The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast - 258. Beyond Order： 12 More Rules for Life

00:00:00.960 Hey everyone, real quick before you skip, I want to talk to you about something serious and important.

00:00:06.480 Dr. Jordan Peterson has created a new series that could be a lifeline for those battling depression and anxiety.

00:00:12.740 We know how isolating and overwhelming these conditions can be, and we wanted to take a moment to reach out to those listening who may be struggling.

00:00:20.100 With decades of experience helping patients, Dr. Peterson offers a unique understanding of why you might be feeling this way in his new series.

00:00:27.420 He provides a roadmap towards healing, showing that while the journey isn't easy, it's absolutely possible to find your way forward.

00:00:35.360 If you're suffering, please know you are not alone. There's hope, and there's a path to feeling better.

00:00:41.780 Go to Daily Wire Plus now and start watching Dr. Jordan B. Peterson on depression and anxiety.

00:00:47.460 Let this be the first step towards the brighter future you deserve.

00:00:51.040 Hi everyone. I'm pleased to announce the release of my new book, Beyond Order, 12 More Rules for Life.

00:01:04.000 I've been thinking for quite a while about what I would do to announce this book, and what popped into my mind constantly was that I should start the announcement with a thank you

00:01:17.260 to all my viewers, listeners and readers for the tremendous support that you've shown to my work in all of its forms and for the multitude of kind and thoughtful and often erudite

00:01:38.060 and moving letters that you've sent to me and comments that you've sent to me and to my family and comments that you've left on YouTube and other forms of social media.

00:01:49.760 I've been constantly amazed, and I mean constantly, and I mean amazed, by the volume of correspondence that has come my way and by the continual support I've received from so many people.

00:02:09.120 And so I'm pleased to have been of use, I'm pleased that people found my last book, 12 Rules for Life, helpful and engaging, and I hope very much that the same thing will prove true of this new book.

00:02:28.580 I'm going to read the 12 Rules from this book, and then I'm going to read some excerpts from it so that you can get a sense of the book.

00:02:42.340 These 12 Rules, like the 12 Rules in the previous book, were drawn from a longer list of 42 that I published on Quora.

00:02:52.840 Rule 1, do not carelessly denigrate social institutions or creative achievement.

00:03:02.360 Rule 2, imagine who you could be and then aim single-mindedly at that.

00:03:12.140 Rule 3, do not hide unwanted things in the fog.

00:03:17.080 Rule 4, notice that opportunity lurks where responsibility has been abdicated.

00:03:27.220 Rule 5, do not do what you hate.

00:03:33.660 Rule 6, abandon ideology.

00:03:38.320 Rule 7, work as hard as you possibly can on at least one thing and see what happens.

00:03:47.080 Rule 8, perhaps my favorite.

00:03:51.460 Try to make one room in your home as beautiful as possible.

00:03:56.960 Rule 9, if old memories still upset you, write them down carefully and completely.

00:04:05.900 Rule 10, plan and work diligently to maintain the romance in your relationship.

00:04:11.700 Rule 11, do not allow yourself to become resentful, deceitful, or arrogant.

00:04:23.380 And Rule 12, be grateful in spite of your suffering.

00:04:28.720 Each of these rules is accompanied by an illustration.

00:04:32.520 As in the case of my previous book, this time, the illustrator is Yulia Fogra, and she's done, I think, a lovely job.

00:04:42.360 We held a competition for the illustrations, and her work was, at least in my opinion, the best of the bunch.

00:04:51.120 And she's produced these lovely artworks that have a classical fairytale appeal.

00:04:59.560 And so I think they add a bit of beauty to the book.

00:05:04.000 Why Beyond Order?

00:05:05.320 What is the genesis of that title?

00:05:08.020 How did you arrive at that title?

00:05:09.280 As far as I can tell, in the world of value, so let's think about value for a minute.

00:05:22.280 If you move towards something, you value it.

00:05:26.980 Otherwise, you wouldn't move towards it.

00:05:29.980 There's an old joke about the chicken.

00:05:31.880 Why did the chicken cross the road?

00:05:33.980 And the answer to that is, well, he thought the other side was better.

00:05:36.520 Well, that's the case, you know.

00:05:41.140 And in order, we need a gradient of value to organize our action.

00:05:48.220 And you have to prioritize, because you can't do everything at once.

00:05:51.600 And so you do the thing that's most important right now, now.

00:05:55.380 And that means you're in a world of importance.

00:05:58.300 And that's a value.

00:05:59.900 That's a value world.

00:06:01.480 And the value world, as far as I can tell, has two broad components.

00:06:05.140 The Taoists talked about it as yin and yang.

00:06:08.180 And broadly speaking, it's order and chaos.

00:06:11.720 And order tends to be represented with masculine symbols.

00:06:15.560 And chaos tends to be represented with feminine symbols.

00:06:19.800 That doesn't mean order is male and chaos is female.

00:06:24.400 And, you know, I've been pilloried for this, even though it's hardly my proposition.

00:06:28.660 But the idea of the patriarchy is a symbolic, it's a use of masculine symbolism to represent order.

00:06:43.160 So, anyways, order is where what happens, order is, you're in order when what you want to happen happens, when you act.

00:06:54.040 And so that's reassuring, because not only do you get what you want, but the fact that you get what you want indicates that your theory about how to get what you want is true.

00:07:04.840 And every time you fail, you don't get what you want, but you also undermine the validity of the theory that you're using to organize your perceptions and your actions.

00:07:14.300 That's partly why people don't like to fail, because you don't know how far back that can echo, how far down your hierarchy of presuppositions that can echo. 0.70

00:07:25.000 If you're clinically depressed, every minor failure means you're a worthless human being.

00:07:29.360 And you never know when a failure is going to demonstrate that, you know, it can, in any case.

00:07:36.760 There's chaos and order, they're the two great domains.

00:07:39.460 And you have to contend with chaos, because too much of it overwhelms you, you drown in it, it's the flood.

00:07:48.840 And that happens when your life gets beyond you.

00:07:53.140 And you're somewhere where no matter what you do, nothing you want happens.

00:07:56.900 It's a domain of terror and pain.

00:07:59.480 Now, it's also a domain of unlimited possibility, because outside of what you know is everything you don't know.

00:08:07.700 And there's untold riches to be gathered from the domain of everything you don't know.

00:08:13.280 But that doesn't mean it still needs to be managed.

00:08:17.660 It's dangerous.

00:08:18.900 Now, the domain of order is the same way.

00:08:20.880 It's like, if order becomes too extreme, then everything becomes cramped.

00:08:26.960 It becomes totalitarian.

00:08:28.440 And then that starts to pathologize.

00:08:31.980 That's the dying king.

00:08:33.580 The king who's dying for lack of the water of life is the old tyrant who can no longer see beyond his own presuppositions.

00:08:40.900 And so, my first book concentrated more on pathologies of chaos, and the second book more on pathologies of order.

00:08:52.000 And they're a matched set in that regard, insofar as I was successful at doing that.

00:08:57.920 And, you know, the liberal types, they're very sensitive to pathologies of order.

00:09:03.020 And the conservative types are very sensitive to pathologies of chaos.

00:09:07.540 But they're both right.

00:09:09.400 It's just, there's no final solution to that problem.

00:09:13.980 You're stuck with it.

00:09:15.220 It's an existential, it's an eternal existential concern.

00:09:21.300 That's why mythological language is standard across people, is no matter who you are, no matter when you live,

00:09:27.040 you always have to deal with the fact that some things escape your competence.

00:09:31.460 And no matter where you are, no matter who you are, you have to, you have to adapt to the fact of the existence of a value structure that's shared across a social group.

00:09:43.960 It's the fundamental, so those are fundamental constituent elements of human experience.

00:09:49.040 And we have symbols for them.

00:09:51.680 And we all understand the symbols.

00:09:53.400 So, for example, in Pinocchio, this is, I'm not going to go into this because it's too complicated, but

00:09:58.220 no one balks at a puppet going to the bottom of the ocean and being swallowed by a whale.

00:10:07.460 Why?

00:10:08.700 It makes no sense.

00:10:10.940 There's nothing about that that makes sense.

00:10:13.800 Right?

00:10:14.280 It's not, it's obviously not an empirical description of the objective world, but it's so clearly real that a four-year-old can follow it.

00:10:26.660 It's a mystery.

00:10:29.280 You know, the whale breathes fire in Pinocchio.

00:10:32.960 It's a dragon.

00:10:33.960 And, why?

00:10:40.000 Why is that?

00:10:40.800 Well, we face dragons forever.

00:10:43.140 That's what a human being is.

00:10:44.620 It's a creature that faces the dragon.

00:10:48.720 The dragon can burn you to a crisp, but it has, it has what you need.

00:10:53.520 That's the world.

00:10:55.180 It'll burn you up, but it has what you need.

00:10:58.280 And so then the question is, how do you stop from getting burned up and get what you need?

00:11:02.220 And the answer to that is that you mold yourself into the hero.

00:11:06.760 And that's a religious story.

00:11:08.740 And you would say, well, is it true?

00:11:10.380 And the answer to that is, it depends on what you mean by true.

00:11:16.340 And, you know, that's a weasel answer in some ways, but it's not.

00:11:19.960 It's because it's such a deep question that it can't be put forth without discussing the definition of true.

00:11:28.720 So, it's as deep a question as, what is true?

00:11:33.440 Now, you know, it could be that the, I would say that part of the cultural war is a criticism of the motif of the hero.

00:11:44.940 So, that's Derrida's phallogocentrism.

00:11:49.200 Western culture is phallogocentric.

00:11:51.300 I would say human culture is phallogocentric.

00:11:54.700 I think Derrida was wrong about that.

00:11:56.380 It's human culture.

00:11:58.480 It's man, so to speak, against nature.

00:12:01.420 Although sometimes it's man against culture, and sometimes it's man against man.

00:12:05.880 It's man against nature, and we triumph as the hero.

00:12:08.720 And maybe that story isn't true or isn't correct, but that's us.

00:12:14.940 And if it isn't correct, well, then we're an evolutionary abortion, because that's who we are.

00:12:23.640 And I would say, well, before you throw it aside, maybe you should try it.

00:12:28.680 You don't have a better option anyways.

00:12:31.540 And there are, you know, what does it mean to try it?

00:12:37.740 But mostly, I would say it means two things.

00:12:42.000 It means to practice love.

00:12:46.620 And that means assume that things are valuable and act according to that assumption.

00:12:54.220 And it requires truth, which is don't say what you know to be untrue.

00:13:00.300 And, you know, when I tried to unpack the first sentence of Genesis,

00:13:06.340 in the context of the broader biblical narrative,

00:13:10.680 what appears to be happening is that

00:13:13.380 there's a proposition that God is guided by love and uses truth to create.

00:13:21.880 It's something like that.

00:13:23.000 And maybe love is something like the wish that all being would flourish.

00:13:35.000 There isn't a better story than that.

00:13:40.000 What effect do you hope your new book to have?

00:13:49.200 I know that might seem like a lazy question, but I'm going to keep it broad.

00:13:52.900 I'd just be interested to hear your thoughts.

00:13:55.800 What would be a successful effect for this book, looking back 12 months from now, 24 months from now?

00:14:05.380 Well, I would like, it would be lovely if it had the same effect on people as the last book appeared to have.

00:14:11.740 You know, I mean, it's comforting to me to read through my YouTube comments, oddly enough,

00:14:18.840 because that isn't generally a place people would go for comfort.

00:14:22.760 You know, untold numbers of people have said to me in person, but publicly in that way,

00:14:32.660 that they've put their lives together, at least in some ways.

00:14:36.540 And you talked about Viktor Frankl.

00:14:48.180 You know, when I wrote Maps of Meaning, I said, well, I was interested in malevolence.

00:14:55.460 I was deeply affected by the accounts I'd read of what happened in the Second World War and in Germany

00:15:01.800 and what happened in the Soviet Union and in China, these horror shows that characterized the 20th century.

00:15:13.700 Constrained malevolence.

00:15:16.400 And so, if you study malevolence, you start to understand what the opposite of that is.

00:15:21.960 The opposite of malevolence is something like the hero's journey.

00:15:25.280 You know, and it's easy to be cynical about that, but, well, it's not that easy,

00:15:33.040 because if you're cynical about that, then you undermine your own life.

00:15:37.500 And everyone knows this.

00:15:38.840 This is the other thing that's so interesting.

00:15:41.000 Everyone knows this.

00:15:42.820 You never teach someone you love to lie.

00:15:45.940 You're always appalled.

00:15:46.920 If you have a son or daughter, you're always appalled if they don't tell the truth.

00:15:51.720 You know in the deepest part of your heart

00:15:59.600 that if you don't tell the truth,

00:16:05.960 the world falls apart.

00:16:11.080 And that's actually true.

00:16:13.540 So, the new book is Beyond Order, 12 More Rules for Life.

00:16:17.980 We'll flip that in the screen.

00:16:19.760 And not to be offensive, thank you for sending it to me,

00:16:22.860 but I personally like this one more than the first one.

00:16:25.160 Are you hearing that a lot?

00:16:27.200 I'm hearing that more than I expected, and I'm happy about that.

00:16:31.040 I mean, you hope that each thing you do is somewhat better

00:16:34.200 than the last thing you did, if you're fortunate.

00:16:36.480 And it wasn't obvious to me that I couldn't tell

00:16:39.780 if it was the same quality, worse, better.

00:16:42.640 I tried to make it better.

00:16:44.780 And I would say that's the general response so far.

00:16:48.740 Yay! 0.99

00:16:49.900 It's like Michael Jackson putting out Thriller

00:16:51.940 and then putting out Thriller 2,

00:16:53.700 and Thriller 2 is somehow better.

00:16:55.560 So, yay for you.

00:16:56.740 I love it.

00:16:57.700 Okay, what we're going to do today

00:16:59.620 is 12 questions with Jordan Peterson

00:17:02.160 to celebrate 12 more rules.

00:17:05.620 Are you ready?

00:17:06.620 Because everybody always celebrates more rules.

00:17:09.620 Pardon?

00:17:10.220 Everybody always celebrates more rules.

00:17:12.580 I love rules, because then I get to break those rules,

00:17:15.100 just like you talked about with the Harry Potter characters,

00:17:17.200 which we're going to get into.

00:17:18.980 In my last book, in Beyond Order,

00:17:20.900 I talked a fair bit about Harry Potter.

00:17:22.700 And a lot of the people who'd like to take potshots at me

00:17:25.140 took potshots at that, because, you know,

00:17:27.020 I don't know, they think Harry Potter's

00:17:28.500 beneath their notice or something.

00:17:29.900 But, you know, I kind of noticed that J.K. Rowling

00:17:32.280 made several billion dollars

00:17:33.640 building the biggest entertainment enterprise

00:17:35.560 of the decade,

00:17:36.540 and rose herself from, you know, single mother status, 0.99

00:17:40.100 unemployed single mother status,

00:17:41.720 to richer than the queen,

00:17:42.920 and then occupied every movie screen

00:17:44.980 for, like, 10 years.

00:17:46.400 Maybe something's going on there.

00:17:48.260 Yeah.

00:17:48.720 While these complex characters,

00:17:50.280 they play out mythology, you know.

00:17:52.540 And so, if religion disappears

00:17:55.080 in the culture in general,

00:17:56.800 it pops up in our stories instantly.

00:17:58.780 And that's exactly what's happened

00:17:59.940 in the Marvel universe.

00:18:01.120 And what happened with Harry?

00:18:02.060 I mean, you even have Thor, for God's sake.

00:18:04.000 Thor's a god.

00:18:04.980 Yeah, yeah.

00:18:05.540 It's not even subtle.

00:18:07.700 Yeah, yeah.

00:18:08.200 You can't get rid of these stories.

00:18:09.880 They come back.

00:18:11.300 No matter what you do,

00:18:12.320 these stories come back.

00:18:13.840 So, what was J.K. Rowling doing

00:18:15.600 with Harry Potter?

00:18:17.460 Well, it's the battle between good and evil.

00:18:19.400 I mean, Voldemort is Satan

00:18:20.500 for all intents and purposes.

00:18:22.420 Yeah.

00:18:23.360 So, it's the battle between good and evil.

00:18:26.320 I mean, the second volume in particular

00:18:27.860 is St. George and the Dragon.

00:18:29.240 It's Bilbo and the Dragon.

00:18:30.840 Harry fights a giant snake

00:18:32.120 that's under the castle.

00:18:33.160 It's the same story as The Lord of the Rings.

00:18:36.000 And that's the same story as,

00:18:38.260 what's the original story?

00:18:39.600 Hobbit?

00:18:41.140 Yeah, but far before that.

00:18:43.320 Well, the oldest story we have of that sort

00:18:45.700 is a Mesopotamian creation myth

00:18:47.280 where a god named Marduk

00:18:48.460 attacks a giant dragon named Tiamat.

00:18:51.780 And that's one of the oldest religious tracts

00:18:53.940 that we have.

00:18:54.620 It's symbolic of humanity, right?

00:18:56.920 The human being goes out there

00:18:58.100 and encounters the terrible unknown,

00:19:00.160 often in reptilian form.

00:19:02.380 And that terrible unknown,

00:19:04.240 well, that's why that terrible unknown

00:19:06.100 is often evil itself.

00:19:07.400 And so, in Christianity,

00:19:08.360 you get this weird intermingling,

00:19:10.220 for example, of the snake

00:19:11.360 in the Garden of Eden with Satan.

00:19:13.120 It's not obvious why there should be a connection.

00:19:15.860 Snake, Satan.

00:19:17.320 It's like, well, what's the worst snake?

00:19:20.700 It's not a snake.

00:19:22.260 It's snakes as such.

00:19:23.780 Well, it's not snakes as such.

00:19:25.120 It's predators as such.

00:19:27.720 Reptilian predators.

00:19:28.900 Wait a minute.

00:19:29.860 It's not reptilian predators as such.

00:19:31.680 It's enemies.

00:19:33.020 It's human enemies. 0.91

00:19:34.720 It's the enemy in our own soul.

00:19:36.840 That's the progression of the thought.

00:19:39.140 It's unbelievably sophisticated.

00:19:40.760 How does it go from...

00:19:41.620 It's insanely sophisticated.

00:19:42.780 How does it go from enemies

00:19:44.180 to the enemies in our own soul?

00:19:46.540 Well, who's your worst enemy if it's not you?

00:19:51.060 Who's your biggest obstacle if it's not you?

00:19:55.100 And...

00:19:55.500 I mean, who do you contend with

00:19:56.700 more than anyone else if it's not you?

00:19:58.740 And to the Harry Potter thing,

00:20:00.180 Harry Potter has a piece of Voldemort in him.

00:20:03.800 Yes.

00:20:04.060 Well, that's the original sin doctrine recreated.

00:20:07.860 So it's also the case

00:20:09.200 that he can't understand evil without it.

00:20:11.180 It's also part of what makes him sophisticated, right?

00:20:13.580 Because he's been touched by it.

00:20:15.340 Yeah.

00:20:16.860 Going online without ExpressVPN

00:20:18.760 is like not paying attention

00:20:20.180 to the safety demonstration on a flight.

00:20:22.360 Most of the time, you'll probably be fine.

00:20:24.360 But what if one day

00:20:25.580 that weird yellow mask drops down from overhead

00:20:27.820 and you have no idea what to do?

00:20:30.120 In our hyper-connected world,

00:20:31.600 your digital privacy isn't just a luxury.

00:20:33.940 It's a fundamental right.

00:20:35.240 Every time you connect to an unsecured network

00:20:37.200 in a cafe, hotel, or airport,

00:20:39.500 you're essentially broadcasting

00:20:40.680 your personal information

00:20:41.780 to anyone with a technical know-how

00:20:43.660 to intercept it.

00:20:44.560 And let's be clear,

00:20:45.420 it doesn't take a genius hacker to do this.

00:20:47.760 With some off-the-shelf hardware,

00:20:49.340 even a tech-savvy teenager

00:20:50.740 could potentially access your passwords,

00:20:52.900 bank logins, and credit card details.

00:20:55.160 Now, you might think,

00:20:56.380 what's the big deal?

00:20:57.180 Who'd want my data anyway?

00:20:58.900 Well, on the dark web,

00:20:59.980 your personal information

00:21:01.100 could fetch up to $1,000.

00:21:03.440 That's right,

00:21:03.980 there's a whole underground economy

00:21:05.500 built on stolen identities.

00:21:07.500 Enter ExpressVPN.

00:21:09.240 It's like a digital fortress,

00:21:10.720 creating an encrypted tunnel

00:21:11.900 between your device and the internet.

00:21:13.940 Their encryption is so robust

00:21:15.520 that it would take a hacker

00:21:16.540 with a supercomputer

00:21:17.400 over a billion years to crack it.

00:21:19.580 But don't let its power fool you.

00:21:21.400 ExpressVPN is incredibly user-friendly.

00:21:23.720 With just one click,

00:21:24.720 you're protected across all your devices,

00:21:26.440 phones, laptops, tablets,

00:21:28.360 you name it.

00:21:28.960 That's why I use ExpressVPN

00:21:30.320 whenever I'm traveling

00:21:31.440 or working from a coffee shop.

00:21:33.080 It gives me peace of mind

00:21:34.140 knowing that my research,

00:21:35.460 communications,

00:21:36.240 and personal data

00:21:37.200 are shielded from prying eyes.

00:21:39.060 Secure your online data today

00:21:40.600 by visiting expressvpn.com slash jordan.

00:21:43.820 That's E-X-P-R-E-S-S-V-P-N dot com slash jordan,

00:21:47.700 and you can get an extra three months free.

00:21:50.220 expressvpn.com slash jordan.

00:21:52.060 Starting a business can be tough,

00:21:57.800 but thanks to Shopify,

00:21:58.940 running your online storefront

00:22:00.220 is easier than ever.

00:22:01.900 Shopify is the global commerce platform

00:22:03.920 that helps you sell

00:22:04.680 at every stage of your business.

00:22:06.180 From the launch your online shop stage

00:22:08.080 all the way to the

00:22:08.800 did we just hit a million orders stage,

00:22:11.140 Shopify is here to help you grow.

00:22:13.220 Our marketing team uses Shopify

00:22:14.620 every day to sell our merchandise,

00:22:16.440 and we love how easy it is

00:22:17.720 to add more items,

00:22:18.980 ship products,

00:22:19.580 and track conversions.

00:22:21.260 With Shopify,

00:22:22.020 customize your online store

00:22:23.160 to your style

00:22:24.100 with flexible templates

00:22:25.200 and powerful tools,

00:22:26.560 alongside an endless list

00:22:27.940 of integrations

00:22:28.660 and third-party apps

00:22:29.620 like on-demand printing,

00:22:31.060 accounting,

00:22:31.640 and chatbots.

00:22:32.760 Shopify helps you turn browsers

00:22:34.160 into buyers

00:22:34.940 with the internet's

00:22:35.660 best converting checkout,

00:22:37.060 up to 36% better

00:22:38.440 compared to other

00:22:39.180 leading e-commerce platforms.

00:22:41.100 No matter how big you want to grow,

00:22:42.760 Shopify gives you

00:22:43.500 everything you need

00:22:44.240 to take control

00:22:44.980 and take your business

00:22:45.980 to the next level.

00:22:47.540 Sign up for a $1 per month

00:22:48.940 trial period

00:22:49.560 at shopify.com

00:22:50.880 slash jbp,

00:22:52.140 all lowercase.

00:22:53.420 Go to shopify.com

00:22:54.720 slash jbp now

00:22:55.880 to grow your business

00:22:56.900 no matter what stage you're in.

00:22:58.800 That's shopify.com

00:23:00.140 slash jbp.

00:23:03.900 So is that what we got to do

00:23:05.280 is just copy the Bible?

00:23:07.000 Like...

00:23:07.560 We don't have a choice.

00:23:09.100 Wait, what do you mean by that?

00:23:10.560 It happens whether

00:23:11.460 we want it to or not.

00:23:13.560 I mean,

00:23:14.300 the Bible aggregated itself

00:23:15.900 over centuries, right?

00:23:17.440 I mean,

00:23:17.860 no human being

00:23:18.760 directly

00:23:19.720 oriented that.

00:23:21.840 It's not something

00:23:22.700 that could happen

00:23:23.300 over thousands

00:23:23.880 and thousands of years.

00:23:25.120 This is just

00:23:25.540 the greatest hits.

00:23:27.480 That's one way

00:23:28.280 of thinking about it, yes.

00:23:29.820 And each one of these hits

00:23:31.120 taps into something

00:23:32.440 innate to us.

00:23:34.340 Yes.

00:23:35.280 Otherwise,

00:23:35.720 we wouldn't remember it.

00:23:37.940 We wouldn't have...

00:23:38.940 We wouldn't have conserved it.

00:23:40.400 It wouldn't stick in our memory.

00:23:41.500 It wouldn't structure

00:23:42.120 the way we think.

00:23:43.140 Let's dive into the book

00:23:44.180 because actually,

00:23:44.900 so many of the things

00:23:45.520 that we're talking about now

00:23:46.320 are sort of part and parcel

00:23:47.960 to all of the chapters here.

00:23:49.340 So chapter one,

00:23:50.900 and what I really liked

00:23:51.900 about this also

00:23:52.500 is the way you organized it.

00:23:54.400 The new topics,

00:23:56.380 because one of the questions

00:23:57.260 we would get often

00:23:58.120 in the Q&A

00:23:59.000 that you would get

00:23:59.660 is, oh,

00:24:00.460 was there a 13th rule

00:24:02.520 that you couldn't get

00:24:03.240 in the book?

00:24:03.720 And you actually mentioned

00:24:04.620 this in the book

00:24:05.680 that you had,

00:24:06.720 you had what?

00:24:07.240 About 46 other...

00:24:08.720 Was it 46?

00:24:09.340 I had 42.

00:24:10.020 42.

00:24:10.620 You had 42...

00:24:11.240 Yeah, the same as

00:24:12.040 Douglas Adams'

00:24:12.740 answer to the universe,

00:24:14.040 life, the universe,

00:24:14.720 and everything,

00:24:15.420 42 rules,

00:24:16.560 which was actually

00:24:17.340 a coincidence,

00:24:18.460 but I thought it was comical

00:24:19.880 in the aftermath.

00:24:20.740 There's 42 rules,

00:24:21.820 so now I've written about 20...

00:24:23.080 I've written essays

00:24:23.620 on 24 of them.

00:24:25.280 How did...

00:24:25.800 When you got to 42,

00:24:26.880 how long did you give it

00:24:27.760 before you said,

00:24:28.400 okay, 42 is enough?

00:24:29.620 Because I know you.

00:24:30.620 You're pretty methodical.

00:24:32.380 I just did it in an afternoon,

00:24:34.120 the original list of rules.

00:24:35.440 I was playing on Quora.

00:24:36.600 I wrote about 40 answers

00:24:39.920 for Quora,

00:24:40.620 something like that,

00:24:41.360 and I really haven't partaken

00:24:42.760 in that forum

00:24:43.740 for a long time now.

00:24:46.740 I was investigating it,

00:24:48.780 and some kid had asked,

00:24:51.460 what do you need to know

00:24:52.780 in order to lead a good life,

00:24:54.060 or what's most important to know,

00:24:55.600 something like that,

00:24:56.320 and I thought,

00:24:56.820 well, I'll take a crack

00:24:58.480 at answering this,

00:24:59.220 and I made this list

00:25:00.180 of 42 rules,

00:25:01.140 and it got very popular

00:25:02.940 on Quora,

00:25:03.940 much more popular,

00:25:04.880 typical Pareto distribution,

00:25:07.180 like that one answer

00:25:08.260 got more views

00:25:09.260 than all of my other answers

00:25:10.820 put together,

00:25:11.740 and so I thought

00:25:12.880 that was kind of interesting.

00:25:14.120 You know,

00:25:14.320 I had touched something

00:25:15.560 for some reason,

00:25:17.180 and out of that,

00:25:19.380 when I was asked

00:25:20.100 by an agent

00:25:21.120 who contacted me,

00:25:22.220 Sally Harding,

00:25:25.000 of Cook Agency,

00:25:29.360 she asked me

00:25:30.220 if I was interested

00:25:31.000 in writing something

00:25:31.580 more popular,

00:25:32.200 and I knew

00:25:32.840 that those rules

00:25:33.700 had found an audience,

00:25:35.780 so that seemed to me

00:25:36.640 to be a place

00:25:37.200 to dive in,

00:25:38.200 so anyways,

00:25:40.140 I've only written

00:25:40.700 about 24 of them.

00:25:42.260 You know,

00:25:42.420 in the two books,

00:25:43.320 I have them both here,

00:25:44.400 you can see

00:25:44.940 how they're structured,

00:25:47.360 one's white

00:25:48.360 and the other's black,

00:25:49.260 they make a match set,

00:25:50.300 you can read each

00:25:50.960 of them independently,

00:25:52.540 and one concentrates,

00:25:53.820 the first one,

00:25:54.560 An Antidote to Chaos,

00:25:58.940 12 Rules for Life,

00:26:00.540 An Antidote to Chaos,

00:26:01.280 does concentrate

00:26:02.160 on the consequences

00:26:04.080 of excess uncertainty,

00:26:06.060 and the second book

00:26:07.440 concentrates more

00:26:08.440 on an excess of order.

00:26:11.580 Both of those

00:26:12.260 are fundamental

00:26:13.100 existential dangers

00:26:14.220 as far as I'm concerned,

00:26:15.360 and in this universe

00:26:17.140 of value,

00:26:18.160 in the world of value,

00:26:19.260 there are two major domains,

00:26:21.020 and one domain

00:26:21.800 is the domain of order,

00:26:22.960 and you can technically

00:26:25.120 define it.

00:26:25.980 The domain of order

00:26:26.840 is where you find yourself

00:26:28.620 when what you're doing

00:26:30.540 produces the results

00:26:32.340 you want,

00:26:34.000 and that's a really

00:26:35.420 tight formulation

00:26:36.520 because it gives you

00:26:39.280 a particular idea

00:26:40.260 of what a place

00:26:42.020 in time is.

00:26:43.740 The place in time

00:26:44.440 you occupy

00:26:45.000 is at any given moment

00:26:46.900 is the place in time

00:26:47.840 that's defined

00:26:48.420 by your current goal,

00:26:50.280 and you have a map

00:26:52.460 of value

00:26:53.040 that guides you

00:26:53.960 through the actions

00:26:55.060 that are necessary

00:26:55.760 in that domain,

00:26:56.560 and if the result

00:26:57.680 is what you want,

00:26:58.780 which brings motivation

00:27:00.040 and emotion

00:27:00.600 into the picture,

00:27:01.620 then,

00:27:02.780 while you get

00:27:03.320 what you need

00:27:03.940 or want,

00:27:04.700 but you also validate

00:27:05.860 your theory of existence,

00:27:07.700 because it's good enough

00:27:08.800 to produce the results

00:27:09.880 that you desire,

00:27:11.080 and given that you're fallible

00:27:12.640 and that you don't

00:27:13.260 know everything,

00:27:14.800 you have to use

00:27:15.660 proximal,

00:27:16.560 you have to use

00:27:17.900 proximal truths,

00:27:19.100 and so something

00:27:20.800 is,

00:27:21.300 it's pragmatic,

00:27:22.600 it's a form

00:27:23.380 of philosophical pragmatism,

00:27:26.440 you're,

00:27:27.000 if you make a bridge

00:27:28.320 and it stands up,

00:27:29.340 then you know

00:27:30.000 how to make a bridge,

00:27:31.460 why?

00:27:31.960 Because the bridge

00:27:33.260 stood up,

00:27:34.180 now maybe you overbuilt it,

00:27:35.620 you could have built

00:27:36.180 it more elegantly,

00:27:37.160 but it's sufficiently true

00:27:39.340 so that the bridge functions,

00:27:40.980 and we're like that,

00:27:42.100 we're like engineers,

00:27:43.100 we're cobbling together

00:27:44.060 solutions all the time,

00:27:45.080 and as long as

00:27:45.580 those solutions work,

00:27:46.660 we assume that we're right.

00:27:48.880 Well,

00:27:49.280 that's the domain of order,

00:27:51.200 the domain of chaos

00:27:52.160 emerges when you lay out

00:27:53.720 a plan into action,

00:27:56.160 and something other

00:27:57.300 than what you wanted

00:27:58.400 emerges,

00:27:59.300 and sometimes that

00:28:00.140 can be a catastrophe,

00:28:01.700 an absolute catastrophe,

00:28:03.300 and your brain,

00:28:06.640 our psychophysiological,

00:28:08.780 our psychophysiology

00:28:10.080 is actually adapted

00:28:11.100 to those two domains.

00:28:14.000 When something unexpected

00:28:15.520 happens,

00:28:16.100 all sorts of emotions

00:28:18.700 and motivations

00:28:19.440 break loose,

00:28:20.240 fight and flight among them,

00:28:21.720 anger among them,

00:28:22.660 it gets disinhibited

00:28:23.500 because when you don't know

00:28:24.680 what's happening,

00:28:25.920 you have to prepare

00:28:27.260 for everything.

00:28:28.460 So you get anxious,

00:28:29.640 and then you hyper-prepare,

00:28:31.440 which is extremely stressful,

00:28:33.400 and so the domain of chaos

00:28:34.480 is extremely stressful.

00:28:37.100 In small doses,

00:28:38.660 it's exhilarating,

00:28:40.300 and that's because,

00:28:41.880 well,

00:28:42.220 where you don't,

00:28:43.040 when you're aware

00:28:43.780 you don't know

00:28:44.560 what's happening,

00:28:45.320 you have the opportunity

00:28:46.580 to learn,

00:28:47.720 and to expand your map,

00:28:50.140 and so there's always

00:28:51.500 an interplay

00:28:52.120 between the domain of chaos

00:28:53.300 and the domain of order,

00:28:54.140 but they can each pathologize,

00:28:55.720 and the pathologies

00:28:57.000 of uncertainty

00:28:57.660 are more associated

00:28:58.580 with anxiety,

00:28:59.620 and nihilism,

00:29:00.340 and depression,

00:29:00.840 and whereas the pathologies

00:29:02.760 of order

00:29:03.220 are more totalitarian.

00:29:04.360 And then I would say

00:29:05.920 as well,

00:29:07.280 the liberals,

00:29:08.440 liberal types,

00:29:09.220 the more left-leaning types,

00:29:10.300 are quite sensitive

00:29:11.560 to pathologies of order.

00:29:15.180 They don't like them.

00:29:17.280 That's the patriarchy.

00:29:18.840 The patriarchy

00:29:19.840 is the pathology of order,

00:29:22.480 and it's symbolically masculine,

00:29:24.140 something I've been,

00:29:25.000 you know,

00:29:25.840 taken to task

00:29:27.380 for claiming,

00:29:28.160 but the patriarchy itself,

00:29:30.420 the idea of the patriarchy itself

00:29:31.840 is a symbol.

00:29:33.340 The patriarchy is a symbol.

00:29:35.360 That's why it has such power,

00:29:37.060 and it's a symbol

00:29:37.740 that refers to

00:29:38.560 the domain of order.

00:29:40.280 Now, the domain of order

00:29:41.340 is protective

00:29:42.040 as well as oppressive,

00:29:43.280 but when it degenerates,

00:29:44.560 it becomes oppressive,

00:29:46.000 and I would say

00:29:47.240 it degenerates

00:29:47.960 when it's based on power

00:29:49.240 rather than competence,

00:29:50.740 but it can be based

00:29:52.080 on competence.

00:29:54.340 You know,

00:29:54.640 the Marxist critics

00:29:56.300 and the politically correct types,

00:30:00.200 they insist

00:30:01.680 that every element

00:30:03.100 of the patriarchy

00:30:04.320 is only a consequence

00:30:06.640 of the imposition of order,

00:30:08.300 forceful imposition of order.

00:30:09.600 It's all power.

00:30:10.920 Well, no.

00:30:12.520 No, it's not.

00:30:13.360 When it degenerates,

00:30:14.500 that's true.

00:30:16.540 Because,

00:30:17.180 and you can tell that,

00:30:18.140 because the thing is,

00:30:19.180 the domain of order

00:30:20.040 will be upheld

00:30:20.900 by those who inhabit it

00:30:22.300 if it's functional.

00:30:24.260 If you have to use force,

00:30:26.220 that's already an indication

00:30:27.420 that it's become pathological

00:30:28.780 because people aren't

00:30:30.400 playing voluntarily.

00:30:32.460 So would you say

00:30:33.400 we're in a degenerative

00:30:36.100 cycle right now,

00:30:38.600 that the cycle

00:30:39.220 seems more degenerative

00:30:41.240 than, say,

00:30:42.380 a building cycle,

00:30:43.180 or you think

00:30:43.640 that that's just the play

00:30:45.720 that's always going on

00:30:46.960 and you have to figure out

00:30:48.380 your role in it?

00:30:49.880 Well, I think the play

00:30:50.940 is always going on.

00:30:52.140 There's like,

00:30:52.580 and I don't think,

00:30:53.520 like, the antidote

00:30:54.280 to chaos isn't order,

00:30:55.960 and the antidote to order

00:30:57.100 isn't chaos.

00:30:57.800 The antidote to both

00:30:59.060 is the balancing of them,

00:31:00.520 the active balancing of them.

00:31:02.420 And that's where you find meaning.

00:31:03.200 You used to do this a lot.

00:31:04.620 You would say,

00:31:05.340 the balance,

00:31:06.540 the struggle between

00:31:07.420 liberal and conservative.

00:31:08.500 So people see me

00:31:09.140 doing this all the time.

00:31:09.980 I always cry,

00:31:10.360 well, Jordan was talking about,

00:31:11.960 he was talking about this.

00:31:13.140 But,

00:31:13.520 so you think that's it.

00:31:14.280 Well, it's really important.

00:31:15.420 It's really important

00:31:16.100 to understand that,

00:31:17.800 that the,

00:31:18.780 that the antidote to chaos

00:31:20.560 in the final analysis

00:31:21.700 can't just be order,

00:31:22.940 because order itself

00:31:24.040 can degenerate.

00:31:25.640 And so,

00:31:26.880 I believe that the antidote

00:31:28.660 is active engagement

00:31:29.700 with the world,

00:31:30.740 honest,

00:31:31.220 active engagement

00:31:31.920 with the world,

00:31:32.860 truth.

00:31:33.540 And I think it's also

00:31:34.500 truth motivated by love,

00:31:36.100 which is a motif

00:31:37.500 that runs through

00:31:38.260 this second book

00:31:38.940 in particular.

00:31:39.700 And love

00:31:40.540 is the desire

00:31:42.240 for all things

00:31:43.480 to flourish.

00:31:44.760 You know,

00:31:45.140 in,

00:31:45.280 in,

00:31:45.760 in,

00:31:45.980 Christ says

00:31:47.160 that you should love

00:31:47.860 your enemies.

00:31:48.700 And that's an,

00:31:50.080 that,

00:31:51.340 what does that mean?

00:31:52.300 And,

00:31:52.700 and it's really worth

00:31:53.500 thinking about is

00:31:54.360 you shouldn't wish

00:31:55.660 your enemies harm

00:31:56.900 in a,

00:31:57.500 like,

00:31:58.440 and by,

00:31:59.220 by,

00:31:59.720 and I,

00:32:00.220 what I mean by that

00:32:01.120 is that it would be

00:32:01.840 better for everyone

00:32:02.940 if they would conduct

00:32:04.780 themselves so that

00:32:05.800 they would flourish.

00:32:08.540 You know,

00:32:09.140 and that doesn't mean

00:32:10.000 you shouldn't defend yourself.

00:32:11.200 It doesn't mean that,

00:32:11.820 that soldiers aren't necessary

00:32:13.740 or the police.

00:32:14.640 It doesn't mean any of that.

00:32:15.820 It's not a weak need statement.

00:32:17.160 It means that if you're,

00:32:18.360 if you have your,

00:32:19.620 if you have your,

00:32:20.540 if you have yourself

00:32:22.880 pointed in the right direction,

00:32:25.000 you don't wish

00:32:27.220 an excess of harm

00:32:29.120 on,

00:32:29.560 on the world.

00:32:30.640 You want it to flourish.

00:32:31.820 That's love.

00:32:32.580 So you aren't yourself

00:32:33.440 that way.

00:32:34.740 And I do believe

00:32:35.540 that that requires

00:32:36.300 a certain courage

00:32:37.120 because the world

00:32:38.580 is so flawed

00:32:39.440 and so painful.

00:32:40.300 There's so much suffering

00:32:41.420 in it.

00:32:41.740 It's very difficult

00:32:42.480 to fall in love with it.

00:32:44.180 You keep getting

00:32:44.980 bounced off.

00:32:45.900 You think this is so terrible

00:32:47.040 that maybe it shouldn't

00:32:48.020 even be,

00:32:49.360 but that takes you

00:32:50.100 down a very bad road.

00:32:51.680 So it's love first

00:32:53.000 and then truth serves that.

00:32:55.200 And I do think

00:32:56.120 that's the motif

00:32:56.940 that runs through

00:32:57.640 the Old and New Testaments,

00:32:59.280 the combination

00:32:59.960 of those two things.

00:33:01.760 Love is the,

00:33:02.560 the desire

00:33:03.760 that being flourish.

00:33:06.360 And,

00:33:06.980 and,

00:33:07.720 and I do believe

00:33:09.280 that truth serves that.

00:33:11.480 Well,

00:33:12.000 that's a,

00:33:12.400 no,

00:33:14.420 please finish your thought.

00:33:17.480 Well,

00:33:17.920 I also think

00:33:18.680 that people find

00:33:19.520 meaning in that.

00:33:21.360 And you can,

00:33:22.280 everyone can answer

00:33:23.140 this for themselves.

00:33:23.920 It's like,

00:33:24.640 you have to watch

00:33:25.700 and you have to see

00:33:26.400 where it is

00:33:27.060 that you find

00:33:27.740 the meaning

00:33:28.180 that sustains your life.

00:33:29.280 And I would say,

00:33:30.360 it's certainly not

00:33:31.020 been my experience

00:33:31.900 that people find that

00:33:32.900 in deceit

00:33:33.780 or hatred.

00:33:35.600 I mean,

00:33:35.980 they may be tempted

00:33:36.780 by that.

00:33:37.460 They may have

00:33:37.860 the reasons for it,

00:33:39.020 but everyone

00:33:42.040 is ashamed of that

00:33:43.340 and wishes

00:33:44.420 it could be otherwise,

00:33:46.040 even if they don't know

00:33:47.300 what to do about that.

00:33:49.960 As you pointed out,

00:33:51.040 I'm going to

00:33:51.500 hold up these books.

00:33:53.100 So this is the new book,

00:33:55.040 Beyond Order,

00:33:56.500 and it does concentrate

00:33:58.020 on pathologies

00:33:58.940 of structure

00:33:59.720 and the previous book,

00:34:01.340 which is

00:34:01.940 Twelve Rules for Life,

00:34:02.960 An Antidote to Chaos.

00:34:04.720 And the,

00:34:06.040 the underlying presupposition

00:34:07.980 there is that

00:34:08.740 in our phenomenological

00:34:10.380 landscape,

00:34:11.160 so that's the world

00:34:11.920 as we experience it,

00:34:13.120 complete with emotions

00:34:14.100 and motivations

00:34:14.820 and dreams,

00:34:15.760 and so the full range

00:34:17.480 of human experience,

00:34:19.340 including the subjective

00:34:20.520 and the objective,

00:34:21.660 let's say,

00:34:22.460 can broadly be broken

00:34:23.720 into two domains,

00:34:24.840 and one is the domain

00:34:25.820 of things that are

00:34:26.620 beyond our grasp

00:34:27.860 and reach,

00:34:28.580 and that's the unknown.

00:34:30.260 The unknown emerges,

00:34:31.860 when the unknown emerges,

00:34:33.100 you tend to experience anxiety.

00:34:35.420 And then there's

00:34:36.060 the known,

00:34:36.980 and I define the known

00:34:37.980 very specifically

00:34:38.940 and very carefully,

00:34:41.120 the known

00:34:41.780 is the place you are

00:34:43.140 when what you're doing

00:34:44.800 produces the results

00:34:46.640 you want.

00:34:48.220 And I say want

00:34:49.240 because that brings

00:34:50.060 motivation and emotion

00:34:51.180 into the game.

00:34:51.980 So you're motivated

00:34:53.440 to pursue something,

00:34:55.000 you pursue it,

00:34:56.040 and what you want happens.

00:34:57.940 Not only do you get

00:34:58.780 what you want,

00:34:59.420 but you get validation

00:35:01.020 for the structure

00:35:02.420 that governs

00:35:03.140 your perceptions

00:35:03.800 and your actions.

00:35:04.580 Now, if you,

00:35:05.920 you know,

00:35:06.360 imagine that you're,

00:35:07.300 you know,

00:35:08.280 you're lonely

00:35:08.820 and you approach

00:35:10.360 a young woman

00:35:11.380 in a social situation

00:35:13.860 attempting to make

00:35:15.860 some contact with her,

00:35:17.540 you want to alleviate

00:35:19.240 your loneliness,

00:35:20.620 and so you hope

00:35:21.300 you make a good impression,

00:35:22.780 and you tell a joke,

00:35:24.120 let's say,

00:35:24.600 in a relatively awkward manner,

00:35:25.900 and you get rebuffed,

00:35:26.960 then you feel,

00:35:29.600 you,

00:35:29.800 you,

00:35:30.240 you're no longer

00:35:31.580 where you control,

00:35:33.460 you're no longer

00:35:34.100 where you exercise control,

00:35:35.500 and that brings up

00:35:36.820 all sorts of specters

00:35:38.100 immediately.

00:35:39.260 It's like,

00:35:39.540 well,

00:35:39.640 why were you rebuffed?

00:35:41.500 Well,

00:35:41.820 maybe all women 0.99

00:35:42.620 are to be despised. 0.96

00:35:45.140 That's one theory.

00:35:46.600 Maybe there's something

00:35:47.440 deeply wrong with you.

00:35:48.980 Maybe you're having

00:35:49.700 an off day.

00:35:50.520 Maybe it wasn't

00:35:51.160 a very good joke.

00:35:52.540 And so,

00:35:53.380 when you don't get

00:35:54.320 what you want,

00:35:55.060 then a landscape

00:35:56.420 of question emerge,

00:35:58.040 questions emerge,

00:35:59.140 and those questions

00:36:00.060 can resonate

00:36:01.440 through different levels

00:36:02.420 of your identity,

00:36:03.380 from the trivial,

00:36:04.780 oh,

00:36:05.180 I told the joke wrong,

00:36:06.380 to the profound,

00:36:07.480 there's nothing desirable

00:36:08.700 about me,

00:36:09.320 and I'll be alone

00:36:09.960 for the rest of my life.

00:36:11.720 Now,

00:36:12.480 you asked about identity,

00:36:13.600 and I used the example

00:36:14.700 of a child's game,

00:36:15.660 but I could go through

00:36:16.720 an identity,

00:36:17.640 and so I do this

00:36:18.320 particularly in Maps of Meaning,

00:36:19.860 and so,

00:36:20.300 for example,

00:36:21.140 let's say I'm sitting typing.

00:36:23.740 Okay,

00:36:24.000 we could decompose

00:36:25.040 my identity.

00:36:26.160 So,

00:36:26.400 at the highest level

00:36:27.340 of resolution,

00:36:28.520 I'm moving my fingers,

00:36:30.360 and so that could be

00:36:32.160 my identity.

00:36:32.860 I'm the thing

00:36:33.460 that moves its fingers,

00:36:35.060 and then slightly,

00:36:36.900 at a slightly broader level

00:36:38.340 than that,

00:36:38.800 I'm typing words,

00:36:40.720 and at a broader level,

00:36:41.600 I'm typing phrases

00:36:42.640 and thinking them up,

00:36:43.600 and then sentences,

00:36:45.080 and then paragraphs,

00:36:46.960 and then chapters,

00:36:48.240 and then,

00:36:48.960 let's say,

00:36:49.920 full papers or books.

00:36:51.500 That's a productive unit,

00:36:52.960 so I'm the author

00:36:53.900 of a book

00:36:54.600 or the author

00:36:55.160 of a paper.

00:36:56.240 That's an identity.

00:36:57.340 But then that's nested

00:36:58.400 inside,

00:36:59.120 for me,

00:36:59.680 it would be nested

00:37:00.380 inside being

00:37:01.280 a clinical psychologist,

00:37:02.800 being a professor,

00:37:04.300 being a good citizen,

00:37:06.380 and then that's nested

00:37:07.540 inside something

00:37:08.640 that's even broader

00:37:09.440 than that,

00:37:09.940 and I would say

00:37:10.580 that that's nested

00:37:11.560 inside a cultural heroism,

00:37:15.160 and I don't mean

00:37:15.740 that specific to me,

00:37:16.820 I mean that for everyone.

00:37:18.340 That's the outermost level,

00:37:20.360 whether you're playing out

00:37:21.440 the role of hero

00:37:22.300 or adversary,

00:37:23.360 say,

00:37:24.200 that's the highest

00:37:25.780 possible level

00:37:26.840 of identity.

00:37:27.720 That's the level

00:37:28.320 at which fundamental morality

00:37:30.220 is adjudicated,

00:37:32.120 and there isn't really

00:37:32.920 anything beyond.

00:37:33.700 Outside that,

00:37:34.580 it's beyond us.

00:37:35.880 It's the transcendent itself,

00:37:37.620 and you're all of those

00:37:38.820 at any one time.

00:37:41.280 You're all of those

00:37:42.140 levels of identity,

00:37:43.600 but those are all practical,

00:37:45.060 right?

00:37:45.260 So those are the roles

00:37:46.200 that you're playing

00:37:46.800 in the world.

00:37:47.500 All of those

00:37:48.420 are a consequence

00:37:49.940 of who you are,

00:37:51.640 but in interplay,

00:37:52.980 like in this situation

00:37:54.200 with the child,

00:37:55.400 all of that's negotiated

00:37:56.700 with other people,

00:37:58.200 and so if you have

00:37:59.600 a functional identity,

00:38:00.800 you see,

00:38:01.080 if you have

00:38:01.340 a functional identity,

00:38:02.640 when you act it out

00:38:04.000 in the world,

00:38:05.500 then you get

00:38:06.460 what you want and need,

00:38:08.340 and if an identity

00:38:10.040 doesn't do that,

00:38:11.660 well,

00:38:11.880 then you should,

00:38:13.620 you either retool

00:38:14.500 your identity,

00:38:15.220 or you retool

00:38:17.100 the world.

00:38:19.340 Your conception

00:38:20.460 of the world?

00:38:22.220 Well,

00:38:23.140 if you're retooling

00:38:24.900 your conception

00:38:25.500 of the world,

00:38:26.020 then you're retooling

00:38:26.840 yourself.

00:38:27.600 No,

00:38:27.840 you can actually,

00:38:28.880 I mean,

00:38:29.200 what a revolutionary

00:38:30.000 does is try to bring

00:38:31.300 the world into alignment

00:38:32.800 with their theory.

00:38:33.240 So literally change

00:38:34.060 the world.

00:38:34.900 Yes,

00:38:35.300 literally.

00:38:35.900 Well,

00:38:36.080 and we all do that

00:38:36.860 to some degree

00:38:37.540 because we are

00:38:38.260 practical engineers,

00:38:39.600 you know?

00:38:39.820 I mean,

00:38:40.700 not only do we

00:38:42.040 perceive the world,

00:38:44.280 but we also

00:38:45.260 interact with it

00:38:46.620 so that it does

00:38:47.520 manifest itself

00:38:48.540 in accordance

00:38:49.060 with our desires.

00:38:50.240 There's limits,

00:38:51.440 obviously,

00:38:52.060 to how far

00:38:52.740 you can go

00:38:53.540 or how far

00:38:54.360 you should go

00:38:55.080 with that.

00:38:56.720 You know,

00:38:57.000 and what are

00:38:58.660 the limits?

00:38:59.320 Well,

00:38:59.540 there's practical limits.

00:39:00.860 Nature won't do

00:39:01.940 what you want it to

00:39:03.160 unless you're

00:39:04.060 very sophisticated

00:39:05.500 in your application

00:39:07.800 of your knowledge

00:39:08.740 and other people

00:39:09.520 will object.

00:39:11.860 So,

00:39:12.540 now,

00:39:13.420 you might say,

00:39:14.000 well,

00:39:14.120 you should forge forward

00:39:15.120 regardless of their objection

00:39:16.400 and,

00:39:17.380 you know,

00:39:17.720 there are circumstances

00:39:18.700 under which that's true

00:39:20.000 but,

00:39:21.660 generally speaking,

00:39:22.740 that's not a very good idea.

00:39:24.700 It certainly doesn't make you

00:39:25.800 popular as a child

00:39:26.840 and so that brings up

00:39:28.500 one other issue.

00:39:29.380 I would also say,

00:39:30.240 and this,

00:39:31.080 I developed this idea

00:39:32.080 quite a bit in

00:39:32.800 the new book,

00:39:35.140 you go from egocentrism

00:39:37.780 as a child,

00:39:38.560 you have to go through

00:39:39.160 this period

00:39:40.140 where you're socialized

00:39:41.480 as a child

00:39:43.280 and adolescent

00:39:44.020 and that really means

00:39:45.420 that you allow

00:39:46.800 your identity

00:39:47.540 to be molded

00:39:48.600 and shaped

00:39:49.100 by the group

00:39:49.860 and,

00:39:50.820 you know,

00:39:50.980 you think about

00:39:51.600 how important

00:39:52.340 peers,

00:39:53.440 friends and peers

00:39:54.380 are to children

00:39:55.160 and adolescents.

00:39:56.480 You know,

00:39:56.800 your mother will say

00:39:57.800 when you're a teenager,

00:39:59.360 well,

00:39:59.620 if Johnny jumped off

00:40:00.760 the bridge,

00:40:01.160 would you too?

00:40:02.820 And you say,

00:40:03.400 well,

00:40:03.580 no,

00:40:03.940 but the real answer

00:40:04.700 is,

00:40:05.060 well,

00:40:05.260 probably,

00:40:05.840 if all your friends

00:40:06.520 are there taunting you,

00:40:07.540 you would in fact

00:40:08.760 jump off the bridge

00:40:09.540 and not only that,

00:40:11.500 generally speaking,

00:40:12.780 you should

00:40:13.480 because it's your duty,

00:40:18.040 it's your developmental duty

00:40:19.360 as a child

00:40:20.460 and a teenager

00:40:21.240 to take your,

00:40:23.600 your isolated self

00:40:26.540 and turn it into

00:40:27.420 a functioning social unit.

00:40:30.800 Now,

00:40:31.700 you could say,

00:40:32.620 well,

00:40:32.820 do you,

00:40:33.420 Peterson wants everybody

00:40:34.520 to be a functional

00:40:35.480 social unit,

00:40:36.500 a robot,

00:40:37.320 you know,

00:40:37.500 a cog in the wheel?

00:40:39.320 And I would say,

00:40:40.480 well,

00:40:40.600 that isn't where

00:40:41.540 development stops.

00:40:43.680 It has to go through

00:40:44.800 that period

00:40:45.420 before you can emerge

00:40:46.600 as a genuine individual,

00:40:48.880 which means you have

00:40:49.600 to know the rules

00:40:50.220 of the game

00:40:50.680 before you can break them.

00:40:52.460 But,

00:40:53.580 not being able

00:40:54.640 to abide by the rules

00:40:55.860 is not anything like

00:40:57.740 being a genuine,

00:40:59.060 creative individual.

00:40:59.860 Those are not

00:41:00.580 the same thing.

00:41:01.300 And there's plenty

00:41:02.320 of attempt

00:41:03.300 to confuse

00:41:04.060 the two things

00:41:04.780 because it's much better

00:41:06.500 if you can't follow

00:41:07.480 the rules

00:41:08.060 to view yourself

00:41:09.860 as a avant-garde

00:41:12.240 revolutionary

00:41:12.840 than as a failure.

00:41:15.200 And it's not like

00:41:16.340 I don't know

00:41:17.040 that that social

00:41:18.700 molding crushes.

00:41:21.040 Obviously,

00:41:21.820 it crushes.

00:41:22.560 And everyone feels

00:41:23.340 that.

00:41:23.680 These are existential

00:41:24.580 problems.

00:41:25.640 Everyone deals

00:41:26.580 with the tyranny

00:41:27.700 of culture.

00:41:28.860 and the fact

00:41:30.220 that it does

00:41:31.800 want you

00:41:32.340 to be a certain way

00:41:33.420 and not other ways

00:41:34.640 and those ways

00:41:35.360 might not be

00:41:35.940 in keeping

00:41:36.380 with the deepest

00:41:38.300 elements of your nature.

00:41:40.040 Well,

00:41:40.240 tough luck for you

00:41:41.240 because you're also

00:41:42.780 the beneficiary

00:41:43.620 of culture.

00:41:44.920 And so you have

00:41:45.380 to offer it

00:41:45.960 your pound of flesh.

00:41:47.360 Now,

00:41:47.540 you shouldn't do that

00:41:48.460 at the expense

00:41:49.240 of your soul,

00:41:50.360 but you shouldn't

00:41:51.180 stay an immature

00:41:51.900 child either.

00:41:54.700 And so this notion

00:41:56.220 of identity

00:41:56.800 that we're being fed

00:41:57.860 is very,

00:41:58.800 very,

00:41:59.220 it's very thin.

00:42:01.320 What are we being fed?

00:42:02.340 Be very specific.

00:42:06.640 Well,

00:42:07.140 there is the idea,

00:42:08.000 for example,

00:42:08.440 that your identity

00:42:09.200 is whatever you say

00:42:10.180 it is

00:42:10.520 and that everyone

00:42:11.080 else has to go

00:42:11.800 along with that.

00:42:13.300 No,

00:42:14.280 that isn't how it works,

00:42:15.600 partly because

00:42:16.240 no one even knows

00:42:18.520 how to go along

00:42:19.600 with it.

00:42:20.800 Like,

00:42:21.180 let's say,

00:42:21.640 just for example,

00:42:22.460 that you're

00:42:22.920 gender non-binary.

00:42:26.020 Okay,

00:42:27.400 what am I supposed

00:42:28.800 to do

00:42:29.400 about that?

00:42:32.100 Man,

00:42:32.520 I don't know,

00:42:33.360 I hardly know

00:42:34.100 what to do

00:42:34.660 if the rules

00:42:35.260 are already there.

00:42:36.140 So let's say

00:42:36.720 I grow up,

00:42:37.960 I want to,

00:42:38.720 being a heterosexual male,

00:42:40.120 I want to find

00:42:41.680 a woman,

00:42:43.220 fall in love

00:42:43.860 with her,

00:42:45.520 raise a family,

00:42:47.240 have children,

00:42:48.080 have grandchildren.

00:42:49.300 That's a game.

00:42:50.140 I know the rules

00:42:50.840 to it.

00:42:51.380 Not well,

00:42:52.340 because everyone's

00:42:53.100 a failure at that.

00:42:54.280 You know,

00:42:54.480 it's very difficult,

00:42:55.460 but at least

00:42:56.120 you kind of know

00:42:56.780 what the goal is

00:42:58.300 and so does

00:42:58.740 the person you're with.

00:43:00.300 Well,

00:43:00.680 you leap out of that,

00:43:02.220 which is already

00:43:02.880 terribly difficult,

00:43:03.900 you leap out of that

00:43:04.660 into completely

00:43:05.420 unknown territory,

00:43:06.680 saying,

00:43:07.100 that I'm

00:43:10.880 presenting yourself

00:43:12.400 as something

00:43:13.420 other than those

00:43:14.360 categories,

00:43:14.980 leaves everyone

00:43:15.600 around you

00:43:16.220 and you

00:43:17.100 completely bereft

00:43:18.920 of direction.

00:43:20.980 In today's

00:43:21.960 chaotic world,

00:43:22.920 many of us

00:43:23.400 are searching

00:43:23.820 for a way

00:43:24.260 to aim higher

00:43:25.020 and find

00:43:25.580 spiritual peace.

00:43:26.920 But here's the thing,

00:43:28.200 prayer,

00:43:28.600 the most common

00:43:29.240 tool we have,

00:43:30.120 isn't just about

00:43:30.720 saying whatever

00:43:31.300 comes to mind.

00:43:32.340 It's a skill

00:43:33.000 that needs to be

00:43:33.820 developed.

00:43:34.680 That's where

00:43:35.220 hallow comes in.

00:43:36.380 As the number

00:43:36.880 one prayer

00:43:37.380 and meditation

00:43:37.940 app,

00:43:38.500 Hallow is

00:43:38.880 launching an

00:43:39.420 exceptional new

00:43:40.240 series called

00:43:40.980 How to Pray.

00:43:42.380 Imagine learning

00:43:43.140 how to use

00:43:43.600 scripture as a

00:43:44.380 launch pad for

00:43:45.060 profound conversations

00:43:46.260 with God,

00:43:47.340 how to properly

00:43:48.040 enter into

00:43:48.760 imaginative prayer,

00:43:50.120 and how to

00:43:50.800 incorporate prayers

00:43:51.740 reaching far back

00:43:52.820 in church history.

00:43:54.320 This isn't your

00:43:54.900 average guided

00:43:55.520 meditation.

00:43:56.500 It's a comprehensive

00:43:57.380 two-week journey

00:43:58.220 into the heart

00:43:59.000 of prayer,

00:43:59.900 led by some of

00:44:00.540 the most respected

00:44:01.380 spiritual leaders

00:44:02.260 of our time,

00:44:03.440 from guests including

00:44:04.380 Bishop Robert Barron,

00:44:05.800 Father Mike Schmitz,

00:44:06.660 and Jonathan

00:44:07.340 Rumi,

00:44:08.060 known for his

00:44:08.580 role as Jesus

00:44:09.320 in the hit series

00:44:10.100 The Chosen,

00:44:11.080 you'll discover

00:44:11.660 prayer techniques

00:44:12.440 that have stood

00:44:13.120 the test of time

00:44:14.000 while equipping

00:44:14.780 yourself with the

00:44:15.480 tools needed to

00:44:16.180 face life's

00:44:16.860 challenges with

00:44:17.600 renewed strength.

00:44:19.080 Ready to

00:44:19.440 revolutionize your

00:44:20.380 prayer life?

00:44:21.320 You can check out

00:44:21.900 the new series as

00:44:22.940 well as an extensive

00:44:23.720 catalog of guided

00:44:24.740 prayers when you

00:44:25.640 download the

00:44:26.320 Hallow app.

00:44:27.320 Just go to

00:44:27.960 hallow.com

00:44:28.820 slash Jordan

00:44:29.500 and download the

00:44:30.200 Hallow app today

00:44:30.940 for an exclusive

00:44:31.780 three-month trial.

00:44:32.740 That's

00:44:33.440 hallow.com

00:44:34.220 slash Jordan.

00:44:35.540 Elevate your

00:44:36.220 prayer life today.

00:44:39.920 Let me put it in

00:44:40.980 words that I get

00:44:42.260 from your material.

00:44:44.320 So what I heard

00:44:45.420 you just say,

00:44:46.180 tell me if I'm

00:44:46.600 wrong,

00:44:46.940 is part of the

00:44:48.080 negotiation that we

00:44:49.260 do from the time

00:44:49.980 we are little kids

00:44:50.940 and figuring out

00:44:51.800 that play,

00:44:52.420 we're up on the

00:44:52.920 bridge,

00:44:53.320 we jump maybe

00:44:53.920 because we want

00:44:54.760 to, you know,

00:44:55.420 fit in with our

00:44:55.900 peer group.

00:44:56.440 There is a

00:44:59.420 sense of order

00:45:00.440 to that.

00:45:01.000 Now you've been

00:45:01.540 very careful and

00:45:02.380 it would drive me

00:45:02.920 crazy if people

00:45:03.700 respond to this

00:45:04.360 interview as if

00:45:05.220 you have not

00:45:05.720 already illustrated

00:45:06.440 that it is the

00:45:07.260 balance between

00:45:08.000 two opposing

00:45:08.600 forces.

00:45:09.780 But so we

00:45:10.800 need enough

00:45:12.040 order so that

00:45:13.080 somebody can find

00:45:13.920 their way through

00:45:14.520 the world and

00:45:15.560 that many, I

00:45:16.620 think a big part

00:45:17.300 of the reason

00:45:17.740 that your work

00:45:18.820 has resonated so

00:45:19.800 profoundly with

00:45:20.440 people is they

00:45:21.560 are left in a

00:45:23.000 world where they

00:45:23.620 don't know how

00:45:24.320 to move forward

00:45:26.420 in a way that

00:45:28.020 serves them

00:45:29.020 spiritually,

00:45:30.240 practically as

00:45:31.280 well for sure.

00:45:32.400 And so, hey

00:45:33.160 everybody.

00:45:33.740 Both of those,

00:45:34.820 both of those

00:45:35.620 practically shades

00:45:37.040 into spiritually as

00:45:38.140 you move up into

00:45:39.420 the broader

00:45:39.960 reaches of

00:45:40.620 identity.

00:45:42.360 You know, and

00:45:42.680 look, this,

00:45:44.100 see, one of the

00:45:44.760 things, I really

00:45:45.400 laid this out in

00:45:46.100 Maps of Meaning,

00:45:47.220 it took me a long

00:45:48.440 time to understand

00:45:49.540 that belief

00:45:50.280 regulated emotion.

00:45:52.620 So what happens

00:45:53.340 is that if you

00:45:54.180 act out your

00:45:54.960 identity, if you

00:45:55.820 act out your

00:45:56.320 beliefs in the

00:45:56.880 world, and what

00:45:58.780 you want doesn't

00:46:00.360 happen, what

00:46:01.940 happens is that

00:46:02.680 your body defaults

00:46:03.860 into emergency

00:46:04.900 preparation for

00:46:05.840 action.

00:46:06.720 And the reason

00:46:07.340 for that is you've

00:46:08.660 wandered too far

00:46:09.560 away from the

00:46:10.140 campfire, and now

00:46:11.740 you're in the

00:46:12.260 forest, and maybe

00:46:13.420 you're naked. 0.88

00:46:14.880 And so what do

00:46:15.540 you do then?

00:46:16.260 And the answer is,

00:46:16.900 well, you don't

00:46:17.220 know what to do.

00:46:18.360 So what do you do

00:46:19.140 when you don't

00:46:19.580 know what to do?

00:46:20.620 And the answer is

00:46:21.320 you prepare to do

00:46:22.240 everything.

00:46:22.800 And the problem

00:46:24.380 with that is that

00:46:25.120 it's unbelievably

00:46:26.080 draining

00:46:26.940 psychophysiologically.

00:46:29.060 Like it hurts

00:46:30.040 you.

00:46:31.160 And there's an

00:46:32.140 immense physiological

00:46:33.260 literature detailing

00:46:34.460 the cost of

00:46:36.900 exactly that kind

00:46:38.260 of response.

00:46:40.120 And so people

00:46:40.680 need people and

00:46:41.560 animals.

00:46:42.260 People stay where

00:46:43.760 what they do has

00:46:45.380 the results they

00:46:46.220 want.

00:46:46.620 That's partly why

00:46:47.660 you want to be

00:46:48.200 around people who

00:46:49.200 share your cultural

00:46:50.120 presuppositions, is

00:46:51.980 because you know

00:46:52.720 that, for example,

00:46:53.800 even in small ways,

00:46:55.520 let's say you're a

00:46:56.280 country music

00:46:56.980 aficionado, and

00:46:58.780 you're hanging

00:46:59.160 around with your

00:47:00.020 cowboy-hatted

00:47:01.080 buddies, and you

00:47:02.200 throw on a tape, and

00:47:03.780 everyone says,

00:47:04.520 great tunes, man.

00:47:06.460 And you're happy

00:47:07.800 about that.

00:47:08.960 But, you know, you

00:47:10.420 throw on a piece by

00:47:11.260 Tchaikovsky, and

00:47:12.180 you're in a different

00:47:14.240 subculture, and who 0.98

00:47:15.460 the hell are you? 0.95

00:47:16.880 And the people in 1.00

00:47:18.220 your group will say,

00:47:19.620 man, who listens to

00:47:21.100 music like that?

00:47:22.500 And, like, that's a

00:47:23.300 trivial example in

00:47:24.540 some sense, but I

00:47:25.780 believe it's one that

00:47:26.580 everyone can resonate

00:47:27.440 to.

00:47:28.640 We like, it's very

00:47:30.540 hard on us not to be

00:47:32.040 where we know what,

00:47:33.860 we know that what we

00:47:35.600 want is going to

00:47:36.420 happen.

00:47:36.960 We hate that.

00:47:38.640 We hate that, and

00:47:39.620 no wonder.

00:47:41.300 So, and then, you

00:47:42.160 know, there are

00:47:42.580 varying degrees of

00:47:44.100 that, obviously.

00:47:45.300 You can really be

00:47:46.300 where you don't

00:47:47.000 know what's going

00:47:47.640 to happen, or you

00:47:48.380 can only be there

00:47:49.120 to some degree.

00:47:50.620 But, by and

00:47:51.920 large, by and

00:47:54.220 large, we're

00:47:55.180 conservative

00:47:56.060 creatures, even if

00:47:57.180 we're liberal in

00:47:57.960 temperament.

00:47:58.500 There's not, we

00:47:59.280 can't tolerate that

00:48:00.320 much uncertainty.

00:48:02.080 And you might ask,

00:48:03.500 well, why?

00:48:04.080 And the answer is,

00:48:04.800 well, because you

00:48:05.420 can be hurt, pain,

00:48:07.620 you can be damaged,

00:48:08.740 you can become

00:48:09.340 intolerably anxious,

00:48:10.400 and you can die. 0.88

00:48:12.300 So, it's no wonder 0.64

00:48:13.240 you're sensitive, or

00:48:14.020 very sensitive to

00:48:15.160 negative emotion.

00:48:17.120 And so, our

00:48:17.820 identities, functional

00:48:20.000 identity, regulates

00:48:21.220 your emotion.

00:48:22.460 But you do that in

00:48:23.320 concert with other

00:48:24.080 people.

00:48:24.480 Doing things for

00:48:25.280 other people is

00:48:27.020 actually more

00:48:27.700 rewarding than

00:48:28.480 virtually anything

00:48:29.420 else you can do.

00:48:31.140 You know, when you

00:48:32.200 hear, you should be

00:48:34.040 of service to other

00:48:35.200 people.

00:48:35.560 Well, if you

00:48:36.340 actually watch

00:48:37.220 yourself, you pay

00:48:40.420 attention to

00:48:40.960 yourself, and you

00:48:41.620 do something that

00:48:42.500 helps someone else,

00:48:43.360 and it genuinely

00:48:43.960 helps them, I

00:48:45.020 defy you to find

00:48:46.480 another experience

00:48:48.140 that is that

00:48:49.840 satisfying.

00:48:51.340 It's actually quite

00:48:52.540 stunning how

00:48:54.020 satisfying that is.

00:48:56.360 And so, that's a

00:48:57.040 very useful thing to

00:48:58.400 realize.

00:48:59.500 Why is helping

00:49:00.660 another person the

00:49:02.700 most satisfying thing

00:49:03.920 for probably most

00:49:04.640 people when they're

00:49:05.360 if they're, you

00:49:06.600 know, out of their

00:49:07.160 ego of, like, I

00:49:08.060 want to buy more

00:49:08.680 things to make me

00:49:09.460 happy in this

00:49:09.980 moment?

00:49:10.320 Why is that such a

00:49:12.500 satisfying thing for

00:49:13.660 human beings?

00:49:15.340 There's no better

00:49:16.300 strategy for, there's

00:49:18.140 no better life

00:49:18.800 strategy.

00:49:20.200 I mean, imagine, I

00:49:23.940 could give you a

00:49:24.680 quick sort of

00:49:25.640 technical example.

00:49:26.620 So, imagine I take

00:49:27.500 two people and I

00:49:28.240 say, okay, I'm

00:49:29.760 going to give you

00:49:31.220 $100, and you

00:49:33.200 have to give some

00:49:33.900 of it to the

00:49:34.600 person right beside

00:49:35.340 you.

00:49:36.580 And they can

00:49:37.460 either agree or

00:49:38.440 disagree with the

00:49:39.420 split, but if they

00:49:40.160 disagree, you don't

00:49:41.500 get anything.

00:49:43.800 Okay, so a

00:49:44.680 classical economist

00:49:45.480 would say that the

00:49:47.420 person should take

00:49:48.600 the $100, offer the

00:49:49.840 person next to them

00:49:50.640 a dollar, and the

00:49:52.720 person should accept

00:49:53.600 it, because why

00:49:54.640 not?

00:49:55.000 They get a dollar

00:49:55.540 instead of nothing.

00:49:57.180 And that's the

00:49:58.820 solution.

00:49:59.980 But what happens is

00:50:01.200 that if you don't

00:50:01.760 offer that other

00:50:02.460 person something

00:50:03.100 close to 50-50,

00:50:05.040 they're likely to

00:50:05.840 tell you to go to 1.00

00:50:06.600 hell. 1.00

00:50:07.060 Yes.

00:50:07.700 And then you get

00:50:08.700 nothing.

00:50:09.320 You get nothing too.

00:50:10.500 You think, well, why

00:50:11.120 would people do that?

00:50:12.520 Because they just

00:50:14.240 reject $50, and who

00:50:16.380 cares?

00:50:16.760 And the answer is,

00:50:17.900 well, we don't just

00:50:18.660 play one game with

00:50:19.740 other people.

00:50:20.200 We play a repeating

00:50:21.220 game.

00:50:22.540 And so imagine we did

00:50:24.100 this.

00:50:24.340 So imagine it's a

00:50:25.080 crowd, and they're all

00:50:26.180 watching you.

00:50:27.260 And I offer you $100,

00:50:29.220 and you have to share

00:50:29.860 it with the person

00:50:30.380 next to you.

00:50:30.840 And you say, would

00:50:31.760 you like to take $70?

00:50:36.360 And the person says,

00:50:37.860 well, I'm not sure

00:50:38.400 that's fair to you, but

00:50:39.340 if it's okay, yes.

00:50:40.820 But then everyone else

00:50:41.800 sees that.

00:50:43.300 And now they all have

00:50:44.400 an opportunity to pick

00:50:45.540 who they're going to

00:50:46.120 play with next.

00:50:48.420 Well, you're not going

00:50:49.140 to get picked last,

00:50:50.580 are you?

00:50:51.120 Remember what you

00:50:51.900 told me?

00:50:52.280 You didn't want to

00:50:52.800 get picked last,

00:50:53.740 right?

00:50:54.000 I did not.

00:50:54.320 Okay, so what you

00:50:55.520 did was you turned

00:50:56.260 yourself into an

00:50:57.100 athlete.

00:50:58.060 A machine.

00:50:59.100 Okay.

00:51:00.680 Okay, great.

00:51:01.860 So, but imagine we

00:51:02.640 expand that game.

00:51:03.820 Yes.

00:51:04.720 And we say, you

00:51:05.780 want to be the person

00:51:06.540 that everyone wants

00:51:07.740 to play with.

00:51:08.620 Yep.

00:51:09.560 Well, then all you

00:51:10.920 have in your whole

00:51:11.540 life is invitations

00:51:12.620 to play.

00:51:13.460 Well, how, how, and

00:51:14.780 how are you going to

00:51:15.340 be that person?

00:51:16.220 Be productive,

00:51:18.500 straightforward,

00:51:19.960 generous.

00:51:21.940 Make everyone else

00:51:22.820 better around you,

00:51:23.600 and they're going to

00:51:23.900 want to play with

00:51:24.340 you.

00:51:24.760 Absolutely.

00:51:25.340 So there you go,

00:51:26.060 and then you get

00:51:26.760 to play.

00:51:27.620 Yeah, exactly.

00:51:28.760 Well, how is that

00:51:29.660 not the best possible

00:51:30.960 deal?

00:51:31.860 It's clearly, see,

00:51:34.200 so, so the reason,

00:51:36.620 if, if the ethical

00:51:38.300 argument is put

00:51:39.140 properly, it is by

00:51:41.520 far the most

00:51:42.380 compelling argument.

00:51:43.620 It's like, if you

00:51:44.360 want to have

00:51:44.840 everything you could

00:51:46.300 possibly want, and

00:51:47.960 more, then be a

00:51:50.420 good person.

00:51:51.440 The better a person

00:51:52.540 you are, the more

00:51:53.160 likely that is to

00:51:54.020 happen.

00:51:54.480 That doesn't mean

00:51:55.360 you, that you're

00:51:56.440 completely protected

00:51:57.460 against getting cut

00:51:58.400 off at the knees,

00:51:59.260 but there's no

00:52:02.140 better strategy.

00:52:03.260 That's it.

00:52:04.260 And you can even

00:52:05.120 think about it

00:52:05.700 selfishly, and I

00:52:06.420 talk about this to

00:52:07.260 some degree and

00:52:07.800 beyond order.

00:52:10.600 Let's say you,

00:52:11.480 let's say that I,

00:52:12.640 you want to be

00:52:13.340 selfish.

00:52:14.920 You think that's the

00:52:16.000 best possible

00:52:16.680 strategy.

00:52:17.260 Why should I care

00:52:18.460 about others?

00:52:20.020 Okay, let's say you

00:52:21.200 should only act in

00:52:22.160 your own best

00:52:22.740 interest.

00:52:24.040 Well, then it's

00:52:24.660 like, well, what's

00:52:25.880 your best interest?

00:52:27.700 Well, what does

00:52:30.400 interest mean, and

00:52:31.460 what does you mean?

00:52:32.900 What's in your best

00:52:34.360 interest?

00:52:35.080 Your best interest.

00:52:36.680 Three mysteries.

00:52:38.020 What's your, what's

00:52:39.180 best, what's

00:52:39.780 interest?

00:52:40.880 Okay.

00:52:41.620 Well, there's you,

00:52:43.440 but you aren't just

00:52:44.940 you right now.

00:52:47.120 You're you, and

00:52:48.460 you tomorrow, and

00:52:49.200 you next week, and

00:52:50.020 you next month, and

00:52:50.840 you in five years, and

00:52:52.300 you in ten years, and

00:52:53.180 you when you're a

00:52:53.820 pensioner.

00:52:56.060 You're a community

00:52:57.120 of selves stretched

00:53:01.180 across time.

00:53:02.960 And so if you were

00:53:03.960 enlightened and

00:53:04.860 selfish, you would

00:53:05.860 act in a manner that

00:53:06.740 would benefit that

00:53:07.580 entire community

00:53:08.620 across time.

00:53:11.720 And I don't think

00:53:12.740 that's any different

00:53:13.560 than acting

00:53:14.320 on the best

00:53:15.920 possible part for

00:53:16.880 other people.

00:53:17.620 I think they're the

00:53:18.700 same problem.

00:53:20.520 So I think as soon

00:53:21.600 as human beings

00:53:23.340 discovered the

00:53:24.140 future, we, we

00:53:27.980 know, we were no

00:53:28.760 longer singular

00:53:29.460 individuals.

00:53:30.020 We're instantly each

00:53:31.120 a community, and

00:53:32.060 then the community

00:53:32.780 ethic prevails, and

00:53:33.960 the community ethic

00:53:34.720 is, I want to win

00:53:37.420 in a way that makes

00:53:38.120 you win.

00:53:40.860 That's the best

00:53:41.700 possible victory.

00:53:42.760 If anyone else

00:53:44.340 wins, then what's

00:53:45.300 the point?

00:53:47.100 Well, you think it's

00:53:48.100 a zero-sum game, it's

00:53:49.060 either you or me, or

00:53:50.080 maybe I want the

00:53:50.960 comparative status.

00:53:52.260 But I would say even

00:53:53.160 if you want the

00:53:53.880 comparative status, let's

00:53:55.020 say you just, you're

00:53:55.960 motivated by that.

00:53:59.940 What, what would

00:54:01.440 confer upon you even

00:54:02.980 hypothetically more

00:54:03.900 status than to be the

00:54:05.080 most popular person

00:54:06.320 while being chosen for

00:54:07.580 games?

00:54:08.000 I mean, you think

00:54:10.320 about, just think for

00:54:11.240 a second about, because

00:54:12.400 it struck me, that

00:54:13.720 biographical piece.

00:54:17.160 Alfred Adler, who is

00:54:18.060 the psychologist that I

00:54:19.080 talked to you about

00:54:19.640 earlier, he said, one

00:54:21.420 of his claims was that

00:54:22.500 many people have a,

00:54:24.400 like a, a stark

00:54:26.840 memory that sets the

00:54:29.340 course for their life.

00:54:30.460 That's true.

00:54:31.200 A few moments.

00:54:32.240 A few moments.

00:54:32.820 Yeah.

00:54:33.300 And you have exactly

00:54:34.740 that.

00:54:35.520 So Adlerian psychology

00:54:37.260 would be of great

00:54:38.000 interest to you, I

00:54:38.660 suspect.

00:54:39.820 But, but partly you

00:54:41.260 see what happened was

00:54:42.000 you had a true

00:54:42.660 revelation.

00:54:44.420 You thought I, if I'm

00:54:47.060 being picked last,

00:54:49.020 something is wrong.

00:54:50.740 And that's absolutely

00:54:51.900 right.

00:54:52.260 It's, it's unbelievably

00:54:53.600 right.

00:54:54.340 And you played it out

00:54:55.340 first in the athletic

00:54:56.240 domain, but you have

00:54:57.460 to start somewhere.

00:54:58.520 Right.

00:54:59.320 So that's a good place

00:55:00.560 to start.

00:55:01.700 Jocko was telling me

00:55:02.740 when we talked this

00:55:03.580 week, he's this tough

00:55:07.200 character, man, you

00:55:08.860 know, and he could

00:55:09.680 have, and I'm not

00:55:11.660 telling tales out of

00:55:12.640 school here.

00:55:14.080 He could have been a

00:55:14.980 criminal, no problem.

00:55:17.260 And he knows that

00:55:18.340 perfectly well.

00:55:19.520 And I'm not saying,

00:55:20.620 I'm not saying that as

00:55:23.900 a slur on his

00:55:24.700 character, partly

00:55:26.160 because I believe the

00:55:27.100 Nietzschean dictum that

00:55:28.040 a lot of morality is

00:55:29.000 just cowardice.

00:55:30.500 Whatever he might be,

00:55:31.560 he's not a coward.

00:55:32.740 Right.

00:55:33.700 And so, and just

00:55:35.560 because you obey the

00:55:36.480 laws doesn't mean

00:55:37.220 you're moral, just

00:55:38.600 might mean you're

00:55:39.220 afraid.

00:55:40.220 In any case, so the

00:55:42.100 question is, well,

00:55:42.820 what socialized this 0.61

00:55:45.120 brute?

00:55:47.840 Well, he was taught

00:55:48.940 in the Navy SEALs.

00:55:50.080 Yeah.

00:55:50.780 Take care of your

00:55:51.680 team.

00:55:53.060 That's your fundamental

00:55:54.420 purpose.

00:55:55.240 And he noted, and we

00:55:57.280 had a long discussion

00:55:58.160 about this, the

00:55:59.600 successful guys, man,

00:56:01.960 they've, you know,

00:56:03.240 they've got your

00:56:04.300 back.

00:56:05.320 Wow.

00:56:06.180 Right.

00:56:06.640 They, you know that

00:56:07.360 above all.

00:56:08.280 Yeah.

00:56:08.420 And if, and if, if, if

00:56:10.060 you aspire to a leadership

00:56:11.740 position among those 0.98

00:56:13.420 brutes, let's say, and 0.96

00:56:15.200 you aren't someone they

00:56:17.080 know to have your

00:56:17.880 back, they're not

00:56:20.280 following.

00:56:21.160 You're not going to

00:56:21.880 make it.

00:56:22.340 Yeah.

00:56:22.580 Uh-uh.

00:56:23.360 You're not going to

00:56:24.040 make it.

00:56:25.420 And so that's, this is

00:56:26.820 why the discussions of

00:56:27.960 power that are so

00:56:29.080 prevalent in, in modern

00:56:30.340 culture bother me so

00:56:31.340 much.

00:56:31.600 It's like, you think

00:56:32.880 male hierarchies are

00:56:34.060 predicated on power?

00:56:35.460 You really think that?

00:56:37.200 They are when they've

00:56:38.260 gone rotten.

00:56:40.760 But when they're not

00:56:41.940 rotten, that's not what

00:56:43.380 they're predicated on at

00:56:44.860 all.

00:56:45.520 The capacity to exercise

00:56:46.820 power, that's really

00:56:47.920 important.

00:56:48.400 You need that.

00:56:49.160 It has to be part of

00:56:50.040 you for you to be

00:56:50.860 admirable.

00:56:51.380 It's like, you could be 0.55

00:56:52.120 a badass son of a 1.00

00:56:53.100 bitch. 1.00

00:56:54.180 Yes, I see that. 1.00

00:56:55.680 And, and that way I'm

00:56:57.040 somewhat intimidated by

00:56:58.440 you.

00:56:59.040 And that's actually a

00:57:00.680 testament to your

00:57:01.580 moral virtue, that you

00:57:03.180 have enough force and

00:57:04.400 power to be

00:57:05.460 intimidating.

00:57:06.660 But then if you can

00:57:07.580 encapsulate that and

00:57:08.860 take that potential for

00:57:10.920 power and harness it to

00:57:13.000 this broader good, well,

00:57:15.940 that's unstoppable.

00:57:17.360 And a real functional

00:57:19.360 hierarchy, that's what it 0.72

00:57:22.400 is.

00:57:23.520 Your books strike a

00:57:24.880 chord, strike a chord

00:57:26.160 with me because I see

00:57:28.480 them as a way, especially

00:57:29.700 for a man, as a guide

00:57:31.520 to how to be successful,

00:57:33.980 as a way to make the

00:57:35.580 most of your life, to

00:57:36.520 develop your life, to

00:57:37.460 take responsibility and

00:57:38.700 all these kind of

00:57:39.280 things.

00:57:40.340 And one of the things

00:57:41.400 that I've seen with men

00:57:42.500 of my age, I'm in my

00:57:43.740 late 30s, I know I look

00:57:44.800 younger, you don't have

00:57:45.480 to say it, but in my

00:57:49.000 late 30s, I see a lot of

00:57:50.600 men struggling with what

00:57:52.420 does it mean to be

00:57:53.620 successful?

00:57:54.960 When you, when we look at

00:57:56.260 that word success, what

00:57:57.260 does that mean to you?

00:57:58.280 And how would you

00:57:59.460 inspire men of my age

00:58:01.240 and younger?

00:58:02.340 It's too late for you,

00:58:03.140 man.

00:58:03.240 Yeah, it's too late for

00:58:04.020 me, but to actually

00:58:05.540 become a success?

00:58:08.360 Well, first of all, I

00:58:09.700 think it's really worth

00:58:10.540 thinking about what

00:58:11.400 success means.

00:58:12.620 And I try to do that a

00:58:13.740 lot in both the books.

00:58:16.980 It's really fun to make

00:58:18.620 other people successful.

00:58:21.220 Like that's, this is one

00:58:23.000 of the reasons capitalism,

00:58:25.020 I would say gets a

00:58:26.020 really bad rap and an

00:58:28.560 unfair rap. 1.00

00:58:29.480 Like the people I've

00:58:30.560 known who have been

00:58:31.980 successful in the

00:58:33.600 capitalist enterprise, and

00:58:35.240 a lot of them are

00:58:35.980 entrepreneurs rather than

00:58:38.520 managers, let's say.

00:58:39.840 Just, it's just, that's

00:58:41.000 the population I've been

00:58:41.980 exposed to.

00:58:43.300 And this was the same

00:58:44.460 among the professoriate,

00:58:46.160 for that matter.

00:58:47.280 One of the great

00:58:48.380 pleasures the people

00:58:50.220 that I've seen who I

00:58:51.260 respect took was in

00:58:53.040 mentoring.

00:58:55.020 And so, don't

00:58:56.500 underestimate the

00:58:57.660 radical satisfaction

00:58:59.880 that's associated with

00:59:00.960 helping other people

00:59:01.720 develop.

00:59:02.260 One of the reasons that

00:59:03.040 good professors, well,

00:59:05.360 and good businessmen,

00:59:06.500 love to be in the

00:59:08.860 position they're in is

00:59:09.780 because they can

00:59:10.360 identify young people

00:59:11.560 who are promising and

00:59:12.840 open up doors of

00:59:14.580 opportunity to them.

00:59:15.940 It's really intrinsically

00:59:17.460 motivating.

00:59:18.900 And so, you know, when

00:59:20.140 you think of capitalism,

00:59:21.460 for example, or success as

00:59:22.940 only a competitive

00:59:24.240 enterprise,

00:59:24.800 that's a real mistake

00:59:25.880 because there's that

00:59:26.680 aspect of it that's

00:59:27.960 there everywhere, in

00:59:29.560 every enterprise I've

00:59:30.860 ever seen.

00:59:32.020 So, success, real

00:59:33.760 success means you're

00:59:34.960 successful in a way that

00:59:36.060 makes other people

00:59:36.800 around you successful.

00:59:38.500 You need both of

00:59:39.380 those.

00:59:40.380 And that's also really

00:59:41.620 good for your

00:59:42.200 conscience because then

00:59:43.220 you're not working at

00:59:44.080 the expense of anyone

00:59:45.000 else.

00:59:45.480 Quite the contrary,

00:59:46.700 right?

00:59:47.260 You're lifting the

00:59:49.340 tide that lifts all

00:59:50.360 boats.

00:59:51.000 Maybe you're

00:59:51.620 simultaneously

00:59:52.140 elevating your own

00:59:53.360 relative status, but

00:59:54.520 it's really, it's not

00:59:56.440 unreasonable to put

00:59:59.320 that in as a

01:00:00.000 constraining requirement.

01:00:02.160 It has to help other

01:00:03.360 people while it helps

01:00:04.260 you.

01:00:04.520 And I would say the

01:00:06.080 way we're wired, now

01:00:07.660 some people are more

01:00:08.440 selfish than others, but

01:00:09.920 I would still say human

01:00:11.280 beings are unbelievably

01:00:12.200 social and reciprocal.

01:00:13.860 That's built into us at

01:00:15.120 an incredibly deep

01:00:16.900 level.

01:00:17.240 And it can go wrong

01:00:18.340 and we can get

01:00:18.900 cynical and malevolent

01:00:20.040 and bitter and work 0.88

01:00:21.460 at counter purposes to

01:00:22.600 it, but to be of

01:00:25.540 service to your fellow

01:00:27.580 man, your family

01:00:29.580 members, your broader

01:00:30.980 community, there are

01:00:33.820 virtually no pleasures

01:00:35.400 that compete with that.

01:00:38.120 So, and so that's

01:00:40.420 partly why it is useful

01:00:41.700 to do a critique of mere

01:00:43.640 materialism and

01:00:44.960 materialistic

01:00:46.400 satisfactions are

01:00:47.800 pretty fleeting.

01:00:49.200 They're not

01:00:49.680 non-existent, but

01:00:52.120 they don't have the

01:00:54.000 deep and lasting

01:00:54.860 satisfaction of, well,

01:00:56.800 of successful mentoring,

01:00:57.980 for example, and the

01:00:59.020 relationships that build

01:01:00.220 out of that.

01:01:01.660 So, I think, I don't

01:01:04.140 think there is any

01:01:04.920 success at all without

01:01:06.100 moral success.

01:01:08.320 In fact, I think that

01:01:09.560 success without moral

01:01:10.680 success is actually a

01:01:12.180 form of torture.

01:01:14.040 You know, if you

01:01:15.020 don't, let's say you

01:01:16.460 don't feel you deserve

01:01:17.380 anything because you're,

01:01:20.040 you know that you're

01:01:20.840 being, you're not being

01:01:22.140 a good person, and

01:01:23.100 that's your own

01:01:23.600 judgment, and let's

01:01:25.200 assume that you're

01:01:25.920 accurate, you're not,

01:01:26.980 because some people will

01:01:27.760 judge themselves far too

01:01:28.820 harshly, but let's just

01:01:29.740 say, you know, you have

01:01:31.120 reasons to have your

01:01:32.600 conscience bothering

01:01:33.440 you, and you're not

01:01:35.060 successful, well, at

01:01:36.560 least, you don't feel

01:01:38.120 the continual injustice

01:01:39.900 of that.

01:01:40.940 You think, well, I'm a 1.00

01:01:41.820 son of a bitch, but I 1.00

01:01:42.700 don't have anything. 1.00

01:01:43.900 But then, let's say

01:01:44.780 you're successful.

01:01:46.840 Well, you know that's

01:01:48.400 all ill-gotten.

01:01:50.320 How can that do any,

01:01:51.520 and then maybe you have

01:01:52.220 to rationalize constantly

01:01:53.720 to live with it.

01:01:55.080 Everything you collect

01:01:56.200 around you is nothing

01:01:57.340 but a source of

01:01:59.060 torment and a

01:02:00.060 constant reminder that 0.97

01:02:01.220 you're criminal in

01:02:03.340 your fundamental 0.97

01:02:04.040 orientation, that

01:02:05.500 you've ruined

01:02:06.960 people on your

01:02:07.840 mad scramble to 0.74

01:02:09.060 the top.

01:02:09.980 Jesus, you don't

01:02:10.960 want that.

01:02:11.660 Like, you seriously

01:02:12.500 don't want that, and

01:02:13.340 no amount of

01:02:14.220 relative material

01:02:16.120 status is going to

01:02:17.560 even come close to

01:02:19.400 rectifying that.

01:02:21.240 You want your

01:02:22.160 conscience to be

01:02:23.060 clean, clear.

01:02:24.540 You want your

01:02:25.340 interpersonal

01:02:25.840 relationships to be

01:02:26.900 honest.

01:02:27.820 You want to be

01:02:28.460 reliable and

01:02:29.340 dependable, and if

01:02:30.040 you can add

01:02:30.480 exciting and

01:02:31.500 adventurous to that,

01:02:32.540 so much the

01:02:33.260 better.

01:02:33.520 success means, to

01:02:37.120 be successful means

01:02:38.240 to be good.

01:02:40.780 And you say that

01:02:42.200 successful means to

01:02:43.240 be good.

01:02:44.400 Isn't that a

01:02:45.300 problem whereby,

01:02:46.540 where in society,

01:02:47.660 particularly our

01:02:48.360 society, where people

01:02:49.780 judge success, they

01:02:50.860 judge it on the

01:02:51.600 requirement of

01:02:52.180 property, material

01:02:53.420 goods and

01:02:53.920 possessions.

01:02:55.560 And therefore,

01:02:56.460 there's that

01:02:57.300 imbalance where

01:02:58.020 someone can be

01:02:58.720 morally good and a

01:02:59.820 fantastic person,

01:03:00.860 but in a

01:03:01.680 materialistic society

01:03:02.900 seem to be a

01:03:03.660 failure because they

01:03:04.400 haven't acquired a

01:03:05.280 great deal.

01:03:07.080 Well, that

01:03:07.460 definitely is a

01:03:08.520 problem when you

01:03:09.200 have productive

01:03:09.900 people.

01:03:10.720 That's a

01:03:11.340 problem in how

01:03:12.220 it's a measurement

01:03:14.560 problem in some

01:03:15.440 sense.

01:03:16.900 You know,

01:03:18.180 economic success

01:03:19.200 is generally

01:03:20.400 associated with

01:03:21.780 intelligence and

01:03:22.600 conscientiousness.

01:03:23.480 So there is a

01:03:24.080 rough correlation

01:03:25.940 between ability,

01:03:27.040 let's say, even

01:03:27.580 moral ability, and

01:03:28.560 success.

01:03:29.680 Now, I'm not

01:03:30.540 making too much

01:03:31.860 of that, but I

01:03:32.360 do know, look, if

01:03:35.000 you're going to be a

01:03:35.560 successful businessman,

01:03:37.020 especially across

01:03:38.080 business person,

01:03:39.380 across multiple

01:03:40.360 dimensions, multiple

01:03:42.200 enterprises, you

01:03:43.420 bloody well better be

01:03:44.420 honest, because it's

01:03:46.260 going to catch up

01:03:47.020 with you, man.

01:03:48.360 And the probability

01:03:49.380 that you're going to

01:03:50.020 be a successful

01:03:50.740 crook multiple times

01:03:52.100 is very, very low.

01:03:53.320 You can do that, but

01:03:54.500 you have to move

01:03:55.380 constantly.

01:03:55.980 Right, so your

01:03:58.040 reputation doesn't

01:03:58.920 keep up with you.

01:03:59.660 So there is some

01:04:01.440 association between

01:04:02.580 success and moral

01:04:03.980 virtue, thank God.

01:04:05.800 But it's a rough

01:04:07.760 approximation, and

01:04:08.640 there's plenty of

01:04:09.280 exceptions.

01:04:10.220 It's very hard for

01:04:11.160 creative people to

01:04:12.220 monetize their

01:04:12.940 productivity, for

01:04:13.700 example.

01:04:14.400 So you have

01:04:14.940 unrewarded virtue, and

01:04:16.220 that's a flaw of the

01:04:17.340 monetary system.

01:04:18.540 It means we haven't

01:04:19.320 been able to, and

01:04:20.720 you might say the

01:04:21.520 same thing applies to

01:04:22.400 such things as our

01:04:24.340 inability to pay

01:04:25.380 homemakers.

01:04:27.600 Now, why don't we

01:04:29.040 pay homemakers? 0.88

01:04:30.160 Well, it's because

01:04:30.860 what they produce isn't

01:04:32.200 monetizable for 20

01:04:33.520 years.

01:04:34.840 And our economic

01:04:36.300 system isn't

01:04:36.960 sophisticated enough to

01:04:38.380 figure out how to pay

01:04:39.340 people for returns

01:04:40.860 that are that, you

01:04:43.660 know, pushed off into

01:04:44.580 the future.

01:04:45.400 That doesn't make it

01:04:46.300 right, but we don't

01:04:47.560 know how to fix it

01:04:48.540 technically, right?

01:04:50.580 I mean, if you're a

01:04:51.520 venture capitalist and

01:04:52.500 you want to invest in

01:04:53.260 something, you want a

01:04:54.180 tenfold return on your

01:04:55.680 investment within a

01:04:56.640 handful of years, you

01:04:58.800 can't afford to invest

01:04:59.780 over a 20-year

01:05:00.540 period, and so that

01:05:01.900 makes it really rough

01:05:02.720 on homemakers, because 0.90

01:05:03.840 we're not sophisticated

01:05:05.400 enough to monetize it.

01:05:07.320 So it's a measurement

01:05:09.180 problem, but unless you

01:05:10.080 can figure out a better

01:05:10.800 way of doing it, you're

01:05:13.220 stuck with what we've

01:05:13.980 got.

01:05:14.580 I've got to ask you,

01:05:15.460 how many more rules are

01:05:18.540 there overall?

01:05:19.280 Because it's starting to

01:05:20.360 add up.

01:05:22.200 Well, originally, there

01:05:24.720 was a list of 42.

01:05:26.140 I published that on

01:05:27.440 Quora.

01:05:28.280 I've heard that.

01:05:29.540 Yes, and so in

01:05:31.040 principle, there's 18

01:05:32.100 more, but of course,

01:05:33.060 you know, there's an

01:05:33.720 infinite number of

01:05:34.540 necessary rules.

01:05:36.140 I don't think I'll

01:05:37.200 publish any more rule

01:05:38.240 books, however.

01:05:40.520 Yeah, I'm just letting

01:05:41.400 you know, as someone who's

01:05:42.960 trying to abide by the

01:05:44.100 rules, we're doing our

01:05:45.520 best out here, and we're

01:05:47.620 glad that there's more,

01:05:48.580 but it's also, it's a lot,

01:05:49.900 it's a lot to do, you

01:05:51.000 know, it's a lot.

01:05:52.560 Yeah, yeah, well, and you

01:05:55.360 can only beat the same

01:05:56.380 horse so many times.

01:05:58.340 Yeah, well.

01:05:58.800 I don't think that's

01:05:59.500 actually a saying, but now

01:06:00.880 I've invented it.

01:06:02.640 Well, I've seen, so I grew

01:06:03.880 up in some areas, they had

01:06:04.740 a little bit of mild animal

01:06:05.860 cruelty by us growing up,

01:06:07.100 nothing real heavy, but,

01:06:08.280 you know, probably, I'm

01:06:10.800 glad some of it wasn't

01:06:11.620 documented at the time,

01:06:12.780 actually.

The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast - June 02, 2022

258. Beyond Order： 12 More Rules for Life

Episode Stats

Summary

Transcript