The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast - 223. Cruelty

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00:00:30.000 Hey everyone, real quick before you skip, I want to talk to you about something serious

00:00:35.440 and important. Dr. Jordan Peterson has created a new series that could be a lifeline for those

00:00:40.740 battling depression and anxiety. We know how isolating and overwhelming these conditions

00:00:45.620 can be, and we wanted to take a moment to reach out to those listening who may be struggling.

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00:00:55.300 why you might be feeling this way in his new series. He provides a roadmap towards healing,

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00:01:04.540 forward. If you're suffering, please know you are not alone. There's hope, and there's

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00:01:15.580 on depression and anxiety. Let this be the first step towards the brighter future you deserve.

00:01:21.220 Welcome to Season 4, Episode 80 of the JBP Podcast. I'm Michaela Peterson. This is an intense episode.

00:01:32.280 Today's guest is Charles Joseph, the first native friend dad made in Canada, and unfortunately

00:01:37.700 one of its victims. This was a deeply emotional conversation. Charles talked about his experience

00:01:43.480 in residential schools, the way he blamed the world after getting out, rejecting religion,

00:01:48.540 eventually finding God again, dreams, the meaning of reconciliation, carving as a religious

00:01:54.520 experience, and more. Charles came to visit our house when I was a kid and told me some

00:01:59.060 of the things that's happened to him, and it's awful. This is one of those episodes everyone

00:02:03.160 should hear. If you enjoy this episode, or at least learn something, please subscribe.

00:02:08.740 And if you don't want to hear me read ads, please visit jordanbpeterson.supercast.com if you want

00:02:14.980 to sign up for an ad-free experience. It'll switch your regular podcast to the ad-free version

00:02:19.920 automatically on whatever platform you use. It's easy and just $10 a month or $100 a year.

00:02:26.080 This episode was sponsored by Ladder. We don't discuss life insurance nearly enough. I think

00:02:31.360 having a sort of safety blanket for the future is a good idea. It can't hurt at least. Ladder

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00:02:42.900 from your phone or laptop, Ladder's smart algorithms will tell you if you're approved

00:02:47.500 on the spot. If you prefer talking, their team of licensed agents doesn't work on commission,

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00:03:04.700 if you're instantly approved. That's L-A-D-D-E-R life.com slash jbp. Without further ado, here's Charles

00:03:13.460 Joseph. Hello, everybody. I'm pleased to be talking today with my friend and brother, Charles

00:03:37.860 Joseph. Charles is a member of the Kwakwaka'wa people who have lived for thousands of years

00:03:43.840 on what is now the west coast of the Canadian province of British Columbia. He's an accomplished

00:03:49.860 artist who works primarily in cedar carving and has produced a body of work within and extending

00:03:56.280 his native tradition, including a 50-foot totem pole which was installed in 2017 on Sherbrooke Street

00:04:04.180 in Montreal, in front of the Montreal Museum of Fine Art, and which stands there to this day.

00:04:11.240 I met Charles about 15 years ago when I attended a little craft fair in Comox on Vancouver Island

00:04:18.840 in British Columbia. I thought it would be all hippies and candles, and mostly it was, but my wife

00:04:24.880 Tammy convinced me to go, so I did. Charles had set up an exhibit there in a tent on the advice of his

00:04:31.200 wife, as it turned out, and he placed a couple of his carvings outside. I walked by and thought,

00:04:36.540 whoever did that is a real artist, not just a hippie, and went in. I told him how much I liked his

00:04:43.080 work. I always liked that style of work, that native western style of carving, ever since I was a kid, and

00:04:49.040 he showed me a photo album which contained an almost unbelievably large range of carving style and

00:04:55.180 motif. That day I bought a couple of small pieces, but we made an agreement that he would send me a carving

00:05:01.800 every six months round there, and I would buy it, and we just continued doing that for as long as we were

00:05:07.460 both happy with the arrangement, and that lasted for about 10 years before we started on a more major project

00:05:13.640 together. I'll tell you the rest of that story as we continue our discussion. As I got to know Charles over a few

00:05:20.560 years, eventually inviting him out to Toronto, he revealed more of his history, and we're going to

00:05:26.200 talk about that today, along with discussing his arts and traditions and sources of inspiration.

00:05:31.800 I need to tell all you people watching and listening that this is not going to be an easy conversation,

00:05:37.840 and I'm not saying that lightly. We're going to start by thanking the crew, Chris Wycott, that helped

00:05:43.660 Charles set up this interview from inside his carving tent at Sugar Cane, just outside of Williams Lake in

00:05:49.660 Central British Columbia. The property owner there is Daryl Sellers. Hey Charles. Hey Jared. Good to see you, man.

00:06:00.280 It's been a long time. Yeah, it's really good to see you. Yeah. Yeah, it has been a couple of years.

00:06:06.500 Yeah, so why don't you tell what you remember about his first meeting?

00:06:12.360 Oh, okay. It was in Comox, and an art show was called Nautical Days, and I got invited to go by him.

00:06:23.960 I was reluctant to go at first, because I wasn't sure what was going to happen there. I'd never been to it.

00:06:29.780 But I decided, okay, let's set up a table.

00:06:32.420 And at that time, the first couple of days, there was barely anybody reaching my table, so I brought my basset hounds.

00:06:44.340 And my basset hounds were there that day, and you and your wife showed up.

00:06:49.800 I said, could I pet your dogs?

00:06:52.520 And then you guys walked in and started looking at all the button blankets that were hanging behind me

00:06:58.220 and all the art that was on the table. And from that day on, we became close friends, and I love it.

00:07:09.120 Yeah, well, you told me something striking that day, or not long after that, I think.

00:07:14.700 I think you told me that I was the first white guy that you'd really made a friendship with.

00:07:19.940 Is that right? Yeah.

00:07:21.100 Yeah, the reason for that, Jordan, I was reluctant to have non-native friends because of my residential past.

00:07:33.200 I wasn't sure if I could trust anybody that way.

00:07:37.960 Yeah, well, you told me this story, and that's one of the things I want you to do today.

00:07:43.120 And that unfolded for us over a couple of years as we got to know each other,

00:07:47.280 and it was pretty damn harrowing to listen to, to say the least.

00:07:51.100 And so I thought one of the things we could do today is, well, I'd like you to tell your story right from the beginning.

00:07:57.440 You told me about your grandparents and about when you were young and when you were in the hospital.

00:08:03.020 People should know this.

00:08:05.340 Well, it started off as I grew up with my great-grandparents,

00:08:10.240 and my mother and father gave me to my great-grandparents on my father's side.

00:08:15.440 My great-great-grandparents were there,

00:08:18.320 and my great-grandparents were the ones that grew me up, looked after me.

00:08:23.000 And then when I got put into a residential school,

00:08:27.880 they were there trying to retrieve me back,

00:08:31.660 because they took me from the hospital, right?

00:08:33.720 Like, the residential school people grabbed me from the hospital

00:08:36.580 with three other kids that time.

00:08:38.840 I was five years old, just turning just about five or five,

00:08:43.580 five and a half years old when they grabbed me.

00:08:45.800 Yeah, well, you told me you'd spent quite a bit of time in the hospital

00:08:49.220 because you got sick with a number of things simultaneously,

00:08:52.140 and at that time you also didn't speak English.

00:08:55.540 No, no English at all,

00:08:56.820 and I got chicken pox, measles, and mumps, right?

00:08:59.980 All in the one after another,

00:09:02.520 so I was stuck in the incubator for quite a while.

00:09:04.840 First, they took me out of Alert Bay,

00:09:08.000 and I can't remember where it was,

00:09:10.380 you know, what hospital it was,

00:09:11.380 but I was in this plastic,

00:09:15.360 I guess it's an incubator,

00:09:17.920 plastic thing,

00:09:18.960 and there's no blankets on you or nothing

00:09:20.600 because your blankets would get stuck to me

00:09:23.020 or anything like that

00:09:24.900 when I had chicken pox and measles.

00:09:28.880 But when I was this young boy,

00:09:31.120 and there's nobody in the room with me.

00:09:33.800 No one seemed to be allowed to come around me.

00:09:37.340 But this young boy,

00:09:39.180 I always remember this story

00:09:41.340 because he's the first one

00:09:43.780 that gave me a toy to play with

00:09:45.460 in this incubator thing

00:09:46.520 because I had nothing to play with, right?

00:09:48.280 So he stacked up these books

00:09:51.300 to be able to reach the crib that I was in.

00:09:54.140 That's how small we were,

00:09:55.360 five years old.

00:09:56.960 So I was in this bed,

00:09:58.040 he stacked these books up

00:09:59.120 and threw a toy,

00:10:01.600 and he couldn't completely reach over,

00:10:03.420 so he threw it in

00:10:04.260 and then climbed back down off those books.

00:10:07.420 And I had that toy in my hand,

00:10:11.060 and I guess I was excited

00:10:14.080 just for that toy and him for doing that, right?

00:10:16.440 And I got to play with that toy

00:10:18.960 until I got to leave that hospital.

00:10:21.160 And then we ended up back

00:10:22.800 in Alert Bay Hospital,

00:10:24.180 and all of a sudden I got picked up

00:10:25.560 by this residential school.

00:10:27.940 Well, I think you told me

00:10:29.700 that you were on the dock

00:10:32.560 waiting for your grandparents,

00:10:34.060 your great-grandparents,

00:10:34.960 to pick you up.

00:10:36.380 No, no, no.

00:10:37.340 I was in the hospital

00:10:38.260 in the waiting room,

00:10:39.640 and they were down the dock

00:10:40.960 waiting for a taxi,

00:10:43.000 but they got there too late, right?

00:10:44.920 I was already picked up

00:10:46.000 by these people,

00:10:47.420 and I never knew them.

00:10:49.500 And I couldn't speak English

00:10:50.500 to ask what was going on

00:10:53.040 and where was I going.

00:10:55.840 So by the time that happened,

00:10:57.940 I was in this residential school,

00:10:59.840 and it was a big red brick building.

00:11:03.540 Now, as soon as I got inside those doors,

00:11:05.960 my life changed within seconds

00:11:08.320 because I got thrown to the floor

00:11:11.700 and I cut my hair,

00:11:15.160 took all my clothes off

00:11:16.980 and put these funny-looking clothes on me

00:11:19.260 and shoes four times too big for me.

00:11:24.800 And just a minute.

00:11:31.720 Yep.

00:11:33.220 And it still gets tough.

00:11:36.800 Yep.

00:11:37.980 And I was sitting on my bed.

00:11:40.400 They put me towards them.

00:11:42.160 I wasn't sure what was going on then

00:11:43.960 because I had these funny-looking clothes on

00:11:47.740 and I had a haircut

00:11:48.420 and they were treating me mean.

00:11:53.320 Three o'clock came around

00:11:54.600 and there was kids everywhere

00:11:56.720 hanging on to my bed

00:12:01.080 very tight wondering

00:12:03.320 what kind of hospital is this?

00:12:06.040 Why is this?

00:12:07.440 Why are they allowed to run around

00:12:08.940 and I'm not?

00:12:13.740 And these three boys were standing there

00:12:15.540 and there's a new kid,

00:12:16.480 there's a new kid.

00:12:17.800 And that was me.

00:12:20.800 And from that day on,

00:12:22.400 those three boys became my friends.

00:12:24.660 My blood brother

00:12:25.400 we grew up together in there

00:12:27.300 for quite a few years.

00:12:30.260 Instead of trying to look after

00:12:31.540 each other's back,

00:12:32.400 I guess you might say.

00:12:36.020 And they were teaching me

00:12:37.360 the ropes off of residency school

00:12:39.000 and what not to do

00:12:40.280 and what to do.

00:12:42.360 We still never caught on

00:12:43.500 because I couldn't speak English properly

00:12:45.120 so I couldn't really understand

00:12:47.400 what they were teaching me.

00:12:49.760 So I got whipped and strapped

00:12:51.540 and sewn in a closet quite a bit

00:12:53.420 because of that not knowing.

00:12:55.400 it got worse from there

00:13:02.260 just like I

00:13:03.080 got hurt by a nun

00:13:06.080 and then preacher

00:13:06.940 the following day

00:13:08.300 so you were confusing

00:13:09.980 throughout the years

00:13:12.400 about whether I should be

00:13:14.040 with a woman or a man

00:13:15.180 because of what they did to me.

00:13:16.400 And I never

00:13:20.660 I never

00:13:23.080 got to learn how to read

00:13:25.280 or write properly

00:13:26.200 or

00:13:26.580 You told me, Charles,

00:13:33.260 that you had a hard time

00:13:34.460 finding enough to eat

00:13:35.500 when you were in the residential school.

00:13:38.840 The

00:13:39.040 I'm only laughing

00:13:42.400 because it hurt

00:13:43.180 they

00:13:44.840 you could smell

00:13:47.780 all the good food

00:13:48.780 like corn,

00:13:49.480 the cob,

00:13:50.100 roast,

00:13:50.720 stuff like that

00:13:51.700 and

00:13:52.060 you'd never seen it.

00:13:54.100 It wasn't on your plate

00:13:55.560 but you could smell it

00:13:57.200 and made your stomach

00:13:58.320 growl really loud

00:13:59.460 because you

00:14:00.020 never got to eat like that.

00:14:04.240 Sometimes your porridge

00:14:05.740 would be moving

00:14:06.460 and you

00:14:06.960 did the same porridge

00:14:09.520 for days

00:14:11.320 until it's all gone

00:14:12.380 and they wouldn't change it

00:14:13.600 or renew your

00:14:14.900 big pot of porridge

00:14:15.920 until you ate it all.

00:14:17.240 And

00:14:20.580 sometimes your bread

00:14:23.300 should have been

00:14:25.600 thrown away

00:14:26.260 but they gave us

00:14:27.460 for sandwich bacon

00:14:28.560 and all you had

00:14:29.280 was peanut butter.

00:14:33.620 And

00:14:33.800 to this day

00:14:37.600 I have a hard time

00:14:38.380 with pickles

00:14:38.920 and peanut butter

00:14:39.660 because that's all you got

00:14:40.660 for your sandwich

00:14:41.660 and your lunch.

00:14:43.860 There's no apple

00:14:44.820 or oranges

00:14:45.360 or juice.

00:14:46.320 You know

00:14:46.380 it was just

00:14:46.920 that

00:14:47.720 and water

00:14:48.340 and the water

00:14:49.420 came out of the tap

00:14:50.520 from the school.

00:14:54.160 You said

00:14:54.920 you used to forage

00:14:55.960 with some of the kids

00:14:56.800 for eggs

00:14:57.400 and so forth

00:14:58.660 and try to cook them

00:14:59.420 under the hot water taps.

00:15:01.380 We used to crawl around

00:15:02.960 on the beach

00:15:03.700 and sneak out

00:15:04.740 at night

00:15:05.200 and go down

00:15:05.720 and get mussels

00:15:06.440 off the beach.

00:15:07.320 I don't know why

00:15:08.020 I knew that

00:15:08.620 but we'd get

00:15:09.880 these little mussels

00:15:10.800 and then we'd

00:15:12.160 put them in our

00:15:15.100 t-shirt

00:15:15.560 and fold our t-shirt

00:15:16.620 up like a bag

00:15:17.440 so we could carry

00:15:18.260 it in

00:15:18.620 and sneak back

00:15:19.460 in with it

00:15:19.920 and then on the spring

00:15:21.820 we'd go

00:15:22.940 into the forest

00:15:23.980 and we'd sneak

00:15:24.720 into the forest

00:15:25.900 and

00:15:27.200 we'd take

00:15:30.540 robin's eggs

00:15:31.360 and bring them

00:15:33.260 back to the dormitory

00:15:34.740 and boil it

00:15:36.500 under our taps

00:15:37.580 under hot water

00:15:38.500 and

00:15:38.780 little did we know

00:15:40.860 that the mussels

00:15:41.720 smelt

00:15:42.260 you could smell

00:15:43.140 it throughout

00:15:43.600 the dorm

00:15:44.080 so we got

00:15:44.660 caught doing that

00:15:45.900 right

00:15:46.100 and they wanted

00:15:46.500 to know

00:15:46.820 where's the shells

00:15:47.580 where's that food

00:15:48.460 you know

00:15:48.860 we all

00:15:51.640 the whole

00:15:52.420 dormitory

00:15:53.420 took a licking

00:15:54.480 that time

00:15:54.960 we got

00:15:55.220 a strapping

00:15:56.540 and a whipping

00:15:57.140 because no one

00:15:57.920 would own up

00:15:58.700 because they knew

00:15:59.440 we were feeding

00:16:00.060 someone hungry

00:16:00.880 that day

00:16:01.340 so we all

00:16:02.440 took a beating

00:16:03.280 for it

00:16:04.500 quite a bit

00:16:06.280 at times

00:16:06.780 you talked

00:16:08.740 about the closet

00:16:09.680 oh

00:16:11.820 when

00:16:18.440 when

00:16:18.940 when they were

00:16:22.940 done with

00:16:23.620 when they were

00:16:35.820 done with

00:16:36.180 them

00:16:36.580 I'm asking

00:16:39.920 you

00:16:40.280 they were

00:16:41.860 sewing in

00:16:42.260 a closet

00:16:42.680 for five

00:16:43.320 days

00:16:44.360 dark closet

00:16:46.020 where you can't

00:16:47.380 stand

00:16:47.740 or sit down

00:16:48.520 properly

00:16:48.960 or lay down

00:16:49.520 you're just

00:16:49.880 sitting there

00:16:50.320 with your legs

00:16:50.800 bent up

00:16:51.920 to your chest

00:16:52.500 it's really

00:16:54.500 dark in there

00:16:55.460 and when

00:16:57.940 they

00:16:58.100 when they

00:16:59.960 pull you out

00:17:00.440 of the closet

00:17:01.020 it's so bright

00:17:01.940 out

00:17:02.160 that you're

00:17:02.780 black out

00:17:03.380 for a while

00:17:03.800 and you

00:17:06.380 wake up

00:17:06.820 on the

00:17:07.100 floor

00:17:07.300 getting

00:17:07.600 kicked

00:17:07.940 around

00:17:08.280 get up

00:17:10.880 do your

00:17:11.300 chores

00:17:11.660 or you'll

00:17:13.540 get put

00:17:13.920 back in

00:17:14.380 there again

00:17:14.920 and you're

00:17:16.780 waking up

00:17:17.360 from being

00:17:18.600 kicked

00:17:19.020 around

00:17:19.380 and you

00:17:19.980 don't even

00:17:20.400 know what

00:17:20.680 your chores

00:17:21.160 are because

00:17:21.560 you're blacked

00:17:22.220 out when

00:17:22.520 they're telling

00:17:23.320 you what

00:17:23.780 they want

00:17:24.180 you to do

00:17:24.660 so you get

00:17:27.200 into more

00:17:27.720 trouble because

00:17:28.360 you don't

00:17:28.680 know where

00:17:29.140 your chores

00:17:29.660 are what

00:17:30.060 you're supposed

00:17:30.500 to be doing

00:17:31.140 how long

00:17:33.420 were you

00:17:33.720 in the

00:17:34.040 school

00:17:34.420 i was in

00:17:36.360 there for

00:17:36.720 nine years

00:17:37.520 three four

00:17:42.140 years of it

00:17:42.820 you weren't

00:17:43.180 allowed to

00:17:43.560 go home

00:17:44.000 what did

00:17:47.900 you think

00:17:48.320 about your

00:17:48.840 family not

00:17:49.560 being there

00:17:50.180 i thought

00:17:53.640 i never

00:17:55.040 really thought

00:17:55.780 more of them

00:17:56.880 i thought

00:17:57.340 what did i

00:17:57.940 do so wrong

00:17:58.720 that they

00:17:59.140 left me

00:17:59.620 there i

00:18:02.420 couldn't

00:18:02.680 figure out

00:18:03.080 what was

00:18:03.520 what was

00:18:04.120 it that i

00:18:04.580 did that

00:18:05.140 put me

00:18:05.880 in such

00:18:06.300 a bad

00:18:06.660 place like

00:18:07.160 this and

00:18:10.320 then witnessing

00:18:12.160 probably the

00:18:16.120 third time

00:18:16.680 they tried to

00:18:17.220 come around

00:18:17.800 to come and

00:18:18.640 get me and

00:18:19.320 i seen their

00:18:20.020 rcmp

00:18:20.580 escorting them

00:18:21.440 away from

00:18:22.000 the residential

00:18:23.480 area and

00:18:27.000 escorting them

00:18:27.640 right down

00:18:28.060 to the dock

00:18:28.720 i told them

00:18:32.320 if they came

00:18:32.860 back they

00:18:33.360 were going

00:18:33.680 to be put

00:18:34.180 to jail

00:18:34.720 come back

00:18:35.580 and try

00:18:35.900 to get

00:18:36.160 me so

00:18:37.540 they never

00:18:38.020 ever came

00:18:38.520 back

00:18:38.900 so i seen

00:18:41.920 that so

00:18:42.480 before i seen

00:18:43.640 that i was

00:18:44.260 blaming my

00:18:45.120 grandparents and

00:18:46.000 my dad because

00:18:46.760 that's who i

00:18:47.220 grew up

00:18:47.520 with i was

00:18:49.640 mad at them

00:18:50.260 for leaving

00:18:50.740 me in such

00:18:51.480 an awful

00:18:51.980 place and

00:18:52.900 then wondering

00:18:53.480 why they

00:18:54.060 left me

00:18:54.500 there

00:18:54.740 with the

00:18:59.300 help of my

00:19:02.680 older relatives

00:19:03.680 that were

00:19:04.140 there made

00:19:05.320 it a little

00:19:05.680 bit easier

00:19:06.240 at the end

00:19:06.720 because then

00:19:07.240 some of the

00:19:08.060 native people

00:19:08.880 started getting

00:19:10.900 hired to work

00:19:12.040 there at the

00:19:12.720 end of the

00:19:13.360 one before it

00:19:14.160 closed

00:19:14.640 but before

00:19:18.600 all that

00:19:19.160 there was

00:19:19.540 pretty

00:19:19.880 you start to

00:19:22.080 wonder today

00:19:22.920 where do they

00:19:24.320 find all these

00:19:25.120 mean people

00:19:25.840 you know

00:19:26.320 to be like

00:19:27.080 that

00:19:27.320 and then the

00:19:31.280 other one is

00:19:32.040 how could i

00:19:32.980 be

00:19:33.620 like them

00:19:35.960 as a

00:19:37.960 supposedly a

00:19:39.680 christian or

00:19:40.380 whatever

00:19:40.700 and then

00:19:42.300 treat people

00:19:43.300 like that

00:19:44.100 i'm sort

00:19:49.180 of more

00:19:49.500 drawn away

00:19:50.280 from that

00:19:50.800 than i want

00:19:52.100 to know

00:19:52.440 more about

00:19:53.000 it because

00:19:53.540 of those

00:19:53.980 reasons

00:19:54.460 i don't

00:19:57.280 believe in

00:19:57.680 god i don't

00:19:58.280 believe in

00:19:58.820 jesus i don't

00:19:59.700 believe in

00:20:00.120 it because

00:20:00.580 if there was

00:20:00.960 such a thing

00:20:01.620 these things

00:20:02.140 wouldn't happen

00:20:02.720 to us as

00:20:03.180 kids

00:20:03.440 you said

00:20:07.500 recently

00:20:07.980 when we

00:20:09.640 talked that

00:20:10.480 there's been

00:20:11.380 news in

00:20:12.700 canada about

00:20:13.520 unmarked

00:20:14.080 graves found

00:20:15.040 outside

00:20:15.680 residential

00:20:16.200 schools again

00:20:17.020 and you

00:20:18.120 said that

00:20:18.660 although you'd

00:20:19.420 recovered from

00:20:20.100 a lot of

00:20:20.480 this to some

00:20:21.020 degree and

00:20:21.520 weren't having

00:20:22.240 nightmares about

00:20:23.000 it anymore

00:20:23.460 that that sort

00:20:24.120 of brought it

00:20:24.580 back and

00:20:25.220 then you told

00:20:25.880 me some pretty

00:20:26.400 terrible stories

00:20:27.240 about that

00:20:27.880 situation too

00:20:28.940 when i met

00:20:32.400 you jordan

00:20:33.200 and a couple

00:20:34.660 other friends

00:20:35.580 i started

00:20:37.820 working on

00:20:38.820 things because

00:20:39.340 i trusted in

00:20:40.220 it i trusted

00:20:41.000 in the words

00:20:41.780 that you were

00:20:42.360 you were asking

00:20:43.320 me to do

00:20:44.100 i trusted

00:20:46.240 that because

00:20:48.000 we were friends

00:20:48.860 for a long

00:20:49.400 time and

00:20:50.060 i started

00:20:53.960 working on

00:20:54.700 myself

00:20:55.240 without going

00:20:58.260 to a

00:20:59.280 treatment

00:21:00.640 center or

00:21:01.760 places like

00:21:02.360 that because

00:21:03.320 i would do

00:21:03.800 things culturally

00:21:04.720 and i

00:21:07.000 remembered my

00:21:07.720 grandparents

00:21:08.240 teachings and

00:21:09.400 cultural forms

00:21:10.400 that it

00:21:19.180 made it

00:21:19.580 easier for

00:21:20.260 me to live

00:21:20.840 my life

00:21:21.400 without feeling

00:21:22.560 like that

00:21:23.000 because stinking

00:21:23.900 thinking

00:21:24.340 tricking

00:21:24.860 kill a

00:21:25.260 person

00:21:25.540 inside out

00:21:28.260 you won't

00:21:28.780 even know

00:21:29.200 that i'm

00:21:29.680 hurting

00:21:29.960 because as

00:21:32.860 a as a

00:21:35.820 child coming

00:21:36.520 out of

00:21:36.840 st.

00:21:37.100 mike's you

00:21:37.500 start to

00:21:37.960 learn how

00:21:38.420 to cover

00:21:39.000 up those

00:21:39.560 kind of

00:21:39.880 pains

00:21:40.240 and cover

00:21:40.860 up your

00:21:41.240 tears

00:21:41.560 because

00:21:42.100 you don't

00:21:44.340 want people

00:21:44.920 to know

00:21:46.560 because you

00:21:48.280 feel ashamed

00:21:49.080 of yourself

00:21:49.720 and you

00:21:50.220 dislike

00:21:51.560 yourself

00:21:52.120 for what

00:21:52.500 happened

00:21:52.900 well you

00:21:54.960 told me

00:21:55.620 you told me

00:21:56.280 a story about

00:21:57.040 what was done

00:21:57.700 with bodies

00:21:58.380 at st.

00:21:59.040 mike's

00:21:59.440 and the

00:22:00.860 incinerator

00:22:01.560 you know

00:22:04.080 jordan they

00:22:04.840 would they

00:22:05.360 would wrap

00:22:05.880 these kids

00:22:06.480 up

00:22:06.760 whether they

00:22:08.440 died from

00:22:09.220 hep c

00:22:12.100 or tuberculosis

00:22:14.000 and wrap

00:22:16.660 them up

00:22:17.060 and they

00:22:17.440 would put

00:22:18.240 them inside

00:22:18.920 this big

00:22:19.460 thing called

00:22:20.260 the incinerator

00:22:21.140 there's a big

00:22:22.440 drum really

00:22:23.380 huge drum

00:22:24.280 about six

00:22:25.900 feet tall

00:22:26.700 maybe taller

00:22:29.540 and you'd fill

00:22:31.800 that up with

00:22:32.500 paper and

00:22:33.380 put that

00:22:34.280 that wrapped

00:22:35.740 child in

00:22:36.500 there

00:22:36.760 and they

00:22:45.780 would make

00:22:46.180 us light

00:22:46.840 that fire

00:22:47.480 and the

00:22:48.700 whole town

00:22:50.040 would stink

00:22:50.680 the whole

00:22:51.100 place of

00:22:51.800 that area

00:22:52.440 would stink

00:22:53.140 it's

00:22:55.300 no

00:22:55.660 smell the

00:22:58.220 body burning

00:22:58.940 charles

00:23:02.460 you're

00:23:02.820 you're just

00:23:03.400 you must

00:23:04.020 be how

00:23:04.380 old are

00:23:04.640 you now

00:23:04.980 you're 60

00:23:05.600 something

00:23:06.020 how old

00:23:06.620 are you

00:23:06.900 62

00:23:08.540 so you

00:23:09.680 had a long

00:23:10.120 time to

00:23:10.540 think about

00:23:11.020 this charles

00:23:11.680 why in the

00:23:12.280 world do

00:23:12.660 you think

00:23:12.980 someone would

00:23:13.500 do something

00:23:13.980 like that

00:23:14.680 do you

00:23:18.400 do you

00:23:18.820 have any

00:23:19.200 that comes

00:23:20.360 from jordan

00:23:21.080 i've never

00:23:21.580 seen or

00:23:22.520 often thought

00:23:23.400 about that

00:23:24.020 there were

00:23:24.600 where does

00:23:25.740 that much

00:23:26.240 anger and

00:23:27.060 pain come

00:23:27.780 how does

00:23:28.520 it grow

00:23:29.080 like that

00:23:29.680 you know

00:23:30.020 and then

00:23:33.140 i wonder

00:23:33.940 how come

00:23:36.020 these people

00:23:37.360 never got

00:23:38.280 put in

00:23:38.840 jail for

00:23:39.300 what they

00:23:39.680 did wrong

00:23:40.200 you know

00:23:42.580 if that was

00:23:43.220 me doing

00:23:43.920 that i'd be

00:23:44.580 in jail for

00:23:45.160 a long

00:23:45.480 time

00:23:45.860 or condemned

00:23:48.960 from the

00:23:49.400 world you

00:23:49.820 can't get a

00:23:50.380 job and

00:23:50.880 you'd be on

00:23:51.460 tv saying

00:23:52.300 oh this

00:23:52.640 guy's a

00:23:53.140 rapist or

00:23:53.840 molester but

00:23:54.700 these guys

00:23:55.880 that hurt us

00:23:56.540 not one of

00:23:57.160 them are on

00:23:57.620 pictures on

00:23:58.260 that stuff

00:23:58.720 not one of

00:23:59.860 them being

00:24:00.240 shown that

00:24:00.920 these are

00:24:01.360 the guys

00:24:01.760 that did

00:24:02.140 that through

00:24:02.580 christianity

00:24:03.340 and hiding

00:24:05.540 behind that

00:24:06.280 skirt

00:24:06.600 so that's

00:24:10.560 the things i

00:24:11.220 think about

00:24:11.720 jordan how

00:24:12.200 come they

00:24:12.680 never got

00:24:13.300 charged for

00:24:13.940 that how

00:24:14.260 come they

00:24:14.700 didn't do

00:24:15.120 time

00:24:15.540 here we are

00:24:18.140 suffering for

00:24:18.820 the rest of

00:24:19.260 our lives

00:24:19.700 and then

00:24:22.300 when you

00:24:23.200 talk about

00:24:23.860 what happened

00:24:24.560 like these

00:24:25.100 bodies that

00:24:26.000 they're finding

00:24:26.500 today they're

00:24:27.260 nobody

00:24:27.640 believed us

00:24:28.500 we were

00:24:31.220 called

00:24:31.520 liars that

00:24:32.180 doesn't

00:24:32.560 happen

00:24:32.960 people like

00:24:33.820 that don't

00:24:34.280 do that

00:24:34.780 you know

00:24:38.180 and that's

00:24:38.780 the truth is

00:24:40.100 coming out

00:24:40.620 slowly but

00:24:41.360 there's more

00:24:41.940 to it you

00:24:42.620 know there's

00:24:43.040 going to be

00:24:43.420 more to

00:24:43.940 it

00:24:44.840 like how

00:24:48.000 many of

00:24:48.480 those how

00:24:49.500 many of

00:24:49.860 these people

00:24:50.620 young ladies

00:24:52.500 that were in

00:24:53.280 there that

00:24:53.680 had children

00:24:54.360 from them

00:24:56.120 being raped

00:24:56.900 and molested

00:24:57.500 in there

00:24:57.900 you know

00:24:58.520 those are the

00:24:59.400 things that

00:24:59.820 still have to

00:25:00.440 resurface too

00:25:01.320 none of that

00:25:03.020 has been

00:25:03.420 brought up

00:25:04.200 and then

00:25:06.160 having

00:25:06.660 never ever

00:25:08.940 to see that

00:25:09.540 child

00:25:09.960 you know

00:25:10.840 those are the

00:25:13.300 things that

00:25:13.820 still haven't

00:25:15.520 surfaced and

00:25:16.160 why they're not

00:25:16.820 doing that

00:25:17.360 why they're not

00:25:18.060 working with

00:25:18.700 these women

00:25:19.100 that are hurt

00:25:19.780 so badly

00:25:20.400 as a child

00:25:23.380 so you look

00:25:28.020 at the

00:25:28.420 reserves

00:25:29.000 we all walk

00:25:30.260 around and

00:25:30.780 we've got

00:25:31.240 children having

00:25:32.080 children because

00:25:32.940 we don't know

00:25:33.600 the difference

00:25:34.280 from what

00:25:34.760 happened as

00:25:35.380 the result of

00:25:36.940 this

00:25:37.200 you got out

00:25:41.660 of there when

00:25:42.120 you were about

00:25:42.600 13

00:25:43.200 yep

00:25:45.780 and you were

00:25:47.240 angry for a

00:25:48.520 long time

00:25:49.160 yeah

00:25:51.740 because I

00:25:52.200 blamed the

00:25:52.880 world after

00:25:53.480 I didn't

00:25:53.900 know who

00:25:54.260 to blame

00:25:54.660 so I

00:25:55.080 blamed

00:25:55.360 everybody

00:25:56.000 mostly

00:25:58.360 white people

00:25:59.180 you told

00:26:03.520 me about

00:26:04.200 going back

00:26:04.840 to see your

00:26:05.380 grandparents

00:26:05.920 and recovering

00:26:07.280 some of what

00:26:08.260 you had when

00:26:09.020 you were a

00:26:09.440 kid

00:26:09.660 because you

00:26:11.260 spent a lot

00:26:11.800 of time with

00:26:12.300 them when

00:26:12.580 you were

00:26:12.840 young

00:26:13.120 the best

00:26:16.060 thing ever

00:26:16.480 happened to

00:26:17.000 me

00:26:17.200 Jordan was

00:26:18.200 having my

00:26:18.860 great

00:26:19.160 grandparents

00:26:19.720 alive when

00:26:20.600 I went

00:26:21.160 home for

00:26:22.700 forever

00:26:23.280 they were

00:26:25.000 there in

00:26:25.600 open arms

00:26:26.360 crying

00:26:27.020 it sort of

00:26:28.980 scared me

00:26:29.500 because I

00:26:29.820 wasn't sure

00:26:30.280 what they

00:26:30.600 were crying

00:26:31.040 for

00:26:31.360 but they

00:26:32.980 were crying

00:26:33.640 in happiness

00:26:34.320 that I got

00:26:34.960 to go home

00:26:35.600 and stay

00:26:35.980 home

00:26:36.320 so I wasn't

00:26:38.520 allowed to go

00:26:39.220 inside the

00:26:39.820 house

00:26:40.120 they stopped

00:26:41.380 me at the

00:26:41.820 doorway

00:26:42.160 and said

00:26:42.540 wait

00:26:42.860 which means

00:26:46.120 wait

00:26:46.440 so I

00:26:47.520 stood there

00:26:48.120 and they

00:26:49.900 asked me

00:26:50.300 if I still

00:26:50.720 know how

00:26:51.020 to speak

00:26:51.460 our language

00:26:52.100 and I

00:26:52.800 answered

00:26:53.180 them

00:26:53.480 and how

00:26:56.520 I answered

00:26:56.940 them was

00:26:57.340 eh

00:26:57.700 and that

00:26:58.340 means yes

00:26:58.900 and so my

00:27:01.960 grandfather

00:27:02.320 said

00:27:02.700 listen to

00:27:04.080 me

00:27:04.340 we're going

00:27:06.700 I'm going

00:27:07.160 to the

00:27:07.540 forest

00:27:08.000 and you're

00:27:10.720 going to

00:27:10.920 go learn

00:27:11.540 who you

00:27:12.040 really are

00:27:12.580 not what

00:27:13.100 they thought

00:27:13.580 you should

00:27:14.120 be

00:27:14.460 I was

00:27:20.700 really scared

00:27:21.300 wasn't sure

00:27:22.940 what was

00:27:23.320 going to

00:27:23.580 happen

00:27:23.940 so as we

00:27:25.980 were entering

00:27:26.620 into the

00:27:27.280 forest my

00:27:27.980 grandfather

00:27:28.440 asked me

00:27:29.220 to take

00:27:29.660 my residence

00:27:30.440 to close

00:27:30.980 off and

00:27:31.480 leave it

00:27:32.020 right there

00:27:32.800 wherever it

00:27:34.320 comes off

00:27:34.860 so as

00:27:37.300 we were

00:27:37.460 heading up

00:27:38.160 this creek

00:27:38.980 behind

00:27:41.640 Sam

00:27:43.580 Charlie's

00:27:44.280 house

00:27:44.600 Siki's

00:27:45.600 house

00:27:45.920 chief

00:27:48.600 there was

00:27:50.040 a creek

00:27:50.580 behind our

00:27:51.200 house and

00:27:51.620 it went up

00:27:52.140 towards

00:27:52.660 back of

00:27:53.800 our reserve

00:27:54.620 and there's

00:27:56.680 these four

00:27:57.380 big trees

00:27:58.080 that were

00:27:58.420 there in

00:27:58.840 a spot

00:27:59.240 that sit

00:27:59.640 in the

00:27:59.880 middle of

00:28:00.260 these trees

00:28:00.820 he brought

00:28:03.220 me there

00:28:03.680 and he

00:28:04.500 sat me

00:28:05.020 down and

00:28:05.540 put a

00:28:05.980 blanket

00:28:06.340 on me

00:28:06.860 it wasn't

00:28:09.700 any blanket

00:28:12.140 it was his

00:28:12.800 chief's blanket

00:28:13.800 with buttons

00:28:16.280 on there

00:28:16.860 and a story

00:28:18.320 that told

00:28:19.060 his story

00:28:19.860 of what he

00:28:21.880 had pressed

00:28:22.900 on his

00:28:23.400 treasure

00:28:24.120 on his

00:28:24.980 blanket

00:28:25.340 so he was

00:28:27.380 really proud

00:28:27.960 to wear that

00:28:28.620 and he

00:28:31.080 sat there

00:28:31.780 and he

00:28:32.040 gave me

00:28:32.880 a pebble

00:28:34.940 a feather

00:28:36.980 and a

00:28:38.220 rattle

00:28:38.620 and I

00:28:42.680 sat there

00:28:43.240 and I

00:28:43.820 said

00:28:44.120 what are

00:28:44.720 these

00:28:45.020 for

00:28:45.340 and my

00:28:46.820 grandfather

00:28:47.200 says you

00:28:47.800 can't leave

00:28:48.420 this area

00:28:49.260 at night

00:28:49.700 time you've

00:28:50.180 got to stay

00:28:50.740 here no

00:28:51.080 matter what

00:28:51.620 if there's

00:28:53.760 ghosts or

00:28:54.660 things that

00:28:55.220 scare you

00:28:55.820 through the

00:28:56.160 night

00:28:56.400 you use

00:28:58.680 your feather

00:28:59.160 and you

00:28:59.700 rattle and

00:29:00.280 you pray

00:29:00.720 with your

00:29:01.520 feather

00:29:01.820 you ask

00:29:04.600 your spirit

00:29:05.080 people to

00:29:05.640 come watch

00:29:06.120 over you

00:29:06.620 and you

00:29:09.960 use your

00:29:10.460 rattle to

00:29:11.060 prepare the

00:29:11.800 ground so

00:29:12.440 that the

00:29:12.800 spirit people

00:29:13.440 can come

00:29:14.000 and look

00:29:14.320 after their

00:29:14.980 circle

00:29:15.380 where you're

00:29:16.140 at

00:29:16.400 when you

00:29:19.640 get dry

00:29:20.280 son

00:29:20.640 don't leave

00:29:22.280 the circle

00:29:22.780 put that

00:29:25.420 pebble in

00:29:26.000 your mouth

00:29:26.380 it'll help

00:29:28.040 your mouth

00:29:28.500 stay moist

00:29:29.040 until you're

00:29:29.580 done with

00:29:29.900 what you're

00:29:30.200 doing

00:29:30.480 until you're

00:29:31.960 allowed to

00:29:32.380 leave that

00:29:32.800 area and

00:29:33.280 grab your

00:29:33.740 bath and

00:29:34.380 have a

00:29:34.740 drink of

00:29:35.080 water

00:29:35.340 so I

00:29:39.520 did those

00:29:39.960 things and

00:29:40.440 then

00:29:40.780 after about

00:29:44.540 the fourth

00:29:45.020 day

00:29:45.420 these trees

00:29:46.460 were talking

00:29:47.040 to me

00:29:47.520 it was

00:29:52.880 amazing that

00:29:53.760 these trees

00:29:54.400 were talking

00:29:54.940 to me in

00:29:55.420 our language

00:29:56.140 and you

00:29:58.220 were

00:29:58.340 the amazing

00:30:02.000 thing was

00:30:02.660 that when

00:30:03.180 you look at

00:30:03.940 the 12

00:30:05.040 step book

00:30:05.740 today that

00:30:06.480 they use

00:30:07.040 for treatment

00:30:08.120 centers

00:30:08.720 they were

00:30:11.000 doing it

00:30:11.660 in our

00:30:11.960 language but

00:30:12.680 in force

00:30:13.520 not

00:30:15.120 one step

00:30:16.080 but in

00:30:16.700 force

00:30:17.160 to me

00:30:18.260 and then

00:30:19.960 feeding me

00:30:21.320 positive

00:30:21.920 affirmation

00:30:22.880 about who

00:30:23.540 I am

00:30:24.000 and then

00:30:26.040 nurturing

00:30:26.960 that little

00:30:27.720 boy

00:30:28.140 at first I

00:30:31.900 couldn't

00:30:32.140 understand what

00:30:32.900 little boy

00:30:33.420 and that

00:30:33.860 little boy

00:30:34.520 was me

00:30:35.060 when I got

00:30:36.660 first put in

00:30:37.500 St. Mike's

00:30:38.120 and then

00:30:40.580 worked my

00:30:42.680 way up to

00:30:43.480 being able

00:30:44.740 to handle

00:30:46.160 what was

00:30:46.680 going on

00:30:47.140 in my

00:30:47.380 life without

00:30:47.980 hurting

00:30:48.580 myself

00:30:49.080 and

00:30:49.340 watching

00:30:52.660 other people

00:30:54.120 suffer the

00:30:54.740 way they

00:30:55.080 suffer today

00:30:55.760 knowing that

00:30:57.120 there's a

00:30:58.580 little bit of

00:31:00.040 comfort that

00:31:00.660 you could

00:31:01.000 find

00:31:01.320 to stop

00:31:03.040 that stinking

00:31:03.840 thinking for

00:31:04.620 all right

00:31:05.040 Charles did

00:31:06.380 you tell me

00:31:07.080 that when

00:31:07.940 that was

00:31:08.580 happening to

00:31:09.080 you out in

00:31:09.400 the forest

00:31:09.800 that your

00:31:10.860 great-grandfather

00:31:11.700 had got

00:31:12.260 people to

00:31:13.320 be behind

00:31:14.220 the trees

00:31:14.760 and talk

00:31:15.340 to you

00:31:15.760 yeah but I

00:31:18.800 thought their

00:31:19.440 trees were

00:31:20.100 talking to me

00:31:20.860 but when I

00:31:22.560 finally got up

00:31:23.660 and walked

00:31:24.220 out to go

00:31:24.760 walk home

00:31:25.440 these people

00:31:27.100 were behind

00:31:27.820 me and I

00:31:28.420 looked back

00:31:29.080 and there's

00:31:29.640 these chiefs

00:31:30.720 standing there

00:31:31.480 behind these

00:31:32.100 trees and

00:31:33.700 they're nodding

00:31:34.440 their head

00:31:34.900 and that

00:31:36.620 means it's

00:31:37.480 okay to

00:31:38.040 leave the

00:31:38.480 circle

00:31:38.860 again then

00:31:40.440 you can go

00:31:42.140 home now

00:31:42.720 tell your

00:31:45.400 grandparents

00:31:45.980 what you've

00:31:46.580 learned and

00:31:47.000 how you feel

00:31:47.620 but when I

00:31:49.740 was walking

00:31:50.340 I felt like

00:31:51.100 I was on

00:31:51.740 clouds

00:31:52.560 walking on

00:31:54.760 clouds because

00:31:55.280 a lot of

00:31:55.760 that pain

00:31:57.720 and pressure

00:31:58.340 that was

00:31:59.740 inside me

00:32:00.500 felt like

00:32:01.040 some of it

00:32:01.820 disappeared

00:32:02.880 through them

00:32:04.940 through the

00:32:06.120 positive

00:32:06.540 affirmation

00:32:07.440 and then

00:32:09.380 what were

00:32:09.640 they telling

00:32:10.120 you what

00:32:10.760 were they

00:32:11.060 telling you

00:32:11.500 why did

00:32:11.960 it help

00:32:12.460 because they

00:32:14.360 brought me

00:32:14.780 to my

00:32:15.200 childhood

00:32:15.680 they made

00:32:17.020 me envision

00:32:17.800 me myself

00:32:18.580 standing there

00:32:19.480 being hugged

00:32:21.020 and nurtured

00:32:21.620 and looked

00:32:22.080 after where

00:32:22.700 I should

00:32:23.040 have been

00:32:23.860 and they

00:32:24.820 were speaking

00:32:25.420 in our

00:32:25.800 language in

00:32:26.520 that form

00:32:27.060 when you

00:32:29.700 speak in

00:32:30.200 our language

00:32:30.860 Jordan

00:32:31.280 it's

00:32:31.700 different

00:32:33.740 it's like

00:32:34.320 it means

00:32:35.280 more than

00:32:36.540 just a

00:32:37.080 sentence

00:32:37.440 itself

00:32:37.960 it means

00:32:38.520 more than

00:32:39.240 that

00:32:39.420 like when

00:32:39.880 you're

00:32:40.120 when you're

00:32:42.260 sitting there

00:32:42.780 listening to

00:32:43.460 them tell

00:32:44.080 you there's

00:32:45.040 good things

00:32:45.860 about yourself

00:32:46.600 you start to

00:32:48.540 look at what

00:32:49.100 they're saying

00:32:49.700 and what the

00:32:50.220 other guy's

00:32:50.640 saying

00:32:50.900 the weather

00:32:52.260 is like

00:32:52.640 this

00:32:53.040 it's nice

00:32:54.440 out

00:32:54.840 the smells

00:32:56.460 in the

00:32:56.820 forest

00:32:57.220 who you

00:32:58.480 are

00:32:58.840 what's

00:32:59.800 your native

00:33:00.280 name

00:33:00.660 all that

00:33:02.240 gave me

00:33:03.160 strength

00:33:03.840 for some

00:33:04.280 reason

00:33:04.580 and then

00:33:05.100 they started

00:33:05.460 talking about

00:33:06.380 who I

00:33:07.680 should be

00:33:08.220 today

00:33:08.580 what

00:33:08.920 you should

00:33:10.080 be learning

00:33:10.640 what you

00:33:11.160 should do

00:33:11.560 to make

00:33:12.020 yourself

00:33:12.440 feel more

00:33:13.940 comfortable

00:33:14.460 with life

00:33:15.000 and to

00:33:18.600 meditate

00:33:20.960 to the

00:33:21.580 spirit

00:33:21.880 people

00:33:22.380 about

00:33:22.900 strength

00:33:23.660 and be

00:33:24.140 able to

00:33:24.440 to learn

00:33:24.940 from

00:33:25.420 what it

00:33:26.820 is that

00:33:27.300 you're

00:33:27.520 doing

00:33:27.800 here

00:33:28.040 why

00:33:28.340 are

00:33:28.560 you

00:33:28.700 here

00:33:28.980 and why

00:33:31.080 I was

00:33:31.460 there was

00:33:31.920 to let

00:33:32.320 go of

00:33:32.760 this pain

00:33:33.240 that I'm

00:33:33.760 carrying

00:33:34.240 still today

00:33:35.040 but to

00:33:35.940 be able to

00:33:36.620 live through

00:33:37.060 it without

00:33:37.400 hurting myself

00:33:38.240 or others

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00:35:34.780 charles can you

00:35:37.580 talk more about

00:35:39.240 what happened to

00:35:40.340 you in the

00:35:41.040 residential school

00:35:41.940 i know these are

00:35:43.040 terrible things to

00:35:43.860 talk about but

00:35:44.480 people need to

00:35:45.260 know

00:35:46.120 before we did this

00:35:57.100 before i knew we were

00:36:00.160 going to sit down and

00:36:15.020 do this i am i was

00:36:17.900 meditating to my

00:36:19.120 grandparents about

00:36:20.080 giving me strength

00:36:21.040 here up in

00:36:23.260 williams lake

00:36:23.900 my family my

00:36:27.760 wife and my

00:36:28.440 children are from

00:36:29.160 here so i wanted

00:36:31.000 them to learn the

00:36:31.800 sioux suave way

00:36:33.340 besides my own

00:36:34.300 so i wanted to uh

00:36:38.980 i'd like to

00:36:39.900 thank the sugar

00:36:42.060 cane tribe for

00:36:42.960 allowing me to be

00:36:43.780 here doing this

00:36:44.580 today because i'm

00:36:48.100 working on some

00:36:48.920 things for them

00:36:49.620 about that

00:36:50.260 residential school

00:36:52.620 that they had

00:36:53.240 here and some

00:36:54.460 history that they

00:36:55.300 taught me here what

00:36:56.260 i could put on

00:36:57.040 their panel

00:36:57.560 going online without

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00:37:05.380 demonstration on a

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00:37:08.300 be fine but what if

00:37:09.840 one day that weird

00:37:10.880 yellow mask drops

00:37:11.800 down from overhead and

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00:38:36.020 slash jordan

00:38:36.820 first of all i think

00:38:43.800 if you can think of all

00:38:48.600 the abuses you can say

00:38:50.180 in english or whatever

00:38:51.380 it happened in here

00:38:53.320 it really happened

00:38:55.180 and it hit it so well

00:38:59.200 that people didn't even

00:39:00.460 know it was going on

00:39:01.420 right next door to them

00:39:02.340 i was five five and a

00:39:10.920 half years old when i

00:39:11.860 got raped by a nun and

00:39:13.860 then i got raped by a

00:39:15.140 preacher the next day

00:39:16.220 so they

00:39:19.980 they sort of shut me

00:39:25.400 down i i didn't didn't

00:39:27.260 want to be around that i

00:39:28.900 didn't want to be hurt

00:39:30.780 like that i didn't want

00:39:31.800 to live like that

00:39:34.240 so i didn't really learn

00:39:36.920 anything by that or what

00:39:38.220 they were doing

00:39:38.740 they're being very mean

00:39:41.420 every which way you can

00:39:43.640 think of

00:39:44.120 and they would tell you

00:39:48.420 it's bible study time and

00:39:50.020 you've never seen a bible

00:39:51.140 so i really sort of don't

00:39:55.780 know what's in that bible

00:39:56.920 because i don't care about

00:39:58.140 it more

00:39:58.580 we probably would have

00:40:01.280 learned more about it

00:40:02.240 if they actually showed

00:40:03.280 us what it was that we

00:40:04.280 were supposed to learn

00:40:05.040 but you get brought down

00:40:10.860 to the boiler room and

00:40:11.900 they would just break you

00:40:13.200 and bless you and make

00:40:15.020 you do things to them

00:40:16.160 if you don't abide by their

00:40:20.180 rules you're going to

00:40:21.440 either get really hurt or

00:40:23.480 you're going to be a memory

00:40:24.480 as a little kid you get

00:40:29.260 really scared of that

00:40:30.260 stuff because you don't

00:40:31.320 know there's nobody there

00:40:32.700 to help you there's no

00:40:33.840 parents to stop them from

00:40:35.300 what they're doing there's

00:40:36.260 nobody there

00:40:36.840 not even another child could

00:40:39.740 help you because they would

00:40:40.680 just get hurt with you

00:40:42.180 i can talk about it today

00:40:48.420 because it

00:40:49.080 it's not happening no

00:40:55.360 more and i don't allow that

00:40:57.260 in my around my family

00:40:59.220 and i don't wish that kind of

00:41:03.920 pain on anybody not even my

00:41:05.480 worst enemy

00:41:06.140 i still when they found

00:41:13.880 out about these graves

00:41:15.240 i started having bad

00:41:18.760 nightmares all over again

00:41:20.160 i started sweating really

00:41:22.200 bad

00:41:22.600 in my palms

00:41:24.220 and i wake up mad

00:41:27.240 because of what i was

00:41:29.380 dreaming about

00:41:30.140 hey charles do you remember

00:41:32.880 when we talked about your

00:41:34.060 dreams a few years ago and

00:41:35.600 you were a little kid in

00:41:36.840 your dreams and you told

00:41:38.420 me you hadn't looked in

00:41:39.440 the mirror for 40 years

00:41:42.480 that you wouldn't look in

00:41:43.620 the mirror

00:41:43.900 22 years jordan

00:41:45.000 22 years i wouldn't see

00:41:48.400 myself in my face or

00:41:50.020 anything because i was

00:41:51.100 ashamed of myself

00:41:52.340 you practiced looking in

00:41:57.280 the mirror to see how old

00:41:59.220 you were and your dreams

00:42:00.800 started to update

00:42:01.900 i phoned you that time i

00:42:04.600 was a

00:42:05.600 three years ago four years

00:42:08.040 ago i was living in surrey

00:42:10.360 and i told you that

00:42:15.260 out of the blue i told you

00:42:17.700 that you know jordan i don't

00:42:19.060 shave looking in the mirror i

00:42:20.620 don't look at myself in the

00:42:21.900 mirror and i rarely comb my

00:42:23.480 hair

00:42:23.840 because i don't i don't even

00:42:26.300 know what my face looks like

00:42:28.280 and then it was funny that when i

00:42:32.660 seen myself on patricia's camera

00:42:34.660 oh that's me and i realized i was

00:42:38.860 looking in the mirror and screaming

00:42:40.240 in my face and i fell to my knees

00:42:43.620 and frankie goes you okay in the

00:42:45.520 bathroom i made a big thump and i could

00:42:50.740 barely say i was okay without letting her

00:42:53.020 know i was crying i was crying because i

00:42:57.360 missed out in 20 years of watching my

00:42:59.600 face and my hair and my body get older

00:43:03.760 i missed out on looking at myself and

00:43:07.960 because of that because of my shame of

00:43:12.720 myself of what happened to me in

00:43:14.400 residential school

00:43:15.340 i transformed my dreams to my

00:43:23.480 grandparents they they're the ones my

00:43:25.940 great-grandparents they're the ones

00:43:27.880 that were teachers at that time so i

00:43:30.200 thought

00:43:30.600 when my great-grandmother went to the

00:43:35.700 hospital when she had an injury on her

00:43:39.120 left leg on her top of her foot she was a

00:43:43.660 diabetics that had a really hard time

00:43:45.900 healing and they wanted to amputate her

00:43:48.160 foot that time

00:43:49.080 and she told us that

00:43:55.180 in our culture when a person loses a

00:43:59.940 limb or a finger or whatever in this

00:44:02.140 world that you've done something so bad

00:44:04.460 that you got to fix it in the next world

00:44:06.300 next time

00:44:07.860 so there's no way you're taking my foot

00:44:12.140 off

00:44:14.520 so i told the doctor just to leave

00:44:16.640 call my family

00:44:18.220 so she called me in

00:44:22.180 and told me what she was doing in there

00:44:25.860 sitting there

00:44:26.560 begging her not to do that

00:44:29.300 because we i still needed to learn more

00:44:32.880 from her

00:44:33.500 she says you're moving

00:44:38.040 what do you mean i'm moving

00:44:42.020 while you're sitting with me i have family

00:44:45.840 members up your house right now packing

00:44:47.840 you and your family out and you're moving in the last ferry you're moving to camber river and i don't want you to see me the way you're gonna swear i'm gonna be i want you to remember me who i am and what i am now not when i get sick

00:45:04.340 and i'm begging her not to do that because we still needed her and i still needed more knowledge from her

00:45:14.780 and she said no son i'm tired

00:45:17.940 i can't be here no more

00:45:19.560 so the last ferry came around and i was

00:45:25.440 i was on

00:45:29.160 i was on i was on the ferry

00:45:31.440 wondering what the heck i'm doing

00:45:33.480 why am i leaving

00:45:34.440 and that was what she asked of me to do

00:45:39.120 so i left

00:45:39.880 and then when i came back for the funeral

00:45:43.560 i was

00:45:44.200 i was

00:45:45.020 i don't know

00:45:46.600 i became a

00:45:52.820 a drunk

00:45:54.160 because everybody passed away

00:45:56.280 seemed like

00:45:58.120 seemed like everybody that i got close to or really really close to and loved very much

00:46:03.880 they seemed to passed away on me

00:46:05.960 so i started

00:46:07.600 these are my

00:46:10.600 my jinx

00:46:12.200 every time if someone i get close to they

00:46:14.760 they either get sick and die or

00:46:17.000 something happened bad

00:46:19.600 so for the longest time after my great grandmother died i wouldn't

00:46:24.040 take anybody as a friend for all that close because of those feelings

00:46:31.640 and that's how i lived for all i saw i just sat and

00:46:37.880 closet drank and then started drinking on the streets with the street people for a few years

00:46:43.640 and then

00:46:47.480 and then i sobered up because of my great grandfather and he said that you have to come

00:46:51.240 home and learn who you are

00:46:54.040 how old were you then charles

00:46:58.680 what's that

00:46:59.720 how old were you then

00:47:06.280 seventeen seventeen

00:47:09.160 i was still under age

00:47:12.440 seventeen

00:47:13.000 eighteen years old

00:47:17.560 and then not too long after that they passed away

00:47:21.880 so i was

00:47:24.200 i was having a hard time with that because i had nowhere to go and sit and talk to anybody

00:47:29.720 no more no more elders to learn from

00:47:31.640 that's how i felt for a while

00:47:34.280 because i closed myself in and didn't want to

00:47:38.360 i didn't want to look for a new grandpa or a new grandmother to teach me i just

00:47:42.920 i was too hurt so i stuck to myself for a while

00:47:49.880 and then

00:47:53.000 the first time i walked into a ceremony house after a few years and

00:47:57.720 met up with bo dick and wayne alford and those guys and

00:48:04.200 they woke up that

00:48:07.800 carver guy inside me

00:48:12.680 and since that time i just

00:48:15.800 started looking forward on how to look better and feel better for myself and

00:48:20.600 looking for people that are positive so i could

00:48:23.400 inhale some of that positivity you know and learn what it feels like

00:48:31.800 let's talk about your let's talk about your carving you said that

00:48:35.320 when you met bo dick and his he was a famous carver and

00:48:38.840 and the people that he was with that woke something up inside of you and that

00:48:42.360 was associated with what you'd learned from your great-grandparents when you were a kid

00:48:47.480 they were artists they're all carvers

00:48:50.120 my great-grandfather my great-great-grandfather and my dad they were all carvers and

00:48:56.840 you know professional dancers they would call them professional dancers

00:49:02.280 and

00:49:05.640 i seen it and i wanted that i wanted to be like my dad i wanted to be like my grandfather so i was

00:49:11.640 when i got to hang out with uh elder carvers

00:49:17.960 it felt like i was sitting with them you know and then

00:49:23.960 when i wasff Г

00:49:26.660 and then started sitting with Bo and Wayne, the people that I grew up with.

00:49:31.400 And amongst other of the elder cars, like Doug Kramer and Bruce Offord,

00:49:38.720 and watching how they create these beautiful things

00:49:43.440 and make it look really easy, I thought,

00:49:47.000 geez, I want to be that guy one day.

00:49:49.460 I want to do that.

00:49:50.480 And so I started carving more and more and more

00:49:58.120 and then started missing out on my job that I used to have.

00:50:02.100 I used to be a logger and a fisherman.

00:50:03.880 I just recently sold my boat because I like carving more than I would fishing.

00:50:13.280 And the thing about the carving lifestyle is I'm still sitting here in Williams Lake

00:50:20.380 by myself, carving always by myself, but I don't feel like I'm by myself.

00:50:29.340 Sometimes I feel, sometimes I get scared to tell the story

00:50:38.080 that a lot of the stuff that I do comes from my dreams

00:50:41.480 and my dreams, my great-grandfather and my dad come to my dreams

00:50:45.960 and they correct me in my carvings if I get stuck

00:50:50.680 or there's something that I think is wrong,

00:50:53.260 they'll remind me how to fix it.

00:50:56.520 And you told me, too, that, like, I was really struck by your carvings

00:51:00.280 when I saw that photo album, and I've got a lot of them now,

00:51:03.620 and, well, that whole project really exploded.

00:51:06.560 We could talk about that later.

00:51:07.760 But you told me that very often in your dreams you dream in the images

00:51:14.000 that you're carving, that those animals and those figures and people,

00:51:18.300 those spirits as well that you carve, they're there in your dreams

00:51:21.800 and you can see them.

00:51:23.600 Talk to me, yeah.

00:51:25.580 Let's say, for instance, I'm sitting there and I'm working on a bear

00:51:29.440 and a raven or an eagle, and I always start from the bottom up,

00:51:35.900 from the bottom of my pole or the bottom of my plaque,

00:51:38.960 and I'll work my way up to the top.

00:51:41.340 The story that I always start with is the bottom and work my way up.

00:51:47.580 And sometimes when I'm sitting there in my dreams,

00:51:50.260 these bear come to life, jump out of the plaque, jump out of the wood,

00:51:54.160 and they're there right in front of me,

00:51:57.860 and the designs that are on them are still on them.

00:52:02.060 It's just weird how that works.

00:52:04.320 And they speak in my language, not English, they speak in my language,

00:52:08.800 and it makes me feel good that I could practice my language

00:52:13.520 without getting whipped or strapped.

00:52:15.880 I guess that's why that's there.

00:52:21.940 Yeah, dreams are really helping out.

00:52:24.160 From through the dreams that I get through my great-grandparents and my dad,

00:52:30.560 I always look forward to it the next night

00:52:35.340 because it's always giving me something that I wanted to learn,

00:52:39.740 teaching me from it.

00:52:43.720 And sometimes it gets scary because some of these big animals,

00:52:48.700 they come to life, I don't know,

00:52:50.740 they're going to hurt me or eat me

00:52:56.260 because the bears are huge and the wild woman's huge.

00:53:00.320 These things are massive.

00:53:02.100 In my dreams, they're real.

00:53:04.300 You know what I mean?

00:53:05.780 The story that you're told, it's that.

00:53:08.820 It's not the carving itself.

00:53:10.800 It's the story that is given to us for that

00:53:13.060 and the legends and how it's danced and used and sang.

00:53:16.120 That's what brings the strength of that bear

00:53:19.040 because it's greater than what he actually looks like

00:53:22.500 when he's in your dream.

00:53:25.440 He's big as a house.

00:53:26.940 He's bigger than the car, right?

00:53:29.040 You know what I mean?

00:53:29.520 That's how big the grizzly bears are in my dream.

00:53:34.640 And the wild woman, she's tall as the trees.

00:53:38.100 You know what I mean?

00:53:39.100 She's massive, but big, big, tall people.

00:53:42.220 And then you've got the book,

00:53:43.880 what's in it?

00:53:44.440 They're so tiny that they're under three feet tall

00:53:48.700 and they can disappear just like that.

00:53:50.620 So those come into my dreams.

00:53:55.800 And when that happens, I always wake up

00:53:57.920 or I'll try to wake up right away

00:53:59.500 and sketch it before I forget it, if I do forget it.

00:54:02.880 And then the reason why I don't forget my dreams

00:54:05.880 is because as soon as I wake up, I talk about it.

00:54:09.200 And I keep talking about it until I get it.

00:54:15.680 Now, how do you understand the relationship

00:54:18.560 between your art and your dreams

00:54:20.400 and your ability to stop drinking

00:54:22.080 and your willingness and wish

00:54:24.060 to straighten out your life?

00:54:25.320 I mean, you haven't had a drink for how long now?

00:54:28.200 I haven't drank for 31 years.

00:54:38.900 I think the reason why I quit drinking

00:54:43.520 and drugging was because

00:54:46.200 it didn't go hand in hand

00:54:49.100 with what I was doing

00:54:50.100 with art and culture.

00:54:51.680 It wasn't there, right?

00:54:53.360 It didn't have those feelings

00:54:56.520 that you have when you're sitting around

00:54:58.200 the art or watching the dance go on

00:55:00.620 or the singing.

00:55:02.420 It means more to me

00:55:05.780 when I'm in cultural.

00:55:07.700 It feels like it's my church.

00:55:12.220 Let's put it that way.

00:55:13.080 I think that's how I want to put it.

00:55:14.560 It feels like I'm in my church

00:55:16.620 when I'm doing these things.

00:55:17.940 It feels like when they're singing

00:55:19.220 and the drums are going

00:55:21.280 and there's from young kids to our elders

00:55:24.700 and when our elders walk into the ceremony house,

00:55:28.240 whether they're on a wheelchair

00:55:29.500 or they got a cane,

00:55:31.000 that just gets put down

00:55:32.480 and it's like there's no pain in that elder

00:55:34.980 because of that singing and drumming.

00:55:37.080 Okay, this is how my great-grandfather told me one time

00:55:42.360 is that you draw the energy from your guests

00:55:46.880 and then when you're dancing,

00:55:48.760 you give it back

00:55:50.020 so that energy's going around like this

00:55:53.160 to them, through your guests

00:55:54.980 and then on the floor to the dance

00:55:57.020 and then back to the guests,

00:55:58.800 back to you, back to there,

00:56:00.300 like that,

00:56:01.140 the energy of positive feeling,

00:56:03.240 good feeling

00:56:03.760 just goes around and around and around

00:56:06.360 and when you leave,

00:56:08.160 you leave feeling like that.

00:56:10.480 Like you're that dancer,

00:56:12.160 you're that singer,

00:56:12.940 you're all of that

00:56:13.920 by witnessing that

00:56:15.640 and I think

00:56:17.140 you witnessed some of those feelings

00:56:19.880 that we've done

00:56:20.640 at your house

00:56:22.860 and plus that ceremony

00:56:24.420 placed in back in Fort Rupert

00:56:26.080 when we had our potlots

00:56:27.260 and that was like

00:56:29.620 I was in my glory

00:56:31.300 when those things go on.

00:56:34.280 Makes you feel really good.

00:56:37.700 None of that

00:56:38.400 my childhood pain

00:56:40.900 surfaces when I'm in that zone.

00:56:45.440 One of the things

00:56:46.440 I found really fascinating

00:56:47.780 about the carvings

00:56:48.980 was the relationship

00:56:50.040 between them and your dreams.

00:56:51.540 That was extremely interesting

00:56:52.720 but also the fact that

00:56:53.900 these figures that you create

00:56:56.080 are associated

00:56:57.240 in your tradition

00:56:58.360 with songs

00:56:59.120 and with dances

00:57:00.000 and that

00:57:00.520 your families have songs

00:57:02.340 and dances

00:57:02.820 that are specific to them

00:57:04.120 and carvings

00:57:04.920 that are passed down

00:57:05.880 that are specific to them.

00:57:07.880 It's very remarkable

00:57:09.240 and so maybe you could talk

00:57:10.520 a little bit about that

00:57:11.460 if you would.

00:57:13.720 Jeez,

00:57:14.400 that kind of

00:57:15.000 art goes back

00:57:16.300 generations after generations

00:57:18.380 but we're always told

00:57:20.200 when you first

00:57:21.420 get put into

00:57:22.600 a dance

00:57:23.280 or a mask

00:57:24.000 and your name

00:57:26.560 is you're not

00:57:28.340 the owner of it

00:57:29.380 you're just

00:57:29.880 a carrier of it

00:57:30.980 you're carrying it

00:57:31.940 for your chief

00:57:32.700 your family

00:57:33.380 your treasure box.

00:57:35.200 so when you put

00:57:38.380 all of that

00:57:39.320 in one box

00:57:40.400 like the treasure box

00:57:41.880 you start to look

00:57:42.800 in there

00:57:43.140 and see what

00:57:43.880 your family

00:57:44.580 how it started

00:57:46.920 where it created

00:57:48.160 from

00:57:48.500 why is it

00:57:50.000 wrong to us

00:57:50.660 why don't we use

00:57:52.060 these ones

00:57:52.620 this

00:57:53.640 and it

00:57:54.500 my grandfather

00:57:55.640 started to say

00:57:56.420 when you learn

00:57:58.060 who you are

00:57:58.720 son

00:57:59.100 there's no end

00:58:00.260 to learning

00:58:01.040 so when you're

00:58:03.240 doing cultural

00:58:04.220 work

00:58:04.680 there's

00:58:05.120 or

00:58:06.360 being a native

00:58:07.980 and doing

00:58:09.760 cultural things

00:58:11.000 the way we do

00:58:11.900 to stay

00:58:13.240 be a survivor

00:58:15.040 or

00:58:15.800 a hunter

00:58:17.180 fisherman

00:58:17.820 or just

00:58:19.560 being a father

00:58:20.600 those teachings

00:58:22.740 are inside

00:58:23.580 those carvings

00:58:24.540 and

00:58:25.840 when I dream

00:58:26.820 about those

00:58:27.560 things

00:58:28.000 there's always

00:58:29.100 something like

00:58:30.100 like for instance

00:58:31.360 Jordan

00:58:31.760 when we were

00:58:32.520 talking about

00:58:33.660 your

00:58:34.580 your

00:58:35.140 holes

00:58:36.000 in your

00:58:36.500 house

00:58:36.960 there

00:58:37.380 and

00:58:39.040 you know

00:58:41.240 when you're

00:58:41.720 talking about

00:58:42.600 your bear

00:58:43.320 so in my

00:58:45.460 dream

00:58:45.820 that bear

00:58:46.380 was holding

00:58:46.960 you

00:58:47.820 hugging you

00:58:49.640 and letting

00:58:50.100 you know

00:58:50.500 that you're

00:58:51.000 the

00:58:51.240 you're the

00:58:52.000 chief of your

00:58:52.800 house

00:58:53.060 you're the

00:58:53.560 speaker

00:58:54.100 of your

00:58:54.460 family

00:58:54.880 you're that

00:58:56.200 man

00:58:56.520 you're the

00:58:58.140 teacher

00:58:58.620 and then

00:59:00.380 when the

00:59:00.760 eagle

00:59:01.200 if your

00:59:01.660 wife

00:59:01.920 when the

00:59:02.280 eagle

00:59:02.600 came to

00:59:03.460 the house

00:59:04.900 that was

00:59:06.060 your wife's

00:59:07.020 story

00:59:07.260 and so

00:59:07.820 we incorporated

00:59:08.760 that eagle

00:59:09.700 and her

00:59:10.520 and your

00:59:11.180 son and

00:59:11.720 daughter

00:59:12.060 into that

00:59:12.760 for wrapping

00:59:13.380 around

00:59:13.860 the family

00:59:14.380 wrap

00:59:15.120 the son

00:59:16.080 and daughter

00:59:16.560 wrap

00:59:16.900 around

00:59:17.300 the mother

00:59:17.920 cause that's

00:59:19.280 you know

00:59:19.520 Charles

00:59:20.060 Charles

00:59:20.680 my friends

00:59:22.320 used to call

00:59:22.960 my dad

00:59:23.560 wally

00:59:23.980 bear

00:59:24.420 and so

00:59:25.880 that's

00:59:26.200 interesting

00:59:26.660 and then

00:59:27.020 I didn't

00:59:27.560 realize

00:59:27.980 until after

00:59:28.700 you've made

00:59:29.220 those poles

00:59:29.860 for me

00:59:30.300 that are up

00:59:30.800 on the

00:59:31.080 third floor

00:59:31.600 that and I

00:59:32.720 didn't know

00:59:33.120 this I should

00:59:33.720 have my

00:59:34.020 middle name

00:59:34.600 barrent is

00:59:35.320 from my

00:59:35.880 great-grandfather

00:59:36.740 and it

00:59:37.240 it's derived

00:59:38.340 from the word

00:59:38.980 for bear

00:59:39.580 yeah

00:59:40.860 wow

00:59:41.680 good one

00:59:42.860 yeah

00:59:43.900 it's amazing

00:59:46.120 how things

00:59:46.740 come together

00:59:47.440 and it

00:59:48.380 it fits

00:59:49.120 the story

00:59:49.860 both sides

00:59:51.040 like mine

00:59:51.600 and yours

00:59:52.140 yes

00:59:53.400 it is amazing

00:59:54.160 how things

00:59:54.640 come together

00:59:55.260 in stories

00:59:55.880 at times

00:59:56.460 there's no

00:59:56.900 doubt about

00:59:57.360 that

00:59:58.120 right

00:59:58.880 because

00:59:59.160 that

01:00:00.720 that story

01:00:01.740 was already

01:00:03.100 yours

01:00:03.540 I just

01:00:03.960 put it

01:00:04.980 in that

01:00:05.500 form

01:00:05.880 right

01:00:08.100 so we

01:00:08.500 love that

01:00:08.940 third floor

01:00:09.640 yeah

01:00:10.360 and same

01:00:10.940 with your

01:00:11.320 wife

01:00:11.600 that was

01:00:11.980 her

01:00:12.340 eagle story

01:00:13.220 so that

01:00:13.780 I just

01:00:14.500 made it

01:00:15.340 what I

01:00:15.760 how I

01:00:16.280 heard it

01:00:16.820 right

01:00:17.020 and how

01:00:17.440 I've

01:00:17.820 seen it

01:00:18.300 in my

01:00:18.600 dream

01:00:18.880 and

01:00:20.220 and a lot

01:00:20.840 of times

01:00:21.300 my dreams

01:00:23.040 gave me

01:00:23.500 my own

01:00:24.020 answers

01:00:24.480 and how

01:00:24.960 I want

01:00:25.360 to carve

01:00:25.940 or draw

01:00:26.580 something

01:00:27.000 and then

01:00:27.460 I'll show

01:00:28.240 my

01:00:28.560 clients

01:00:29.500 and clients

01:00:30.640 that say

01:00:31.100 have a look

01:00:31.560 at this

01:00:31.900 this came

01:00:32.360 from a dream

01:00:33.000 and my dream

01:00:33.720 told me

01:00:34.140 this

01:00:34.380 so

01:00:35.960 some

01:00:36.440 most of

01:00:36.920 the time

01:00:37.200 oh we

01:00:37.800 should go

01:00:38.140 with your

01:00:38.420 dream

01:00:38.740 because it

01:00:40.980 means something

01:00:41.660 there's a

01:00:42.320 story that

01:00:43.160 comes with

01:00:43.800 that carving

01:00:44.960 or that

01:00:45.540 dream and

01:00:46.080 it follows

01:00:46.960 that carving

01:00:47.700 and I

01:00:51.600 sort of like

01:00:52.200 just sit

01:00:52.640 and

01:00:53.080 ponder

01:00:55.620 how this

01:00:56.420 story is

01:00:56.980 going to

01:00:57.240 come to

01:00:57.640 life

01:00:57.920 when I'm

01:00:58.840 carving

01:00:59.160 as I'm

01:00:59.680 carving

01:00:59.980 I can

01:01:00.460 see it

01:01:00.880 coming to

01:01:01.420 life

01:01:01.700 but I

01:01:03.440 can't

01:01:03.780 see it

01:01:04.120 when I'm

01:01:04.420 just

01:01:04.600 looking at

01:01:05.140 this

01:01:05.380 block

01:01:05.740 of wood

01:01:06.120 or this

01:01:07.400 log

01:01:08.020 but once

01:01:08.920 it starts

01:01:09.420 forming

01:01:09.860 into a

01:01:10.640 totem pole

01:01:11.340 or a

01:01:11.920 carbon

01:01:12.240 mask

01:01:12.760 then I

01:01:14.160 start to

01:01:14.700 see that

01:01:15.400 story that's

01:01:16.360 coming from

01:01:17.000 that

01:01:17.260 that's when

01:01:20.420 it comes to

01:01:21.000 life is when

01:01:21.560 I start to

01:01:22.180 carve it

01:01:22.560 actually

01:01:22.920 so I

01:01:23.760 can't tell

01:01:24.760 you the

01:01:25.160 sometimes the

01:01:26.140 full story

01:01:26.920 until I'm

01:01:27.460 actually

01:01:27.800 finished drawing

01:01:28.940 or carving

01:01:29.520 what it is

01:01:30.200 because as

01:01:31.480 I'm doing

01:01:31.960 that I

01:01:33.340 remember

01:01:33.940 stuff in

01:01:34.500 my dream

01:01:34.980 what they're

01:01:35.480 saying to

01:01:36.140 me and

01:01:37.280 how I

01:01:39.280 should say

01:01:39.760 it in

01:01:40.060 English

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01:01:45.520 but thanks to

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01:02:49.260 oh maya maya maya she

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01:03:03.360 10 p.m because she

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01:03:21.600 so when you came out

01:03:24.900 to toronto we

01:03:26.520 started to talk about

01:03:27.680 my third floor tammy

01:03:29.640 and i had kind of had

01:03:30.500 this weird dream of

01:03:31.660 putting a log cabin on

01:03:33.280 the top of our little

01:03:34.840 house in toronto and

01:03:36.140 you know it's an

01:03:37.240 absurd thing in some

01:03:38.280 sense but it that's

01:03:39.460 really what happened

01:03:40.320 because the whole

01:03:41.160 inside of that now is

01:03:42.480 wood from my great

01:03:43.660 grandfather's barn and

01:03:45.360 it's full of your

01:03:46.600 carvings i think there's

01:03:47.700 30 of them up there

01:03:48.780 a lot of them from

01:03:50.220 the potlatch that you

01:03:51.440 hosted in on

01:03:53.620 vancouver island and

01:03:54.640 that we had the

01:03:55.420 privilege of attending

01:03:56.320 which was amazing

01:03:57.500 thing a completely

01:03:58.400 amazing thing and

01:03:59.280 when you came out

01:04:00.440 here we won't

01:04:01.480 mention who who he

01:04:02.940 was but i introduced

01:04:04.360 you to a good friend

01:04:05.460 of mine and he

01:04:06.220 commissioned a lot of

01:04:07.340 work from you including

01:04:08.360 that huge totem pole and

01:04:09.940 so maybe you could tell

01:04:10.720 the story about carving

01:04:11.780 that that 50 foot

01:04:13.260 totem pole

01:04:13.960 yeah 54 54 feet yeah

01:04:18.260 it 54 feet with the

01:04:19.960 horns on stuff

01:04:20.900 it started off with

01:04:25.460 when we first like

01:04:29.080 when you first brought

01:04:30.000 me to toronto and

01:04:31.100 then we were talking

01:04:31.820 about shamey and his

01:04:35.300 name is also charles

01:04:36.780 and all the rest

01:04:38.760 he passed away on a

01:04:45.800 train tracks and

01:04:46.720 anyway uh when you

01:04:48.900 guys were telling that

01:04:49.940 story at the dining

01:04:53.240 table there and then

01:04:54.460 you then you um i was

01:04:57.780 listening to the story

01:04:58.760 and you go jeez how do

01:05:00.240 they know me already i

01:05:02.120 thought you guys were

01:05:02.920 already talking about me

01:05:04.480 because you brought up

01:05:05.320 they brought up charles's

01:05:08.020 name a few times and

01:05:09.520 that's shamey's name and

01:05:11.580 that's my name so i thought

01:05:13.160 you guys were already

01:05:13.780 talking about me so i

01:05:15.880 thought jeez i don't

01:05:16.760 even have to say

01:05:17.500 nothing you guys i

01:05:18.440 already know but and

01:05:20.480 then you said oh charles

01:05:21.900 has a similar story to

01:05:23.720 shamey's so i'm i was

01:05:26.840 looking at you and i was

01:05:28.200 looking at you know uh and

01:05:31.440 that just and i said just

01:05:32.900 give me a minute i need to

01:05:34.120 go outside and i seen

01:05:36.200 there's trees out there

01:05:37.400 right close to the house

01:05:38.580 we were at there we were

01:05:39.620 having lunch that time so i

01:05:42.120 went over those trees right

01:05:43.480 away and i went out there

01:05:45.340 and asked for my my

01:05:47.240 grandparents to come give

01:05:49.520 me strength to come and

01:05:50.660 talk about this over here

01:05:52.060 way over in toronto and

01:05:54.260 then it i felt that big

01:05:56.380 breeze come through and i

01:05:57.660 oh yeah they're here and

01:05:59.700 then i went back in and

01:06:00.860 then we started talking

01:06:02.460 about that day about my

01:06:04.420 residential school and i

01:06:05.700 just i sort of gave it to

01:06:08.220 you guys in a short form

01:06:09.900 that time i think you

01:06:11.760 danced then too remember

01:06:14.700 that it wasn't long no it

01:06:18.220 was really striking you know

01:06:19.600 i i was really and i was

01:06:20.980 really amazed to watch you

01:06:22.220 dance because you fit you

01:06:23.800 fell into it in in so in

01:06:26.420 such a deep manner that it

01:06:27.800 was immediately entrancing

01:06:29.420 yeah it makes you feel

01:06:31.880 that way that's why i love

01:06:33.060 the cultural dance the way

01:06:35.060 we dance and how we how we

01:06:37.380 you know use our mask and

01:06:39.620 and what it is that i what i

01:06:41.780 carry for my family today

01:06:43.240 it's the hamaza right and

01:06:46.840 and that's a that's a very

01:06:50.960 important dance that our chief

01:06:53.640 carries and he puts on his

01:06:55.360 son to become the next chief

01:06:57.000 and up-and-coming chief and

01:07:01.140 uh i was really uh

01:07:03.300 really uh thankful that uh

01:07:08.760 and grateful and honored to

01:07:11.260 be uh asked to be the

01:07:14.220 hamaza and our pilots that

01:07:16.520 we had with you guys there in

01:07:18.460 uh it was 2016 i think it was

01:07:22.840 or 15 but that was from the

01:07:26.380 joseph side of the family and

01:07:27.920 that was my my great

01:07:30.800 grandfather uh billy joseph's

01:07:33.180 chief and chip and uh my

01:07:36.800 auntie and uncle asked if i

01:07:38.220 could uh be that dancer that

01:07:40.500 day because we wanted to put it

01:07:42.300 on my son and then put it on

01:07:44.200 their their son because it

01:07:46.840 belonged in that side of the

01:07:48.240 family but the family said we

01:07:49.940 want it on you i mean i said i

01:07:52.780 got thrown back by that because

01:07:55.380 i thought they would point at my

01:07:57.080 son but they said no we want it

01:07:59.380 on you first so you could put it

01:08:00.960 on him later down the road oh

01:08:04.360 but it belongs to your son just no

01:08:08.120 we want it on you my son can't

01:08:10.860 dance my son's not ready for

01:08:13.000 culture so i stood up and that's

01:08:18.420 probably the first time i ever

01:08:22.660 really started crying hugging

01:08:24.580 people was around that time and i

01:08:26.720 still do that today now um i was

01:08:29.820 a what a huggy kind of guy i didn't

01:08:33.360 like it yeah no wonder

01:08:35.860 anyways but uh that at that time i i

01:08:42.000 was uh honored to be that guy and

01:08:44.360 then when i started dancing

01:08:45.860 with bo dick and wayne alfred family

01:08:50.540 and different ceremonies uh up in our

01:08:55.180 hometown like there's must have been

01:08:57.400 invited to about maybe 50 different

01:09:02.860 politics in my lifetime so yeah so when

01:09:09.220 i well as you know when i get into

01:09:12.360 regalia and become my sort of like i

01:09:15.780 transform i feel really good i got no

01:09:18.260 arthritis i got no pain i'm i'm really

01:09:22.100 happy my heart just jumps for joy when

01:09:25.780 i'm doing cultural work makes you feel

01:09:28.880 really good makes you let go of all of

01:09:31.740 that stuff right you know yeah it puts

01:09:34.040 you in a different place it's partly

01:09:35.480 why i like having that art around

01:09:37.140 well and good art period because it has

01:09:39.960 that capability to that beauty and that

01:09:44.780 depth to take you somewhere better

01:09:46.920 yeah yeah this car now this pole you

01:09:52.160 you carved some christian religious

01:09:54.740 figures into that pole

01:09:56.240 um okay i'll tell you a short story on

01:10:02.500 starting from the bottom of the pole

01:10:04.440 uh the bottom of the pole is the owners

01:10:08.360 of the pole and family

01:10:09.700 i'm i'm i'm still not allowed to use

01:10:15.780 names because of the media and stuff so but

01:10:19.480 anyway the and then on after that is

01:10:22.400 there it's it's a cedar rope carved like

01:10:24.860 a cedar rope underneath the bottom of

01:10:27.600 the woman's legs and that cedar rope is

01:10:30.460 to for a safety of wherever that pole goes

01:10:33.580 i feel because us as a quack quack quack

01:10:37.400 people we use cedar bark for dancing and

01:10:42.060 for ceremony and for healing so that's why

01:10:45.780 i put that there and then there's a woman

01:10:47.740 on top of that cedar rope and she's kneeling

01:10:50.140 down and she has her arm out and under each

01:10:54.100 arm she's got a boy and a girl and that's

01:10:56.500 welcoming the kids home from residential

01:10:58.800 school and then above that it's a whale and

01:11:02.940 on the whale it has faces on that whale and

01:11:05.660 those faces represent the children that got

01:11:08.860 adopted out and never got to come home and

01:11:11.000 be themselves and why it's on a whale is

01:11:13.960 because that whale goes around the world and

01:11:15.900 comes back to where it belongs i thought that

01:11:19.180 was fitting that the children did that went

01:11:21.320 somewhere and then came back and didn't feel

01:11:23.180 like they belonged though so i put that on

01:11:26.480 the whale and then after the whale i made a

01:11:29.480 raven and a raven and our it's a trickster

01:11:33.120 you know they're very smart ravens they like

01:11:37.140 to play too so i thought what would be

01:11:40.240 fitting on that raven was i'd put a preacher

01:11:42.880 and a nun on the wings and then i put a cross

01:11:46.240 on the middle of that raven's chest the reason

01:11:50.140 why i used the raven was because of how these

01:11:53.040 christianity people tricked our people into

01:11:55.740 taking our elders first and it didn't work so

01:12:00.380 they put the elders back and took the children

01:12:02.300 away and put us in these residential schools but

01:12:06.500 first they tried to do that with elders and

01:12:08.880 then they put us back put them back because

01:12:10.980 they didn't the kids were still learning so

01:12:14.580 they put the elders back and took the kids

01:12:16.380 away and that's when they found it was more

01:12:19.920 effective so

01:12:22.620 you know it's the thing about when your life

01:12:28.780 changes over and over like when i first met you

01:12:32.640 guys

01:12:33.040 i want to live like that i want to feel like

01:12:37.420 that

01:12:37.780 so i

01:12:41.100 i look for people like that now i look for

01:12:46.380 positive people that feel good about

01:12:48.360 themselves

01:12:48.880 and

01:12:50.280 i'm not i'm not trying to brag or anything

01:12:55.680 but it

01:12:56.240 it's good to feel like that it it's it makes me feel

01:13:02.620 good that i when i'm like that i can carve happy

01:13:05.300 masks i feel good i'm i'm not frustrated

01:13:09.080 inside or hurt inside where my mask's gonna

01:13:12.080 feel like that right or my car me

01:13:14.080 so when i do tone polls i want to feel like

01:13:19.260 that and when i'm not feeling good about

01:13:21.300 things i won't go to that pole that next

01:13:23.940 day or something if i'm feeling down or

01:13:25.920 there's something sad or death going on

01:13:28.400 i won't go around my art until i feel better

01:13:32.380 and

01:13:34.900 i don't know why i do that it's just something

01:13:38.940 out of respect for the spirit people out of

01:13:41.780 respect for the teachers that taught me the

01:13:44.080 art

01:13:44.400 uh i guess that's

01:13:47.260 learning learning how to deal with respect in

01:13:50.640 in that way

01:13:51.560 well learning what to respect too

01:13:54.980 yeah look there there's with alcoholism there's a scientific literature on alcohol abuse and one of the most effective treatments for alcohol abuse is spiritual transformation it's the only it's the only treatment so to speak for alcoholism that's really been validated and so that's that's really quite something and you know you said that you found something that was more important fundamentally i mean there's more to it than that but

01:14:24.960 that's to be taken seriously you know i quit drinking when i was about 28 and the reason i quit was because i was writing well there's a couple reasons i was having kids and i wasn't going to drink when i had little kids i that just wasn't a good idea

01:14:38.480 and uh you know the only time i was doing things that i would be ashamed of the next day or a week late or something it was always if i was drinking and so i thought well maybe i don't want to do things i'm ashamed of anymore

01:14:52.160 but also because i was writing and i was writing about mythology and stories and all of that it was very hard work and very emotionally demanding but i couldn't do it well if i was hung over

01:15:03.900 and so i thought well which do i want to be do i want to write this book or do i want to be hung over

01:15:09.300 and so i stopped and i stopped for 30 years i guess i drank a little bit again when i was in my early 50s

01:15:17.560 but i quit again after that because i found that even though it's about 25 years had gone by

01:15:23.060 if i drank again i usually drank too much and then i you know was likely to do something stupid and i thought

01:15:29.020 well no it's just not worth it at all it's not worth it at all yeah laughing with you

01:15:34.820 yeah yeah no i understand and so how many people worked with you on that on those those big poles that you produced i mean you produced some eight footers for me

01:15:46.360 eight and ten feet i guess the welcome figure must be nine feet about

01:15:49.940 when i worked on your stuff jordan there was just the family me oceanic james and frankie

01:15:58.180 myself my brother leonard my brother gordon my late nephew johnny and my nephew mike and orbit

01:16:15.140 leonard jr and so it sort of it was uh like like i've always done i've always family effort right i make sure

01:16:24.580 i keep my family involved and and so they they keep in touch with culture and then when we had that

01:16:32.820 ceremony a lot of my family members didn't make it but one of the ones that did make it they were never

01:16:39.700 you know introduced to the culture because they lived in vancouver all their lives are uh urbanized

01:16:48.100 so when they got to come home it was a big teaching to them too right because they were

01:16:52.980 never ever been involved in it so it was good to see that uh it works was it good for them to do the

01:17:02.500 carving oh geez you should have seen how they felt when it got stood up they were so proud of being part

01:17:09.620 of that you know what i mean and i was proud to see that how happy they look when they seen the creation

01:17:16.820 that we did together as a family stood up somewhere where we're never going to probably go again you

01:17:23.140 know who knows yeah that was it and so what do you think about it being in montreal and the

01:17:30.180 busiest street there pretty much sherbrooke's a major street i mean it's one of the main streets

01:17:35.460 of montreal it's beautiful street and it's in front of the museum of fine art which is really something

01:17:40.340 because that's definitely one of the finest museums in canada it doesn't look like it's going anywhere

01:17:45.860 soon no uh well i mentioned to them that you know one day you guys should return this pool and get your own

01:17:58.020 but uh um and i tried to approach them with another idea was that as i would like to take a log there

01:18:06.020 to the mohawk people a raw log and then work with the mohawk artists and see what we can come up with

01:18:14.420 and that's that's one of the ideas i had just so um

01:18:24.020 are do you have more of a car that are interested in jordan reconciliation with another tribe it's i

01:18:30.340 don't know if i want to call it that i think it's just to to rekindle what our elders did before us

01:18:36.980 you know and get go back to uh being related in in in uh all the nations across uh canada i guess

01:18:48.820 so when you've approached the museum with that idea what happened um because that's a great idea do you

01:18:54.740 have mohawk carvers that are interested i know of a couple that were and then we were gonna first

01:19:01.380 get that idea on a table then i was gonna bring it to the mohawk chiefs that i that i didn't invited

01:19:07.140 to the poll raising and then see what would become of it

01:19:14.900 yeah so i haven't heard nothing back from that yet but one good thing that came out of that since that

01:19:22.340 time though is um they had this thing that they were talking about the totem pole inside the museum

01:19:30.020 and then they had people make footprints and what they thought about the story of the pole

01:19:36.820 and then they leave their footprint behind i think that's one of the things that they did there and then

01:19:44.100 on the 30th of last month they weren't uh national with the story of the pole

01:19:52.340 i haven't got any feedback on my site and stuff about it yet but soon i guess

01:19:57.540 so can i ask you a political question or two yeah why not well you know canada is hypothetically

01:20:05.540 engaging in this soul searching process this reconciliation process and i'm kind of curious about

01:20:14.260 i mean there's parts of it that i really not very i don't feel good about like for example now

01:20:21.300 before most ceremonies before most public events in eastern canada there is a statement about the land

01:20:31.220 that this the people this land once belonged to it i don't like that because it it seems hypocritical to

01:20:38.900 me and and and not real and i think it's showy and false and well that might just be me but i'm pretty

01:20:47.300 curious about you're looking at this from well from a completely different perspective than me and

01:20:53.300 like what do you think about this reconciliation effort and has it been helpful to you and to people

01:20:58.740 you know and is it real and okay jordan i need to ask you something this has been on my mind for a while

01:21:07.700 and i wanted to ask you that quite a while ago but what does that mean reconciliation about this that

01:21:15.940 in my mind that that means two parties that are are two parties that are saying they did something wrong

01:21:26.660 and and trying to fix it that's that's what my thoughts what reconciliation means but that's why i don't

01:21:35.540 agree with it because we're not the ones in the fault there they are

01:21:43.780 so that's what i'm going to tell you a story charles okay okay i want to tell you a story

01:21:49.300 this is a story that a friend of mine who committed suicide wrote

01:21:54.020 uh he lived up in in high high prairie high level i think it was high level in alberta and there were a lot

01:22:01.140 of native kids there and he was probably around 10 or so and he used to get beat up fairly regularly

01:22:07.620 and was often by the native kids and he wouldn't fight back and the reason he wouldn't fight back

01:22:12.820 was because he felt guilty and that guilt you know that guilt about i don't know it's the horrible hand

01:22:21.860 of history i suppose charles that guilt like that eventually ate him up and killed him now he had other problems but

01:22:29.380 where did his guilt come from well he felt that he was an interloper and he was an occupier and he

01:22:39.780 didn't have the right to fight back and so he wouldn't fight back and you know then he he uh decided

01:22:46.900 when he was a teenager that anything he did that was sort of masculine and achievement oriented and

01:22:51.860 ambitious was wrong because it was associated with all this historical cruelty and so he just stopped

01:22:57.700 himself from doing anything and it killed him it's not that uncommon you know and i've been thinking

01:23:04.820 about this a lot you you look into the history of mankind and it's pretty damn bleak you know

01:23:10.020 there's a lot of horror in the past a lot of bloodshed a lot of warfare a lot of cruelty

01:23:15.300 a lot of malevolence and we all have to contend with that and like for me that you asked about

01:23:21.780 reconciliation for me it's getting to know you you know i had some native friends when i grew up

01:23:27.300 it was it was hard there was a big gap yeah you know i'll tell you a story i'll remember this man

01:23:33.060 so i i had this friend off and on friend he was a native guy his name was dennis hellie i think dennis

01:23:39.220 is still alive and we kind of had a friendship in grade six and he was a big rough kid and i was a bit

01:23:45.140 afraid of him but he was a good guy good looking kid and he was smart but and we were trying to

01:23:51.220 have a friendship and i'd invited him to go to the movie with me that night and then we were sitting

01:23:57.860 in class and my dad was teaching the class and dennis was chewing gum and my dad said dennis stop

01:24:05.700 chewing that gum you sound like a cow and i said dennis the cow ha ha ha and then he looked at me and he

01:24:13.780 like and he meant you're you're dead after school and so i was terrified the whole damn day and

01:24:22.020 after school i zipped out by where where the bikes were and dennis came after me and i was sort of

01:24:28.260 running around the bikes and trying to stay away from him and i sort of hid behind this i don't know

01:24:33.460 what it was there was some structure there and he was on the other side of it and i said dennis you know

01:24:39.460 we could stop fighting i'd still like to go to the movie with you tonight and he broke into tears and

01:24:45.620 ran home yeah so reconciliation that's a hard thing eh yeah and maybe that's kind of what you and i are

01:24:55.700 doing i think so but what i wanted to know it's not easy you know because there's a lot of bad blood and

01:25:04.900 there's a lot of horror and and none of us really know how to do it you know we come from very different

01:25:12.980 places and we don't know how to make that work it's not a simple thing or why it happened you know why

01:25:20.420 why are we so separated and then the greatest thing is now we're together

01:25:27.620 well that's something isn't it and the totem pole's in montreal and that's something too

01:25:35.860 we're not just friends we're family yeah that's what i mean about the greatest thing for me

01:25:42.420 is how we reconnect is right and how you and i met and why

01:25:49.140 you know i think a lot of this sort of thing has to be done at the individual level you know

01:25:52.980 and then what i love about it is that we stay we're still connected we're still growing

01:26:04.420 yeah we're doing our best man yeah and i love that it makes me feel good that i'm part of that

01:26:11.780 yeah me too it's really been something charles this all these things that we've been through

01:26:17.060 it was it was hard you know i've been sick for about three years now and i haven't talked to you much

01:26:22.660 didn't have the stamina for it you know i was pretty isolated myself from pretty much everybody

01:26:28.740 except my immediate family but we've been on some great adventures you and me that potlatch was really

01:26:35.780 something that ceremony you know when you you and your guys came and your and your wife too your whole

01:26:42.500 family came to my house to do the ceremony to open the third floor that was the same day so that

01:26:48.820 was when i was inducted into your family you know people have made fun of that and said that i was

01:26:53.380 lying and well it's not a lie no and and that was the same day that i was being accused of being a

01:27:00.100 bigot and a racist at the university it was the same goddamn day the same day the debate the

01:27:05.140 debate there was a big debate there when everything blew up around me so i went from this debate where

01:27:10.340 you know i was basically being accused of being a racist and a bigot to this ceremony in my house where

01:27:15.380 i was inducted into your family it was a pretty damn weird day i can tell you that

01:27:22.020 okay when we've got to change that word

01:27:26.500 abducted when we were when we had i chose our family had a meeting and we had a meeting with

01:27:35.220 all of my joseph family and some hereditary chiefs about adopting you and your family into our family in

01:27:41.940 the ceremony house and then the chiefs had asked me what was the reason for doing that and i explained

01:27:52.500 to him what how we've met and how long i've been friends with you and your wife and kids

01:27:59.700 and then the importance of hanging on to that friendship and the importance of what i was not just

01:28:08.980 sharing with you but also learning from you and and your family and what what it was was that i

01:28:17.780 i really was yawning for was that living in a happy positive way that you guys lived in and i wanted some

01:28:27.220 of that i was hungry for it so i wanted to inhale all i could from you guys and learn from it

01:28:35.460 and it makes me feel really good to be part of that because who would have thought that

01:28:43.460 i would understand those feelings but i do

01:28:48.340 and it's an awesome feeling to have is been able to have positiveness in your feelings even if it's just

01:28:55.300 for a moment yeah yeah no

01:29:02.100 charles i'm gonna say goodbye for today hey jordan it's been awesome talking with you it's good to

01:29:07.940 see you bro and uh you keep up the good work hey i'm looking forward to seeing what you produce in your

01:29:15.620 dreams for my new house

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01:29:44.340 but craig does like to save money when he's at work craig also cares about his carbon footprint

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The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast - February 03, 2022

223. Cruelty ｜ Charles Joseph

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