The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast - 226. Couples Report from understandmyself.com

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00:01:10.320 Welcome to Season 4, Episode 83 of the JBP Podcast.

00:01:15.080 I'm Mikayla Peterson.

00:01:16.520 When Mom and Dad came to Nashville, we had a group discussion on relationships.

00:01:20.520 I went over my parents' Understand Myself reports,

00:01:24.000 the personality reports Dad has made that are available at understandmyself.com.

00:01:28.680 If you do them yourself, you can link yours to another person's

00:01:32.600 and the website gives you a comparison of your personalities

00:01:35.560 and where you're going to have difficulties.

00:01:38.160 We spoke about their personality, conflict avoidance, compassion, intellect,

00:01:42.280 disciplining children, and more.

00:01:44.180 Dad wanted me just to be the person there to ask the questions,

00:01:47.500 so that's how it's set up.

00:01:48.920 We talked about negotiating with your partner,

00:01:51.340 maybe the most important skill in a relationship,

00:01:53.460 and of course, how all of this is affected by the big five personality model.

00:01:58.480 So that personality is openness to experience,

00:02:01.940 conscientiousness, extroversion, agreeableness, and neuroticism.

00:02:05.140 I hope you enjoy this conversation.

00:02:07.280 Again, if you want an ad-free experience for this podcast,

00:02:10.480 check out show notes or go to jordanbpeterson.supercast.com.

00:02:14.720 You can sign up for $10 a month.

00:02:16.780 That'll change what you press on in Spotify or Apple Podcasts

00:02:20.240 or wherever you listen to podcasts to the ad-free version.

00:02:41.480 Mom and Dad, fancy seeing you guys in Nashville.

00:02:44.720 We're very happy to be here.

00:02:46.500 Hi, Makayla.

00:02:47.440 Hi.

00:02:48.060 This is fun.

00:02:48.940 Yeah.

00:02:49.620 This is going to be fun.

00:02:50.920 We are going to talk about your couples report,

00:02:54.540 which is part of, Dad, your Understand Myself personality report system,

00:03:00.960 where you can join people together

00:03:03.180 and then see all the ways that you either work or don't work.

00:03:08.240 Right, right.

00:03:08.980 Each person can do a personality assessment at that site,

00:03:12.180 and then they can join with their partner

00:03:14.180 or with anyone else they choose

00:03:15.740 to have a couples report generated

00:03:18.120 that outlines their similarities and differences,

00:03:20.540 where they'll get along easily

00:03:21.800 and where they might have differences

00:03:23.620 and why those differences can be useful and so forth.

00:03:27.520 So are you guys really comfortable

00:03:29.020 with sharing this with the world,

00:03:31.500 the differences in your personalities,

00:03:33.280 whether or not that works?

00:03:34.640 I mean, apparently it works fairly well.

00:03:36.000 You're both here.

00:03:36.900 You're on the same couch.

00:03:37.820 That's a good start.

00:03:40.580 Yeah, well, we won't say anything that we don't want to share,

00:03:45.180 but we've talked a lot about our personality differences

00:03:47.420 and similarities and figured out, at least to some degree,

00:03:51.480 how to appreciate them

00:03:52.540 and how to negotiate in relationship to them.

00:03:55.580 Mom, what do you think?

00:03:56.340 Are you ready?

00:03:57.020 Yeah, I'm ready.

00:03:58.080 Okay.

00:03:59.000 We're going to start with agreeableness.

00:04:00.820 So, Dad, you scored 95th percentile in agreeableness.

00:04:08.280 Ah, that's sad.

00:04:09.920 And Mom, you scored 29th percentile in agreeableness.

00:04:14.560 Hmm, that's different.

00:04:16.240 So, it's a little bit different.

00:04:18.780 So I guess we should talk about,

00:04:20.580 has that been an issue with having one person

00:04:23.380 significantly higher in agreeableness than the other?

00:04:26.280 Well, if I could start,

00:04:27.240 I think that you want some difference.

00:04:30.820 Because, you know, you're reacting to what's going on in the world

00:04:35.000 and you can temper each other

00:04:39.020 or, you know, change the way someone is seeing something

00:04:43.880 through the lens of agreeableness

00:04:47.200 and have a broader idea of interpretations of the world.

00:04:54.280 So the utility for me

00:04:57.140 in having your mom be more disagreeable than me

00:04:59.460 is that I tend to give everyone the benefit of the doubt

00:05:04.860 at a fairly broad level.

00:05:08.220 And Tammy is much more skeptical, I would say,

00:05:11.660 of people than I am.

00:05:13.060 And that means that when there's someone around

00:05:15.780 who you should be skeptical of,

00:05:18.200 she's more likely to pick that up.

00:05:19.960 And so I like to bring her to meetings

00:05:22.400 and just as an observer often

00:05:24.680 because she'll report to me afterwards

00:05:27.860 about her thoughts and her suspicions

00:05:32.320 and then I've learned through sometimes painful experience

00:05:36.260 to at least pay attention to that.

00:05:38.480 I think Tam might have paid some price

00:05:40.200 for her higher levels of disagreeableness.

00:05:43.260 So...

00:05:44.100 Thankful like what?

00:05:45.420 Well, when you're disagreeable, you tend to say no.

00:05:51.360 Does that have anything to do with extroversion as well, though?

00:05:54.340 Yeah.

00:05:54.860 If you're enthusiastic, you tend to say yes.

00:05:58.160 Well, we won't talk about my enthusiasm yet.

00:06:00.960 We're going to get there.

00:06:01.780 Yeah, we're going to get there.

00:06:02.720 But I think it has something to do with me saying no

00:06:06.600 and also wanting my own way.

00:06:09.380 Stubborn.

00:06:10.160 Yeah, I want my own way.

00:06:11.880 Yeah.

00:06:12.240 Here.

00:06:12.880 Also, it does lead to some misunderstanding

00:06:17.180 because people low in agreeableness

00:06:20.180 can be kind of curt and snappy.

00:06:24.160 Not snappy, that's not exactly right.

00:06:26.040 They can be curt and blunt.

00:06:27.520 They're less polite.

00:06:28.700 And so if you want to know what someone thinks,

00:06:30.760 it's really good to have a disagreeable person around,

00:06:33.380 but it's not like they really go out of their way

00:06:35.060 to smooth things out so that there isn't...

00:06:40.160 That's more than just...

00:06:41.840 I have risk of...

00:06:43.400 Like I'm not volatile.

00:06:45.300 Right.

00:06:45.640 And I have really low in withdrawal.

00:06:47.440 That's part of that.

00:06:48.360 Yeah, well, that helps.

00:06:49.000 So it's complicated.

00:06:49.660 It helps a lot because it means

00:06:52.580 that you're less likely to get upset.

00:06:55.000 But I'm less likely to walk away

00:06:56.720 when there's a confrontation.

00:06:58.380 Mm-hmm.

00:06:58.680 Right.

00:06:59.780 And that can be both good and bad.

00:07:01.220 And that's hard on somebody.

00:07:02.500 And scary to be around.

00:07:03.200 It's hard on somebody who's more agreeable.

00:07:05.580 How did you experience the differences

00:07:07.220 in our temperament, Mick,

00:07:08.440 when you were growing up?

00:07:09.700 So I'm...

00:07:10.580 It's funny because I'm in a lot of conflict

00:07:12.300 all the time, but I hate conflict.

00:07:13.900 Mm-hmm.

00:07:14.420 It really bugs me.

00:07:16.100 I don't like it.

00:07:17.180 I don't like firing people, for example.

00:07:20.220 I don't really even like disciplining people, even.

00:07:22.960 And I don't like hurting people's feelings.

00:07:25.420 And I would say Tammy is less sensitive to that than I am.

00:07:29.120 And that's not a criticism.

00:07:30.420 But, but, and this is coming from someone who's also,

00:07:33.860 I'm split with agreeableness, right?

00:07:36.280 But low in politeness.

00:07:37.700 Mom, I don't think mom would hurt somebody's feelings

00:07:40.280 unless they kind of deserved it.

00:07:42.240 Right?

00:07:42.780 Well, I think...

00:07:43.560 And your, I guess, description of what deserve is

00:07:46.660 would be different.

00:07:47.400 Yeah, well, I think your mom's judgment is really good.

00:07:50.960 And I think she often puts people in their place,

00:07:56.220 let's say, when they deserve it.

00:07:59.360 And also, she's also extremely compassionate

00:08:03.620 towards those who need it,

00:08:06.540 but not towards those who don't.

00:08:08.600 So your mom was unbelievably responsive to you guys

00:08:11.280 when you were infants.

00:08:12.380 So how did you experience the difference in our temperaments,

00:08:14.840 you and your friends?

00:08:15.660 And at least...

00:08:18.100 When you were younger?

00:08:19.160 Well, when people came over,

00:08:20.960 they used to be initially afraid of you.

00:08:24.060 Like, oh, you know, Jordan.

00:08:25.680 But then when they got to know you,

00:08:26.960 that would switch over to mom.

00:08:29.460 So that's one example.

00:08:31.680 How else?

00:08:32.520 If I needed to get a yes from a parent,

00:08:35.720 I would probably go to you.

00:08:37.840 That was very sneaky and treacherous of you.

00:08:40.540 So was there a downside to that?

00:08:42.760 The fact that I would be more likely to say yes

00:08:45.020 and an upside to your mother's propensity to say no?

00:08:50.280 Everything was so muddled together

00:08:51.800 because of how sick I was that it's difficult to say.

00:08:56.100 So...

00:08:56.320 Is a disagreeable person more likely to tell you something

00:09:00.340 that they see as an issue to discuss

00:09:07.280 that might be sensitive than someone?

00:09:09.560 Yeah.

00:09:09.840 Definitely.

00:09:10.260 And so that's truth, right?

00:09:13.140 That's truth.

00:09:14.020 Yeah, yeah.

00:09:14.520 Well, and the relationship

00:09:15.520 between disagreeableness and truth

00:09:19.340 is an interesting one.

00:09:20.640 The thing about disagreeable people

00:09:22.160 is because they're, in some sense,

00:09:24.800 a little bit more out for themselves

00:09:27.040 and are more likely to bargain

00:09:29.460 on the part of themselves

00:09:31.000 than on someone else's part

00:09:32.460 is that they might be more tempted

00:09:34.120 towards deceit

00:09:35.740 that was self-serving directly,

00:09:37.540 whereas an agreeable person

00:09:38.740 would be more tempted

00:09:39.680 to, like, smooth over the truth

00:09:41.960 and make everything nice

00:09:42.980 so no one's feelings get hurt.

00:09:44.500 Yeah, both those don't work out well.

00:09:46.280 No, well, it's nice to have a dialogue.

00:09:48.760 Yes.

00:09:49.360 Right.

00:09:50.100 Both those don't work out well.

00:09:51.800 On their own.

00:09:53.080 You know, as your differences on agreeableness,

00:09:55.240 and this is true for all the personality dimensions,

00:09:57.180 maybe except neuroticism,

00:09:58.500 as you're, as the gap between you

00:10:01.940 when you're in a couple increases,

00:10:04.260 it's also increasingly difficult

00:10:06.000 for people to understand each other

00:10:07.560 because they don't understand their motivation.

00:10:09.880 So the agreeable person will be running around

00:10:11.480 doing everything for everyone

00:10:12.660 and making things nice,

00:10:14.120 and the disagreeable person

00:10:15.620 will be more competitive and blunt

00:10:17.720 and, well, and less likely to do such things.

00:10:22.020 And so they can misunderstand

00:10:24.620 and misinterpret each other quite easily.

00:10:27.820 So I'm going to just read a couple of sentences

00:10:30.740 so people can get an idea

00:10:31.920 of what you get out of this report

00:10:33.120 because this is the amount.

00:10:35.740 Okay, so you basically do

00:10:37.400 the Understand Myself personality test.

00:10:39.600 You get two people to do that

00:10:40.640 and then you can hook it up online.

00:10:42.200 And I told dad that he should be charging for this

00:10:46.300 because I'm running his business

00:10:48.960 and this shouldn't be a free product.

00:10:51.460 However, it is a free product.

00:10:53.300 You just hook up your results.

00:10:54.780 So if you've already taken it,

00:10:55.780 you can hook up your results with other people.

00:10:57.320 But there's probably how many words here?

00:11:02.340 4,000, 8,000?

00:11:03.940 Like 4,000 words.

00:11:06.580 It's a real detailed report.

00:11:08.640 Well, part of what we did,

00:11:10.620 we spent years building the couple's reports.

00:11:15.840 There's probably 100,000 words behind it

00:11:19.480 because there's 10 aspects

00:11:21.420 that people are compared on.

00:11:22.620 And then there's five different groups

00:11:25.500 you can fall into,

00:11:27.280 you know, way above average,

00:11:29.160 above average, average, etc.

00:11:31.560 And so the program generates the report

00:11:34.600 based on your placement

00:11:36.480 on a normal distribution,

00:11:38.500 percentile essentially.

00:11:39.540 And so there's a tremendous amount of writing

00:11:41.780 and work that went into this.

00:11:42.940 It's the equivalent of at least two books,

00:11:45.360 I would say.

00:11:46.500 We were going to launch it

00:11:48.240 with a relative fanfare,

00:11:50.780 let's say,

00:11:51.380 but I got extremely ill

00:11:54.260 and we couldn't do that.

00:11:57.220 And so we decided to release it anyway

00:11:59.820 because we thought it was in people's best interest.

00:12:02.020 And we're actually pretty happy with the sales.

00:12:04.420 And so, but yes, it's a major feature.

00:12:06.400 It's the only personality test I know of

00:12:08.060 and certainly the only scientifically validated test

00:12:10.300 that actually offers people a direct comparison

00:12:13.960 with a report based on that comparison

00:12:16.460 between them and their partner.

00:12:17.720 And we're hoping it'll be extremely useful for people

00:12:20.460 because you need to understand

00:12:22.300 that there are temperamental differences

00:12:23.980 and you need to understand what they are.

00:12:27.280 And then you need to understand

00:12:28.460 and appreciate your differences and similarities

00:12:30.660 and figure out how to negotiate them.

00:12:32.780 Very complicated for people.

00:12:34.980 So I think what we should do,

00:12:36.400 because we're going to be seriously delving into this,

00:12:38.420 I think I should kind of give a brief overview

00:12:40.320 of what it's going to look like.

00:12:41.540 And then we get into each trait.

00:12:43.920 So we just looked at agreeableness.

00:12:45.820 Agreeableness breaks down into compassion and politeness.

00:12:51.620 So we'll do a comparison between agreeableness overall

00:12:54.520 and then dad's compassion level,

00:12:56.580 mom's compassion level,

00:12:57.460 dad's politeness level, mom's politeness level.

00:12:59.260 So when he said 10 aspects,

00:13:01.700 it does the five, openness, conscientiousness,

00:13:05.600 extroversion, agreeableness, and neuroticism,

00:13:08.060 breaks all those into two aspects

00:13:10.840 and then gives you a comparison.

00:13:13.040 It's a lot of information here.

00:13:14.200 And that's based on an instrument

00:13:15.600 called the Big Five Aspect Scale,

00:13:17.920 which I developed with my students,

00:13:20.140 particularly Colin DeYoung,

00:13:21.380 who was lead author on that paper.

00:13:22.800 And it's become one of the standard means

00:13:26.660 of assessing personality psychometrically

00:13:29.360 in the research literature

00:13:30.480 and also has been used by now tens of thousands of people online.

00:13:34.520 So I think it's reasonable to say that

00:13:36.420 it's the best personality instrument currently available

00:13:40.520 in terms of the breadth and the detail of its coverage.

00:13:44.180 And it's certainly the only one

00:13:45.340 that offers this couple's comparison.

00:13:46.840 So do you guys think I should just

00:13:49.320 like kind of burn through some of this

00:13:51.440 and you can stop me?

00:13:52.820 Yeah, well, just that you can just ask questions

00:13:54.380 and yeah, that'd be fine.

00:13:56.040 So let's go to, so we covered agreeableness.

00:13:58.100 Agreeableness breaks into compassion, politeness,

00:14:00.280 compassion.

00:14:00.820 Dad, you scored 96th percentile

00:14:02.660 and mom, you scored 48th percentile.

00:14:05.280 So some of the information you get here,

00:14:09.140 this is you.

00:14:09.700 You are likely to be highly conflict-averse

00:14:13.660 because you'll be concerned about causing your partner negative emotion.

00:14:16.780 Your partner, mom, is likely to be capable of engaging in conflict

00:14:21.000 and he or she will be a bit less concerned

00:14:23.760 about causing you negative emotion.

00:14:25.660 So that's one sentence out of, you know, a large paragraph

00:14:28.960 just describing the implications of compassion as a couple.

00:14:32.340 So I'm going to just keep going

00:14:33.640 and you, maybe mom too,

00:14:36.380 comment if you want to comment about what this kind of thing means.

00:14:40.600 Dad, you scored.

00:14:41.720 Well, I had to learn to, I would say, engage in conflict,

00:14:45.600 especially when it conflicts with compassion.

00:14:49.080 I've been in a lot of conflict

00:14:50.720 and I don't find it pleasant

00:14:53.180 and I don't like upsetting people at all.

00:14:56.340 It really bothers me.

00:14:58.400 And, but I did learn that conflict avoided

00:15:01.360 is conflict delayed and magnified.

00:15:03.920 And so it was a cross-temperamental learning process for me.

00:15:10.160 I had to learn to work against my temperament

00:15:12.480 in order to engage in conflict that was necessary

00:15:15.180 when it was necessary.

00:15:17.780 And so that conflict probably perhaps came more naturally to your mother

00:15:22.520 or with less internal opposition.

00:15:25.320 Yeah, I don't think it, I don't think it bothered me as much.

00:15:28.720 But we always worked through our problems until we had resolution.

00:15:33.220 And you were very, you were very persistent

00:15:37.500 in making sure that we found our resolution.

00:15:41.140 And I don't know exactly what that was about

00:15:43.120 if it had anything to do with your personality.

00:15:46.380 Well, I think partly, weirdly enough,

00:15:48.160 it was a consequence of my dislike of conflict.

00:15:51.780 I thought, oh my God, we have a problem here.

00:15:54.320 It's an actual problem.

00:15:55.440 It's going to happen every day or every week or every month

00:15:58.280 for the rest of our bloody lives.

00:15:59.800 It's, let's hash it out right now,

00:16:01.920 despite the fact that that will make me sweat

00:16:03.780 and raise my blood pressure and exhaust me.

00:16:06.360 Because if we could actually negotiate our way through it

00:16:09.580 and come to a solution,

00:16:11.620 we wouldn't have to have a fight anymore.

00:16:13.920 Yeah, and that worked.

00:16:15.100 We went through our problems

00:16:16.380 and we still continue to go through our problems.

00:16:18.560 We don't rehash stuff all the time.

00:16:21.060 No, well, we made rules too.

00:16:22.700 Like when we were talking about an issue,

00:16:25.360 it might've been something as trivial as

00:16:27.040 who was going to clean up the bathroom sink

00:16:29.580 and how quickly after they used it.

00:16:32.240 Part of the rule was we focus on the specific issue

00:16:36.240 so you don't get to say,

00:16:38.060 well, you never cleaned up the sink

00:16:39.740 and you're always leaving things around

00:16:41.420 and you've done this your whole life

00:16:43.240 and you'll never change,

00:16:44.640 which is a really bad negotiating strategy.

00:16:46.640 It was like, okay,

00:16:48.980 apparently we have a problem with the sink.

00:16:50.680 That might've been because of our differences

00:16:52.260 and orderliness, which we'll get together.

00:16:53.980 It's like, what is it that you want specifically done

00:16:58.000 about this specific thing?

00:17:01.020 And then we would negotiate back and forth

00:17:02.920 until both of us were satisfied.

00:17:05.340 And we used to have meetings with you kids once a week.

00:17:07.980 I don't know if you remember.

00:17:09.140 On Sundays.

00:17:09.460 I vividly remember.

00:17:10.780 Why do you vividly?

00:17:11.580 Like in a PTSD type of thing.

00:17:12.740 Oh, because you wanted to go out and play.

00:17:14.520 I'm just kidding.

00:17:15.260 Yeah, well, we'd sort out the week's responsibilities

00:17:19.360 at this meeting.

00:17:20.400 And the meeting had rules,

00:17:21.540 which was, well, there's some jobs that need to be done

00:17:24.260 and everybody has to play a role in doing them

00:17:27.620 so that nobody gets resentful and bitter.

00:17:30.160 And you have to attend the meeting,

00:17:32.060 although you can leave if you get upset,

00:17:33.800 but you have to come back

00:17:35.040 and you have to abide by what you say,

00:17:38.320 what you agree to.

00:17:40.100 And so don't need to...

00:17:41.120 For the week.

00:17:41.620 So it wasn't a big ask, right?

00:17:43.960 Seven days.

00:17:44.600 But that's a long time for a kid.

00:17:45.920 It is a long time.

00:17:46.640 Yeah, well, and people generally

00:17:48.040 don't have meetings of that sort.

00:17:49.320 And one of the rules was,

00:17:50.360 and this has been a rule that Tammy and I have used

00:17:52.100 in our whole relationship,

00:17:53.240 is like, do not agree to something you don't agree to.

00:17:58.380 Because the worst thing is,

00:17:59.600 is you negotiate out a settlement

00:18:01.000 and the person decides they're going to implement it,

00:18:03.300 but really they're resentful about it

00:18:04.820 because they didn't want to have any conflict.

00:18:06.840 And then they're crabby about it

00:18:08.600 every time they do it

00:18:09.420 and they do a terrible job

00:18:10.580 and they're irritated about it

00:18:11.760 and that lasts forever.

00:18:13.660 So none of that.

00:18:15.220 So that's a good rules.

00:18:16.360 Do not agree to things you do not agree with.

00:18:20.180 And if you're agreeable,

00:18:21.980 you'll say yes

00:18:22.840 and then you'll get resentful.

00:18:24.220 And that's the bitter

00:18:25.120 and horrible underside of empathy.

00:18:27.880 I could add to that too.

00:18:29.780 If you're in a situation

00:18:30.960 where you feel like you have to say yes

00:18:33.340 as an agreeable person,

00:18:35.340 say you need some time.

00:18:37.740 Yes.

00:18:38.320 Because I use that trick.

00:18:39.560 I mean, I'm way better now.

00:18:41.700 I don't have issues with saying no at all anymore.

00:18:43.920 But when I was younger

00:18:44.800 and more concerned about other people's feelings,

00:18:46.860 I guess,

00:18:47.700 I started saying,

00:18:49.400 you know,

00:18:49.700 I can't make that decision right now.

00:18:51.160 I'm not comfortable.

00:18:52.000 You say,

00:18:52.340 I'm not comfortable making that decision right now

00:18:54.200 or can I have till tomorrow?

00:18:56.680 Yes.

00:18:57.020 Yeah, well, that's not a trick,

00:18:58.220 I would say.

00:18:58.880 That's a good,

00:18:59.660 that's a wise strategy.

00:19:01.060 And we also learned in our relationship

00:19:02.800 often to discuss things

00:19:04.460 and then let both parties sleep on it.

00:19:07.900 And if you go to sleep

00:19:08.820 with the intent of

00:19:10.060 further clarifying the negotiation,

00:19:13.140 then you often wake up in the morning

00:19:15.500 with something to say,

00:19:17.360 you know,

00:19:17.680 that might also cause further conflict.

00:19:19.500 But it's part of the means

00:19:20.760 by which you reach

00:19:22.040 a peaceful negotiated settlement.

00:19:25.780 I mean, Tammy,

00:19:26.500 you remember when we were first together,

00:19:28.980 we'd have a conflict

00:19:29.920 about some deep thing usually.

00:19:31.920 For about three days.

00:19:32.980 Yeah.

00:19:33.460 Once a week.

00:19:34.240 Well, and then, yeah.

00:19:35.300 For a year.

00:19:36.280 Yeah.

00:19:37.000 More than that even probably.

00:19:38.460 No, it was for the first year.

00:19:39.340 Well, often I'd be trying

00:19:43.160 to work through this

00:19:44.020 and it would be at night

00:19:45.840 and Tammy would say,

00:19:46.940 I have to go to sleep now,

00:19:48.620 which drove me crazy.

00:19:49.740 I'd be up like persisting

00:19:52.620 on the internal discussion.

00:19:54.280 She'd be sound asleep beside me,

00:19:56.000 which was extremely annoying.

00:19:59.120 But she would very frequently

00:20:01.240 wake up in the morning

00:20:02.200 with something to say

00:20:04.440 that was helpful

00:20:05.180 or with a dream

00:20:06.420 that related to that.

00:20:07.480 Well, those kind of pauses

00:20:09.600 that you take when you sleep

00:20:11.080 allow, it allowed me to reflect

00:20:15.160 and find out what I may have brought

00:20:17.080 to the situation

00:20:17.920 and that always helped.

00:20:19.400 Yeah, well, that was another thing

00:20:20.520 we did constantly too,

00:20:22.120 which was to try to figure out

00:20:23.400 how, you know,

00:20:26.760 I would sit on the end of my bed

00:20:28.940 and Tammy did this as well

00:20:30.420 when we were having a fight

00:20:32.540 and think, okay,

00:20:33.240 what stupid thing did I do

00:20:36.560 at some point

00:20:37.560 in the lead up to this discussion

00:20:41.540 that increased the probability

00:20:44.460 that this would be

00:20:45.500 unpleasantly conflictual

00:20:46.940 and that's interfering

00:20:48.160 with the solution.

00:20:49.720 And man,

00:20:50.320 if you ask yourself that question,

00:20:52.100 you'll get an answer

00:20:52.900 and then you can offer that answer

00:20:54.380 to the person.

00:20:55.060 You can say, look,

00:20:56.440 despite the fact

00:20:57.360 that you're utterly wrong

00:20:58.680 and that this is horrible

00:20:59.660 and you should just listen to me

00:21:00.980 because that's what you like to think,

00:21:03.340 you could say,

00:21:03.960 well, here I figured out

00:21:04.960 something I did

00:21:05.640 that was not optimal

00:21:07.040 or maybe outright wrong

00:21:09.120 and it's complicating it

00:21:10.380 and so, like,

00:21:11.380 sorry about that

00:21:12.240 and you have to mean that

00:21:13.760 and if you have any sense,

00:21:14.820 you do

00:21:15.100 and then we could progress.

00:21:16.360 Yeah, that was a great strategy

00:21:17.640 because I think it

00:21:18.720 not only deals

00:21:20.440 with the situation at hand

00:21:21.860 but it deals with

00:21:23.380 behavioral patterns

00:21:25.420 that you've had

00:21:26.440 since childhood

00:21:27.340 that sometimes

00:21:29.620 don't work anymore

00:21:30.880 and in the conflict

00:21:33.100 you can see the discord

00:21:34.760 and you wonder

00:21:35.440 what you may have brought to it

00:21:37.020 so then that can shed some light

00:21:38.540 on past behaviors

00:21:41.980 and then you can update them

00:21:43.360 through the negotiation.

00:21:45.340 Well, yeah,

00:21:45.780 that's a huge part

00:21:46.460 of what you're doing

00:21:46.980 in negotiation

00:21:47.500 is that update.

00:21:48.940 It's also the case

00:21:49.920 that if you concentrate

00:21:50.900 on your stupidity,

00:21:52.700 you now have a problem

00:21:53.900 that you could solve

00:21:54.920 whereas you really can't

00:21:55.920 solve the problem

00:21:56.660 of your partner's stupidity.

00:21:57.980 You know,

00:21:58.640 you can negotiate

00:21:59.700 and you can discuss it

00:22:00.840 but really that's

00:22:02.220 well,

00:22:02.520 that's in their domain.

00:22:04.980 So you should really pray

00:22:06.120 to be enlightened

00:22:06.980 about your own ignorance

00:22:08.060 and limitations

00:22:08.880 and error

00:22:09.460 because you can get rid of that

00:22:11.540 with good faith

00:22:13.160 and through negotiation.

00:22:14.780 People are not good

00:22:15.480 at negotiating.

00:22:17.360 One thing too

00:22:18.100 you can offer your partner,

00:22:19.480 we did this a lot too,

00:22:20.620 is like,

00:22:22.400 okay,

00:22:23.480 looks like I'm

00:22:24.900 in the wrong here.

00:22:26.440 What do I have to say?

00:22:28.300 What words do I have to say

00:22:30.420 to you right now

00:22:31.620 that will satisfy you?

00:22:33.660 And you might think,

00:22:34.560 well,

00:22:35.440 if you love me,

00:22:36.400 you'd know

00:22:36.900 or you should figure out

00:22:38.240 the words on your own.

00:22:39.220 It's like,

00:22:39.540 no, I'm stupid.

00:22:40.860 You tell me,

00:22:41.860 I'll wander through

00:22:43.740 these words awkwardly

00:22:45.080 and artificially

00:22:46.220 because I'm not very good at it

00:22:47.960 and maybe I'll get better

00:22:48.920 at it in the future.

00:22:50.040 You can give your partner

00:22:50.920 that gift, right?

00:22:51.880 You offer them

00:22:52.660 conditions

00:22:53.500 for your satisfaction.

00:22:55.760 What do you want?

00:22:56.500 That also forces you

00:22:57.940 to specify

00:22:58.600 what you want.

00:23:01.360 You have to ask yourself,

00:23:02.560 like,

00:23:02.780 you're upset.

00:23:03.440 Okay,

00:23:03.820 what do you want?

00:23:04.880 Well,

00:23:05.100 I don't know.

00:23:05.740 Fair enough.

00:23:06.300 We can talk about it.

00:23:07.700 And then maybe you identify

00:23:08.720 if it's,

00:23:09.980 well,

00:23:10.120 I want you to suffer

00:23:11.280 and then that can pop

00:23:12.460 into your head

00:23:12.920 and you're like,

00:23:13.280 oh,

00:23:13.460 maybe I'm contributing

00:23:14.240 to the problem too.

00:23:15.260 Yeah,

00:23:15.460 maybe.

00:23:16.160 Right.

00:23:16.740 Yeah.

00:23:17.380 Okay,

00:23:17.680 next.

00:23:19.060 We're still in agreeableness.

00:23:20.280 Yeah.

00:23:20.360 We're still in agreeableness.

00:23:22.020 You are high in politeness.

00:23:23.660 This is my favorite aspect.

00:23:25.280 And you are low in politeness.

00:23:27.020 So you scored 85th percentile,

00:23:28.760 dad,

00:23:29.420 and mom's scored 16th percentile.

00:23:32.280 Oh my God.

00:23:33.300 Right.

00:23:33.700 That's a big difference.

00:23:34.640 Yeah,

00:23:34.940 big difference.

00:23:35.320 There's big differences.

00:23:36.760 That's a big difference

00:23:37.720 between us,

00:23:38.660 yes.

00:23:39.120 And I noticed this often

00:23:41.000 when we were fighting,

00:23:43.240 arguing,

00:23:43.940 because Tammy would say something

00:23:47.440 so outrageous and impolite

00:23:50.020 and then she would top it

00:23:51.300 with like another thing

00:23:52.280 that was even more outrageous

00:23:54.080 and impolite

00:23:54.720 and then with another

00:23:56.220 and they were usually,

00:23:59.200 and impolite people

00:23:59.900 can be very funny,

00:24:01.160 they were usually so over the top

00:24:02.800 that it would make me laugh,

00:24:04.460 you know,

00:24:04.980 but it was,

00:24:06.000 that impoliteness,

00:24:07.400 that does cause friction

00:24:08.300 in our relationship

00:24:09.060 because she's more likely

00:24:10.080 to be curt

00:24:10.780 and mom's pretty curt.

00:24:13.080 Yeah.

00:24:13.480 Yeah.

00:24:13.760 Yeah.

00:24:13.920 And pretty blunt.

00:24:14.800 And blunt.

00:24:15.260 And so,

00:24:15.700 you know,

00:24:16.180 I'll try to do something

00:24:17.020 nice for her

00:24:17.700 and she'll say something

00:24:20.220 curt or blunt

00:24:20.940 and then,

00:24:22.120 you know,

00:24:22.300 that hurts my feelings

00:24:23.560 and,

00:24:23.840 but,

00:24:24.980 but yeah,

00:24:26.320 well,

00:24:26.720 c'est la vie,

00:24:27.260 you know,

00:24:27.640 but you're pretty damn funny

00:24:28.940 and I think I like

00:24:30.080 that provocativeness too.

00:24:31.800 I'm trying to be more kind

00:24:32.620 and loving.

00:24:33.240 Yeah,

00:24:33.480 well.

00:24:34.020 I have a better relationship

00:24:35.600 now with my conscience

00:24:37.840 or with my intuition

00:24:40.120 or my higher power.

00:24:41.580 I have a better relationship

00:24:42.580 and I'm trying to,

00:24:44.280 because,

00:24:45.320 you know,

00:24:45.480 all of us have these personalities

00:24:46.860 we're given.

00:24:48.100 We're wrestling with.

00:24:48.880 And then,

00:24:49.780 you know,

00:24:50.180 do I want to be that blunt?

00:24:51.500 Well,

00:24:51.720 in some situations,

00:24:53.180 yes,

00:24:53.740 you know,

00:24:54.140 but in a personal situation

00:24:56.200 with someone I love,

00:24:57.540 well,

00:24:57.880 no.

00:24:58.680 Yeah.

00:24:59.200 I do.

00:24:59.560 I feel like that.

00:25:00.520 I don't want that.

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00:26:39.600 Yeah, and with regards

00:26:41.300 to this distribution,

00:26:42.880 like we all have temptations

00:26:44.900 towards certain sins

00:26:46.140 and what we've been gifted

00:26:48.640 certain virtues

00:26:49.640 that make it easy for us.

00:26:51.020 And it's really useful

00:26:51.880 to understand that temperamentally.

00:26:53.420 Like an extroverted person

00:26:54.640 is going to find it easy

00:26:56.440 to be social.

00:26:57.820 But an introverted person

00:26:59.320 is going to have to learn.

00:27:00.500 Oh, I've had to learn a lot.

00:27:02.100 Right.

00:27:02.540 And especially now

00:27:03.460 that he's a public figure,

00:27:04.680 for me to be involved in that,

00:27:07.260 I've had to learn a lot

00:27:08.280 about being in a situation

00:27:10.420 with people I don't know

00:27:11.520 and striking up a conversation.

00:27:13.680 Yeah, and you're getting good at that.

00:27:15.160 Introverts can get unbelievably

00:27:16.440 socially skilled,

00:27:17.340 but they have to learn it consciously.

00:27:19.280 And that bluntness

00:27:21.120 and impoliteness,

00:27:21.980 I do believe that that was part

00:27:23.580 of what attracted me to you

00:27:24.900 to begin with

00:27:25.720 because you were teasy

00:27:27.860 and there's a playful element

00:27:29.560 to that or there can be

00:27:30.760 even though it's like harsh play.

00:27:32.460 Right.

00:27:33.020 It's like playing with a dog

00:27:34.620 who might bite you,

00:27:35.640 but a playful dog.

00:27:37.440 And I really admired the fact

00:27:39.280 that you weren't a pushover

00:27:40.940 like ever since.

00:27:42.080 Yeah.

00:27:42.600 Right.

00:27:43.820 Yeah.

00:27:44.520 Someone taught us

00:27:45.340 how to do that.

00:27:45.900 We're pretty good

00:27:46.160 at barking actually.

00:27:47.100 Yeah, yeah.

00:27:48.040 You inhale when you bark.

00:27:49.320 Oh, row, row, row.

00:27:51.340 Mom?

00:27:51.940 We can even fool dogs.

00:27:52.660 You started this fiasco.

00:27:57.700 Okay.

00:27:58.440 I think moving on.

00:28:00.800 I think that we should,

00:28:02.160 I'm going to skip a couple.

00:28:02.960 Let's do extroversion

00:28:03.660 because we were talking about that.

00:28:04.780 Oh, yeah, let's.

00:28:05.720 Yeah.

00:28:06.500 So dad scored 98th percentile

00:28:09.060 in extroversion,

00:28:09.800 which is extremely high.

00:28:11.560 And mom scored 88th percentile

00:28:13.920 in extroversion,

00:28:14.720 which is also very high.

00:28:17.900 So let's start with enthusiasm.

00:28:20.260 I guess enthusiasm is fun.

00:28:21.360 You guys were actually fairly close.

00:28:22.900 92th percentile for dad

00:28:24.180 and 86th percentile for mom.

00:28:27.480 Yeah, well,

00:28:27.880 that's one of the things

00:28:28.840 that's actually made

00:28:29.640 our relationship easy.

00:28:32.420 Dangerous.

00:28:33.100 Yeah.

00:28:33.740 Yeah.

00:28:34.040 Yeah, both of those.

00:28:34.940 But the thing about your mom

00:28:36.340 is that if I offer her an adventure,

00:28:39.940 she'll say yes.

00:28:40.640 Yes, that's fun.

00:28:41.740 Yeah, because she's enthusiastic.

00:28:43.500 So, for example,

00:28:44.180 earlier this year

00:28:45.180 when I was still extremely ill,

00:28:47.660 we started talking about

00:28:48.840 this upcoming tour in 2022

00:28:50.700 and it's a major undertaking.

00:28:52.060 I think we've got 150 cities

00:28:54.240 slotted or something.

00:28:55.400 And I...

00:28:56.460 What?

00:28:57.280 Well, I don't know.

00:28:58.480 It's lots.

00:28:59.140 A hundred anyways.

00:29:00.400 Wow.

00:29:01.460 That's a lot.

00:29:02.040 And I asked her

00:29:02.840 if she wanted to do this

00:29:04.560 because she seemed enthusiastic

00:29:05.980 during the discussion

00:29:06.960 with Creative Artists Agency

00:29:08.580 who is helping arrange this.

00:29:10.240 Yeah, and, you know,

00:29:12.440 she just about died two years ago

00:29:14.740 and then, like,

00:29:16.560 I wished I was dead

00:29:17.540 for, like,

00:29:18.040 most of the last two years.

00:29:19.640 And so,

00:29:21.200 and we had no idea, really,

00:29:22.600 if I was going to be able

00:29:23.660 to manage this at that time.

00:29:25.720 But we thought

00:29:26.240 we better get on

00:29:26.940 with our lives anyways.

00:29:27.800 But your mom

00:29:28.440 is always up for an adventure.

00:29:31.040 And I had faith, too,

00:29:32.080 that you would be better

00:29:33.520 as well.

00:29:35.080 I really did.

00:29:36.460 Yeah, so that's been

00:29:37.240 really helpful for us

00:29:38.380 because my life

00:29:39.860 has been pretty wild

00:29:40.740 in many ways

00:29:41.460 and, but with a tremendous

00:29:43.600 amount of opportunity.

00:29:44.880 And your mom,

00:29:46.440 despite her lower agreeableness,

00:29:48.840 if there's an adventure

00:29:50.600 to be had,

00:29:52.100 she's on board with it.

00:29:54.160 And, you know,

00:29:54.740 you might think

00:29:55.260 88th percentile

00:29:56.360 and 98th percentile

00:29:58.020 aren't that different.

00:29:58.880 But if there were

00:30:00.640 a hundred people in the room,

00:30:01.980 I'd be more extroverted

00:30:02.940 than two of them,

00:30:04.200 than all but two of them.

00:30:05.680 Whereas your mom

00:30:06.680 would only be more extroverted

00:30:07.960 than one in ten.

00:30:10.220 So it's the difference

00:30:10.940 between one in 50

00:30:11.840 and one in ten.

00:30:12.620 It's still a big difference.

00:30:14.040 Percentiles are sort of

00:30:15.020 misleading that way.

00:30:16.320 But, because, say,

00:30:17.680 if you have 98th

00:30:18.700 and 99th percentile

00:30:19.920 in extroversion,

00:30:22.360 the 98th percentile person

00:30:23.940 is more extroverted

00:30:25.260 than 49 out of 50,

00:30:27.280 or 49 out of 50.

00:30:29.940 But the 99th percentile person

00:30:32.100 is more extroverted

00:30:32.840 than 99 out of 100.

00:30:34.820 Twice.

00:30:35.620 So that's, in some sense,

00:30:36.880 twice as extroverted.

00:30:38.780 I scored 99.

00:30:40.740 99.

00:30:41.580 Yeah, I scored 99.

00:30:42.660 But I'm way less

00:30:44.420 polite than you.

00:30:45.620 And I think that has

00:30:46.420 a lot to do with

00:30:47.220 the differences here.

00:30:49.220 Yeah, that's a temptation

00:30:50.400 towards narcissism,

00:30:51.840 that high level

00:30:53.040 of extroversion

00:30:53.700 and relatively low level

00:30:54.920 of agreeableness.

00:30:55.500 So you want that

00:30:56.480 moderated by conscientiousness.

00:30:57.980 I scored high in compassion.

00:30:59.280 Yeah, well,

00:30:59.880 that makes a difference, too.

00:31:00.960 Yeah, that makes a difference, too.

00:31:02.860 Yeah, yeah.

00:31:04.640 So, well,

00:31:05.260 and we saw this difference

00:31:06.440 in you and Julian

00:31:07.560 because you could not,

00:31:09.820 not tell us anything.

00:31:11.660 You told us everything

00:31:12.780 and you always wanted

00:31:13.880 to be around people.

00:31:15.200 Whereas Julian

00:31:16.000 was more reserved

00:31:17.860 and he was certainly,

00:31:19.260 his proclivity,

00:31:20.140 and his proclivity

00:31:21.720 was to not tell us things,

00:31:25.260 to maintain privacy.

00:31:26.840 And now we could see

00:31:27.500 that when he was

00:31:28.200 three, two.

00:31:30.100 Yeah, we could see

00:31:30.760 those differences

00:31:31.280 extremely,

00:31:32.020 those differences

00:31:32.620 are there extremely early.

00:31:34.840 I was also a bit confused

00:31:36.200 because you said

00:31:36.780 tell the truth

00:31:37.620 no matter what.

00:31:39.920 Yeah, it wasn't a bad thing.

00:31:41.820 We thought,

00:31:42.280 well, Michaela,

00:31:43.100 you could keep some of that

00:31:44.080 to yourself

00:31:44.560 and that would be okay.

00:31:45.480 Well, it's a tricky thing

00:31:46.480 to figure out

00:31:47.120 when you're not saying something

00:31:49.100 because you're lying

00:31:50.080 and when you're not

00:31:50.780 saying something

00:31:51.340 because you have

00:31:52.280 a right to privacy.

00:31:53.920 It's a tricky thing

00:31:54.900 to sort out.

00:31:55.640 Yeah.

00:31:57.180 Okay, so extroversion

00:31:58.740 breaks down into

00:31:59.740 enthusiasm and assertiveness.

00:32:02.180 We did enthusiasm.

00:32:04.360 Assertiveness,

00:32:05.500 99th percentile,

00:32:07.340 dad,

00:32:08.640 and 81st percentile,

00:32:10.160 mom.

00:32:10.720 I didn't realize

00:32:11.340 you were so extroverted.

00:32:13.640 I guess there's

00:32:14.340 quite a difference

00:32:14.860 between 80th,

00:32:16.040 88th, and 99th.

00:32:17.380 Yeah.

00:32:18.120 Yeah, and also

00:32:18.840 you're extremely extroverted

00:32:20.780 and so by comparison

00:32:21.960 your mom looks

00:32:22.720 less so.

00:32:23.500 Wow.

00:32:24.520 Wow.

00:32:25.780 Yeah, that's just

00:32:26.560 how extroverted you are.

00:32:28.260 Okay.

00:32:28.440 Yeah, well,

00:32:28.680 there's a huge difference

00:32:29.560 at the upper ends

00:32:30.340 of the distribution.

00:32:31.080 Like you think,

00:32:31.960 what's the difference

00:32:32.660 between 99 and 99.9?

00:32:34.880 It's like,

00:32:35.280 it's nothing,

00:32:35.740 it's 0.9.

00:32:36.400 It's no,

00:32:37.220 it's the difference

00:32:37.820 between 1 in 100

00:32:38.660 and 1 in 1,000.

00:32:39.820 So if you got,

00:32:40.840 if you're at 99.9

00:32:41.960 and you got 10 99th percentile

00:32:44.360 extroverted people

00:32:45.220 in the room,

00:32:45.660 you would be

00:32:46.100 the noisiest person.

00:32:48.480 So, and that,

00:32:49.100 Yikes.

00:32:49.500 Yeah, and there's no,

00:32:50.460 that doesn't,

00:32:50.980 that doesn't diminish

00:32:52.080 at the upper ends.

00:32:53.900 Yeah, yeah.

00:32:54.780 And so assertiveness,

00:32:56.620 I think part of the,

00:32:57.640 other part of the reason

00:32:58.700 why I can engage

00:33:00.000 in conflict resolution

00:33:01.060 is because I,

00:33:02.320 I will talk about things

00:33:03.740 as people may have noticed.

00:33:05.380 Maybe, maybe, yeah.

00:33:06.480 Yeah.

00:33:06.840 And maybe you also understand

00:33:08.520 that having the conflict now,

00:33:10.460 like you said,

00:33:11.740 is going to prevent

00:33:13.000 conflict in the future.

00:33:14.100 And so it's actually

00:33:15.340 more of an agreeable thing

00:33:16.340 to, to have less conflict,

00:33:18.120 which would be addressing it now.

00:33:19.620 Yes, if the,

00:33:20.080 in the long run.

00:33:20.920 Yeah.

00:33:21.480 But I find,

00:33:23.440 you know,

00:33:23.780 when I do my podcast,

00:33:24.680 people sometimes criticize me

00:33:26.820 for interrupting.

00:33:27.760 And that's this

00:33:28.760 extroverted assertiveness.

00:33:30.560 When, when I'm listening

00:33:31.400 to a conversation,

00:33:32.660 questions are popping up

00:33:34.060 in my mind like mad.

00:33:35.240 It's part of verbal fluency.

00:33:36.560 And like,

00:33:37.860 I need to ask them.

00:33:39.320 I need to ask them.

00:33:40.600 It's, it's a real impulse

00:33:41.780 and that's deeply rooted

00:33:42.820 temperamental impulse.

00:33:43.740 And I've always been

00:33:44.660 unbelievably talkative

00:33:46.300 right from the time

00:33:47.060 I was two.

00:33:48.240 I think they called me

00:33:48.900 motor mouth when I was a kid.

00:33:50.580 My cousin called me

00:33:51.540 motor mouth

00:33:51.960 and that kind of caught on.

00:33:53.620 So now that'll be a meme.

00:33:55.420 I, I presume.

00:33:57.040 I wouldn't underestimate

00:33:58.300 Zoom too.

00:33:59.400 I mean, we're having a conversation.

00:34:00.660 You're not interrupting.

00:34:01.400 I'd say there's enough

00:34:02.020 of a delay on Zoom

00:34:03.240 that you end up interrupting

00:34:04.680 when you're not.

00:34:05.580 Well, that's especially true

00:34:06.960 if you're assertive

00:34:07.760 and enthusiastic

00:34:08.600 because this is,

00:34:10.880 Tam's pretty extroverted,

00:34:11.820 but you and I

00:34:12.380 are talking more.

00:34:13.600 And the reason for that

00:34:14.700 is that her lag

00:34:16.620 to first utterance

00:34:18.060 is maybe

00:34:19.020 a half a second

00:34:20.240 longer than ours.

00:34:21.700 Ours is negative,

00:34:22.700 negative one?

00:34:23.400 Exactly.

00:34:24.020 Yeah.

00:34:24.380 Exactly.

00:34:24.980 So I learned

00:34:25.620 when we were disciplining

00:34:26.660 the kids,

00:34:27.440 I often disciplined

00:34:28.500 you guys first.

00:34:31.660 Assertiveness likely.

00:34:33.300 Neuroticism.

00:34:33.820 Well, I don't think so,

00:34:36.360 but very funny.

00:34:38.040 But I learned

00:34:39.060 that if I could just shut up

00:34:40.420 for like five seconds,

00:34:42.420 that whatever annoying thing

00:34:44.060 was going on

00:34:44.720 would annoy your mother

00:34:45.580 and then she would,

00:34:46.760 she would intervene.

00:34:49.160 But if we just left it

00:34:50.960 to the natural course

00:34:52.160 of things,

00:34:52.760 the relatively,

00:34:54.260 well, the difference

00:34:54.760 in extroversion between us,

00:34:56.460 at least in relationship

00:34:57.440 to that,

00:34:57.980 was enough so that

00:34:58.580 I would end up doing

00:34:59.320 most of the discipline.

00:35:01.060 That wasn't, well.

00:35:01.880 Is that what you remember?

00:35:03.820 Yes.

00:35:08.620 Verified.

00:35:09.560 Verified, yes.

00:35:10.640 Verified.

00:35:11.380 Just as an impolite person

00:35:13.040 would insist upon.

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00:36:20.380 That's shopify.com

00:36:21.680 slash jbp.

00:36:22.740 We interrupt your playlist

00:36:26.180 to bring you breaking news.

00:36:27.700 Tim's classic breakfast sandwiches

00:36:28.980 are just $3

00:36:29.840 when you buy any size coffee.

00:36:31.720 You heard that right,

00:36:32.620 $3.

00:36:33.420 Your mornings will never be the same.

00:36:35.400 Plus tax,

00:36:35.880 Canada only,

00:36:36.460 limited time only,

00:36:37.120 terms apply,

00:36:37.620 see app for details.

00:36:38.600 It's time for Tim's.

00:36:42.180 Okay, conscientiousness.

00:36:45.480 Dad scored 97th

00:36:47.640 and mom scored 83rd.

00:36:49.680 And then let's break it down.

00:36:53.980 I think it breaks down

00:36:56.300 into industriousness

00:36:57.440 and orderliness.

00:36:59.180 And then Dad,

00:37:00.280 do you want to give

00:37:00.620 like a two second explanation

00:37:02.940 of industriousness

00:37:03.780 and orderliness?

00:37:04.980 Sure.

00:37:05.320 Well, orderliness

00:37:06.820 is associated

00:37:07.620 with disgust sensitivity

00:37:09.060 at the emotional level.

00:37:11.580 And orderly people

00:37:13.160 don't like things

00:37:14.200 that shouldn't be touching,

00:37:15.680 touching.

00:37:16.400 They like things

00:37:17.360 where they should be.

00:37:18.400 They like everything

00:37:19.160 organized.

00:37:19.860 They're more likely

00:37:20.400 to have a schedule.

00:37:22.860 Mess bothers them viscerally,

00:37:25.140 just like disgust does.

00:37:27.700 Tammy,

00:37:28.560 what's our scores there?

00:37:29.960 Yeah, you can't talk

00:37:30.700 about me yet.

00:37:31.480 We don't have our scores up.

00:37:32.980 Industry.

00:37:33.380 Watch it.

00:37:37.380 So you,

00:37:38.440 Dad scored 99th

00:37:39.340 and mom scored 96th.

00:37:41.380 Wow.

00:37:42.160 Cool.

00:37:44.180 That's an interesting

00:37:45.160 difference there too

00:37:46.020 because that makes me

00:37:46.920 one in 100

00:37:47.520 on that dimension

00:37:48.340 and her one in 25.

00:37:50.600 And so.

00:37:51.140 Wow.

00:37:51.420 It doesn't make any sense

00:37:52.400 really, does it?

00:37:53.500 What if I had.

00:37:54.440 It would make sense

00:37:55.160 if we showed.

00:37:56.180 It would make sense

00:37:56.720 if we showed.

00:37:57.100 Yeah, well then there'd be

00:37:57.200 a huge difference.

00:37:58.180 Then you'd be one in three.

00:37:59.920 Yeah.

00:38:00.720 Right.

00:38:01.420 And so like I,

00:38:02.480 it left to my own devices.

00:38:03.560 I would just work

00:38:04.080 all the time.

00:38:04.980 Yeah.

00:38:05.680 And there are lots of people

00:38:06.640 like that.

00:38:06.960 I could get a key

00:38:06.980 and just lock you in there.

00:38:08.400 Yeah.

00:38:08.840 Well, we kind of did that

00:38:10.540 in my office

00:38:11.740 because we learned.

00:38:13.420 No, I learned.

00:38:14.180 You go ahead.

00:38:14.780 Tell, you can tell that story.

00:38:15.960 You went,

00:38:16.420 when you went to work

00:38:17.220 you didn't want to be interrupted

00:38:18.720 so I didn't interrupt you.

00:38:20.720 So you could be there

00:38:21.680 for hours and hours and hours.

00:38:23.800 Yeah.

00:38:24.100 And then I,

00:38:25.080 I'm kind of fascinated

00:38:26.260 by how you can do

00:38:28.040 as much as possible

00:38:29.000 in the shortest possible

00:38:29.980 period of time.

00:38:30.780 And that's always

00:38:31.660 kind of a game for me

00:38:32.660 and that's associated

00:38:33.480 with industriousness.

00:38:34.480 I like to work.

00:38:35.600 I would work all the time

00:38:36.760 pretty much.

00:38:37.720 I'm getting better at

00:38:38.980 leaving that with recreation,

00:38:41.780 especially artistic recreation.

00:38:44.460 And I like to spend time

00:38:45.600 with your mom

00:38:46.020 and you guys

00:38:46.840 so that,

00:38:47.440 those were,

00:38:48.020 those were good breaks.

00:38:50.780 And I have a much

00:38:52.000 more balanced life.

00:38:54.140 Yeah.

00:38:54.360 I have a much more balanced

00:38:56.180 day-to-day experience.

00:39:01.080 Yeah, that was especially true

00:39:02.600 years ago.

00:39:02.700 And that was good for you.

00:39:04.180 Yeah, definitely.

00:39:04.860 Because you learned

00:39:05.460 how to do some things

00:39:06.360 besides work.

00:39:07.360 Yeah.

00:39:07.780 Well, I also trained myself

00:39:09.200 when I was in,

00:39:09.960 especially in graduate school

00:39:11.040 to really work.

00:39:12.220 I wanted to see,

00:39:13.380 I spent like five years

00:39:15.040 pushing the limits

00:39:16.960 of my ability to work.

00:39:18.540 And then I figured out

00:39:19.560 how to pull back

00:39:20.220 a little bit from that

00:39:21.200 because I was exhausted.

00:39:22.480 I think when you're young,

00:39:23.720 it's really useful

00:39:24.400 for about two years

00:39:25.540 or three years

00:39:26.160 to work yourself

00:39:27.940 to the point of exhaustion,

00:39:29.200 to find out

00:39:30.560 where that limit is

00:39:31.660 and then dial back.

00:39:32.900 And when you're young,

00:39:33.560 you can kind of stand it

00:39:34.560 because you're healthy

00:39:35.200 as long as you don't

00:39:35.940 drink too much, etc.

00:39:37.480 But it's really useful

00:39:38.640 to test that out.

00:39:39.660 And so these career-obsessed people,

00:39:43.960 they tend to be extremely

00:39:44.940 high in industriousness.

00:39:46.240 And it's a precondition

00:39:47.240 for extreme success

00:39:48.740 in most endeavors.

00:39:51.760 Yeah.

00:39:52.480 It's like a game, right?

00:39:53.760 It's like a contest.

00:39:54.980 It's a contest, yeah.

00:39:55.940 Especially if you're

00:39:56.720 a little disagreeable too.

00:39:58.500 You know?

00:39:59.000 So in orderliness...

00:39:59.760 I found university that way.

00:40:01.480 Now, what's the difference

00:40:02.440 in orderliness between us?

00:40:03.780 Uh, dad, you scored...

00:40:06.080 This doesn't seem right.

00:40:08.840 You scored 80th

00:40:09.780 and mom scored 41st.

00:40:11.960 But mom was...

00:40:14.660 I think it was more aesthetics

00:40:16.320 than orderliness.

00:40:17.640 That's what I think.

00:40:18.940 So openness?

00:40:19.940 I liked beauty.

00:40:21.240 Oh, that's interesting.

00:40:23.280 Yeah, I still really like beauty.

00:40:25.020 It might have also been some...

00:40:26.280 And your disagreeableness

00:40:27.140 probably made you

00:40:27.900 less attached to objects.

00:40:29.420 Yes.

00:40:29.680 Oh, yeah.

00:40:30.020 Yes, definitely.

00:40:30.580 I'm not attached to anything.

00:40:32.080 Yeah, that's another thing.

00:40:34.580 Baby pictures, baby books.

00:40:36.060 I went outside one day.

00:40:38.000 I've got those if you want them.

00:40:38.720 I went...

00:40:39.220 Yeah, I should just give them to me

00:40:40.320 like out of my house.

00:40:41.240 I went outside one day

00:40:42.340 and I had this one book

00:40:43.920 where I'd drawn little figures in.

00:40:45.500 It was like,

00:40:45.980 I'm, you know,

00:40:46.980 however many centimeters tall

00:40:48.500 and this is my name

00:40:49.720 and I'm five.

00:40:50.640 And it was just sitting

00:40:51.440 on the sidewalk.

00:40:52.980 Mom was cleaning house.

00:40:54.540 Yeah, yeah.

00:40:55.200 Your mom...

00:40:55.940 I think it is...

00:40:56.420 She doesn't love me?

00:40:57.540 I think it is lower...

00:40:59.180 That lower agreeableness.

00:41:00.140 I mean, Tammy's very good at...

00:41:01.620 Thank goodness.

00:41:02.560 At getting rid of unnecessary things.

00:41:05.380 And I know that was,

00:41:06.600 you know,

00:41:06.920 perhaps not unnecessary.

00:41:08.340 Where's Julian's?

00:41:09.280 It's not out either.

00:41:10.080 What is that supposed to mean?

00:41:12.440 But it does clear away the clutter

00:41:15.020 and we've accumulated a lot of things,

00:41:18.100 especially over the last few years

00:41:19.540 and your mom's ability

00:41:20.580 to not get sentimentally attached

00:41:23.020 to things unduly

00:41:24.060 has been instrumental

00:41:25.860 in us keeping our environs

00:41:28.180 functional

00:41:29.320 and hopefully beautiful

00:41:30.780 to the degree

00:41:31.320 we've been able to manage that.

00:41:32.480 Yeah, I don't know

00:41:33.100 how old you were

00:41:33.760 when I got rid of

00:41:34.680 all the large suitcases.

00:41:37.080 We could only have

00:41:37.820 small suitcases

00:41:38.640 and you could only take

00:41:39.700 that much stuff

00:41:40.660 no matter where you were going

00:41:41.760 or how long you were going for.

00:41:43.620 And that was part of...

00:41:45.680 It was cluttery to have...

00:41:47.380 We didn't have room

00:41:47.960 for big suitcases.

00:41:48.800 Okay, no more suitcases.

00:41:50.360 Yeah.

00:41:51.060 Yeah.

00:41:51.800 Yeah, they tour,

00:41:53.480 just so people know,

00:41:54.740 with a carry-on.

00:41:55.840 It's very impressive.

00:41:56.700 These outfits, carry on.

00:41:59.180 We interrupt your playlist

00:42:00.100 to bring you breaking news.

00:42:01.620 Tim's Classic Breakfast Sandwiches

00:42:03.040 are just $3

00:42:03.760 when you buy any size coffee.

00:42:05.640 You heard that right, $3.

00:42:07.340 Your mornings will never be the same.

00:42:09.320 Plus tax, Canada only,

00:42:10.360 limited time only,

00:42:11.040 terms apply,

00:42:11.540 see app for details.

00:42:12.500 It's time for Tim's.

00:42:16.320 Okay.

00:42:17.620 Let us continue.

00:42:19.300 Do you know what the stewardess

00:42:21.740 said to the vulture

00:42:22.600 when he tried to bring

00:42:23.860 three bags onto the plane?

00:42:26.880 Only two carry-ons allowed, sir.

00:42:29.440 Yeah.

00:42:30.020 I sent that to Reader's Digest

00:42:31.640 and I got a $100 check.

00:42:35.920 That makes the story

00:42:38.380 so much better.

00:42:39.920 Yes, it does.

00:42:41.120 Yeah, well,

00:42:41.560 I really liked Reader's Digest

00:42:42.600 when I was a kid.

00:42:43.620 You know,

00:42:43.780 it was a good magazine.

00:42:44.460 Oh, so did I.

00:42:45.060 I remember seeing

00:42:45.920 that it was written

00:42:46.680 in there for you.

00:42:47.600 Yeah.

00:42:48.460 Wow, I bet those are the...

00:42:49.640 People are going to be scrambling

00:42:50.640 to get their hands on those now.

00:42:52.600 We should have some of those.

00:42:54.220 Okay, anyway,

00:42:55.000 just try to make money

00:42:55.960 just in any way possible.

00:42:59.440 Okay.

00:43:01.040 We covered extroversion.

00:43:06.060 Enthusiasm is fun.

00:43:08.220 Assertiveness.

00:43:09.760 Enthusiasm,

00:43:10.280 that means to be possessed

00:43:11.260 by God, by the way.

00:43:12.860 Enthusiasm,

00:43:13.380 that should just say fun instead.

00:43:15.700 Enthusiasm or fun.

00:43:16.100 Yeah, it's a lot of

00:43:16.680 positive emotion in there.

00:43:18.560 Yeah.

00:43:19.040 Yeah.

00:43:19.580 Extroversion is the

00:43:20.220 positive emotion dimension.

00:43:21.540 And extroverts are fun

00:43:22.800 to be around.

00:43:23.580 I used to think

00:43:24.220 that enthusiasm meant

00:43:25.520 somebody knew

00:43:26.040 what they were doing,

00:43:26.680 but now I know

00:43:27.220 it's just enthusiasm

00:43:28.180 and I can discount it.

00:43:29.900 Them being like,

00:43:30.380 that's a great idea.

00:43:31.240 That's a great idea.

00:43:32.060 Here's the plan.

00:43:32.860 Let's do it.

00:43:33.880 Fantastic.

00:43:34.700 Yeah.

00:43:35.000 Like, oh, wow.

00:43:35.940 Okay.

00:43:36.240 You're really into this.

00:43:37.220 That's why you need to...

00:43:38.100 You're into everything.

00:43:38.920 Yeah, exactly.

00:43:39.960 Every idea is good.

00:43:41.240 Yeah.

00:43:41.360 Well, too much enthusiasm

00:43:42.660 makes you manic.

00:43:44.340 I've had that issue a bit.

00:43:46.320 Yeah.

00:43:46.620 Yeah.

00:43:46.780 It makes you manic.

00:43:47.520 So every trait pushed

00:43:49.480 to its extreme

00:43:50.240 can degenerate

00:43:51.180 into a pathology.

00:43:52.240 And that's true

00:43:52.780 of all of them.

00:43:53.500 You might think

00:43:54.020 you can't be too creative.

00:43:55.280 It's like,

00:43:56.160 oh, yes, you can.

00:43:58.060 You see patterns everywhere

00:43:59.460 even when they're not there.

00:44:02.300 So, and it's very difficult

00:44:03.820 for highly creative people

00:44:05.100 to catalyze an identity

00:44:06.320 because they're interested

00:44:07.100 in everything.

00:44:07.840 That's different

00:44:08.440 than being enthusiastic

00:44:09.400 about everything.

00:44:10.260 You can be interested

00:44:11.040 in everything

00:44:11.400 without thinking,

00:44:12.200 everything's a great idea

00:44:13.460 and let's get on it.

00:44:14.440 Or you can be both.

00:44:15.540 Well, extroverts are impulsive.

00:44:18.700 And fun.

00:44:19.740 Yeah, well,

00:44:20.440 and it's certainly the case

00:44:22.240 that you can have too much fun.

00:44:23.460 One of the things

00:44:24.040 that was painful

00:44:24.620 about having children

00:44:25.500 was the realization

00:44:26.800 of how much time

00:44:28.160 you spend disciplining them

00:44:30.440 because they're having

00:44:31.560 too much fun

00:44:32.440 because they run around

00:44:33.560 and, you know,

00:44:34.300 they get too excited

00:44:36.120 and then they wear themselves out

00:44:38.000 or they trip over things

00:44:39.860 or bump into each other.

00:44:41.180 It's like, settle down,

00:44:42.280 settle down.

00:44:42.980 You think,

00:44:43.300 I'm educating my children

00:44:44.360 not to be happy.

00:44:45.540 It's like,

00:44:46.860 well, everything

00:44:47.780 has its limits.

00:44:49.660 I'm happy.

00:44:51.320 That's good.

00:44:53.620 Okay.

00:44:55.000 Neuroticism.

00:44:55.920 Actually, first,

00:44:56.960 quick question.

00:44:57.880 What happens

00:44:58.440 in couples

00:44:59.960 if you have

00:45:00.680 one person

00:45:01.820 who's super extroverted

00:45:03.780 and one person

00:45:04.560 who's not?

00:45:05.600 Because that to me

00:45:06.280 seems like...

00:45:06.500 Well, my mom and dad,

00:45:07.240 my dad was probably

00:45:08.320 as extroverted

00:45:09.040 as you guys

00:45:09.760 because he was

00:45:10.560 super extroverted.

00:45:11.480 my mother

00:45:12.720 was not...

00:45:13.800 Is super extroverted.

00:45:14.480 Is, yeah.

00:45:14.940 He's still now...

00:45:15.540 He's 90

00:45:16.080 and still funny.

00:45:18.120 Yeah.

00:45:18.600 And he's the life

00:45:19.560 of the party, man.

00:45:20.440 And he was the life

00:45:21.160 of the party

00:45:21.640 in Fairview.

00:45:22.380 Yeah.

00:45:22.620 I think your dad was...

00:45:23.460 His whole life, I imagine.

00:45:23.820 I think your dad

00:45:24.420 was the most extroverted

00:45:25.620 person in our town.

00:45:27.680 Seemed that way, yeah.

00:45:28.780 I mean, he was...

00:45:30.460 And there was

00:45:31.220 about 3,000 people there.

00:45:32.360 He was way more extroverted

00:45:32.860 than I was.

00:45:34.240 Yeah, way more.

00:45:35.300 Way more.

00:45:35.920 I was always quite surprised

00:45:38.520 by his enthusiasm

00:45:40.580 and his goal

00:45:42.540 of just doing anything.

00:45:43.900 And he was low

00:45:44.600 in agreeableness, too.

00:45:45.840 Super, like,

00:45:46.860 low in politeness.

00:45:47.820 Yeah.

00:45:48.140 Yes.

00:45:48.640 And he's hilarious.

00:45:50.040 Yeah, he is.

00:45:50.840 Yeah, but you don't...

00:45:51.600 Yeah, and he'll tell you

00:45:52.660 what he thinks, too,

00:45:53.860 man, even kids.

00:45:55.160 Yeah.

00:45:55.400 It's like,

00:45:55.980 I told my kids,

00:45:57.060 don't do anything

00:45:59.360 to annoy your grandfather.

00:46:01.720 He will not forgive you.

00:46:04.460 And you were good.

00:46:05.420 You were good.

00:46:06.300 But, yeah.

00:46:06.580 But my mother

00:46:07.060 was very quiet.

00:46:08.200 Yeah, unbelievably introverted.

00:46:08.940 And I don't think

00:46:09.680 she would have known anyone

00:46:10.600 if it weren't for my father.

00:46:12.740 Because he brought people to her.

00:46:15.140 And I don't think

00:46:15.960 she had the...

00:46:18.900 Temperament.

00:46:19.660 Temperament

00:46:20.100 to bring people to her.

00:46:21.400 She didn't.

00:46:22.400 She didn't.

00:46:23.020 So, thank God

00:46:24.260 that she found him

00:46:25.540 and that he found her.

00:46:26.680 Yeah, and introverts

00:46:27.500 get worn out

00:46:28.240 by social interaction

00:46:29.400 and they need to go

00:46:30.400 have a break

00:46:32.040 fairly frequently,

00:46:33.280 whereas extroverts

00:46:33.920 get energized.

00:46:35.820 And so, yeah,

00:46:36.360 it was tricky

00:46:36.780 for your mom and dad

00:46:37.560 because it was hard

00:46:38.320 for them to bridge that gap

00:46:39.620 because your dad

00:46:40.160 was always out socializing.

00:46:41.780 Yes.

00:46:42.240 And your mom enjoyed that

00:46:43.180 and she thought

00:46:43.740 he was funny.

00:46:44.740 But she was very introverted.

00:46:46.180 She didn't go out

00:46:47.420 with him.

00:46:49.000 And she didn't really

00:46:49.940 go out and make friends

00:46:50.740 on her own either.

00:46:51.960 You know,

00:46:52.400 through sports.

00:46:53.900 And that's something

00:46:54.720 that she did

00:46:55.440 was sports.

00:46:56.220 Even though she was introverted,

00:46:57.560 she could act out

00:46:59.040 something.

00:47:00.560 Open.

00:47:00.800 But not...

00:47:01.280 Yeah, maybe more open.

00:47:02.740 Yeah, because that can

00:47:03.540 sometimes override it, right?

00:47:04.820 If you're an introvert

00:47:05.580 but you're high in openness.

00:47:06.940 Well, she was actually

00:47:07.660 a good athlete too

00:47:08.540 so that helped a lot.

00:47:09.540 It was a domain

00:47:10.060 of competence for her.

00:47:11.760 And that's a kind

00:47:13.000 of social activity, right?

00:47:14.260 It's not sitting around

00:47:14.940 talking, which extroverts

00:47:16.040 will do.

00:47:16.500 It was going out

00:47:17.580 and doing things

00:47:18.440 with people.

00:47:19.680 And so that's something

00:47:20.380 for introverts

00:47:20.980 to consider too.

00:47:21.880 It's a good avenue

00:47:22.660 to social interaction,

00:47:24.340 shared activity

00:47:25.100 rather than mere

00:47:26.740 socialized conversation.

00:47:28.240 Like dancing.

00:47:28.840 They went dancing.

00:47:29.780 Yeah?

00:47:30.420 Oh yeah.

00:47:30.740 You bet.

00:47:31.180 You bet.

00:47:31.580 They curled together.

00:47:32.540 They golfed together.

00:47:34.320 And mom went and watched

00:47:35.280 all the sports that dad did,

00:47:36.660 hockey and baseball.

00:47:38.600 And so she was out

00:47:40.040 with people

00:47:40.680 when he was doing things

00:47:42.440 and then when she was

00:47:43.320 a little older

00:47:43.800 she was doing them too

00:47:44.860 and did very well

00:47:46.560 with them.

00:47:47.600 Yeah.

00:47:47.800 My dad,

00:47:48.820 my mom is extremely

00:47:49.820 high in enthusiasm

00:47:50.740 and my dad is

00:47:51.760 very low in enthusiasm

00:47:53.200 although he's

00:47:53.900 quite assertive.

00:47:55.040 Makes him a complicated

00:47:55.960 character because

00:47:56.820 he's half extroverted

00:47:58.660 and half introverted.

00:48:00.280 And so he was difficult

00:48:01.020 to understand in that way.

00:48:02.900 But it's difficult

00:48:04.320 to rouse dad

00:48:05.260 to enthusiasm

00:48:05.940 for any activity.

00:48:07.860 And that's hard

00:48:09.140 on my mom

00:48:09.620 because she's

00:48:10.480 really enthusiastic

00:48:11.620 and really

00:48:12.300 and less assertive

00:48:13.620 although

00:48:14.160 not unassertive.

00:48:16.200 And so

00:48:16.540 that was

00:48:17.800 has been a point

00:48:18.920 of conflict

00:48:19.460 between them

00:48:20.300 and their relationship.

00:48:23.140 Okay.

00:48:26.180 Neuroticism.

00:48:26.660 So you scored 74th.

00:48:29.960 Yeah.

00:48:30.300 I was probably still

00:48:31.020 pretty sick

00:48:31.500 when I took this test.

00:48:32.660 And I

00:48:33.200 so I've done this

00:48:34.760 a number of times

00:48:35.720 throughout my life.

00:48:36.540 I know it says

00:48:37.040 clearly on the website

00:48:37.740 you can only take this once

00:48:38.880 which is terrible marketing.

00:48:41.620 Just pay for this once.

00:48:43.000 I don't think that's true.

00:48:43.480 I don't think it's true.

00:48:44.480 You go through life changes

00:48:45.560 you can do it again.

00:48:46.420 Right.

00:48:46.780 But you should

00:48:47.580 there should be a gap

00:48:48.520 between the times

00:48:49.280 you take it.

00:48:49.960 Oh yeah.

00:48:50.300 You can't just repeatedly

00:48:51.240 take it till you end up

00:48:52.140 with the personality

00:48:52.740 you don't have

00:48:53.520 but you want.

00:48:54.120 Yeah for sure.

00:48:55.200 Well that's

00:48:55.640 that's really why

00:48:56.300 we built that caution in there.

00:48:58.200 Let's just say

00:48:58.500 just don't cheat.

00:48:59.400 If you just

00:48:59.680 repeatedly answer

00:49:00.840 the questions honestly

00:49:01.740 because I did this

00:49:02.800 when I was young

00:49:03.540 and it was pretty much

00:49:04.260 the same

00:49:04.600 but when my depression

00:49:05.420 went away

00:49:06.000 my neuroticism plummeted.

00:49:08.640 So the withdrawal

00:49:09.580 aspect too

00:49:10.540 but also the volatility

00:49:13.060 went way down.

00:49:14.440 Well depression

00:49:14.720 is a modulation

00:49:16.300 of your neuroticism

00:49:17.600 in some sense

00:49:18.280 and so it's always

00:49:19.080 been difficult for me

00:49:20.060 to answer

00:49:20.940 the neuroticism questions

00:49:22.180 because when I'm healthy

00:49:23.640 I'm low in withdrawal

00:49:25.560 and I'm low in volatility

00:49:26.980 but when I'm unhealthy

00:49:28.360 well both of that

00:49:29.820 mounts up

00:49:30.440 and so then the question is

00:49:31.820 because I've had

00:49:32.800 some repeated bouts

00:49:33.740 of depression

00:49:34.340 the question is

00:49:35.520 well who are you

00:49:37.200 and the answer is

00:49:38.640 well it depends

00:49:39.080 on whether or not

00:49:39.600 I'm depressed.

00:49:40.940 Yeah.

00:49:41.300 So it's hard to answer.

00:49:44.980 But I think

00:49:45.840 oh and this is

00:49:46.980 you can tell me

00:49:47.560 if this comment is wrong

00:49:48.560 but I think

00:49:49.700 people can get along

00:49:50.620 with a variety

00:49:51.280 of different personality traits

00:49:52.620 right

00:49:53.240 but if you have

00:49:54.300 two neurotic people

00:49:56.000 yeah

00:49:56.500 I just try and find

00:49:58.240 I remember

00:49:58.800 seeing my score

00:49:59.760 and my score

00:50:00.240 in neuroticism

00:50:00.820 was like 90 something

00:50:01.780 I was like

00:50:02.860 okay the only

00:50:03.900 there's certain

00:50:05.100 personality traits

00:50:05.840 I wanted to mate

00:50:06.520 but I definitely

00:50:07.220 can't be with

00:50:07.880 another neurotic person.

00:50:09.340 Well women initiate

00:50:10.760 about 75% of divorces

00:50:12.780 and there are

00:50:14.780 multiple reasons

00:50:15.460 for that

00:50:15.780 but one reason is

00:50:16.980 is that women

00:50:17.480 are higher

00:50:17.960 in trait neuroticism

00:50:18.980 they're more sensitive

00:50:19.960 to negative emotion

00:50:20.940 so they feel

00:50:21.920 more units

00:50:22.640 of negative emotion

00:50:23.760 subjectively

00:50:25.040 per unit of stress

00:50:26.400 that's a way

00:50:26.900 of thinking about it

00:50:27.660 and so they get

00:50:28.260 unhappy faster

00:50:29.320 now why is that?

00:50:32.120 Well

00:50:32.400 the jury's out on that

00:50:34.300 but some possible reasons

00:50:35.560 it seems to kick in

00:50:36.500 at puberty

00:50:36.900 because it's not true

00:50:37.800 for boys and girls

00:50:38.660 they're smaller

00:50:39.820 their upper bodies

00:50:41.220 aren't as strong

00:50:41.960 they're not likely

00:50:43.280 to win physical contests

00:50:45.220 especially with men

00:50:46.420 especially with tough men

00:50:47.820 despite the Marvel movies

00:50:49.400 and so the world

00:50:51.140 is more dangerous

00:50:51.900 for them

00:50:52.400 in some sense

00:50:53.280 physically

00:50:53.700 but I think

00:50:54.220 more importantly

00:50:55.040 is the fact

00:50:56.380 that they are going

00:50:58.600 to bear primary

00:50:59.500 responsibility

00:51:00.280 for dependent infants

00:51:01.660 and if you have

00:51:02.760 an infant

00:51:03.120 depending on you

00:51:04.080 you should react

00:51:05.600 to the world

00:51:06.060 as if it's more dangerous

00:51:07.240 than you might

00:51:08.240 if it was just

00:51:09.040 you navigating

00:51:10.060 through it

00:51:10.880 so now

00:51:12.040 the downside

00:51:13.560 of that

00:51:14.040 for the people

00:51:14.800 who have to live

00:51:15.440 with women

00:51:15.900 and for women

00:51:16.680 themselves

00:51:17.020 is that

00:51:17.660 they're more likely

00:51:18.520 to get upset

00:51:19.260 they're more likely

00:51:20.160 to make a big deal

00:51:21.040 out of something

00:51:21.760 statistically speaking

00:51:23.240 there's plenty of men

00:51:25.100 who are more neurotic

00:51:25.940 than plenty of women

00:51:27.020 but on average

00:51:27.900 that's the case

00:51:28.660 that's just the worst

00:51:30.020 I'm just going to put it

00:51:30.800 out there

00:51:31.060 that is the most

00:51:32.080 yeah well it's useful

00:51:42.540 it's useful for men

00:51:43.040 to understand this

00:51:44.080 you know

00:51:44.400 because

00:51:44.860 women

00:51:45.960 I got mom

00:51:46.760 oh Michaela

00:51:48.820 that's extroversion

00:51:51.260 talking away

00:51:52.220 and then realizing

00:51:53.180 what she's saying

00:51:54.020 yeah

00:51:54.500 yeah

00:51:55.500 yeah that's for sure

00:51:56.760 did you know

00:51:58.320 side note

00:51:59.080 shying away from this

00:52:00.360 have you heard of

00:52:01.940 the vasopressin

00:52:02.900 and oxytocin

00:52:03.740 for bonding

00:52:04.380 which is really

00:52:05.460 interesting

00:52:05.900 so vasopressin

00:52:06.780 is released

00:52:07.300 when there's stress

00:52:09.580 and men tend to bond

00:52:12.580 when that chemical

00:52:13.580 is released

00:52:14.100 so

00:52:14.900 which isn't that

00:52:15.960 interesting

00:52:16.280 so you can stress

00:52:17.160 out a man

00:52:17.720 in a situation

00:52:18.500 and that'll

00:52:20.000 increase

00:52:20.800 bonding

00:52:21.460 reconciliation

00:52:21.940 bonding yeah

00:52:22.720 it seems

00:52:23.000 but for women

00:52:24.200 it's oxytocin

00:52:25.860 that's really involved

00:52:26.760 with bonding

00:52:27.280 so what you want

00:52:28.100 to do

00:52:28.400 for a woman

00:52:29.000 is make her

00:52:29.600 feel safe

00:52:30.300 yes

00:52:30.720 so it's interesting

00:52:31.560 isn't that interesting

00:52:32.840 they did a bunch

00:52:33.440 of studies on voles

00:52:34.380 too

00:52:34.620 shot them full

00:52:35.260 of oxytocin

00:52:36.180 and vasopressin

00:52:36.800 to see what

00:52:37.260 happened

00:52:37.660 but that's

00:52:38.620 that's so cool

00:52:39.400 so you can be

00:52:40.000 more neurotic

00:52:40.660 you can get away

00:52:41.240 with being more

00:52:41.800 neurotic as a woman

00:52:42.520 if you're with

00:52:43.280 a man who's

00:52:44.100 more stable

00:52:44.720 and potentially

00:52:46.560 according to voles

00:52:47.940 that might even

00:52:49.580 increase bonding

00:52:50.360 if you can

00:52:50.920 if the man

00:52:51.620 can take away

00:52:52.180 some of the woman's

00:52:52.820 kind of problems

00:52:53.540 and make her feel

00:52:54.080 calmer

00:52:54.480 yeah well I think

00:52:55.520 that's highly likely

00:52:56.680 highly probable

00:52:57.580 that yeah

00:52:58.700 and so I think

00:52:59.680 when I'm healthy

00:53:01.160 I'm low in withdrawal

00:53:02.980 and a little higher

00:53:04.660 in volatility

00:53:05.160 but low in withdrawal

00:53:06.280 because I don't

00:53:07.700 you're not as low

00:53:08.540 as me though

00:53:09.060 fear doesn't stop

00:53:10.640 me from doing things

00:53:11.960 yeah so this

00:53:13.460 I would say

00:53:14.280 when you did this

00:53:15.200 because you scored

00:53:15.760 80th and that's

00:53:16.540 just not true

00:53:17.120 because you wouldn't

00:53:17.800 do a world tour

00:53:18.820 and meet all these

00:53:19.360 people if that

00:53:19.980 was the case

00:53:20.420 you just stay at home

00:53:21.140 right

00:53:21.640 you scored a third

00:53:23.080 yes I have no withdrawal

00:53:25.520 so we're kind

00:53:27.020 we're a little bit

00:53:28.580 the sex differences

00:53:30.880 here

00:53:31.440 are

00:53:32.380 turned around

00:53:33.540 yeah I know

00:53:34.120 that's that's

00:53:34.840 yeah well

00:53:35.400 and so that means

00:53:36.360 that

00:53:36.760 when we

00:53:38.620 have a disagreement

00:53:40.460 for where

00:53:41.600 whatever it is

00:53:42.560 caused by

00:53:43.360 my need

00:53:44.700 for safety

00:53:45.360 being a woman

00:53:46.140 and

00:53:47.820 your need

00:53:48.600 for being

00:53:49.340 having some

00:53:53.060 sort of

00:53:53.560 reconciliation

00:53:54.180 is kind

00:53:56.880 of backwards

00:53:57.440 yeah well

00:53:57.920 your mum

00:53:58.340 has a

00:53:59.120 relatively

00:53:59.920 masculine temperament

00:54:00.980 because she's

00:54:01.600 low in agreeableness

00:54:02.360 and low in neuroticism

00:54:03.580 and I have a

00:54:04.580 relatively feminine

00:54:05.500 temperament

00:54:06.060 especially when

00:54:06.700 I'm depressed

00:54:07.360 and so

00:54:08.480 and that's an

00:54:09.920 interesting

00:54:10.380 it's interesting

00:54:11.440 to consider that

00:54:12.640 in light of this

00:54:13.360 cultural argument

00:54:14.440 about sex

00:54:15.160 and gender

00:54:15.700 well there's

00:54:16.920 there's two sexes

00:54:17.860 let's be clear

00:54:18.500 about that

00:54:19.100 and there has

00:54:19.960 been for several

00:54:20.640 hundred million years

00:54:21.580 so there's actually

00:54:22.460 no dispute

00:54:23.400 about that

00:54:23.940 but there's

00:54:25.140 a lot of

00:54:25.600 variability

00:54:26.180 even biological

00:54:27.980 variability

00:54:28.640 at the temperamental

00:54:29.520 level

00:54:29.900 and so there's

00:54:30.760 plenty of

00:54:31.380 masculine women

00:54:32.120 and feminine

00:54:32.720 men

00:54:33.140 but that doesn't

00:54:34.020 mean they should

00:54:34.520 switch bodies

00:54:35.220 that's actually

00:54:35.840 the wrong

00:54:36.260 solution to

00:54:36.900 that problem

00:54:37.480 so

00:54:38.400 and that can

00:54:40.180 be true

00:54:40.500 even though

00:54:40.900 on average

00:54:41.540 women are

00:54:41.960 higher in

00:54:42.320 negative emotion

00:54:42.960 and higher

00:54:43.360 in agreeableness

00:54:44.060 okay

00:54:47.120 oh yeah

00:54:47.540 so neuroticism

00:54:48.480 I mean

00:54:48.920 one of the

00:54:50.840 problems there

00:54:51.480 is that people

00:54:52.000 who are higher

00:54:52.580 in negative emotion

00:54:53.740 and neuroticism

00:54:54.420 will tend

00:54:56.040 at least from

00:54:57.280 the perspective

00:54:57.900 of those lower

00:54:58.640 to make mountains

00:54:59.380 out of molehills

00:55:00.160 and so

00:55:00.620 it's a problem

00:55:02.440 that you deal

00:55:02.980 with in clinical

00:55:03.680 practice a lot

00:55:05.180 especially with

00:55:05.740 people who are

00:55:06.140 depressed

00:55:06.500 because any

00:55:07.220 failure

00:55:07.660 makes them think

00:55:09.360 they're a horrible

00:55:09.920 unworthy person

00:55:10.820 and that their

00:55:11.460 life isn't worth

00:55:12.140 living

00:55:12.460 and that's too

00:55:13.180 much of a reaction

00:55:13.940 to every problem

00:55:15.220 so part of

00:55:16.840 the way you

00:55:17.200 bind that

00:55:17.680 is you try

00:55:18.140 to make

00:55:18.500 the discussion

00:55:19.140 about the

00:55:19.640 smallest thing

00:55:20.600 it can possibly

00:55:21.560 be about

00:55:22.200 and I think

00:55:23.400 that's a good

00:55:23.880 guide to

00:55:24.300 political discussion

00:55:25.180 as well

00:55:25.680 everything's not

00:55:26.820 climate

00:55:27.360 local

00:55:27.880 local

00:55:28.660 local

00:55:29.300 specific

00:55:29.940 practical

00:55:30.700 actionable

00:55:31.880 negotiable

00:55:33.440 articulable

00:55:35.480 yeah

00:55:37.320 it's not

00:55:38.240 articulatable

00:55:40.100 yeah

00:55:40.520 I think it's

00:55:41.860 articulable

00:55:42.480 but maybe

00:55:43.400 it's neither

00:55:43.780 that's not a good

00:55:44.300 word to screw up

00:55:45.340 it isn't

00:55:45.760 no it's not

00:55:46.480 it's a stupid

00:55:47.080 word to screw up

00:55:47.880 I don't know

00:55:48.240 if that's a word

00:55:48.960 articulable

00:55:49.780 clearly spoken

00:55:50.800 okay

00:55:51.280 see the impolite

00:55:54.000 person corrected

00:55:54.800 me

00:55:55.220 dad's

00:55:59.080 dad's right

00:55:59.780 but you can

00:56:00.340 also see

00:56:00.800 articulable

00:56:01.440 I don't know

00:56:03.160 that word

00:56:03.460 yeah so there

00:56:04.080 are girlies

00:56:05.020 we learned

00:56:05.360 we learned

00:56:05.920 something

00:56:06.420 successful

00:56:07.220 podcast

00:56:07.780 well that's

00:56:08.340 me

00:56:08.580 enthusiasm

00:56:09.200 asking

00:56:10.380 that doesn't

00:56:11.420 make sense

00:56:11.860 tell me about

00:56:12.360 that

00:56:12.600 well that's

00:56:13.880 that provocative

00:56:14.460 part too

00:56:15.140 that's linked

00:56:15.660 to a sense

00:56:16.120 of humor

00:56:16.540 most

00:56:18.100 most

00:56:18.680 comedians

00:56:19.560 are low

00:56:19.900 in politeness

00:56:20.500 high in

00:56:21.580 compassion

00:56:22.000 though they

00:56:22.340 may still

00:56:22.780 be

00:56:23.000 they're low

00:56:23.420 in politeness

00:56:23.980 because they'll

00:56:24.400 say things

00:56:24.840 that no one

00:56:25.220 else would

00:56:25.540 say

00:56:25.780 and that's

00:56:27.080 funny

00:56:27.340 it's often

00:56:27.840 funny

00:56:28.240 openness

00:56:30.920 to experience

00:56:31.960 yep

00:56:33.740 that's

00:56:34.580 basically

00:56:34.980 the

00:56:35.240 creativity

00:56:35.740 dimension

00:56:36.340 essentially

00:56:37.620 that's

00:56:38.100 what people

00:56:38.480 people think

00:56:39.580 openness is

00:56:40.160 like how

00:56:41.020 willing you

00:56:41.560 are to

00:56:41.840 discuss

00:56:42.200 things

00:56:42.520 how open

00:56:43.060 it's

00:56:43.380 it's not

00:56:44.260 a great

00:56:44.580 name

00:56:44.880 the psychometricians

00:56:45.800 didn't nail

00:56:46.420 that one

00:56:46.820 well but it's a

00:56:47.540 hard one to get

00:56:48.140 right but

00:56:48.580 you can think of it

00:56:49.760 as creativity

00:56:51.020 and interest

00:56:51.600 in ideas

00:56:52.220 and that's

00:56:52.700 what it breaks

00:56:53.300 down to

00:56:53.680 experience

00:56:53.960 I think

00:56:54.420 yeah

00:56:55.020 if you just

00:56:55.640 yeah

00:56:56.160 openness to

00:56:56.720 experience

00:56:57.080 say the whole

00:56:57.520 thing

00:56:57.820 otherwise

00:56:58.280 it's

00:56:59.220 misunderstood

00:56:59.720 yeah

00:57:00.480 so dad

00:57:02.280 you scored

00:57:02.660 98th

00:57:03.220 overall

00:57:03.540 and mom

00:57:04.140 scored

00:57:04.500 68th

00:57:05.360 and that

00:57:06.460 breaks into

00:57:07.260 so when I

00:57:08.140 scroll down

00:57:08.600 here

00:57:08.920 actually I'll

00:57:09.400 show it on

00:57:09.700 the screen

00:57:10.160 but you can

00:57:11.060 see behavioral

00:57:11.880 roles

00:57:12.640 your virtues

00:57:14.180 and faults

00:57:14.900 as a couple

00:57:15.580 and that's

00:57:16.440 under

00:57:16.740 all these

00:57:18.580 different

00:57:18.860 personality

00:57:19.360 aspects

00:57:19.980 so intellect

00:57:22.400 that's the

00:57:22.920 first one

00:57:23.240 it breaks

00:57:23.540 into intellect

00:57:24.120 and then

00:57:24.940 openness

00:57:25.580 intellect

00:57:26.620 dad

00:57:26.940 you scored

00:57:27.280 97th

00:57:27.860 percentile

00:57:28.260 on intellect

00:57:28.800 mom scored

00:57:29.900 34th

00:57:30.500 percentile

00:57:30.980 on intellect

00:57:31.540 and that's

00:57:32.380 really

00:57:32.780 interest in

00:57:34.000 semantic

00:57:35.160 ideas

00:57:35.820 I would say

00:57:36.500 so people

00:57:37.300 high in

00:57:37.720 intellect

00:57:38.160 they're

00:57:38.840 philosophically

00:57:39.600 minded

00:57:40.000 they like

00:57:41.120 non-fiction

00:57:42.040 particularly

00:57:43.060 men are

00:57:45.300 likely to be

00:57:46.320 higher in

00:57:46.900 this intellect

00:57:48.100 than women

00:57:48.720 although women

00:57:49.260 are higher

00:57:49.700 in the other

00:57:50.440 aspect of

00:57:51.460 openness

00:57:51.900 which is more

00:57:52.780 interest in

00:57:53.420 aesthetics

00:57:53.820 and formal

00:57:54.800 creativity

00:57:55.280 and more

00:57:55.640 likely to

00:57:56.080 read fiction

00:57:56.620 and so

00:57:57.320 I'm really

00:57:58.260 really interested

00:57:59.120 in ideas

00:57:59.740 although I'm

00:58:00.740 also interested

00:58:01.380 in aesthetic

00:58:01.860 experience

00:58:02.420 and your mom

00:58:02.940 is definitely

00:58:03.520 less interested

00:58:05.120 in ideas

00:58:05.640 than I am

00:58:06.160 because I'm

00:58:06.540 obsessed by

00:58:07.220 them

00:58:07.440 you are

00:58:08.280 obsessed by

00:58:10.640 ideas

00:58:11.120 oh yeah

00:58:12.560 you notice

00:58:14.500 that some

00:58:15.100 people have

00:58:15.480 noticed that

00:58:16.080 yeah I mean

00:58:16.980 when I was

00:58:17.580 when I was

00:58:18.340 in graduate

00:58:18.900 school

00:58:19.300 I was

00:58:20.680 thinking

00:58:21.320 about ideas

00:58:22.820 at an

00:58:24.120 extremely

00:58:24.720 rapid rate

00:58:25.520 16 hours

00:58:26.420 a day

00:58:26.800 like it

00:58:27.200 was non-stop

00:58:28.020 the only

00:58:28.400 thing I

00:58:28.680 could do

00:58:28.920 to stop

00:58:29.380 it was

00:58:29.680 go lift

00:58:30.360 heavy weights

00:58:30.920 it was the

00:58:31.600 only thing

00:58:32.200 that and

00:58:32.620 alcohol

00:58:33.000 when you

00:58:33.740 were a little

00:58:34.140 kid

00:58:34.480 when I

00:58:34.960 knew you

00:58:35.240 when you

00:58:35.480 were 8

00:58:35.860 9

00:58:36.200 10

00:58:36.500 you seemed

00:58:38.080 very thoughtful

00:58:38.760 you seemed

00:58:39.620 very interested

00:58:40.960 in the books

00:58:41.720 that you were

00:58:42.180 reading

00:58:42.520 so the whole

00:58:43.640 ideas had

00:58:45.700 already begun

00:58:47.200 yeah I was

00:58:48.000 reading like

00:58:48.760 I always went

00:58:49.980 to bed

00:58:50.320 and read

00:58:51.180 I could read

00:58:51.820 a book a day

00:58:52.320 when I was a

00:58:52.840 kid

00:58:53.060 science fiction

00:58:53.940 book usually

00:58:54.460 but I read

00:58:54.920 a lot of

00:58:55.280 non-fiction

00:58:55.780 world book

00:58:56.460 encyclopedias

00:58:57.300 and I was

00:58:57.960 obsessed with

00:58:58.640 words

00:58:58.940 I couldn't

00:58:59.420 tie my

00:58:59.820 shoes up

00:59:00.340 the shoes

00:59:01.420 were on

00:59:01.720 a newspaper

00:59:02.340 an old

00:59:03.720 newspaper

00:59:04.160 you know

00:59:05.180 sitting in

00:59:05.560 the porch

00:59:05.900 I'd stop

00:59:06.580 and while

00:59:07.140 I was tying

00:59:07.460 my shoes

00:59:07.740 I'd read

00:59:08.100 all the

00:59:08.340 newspaper

00:59:08.660 articles

00:59:09.120 my brother

00:59:09.600 was the

00:59:10.000 same

00:59:10.200 I used

00:59:10.540 to do

00:59:10.800 that

00:59:10.940 he couldn't

00:59:11.280 get in

00:59:11.560 the house

00:59:11.920 because he'd

00:59:12.400 kneel down

00:59:12.820 take his

00:59:13.200 boots off

00:59:13.620 and there

00:59:13.880 he'd be

00:59:14.420 reading the

00:59:14.960 news

00:59:15.140 words

00:59:16.140 words in

00:59:17.040 combinations

00:59:17.560 I haven't

00:59:18.000 seen before

00:59:18.460 yeah

00:59:18.980 yeah

00:59:19.640 so

00:59:20.820 okay so

00:59:23.200 and then

00:59:23.560 there's open

00:59:24.080 then there's

00:59:24.680 the other

00:59:24.960 aspect of

00:59:25.940 openness

00:59:26.240 and what's

00:59:26.800 the differences

00:59:27.240 there

00:59:27.660 96th

00:59:29.280 for dad

00:59:30.780 and 87th

00:59:32.020 for mom

00:59:32.640 yeah and

00:59:33.080 that was a

00:59:33.540 pretty good

00:59:33.880 point of

00:59:34.280 contact for

00:59:35.620 us too

00:59:36.120 and so

00:59:36.500 for a long

00:59:37.660 time I

00:59:38.620 was obsessively

00:59:40.080 investigating and

00:59:41.080 buying art and

00:59:41.840 I bought like

00:59:42.360 400 paintings but

00:59:43.500 I whittled them

00:59:44.600 down from a

00:59:45.500 sub sample of

00:59:47.300 a larger sample

00:59:48.620 of say 4,000

00:59:49.580 so I'd go on

00:59:50.220 ebay and look at

00:59:50.940 like 2,000

00:59:52.220 paintings in an

00:59:53.000 evening which you

00:59:54.100 could do on ebay

00:59:54.800 which was really

00:59:55.400 cool and I

00:59:57.380 got so they had

00:59:57.960 good ones what I

00:59:58.820 thought were good

00:59:59.300 would sort of pop

00:59:59.960 out at me and

01:00:01.140 then I'd print them

01:00:01.840 out and lay them

01:00:02.560 on the floor and

01:00:03.640 your mom would

01:00:04.080 come in and

01:00:05.000 with her

01:00:05.320 unsentimental

01:00:06.280 and judgmental

01:00:07.080 eye and

01:00:07.900 slightly less

01:00:09.000 interest in

01:00:09.820 aesthetics we

01:00:11.520 would go through

01:00:12.120 them and I

01:00:13.060 would ask her

01:00:13.560 okay there's

01:00:14.200 10 here get

01:00:16.400 rid of the

01:00:17.040 worst one and

01:00:18.960 she was very

01:00:19.420 good at that

01:00:20.040 yeah it worked

01:00:20.780 really well

01:00:21.280 yeah she liked

01:00:21.940 that she liked

01:00:22.560 that's a good way

01:00:23.160 to pose it too

01:00:23.920 find the best

01:00:24.500 one nah get

01:00:25.080 rid of the worst

01:00:26.720 one yeah

01:00:27.420 because if you

01:00:28.160 like them all

01:00:28.780 you have to get

01:00:29.260 rid of the worst

01:00:29.580 yeah I'd already

01:00:30.060 pre-screened them

01:00:30.980 you know but I

01:00:31.500 wasn't going to

01:00:31.840 buy 10 a night

01:00:32.620 I only wanted to

01:00:33.520 buy four a night

01:00:34.300 yeah so but that

01:00:36.400 worked out really

01:00:37.300 well and it was

01:00:38.180 interesting too because

01:00:39.000 your mom was kind of

01:00:39.980 worried about my art

01:00:41.000 buying obsession which

01:00:42.080 lasted about three

01:00:42.900 years could have been

01:00:43.820 more worried about it

01:00:44.760 yeah but generally

01:00:46.280 when I came brought

01:00:47.240 her upstairs to look

01:00:48.120 at the paintings

01:00:49.460 she'd say well I

01:00:51.380 don't like that one

01:00:52.200 and I don't like that

01:00:53.140 one and I don't like

01:00:54.360 that one but you

01:00:55.420 can get those other

01:00:56.180 three and that was

01:00:57.240 enthusiasm plus her

01:00:58.540 interest in aesthetics

01:00:59.540 and so that's funny

01:01:02.220 yeah okay well and

01:01:04.600 that's a good one I

01:01:05.560 think it's really hard

01:01:06.420 for couples where one

01:01:07.680 person is really high

01:01:08.760 in openness and the

01:01:09.600 other one isn't that's

01:01:11.000 a hard gap to bridge

01:01:12.160 man because the one

01:01:14.360 person is going to be

01:01:15.180 really interested in

01:01:16.060 ideas and in art and

01:01:17.600 literature and music

01:01:18.460 and all of that all of

01:01:19.780 the whole artistic realm

01:01:20.940 and the other person

01:01:22.180 isn't isn't struck by

01:01:25.260 that or consumed by it

01:01:26.680 then I don't know how

01:01:30.120 to mediate that well

01:01:31.920 that was good for us

01:01:33.020 for sure yeah it

01:01:34.620 really worked for us

01:01:35.940 for us I mean my mom

01:01:37.500 is lower in openness

01:01:38.780 than my dad and art

01:01:41.180 scares her especially

01:01:43.140 if it has to be nice

01:01:44.540 like she'd have her

01:01:45.480 house covered with

01:01:46.240 kittens if that was

01:01:47.180 a possibility in fact

01:01:48.100 she does to some

01:01:49.100 degree I bought some

01:01:50.620 rough Russian

01:01:51.720 impressionist paintings

01:01:52.740 from an artist that I

01:01:54.280 really liked in the

01:01:55.580 Soviet Union and they

01:01:56.460 were selling for like

01:01:57.300 nothing they were next

01:01:59.240 to free I bought my

01:02:00.560 dad 10 of them which I

01:02:02.120 really liked and sent

01:02:03.560 them to him and he

01:02:05.160 liked them a lot but

01:02:06.380 mom wouldn't let him

01:02:07.400 hang them up upstairs I

01:02:09.780 think they were too

01:02:10.680 unsettling for her but

01:02:13.620 he eventually got them

01:02:14.980 framed and then brought

01:02:16.480 them up sort of one at

01:02:17.460 a time and she got

01:02:19.040 accustomed to them and

01:02:20.220 then liked them and

01:02:21.520 then years later probably

01:02:23.180 10 years later what I

01:02:24.460 reminded her of the

01:02:25.400 first part of the

01:02:25.980 story she didn't

01:02:26.580 remember it at all she

01:02:27.420 really liked the

01:02:27.960 paintings by then but it

01:02:29.220 took her a long time

01:02:30.360 art is quite terrifying

01:02:31.900 you know and if you're

01:02:33.220 naturally attracted to

01:02:34.240 it that's one thing but

01:02:35.160 beauty is no small force

01:02:36.800 man and so for people

01:02:39.160 low in openness they're

01:02:40.560 not attracted by the

01:02:43.580 aesthetic experience to

01:02:45.180 such a degree and so

01:02:46.580 it's kind of unsettling for

01:02:47.760 them so and that's a

01:02:50.760 tough that's a tough I

01:02:52.300 remember I went to visit

01:02:53.500 my dad and we had gone

01:02:55.140 to Vancouver and I

01:02:56.240 said let's go to the

01:02:56.960 Emily Carr Museum

01:02:57.940 why would we want to do

01:03:01.340 that he said he wasn't

01:03:02.720 very high in openness

01:03:03.580 but what makes you think

01:03:05.440 that'd be a good idea

01:03:06.580 yeah I think what about

01:03:09.160 this though if you have

01:03:09.980 someone who's extremely

01:03:11.720 extroverted though and

01:03:13.680 wouldn't that just

01:03:14.200 override it because even

01:03:15.480 even going around no no

01:03:16.660 they just want to go there

01:03:17.620 because to be part of the

01:03:18.840 crowd and have fun yeah

01:03:20.400 so they don't care about

01:03:22.200 the art yeah they just

01:03:24.140 want to talk to the

01:03:24.820 museum would have to be

01:03:25.600 full of people what if

01:03:26.700 yeah they go to a party

01:03:27.740 at a museum but they

01:03:29.380 wouldn't go imagine the

01:03:30.240 museum was empty and they

01:03:31.200 had to go there alone

01:03:31.980 like oh yeah I'm

01:03:33.500 extroverted but I would

01:03:34.600 go to a museum alone

01:03:36.180 me too I'd rather go with

01:03:38.280 someone but I would go

01:03:39.220 alone yeah and I go to

01:03:40.540 movies alone see I don't

01:03:41.840 yeah I like movies alone

01:03:43.460 as well yeah I think I've

01:03:46.920 had that issue a bit when

01:03:47.940 I've been traveling and I

01:03:48.800 like to go to parties when

01:03:49.860 I'm the only one there

01:03:50.780 that I don't know anybody

01:03:51.980 else there I used to do

01:03:53.260 that all the time when I

01:03:54.020 was in my 20s you know

01:03:55.200 around the university and

01:03:56.260 I'd find a party and I'd

01:03:57.360 walk in the house and be

01:03:58.540 in a party with people

01:03:59.460 didn't know anybody low

01:04:00.700 and withdrawal yeah yeah

01:04:01.920 yeah that's part of your

01:04:02.820 part of your basic yeah I

01:04:04.240 was like oh this is

01:04:04.960 interesting yeah that was

01:04:06.460 disrupted for you to some

01:04:07.740 degree by the pill well

01:04:09.720 the pill yeah the pill was

01:04:10.960 terrible it made me

01:04:11.880 depressed and volatile and

01:04:13.660 volatile but it makes

01:04:14.620 everybody like no one

01:04:16.060 says it makes everybody

01:04:17.680 depressed and volatile I

01:04:19.060 still had no withdrawal

01:04:19.940 though it upped my

01:04:21.120 volatility but it didn't

01:04:22.260 change the no no it

01:04:23.300 didn't that's interesting

01:04:24.340 it doesn't make everybody

01:04:25.340 depressed I had clients who

01:04:26.640 were depressed especially

01:04:27.780 with PMS like they had

01:04:29.820 cyclical monthly depression

01:04:31.080 and for some of them the

01:04:32.540 pill smoothed that out

01:04:33.820 substantially so yeah you

01:04:35.840 have to pay attention to

01:04:36.760 individual differences but

01:04:37.980 yeah but also I know it

01:04:39.440 wasn't good yeah it was

01:04:40.400 terrible it ruins a lot of

01:04:41.820 people's lives I didn't take

01:04:42.780 care of myself I didn't take

01:04:44.260 I didn't cut my hair I

01:04:45.780 didn't take take proper

01:04:47.380 care of what I was

01:04:48.460 wearing and stuff it

01:04:49.580 really depressed yeah it

01:04:51.880 was really bad it was

01:04:53.180 really bad and you're not

01:04:54.040 prone like that's so one

01:04:55.600 of my it was chemical yeah

01:04:56.900 you're not prone to

01:04:58.040 depression no no Rebecca

01:05:00.680 it was like an

01:05:01.780 unbelievably bubbly not

01:05:03.120 prone I would say at all

01:05:04.800 same thing as soon as she

01:05:05.920 went on the pill she was

01:05:07.820 crying every day yeah that's

01:05:09.580 a massive difference and

01:05:11.160 people are put I'm not

01:05:12.140 happy with that people are

01:05:12.940 put on that when they're

01:05:13.660 like 14 for a safety when

01:05:16.180 your emotions are all

01:05:17.340 topsy-turvy anyway and

01:05:19.540 they're like and then it

01:05:20.120 takes a couple weeks to

01:05:21.040 make you depressed so you

01:05:21.900 don't really notice right

01:05:22.740 away and then you're on

01:05:23.900 it for 10 years before it's

01:05:25.060 like oh you know or

01:05:27.340 longer 15 years because

01:05:28.940 apparently it's safe to

01:05:29.880 take forever anyway I

01:05:31.440 started taking the pill when

01:05:32.600 I was 16 years old I

01:05:35.380 finished I definitely had

01:05:37.380 way more trouble with my

01:05:38.400 parents for the last two

01:05:39.780 years of high school so I

01:05:41.620 think I changed dramatically

01:05:42.920 and then I went off to

01:05:44.800 university about you

01:05:45.880 changed around that time

01:05:47.020 and I went off the pill

01:05:48.160 went to university went

01:05:50.120 back on the pill dropped

01:05:51.160 out of university and I

01:05:53.220 was you know meeting

01:05:53.960 boyfriends and so I would

01:05:55.780 take part in goal-directed

01:05:59.000 activity when I was not on

01:06:01.540 the pill and then as soon as

01:06:02.740 I was on the pill I'd drop

01:06:03.680 everything well it was

01:06:05.200 terrible after Michaela was

01:06:07.520 born no Julian yeah that's

01:06:11.720 right after Julian was born

01:06:12.960 we were getting along pretty

01:06:14.460 well and you went back on

01:06:15.360 the pill and I went back on

01:06:16.480 the pill when Julian was a

01:06:17.460 year old and I just my I was

01:06:20.780 completely different person I

01:06:23.220 was completely different

01:06:23.920 person and luckily someone

01:06:24.820 came to visit who said the

01:06:25.920 same thing happened to her and

01:06:27.600 so I stopped taking them and

01:06:28.820 then I then you was fine yeah

01:06:30.100 it was quite dramatic it was

01:06:31.780 quite dramatic anyways we

01:06:33.040 shouldn't talk about that too

01:06:34.140 much yeah yeah no but birth

01:06:36.080 control pills and yeah they're

01:06:37.880 complicated yeah right can we

01:06:40.800 well we went over the

01:06:41.680 personality report yeah so

01:06:43.360 people can go to if they

01:06:44.460 want to do that they can go

01:06:45.620 to understand myself dot com

01:06:47.260 yeah it's dirt cheap it's

01:06:49.120 we tried to make it

01:06:49.780 ridiculously cheap we tried to

01:06:51.040 make it we had rules we had

01:06:52.880 rules for the company we

01:06:54.120 wanted to only sell we wanted

01:06:57.380 to sell because we wanted to

01:06:58.820 make sure we develop the

01:07:00.180 personality tests and also the

01:07:02.240 self-authoring suite which

01:07:03.400 helps people write about their

01:07:04.560 past present and future we

01:07:06.320 wanted to only offer high

01:07:08.240 quality scientifically

01:07:09.400 validated interventions that

01:07:12.120 were self-directed for people

01:07:14.120 so they had to be based on a

01:07:15.420 solid research background we

01:07:16.960 didn't want any

01:07:17.660 administrative overhead we

01:07:19.600 wanted people to be able to

01:07:20.680 do it on their own we wanted

01:07:22.080 to make it scalable ultimately

01:07:24.220 and we wanted to keep the

01:07:25.260 price as low as possible and so

01:07:26.860 those were there and the

01:07:28.960 salability issue is think about

01:07:30.600 it this way you develop a

01:07:31.560 personality test but no one uses

01:07:33.900 it well that's not a good

01:07:35.580 solution to the problem you

01:07:36.840 you want to have people use

01:07:38.060 it so then and then you want

01:07:40.100 to have them use it and be

01:07:41.080 happy enough about it to pay

01:07:42.600 for it because that's actually

01:07:44.040 a mark of its utility so we

01:07:46.640 instituted my partners and I

01:07:48.500 Dr. Robert Peel who was my

01:07:49.920 graduate supervisor and Dr.

01:07:51.460 Daniel Higgins who was an is an

01:07:53.700 MIT trained engineer and was my

01:07:55.640 student at Harvard who I've been

01:07:57.020 working with now for 20 years we

01:07:58.800 use those principles to guide the

01:08:01.200 development of all these tests and

01:08:02.840 that's worked very well so far

01:08:04.820 website's a bit wordy but we're

01:08:06.960 working on that now so anyways

01:08:09.720 yeah understand myself it's been I

01:08:12.760 think you know even though well

01:08:16.580 when we were first working on the

01:08:17.700 test we gave it to kids yeah that

01:08:20.320 was really useful they were young

01:08:21.880 young yeah yeah six yeah five or

01:08:24.800 something I remember that like

01:08:26.160 super young yeah to self-score it

01:08:28.240 yeah and I realized because oh yeah

01:08:30.820 it didn't work for them at all

01:08:31.940 and I would get into tussles now

01:08:34.220 and then and I realized after

01:08:37.080 reviewing her personality scores

01:08:38.500 that it wasn't because she was

01:08:39.600 low in agreeableness because I

01:08:41.040 thought she was pushing back but it

01:08:43.020 was because partly because she was

01:08:45.200 ill she was volatile and so she

01:08:47.180 she'd get upset when we were

01:08:48.800 discussing things not because she

01:08:50.740 was rebelling or pushing back but

01:08:52.560 because she got upset and so I

01:08:54.000 tried to learn when she was upset

01:08:55.860 not to get upset about that in

01:08:57.600 return but to give her a hug or a

01:08:59.220 path and to understand that it was

01:09:01.280 emotional upset rather than you know

01:09:04.040 rather than a motivated rebellion

01:09:06.080 that was really helpful and I learned

01:09:08.180 too that Julian was extremely easy to

01:09:11.640 get along with um although he was a

01:09:14.220 tough little kid yeah and it wasn't

01:09:16.200 because he was agreeable because he's

01:09:17.440 not agreeable but he's really

01:09:19.040 emotionally stable really low in

01:09:20.620 neuroticism and so and when in

01:09:23.240 retrospect I thought well that makes

01:09:24.500 sense because

01:09:25.100 if he said no you couldn't get him to

01:09:29.160 do it like really really when when he

01:09:32.400 was a little kid when he was a little

01:09:34.420 kid he used to say yes in school

01:09:36.280 sometimes but not do it yeah just

01:09:38.280 didn't want to be bothered by the

01:09:39.760 people who are asking shut up so I had

01:09:41.460 to explain to him I said you know there

01:09:43.880 might be other kids who want to do

01:09:45.420 this you've said yes you've got you've

01:09:47.680 got the right to do it but now you

01:09:49.280 didn't do it someone else didn't get to

01:09:50.880 do it so just say no and get on with

01:09:53.400 it well now he just says no very

01:09:55.900 easily yeah when he was that used to

01:09:58.020 confuse me yeah confuse me hey can you

01:10:01.360 help with this no yeah what do you

01:10:03.440 mean you can't like I don't really

01:10:05.340 want to help with this either but I'm

01:10:06.980 helping with it because the other

01:10:08.360 person needs help you're just saying no

01:10:10.060 what are you doing sitting at home

01:10:11.620 like yeah I want to be sitting at home

01:10:13.980 when he was about 11 months old he had

01:10:16.980 this tippy cup and he used to we'd fill

01:10:20.520 it with water or milk and and give it to

01:10:22.860 him and he used to dot make dots

01:10:24.580 everywhere with it and when that was

01:10:26.940 milk that wasn't such a good thing so

01:10:28.960 we tried to get him to stop doing that

01:10:31.280 and we finally had to take the cup

01:10:33.260 away because there was no way he was

01:10:35.380 going to stop doing that and he was

01:10:36.880 only like 12 months old 11 months old

01:10:38.940 and I had a battle with him one time

01:10:41.120 when he was learning to feed himself

01:10:42.960 because he had taken the spoon from

01:10:44.700 his mom he wasn't going to give that

01:10:46.300 goddamn spoon back and then he wasn't

01:10:48.480 eating because he just eat a bit and

01:10:50.200 then he'd play he was playing hockey

01:10:51.920 yeah he was playing hockey that's right

01:10:53.660 with his spoon and then he was getting

01:10:55.260 too hungry and then he'd get crabbing

01:10:56.920 he wouldn't nap and then he was

01:10:58.020 upsetting his mom and I thought all

01:10:59.420 right kid I'm taking that spoon back

01:11:01.000 because I'm going to feed you and it

01:11:02.740 literally took me three hours fighting

01:11:06.100 with this like 10 month old kid it

01:11:07.720 wasn't really a fight though it was

01:11:09.120 really ingenious so he'd poke him in

01:11:11.000 the shoulder a little bit and Julian

01:11:12.640 be sitting there with his mouth shut

01:11:13.780 just try to feed me and then he'd poke

01:11:16.780 him a few times and he'd go and then

01:11:18.600 stick the food in his mouth then he'd

01:11:20.080 try to push it out with his tongue

01:11:21.340 airplane mode yeah I thought it was

01:11:28.020 on April airplane mode but apparently

01:11:29.520 it isn't let me fix that real quick

01:11:31.820 so yeah yeah it it well it got so

01:11:36.040 intense this fight that your mom had

01:11:38.580 to leave the room because she couldn't

01:11:40.320 tolerate the conflict and I it was

01:11:42.160 making me sweat too but I thought

01:11:43.420 there's no damn way this nine month

01:11:44.880 old kid is gonna win I was patient

01:11:46.980 like I'd learned at that point when I

01:11:48.460 was disciplining you kids to not usually

01:11:52.240 not get upset it was just like no on

01:11:55.000 the steps with you you stop doing that

01:11:56.820 when you're willing to behave like a

01:12:00.960 civilized human being you can come back

01:12:02.960 that was the rule right do something

01:12:04.620 disruptive yeah you remember those

01:12:06.660 words well you you were pretty easy to

01:12:11.020 discipline because very yeah very easy

01:12:13.460 knowing you're agreeable yeah all we had

01:12:15.820 to do really was say no and we didn't

01:12:18.100 even have to say it very harshly you

01:12:19.380 just stop I think I scored 50th

01:12:22.600 percentile because the compassion was at

01:12:24.320 88 okay lightness is it like low but

01:12:27.940 Julian when we used to put him on the

01:12:29.760 steps man he would just sit there and

01:12:32.940 rage like his fists clenched his jaw

01:12:36.100 trying to get himself under control

01:12:41.100 yeah we'd go over there and this was he

01:12:43.060 was very young I remember just being

01:12:44.340 sad are you ready to get off the steps

01:12:46.500 no I'm not ready yet and then he'd get

01:12:51.000 himself under control it was really

01:12:52.380 interesting to watch him build that

01:12:54.300 internal apparatus to control you know

01:12:57.040 to control that and he got extremely

01:12:59.380 diplomatic because he was so

01:13:00.940 disagreeable but because we were

01:13:02.440 disciplining him he would just worry

01:13:04.420 that edge like how much can I get away

01:13:06.740 with exactly precisely right now and

01:13:09.920 your mom and I would watch this

01:13:11.140 because especially if he went to

01:13:12.720 daycare and interacted with some kids

01:13:14.340 who were full of tricks he'd come home

01:13:15.640 full of tricks you know he'd try him

01:13:17.480 out let's try this out see if it works

01:13:19.500 and so it does that yeah yeah yeah well

01:13:22.640 it's a sign of it's a sign of that

01:13:24.460 yeah like who are you yeah no one likes

01:13:27.640 that kid that's right stop being that

01:13:30.560 kid yeah and so Tammy and I would talk

01:13:33.100 because we tried to present an

01:13:34.780 integrated disciplinary front we

01:13:36.940 weren't going to let you kids play

01:13:38.280 one of us against the other although

01:13:39.540 imagine you'd managed that some of the

01:13:41.120 times and we'd say okay Julian he's

01:13:43.940 getting out of hand here we're going to

01:13:45.460 crack down on him for two weeks he

01:13:46.900 doesn't he doesn't get away with a

01:13:48.200 whisper out of line and so we'd really

01:13:50.620 like attend to him right watching it if

01:13:53.320 he ever did anything out of line stop

01:13:54.960 and what was really interesting this was

01:13:57.200 so interesting every time we did that

01:14:00.160 he liked us way more oh yeah yeah it

01:14:03.560 was so interesting yeah it's not chaos

01:14:06.100 right right some boundaries they're not

01:14:08.020 just like well how far can I go yeah

01:14:09.840 where are the walls I have a story so

01:14:11.720 when we were in Boston I was taking care

01:14:14.600 of these little kids one afternoon

01:14:15.780 someone's someone's care worker had a

01:14:18.460 car accident and they didn't have

01:14:20.000 someone to take care of them and I had

01:14:21.980 your friends that used to come over and

01:14:24.340 play all the time so I had this troop of

01:14:26.300 kids in the house and so this little

01:14:28.580 guy came in and he was about three

01:14:30.240 years old and his mom said don't worry

01:14:32.980 he won't eat anything but you know

01:14:34.980 just keep him for the day and I thought

01:14:36.860 well that doesn't make any sense so

01:14:38.380 don't worry he won't eat anything yeah

01:14:40.520 so at lunchtime we sat down we had

01:14:42.000 chicken pot pie and you guys knew that

01:14:44.500 you had to eat and so did the two kids

01:14:46.680 that always came they knew yeah except

01:14:48.460 that one kid he'd only eat hot dogs at

01:14:51.060 home Mitchell yeah oh is that right yeah

01:14:53.440 but he ate everything at our house

01:14:54.680 he probably knew what was up yeah he

01:14:56.360 oh I didn't know that yeah anyway this

01:14:59.200 little kid sat down and he wasn't

01:15:01.020 going to eat anything but we did the

01:15:02.760 same thing we did with Julian yeah

01:15:05.120 except I used more reward and then he

01:15:07.540 would eat something and we'd go good

01:15:09.680 boy so we tried to feed him something

01:15:12.120 yeah and he was about he was about

01:15:13.560 four he might have been four we tried

01:15:16.420 to feed him something and he'd go like

01:15:17.700 this yes and I thought well that's

01:15:19.620 what that's what a nine-month-old

01:15:21.380 does it just move his head I thought

01:15:22.840 oh this kid hasn't been interacted

01:15:24.160 with since he was nine months old yeah

01:15:25.920 and so I just keep the spoon in front

01:15:28.520 of him and with a little bit of one

01:15:30.360 finally he'd he'd eat it and then I go

01:15:32.320 pat pat pat pat good and then he got

01:15:34.260 hungry you know once he was eating well

01:15:35.920 you did the feeding not me that was you

01:15:38.680 that did that yeah yeah and she were

01:15:40.620 there I was watching that's right and

01:15:42.440 you kept rewarding him and then it was

01:15:44.420 so interesting so when I had come home

01:15:47.280 that day that kid was standing in the

01:15:49.680 porch by himself looking miserable while

01:15:52.420 the other kids were playing and I came

01:15:53.780 and I looked at him I thought what the

01:15:55.900 hell that's not good and so then I

01:15:57.780 poked him a bunch you know to try to

01:15:59.420 play with him and he just went like this

01:16:01.260 he was sullen and he had no idea how to

01:16:03.580 play and so that was really sad and then

01:16:05.820 lunch was after that anyways Tammy fed

01:16:09.180 him and he got right to the bottom of

01:16:11.140 the bowl and finished it and she said

01:16:13.360 look you finished it look what you did and

01:16:16.080 he just lit up into a huge smile oh

01:16:19.240 that's gonna make me cry yeah oh it's

01:16:20.700 worse it's worse it's worse he wasn't

01:16:23.460 toilet trained yet yeah he followed Tammy

01:16:26.100 around for the rest of the day like a

01:16:28.100 puppy like he was right on her path and

01:16:31.000 then yeah when we sat down we used to go

01:16:32.880 downstairs and watch Disney and and he

01:16:35.720 sat on my knee he climbed right up on her

01:16:38.300 and grabbed her like that like that little

01:16:40.480 monkey clinging to the wire mother in the

01:16:42.820 famous experiments and then Jesus Christ

01:16:46.120 his mother came home and came downstairs

01:16:48.520 and she saw Tam hit this kid clinging to

01:16:52.540 Tammy and she said oh super mom and

01:16:56.140 grabbed him by the hand and left it's

01:16:58.320 like that's a horrifying story yeah yeah

01:17:00.980 well she was a psychologist too just to

01:17:03.500 put another I think her husband was a

01:17:05.120 psychologist okay whatever yeah no he

01:17:07.420 wasn't

01:17:07.960 yeah yeah anyway I hope that that day

01:17:11.220 was enough to really help them help him

01:17:13.720 some well yeah right or just make them

01:17:15.660 hate you yeah and take it out on the kid

01:17:18.140 yeah yeah which they definitely would if

01:17:20.380 it's like how dare you show attention

01:17:22.280 when you won't show it was something man

01:17:24.400 yeah well they one of the kids we

01:17:26.040 babysat there too this kid the one that

01:17:29.200 wouldn't eat anything at home he was

01:17:30.960 actually a pushover this kid he wasn't

01:17:32.580 tough he was lovely he was a nice kid but

01:17:34.840 one day he had a temper tantrum in our

01:17:36.520 house and he could have a temper tantrum

01:17:38.880 till he turned blue he would hold his

01:17:40.740 breath till he turned blue try that at

01:17:43.260 home folks and see how much willpower

01:17:45.340 that takes well he was having a temper

01:17:47.480 tantrum in the kitchen and he held his

01:17:49.900 breath and turned blue we just left no

01:17:51.740 we put him on the stairs and he woke up

01:17:53.460 on the stairs and there's no one around

01:17:55.460 it was like oh that was a lot of work

01:17:57.800 for nothing anyways he didn't have any

01:17:59.680 temper tantrum again

01:18:00.540 I didn't even know people couldn't do

01:18:00.860 that oh yes well I didn't know that

01:18:02.420 either it's amazing it shows you how

01:18:05.220 much will there is there you know and

01:18:07.260 you want that will directed and and

01:18:09.160 disciplined and all of that not spent

01:18:11.460 on passing out yeah yeah exactly yeah

01:18:14.500 not spent on counterproductive

01:18:15.880 activities

01:18:16.540 okay well we went through everything uh

01:18:20.580 okay do you what do we can we can talk a

01:18:24.580 bit about the united disciplinary front

01:18:26.760 I mean Tammy and I agreed that we were

01:18:30.800 going to discuss our disciplinary

01:18:33.400 strategies and and implement them and

01:18:35.520 watch each other you know because you

01:18:38.220 need two people to do that because

01:18:39.660 sometimes you're in a bad mood we didn't

01:18:41.180 really disagree on that very much at all

01:18:43.480 just so I know just like we could clip

01:18:45.560 this or something it's this is just how

01:18:47.660 to work with your partner to discipline

01:18:48.980 properly yeah yeah well and one of the

01:18:52.080 advantages to that and so we didn't let

01:18:54.060 you kids in this I turned this into one of

01:18:56.120 the rules of my book well first book don't

01:18:58.440 let your kids do anything that makes you

01:18:59.960 dislike them and that was a rule in our

01:19:01.520 household it's like we're not going to

01:19:03.320 dislike our kids period we're going to

01:19:05.340 not only love them which kind of comes

01:19:07.940 along for the ride at least to begin

01:19:09.480 with but also like them and so we never

01:19:11.860 let you guys do anything that made us

01:19:13.800 displeased with you for any length of

01:19:16.100 time and one of the great advantages of

01:19:18.220 that was that we could take you to

01:19:20.720 restaurants even when you were very

01:19:21.960 little and so you were much less of an

01:19:23.800 impediment so to speak to our social

01:19:25.940 lives than you would have been

01:19:26.800 otherwise we can only keep you in a

01:19:28.320 restaurant for about 45 minutes to an

01:19:30.180 hour when you were little you know

01:19:32.040 scarlet have you seen her in

01:19:33.860 restaurants yeah she's great for two

01:19:35.680 hours yeah she's great yeah scarlet's

01:19:37.740 very socially appropriate well she

01:19:38.900 doesn't have any sugar in her diet that

01:19:40.360 helps I think yeah she's not

01:19:41.760 hyperactive at all yeah no she doesn't

01:19:44.180 have a neediness to run around yeah

01:19:46.660 but she's you've done a good job but

01:19:48.140 she's playful yeah she's very playful

01:19:50.100 she's very alert and she's very socially

01:19:53.260 appropriate and that's such a gift to

01:19:54.980 give your kids because then people

01:19:56.760 used to come over to our table all the

01:19:58.220 time because we'd sit they'd look

01:20:00.380 askance at us when we came in with

01:20:01.840 little kids it's like oh my god this is

01:20:03.500 gonna be a terrible show and then you'd

01:20:05.480 sit there like civilized human beings

01:20:07.040 for you know up to an hour and people

01:20:10.160 would come over and they they were

01:20:11.780 smiling at you and looking at you in a

01:20:14.120 pleasant way really positive

01:20:15.520 reinforcement for you guys and you got

01:20:17.700 to come with us to other people's

01:20:19.140 houses often because you were well

01:20:20.900 behaved we got invited back yes

01:20:22.800 that's right we got invited back yeah

01:20:24.580 yeah yeah if you go over to someone's

01:20:26.740 place with your kids and you don't get

01:20:28.020 invited back well it's probably either

01:20:30.160 you or the kids

01:20:31.040 definitely you but we had the kids it's

01:20:35.280 also we had times in restaurants in

01:20:37.120 Boston oh you'll remember this one in

01:20:40.080 Boston where you would misbehave in a

01:20:43.180 restaurant I just take you outside often

01:20:44.800 it was winter and we just stand there it

01:20:46.380 was like okay kid here's your options we

01:20:49.400 can stand here in the cold which I can

01:20:51.300 probably tolerate more than you for as

01:20:53.060 long as necessary or we can go back

01:20:55.000 into the restaurant and act like

01:20:56.420 civilized human beings what do you

01:20:58.440 want

01:20:58.780 restaurant please so do you remember the

01:21:03.560 time in Toronto I don't know if it was

01:21:05.140 you or Julian but I think it was

01:21:07.960 Julian we went into a donut shop to get

01:21:10.200 a donut and he was misbehaving in some

01:21:12.000 manner so I just went outside with him

01:21:13.660 no no I put him outside

01:21:15.740 there was twice oh there's twice I put

01:21:18.260 him outside I was sitting right in the

01:21:20.120 booth I put him outside it's like you can

01:21:22.300 stand out there till you're a civilized

01:21:23.520 human being and this woman just got she

01:21:26.200 got so upset about that that she

01:21:28.640 literally once he came back in she

01:21:30.780 literally went outside and put her butt

01:21:34.060 against the window and shook it back and

01:21:36.340 forth and then left it was like how dare

01:21:40.100 you try to make your child you know act

01:21:43.360 like a civilized human being so people like

01:21:45.420 him yeah it made her very upset made her

01:21:47.440 very upset nice show uncomfortable that I

01:21:50.180 remember one a horrible thank you

01:21:52.980 thanks Dave thanks Dave you remember

01:21:59.240 that I yeah you can tell that story I

01:22:01.580 remember one horrible story so I was on

01:22:03.900 methotrexate and naproxen which

01:22:05.820 completely obliterated my appetite in the

01:22:07.780 morning I was nauseous in the morning so

01:22:09.760 dad used to kind of force feed me yeah

01:22:12.920 which was very just as unpleasant as it

01:22:15.260 sounds yeah it was awful we were at a we

01:22:17.280 were at a stop going to the big apple

01:22:20.480 the big apple that's right on the way

01:22:22.020 from Toronto to Montreal yeah yeah and it

01:22:24.380 was lunch or breakfast lunch and we were

01:22:26.840 sitting at a table and I was like I'm not

01:22:29.100 hungry I'm not eating you know I wasn't

01:22:30.800 very I was probably nine or something and

01:22:32.820 dad was like oh no you're eating this yeah

01:22:35.380 right and it was just that's just it mom

01:22:37.360 and Julian left yeah we went because it

01:22:39.840 wasn't pleasant you know because you

01:22:41.240 weren't hungry at all we didn't fight

01:22:43.020 about it exactly but you were not

01:22:44.560 motivated I was upset yeah of course you

01:22:47.080 were upset yeah but you had to eat

01:22:48.780 because you were already losing weight

01:22:50.380 and they told us you your kid has to eat

01:22:52.520 or she's gonna wonder what would have

01:22:53.980 happened if we would have just given

01:22:55.280 her some meat jerky I used to ask for

01:22:57.460 jerky for Christmas yeah yeah but but

01:22:59.580 anyway the woman we didn't know yeah

01:23:01.360 well obviously how would we have known

01:23:03.080 I was feeding you obvious meat diet okay

01:23:05.240 no not obviously and encouraging you to

01:23:07.360 eat yeah I wasn't force-feeding you I

01:23:09.540 wasn't prying open your jaw I feel like

01:23:11.080 we used to talk okay yes we should

01:23:13.840 clarify Jordan force-fed his children

01:23:16.780 yeah well the rule was you had to eat

01:23:18.640 your lunch because well I was losing

01:23:20.760 weight yeah you were losing weight and

01:23:22.240 this woman came over and she sat behind

01:23:24.640 I remember this vividly I don't remember

01:23:26.380 she came up yeah yeah you were there she

01:23:28.160 was sitting behind me you were feeding

01:23:30.080 me from here and she turned around and

01:23:32.660 and just like berated you and I can

01:23:34.660 remember that made me so angry because I

01:23:38.100 was like you have no idea what's going

01:23:40.520 on here even I knew that I was only nine

01:23:42.660 I was like how dare you interrupt this

01:23:44.580 yeah well you you knew that you needed

01:23:46.900 to eat but it's not easy to eat when

01:23:48.960 everything tastes like cardboard and

01:23:50.600 you're not hungry and it's not it's not

01:23:52.400 easy to eat at all and you were too young

01:23:53.940 to take that on to yourself by that time

01:23:57.260 you were giving yourself your own

01:23:58.500 injections though

01:23:59.340 do you remember how that happened I do

01:24:04.100 I remember I missed this whole Simpsons

01:24:07.460 episode

01:24:08.000 oh yeah yeah I can remember like having

01:24:11.920 the needle and being like oh can't do it

01:24:14.000 the Simpsons playing downstairs

01:24:15.400 so Michaela had you had to have a needle

01:24:17.400 how often twice a week twice a week and so

01:24:20.620 we were administering it but that was

01:24:22.880 scary for her because needles are scary

01:24:24.700 for little kids yeah so it was also the

01:24:26.920 alcohol made me nauseous and because the

01:24:29.880 methotrexate had made me nauseous in the

01:24:31.540 morning and it was yellow when I was

01:24:33.000 swallowing it and the injection was

01:24:34.860 yellow I had nausea associated with that

01:24:37.740 color yellow so when I gave myself the

01:24:40.740 injection it made me nauseous because I'd

01:24:42.280 already associated nausea with yellow it was

01:24:44.340 just yeah so I used behavioral techniques

01:24:47.060 on with Michaela to help her learn to

01:24:49.220 inject herself because we thought it

01:24:51.360 would be better if she had control over

01:24:52.600 that and so she was motivated by money

01:24:54.820 like and she still is and so I and she

01:24:58.820 knew what money was by that point quite

01:25:01.360 sour keys yeah yeah she knew what it could

01:25:04.040 be exchanged for and so I told her that if

01:25:06.580 she could do the injection I would give her

01:25:08.500 fifty dollars and that was quite a lot of

01:25:11.940 money at that point and so she sat for 40

01:25:15.560 minutes I would say on the stairs with that

01:25:17.480 needle poised to inject and fighting with

01:25:19.580 herself and kitchen table and then kitchen

01:25:22.120 table and then did it and then I I think

01:25:25.320 the next day it was I'll give you like

01:25:27.180 forty dollars but you have to do it in 15

01:25:29.520 minutes and then we whittled it all the

01:25:31.440 way down to five to five minutes or five

01:25:34.760 dollars five it was five dollars I got

01:25:37.400 five dollars every time I gave myself an

01:25:39.000 injection yeah for for a long time I was

01:25:41.000 like like 17 or yeah yeah well we wanted

01:25:45.140 you know we wanted to sort of balance the

01:25:47.400 scales a little bit and but you got so

01:25:49.820 you were extremely good at it it was way

01:25:51.580 better it became you know part of the

01:25:54.180 daily routine it wasn't a big deal you

01:25:56.460 weren't afraid of it anymore and it was

01:25:58.440 under your control which really needed to

01:26:00.320 be well yeah you should be a lot better

01:26:02.360 though it was a lot better yeah yeah as

01:26:06.300 good as that can be hmm yeah it was as

01:26:09.380 good as it can be and sometimes that's

01:26:11.120 enough to make all the difference well is

01:26:16.240 there any like I have more questions but

01:26:18.240 we've been going for an hour and a half I

01:26:20.580 think is time to wrap up yeah that's

01:26:23.120 pretty good always do another one later

01:26:24.400 yeah okay well that was fun yeah we can

01:26:26.480 see how people react and if they have

01:26:28.020 questions then at some point we can ask

01:26:30.880 answer specific questions about

01:26:32.560 relationship difficulties along the given

01:26:35.260 traits yeah that's a good idea that

01:26:37.560 sounds good well thank you guys that was

01:26:39.240 fun yeah thanks it was fun

01:26:58.020 we interrupt your playlist to bring you

01:27:02.540 breaking news Tim's classic breakfast

01:27:04.440 sandwiches are just three dollars when

01:27:06.140 you buy any size coffee you heard that

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01:27:14.240 it's time for Tim's

The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast - February 15, 2022

226. Couples Report from understandmyself.com ｜ Jordan and Tammy Peterson

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