The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast - 234. Kill Bill (67)

00:00:00.960 Hey everyone, real quick before you skip, I want to talk to you about something serious and important.

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00:00:51.040 Welcome to episode 234 of the JBP podcast.

00:00:58.980 This is a very important episode. It's regarding a Canadian bill everyone should be aware of.

00:01:04.660 We're slowly or quickly watching Canada become a blatant example of a politically correct totalitarian country.

00:01:12.680 Canadian Bill 67, which claims to be nothing but an anti-racist bill,

00:01:17.580 is most likely the most dangerous piece of Canadian legislature ever written.

00:01:22.700 Dad says this bill makes Bill C-16 look like child's play.

00:01:27.520 Dad was joined by Barbara Kay, Bruce Party, and David Haskell just this week to discuss the new proposal,

00:01:34.980 the potential consequences of this bill, and what we Canadians can do about it.

00:01:39.460 Remember, guys, by visiting jordanbpeterson.supercast.com, you can listen to the ad-free version of the podcast.

00:01:48.140 Dad is also posting on Parler now, the world's premier free speech platform.

00:01:52.880 He has longer form and more personal content there I think a lot of his listeners might enjoy.

00:01:58.500 That's at parlor.com slash jordanbpeterson.

00:02:01.320 Hello, everyone.

00:02:21.260 I've brought three people together with me today to discuss Bill C-67,

00:02:27.280 an Ontario bill that is entitled Racial Equity in the Education System.

00:02:37.360 Barbara Kay is a columnist for the Canadian newspaper National Post.

00:02:41.680 She also writes for the Epoch Times and Western Standard Online.

00:02:46.260 David Haskell is at Wilfrid Laurier, operating primarily within the field of sociology of religion,

00:02:53.740 but makes occasional forays into communication studies.

00:02:57.280 His teaching and research focuses on religion in Canada, media in Canada.

00:03:02.840 Bruce Party is executive director of Rights Probe and professor of law at Queen's University.

00:03:09.160 He spearheaded resistance to and ultimate repeal of the Law Society of Ontario's statement of principles policy

00:03:16.200 that required Ontario lawyers to attest to their ideological purity to maintain their license to practice.

00:03:22.980 And so I brought these people together today, invited these people to come together today to discuss this bill,

00:03:29.320 which the Conservatives in Ottawa, to their great discredit, are supporting.

00:03:35.020 And so, Barbara, maybe we'll start with you.

00:03:38.780 You wrote an article a little while ago, a couple of days ago, in the Epoch Times,

00:03:43.900 trying to alert Ontarians and Canadians, particularly, let's say, in the centre and on the right,

00:03:51.260 to the degree that those exist in Canada, to the purported, to what you see as the dangers of this bill.

00:03:58.300 So why is a bill that's hypothetically aimed at something as awful as racism, let's say?

00:04:04.320 What concerns do you have about it and why?

00:04:07.480 Well, this bill, 67, which is heading, is soon heading, well, is heading for third reading before a final vote.

00:04:14.440 And it is billed as an anti-racism bill.

00:04:19.900 It's going to give anti-racist instruction to children in the educational system.

00:04:25.240 But the bill is, in fact, pretty well a clone of the programs in the United States that are being resisted all over the place,

00:04:34.240 because it depends entirely on critical race theory for the ideas that are in the program and for the rules that are going to govern it.

00:04:46.720 And it is basically, it calls itself anti-racism.

00:04:51.980 But in fact, it is a very racist program because it deals in a group, identity group,

00:05:02.600 framing all questions of victimhood in terms of identity groups.

00:05:10.260 It says that it's going to oppose anti-Indigenous racism, anti-Black racism, and anti-Asian racism, plus anti-Semitism and Islamophobia.

00:05:22.520 But in fact, they do not include anti-Caucasian racism because that is going to be the one race racism that is not only going to be allowed,

00:05:32.220 but encouraged according to critical race theory, which I know, Jordan, you've spoken about many times.

00:05:38.400 The basic hypothesis that we're pursuing in this discussion is that under the aegis of something as ethically admirable,

00:05:47.660 let's say, as the absence of racism or even promoting the absence of racism,

00:05:52.820 what this bill actually does is bring in a whole set of ideas that have virtually nothing to do with racism per se,

00:06:00.380 under the guise of a moral endeavor,

00:06:02.020 and make it both likely and necessary that people abide by this particular propagandistic ethic

00:06:09.440 in order to be teachers in Ontario schools and certainly to be promoted.

00:06:13.400 And so I'll just detail some of the details of the bill so that people are aware of this.

00:06:17.580 So, for example, performance appraisals shall include competencies related to a teacher's anti-racism awareness,

00:06:26.220 whatever that is, and efforts to promote racial equity.

00:06:31.160 New subsection 301.7.11 requires the minister to establish policies and guidelines

00:06:38.080 with respect to promoting racial equity in schools,

00:06:42.060 and boards must establish and implement racial equity plans.

00:06:46.640 The Higher Education Quality Council of Ontario will have to have a member who will be an expert in racial equity

00:06:56.220 in the post-education center, and that all members must have a proven commitment to racial equity

00:07:02.440 or take anti-racism training.

00:07:05.780 And there's a variety of additional details that are relevant,

00:07:10.360 and what we're discussing today is the fact that all of this means that the education system

00:07:18.860 in the narrow and the broad sense will be oriented towards a set of policies

00:07:23.500 that are radically left in their orientation by necessity,

00:07:28.120 and that there will be punishments put in place for failure to adopt that ideological standpoint.

00:07:35.240 And this is a supposedly conservative government who's bringing this in.

00:07:43.600 The problem with the bill, I think, is that the word equity is used 54 times in this bill,

00:07:52.520 but you don't ever see the word equality.

00:07:55.220 And the problem, even amongst politicians who are supposed to understand the philosophy guiding their own party,

00:08:01.760 is that they seem to glaze over with the word equity,

00:08:07.100 because it sounds a lot like equality, and it sounds like a good thing.

00:08:12.500 And so they've all voted for...

00:08:16.180 Equity is predicated on the idea that if there are any differences in outcome

00:08:20.560 between any groups imaginable, so those could be groups defined by gender,

00:08:26.000 they could be groups defined by race, they could be groups defined by sex.

00:08:29.800 If there are any differences in outcome of any sort,

00:08:33.160 that that's not only indication of a profound and systemic bias characterizing whatever domain

00:08:39.720 is being questioned, but that it's incumbent upon all the members of that domain

00:08:46.240 to regard themselves as prejudiced and biased and to view the non-equal outcomes

00:08:53.340 as evidence of systemic bias.

00:08:56.160 That's the tie-in to critical race theory, let's say.

00:08:58.420 So what's wrong with that proposition?

00:09:01.300 That's precisely what the problem is with it, and I'm very happy for Bruce to amplify on it

00:09:08.980 because he understands it much better than I do.

00:09:13.880 Well, that's obviously not true, but let me just contrast two different ideas, right?

00:09:19.480 Anti-racism, which this bill promotes and insists upon, and non-racism.

00:09:24.360 Non-racism is the attitude that your race doesn't really matter and that you should be treated as a human

00:09:34.920 being and that the same rules and standards should apply to everybody, notwithstanding the group that

00:09:40.240 you belong to. Anti-racism is the opposite. Anti-racism insists that your race is fundamentally important

00:09:48.200 and that being white means that you are both privileged and probably racist.

00:09:56.520 And that is an ideology.

00:09:58.100 And this bill intends to make that ideology compulsory inside the school systems and inside the universities.

00:10:07.620 Yeah. So let's add some more details that are useful here.

00:10:11.060 So any person who is going to be a teacher now has to successfully complete any prescribed examinations

00:10:20.240 and training in anti-racism in order to be issued a certificate of qualification and registration.

00:10:26.240 So that means you have to abide by this political ideology, which is even regarded by moderate leftists

00:10:33.120 in the United States and certainly by centrists as radically left in its fundamental orientation.

00:10:38.800 It also means that colleges that provide such training must be undertaken by all the institutions

00:10:47.120 that are going to train teachers. So it is an attempt to capture the entire education system

00:10:54.400 and subserve it to the purposes of a given ideology in one fell swoop. And that ideology involves claims

00:11:01.600 like the idea that all of the institutions that characterize the West, certainly countries like Canada,

00:11:08.640 are fundamentally racist and oppressive in their orientation and their aim.

00:11:12.560 And that any attempts to constitute an argument that might dispute that are in and of themselves

00:11:19.360 indications of exactly that racism. And well, that's not as far as it goes.

00:11:25.040 So it's interesting to note how disparaging this approach is to everybody. On the one hand,

00:11:35.360 it allows and promotes racism against white people. But at the same time, it disparages insults,

00:11:43.520 patronizes people who are not white as though they are not really capable human beings on their own

00:11:49.040 and must be counted according to their group and compensated for whatever wrong or victimhood

00:11:55.040 that they have been subjected to. So it's bad all around. It is disrespectful of everybody.

00:12:03.280 And essentially, it makes not being an activist a matter of professional misconduct.

00:12:13.520 Yeah, I was just going to say what we might want to look at is we were talking that teachers are going

00:12:18.000 to have to receive trainings. So let's just look at that for a moment and say, well, what kind of books

00:12:22.160 are they going to read in order to become anti-racist? So right now, the most popular, the most

00:12:30.080 well-selling or best-selling books are White Fragility by D'Angelo. And I can't remember her

00:12:38.640 first name. And then there's Robin D'Angelo. And then there's Ibram Kendi, who actually has a book

00:12:45.280 called How to Be Anti-Racist. Now, what people will find interesting is we keep saying that

00:12:52.000 anti-racism is, in fact, racism. And I want to give a quote from Kendi's book. Now, this book is

00:12:58.400 How to Be Anti-Racist. And he says this, the only remedy to racist discrimination is anti-racist

00:13:07.680 discrimination. The only remedy to past discrimination is present discrimination.

00:13:14.480 What these ideas are saying is discrimination is a good thing if it's applied to the group that is

00:13:25.680 the oppressor. And in this case, it's going to be white kids at our public schools.

00:13:29.680 Right. And that's all predicated. That's all predicated on acceptance of the idea.

00:13:34.240 And this people have to understand this, that the fundamentally appropriate

00:13:38.800 level of conceptualization of all human beings is their group identity, not their individual nature.

00:13:45.440 And so it's OK to punish one group for its past crimes because the group is the proper level of

00:13:50.800 analysis. And that's an absolutely anti-Western idea. It's the most profound, perhaps, of anti-conservative

00:13:57.760 ideas. That's for sure. But it's also a profoundly anti-liberal idea in the classical sense. No group

00:14:03.760 guilt here. There's no presumption of innocence. Right. If you're the member of an oppressive group,

00:14:08.480 then you're guilty. And if you're the member of an oppressed group, then you're a victim.

00:14:13.280 That's right. And that's what that's what will be taught in our classrooms.

00:14:17.120 Right. And go ahead. Go ahead. Well, I was just going to say that although these ideas are borrowed from

00:14:23.520 American American writers and influencers, I have the idea. It doesn't say so in the in the bill,

00:14:32.000 but I'm I'm morally certain that the a lot of the intense discussion and a lot of the blame blame

00:14:41.200 laying is going to focus more on indigenous matters because that the the indigenous settler history

00:14:50.720 is the not the equivalent, in fact, but it is the equivalent in terms of the moral narrative

00:14:57.280 in Canada as slavery was in the United States. The moral the original sin of Americans is slavery

00:15:03.680 and Canadians original sin is colonialism. So I have the idea that that it's going to be not just white,

00:15:13.600 but settler privilege that's going to be emphasized. And one of the things that always bothered me about

00:15:19.440 that was that in the United States, slavery was, in fact, a practice that was something that all

00:15:27.680 Americans, I mean, not all Americans, but the Americans who had slaves, they were American citizens.

00:15:31.600 They were they were people involved in a in a practice that we now consider odious. But in Canada,

00:15:39.520 Canada, we were the the whole the whole residential school system or the way that Indians or indigenous

00:15:48.080 people were treated in general was always a function of the government or the institutional

00:15:55.280 people in charge of the residential schools, the churches or whatever. No, no Canadian citizens were

00:16:00.960 ever involved in abusing indigenous peoples or in setting policy for that matter. So

00:16:08.240 for that to be made an equivalent kind of sin that you're you're a settler, you're a settler stock

00:16:17.280 because you're white. This is something that that has kind of taken on, you know, this idea that that

00:16:23.680 that that that the residential schools were a genocide and that all of indigenous history in Canada and

00:16:31.040 it's an ongoing genocide from the point of view of our prime minister. This is a narrative that I think

00:16:37.760 if you're going to push back against that in these classrooms, that, too, will be considered racism.

00:16:44.400 And that that actually I find a very disturbing kind of concept. David Bruce, any comments?

00:16:51.280 So it might be worthwhile just to just to note how extreme this is in terms of its dictation

00:17:02.800 of both attitude, thought and speech inside schools, inside universities. And once you understand what

00:17:10.800 it is, you might think, well, you know, how can this be? It's completely contrary to the whole idea

00:17:17.360 of having schools and universities that engage in thinking and challenge and debate.

00:17:22.800 And one of the reasons why it's so extreme is that it comes to us from critical theory. Now,

00:17:30.000 Jordan, you mentioned critical race theory, and that's absolutely what it is. It's critical.

00:17:33.280 It's mandatory critical race theory in the schools and universities. But critical race theory itself,

00:17:38.320 of course, is a sort of an independent branch of critical theory. And that's a larger idea,

00:17:43.040 essentially an anti-Western ideology, which regards all the features and values of the enlightenment

00:17:50.800 as inherently evil, if you like, and to be rejected. And even very basic ideas like evidence

00:17:59.520 and consistency and debate and pluralism, all those things are essentially out. And you can see

00:18:07.520 those that that rejection in the bill. The bill basically says that if you wish to debate

00:18:14.320 the validity of anti-racism, then you are on thin ice. There's even an offense

00:18:23.440 included in the bill, which says that if you disrupt or attempt to disrupt the proceedings of a school or

00:18:29.200 a class through the use of racist language, then you are guilty of an offense. And the problem is that

00:18:35.920 what they mean are going to mean by racist language is language that denies the validity of the ideology

00:18:42.080 that they're promoting. So for example, and who knows exactly, but here's a possibility. If you insist

00:18:47.840 upon debating the validity of anti-racism in a classroom by saying, no, I believe all lives matter,

00:18:55.440 and I believe all people are equal, regardless of their race or color, then you might very well be in

00:19:01.840 violation of this provision. So we should delve into that a little bit more too. So the fundamental

00:19:11.040 claim of the critical theorist types is that we use a particular kind of instrumental narratives to

00:19:18.320 structure our perceptions and actions. And that that instrumental narrative is essentially predicated

00:19:25.200 upon the use of power. And so that would be the arbitrary, the arbitrary use of compulsion to demand

00:19:35.680 the compliance of other people, particularly in relationship to their group. So that what Western

00:19:41.680 culture is in its essence and, and the attitudes and actions of everyone who composes that culture

00:19:48.480 is nothing but the attempt to utilize arbitrary power to extract excess resources from other people

00:19:56.400 through compulsion to hoard it for the purposes of that group, let's say, and that all claims about

00:20:04.960 equality of opportunity or sovereignty of the individual, or even existence of the individual for

00:20:09.840 that matter, or individual responsibility, all of that where the conservatives operate. That's nothing but

00:20:15.440 justification for justification for the arbitrary use of power and compulsion. And so even to make those

00:20:20.320 arguments. So this is one of the things that's so pernicious about the free speech debate. The

00:20:25.360 critical theorists don't engage in debate about who should have free speech and should and who shouldn't.

00:20:32.080 Their claim is that the whole idea of free speech is nothing but the attempt to add a moralizing layer

00:20:38.320 to the will to power that exploits. And all of this language that we see in this bill

00:20:45.040 is derived from that theoretical background. Yes. Now I, I, you know, I'm, I'm putting myself in the

00:20:52.560 place of the audience who's listening to us speak and all of us have been steeped in critical race

00:20:59.280 theory for years. We've been looking at it and saying, what a terrible thing it is. And I'm trying

00:21:04.240 to picture how people could get ahold of this. And maybe, maybe the example is what we entered in on.

00:21:10.720 So here we have this bill that really will promote division in our school system and the conservative,

00:21:18.240 uh, the progressive conservatives of Ontario, who are ostensibly supposed to be conservative,

00:21:24.080 all voted in favor of this bill. And even, um, there's another party we have now, the Ontario party,

00:21:31.520 uh, Rick Nichols is the sitting MP. They have a specific policy platform against this kind of stuff.

00:21:38.560 And even he voted in favor. So what's going on there, what's going on there is that

00:21:45.200 the wording, the wording is, is just beguiling for everyone. We just can't

00:21:52.240 for us to try and explain is so difficult because the left has really commandeered the definition of

00:21:59.200 words. When someone sees anti-racism, they think, of course, I want to be anti-racist.

00:22:04.160 So perhaps let's give the benefit of the doubt. Maybe the conservatives were just fooled. I know

00:22:08.880 that this fellow, Rick Nichols on the Ontario party was fooled. He had no idea that this bill

00:22:14.880 actually will promote racism in our schools. You know, David, since you mentioned the Ontario

00:22:20.800 party's platform, uh, I actually think that their, uh, their policy with regard to

00:22:27.200 teaching what they have to say, speak in our audience, I think might be interested to know

00:22:33.520 what would be the opposite. What would be, what would be a curriculum that taught

00:22:38.560 that racism was bad and all these things were bad, but that had a curriculum that was fair to every

00:22:44.560 student and they actually spell it out. And what they say is, uh, their platform, uh, in their platform,

00:22:50.800 they would make it illegal for any teacher, school administrator, or any school board official to

00:22:55.760 teach, disseminate, or promote materials to students that explicit, explicitly or implicitly state

00:23:03.280 one that males and females do not exist as separate biological realities, because of course,

00:23:10.160 gender is included subsumed under the racist umbrella, uh, will not be allowed to state, uh,

00:23:18.400 that any individual by virtue of his race or sex is inherently privileged, racist, sexist, or oppressive,

00:23:26.400 whether consciously or subconsciously, that will not be allowed to state that an individual should

00:23:32.320 be discriminated against or receive adverse treatment because of the individual's race or sex.

00:23:38.160 And you can't say that an individual by virtue of race or sex bears responsibility for actions

00:23:44.560 committed in the past by other members of the same race or sex. Uh, and finally, that, uh, any particular

00:23:52.000 Canadian province or Canada itself is fundamentally or irredeemably racist or sexist. These are all the

00:23:58.400 things you won't be allowed to say. And that I think is if you asked most Canadians, do you think that sounds

00:24:05.200 fair? They would say, yes, that that's exactly. We might want to point out that the entire

00:24:10.720 educational system that's associated with classical Western values is the most successful manifestation

00:24:21.280 of the most fundamentally non-racist ethos ever developed. And that ethos insisted that each

00:24:28.480 individual, regardless of their group membership was of intrinsic worth and characterized by natural

00:24:35.920 rights. And that it was to their advantage and to the advantage of all others that no arbitrary

00:24:41.360 barriers be put forward against them as they manifested their attempts to take their place in

00:24:49.280 the world in a manner that was reciprocally beneficial to everyone around them. And there isn't an ethos that's

00:24:56.800 more fundamentally non-racist than that one. And it's time for conservatives and liberals alike to start,

00:25:03.840 to start being apologetic about that.

00:25:06.000 Agreed. Agreed. Yeah. Can we just add, just to dive back into critical theory for a moment,

00:25:12.480 Jordan, picking up what you were saying earlier. So I believe it was James Lindsay, who is an American

00:25:20.000 critic of social justice and critical theory. He, I think he was the one who coined the term,

00:25:25.520 the iron law of woke projection. You were talking earlier about critical theory characterizing Western

00:25:33.600 society is essentially based upon a power relationship and nothing else. Abusive power

00:25:38.640 relationships in which everything that happens really is a search for power underneath the surface.

00:25:44.240 So what is happening here is that the woke, the critical theorists, the critical race theorists are

00:25:51.680 actually turning Western society into exactly that. And this bill is an example of the simple application

00:26:00.080 of power to insist upon an ideology and to essentially cast out or cancel or, or accuse of professional

00:26:09.680 misconduct. Those people who will not go along with the story that that's, that's a pure power play.

00:26:15.520 And there's really nothing, nothing else in it. It, it rejects the idea that there might be another

00:26:23.200 point of view. It rejects the idea of pluralism. It rejects the idea of debate. And it's, it's,

00:26:30.800 you know, this is called neo-Marxism for a reason. And the reason is that Marx was the one who came on

00:26:36.000 board and said, look, Western society is a power struggle, but he, he emphasized the economic struggle

00:26:41.680 between the upper and lower classes. And the critical theorists ditched that particular struggle

00:26:46.960 in favor of the struggle over identity politics and between different, but they use exactly the

00:26:52.160 same language and the same conceptualization. And I want to, I want to reiterate a couple of things,

00:26:57.440 add another detail. So first of all, here's another detail from the bill. The Ministry of Training

00:27:02.160 Colleges and Universities Act is amended to add a new section, which sets out anti-racism and racial

00:27:09.120 equity requirements that apply to every college of applied arts and technology and every university

00:27:15.520 that receives ongoing operating funds from the government for the purposes of secondary education.

00:27:20.080 So in that one section alone, which is only a small fragment of this bill, we now have a demand

00:27:26.240 from the most radical of the radical leftists, uh, possessed by critical theory and also critical

00:27:32.240 race theory that every single educational institution in Ontario at the highest level that receives ongoing

00:27:37.840 function will now be mandated to accept that ideology. And now I just can't, I just can't forgive the

00:27:44.800 conservatives for not noticing this. This is appalling. Like if there's, if they're that blind,

00:27:50.240 we're in real trouble because you shouldn't be that blind by this point in time. If you haven't

00:27:56.160 cottoned on to the fact that equity doesn't mean equality of opportunity, which is what everyone wants

00:28:00.480 it to mean, then you have been asleep at the switch for like 10 years. Well, things are falling apart

00:28:07.360 around you. Yeah. At least. So at least, yes, at least, at least 10 years. And to see written by an

00:28:15.040 NDP member, right? This bill, didn't that clue them in? Yeah. Let's talk about her for a bit.

00:28:20.400 That should have been an alarm bell right there. The, the drafter of this bill, uh, had been the head

00:28:25.760 of equity at, uh, Laurier university and had drafted the, uh, sexual violence policy, uh, under which

00:28:34.080 Lindsay shepherd, who many people will remember in 2017, uh, for having shown her students, a graduate

00:28:41.040 student for having shown her students, a balanced discussion in which you featured Jordan, uh, on

00:28:48.320 gender pronouns and shown that a segment of, of, of that panel discussion to her class was, was, uh,

00:28:55.680 invited in to be interrogated, um, in, in a session, uh, with several members of the administration

00:29:03.200 and staff of a faculty. Uh, but they told her that she was transphobic because she had, uh, she had

00:29:11.280 breached the sexual violence policy, which this individual who wrote this, uh, horrible bill

00:29:18.240 Uh, you know, that, and as you, as you say that conservatives could let this pass, uh, is really

00:29:24.080 terrible. One of the terrible things about, um, racism as it, as they understand it is that the

00:29:31.040 offense of, of having said or done something racist, uh, is judged not by your intention, but by the person

00:29:39.840 who is claims to be offended. Uh, so much for the presumption of innocence. Exactly. So just so we know

00:29:47.360 what's at stake here, right? That the new, the new ethic is it doesn't matter what you intend.

00:29:52.640 All that matters is the impact on the person claiming victim status. They don't even have to

00:29:59.280 demonstrate that in any important way that they were in fact victimized by the claim or demonstrate

00:30:05.120 any, and let's, let's just delve into that for a minute, because one of the things that's in this bill

00:30:10.400 that's so cute is also the establishment of the necessity of putting in boards of inquisition to

00:30:18.640 work, to which students can apply if they ever feel that they have been offended in any manner by

00:30:24.880 anything that anyone says. Now let's make two things clear. There you, people do say offensive

00:30:31.440 things. And I do believe that there's such a thing as hate speech because speech can be pretty vicious.

00:30:36.240 That's not the point here. The point is, is that there are now, there will be boards of inquisition

00:30:42.800 set up at all educational institutes in Ontario. If this bill passes that anyone with a grudge can

00:30:49.600 weaponize against anyone they want. And if you don't think that will happen, you are a fool

00:30:54.720 because it happens all the time and it's happening more and more at the college level board for, for

00:30:59.680 physicians and psychologists and at the law society. And so, and this is going to make the

00:31:05.680 establishment of those inquisitorial bureaucracies, which are basically extrajudicial

00:31:12.080 structures, right? Operating outside the normal judicial system without the presumption of

00:31:16.320 innocence. It's going to make the establishment of those mandatory. And so again, I can't believe

00:31:20.880 the conservatives can be so ungodly blind. It's, it's, it's, it's cataclysmically surreal.

00:31:28.320 One of the, and again, I'm just trying to bring this back to the common person and say,

00:31:34.880 how does, how does this work? And, and maybe a way to understand it is when you think the word

00:31:41.920 is going by its traditional definition or what you think it should mean, it simply doesn't.

00:31:47.200 So when we see equity, all of us think, well, equality, we think that we want to see people

00:31:53.760 have equal opportunity, but it doesn't mean that, but related to anti-racism, anti-racism means,

00:32:01.280 yes, you should discriminate against one group in this way it's whites, but not only that,

00:32:07.280 as Bruce has already suggested, it's very racist toward people of color because it suggests that you

00:32:13.280 have to rig the game in order for them to succeed. And that in and of itself is the height of racism.

00:32:20.000 But also denies, it denies them the, I've been thinking about this in regards to,

00:32:24.480 so there are claims from the critical theorist types, for example, just so everyone knows

00:32:28.640 that the concepts of merit and excellence are in themselves racist in the same way that the concept

00:32:34.960 of free speech or individual sovereignty is racist. And so I think, well, of all the demoralizing

00:32:39.840 things that you could possibly tell people who are on the, let's say on the margins of society,

00:32:47.040 the most demoralizing thing you could possibly tell them is that excellence, the idea of excellence

00:32:52.400 or the idea of merit is nothing, but a plot conjured up by your oppressors to subvert you. And that

00:32:59.280 therefore, if you strive in a meritorious way towards excellence, that you're doing nothing

00:33:03.440 but identifying with the oppressor. And you think, think about the black music scene in the United

00:33:09.440 States. I always think about that because the black culture in the United States has been so

00:33:15.120 absolutely brilliant in its musical innovation and it's changed the entire culture of the United

00:33:20.400 States and the entire culture of the world. And to tell, to, for me to think about someone like

00:33:25.520 Billie Holiday or Louis Armstrong as something other than a manifestation of individual merit in the

00:33:34.400 purest sense, in the purest and most redeeming sense is to me, utterly, it's appalling and shaming.

00:33:41.600 And then to deny that same movement towards excellence in a given domain to individuals on the margin is

00:33:50.160 the worst thing you can do for them being put forward under the guise of compassion and benevolence.

00:33:56.720 It's sickening. I agree. Conservatives should be ashamed of themselves for being so goddamn dumb.

00:34:03.200 I completely agree. Very infantilizing. It's very infantilizing to speak of people from other

00:34:09.920 backgrounds or other races as without moral agency or without the ability to compete on their own terms

00:34:18.000 against the people of other races. I agree with you, Jordan. And I go ahead, Bruce.

00:34:22.960 Well, I was going to say that it's also ironic tragedy because the ideas that would protect and

00:34:32.720 promote people who are not privileged are things like merit. I mean, the idea of having standardized

00:34:40.960 tests for entry into universities, for example, is the thing that gives people who are not wealthy,

00:34:46.480 not privileged, not connected, the opportunity to prove what it is that they can do.

00:34:52.800 The irony here is that everything is upside down. In order to understand this, you just have to take

00:34:59.440 your assumption and flip it upside down about what racism means, about what privilege means.

00:35:06.000 Essentially, this is a program that protects the privilege of all those people who are yelling about

00:35:12.960 privilege. If you take away the merit idea, then you pull the rug out from underneath

00:35:19.200 all those non-privileged people to be able to show that they are deserving of getting a spot,

00:35:25.520 getting a job, getting a, you know, having... Well, Adrian Woldrich wrote a whole book on the idea of

00:35:31.360 merit in the West. And so he showed historically, which I think is extremely interesting, that

00:35:37.440 the alternative to merit, per se, as a, let's say, as an index of selective value,

00:35:45.760 it has been dynasty and nepotism. So dynasty means that your hereditary family connections

00:35:55.600 dominate what are the most important determinant of how you progress up the ladder or whether you maintain

00:36:04.640 your position or it's callous and crass favoritism. Now, you know, the utopians might say, well,

00:36:11.680 we could scrap merit and we wouldn't revert to nepotism or dynasty, but we certainly would instantly

00:36:17.680 because that's what happened throughout history. And second, we already have. We already have.

00:36:22.160 We already have. We already reverted to that, I think. Once merit's on the way out,

00:36:27.360 you've got to have some other way for picking people. And those, the ways that are left are nepotism

00:36:32.320 and favoritism. And there's got to be some criteria for what that is, but it's got nothing

00:36:37.280 to do with the individual. It's got everything to do with who your people are.

00:36:40.880 And I mean, look at the impact of this already. We have Asian students who are applying to the elite

00:36:49.280 schools like Harvard, who now can't get in, not because their SATs weren't through the roof,

00:36:56.000 but because for the means of diversity, they're now excluded.

00:37:00.960 Yes. We should also point out that in these hypothetically white supremacist societies,

00:37:06.080 that many people who aren't so easily, what would you say, categorized as white seem to be doing

00:37:12.400 just fine. So Indian immigrants, for example, do extremely well in the United States and

00:37:18.320 East Asian immigrants do extremely well. In fact, both of those groups of people, although I hate to speak

00:37:24.000 in the language of groups, do better economically than the native born Caucasians who are hypothetically

00:37:30.080 the epicenter of racial privilege. And that's a big stick in the throat of the critical theorist

00:37:37.840 types. And they really can't adjust their theories to account for that. Go ahead, Barbara.

00:37:43.760 One of the things you're not allowed to say is that these groups, one of the reasons that they do

00:37:48.480 get ahead is because they usually have strong, uh, family support, uh, and, and a strong, uh,

00:37:56.720 work, uh, values of work, work ethic and, um, uh, yeah, well, they promote conscientiousness.

00:38:02.880 And so it's very bad based. Yeah, exactly. But you see, but you see that you're not allowed to say

00:38:08.960 that because if you, if you talk about strong families and you talk about how important fathers are,

00:38:13.920 for example, uh, that is considered racist because, um, that's like suggesting, well,

00:38:21.920 it's both misogynistic and racist because it's like suggesting that single mothers can't do

00:38:27.040 exactly the same work in bringing up, uh, productive and, and, and, um, strong, you know,

00:38:32.560 confident children as, as, uh, uh, a united family, um, a two parent family. And it's also, uh,

00:38:40.080 because it's a sore point when you talk about race is, is it also means that you validate

00:38:46.480 the oppressive institution of patriarchy, which is obviously nothing but a manifestation of men's

00:38:54.320 desire and willingness to dominate women. And I mean, nothing, but because these theories are always

00:38:59.520 nothing, but right. So let, and Bruce, you talked about projection. I always think of the critical

00:39:06.560 theorist types as manifesting a Freudian, an unconscious Freudian confession in relationship

00:39:13.200 to their own motivations is that people who believe that power is the fundamental principle

00:39:19.040 that governs social relations. They either believe there's some saintly exception to that,

00:39:25.600 or that is actually what they believe. And they assume everyone else is the same. And I've been

00:39:30.480 thinking about this technically, you know, and social relations based on power, actually unstable,

00:39:38.240 technically speaking, they don't work in chimps. They don't work in rats. They don't work well for

00:39:44.000 psychopaths who are almost always failures and never constitute more than 3% of the population. And

00:39:49.920 it's much more, you're much more likely to advance in a stable manner. If you play reciprocal

00:39:57.440 games with other people, reciprocal, mutually beneficial games with other people. And I think

00:40:02.880 that's the fundamental principle that animates Western society in its best sense. And then sometimes

00:40:08.880 that's corrupted by power. And, and, and that's a very different claim than it's power itself. It's

00:40:14.880 the fundamental ethic. Right. Right. Well, you just reminds me of that, of that, of that very well-known

00:40:20.960 saying, you know, power corrupts and absolute power corrupts. Absolutely. So if all you've got left is power,

00:40:26.720 then you have a corrupted society. And that's where we're headed.

00:40:29.600 And also think about what that does. Let's say, okay, you accept the doctrine. This is,

00:40:33.280 and I want to remind the listeners, this doctrine we're discussing is the doctrine that is now being

00:40:39.360 mandated for acceptance across all Ontario institutions of education. Right. Okay. So the doctrine is

00:40:47.040 nothing governs the social relations between people at every level, except the will to power. And that's

00:40:53.040 arbitrary use of arbitrary compulsion. So Bruce, that means you and I, if our interests differ,

00:40:59.040 we can't engage in productive dialogue about that because there's no such thing as productive dialogue.

00:41:04.960 And what that means is that if our interests aren't aligned momentarily, I have to treat you as an enemy.

00:41:10.960 And I have to assume that all you're using is your will to power. And I have no other option,

00:41:16.080 but to respond in kind. And I cannot think of a more corrosive, cynical, and bitter way of looking at

00:41:22.640 human beings than that.

00:41:23.840 That can you imagine the psychological impact on students?

00:41:30.720 If this is what they are getting, um, a daily dose of. So imagine that I imagine you are,

00:41:36.960 see it. Well, you are, you are, you are a student, you're a student who comes into the classroom and

00:41:43.120 you're a student of color and you come in without this indoctrination and you think I can be whatever

00:41:48.960 I want to be. That's what you're thinking. And then slowly over time, you're told, no,

00:41:54.240 the game is rigged against you. You can't, you can't be what you want to be. And perhaps you begin to believe

00:41:59.440 that. And that you would be able to speak to this more than I, Jordan, but I have to imagine that

00:42:05.120 there's some psychological principles out there related to whether or not you think you can

00:42:10.480 succeed. And if that doesn't have a self-fulfilling prophecy to it.

00:42:14.720 Well, look, imagine that you're told as a young person, so a young person, a young black guy, for

00:42:21.520 example, you're told that you've been propagandized into believing that there is such a thing as it,

00:42:30.240 as agency and freedom by people who are using those concepts to do nothing, but exploit you.

00:42:36.720 And so to the degree that you believe you have agency that does nothing, but provide evidence

00:42:42.400 that you're a pawn in their game. Okay. So that's, that's what they have to contend with that

00:42:48.480 demoralizing and bitterly distrustful view of the world. And then imagine that you're a young

00:42:53.120 white guy. And the whole notion is your entire culture and all the institutions that, that can,

00:42:59.200 that make it up, including marriage are nothing but the manifestation of the patriarchal desire to

00:43:04.960 oppress throughout history. And to the degree that you have any ambition whatsoever at the individual

00:43:09.760 level, that's not ambition. That's laudable. That has nothing to do with you wanting to act as a moral

00:43:16.960 agent in the world. It's nothing but that corrupt will to power that's capable of atrocity. And you

00:43:23.120 should squelch it if you're moral. And I see tens of thousands of people around the world,

00:43:30.400 people that come to my lectures, for example, who've been utterly demoralized by these propositions,

00:43:35.760 like hurt to the core, wounded to the bone. And now we're going to make it mandatory

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00:47:18.320 There was a study, there was a study done in 2019 in the Journal of Experimental Psychology

00:47:25.440 that looked specifically at what happens when you teach people about anti-racism, especially one of

00:47:33.040 its concepts, the idea of white privilege. And what they found was that it did not make people more

00:47:39.920 sympathetic to poor people of color, black people, but what it did do was make people a lot less

00:47:47.680 sympathetic to disadvantaged whites. So the only thing that this kind of teaching does is actually

00:47:53.680 create greater animosity to the disadvantaged white person, which to my mind, if you know that,

00:48:00.320 and we have studies that show that, that in and of itself should be enough to say,

00:48:04.000 we can't do this to our kids. Um, speaking of David, speaking of not doing this to our kids,

00:48:10.560 you would think that parents, some parents would be very concerned about what their kids are learning.

00:48:18.480 Concerned enough to mobilize and to, to get to coalesce into, into activism groups, uh, in the United

00:48:25.840 States, uh, there's a lot of headway being made by parents who are fed up with this kind of stuff.

00:48:32.560 There was a tremendous success in San Francisco recently by parents, not parents, but, but, but

00:48:38.720 people in general in San Francisco, which is an incredibly progressive city. I think there's

00:48:43.760 something like 6% of people vote conservative in San Francisco. And yet, uh, this school board that,

00:48:50.080 uh, had three, three people were recalled by a petition drawn up by the parents, uh, because they,

00:48:58.320 they, they, they couldn't stand the direction it was going in. It was exactly this direction and they,

00:49:03.680 they lost their, their jobs. Um, and it was considered, I think 70% of people, uh, voted,

00:49:10.640 uh, to get these people off the board. I'm sorry, the mechanism I forget, but, uh, it, it,

00:49:17.120 it was considered quite a victory for the anti CRT movement. Uh, and, uh, in the United States,

00:49:24.240 there is a real movement, uh, headed up by this Christopher Rufo Jordan. I'm sure you know him.

00:49:29.680 You've probably, uh, talked to him or followed some of his work. Uh, he has been doing great work

00:49:36.240 in, uh, helping groups to organize parents to, uh, and there's now, I don't know. I, I, I, I began my

00:49:43.760 talk to my, my column with, uh, uh, the numbers were, um, sorry, the numbers were, uh, that yes,

00:49:54.880 in 37 state, 87, uh, curriculum transparency bills have been filed by legislatures,

00:50:01.920 legislators in 37 states since the beginning of 2022 and introduced in 20 or more states.

00:50:09.440 So pretty soon you're going to start seeing, and you already do in Florida and other,

00:50:14.640 other conservative states, you're going to see a pushback against this and they're not

00:50:19.680 going to be allowed to treat. I've been talking to a lot of conservative types. Well, and Democrats

00:50:25.040 for that matter too, by the way, who are concerned that their party is being pulled far too far to the

00:50:30.880 left about the dangers of critical race theory and critical theory and diversity, inclusivity and

00:50:37.440 equity, et cetera. And there is a wider, um, degree of awareness about such things in the United

00:50:44.480 States. Um, our conservatives in Canada are falling far behind the curve. Uh, David, in order in,

00:50:52.400 in relationship to your discussion of studies, we did a study at the business school in

00:50:58.240 Rotterdam and we used a program that helps people make a future plan. And so imagine you, so you have

00:51:07.680 to lay out what you'd like in your life in seven different areas, seven important sub areas like

00:51:12.320 intimate relationships and friendships and career and education, et cetera. And, uh, we looked at four

00:51:18.400 year previous performance in the business school. And we looked at the relationship between race,

00:51:24.240 gender, race, sex, and performance. So what we saw with the Caucasian women were doing the best

00:51:30.560 followed, I believe by the non-Caucasian women and then Caucasian men, and then non-Caucasian men.

00:51:37.760 And they did this program, which was an agency program, right? So it's predicated on the idea that

00:51:43.200 you could in some sense chart your own course. And the consequence was that within the next year,

00:51:47.840 if I remember the study exactly, the non-Caucasian men had caught up to and exceeded the highest

00:51:53.440 performing Caucasian women. And we did the same thing at Mohawk college, although Mohawk never

00:51:58.560 adopted the program and curses on them for failing to do so. 90 minute plan that was agency-based

00:52:05.680 dropped their dropout rate among the young men, 50% in the first year. And so we've been using that

00:52:14.000 program online, but it's a testament to the utility of personal agency. And we can say, look, different

00:52:19.520 people face different barriers as they progress through life. And some of those are arbitrary

00:52:24.720 prejudices, that's for sure. But that doesn't mean that failing to insist that personal agency is still

00:52:33.680 a reality, a redeeming reality, and also that you really have it at your disposal if you're willing

00:52:41.760 to use it. Our cultures just aren't that corrupt. People with agency can make progress. Well, that's

00:52:47.600 what the immigrant literature certainly shows in the United States. Absolutely. When you look at,

00:52:53.920 for example, I mean, they're always held up in studies, the Nigerian blacks in America

00:53:00.000 and in Canada. I mean, they outperform the white population. Similarly, just last year, it was the first

00:53:06.720 time in the history of the Bureau of Statistics in the US that Asian women now make more on average

00:53:13.680 than white men in the US. But when you dig into that and you look at the culture, you have parents

00:53:21.040 who are saying, you can make it. You can do this. This is a country where there is a level playing field.

00:53:28.400 And that kind of self-talk or talk from parents really makes a difference.

00:53:32.560 Right. But it's that level playing field that's being threatened, right? Because you will-

00:53:38.640 By anti-racism.

00:53:39.520 By anti-racism.

00:53:40.320 That's what I mean. By anti-racism. By the idea that you will not, in fact, be treated as an individual,

00:53:46.800 but treated by the system as simply a member of your group. I mean, let's go just circle back

00:53:52.080 for a moment to the word equity and describe it in equality terms, right? There are two different

00:53:59.600 competing and opposite ideas about equality. The traditional one, the classical liberal idea

00:54:05.920 is simply that the same rules and standards should be applied to everybody without regard to who you

00:54:13.040 are, but without regard to your identity, right? So this is the equality of treatment under the law

00:54:20.800 concept. The idea that like cases should be decided alike. And we don't care. We don't care what race you

00:54:26.480 are. We don't care what sex you are. It doesn't matter. The same legal rules are going to be applied

00:54:31.680 and justice should be blind. The competing idea, which is substantive equality, or if you like,

00:54:39.040 equity, is the idea that the same rules and standards should not be applied to every individual,

00:54:47.600 but they should be changed depending upon the group that you belong to. And once that idea gets

00:54:53.520 incorporated, it's incorporated. And by the way, it has been incorporated into Canadian law

00:54:57.920 over the past 40 years. And this, this bill will incorporate it into every classroom from K to 12.

00:55:04.320 That's, that's absolutely true. But, but my point is that the ground has been laid,

00:55:08.400 the groundwork has been laid already. And, and we are, we are in a really bad spot. And this,

00:55:13.280 this bill is a terrible, terrible thing and needs to be defeated, but it's, it's not a sudden thing.

00:55:19.360 It is, it is shocking, but not surprising. Well, so let's go back to the issue of why

00:55:26.640 the conservatives, let's say, had the wool pulled over their eyes. I mean, they didn't pay any attention

00:55:33.360 to the fact that it was someone who regards herself as a democratic socialist, uh, to say the least,

00:55:40.640 pen this bill. Like that was an alarm bell, especially given her previous activities. And then there's the,

00:55:46.880 all the equity language. And, and I'd like to talk briefly about the weaponization of guilt,

00:55:52.880 because one of the ways these ideas are put forward is by accusing people who oppose them

00:55:59.120 of the most heinous motivations and say for, and that will happen certainly in the aftermath of this

00:56:04.960 conversation is that the reason that we oppose this bill is because we are essentially racist. And,

00:56:10.800 you know, if you're a decent person and a bunch of people come after you and say,

00:56:16.640 you're a racist, you're prejudiced, especially if you're conscientious and conservatives tend to be

00:56:21.920 that you're going to examine your conscience and you're going to feel set back on your heels because,

00:56:27.760 you know, how often do a bunch of people come and accuse you of something that's absolutely not true.

00:56:32.560 And so as conscientious people fall over themselves to step backwards because they're willing to take

00:56:40.000 some responsibility when accused, all it does is allow the people who are pushing these ideas forward

00:56:45.840 to do it without any opposition. And, you know, I was thinking about this a lot. So say, well,

00:56:52.080 we're all the beneficiaries to some degree of our arbitrary talents and the advantages we've been given

00:56:57.920 even by history. And the right way to respond to that is by living a responsible, productive,

00:57:04.720 and reciprocal life and trying to make good use of, you know, what you've been granted by grace.

00:57:11.840 That's the proper mode of atonement, not to wallow in guilt and then let ideologues

00:57:17.040 trump all over you, which is exactly what's happening right now.

00:57:19.840 You mentioned the, the conservatives again. And I, I was thinking about, uh, back in 2020,

00:57:30.320 when the George Floyd was thing, uh, thing was happening, um, the tragic death of George Floyd.

00:57:35.920 And we had Doug Ford come out and say that, you know, Ontario or Bruce or Barbara might remember

00:57:43.040 better. I think it was Ontario or maybe it was Canada was systemically racist. At first he said,

00:57:47.760 no, but it was at that point that I realized that something's going on within the conservative

00:57:52.480 party where they've, they've, they're imbibing at the critical race theory tap.

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01:00:37.920 Yeah, well, I think it's part of this weaponization of guilt. Go ahead, Bruce.

01:00:41.600 No, I was just going to say, listen, the Ontario Progressive Conservative Party have not behaved like

01:00:48.320 what they claim to be for a long time. I mean, you can identify nearly anything. You can include

01:00:52.880 their draconian COVID policies. You can include the way that Doug Ford stripped truckers of their

01:01:01.920 licenses without due process. You can identify just about anything.

01:01:04.880 But you could say, oh, go ahead.

01:01:07.200 No, no. Go ahead, Bart.

01:01:08.560 Well, I was going to say, you could say that about the, I mean, the federal conservatives are no better.

01:01:12.720 Uh, they voted for the conversion bill, which would allow, which would insist that

01:01:18.720 every child that questions that has any question at all about their, their gender identity should

01:01:23.680 only be affirmed. And, and, and, and you shouldn't, uh, doctors would be criminals.

01:01:27.920 Right. Right.

01:01:28.720 If they looked into any other, uh, you know, so women, I'd like to comment on that for a sec,

01:01:34.880 Barb, if you don't mind, because I've thought about that in relationship to therapists, because

01:01:39.360 the mandated requirements for therapeutic conversations are even more stringent

01:01:45.280 therapists, neither affirm nor deny what therapists do is attempt to have truthful

01:01:51.840 conversations with people about confusing situations. And so if I, all of a sudden as a therapist

01:01:58.160 and mandated to affirm all the choices of my clients, then I'm no longer a therapist. What I am instead

01:02:06.160 is a cowardly advocate for whim. And, and now that's law. Yes. That's law.

01:02:13.520 Conservatives all, they all voted for it. Uh, you could, I am sure, I am sure that under bill 67,

01:02:20.000 it will be considered, they'll call it racist. I mean, anti-racist to, to deny that biology is,

01:02:29.040 exists on a spectrum. Uh, if you say, I don't, I, I, I don't believe that trans women, uh,

01:02:36.160 are women that will be hate speech, uh, gender wise, it'll cover a variety of, uh, you know,

01:02:43.760 or if you say, I don't think that, that, that, uh, male rapists who claim to be female should be

01:02:50.560 in female prisons and women's prisons, that might be deemed racist, anything that

01:02:55.520 any of the mantras that, that go along with any of the ideologies that are presently, you know,

01:03:04.080 so the, the federal liberals, federal conservatives are just as bad as the provincial ones. Uh, I think

01:03:10.160 what we're witnessing here is, you know, uh, a revolution that's over. Um, they've won and, and this is

01:03:19.360 mopping up operations, uh, putting these bills in place is simply, you know, everybody's lying around

01:03:25.200 on the battlefield too, too exhausted to put up a fight anymore. So it's like, okay, uh, now,

01:03:33.360 you know, here, here are the actual laws, uh, here are the laws that are going to make sure that we

01:03:40.480 stay that, that what we want, uh, entrenched is going to stay there forever, unless, you know.

01:03:46.640 And, and in that respect, uh, the, the U S has something that we do not, which is an actual

01:03:53.280 political opposition, you know, connect, but go ahead. Yeah. I'm just saying that, that we are

01:04:01.040 seeing if, if we're saying that the, uh, the battle's over, we still see the guerrilla fighters.

01:04:05.920 Oh yeah. Right. Yep. And, and I mean, uh, let's get back to this notion. We, we do have

01:04:12.720 some, some parties that are trying to gather support for common sense and whether it's federally

01:04:18.480 with the, the, uh, people's party and they're demonized, right? The mainstream media hate them.

01:04:23.360 So they're, they, they don't get any kind of fair coverage, but now at the provincial level,

01:04:28.800 we've got a party like the Ontario party, which is putting forth the kind of ideas that would actually

01:04:34.880 bring unity and harmony. But again, they'll be villainized because the, the media is totally on

01:04:41.600 board with this particular agenda of critical race theory as well. So that's right. And yeah,

01:04:46.400 I'm just going to say that, that the Ontario party has zero support and, and the PPC people's party,

01:04:53.760 uh, couldn't even field, they couldn't even, you know, get, uh, Maxine Bernier into, into office.

01:04:59.600 So, and I agree with that. And, and, and a lot of the pushback in the, in the U S you see coming

01:05:05.920 from parents themselves, like in Virginia, for example. And the real question, I think in this

01:05:10.240 circumstance with bill 67 is whether, um, a, a critical mass of parents, once they find out what

01:05:17.120 this really is, as opposed to what it appears to be, if they would respond by saying, you know,

01:05:22.880 no, no way, like, heck, you're not, you're not educating my children in a system like that.

01:05:29.120 And, you know, that, that really remains to be seen how many parents in Ontario would,

01:05:36.560 would respond in the same way as a lot of parents have in various places in the U S and say this,

01:05:42.240 this just won't do as opposed to going along with the prevailing Canadians, Canadians have been

01:05:49.680 able to trust in the fundamental integrity of their social institutions for most of our 150 year

01:05:58.160 history. And so the default assumption has been, well, people generally know what they're doing,

01:06:04.240 if they're leading us and they're not leading us down the garden path. And the problem with bill,

01:06:09.120 like bill C six bill 67 and getting people to understand it is that they also have to simultaneously

01:06:15.360 swallow the fact that our fundamental institutions, educational and political have become so

01:06:20.800 compromised and so co-opted by, by derivatives of a narrative so radical that even most Democrats

01:06:29.360 on the left rejected out hand. Well, who's going to believe that, you know, it's a lot easier to think

01:06:36.240 that the four of us are, you know, right-wing conspiracy theorists and that this is all nonsense.

01:06:42.560 And in fact, it's easier for me to believe that sometimes than to believe the alternative,

01:06:47.520 but I read this bill and I know what equity means. And I know it's, it's ideological derivatives and the

01:06:53.520 underlying idea system. And so, yeah, I I've said before that our, that our biggest obstacle is disbelief.

01:07:01.440 People don't believe it. People don't believe that what we're describing could actually be true.

01:07:07.280 It's just so far out of the zone of what they consider to be normal life, normal civilized

01:07:12.480 life in this country that, that it's very hard to take in and unless you've sort of seen it for

01:07:18.720 yourself in front of your own eyes over and over again, and you're forced to admit that it's actually

01:07:22.880 happening. And so, you know, media research is one of the things I do. And, and this isn't my work,

01:07:31.520 but it's a guy named Zach Goldberg. He's out of Georgia state university. Anyway, Zach looked at what

01:07:39.600 was going on in mainstream media related to coverage of race and race, the word race, the word equity,

01:07:47.120 the word anti-racism it's gone up by a thousand percent in the last, well, he's, he was marking from

01:07:55.440 2013 and 2014. And here's the interesting thing. When you look at other sociological data during

01:08:02.640 that time, racial tensions in terms of other societal measures were going down. They, the

01:08:09.840 United States had a black president. And so it was actually getting better. But if you read the news,

01:08:15.600 particularly the more left leading. Um, so he had looked at New York times. He looked at the

01:08:20.800 Washington post. It, it was saying exactly the opposite and people were being convinced. And in

01:08:28.240 particular, he found this is Goldberg's work. Again, he found that those people who were over

01:08:33.280 liberal persuasion were even more convinced that, that we were going to hell in a handbasket in terms

01:08:39.680 of racial division. Yeah. Well, his work pointed out that as these press institutions

01:08:45.280 got, uh, started to hire recent graduates from universities who had been indoctrinated into

01:08:53.600 this theory, they started using that language in their articles and that seeped into the popular

01:08:59.440 culture. So it wasn't that racism became worse in the domain of real interactions. And then people

01:09:06.480 noticed it was that the journalists educated at high level institutions who were hired by these,

01:09:12.320 uh, hypothetical news sources insisted that this was the case and started to introduce that doctrine

01:09:20.320 into the entire culture. And, and well, with this bill, for example, being a late consequence of that.

01:09:26.640 Well, we can, we can actually transpose that we can transpose that onto universities. So,

01:09:31.680 um, one of the, there was a guy, uh, Paul Kallstad out of, um, Texas A&M. And what he showed was that

01:09:40.800 the news media drive the perceptions in the culture. And then the culture kind of becomes

01:09:45.360 what the news media said it was. Well, that's going to happen with, with these kinds of bills

01:09:49.520 as we pass them, uh, provincially you'll have students who never thought about racial disharmony

01:09:56.400 who suddenly that becomes their, their only thing on their mind. And, and it will just cascade.

01:10:03.520 We might want to point out is that this kind of propaganda is really easy for incompetent people

01:10:10.160 to teach because you only have to master about two principles. So the first principle is,

01:10:15.200 well, let's say there's nothing that motivates human beings and their institutions, except

01:10:19.440 the naked desire for power. So, okay. And then the second thing is, is that people should be

01:10:26.800 categorized by group. And that doesn't require much differentiated thinking because who cares about

01:10:32.960 all those pesky individuals. And then the third thing you have to accept is that the world is best

01:10:37.120 construed as an eternal war between oppressors and those who are victimized and exploited by them,

01:10:43.920 by every institution. Now, master those three things. You can teach everything you need to

01:10:50.320 teach about diversity, inclusivity, equity, all of that. It's a substitute for actual knowledge.

01:10:56.320 The fourth thing is you've got to keep moving the goalposts because for revolutionaries,

01:11:01.040 the revolution can never end. I mean, they're, they're not in it for it to end there. They're

01:11:06.480 in it to keep it going because that's, what's exciting for them. So in other words, what was

01:11:10.560 racist 50 years ago or 20 years ago, uh, would be a racist action or, or somebody saying a terrible

01:11:17.680 thing or the N word or whatever it is. Now they, since that's diminished, now they've moved the goalposts

01:11:23.680 so that it's, well, it's unconscious. Yeah. You're not seeing, oh, it doesn't matter if you don't see

01:11:27.840 the racism. Then there's these microaggressions and there's, there's what's in your mind. It used

01:11:32.480 to be an action. You used to have to behave in a racist way. Now they're telling you what's in your

01:11:40.160 mind. And so you don't have to act at all. You can be even worse than that. It's worse than that,

01:11:45.520 Barb, as you pointed out before, because you don't even have to, to be prejudiced. You just have

01:11:52.400 to be perceived as prejudiced by someone. That's it. And that actually, because there's no you,

01:11:58.240 there's no soul there. There's no individual there. All you are is the consequences of your actions.

01:12:04.960 And you think, could you come up with a principle of justice more appalling than that is that none of

01:12:11.120 us are going to be judged again on our intentions, but only by the worst consequences of our actions.

01:12:19.280 Unbelievable. Barbara has, has reminded me, and she said it really eloquently of the idea of concept

01:12:28.560 creep. So concept creep, it was, um, uh, Nick, uh, Haslam, a guy at, uh, university of Melbourne came

01:12:36.560 out with this around 2016. And he was basically saying the definition of negative, uh, negative terms

01:12:43.360 has expanded. So that's, that's where you get, uh, now racism is equal to any kind of disparity.

01:12:52.960 So if you see unequal outcomes, that is de facto racism, which is crazy. There are many reasons why

01:13:01.040 there might be a different outcomes of which racism is probably the least in our society. But now,

01:13:08.080 according to anti-racism, and this is really one of their key tenants of their faith, because it is

01:13:12.960 like a religion, they say any disparity is evidence of racism. And when you've got any

01:13:20.480 suggestion to the contrary is racism. Yes. I agree. Unless the disparity goes the wrong direction.

01:13:28.000 That's right. Right. Right. Yeah. Cause that's the weird thing. That's the thing about this. It's also

01:13:33.360 so peculiar because certainly the success of Asians in particular in, let's say the United States and

01:13:39.440 Canada, it puts, puts the, uh, poses a significant challenge to the domination theory. It's like,

01:13:49.360 well, so, you know, Asians are intrigued, increasingly treated like honorary whites in this regard,

01:13:55.440 let's say. Well, they're white adjacent. They're white adjacent. Exactly. Right. Right. And,

01:13:59.920 and, and, and Jews and Jews are considered hyper white, hyper white because they used to be victims.

01:14:06.320 And now they're victimizers. There's a trap here though. There's a trap and the trap is,

01:14:11.520 it is a trap. Well, the trap, the real trap is to try and work this out rationally in a way that

01:14:19.040 assumes it's rational and assumes that it's consistent because those are the two of the things that have

01:14:24.480 been rejected. If, if things are not consistent, if they're not rational, they don't care about

01:14:31.200 that. That's not the point. The point is to achieve what it is that they have in mind. Right.

01:14:36.880 So this goes back to the, the, so let's go back to, to critical theory and postmodernism just for a

01:14:44.400 minute. Right. So there's, there's postmodernism suggests that there is no such thing as objective

01:14:50.320 truth. Truth, truth, truth is personal. And you know, I could live with that because the, the,

01:14:57.840 the logical extension of that idea is, well, that everybody makes up their own truth.

01:15:03.840 So if you think that you are a certain kind of person and you want to believe that that's fine.

01:15:09.360 And if somebody else doesn't agree, then that's fine too, because they have their truth.

01:15:14.960 But the thing is that that idea that truth is subjective is not carried through. What they

01:15:21.360 basically say is, you know, there is no truce except our truce, which you will comply with

01:15:29.280 under penalty. And that's what this bill is doing. This bill says, oh, by the way, here's the truth.

01:15:35.920 You will do it or you will be cast out. And not worse than that, worse than that.

01:15:41.680 Yeah. You will do it or you will be cast out. And we're going to insist that you participate in the

01:15:50.000 process by which your children are led to think this way. Yes. Yes. Now that's a lot of that's

01:15:57.040 been rejected by parents in the U S it was that that just went too far. They would accept this to

01:16:01.920 some degree for themselves, but parents wouldn't accept it for their children.

01:16:04.880 Well, they're accepting it here and they're accepting. Look, I thought, I thought the rubber

01:16:11.280 would hit the road with gender. I thought that parents would rise up, uh, when their children

01:16:16.880 were, you know, shown the gender bread figure and unicorn. Yeah. The unicorn and, and girls aren't

01:16:24.720 really, well, girls can be boys if they want and boys can be girls. And I mean, I, I thought,

01:16:29.600 whoa, whoa, whoa, parents will never accept this. Uh, and a few parents didn't, but on the whole,

01:16:35.200 um, they, as you say, people don't want to be shunned. They don't want to be isolated and they're

01:16:43.120 afraid to stick their heads over the parapet, especially Canadians. Uh, we don't have a tradition

01:16:48.800 of it. Um, and I fear that this, this fascination with niceness, uh, it will be the death of us culturally,

01:16:56.720 because, uh, you know, at a certain point it is too late to turn back. And I think once this bill

01:17:03.840 is passed, that is a sign that, um, well, this is the permanent in it, in, in Ontario,

01:17:10.000 the passing of this bill is in some sense, the permanent defeat of a classically liberal or

01:17:18.720 conservative ethos because it is, it is capture of the education system. And so that isn't just a

01:17:24.880 battle that's won. Now that's a battle that's won for the next 40 years. And it's a mandated victory.

01:17:30.640 Yeah. So it's a complete bloody catastrophe. Uh, no question. It's, it's, it's, it's putting

01:17:36.320 into formal legislative terms, what has really already happened. I mean, I'm not sure how much

01:17:42.160 on the ground will change. It's just that now it is a statutory mandate and, and much more easily

01:17:47.120 enforced than it was before, but, but the circumstances inside the schools now and inside the universities

01:17:52.160 is already traveled a huge distance to in this direction. I think you're missing. I think you're

01:18:00.480 missing one thing though, Bruce, they'll, they'll be allowed to purge. Oh yes. They'll be able to

01:18:05.440 allowed to purge the dissenters. And, and this is what, this is what will happen. And you know,

01:18:10.400 the dissenter is going to be the person who puts forward empirical evidence, even though it's empirical,

01:18:16.720 but it will somehow be deemed, well, that's racist. For example, let's say that I, I bring out a

01:18:23.360 statistics, Canada data that shows that right now, um, Asian Canadians make more than a Caucasian

01:18:31.920 and black. Well, if that offends someone, if that somehow is deemed to be a racist, because remember

01:18:39.200 racism is in the eye of the beholder, the person who's begrudged. Well, maybe now I can be purged for

01:18:45.040 saying something like that, or what if I, maybe now you will be required to be purged. It's not

01:18:50.400 even an allowance. So you understate the danger, right? Is that these boards are set up so that

01:18:56.480 the mandate is that anyone who expresses opinions that can be, uh, uh, misinterpreted in any way as

01:19:03.600 not anti-racist in this strict sense. So, so divulging from the equity doctrine in any way,

01:19:09.360 they have to be, uh, punished and, and eliminated in some, in some true sense.

01:19:16.640 So it's a complete route. This is, it's a dystopia in statutory form, right?

01:19:25.120 Right. Well, well, we've probably, yeah, well, it's, it is, it is unbelievably gloomy. And to see the

01:19:34.320 conservatives do this to themselves is, is it's something staggering to behold. I, I,

01:19:42.240 every day something happens in Canada that I just can't believe would happen. And there it is,

01:19:47.440 it happens. And then the next day, something that's even more unbelievable happens. And now we have this

01:19:52.560 bill. And so, so as Barbara pointed out, there, there are some people who are speaking out. There are,

01:20:01.760 there's, there's a new group. There's, um, fair fair. Uh, it's, it's an organization. I think Barbara

01:20:08.000 has, uh, even written about that. Um, I see that there was an Ontario chapter. I think that slowly,

01:20:14.560 well, I'm, I'm hopeful. I, I look at, I look at groups like the Ontario party and I look at their

01:20:20.480 policy to try and reverse this. I look at fair and they're trying to organize parents in a way that will

01:20:26.720 get rid of this critical race theory. And I think that these are green shoots

01:20:31.200 and it's just getting momentum. And then, and, you know, I'm going to make a connection to current

01:20:36.000 events. I look at what happened with the truckers, the freedom convoy, who would have thought that,

01:20:41.600 uh, such passive Canadians would actually stick it out and go and, uh, peacefully protest as they did.

01:20:48.800 And if you saw any of those, uh, overpass where people were there cheering on the truckers with their

01:20:54.080 flags, those are just moms and dads, everyday people. Maybe they'll channel that same kind of energy

01:20:59.520 into the protection of their kids in the school system. Yeah. And risk having their bank accounts

01:21:04.800 frozen. Yeah. And if only they had a political party that they could invest all that energy in,

01:21:10.400 the problem problem is they don't and any that they do, uh, like the Ontario party is not going

01:21:15.360 to grow though. It's going to stay fringe and it's going to stay very tiny. Uh, so it's a serious

01:21:21.040 problem. So let's say people should, should go, go, go ahead. But I was just going to say,

01:21:26.400 I do agree with Dave that, that, that, that, that the, that, the trucker convoy and the phenomenon

01:21:31.920 that it, that it launched is actually a hopeful sign. Do you've got, you've got the, the shoots,

01:21:38.000 as he said, of, of something coming together, some kind of political realignment or the coming

01:21:43.600 together of an actual opposition inside the population, you know, whether it will have,

01:21:50.160 you know, maybe able to be sustained and grow remains to be seen, but my goodness, that was,

01:21:56.080 that was the best thing that I've seen happen in this country for a long time.

01:22:02.160 Yeah. Well, hopefully the conservatives at least could be enticed to give voice to some of that

01:22:08.320 frustration in a manner that was actually productive. We could hope that that would happen.

01:22:12.240 Um, I guess every, we should ask people who are listening, call your MLA in Ontario. If you're

01:22:21.600 in Ontario, call your member of the provincial parliament and let them know that you're not

01:22:26.800 happy about this, right? Talk to people, write to the minister of education, write to Doug Ford,

01:22:35.120 tell them this has to stop. And we should, we should underline the point that it's not actually passed

01:22:42.080 yet. It's passed second reading. It's going to committee. It will need to pass third reading.

01:22:47.040 So there's time for the MPPs to change their minds on this. So it's not actually done yet.

01:22:52.240 If people are trying to get an understanding of this, um, John McWhorter, who's at, uh,

01:22:59.520 I think he's Columbia. He's just written a book. Uh, does anybody know that? Is it woke racism? Is that what he calls it?

01:23:05.040 Uh, I think it is woke racism. Yeah. And, uh, really what he does is he says, why anti-racism

01:23:13.040 exactly what's happening with this bill, why it is racist. And he takes a lot of time to explain it.

01:23:18.720 So that's a read that some people might want to take a look at.

01:23:22.320 Yeah. Yeah. It's woke racism, John McWhorter. Yeah. So yes, that would definitely be worth taking a look

01:23:28.720 at. And so I want to just close this and sum up and you guys can make whatever comments you want

01:23:34.080 afterwards. So what we're seeing here to put it bluntly, just so everyone listening knows is that

01:23:40.560 a doctrine of cultural criticism, so radical that moderate leftist Democrats rejected out of hand

01:23:50.320 is now going to be written into the law, governing all of our educational institutions in a province

01:23:56.880 in Canada governed by conservatives. Right. Yep. Now that's going to, that propaganda is going to become

01:24:05.440 the mandated ethos of the entire education system. And it's being done in such a underhanded and morally

01:24:14.560 manipulative manner that the very people that it's being done to the most intensely. And that would

01:24:21.440 be the conservative types are cowed into participating in the process. Yes. Yes, absolutely.

01:24:33.200 That's it. That's it.

01:24:34.560 That's it. That's all folks. All right. Thank you for getting together so quickly,

01:24:43.200 everyone, and for being willing to share your remarkably unpopular opinions at some peril to

01:24:51.280 yourselves. I was loving, you didn't know what was going on, Jordan, but Barb and I, I I'm hoping

01:24:57.680 that the Ontario party will make some headway and Barb is far more realistic about this. So I was,

01:25:02.400 I was, I was enjoying, we were sparring a little bit and you didn't even know.

01:25:07.360 I was really, I was really enjoying it. Anyway, I it's, it's, it's good to be in such, uh, it's

01:25:13.840 although unpopular company, uh, uh, in our culture, I consider it an honor, uh, to be part of this small

01:25:21.280 band of brothers and sister. Um, and all the rest of us who are, uh, as I said to Bruce before we started,

01:25:30.240 I said, it's, it's kind of ironic that, uh, everybody who agrees who's, who's on our side,

01:25:36.000 who's a dissenter, uh, on this, we all know each other. And in a country of 38 million people, that's,

01:25:41.920 that's kind of a harsh, uh, reality, uh, sad, it's a sad reality, but say not the struggle.

01:25:49.840 No, what's even sadder. I feel like Cassandra, you know, I look at these things. I looked at

01:25:55.760 them 10 years ago and I have this curse. I can see where things are going. And I think, oh,

01:26:01.360 this is going in this colossally stupid direction. And it's, it can't be the case that it's really

01:26:07.840 going to get to that point. Is it? And then it just happens over and over and over and over.

01:26:14.720 And this bill is the most, this makes bill C 16 look like child's play. Exactly. So this is exactly

01:26:21.280 so it's, it's a hard, it's a hard lesson to swallow. They really mean it. They really mean it. All of it.

01:26:30.480 Yep. Yep. Beware Canadians. You bloody well better wake up.

01:26:44.720 Beware Canadians.

01:26:57.320 Yeah.

The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast - March 12, 2022

234. Kill Bill (67) ｜ Pardy, Haskell, Kay

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