In this episode, Dr. Warren Farrell joins me to discuss the tragic mass shooting that took place in Texas, and how masculinity and family structure affect the young men who decide to end their own lives, while taking as many others as they can in the process. Dr. Farrell is a nationwide speaker and the author of many books on masculinity, like The Myth of Male Power and Why Men Earn More. He s been featured multiple times in Forbes, the New York Times, and the Wall Street Journal, and is the only man ever elected to the Board of the National Organization for Women in New York City, and currently as chair of the Coalition to Create a White House Council on Boys and Men. He is working with the White House to create such a council. He teaches couples communication courses around the country and speaks internationally on the global boy crisis, its causes and solutions. And today, unfortunately, we re going to be discussing a series of recent tragedies, let s talk about a topic that s all too present and present in the wake of recent catastrophes: mass shootings in the United States. And we re all too busy preoccupying ourselves with that pleasant topic and preoccupation to make some headway in a conceptual and practical sense. But I ve got some ideas about what is motivating this topic, so let s dive into it, as well as what I ve written about it in a book I ve recently written about the crisis of masculinity. The Crisis of Masculinity by Warren Farrell. and why it s so important to be a part of the crisis, and why we should all be talking about it. in the first place. Let s dive in! and let s make a headway, shall we all together. - Mikayla - JBP Thank you so much for listening to this episode of the JBP Podcast. JBP is produced by JBP. . -Mikayla Peterson JBP Media - The JBP Project . . . JBP PRODUCER - The Boy Crisis is a podcast about masculinity, masculinity, family structure, and fatherhood, and what it means, and its role in our society. Why men are the way they are better than women s work - and how it s better than they should be - And why men should have a say in the crisis. - and why they need to talk about it
00:00:00.000Oh, Maya. Maya. She loves being cool. 21 degrees is her favorite number. God, she's the coolest, especially at night. So, I raise the temp at 10 p.m. because she gets chilly when she sleeps. Maya loves using less energy. And I love Maya. We're basically besties.
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00:01:21.140Welcome to episode 261 of the JBP podcast. I'm Mikayla Peterson.
00:01:30.020Today's episode is related to the tragic mass shooting that just took place in Texas.
00:01:35.840Dr. Warren Farrell joined Dad to discuss these tragedies, which are almost invariably committed by young men,
00:01:42.660as well as the way masculinity and family structure affect the young men who decide to end their own lives
00:01:47.860while taking as many others as they can in the process.
00:01:51.700Dr. Farrell is a nationwide speaker and the author of many books on masculinity,
00:01:56.420like The Myth of Male Power and Why Men Earn More.
00:02:00.040Enjoy this episode, and remember to hit subscribe if you like it.
00:02:17.860Hello, everyone. I'm pleased today, although I suppose in a somewhat grief-stricken way,
00:02:26.460to be talking once again to Dr. Warren Farrell, who I've spoken with on my podcast twice before in the past,
00:02:34.220once almost exactly a year ago in end of May of 2021.
00:02:38.980Dr. Farrell has been chosen by the Financial Times of London as one of the world's top 100 thought leaders
00:02:45.840and by the Center for World Spirituality as one of the world's spiritual leaders.
00:02:51.540His books have been published in more than 50 countries and in 19 languages.
00:02:55.720His most recent book, The Boy Crisis, co-authored with John Gray, was a finalist for the Indie Book Publishing Award.
00:03:04.860His other books include the New York Times bestseller, Why Men Are the Way They Are,
00:03:10.400plus the international bestseller, The Myth of Male Power.
00:03:15.240A book on couples communication, Women Can't Hear What Men Don't Say,
00:03:19.900was a selection of the Book of the Month Club.
00:03:22.440And Why Men Earn More was selected by U.S. News and World Report in 2006
00:03:28.580as one of the top four books on career.
00:03:31.780A very practical book, by the way, for men and women alike,
00:03:35.120contemplating how they might maximize their earning power over the course of their career,
00:03:41.560although that comes at other costs, obviously.
00:03:44.240Dr. Farrell has taught at the university level in five disciplines
00:03:47.380and appeared on more than a thousand TV shows,
00:03:50.160being interviewed repeatedly by Oprah and Barbara Walters,
00:03:53.400as well as by Peter Jennings, Charlie Rose and Larry King.
00:03:56.540He's been featured multiple times in Forbes,
00:03:59.280the New York Times and the Wall Street Journal.
00:04:01.440He's also the only man ever elected and three times
00:04:06.840to the board of the National Organization for Women in New York City
00:04:10.200and currently as chair of the Coalition to Create a White House Council on Boys and Men.
00:04:17.140He is working with the White House to create such a council.
00:04:20.340He teaches couples communication courses around the country
00:04:23.880and speaks internationally on the global boy crisis,
00:29:31.660So I wrote up a 52 page manifesto that was overlapping in its effectiveness.
00:29:37.240I thought it was even better than the two other people at 8chan who had become celebrated mass shooters.
00:29:41.920And and he said, I was ready to I was making the plans to carry it out.
00:29:47.960And in the process, I stumbled across the this the boy crisis book and what and what he said to me was very powerful.
00:29:58.040He said, it wasn't the data that got to me.
00:30:01.440It was being seen that you saw it was like you were a spy in my life telling me what I was feeling, the hurt that I had, the lack of structure, the lack of purpose, the loss of self, the feeling that I didn't have that boundary enforcement.
00:30:19.600Therefore, I didn't have that discipline.
00:30:21.560I didn't have anything that anybody that would tell me that's too much, that's too little.
00:30:27.560That's, you know, you're doing that wrong.
00:30:30.180And so and you could do better and you could do better.
00:30:32.660And you were explaining all that and just being seen for my vulnerabilities made me not have the energy that I had to begin to continue carrying out my what I had outlined in my manifesto.
00:30:48.440And so we ended it by saying, you know, thank you for saving not just my life, but the live lives of countless others, because I was really working this.
00:30:55.860So there would have been countless others.
00:30:58.180So I would have been seen as as be doing something that he felt was positive, that is helping the fascist ideology to be more broad spread.
00:31:10.280And so, you know, what I really my my heart is saying to people that I hear is that when we see a mass shooter, we see somebody with in this type of modality, we have we see that they're angry and we tend to have anger at their anger, as opposed to having empathy at their vulnerability.
00:31:35.920And what I thought, what what what this fellow was telling me was, you had empathy at my phone about my vulnerability.
00:31:45.300And when I saw that you saw my vulnerability, I lost my anger or my anger diminished enough to not make me want to follow up and follow through so systematically on my 52 page manifesto.
00:32:00.280And I did end up going to a couple of psychologists.
00:32:02.660I did a few sessions with him as well.
00:32:04.960I have talked to wrote to you about it, you gave me some guidance, guidance as to what to do with him.
00:32:11.060And so and and almost the exact same pattern happened with also in Texas.
00:32:18.060He was doing poorly in school, he dropped out of school, he had a speech impediment.
00:33:17.440Every time you connect to an unsecured network in a cafe, hotel, or airport, you're essentially broadcasting your personal information to anyone with a technical know-how to intercept it.
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00:33:30.120With some off-the-shelf hardware, even a tech-savvy teenager could potentially access your passwords, bank logins, and credit card details.
00:33:37.520Now, you might think, what's the big deal?
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00:35:43.600Well, that shows you the degree of fantasizing, right?
00:35:49.800Because what that means in some sense is that to put myself in his position, which is, of course, an uncomfortable thing to do, is he's constructed this girl in his imagination.
00:35:59.640And she would be, you know, maybe she looked at him one day and that would be enough.
00:36:06.260And now he's imagining that if he can only elevate himself to notorious status, that he would become an object of admiration.
00:36:19.120And God only knows how many hundreds of hours he might have spent fantasizing about that, fantasizing about the relationship he'd have with the girl and how much she would admire him and how everyone would know his name.
00:36:30.440And you don't get to the point where you do something like shoot up the school without, I would say, literally hundreds of hours of fantastic dreaming about the event, about the day, about mostly about what's going to happen afterwards and how your name is going to be on everyone's lips.
00:36:48.980It's so striking, eh, that that young man who reached out to you was deterred by what was essentially an accurate diagnosis of his situation and that that was sufficient.
00:37:01.660You know, when I'm out on my tours talking to audiences, many of whom are young men who are suffering the consequences of the sorts of things that we've been discussing,
00:37:11.840the thing that's been so terrible to me to see is to the degree to which so many of them are suffering so intensely for lack of a single encouraging word.
00:37:26.440You know, and it's so sad that they have to get that from me on YouTube or in a lecture that they haven't had anyone in their life.
00:37:33.200And we're in this situation now where, you know, frequently any manifestation of masculine ambition in even its juvenile forms.
00:37:42.880So the desire to engage in rambunctious play, let's say, is instantly associated not only with pathology that needs to be medicated, let's say, in the case of ADHD,
00:37:53.160which I do think is a disorder of repressed play.
00:37:57.160And Yach Panksep did a lot of work showing that that might be the case.
00:38:00.640But also that, you know, we associate that male ambition with, well, the force that's literally the patriarchal oppressive force that's literally destroying the world.
00:38:10.820It's like, well, how the hell do you expect young men to react to that?
00:38:14.280And the answer might be something like, well, there's too bloody many people on the planet anywhere.
00:38:18.500And if we stopped running around doing things, things would be a lot better.
00:38:22.180It's like, well, that really leaves them nowhere to go, doesn't it?
00:38:25.880So except, well, except to some very dark places in some situations.
00:38:30.560I was doing some, somebody was filming me talking about these issues the other day.
00:38:36.020And we were in the middle of a, we were, we were in a little island in the middle of a creek.
00:38:40.880And a young man who looked like he was about 16, 15, was passing by.
00:38:47.340And I said, and he showed some curiosity about the filming.
00:38:51.360And I said, I asked, I signaled him over here.
00:38:54.420I said, could you join us for a moment?
00:38:55.880I said, you know, in high school, are you in high school?
00:40:40.040I when I was talking to friends to all, I read part of his book on difference.
00:40:43.720And there was this section that he cited from a female author who she said she threw up her hands in dismay because she couldn't stop her young boy from playing with guns.
00:40:54.020She took everything that was even remotely resembling a gun out of the house, and then she caught him one day, you know, shooting the toothbrush at the cat.
00:41:04.380And instead of noticing that he had this male propensity to aim and shoot that was deeply rooted in her son, she was appalled to the core by his intractable masculinity and believed that her, what would you say,
00:41:20.640the ideologically addled sense of what constituted masculine behavior was so morally admirable that it was perfectly fine to her to be disgusted by the fact that no matter how hard she oppressed her son, he was still a boy.
00:41:34.480And all of that was couched in this moral terms.
00:41:37.020And I thought, you witch, that's that's absolutely unforgivable to see that as such an intrinsic part of your boy's character.
00:41:46.000And then to throw your hands up in moral dismay about exactly this patriarchal oppression and and the toxic masculinity and all of that.
00:41:57.720It's and then the boy you talk to, too.
00:42:07.340So I don't know what I don't know what you make of this, but imagine that you have a woman who's never had a good relationship with a man in her life.
00:42:14.500And maybe this is a consequence of disrupted familial structure, too.
00:43:05.680Indistinguishable from oppression and compulsion.
00:43:08.300And so then, well, what are you going to do?
00:43:09.800Well, when your son manifests that, you're going to crush it because you think it's bad because you can't discriminate.
00:43:15.960And that seems to me to be, well, another one of the consequences, let's say, of the multigenerational and cumulative consequences of fatherlessness.
00:43:27.000Even with this young man that I was just talking to you about, he was he said in school, you know, he learned they learn.
00:43:33.940And in California, it is the law, by the way, something called affirmative consent.
00:43:38.640And in half the states of the United States, that's in the legislative process at the moment.
00:43:43.540And affirmative consent means if you're in college, let's say mostly in college.
00:43:47.220And if you if you ask a girl or woman on a date and she says yes, and you reach out and touch her hand and hold her hand before she says without asking her, may I hold your hand?
00:43:59.600You have violated affirmative consent and you can be considered sued by her as being a sexual harasser.
00:44:16.680So I've been thinking about the violation of the principle of non-contradiction in our society, which I think is a hallmark of a looming insanity.
00:44:24.320So here's what we're here's what college kids are asked to swallow now, as far as I can tell every single manifestation of sexual interest or sexual orientation of any conceivable type is to not only be tolerated, but to be celebrated and celebrated in some sense under compulsion and by force of law.
00:44:46.560No discrimination whatsoever on the basis of sexual behavior or sexual preference.
00:44:58.220Abnormal, let's say, in the technical sense that you can put up any barriers against its expression whatsoever, conceptually or otherwise.
00:45:06.240And simultaneously, every single act of sexual interest between a young man and a woman is so dangerous and so pathological that you need something approximating contractual consent to engage in the simplest of simplest acts of initial physical intimacy.
00:45:25.580So how the hell can both of those things be true at the same time?
00:45:28.340Yeah. And this the feedback I'm getting from kids, young people this age is on the one hand, I'm being told this, you know, don't don't take an initiative unless you have, you know, ask for permission and and get and get a yes.
00:45:47.460And then other times, girls are laughing at me for doing that.
00:45:52.000And in real life, I don't see the problem with that nearly as much as the guys that are that are that are behaving that way.
00:46:01.060They're they're thought of as wimps and or they don't take the initiatives at all because they're not they're not secure in the possibility that they will be rejected.
00:46:09.960So they're invisible to the girls that they're interested in.
00:46:13.320Right. Well, the girls can't distinguish between that deep inadequacy that emerges as a consequence of not being attended to enough.
00:46:24.440And that would include not engaging enough in rough and tumble play and all the things that make you like a sophisticated dancer.
00:46:31.220Let's say the girls cannot distinguish between that and the enforced awkwardness that comes with imposing an arbitrary imposition on the initial stages of physical intimacy.
00:46:41.240How could they distinguish, especially when they're like 13 or 14?
00:46:45.660And so we're definitely putting we're putting boys and girls in a completely impossible position.
00:46:50.860And we're doing something really also awful, which is where we're saying to boys that you if you move too quickly, you're a harasser.
00:47:02.420If you don't move quickly enough, you're a wimp or you'll never be seen.
00:47:05.680But we're not saying to girls that what what to do, how to assert themselves.
00:47:12.900We're not saying to girls is it is not just an option to share the risks of rejection.
00:47:19.580It is an expectation on you to share the risks of rejection, not just the risks of rejection with the 20 percent of boys that are the superstars and really outstanding.
00:47:31.540But with any boy you have an interest in that you're expect yourself to reach out.
00:47:42.260Anyone who takes risks in life will be rejected.
00:47:45.140But our job is to prepare you not to prepare you as girls to take risks because there's there's no entrepreneur who's successful without taking risks.
00:47:55.740There's no. And so your job is to take risks.
00:48:00.160Now, what about if a boy reaches out to you and said and you don't really want and it's moving too quickly?
00:49:38.680And that is certainly the lot of many men because there are, I would say, what, 5% of men, maybe 10% of men are in the category of so undesirably, undesirable socially that they have virtually no chance whatsoever in the mating market.
00:49:54.800There's a great documentary about that, by the way, documentary called Crumb that was done about probably 25 years ago that focuses on three brothers, one who became very famous, a very famous artist, all three extremely talented men, but all three of them toxically unpopular in high school to a degree almost unimaginable by anyone who was actually in a, you know, an acceptant peer group and who had at least some chance on the dating market.
00:50:22.200One of the brothers committed suicide soon after the movie was finished documentary and the other was put in prison as a sexual offender.
00:50:30.620So it's a very dark movie, but documentary, it's, it's about the best documentary I've ever seen on anything.
00:50:37.160But if you're interested in the psychopathological fantasies of sexual offenders, that's definitely the documentary for you because they're extraordinarily well documented in a way that.
00:50:50.160Well, that anyone with any sense would shy away from it's very dark stuff the the successful brother Robert Crumb, who is a very successful underground comic artist in the 1960s late 60s in San Francisco really started the whole underground comic movement.
00:51:09.160He became quite famous as a consequence of his artistic work and then became quite popular with women and it was a it's he tells the story it was an absolute shock to him because he went from he wasn't no one he was way less than no one.
00:51:25.180No one would have been a move up the ladder by a large margin, you know, he was in the detestable category, which is that's discussed right that's damn low on the hierarchy.
00:51:36.000And then when he became successful that all switched on him and pretty much overnight and so part of the documentary which is done so unbelievably brilliantly is an exploration of that dynamic I've never seen anything like it so I would highly recommend that's called Crumb great documentary I've shown it like I show it like 20 years in a row in my personality class.
00:51:56.000To illustrate the Freudian dynamic of Oedipal and smothering mothering essentially, and all the toxic consequences of that so anyways, yeah, back to back to, to no.
00:52:12.880Yeah, well, no, and yes, those are very difficult things to negotiate.
00:52:15.960I don't think there's anything more difficult to negotiate between a man and a woman than no and yes or between any two people that are in an intimate relationship or beginning one it's like what don't you understand well there's an infinite number of things I don't understand and what makes you so clear so sure you're so damn clear about your communication and so we have this perfect opportunity for teaching our daughters that you can say.
00:52:46.220No, and say, no, and say I'll take responsibility for anything I am interested from this point on as opposed to you keeping on trying, you know, we're doing tongue kissing and the average girl knows that, you know, if if there's no no somewhere, they'll be having intercourse in about five, six, 10 minutes.
00:53:04.700And for many girls or women that's too quick, so there so she pulls out the tongue, but then the pulling out of the tongue does that mean, you know, respect her?
00:53:15.540the tongue is being pulled out and then when do you put the tongue back in when do you restart
00:53:19.920the process again well it's also quite difficult if she's confused about it which she's likely to
00:53:25.820be because it's not like that's not a maelstrom of conflicting motivations and emotions should i
00:53:32.160continue how much do i like this boy am i going to be a slut is this something i'm going to enjoy
00:53:36.680what are my what what are my girlfriends going to think is this the guy for me is this something
00:53:41.160casual is casual sex okay um am i going to get pregnant can i can i take revenge on my absent
00:53:48.360father by falling in love with this loser etc etc a hundredfold and all if if that wasn't complex we
00:53:56.860wouldn't have any movies or novels it's unbelievably complex yes i just came back from mexico and
00:54:04.080almost every woman that was reading a book was reading some type of romance novel and
00:54:10.340one of them was a very strong feminist that i got into a conversation with and i sort of
00:54:14.940challenged her on that and she goes i know but i still love it it was really yeah but but but that's
00:54:24.980also not funny in my you know in some deep sense so so i read this book called uh billion wicked
00:54:31.900thoughts that the google engineers had put together by analyzing patterns of pornography use among men and
00:54:39.500women and it's really quite a brilliant book and uh because they're engineers it's it's really apolitical
00:54:45.600they just looked at the data they are not political they just said what it said and they found that
00:54:50.840men and women both used pornography uh with men it was all pictures and with women it was all written
00:54:56.800it was all literary and they identified the five categories of porn star in these romance
00:55:04.680in these literary romance pornography representations pirate vampire surgeon billionaire i don't i can
00:55:14.500never remember the fifth but they're all it's the same pattern they identified it perfectly it's beauty
00:55:19.060and the beast high status dangerous male tamed by attractive female and enticed into a reciprocal
00:55:29.680relationship yes but with difficulty right and so and then the the the the sexual component of it is
00:55:36.940mutual exploration yes and no tension conflict and the resolution of that but the guy but what's so
00:55:45.640interesting about it and it's the same pattern in 50 shades of gray it's exactly the same thing
00:55:49.940is that the guy isn't a pushover he's actually someone very forward in every way but capable of of being
00:56:02.900restricted capable of responding to the imposition of boundaries and then also capable of establishing
00:56:09.680relationship but the the fact of his willfulness in some sense is core to the sexual attractiveness
00:56:18.480well that's no different than the manifestation of male ambition on the status hierarchy it's
00:56:23.320exactly the same thing and why we have to lie about this is it's sickening to me and it's unbelievably
00:56:28.560destructive both for men and women i mean it's not like the girls are benefiting from any of this
00:56:33.280they're having catastrophic relationships in college you know in these you get these colleges now where
00:56:38.820it's like 60 or 65 girls and you think well that's a hell of a good thing for the guys
00:56:46.280because they have this plethora of women and it's not because first of all it's still 10 of the guys
00:56:52.540and maybe they have carte blanche on the sexual front but all that does is treat teach them to be
00:56:58.040narcissistic psychopaths because they can have a different one night stand every day of the week
00:57:02.720and that's a hell of a training ground for establishing a permanent relationship and then
00:57:07.040the other guys well they're in the same position that guys generally are which is they're chasing after
00:57:12.880scarce resources and the girls they're completely frustrated because the high status guys have
00:57:19.580zero interest in pursuing a long-term relationship and so that's a lovely situation i i heard some some
00:57:25.760recent not so much data but some stories from people in universities where the girl to boy ratio is
00:57:33.680climbing above 70 and they say the girls stop applying at about that point well it isn't only the
00:57:39.600application to schools and the getting in schools which is of course creating a whole possibility and
00:57:44.760in some cases actuality of affirmative action in favor of the boys now but the dropout rate among the
00:57:51.700boys in college is much greater and so in the next few years it's predicted that the ratio of female to male
00:57:58.400graduates will be two to one two female to one male and that creates this whole you know the the thing
00:58:06.380that i was saying before about you know the women are not women who graduate from college generally
00:58:11.260speaking want a man who's at least a college graduate um and so if if she's only half as likely to have
00:58:17.660a college graduate around her and a lot of males are dropouts the average woman especially when a woman
00:58:23.160starts looking for um the possibility of having a child and wanting a good father uh to be involved she
00:58:29.360doesn't usually look in uh among the dropouts um and she and 66 percent of the people between 25 and 31
00:58:36.860who um lives live back at home are male and she's not likely to go to um to back to go to bed with a guy
00:58:46.300who lives in his his parents basement um and she's not likely to search unemployment lines in high school
00:58:53.200dropouts 20 some odd percent of high school dropouts are unemployed for most of their 20s
00:58:59.660and so this leaves a terrible market for for girls and this is one of the reasons i say we're all in
00:59:06.520the same family boat and right right definitely when only one sex wins both sexes lose and unfortunately
00:59:13.660yes it's really sad that we even have to say that because it's so bloody obvious it's like whatever you do
00:59:19.220to boys you do to girls yes instantly and if you're not wise enough to see that well then you
00:59:24.980should clue in and if you do see it you proceed nonetheless it's like yeah well we know what
00:59:29.740you're up to nothing but trouble and and that is the huge um challenge with where feminism has been
00:59:37.060going recently you know at least when i was on the board of now in new york city at least a portion
00:59:42.920of feminism was saying um i am woman i am strong as a la helen ready and now it's mostly i am woman
00:59:50.240i've been wronged and so we have this hashtag me too and i know a lot of women who have been able to
00:59:57.360feel able to speak up as a result of the hashtag me too but having hashtag me too as a monologue rather
01:00:05.100than having hashtag me too as a dialogue is really a crime because it makes women feel that there are you
01:00:10.880that they must be right there's no response there's no male experience uh that of of him being
01:00:17.540rejected by a woman or him uh have being in a divorce situation and the woman bad mouthing
01:00:22.500uh him to the uh the child or uh there's no understanding that men who are going through
01:00:27.380divorce are eight times as likely as their female counterparts to commit suicide um you know there's
01:00:32.820there's just no understanding of that male experience and there's also no there's i've i've talked about
01:00:38.800this several times and become very unpopular as a consequence but in today's chaotic world many of
01:00:45.260us are searching for a way to aim higher and find spiritual peace but here's the thing prayer the most
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01:03:12.960percent off plus a 10 senior or military discount one discount per household when i studied anti-social
01:03:18.920behavior and particularly at mcgill um i studied female and male anti-social behavior and male anti-social
01:03:27.160behavior tends to be much more physically violent and so most of the people who are imprisoned are male
01:03:32.320mostly because we imprison violent offenders which is kind of interesting we don't necessarily
01:03:37.820imprison white collar criminals even if they defraud like 60 000 people but you know a mugger well
01:03:45.060we're going to lock them up and yeah i can understand that although not entirely because defrauding
01:03:51.56060 000 people out of their pension isn't exactly nothing either but in any case it's almost all men in
01:03:57.420prison and it's almost all violent offenders and so then you say well what's the female equivalent of
01:04:03.300anti-social personality and that's a tough question because it's much more subtle but a lot of it is
01:04:10.520reputation destruction and and exclusion mean girl syndrome and everyone understands that you can't
01:04:18.020play with us for example that's a nice expression of female anti-social behavior and that reputation
01:04:23.780destruction also scales really nicely on social media and so one of the things i think is happening
01:04:29.620to our whole culture is that we're suffering from a radical influx of female type anti-social behavior
01:04:35.920that's cancel culture that's reputation destruction and savaging and so but we can't have a conversation
01:04:41.860about that because all the pathologies on the male side it's like no all the pathology isn't on the male
01:04:48.060side plain and simple there's social pathologies that have a feminine orientation that would be the
01:04:53.700infantilization of everything and then there's toxic femininity which is this tendency to derogate
01:05:00.280into savage reputations and to escape scot-free in the aftermath of that and the use of manipulation
01:05:06.540and innuendo and all of that very very difficult to cope with very difficult to put boundaries around
01:05:13.140too so especially on social media so we and we tend to have very little empathy for the way these
01:05:20.740behaviors have evolved over over the years you know women had to sort of have talk about men reputation
01:05:28.520wise because um before birth control and when mores were extremely uh strict if a male wanted to be
01:05:35.680sexual with a woman and maybe promised her uh that she would be he would be marrying her and she said
01:05:41.160okay i could you know maybe we'll be married but then she talks to other women and she finds out from
01:05:45.920eight or ten other women well wait a minute he's been said that to me he said that to me he said that to
01:05:49.660Mary over there and then suddenly so that that will the thing that we call gossip was very much a
01:05:55.200protective mechanism on the part of women to protect themselves from being becoming pregnant with
01:06:00.600somebody that really uh was not at all interested in a long-term relationship and being a long-term
01:06:05.920father conversely with with um guys and women in terms of the no with what no means no what no means
01:06:12.800maybe what no means yes it was very helpful for women to be able to say no before birth control for
01:06:19.180obvious reasons but even short of birth control uh she discovers how does a man handle rejection
01:06:25.380does he um if if he if she says a a no and he stops right away and never tries again how will that
01:06:34.720translate into him being a good salesperson what successful man have you ever seen or a woman have
01:06:40.640you ever seen stopped at the no and didn't try again um and so she but on the other hand the way he
01:06:47.280tried the manner in which he tried the respect he showed as he tried uh the the way the way he
01:06:53.900manipulated his persistence in a positive or negative way those were things that gave her a great deal of
01:06:59.960information about what type of father what type of um um breadwinner he would be yeah well and if she
01:07:06.640puts obstacles in his way and frustrates him and he gets violent well then that's pretty good marker of
01:07:11.560his inability to deal with let's say the frustration of a toddler precisely and and that is
01:07:17.040um and those are all so i the the where i was going with that is that there's that we need to look at
01:07:25.200the behaviors we castigate and um and have under an understanding of where they came from and why
01:07:33.820and you were talking you're you're talking about oftentimes chimpanzees and different types of animals
01:07:38.540well in all among all animals from insects right out of to humans um for the most part uh the insects
01:07:46.180with a couple of exceptions the i'm sorry the the all the animals uh may seek males to reproduce with
01:07:53.380that are alpha males and um they they have no interest in um the the the non-alpha males and you
01:08:00.780see what the result of that is um among you know buck um um antelope uh the the the moment those males
01:08:08.640and females get together uh she chooses the male that has the largest rack and but that rack is such
01:08:16.200a burden on him that he has to get rid of it um immediately after the after intercourse uh otherwise
01:08:22.500because the rack in order to develop that rack uh exhausts 30 percent of the minerals and nutrition
01:08:28.640and calcium in in his system and if he doesn't immediately get rid of the rack um he's going to end up
01:08:34.160having to uh probably die um if winter sets in before he gets rid of that and he doesn't have a
01:08:39.580chance to replenish all his nutrients and what that amounts to is that here is the male that looked
01:08:46.580the strongest the alpha male um and it was served a purpose from the female's point of view of being able
01:08:53.580to to um to keep away um other people that wanted to have sex with her uh that that were not as strong
01:08:59.780as he but it was really a very good example of men's weakness being their facade of strength
01:09:06.400and whether it's saying i'm strong because i have my guns um or the the fellow that was that that wrote
01:09:14.800me uh also from texas you know saying i i got my guns together i was you know going to do this mass
01:09:21.680shooting um i'm going to be really um a strong man uh these are all these are all vulnerabilities and
01:09:29.000these are masks the gun is the mask of vulnerability it's the expression of anger uh yeah also stunningly
01:09:37.160unsophisticated you know one of the things you do with aggressive young boys so i don't remember if
01:09:44.020we talked about this before but um there's a large branch of literature focusing on violent
01:09:52.000two-year-olds so about five percent of two-year-olds uh males almost all males kick hit bite
01:10:00.660and steal and so if you put them with other two-year-olds that's what they do most of them
01:10:07.040are socialized out of that by the age of four the ones who aren't become unpopular with their peers and
01:10:13.280then they get outcast and then they're alienated and then they're bullies and juvenile delinquents and
01:10:18.200then they tend to be criminals and so it's basically career criminality that begins at the age of two
01:10:24.280now the question is what happens to the two-year-olds who are aggressive who are socialized and the
01:10:30.700freudian answer would be that that aggression is repressed but i don't buy that i think really what
01:10:36.280happens is that if those boys are fortunate they have a sophisticated father or father surrogate
01:10:43.480who helps them develop much more effective and sophisticated strategies for their competitive
01:10:51.220dominance and that can be unbelievably useful then you can have the man who is the beast in beauty and
01:10:58.220beast who's very capable and competent and competitive and willing to strive forward but also
01:11:06.040sophisticated in his strategy choice and so the two-year-old the aggressive two-year-olds who are
01:11:11.400socialized out of it they become they get popular by the age of four because they learn to play with
01:11:16.560others and it's not because they're repressing it's because they're integrating and that should be the
01:11:22.200model for us is it's the integration and so that's why i'm really never happy when i hear well we should
01:11:28.300all play non-competitive games it's like first of all it's not obvious that that's a game by the way
01:11:34.220and second says who right how about we regulate the expression of ambition and aggression in the
01:11:41.160course of competitive games like a good coach does on the football field like what the hell's wrong
01:11:46.300with that exactly why is that not the right model and like roughhousing does i mean right the father
01:11:52.920that roughhouses and um and does boundary enforcement uh requires the child to um to think of his brother's
01:12:00.240sister's needs and which is one of the reasons why roughhousing is statistically related to
01:12:05.080roughhousing combined with boundary enforcement is statistically related to empathy because you're
01:12:11.120requiring your child to understand that somebody else other than you has to be considered here you
01:12:17.600can't stick your um your elbow in your brother or sister's face uh in order to win at the roughhousing
01:12:23.280you have to know the difference between being assertive versus aggressive and it's only under the
01:12:27.600activation of that and things like roughhousing uh where those lessons can be learned not just in
01:12:32.820theory the mother's saying always be kind to people or always um that doesn't translate until you really
01:12:39.020put it into practice and you yeah well the roughhousing is a really good example of that because
01:12:44.940imagine what you're learning in when you're rough and tumble playing is first of all you learn
01:12:51.720how much can i be bent twisted and hurt before the game isn't fun and that's not theoretical it's like
01:12:59.180well you're going to get bumped around a bit you're going to get thrown into the air like there's actual
01:13:03.540physical threat occurring but it can occur at a level that actually heightens the thrill of the game
01:13:11.160and so of course most of the competitive games especially the physical ones run right on that edge so
01:13:17.340it's like it's not no threat it's optimal threat and that's a really tough thing and then and then
01:13:22.900you so you got to figure out how dangerous can this be so that the fun is optimized that's really tricky
01:13:28.720and you negotiate that with your play partner and then well how far can i bend dad's arm or his finger or
01:13:36.140his nose and and can i grab his mustache can i grab his beard can what can i do to the other person
01:13:43.120that they're going to find provocative and teasy and fun but not painful and threatening same thing
01:13:50.220you're doing when you're playing with a dog and all of that's deeply embodied right it's not it's not
01:13:55.900conceptual it's it it actually constitutes the prerequisite for the conceptualization of something
01:14:02.260like empathy i think the empathy emerges in part because well we're gonna we're gonna rough and tumble
01:14:07.740play or we're gonna play football or or or soccer for that matter we're gonna be rough with each other
01:14:12.860as much as we possibly can but we all want the game to continue yes and that that's the crucial
01:14:20.640issue there is to to play in a manner that enables you to win but that also enables the game to continue
01:14:26.260and you learn that in competitive games and that's where some very important lessons come in so when a dad
01:14:33.040stops the game because the roughhousing has gone too far and somebody's gotten hurt or it looks like they
01:14:39.020will get hurt and then then the children that are playing the rough doing the roughhousing with the
01:14:44.740dad have to say all right if if if my roughhousing b is being stopped that means what i really want
01:14:51.420immediately my immediate gratification which is to push my brother or sister aside is i have to learn
01:14:58.460postpone gratification because i really want the roughhousing but that roughhousing is is going to be
01:15:04.020over with if i don't consider somebody else's needs per my dad's um recognition the extension of that
01:15:10.840into sexual behavior with women is quite obvious it's like there has to be a physical there has to
01:15:16.600be physical contact but it has to be undertaken in a subtle enough manner so that it's going to continue
01:15:23.360and so that's a way more sophisticated application of the same issue but it's on the same continuum that's
01:15:29.940partly why people dance and partly that is too the women are checking out the men is like well
01:15:34.480can we be reasonably close together in an in a manner highly suggestive of intimacy
01:15:40.560and you're still able to control yourself in a socially acceptable manner it's like is there a
01:15:46.020more direct test of your of your socialization history than that probably not absolutely and it is
01:15:54.260and and that dance i mean you know the tango is a perfect expression of male-female relationships and
01:15:59.820you know and and when we it it has to be a two-sided affair to happen but back on that
01:16:06.820roughhousing issue the the the importance of what that child is learning is that postponed gratification
01:16:14.760and that postponed gratification as we both know is the biggest predictor of success and failure or
01:16:19.740failure in life and the kids that don't have that um tend to um to fail in the postponed gratification
01:16:28.260area that that leads them to being depressed about their own abilities and ashamed like uh with
01:16:34.760salvador ramos the mass shooter in texas not having graduated from high school that led him to feeling so
01:16:39.960just ashamed of himself he um when his mother and he got into a fight grandmother and he got into a fight
01:16:45.300about it she he shoots the grandmother um so people that do you know do not have that postponed
01:16:51.000gratification uh and they don't have a way of uh of of being victorious in their playing in when
01:16:58.580they're two years old like you were talking about i don't think it's a matter of repression i think it's
01:17:03.140a matter of when you are able to play and get along with other kids and have the game you have the
01:17:08.820capacity for expression uh and you don't have to worry about repression becomes a non-issue it was
01:17:15.160yeah that's right yeah i think that's absolutely right i mean you know piaget pointed out quite
01:17:21.300clearly when he analyzed the structure of iterable games and so uh and there's a morality that comes
01:17:27.480out of that is that you have to regulate your behavior in accordance with the willingness of
01:17:32.240others to voluntarily play with you and so that that spirit of voluntary play in some sense is a
01:17:38.500marker for a sustainable reciprocal ethos and so and you also mean one of the things that i did with
01:17:46.260my kids when they were little because we used to exchange jokes all the time and and and the rule
01:17:52.320was you get to be funny but you don't but you can stay you stay on the fun end of funny because funny
01:17:58.380can easily degenerate into teasing and it can become mean and what's really interesting about that is that
01:18:03.520the fun part of that is right on the edge right it's right where i'm saying something to you that's
01:18:09.700so provocative that it's almost too much but not quite that's where it's really funny and you can see
01:18:15.860that as a really subtle testing of the boundary so my son was quite assertive when he as a young child
01:18:25.120he he he was he was a kid he had his own will man he's really still like that as an adult and it was
01:18:32.580very interesting to interact with him because he would come home say from daycare and he'd absorbed a
01:18:40.240bunch of evil spirits at daycare and he'd come home and manifest all sorts of behavioral patterns that
01:18:46.080we were just not putting up with and now and then he'd he'd push it too far for a couple of days and i'd get
01:18:52.720together with my wife and we would we would negotiate it's like okay that kid's getting out of
01:18:57.600control we're not gonna let him do anything out of the out of the proper bounds of propriety
01:19:05.320whatsoever for like a week watch him like a hawk and we'd agree on that and every single time we did
01:19:12.680that he liked both of us better yes and it was so interesting to watch and partly i realized to some
01:19:19.820degree in retrospect is that that focused attention man they're from adults there is nothing more
01:19:25.640valuable than that to a kid and they'll misbehave to evoke that boundary setting because it's so
01:19:31.400utterly crucial for their development i wonder why kids will misbehave and to attract attention it's like
01:19:38.040there's nothing they just like the school shooters there's nothing they want more than attention
01:19:43.120it really it's it is amazing to me the degree to which the need for attention is is so dominant
01:19:50.300among all of us and yeah um and many of us have learned to channel it and you and i have learned
01:19:56.300to channel it in ways that you know that that um that that help others or we think help others and i
01:20:02.420think believe some people would disagree yeah yeah we we delusionally believe that we help others
01:20:09.780right right right right um the um but let's go to the teasing thing for a moment i i think one of
01:20:18.000the differences between dad style parenting and mom style parenting is that when that dads will often
01:20:23.360tease and moms will often feed and then the child will sometimes what if the child that has not been
01:20:28.860teased much or at all before that is predominantly brought up usually by a mom who is much less
01:20:34.320likely to tease when the dad teases the child will often cry and the mom will get feel that the dad is
01:20:42.320being very insensitive because he made the child cry and you therefore don't know much about parenting
01:20:49.000and how to not make the child cry but if and dads aren't very good at explaining that well when i tease
01:20:55.240it's it's it's a way of like teasing is like at its best it's like having a vitamin in a fruit smoothie
01:21:02.460um the the vitamin is the criticism and the fruit smoothie makes the criticism not more palatable
01:21:09.200um by not tasting it so directly it's the wheatgrass does not you know sting your mouth um and so the uh
01:21:17.480and so dads will often say you know well you something like oh well you got away with that one didn't you
01:21:22.800or you are you sort of um um but you you um you lied to that little boy and um and he believed what
01:21:30.420you said you um you know um uh that's that's great are you going to be a champion liar someday do you
01:21:36.000want you think lying should be in the olympics um you know that type of thing and the boy will be able
01:21:41.740or the girl will be able to pick up the fact that dad has noticed that she or he lies notices that lying
01:21:47.540is not really being approved of um but at the at the same time um is not being yelled at and being
01:21:53.100told you know you just lied you shouldn't lie right right well it's also a good way of developing
01:21:58.620resilience it's like because you're going to be tested with frustration and disappointment constantly
01:22:05.280in the social and natural world and so to prod a bit is to also build up resilience the same way
01:22:13.380the immune system adapts to a certain level of pathogen in the environment you don't want a
01:22:17.920pathogen free environment you want a pathogen representative environment and so by by what
01:22:25.760would you say challenging your children on a variety of fronts emotional and physical you first of all
01:22:32.740they get used to the fact that that can happen because it is definitely going to happen to them and
01:22:36.920one of the things that's very interesting about bullies is uh dan always wrote a great book on
01:22:42.280bullying uh i don't know if it's in print anymore bullying what we know and what we can do about it
01:22:46.740very straightforward title he cut bullying rates in scandinavia by 50 by the way and he showed that
01:22:53.540you know there's there's typical bullies but there's also typical bully victims and the bully victims
01:22:59.460are typically selected by the bullies because what the bullies will do is throw out some teasing you know
01:23:06.220one person after another and the the victim who responds with too much infantile behavior to the
01:23:13.240teasing which might mean bursting into tears for example or running to a teacher then it's like well
01:23:19.140now you're the target and so and so without that preparation of teasing and comedy and all of that then
01:23:27.440you send your children unarmed out into the world to face well people who are going to be far worse
01:23:33.740for them then you know the the little devil that's the glint in the father's eye when he says something
01:23:40.740witty but with a barb in it yes so this is one of you were talking about this gentleman being from
01:23:46.740scandinavia and uh when i when i was in denmark doing some speaking there was a um i i went to some
01:23:53.440danish schools and they they do communication skills training in first second third grade where the bully
01:24:01.460and the bullied will come off from you know not just the bully and the bullied um but you know the
01:24:06.600kids in the playground will you know once a week or so uh talk about what happened on that playground
01:24:12.000uh-huh and and the bullied person gets to share what happened from his or her perspective the bully
01:24:19.640gets to share what happens from his or her from their perspective right right so they get to negotiate
01:24:25.540well not only yes negotiate and also just see that what they've just done has hurt somebody else
01:24:33.520right right right right yeah when my kids were little and one of them would tease the other
01:24:38.380into tears let's say or i always made the the bully let's say look at the other child because one of the
01:24:46.860things i noticed was that if they were on a little bullying binge and they made the other person cry
01:24:53.360then they would avoid noticing yes and no no you look you look you look and you see what happened
01:25:00.000and generally that would evoke that empathic response yeah one of the things that might be
01:25:05.920interesting for people to hear is that well if you're a single mother you have a dearth of of positive
01:25:10.780role male role models in your life for your son for your daughter what do you think might be done
01:25:15.740about that that would be productive yeah um a number of things first is to understand understand
01:25:22.240what dads do that is different from what moms do um and because when dads are appreciated for what
01:25:30.780they do that appreciated for their teasing up to a point uh appreciated for their roughhousing up to a
01:25:37.820point appreciated for their encouragement of kids to take risks up to a point and you're counterbalancing
01:25:44.300well first you're letting the your dad know that that roughhousing leads to empathy that the uh
01:25:50.460that the uh focus on um a good boundary leads to postponed gratification that leads to success that
01:25:57.100leads to them feeling better about themselves so when you let a biological dad know that you need that
01:26:03.980from him men are biologically programmed to respond to being needed uh when every when every generation had
01:26:11.340its war and we told men we need you to be willing to die men were willing to die in the millions in
01:26:17.980order to serve to do something to keep other people alive so just don't underestimate if you're a mom
01:26:24.220listening to this don't underestimate how much dads how much we need to learn about what dads do and
01:26:31.580the value of what they contribute so i gotta i want to add something to that that's practical too so
01:26:37.500this is good for for for couples to know in general so when you're you got to have some sense first of
01:26:44.300all imagine your mother and you you think well i'd like my son and my daughter to have a good
01:26:48.940relationship with their father so now you got to think about well you want a good relationship you
01:26:53.820want them to love each other you want them to play together you want them to communicate
01:26:57.740okay so you kind of got that as a distant vision but now you're watching your husband and your kids
01:27:03.260and now and then you're going to see something happening that really makes you pretty happy
01:27:07.820that's a really good time to say hey you know what i just saw that and it made me really happy
01:27:13.740we could have some more of that yes and that like even skinner bf skinner the animal behaviorist he
01:27:19.420learned that the best way to train animals was to use reward not punishment or threat and it's a hell of
01:27:25.980a skill to develop to watch your family members interact and then to see when they're doing something
01:27:32.380that makes you think oh my god if we had that happening 10 times a day wouldn't this be a much
01:27:37.340better household and then to say that and you can get a tremendous way with that so single mothers
01:27:43.900women listening to this if you see your husband and your kids interacting together and and it's going
01:27:50.460well and they're smiling they're laughing they're playing and it's going nicely you want to you want
01:27:56.060to reward that and you definitely don't want to punish it unless you want it to disappear
01:28:01.100and you know some distrust might emerge is is it okay if my husband's doing that it's like if
01:28:06.060the kids are enjoying it you know that's not a bad marker absolutely and the as you know um jordan
01:28:14.300i teach couples communication courses and one of the things that is really important is not is both
01:28:19.980appreciating and also training that developing the discipline to take the that appreciation to a
01:28:27.820deeper level so a man might say you know i love you're a great cook um and but when he says you
01:28:34.860know i really love i really love the way you cook that turkey that begins to feel a little bit more
01:28:41.180like i was really seen but right right that specificity right is that man that gravy you made
01:28:47.500you know i noticed that you put just exactly the right amount of flour and it wasn't it was browned
01:28:52.060perfectly and you brought it to the table heated and like it was spiced so well that specificity of
01:28:58.060reward is that's an unbelievably powerful technique because it shows that you attended eh exactly and
01:29:04.220you're saying is you know is that parsley sage rosemary the specificity of appreciation combined
01:29:10.380with curiosity like you know right right how did you do it so well tell me more about it yeah show
01:29:16.460me what you did yeah is there a way we could do more of that man that's a great thing that's a
01:29:21.980great thing to sprinkle through your entire relationship yes and and sprinkle through let's
01:29:27.020work with that that that that what you just said there is so important most couples they hear that in
01:29:32.380a couple's communication workshop and they say oh that's really important very nice but then they
01:29:36.460never go out and do it part of what i do with my couples is that is to work on the the subtitle of
01:29:43.260the course is the art and discipline of love and almost right right almost nobody associates
01:29:49.820discipline with love but you know doing this appreciation and three of them like my wife and i do
01:29:55.660every wednesday night in our case um or um with with a routine doesn't leave the appreciations
01:30:03.580coming to your partner when they at awake which is often what happens um and so this this um
01:30:10.940this training to appreciate um and then doing it frequently and doing it systematically um this is
01:30:19.420so much an important part of a couple yeah well it really works well with kids too in terms of
01:30:24.780encouraging them so if you see your kid doing something you know like maybe they bring you a
01:30:29.660picture to show you and you and you know you glance at you say well that's nice and that's the end of it
01:30:34.620it's like yeah they came to show you that so maybe you take the picture and you say
01:30:40.140was that a sun it's like you see you drew the rays there the rays look really good and well those
01:30:44.700flowers look good and what were you trying to do with this and maybe you could put a chimney on you
01:30:48.780did a real good job here and this part's particularly good and here's why like to do a differentiated
01:30:54.540analysis of that well people love that especially if you can when my students used to write me essays a
01:31:01.020lot of them especially the initial essays were just bloody awful like almost everything about
01:31:05.500them was awful but now and then they'd throw in a sentence you know that was real it would just sort
01:31:11.180of stand out like a diamond i'd circle it and say yeah more of this and then the next essay would be
01:31:17.820like 30 that and then 60 that you know yes it really is amazing we are you know we have a part of
01:31:25.660our brain is called the rcz rostral singlet zone and when and when we get approval uh that sends
01:31:32.140dopamine to that part of our brain it is just amazing how much we are all um you know we are
01:31:38.220all in need of that of that dopamine and it makes us feel so much more loved uh let me go back for a
01:31:43.660second if i may to the what are the things a mom can do so let's say that there's that the mom does
01:31:49.660not have a biological father that it is possible to bring in their in their life a lot of moms look out for
01:31:55.340stepfathers but oftentimes particularly if they have daughters they are very the father behavior
01:32:03.820combined with being a stepfather often makes the biological mom feel that the father does the
01:32:09.340biological the stepfather does not have as much investment in protecting the child and so when the
01:32:15.980mom sees that the child is um crying as a result of the roughhousing crying as a result of the teasing
01:32:22.140or maybe uh fell um from too high a spot that the the father uh let them go to instead of seeing this
01:32:29.020as a contribution to the children that the stepfather is bringing fears that the stepfather doesn't love
01:32:35.340and have as much investment in the children and therefore the stepfather becomes a vice president
01:32:41.420in the family as opposed to an equal um having an equal relationship and that can happen very subtly you
01:32:48.300know and it's so interesting to watch couples do that like i've seen lots of mothers in particular
01:32:54.700just viciously punish their husbands for interacting with their children so that that husband will take
01:33:00.220some steps he'll he'll start to play and maybe he does it somewhat roughly and she'll just be in there
01:33:06.220protecting the child from the father like right now and you do that like a hundred times and the game's
01:33:11.660over you've permanently disrupted the relationship between the father and the child because you're also
01:33:17.100broadcasting massive signals of distrust to the child it's like well your father's so dangerous
01:33:22.940that we can't even let him play with you a little bit it's like not good and it doesn't allow the
01:33:27.820father to develop any skills either that way and he ends up developing what i call the father's catch 22
01:33:33.740he learns a lot to love the family by being away from the love of the family and earning more money
01:33:38.860okay you know i will take that job you know selling product x um nationwide uh i'm really not needed around
01:33:45.020here so much um but the one thing my wife does appreciate is my bringing in more income so we
01:33:50.060can buy a better home and a better neighborhood a better school district okay i'm rewarded for that
01:33:54.460i'm definitely not being rewarded for the playing that i'm doing and so a lot of dads that you know
01:33:59.420in wanting that reward they see the one way that they're um they're they're um lovable and they don't
01:34:06.140realize that you know the data shows that once a uh once a family has depending on where in the united
01:34:11.900states they live they're earning between 50 000 and 75 000 a year um that that that what the
01:34:18.300children need is more of dad's time not more attention yeah you bet or not more of dad's time
01:34:25.980and so that and so that's important to remember but if let's say there's no stepfather and no biological
01:34:33.180dad um it's very important for parents and the mother um to get the child involved with cub scouts
01:34:41.100two years in cub scouts has shown um very good studies with control group that kids that do and
01:34:47.980don't go to cub scouts um leading to children developing better character and i don't know
01:34:53.420a single mother doesn't want the child to have better character uh to get them involved not just
01:34:58.460in sports but in um in what i call the liberal arts of sports by liberal arts of sports i mean uh organized
01:35:05.980sports really helps them to pay attention to somebody who is creating structure for them and
01:35:10.620know what structure to do but it's also if they want to be an entrepreneur or an original thinker
01:35:15.980it's pick up team sports is really helpful for that because you're saying okay are we are you
01:35:21.100negotiating everything is right we're going to play full court we're going to play half court and
01:35:25.660basketball uh who do i choose um last time that jordan and i play together i passed the ball to him and he
01:35:31.100got a and he and he and he got the and he got the point okay i can pass that ball to him again i can
01:35:36.220trust when he reaches out for it but i i threw that ball to bill and every time he missed okay um
01:35:42.060and you know and what what's a foul um and you know is is a foul being pushed a little bit or a lot
01:35:48.700um you know uh how how how am i exhausting myself quickly by running back and forth
01:35:53.980uh uh in the in the court and so all these things become so many things that are unsupervised behavior
01:36:01.580and the ability of people to sort of like gauge all the subtleties of like we were talking about with
01:36:07.740what no means no what no means maybe all these subtleties are much more easily able to be picked
01:36:13.340up from pickup team sports and because of so many of our fears as parents we've often been discouraging
01:36:19.900our children from doing pickup team sports we haven't been willing to leave them at leave them
01:36:24.300at the school and maybe maybe they do get into a fight at school um but it's important to allow them
01:36:30.220to get into that fight and then process what were the red flags that that told you that this was a
01:36:35.900this was a situation that might lead to a fight and protecting the also an opportunity to practice
01:36:41.580reconciliation i mean one of the things dual is shown and this is very interesting in relationship to
01:36:47.260this alpha idea and this is a good thing for the young men who are listening to really take note of
01:36:52.060this dual has shown quite clearly that sometimes it's the smallest male chimp in the troop who's
01:36:57.340the alpha and that's often a male who's very good at negotiating reciprocal relationships very good at
01:37:05.820reconciliation post-conflict and often allied with a powerful female who's kin related to many of the
01:37:12.620other chimps in the group and has powerful social standing dewald has shown very clearly that um if
01:37:18.700a chimp uses pure physical power as a means of attaining alpha status that the troop is fractious
01:37:26.780that his rule is short and that his end is brutal and that the alphas that are successful are the most
01:37:33.420reciprocal individuals often in the entire troop yes it's all friendship coalition reconciliation
01:37:41.260alliance building and that's and chimps have a patriarchal structure fundamentally a patriarchal
01:37:47.340social structure so they're a good analog of the evil patriarchy in some real sense but
01:37:52.620even in that even among the animal and animals the chimpanzees the mere expression of power is a
01:37:59.340is a it's a unstable social strategy it's by no means optimal and i think that's very tightly
01:38:05.900associated with our discussion earlier about delay of gratification and the spirit of play so you
01:38:11.900have to integrate that aggression into an iterable and desirable social game a mating game and a
01:38:17.420friendship game and a cooperation game and a competition game all of that that's not repression
01:38:23.260and that's not that's not the eradication of toxic masculinity it's the socialization of ambition
01:38:30.620absolutely crucially important we're going to talk a little bit about what might be done on the
01:38:34.540legislative front as well yeah i um on a personal level i got a letter from chris sprowls about um
01:38:41.660six months ago um saying that he had three chris sprowls was the speaker of the house of florida
01:38:47.740saying that he had three sons and he did a lot of these things that we were talking about like the rough
01:38:52.300housing and that helped him explain this to his wife and um and then he gave it to two of the the
01:38:57.980republican democratic leaders in the relevant areas of legislation in the house of representatives of
01:39:04.300florida and they drew up legislation um based on a need to bring more fathers into uh and developing
01:39:12.620something that they called a fatherhood crisis and what was most um rewarding to me was that the
01:39:19.980legislation passed the house with a 100 percent uh a unanimous vote on the part of both the democrats and
01:39:28.140republicans hooray um and usually democrats are much more resistant to understanding the value of
01:39:33.740dads and the family and so i was really proud of them for yeah yeah no kidding that's great we're doing
01:39:39.900that yeah so what do you think that'll translate into practically well so far they've um allocated 75
01:39:47.900million dollars to adult programs some of it is traditional stuff around child support um but others is um
01:39:54.700stuff that isn't just child support by money um but child support by dad involvement which is the more
01:39:59.980important type of right right support and to the degree that they um and there's a number of fathers
01:40:05.820groups in florida uh that are really very um i imagine will be very much involved in the um in the helpful
01:40:12.940execution of that um and so um what i would like to see in florida is the development of fatherhood programs
01:40:20.780that tell men a you're needed b here's what you do differently see here's how you communicate with
01:40:29.420your wife respectfully so that when she says it's not okay to climb the tree you're too young to the
01:40:35.580child and the dad says oh don't be overprotective how to negotiate some way of like climbing that tree so
01:40:42.860the child can climb up to a certain point but not beyond a certain point so dad can be under the
01:40:47.340tree uh to be able to cushion a fall and not have a cell phone with them and so the mom and dad can
01:40:53.420do what i call checks and balance parenting the data shows that the children that do best
01:40:58.940have both a mom and dad that are actively involved and obviously the children that do the best have
01:41:05.820a parents that end up staying together yeah getting divorced well they do opponent processing you know
01:41:11.420because yes so if you want to move your hand smoothly this way the best way to do it is to
01:41:17.580put your other hand there and push against it okay then you can make yeah yeah so that's an opponent
01:41:22.220process and a lot of very fine-grained attunements and calibrations are opponent processes and so you
01:41:28.860imagine how lenient versus um uh permissive should you be with the child and the answer is well it depends
01:41:37.500on the child in the situation and so how do you negotiate that and the answer is well imagine you
01:41:42.620have on the maternal side this more all-encompassing love that's forgiving but can move towards over
01:41:48.700protectiveness and on the paternal side you have this forward encouragement that can be too pushy
01:41:54.380and that has to be calibrated to the child how do you calibrate it and the answer is well the parents
01:41:59.420negotiate and the woman pushes and the man pushes and they find a balance that optimizes that situation
01:42:05.900for the child and then everybody gets what they need if if things if we're lucky and the challenge
01:42:12.620there is each person negotiating often feels the person hearing that negotiation of well we could do
01:42:19.580it differently in this way the person making the suggestion of the negotiation is often perceives
01:42:26.620himself or herself as making a suggestion for a better connection with the children etc the person
01:42:33.500hearing any suggestion of uh of a change in behavior or attitude that is expected or required of that
01:42:40.140person perceives him or herself as being criticized right right right yeah that's a tough one to
01:42:45.100negotiate and the single biggest uh flaw in the the single biggest achilles heel of human beings is our
01:42:51.820inability to handle personal criticism without becoming defensive and well you know you can open up a
01:42:58.940discussion i i did this a lot with my clinical clients because there were often things they
01:43:03.660didn't want to discuss and i said well look here here's the here's the deal here we're going to open
01:43:09.100up the discussion and layout a whole variety of options we are not going to start with the assumption
01:43:14.460that any of these options are correct or that they're mandatory or that they're criticisms of you
01:43:22.300and we're not going to proceed until we agree and that actually works quite nicely in familial
01:43:27.500interactions like well let's have a talk we're not going to assume that you're right and i'm right
01:43:32.860or or and we're not going to try to establish who's right we're going to open up the discussion space
01:43:37.900we're going to evaluate all the different possibilities and then before we move forward we're going to agree
01:43:44.540and i mean you need and it's so interesting to me too that you know we we're so bad at teaching
01:43:50.060people to negotiate they have no idea how to do it and so they do hear any suggestion of something
01:43:55.500different as a criticism it's that's just a non-starter right because if you're trying to
01:43:59.740negotiate with your partner and every time you make a suggestion you're treated as if you're
01:44:05.260disrupting their self-esteem in some fundamental way it's like it's too much effort yes i also
01:44:10.540counseled people to make the discussion about the smallest thing possible it's part of that specificity
01:44:16.700it's like well exactly what time do we want our child to go to bed precisely and why well you know
01:44:25.660is it 7 30 is it 7 45 is it eight o'clock how much time do we need to spend for ourselves so that we
01:44:32.060don't get irritated at the child what's appropriate developmentally let's get it precise and then we can
01:44:37.260negotiate well exactly what is the routine going to be when we put the child to bed and what deviations
01:44:43.500are we going to tolerate and how do we deal with the deviations jointly and that it's so nice for a
01:44:49.020child to have a parental unit that is unified in relationship to boundary enforcement because
01:44:58.620the children will play one child one parent against the other if they can because they're conniving little
01:45:03.580devils and very very smart and and they're motivated to do that but it's such a relief to them to see that
01:45:10.300the walls hold they'll test them and you think well it's mean to put up the walls it's like no it's
01:45:15.740not paradise is a walled garden yes and the children need the walls because otherwise they face an infinite
01:45:23.580expanse of complexity and so they'll test not because they don't want the walls but because they bloody well
01:45:29.740want to know where they are yeah yeah the children without the boundary enforcement or they without those
01:45:34.940walls they most children are are like they feel like they're walking in the dark on a platform that
01:45:41.820they don't know where they're going to fall off um right right right that's a good metaphor but when
01:45:46.860they see the walls they know they but it engenders much more security the process i use in the couples
01:45:53.340workshop that i do is um is because i feel it's biologically unnatural to hear personal criticism from a
01:45:59.980loved one without becoming defensive um i i i have people alter their natural biological space
01:46:07.660first so that they um they they alter their consciousness into six mindsets that they say
01:46:14.140for example like if i um when i call the love guarantee in which they say that i if i provide a
01:46:20.220safe environment for all of your feelings your fears your anger uh without becoming defensive and and just
01:46:26.940hold that space for you you'll feel safer with me and therefore more love from me and therefore more
01:46:33.180love for me um and that's just yeah that that i ask people um to to say whether or not they would be
01:46:40.780willing to um take a 50 risk of dying if their partner was about ready to be killed um but they um but
01:46:49.260they knew with um that that with 100 certainty that they could save their life and about 95 of men say
01:46:56.700that they will risk they would risk their life uh for their partner and understand that some of
01:47:01.180these partners that come to the couples workshop many of them are very secure in their relationship
01:47:05.100but others are thinking about getting a divorce or just breaking up or not you know that type of
01:47:09.820thing so even among there 95 of the men are willing to take a 50 risk of dying in order to save their
01:47:17.980partner's uh life if they know with 100 certainly to certainty they can do that and surprisingly 85 or so of
01:47:25.420the women feel to say the same thing about the men and they're all making these statements on pieces
01:47:30.460of yellow paper that their partner that they wrinkle throw throw into the um center of the room um and
01:47:36.700their partner never discovers what they have what what their answer is but the first mindset then becomes
01:47:43.660if i'm willing to die to give you life then i'm then i can listen to give you life right right right
01:47:50.380and so and then when they've meditated themselves into that and other mindsets like that for about
01:47:56.300a half hour but not much more than a half hour they're able to hear anything their partner says
01:48:02.780in whatever way they say it including exaggerations and lies and yeah well you have to be willing to
01:48:09.580let your partner go off the mark a bit because otherwise you can't have a discussion the other thing i i
01:48:14.860recommend it to people which i think is very useful tell me what you think about this is i always
01:48:21.100suggested that they specify their conditions for satisfaction it's like so let's say i have a beef
01:48:26.300with you it's like okay well here's some things about what you did i don't like well that's pretty
01:48:32.140generic and i don't know how to bind that it's like well is this a criticism of me right to the core or
01:48:37.340what's going on it's like what do you want me to do like if i could redo that and you would be
01:48:44.140satisfied with what i did what exactly would i have to do or say and i think you can even do that
01:48:50.620you know maybe you respond badly to your wife's new outfit and she's disappointed that can be very subtle
01:48:57.460and maybe you're you do that because you're you know you're just not that bright and so she's not happy
01:49:03.180because you didn't respond well you can say what would have you liked to have heard me say and you
01:49:09.260know the first response to that is well if i have to tell you then it doesn't mean anything or you
01:49:13.480don't really care but the response to that is well assume i'm stupid and i need to do this 50 times
01:49:18.900before i'll be even vaguely sophisticated at it and give me a break i'll i'll deliver what you want
01:49:25.020badly in the hopes of being able to do it better in the future and that i think is a very effective
01:49:30.040technique but it's combined with that willingness to let your partner do for you what you need
01:49:37.000badly to begin with because then you get to learn at least you know i think that's that's an important
01:49:44.480way and i also find that when um someone is just complaining and they know it's safe to complain
01:49:53.800and they can say it in whatever tone of voice they want or exaggerated whatever whatever and they're
01:49:59.660even if they incorporated that complaint a request for it to be done differently when they're finished
01:50:06.140the process if they're really heard well and seen let them know what you've heard them say
01:50:11.740and so on i have learned not to respond by telling my wife i will agree to do what she mentions in the
01:50:21.060process because oftentimes when she feels adequately heard what she was asking for in that process is no
01:50:27.780longer yeah well that well that's that's part of the calibration right it's like the person is
01:50:32.500going to have to bitch and whine a lot to kind of cover the territory and one of the things you
01:50:37.640discover this is certainly something you discover in clinical work is that people have to listen to
01:50:43.020what they think and then they can discard like 80 percent of it's like oh well actually you know
01:50:48.280some of that i just i didn't really mean or doesn't seem relevant anymore but you don't bloody well
01:50:53.160know that when it's bubbling up inside you yes and so that's another reason to that's a difficult
01:50:58.280thing to learn to forestall that sense of guilt and and criticism that comes in listening to the
01:51:05.680other person express some negative emotion yeah but knowing that knowing that a fair bit of that
01:51:11.320will dissipate in the telling is definitely a useful thing to a meta a meta strategy to learn
01:51:16.540yeah so we should stop here pretty quick we've been going for almost two hours so i i thought maybe
01:51:22.580one thing we should do maybe both of us separately if there's anybody out there any young guy for example
01:51:30.660who's watching this who's been having vengeful fantasies and and who has been developing and
01:51:37.280toying with fantasies of revenge and who is feeling isolated and lonesome and oppressed and isolated
01:51:43.920and is starting to spin up fantasies of violence in revenge you know and you'll know that if you're
01:51:50.560one of these people like find someone to talk to there's better ways you can deal with this and
01:51:59.000you're young you're 16 you're 17 you don't have to be doomed you know you got your whole life ahead
01:52:04.200of you and maybe just getting out of the place that you're in where you're unpopular might do it for
01:52:09.020you you know you can move to somewhere else and be a new person there's all sorts of pathways in life
01:52:13.780and so you don't have to explosively demonstrate your competence you know in a single vengeful
01:52:19.880violent act there are better ways to deal with the world and you might have reason to be bitter and
01:52:25.220vengeful but but there are better paths there are better paths forward so don't do it do what this
01:52:32.060young man we talked about earlier did is have enough sense to reach out to somebody find someone a
01:52:37.400teacher a principal someone a policeman if it has to be someone yes and and i really encourage every
01:52:46.320school system to um to in the boy crisis book i have a suicide depression inventory and there is
01:52:55.720every home every mass shooting is a suicide um and so i'd love to see that passed out to everyone
01:53:05.400in school so that no one feels singled out for being told that you should take this inventory
01:53:10.960uh so you so that the kids see that so for example with boys when boys say that three or four of the the
01:53:19.940principles that that that tend to be very true for almost all boys thinking these things is feeling
01:53:26.060that no one loves them that no one needs them there's no hope of that changing right and if they do tell
01:53:36.100someone that respects them that that person will lose respect for them those are just four examples of
01:53:44.100that and if they if these red flags of depression or suicide are happening um then we need to reach out
01:53:51.120to these girls and boys girls for different reasons they're not going to shoot up the school
01:53:55.540um but they may shoot up their own lives in a in an internal type of way and we don't want that for any of
01:54:01.780our our girls or our boys yeah well it's not nothing to go and admit to someone that you know that you've
01:54:07.860been having this sort of idea and that you're in that much trouble that takes a that takes a fair bit of
01:54:12.780reorientation and moral courage but the alternative is so cataclysmic and so unnecessary absolutely