48.080
and Democrats and Republicans in the U.S., many of them. All who have received it and read it in this
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polarized time have expressed their appreciation for its content and its writer. Dr. Norman Doidge
00:07:01.800
did his homework as he always does. He's the author of The Brain That Changes Itself and is currently a
00:07:09.700
contributing writer for Tablet Magazine, where this article is published and where all the links to the
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scientific references he quotes can be found. He's also executive director of Health and the Greater Good,
00:07:23.480
a new think tank devoted to finding solutions to health problems that respect civil liberties so that
00:07:30.460
neither health nor civil liberties need needlessly be at the expense of the other. I wanted to bring
00:07:39.420
this article to the broadest public attention possible given its importance and felt that having Dr. Doidge
00:07:46.380
read it so that people could watch it and listen to it on YouTube and in podcasts,
00:07:51.580
assuming that would be the most effective way to disseminate the information.
00:07:56.300
So, without further ado, Dr. Norman Doidge and Needle Points.
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Needle Points. Why so many are hesitant to get the COVID vaccines and what we can do about it.
00:08:16.520
By Norman Doidge. Read by the author. October 27th, 2021.
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Since my days in medical school, I've had a fascination with the kernel insight behind vaccination.
00:08:32.200
That one could successfully expose a person to an attenuated version of a microbe that would prepare
00:08:39.000
and protect them for a potentially lethal encounter with the actual microbe.
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I marveled at how it tutors an immune system that, like the brain, has memory and a kind of intelligence
00:09:01.020
At times, modern science and modern medicine seem based on a fantasy that imagines the role of medicine
00:09:08.160
is to conquer nature, as though we can wage a war against all microbes with antimicrobials
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to create a world where we will no longer suffer from infectious disease.
00:09:21.360
Vaccination is not based on that sterile vision, but it's opposite.
00:09:26.320
It works with our educable immune system, which evolved millions of years ago,
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to deal with the fact that we must always coexist with microbes.
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It helps us to use our own resources to protect ourselves.
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Doing so is in accord with the essential insight of Hippocrates,
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who understood that the major part of healing comes from within,
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that it is best to work with nature and not against it.
00:10:04.560
and it has almost always been difficult to have a non-emotionally charged discussion about them.
00:10:10.340
One reason is that in humans and other animals,
00:10:16.940
any infection can trigger an archaic brain circuit
00:10:20.420
in most of us called the behavioral immune system, or BIS.
00:10:26.500
It's a circuit that's triggered when we sense we may be near a potential carrier of disease,
00:10:36.180
It's involuntary, and not easy to shut off once it's been turned on.
00:10:44.080
The behavioral immune system is best understood in contrast to the regular immune system.
00:10:50.720
The regular immune system consists of antibodies and T-cells and so on,
00:10:56.240
and it evolved to protect us once a problematic microbe gets inside us.
00:11:04.980
It evolved to prevent us from getting infected in the first place
00:11:21.340
encounters with different tribes could wipe out one's own tribe
00:11:26.120
Often, the foreign tribe had its own long history of exposure to pathogens,
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but to which it had developed immunity in some way.
00:11:46.380
whereby anything or anyone that seems like it might bear significant illness
00:11:51.780
can trigger an ancient brain circuit of fear, disgust, and avoidance.
00:12:02.640
because it's normally expressed by getting close to the object
00:12:22.500
and, I should add, to the fear of being poisoned,
00:12:25.360
which, before the development of modern chemistry,
00:12:35.520
Thus, it can also be triggered by non-animate things
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The BIS doesn't get or stay activated in people
00:13:00.400
perhaps because they have good personal protective equipment,
00:13:04.040
or because youth gives them strong innate immunity,
00:13:11.160
or because they're seriously misled or delusional
00:13:19.840
what might trigger the system is rather plastic,
00:13:40.240
Because it focuses on potential bearers of disease,
00:54:41.920
internal documents reviewed, one illegal activity
00:54:50.300
Pfizer was fined $2.3 billion for promoting the
00:54:57.120
painkiller Bextra, later taken off the market over
00:55:07.520
mislead, the largest criminal fine ever imposed in
00:55:24.420
fine for civil and criminal fraud after pleading
00:55:28.080
guilty to a vast range of charges around unlawful
00:55:36.840
Quote, Abbott was fined $1.5 billion in May 2012
00:55:44.020
Quote, Eli Lilly was fined $1.4 billion in 2009.
00:55:50.020
Quote, AstraZeneca was fined $520 million in 2010.
00:56:00.520
After Goldacre's book was published, the fines kept
00:56:05.040
Johnson & Johnson was made to pay $2.2 billion in
00:56:11.500
Department, quote, criminal fines, close quote, for
00:56:15.120
having, quote, jeopardized the health and safety of
00:56:18.660
patients and damaged the public trust, close quote.
00:56:22.500
In 2019, the company was fined another $572 million for
00:56:26.600
its role in the opioid epidemic and then fined a
00:56:29.760
whopping $8 billion by a jury in a different case, an
00:56:33.480
amount that will no doubt be reduced, but which signals
00:56:37.740
These huge fines, year after year, involve popular drugs
00:56:45.560
taken by tens of millions of patients with negative effects,
00:56:51.440
Stories of devastation have become lore in many families and
00:56:56.740
The circle of concern is even wider if you include those who may
00:57:01.280
not have been personally affected, but are aware of this
00:57:05.360
When you personally take a medication, you tend to notice
00:57:13.180
Whether or not you've experienced any negative effects
00:57:15.760
yourself, you are naturally alert to their existence.
00:57:20.340
Each time a big pharma company is in the courts and in the
00:57:24.020
media because of some problem, the seeds of skepticism are
00:57:29.800
The transgressions mentioned above were only possible on such a
00:57:42.620
scale because of a textbook case of regulatory capture consisting of
00:57:48.180
a mixture of perverse incentives and priorities, a tolerance for
00:57:53.220
non-transparency, and in some cases, a culture of collusion.
00:57:57.680
The FDA bills big pharma $800 million a year, which in turn helps pay FDA
00:58:07.780
Regulators also often get jobs in the pharmaceutical industry shortly
00:58:16.780
There is a huge incentive to impress and certainly not to cross a
00:58:23.360
It's useful to see how this works by examining a case that became famous as a
00:58:32.260
tale of epic greed and corruption and which patients and physicians were
00:58:38.800
Only after patients, families, activists, and even whole communities yelled
00:58:46.080
In 1995, the FDA approved OxyContin for short-term serious pain, like terminal cancer or post-operative
00:58:56.980
This approval was based on legitimate scientific studies related to these narrow experiences.
00:59:03.680
The FDA then made it available for minor pains with around-the-clock daily usage in 2001.
00:59:11.100
That approval for long-term use was not based on any studies.
00:59:36.880
The opioid epidemic has, to date, left half a million Americans dead.
00:59:45.140
This same compromised regulatory system allows big pharma to pay for and play a key role in
00:59:52.620
performing the very studies that lead to the authorization of its own products.
00:59:58.860
For decades, it was not just common for authors of studies to receive payments from the very
01:00:11.860
Drug companies secretly ghost-wrote studies of their own drugs.
01:00:16.380
Goldacre shows how they conscripted academics to pretend they had authored them.
01:00:21.280
The papers were then submitted to mainstream journals,
01:00:24.740
whose imputure would give the studies credibility,
01:00:31.680
16 of the 20 papers reporting on the clinical trials conducted on Vioxx,
01:00:39.180
the anti-inflammatory and pain medication that got FDA approval in 1999,
01:00:44.120
then was taken off the market in 2004 for causing heart attacks and strokes,
01:00:56.020
Merck ultimately agreed to pay out $4.9 billion in Vioxx lawsuits.
01:01:01.680
The academics who lent their names to the studies could then stuff their CVs with these articles,
01:01:08.260
receive promotions and higher salaries within academia,
01:01:11.980
and ultimately get more consulting fees from pharmaceutical companies,
01:01:25.820
companies run the studies of their own products.
01:01:29.000
A Danish study found that 75% of drug company self-studies assessed were ghost-written.
01:01:36.540
A leading U.S. editor of a specialist journal estimated that 33% of articles submitted to his journal
01:01:45.780
These impostures don't get adequately investigated by Congress
01:01:50.500
because the pharmaceutical and health industries are now the highest-paying lobby in the country,
01:01:56.460
having doled out at least $4.5 billion in the last two decades to politicians of both parties.
01:02:04.540
While Goldacre's book shows the many ways that drug studies have been rigged to deliver certain outcomes,
01:02:29.100
one doesn't always have to rig a study to get the same result.
01:02:33.760
Among the most common techniques is to delay the reporting of medication side effects
01:02:41.140
and then use the bad publicity to sell a new replacement medication,
01:02:48.580
Polls repeatedly show that the chief concern among the vaccine hesitant is about side effects,
01:02:54.600
or at least effects that don't show up right away.
01:02:58.100
The latest edition of the standard textbook in the field, Plotkin's Vaccine,
01:03:03.980
has an excellent chapter on vaccine safety which notes,
01:03:08.000
Because reactions that are rare, delayed, or which occur in only certain subpopulations
01:03:14.140
may not be detected before vaccines are licensed,
01:03:18.220
post-licensure evaluation of vaccine safety is critical.
01:03:26.960
So, for most vaccines, that means more follow-up after the typical two-year approval process,
01:03:35.800
In 2018, the New York Times pro-vaccine science writer Melinda Wenner-Moyer
01:03:41.380
noted with shock that she learned it was not uncommon among vaccine researchers
01:03:47.360
to take the attitude that censoring bad news about their research was necessary,
01:03:52.820
and that some who didn't were ostracized by their peers.
01:04:00.200
I've written several articles to quell vaccine angst and encourage immunization.
01:04:05.100
But lately, I've noticed that the cloud of fear surrounding vaccines is having another
01:04:13.260
It is eroding the integrity of vaccine science.
01:04:17.480
In February, I was awarded a fellowship by the nonpartisan Alicia Patterson Foundation
01:04:30.320
When I tried to report on unexpected or controversial aspects of vaccine efficacy or safety,
01:04:41.080
When I did get them on the phone, a worrying theme emerged.
01:04:46.320
Scientists are so terrified of the public's vaccine hesitancy that they are censoring themselves,
01:04:54.600
and perhaps even avoiding undertaking studies that could show unwanted effects.
01:05:01.540
Those who break these unwritten rules are criticized.
01:05:07.780
Moyer went on to quote authorities who argue that smaller studies,
01:05:14.220
often give us the first glimpse of an insight or problem.
01:05:23.040
If scientists play down their undesirable findings in potentially mandated medicines,
01:05:31.540
they are not just missing opportunities for good science.
01:05:35.280
They are potentially generating anti-scientific misinformation.
01:05:39.840
By the time Moyer published her article in 2018,
01:05:56.380
many Americans were already long in the habit of questioning certain elements of their public health,
01:06:02.740
in part because of this hornet's nest of corruption and regulatory capture.
01:06:07.060
But this habit could also be explained in part by the general trend in medicine over the past two decades
01:06:14.840
towards recognizing the superiority of individually tailored interventions or personalized medicine,
01:06:21.780
which acknowledges that different people have different risk factors, genetics,
01:06:27.520
medical histories, and reactions to medical products.
01:06:30.560
It is now commonplace for people to take responsibility for their own health
01:06:35.740
because this is precisely what we have been telling them to do,
01:06:40.080
encouraging them to get to know their own unique risk factors for disease
01:06:44.240
based on their own individual histories and genetics.
01:06:48.740
Vaccines, in contrast, are a one-size-fits-all intervention
0.53
01:06:52.820
administered en masse by those who know nothing specific about the vaccinees or their children,
01:06:59.100
and when political and medical authorities change policies from day to day
01:07:05.420
and public health recommendations in one jurisdiction or country differ from those in others,
01:07:13.820
The public has been assured that we in health care recognize that the era of medical authoritarianism
01:07:20.880
and the ugly practices that led us to require informed consent are behind us.
01:07:25.700
This means that whenever there is a treatment on hand,
01:07:31.080
the burden of proof to demonstrate that it is safe and effective must fall on those who offer it.
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It means we must never stifle questions or shame people for being anxious.
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I'm a psychiatrist and a psychoanalyst, and I deal with people's anxieties, and their paranoia too.
01:11:07.280
Many people think the anxious are necessarily weak.
01:11:11.540
One medical colleague calls the vaccine hesitant wimps.
01:11:14.640
But this is, if not entirely wrong, a superficial way of understanding anxiety.
01:11:25.340
It evolved to get us to pay attention to something, sometimes an external threat, and sometimes an internal one,
01:11:33.140
such as an ignored feeling or forbidden thought threatening to emerge from within.
01:11:43.780
It can also save your life, because dangers do exist.
01:11:47.380
When people don't experience enough anxiety, we say they're in denial.
01:11:52.660
Thus, in some situations, the capacity to feel anxiety can be an advantage,
01:11:57.600
which is likely why it's preserved in evolution in so many animals.
01:12:05.040
As he noted, the courageous person, say a soldier, can and should feel anxious.
01:12:12.600
He is facing danger, after all, and his wisdom tells him there is risk.
01:12:17.620
What distinguishes the courageous person from the coward is not that they don't worry or fear,
01:12:22.900
but they can still manage to move forward into the dangerous situation they cannot avoid facing.
01:12:29.020
All of which is to say that the presence of anxiety alone is not dispositive of sanity or insanity.
01:12:37.700
It alone does not tell you whether the anxiety is well or ill-founded.
01:12:45.540
Sometimes distrust is paranoia, and sometimes it's healthy skepticism.
01:12:50.300
As of a September 2019 Gallup poll, only a few months before the COVID-19 pandemic,
01:12:59.200
Big Pharma was the least trusted of America's top 25 industry sectors, number 25 of 25.
01:13:07.520
In the eyes of ordinary Americans, it had both the highest negatives and the lowest positives of all industries.
01:13:15.780
At number 24 was the federal government, and at number 23 was the healthcare industry.
01:13:24.820
These three industries form a neat troika, though at number 22 was the advertising and public relations industry,
01:13:35.380
Those inside the troika often characterize the vaccine hesitant as broadly fringe and paranoid.
01:13:43.640
But there are plenty of industries and sectors that Americans do trust.
01:13:50.240
Of the top 25 industry sectors, 21 enjoy net positive views from American voters.
01:13:57.280
Only pharma, government, healthcare, and PR are seen as net negative.
01:14:02.880
Precisely the sectors involved in the rollout of the COVID vaccines.
01:14:10.200
This set the conditions, in a way, for a perfect storm.
01:14:21.640
In February and March 2020, it became clear that the disaster that had swept through Wuhan
01:14:30.540
As frontline healthcare workers were dying in both China and Italy,
01:14:35.780
the virus had also spread throughout Western Europe and arrived in North America.
01:14:41.420
Early reports of the case fatality rate reached over 14.5% in Italy in the spring,
01:14:48.780
and in Spain, Sweden, and other hotspots, it was over 11%,
01:14:53.420
devouring the elderly in every affected country.
01:14:57.280
PPE often didn't exist for frontline healthcare workers.
01:15:06.100
Citizens were told masks would not protect them,
01:15:12.120
While hospitals could provide oxygen, this was often insufficient,
01:15:18.700
which may have made some cases worse and was a horrible way to die.
01:15:23.400
While much of the United States was terrified, there was some light.
01:15:30.740
Dr. Anthony Fauci, the physician-scientist now running the country's pandemic defense,
01:15:51.380
Fauci seemed steady when events took unexpected turns,
01:15:55.620
explaining that we were learning as we went along.
01:15:58.780
He said the lockdown would be for 15 days to flatten the curve.
01:16:09.960
In a United States exhausted by its hyper-polarized political scene,
01:16:16.620
here was someone who had worked with both parties,
01:16:24.920
he could be seen as an employee of and messenger for President Donald Trump.
01:16:35.100
the National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Disease,
01:16:42.400
and played vital roles in the fights against AIDS and Ebola.
01:16:47.780
There was a widespread sense that Fauci was the right man at the right time.
01:16:57.460
After claiming the science showed the masks were unnecessary,
01:17:01.260
Fauci later said they were absolutely necessary.
01:17:13.900
initially introduced as temporary to flatten the curve.
01:17:17.320
They were later extended to become a new way of life,
01:17:45.860
many regular people struggled to make sense of its origins.
01:17:51.660
had claimed the virus emerged from a wet market,
01:17:59.180
There was obviously a cover-up unfolding in China,
01:18:08.020
of Wuhan physicians who witnessed the first cases,
01:18:11.920
and who would have had ideas about where it started.
01:18:17.260
Various observers argued that there was reason to consider
01:18:20.540
that COVID may have leaked from the Wuhan Institute of Virology,
01:18:29.780
in which a natural virus is made more contagious and lethal,
01:18:34.560
ostensibly to see if the scientists can get ahead of nature,
01:57:47.360
Just go to Hallow.com slash Jordan and download
01:57:50.060
the Hallow app today for an exclusive three-month
01:58:05.040
frontline health care workers said they did not
01:58:08.200
plan to get vaccinated, and an additional 18% were not
01:58:14.320
Given the WHO's own definition of the vaccine hesitant,
01:58:19.080
people who delay or are reluctant to take a vaccine,
01:58:26.300
health care workers were vaccine hesitant at the
01:58:30.920
It was hard to argue that these were people who got all
01:58:33.880
their information from a few rancid conspiracy websites.
01:58:38.360
In fact, many of these professionals are vaccinated for
01:58:43.640
Nor can we argue that frontline workers are overly anxious
01:58:52.840
At other times, we are told that the hesitant are only those
01:58:58.340
But a Carnegie Mellon and University of Pittsburgh study showed
01:59:03.760
PhDs were the most hesitant group, close quote.
01:59:10.740
Senate Committee on Health asked Fauci how many employees of
01:59:14.620
the NIH, the nation's premier health science research
01:59:20.960
I'm not 100% sure, Senator, but I think it's probably a little
01:59:24.400
bit more than half, probably around 60%, he said.
01:59:28.600
The Senator asked the same question of Dr. Peter Marks,
01:59:32.280
director of the Center for Biologics Evaluation and Research
01:59:35.420
at the Food and Drug Administration, about the FDA employees'
01:59:40.980
Quote, it's probably in the same range, close quote, he answered,
01:59:44.460
In studies in the West, the hesitant repeatedly expressed
01:59:50.720
as the top reason for their reluctance to get vaccinated
01:59:54.180
concerns about what we might call future unknown effects.
01:59:59.200
In a May study of Britain, for instance, 42.7% cited this
02:00:08.120
The hesitant were not particularly concerned about trivial
02:00:11.180
short-term side effects like sore arms, fatigue, or a passing
02:00:16.580
Only 7.6% were distrustful of vaccination generally.
02:00:22.280
In the United States, a multi-university study of over
02:00:26.640
20,000 people found safety concerns or uncertainty of the risk
02:00:31.640
as the top reason given for vaccine hesitancy, 59%.
02:00:36.180
Only 33% agreed that vaccines are thoroughly tested in advance
02:00:46.580
massive differences between the vaccinated and the unvaccinated
02:00:49.980
in terms of their trust of different people and organizations,
02:00:56.420
An Ipso World Economic Forum survey of 15 countries showed that
02:01:03.440
in all 15 countries, the leading reason the reluctant gave was fear
02:01:08.080
of side effects, exceeding all other concerns by far.
02:01:12.700
In all countries surveyed, the number of people who said they were,
02:01:17.460
quote, against vaccines, close quote, in other words,
02:01:21.000
the anti-vax position, was generally a minor fraction of those who hadn't
02:01:30.020
A common theme in France, Britain, and the United States, in fact,
02:01:33.760
is distrust of the vaccine troika, big pharma, government, and public health,
02:01:38.040
and the healthcare industry, and an insistence that individuals should have
02:01:44.940
These similarities are worth paying attention to because they suggest that
02:01:51.080
the attempt to explain the phenomenon by using the group identifiers American
02:01:55.980
media is so fond of, sex, race, religion, and political affiliation,
02:02:01.160
falls short and shifts attention away from the real issues creating distrust.
02:02:08.940
On May 11th, Fauci appeared in front of a Senate hearing.
02:02:12.920
Quote, the NIH and the NIAID categorically has not funded gain-of-function research
02:02:20.820
to be conducted in the Wuhan Institute of Virology, he said.
02:02:25.620
Yet, in a circumvention of the Obama administration's 2014 moratorium,
02:02:32.320
and to the disapproval of many in the U.S. scientific community,
02:02:36.900
Fauci's agency did fund a U.S. company called EcoHealth Alliance,
02:02:41.400
which then facilitated gain-of-function research in collaboration with the Wuhan Institute of Virology.
02:02:54.200
Fauci's agency funded EcoHealth and Peter Daszak,
02:02:57.940
a well-known gain-of-function researcher who subcontracted the grant to the Wuhan lab,
02:03:02.840
where gain-of-function research on bat viruses was conducted and led by Dr. Shi Zhengli,
02:03:10.600
and which wasn't subject to the U.S. government moratorium.
02:03:19.660
had told the House Appropriations Subcommittee that the NIH did not fund gain-of-function in Wuhan.
02:03:26.340
But later, after Fauci reversed his prior claim and said it was possible,
02:03:35.900
We of course do not have internal insight as to what was going on in the Wuhan Institute of Virology.
02:03:43.960
Both reversals came only after the plausibility of the lab leak theory
02:03:48.540
started to gain mainstream acceptance and public pressure mounted.
02:03:52.860
While Fauci's denial in the Senate might have been technically accurate, it was misleading.
02:04:01.620
Neither agency directly funded this kind of research, but did do so through a third party.
02:04:07.780
As it turned out, Fauci himself wrote in 2012 that he, like gain-of-function critics,
02:04:15.920
An important gain-of-function experiment involving a virus with serious pandemic potential,
02:04:57.720
although he denied to Congress that his organization funded experiments
02:05:20.620
His denial of gain-of-function ultimately proved unconvincing,
02:05:24.780
since funding of it was already part of the NIH Committee and Grant paper trail.
02:05:42.240
and specifically thanked the NIH and EcoHealth for funding her work.
02:05:55.300
not only qualifies as gain-of-function research,
02:06:00.360
and specifically states that it was funded by an NIH-NIAID grant.
02:06:09.240
because it was part of the larger story that the public was following.
02:06:14.600
Learning that the agencies and officials charged with leading Americans out of the pandemic
02:06:19.760
in fact had links to a Chinese lab with a history of safety violations,
02:06:25.620
and which also appeared to be involved in dangerous experiments
02:06:28.920
that might be linked to the outbreak in Wuhan was, for many, profoundly unsettling.
02:06:36.760
Meanwhile, the enmeshment between the FDA and pharma was becoming more relevant.
02:06:53.340
during which time the agency approved the Moderna and Pfizer vaccines,
02:06:58.200
became chief medical officer of Flagship Pioneering,
02:07:02.280
the venture capital firm that launched Moderna in 2010
02:07:19.460
On June 3, three scientists from an FDA advisory committee,
02:07:25.960
professor of medicine at Harvard Medical School,
02:07:30.540
a neurologist at Washington University in St. Louis,
02:07:38.000
resigned because of the way an Alzheimer's drug,
02:07:44.060
Kesselheim claimed that the authorization of Aduhelm,
02:07:59.560
starting from the fact that there's no good evidence that the drug works,
02:08:05.320
probably the worst drug approval decision in recent U.S. history,
02:08:19.160
It's worth translating this episode into plain English.
02:08:22.840
In the middle of the biggest vaccine rollout in U.S. history,
02:08:26.820
which the government determined to be the only way out of the pandemic,
02:08:31.840
but which also faced stiff headwinds of deep-seated popular hesitancy,
02:08:36.300
the FDA approved a drug that would line a pharmaceutical company's pockets with billions of taxpayer dollars,
02:08:44.320
even though studies showed the drug did little but raise false hopes.
02:08:49.240
In 2016, the director of the FDA's Center for Drug Evaluation and Research, Dr. Janet Woodcott,
02:09:05.460
approved a drug called Etaplersin over the objections of all the main FDA scientific reviewers.
02:09:13.920
The grounds for the approval were not that patients got better, they didn't.
02:09:19.740
Rather, a kind of lab value, which can function as a biomarker or indicator of disease, improved.
02:09:29.320
That was taken as good enough evidence to approve their drug.
02:09:34.080
As Kesselheim and co-author Jerry Avron later warned in the Journal of the American Medical Association,
02:09:40.940
Speeding drugs to market based on such biomarker outcomes can actually lead to a worse outcome for patients.
02:09:52.360
the FDA's two top vaccine officials announced they were also leaving.
02:10:01.400
director of the FDA Office of Vaccines Research and Review and a 32-year agency veteran,
02:10:11.440
were leaving because of outside pressure by the Biden administration to approve boosters
02:10:16.340
before the FDA had completed its own approval process.
02:10:20.640
Meanwhile, Pfizer, doing more science by press release,
02:10:26.860
a technique that often jacks up a company's stock,
02:10:32.700
hailing great results with COVID-19 boosters and shots for school-age children, close quote.
02:10:43.720
Gruber, Krauss, and multiple international colleagues raised a red flag about pushing through a booster in the general population.
02:10:52.900
There could be risks if boosters are widely introduced too soon or too frequently,
02:10:59.280
especially with vaccines that can have immune-mediated side effects,
02:11:04.460
such as myocarditis, which is more common after the second dose of some mRNA vaccines,
02:11:10.120
or Guillain-Barré syndrome, which has been associated with adenovectored COVID-19 vaccines,
02:11:21.320
If unnecessary boosting causes significant adverse reactions,
02:11:25.660
there could be implications for vaccine acceptance that go beyond COVID-19 vaccines.
02:11:31.580
Thus, widespread boosting should be undertaken only if there is clear evidence that it is appropriate, close quote.
02:11:47.260
As vaccine researcher David Wiseman, who did trials for rival Johnson & Johnson,
02:11:56.400
There was no randomized control, close quote, in the Pfizer study.
02:12:03.700
than the people who were at most at risk of COVID death or serious illness,
02:12:11.980
So we didn't actually know how long the booster would last,
02:12:15.360
or if adverse events might show up after the 30 days.
02:12:21.580
so there was no information on infections, hospitalizations, or deaths.
02:12:28.720
precisely the kind of shortcut that was taken with a person.
02:12:40.280
In the first, it voted overwhelmingly, 16 to 2,
02:12:43.760
against approving Pfizer boosters for all ages.
02:12:49.140
the panel supported boosters only for people over 65,
02:12:59.040
Biden began publicly supporting boosters for all.
02:13:25.220
and was going around the FDA committee once again.
02:13:28.100
It was not only the Pfizer booster study that was weak.
02:13:46.180
and thus showed it was protective for that period,
02:14:02.020
Along with the widespread attacks on scientists
02:14:04.540
who had criticisms of the simplified master narrative,
02:14:19.000
weren't as widely known as they might have been,
02:14:38.540
is telling you when it stops censoring something.
02:15:09.360
had funded the same gain-of-function researcher,
03:03:43.020
government and related institutions, it has to be
03:03:46.500
understood not only in terms of vaccines, but in the
03:03:50.580
context of the pandemic more broadly, first and
03:03:58.440
For many, trust was broken by the lockdowns, which
03:04:02.340
devastated small businesses and their employees, even
03:04:05.780
when they complied with safety rules, such that an
03:04:08.920
estimated one-third of these businesses that were open in
03:04:11.960
January of 2020 were closed in April of 2021, even as
03:04:18.180
we kept open huge corporate box stores where people crowded
03:04:24.120
These policies were arguably the biggest assault on the
03:04:28.180
working classes, many of whom protected the rest of us by
03:04:32.000
keeping society going in the worst of the pandemic in
03:04:37.620
That these policies also enriched the already incredibly
03:04:41.700
wealthy, the combined wealth of the world's 10 richest
03:04:45.760
men, the likes of Jeff Bezos, Mark Zuckerberg, Bill Gates, and
03:04:49.200
Larry Page, is estimated to have risen by $540 billion in
03:04:54.820
the first 10 months of the pandemic, and that various
03:04:58.840
politicians who instituted lockdowns were regularly caught
03:05:02.440
skirting their own regulations, solidified this distrust.
03:05:07.760
And yet, it is the unvaccinated who many leading officials
03:05:12.080
still portray as recklessly endangering the rest of the
03:05:16.940
Quote, we're going to protect vaccinated workers from
0.95
03:05:20.320
unvaccinated co-workers, President Biden has said.
03:05:24.880
The unvaccinated are now presented as the sole source of
03:05:29.000
future variants, prolonging the pain for the rest of us.
03:05:33.620
For those in favor of mandates, the vaccine is the only way out
03:05:38.160
of the crisis to them, the vaccine hesitant are merely
0.90
03:05:48.100
They believe, but these people are Neanderthal who must now be
1.00
03:05:56.400
Among the punishments called for is not just loss of
03:05:59.220
employment, but also of unemployment insurance, health
03:06:03.000
care, access to ICU beds, even the ability to go to grocery
03:06:10.280
It's not trivial to override the core felt sense in a democracy
03:06:15.380
that if anything is one's own, it's one's body.
03:06:20.440
The idea of the state or a doctor performing a medical procedure
03:06:24.940
forcibly on a person or drugging them into compliance without
03:06:29.260
their consent is an abiding, terrifying theme of many
03:06:34.040
science fiction dystopias, and it's a fear that runs very
03:06:40.120
This fear runs deeper in some people than their fear of the virus
03:06:44.120
or losing their jobs or pensions, as we are seeing.
03:06:48.220
History shows that these are not just fantasies.
03:06:52.100
Past medical and public health abuses really did make use of
03:06:56.060
forced injections of drugs, operations, sterilizations, and
03:07:00.680
even psychiatric abuses in totalitarian and democratic
03:07:07.060
Moreover, to say to the unvaccinated, but it's in the name of the
0.99
03:07:11.360
greater good, is to make the utilitarian argument that we must
03:07:15.360
strive for the most good for the greatest number of people.
03:07:20.000
Aversion of utilitarianism is often the governing philosophy of
03:07:24.620
public health, but this raises a series of questions.
03:07:36.120
Should it be up to your 89-year-old grandmother, who has
03:07:39.380
little time left, to decide whether to spend the remaining years
03:07:43.060
of her life in total isolation or risk COVID but see her loved
03:07:48.140
Can you explain how you are helping the group when, by overriding
03:07:56.480
individual rights, you degrade the group as a whole by weakening each
03:08:03.300
Are you aware that the greatest evils in history have also always been
03:08:09.020
done in the name of that abstraction, the greater good?
03:08:12.440
Without first answering such questions, utilitarianism is but a shallow form of
03:08:20.060
arithmetic, one passing itself off as moral philosophy.
03:08:26.400
It is not irrational for people to insist that public discourse seriously engage
03:08:32.020
questions like these, and that any state compulsion related to people's bodies be
03:08:37.880
based on a flawless, airtight argument that is well communicated.
03:08:47.760
What, in rational political and public health terms, is the state's best justification for
03:08:54.640
mandating that people be injected en masse with a medicine?
03:08:58.280
The first justification for mandates is that they get us to herd immunity faster.
03:09:05.740
But, as Stanford epidemiologist Jay Bhattacharya and Arizona State University
03:09:14.740
We have good reason to doubt that if most everyone got vaccinated, we'd achieve herd
03:09:22.680
This is because, as we've seen, current vaccines are fading at about five months.
03:09:30.580
Even scientists who believe vaccines will help get us to herd immunity are divided on what
03:09:35.620
percentage of the population needs to be vaccinated to get us there.
03:09:40.060
Early in the pandemic, Fauci said we needed as low as 60 to 70 percent to reach herd immunity,
03:09:48.860
In December 2020, when the New York Times noticed Fauci was, quote,
03:09:54.260
quietly shifting the number upward, close quote,
03:09:57.600
he explained he was generating these percentages based on a mix of the science
03:10:01.720
and what he felt the public was ready to hear, admitting, quote,
03:10:06.100
We really don't know what the real number is, close quote.
03:10:10.100
President Biden recently said we could need 98 percent of Americans to be vaccinated to reach the goal.
03:10:15.720
Is there a scientific consensus behind the 98 percent claim?
03:10:22.580
In fact, a number of epidemiologists and infectious disease experts and officials dispute that we need a number anywhere near it.
03:10:30.720
Even those who are pro-mandate, like Dr. Monica Gandhi,
03:10:34.500
professor of clinical medicine at the University of California, San Francisco,
03:10:40.080
There is no evidence that we need that high of a vaccination rate, 98 percent,
03:10:50.580
have opted for a 74 percent vaccination rate as acceptable in order to lift certain restrictions,
03:10:56.660
especially if the most vulnerable are vaccinated at a higher rate.
03:11:01.460
Norway lifted all restrictions when it got to a 67 percent vaccination rate.
03:11:05.900
The point here is that the science is shifting, sometimes by the day.
03:11:13.420
It is reasonable for people who notice this to feel concerned about it,
03:11:17.700
and it is, at the very least, churlish to present them as merely irrational.
03:11:24.400
The second justification for mandates is that the state has an obligation to protect those who cannot protect themselves
03:11:31.340
from an infectious disease passed on to them by others,
03:11:35.900
i.e., the unvaccinated do not have a right to, quote,
03:11:39.900
recklessly endanger, close quote, and infect others.
03:11:46.340
it is hard to describe our current moment quite this way,
03:12:01.800
which is that vaccinated people do not, in fact, get comprehensive immunity,
03:12:07.040
as in the case, for example, of the polio or measles vaccines.
03:12:12.220
And on this, there is increasing scientific agreement.
03:12:17.720
We can't eradicate this mutating virus at this point.
03:12:25.200
which was eradicated because both the virus and the vaccines met a host of criteria.
03:12:34.360
who directed the WHO smallpox eradication campaign,
03:12:38.600
wrote that smallpox was uniquely suited for eradication
03:12:44.780
it was easy to identify cases in even the smallest villages by its distinctive awful rash,
03:12:54.220
The vaccine gave immunity that lasted a decade,
03:12:57.600
and natural immunity was easy to identify by the scars smallpox left.
03:13:08.340
He and five other scientists have since argued together that COVID is not going away
03:13:32.600
because it's growing in a dozen animal species,
03:13:36.460
and variants allow it to pop up in places that once beat it back.
03:13:41.140
Indeed, this is the reason that some scientists argue we need over 90% of people vaccinated
03:13:46.340
to keep America safe from a virus that will ping-pong around the unvaccinated parts of the globe for years.
03:13:55.680
So, if it's correct that we can't eradicate the virus
03:14:12.700
and we can't get lasting vaccine-induced herd immunity,
03:14:18.840
It would be, to use Monica Gandhi's phrase,
0.97
03:14:24.100
It would mean accepting some natural herd immunity
03:14:28.020
and putting more focus on saving lives by other means alongside vaccines,
03:14:34.060
including better outpatient medications to catch COVID early
03:14:43.940
and speeding delivery of vaccines to the highly vulnerable when an outbreak occurs
03:14:48.860
and prioritizing them over people who are already immune.
03:14:54.100
That the justifications originally given for mass public mandates are so weakened
03:15:12.820
lest its denial becomes yet another example of bungled trust.
03:15:22.600
we can return to the two kinds of public health systems,
03:15:34.320
but also continues to have significantly high rates of vaccine hesitancy and vaccine avoidance.
03:15:39.340
In contrast, Sweden is the leading example of a participatory public health model.
03:15:48.060
Sweden has one of the highest vaccination rates in the world
03:15:51.400
and the highest confidence in vaccines in the world,
03:15:57.180
Kulldorff, again, one of the world's leading epidemiologists
03:16:04.360
and consultant to the ACIP COVID-19 vaccine safety technical subgroup, notes,
03:16:10.480
If you want to have high confidence in vaccines,
03:16:27.500
If public health officials want the public to trust them,
03:16:32.040
public health officials also have to trust the public.
03:16:38.740
Just as pharma's indemnification removed its incentive to improve safety,
03:16:45.740
so do mandates remove public health's incentive
03:17:03.200
who is by my estimate one of the most effective persuaders of the vaccine hesitant.
03:17:18.100
felt that shaming anti-vaxxers was a good idea
0.99
03:17:28.300
I would rarely ever get emails from people saying,
1.00
03:17:32.080
hey, I was on the fence and you convinced me with your crazy rant about how stupid anti-vaxxers are.
1.00
03:17:49.700
Actually, we share the same goal, which is our kids should be healthy.
03:17:58.620
In fact, I should love you for trying to do the right thing for your kids.
03:18:06.120
Indeed, demonizing people for having doubts is the worst move we can make,
03:18:10.740
especially since there are serious problems in our drug and vaccine regulatory systems.
03:18:16.400
Some health organizations have become concerned enough about the effects of non-transparency
03:18:21.600
that a group has formed made up of the Leslie Dan Faculty of Pharmacy, University of Toronto,
03:18:27.960
Transparency International, and the WHO Collaborating Center for Governance,
03:18:33.400
Accountability, and Transparency in the Pharmaceutical Sector.
03:18:38.100
In a report released recently, the Alliance analyzed 86 registered clinical vaccine trials
03:18:50.160
have made their protocols available as of May 2021.
03:18:56.400
Scores of key decisions affecting the public were never made available.
03:19:00.920
The U.S. government should immediately give the public and outside scientists
03:19:10.000
and the minutes of meetings where major decisions are made on policies like mandates.
03:19:16.300
We need the kinds of transparency Peter Doshi has asked for
03:19:23.640
Doshi and some colleagues from Oxford have asked, for instance,
03:19:27.900
what the rationale was for the regulatory agencies to allow pharma companies
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not to choose hospitalization, death, or viral transmission as endpoints in the authorization studies.
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All these researchers are doing is being true to the motto of the Royal Society,
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the first national scientific institution ever established.
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Acknowledging severe problems in regulatory agencies or within pharma
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doesn't mean believing that everything that system produces is tainted
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or that all the people in those institutions are corrupt.
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In fact, it defends those with the most integrity
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because it is they who are the most frustrated by a system
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that requires radical restructuring and new leadership.
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we should want to rescue this extraordinary technology
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from the flawed and broken system of poor regulation,
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But now, many are choosing instead to replace this conversation
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about the system underlying the vaccine rollout
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who have been very invested in the success of the vaccines.
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Right now, with these vaccine mandates and vaccine passports,
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this coercive thing is turning a lot of people away from vaccines
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and not trusting them for very understandable reasons,
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Those who are pushing these vaccine mandates and vaccine passports,
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to me, they have done much more damage during this one year
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than the anti-vaxxers have done in two decades.
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they are the biggest anti-vaxxers that we have right now.
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Those congratulating the United States on mandates working
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Imagine a scenario already unfolding in Israel
0.98
03:21:56.460
in which regular boosters are deemed necessary.