The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast - 264. Beyond Order： Rule 2 - Imagine Who You Could Be, and Then Aim Single-Mindedly at That.

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00:00:26.020 Hey everyone, real quick before you skip, I want to talk to you about something serious and important.

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00:01:17.600 Rule two is, imagine who you could be, and then aim single-mindedly at that.

00:01:27.480 This paragraph is taken from a chapter subsection entitled,

00:01:31.760 Who are you, and who could you be?

00:01:35.540 An unforgettable story captures the essence of humanity,

00:01:39.500 and distills, communicates, and clarifies it,

00:01:42.600 bringing what we are, and what we should be, into focus.

00:01:46.160 It speaks to us, motivating the attention that inspires imitation.

00:01:52.340 We learn to see and act in the manner of the heroes of the stories that captivate us.

00:01:57.440 These stories call to capacities that lie deep within our nature,

00:02:01.200 but might still never develop without that call.

00:02:04.920 We are dormant adventurers, lovers, leaders, artists, and rebels,

00:02:09.440 but need to discover that we are all those things

00:02:12.320 by seeing the reflection of such patterns in dramatic and literary form.

00:02:17.500 That is part of being a creature that is part nature and part culture.

00:02:22.940 An unforgettable story advances our capacity to understand our behavior

00:02:27.260 beyond habit and expectation,

00:02:29.880 toward an imaginative and then verbalized understanding.

00:02:33.260 Such a story presents us in the most compelling manner with the ultimate adventure,

00:02:39.120 the divine romance, and the eternal battle between good and evil.

00:02:43.580 All this helps us clarify our understanding of moral and immoral attitude,

00:02:49.180 personal and social.

00:02:50.780 This can be seen everywhere, and always.

00:02:53.680 Question.

00:02:56.640 Who are you?

00:02:57.760 Or, at least, who could you be?

00:03:00.760 Answer.

00:03:01.900 Part of the eternal force that constantly confronts the terrible unknown, voluntarily.

00:03:07.960 Part of the eternal force that transcends naivety

00:03:10.960 and becomes dangerous enough in a controlled manner

00:03:14.420 to understand evil and beard it in its lair.

00:03:18.140 And part of the eternal force that faces chaos and turns it into productive order,

00:03:22.520 or that takes order that has become too restrictive,

00:03:26.580 reduces it to chaos, and renders it productive once again.

00:03:30.920 And all of this, being very difficult to understand consciously,

00:03:34.880 but vital to our survival,

00:03:36.780 is transmitted in the form of the stories that we cannot help but attend to.

00:03:41.280 And it is in this manner that we come to apprehend what is of value,

00:03:45.180 what we should aim at, and what we could be.

00:03:48.020 So chapter two is imagine who you could be,

00:03:52.200 and then aim single-mindedly at that.

00:03:54.500 And for me, after being on tour with you,

00:03:57.460 I think that's something that got into me through osmosis,

00:04:02.500 that I would be on stage,

00:04:04.260 and even though everyone was there for you,

00:04:06.060 I thought, hey, I'm part of this somehow.

00:04:09.140 This thing, somehow I became part of this.

00:04:12.020 And then once I realized that when the PA announcer said my name,

00:04:16.760 that those people knew me,

00:04:17.880 I thought, I'm me.

00:04:19.640 I'm the guy they're talking about.

00:04:20.980 Like, I'm doing something.

00:04:21.660 And then just that, it helped my aim.

00:04:25.900 It helped my aim.

00:04:27.440 And I wonder how many people just don't,

00:04:30.760 they don't know how to aim

00:04:32.160 because they have no experience like that,

00:04:34.320 something like that.

00:04:34.960 Well, that's part of what tradition is supposed to teach you

00:04:38.040 by presenting you with examples of great people of the past.

00:04:42.740 The lesson is not supposed to be exactly

00:04:45.100 bow down and worship these people.

00:04:47.100 It's be like them.

00:04:49.500 Be like them.

00:04:51.000 And you could be.

00:04:52.540 And I mean, that's really the goal of the humanities

00:04:54.500 when it's the humanities.

00:04:55.580 If it's not, if that's the goal,

00:04:57.600 then students will study the humanities.

00:04:59.380 As soon as that ceases to be the goal,

00:05:02.300 then there's nothing of value there.

00:05:06.080 I mean, great literature tells you,

00:05:07.900 it tells you the great story of good and evil, always.

00:05:11.400 It's good and evil against a background of chaos and order, always.

00:05:15.400 And the evil characters are there to be bad examples

00:05:19.260 and the good characters are there to be good examples.

00:05:21.320 Or you see the interplay of those forces within a single person.

00:05:24.640 And it's a reminder of who you could be.

00:05:29.900 And you can find out who you should be.

00:05:32.000 It's actually, and this is something quite mysterious, I believe.

00:05:36.220 And part of the proof, let's say,

00:05:39.040 that we exist in a world of value,

00:05:41.320 your conscience tells you who you should be.

00:05:44.440 Now, that doesn't mean that necessarily that it's infallible,

00:05:47.500 but people wrestle with their conscience.

00:05:50.480 You know, there isn't anyone,

00:05:51.880 I've never met anyone who is, you know,

00:05:54.880 I'm not, I'm,

00:05:56.840 narcissists accepted, let's say.

00:06:00.200 People are generally tormented by their conscience.

00:06:03.260 And the reason for that

00:06:04.740 is that they're not,

00:06:10.000 they're deviating from the path that is their destiny.

00:06:14.560 I mean, and if you don't think that,

00:06:16.120 well, then what do you think?

00:06:17.220 What do you think that conscience is?

00:06:19.240 I mean, I've asked my classes repeatedly,

00:06:21.040 do you have a little voice in your head

00:06:22.720 that tells you when you've done something wrong

00:06:24.840 or you're about to or a feeling?

00:06:26.680 And they all, they all immediately agree with that.

00:06:29.880 No one finds that a foreign concept.

00:06:31.700 And so if you don't know who you are,

00:06:33.780 your conscience will remind you when you're not,

00:06:36.200 or sorry, if you don't know who you could be,

00:06:37.680 your conscience will remind you when you deviate.

00:06:40.080 And then you can start to attend to that.

00:06:43.060 Think, well, look,

00:06:43.700 I'm actually ashamed when I do this.

00:06:48.160 I should stop.

00:06:49.900 Unless I want to be ashamed all the time,

00:06:51.940 it looks like I should stop.

00:06:53.700 And then maybe you stop doing that.

00:06:55.500 And then your conscience objects to something else.

00:06:58.180 And maybe you stop doing that.

00:06:59.560 And as that happens,

00:07:00.680 you start to develop a vision of who you could be.

00:07:03.440 And the chapter indicates it looks at symbolic representations.

00:07:11.840 It's an examination of a certain symbolic representation

00:07:14.780 of the ideal.

00:07:16.120 And so it's my attempt to assess tradition

00:07:20.060 for what it can tell us about

00:07:21.580 what the ideal human being might be like.

00:07:24.200 And the ideal human being is the person

00:07:26.920 who forthrightly upholds the traditions of the culture

00:07:31.420 and forges away into the unknown.

00:07:33.460 We went through that

00:07:34.500 and pulls new information in

00:07:39.000 and builds, rebuilds himself and the world.

00:07:42.040 And that's who you could be.

00:07:44.100 And now the difficulty comes in figuring out

00:07:48.120 how to do that within the confines of your own life.

00:07:50.200 So in some sense,

00:07:50.920 that's how to bring the divine to earth.

00:07:52.900 There's this divine pattern,

00:07:54.940 but it's general.

00:07:57.900 See, this is one of the mysterious things

00:07:59.520 about Christianity that's so remarkable

00:08:01.360 about it is that there's the Christ

00:08:06.100 that's eternal, the word of God, say.

00:08:08.980 So that's a representation of something

00:08:11.100 absolutely transcendent,

00:08:13.080 but it's married to the particulars

00:08:15.860 of one particular time and space.

00:08:18.060 And obviously, critics of Christianity

00:08:21.180 regard that as one of its major flaws,

00:08:24.960 you know, that there's this idea of God

00:08:27.100 who is a carpenter in some out-of-the-way place

00:08:30.660 in some out-of-the-way time.

00:08:33.360 But you're someone in an out-of-the-way place

00:08:37.740 at a particular time and place.

00:08:40.220 And for you, what that means is that

00:08:43.440 for you to make contact with the highest of values,

00:08:48.840 you have to bring that down to your particulars

00:08:52.160 and figure out how you do that.

00:08:54.460 It's going to be a way that no one else does it

00:08:56.320 because you're the only one that's you.

00:08:59.400 But you can aim at something, aim at something.

00:09:02.320 And the point of the chapter is

00:09:04.220 you aim at something and that will shape you

00:09:06.420 as you move towards it.

00:09:07.860 And then your aim will change.

00:09:09.140 You'll move.

00:09:09.840 But that doesn't matter.

00:09:11.400 It gets you going.

00:09:13.200 And you'll be molded across time

00:09:14.860 more and more into the person you could be.

00:09:17.580 Can you talk about that

00:09:18.820 just from a personal perspective

00:09:20.240 as someone that I've seen do it?

00:09:22.000 I mean, that's what I saw you do every night.

00:09:24.780 You would take your intellectual curiosity

00:09:29.280 to the end of where it would go.

00:09:30.900 Sometimes you would get off stage and say to me,

00:09:33.120 oh, you know, I took that as far as I could tonight.

00:09:36.040 And then the next night,

00:09:37.060 you would go a little bit further with it

00:09:38.680 or a little bit further.

00:09:39.640 And I knew there were moments

00:09:40.960 because we did so many shows.

00:09:42.180 I knew when you were a little past

00:09:44.140 where you would want to go.

00:09:45.160 And then I could see you come back.

00:09:47.020 But can you talk about what that was like for you

00:09:49.720 in terms of your life,

00:09:50.840 how you felt, how time felt,

00:09:52.820 how the relationship with the audience felt

00:09:54.980 when you're doing it right?

00:09:56.920 Because I feel like people don't know that.

00:09:58.520 When you're doing it right,

00:09:59.400 what does it feel like?

00:10:01.180 Well, to begin with,

00:10:03.520 and this happened when I was in graduate school,

00:10:05.300 I had a lot of bad habits.

00:10:06.980 I smoked like a pack of cigarettes a day

00:10:08.840 and I drank a lot.

00:10:11.060 I came from this little town in Northern Alberta

00:10:13.060 and like many little towns,

00:10:14.580 especially in Northern Canada,

00:10:16.080 alcohol overuse is de rigour.

00:10:20.980 You know, it's, it's,

00:10:22.000 and so I noticed when I was in my early 20s

00:10:27.480 that the only time I really regretted

00:10:31.720 what I had done was when I was drinking.

00:10:36.740 Now, it was also interfering with me writing

00:10:39.240 because I couldn't concentrate well enough

00:10:42.060 if I was hungover,

00:10:42.900 but I also couldn't really concentrate.

00:10:44.500 I couldn't,

00:10:45.020 I couldn't tolerate the emotional strain

00:10:48.220 of what I was writing about

00:10:49.460 when I was hungover.

00:10:50.420 It was too,

00:10:51.240 I couldn't handle being on the edge

00:10:52.880 because I destabilized my nervous system.

00:10:55.720 In any case,

00:10:56.560 I stopped drinking.

00:10:57.680 And the reason for that was,

00:10:58.960 well,

00:10:59.180 I decided I didn't want to be ashamed

00:11:01.500 of what I was doing anymore.

00:11:02.840 It seemed,

00:11:03.840 I thought,

00:11:04.360 well,

00:11:04.620 maybe I could not do things

00:11:06.360 that were shameful

00:11:07.100 and then see what my life was like.

00:11:09.480 So that,

00:11:10.120 that was sort of on the negative end,

00:11:11.860 the constraint end.

00:11:12.880 I think people get,

00:11:21.500 on the more positive end,

00:11:23.160 people get deeply involved

00:11:24.660 in what they're doing

00:11:25.680 if they're in the right place

00:11:27.500 in the right time.

00:11:28.240 So that you,

00:11:29.040 I would say you can tell

00:11:30.340 this is the idea of heaven on earth

00:11:32.140 to some degree.

00:11:33.380 When time stops,

00:11:34.840 when you're not aware

00:11:35.700 of the duration of time,

00:11:37.600 when you're so engaged

00:11:38.700 with what you're doing

00:11:39.500 that you're not aware

00:11:40.440 of the duration of time,

00:11:41.700 then you've got

00:11:45.340 the forces of chaos

00:11:46.400 and order balanced properly.

00:11:49.180 You're not stultified and bored.

00:11:51.240 That's an excess of order.

00:11:53.280 Everything's too predictable.

00:11:54.820 You're not overwhelmed.

00:11:56.980 You're dealing with,

00:11:58.400 it's like,

00:11:58.860 it's like,

00:11:59.440 you're playing tennis

00:12:00.660 at the peak of your game.

00:12:01.900 That's partly what people experience

00:12:03.340 when they're great athletes

00:12:04.280 when they play.

00:12:05.080 The zone, yeah.

00:12:05.740 And they're always stretching themselves

00:12:07.240 to their limit.

00:12:08.460 You can tell that

00:12:09.180 if you watch a gymnast,

00:12:10.340 for example,

00:12:10.820 who has a brilliant performance,

00:12:12.440 they've stretched themselves

00:12:13.540 beyond their domain of competence

00:12:15.700 during the performance.

00:12:17.740 And that's what makes everybody

00:12:18.880 leap to their feet.

00:12:20.520 That's the incarnation

00:12:22.200 given embodiment

00:12:24.540 right there in front of you

00:12:26.040 for some moments.

00:12:27.320 And everyone cheers that on.

00:12:29.980 Do you think it's weird

00:12:30.760 how it becomes a fleeting moment

00:12:32.460 in a way?

00:12:33.160 Like,

00:12:33.500 I know,

00:12:34.900 I know what you're saying is true.

00:12:37.100 When I'm doing

00:12:38.100 what I'm supposed to be doing

00:12:39.520 and I'm on my game

00:12:40.820 and my thoughts are right

00:12:43.300 and straight,

00:12:44.060 time just moves.

00:12:45.980 And then I go,

00:12:46.660 whoa,

00:12:46.840 a month passed.

00:12:47.720 A month passed.

00:12:48.720 And I was good that whole time.

00:12:50.140 And I did right that whole time.

00:12:51.780 And I was happier.

00:12:52.720 And my relationship with David

00:12:54.380 or whoever else

00:12:55.120 is better in that time.

00:12:57.140 But that it becomes fleeting

00:12:58.980 in that suddenly

00:12:59.820 you could have a great month

00:13:00.920 and then suddenly

00:13:01.600 something happens,

00:13:03.520 chaos returns.

00:13:04.240 Like it's that

00:13:05.080 we almost forget that moment.

00:13:06.760 You can't,

00:13:07.060 like you can't hold it.

00:13:09.240 Well,

00:13:09.600 it requires a lot of,

00:13:11.200 it requires even

00:13:12.100 to some degree

00:13:12.780 some good fortune

00:13:13.640 to maintain.

00:13:14.440 I certainly haven't been able

00:13:15.460 to do that

00:13:15.920 while I was ill.

00:13:17.940 You know,

00:13:18.160 and time,

00:13:19.480 one of the consequences

00:13:21.220 of my illness,

00:13:23.140 whatever it was

00:13:24.540 or is,

00:13:25.580 was time dilation.

00:13:27.240 Like days lasted weeks.

00:13:28.880 It seemed like minutes

00:13:29.900 lasted hours.

00:13:31.120 And I mean that literally.

00:13:32.440 And that was terrible.

00:13:35.380 The weight of time.

00:13:36.640 It's the weight

00:13:37.200 of brute mortality.

00:13:39.220 It's the weight

00:13:40.100 of self-consciousness.

00:13:42.100 And you escape that

00:13:43.740 immersed properly.

00:13:46.480 So,

00:13:47.920 and that second chapter

00:13:49.400 is a pretty practical chapter.

00:13:50.940 It's like,

00:13:51.340 well,

00:13:51.480 if you're not

00:13:52.180 who you want to be,

00:13:53.840 then think about

00:13:54.980 how you could be better.

00:13:57.140 Take a chance,

00:13:58.240 aim at that,

00:13:59.000 work at it

00:13:59.600 and see what happens.

00:14:01.520 So,

00:14:02.640 so that's,

00:14:03.100 and that's a disciplinary routine,

00:14:04.760 I would say.

00:14:05.820 Yeah.

00:14:06.060 And I takes you out

00:14:06.780 of your current order.

00:14:07.880 One of the sections

00:14:08.740 of your book

00:14:09.800 that I really loved,

00:14:11.460 it was chapter two,

00:14:12.220 where you get into alchemy

00:14:13.560 and you get into,

00:14:14.660 you know,

00:14:14.940 a discussion of,

00:14:16.340 it was one of the richest

00:14:17.500 chapters for me.

00:14:18.420 Helen Lewis said,

00:14:19.240 I sounded like

00:14:19.880 a stoned undergraduate.

00:14:22.500 Well,

00:14:23.060 I must like stoned

00:14:23.960 undergraduate.

00:14:24.360 It was so interesting,

00:14:24.840 because this is,

00:14:25.900 she wrote this review

00:14:26.940 in the Atlantic

00:14:27.600 and I was talking about,

00:14:30.720 sorry,

00:14:31.060 I'll let you get back

00:14:31.760 to this right away,

00:14:32.460 but she was talking about,

00:14:34.080 I commented on this,

00:14:35.820 the snitch in Harry Potter,

00:14:37.860 because I found

00:14:39.180 that it's a very old symbol.

00:14:40.520 That's a really old symbol.

00:14:41.820 It shocked me to death

00:14:42.960 that she used it.

00:14:44.080 I couldn't believe

00:14:44.780 she used it

00:14:45.460 because it's really obscure,

00:14:47.440 this symbol.

00:14:48.160 And so I talk about it

00:14:49.160 in the book

00:14:49.600 and she,

00:14:50.740 you know,

00:14:50.900 that's what she dismissed

00:14:52.060 as the ravings

00:14:53.140 of a,

00:14:53.900 you know,

00:14:54.600 stoned undergraduate.

00:14:55.820 But then I thought,

00:14:56.720 well,

00:14:57.380 look,

00:14:59.000 Rowling is richer

00:15:00.440 than the Queen. 0.86

00:15:02.360 She came from nothing.

00:15:04.640 She produced this empire.

00:15:06.840 It's an absolute empire.

00:15:08.840 Books that were 600 pages long

00:15:11.400 that she could read

00:15:12.440 to children in stadiums.

00:15:14.420 A whole string of movies

00:15:16.000 that dominated

00:15:16.980 the entertainment landscape

00:15:18.260 for like six years.

00:15:19.820 It was a,

00:15:20.240 it was a cultural,

00:15:22.160 a global cultural phenomenon.

00:15:24.360 It's like,

00:15:25.340 well,

00:15:26.020 don't you think

00:15:26.600 that's worth looking into?

00:15:28.280 That's what makes you

00:15:29.320 a stoned undergraduate?

00:15:30.580 It's,

00:15:31.300 or are you so clueless

00:15:32.540 that you can't see

00:15:33.400 that when something

00:15:34.380 like that happens,

00:15:35.320 there's a mystery.

00:15:36.380 It's why in the world

00:15:37.320 would the story

00:15:38.160 of a magical orphan

00:15:40.220 become a multi-billion dollar,

00:15:43.440 decades long,

00:15:44.660 global cultural phenomenon?

00:15:47.280 Well,

00:15:47.620 if you're interested

00:15:48.880 in culture,

00:15:49.640 if you're interested

00:15:50.580 in anything

00:15:51.260 besides narrow politics,

00:15:52.580 you'd think

00:15:53.080 that that would be a,

00:15:54.800 you'd think

00:15:56.240 that would be

00:15:56.680 worthy of investigation.

00:15:59.420 It's not easy

00:16:00.260 to see these things

00:16:01.360 sometimes

00:16:01.740 for the mystery

00:16:02.500 that they are.

00:16:03.560 No doubt.

00:16:04.480 So,

00:16:05.000 and I think

00:16:05.440 it's what you say

00:16:06.080 about stories.

00:16:07.080 Stories can be true stories.

00:16:08.760 The story of Harry Potter

00:16:10.100 and the snitch

00:16:10.700 is a true story

00:16:11.580 because it's in resonance

00:16:12.760 with a real idea,

00:16:14.480 something that's

00:16:15.160 in the collective consciousness,

00:16:16.640 something that's

00:16:17.780 in our primordial psyche

00:16:19.560 in a way.

00:16:20.300 And so,

00:16:20.520 when we hear it,

00:16:21.200 otherwise it would be

00:16:22.320 collective.

00:16:23.200 Exactly.

00:16:23.600 We wouldn't all enjoy it.

00:16:25.360 And look,

00:16:25.660 we can go to those movies.

00:16:26.760 We suspend disbelief

00:16:28.360 willingly,

00:16:30.120 instantly,

00:16:30.580 and we get immersed

00:16:31.880 in the story.

00:16:32.700 That's magic.

00:16:33.800 That's magic.

00:16:34.700 What's going on?

00:16:35.860 It's worthy

00:16:36.480 of investigation.

00:16:37.920 So,

00:16:38.240 anyways,

00:16:38.840 I sort of sidetracked that.

00:16:41.200 Well,

00:16:41.380 that's actually

00:16:41.900 exactly where I was going.

00:16:43.180 So,

00:16:43.380 I'm going to read

00:16:43.740 this section

00:16:44.720 and you're talking

00:16:45.360 about the snitch

00:16:46.540 as the alchemical symbol

00:16:48.880 of the round chaos.

00:16:50.640 And you say this,

00:16:51.880 the seeker is the person

00:16:52.960 who is playing the game

00:16:54.140 that everyone else

00:16:55.080 is playing

00:16:55.660 and who is a disciplined

00:16:57.220 expert at that game,

00:16:58.580 but who is also playing

00:17:00.040 an additional

00:17:00.700 higher order game.

00:17:02.180 The pursuit of what

00:17:03.420 is of primary significance.

00:17:05.420 The snitch,

00:17:06.220 like the round chaos,

00:17:07.640 can therefore be considered

00:17:08.960 the container

00:17:09.760 of that primary significance.

00:17:12.040 So,

00:17:12.260 for those of us

00:17:12.740 who don't know

00:17:13.140 the Harry Potter movie,

00:17:14.560 there's a game

00:17:15.060 called Quidditch

00:17:15.740 and it's basically

00:17:16.420 like lacrosse

00:17:17.220 and you try to get

00:17:17.800 the ball in the goal,

00:17:18.840 but there's a seeker

00:17:19.720 who actually is seeking

00:17:20.680 this magical golden orb

00:17:22.220 which has alchemical

00:17:23.540 kind of roots

00:17:24.640 in the round chaos.

00:17:25.960 And if they seek that,

00:17:26.780 the game is over

00:17:27.520 and it's been given

00:17:28.520 that,

00:17:29.020 you know,

00:17:29.480 additional,

00:17:29.940 as you say,

00:17:30.340 primary significance.

00:17:31.780 And this concept

00:17:32.780 was really,

00:17:33.720 really interesting to me

00:17:35.380 to have it unpacked

00:17:36.260 because I didn't,

00:17:37.060 I watched some Harry Potter

00:17:38.560 and I saw it

00:17:39.140 and I saw the game.

00:17:40.000 That,

00:17:40.520 of course,

00:17:40.780 didn't occur to me.

00:17:41.660 It was just like,

00:17:42.140 oh,

00:17:42.300 this is the rules

00:17:42.880 to this game.

00:17:43.860 But then I realized

00:17:44.740 in my own life,

00:17:46.380 there's the game

00:17:47.080 that I'm playing.

00:17:47.740 Oh,

00:17:47.820 I'm running on it

00:17:48.600 and I'm doing these things.

00:17:49.980 But what is my snitch?

00:17:51.140 What is my round chaos?

00:17:52.360 What is that ultimate

00:17:53.580 higher order potential

00:17:54.980 that I'm seeking?

00:17:56.500 And so,

00:17:56.920 my question was,

00:17:58.460 have you thought about

00:17:59.340 for you?

00:17:59.960 Because we can obviously

00:18:00.960 see the game

00:18:02.680 being played

00:18:03.360 as far as

00:18:04.160 the normal Quidditch game.

00:18:05.540 But for you,

00:18:06.280 personally,

00:18:07.200 what is your,

00:18:07.980 what is your snitch?

00:18:09.040 What is your round chaos

00:18:10.420 that you're seeking

00:18:11.180 the game

00:18:11.860 within the game

00:18:13.040 that you're playing

00:18:13.800 at large?

00:18:14.600 Well,

00:18:14.760 what's always attracted

00:18:15.800 my attention

00:18:16.540 predominantly,

00:18:19.260 so,

00:18:19.500 so let me unpack

00:18:20.920 some things here.

00:18:21.800 Sure.

00:18:21.900 some of the interpretation

00:18:25.360 of that symbol,

00:18:26.340 a lot of it came

00:18:27.040 from my reading of Jung

00:18:28.100 because he's the only person

00:18:29.300 that I've ever read

00:18:30.300 who seems to know

00:18:32.620 about such things,

00:18:34.060 even knows that they exist.

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00:21:23.880 Jung believed that

00:21:25.380 your interest,

00:21:29.040 which is a relatively

00:21:29.780 involuntary phenomenon,

00:21:31.380 right?

00:21:31.540 you get interested in things

00:21:32.700 but you can't make yourself

00:21:35.800 interested in something.

00:21:37.360 The interest grabs you

00:21:39.040 and grasps your attention.

00:21:42.760 And so Jung thought of that

00:21:44.460 as a deeply-seated

00:21:45.460 biological mechanism,

00:21:46.860 which it obviously is.

00:21:48.340 It's a neurological mechanism

00:21:49.620 of some sort

00:21:50.380 that governs,

00:21:52.540 it possesses,

00:21:53.900 it has the capacity

00:21:54.840 to possess your voluntary attention.

00:21:56.600 Just like hunger does.

00:21:57.680 When you get hungry,

00:21:58.520 you're typing away,

00:21:59.440 writing a book or something,

00:22:00.460 and you get hungry,

00:22:01.760 hunger starts to grab

00:22:02.960 your attention.

00:22:03.900 Well, look,

00:22:04.400 you're interested in some things

00:22:05.640 and you're not interested

00:22:06.720 in others.

00:22:07.440 Well, why?

00:22:08.620 Well,

00:22:09.540 some of that has to do

00:22:10.600 with your choice,

00:22:11.400 but not that much.

00:22:13.060 A lot of it has to do

00:22:14.220 with who you are

00:22:15.500 in the deepest sense.

00:22:17.500 And Jung believed

00:22:18.400 that you were likely

00:22:20.880 to become interested

00:22:21.740 in things that

00:22:22.540 furthered your development,

00:22:26.020 furthered your psychological development,

00:22:28.180 made you more

00:22:29.080 and more competent.

00:22:30.200 So, for example,

00:22:30.840 you might get interested,

00:22:31.920 you might really come

00:22:32.680 to admire someone

00:22:33.740 and so what they do

00:22:34.700 grabs your interest.

00:22:36.280 And that happens

00:22:36.960 with children quite a lot

00:22:38.040 and they get interested

00:22:39.300 in kids

00:22:40.080 who are slightly ahead

00:22:41.420 of them

00:22:41.760 in the developmental curve

00:22:42.960 and then they mimic them.

00:22:44.680 And so,

00:22:45.020 the interest is something

00:22:46.360 that grabs you

00:22:47.280 to move you forward

00:22:48.740 on the developmental curve.

00:22:51.220 And so,

00:22:51.960 it's the manifestation

00:22:53.900 of your potential

00:22:55.160 higher self

00:22:56.160 in the present.

00:22:57.760 And Jung described

00:22:58.480 that as the self.

00:22:59.600 The self was,

00:23:00.480 in his view,

00:23:01.300 the totality of your being.

00:23:03.060 It's not definable.

00:23:04.860 It includes you

00:23:05.780 in the future.

00:23:06.840 And you are,

00:23:07.560 you are,

00:23:08.260 in some sense,

00:23:08.980 something that's coming

00:23:10.020 to be into the future.

00:23:12.180 Hopefully,

00:23:12.800 to be more than you are.

00:23:14.020 Although,

00:23:14.400 you know,

00:23:14.620 not always

00:23:15.200 because we also degenerate.

00:23:17.080 In any case,

00:23:17.800 your interest

00:23:18.460 pulls you along

00:23:20.100 on a particular

00:23:20.640 developmental pathway.

00:23:21.660 I've always been

00:23:23.380 gripped,

00:23:24.580 in some sense,

00:23:25.280 by things that are

00:23:26.100 very,

00:23:26.560 very dark.

00:23:29.500 And,

00:23:30.160 most of what's

00:23:32.780 by pathology

00:23:34.260 of one sort or another,

00:23:35.660 which is,

00:23:36.020 of course,

00:23:36.240 partly why I'm a

00:23:36.860 clinical psychologist,

00:23:38.000 you know.

00:23:38.260 But I wanted to remediate it.

00:23:39.840 I wanted to help.

00:23:41.640 But,

00:23:41.940 but it was,

00:23:42.960 it was the compulsion

00:23:44.360 to investigate

00:23:45.220 the darkest

00:23:46.000 of darkness.

00:23:47.240 And whether

00:23:48.320 that's been good

00:23:49.000 for me or not,

00:23:49.780 well,

00:23:49.980 that's a,

00:23:50.420 that's a,

00:23:50.980 that's a different question.

00:23:52.140 I suppose it has been

00:23:53.180 extremely good

00:23:53.960 in some ways.

00:23:54.560 And it's been,

00:23:55.640 it's been complicated.

00:23:56.760 We could certainly say that.

00:23:58.280 But,

00:23:58.740 but then more,

00:24:00.920 I wanted to figure out

00:24:02.300 what,

00:24:02.860 what,

00:24:03.240 what would protect us

00:24:04.280 from,

00:24:04.720 from that darkness.

00:24:06.440 And I guess it was

00:24:07.520 because I was so shocked,

00:24:09.480 existentially shocked,

00:24:11.540 when I first encountered

00:24:13.980 writings that pertain

00:24:15.780 to the Holocaust 0.94

00:24:16.380 into other genocidal acts

00:24:18.900 of that sort.

00:24:19.440 And I was always interested

00:24:20.380 in that for some reason

00:24:21.460 from a psychological perspective.

00:24:24.280 It's like,

00:24:24.700 what compelled people

00:24:26.760 to do that?

00:24:27.860 And how can we not

00:24:29.020 do it again?

00:24:30.160 And that,

00:24:33.280 so,

00:24:33.720 so anyways,

00:24:34.560 anything that,

00:24:35.460 that focused on that

00:24:36.940 grabbed my interest.

00:24:38.720 That's why I read

00:24:39.760 Jung extensively

00:24:42.040 and Nietzsche

00:24:42.840 and Dostoevsky

00:24:44.160 and Solzhenitsyn.

00:24:45.100 Those are the people

00:24:45.780 I ran across,

00:24:46.600 others as well,

00:24:47.560 that,

00:24:48.020 who seemed to have

00:24:49.680 some answers

00:24:50.340 as far as I could tell.

00:24:51.600 And,

00:24:52.420 so that's what it's been

00:24:54.440 for me.

00:24:55.620 Yeah,

00:24:56.340 yeah.

00:24:56.980 I don't,

00:24:57.320 and I don't know why.

00:24:58.260 It might be my proclivity

00:24:59.420 towards depression.

00:25:00.800 I really have no,

00:25:01.840 I,

00:25:01.960 you know,

00:25:02.260 I'm a creative person

00:25:03.540 by temperament

00:25:04.260 and I also have this

00:25:05.900 depressive

00:25:06.420 illness.

00:25:09.960 Maybe it's the consequence

00:25:11.100 of those two.

00:25:12.280 I don't know.

00:25:13.300 Who knows,

00:25:14.040 right?

00:25:14.280 Who knows what,

00:25:15.200 what,

00:25:15.480 what pulls you forward?

00:25:17.300 the ancients,

00:25:18.580 the ancients would 0.99

00:25:19.240 typically externalize

00:25:20.500 these forces,

00:25:21.200 you know,

00:25:21.900 when they couldn't

00:25:22.560 understand it.

00:25:23.080 And you talk about that

00:25:23.880 with the god Mercury.

00:25:25.000 The god Mercury

00:25:25.660 was the one that

00:25:26.620 drew you to these 0.76

00:25:27.780 different things.

00:25:29.200 Yeah,

00:25:29.480 he's got wings

00:25:30.460 and he flitters

00:25:31.080 and it's,

00:25:31.700 that's what your

00:25:32.060 attention does.

00:25:32.760 It pulls,

00:25:33.480 it's like in Up,

00:25:34.540 that Pixar movie.

00:25:36.180 Every time there's

00:25:36.720 a squirrel,

00:25:37.380 the dog,

00:25:37.980 that's their snitch.

00:25:40.740 That's the grip

00:25:41.700 of instinctual forces.

00:25:43.060 It's very comical,

00:25:44.000 but,

00:25:44.740 but it's,

00:25:45.640 and see,

00:25:46.080 in human beings,

00:25:46.780 I think it's

00:25:47.200 unbelievably sophisticated

00:25:48.380 because I do believe

00:25:50.320 that we're compelled

00:25:51.100 to follow a line

00:25:52.340 that leads to

00:25:53.360 our further development

00:25:54.240 and I do think

00:25:55.000 that that involves

00:25:56.000 mimicry of the hero,

00:25:57.560 for example.

00:25:59.220 The hero,

00:26:00.940 psychologically speaking,

00:26:01.900 is that figure

00:26:03.480 which represents

00:26:04.360 a potential stage

00:26:06.640 of development for you

00:26:07.700 and you'll find your hero

00:26:09.140 because you'll admire

00:26:10.080 something or someone

00:26:11.640 and why is that?

00:26:14.000 Well,

00:26:14.180 something's,

00:26:15.080 well,

00:26:15.660 I gave you the best

00:26:17.100 explanation for that

00:26:17.940 that I can.

00:26:18.500 That's,

00:26:18.860 that's the future you

00:26:20.400 in some sense

00:26:21.840 manifesting itself

00:26:22.900 in the present

00:26:23.700 saying here's where

00:26:24.940 you could go.

00:26:26.240 Yeah.

00:26:27.140 And that's the instinct

00:26:28.020 for growth.

00:26:29.280 Another aspect

00:26:30.360 that they externalized

00:26:31.520 was the idea

00:26:32.080 of the daemon

00:26:32.680 which is almost

00:26:33.960 like the,

00:26:34.620 the mercurial impulse

00:26:36.600 that's taken

00:26:38.000 and stretched out

00:26:39.000 for a long time.

00:26:39.840 It's something

00:26:40.320 that's continually

00:26:41.040 drawing you

00:26:42.040 towards some

00:26:42.820 potential realization

00:26:44.100 of what you're

00:26:45.300 capable of

00:26:46.020 and they put that

00:26:46.680 again in this

00:26:47.620 kind of demigod

00:26:48.940 landscape

00:26:49.460 but of course

00:26:50.180 that was just

00:26:50.940 their way

00:26:51.280 of understanding

00:26:51.900 things.

00:26:52.120 It also makes

00:26:53.420 a tremendous

00:26:53.900 amount of sense

00:26:54.760 like to make

00:26:56.040 rage a god

00:26:59.180 like Mars.

00:27:01.180 Well,

00:27:01.440 yes.

00:27:02.140 Why?

00:27:02.600 Well,

00:27:02.920 it's immortal.

00:27:05.080 I mean,

00:27:05.320 rage will be here

00:27:06.400 long after you're gone.

00:27:07.660 You're definitely

00:27:09.020 its pawn

00:27:09.940 at times.

00:27:12.080 You know,

00:27:12.280 it's not obvious

00:27:12.920 who's in control

00:27:13.720 when you're enraged.

00:27:15.620 Yeah.

00:27:15.980 In fact,

00:27:16.560 at some levels

00:27:17.840 of rage

00:27:18.240 that can even

00:27:18.780 be a legal defense

00:27:19.980 because we recognize

00:27:21.720 that you can be

00:27:22.560 out of your head.

00:27:23.760 Your normal 0.87

00:27:24.300 personality

00:27:24.840 isn't in control

00:27:25.840 and really powerful

00:27:27.780 motivational forces

00:27:28.820 have that

00:27:29.700 transcendent

00:27:31.540 reality.

00:27:33.000 rage is older

00:27:34.940 than human beings.

00:27:36.480 It's really,

00:27:37.660 really old

00:27:38.440 and it can have

00:27:40.300 you in its grip.

00:27:41.020 Sexual impulse

00:27:42.140 is the same way.

00:27:43.360 Hunger,

00:27:44.200 all of these things

00:27:45.200 are unbelievably

00:27:46.400 powerful forces

00:27:47.520 and they don't

00:27:48.920 just operate

00:27:49.540 on the primordial

00:27:50.420 level as far

00:27:51.100 as I'm concerned.

00:27:51.900 There are

00:27:52.640 sophisticated

00:27:53.340 gods of motivation

00:27:55.140 and we

00:27:56.820 are possessed

00:27:59.540 by them

00:28:00.020 when we do

00:28:00.540 such things

00:28:01.100 as go to movies.

00:28:03.160 We don't notice

00:28:04.240 what the hell

00:28:04.860 are we doing 0.62

00:28:05.400 watching this movie?

00:28:07.060 Why are we

00:28:07.700 entertained by it?

00:28:09.080 Why does it

00:28:09.660 grip our interest?

00:28:11.280 We don't know.

00:28:12.100 We don't even

00:28:12.520 question it.

00:28:13.200 It's like,

00:28:13.540 well,

00:28:13.640 it's entertaining.

00:28:14.420 It's fun.

00:28:15.100 It's interesting.

00:28:16.180 If it's interesting,

00:28:17.000 you don't have to

00:28:17.520 justify it.

00:28:18.420 Then you think,

00:28:19.660 right?

00:28:20.080 Well,

00:28:20.220 that's interesting

00:28:21.300 in and of itself.

00:28:22.180 If it's interesting,

00:28:23.180 you don't justify it.

00:28:25.060 And then someone

00:28:25.540 can tap you on the head

00:28:26.380 and say,

00:28:26.700 look what you're doing

00:28:27.440 and you think,

00:28:28.120 oh yeah,

00:28:28.520 that's kind of odd

00:28:29.400 that I'm doing that. 0.95

00:28:30.300 What the hell

00:28:30.680 am I doing? 0.66

00:28:31.440 Standing in line

00:28:32.260 for three days

00:28:32.880 to see Star Wars

00:28:33.880 when I'm an

00:28:34.680 atheistic engineer.

00:28:36.700 What's going on here?

00:28:38.000 Oh,

00:28:38.380 look at that.

00:28:38.920 It's a religious impulse.

00:28:41.780 And I don't have

00:28:43.060 a religion

00:28:43.480 and so this is

00:28:44.240 filling the gap

00:28:44.920 and that's why

00:28:45.460 I go to Star Wars

00:28:46.340 conventions

00:28:46.840 and I'm possessed

00:28:49.400 by something

00:28:50.040 that I haven't

00:28:51.240 pursued.

00:28:53.600 One of the things

00:28:54.560 that you wrote

00:28:55.040 was really powerful

00:28:56.520 for me to read

00:28:57.200 because to me,

00:28:58.060 I think it described

00:28:58.940 my snitch,

00:29:00.000 my round chaos,

00:29:01.000 that thing

00:29:01.480 that I'm seeking

00:29:02.080 underneath the games

00:29:03.680 that I'm playing

00:29:04.320 and so I'm going

00:29:05.000 to read this

00:29:05.480 little snippet here.

00:29:07.220 Who could you be?

00:29:08.640 You could be all

00:29:09.520 that a man

00:29:10.140 or woman might be. 0.99

00:29:11.520 You could be

00:29:11.800 the newest avatar

00:29:12.680 in your own unique

00:29:13.860 manner

00:29:14.220 of the great

00:29:14.960 ancestral heroes

00:29:16.000 of the past.

00:29:17.280 What is the upper

00:29:18.040 limit to that?

00:29:19.100 We do not know.

00:29:20.380 Our religious structures

00:29:21.420 hint at it.

00:29:22.740 How would someone

00:29:23.600 who determined

00:29:24.360 to take full responsibility

00:29:25.980 for the tragedy

00:29:27.020 and malevolence

00:29:27.940 of the world

00:29:28.660 manifest itself?

00:29:30.480 The ultimate question

00:29:31.540 of man

00:29:32.100 is not who we are

00:29:33.520 but who we could be.

00:29:36.600 That's it.

00:29:37.380 I read that

00:29:38.500 and I was like,

00:29:38.920 yep, that's it.

00:29:40.260 There's the snitch

00:29:41.000 with its wings

00:29:41.700 and its golden,

00:29:42.680 you know,

00:29:43.220 mercurious allure

00:29:44.420 that I'm really chasing

00:29:46.720 underneath all of this

00:29:47.900 and I enjoy

00:29:48.440 all these other things

00:29:49.400 but...

00:29:49.880 Who could you be?

00:29:51.380 Exactly.

00:29:51.780 You see that in children.

00:29:53.140 I watch little children

00:29:54.160 play

00:29:54.820 and

00:29:55.600 what they're doing,

00:29:57.880 you know,

00:29:58.180 they're attempting

00:29:59.680 to grow forward

00:30:00.800 but they toy

00:30:01.980 with identities.

00:30:04.980 I'm...

00:30:05.540 My little granddaughter,

00:30:06.980 I wrote about her

00:30:07.640 in this book too.

00:30:09.280 It's so funny

00:30:10.040 watching her.

00:30:11.560 She had Pocahontas, 1.00

00:30:13.120 the Disney movie

00:30:13.800 and she had a Pocahontas doll

00:30:15.580 and she watched that movie

00:30:16.540 a number of times

00:30:17.560 and then for...

00:30:19.300 Well, it's been a year now.

00:30:20.540 She's only three and a half

00:30:21.600 for a whole year.

00:30:22.740 She has two names,

00:30:23.720 Scarlet and Ellie

00:30:24.780 and one's her middle name

00:30:27.940 but she's called

00:30:29.300 one or the other

00:30:30.000 and seems to be

00:30:32.060 perfectly comfortable

00:30:32.800 with both.

00:30:34.760 If you ask her

00:30:35.860 if she's Ellie,

00:30:36.620 she'll say yes

00:30:37.420 and if you ask her

00:30:38.680 if she's Scarlet,

00:30:39.460 she'll say yes

00:30:40.180 but if you ask her

00:30:41.500 if she's Pocahontas, 1.00

00:30:42.780 she'll also say yes

00:30:44.180 and then if you ask her

00:30:45.580 if she is Scarlet,

00:30:47.340 Ellie or Pocahontas, 1.00

00:30:49.300 she'll say she's Pocahontas 1.00

00:30:51.000 and she's been

00:30:52.100 insisting on that

00:30:53.640 for a whole year

00:30:54.880 and so she's playing

00:30:57.720 out this role.

00:30:59.580 I don't know how much

00:31:00.460 of her imagination

00:31:01.100 is devoted to it

00:31:02.360 but enough

00:31:03.020 for this...

00:31:04.160 Like that's...

00:31:05.020 If you're...

00:31:05.580 How old are you?

00:31:06.460 40 something?

00:31:07.200 40.

00:31:07.440 Just turned 40.

00:31:08.080 Yeah, okay.

00:31:08.940 So, you know,

00:31:09.860 imagine that you had

00:31:10.920 a fictional identity

00:31:12.060 for 15 years.

00:31:13.320 That's approximately

00:31:14.260 the same relative

00:31:15.940 length of time

00:31:16.940 and the kids,

00:31:19.740 you know,

00:31:19.980 they weave up

00:31:21.420 a fantasy world

00:31:22.400 and then they play out

00:31:23.880 an identity in that

00:31:25.000 and then they weave out

00:31:26.440 another fantasy world

00:31:27.380 and they play out

00:31:28.100 an identity with that

00:31:29.020 and they shape

00:31:30.000 that identity

00:31:30.760 by their interactions

00:31:32.320 with other children

00:31:33.140 and adults

00:31:33.880 and hopefully

00:31:34.700 they find an identity

00:31:35.700 that suits them

00:31:36.580 that other people

00:31:37.380 also accept

00:31:38.220 because your identity

00:31:39.740 has to be something

00:31:40.640 that other people accept

00:31:41.680 or it isn't going

00:31:42.300 to work for you

00:31:43.320 but that's all part

00:31:45.100 of this exploration

00:31:46.040 of who they could be.

00:31:48.420 You know,

00:31:48.640 it's...

00:31:48.940 The play is,

00:31:50.200 in fact,

00:31:50.800 the exercising

00:31:52.720 of that realm

00:31:53.960 of possibilities

00:31:54.820 and so a good father,

00:31:56.800 a good parent

00:31:57.380 for that matter

00:31:58.020 but I think this,

00:31:59.180 I think,

00:31:59.740 at least as an archetypally

00:32:00.960 paternal role,

00:32:02.280 puts a border of security

00:32:03.840 around the child,

00:32:05.440 you know,

00:32:05.620 and the mother might be 0.98

00:32:06.480 inside that border of security

00:32:07.760 when she has young children

00:32:09.220 and play can take place there

00:32:12.000 and the play

00:32:12.920 is the investigation

00:32:14.760 of multiple identities

00:32:16.760 with the hope

00:32:17.900 of finding one

00:32:19.080 that is functional

00:32:20.580 that is also socially desired

00:32:22.600 because those things

00:32:23.900 can't be dissociated.

00:32:25.540 One of the reasons

00:32:26.160 I think that

00:32:26.800 the identity politics

00:32:28.020 has bothered me so much,

00:32:29.600 speaking of snitches,

00:32:30.920 you know,

00:32:31.200 it's bothered me.

00:32:32.140 It's like,

00:32:32.420 this bothers me

00:32:33.280 and I've only recently realized

00:32:35.200 that some of it

00:32:36.520 had to do with

00:32:37.220 what I saw

00:32:37.840 as limitations

00:32:38.440 on free speech

00:32:39.500 which is,

00:32:39.980 I have to say

00:32:40.640 the words that,

00:32:41.860 you know,

00:32:42.360 some authority

00:32:43.080 or some population

00:32:44.740 demands that I say

00:32:46.480 which I don't like

00:32:47.640 but there's something else too

00:32:50.360 which is that

00:32:50.980 it's based on

00:32:52.720 a very misleading theory

00:32:53.960 of identity.

00:32:55.280 Your identity

00:32:56.200 is not

00:32:57.160 just

00:32:57.880 how you feel

00:32:59.720 about yourself

00:33:00.380 at this moment

00:33:01.180 and you can't

00:33:02.460 impose that

00:33:03.020 on other people

00:33:03.660 because they don't

00:33:04.380 know how to

00:33:05.080 deal with that.

00:33:07.560 Like,

00:33:07.900 even if they wanted to

00:33:09.040 they wouldn't know

00:33:09.660 the rules of the game.

00:33:10.760 You have to negotiate

00:33:11.760 your identity

00:33:12.360 with other people

00:33:13.100 and so then you have to

00:33:14.260 think of identity

00:33:15.500 as something

00:33:16.600 that's negotiated

00:33:17.380 with other people

00:33:18.200 and so

00:33:19.380 if you

00:33:19.840 if you have

00:33:20.740 an implicit theory

00:33:21.600 of identity

00:33:22.080 like the one

00:33:22.740 that seems to be

00:33:23.480 increasingly dominating

00:33:24.760 the cultural landscape

00:33:26.300 which is identity

00:33:27.460 is something

00:33:28.280 that's only subjectively

00:33:29.620 determined

00:33:30.100 and can also

00:33:30.880 change from

00:33:31.800 moment to moment

00:33:32.560 then you're misleading

00:33:34.620 people as they develop

00:33:36.400 because they come up

00:33:37.320 with a very

00:33:37.920 unsophisticated notion

00:33:39.240 of what identity is

00:33:40.500 and that's not good

00:33:42.020 because

00:33:42.340 that's a

00:33:43.220 that's core

00:33:44.260 and like

00:33:45.860 part of your identity

00:33:47.260 is your value

00:33:48.260 to other people

00:33:49.100 that's a huge part of it

00:33:50.560 and that's not subjective

00:33:52.340 that's

00:33:52.860 other people

00:33:53.480 make that decision.

00:33:55.100 Yeah

00:33:55.220 and you talk about that

00:33:57.100 in I think it's

00:33:57.980 chapter three

00:33:58.600 where you say

00:33:59.200 that's one of the ways

00:34:00.360 we keep our sanity

00:34:01.280 is talking to other people

00:34:03.480 and the interaction

00:34:04.420 with our community

00:34:06.080 and and all of these

00:34:07.460 other things

00:34:07.900 that isolate us

00:34:08.720 more and more

00:34:09.260 to a to a single

00:34:10.940 subjective perspective

00:34:12.260 is going to lead

00:34:13.440 to a certain madness.

00:34:14.760 It is definitely

00:34:15.900 well exactly

00:34:17.220 well I tried to impress

00:34:19.140 upon some of the

00:34:20.080 trans activists

00:34:21.240 that were

00:34:21.900 after me

00:34:23.100 when I first

00:34:23.820 made some public

00:34:24.960 statements

00:34:25.360 I said look

00:34:25.940 I don't think

00:34:27.320 I didn't say it

00:34:28.380 this eloquently

00:34:29.040 unfortunately

00:34:29.820 what I

00:34:31.200 what I

00:34:31.580 what I

00:34:31.980 would have liked

00:34:32.940 to have said

00:34:33.580 now at least

00:34:34.360 was

00:34:34.540 it isn't

00:34:35.680 obvious to me

00:34:36.580 at all

00:34:36.940 that your theory

00:34:37.960 of identity

00:34:38.780 is going to serve

00:34:40.660 the function

00:34:41.440 that you assume

00:34:42.400 it is.

00:34:43.180 It's not psychologically

00:34:44.760 sophisticated enough

00:34:45.940 it's not sociologically

00:34:47.220 sophisticated enough

00:34:48.320 you can't insist

00:34:49.920 that other people

00:34:50.840 play a game

00:34:51.760 that they don't know

00:34:53.160 how to play

00:34:53.880 especially when you

00:34:55.140 also don't know

00:34:55.980 how to play it

00:34:56.600 except to say

00:34:57.480 that it exists

00:34:58.440 so

00:34:59.600 and this sanity

00:35:02.500 issue is

00:35:03.160 you know

00:35:03.880 a lot of us

00:35:04.620 is externalized

00:35:05.760 because we're

00:35:06.400 such social creatures

00:35:07.540 and everyone

00:35:09.300 has weaknesses

00:35:10.160 you know

00:35:10.860 you're going to

00:35:11.960 degenerate

00:35:13.180 along your weakest

00:35:14.700 axis

00:35:15.840 and if you're

00:35:17.140 fort and you won't

00:35:17.900 be able to control

00:35:18.460 yourself

00:35:18.860 because some of

00:35:19.600 your weakness

00:35:20.240 will be precisely

00:35:21.780 that inability

00:35:22.580 to control yourself

00:35:23.520 on that axis

00:35:24.180 like maybe

00:35:24.680 maybe you have

00:35:25.400 a biological

00:35:25.960 predisposition

00:35:26.860 to alcoholism

00:35:27.700 and you know

00:35:28.420 you have three

00:35:28.980 shots of vodka

00:35:29.800 in 20 minutes

00:35:30.480 and you're like

00:35:31.020 on top of the world

00:35:32.080 you know

00:35:32.940 there are people

00:35:34.040 like that

00:35:34.500 they often have

00:35:35.260 extensive family

00:35:36.120 histories of alcoholism

00:35:37.240 it's a biological

00:35:38.220 phenomenon

00:35:39.740 you can tell

00:35:41.120 if you're like that

00:35:41.740 if it's really

00:35:42.260 difficult for you

00:35:42.960 to stop drinking

00:35:43.820 once you start

00:35:44.760 it's a real

00:35:45.680 warning sign

00:35:46.420 and means alcohol

00:35:47.340 is a great drug

00:35:48.280 for you

00:35:48.800 subjectively speaking

00:35:50.240 but you know

00:35:51.520 hopefully

00:35:52.260 when you drink

00:35:53.800 too much

00:35:54.560 other people

00:35:55.580 are going to

00:35:55.940 start telling you

00:35:56.820 it's like

00:35:57.380 no you're

00:35:58.000 and that's actually

00:35:59.500 how you start

00:36:00.320 diagnosing alcohol

00:36:01.500 abuse

00:36:02.020 are you getting

00:36:02.960 in trouble

00:36:03.340 with the law

00:36:04.060 is it interfering

00:36:05.420 with your intimate

00:36:06.020 relationships

00:36:06.580 is it interfering

00:36:07.740 with your ability

00:36:08.420 to hold a job

00:36:09.300 it means that

00:36:10.420 the the addictive

00:36:11.280 substance is starting

00:36:12.180 to dominate your life

00:36:13.440 in a manner

00:36:14.180 that's counterproductive

00:36:15.720 and other people

00:36:16.840 are there to

00:36:17.480 ensure that you

00:36:18.740 stay balanced

00:36:20.280 enough so that

00:36:20.940 you don't deteriorate

00:36:22.060 entirely

00:36:22.580 you're lucky

00:36:23.720 if you have that

00:36:24.580 and part of the point

00:36:26.380 I make in that chapter

00:36:27.380 and I would say

00:36:28.060 in both books

00:36:28.820 and in Maps of Meaning

00:36:30.100 as well

00:36:30.520 is that

00:36:30.860 the primary obligation

00:36:32.960 of a parent

00:36:34.620 is to serve

00:36:36.100 as a proxy

00:36:36.940 for the social

00:36:38.160 and the natural world

00:36:39.760 but let's say

00:36:41.240 the social world

00:36:42.060 why

00:36:42.860 well because

00:36:44.240 you want to train

00:36:45.080 your child

00:36:45.580 to be

00:36:46.040 not only

00:36:46.840 acceptable socially

00:36:48.120 but highly

00:36:49.180 desirable socially

00:36:50.800 and the reason

00:36:51.960 for that

00:36:52.380 is that

00:36:52.780 by the time

00:36:53.660 they're about

00:36:54.120 three

00:36:54.600 three to four

00:36:55.420 is the transition

00:36:56.140 period

00:36:56.540 they're going

00:36:58.240 to be spending

00:36:58.880 more time

00:37:00.020 being socialized

00:37:01.020 by their peers

00:37:01.980 than by you

00:37:03.380 and that will

00:37:04.240 increasingly be the case

00:37:05.600 as they develop

00:37:06.360 and if you haven't

00:37:07.280 made them

00:37:07.780 if you haven't

00:37:09.460 encouraged them

00:37:10.520 through judicious

00:37:12.320 attention

00:37:12.880 to be socially

00:37:14.540 desirable

00:37:15.220 they're going to be

00:37:16.380 rejected by their peers

00:37:17.580 and then they fall

00:37:18.440 farther and farther

00:37:19.200 behind on the

00:37:19.980 developmental trajectory

00:37:21.060 when a woman 0.99

00:37:24.360 experiences an

00:37:25.260 unplanned pregnancy

00:37:26.220 she often feels

00:37:27.260 alone and afraid

00:37:28.260 too often

00:37:29.320 her first response

00:37:30.280 is to seek out

00:37:30.980 an abortion

00:37:31.460 because that's

00:37:32.580 what left-leaning

00:37:33.220 institutions have

00:37:34.180 conditioned her to do

00:37:35.300 but because of the

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00:37:38.200 that search may lead

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00:38:35.340 slash Jordan

00:38:36.200 Jordan you asked

00:38:41.100 the times person

00:38:42.720 in the full length

00:38:44.020 article

00:38:44.340 or full length

00:38:45.160 recording which I

00:38:45.780 listened to

00:38:46.280 you said hey

00:38:46.800 don't focus on my

00:38:47.620 illness in this

00:38:48.220 focus on why

00:38:49.860 people resonate

00:38:51.120 with my message

00:38:52.080 which she of

00:38:52.900 course did not

00:38:53.620 but that leaves

00:38:54.960 no one does

00:38:55.780 it leaves me an

00:38:56.800 opening

00:38:57.080 I'm gonna take it

00:38:57.960 right now

00:38:58.440 it's so interesting

00:38:59.980 to see that

00:39:00.800 is that

00:39:01.240 it's so interesting

00:39:03.360 because

00:39:03.740 you know

00:39:04.940 the only time

00:39:05.760 that ever gets

00:39:06.360 addressed

00:39:06.820 is by the

00:39:08.620 mainstream media

00:39:09.900 Jesus

00:39:10.600 you know

00:39:11.100 horrible cliche

00:39:12.000 but

00:39:12.300 it's usually

00:39:14.040 sort of brushed

00:39:15.240 off

00:39:15.600 and it's usually

00:39:16.460 well

00:39:16.760 he seems to be

00:39:17.780 attractive towards

00:39:18.760 young men who

00:39:19.600 are troubled

00:39:20.340 well first of all

00:39:22.040 that's not so bad

00:39:23.020 is it

00:39:23.400 I mean

00:39:23.760 hypothetically

00:39:24.900 the most ardent 0.93

00:39:26.780 feminist is

00:39:27.740 primarily concerned

00:39:29.320 with helping

00:39:30.600 the troubled

00:39:31.980 young man

00:39:32.640 not be so

00:39:33.620 troubled

00:39:34.100 but it's brushed

00:39:35.860 off in a cynical

00:39:36.740 sort of way

00:39:37.440 and cynicism

00:39:38.580 is also

00:39:39.200 disbelief

00:39:40.200 that that

00:39:40.660 could possibly

00:39:41.460 be serious

00:39:42.420 a serious

00:39:44.040 enterprise

00:39:44.560 well I think

00:39:45.340 it's a serious

00:39:45.980 enterprise

00:39:46.700 why do you

00:39:48.160 think they

00:39:48.440 resonate with you

00:39:49.260 I think

00:39:50.900 it's because

00:39:51.540 who knows

00:39:53.920 the final answer

00:39:54.720 to anything

00:39:55.300 you know

00:39:55.640 but I took

00:39:56.720 what I learned

00:39:57.520 about what

00:39:57.980 happened in the

00:39:58.580 second world war

00:39:59.320 seriously

00:39:59.920 it's like

00:40:01.220 wow

00:40:01.740 we can be

00:40:02.820 really bad

00:40:04.020 we should do

00:40:05.320 something about

00:40:06.040 that

00:40:06.460 like that

00:40:08.720 was

00:40:08.980 unacceptable

00:40:10.100 well was it

00:40:13.220 or not

00:40:13.720 but how

00:40:14.440 unacceptable

00:40:15.080 was it

00:40:15.640 change your

00:40:16.460 life

00:40:16.880 unacceptable

00:40:17.560 better be

00:40:19.160 if you want

00:40:21.080 it not to

00:40:21.580 happen again

00:40:22.300 and it's not

00:40:24.640 like the next

00:40:25.700 time it

00:40:26.080 happens

00:40:26.560 we'll make

00:40:28.720 the previous

00:40:29.300 time look

00:40:29.940 like a picnic

00:40:30.640 we're way

00:40:32.980 more powerful

00:40:33.640 than we were

00:40:34.440 you know

00:40:37.820 when we're

00:40:38.140 getting to

00:40:38.520 the point

00:40:38.860 of something

00:40:39.300 Jung talked

00:40:39.960 about

00:40:40.280 especially

00:40:40.740 near the

00:40:41.140 end of

00:40:41.400 his life

00:40:41.800 we're getting

00:40:43.060 so powerful

00:40:43.860 that each

00:40:45.260 individual is

00:40:46.100 now a force

00:40:46.920 of almost

00:40:47.640 unimaginable

00:40:48.560 destructive

00:40:49.080 power if

00:40:49.860 they so

00:40:50.340 choose to

00:40:51.060 be

00:40:51.360 and that's

00:40:52.660 just going

00:40:53.080 to

00:40:53.360 that power

00:40:55.780 is going to

00:40:56.200 continue to

00:40:56.780 increase

00:40:57.260 and what

00:40:58.680 that means

00:40:59.140 is that

00:40:59.520 the degree

00:41:00.520 to which

00:41:00.940 each of us

00:41:01.480 has our

00:41:01.860 act together

00:41:02.460 is going

00:41:03.300 to be

00:41:03.700 something

00:41:04.120 upon which

00:41:05.380 the world

00:41:05.780 increasingly

00:41:06.380 depends

00:41:07.060 for its

00:41:08.000 maintenance

00:41:08.460 I'm going

00:41:10.480 to add

00:41:10.740 something to

00:41:11.280 why I

00:41:11.660 think people

00:41:12.680 resonate with

00:41:13.600 you so much

00:41:14.340 in the book

00:41:15.760 you encourage

00:41:16.860 people to

00:41:17.560 think from

00:41:18.060 an evolutionary

00:41:18.620 perspective

00:41:19.460 which I think

00:41:20.260 is incredibly

00:41:21.000 important and

00:41:21.780 I think what

00:41:22.300 you offer

00:41:23.660 people is

00:41:24.440 one you

00:41:25.120 make we all

00:41:25.800 struggle with

00:41:26.260 our own

00:41:26.560 internal demons

00:41:27.280 and you

00:41:28.560 allow people

00:41:29.820 to see how

00:41:30.580 that's a

00:41:31.060 heroic

00:41:31.560 endeavor

00:41:32.200 maybe the

00:41:32.720 ultimate

00:41:33.060 heroic

00:41:33.500 endeavor

00:41:33.860 to conquer

00:41:34.480 that inside

00:41:35.460 of yourself

00:41:35.960 and then

00:41:36.800 going back

00:41:37.280 to the

00:41:37.740 beginning

00:41:38.200 of identity

00:41:39.080 being a

00:41:39.960 function of

00:41:40.540 behavior

00:41:41.000 by helping

00:41:42.240 people begin

00:41:42.820 to identify

00:41:43.460 as the

00:41:44.020 hero

00:41:44.340 engaging in

00:41:45.800 relatively

00:41:46.520 straightforward

00:41:47.060 behaviors

00:41:47.580 like cleaning

00:41:48.220 your room

00:41:48.640 or like in

00:41:49.060 the new

00:41:49.300 book

00:41:49.500 making an

00:41:50.020 area

00:41:50.300 beautiful

00:41:50.880 refusing to

00:41:52.380 give into

00:41:52.760 resentment

00:41:53.320 aim at 0.92

00:41:54.100 one thing 1.00

00:41:54.700 which fuck 1.00

00:41:55.440 was one of 0.99

00:41:55.960 my favorite

00:41:56.640 parts of the

00:41:57.180 book and

00:41:57.960 see how

00:41:58.300 extraordinarily

00:41:58.760 good you

00:41:59.440 can get

00:41:59.820 at that

00:42:00.200 like when

00:42:00.860 I think

00:42:01.140 that's a

00:42:01.580 good thing

00:42:02.040 is you

00:42:02.420 gotta aim

00:42:02.840 at something

00:42:03.460 it's like

00:42:04.860 otherwise your

00:42:05.400 life is

00:42:05.860 meaningless

00:42:06.280 well what

00:42:06.840 should you

00:42:07.100 aim at 0.92

00:42:07.460 well I

00:42:07.800 don't know

00:42:08.160 well pick

00:42:08.880 something

00:42:09.380 pick something

00:42:10.720 aim at it

00:42:11.720 as you move

00:42:12.420 toward it

00:42:12.980 you'll get

00:42:13.340 wiser then

00:42:14.060 maybe your

00:42:14.520 aim will

00:42:14.940 change

00:42:15.500 that's okay

00:42:16.300 but at least

00:42:17.200 it'll change

00:42:17.740 in an informed

00:42:18.440 way

00:42:18.920 it's like

00:42:19.980 discipline

00:42:20.420 yourself in

00:42:21.060 one dimension

00:42:21.760 see what

00:42:23.300 happens

00:42:23.780 well that's

00:42:25.080 exciting

00:42:25.580 and I think

00:42:28.260 that's something

00:42:28.780 that's open

00:42:29.260 for everyone

00:42:29.900 you can do

00:42:31.340 that I

00:42:32.360 shouldn't say

00:42:32.820 that because

00:42:33.180 I don't

00:42:33.520 believe that

00:42:33.940 I think you

00:42:34.380 can find

00:42:34.740 yourself in

00:42:35.260 a situation

00:42:35.760 that's so

00:42:36.240 dire that

00:42:36.800 you don't

00:42:37.320 there's no

00:42:38.180 escape from

00:42:38.740 it but

00:42:40.140 that doesn't

00:42:41.240 matter because

00:42:41.900 this still

00:42:43.000 this is the

00:42:44.160 hero myth

00:42:44.800 might not

00:42:45.420 be the

00:42:47.700 best we

00:42:48.180 have might

00:42:48.720 not always

00:42:49.300 work but

00:42:52.260 it's still

00:42:52.640 the best

00:42:53.100 we have

00:42:53.680 and the

00:42:55.960 fact that

00:42:56.320 it might

00:42:56.740 not work

00:42:57.480 doesn't

00:42:58.080 mean we

00:42:58.380 should

00:42:58.520 throw it

00:42:58.840 away

00:42:59.140 it's still

00:43:01.920 the best

00:43:02.300 we have

00:43:02.840 I mean

00:43:03.720 everyone

00:43:04.020 dies and

00:43:04.760 so we

00:43:05.100 fail in

00:43:05.640 some sense

00:43:06.320 the fact

00:43:08.280 that a

00:43:08.560 symphony

00:43:08.860 ends doesn't

00:43:09.560 mean that it

00:43:10.000 wasn't worth

00:43:10.480 listening to

00:43:11.200 yeah when

00:43:15.320 you put

00:43:15.640 that in

00:43:15.960 an evolutionary

00:43:16.520 context and

00:43:18.000 you acknowledge

00:43:19.100 that people

00:43:20.260 are compelled

00:43:22.060 by biology

00:43:23.040 to strive

00:43:23.920 they're compelled

00:43:24.620 by biology

00:43:25.520 to progress

00:43:26.540 they're compelled

00:43:27.200 by biology

00:43:28.000 to be

00:43:29.800 courageous

00:43:30.360 that they

00:43:31.020 will be

00:43:31.340 rewarded for

00:43:32.100 being courageous

00:43:32.740 neurochemically

00:43:33.560 they will be

00:43:34.180 punished for

00:43:34.900 being a 0.98

00:43:35.280 coward 0.82

00:43:35.560 neurochemically 0.99

00:43:36.440 and

00:43:37.460 yeah well

00:43:38.420 think about

00:43:38.980 you know

00:43:39.380 the thing

00:43:39.980 about that

00:43:40.460 biological

00:43:41.000 explanation

00:43:41.540 too is

00:43:42.160 that we've

00:43:42.520 been social

00:43:43.280 for a

00:43:43.800 very long

00:43:44.320 time

00:43:44.640 we've been

00:43:45.600 social for

00:43:46.260 so long

00:43:46.880 that our

00:43:47.240 social nature

00:43:48.040 is programmed

00:43:48.680 into our

00:43:49.280 biology

00:43:49.800 and so

00:43:51.560 you'll be

00:43:52.620 punished if

00:43:53.160 you're not

00:43:53.500 useful to

00:43:54.040 other people

00:43:54.640 yes

00:43:55.380 by your

00:43:56.500 conscience

00:43:56.940 because you're

00:43:57.460 a social

00:43:57.880 creature

00:43:58.340 and the

00:43:59.960 question is

00:44:00.460 well how

00:44:00.720 could you

00:44:01.000 be most

00:44:01.480 here's another

00:44:02.540 question that

00:44:03.520 starts to

00:44:04.480 verge on the

00:44:05.660 religious

00:44:06.080 what does

00:44:07.760 the most

00:44:08.300 useful person

00:44:09.480 look like

00:44:10.440 well who

00:44:11.180 is everyone

00:44:11.820 hoping they'll

00:44:12.880 meet

00:44:13.320 and that's

00:44:14.600 a genuine

00:44:14.960 question

00:44:15.500 and that's

00:44:17.760 the ideal

00:44:18.320 the ideal

00:44:19.200 is the

00:44:19.640 person

00:44:19.900 everyone's

00:44:20.340 hoping

00:44:20.560 they'll

00:44:20.780 meet

00:44:20.980 that's

00:44:22.260 Christ

00:44:22.820 in the

00:44:23.660 Christian

00:44:24.060 culture

00:44:24.520 psychologically

00:44:25.720 speaking

00:44:26.420 independent

00:44:27.600 of any

00:44:28.200 religious

00:44:28.560 claims

00:44:29.180 so that's

00:44:31.720 these

00:44:32.140 this is

00:44:33.560 this is

00:44:34.260 I suppose

00:44:35.860 the essential

00:44:36.440 idea of

00:44:36.900 the archetype

00:44:37.620 from the

00:44:38.040 Jungian

00:44:38.360 perspective

00:44:38.940 we have

00:44:40.260 the image

00:44:41.420 of an

00:44:41.760 ideal

00:44:42.140 and because

00:44:44.020 it is

00:44:44.400 the ultimate

00:44:45.320 ideal

00:44:45.700 it has a

00:44:46.140 religious

00:44:46.480 element

00:44:46.840 it's compelling

00:44:47.680 it's a

00:44:48.760 judge

00:44:49.180 why is it

00:44:49.960 a judge

00:44:50.340 well if

00:44:50.960 you fall

00:44:51.400 short of

00:44:51.860 the ideal

00:44:52.340 your conscience

00:44:53.460 punishes you

00:44:54.280 so it's a

00:44:55.180 judge

00:44:55.580 and it's

00:44:57.600 merciful

00:44:58.120 well why

00:44:58.760 because if

00:44:59.200 you act

00:44:59.520 out the

00:44:59.900 ideal

00:45:00.320 then your

00:45:01.320 life improves

00:45:02.200 you know

00:45:03.860 and I said

00:45:04.400 well the

00:45:04.700 question

00:45:05.120 what is the

00:45:06.300 relationship

00:45:06.780 between these

00:45:07.400 images of

00:45:07.900 the psyche

00:45:08.400 and reality

00:45:10.420 I don't

00:45:12.400 know the

00:45:13.000 answer to

00:45:13.420 that

00:45:13.740 I don't

00:45:14.940 know

00:45:15.320 where

00:45:16.240 the

00:45:18.200 archetype

00:45:18.780 shades

00:45:19.140 into

00:45:19.560 reality

00:45:20.880 it depends

00:45:24.760 to some

00:45:25.120 degree on

00:45:25.480 how you

00:45:25.740 define

00:45:26.060 reality

00:45:26.620 and you

00:45:28.660 know

00:45:28.760 this is

00:45:29.140 I've been

00:45:29.700 people don't

00:45:31.000 like that

00:45:31.700 statement

00:45:33.060 but

00:45:34.460 when you're

00:45:36.640 asking questions

00:45:37.440 that are deep

00:45:37.980 enough you

00:45:38.440 start to have

00:45:39.140 to ask

00:45:39.720 what do you

00:45:40.360 mean by

00:45:40.900 true

00:45:41.500 for example

00:45:42.320 what do you

00:45:42.860 mean by

00:45:43.260 real

00:45:43.620 because the

00:45:44.360 questions you

00:45:44.940 ask get so

00:45:45.620 deep that

00:45:46.280 they're of the

00:45:47.480 same kind

00:45:48.320 as the

00:45:48.900 question what

00:45:49.580 is real

00:45:50.080 or what

00:45:50.460 is true 0.89

00:45:51.000 you know

00:45:52.600 if

00:45:53.000 think of it

00:45:53.620 this way

00:45:54.080 reality is

00:45:55.560 what we

00:45:56.000 adapt to

00:45:56.740 by definition

00:45:58.340 that's

00:45:59.480 reasonable

00:45:59.900 if you're

00:46:00.220 a Darwinian

00:46:00.800 you have

00:46:01.140 to say

00:46:01.460 that's

00:46:01.780 actually

00:46:02.080 as far

00:46:02.440 as you

00:46:02.700 can go

00:46:03.200 reality

00:46:04.280 is that

00:46:04.820 which

00:46:05.040 shapes

00:46:05.400 us

00:46:05.780 you can't

00:46:07.220 get a

00:46:07.580 better

00:46:07.800 handle on

00:46:08.360 reality

00:46:08.760 than that

00:46:09.280 well

00:46:09.860 when you

00:46:10.800 make a

00:46:11.480 picture of

00:46:11.880 objective

00:46:12.320 reality

00:46:12.700 it's not

00:46:13.080 the same

00:46:13.580 as that

00:46:14.180 it's a

00:46:15.000 different

00:46:15.300 picture

00:46:15.760 and it's

00:46:16.740 not obvious

00:46:17.300 which one

00:46:17.800 should

00:46:18.080 play

00:46:18.840 trump

00:46:19.360 now

00:46:21.140 the hero

00:46:21.820 myth

00:46:22.140 as far as

00:46:22.580 I can

00:46:22.880 tell

00:46:23.080 is an

00:46:23.360 evolutionary

00:46:23.800 artifact

00:46:24.400 and that

00:46:26.600 means that

00:46:27.120 for human

00:46:27.880 beings

00:46:28.340 that the

00:46:29.040 hero image

00:46:29.680 is the

00:46:30.200 path of

00:46:31.040 of optimal

00:46:32.820 adaptation

00:46:33.540 does that

00:46:35.680 reflect reality

00:46:36.820 well it

00:46:37.800 does insofar

00:46:38.540 as reality

00:46:39.080 has selected

00:46:39.880 that

00:46:40.340 well does

00:46:42.280 that mean

00:46:42.640 that reality

00:46:43.140 is a story

00:46:43.960 because the

00:46:45.240 hero myth

00:46:45.700 is a story

00:46:46.340 or at least

00:46:46.700 that's one

00:46:47.080 of the

00:46:47.300 things it

00:46:47.680 is

00:46:47.940 does it

00:46:49.080 mean that

00:46:49.460 reality

00:46:49.800 has a

00:46:50.260 narrative

00:46:50.620 aspect

00:46:51.320 well it

00:46:52.500 does insofar

00:46:53.220 as we

00:46:53.540 act things

00:46:54.220 out

00:46:54.660 does that

00:46:56.760 mean that

00:46:57.140 reality

00:46:57.720 is ultimately

00:46:58.560 a story

00:46:59.280 well I

00:47:00.500 don't know

00:47:01.060 but the

00:47:02.040 answer isn't

00:47:02.620 obviously

00:47:03.260 no

00:47:03.980 in rule

00:47:05.620 two you

00:47:06.080 say to

00:47:06.660 imagine

00:47:07.180 who we

00:47:07.560 could be

00:47:08.020 and then

00:47:08.900 to aim

00:47:09.300 single-mindedly

00:47:10.140 at that

00:47:10.580 but reality

00:47:12.320 gets in the

00:47:13.420 way of you

00:47:13.920 reaching that

00:47:14.860 potential

00:47:15.300 and it

00:47:16.120 can hurt

00:47:16.920 how can

00:47:18.400 people cope

00:47:19.360 with the

00:47:19.720 pain of

00:47:20.120 unreached

00:47:20.720 potential

00:47:21.260 well part

00:47:23.520 of oh

00:47:24.160 that's a

00:47:24.480 really good

00:47:24.740 question

00:47:25.160 look every

00:47:26.460 ideal is

00:47:27.120 a judge

00:47:27.860 right so

00:47:29.780 you posit

00:47:30.380 an ideal

00:47:30.920 and instantly

00:47:31.580 you're in

00:47:32.000 inferior position

00:47:32.980 in relationship

00:47:33.620 to that

00:47:34.080 ideal and

00:47:34.660 that can

00:47:34.980 be crushing

00:47:35.540 okay so

00:47:36.800 what do you

00:47:37.160 do about

00:47:37.780 that well

00:47:38.100 one answer

00:47:38.620 is no

00:47:39.260 ideals

00:47:39.980 well that's

00:47:40.960 not a good

00:47:41.400 answer because

00:47:41.960 then you don't

00:47:42.380 have anything

00:47:42.800 to do

00:47:43.460 right so

00:47:44.980 so and

00:47:46.100 that deprives

00:47:46.820 you of a

00:47:47.160 main source

00:47:47.660 of pleasure

00:47:48.160 which is

00:47:48.680 observed

00:47:49.520 generated as

00:47:50.880 a consequence

00:47:51.400 of observed

00:47:52.080 movement towards

00:47:53.020 a valued

00:47:53.420 goal so

00:47:53.840 if you

00:47:54.720 have a

00:47:55.220 high goal

00:47:55.920 and you

00:47:56.880 see any

00:47:57.440 movement towards

00:47:58.220 it there's a

00:47:58.720 potential there's a

00:47:59.860 really powerful

00:48:00.640 potential kick

00:48:01.520 there so you

00:48:02.160 don't want to

00:48:02.640 dispense with

00:48:03.360 that but

00:48:04.140 then if you

00:48:04.620 set up an

00:48:05.060 ideal it can

00:48:05.700 judge you

00:48:06.180 very harshly

00:48:07.020 so then you

00:48:08.080 have to

00:48:08.420 rearrange your

00:48:09.380 reward

00:48:10.060 philosophy and

00:48:11.600 instead of

00:48:12.240 punishing

00:48:13.380 yourself from

00:48:14.180 as a

00:48:15.080 consequence of

00:48:15.700 perceived

00:48:16.020 distance you

00:48:16.760 reward yourself

00:48:17.540 for incremental

00:48:18.140 movement forward

00:48:19.020 and that's

00:48:20.120 not just

00:48:20.520 theoretical look

00:48:21.360 I was stopped

00:48:22.120 by three guys

00:48:23.280 on the street

00:48:23.880 this week

00:48:24.460 three separate

00:48:25.620 occasions and

00:48:26.980 they all told me

00:48:27.520 the same thing

00:48:28.060 they you know

00:48:28.500 they they said

00:48:29.500 that they had

00:48:30.120 read or

00:48:30.620 something I

00:48:31.560 wrote or

00:48:31.960 listened to

00:48:32.540 something or

00:48:33.580 watched something

00:48:34.780 and that it

00:48:35.340 had been helpful

00:48:35.980 and whenever

00:48:36.360 ever anybody

00:48:37.320 says that to

00:48:38.060 me I always

00:48:38.440 ask them

00:48:38.860 okay exactly

00:48:40.260 what was

00:48:41.280 helpful and

00:48:42.380 what changed

00:48:43.480 because I want

00:48:44.480 to know what's

00:48:45.280 helping so

00:48:46.360 that I can

00:48:46.900 understand the

00:48:48.100 target and

00:48:48.680 hit it better

00:48:49.280 and so and

00:48:50.320 generally people

00:48:51.200 are are pleased

00:48:52.880 to tell me

00:48:53.700 although sometimes

00:48:55.220 it takes them a

00:48:55.860 while to formulate

00:48:56.580 exactly the

00:48:57.680 description but

00:48:58.780 they all three

00:48:59.680 of them said

00:49:00.280 I stopped

00:49:02.120 comparing myself

00:49:03.060 to other

00:49:03.900 people so I'll

00:49:05.540 stop comparing

00:49:06.280 what I didn't

00:49:07.520 have to what

00:49:08.020 other people had

00:49:08.880 I left that

00:49:09.740 off the table

00:49:10.240 and then I

00:49:11.500 started to reward

00:49:12.300 myself for

00:49:12.880 improving over

00:49:13.960 what I was

00:49:14.640 yesterday so

00:49:16.020 they and

00:49:16.660 that's profound

00:49:17.660 change because

00:49:18.380 it means that

00:49:19.000 you actually

00:49:19.640 get your

00:49:20.660 reward structure

00:49:22.440 transformed and

00:49:24.440 that's a big

00:49:24.880 deal because

00:49:25.340 that's that's

00:49:25.980 your source of

00:49:26.560 positive emotion

00:49:27.880 and enthusiasm

00:49:29.200 encouragement all

00:49:30.320 of that so now

00:49:31.120 you can start to

00:49:31.880 encourage yourself

00:49:32.700 for for genuine

00:49:34.460 improvement and

00:49:35.060 it's also

00:49:35.480 pragmatically

00:49:36.220 extremely intelligent

00:49:37.320 because incremental

00:49:39.740 improvement repeated

00:49:41.080 is virtually

00:49:41.880 unstoppable and

00:49:43.620 I that's like the

00:49:46.020 hallmark of

00:49:46.700 behavioral therapy

00:49:47.600 that idea because

00:49:49.020 what a behavior

00:49:49.740 therapist does is

00:49:50.740 you come and you

00:49:51.520 say to me I'm

00:49:53.860 not things aren't

00:49:54.940 the way I want

00:49:55.560 them to be and

00:49:56.400 then I say well

00:49:57.200 well how would you

00:49:59.120 like them to be and

00:50:00.080 how are they not

00:50:01.000 that so we lay out

00:50:02.340 the problem the

00:50:03.240 territory and then

00:50:04.360 the next thing we do

00:50:05.260 is lay out a

00:50:06.320 trajectory which is

00:50:07.440 okay well here's

00:50:08.240 something you're

00:50:09.200 lonesome you don't

00:50:10.640 have a partner okay

00:50:12.200 so what are the

00:50:13.640 what are incremental

00:50:14.780 movements can you

00:50:15.980 make towards that

00:50:16.880 goal that you

00:50:18.380 would do that

00:50:19.980 would be helpful

00:50:20.920 and so maybe you

00:50:22.940 you you negotiate

00:50:24.240 with the person

00:50:25.020 because that's what

00:50:25.800 you do if you're a

00:50:26.740 reasonable therapist

00:50:27.520 and you say well

00:50:28.880 look why don't you

00:50:29.780 uh you decide as a

00:50:31.700 consequence of the

00:50:32.340 conversation why

00:50:33.920 don't you write out

00:50:34.680 a description of

00:50:35.580 yourself for a

00:50:36.340 dating site don't

00:50:37.280 post it or anything

00:50:38.200 just write it out

00:50:39.760 and and then let's

00:50:41.300 see if you actually

00:50:42.060 do that and so

00:50:43.660 then the person

00:50:44.180 comes back next

00:50:44.960 week and they say

00:50:45.820 I did that and

00:50:46.840 not only that I

00:50:47.840 posted it and you

00:50:49.060 say great what's the

00:50:50.040 next step or they

00:50:50.720 say geez you know I

00:50:51.480 just kept avoiding

00:50:52.560 that and then you

00:50:54.220 say okay well we

00:50:56.260 need to break that

00:50:57.220 down you avoided

00:50:59.520 it well could you

00:51:00.920 write one sentence

00:51:02.300 about who you are

00:51:03.260 right now while

00:51:04.080 you're sitting here

00:51:04.900 and sometimes they

00:51:06.360 can do that right

00:51:07.180 away or sometimes

00:51:07.840 they can't and

00:51:08.580 then you you make

00:51:09.520 a micro analysis

00:51:10.200 of that and what

00:51:11.220 you do is you you

00:51:12.620 reduce the magnitude

00:51:14.880 of the move

00:51:15.700 forward until you

00:51:18.040 hit the point where

00:51:19.080 you actually will do

00:51:20.440 it and that's like

00:51:22.460 the secret to good

00:51:23.660 negotiation and as

00:51:24.880 well if you're

00:51:25.540 negotiating with your

00:51:26.340 wife maybe you want 0.99

00:51:27.560 one of her behaviors 0.90

00:51:28.380 to change and then

00:51:31.500 obviously she has to

00:51:33.280 be on board with

00:51:34.060 that and hypothetically

00:51:35.280 that's going to be

00:51:36.120 reciprocal process

00:51:37.340 but what you want

00:51:38.600 to do is find a

00:51:39.580 small improvement

00:51:41.960 that is measurable

00:51:44.220 that's implementable

00:51:46.940 that will be

00:51:47.880 implemented that you

00:51:49.160 can then reward

00:51:50.180 and and that's

00:51:51.680 that's that's how

00:51:52.560 you can have your

00:51:53.320 ideal you you can

00:51:55.140 have whatever ideal

00:51:56.100 you want as long

00:51:56.860 as you're willing to

00:51:58.440 reduce your movement

00:51:59.880 forward to achievable

00:52:01.120 increments but that's

00:52:02.500 okay because they

00:52:03.920 compound so and I

00:52:06.940 really learned this

00:52:07.640 as a therapist it

00:52:08.380 was one of the

00:52:08.820 things that was so

00:52:09.400 fun about being a

00:52:10.420 therapist is you can

00:52:11.660 take someone through

00:52:12.420 this process and start

00:52:14.080 them on just the

00:52:14.900 tiniest goal you know

00:52:17.680 and it just seems

00:52:19.380 trivial but they'll do

00:52:21.400 it and then they

00:52:22.400 start moving fast

00:52:23.540 after faster and

00:52:24.620 faster after that

00:52:25.420 point once the

00:52:26.580 direction has been

00:52:27.400 established and people

00:52:28.920 make incredible

00:52:29.720 improvement over you

00:52:31.340 know not unreasonable

00:52:32.980 spans of time a few

00:52:34.840 months maybe a few

00:52:36.080 years but which is

00:52:37.260 not nothing but it's

00:52:38.700 not decades you know

00:52:40.280 it's I saw the saw

00:52:42.140 that time and time

00:52:43.020 again so aim high

00:52:47.180 but reward yourself

00:52:48.880 for small incremental

00:52:50.760 improvements especially

00:52:51.760 ones that repeat every

00:52:52.880 day imagine who you

00:52:55.620 could be and then aim

00:52:56.520 single-mindedly at that

00:52:57.740 that was a tricky one to

00:52:59.040 have you do because the

00:53:00.580 chapter is an analysis

00:53:02.180 of an old alchemical

00:53:03.220 drawing and so you

00:53:05.620 had to be constrained

00:53:06.740 in in the recreation of

00:53:08.500 that because it had to

00:53:09.720 duplicate all the

00:53:10.500 elements of the original

00:53:11.580 drawing or my chapter

00:53:12.660 wouldn't have made any

00:53:13.500 sense so which made it

00:53:17.440 easier for me being

00:53:18.760 constrained is easy I

00:53:21.780 know exactly what's

00:53:22.700 supposed to be there

00:53:23.400 yes well people with an

00:53:26.760 artistic temperament or

00:53:27.960 maybe people with a

00:53:29.140 wannabe artistic

00:53:29.940 temperament often rail

00:53:31.880 against constraint but

00:53:33.540 it's you want a lot of

00:53:37.000 constraint generally

00:53:37.900 speaking otherwise you

00:53:39.220 drown in choice and

00:53:41.840 that's that's a big

00:53:43.540 problem so this chapter

00:53:45.300 describes this picture

00:53:47.480 as a story that

00:53:49.180 proceeds from the

00:53:50.020 bottom up you can take

00:53:51.080 it in at a glance but

00:53:52.060 it's also proceeds from

00:53:53.180 the bottom up and it's

00:53:54.900 the emergence of

00:53:56.020 personality well-developed

00:53:58.540 personality from from

00:54:00.260 nothing in some sense or

00:54:01.520 from potential that's

00:54:02.680 another way of thinking

00:54:03.480 about it and it's an

00:54:05.160 unbelievably sophisticated

00:54:06.360 image and which is why

00:54:08.440 it takes me a chapter to

00:54:09.980 unwrap some of it so

00:54:12.820 what what what did you

00:54:17.880 what was the experience for

00:54:19.980 you of working on this

00:54:21.020 image i figured i was

00:54:26.500 looking for one of the

00:54:27.840 paintings to make

00:54:29.340 inverted as opposed to

00:54:31.680 as opposed to black

00:54:35.480 figures on white

00:54:37.000 background which is

00:54:37.920 usually the case i've done

00:54:40.020 it inverted and i loved it

00:54:41.680 i loved how it's black as

00:54:43.840 opposed to every original i

00:54:45.440 saw on the internet that

00:54:49.000 makes it very magical

00:54:50.940 uh there are the

00:54:55.960 dragon there so the way

00:54:58.660 the picture works just as

00:54:59.980 a hint is that well the

00:55:02.740 bottom sphere in some

00:55:04.320 sense represents that which

00:55:05.780 attracts your interest and

00:55:07.080 then that can transform

00:55:09.380 itself into that which

00:55:10.740 you're afraid of so you

00:55:12.220 might have an ambition for

00:55:13.280 example to pursue something

00:55:14.400 you're interested in but

00:55:16.120 then that turns into a

00:55:17.220 dragon because you're

00:55:18.100 afraid of pursuing it but

00:55:19.280 if you do confront it then

00:55:20.660 that turns into you that

00:55:22.580 that helps you develop

00:55:23.820 your personality that's

00:55:25.580 that's that image in a

00:55:27.360 thumbnail um it's

00:55:29.920 there's much more to it

00:55:31.120 than that of course

00:55:32.040 i love it

00:55:34.840 and so imagine who you

00:55:38.400 could be and then aim

00:55:39.280 single-mindedly at that

00:55:40.940 see i like that one

00:55:42.400 the single-mindedly part is

00:55:45.760 an interesting one what i

00:55:49.140 learned this at least in

00:55:50.040 part from nietzsche is you

00:55:51.260 know when you're a kid in

00:55:52.820 principle you could be

00:55:53.660 anything which is kind of

00:55:55.520 one of the wonderful things

00:55:56.460 about being a kid and then

00:55:58.020 one of the painful things

00:55:59.100 about growing up and being an

00:56:00.260 adult is that well you can't

00:56:02.060 just stay be in everything

00:56:03.400 that's the story of peter pan

00:56:05.360 right pan means everything and

00:56:08.020 peter pan is this magical

00:56:10.000 child you know who can do

00:56:12.780 anything but he's a he's got

00:56:16.000 a strange kingdom right he's

00:56:17.560 king of the lost boys which

00:56:19.260 perhaps isn't a kingdom that

00:56:21.100 you want to rule over and and

00:56:23.960 so and he doesn't grow up and

00:56:27.360 so he falls in love with wendy

00:56:29.140 and wendy grows up and she has a

00:56:31.680 family she gets old she stops

00:56:33.420 being a child but she has a

00:56:35.100 family she has a husband and

00:56:36.180 she has a family she has a life

00:56:37.420 and peter pan just stays in

00:56:38.920 neverland which is also a hint

00:56:40.500 on the part of the reader and

00:56:42.140 he stays magical and contents

00:56:43.920 himself with tinkerbell who i 0.97

00:56:45.640 always think of her as the porn 1.00

00:56:46.660 fairy and 0.69

00:56:47.820 yeah he's got all the advantages

00:56:57.120 of femininity except she's not 1.00

00:56:59.060 real yeah

00:57:00.320 yeah and so you know peter pan

00:57:07.000 and he doesn't want to grow up

00:57:08.440 partly because his role model is

00:57:09.980 captain hook and captain hook

00:57:12.000 well you think about he's a pirate 0.51

00:57:14.040 so he's kind of a tyrant and he's 1.00

00:57:15.860 also a coward and he's a coward 0.99

00:57:17.640 because he's well he's afraid at 0.99

00:57:19.760 least because he's being chased by a

00:57:21.020 crocodile with a clock in his

00:57:22.200 stomach you think what the hell does

00:57:23.900 that mean he's being chased by a

00:57:25.580 crocodile what does that mean it's

00:57:27.180 like well and it's already got a

00:57:28.760 piece of him right it's bitten off

00:57:30.040 his hand it liked the taste well it's

00:57:32.020 time that's why the clock is there you

00:57:35.220 know it's time and the crocodile is

00:57:37.620 that terrible force that lies

00:57:39.640 underneath everything that waits to

00:57:41.280 pull you down like it's mortality

00:57:42.820 itself and the threat of mortality

00:57:44.760 and the reason that captain hook is a

00:57:46.720 tyrant is because he's afraid of death

00:57:48.400 and and so that makes him a tyrant and 0.99

00:57:51.280 a cowardly tyrant and peter pan looks at 0.99

00:57:53.460 the cowardly tyrant and he thinks well i 0.99

00:57:55.000 don't want to grow up to be that 0.98

00:57:56.200 and it's like well fair enough you know

00:57:58.300 but what are you going to do not grow up

00:58:00.760 well then you stay king of the lost

00:58:02.260 boys and you have tinkerbell and life

00:58:04.640 goes on and that's not a good outcome

00:58:06.640 and so you know you have to make a

00:58:09.600 sacrifice when you grow up you have to

00:58:12.220 become something and to become something

00:58:14.540 means to not become a whole bunch of

00:58:16.220 other things like it's a sacrifice it's

00:58:18.720 the same sacrifice that you undertake when

00:58:20.440 you decide to get married you know it's

00:58:22.500 like well you forego everyone else to

00:58:25.760 have one person and and it and it is it

00:58:30.140 it's a real sacrifice and it's a

00:58:31.580 sacrifice that preys on people's minds

00:58:33.380 because they think well you know maybe i

00:58:34.760 could have picked someone better it's

00:58:36.080 like because you always suffer from the

00:58:37.800 delusion that someone better would have

00:58:39.800 agreed to have you and well it's funny i

00:58:43.220 just i just read this this great article i

00:58:46.700 tweeted it a couple of nights ago i read

00:58:48.740 this great article about how people select

00:58:51.500 potential mates on dating sites and they

00:58:54.200 they they people generally go for those

00:58:57.420 who are about 25 percent more attractive

00:59:00.220 than they are so which is you know

00:59:02.700 ambitious and and and and pointless um

00:59:06.520 but that is what people do you know they

00:59:09.520 hope that me i don't know what they hope

00:59:11.020 they hope the person won't notice it's

00:59:12.900 like i just i'll just slip myself in here

00:59:16.440 and maybe you won't notice it's like

00:59:18.380 well so there's a sacrifice you know and

00:59:23.680 but the thing about the sacrifice is that

00:59:26.200 you end up with something rather than

00:59:29.100 nothing at all and i've seen lots of

00:59:31.600 people in my clinical practice you know

00:59:33.600 who didn't grow up when they should have

00:59:35.120 and and who are 30 or which isn't too bad

00:59:37.680 although it's not that good but 40 you

00:59:40.100 know they're still drifting they still

00:59:41.940 haven't catalyzed an identity of any

00:59:44.120 sort and that gets that starts to get

00:59:46.620 ugly you know 30 gets starts to get ugly

00:59:48.860 around 30 if you're 23 or 24 and you

00:59:51.420 haven't catalyzed an identity it's okay

00:59:53.660 people think well you're mostly peter

00:59:55.280 pan you're full of potential man

00:59:56.760 we'll gamble on the potential you know

00:59:58.980 and take a chance at you but then if

01:00:00.440 you're 30 and you have the same

01:00:02.400 non-existent resume people think well

01:00:05.700 you just failed it's not potential it's

01:00:10.120 just you're just not there and if it's

01:00:12.000 that's the case at 40 that's getting

01:00:14.700 really rough like it's not completely

01:00:16.540 hopeless if you're in that situation at

01:00:18.900 40 but man you got a lot of catching up

01:00:22.060 to do and so and so how do you get out

01:00:24.760 of that well partly and this is one of

01:00:27.360 the things you also have to let young

01:00:29.200 people know is pick something you don't 0.98

01:00:31.520 know what to do well take your best damn 0.98

01:00:33.580 shot at it don't wait around man make a 0.97

01:00:36.400 plan aim at something move in that

01:00:39.400 direction adopt a disciplinary routine of

01:00:42.940 some sort because that was that will that

01:00:45.560 will form you now limits you too but it

01:00:47.980 forms you and then you know and then the

01:00:50.260 thing about adopting a disciplinary

01:00:51.940 structure which limits you and which is a

01:00:55.420 sacrifice is that it also it also

01:00:58.300 increases the probability that you're

01:01:00.940 going to do something useful over the

01:01:03.440 long run you know when I was starting out

01:01:07.420 as a researcher my area of research was

01:01:12.100 somewhat narrow I was looking at the

01:01:15.540 heredity I was looking at factors that

01:01:18.020 influenced the inheritability of

01:01:20.500 alcoholism because alcoholism is

01:01:22.420 heritable to a large degree and it's

01:01:24.400 partly because the manner in which you

01:01:27.180 respond to a drug of abuse is

01:01:29.320 determined in part by biological factors

01:01:32.180 and that the variance in those

01:01:34.840 biological factors is biologically

01:01:38.080 determined to a fair degree so I'll

01:01:40.720 give you an example I had this friend

01:01:42.220 his name was Frank Irvin he was a very

01:01:44.560 cool guy he looked like Ernest Hemingway

01:01:46.180 and in a big beard and he was a cool

01:01:48.520 character and he had this ranch in St Kitts

01:01:52.240 it was a monkey ranch I know I know a 1.00

01:01:55.840 monkey ranch and he was raising alcoholic 0.95

01:01:58.840 monkeys and because he was a researcher and

01:02:02.140 and he would take these wild monkeys green

01:02:04.960 monkeys and and bring them in to an

01:02:07.840 enclosure and then he would give them

01:02:09.100 rum and coke and five percent of the

01:02:12.820 monkeys would drink Tacoma on first

01:02:14.980 exposure and he had videotapes of that

01:02:17.860 which were really hilarious they looked

01:02:20.140 like they looked like frat party

01:02:22.300 fundamentally you know and most of the

01:02:25.000 monkeys would have a few sips and you

01:02:26.860 know and discuss their monkey business

01:02:31.260 in you know in a civilized way in a

01:02:36.240 corner and then go home you know when

01:02:38.700 when it was time to call it a night but

01:02:40.080 there was five percent of them and they

01:02:41.640 were like hanging off the trees by their

01:02:43.920 tail in their arms by the end of the

01:02:45.960 evening and and passed out completely

01:02:48.000 anyways one of his discoveries was that

01:02:51.060 in a wild population of primates who were

01:02:55.800 relatively naive to alcohol that if you

01:02:58.680 exposed a certain proportion of them five

01:03:00.660 percent of them had no control

01:03:01.560 whatsoever over their drinking they just

01:03:03.660 drink right Tacoma that's about the

01:03:05.340 same with with people who start to

01:03:07.500 experiment with alcohol so anyways that's

01:03:09.480 one of the examples that you know that

01:03:11.700 there was there was a biological influence

01:03:13.500 anyways this area of inquiry was somewhat

01:03:18.240 narrower than I had hoped for you know I

01:03:21.660 didn't really I hadn't really planned on

01:03:24.120 studying the psychobiology of response to

01:03:26.340 alcohol I was interested in drug abuse

01:03:28.200 and drug abuse motivation I was

01:03:29.460 interested in wider issues but what was

01:03:31.320 so cool was that the deeper I got into

01:03:33.300 that so the more I discipline myself with

01:03:35.400 regards to that particular domain of

01:03:37.440 study the more I learned about all sorts of

01:03:40.020 other things it was like going through a

01:03:41.340 keyhole and then out the other side and

01:03:43.980 most disciplinary processes are like that

01:03:46.920 and so one of the things you have to do is

01:03:48.960 you take the pluripotentiality of

01:03:51.060 childhood and you discipline that so that

01:03:53.220 there that might be a meta rule like you

01:03:56.340 couldn't say well here's the disciplinary

01:03:58.980 structure everyone should undertake that's

01:04:01.800 too specific a rule you know everybody

01:04:04.440 should go into the military it's like no not

01:04:06.340 necessarily who knows what your

01:04:08.640 disciplinary strategy should be but you

01:04:11.340 can make a more abstract rule which is

01:04:13.200 something like I don't care what your

01:04:14.760 disciplinary strategy is but you need to

01:04:18.120 impose one on yourself and for some

01:04:19.960 reasonable amount of time because you

01:04:21.600 integrate yourself as a consequence of

01:04:23.580 doing that as well as making yourself you

01:04:25.860 know vaguely socially useful and

01:04:28.260 appropriate which is also a non-trivial

01:04:30.060 thing and then once you have yourself

01:04:31.680 disciplined then you can take that

01:04:34.140 discipline stealth and you can start

01:04:35.580 expanding it outward again and so that's a

01:04:37.920 really useful thing to know so this is

01:04:40.360 Nietzsche who is a great criticism great

01:04:42.780 critic of Christianity was an admirer of

01:04:45.360 Catholicism interestingly enough because

01:04:48.720 one of the things he believed was that the

01:04:54.040 attempt over several thousands of years to

01:04:57.180 force every phenomenon into a framework that

01:05:03.900 could be explained by the axioms of

01:05:06.540 Catholic belief disciplined the European

01:05:10.180 mind it made it it made it capable of

01:05:13.800 producing rigorous and coherent theories

01:05:17.060 independent of whether the theory was

01:05:19.500 correct that wasn't the issue it was like

01:05:21.060 well once you learn how to write you can

01:05:22.860 write essay a but you could also write

01:05:24.780 essay B if you don't know how to write you

01:05:26.620 can't write either in a maybe you learn to

01:05:28.800 write by writing essay a but then you can

01:05:30.780 write essay B and C and the same issue

01:05:32.700 applies here is once you get yourself

01:05:34.560 disciplined then you can take the

01:05:36.280 discipline self and you can go do a bunch of

01:05:38.060 different things with it and so maybe it

01:05:39.780 doesn't matter how you discipline yourself

01:05:42.000 but it really matters that you do and so

01:05:45.160 that's an important thing I think I think

01:05:46.620 it's an important thing for everyone to

01:05:47.820 know but I think it's really an important

01:05:49.200 thing for young people to know it's like

01:05:50.500 well I don't know what to do with myself

01:05:51.960 well don't sit around and get old that's a

01:05:54.900 bad idea and spin around doing nothing

01:05:57.360 it's like pick something make a mistake

01:05:59.880 right pick something that you're not sure

01:06:02.100 about and go and pursue it you get a

01:06:03.840 quarter of the way there halfway there

01:06:05.520 you're a lot smarter because you've had to

01:06:07.020 undertake a fair bit of learning just to

01:06:09.300 get that far maybe at that point you

01:06:11.280 find out it's not for you and you

01:06:13.020 decide to make a left-hand turn you

01:06:14.880 know you make a 90-degree turn

01:06:16.080 somewhere else at least you've fleshed

01:06:18.060 yourself out in the pursuit of the

01:06:19.800 discipline and don't wait around you

01:06:23.040 know and I think that's well so that's

01:06:24.540 what that chapter is about and so

01:06:37.020 you

The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast - June 23, 2022

264. Beyond Order： Rule 2 - Imagine Who You Could Be, and Then Aim Single-Mindedly at That.

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