The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast - 261. Avoiding School Shootings and the Boy Crisis ｜ Dr. Warren Farrell

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00:00:30.000 Hey, everyone. Real quick before you skip, I want to talk to you about something serious and important. Dr. Jordan Peterson has created a new series that could be a lifeline for those battling depression and anxiety.

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00:01:21.140 Welcome to episode 261 of the JBP podcast. I'm Mikayla Peterson.

00:01:30.020 Today's episode is related to the tragic mass shooting that just took place in Texas.

00:01:35.840 Dr. Warren Farrell joined Dad to discuss these tragedies, which are almost invariably committed by young men,

00:01:42.660 as well as the way masculinity and family structure affect the young men who decide to end their own lives

00:01:47.860 while taking as many others as they can in the process.

00:01:51.700 Dr. Farrell is a nationwide speaker and the author of many books on masculinity,

00:01:56.420 like The Myth of Male Power and Why Men Earn More.

00:02:00.040 Enjoy this episode, and remember to hit subscribe if you like it.

00:02:17.860 Hello, everyone. I'm pleased today, although I suppose in a somewhat grief-stricken way,

00:02:26.460 to be talking once again to Dr. Warren Farrell, who I've spoken with on my podcast twice before in the past,

00:02:34.220 once almost exactly a year ago in end of May of 2021.

00:02:38.980 Dr. Farrell has been chosen by the Financial Times of London as one of the world's top 100 thought leaders

00:02:45.840 and by the Center for World Spirituality as one of the world's spiritual leaders.

00:02:51.540 His books have been published in more than 50 countries and in 19 languages.

00:02:55.720 His most recent book, The Boy Crisis, co-authored with John Gray, was a finalist for the Indie Book Publishing Award.

00:03:04.860 His other books include the New York Times bestseller, Why Men Are the Way They Are,

00:03:10.400 plus the international bestseller, The Myth of Male Power.

00:03:15.240 A book on couples communication, Women Can't Hear What Men Don't Say,

00:03:19.900 was a selection of the Book of the Month Club.

00:03:22.440 And Why Men Earn More was selected by U.S. News and World Report in 2006

00:03:28.580 as one of the top four books on career.

00:03:31.780 A very practical book, by the way, for men and women alike,

00:03:35.120 contemplating how they might maximize their earning power over the course of their career,

00:03:41.560 although that comes at other costs, obviously.

00:03:44.240 Dr. Farrell has taught at the university level in five disciplines

00:03:47.380 and appeared on more than a thousand TV shows,

00:03:50.160 being interviewed repeatedly by Oprah and Barbara Walters,

00:03:53.400 as well as by Peter Jennings, Charlie Rose and Larry King.

00:03:56.540 He's been featured multiple times in Forbes,

00:03:59.280 the New York Times and the Wall Street Journal.

00:04:01.440 He's also the only man ever elected and three times

00:04:06.840 to the board of the National Organization for Women in New York City

00:04:10.200 and currently as chair of the Coalition to Create a White House Council on Boys and Men.

00:04:17.140 He is working with the White House to create such a council.

00:04:20.340 He teaches couples communication courses around the country

00:04:23.880 and speaks internationally on the global boy crisis,

00:04:27.780 its causes and solutions.

00:04:29.920 And today, unfortunately, we're going to be discussing a series,

00:04:36.180 a duo, let's say, of recent tragedies, catastrophes,

00:04:40.760 acts of malevolence in the United States, both in New York and in Texas.

00:04:46.780 Unfortunately, all too present and all too preoccupying mass school shooting.

00:04:53.560 And we're going to delve into that pleasant topic

00:04:56.300 and try to see if we can make some headway in a practical,

00:04:59.600 in a, what would you say, in a conceptual and practical sense.

00:05:05.900 Very good to see you again, Warren.

00:05:07.900 It's a real pleasure to see you, although I'm sorry about the stimulus for this, of course.

00:05:12.660 Yeah.

00:05:13.080 Well, so let's dive right into it.

00:05:15.280 I'll offer some ideas about what I think is motivating this.

00:05:18.540 But I want to hear what you've written so much about, well, as we can see in the background,

00:05:23.440 crisis of masculinity, the crisis among boys.

00:05:26.360 Maybe you want to define what that crisis constitutes and then maybe zero in to the issue

00:05:30.860 of what's happening with these mass homicides by committed almost always by young men,

00:05:36.760 almost invariably.

00:05:37.680 Yeah, we've seen a lot of theories recently.

00:05:41.700 We've seen, you know, in Buffalo, we saw the replacement theory style, you know, hatred,

00:05:46.160 and everybody zoomed in on that.

00:05:47.900 Then we looked at the access to guns as an issue.

00:05:50.180 We looked at toxic politics.

00:05:51.520 We look at family values are really bad in this generation in particular.

00:05:56.500 We look at violence in the media.

00:05:58.560 We look at violence in video games.

00:06:00.600 We look at mental illness. 0.92

00:06:02.340 Obviously, anyone who does a mass shooting has a mental illness problem.

00:06:05.540 And then you ask a different question, which is, wait a minute, our daughters are exposed

00:06:10.640 to the same replacement theory style hatred, the same access to the same guns in the same

00:06:17.680 homes, and they're the same family values, the same toxic politics, the same violence in

00:06:24.040 video games, the same violence in the media.

00:06:26.160 And our daughters are not doing the mass shootings.

00:06:29.280 And they're not doing very little shootings, period.

00:06:32.820 Our sons are.

00:06:33.800 And so it should be obvious to us that there's something happening with our sons.

00:06:39.320 And in fact, there is.

00:06:40.960 And it's not just happening in the United States.

00:06:42.880 It's happening globally.

00:06:44.400 And it's happening not just in, not in all countries.

00:06:47.560 It's happening in all developed nations.

00:06:50.740 In the 53 largest developed nations, boys are falling behind in every academic subject,

00:06:57.380 but especially reading and writing.

00:06:58.800 And reading and writing, as you know, are the two biggest predictors of success or failure.

00:07:03.420 And so failing in school is one thing.

00:07:07.700 But then that failing, if boys who are dropping out of high school at a much higher rate than

00:07:12.580 girls, and even though they're being admitted to college at a 60-40 rate only, they graduate

00:07:18.800 from college now at about one half the rate of daughters.

00:07:24.320 Daughters, our daughters who graduate from college are not usually looking for a boy who

00:07:30.020 has been a dropout in either high school or college.

00:07:33.380 Girls tend to be attracted more to winners. 0.97

00:07:35.700 And boys who are dropout, dropout are also perceived as losers.

00:07:42.460 And, and yeah, well, that's a, that's a critical point there that we don't want to gloss over,

00:07:46.980 which is that girls tend to be attracted to winners. 1.00

00:07:50.920 And so we know cross-culturally that girls, when they're looking for a permanent long-term 0.94

00:07:56.860 mate, so young women tend to prefer boys who are four to five years older, and that's pretty 0.99

00:08:01.980 stable cross-culturally, and that they tend to be attracted to males who are their equivalent

00:08:08.620 in terms of socioeconomic success or above.

00:08:12.060 Whereas with males, the relationship between socioeconomic success and female attractiveness 0.54

00:08:17.640 is virtually nil for boys.

00:08:20.060 It's almost the only determinant of their attractiveness.

00:08:22.960 So for a boy to be a loser on the, let's say, competition front, especially given extreme

00:08:28.460 female sexual choosiness, I was looking at data today that showed that women on dating 1.00

00:08:33.480 sites rate 80% of men as below average.

00:08:37.100 And whereas men, men find 60% of the women they look at on online dating sites, acceptably 0.98

00:08:43.880 attractive, women find 4.5% of them acceptably attractive.

00:08:48.740 And so there's this nexus between success in the competitive workplace and between men say,

00:08:55.380 and attractiveness to women that drives male motivation in a way that's virtually inconceivable

00:09:00.600 on the female front.

00:09:01.700 And we don't take this sort of thing with any degree of seriousness.

00:09:05.900 We don't.

00:09:06.900 And it really is, it's very crucial because the, it makes the boy crisis globally more than

00:09:13.640 just a boy crisis.

00:09:14.660 It means that the boy is feeling like he's being rejected sexually and rejected in relationship

00:09:20.680 wise.

00:09:21.120 And very few of us know that, that when boys and girls break up in a relationship, we

00:09:26.260 usually think of the girls as being more depressed. 0.51

00:09:28.840 In fact, the data shows that the boys are more depressed when you know how to measure a boy

00:09:32.940 depression.

00:09:33.420 But most of the measures of depression have been based on females expression of depression,

00:09:38.140 not males repression of depression.

00:09:40.580 And so that's a whole other area that has to be worked on.

00:09:45.580 But when a boy is feeling like he's being rejected sexually and relationship wise, and

00:09:51.580 is feeling like his teachers are not speaking well of him because he's not doing well in

00:09:56.260 class, and his parents are maybe speaking about his brother or sister with pride in their

00:10:00.860 voice, but sort of leaving him out.

00:10:02.840 He begins to feel this enormous vulnerability, but in this, but also that vulnerability is

00:10:09.440 expressed by anger as well.

00:10:12.000 Bitterness, resentment, desire for revenge.

00:10:15.000 Yep.

00:10:15.460 Yep.

00:10:15.760 All of that.

00:10:16.580 And fantasies that emerge as a consequence of that too.

00:10:19.620 Fantasies of revenge and, and the acquisition of status.

00:10:23.840 That's exactly, that's exactly right.

00:10:25.480 And these boys, and so they sort of turn to, they may turn to guns as a way of saying, you

00:10:31.620 know, I'm strong.

00:10:33.180 I'm not, you know, I'm not the loser that you think I am, as you know, did with in Texas.

00:10:37.700 And not only did he show the guns on TikTok and on Instagram, but also try to tease Anita,

00:10:44.840 a girl that he thought he knew who didn't know him at all, basically.

00:10:50.140 And he was hoping to sort of get her attention by saying, you know, I'm going to be doing something

00:10:54.180 important.

00:10:55.200 Watch out, watch out for me.

00:10:56.820 Oh, I didn't know it had become that detailed in relationship to a relationship.

00:11:00.760 Yeah.

00:11:01.620 So, well, she would say it was not a relationship.

00:11:04.320 Right, right, right.

00:11:05.180 It was a fantasy on his part.

00:11:06.920 It was a fantasy on his part, for sure.

00:11:10.120 And so what, you know, as I started studying this, I saw that it is not just the boy crisis,

00:11:16.680 but that the boy crisis resides where dads do not reside.

00:11:21.680 And so when we look at the mass, the six mass shooters in the 21st century, who have been

00:11:29.440 school shooters, who have the, those, all six of those mass shooters who have been school

00:11:36.120 shooters in the 21st century, all six of them for whom we know the family background, every

00:11:41.820 single one of them were dad deprived boys, including, you know, in Texas.

00:11:46.920 And the, you know, and the stories are so amazingly similar.

00:11:51.620 The dads are not involved.

00:11:53.840 The mothers become involved.

00:11:55.940 They care for the children a great deal.

00:11:58.220 But the boy feels he has no sort of no structure, no purpose, no discipline.

00:12:05.240 Dads are far more likely, especially with their sons, to require their sons to be very good with

00:12:11.100 boundary enforcement.

00:12:12.020 Mothers tend to be more, more effective with just empathy and saying, sweetie, you know, 0.73

00:12:17.780 you have a wonderful voice.

00:12:18.940 You should sing.

00:12:19.620 You should, you know, you're, you're really good at acting.

00:12:22.020 You should act.

00:12:23.100 But the, but acting and singing in any accomplishment takes a great deal of discipline.

00:12:27.520 And the dad is more likely to say, don't expect us to get a tutor for you or for me to

00:12:31.220 drive you to school to, for this, you know, for this special practice that you're doing

00:12:34.940 for basketball.

00:12:36.240 If you're not, if you're not practicing at home and doing these other things.

00:12:39.740 Um, and the mom is saying, yeah, don't be mean.

00:12:42.600 He's, he's upset that you're not doing that.

00:12:44.640 Whereas the dad will say, no, I need to make it clear to him that he can't just manipulate

00:12:50.080 everything.

00:12:50.660 He do everything he wants to do and expect us to take him everywhere and not have the

00:12:54.520 discipline to succeed himself.

00:12:56.220 Not without a quid pro quo.

00:12:58.080 So what do you mean by exactly by boundary enforcement in that situation and the difference

00:13:03.340 between mothers and fathers in that?

00:13:05.340 Yes, a mom will be much more likely to say, um, a mom's and dad's will both set boundaries

00:13:11.180 almost the same way.

00:13:12.140 One of the biggest, uh, misunderstandings in parenting is not understanding the difference

00:13:17.080 between setting boundaries versus enforcing boundaries.

00:13:20.140 So moms and dads, when, um, both, um, when a mom is with a child, um, more than a dad,

00:13:26.420 she tends to set, um, bedtimes, um, that are, uh, that are earlier.

00:13:31.500 Dads set later bedtime.

00:13:33.580 So you'd think, oh, the dad is more lenient, but the studies show that the children with

00:13:38.300 dads get to bed, in fact, earlier than the children with moms, because moms tend to do 0.99

00:13:44.680 something like, um, set, they set the bedtime, let's say at eight 30 and the child, it comes

00:13:49.320 to eight 30 and, uh, and the child says, oh, I haven't finished my homework.

00:13:52.920 And mom goes, oh my goodness, I definitely don't want you to go into school without finishing

00:13:56.520 your homework.

00:13:57.240 Okay, sweetie, you know, you can, you can, um, spend a little bit more time finishing your

00:14:01.820 homework and she monitors and sees, and then that becomes nine o'clock.

00:14:05.680 Oh, you didn't leave me a story.

00:14:07.180 Okay.

00:14:07.540 I'll be great.

00:14:08.580 Since you did your homework, that was good that you did that.

00:14:11.160 And now it's nine 15, nine 30.

00:14:13.420 Uh, dad is more likely to say some version of, um, and you know, the data bears this

00:14:17.680 out.

00:14:18.160 Uh, dad is more likely to say some version of, um, I'm sorry, you didn't do your homework.

00:14:22.680 Um, you had all this time to do it.

00:14:25.080 Um, you're going to go to class and not do your homework.

00:14:29.320 Well, all right. 0.56

00:14:30.440 Tough luck for you, rat go to bed and do better next time. 0.98

00:14:34.360 Yeah.

00:14:34.800 Do you know, Warren, if there's been any studies linking that capacity for boundary enforcement

00:14:40.900 to personality traits, like agreeableness, has that, has the work being done that, that

00:14:46.620 fine green to level?

00:14:48.460 I do.

00:14:48.600 I don't know for sure about the agreeableness per se, but the, the, I think one of the

00:14:54.640 misunderstandings about moms and dads is that behavior, that agreeable behavior is considered

00:15:00.380 by moms as being like unconditional love.

00:15:03.640 Whereas we, whereas we don't use the word unconditional love nearly as often with our

00:15:08.420 dads, but in fact, our dads have unconditional love, but for them, part of unconditional love

00:15:15.480 is having conditional approval.

00:15:18.320 Yeah.

00:15:18.600 Well, I think maybe that's the distinction between, it's something like the distinction

00:15:22.380 between that all encompassing maternal acceptance that's maybe at the core of infant care and

00:15:28.820 the encouragement that's more patriarchal or patristic to develop.

00:15:34.980 And those things are, those things are juxtaposed to some degree because the universal love is,

00:15:40.040 well, you're okay exactly the way you are and we accept you.

00:15:42.760 But the conditional love is, no, you have to grow up when, and because we love you, we don't

00:15:48.120 want you to stay infantile.

00:15:49.480 We want you to develop competence.

00:15:51.040 We want you to be not only socially acceptable, but socially sophisticated, productive, generous,

00:15:56.860 and that's all conditional on, well, a very high level of behavior.

00:16:01.040 Absolutely.

00:16:01.680 And we see this also exactly right.

00:16:04.100 And we see this even in the way parent family dinner nights are constructed.

00:16:09.080 And we, you know, we all know that family dinner nights are highly correlated with a healthy family

00:16:13.900 and healthy, healthy children.

00:16:15.380 But many family nights deteriorate into family dinner nightmares by the mother and father sort

00:16:21.460 of interrupting the child when she or he is talking or arguing a different, you know,

00:16:26.720 a different perspective on something.

00:16:28.720 And then the child feels like, and then you notice the child is talking quite voluminously

00:16:34.140 to their girlfriend or boyfriend, but not to the parents.

00:16:37.300 And when you, the parents ask them something, they go, they just shut up before they start

00:16:41.080 up because they don't want to be interrupted.

00:16:43.480 Um, but the parents that are really good at listening to the children are oftentimes filled

00:16:49.660 with empathy without understanding that being only empathetic toward a child does not produce

00:16:57.160 an empathetic child.

00:16:58.460 It produces often a self-centered child that is filled with himself.

00:17:02.920 Um, and so part of, you know, what, part of what I discovered was so important in family

00:17:07.920 dinner nights is to make sure that the children also, um, are required, not encouraged, but

00:17:14.640 required to also listen to the parents' perspective without interrupting them and to, and to empathize

00:17:22.120 with it and say, mom, dad, you know, what I hear you say is this, is that correct?

00:17:26.180 Did I distort anything?

00:17:27.400 Did I miss anything?

00:17:28.600 Is there anything you want to add mom or dad?

00:17:30.380 Well, very few children do that to their moms and dads.

00:17:33.160 And unfortunately, that's that great technique that was pioneered by Carl Rogers.

00:17:37.640 Right.

00:17:38.120 Listen and summarize to the other person's satisfaction.

00:17:42.140 Yes.

00:17:42.600 It's a great, it's a great communication style.

00:17:45.620 It's very annoying if you're trying to win an argument with someone and just crush them.

00:17:49.200 But if you actually want peace, then it's a wonderful communication style.

00:17:55.000 And so, yeah, well, this, this, uh, see, let me run a couple of things by you.

00:18:00.720 Tell me what you think about this.

00:18:02.220 So I was talking to friends to wall the other day, primatologists who studied chimp behavior. 0.76

00:18:07.640 And one of the things he said was that, uh, you give female juveniles, chimps, a block

00:18:13.840 of wood that's, you know, about this big, say they'll frequently carry it around in their

00:18:20.740 arms or carry it around in their back, like an infant and, and care for it like a doll,

00:18:25.760 even though it's just a block of wood.

00:18:27.260 Um, and the males juveniles do not do that.

00:18:30.420 And if you give the female chimps a doll, a teddy bear or a doll or a chimp doll, whatever, 1.00

00:18:36.520 they will definitely care for that.

00:18:38.620 And then they will share it with their compatriots because chimps essentially have friendships

00:18:43.160 and they will become extraordinarily upset if the people that are the chimpanzees that 0.72

00:18:48.680 they're associating with don't take proper care of the doll.

00:18:51.380 If you give a doll to a juvenile male, he'll tear it apart, see what it's made of. 0.73

00:18:56.600 And so, and so that it's the infantile, it's the projection of the infant onto the block

00:19:01.500 of wood.

00:19:01.940 That's particularly interesting to me because one of the things I see happening, I would

00:19:06.380 say on a broad scale level in our society, this is perhaps where this will might get

00:19:10.780 somewhat contentious is that I think with that, with the feminine ethos that centered

00:19:16.840 on infant care, which is an extraordinarily important thing to be centered on, given the

00:19:21.600 dependency of our infants.

00:19:23.920 Imagine the world is sort of divided into three parts.

00:19:26.860 There's infants, there's infant caregivers, and there's predators.

00:19:33.540 And so infants can do no wrong.

00:19:36.520 Infant caregivers are motivated by the highest and noblest of motivations, which is essentially

00:19:41.580 an all-encompassing empathy.

00:19:44.520 And anyone who isn't either of those two things is to be regarded with severe suspicion.

00:19:49.720 And that's a very good ethos if you're dealing with infants, but it's a very bad ethos if you're

00:19:54.680 dealing with, well, larger scale social organizations.

00:19:57.600 And I see, I was reading these guidelines for faculty members at Mount Royal College in Calgary

00:20:06.940 and for a faculty retreat, you know, which is really not one of the world's most dangerous,

00:20:13.120 what would you say, happenings.

00:20:16.420 Yes.

00:20:16.800 And all of the faculty members were assured that trained counselors would be at hand in

00:20:22.260 case the discussion became intense beyond the point of tolerability.

00:20:26.020 And I thought, what's going on here?

00:20:28.080 It's like, well, the faculty members are infants and those who oppose their ideas are predators.

00:20:33.040 And the appropriate moral ethos is to care for the infants.

00:20:37.380 And it's like, well, yeah, except no, because they're not infants.

00:20:40.720 And this is not mother and baby.

00:20:44.100 And this is also, to me, it's also an extension of the Freudian nightmare, the Oedipal nightmare

00:20:49.980 that produces both dependency and narcissism as a consequence of the overextension, the unregulated

00:20:56.320 overextension of that essential ethos directed at infants.

00:21:00.680 Yes.

00:21:00.940 Is that too harsh?

00:21:02.020 I don't think so at all.

00:21:04.120 And I think that mothers and fathers just have such different styles of parenting.

00:21:09.640 And, you know, with the common goal, we all want our children to do well.

00:21:13.020 We all care about them.

00:21:14.500 But what we know, what I saw when I did the research for the boy crisis is that the children

00:21:22.480 that didn't have dads in their lives, even the girls did worse in 50 different areas. 1.00

00:21:28.560 There were more likely the boys as well, but the boys more intensely in those areas, both

00:21:34.520 boys and girls who didn't have a lot of dad involvement.

00:21:38.020 By the age of nine and a half, their telomeres were shorter.

00:21:42.140 Wow.

00:21:42.620 14% shorter on average.

00:21:45.080 That's the average between boys and girls when a father was not involved in a significant

00:21:50.500 way by the time that child was nine and a half.

00:21:53.320 However, the telomeres of the boys were yet again, 40% shorter than the telomeres of the

00:22:00.360 girls.

00:22:00.720 And many people don't know that the telomeres, the length of telomeres when you're nine and

00:22:04.800 a half years of age is one of the best predictors of your life expectancy.

00:22:09.840 You know, the telomeres, you know, carry, of course, the genes that tell you whether you're

00:22:14.480 subject to cancer or vulnerable to any, you know, any set of diseases.

00:22:19.940 And so the fact...

00:22:21.160 Right.

00:22:21.220 They're determiners of senescence, right?

00:22:23.100 Of the onset of senescence, essentially.

00:22:25.300 Yes.

00:22:25.760 Wow.

00:22:25.900 And so it's that basic.

00:22:27.540 It's that basic.

00:22:29.080 And that early.

00:22:29.720 And the impact on both girls and boys.

00:22:36.500 I mean, there are certain differences between the lack of father on girls versus boys.

00:22:41.100 For example, girls who don't have very much father involvement are far more likely to be

00:22:45.680 pregnant as teenagers because they either... 0.83

00:22:49.460 That's oftentimes by not having father involvement, they don't know how to interact in a very socially

00:22:55.320 nuanced way with a boy.

00:22:57.380 Right. 0.97

00:22:57.520 They do know, though, that when they're 13, 14 years of age, that that boy wants sex. 0.71

00:23:02.780 And so if there's another girl that might give him sex and she wants to keep the boy 1.00

00:23:06.940 and not have him go to the other girl, she'll go ahead and be sexual. 1.00

00:23:10.680 And if he doesn't want to wear a condom, okay.

00:23:12.860 He doesn't want to...

00:23:13.580 She doesn't want to make his sexual experience one less... 1.00

00:23:15.860 Well, she has no experience under those conditions negotiating with any male.

00:23:20.940 Well, I know the data, the data I remember, it's a few years old now, indicated quite clearly

00:23:26.340 that girls with fewer brothers were much more likely to be raped.

00:23:30.400 And I presume, and I've seen, you know, brotherless girls among my clients, for example, some of whom were prone

00:23:39.820 to sexual assault for all sorts of reasons, they had no idea how to negotiate no at an early stage.

00:23:49.240 Yes.

00:23:49.880 So by the time they were frightened enough to object, it was often so far along the unwanted

00:23:57.280 amorous advance cycle that it was very difficult for things to stop.

00:24:02.020 And of course, the guy on the other end presumes, often as unsophisticated as his victim,

00:24:06.520 is, presumes that consent has already been obtained at that point.

00:24:11.720 The girls with brothers have learned how to negotiate at that really embodied level, you know,

00:24:20.140 the same embodied level that probably emerges or underlies sophistication that emerges out

00:24:25.860 of rough and tumble play with fathers and so on.

00:24:29.800 So, yeah, I know.

00:24:31.300 I mean, the paternal involvement seems really to me to boil down to something.

00:24:36.520 Like a kind of, uh, uh, a conditional encouragement.

00:24:41.600 It's like, I really want the best for who you could be.

00:24:44.840 And I'm also confident in your ability to attain that.

00:24:48.200 And so I can hold you to high standards and enforce it because I think so much of you,

00:24:54.900 so much of what you could be.

00:24:56.620 Yes.

00:24:57.100 And I think that is a lovely juxtaposition with that more maternal sense of you always have

00:25:02.060 a home here.

00:25:02.720 We'll accept you in some real sense, no matter what you do.

00:25:05.320 Not that women don't put conditions on their children, because of course they do, but we're 0.98

00:25:10.000 talking about the way that's expressed in a very practical sense.

00:25:14.680 Yes.

00:25:15.040 And, and, okay, so, so these boys that let, let's let, let's look at the more extreme

00:25:19.700 case for a minute.

00:25:20.520 These, these school shooters.

00:25:21.740 So my understanding of their psychology is that, uh, they're resentful.

00:25:29.600 They're, they're low down on the status hierarchy.

00:25:32.880 They're not attractive to potential mates.

00:25:35.140 They're not necessarily very popular.

00:25:37.420 They don't, and they don't have a lot of hope for attaining any of that in the future.

00:25:41.640 So they're very, very frustrated by that lowly position.

00:25:46.020 And that makes them angry.

00:25:48.240 It makes them resentful.

00:25:49.280 Then it starts to generate compensatory fantasies, which would be, well, I'll do something.

00:25:53.900 I'll show them.

00:25:54.700 I'll show them.

00:25:55.580 I'll show them.

00:25:56.400 I'm going to be famous.

00:25:57.500 Everybody's going to know who I am.

00:25:59.180 And then they drift and they drift into, they can drift into these violent fantasies.

00:26:04.780 And sometimes that's motivated also by thoughts of direct revenge because they've been bullied

00:26:09.100 and they've been pushed around.

00:26:10.360 And so they have reasons to be angry.

00:26:13.300 Let's say, no, I'm not saying any of this is justified by the way.

00:26:16.400 I'm just saying how it works.

00:26:17.680 And then they brewed for months, weeks, months, and years developing these fantasies of violence,

00:26:25.000 but more importantly, focusing on the consequences for notoriety of the violent act.

00:26:32.340 And so one of the things that I've been suggesting to people who are interested in this sort of thing is,

00:26:41.820 especially people on the media side, is that they don't use the shooter's names.

00:26:46.620 They don't report the shooter's names.

00:26:48.360 And I think because the thing about the mass shooters in particular is they've learned how to hijack the media world

00:26:56.180 to provide themselves with hundreds of millions of dollars worth of free publicity,

00:27:00.820 to draw attention to their manifestos, for example.

00:27:04.200 But also, and then they can have these fantasies.

00:27:06.380 It's like the same kind of fantasy that a suicidal teenager will have

00:27:10.380 because the suicidal teenager will often fantasize about as if he's a spirit that will be there at his funeral.

00:27:16.560 Everybody huddled around the coffin, including the boys and girls who rejected him,

00:27:22.620 expressing their sympathy for the way that he behaved, expressing their sorrow for the mistreatment that he suffered.

00:27:29.620 The parents are doing the same thing.

00:27:31.640 And he sees this in a very dramatic sense.

00:27:34.120 And there's an elaboration of that on the violent side.

00:27:38.180 And they want to be notorious.

00:27:40.380 And you ask why and why boys, not girls?

00:27:42.900 And the answer is, well, success to boys is linked with popularity with girls, for example,

00:27:49.460 in a way that it's simply not linked for girls with boys.

00:27:52.960 And it's a huge difference.

00:27:55.420 So do you see anything wrong in that?

00:27:57.720 You and I had an interesting experience that I wanted to touch on.

00:28:00.840 So part of the reason I reached out to Warren in the aftermath of these events is because

00:28:04.660 he got a letter six months ago, something like that.

00:28:10.400 Do you want to tell the story?

00:28:12.120 Go ahead and tell the story.

00:28:12.900 I opened my email and I saw a letter from somebody who was a Hispanic young man in Texas, actually.

00:28:20.640 And he and he said to me, you know, thank you for the boy crisis book.

00:28:26.240 And he said, I was raised by my dad and I was raised by I'm sorry, I was raised by my mom without a dad.

00:28:33.020 And then I was passed on to my aunts, who both neither had a father or a man, a husband in their life or a man or boyfriend in their life.

00:28:43.040 Then I was passed on to my grandmother.

00:28:44.880 She didn't have a man in the life.

00:28:46.280 None of them liked men very much.

00:28:48.420 I heard negative things about my father, but I never really saw much or anything of him.

00:28:55.880 And and so I didn't I didn't have any structure.

00:28:58.720 I didn't have any purpose.

00:28:59.660 So I got involved with 4chan and then I got involved with 8chan and 8chan is a fascist group.

00:29:06.000 And the fascist group gave me something I could count on, an ideology.

00:29:10.480 It gave me structure.

00:29:11.340 It gave me purpose.

00:29:12.220 It gave me a sense like a gang.

00:29:15.120 Yes, it's very much like a gang.

00:29:17.140 It gave gangs, give you respect when you don't feel you have respect.

00:29:21.320 You get the gangs promise you respect, I should say.

00:29:24.840 And so you become part of that family.

00:29:27.240 And so and he felt very much part of that family.

00:29:30.440 So he told me.

00:29:31.660 So I wrote up a 52 page manifesto that was overlapping in its effectiveness.

00:29:37.240 I thought it was even better than the two other people at 8chan who had become celebrated mass shooters.

00:29:41.920 And and he said, I was ready to I was making the plans to carry it out.

00:29:47.960 And in the process, I stumbled across the this the boy crisis book and what and what he said to me was very powerful.

00:29:58.040 He said, it wasn't the data that got to me.

00:30:01.440 It was being seen that you saw it was like you were a spy in my life telling me what I was feeling, the hurt that I had, the lack of structure, the lack of purpose, the loss of self, the feeling that I didn't have that boundary enforcement.

00:30:19.600 Therefore, I didn't have that discipline.

00:30:21.560 I didn't have anything that anybody that would tell me that's too much, that's too little.

00:30:27.560 That's, you know, you're doing that wrong.

00:30:30.180 And so and you could do better and you could do better.

00:30:32.660 And you were explaining all that and just being seen for my vulnerabilities made me not have the energy that I had to begin to continue carrying out my what I had outlined in my manifesto.

00:30:48.440 And so we ended it by saying, you know, thank you for saving not just my life, but the live lives of countless others, because I was really working this.

00:30:55.860 So there would have been countless others.

00:30:58.180 So I would have been seen as as be doing something that he felt was positive, that is helping the fascist ideology to be more broad spread.

00:31:10.280 And so, you know, what I really my my heart is saying to people that I hear is that when we see a mass shooter, we see somebody with in this type of modality, we have we see that they're angry and we tend to have anger at their anger, as opposed to having empathy at their vulnerability.

00:31:35.920 And what I thought, what what what this fellow was telling me was, you had empathy at my phone about my vulnerability.

00:31:45.300 And when I saw that you saw my vulnerability, I lost my anger or my anger diminished enough to not make me want to follow up and follow through so systematically on my 52 page manifesto.

00:32:00.280 And I did end up going to a couple of psychologists.

00:32:02.660 I did a few sessions with him as well.

00:32:04.960 I have talked to wrote to you about it, you gave me some guidance, guidance as to what to do with him.

00:32:11.060 And so and and almost the exact same pattern happened with also in Texas.

00:32:18.060 He was doing poorly in school, he dropped out of school, he had a speech impediment.

00:32:25.180 He was being bullied.

00:32:26.780 He was feeling like he was a failure on on almost every aspect of life.

00:32:32.660 And then he began, I was mentioning to you, I think, offline that he that he had this this girl, a fantasy about a girl named Anita.

00:32:41.220 And he was texting her and saying, I'm going to be see my guns here on TikTok, see my guns on Instagram and watch out for me, Anita.

00:32:53.760 I'm going to be doing something.

00:32:54.920 And he's going get out of here.

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00:35:43.600 Well, that shows you the degree of fantasizing, right?

00:35:49.800 Because what that means in some sense is that to put myself in his position, which is, of course, an uncomfortable thing to do, is he's constructed this girl in his imagination.

00:35:59.640 And she would be, you know, maybe she looked at him one day and that would be enough.

00:36:06.260 And now he's imagining that if he can only elevate himself to notorious status, that he would become an object of admiration.

00:36:19.120 And God only knows how many hundreds of hours he might have spent fantasizing about that, fantasizing about the relationship he'd have with the girl and how much she would admire him and how everyone would know his name.

00:36:30.440 And you don't get to the point where you do something like shoot up the school without, I would say, literally hundreds of hours of fantastic dreaming about the event, about the day, about mostly about what's going to happen afterwards and how your name is going to be on everyone's lips.

00:36:48.980 It's so striking, eh, that that young man who reached out to you was deterred by what was essentially an accurate diagnosis of his situation and that that was sufficient.

00:37:01.660 You know, when I'm out on my tours talking to audiences, many of whom are young men who are suffering the consequences of the sorts of things that we've been discussing,

00:37:11.840 the thing that's been so terrible to me to see is to the degree to which so many of them are suffering so intensely for lack of a single encouraging word.

00:37:26.440 You know, and it's so sad that they have to get that from me on YouTube or in a lecture that they haven't had anyone in their life.

00:37:33.200 And we're in this situation now where, you know, frequently any manifestation of masculine ambition in even its juvenile forms.

00:37:42.880 So the desire to engage in rambunctious play, let's say, is instantly associated not only with pathology that needs to be medicated, let's say, in the case of ADHD,

00:37:53.160 which I do think is a disorder of repressed play.

00:37:57.160 And Yach Panksep did a lot of work showing that that might be the case.

00:38:00.640 But also that, you know, we associate that male ambition with, well, the force that's literally the patriarchal oppressive force that's literally destroying the world.

00:38:10.820 It's like, well, how the hell do you expect young men to react to that?

00:38:14.280 And the answer might be something like, well, there's too bloody many people on the planet anywhere.

00:38:18.500 And if we stopped running around doing things, things would be a lot better.

00:38:22.180 It's like, well, that really leaves them nowhere to go, doesn't it?

00:38:25.880 So except, well, except to some very dark places in some situations.

00:38:30.560 I was doing some, somebody was filming me talking about these issues the other day.

00:38:36.020 And we were in the middle of a, we were, we were in a little island in the middle of a creek.

00:38:40.880 And a young man who looked like he was about 16, 15, was passing by.

00:38:47.340 And I said, and he showed some curiosity about the filming.

00:38:51.360 And I said, I asked, I signaled him over here.

00:38:54.420 I said, could you join us for a moment?

00:38:55.880 I said, you know, in high school, are you in high school?

00:38:59.280 And he says, yes.

00:39:00.200 And he said, I was a sophomore.

00:39:01.900 And he said, you know, do you, what do you learn about men and women or boys and girls or sexuality and stuff like that in high school?

00:39:09.180 And he said, oh, you know, I hear, I guess, the word toxic masculinity a lot.

00:39:14.220 And I said, anything else?

00:39:15.920 And he said, oh, yeah, the teachers are always talking about we're part of the patriarchy. 0.99

00:39:19.880 And, you know, men, especially white men, are really the oppressors. 0.91

00:39:24.300 And then I said, anything else? 0.97

00:39:26.120 And he said, yeah, male privilege is always coming up.

00:39:28.660 You know, if I do well, it's because I have male privileges.

00:39:31.480 If I don't do well, it's because I don't do well. 0.99

00:39:34.860 I'm a loser. 0.97

00:39:36.200 I said, anything else? 0.99

00:39:37.480 And he says, you always hear the future is female. 1.00

00:39:39.940 And I said, how does that make you feel about your future?

00:39:42.920 And he laughed, you know, in accordance.

00:39:45.800 Good, he could laugh.

00:39:46.920 Yeah, I mean, he laughed sadly.

00:39:48.400 So I said, then, if you're out on a date, are you going out on dates yet?

00:39:52.920 Yes, yes, I am.

00:39:54.820 And he said, I said, do you talk to your girl, the girl you're dating about this?

00:40:00.660 And he goes, no, what?

00:40:02.020 No way.

00:40:02.860 I'd never bring it up.

00:40:05.180 I said, well, why not?

00:40:06.880 And he said, because I just assumed that we'd get into an argument and that would be the end of any further romance.

00:40:13.620 Right.

00:40:13.880 And I said, well, what about if you really got to know her well, like a year or two, and you were really intimate with her?

00:40:20.600 And then he said, well, I haven't had that long a relationship yet, but I really hope I could.

00:40:26.700 And he was almost like this deep sadness.

00:40:29.440 I really hope I could share what was in my heart about that.

00:40:34.100 And there's so many.

00:40:35.400 Yeah, what we're doing is what we're doing is awful.

00:40:37.820 It's it's absolutely awful.

00:40:40.040 I when I was talking to friends to all, I read part of his book on difference.

00:40:43.720 And there was this section that he cited from a female author who she said she threw up her hands in dismay because she couldn't stop her young boy from playing with guns.

00:40:54.020 She took everything that was even remotely resembling a gun out of the house, and then she caught him one day, you know, shooting the toothbrush at the cat.

00:41:03.480 Bang, bang, bang. 0.89

00:41:04.380 And instead of noticing that he had this male propensity to aim and shoot that was deeply rooted in her son, she was appalled to the core by his intractable masculinity and believed that her, what would you say,

00:41:20.640 the ideologically addled sense of what constituted masculine behavior was so morally admirable that it was perfectly fine to her to be disgusted by the fact that no matter how hard she oppressed her son, he was still a boy.

00:41:34.480 And all of that was couched in this moral terms.

00:41:37.020 And I thought, you witch, that's that's absolutely unforgivable to see that as such an intrinsic part of your boy's character.

00:41:46.000 And then to throw your hands up in moral dismay about exactly this patriarchal oppression and and the toxic masculinity and all of that.

00:41:57.720 It's and then the boy you talk to, too. 0.83

00:42:00.440 So he's damned if he does.

00:42:01.820 And he's damned if he doesn't.

00:42:03.660 And why is that?

00:42:04.780 I think here's a hypothesis for you.

00:42:07.340 So I don't know what I don't know what you make of this, but imagine that you have a woman who's never had a good relationship with a man in her life.

00:42:14.500 And maybe this is a consequence of disrupted familial structure, too.

00:42:18.280 Right.

00:42:18.540 So multigenerational consequence of disrupted familial structure.

00:42:22.040 And so she's and maybe the relationship she's had have not only been absent, but bad.

00:42:28.660 And so then that woman has a very difficult time discriminating between male competence and male power compulsion.

00:42:37.100 Right.

00:42:37.340 Because it's not easy to distinguish in authority power and competence from compulsion.

00:42:44.660 And so imagine you don't have much experience with that.

00:42:47.520 And so you're so terrified of anything that's male because you've had a pathological history with males.

00:42:52.320 Not that I'm attributing that to the women.

00:42:54.120 I'm saying this is part of this pattern of disruption is that you're primed to regard any display of masculine.

00:43:02.440 Will as.

00:43:05.680 Indistinguishable from oppression and compulsion.

00:43:08.300 And so then, well, what are you going to do?

00:43:09.800 Well, when your son manifests that, you're going to crush it because you think it's bad because you can't discriminate.

00:43:15.960 And that seems to me to be, well, another one of the consequences, let's say, of the multigenerational and cumulative consequences of fatherlessness.

00:43:25.240 Yeah.

00:43:25.720 And we see this so much.

00:43:27.000 Even with this young man that I was just talking to you about, he was he said in school, you know, he learned they learn.

00:43:33.940 And in California, it is the law, by the way, something called affirmative consent.

00:43:38.640 And in half the states of the United States, that's in the legislative process at the moment.

00:43:43.540 And affirmative consent means if you're in college, let's say mostly in college.

00:43:47.220 And if you if you ask a girl or woman on a date and she says yes, and you reach out and touch her hand and hold her hand before she says without asking her, may I hold your hand?

00:43:59.600 You have violated affirmative consent and you can be considered sued by her as being a sexual harasser.

00:44:06.100 So, right, right.

00:44:07.720 Well, that's exactly that.

00:44:09.020 Well, and that's why you brought up that's a cardinal example of the inability to distinguish between male will and oppression.

00:44:14.900 So let me let me ask you about that.

00:44:16.680 So I've been thinking about the violation of the principle of non-contradiction in our society, which I think is a hallmark of a looming insanity.

00:44:24.320 So here's what we're here's what college kids are asked to swallow now, as far as I can tell every single manifestation of sexual interest or sexual orientation of any conceivable type is to not only be tolerated, but to be celebrated and celebrated in some sense under compulsion and by force of law.

00:44:46.560 No discrimination whatsoever on the basis of sexual behavior or sexual preference.

00:44:51.860 OK, and simultaneously.

00:44:53.700 So no sexual interest is so.

00:44:58.220 Abnormal, let's say, in the technical sense that you can put up any barriers against its expression whatsoever, conceptually or otherwise.

00:45:06.240 And simultaneously, every single act of sexual interest between a young man and a woman is so dangerous and so pathological that you need something approximating contractual consent to engage in the simplest of simplest acts of initial physical intimacy.

00:45:25.580 So how the hell can both of those things be true at the same time?

00:45:28.340 Yeah. And this the feedback I'm getting from kids, young people this age is on the one hand, I'm being told this, you know, don't don't take an initiative unless you have, you know, ask for permission and and get and get a yes.

00:45:47.460 And then other times, girls are laughing at me for doing that. 0.98

00:45:52.000 And in real life, I don't see the problem with that nearly as much as the guys that are that are that are behaving that way.

00:46:01.060 They're they're thought of as wimps and or they don't take the initiatives at all because they're not they're not secure in the possibility that they will be rejected.

00:46:09.960 So they're invisible to the girls that they're interested in.

00:46:13.320 Right. Well, the girls can't distinguish between that deep inadequacy that emerges as a consequence of not being attended to enough. 1.00

00:46:24.440 And that would include not engaging enough in rough and tumble play and all the things that make you like a sophisticated dancer.

00:46:31.220 Let's say the girls cannot distinguish between that and the enforced awkwardness that comes with imposing an arbitrary imposition on the initial stages of physical intimacy. 0.99

00:46:41.240 How could they distinguish, especially when they're like 13 or 14?

00:46:45.660 And so we're definitely putting we're putting boys and girls in a completely impossible position.

00:46:50.860 And we're doing something really also awful, which is where we're saying to boys that you if you move too quickly, you're a harasser.

00:47:02.420 If you don't move quickly enough, you're a wimp or you'll never be seen.

00:47:05.680 But we're not saying to girls that what what to do, how to assert themselves.

00:47:12.900 We're not saying to girls is it is not just an option to share the risks of rejection.

00:47:19.580 It is an expectation on you to share the risks of rejection, not just the risks of rejection with the 20 percent of boys that are the superstars and really outstanding.

00:47:31.540 But with any boy you have an interest in that you're expect yourself to reach out.

00:47:39.300 Will you be rejected more?

00:47:40.920 Absolutely.

00:47:42.260 Anyone who takes risks in life will be rejected.

00:47:45.140 But our job is to prepare you not to prepare you as girls to take risks because there's there's no entrepreneur who's successful without taking risks.

00:47:55.740 There's no. And so your job is to take risks.

00:48:00.160 Now, what about if a boy reaches out to you and said and you don't really want and it's moving too quickly?

00:48:07.940 So your job is to say, no, not now.

00:48:13.480 But if I and maybe not ever, but if I change my mind, I'll let you know, because I now see that you're interested.

00:48:20.940 And so I don't have to worry about rejection, but don't keep trying to be sexual with me.

00:48:29.440 I'll take the responsibility for reaching out because feminists say, what is there about no that you don't understand? 1.00

00:48:36.640 Well, here's what there is about no that that is often not understood.

00:48:40.620 Is it no forever?

00:48:42.780 Not interested in me at all?

00:48:44.440 Is it no to maybe I say yes to another date?

00:48:47.140 Is it no until I have maybe some wine to relax me?

00:48:50.940 Is it no until I have some coffee to wake me up?

00:48:53.240 Is it no until we we play some music and I feel very intimate with you after the music is being played?

00:48:58.760 Should I turn the music up?

00:48:59.920 Should I turn the music down?

00:49:01.380 Oh, were you talking too much about yourself and not about me?

00:49:03.940 Were you talking too much about me and not about yourself?

00:49:06.620 All of these things are part of what happens in the right.

00:49:09.840 Right.

00:49:10.160 Well, part of that is, well, that's exactly it.

00:49:12.260 I mean, when you object to someone, you see this in fights between couples.

00:49:16.420 It's like, well, is this like a divorce fight or is this a like we talk for 10 minutes and make peace fight?

00:49:22.940 And or is it one of the intermediary stages along that pathway?

00:49:27.980 How serious is this?

00:49:29.060 And no has exactly that ambiguity.

00:49:31.460 Like, is this an outright rejection by every female in the world forever?

00:49:36.140 Is it a harbinger of that?

00:49:37.380 Because it could be.

00:49:38.680 And that is certainly the lot of many men because there are, I would say, what, 5% of men, maybe 10% of men are in the category of so undesirably, undesirable socially that they have virtually no chance whatsoever in the mating market.

00:49:54.800 There's a great documentary about that, by the way, documentary called Crumb that was done about probably 25 years ago that focuses on three brothers, one who became very famous, a very famous artist, all three extremely talented men, but all three of them toxically unpopular in high school to a degree almost unimaginable by anyone who was actually in a, you know, an acceptant peer group and who had at least some chance on the dating market.

00:50:22.200 One of the brothers committed suicide soon after the movie was finished documentary and the other was put in prison as a sexual offender.

00:50:30.620 So it's a very dark movie, but documentary, it's, it's about the best documentary I've ever seen on anything.

00:50:37.160 But if you're interested in the psychopathological fantasies of sexual offenders, that's definitely the documentary for you because they're extraordinarily well documented in a way that.

00:50:50.160 Well, that anyone with any sense would shy away from it's very dark stuff the the successful brother Robert Crumb, who is a very successful underground comic artist in the 1960s late 60s in San Francisco really started the whole underground comic movement.

00:51:09.160 He became quite famous as a consequence of his artistic work and then became quite popular with women and it was a it's he tells the story it was an absolute shock to him because he went from he wasn't no one he was way less than no one.

00:51:25.180 No one would have been a move up the ladder by a large margin, you know, he was in the detestable category, which is that's discussed right that's damn low on the hierarchy.

00:51:36.000 And then when he became successful that all switched on him and pretty much overnight and so part of the documentary which is done so unbelievably brilliantly is an exploration of that dynamic I've never seen anything like it so I would highly recommend that's called Crumb great documentary I've shown it like I show it like 20 years in a row in my personality class.

00:51:56.000 To illustrate the Freudian dynamic of Oedipal and smothering mothering essentially, and all the toxic consequences of that so anyways, yeah, back to back to, to no.

00:52:12.880 Yeah, well, no, and yes, those are very difficult things to negotiate.

00:52:15.960 I don't think there's anything more difficult to negotiate between a man and a woman than no and yes or between any two people that are in an intimate relationship or beginning one it's like what don't you understand well there's an infinite number of things I don't understand and what makes you so clear so sure you're so damn clear about your communication and so we have this perfect opportunity for teaching our daughters that you can say. 0.54

00:52:46.220 No, and say, no, and say I'll take responsibility for anything I am interested from this point on as opposed to you keeping on trying, you know, we're doing tongue kissing and the average girl knows that, you know, if if there's no no somewhere, they'll be having intercourse in about five, six, 10 minutes.

00:53:04.700 And for many girls or women that's too quick, so there so she pulls out the tongue, but then the pulling out of the tongue does that mean, you know, respect her?

00:53:15.540 the tongue is being pulled out and then when do you put the tongue back in when do you restart

00:53:19.920 the process again well it's also quite difficult if she's confused about it which she's likely to

00:53:25.820 be because it's not like that's not a maelstrom of conflicting motivations and emotions should i 0.96

00:53:32.160 continue how much do i like this boy am i going to be a slut is this something i'm going to enjoy 0.99

00:53:36.680 what are my what what are my girlfriends going to think is this the guy for me is this something 1.00

00:53:41.160 casual is casual sex okay um am i going to get pregnant can i can i take revenge on my absent 1.00

00:53:48.360 father by falling in love with this loser etc etc a hundredfold and all if if that wasn't complex we 0.99

00:53:56.860 wouldn't have any movies or novels it's unbelievably complex yes i just came back from mexico and 0.92

00:54:04.080 almost every woman that was reading a book was reading some type of romance novel and 0.98

00:54:10.340 one of them was a very strong feminist that i got into a conversation with and i sort of 1.00

00:54:14.940 challenged her on that and she goes i know but i still love it it was really yeah but but but that's

00:54:24.980 also not funny in my you know in some deep sense so so i read this book called uh billion wicked

00:54:31.900 thoughts that the google engineers had put together by analyzing patterns of pornography use among men and

00:54:39.500 women and it's really quite a brilliant book and uh because they're engineers it's it's really apolitical 1.00

00:54:45.600 they just looked at the data they are not political they just said what it said and they found that

00:54:50.840 men and women both used pornography uh with men it was all pictures and with women it was all written

00:54:56.800 it was all literary and they identified the five categories of porn star in these romance

00:55:04.680 in these literary romance pornography representations pirate vampire surgeon billionaire i don't i can

00:55:14.500 never remember the fifth but they're all it's the same pattern they identified it perfectly it's beauty

00:55:19.060 and the beast high status dangerous male tamed by attractive female and enticed into a reciprocal

00:55:29.680 relationship yes but with difficulty right and so and then the the the the sexual component of it is

00:55:36.940 mutual exploration yes and no tension conflict and the resolution of that but the guy but what's so

00:55:45.640 interesting about it and it's the same pattern in 50 shades of gray it's exactly the same thing

00:55:49.940 is that the guy isn't a pushover he's actually someone very forward in every way but capable of of being

00:56:02.900 restricted capable of responding to the imposition of boundaries and then also capable of establishing

00:56:09.680 relationship but the the fact of his willfulness in some sense is core to the sexual attractiveness

00:56:18.480 well that's no different than the manifestation of male ambition on the status hierarchy it's

00:56:23.320 exactly the same thing and why we have to lie about this is it's sickening to me and it's unbelievably

00:56:28.560 destructive both for men and women i mean it's not like the girls are benefiting from any of this

00:56:33.280 they're having catastrophic relationships in college you know in these you get these colleges now where

00:56:38.820 it's like 60 or 65 girls and you think well that's a hell of a good thing for the guys

00:56:46.280 because they have this plethora of women and it's not because first of all it's still 10 of the guys

00:56:52.540 and maybe they have carte blanche on the sexual front but all that does is treat teach them to be 0.92

00:56:58.040 narcissistic psychopaths because they can have a different one night stand every day of the week 0.66

00:57:02.720 and that's a hell of a training ground for establishing a permanent relationship and then

00:57:07.040 the other guys well they're in the same position that guys generally are which is they're chasing after

00:57:12.880 scarce resources and the girls they're completely frustrated because the high status guys have

00:57:19.580 zero interest in pursuing a long-term relationship and so that's a lovely situation i i heard some some

00:57:25.760 recent not so much data but some stories from people in universities where the girl to boy ratio is

00:57:33.680 climbing above 70 and they say the girls stop applying at about that point well it isn't only the

00:57:39.600 application to schools and the getting in schools which is of course creating a whole possibility and

00:57:44.760 in some cases actuality of affirmative action in favor of the boys now but the dropout rate among the

00:57:51.700 boys in college is much greater and so in the next few years it's predicted that the ratio of female to male

00:57:58.400 graduates will be two to one two female to one male and that creates this whole you know the the thing

00:58:06.380 that i was saying before about you know the women are not women who graduate from college generally 1.00

00:58:11.260 speaking want a man who's at least a college graduate um and so if if she's only half as likely to have 1.00

00:58:17.660 a college graduate around her and a lot of males are dropouts the average woman especially when a woman 1.00

00:58:23.160 starts looking for um the possibility of having a child and wanting a good father uh to be involved she

00:58:29.360 doesn't usually look in uh among the dropouts um and she and 66 percent of the people between 25 and 31

00:58:36.860 who um lives live back at home are male and she's not likely to go to um to back to go to bed with a guy 0.97

00:58:46.300 who lives in his his parents basement um and she's not likely to search unemployment lines in high school 0.50

00:58:53.200 dropouts 20 some odd percent of high school dropouts are unemployed for most of their 20s

00:58:59.660 and so this leaves a terrible market for for girls and this is one of the reasons i say we're all in

00:59:06.520 the same family boat and right right definitely when only one sex wins both sexes lose and unfortunately 0.98

00:59:13.660 yes it's really sad that we even have to say that because it's so bloody obvious it's like whatever you do

00:59:19.220 to boys you do to girls yes instantly and if you're not wise enough to see that well then you

00:59:24.980 should clue in and if you do see it you proceed nonetheless it's like yeah well we know what

00:59:29.740 you're up to nothing but trouble and and that is the huge um challenge with where feminism has been 1.00

00:59:37.060 going recently you know at least when i was on the board of now in new york city at least a portion

00:59:42.920 of feminism was saying um i am woman i am strong as a la helen ready and now it's mostly i am woman

00:59:50.240 i've been wronged and so we have this hashtag me too and i know a lot of women who have been able to 0.81

00:59:57.360 feel able to speak up as a result of the hashtag me too but having hashtag me too as a monologue rather

01:00:05.100 than having hashtag me too as a dialogue is really a crime because it makes women feel that there are you 1.00

01:00:10.880 that they must be right there's no response there's no male experience uh that of of him being

01:00:17.540 rejected by a woman or him uh have being in a divorce situation and the woman bad mouthing

01:00:22.500 uh him to the uh the child or uh there's no understanding that men who are going through

01:00:27.380 divorce are eight times as likely as their female counterparts to commit suicide um you know there's 0.98

01:00:32.820 there's just no understanding of that male experience and there's also no there's i've i've talked about

01:00:38.800 this several times and become very unpopular as a consequence but in today's chaotic world many of

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01:03:12.960 percent off plus a 10 senior or military discount one discount per household when i studied anti-social

01:03:18.920 behavior and particularly at mcgill um i studied female and male anti-social behavior and male anti-social

01:03:27.160 behavior tends to be much more physically violent and so most of the people who are imprisoned are male

01:03:32.320 mostly because we imprison violent offenders which is kind of interesting we don't necessarily

01:03:37.820 imprison white collar criminals even if they defraud like 60 000 people but you know a mugger well

01:03:45.060 we're going to lock them up and yeah i can understand that although not entirely because defrauding

01:03:51.560 60 000 people out of their pension isn't exactly nothing either but in any case it's almost all men in 0.99

01:03:57.420 prison and it's almost all violent offenders and so then you say well what's the female equivalent of

01:04:03.300 anti-social personality and that's a tough question because it's much more subtle but a lot of it is

01:04:10.520 reputation destruction and and exclusion mean girl syndrome and everyone understands that you can't 1.00

01:04:18.020 play with us for example that's a nice expression of female anti-social behavior and that reputation 1.00

01:04:23.780 destruction also scales really nicely on social media and so one of the things i think is happening

01:04:29.620 to our whole culture is that we're suffering from a radical influx of female type anti-social behavior 1.00

01:04:35.920 that's cancel culture that's reputation destruction and savaging and so but we can't have a conversation

01:04:41.860 about that because all the pathologies on the male side it's like no all the pathology isn't on the male

01:04:48.060 side plain and simple there's social pathologies that have a feminine orientation that would be the 1.00

01:04:53.700 infantilization of everything and then there's toxic femininity which is this tendency to derogate 0.99

01:05:00.280 into savage reputations and to escape scot-free in the aftermath of that and the use of manipulation

01:05:06.540 and innuendo and all of that very very difficult to cope with very difficult to put boundaries around

01:05:13.140 too so especially on social media so we and we tend to have very little empathy for the way these

01:05:20.740 behaviors have evolved over over the years you know women had to sort of have talk about men reputation

01:05:28.520 wise because um before birth control and when mores were extremely uh strict if a male wanted to be

01:05:35.680 sexual with a woman and maybe promised her uh that she would be he would be marrying her and she said 0.62

01:05:41.160 okay i could you know maybe we'll be married but then she talks to other women and she finds out from 1.00

01:05:45.920 eight or ten other women well wait a minute he's been said that to me he said that to me he said that to

01:05:49.660 Mary over there and then suddenly so that that will the thing that we call gossip was very much a

01:05:55.200 protective mechanism on the part of women to protect themselves from being becoming pregnant with

01:06:00.600 somebody that really uh was not at all interested in a long-term relationship and being a long-term

01:06:05.920 father conversely with with um guys and women in terms of the no with what no means no what no means

01:06:12.800 maybe what no means yes it was very helpful for women to be able to say no before birth control for

01:06:19.180 obvious reasons but even short of birth control uh she discovers how does a man handle rejection

01:06:25.380 does he um if if he if she says a a no and he stops right away and never tries again how will that

01:06:34.720 translate into him being a good salesperson what successful man have you ever seen or a woman have 0.98

01:06:40.640 you ever seen stopped at the no and didn't try again um and so she but on the other hand the way he

01:06:47.280 tried the manner in which he tried the respect he showed as he tried uh the the way the way he

01:06:53.900 manipulated his persistence in a positive or negative way those were things that gave her a great deal of

01:06:59.960 information about what type of father what type of um um breadwinner he would be yeah well and if she

01:07:06.640 puts obstacles in his way and frustrates him and he gets violent well then that's pretty good marker of

01:07:11.560 his inability to deal with let's say the frustration of a toddler precisely and and that is

01:07:17.040 um and those are all so i the the where i was going with that is that there's that we need to look at

01:07:25.200 the behaviors we castigate and um and have under an understanding of where they came from and why

01:07:33.820 and you were talking you're you're talking about oftentimes chimpanzees and different types of animals

01:07:38.540 well in all among all animals from insects right out of to humans um for the most part uh the insects

01:07:46.180 with a couple of exceptions the i'm sorry the the all the animals uh may seek males to reproduce with

01:07:53.380 that are alpha males and um they they have no interest in um the the the non-alpha males and you

01:08:00.780 see what the result of that is um among you know buck um um antelope uh the the the moment those males

01:08:08.640 and females get together uh she chooses the male that has the largest rack and but that rack is such 0.99

01:08:16.200 a burden on him that he has to get rid of it um immediately after the after intercourse uh otherwise

01:08:22.500 because the rack in order to develop that rack uh exhausts 30 percent of the minerals and nutrition

01:08:28.640 and calcium in in his system and if he doesn't immediately get rid of the rack um he's going to end up

01:08:34.160 having to uh probably die um if winter sets in before he gets rid of that and he doesn't have a

01:08:39.580 chance to replenish all his nutrients and what that amounts to is that here is the male that looked

01:08:46.580 the strongest the alpha male um and it was served a purpose from the female's point of view of being able

01:08:53.580 to to um to keep away um other people that wanted to have sex with her uh that that were not as strong

01:08:59.780 as he but it was really a very good example of men's weakness being their facade of strength

01:09:06.400 and whether it's saying i'm strong because i have my guns um or the the fellow that was that that wrote

01:09:14.800 me uh also from texas you know saying i i got my guns together i was you know going to do this mass

01:09:21.680 shooting um i'm going to be really um a strong man uh these are all these are all vulnerabilities and

01:09:29.000 these are masks the gun is the mask of vulnerability it's the expression of anger uh yeah also stunningly

01:09:37.160 unsophisticated you know one of the things you do with aggressive young boys so i don't remember if

01:09:44.020 we talked about this before but um there's a large branch of literature focusing on violent

01:09:52.000 two-year-olds so about five percent of two-year-olds uh males almost all males kick hit bite

01:10:00.660 and steal and so if you put them with other two-year-olds that's what they do most of them

01:10:07.040 are socialized out of that by the age of four the ones who aren't become unpopular with their peers and

01:10:13.280 then they get outcast and then they're alienated and then they're bullies and juvenile delinquents and 0.52

01:10:18.200 then they tend to be criminals and so it's basically career criminality that begins at the age of two

01:10:24.280 now the question is what happens to the two-year-olds who are aggressive who are socialized and the

01:10:30.700 freudian answer would be that that aggression is repressed but i don't buy that i think really what

01:10:36.280 happens is that if those boys are fortunate they have a sophisticated father or father surrogate

01:10:43.480 who helps them develop much more effective and sophisticated strategies for their competitive

01:10:51.220 dominance and that can be unbelievably useful then you can have the man who is the beast in beauty and

01:10:58.220 beast who's very capable and competent and competitive and willing to strive forward but also

01:11:06.040 sophisticated in his strategy choice and so the two-year-old the aggressive two-year-olds who are

01:11:11.400 socialized out of it they become they get popular by the age of four because they learn to play with

01:11:16.560 others and it's not because they're repressing it's because they're integrating and that should be the

01:11:22.200 model for us is it's the integration and so that's why i'm really never happy when i hear well we should

01:11:28.300 all play non-competitive games it's like first of all it's not obvious that that's a game by the way

01:11:34.220 and second says who right how about we regulate the expression of ambition and aggression in the

01:11:41.160 course of competitive games like a good coach does on the football field like what the hell's wrong

01:11:46.300 with that exactly why is that not the right model and like roughhousing does i mean right the father

01:11:52.920 that roughhouses and um and does boundary enforcement uh requires the child to um to think of his brother's

01:12:00.240 sister's needs and which is one of the reasons why roughhousing is statistically related to

01:12:05.080 roughhousing combined with boundary enforcement is statistically related to empathy because you're

01:12:11.120 requiring your child to understand that somebody else other than you has to be considered here you

01:12:17.600 can't stick your um your elbow in your brother or sister's face uh in order to win at the roughhousing

01:12:23.280 you have to know the difference between being assertive versus aggressive and it's only under the

01:12:27.600 activation of that and things like roughhousing uh where those lessons can be learned not just in

01:12:32.820 theory the mother's saying always be kind to people or always um that doesn't translate until you really

01:12:39.020 put it into practice and you yeah well the roughhousing is a really good example of that because

01:12:44.940 imagine what you're learning in when you're rough and tumble playing is first of all you learn

01:12:51.720 how much can i be bent twisted and hurt before the game isn't fun and that's not theoretical it's like

01:12:59.180 well you're going to get bumped around a bit you're going to get thrown into the air like there's actual

01:13:03.540 physical threat occurring but it can occur at a level that actually heightens the thrill of the game

01:13:11.160 and so of course most of the competitive games especially the physical ones run right on that edge so

01:13:17.340 it's like it's not no threat it's optimal threat and that's a really tough thing and then and then

01:13:22.900 you so you got to figure out how dangerous can this be so that the fun is optimized that's really tricky

01:13:28.720 and you negotiate that with your play partner and then well how far can i bend dad's arm or his finger or

01:13:36.140 his nose and and can i grab his mustache can i grab his beard can what can i do to the other person

01:13:43.120 that they're going to find provocative and teasy and fun but not painful and threatening same thing

01:13:50.220 you're doing when you're playing with a dog and all of that's deeply embodied right it's not it's not

01:13:55.900 conceptual it's it it actually constitutes the prerequisite for the conceptualization of something

01:14:02.260 like empathy i think the empathy emerges in part because well we're gonna we're gonna rough and tumble

01:14:07.740 play or we're gonna play football or or or soccer for that matter we're gonna be rough with each other

01:14:12.860 as much as we possibly can but we all want the game to continue yes and that that's the crucial

01:14:20.640 issue there is to to play in a manner that enables you to win but that also enables the game to continue

01:14:26.260 and you learn that in competitive games and that's where some very important lessons come in so when a dad

01:14:33.040 stops the game because the roughhousing has gone too far and somebody's gotten hurt or it looks like they

01:14:39.020 will get hurt and then then the children that are playing the rough doing the roughhousing with the

01:14:44.740 dad have to say all right if if if my roughhousing b is being stopped that means what i really want

01:14:51.420 immediately my immediate gratification which is to push my brother or sister aside is i have to learn

01:14:58.460 postpone gratification because i really want the roughhousing but that roughhousing is is going to be

01:15:04.020 over with if i don't consider somebody else's needs per my dad's um recognition the extension of that

01:15:10.840 into sexual behavior with women is quite obvious it's like there has to be a physical there has to 0.98

01:15:16.600 be physical contact but it has to be undertaken in a subtle enough manner so that it's going to continue

01:15:23.360 and so that's a way more sophisticated application of the same issue but it's on the same continuum that's

01:15:29.940 partly why people dance and partly that is too the women are checking out the men is like well 0.68

01:15:34.480 can we be reasonably close together in an in a manner highly suggestive of intimacy

01:15:40.560 and you're still able to control yourself in a socially acceptable manner it's like is there a

01:15:46.020 more direct test of your of your socialization history than that probably not absolutely and it is

01:15:54.260 and and that dance i mean you know the tango is a perfect expression of male-female relationships and 0.92

01:15:59.820 you know and and when we it it has to be a two-sided affair to happen but back on that

01:16:06.820 roughhousing issue the the the importance of what that child is learning is that postponed gratification

01:16:14.760 and that postponed gratification as we both know is the biggest predictor of success and failure or

01:16:19.740 failure in life and the kids that don't have that um tend to um to fail in the postponed gratification

01:16:28.260 area that that leads them to being depressed about their own abilities and ashamed like uh with

01:16:34.760 salvador ramos the mass shooter in texas not having graduated from high school that led him to feeling so

01:16:39.960 just ashamed of himself he um when his mother and he got into a fight grandmother and he got into a fight

01:16:45.300 about it she he shoots the grandmother um so people that do you know do not have that postponed

01:16:51.000 gratification uh and they don't have a way of uh of of being victorious in their playing in when

01:16:58.580 they're two years old like you were talking about i don't think it's a matter of repression i think it's

01:17:03.140 a matter of when you are able to play and get along with other kids and have the game you have the

01:17:08.820 capacity for expression uh and you don't have to worry about repression becomes a non-issue it was

01:17:15.160 yeah that's right yeah i think that's absolutely right i mean you know piaget pointed out quite

01:17:21.300 clearly when he analyzed the structure of iterable games and so uh and there's a morality that comes

01:17:27.480 out of that is that you have to regulate your behavior in accordance with the willingness of

01:17:32.240 others to voluntarily play with you and so that that spirit of voluntary play in some sense is a

01:17:38.500 marker for a sustainable reciprocal ethos and so and you also mean one of the things that i did with

01:17:46.260 my kids when they were little because we used to exchange jokes all the time and and and the rule

01:17:52.320 was you get to be funny but you don't but you can stay you stay on the fun end of funny because funny

01:17:58.380 can easily degenerate into teasing and it can become mean and what's really interesting about that is that

01:18:03.520 the fun part of that is right on the edge right it's right where i'm saying something to you that's

01:18:09.700 so provocative that it's almost too much but not quite that's where it's really funny and you can see

01:18:15.860 that as a really subtle testing of the boundary so my son was quite assertive when he as a young child

01:18:25.120 he he he was he was a kid he had his own will man he's really still like that as an adult and it was

01:18:32.580 very interesting to interact with him because he would come home say from daycare and he'd absorbed a

01:18:40.240 bunch of evil spirits at daycare and he'd come home and manifest all sorts of behavioral patterns that

01:18:46.080 we were just not putting up with and now and then he'd he'd push it too far for a couple of days and i'd get

01:18:52.720 together with my wife and we would we would negotiate it's like okay that kid's getting out of

01:18:57.600 control we're not gonna let him do anything out of the out of the proper bounds of propriety

01:19:05.320 whatsoever for like a week watch him like a hawk and we'd agree on that and every single time we did

01:19:12.680 that he liked both of us better yes and it was so interesting to watch and partly i realized to some

01:19:19.820 degree in retrospect is that that focused attention man they're from adults there is nothing more

01:19:25.640 valuable than that to a kid and they'll misbehave to evoke that boundary setting because it's so

01:19:31.400 utterly crucial for their development i wonder why kids will misbehave and to attract attention it's like

01:19:38.040 there's nothing they just like the school shooters there's nothing they want more than attention

01:19:43.120 it really it's it is amazing to me the degree to which the need for attention is is so dominant

01:19:50.300 among all of us and yeah um and many of us have learned to channel it and you and i have learned

01:19:56.300 to channel it in ways that you know that that um that that help others or we think help others and i

01:20:02.420 think believe some people would disagree yeah yeah we we delusionally believe that we help others

01:20:09.780 right right right right um the um but let's go to the teasing thing for a moment i i think one of

01:20:18.000 the differences between dad style parenting and mom style parenting is that when that dads will often

01:20:23.360 tease and moms will often feed and then the child will sometimes what if the child that has not been 0.94

01:20:28.860 teased much or at all before that is predominantly brought up usually by a mom who is much less

01:20:34.320 likely to tease when the dad teases the child will often cry and the mom will get feel that the dad is

01:20:42.320 being very insensitive because he made the child cry and you therefore don't know much about parenting

01:20:49.000 and how to not make the child cry but if and dads aren't very good at explaining that well when i tease

01:20:55.240 it's it's it's a way of like teasing is like at its best it's like having a vitamin in a fruit smoothie

01:21:02.460 um the the vitamin is the criticism and the fruit smoothie makes the criticism not more palatable

01:21:09.200 um by not tasting it so directly it's the wheatgrass does not you know sting your mouth um and so the uh

01:21:17.480 and so dads will often say you know well you something like oh well you got away with that one didn't you

01:21:22.800 or you are you sort of um um but you you um you lied to that little boy and um and he believed what 0.83

01:21:30.420 you said you um you know um uh that's that's great are you going to be a champion liar someday do you

01:21:36.000 want you think lying should be in the olympics um you know that type of thing and the boy will be able

01:21:41.740 or the girl will be able to pick up the fact that dad has noticed that she or he lies notices that lying

01:21:47.540 is not really being approved of um but at the at the same time um is not being yelled at and being

01:21:53.100 told you know you just lied you shouldn't lie right right well it's also a good way of developing

01:21:58.620 resilience it's like because you're going to be tested with frustration and disappointment constantly

01:22:05.280 in the social and natural world and so to prod a bit is to also build up resilience the same way

01:22:13.380 the immune system adapts to a certain level of pathogen in the environment you don't want a

01:22:17.920 pathogen free environment you want a pathogen representative environment and so by by what

01:22:25.760 would you say challenging your children on a variety of fronts emotional and physical you first of all

01:22:32.740 they get used to the fact that that can happen because it is definitely going to happen to them and

01:22:36.920 one of the things that's very interesting about bullies is uh dan always wrote a great book on

01:22:42.280 bullying uh i don't know if it's in print anymore bullying what we know and what we can do about it

01:22:46.740 very straightforward title he cut bullying rates in scandinavia by 50 by the way and he showed that

01:22:53.540 you know there's there's typical bullies but there's also typical bully victims and the bully victims

01:22:59.460 are typically selected by the bullies because what the bullies will do is throw out some teasing you know

01:23:06.220 one person after another and the the victim who responds with too much infantile behavior to the

01:23:13.240 teasing which might mean bursting into tears for example or running to a teacher then it's like well

01:23:19.140 now you're the target and so and so without that preparation of teasing and comedy and all of that then

01:23:27.440 you send your children unarmed out into the world to face well people who are going to be far worse

01:23:33.740 for them then you know the the little devil that's the glint in the father's eye when he says something

01:23:40.740 witty but with a barb in it yes so this is one of you were talking about this gentleman being from

01:23:46.740 scandinavia and uh when i when i was in denmark doing some speaking there was a um i i went to some

01:23:53.440 danish schools and they they do communication skills training in first second third grade where the bully

01:24:01.460 and the bullied will come off from you know not just the bully and the bullied um but you know the

01:24:06.600 kids in the playground will you know once a week or so uh talk about what happened on that playground

01:24:12.000 uh-huh and and the bullied person gets to share what happened from his or her perspective the bully

01:24:19.640 gets to share what happens from his or her from their perspective right right so they get to negotiate

01:24:25.540 well not only yes negotiate and also just see that what they've just done has hurt somebody else

01:24:33.520 right right right right yeah when my kids were little and one of them would tease the other

01:24:38.380 into tears let's say or i always made the the bully let's say look at the other child because one of the

01:24:46.860 things i noticed was that if they were on a little bullying binge and they made the other person cry

01:24:53.360 then they would avoid noticing yes and no no you look you look you look and you see what happened

01:25:00.000 and generally that would evoke that empathic response yeah one of the things that might be

01:25:05.920 interesting for people to hear is that well if you're a single mother you have a dearth of of positive 0.99

01:25:10.780 role male role models in your life for your son for your daughter what do you think might be done

01:25:15.740 about that that would be productive yeah um a number of things first is to understand understand

01:25:22.240 what dads do that is different from what moms do um and because when dads are appreciated for what

01:25:30.780 they do that appreciated for their teasing up to a point uh appreciated for their roughhousing up to a

01:25:37.820 point appreciated for their encouragement of kids to take risks up to a point and you're counterbalancing

01:25:44.300 well first you're letting the your dad know that that roughhousing leads to empathy that the uh

01:25:50.460 that the uh focus on um a good boundary leads to postponed gratification that leads to success that

01:25:57.100 leads to them feeling better about themselves so when you let a biological dad know that you need that

01:26:03.980 from him men are biologically programmed to respond to being needed uh when every when every generation had

01:26:11.340 its war and we told men we need you to be willing to die men were willing to die in the millions in

01:26:17.980 order to serve to do something to keep other people alive so just don't underestimate if you're a mom 0.76

01:26:24.220 listening to this don't underestimate how much dads how much we need to learn about what dads do and

01:26:31.580 the value of what they contribute so i gotta i want to add something to that that's practical too so

01:26:37.500 this is good for for for couples to know in general so when you're you got to have some sense first of

01:26:44.300 all imagine your mother and you you think well i'd like my son and my daughter to have a good

01:26:48.940 relationship with their father so now you got to think about well you want a good relationship you

01:26:53.820 want them to love each other you want them to play together you want them to communicate

01:26:57.740 okay so you kind of got that as a distant vision but now you're watching your husband and your kids

01:27:03.260 and now and then you're going to see something happening that really makes you pretty happy

01:27:07.820 that's a really good time to say hey you know what i just saw that and it made me really happy

01:27:13.740 we could have some more of that yes and that like even skinner bf skinner the animal behaviorist he

01:27:19.420 learned that the best way to train animals was to use reward not punishment or threat and it's a hell of

01:27:25.980 a skill to develop to watch your family members interact and then to see when they're doing something

01:27:32.380 that makes you think oh my god if we had that happening 10 times a day wouldn't this be a much

01:27:37.340 better household and then to say that and you can get a tremendous way with that so single mothers 1.00

01:27:43.900 women listening to this if you see your husband and your kids interacting together and and it's going

01:27:50.460 well and they're smiling they're laughing they're playing and it's going nicely you want to you want

01:27:56.060 to reward that and you definitely don't want to punish it unless you want it to disappear

01:28:01.100 and you know some distrust might emerge is is it okay if my husband's doing that it's like if

01:28:06.060 the kids are enjoying it you know that's not a bad marker absolutely and the as you know um jordan

01:28:14.300 i teach couples communication courses and one of the things that is really important is not is both

01:28:19.980 appreciating and also training that developing the discipline to take the that appreciation to a

01:28:27.820 deeper level so a man might say you know i love you're a great cook um and but when he says you

01:28:34.860 know i really love i really love the way you cook that turkey that begins to feel a little bit more

01:28:41.180 like i was really seen but right right that specificity right is that man that gravy you made

01:28:47.500 you know i noticed that you put just exactly the right amount of flour and it wasn't it was browned

01:28:52.060 perfectly and you brought it to the table heated and like it was spiced so well that specificity of

01:28:58.060 reward is that's an unbelievably powerful technique because it shows that you attended eh exactly and

01:29:04.220 you're saying is you know is that parsley sage rosemary the specificity of appreciation combined

01:29:10.380 with curiosity like you know right right how did you do it so well tell me more about it yeah show

01:29:16.460 me what you did yeah is there a way we could do more of that man that's a great thing that's a

01:29:21.980 great thing to sprinkle through your entire relationship yes and and sprinkle through let's

01:29:27.020 work with that that that that what you just said there is so important most couples they hear that in

01:29:32.380 a couple's communication workshop and they say oh that's really important very nice but then they

01:29:36.460 never go out and do it part of what i do with my couples is that is to work on the the subtitle of

01:29:43.260 the course is the art and discipline of love and almost right right almost nobody associates

01:29:49.820 discipline with love but you know doing this appreciation and three of them like my wife and i do

01:29:55.660 every wednesday night in our case um or um with with a routine doesn't leave the appreciations

01:30:03.580 coming to your partner when they at awake which is often what happens um and so this this um

01:30:10.940 this training to appreciate um and then doing it frequently and doing it systematically um this is

01:30:19.420 so much an important part of a couple yeah well it really works well with kids too in terms of

01:30:24.780 encouraging them so if you see your kid doing something you know like maybe they bring you a

01:30:29.660 picture to show you and you and you know you glance at you say well that's nice and that's the end of it

01:30:34.620 it's like yeah they came to show you that so maybe you take the picture and you say

01:30:40.140 was that a sun it's like you see you drew the rays there the rays look really good and well those

01:30:44.700 flowers look good and what were you trying to do with this and maybe you could put a chimney on you

01:30:48.780 did a real good job here and this part's particularly good and here's why like to do a differentiated

01:30:54.540 analysis of that well people love that especially if you can when my students used to write me essays a

01:31:01.020 lot of them especially the initial essays were just bloody awful like almost everything about

01:31:05.500 them was awful but now and then they'd throw in a sentence you know that was real it would just sort

01:31:11.180 of stand out like a diamond i'd circle it and say yeah more of this and then the next essay would be

01:31:17.820 like 30 that and then 60 that you know yes it really is amazing we are you know we have a part of

01:31:25.660 our brain is called the rcz rostral singlet zone and when and when we get approval uh that sends

01:31:32.140 dopamine to that part of our brain it is just amazing how much we are all um you know we are

01:31:38.220 all in need of that of that dopamine and it makes us feel so much more loved uh let me go back for a

01:31:43.660 second if i may to the what are the things a mom can do so let's say that there's that the mom does 1.00

01:31:49.660 not have a biological father that it is possible to bring in their in their life a lot of moms look out for 0.99

01:31:55.340 stepfathers but oftentimes particularly if they have daughters they are very the father behavior

01:32:03.820 combined with being a stepfather often makes the biological mom feel that the father does the

01:32:09.340 biological the stepfather does not have as much investment in protecting the child and so when the

01:32:15.980 mom sees that the child is um crying as a result of the roughhousing crying as a result of the teasing

01:32:22.140 or maybe uh fell um from too high a spot that the the father uh let them go to instead of seeing this

01:32:29.020 as a contribution to the children that the stepfather is bringing fears that the stepfather doesn't love

01:32:35.340 and have as much investment in the children and therefore the stepfather becomes a vice president

01:32:41.420 in the family as opposed to an equal um having an equal relationship and that can happen very subtly you

01:32:48.300 know and it's so interesting to watch couples do that like i've seen lots of mothers in particular 0.70

01:32:54.700 just viciously punish their husbands for interacting with their children so that that husband will take 1.00

01:33:00.220 some steps he'll he'll start to play and maybe he does it somewhat roughly and she'll just be in there

01:33:06.220 protecting the child from the father like right now and you do that like a hundred times and the game's

01:33:11.660 over you've permanently disrupted the relationship between the father and the child because you're also

01:33:17.100 broadcasting massive signals of distrust to the child it's like well your father's so dangerous

01:33:22.940 that we can't even let him play with you a little bit it's like not good and it doesn't allow the

01:33:27.820 father to develop any skills either that way and he ends up developing what i call the father's catch 22

01:33:33.740 he learns a lot to love the family by being away from the love of the family and earning more money

01:33:38.860 okay you know i will take that job you know selling product x um nationwide uh i'm really not needed around

01:33:45.020 here so much um but the one thing my wife does appreciate is my bringing in more income so we 0.97

01:33:50.060 can buy a better home and a better neighborhood a better school district okay i'm rewarded for that

01:33:54.460 i'm definitely not being rewarded for the playing that i'm doing and so a lot of dads that you know

01:33:59.420 in wanting that reward they see the one way that they're um they're they're um lovable and they don't

01:34:06.140 realize that you know the data shows that once a uh once a family has depending on where in the united

01:34:11.900 states they live they're earning between 50 000 and 75 000 a year um that that that what the

01:34:18.300 children need is more of dad's time not more attention yeah you bet or not more of dad's time

01:34:25.980 and so that and so that's important to remember but if let's say there's no stepfather and no biological

01:34:33.180 dad um it's very important for parents and the mother um to get the child involved with cub scouts

01:34:41.100 two years in cub scouts has shown um very good studies with control group that kids that do and

01:34:47.980 don't go to cub scouts um leading to children developing better character and i don't know

01:34:53.420 a single mother doesn't want the child to have better character uh to get them involved not just 0.98

01:34:58.460 in sports but in um in what i call the liberal arts of sports by liberal arts of sports i mean uh organized

01:35:05.980 sports really helps them to pay attention to somebody who is creating structure for them and

01:35:10.620 know what structure to do but it's also if they want to be an entrepreneur or an original thinker

01:35:15.980 it's pick up team sports is really helpful for that because you're saying okay are we are you

01:35:21.100 negotiating everything is right we're going to play full court we're going to play half court and

01:35:25.660 basketball uh who do i choose um last time that jordan and i play together i passed the ball to him and he

01:35:31.100 got a and he and he and he got the and he got the point okay i can pass that ball to him again i can

01:35:36.220 trust when he reaches out for it but i i threw that ball to bill and every time he missed okay um

01:35:42.060 and you know and what what's a foul um and you know is is a foul being pushed a little bit or a lot

01:35:48.700 um you know uh how how how am i exhausting myself quickly by running back and forth

01:35:53.980 uh uh in the in the court and so all these things become so many things that are unsupervised behavior

01:36:01.580 and the ability of people to sort of like gauge all the subtleties of like we were talking about with

01:36:07.740 what no means no what no means maybe all these subtleties are much more easily able to be picked

01:36:13.340 up from pickup team sports and because of so many of our fears as parents we've often been discouraging

01:36:19.900 our children from doing pickup team sports we haven't been willing to leave them at leave them

01:36:24.300 at the school and maybe maybe they do get into a fight at school um but it's important to allow them

01:36:30.220 to get into that fight and then process what were the red flags that that told you that this was a

01:36:35.900 this was a situation that might lead to a fight and protecting the also an opportunity to practice

01:36:41.580 reconciliation i mean one of the things dual is shown and this is very interesting in relationship to

01:36:47.260 this alpha idea and this is a good thing for the young men who are listening to really take note of

01:36:52.060 this dual has shown quite clearly that sometimes it's the smallest male chimp in the troop who's

01:36:57.340 the alpha and that's often a male who's very good at negotiating reciprocal relationships very good at

01:37:05.820 reconciliation post-conflict and often allied with a powerful female who's kin related to many of the

01:37:12.620 other chimps in the group and has powerful social standing dewald has shown very clearly that um if

01:37:18.700 a chimp uses pure physical power as a means of attaining alpha status that the troop is fractious

01:37:26.780 that his rule is short and that his end is brutal and that the alphas that are successful are the most

01:37:33.420 reciprocal individuals often in the entire troop yes it's all friendship coalition reconciliation

01:37:41.260 alliance building and that's and chimps have a patriarchal structure fundamentally a patriarchal 0.53

01:37:47.340 social structure so they're a good analog of the evil patriarchy in some real sense but

01:37:52.620 even in that even among the animal and animals the chimpanzees the mere expression of power is a

01:37:59.340 is a it's a unstable social strategy it's by no means optimal and i think that's very tightly

01:38:05.900 associated with our discussion earlier about delay of gratification and the spirit of play so you

01:38:11.900 have to integrate that aggression into an iterable and desirable social game a mating game and a

01:38:17.420 friendship game and a cooperation game and a competition game all of that that's not repression

01:38:23.260 and that's not that's not the eradication of toxic masculinity it's the socialization of ambition

01:38:30.620 absolutely crucially important we're going to talk a little bit about what might be done on the

01:38:34.540 legislative front as well yeah i um on a personal level i got a letter from chris sprowls about um

01:38:41.660 six months ago um saying that he had three chris sprowls was the speaker of the house of florida

01:38:47.740 saying that he had three sons and he did a lot of these things that we were talking about like the rough

01:38:52.300 housing and that helped him explain this to his wife and um and then he gave it to two of the the

01:38:57.980 republican democratic leaders in the relevant areas of legislation in the house of representatives of

01:39:04.300 florida and they drew up legislation um based on a need to bring more fathers into uh and developing

01:39:12.620 something that they called a fatherhood crisis and what was most um rewarding to me was that the

01:39:19.980 legislation passed the house with a 100 percent uh a unanimous vote on the part of both the democrats and

01:39:28.140 republicans hooray um and usually democrats are much more resistant to understanding the value of

01:39:33.740 dads and the family and so i was really proud of them for yeah yeah no kidding that's great we're doing

01:39:39.900 that yeah so what do you think that'll translate into practically well so far they've um allocated 75

01:39:47.900 million dollars to adult programs some of it is traditional stuff around child support um but others is um

01:39:54.700 stuff that isn't just child support by money um but child support by dad involvement which is the more

01:39:59.980 important type of right right support and to the degree that they um and there's a number of fathers

01:40:05.820 groups in florida uh that are really very um i imagine will be very much involved in the um in the helpful

01:40:12.940 execution of that um and so um what i would like to see in florida is the development of fatherhood programs

01:40:20.780 that tell men a you're needed b here's what you do differently see here's how you communicate with

01:40:29.420 your wife respectfully so that when she says it's not okay to climb the tree you're too young to the

01:40:35.580 child and the dad says oh don't be overprotective how to negotiate some way of like climbing that tree so

01:40:42.860 the child can climb up to a certain point but not beyond a certain point so dad can be under the

01:40:47.340 tree uh to be able to cushion a fall and not have a cell phone with them and so the mom and dad can

01:40:53.420 do what i call checks and balance parenting the data shows that the children that do best

01:40:58.940 have both a mom and dad that are actively involved and obviously the children that do the best have

01:41:05.820 a parents that end up staying together yeah getting divorced well they do opponent processing you know

01:41:11.420 because yes so if you want to move your hand smoothly this way the best way to do it is to

01:41:17.580 put your other hand there and push against it okay then you can make yeah yeah so that's an opponent

01:41:22.220 process and a lot of very fine-grained attunements and calibrations are opponent processes and so you

01:41:28.860 imagine how lenient versus um uh permissive should you be with the child and the answer is well it depends

01:41:37.500 on the child in the situation and so how do you negotiate that and the answer is well imagine you

01:41:42.620 have on the maternal side this more all-encompassing love that's forgiving but can move towards over

01:41:48.700 protectiveness and on the paternal side you have this forward encouragement that can be too pushy

01:41:54.380 and that has to be calibrated to the child how do you calibrate it and the answer is well the parents

01:41:59.420 negotiate and the woman pushes and the man pushes and they find a balance that optimizes that situation

01:42:05.900 for the child and then everybody gets what they need if if things if we're lucky and the challenge

01:42:12.620 there is each person negotiating often feels the person hearing that negotiation of well we could do

01:42:19.580 it differently in this way the person making the suggestion of the negotiation is often perceives

01:42:26.620 himself or herself as making a suggestion for a better connection with the children etc the person

01:42:33.500 hearing any suggestion of uh of a change in behavior or attitude that is expected or required of that

01:42:40.140 person perceives him or herself as being criticized right right right yeah that's a tough one to

01:42:45.100 negotiate and the single biggest uh flaw in the the single biggest achilles heel of human beings is our

01:42:51.820 inability to handle personal criticism without becoming defensive and well you know you can open up a

01:42:58.940 discussion i i did this a lot with my clinical clients because there were often things they

01:43:03.660 didn't want to discuss and i said well look here here's the here's the deal here we're going to open

01:43:09.100 up the discussion and layout a whole variety of options we are not going to start with the assumption

01:43:14.460 that any of these options are correct or that they're mandatory or that they're criticisms of you

01:43:22.300 and we're not going to proceed until we agree and that actually works quite nicely in familial

01:43:27.500 interactions like well let's have a talk we're not going to assume that you're right and i'm right

01:43:32.860 or or and we're not going to try to establish who's right we're going to open up the discussion space

01:43:37.900 we're going to evaluate all the different possibilities and then before we move forward we're going to agree

01:43:44.540 and i mean you need and it's so interesting to me too that you know we we're so bad at teaching

01:43:50.060 people to negotiate they have no idea how to do it and so they do hear any suggestion of something

01:43:55.500 different as a criticism it's that's just a non-starter right because if you're trying to

01:43:59.740 negotiate with your partner and every time you make a suggestion you're treated as if you're

01:44:05.260 disrupting their self-esteem in some fundamental way it's like it's too much effort yes i also

01:44:10.540 counseled people to make the discussion about the smallest thing possible it's part of that specificity

01:44:16.700 it's like well exactly what time do we want our child to go to bed precisely and why well you know

01:44:25.660 is it 7 30 is it 7 45 is it eight o'clock how much time do we need to spend for ourselves so that we

01:44:32.060 don't get irritated at the child what's appropriate developmentally let's get it precise and then we can

01:44:37.260 negotiate well exactly what is the routine going to be when we put the child to bed and what deviations

01:44:43.500 are we going to tolerate and how do we deal with the deviations jointly and that it's so nice for a

01:44:49.020 child to have a parental unit that is unified in relationship to boundary enforcement because

01:44:58.620 the children will play one child one parent against the other if they can because they're conniving little

01:45:03.580 devils and very very smart and and they're motivated to do that but it's such a relief to them to see that

01:45:10.300 the walls hold they'll test them and you think well it's mean to put up the walls it's like no it's

01:45:15.740 not paradise is a walled garden yes and the children need the walls because otherwise they face an infinite

01:45:23.580 expanse of complexity and so they'll test not because they don't want the walls but because they bloody well

01:45:29.740 want to know where they are yeah yeah the children without the boundary enforcement or they without those

01:45:34.940 walls they most children are are like they feel like they're walking in the dark on a platform that

01:45:41.820 they don't know where they're going to fall off um right right right that's a good metaphor but when

01:45:46.860 they see the walls they know they but it engenders much more security the process i use in the couples

01:45:53.340 workshop that i do is um is because i feel it's biologically unnatural to hear personal criticism from a

01:45:59.980 loved one without becoming defensive um i i i have people alter their natural biological space

01:46:07.660 first so that they um they they alter their consciousness into six mindsets that they say

01:46:14.140 for example like if i um when i call the love guarantee in which they say that i if i provide a

01:46:20.220 safe environment for all of your feelings your fears your anger uh without becoming defensive and and just

01:46:26.940 hold that space for you you'll feel safer with me and therefore more love from me and therefore more

01:46:33.180 love for me um and that's just yeah that that i ask people um to to say whether or not they would be

01:46:40.780 willing to um take a 50 risk of dying if their partner was about ready to be killed um but they um but

01:46:49.260 they knew with um that that with 100 certainty that they could save their life and about 95 of men say

01:46:56.700 that they will risk they would risk their life uh for their partner and understand that some of

01:47:01.180 these partners that come to the couples workshop many of them are very secure in their relationship

01:47:05.100 but others are thinking about getting a divorce or just breaking up or not you know that type of

01:47:09.820 thing so even among there 95 of the men are willing to take a 50 risk of dying in order to save their

01:47:17.980 partner's uh life if they know with 100 certainly to certainty they can do that and surprisingly 85 or so of

01:47:25.420 the women feel to say the same thing about the men and they're all making these statements on pieces

01:47:30.460 of yellow paper that their partner that they wrinkle throw throw into the um center of the room um and

01:47:36.700 their partner never discovers what they have what what their answer is but the first mindset then becomes

01:47:43.660 if i'm willing to die to give you life then i'm then i can listen to give you life right right right

01:47:50.380 and so and then when they've meditated themselves into that and other mindsets like that for about

01:47:56.300 a half hour but not much more than a half hour they're able to hear anything their partner says

01:48:02.780 in whatever way they say it including exaggerations and lies and yeah well you have to be willing to

01:48:09.580 let your partner go off the mark a bit because otherwise you can't have a discussion the other thing i i

01:48:14.860 recommend it to people which i think is very useful tell me what you think about this is i always

01:48:21.100 suggested that they specify their conditions for satisfaction it's like so let's say i have a beef

01:48:26.300 with you it's like okay well here's some things about what you did i don't like well that's pretty

01:48:32.140 generic and i don't know how to bind that it's like well is this a criticism of me right to the core or

01:48:37.340 what's going on it's like what do you want me to do like if i could redo that and you would be

01:48:44.140 satisfied with what i did what exactly would i have to do or say and i think you can even do that

01:48:50.620 you know maybe you respond badly to your wife's new outfit and she's disappointed that can be very subtle

01:48:57.460 and maybe you're you do that because you're you know you're just not that bright and so she's not happy

01:49:03.180 because you didn't respond well you can say what would have you liked to have heard me say and you

01:49:09.260 know the first response to that is well if i have to tell you then it doesn't mean anything or you 0.86

01:49:13.480 don't really care but the response to that is well assume i'm stupid and i need to do this 50 times 0.54

01:49:18.900 before i'll be even vaguely sophisticated at it and give me a break i'll i'll deliver what you want

01:49:25.020 badly in the hopes of being able to do it better in the future and that i think is a very effective

01:49:30.040 technique but it's combined with that willingness to let your partner do for you what you need

01:49:37.000 badly to begin with because then you get to learn at least you know i think that's that's an important

01:49:44.480 way and i also find that when um someone is just complaining and they know it's safe to complain

01:49:53.800 and they can say it in whatever tone of voice they want or exaggerated whatever whatever and they're

01:49:59.660 even if they incorporated that complaint a request for it to be done differently when they're finished

01:50:06.140 the process if they're really heard well and seen let them know what you've heard them say

01:50:11.740 and so on i have learned not to respond by telling my wife i will agree to do what she mentions in the

01:50:21.060 process because oftentimes when she feels adequately heard what she was asking for in that process is no

01:50:27.780 longer yeah well that well that's that's part of the calibration right it's like the person is

01:50:32.500 going to have to bitch and whine a lot to kind of cover the territory and one of the things you 1.00

01:50:37.640 discover this is certainly something you discover in clinical work is that people have to listen to

01:50:43.020 what they think and then they can discard like 80 percent of it's like oh well actually you know

01:50:48.280 some of that i just i didn't really mean or doesn't seem relevant anymore but you don't bloody well

01:50:53.160 know that when it's bubbling up inside you yes and so that's another reason to that's a difficult

01:50:58.280 thing to learn to forestall that sense of guilt and and criticism that comes in listening to the

01:51:05.680 other person express some negative emotion yeah but knowing that knowing that a fair bit of that

01:51:11.320 will dissipate in the telling is definitely a useful thing to a meta a meta strategy to learn

01:51:16.540 yeah so we should stop here pretty quick we've been going for almost two hours so i i thought maybe

01:51:22.580 one thing we should do maybe both of us separately if there's anybody out there any young guy for example

01:51:30.660 who's watching this who's been having vengeful fantasies and and who has been developing and

01:51:37.280 toying with fantasies of revenge and who is feeling isolated and lonesome and oppressed and isolated

01:51:43.920 and is starting to spin up fantasies of violence in revenge you know and you'll know that if you're

01:51:50.560 one of these people like find someone to talk to there's better ways you can deal with this and

01:51:59.000 you're young you're 16 you're 17 you don't have to be doomed you know you got your whole life ahead

01:52:04.200 of you and maybe just getting out of the place that you're in where you're unpopular might do it for

01:52:09.020 you you know you can move to somewhere else and be a new person there's all sorts of pathways in life

01:52:13.780 and so you don't have to explosively demonstrate your competence you know in a single vengeful

01:52:19.880 violent act there are better ways to deal with the world and you might have reason to be bitter and

01:52:25.220 vengeful but but there are better paths there are better paths forward so don't do it do what this

01:52:32.060 young man we talked about earlier did is have enough sense to reach out to somebody find someone a

01:52:37.400 teacher a principal someone a policeman if it has to be someone yes and and i really encourage every

01:52:46.320 school system to um to in the boy crisis book i have a suicide depression inventory and there is

01:52:55.720 every home every mass shooting is a suicide um and so i'd love to see that passed out to everyone

01:53:05.400 in school so that no one feels singled out for being told that you should take this inventory

01:53:10.960 uh so you so that the kids see that so for example with boys when boys say that three or four of the the

01:53:19.940 principles that that that tend to be very true for almost all boys thinking these things is feeling

01:53:26.060 that no one loves them that no one needs them there's no hope of that changing right and if they do tell

01:53:36.100 someone that respects them that that person will lose respect for them those are just four examples of

01:53:44.100 that and if they if these red flags of depression or suicide are happening um then we need to reach out

01:53:51.120 to these girls and boys girls for different reasons they're not going to shoot up the school

01:53:55.540 um but they may shoot up their own lives in a in an internal type of way and we don't want that for any of

01:54:01.780 our our girls or our boys yeah well it's not nothing to go and admit to someone that you know that you've

01:54:07.860 been having this sort of idea and that you're in that much trouble that takes a that takes a fair bit of

01:54:12.780 reorientation and moral courage but the alternative is so cataclysmic and so unnecessary absolutely

01:54:22.140 and and so appalling

01:54:23.980 and it's so important that if you're a legislator listening to this like what kentucky is doing

01:54:30.200 which is getting both making sure that after a divorce that both mothers and fathers have a 1.00

01:54:35.720 are are involved that equal shared parenting is one of the four things that is absolutely crucial

01:54:41.920 for children having the best opportunity right i want to chime in on that too that that i would

01:54:47.120 definitely second that motion is that we you know i thought for a long time maybe that that giving

01:54:53.160 women of very young children primary custody might be the best default solution but i don't believe 1.00

01:54:58.240 that anymore i think 50 50 custody should be the default and and we have to start with this whole

01:55:05.220 understanding of the importance of father right from the beginning we have we have in the culture at this

01:55:10.260 moment right to life versus a woman's body a woman's choice the discussion should be an understanding

01:55:16.800 that that almost all rights are rights intention um by um we have the the fetus has a right to live

01:55:24.400 the mother does have a right to choose but also the complete the right that's been completely left

01:55:30.320 out is the dad's right to have a choice the dad's right to be notified immediately when there's a

01:55:36.740 pregnancy about the fact that the mother's considering abortion and being able to sign a piece

01:55:41.460 of a legal document that's an affidavit saying i will take responsibility for this child for 18 years

01:55:49.320 to raise the child financially and emotionally and then instead of having it be a debate between

01:55:55.680 aborting the child and a mother's right of mother's choice we have a whole third option there

01:56:01.380 that that may allow that fetus to become a real live infant that's taken care of for 18 years

01:56:07.240 the mother and father both had did sex together they both have responsibilities um if for a woman to 1.00

01:56:14.780 take nine nine months of responsibility during pregnancy and a man to take eight to an exchange for

01:56:20.740 an 18 a year taking 18 a man taking 18 years of responsibility is um in in order to be able to

01:56:28.280 allow that child to live and be loved uh that's a fair trade-off but that's not even in the discussion

01:56:33.880 now so when we start when we start well we're gonna we're a long way in our society from being

01:56:38.960 able to have a mature discussion about sexuality that's for sure and about the consequences maybe

01:56:44.740 that's something we can try to do it on a future discussion absolutely so yeah all right so is there

01:56:52.120 anything else that we should close off with i mean that was a pretty comprehensive discussion and

01:56:57.080 hopefully people will find it useful yeah just um the importance of family dinner night and knowing

01:57:02.700 how to do that because the children that are listened to that are also required to listen to their

01:57:09.520 brothers their sisters and their parents are the children um in conjunction with um checks and

01:57:15.400 balance parenting uh that those those are the children that do the best and where if if people

01:57:21.500 want to read what you've written that that say specifically focuses on familial communication

01:57:26.440 patterns what what's the best book for them do you think the boy crisis is definitely the best and

01:57:31.820 the portions of the boy and i have to say that a lot of men in particular are saying to me that they

01:57:39.400 really like to hear it on audible um because i i read my part and i hope my voice allows some of the

01:57:47.760 what i'm saying to have another dimension to it right right right right right and john gray did a

01:57:52.880 terrific job on uh the guy who wrote men are from mars women are from venus he did a terrific job on

01:57:58.460 on um preventing and reversing adhd without using drugs okay okay well thank you very much for talking to

01:58:07.860 me again it's always appreciated it's always a pleasure it's really um i enjoy it and when i go back over

01:58:14.060 the um uh the the show i say oh yes he said that that was so interesting and so good it's really um

01:58:21.340 i learn a lot from the processes well and hopefully we'll get where one of the consequences of these

01:58:26.980 sorts of discussions is that we're going to decrease the probability of the sorts of terrible things that

01:58:31.100 we're talking about because that would be in everyone's interests clearly so thank you thank you again

01:58:36.420 absolutely thank you

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The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast - June 13, 2022

261. Avoiding School Shootings and the Boy Crisis ｜ Dr. Warren Farrell

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