The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast - 273. Conservative Resistance in Canada ｜ Roman Baber

00:00:00.960 Hey everyone, real quick before you skip, I want to talk to you about something serious and important.

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00:00:57.420 Hello everyone.

00:01:10.220 As you may or may not know, and probably don't, Canada is in the midst of a leadership race for its Federal Conservative Party.

00:01:20.260 The Federal Conservatives in Canada are generally the second most likely political party in Canada to govern at the Federal and the Provincial levels.

00:01:31.800 Recently, as a consequence of the aftermath of the truckers' convoy, the Conservative Party blew up in some sense in Canada.

00:01:43.040 The leader resigned, and a new slate of contenders is now vying for leadership position.

00:01:50.720 I spoke with one of them recently, Pierre Polyev, who's currently the frontrunner, and I extended an invitation to the other candidates to speak with me.

00:02:01.560 Mr. Roman Babber took me up on that.

00:02:04.520 He's currently, as I said, a candidate for leadership of Canada's Federal Conservative Party.

00:02:09.380 He's a former member of Ontario's Provincial Parliament.

00:02:12.600 He was removed, most infamously, by Ontario Premier Doug Ford from that Provincial Government Caucus after calling out the collateral harm of lockdowns in January 2021.

00:02:28.140 Since then, Mr. Babber has been a staunch advocate in favour of a balanced COVID response and such emergency responses,

00:02:36.360 and in particular, against lockdowns due to their toll on the health and mental health of Canadians.

00:02:44.000 Roman also brought legislation to cut MPP, Member of Provincial Parliament, pay to Canadian emergency response benefit levels while emergency orders are in place,

00:02:55.060 commenced, and is in litigation against the Attorney General of Ontario over Canadians' right to protest and worship outdoors,

00:03:02.060 and recently put forward a bill to outlaw workplace mandates.

00:03:07.960 He is running for leader of the Conservative Party of Canada because he does not wish to, quote,

00:03:13.580 sit back while Canadians are losing faith in Canada's democracy and Canadian opportunity.

00:03:20.900 Thank you very much, Mr. Babber, for coming to talk to me today, and I'm looking forward to a provocative discussion.

00:03:28.540 Good to be with you, Jordan.

00:03:29.420 So, let's start with a question that I thought was handled very badly by the Conservatives during the last federal debate.

00:03:42.520 The debate was, during the election that Trudeau precipitously called,

00:03:46.860 the debate was framed around five issues, and one of the things I thought the Conservatives did extraordinarily badly

00:03:52.060 was to allow the progressives, essentially, to dictate the terms of the debate, to dictate the topics.

00:03:58.780 And so, one of the things I wanted to ask you, you're contending for leadership of the Conservative Party

00:04:03.880 and, hypothetically, for Prime Ministership of Canada.

00:04:07.660 What do you think the most crucial issues facing Canadians today are?

00:04:13.200 I think, like, in much of the Western world, it's the erosion of Canada's democracy that I fear very much

00:04:21.280 and that propelled me to enter into this race.

00:04:24.240 I'm seeing unprecedented erosion, whether it's by way of censorship.

00:04:28.380 We have two or three pieces of legislation in Canada seeking to abridge freedom of speech.

00:04:33.600 We have regulators coming down on membership.

00:04:38.500 We have, obviously, social media giants also censoring speech.

00:04:42.400 Then, as many of you know, I have been very saddened by the fact that close to 20% of Canadians

00:04:48.940 are treated as effectively second-class citizens.

00:04:51.380 I made the choice that most Canadians have made, but that doesn't mean that we should impose our choice on others.

00:04:57.860 In fact, we've never done that as Western civilization.

00:05:01.540 We're seeing an unlawful invocation of the Emergencies Act that was predicated in false propositions,

00:05:07.640 voted on after the alleged emergency was over, clearly without meeting the matter of the law,

00:05:13.220 which suggests that you don't need it if you have other legislation to deal with.

00:05:16.640 So, Jordan, I think that if you don't have democracy, you don't have anything.

00:05:22.240 And I'm very, very concerned about where we're headed.

00:05:26.200 So, what makes you think that this concern is warranted?

00:05:29.760 I mean, you're from the former Soviet Union, so you have experience with such things.

00:05:34.180 Your family does, certainly.

00:05:36.800 You talked about censorship.

00:05:39.020 We could go into that with Bill C-11 in particular,

00:05:41.500 which is a stunningly overreaching piece of legislation, no matter how you slice it.

00:05:46.200 And will be absolutely impossible to impose.

00:05:49.360 What makes you think that we're actually facing something serious in Canada

00:05:55.080 in relationship to our democratic freedoms?

00:05:57.400 And why should people assume that this isn't just a, you know,

00:06:01.680 what a scandalous talking point that the Conservatives are using

00:06:04.860 to drum up interest in the leadership race?

00:06:07.580 What do you see happening?

00:06:09.480 Well, as they would say in Latin,

00:06:12.680 it speaks for itself.

00:06:14.920 You see it before your very eyes.

00:06:16.980 Government is passing legislation which would dictate,

00:06:19.680 which would manipulate what Canadians see online,

00:06:23.760 giving the CRTC, which is our broadcast regulator,

00:06:26.940 even more power to determine what we may and may not see.

00:06:31.120 We see government also picking winners and losers in the media,

00:06:34.740 in that we know that we do not have effectively free and independent media in Canada

00:06:42.320 because it's heavily subsidized.

00:06:44.240 The government bailed out the media a couple of years ago

00:06:46.740 and continues with annual subsidies.

00:06:49.220 How can you have free and independent media

00:06:50.960 when the government signs its paycheck?

00:06:54.920 Yeah, well, let's drill down into that a little bit.

00:06:58.200 So the Canadian federal government subsidizes the CBC

00:07:02.220 to the tune of between $1.2 and $1.5 billion a year

00:07:06.400 for a shrinking market of virtually no viewers

00:07:10.200 and then seems to also, in some sense,

00:07:13.880 collude with the CBC to produce news pieces

00:07:16.640 that are in keeping with government legislation

00:07:18.720 and then to refer to those pieces of legislation

00:07:22.560 for proof that the legislation being covered

00:07:25.200 was actually necessary to begin with.

00:07:27.060 And then there's this broader pattern of subsidizing media in general.

00:07:31.400 And to me, this is reminiscent of what's technically termed fascism

00:07:36.000 because fascism comes from fascists to bind together.

00:07:40.580 And fascism is collusion of elites, right?

00:07:43.460 So government, media, corporation colluding together

00:07:47.600 to produce a kind of monolith.

00:07:49.380 What would Pierre Polyev on my podcast when I interviewed him famously

00:07:56.540 or infamously said that he would defund the CBC?

00:08:00.240 And so what's your take on that from a policy perspective?

00:08:04.860 So it's important for you, as you mentioned, to understand

00:08:07.440 I was born in the former Soviet Union

00:08:09.080 and we didn't leave until I was almost nine.

00:08:11.060 I still have a very good recollection about that communist regime.

00:08:17.280 Specifically, there was a newspaper called Pravda.

00:08:20.440 Pravda means truth in the Russian language.

00:08:23.660 And so Pravda would be plastered all over walls 0.95

00:08:26.380 and buildings and subway stations.

00:08:28.820 And it would essentially be government talking points.

00:08:31.520 And what we've seen, particularly in the last two or three years,

00:08:34.320 is that government was effectively repeating,

00:08:36.060 sorry, media was effectively repeating government talking points,

00:08:39.480 particularly as it came to the public health exercise.

00:08:44.160 But I would say beyond that,

00:08:46.120 so we don't only have this funding of the CBC,

00:08:49.560 which will end before lunchtime.

00:08:51.980 We also have bailouts and subsidies

00:08:54.620 of a number of other stakeholders in the media.

00:08:58.860 And on top of that, we're now seeing an unprecedented move

00:09:03.140 for media buys.

00:09:04.460 Government has become one of the biggest advertisers

00:09:07.200 on all news and media platforms.

00:09:11.520 And there's an old rule in the ad game.

00:09:14.600 He or she who pays for the ad gets their narrative across.

00:09:19.260 And so I would not just defund the CBC.

00:09:21.600 I will also end the bailouts and the subsidies.

00:09:24.460 And I will limit the way that government

00:09:26.560 is able to advertise on all platforms.

00:09:31.100 I'm sure your viewers fully agree and understand

00:09:34.140 that free and independent media

00:09:35.660 is one of the most important checks and balances

00:09:38.220 we have in our democracy

00:09:39.180 because it is in fact vested with the responsibility

00:09:41.740 to put a check on government,

00:09:43.140 something we're simply not seeing in Canada,

00:09:45.700 which I think in large part resulted

00:09:48.200 in the catastrophe that I've alleged has transpired

00:09:50.660 over the last two years.

00:09:51.880 Yeah, well, you know, we have the continual suspension

00:09:58.260 of parliament in Canada, which is a catastrophe

00:10:00.920 that's now being extended essentially another year

00:10:03.400 in an absolutely unprecedented and unwarranted move.

00:10:07.320 And so the possibility for genuine opposition

00:10:10.680 to the Trudeau government's policies

00:10:13.380 has been dramatically reduced on the parliamentary front.

00:10:16.620 And now we have this situation where the press,

00:10:19.400 which and even the CBC in years past

00:10:21.700 was at least under some circumstances

00:10:24.520 and what would you say an effective critic

00:10:28.080 of governmental policies, both federal and provincial,

00:10:32.980 and also saw that as their sacred duty, let's say.

00:10:36.060 That seems to have gone entirely by the wayside.

00:10:39.240 And so that means Canadians are in a position.

00:10:41.240 I saw this with the truckers convoy.

00:10:42.980 You know, when Trudeau called them misogynists and bigots

00:10:46.660 and that they were attempting in some sense

00:10:50.220 to foment a coup, my sense that was that Canadians 0.84

00:10:53.460 had a really hard option in front of them,

00:10:55.440 which was to either decide that their prime minister 0.95

00:10:58.060 was a complete liar and that the federal government 0.53

00:11:00.360 had become untrustworthy as an institution, 0.92

00:11:02.880 along with all the legacy media outlets,

00:11:05.620 or that the truckers were reprehensible misogynists 0.93

00:11:08.800 and bigots. 0.92

00:11:09.400 And many Canadians decided to take the latter stance.

00:11:14.900 But it's not surprising to me because our institutions

00:11:17.580 had been pretty sound for about 150 years.

00:11:20.360 And it's a bitter pill for Canadians to swallow

00:11:22.660 to understand that that, in some real sense,

00:11:25.080 may no longer be the case.

00:11:27.080 You cannot underestimate the role that the media plays

00:11:29.460 in everyday Canadian discourse.

00:11:31.520 You said yourself at the commencement of this interview

00:11:33.260 that conservatives have difficulty reframing the debate.

00:11:37.720 In fact, liberals frame the debate very, very well.

00:11:40.880 And so it seems like we're fighting every election

00:11:43.320 on their ground instead of talking about issues

00:11:45.540 that may be important to us.

00:11:47.300 And so there's no question that media has a large part

00:11:52.580 in how the daily conversation goes on,

00:11:54.740 which is why it's so important that we keep it independent

00:11:57.220 and objective by ending all financial relationship

00:12:00.040 between government and the media.

00:12:01.520 But back to the truckers.

00:12:03.600 Jordan, everything the Trudeau government said

00:12:06.740 about the Ottawa convoy turned out to be false.

00:12:10.620 The arson was not connected.

00:12:13.880 There were no weapons.

00:12:14.520 Yeah, that was a huge lie, man.

00:12:15.880 There was no weapons found anywhere near the site.

00:12:19.040 There was very little foreign funding,

00:12:21.500 about 10 to 12 percent,

00:12:22.780 and all of it was small donations.

00:12:24.860 And there was no foreign collusion.

00:12:26.320 And it's on the strength of those misrepresentations

00:12:31.120 that a lot of Canadians formed public opinion,

00:12:33.820 and on the strength of those misrepresentations

00:12:36.320 that the government tried to justify

00:12:37.920 the invocation of the Emergencies Act,

00:12:40.440 which is the successor of the War Measures Act

00:12:42.660 that hasn't been invoked since the 70s.

00:12:47.660 And so this particular piece of legislation

00:12:49.660 was invoked for the first time.

00:12:51.240 This is, of course, an affront to democracy,

00:12:56.000 but it's important in how you stated

00:12:57.900 that it was, in fact, the CBC

00:13:00.020 that raised the prospect of foreign collusion.

00:13:04.200 And one or two cabinet ministers

00:13:06.440 pointed to evidence in the media

00:13:08.940 in support of their suggestion

00:13:11.340 that there was foreign collusion.

00:13:12.680 So the government is funding the media.

00:13:15.840 The media is speculating and is often wrong.

00:13:19.080 The government is predicating action

00:13:20.860 on the basis of such media speculation

00:13:23.460 and then justifies its invasive

00:13:26.420 and very undemocratic action.

00:13:28.440 So I think we're in real trouble here,

00:13:31.200 and we've got to rethink all of this.

00:13:33.800 Well, Trudeau, it seems to me

00:13:35.320 that Trudeau believes his own press releases

00:13:37.760 in some real sense.

00:13:39.020 And I'm not actually quite as cynical about that

00:13:42.280 as I might be,

00:13:43.180 because I don't think it's possible

00:13:45.860 to generate a web of deception around you,

00:13:50.520 a web of instrumental deception around you,

00:13:53.700 and simultaneously maintain your distance from that.

00:13:57.640 And so I think when he feeds stories to the CBC

00:14:00.700 and then the CBC feeds them back,

00:14:03.460 he believes it.

00:14:04.620 It's not merely cynical.

00:14:06.240 It's that he's trapped up

00:14:07.320 in his own web of deception.

00:14:08.760 I think we've been seeing

00:14:11.480 last in the last couple of years,

00:14:12.900 one of the hallmarks of authoritarian regimes

00:14:17.020 is that they peddle half-truths

00:14:20.260 or things that often are not true.

00:14:24.540 But quite often,

00:14:26.180 they tend to believe in the system

00:14:28.420 that the people around them

00:14:29.700 are made to buy into those half-truths

00:14:34.680 because that essentially strengthens the system.

00:14:37.100 And we've seen that largely

00:14:39.320 in our public health exercise.

00:14:41.640 We've seen, for instance,

00:14:42.680 that the...

00:14:43.700 And even I'm talking about objective facts,

00:14:46.720 facts that we understood pretty well.

00:14:48.620 For instance,

00:14:49.140 we knew that the modeling was not reliable.

00:14:51.720 The modeling was consistently overly aggressive.

00:14:55.040 They would meet some of the metrics,

00:14:56.860 like cases,

00:14:57.780 but we understood very early

00:14:59.120 that the factor by which

00:15:01.300 you have to multiply

00:15:02.680 all the categories we're interested in,

00:15:04.920 like hospitalizations or deaths,

00:15:06.200 was constantly overstated.

00:15:09.300 But despite that,

00:15:11.460 even though time and time again

00:15:13.260 the modelers were wrong,

00:15:15.000 the government continued to...

00:15:18.200 This pervasive fear,

00:15:20.220 this belief that we have to continue

00:15:23.500 down this very aggressive path of mitigation

00:15:26.000 that, of course, resulted in a catastrophe.

00:15:29.160 Well, in a catastrophe that hasn't ended yet

00:15:31.680 because the fact that we disrupted supply chains,

00:15:34.720 we're still going to pay for that.

00:15:36.060 And I was thinking the other day too,

00:15:37.880 you know,

00:15:38.760 because we locked everything down

00:15:41.800 around the whole world,

00:15:42.960 that also meant that political leaders

00:15:44.740 didn't get to meet face-to-face.

00:15:47.000 And so in some real sense,

00:15:49.220 Putin, for example,

00:15:50.320 was taken out of the face-to-face discussions

00:15:53.100 that might have also otherwise occurred

00:15:55.140 for a period of a couple of years.

00:15:56.740 And God only knows what that did

00:15:58.840 to savage Russia-Western relationships.

00:16:01.900 So the consequences of this lockdown

00:16:03.880 have not by any stretch of the imagination

00:16:05.980 come to an end yet.

00:16:07.700 Now, you got tossed out

00:16:10.500 of the Doug Ford Conservative Provincial Caucus

00:16:14.960 because of your vociferous objection

00:16:18.060 to the lockdown.

00:16:19.160 So let's go into that for a bit.

00:16:22.580 What happened there

00:16:23.520 and why did it come to blows,

00:16:27.640 so to speak?

00:16:28.600 And what's been the consequence

00:16:31.620 of that for you?

00:16:33.100 And what should Canadians think about that?

00:16:37.560 I started feeling a lot more optimistic

00:16:39.720 about the risk of COVID early in May 2020.

00:16:45.200 Public health came in and said,

00:16:46.480 look, first of all,

00:16:47.340 80%, almost 80% of everyone

00:16:48.940 that regretfully passed away

00:16:50.180 were in long-term care homes

00:16:51.400 in congregate settings.

00:16:52.740 I said, OK, that's, of course, tragic.

00:16:54.960 So let's focus our resources

00:16:56.520 on long-term care

00:16:57.400 into infection protocol and control

00:16:59.240 instead of locking down healthy people

00:17:01.420 and making them sick. 0.83

00:17:03.040 The second element we learned very early

00:17:05.260 is that the virus was considerably

00:17:07.860 more transmissible than we thought.

00:17:10.220 And that was actually good news

00:17:11.700 because that meant that there was,

00:17:14.020 the infection rate was considerably higher

00:17:15.720 than previously thought.

00:17:17.220 And that means that the metrics

00:17:18.500 that we're worried about,

00:17:19.880 like hospitalizations,

00:17:21.240 like deaths, like mortality,

00:17:22.840 is significantly lower.

00:17:25.040 And, of course, I thought that we're going

00:17:27.840 to potentially pivot our response

00:17:29.940 because there's no question

00:17:31.080 that locking down healthy people,

00:17:33.240 delaying their surgeries,

00:17:34.840 canceling cancer screenings,

00:17:37.040 and, of course, locking down the economy

00:17:38.660 is probably not going to be good

00:17:39.780 for our health and mental health.

00:17:41.500 And as time went on in 2020,

00:17:43.320 I started hearing more and more

00:17:46.040 of some of those unintended consequences

00:17:48.500 of lockdown.

00:17:49.700 And so I had difficulty

00:17:51.580 towards the end of 2020

00:17:53.740 to continue to not be able

00:17:57.680 to speak out on something

00:17:59.040 that I felt defined our generation.

00:18:01.840 It is well known

00:18:03.380 that I worked very hard

00:18:04.960 within my government

00:18:06.180 to try and steer them

00:18:07.720 into a different course.

00:18:09.100 But in early January,

00:18:10.620 I realized that we're probably

00:18:12.660 not going to turn.

00:18:13.600 And all I wanted to do, Jordan,

00:18:14.940 is to start a conversation

00:18:15.900 because there was no conversation.

00:18:18.520 People were afraid

00:18:19.540 to tell their best friend

00:18:20.800 that their kid is depressed

00:18:22.680 because that would render you

00:18:24.260 a grandma killer of some sort.

00:18:26.180 And I was hoping that

00:18:27.620 by issuing this public letter,

00:18:29.520 a conversation would start,

00:18:31.180 would ensue.

00:18:31.660 And in fact, thankfully,

00:18:32.820 it started.

00:18:33.960 What I was also hoping for

00:18:35.160 is that a lot more leaders

00:18:37.020 would follow,

00:18:37.920 a lot more business leaders,

00:18:39.200 political leaders,

00:18:40.100 union leaders,

00:18:40.980 trade leaders, whoever,

00:18:42.300 academic leaders.

00:18:43.560 But unfortunately,

00:18:44.240 that did not happen much

00:18:45.220 because of this culture of fear

00:18:46.920 that has gagged everyone

00:18:48.660 into silence.

00:18:50.600 And so since then,

00:18:51.940 I've been asked to leave caucus.

00:18:54.160 I lost my chairmanship

00:18:55.000 of the Justice Committee,

00:18:56.380 but I'm at peace

00:18:58.500 with my decision.

00:18:59.960 And I'm grateful

00:19:01.200 that I've been able

00:19:01.800 to give a voice

00:19:02.360 to many Canadians.

00:19:04.600 Yeah, well, I mean,

00:19:05.940 Ford obviously piloted Ontario

00:19:09.440 well enough to,

00:19:11.400 in the minds of the constituents,

00:19:12.780 to win an overwhelming majority

00:19:16.040 in the last election.

00:19:17.760 And so he steered a course

00:19:21.300 that seemed to be in accord

00:19:23.100 with the desires of the people.

00:19:25.040 Were you surprised?

00:19:27.700 Now, I have been personally unhappy,

00:19:30.600 at least to some degree,

00:19:32.180 with the degree to which Mr. Ford

00:19:34.480 has cozied up to the federal liberals

00:19:37.320 and also appalled

00:19:39.120 at some of the legislation,

00:19:40.760 for example,

00:19:41.300 that his Minister of Education

00:19:42.640 has proposed.

00:19:43.900 I think that was Bill C-67,

00:19:45.660 which is an absolutely appalling

00:19:47.180 piece of legislation,

00:19:48.420 likely to die in ignominy

00:19:50.940 in any case.

00:19:51.940 But that's not precisely the point.

00:19:54.380 Were you,

00:19:55.340 what was your personal experience like

00:19:57.560 trying to make the case

00:19:59.980 that you made

00:20:00.700 and then running into opposition

00:20:02.420 from your former compatriots?

00:20:05.440 It's interesting to note that,

00:20:07.420 and I, of course,

00:20:08.200 will not reveal any names

00:20:09.940 or details,

00:20:11.040 and I will not breach confidentiality

00:20:13.360 of my former caucus,

00:20:14.220 but I will say that

00:20:15.600 it's well known

00:20:16.200 that many have,

00:20:17.740 in fact,

00:20:18.280 shared my view,

00:20:20.080 including,

00:20:21.200 at times,

00:20:22.520 even the Premier himself.

00:20:24.360 And it's regretful.

00:20:26.000 And it's,

00:20:26.520 I found it incredibly regretful

00:20:28.000 that we didn't have the courage,

00:20:30.280 we didn't have the political courage

00:20:31.960 to say,

00:20:33.340 enough,

00:20:34.320 we have to reassess our response

00:20:36.320 because we're clearly harming people.

00:20:38.400 Right?

00:20:38.740 If this was tax policy

00:20:40.480 or if we were dealing with,

00:20:42.900 you know,

00:20:43.340 highway construction

00:20:44.240 and fine,

00:20:46.380 I understand why

00:20:47.600 some people might be

00:20:48.700 more inclined to do politics

00:20:50.000 than others.

00:20:50.960 But when it comes to human life,

00:20:53.220 and that's what I try to stress

00:20:54.840 in this exercise,

00:20:56.260 subsequent to my expulsion

00:20:58.940 from the Conservative caucus,

00:21:00.740 I've been subjected to

00:21:02.620 a lot of criticism,

00:21:06.220 I would say,

00:21:07.020 pointed lightly,

00:21:08.400 by our opposition,

00:21:09.920 by media and others.

00:21:12.300 But,

00:21:13.380 and somehow,

00:21:14.340 there is this dispersion

00:21:16.040 where people try to suggest

00:21:17.380 that you don't care about life

00:21:18.660 or you want to compromise life.

00:21:20.800 But I think it's precisely the opposite.

00:21:23.480 It was an intent to save lives.

00:21:25.280 And in fact,

00:21:25.600 I think that this entire exercise

00:21:27.140 of the last couple of years

00:21:28.200 dehumanized

00:21:29.660 so many people around the world.

00:21:32.780 In fact,

00:21:33.820 as we try to convey

00:21:35.340 this collective sense,

00:21:37.580 goal of safetyism,

00:21:39.040 what we've in fact done

00:21:40.580 is the opposite,

00:21:41.600 is we've compromised human life,

00:21:43.560 we've compromised human ingenuity,

00:21:45.540 we've compromised,

00:21:46.620 we've regressed our children considerably.

00:21:49.560 And so the goal was

00:21:51.460 to take a holistic view.

00:21:54.260 And so that's what I'm upset

00:21:55.740 by my friends.

00:21:57.700 Given recent SCOTUS wins,

00:21:59.480 it feels like the pendulum

00:22:00.460 may be swinging back

00:22:01.540 to a time

00:22:02.020 when the nuclear family

00:22:03.060 was situated

00:22:03.740 at the center of American life,

00:22:05.480 where real conversation,

00:22:06.820 learning,

00:22:07.160 and growth

00:22:07.500 began at home.

00:22:08.620 President Ronald Reagan

00:22:09.500 said in his farewell address

00:22:10.680 that all great change in America

00:22:12.320 begins around the dinner table.

00:22:14.240 Well,

00:22:14.620 all great meals in America

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00:22:55.620 slash Peterson.

00:22:57.520 So I have it on good authority

00:22:59.520 that a lot of the decision-making

00:23:01.720 around COVID policy,

00:23:04.020 specifically in Ontario,

00:23:05.280 but also at the federal level,

00:23:06.700 was not based on

00:23:07.980 so-called following the science,

00:23:10.120 which is not an easy thing

00:23:11.220 to do in any case,

00:23:12.140 but on

00:23:12.720 continually conducted

00:23:14.680 opinion polls.

00:23:16.080 And that's problematic

00:23:17.220 to me for two reasons.

00:23:18.660 Number one,

00:23:19.940 as a psychologist

00:23:20.900 and a research psychologist,

00:23:23.440 I know perfectly well

00:23:24.980 that asking people questions

00:23:27.140 to find out

00:23:28.080 what they really think

00:23:29.380 is unbelievably difficult.

00:23:31.680 And so

00:23:32.020 the way you

00:23:33.760 formulate the question

00:23:35.400 to a large part

00:23:36.320 determines the response

00:23:38.140 you're going to get.

00:23:38.920 So for example,

00:23:40.000 when Trudeau,

00:23:40.540 here's a good indication,

00:23:42.820 when Trudeau

00:23:43.520 clamped down

00:23:44.400 on the truckers,

00:23:46.180 the polls indicated

00:23:47.100 that most Canadians

00:23:48.160 supported his decision.

00:23:50.160 But at the same time,

00:23:51.140 the polls indicated

00:23:51.920 that his popularity

00:23:52.940 had plummeted.

00:23:54.620 And so what in the world

00:23:55.460 are you supposed to make of that

00:23:56.540 if you're polling?

00:23:57.340 And so

00:23:57.560 if you're a political leader

00:23:59.000 and your guidance

00:24:01.140 is polls,

00:24:02.320 first of all,

00:24:02.880 you're relying on something

00:24:04.120 that's unbelievably unreliable.

00:24:06.780 Short-term sampling

00:24:08.120 of public whim

00:24:09.320 done badly

00:24:10.200 by people

00:24:10.820 who don't have

00:24:11.420 the psychological credibility

00:24:12.800 to answer the questions properly.

00:24:14.360 And then as you said,

00:24:15.840 you have a proclivity

00:24:16.740 to forego your principles.

00:24:18.100 Now,

00:24:18.400 I know that

00:24:19.200 the Doug Ford government

00:24:20.320 as well as

00:24:20.880 the federal liberals

00:24:21.620 was relying on poll data

00:24:23.240 to make their decisions.

00:24:25.220 And so

00:24:25.560 you said

00:24:26.220 even the Premier

00:24:26.900 agreed with you

00:24:27.740 at least in private

00:24:28.980 in relationship

00:24:29.880 to the appalling consequences

00:24:31.860 of the lockdowns

00:24:32.900 and the abdication

00:24:33.880 of political responsibility

00:24:35.100 to health care experts.

00:24:37.200 So

00:24:37.500 why didn't they have

00:24:39.000 the courage

00:24:39.460 of their convictions?

00:24:41.980 Politics.

00:24:43.000 Politics is

00:24:43.760 as I often say.

00:24:45.000 Yeah, 1.00

00:24:45.100 but it's stupid. 1.00

00:24:46.040 It's stupid politics, 1.00

00:24:47.980 right? 1.00

00:24:48.240 Because there's no indication

00:24:49.480 that following the polls

00:24:50.660 in that manner

00:24:51.360 actually constitutes

00:24:52.340 a reasonable way forward.

00:24:54.120 So

00:24:54.280 politics is the rot

00:24:55.580 on government.

00:24:57.060 It's the cause

00:24:57.880 of

00:24:58.240 almost everything

00:24:59.680 that's bad with government

00:25:00.520 and I hope that we get

00:25:01.380 to get into that

00:25:02.060 in a moment.

00:25:03.060 But

00:25:03.260 back to opinion polling

00:25:04.700 for a moment.

00:25:05.640 What's important to appreciate

00:25:06.540 is that a lot of that

00:25:07.520 opinion

00:25:08.480 is also shaped

00:25:09.380 by government itself

00:25:10.540 and media.

00:25:11.660 Well,

00:25:11.980 of course.

00:25:12.360 And what we saw

00:25:13.680 during the COVID pandemic

00:25:14.720 was a vicious cycle

00:25:15.760 in that

00:25:16.820 you had public health

00:25:18.260 come out.

00:25:19.000 Of course,

00:25:19.320 the media would

00:25:19.960 pick up on that

00:25:20.800 and would spread fear.

00:25:22.520 The public would react

00:25:24.020 with fear.

00:25:25.240 The government

00:25:25.660 would feel that

00:25:26.920 intuitively

00:25:27.440 and would act

00:25:28.800 in response

00:25:29.420 to that fear

00:25:30.000 even when it was

00:25:31.240 completely unwarranted

00:25:32.520 and it was

00:25:34.260 objectively unwarranted.

00:25:36.140 And then

00:25:36.500 in order to justify

00:25:37.740 its own decisions

00:25:38.680 subsequent to the fact,

00:25:40.140 the government

00:25:40.640 would add more fear

00:25:41.940 to justify its action.

00:25:45.100 And so

00:25:45.340 on it went.

00:25:46.600 You know,

00:25:46.900 this is exactly

00:25:48.080 why we don't have

00:25:49.420 a direct democracy.

00:25:51.120 We have a parliamentary democracy

00:25:52.500 so there's a bit

00:25:53.440 of a space

00:25:54.800 put in

00:25:55.340 between government policy

00:25:56.600 and public feedback

00:25:57.940 and response

00:25:58.680 because

00:25:58.980 I think

00:25:59.820 the reliance

00:26:01.700 on opinion polls

00:26:02.720 as a replacement

00:26:03.540 for parliament

00:26:04.260 does inevitably,

00:26:05.680 especially in social media

00:26:07.040 mediated times

00:26:08.080 with the acceleration

00:26:08.880 of communication.

00:26:09.800 It does inevitably

00:26:11.180 produce these kinds

00:26:12.400 of vicious circle,

00:26:14.080 vicious cycle

00:26:14.780 feedback loops

00:26:15.600 that you just described.

00:26:17.360 When you don't have

00:26:18.980 objective media

00:26:20.180 questioning

00:26:21.440 the government,

00:26:22.960 right,

00:26:23.540 because the only thing

00:26:24.440 we've heard

00:26:24.980 over the course

00:26:25.860 of this pandemic

00:26:26.520 is

00:26:26.920 are you doing enough?

00:26:28.700 Are you doing it

00:26:29.460 fast enough?

00:26:30.140 Are you saving enough lines?

00:26:31.780 Why haven't you acted

00:26:32.720 sooner?

00:26:33.180 And so on and so forth.

00:26:34.120 Instead of asking

00:26:35.140 is any of this effective?

00:26:37.240 Is any of this

00:26:38.100 making sense?

00:26:39.340 Are you factoring in

00:26:40.560 the collateral harm

00:26:41.920 of what you're doing?

00:26:42.960 That was never asked.

00:26:44.520 Which is the job.

00:26:45.660 That's the fundamental job

00:26:46.980 of politicians

00:26:47.680 right there

00:26:48.380 because they abdicated

00:26:49.840 their responsibility

00:26:50.760 to these public health experts

00:26:52.500 and decided that

00:26:53.980 this narrow target,

00:26:56.160 the narrow targets

00:26:56.940 that you described

00:26:57.860 trumped every other

00:26:59.720 political and economic

00:27:01.040 consideration

00:27:01.660 in the short,

00:27:02.840 medium and long term.

00:27:04.020 There's an absolute

00:27:05.000 abdication of political

00:27:06.300 and legislative responsibility

00:27:07.800 in the face of this,

00:27:09.860 well,

00:27:10.240 what turned out to be

00:27:11.080 not so overwhelming threat

00:27:12.600 and a collapse

00:27:13.440 of our institutions

00:27:14.300 as a consequence.

00:27:15.740 The abdication

00:27:17.140 of responsibility

00:27:17.820 was to their constituents,

00:27:19.460 was to the people

00:27:20.100 that put them in office

00:27:21.620 and I've said before,

00:27:23.580 anyone with a working cell phone

00:27:25.000 would have understood

00:27:26.620 the mental health catastrophe,

00:27:29.300 of course,

00:27:29.600 the economic catastrophe,

00:27:31.060 the collapse of healthcare.

00:27:32.060 I think one of the greatest

00:27:33.660 legacies of our pandemic response

00:27:35.860 is going to be

00:27:36.780 the collapse of healthcare

00:27:38.160 in Canada

00:27:38.480 and we're seeing that

00:27:39.500 to some extent

00:27:40.040 around the world.

00:27:41.480 We have a trauma,

00:27:43.240 we have a post-trauma

00:27:44.160 in the workforce

00:27:44.880 and that includes healthcare.

00:27:47.280 We see that

00:27:48.720 we have a lot of conditions

00:27:50.260 that went undiagnosed

00:27:51.520 that are now catching up with us.

00:27:53.600 We're diagnosing cancer

00:27:54.760 a lot later

00:27:55.320 than we should be.

00:27:56.100 And so what they have done,

00:28:00.540 what the political class

00:28:01.940 has done effectively

00:28:02.540 is they've abdicated

00:28:03.740 their responsibility

00:28:04.340 to their constituents

00:28:05.220 and why did they do that?

00:28:06.580 For politics.

00:28:07.500 They were afraid

00:28:08.440 that they're going

00:28:09.420 to be cancelled

00:28:10.220 by the radical COVID,

00:28:13.540 I call it the COVID mob,

00:28:15.400 that would cancel them

00:28:17.400 on Twitter,

00:28:18.460 that would dehumanize them 0.76

00:28:20.480 or say that they don't care

00:28:22.040 about lives.

00:28:22.580 And that's what effectively

00:28:24.360 they try to do to me

00:28:25.360 is a lot of politicians

00:28:27.720 figure that they may be asked

00:28:30.160 to leave their own

00:28:30.720 government caucuses

00:28:31.560 or caucuses

00:28:32.220 if they went against the grain.

00:28:34.180 And therein lies

00:28:34.980 the classical agency conflict

00:28:36.920 of politics

00:28:38.100 in that it's inevitable,

00:28:40.840 regretfully,

00:28:41.720 that politicians continue

00:28:42.860 to put themselves

00:28:44.460 and their offices

00:28:45.800 and their careers

00:28:46.740 and their aspirations

00:28:47.760 ahead of what's right

00:28:49.220 for their constituents

00:28:50.840 and nowhere,

00:28:52.580 it has been true 0.84

00:28:53.420 before, I think,

00:28:54.320 to the extent

00:28:54.760 that it has been

00:28:55.320 with our COVID response.

00:28:59.260 So did this,

00:29:00.680 the fact that you did

00:29:01.780 get mobbed

00:29:02.680 and excluded,

00:29:04.160 let's say,

00:29:05.300 did that shake your faith

00:29:06.700 in, well,

00:29:08.380 you said it didn't shake

00:29:10.360 your faith

00:29:10.840 in what you had to say.

00:29:12.580 What did it do

00:29:13.500 to your opinions

00:29:14.440 of your political colleagues

00:29:16.180 and to your sense

00:29:17.940 of the functionality

00:29:18.900 of the political process

00:29:20.240 in general in Canada?

00:29:21.360 Look,

00:29:22.780 thankfully,

00:29:23.220 I've been able

00:29:23.760 to survive,

00:29:24.820 as I call it,

00:29:26.000 the COVID mob

00:29:26.700 and I've continued

00:29:27.760 to work ever since

00:29:29.160 articulating sensible,

00:29:31.580 moderate propositions

00:29:32.500 that if people want

00:29:33.940 to, for instance,

00:29:34.480 avail themselves

00:29:35.040 of the benefit

00:29:36.140 that the vaccine offers,

00:29:37.300 then they're certainly

00:29:38.280 welcome to do so.

00:29:39.560 But that doesn't mean

00:29:40.620 that they should force

00:29:41.680 anyone else

00:29:42.360 to do anything

00:29:43.120 that they don't want to do.

00:29:44.600 We've just never done that

00:29:45.480 before as Western civilization.

00:29:46.540 You can acknowledge

00:29:47.880 that the virus

00:29:48.680 can be very,

00:29:50.140 very risky

00:29:50.540 to certain demographics,

00:29:51.540 but you can also

00:29:52.740 be reasonable and say,

00:29:53.760 look, it's not about

00:29:54.400 how many people get COVID,

00:29:55.700 it's about who gets COVID

00:29:56.860 because we all have

00:29:58.220 different risk predispositions.

00:29:59.960 And so that's what's missing

00:30:01.520 is that we could have

00:30:03.240 overcome this

00:30:04.300 public health emergency

00:30:05.340 probably in a much better way

00:30:07.100 if we just allowed

00:30:08.040 for some sensible conversation,

00:30:10.020 which we haven't.

00:30:11.260 And so I'm grateful

00:30:12.080 for the fact

00:30:12.520 that I've been able

00:30:13.020 to continue to speak

00:30:13.900 on behalf of millions

00:30:14.720 of Canadians

00:30:15.220 and that I think

00:30:16.940 in part has brought me

00:30:18.000 to today

00:30:18.940 in that I feel

00:30:20.580 that we need

00:30:21.500 to have the courage

00:30:22.480 as a Conservative Party

00:30:23.580 to say what we believe

00:30:26.700 and do what we believe

00:30:27.820 is right.

00:30:29.040 And that...

00:30:29.780 How do you think...

00:30:30.760 How do you think...

00:30:31.760 Okay, so the Conservatives

00:30:33.000 I've talked to in Canada

00:30:34.160 over the last 10 years,

00:30:35.780 they do have this

00:30:37.180 terror of the mob.

00:30:39.580 You know, each of them

00:30:40.520 privately is afraid

00:30:42.980 that they'll be targeted

00:30:45.560 as you were

00:30:46.580 by the woke mob

00:30:48.700 and taken out

00:30:49.800 and that they'll be abandoned

00:30:51.140 by their colleagues

00:30:51.940 in doing so.

00:30:52.880 And that has put Conservatives...

00:30:54.660 To say it's put them

00:30:55.460 on the defensive

00:30:56.140 is to say almost nothing.

00:30:57.840 It's put them unbelievably

00:30:59.100 on the defensive.

00:31:00.480 Why in the world

00:31:01.380 did they decide...

00:31:02.580 First of all,

00:31:03.680 how do you think

00:31:04.460 Conservatives might be able

00:31:05.660 to protect themselves

00:31:06.500 against that?

00:31:07.260 And second,

00:31:08.360 why in the world

00:31:09.460 did Ford and his people

00:31:10.780 think that the right approach

00:31:11.920 to you was to

00:31:13.820 dispense with you

00:31:15.320 in some sense?

00:31:16.080 Why couldn't

00:31:16.700 your conversation...

00:31:18.820 Your objections

00:31:19.600 be part of the

00:31:20.400 ongoing conversation?

00:31:21.460 Why did they have to

00:31:22.180 take such a drastic move?

00:31:25.220 Look, to Conservatives

00:31:26.680 that fear

00:31:27.600 speaking their minds,

00:31:28.680 they need to do

00:31:29.260 some self-reflection

00:31:30.060 and determine

00:31:31.260 why they got

00:31:32.040 into this business.

00:31:33.600 Right?

00:31:33.840 And what is it

00:31:34.860 that differentiated us

00:31:35.960 traditionally

00:31:36.480 from the Liberal Party

00:31:37.640 is that we stuck

00:31:38.920 to the principle

00:31:39.540 of principles.

00:31:40.220 We never sought

00:31:42.000 popularity.

00:31:43.080 We never sought

00:31:44.020 to be populist

00:31:46.020 and appeal

00:31:47.060 to the most

00:31:47.540 common denominator.

00:31:49.000 Instead,

00:31:49.580 we sought

00:31:50.020 to implement

00:31:50.820 sensible policy.

00:31:52.320 And so,

00:31:52.820 if the goal

00:31:53.420 is to

00:31:54.000 say what's popular

00:31:55.100 and win elections,

00:31:57.040 then we lost

00:31:58.820 the heart

00:31:59.160 and soul

00:31:59.480 of the Conservative Party.

00:32:00.300 We do not deserve...

00:32:01.540 We have not earned

00:32:02.980 the vote of Canadians.

00:32:05.040 So,

00:32:05.180 they need to think

00:32:06.040 about why they got

00:32:06.740 into this business

00:32:07.480 and do some

00:32:08.860 self-reflection.

00:32:09.680 And the second

00:32:10.100 element of that

00:32:10.740 is that those

00:32:11.760 that are determined

00:32:13.300 to do right

00:32:14.500 by their constituents

00:32:15.280 and to do right

00:32:16.280 by Canadians,

00:32:17.520 leadership needs

00:32:18.260 to give them cover.

00:32:19.840 They need to know

00:32:20.740 that they

00:32:22.140 are free

00:32:23.980 to speak their mind

00:32:25.340 and do the right thing

00:32:26.620 without suffering

00:32:28.500 reprisal.

00:32:30.420 And so,

00:32:31.080 you can't restore

00:32:31.900 democracy in our country

00:32:32.960 without restoring

00:32:33.660 parliamentary democracy

00:32:34.660 as well.

00:32:35.400 It's something

00:32:35.800 that I'm very

00:32:36.260 passionate about.

00:32:38.120 Like I often say,

00:32:39.080 look,

00:32:39.260 I don't work

00:32:39.980 for the boss.

00:32:40.520 I work for constituents

00:32:41.220 and that's what I'll expect

00:32:42.380 should I win

00:32:43.840 the leadership

00:32:44.240 of my caucus as well.

00:32:45.860 I'm not going

00:32:46.620 to penalize an MP

00:32:47.580 for introducing legislation.

00:32:48.820 That's their

00:32:49.100 parliamentary right

00:32:49.900 even if I'll vote

00:32:50.860 against it.

00:32:51.820 I'm not going to

00:32:52.820 punish them

00:32:54.140 for disagreeing

00:32:54.860 with me

00:32:55.160 because they're

00:32:56.480 not expected

00:32:57.220 to parody me.

00:32:58.100 They're expected

00:32:58.540 to serve the people

00:32:59.260 that elected them.

00:33:01.060 Otherwise,

00:33:01.460 what do you even

00:33:01.980 need parliament for?

00:33:03.040 They could just vote

00:33:03.580 by proxy

00:33:04.180 or just

00:33:05.120 all you as a leader.

00:33:06.040 Interestingly,

00:33:06.460 we don't need

00:33:07.080 parliament,

00:33:07.780 right?

00:33:08.060 I mean,

00:33:08.380 our federal government

00:33:09.600 is doing everything

00:33:10.360 it possibly can

00:33:11.240 to make parliament

00:33:12.200 merely an unnecessary

00:33:14.920 impediment

00:33:15.920 to their woke

00:33:17.560 utopian future.

00:33:19.420 And we're headed

00:33:20.280 down that road

00:33:20.900 very rapidly.

00:33:21.980 Well,

00:33:22.160 that is a disaster.

00:33:23.800 And so

00:33:25.180 parliamentary democracy,

00:33:26.640 it's important

00:33:27.520 to understand

00:33:28.220 that it spills

00:33:28.760 to other institutions,

00:33:30.500 right?

00:33:30.740 You have a lot

00:33:31.340 of close cooperation

00:33:32.000 with industry

00:33:32.840 and you have

00:33:33.760 close corporations

00:33:34.960 with regulators.

00:33:36.320 And so

00:33:36.620 if the people

00:33:38.000 around start

00:33:39.040 sensing

00:33:39.900 that there is

00:33:40.800 no more dissent

00:33:41.820 that is allowed,

00:33:43.300 and that's in fact

00:33:44.000 what in part

00:33:44.480 I think contributed

00:33:45.120 very much

00:33:45.660 to the prevailing

00:33:47.440 COVID response

00:33:48.640 in that

00:33:49.120 people in positions

00:33:50.480 to disagree

00:33:51.220 and in fact

00:33:52.760 affect

00:33:53.340 a different outcome

00:33:54.620 like the colleges

00:33:55.680 of physicians,

00:33:56.480 like the colleges

00:33:57.040 of nurses,

00:33:57.580 like the teachers

00:33:59.060 just decided

00:33:59.760 that no,

00:34:00.440 we're going

00:34:01.160 to stick

00:34:02.200 to the messaging

00:34:03.220 and we're not

00:34:04.400 going to allow

00:34:05.160 for any dissent.

00:34:06.160 I'm of the view

00:34:06.860 that if regulated

00:34:08.320 health professionals

00:34:09.260 were able

00:34:10.300 to freely articulate

00:34:11.760 their view

00:34:12.460 and concerns

00:34:12.960 over the last

00:34:13.380 couple of years,

00:34:14.180 we would have been

00:34:14.940 out of this mess

00:34:15.580 a while ago.

00:34:16.280 That's gone

00:34:16.940 completely out

00:34:18.680 the window.

00:34:19.820 So what's happened

00:34:20.600 among the,

00:34:21.620 for healthcare

00:34:22.500 professionals,

00:34:23.540 speaking as one,

00:34:25.020 is that the colleges

00:34:26.560 have become weaponized

00:34:28.040 and so that anyone

00:34:28.880 who has a dissenting

00:34:30.040 voice of any sort

00:34:31.560 medically,

00:34:32.600 on the nursing front,

00:34:33.860 social workers,

00:34:34.720 psychologists,

00:34:35.820 if they dare voice

00:34:37.120 a dissenting opinion,

00:34:38.200 the college will come

00:34:38.880 down on them hard

00:34:39.740 with at,

00:34:40.920 so the college

00:34:41.540 is the professional

00:34:42.280 body that regulates

00:34:43.360 independently in some

00:34:45.120 sense of the government,

00:34:46.060 regulates these professions.

00:34:47.840 Anyone in the world

00:34:48.960 can take out a complaint

00:34:50.100 against me,

00:34:50.980 for example,

00:34:51.600 as a psychologist

00:34:52.380 for any reason

00:34:53.320 whatsoever

00:34:54.060 because of something

00:34:54.860 I said

00:34:55.420 and the college

00:34:56.300 will launch

00:34:56.800 an investigation

00:34:57.420 that tangles me up

00:34:58.640 in six months worth

00:34:59.620 of legal trouble

00:35:00.360 and substantive expense.

00:35:02.620 We have.

00:35:03.160 And I've talked

00:35:03.900 to many physicians

00:35:04.880 who are absolutely

00:35:06.340 unwilling to say

00:35:07.240 what they think

00:35:07.880 about health,

00:35:08.800 the health of their

00:35:09.460 patients and about

00:35:10.380 public health in general

00:35:11.320 because they are

00:35:12.340 petrified that the college

00:35:13.700 will make their life

00:35:14.940 a living hell

00:35:15.640 and destroy their 0.94

00:35:16.760 enterprise.

00:35:18.080 I've had multiple

00:35:19.660 conversations with

00:35:20.440 regulated health

00:35:21.060 professionals that

00:35:21.920 wanted to speak out

00:35:23.580 but did not have

00:35:24.540 courage to do so

00:35:26.000 because they faced

00:35:26.920 those professional

00:35:28.120 repercussions.

00:35:28.740 But it's important

00:35:29.620 in this discussion

00:35:30.340 not to lose sight

00:35:31.160 of the fact that

00:35:31.880 discussion and

00:35:33.720 expression is not

00:35:35.580 just important

00:35:36.160 for democracy.

00:35:37.180 It's also very

00:35:37.920 important for public

00:35:38.700 policy, right?

00:35:40.100 How can we make

00:35:41.420 informed decisions

00:35:43.640 when our field

00:35:45.920 of opinions

00:35:46.920 is limited?

00:35:48.080 Don't you want

00:35:48.980 a greater baseline

00:35:50.600 of opinions

00:35:51.640 so you can

00:35:52.520 consider,

00:35:53.660 so you can

00:35:54.100 weigh your

00:35:54.680 options,

00:35:55.880 informed options

00:35:56.940 and then come

00:35:57.940 to some sort

00:35:58.480 of consensus

00:35:59.320 as to what's

00:35:59.920 reasonable.

00:36:00.400 But when you

00:36:00.760 have silence,

00:36:03.020 when you don't

00:36:03.920 have opinion,

00:36:04.860 you inevitably

00:36:05.680 have blind spots

00:36:07.040 intentionally or

00:36:08.160 unintentionally.

00:36:09.380 And so it's not

00:36:10.220 just back for

00:36:10.700 democracy,

00:36:11.320 it's terrible

00:36:12.100 for public policy.

00:36:13.800 Right, right.

00:36:14.300 Well, that was

00:36:14.760 also,

00:36:16.020 we need to be

00:36:17.880 reminded,

00:36:18.540 one of the major

00:36:19.700 points of parliament

00:36:20.520 was to flesh

00:36:21.820 out the ideas

00:36:22.980 on a broad,

00:36:25.140 across the broad

00:36:26.020 range of political

00:36:26.840 ideas in as

00:36:28.040 broad a manner

00:36:28.600 as possible

00:36:29.300 to make policy

00:36:30.480 more subtle

00:36:31.200 and nuanced

00:36:31.880 and targeted

00:36:32.600 and appropriate.

00:36:33.860 It's part of

00:36:34.780 the process

00:36:35.300 of thinking.

00:36:36.740 And it's true 0.94

00:36:37.300 not just for

00:36:37.880 politics,

00:36:38.680 it's true for

00:36:39.800 business,

00:36:41.140 if you're coaching

00:36:42.060 a sports team,

00:36:43.080 it's true for

00:36:43.620 academia,

00:36:45.700 right,

00:36:46.760 and any good

00:36:47.320 manager will tell

00:36:48.120 you that the

00:36:49.300 best thing they

00:36:49.800 can do for

00:36:50.180 their business

00:36:50.540 is probably

00:36:51.000 to surround

00:36:51.640 themselves with

00:36:52.460 folks that

00:36:52.960 might disagree

00:36:53.460 with them

00:36:53.900 from time

00:36:54.640 to time.

00:36:56.000 And so I

00:36:56.620 don't know why

00:36:57.080 we resent that

00:36:57.880 in government,

00:36:59.320 this uniformity

00:37:00.520 of message.

00:37:02.240 Well,

00:37:02.600 Trudeau told us

00:37:03.960 why when he

00:37:04.560 told us that

00:37:05.120 he admired the

00:37:05.760 Chinese Communist 0.72

00:37:06.540 Party for their 1.00

00:37:07.320 efficiency and

00:37:08.100 decision-making

00:37:08.780 capacity in

00:37:09.980 relationship to

00:37:10.820 such things as

00:37:11.520 environmental policy.

00:37:13.160 Why bother with

00:37:14.120 all that messy

00:37:15.100 process of

00:37:16.080 consultation and

00:37:17.040 thought when

00:37:17.900 you already

00:37:18.380 have the

00:37:18.900 answers handed

00:37:19.620 down on high

00:37:20.600 and all you

00:37:21.320 need to do is

00:37:21.900 implement them as

00:37:22.680 quickly as

00:37:23.260 possible.

00:37:24.640 It's interesting

00:37:25.140 because that

00:37:26.120 moment, I think,

00:37:27.460 defined him very

00:37:28.320 much and we're

00:37:29.560 seeing that

00:37:30.160 hubris, that

00:37:31.900 arrogance, almost 0.85

00:37:34.360 dare I say,

00:37:36.400 thuggish approach

00:37:37.700 to others that

00:37:40.380 we're seeing

00:37:40.780 displayed from

00:37:41.320 the Prime

00:37:42.220 Minister, which

00:37:43.160 is why he's

00:37:43.880 now...

00:37:44.200 I don't know

00:37:45.900 if Canadians

00:37:46.460 have any idea

00:37:47.440 at all what

00:37:48.680 a devastating

00:37:49.540 hit the

00:37:50.620 international

00:37:51.160 reputation of

00:37:52.060 our country

00:37:52.540 has taken.

00:37:53.860 And so all

00:37:54.580 of the Eastern

00:37:55.180 Europeans, I

00:37:55.840 met a lot of

00:37:56.400 Eastern European

00:37:57.040 politicians in

00:37:57.980 my last tour

00:37:58.540 through Eastern

00:37:59.140 Europe, and

00:38:00.020 they are utterly

00:38:01.080 appalled by what's

00:38:02.200 happened in

00:38:02.680 Canada.

00:38:03.400 And then in

00:38:04.460 the United

00:38:04.800 States, even

00:38:06.560 among the

00:38:07.040 Democrats in

00:38:07.900 the United

00:38:08.200 States, the

00:38:09.440 fact that

00:38:09.960 Trudeau dared

00:38:10.820 to suggest

00:38:11.820 that American

00:38:13.320 Republicans

00:38:14.280 financed what

00:38:15.980 was essentially

00:38:16.780 an insurrection

00:38:17.560 attempt on

00:38:18.360 Canada's capital

00:38:19.320 is something so

00:38:20.860 jaw-dropping,

00:38:21.860 like I said,

00:38:22.440 even to the

00:38:22.920 leftists in the

00:38:23.800 US, the liberals

00:38:24.580 and the leftists,

00:38:25.520 that its

00:38:27.220 appalling and

00:38:28.600 absurd nature

00:38:29.280 can hardly be

00:38:30.100 overstated.

00:38:31.260 And then I'm

00:38:31.700 thinking too,

00:38:32.560 from a strategic

00:38:33.520 perspective,

00:38:34.220 although I don't

00:38:34.760 think he ever

00:38:35.260 does think

00:38:35.760 strategically,

00:38:36.960 it's obvious

00:38:37.720 to anyone with

00:38:38.800 eyes, that the 0.84

00:38:39.880 Democrats are

00:38:40.520 going to get

00:38:40.980 absolutely

00:38:41.720 lambasted in 1.00

00:38:42.880 November.

00:38:44.120 And that means

00:38:44.700 that, and then

00:38:45.800 probably in the

00:38:47.180 next presidential

00:38:47.860 election as well.

00:38:48.960 And so, in all

00:38:49.800 likelihood, Canada

00:38:50.700 is facing a

00:38:52.200 conservative-slash-

00:38:53.460 Republican-dominated

00:38:54.720 monolith in the

00:38:56.740 United States on

00:38:57.580 the governmental

00:38:58.020 front for the

00:38:58.800 next four or five

00:38:59.800 years after Biden

00:39:01.140 departs.

00:39:02.480 And that means

00:39:03.240 that Trudeau

00:39:03.900 essentially alienated

00:39:05.460 the biggest ally

00:39:07.040 that Canada has

00:39:08.000 by accusing

00:39:08.760 those very

00:39:09.480 same people

00:39:10.320 of fomenting

00:39:11.500 of all the

00:39:12.200 absurd things

00:39:12.920 anti-democratic

00:39:14.060 insurrection in

00:39:14.920 Canada.

00:39:15.760 It just boggles

00:39:16.920 the mind.

00:39:17.460 And then for him

00:39:18.080 to have frozen

00:39:18.820 bank accounts

00:39:19.520 as part of

00:39:20.020 the Emergency

00:39:20.460 Act, that

00:39:21.640 there isn't,

00:39:22.740 I don't think

00:39:23.240 I talked to

00:39:23.760 anyone in the

00:39:24.580 entire world

00:39:25.360 over the last

00:39:26.140 four months

00:39:26.920 who thought

00:39:27.740 that that was

00:39:28.460 anything

00:39:29.800 approximating,

00:39:30.880 a justifiable,

00:39:32.100 no, let's

00:39:32.660 not say

00:39:32.980 justifiable,

00:39:33.760 anything other

00:39:34.420 than an

00:39:34.860 absolutely

00:39:35.360 catastrophic

00:39:35.960 decision.

00:39:36.500 It shook

00:39:37.260 everyone's

00:39:38.120 faith in

00:39:38.540 the foundations

00:39:39.120 of both

00:39:39.960 Canadian

00:39:40.300 democracy

00:39:40.800 and the

00:39:41.200 Canadian

00:39:41.480 financial

00:39:41.960 system.

00:39:43.120 My first,

00:39:44.460 when I first

00:39:45.040 started practicing

00:39:45.620 law at a law

00:39:46.200 school, I

00:39:46.640 practiced commercial

00:39:47.680 litigation primarily.

00:39:49.200 And so I was

00:39:49.900 on the receiving

00:39:50.420 end of a bank

00:39:51.880 account frozen

00:39:52.420 and I froze a

00:39:53.180 number of

00:39:53.520 accounts.

00:39:54.320 And it's so

00:39:54.940 difficult to do

00:39:55.880 so in Canada

00:39:57.120 or the United

00:39:57.600 States.

00:39:57.980 You have to

00:39:58.420 meet a very

00:39:59.380 high evidentiary

00:40:00.380 threshold to

00:40:01.880 ask the court

00:40:02.800 to freeze a

00:40:03.320 bank account.

00:40:03.760 And here

00:40:04.560 essentially bank

00:40:06.220 accounts of

00:40:06.780 Canadians were

00:40:07.500 frozen on a

00:40:09.040 phone call,

00:40:09.720 right?

00:40:11.520 With no trial,

00:40:13.020 with no trial,

00:40:14.040 no hearing.

00:40:15.040 For something

00:40:15.560 that was made

00:40:16.480 retroactively,

00:40:17.940 arguably unlawful,

00:40:19.000 right?

00:40:19.180 It was

00:40:19.420 retroactively

00:40:20.220 unlawful.

00:40:21.440 And it wasn't

00:40:22.200 just bad for

00:40:23.160 our democracy.

00:40:24.020 It was terrible

00:40:24.660 for investor

00:40:25.980 confidence.

00:40:27.060 We know that

00:40:27.680 there was a

00:40:28.620 very material

00:40:29.260 risk of a run

00:40:30.160 on the bank.

00:40:30.860 And it's

00:40:32.240 not clear

00:40:33.120 that any

00:40:33.820 of that

00:40:34.260 in any

00:40:35.620 circumstance

00:40:36.860 was warranted.

00:40:37.760 But I want

00:40:38.220 to make an

00:40:38.560 interesting point

00:40:39.360 further to

00:40:40.720 you suggesting

00:40:41.680 that there are

00:40:42.080 Eastern European

00:40:42.760 parliamentarians

00:40:43.980 that doubt

00:40:45.460 whether Canada

00:40:46.020 is a democracy

00:40:46.600 anymore.

00:40:47.700 So you're

00:40:48.360 correct.

00:40:49.180 Generally,

00:40:49.840 I think that

00:40:50.500 our reputation

00:40:51.260 around the world

00:40:51.920 has suffered

00:40:52.340 immensely.

00:40:53.440 And so my

00:40:54.040 view on

00:40:54.500 foreign affairs

00:40:55.320 is we don't

00:40:56.680 have the

00:40:57.060 credibility

00:40:57.520 to opine

00:40:58.960 on world

00:40:59.520 events anymore

00:41:00.480 until we

00:41:02.140 fix our

00:41:03.220 democracy at

00:41:03.920 home,

00:41:04.180 which is

00:41:04.500 what my

00:41:05.200 run for

00:41:05.720 the conservative

00:41:06.140 leadership is

00:41:06.740 predicated on.

00:41:07.840 But it's

00:41:08.320 also Eastern

00:41:08.880 European

00:41:09.280 Canadians.

00:41:10.860 Not just

00:41:12.680 them, but

00:41:13.140 I like to

00:41:14.340 joke that if

00:41:14.800 you're from

00:41:15.140 an Eastern

00:41:15.460 European bloc

00:41:16.300 and myself

00:41:17.220 included,

00:41:18.120 you have been

00:41:18.780 very nervous

00:41:19.660 about what

00:41:20.640 you've been

00:41:20.960 seeing for

00:41:21.420 the last

00:41:21.740 couple of

00:41:22.140 years.

00:41:23.740 And that

00:41:24.420 is what

00:41:25.520 really scares

00:41:26.060 me.

00:41:26.600 And I'm

00:41:27.020 often asked,

00:41:28.000 do I see

00:41:28.400 any similarities

00:41:29.100 between what

00:41:30.240 I'm seeing

00:41:30.620 in Canada

00:41:31.100 today and

00:41:32.320 what I saw

00:41:33.060 in the

00:41:33.240 Soviet Union

00:41:33.720 as a kid?

00:41:34.900 And I'd

00:41:35.200 say, you

00:41:36.000 know, jokingly

00:41:36.580 sure, I mean,

00:41:36.940 the lineups to

00:41:37.520 the liquor

00:41:37.800 store, that's

00:41:38.660 always a

00:41:39.560 classic.

00:41:41.360 But beyond

00:41:42.400 that, it's

00:41:42.880 when government

00:41:43.520 engages in

00:41:44.740 remarkable

00:41:45.280 activity that

00:41:46.200 is predicated

00:41:46.880 on a false

00:41:47.560 narrative, when

00:41:49.300 it does

00:41:49.940 extraordinary

00:41:51.460 things, very

00:41:52.280 onerous, high

00:41:53.860 handed, running 0.99

00:41:54.520 rough shot over

00:41:55.500 people, knowing

00:41:56.600 that the

00:41:57.780 pretense for

00:41:58.620 such action,

00:41:59.760 the narrative

00:42:00.260 for such

00:42:00.740 is false.

00:42:02.200 That's

00:42:02.640 indicative of

00:42:04.040 those authoritarian

00:42:04.680 regimes.

00:42:05.360 And as I

00:42:05.660 said to you,

00:42:06.120 we knew, we

00:42:07.140 kept treating

00:42:07.840 the virus as

00:42:08.720 if this was

00:42:09.100 still March

00:42:09.660 or April

00:42:10.200 2020, as

00:42:11.240 if we

00:42:11.500 didn't learn

00:42:11.880 anything, we

00:42:12.780 continue this

00:42:13.440 onerous

00:42:13.920 response on

00:42:15.180 a false

00:42:15.800 narrative.

00:42:17.100 And that's

00:42:18.060 what probably

00:42:18.800 scares me most.

00:42:19.580 Because, Jordan,

00:42:20.060 if you can

00:42:20.840 engage in,

00:42:22.000 if government

00:42:22.380 can engage in

00:42:23.000 remarkable action

00:42:23.780 on false

00:42:24.280 narrative, then

00:42:25.500 it can do

00:42:26.440 essentially whatever

00:42:27.180 it wants for

00:42:28.020 as long as

00:42:28.600 it wants.

00:42:29.700 Yeah, well,

00:42:30.000 it's going to

00:42:30.440 do, the

00:42:30.780 Trudeau government

00:42:31.400 is going to

00:42:31.780 do exactly

00:42:32.380 the same

00:42:32.860 thing on

00:42:33.400 the environmental

00:42:33.960 front.

00:42:35.120 And there's

00:42:35.600 absolutely no

00:42:36.340 doubt about

00:42:36.820 that.

00:42:37.220 And they're

00:42:37.800 going to

00:42:38.200 ride this 1.00

00:42:38.880 idiot, 1.00

00:42:41.000 quasi-communist, 1.00

00:42:42.420 anti-capitalist

00:42:43.340 ethos that

00:42:44.020 they're pushing

00:42:44.520 like mad to

00:42:45.720 the ultimate

00:42:46.920 degree.

00:42:47.820 We've already

00:42:48.200 seen, most

00:42:49.440 recently this

00:42:50.180 week, some

00:42:50.880 of the

00:42:51.080 consequences of

00:42:51.860 that unfolding,

00:42:52.660 similar actions,

00:42:53.820 let's say,

00:42:54.180 unfolding in

00:42:54.800 Holland, where

00:42:55.360 the farmers,

00:42:56.440 although they

00:42:57.260 haven't got

00:42:57.780 much media

00:42:59.180 coverage,

00:42:59.880 surprise,

00:43:00.400 surprise, are

00:43:01.240 doing in

00:43:02.220 Holland something

00:43:03.160 or in the

00:43:03.540 Netherlands

00:43:03.820 something very

00:43:04.500 similar to

00:43:05.260 what the

00:43:05.560 truckers did

00:43:06.140 in Canada.

00:43:07.520 So the

00:43:08.140 Dutch government

00:43:08.760 has made it

00:43:09.320 very difficult

00:43:09.780 for farmers

00:43:10.380 to ply their

00:43:11.100 trade because

00:43:11.700 all they're

00:43:12.080 doing after

00:43:12.660 all is growing

00:43:13.360 food and

00:43:13.940 who's going

00:43:14.320 to need

00:43:14.620 that, let's

00:43:15.240 say, come

00:43:15.700 fall when

00:43:16.320 there's a

00:43:16.680 terrible

00:43:16.920 shortage.

00:43:18.680 And so we're

00:43:19.200 seeing the

00:43:19.820 consequences of

00:43:21.380 this top-down

00:43:22.160 heavy authoritarian

00:43:23.440 governance style in

00:43:25.140 Western countries

00:43:25.840 all over the

00:43:26.380 world.

00:43:27.680 You probably

00:43:28.500 already know that

00:43:29.320 there are data

00:43:29.840 brokers out there

00:43:30.620 selling your

00:43:31.300 internet data off

00:43:32.220 to companies who

00:43:32.920 want to serve you

00:43:33.720 a targeted ad.

00:43:34.880 But you might be

00:43:35.580 surprised to learn

00:43:36.280 that they're also

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00:44:26.880 slash Jordan.

00:44:28.420 Look, I think to

00:44:30.440 some extent now is

00:44:32.020 an opportunity to

00:44:33.160 have a conversation

00:44:34.100 with Canadians,

00:44:36.120 with I think

00:44:37.380 throughout the

00:44:37.900 world about where

00:44:39.240 the radical left

00:44:40.080 and radical left

00:44:40.960 wing ideology has

00:44:41.860 gotten us over the

00:44:42.580 last couple of

00:44:43.020 years.

00:44:43.880 I am seeing a 0.96

00:44:45.060 sense of optimism

00:44:45.840 because I think the

00:44:47.240 media is actually

00:44:47.860 churning on Justin

00:44:48.720 Trudeau.

00:44:49.600 We certainly see a

00:44:50.620 different conversation

00:44:51.280 in the United

00:44:51.740 States and so I

00:44:54.220 have a cause for

00:44:56.320 optimism that we

00:44:57.620 can get around

00:44:59.080 this.

00:44:59.600 But it's important

00:45:01.200 to note as we

00:45:02.520 talk about the

00:45:03.040 environment that I

00:45:04.500 think that what

00:45:05.520 transpired over the

00:45:06.700 last couple of

00:45:07.260 years has actually

00:45:08.880 resulted in

00:45:10.180 opportunity for

00:45:12.160 classical liberals,

00:45:13.560 for traditional

00:45:14.420 small d

00:45:15.440 Democrats to have 0.68

00:45:16.640 a conversation about

00:45:17.940 issues that we

00:45:18.580 couldn't speak about

00:45:19.300 before, right?

00:45:20.980 I think the

00:45:22.320 left has

00:45:22.860 overplayed its

00:45:23.840 hand with

00:45:24.700 COVID.

00:45:25.420 They overplayed

00:45:26.200 its hand.

00:45:27.480 And so now I

00:45:29.520 think Canadian

00:45:30.060 conservatives should

00:45:30.900 feel a lot more

00:45:31.720 comfortable to say

00:45:33.200 things that we

00:45:33.960 otherwise would not

00:45:34.980 have dreamt of

00:45:35.540 saying.

00:45:36.580 For instance, we

00:45:37.720 shouldn't be afraid

00:45:38.240 regardless.

00:45:39.120 But look, I think

00:45:40.740 that we should

00:45:41.180 comfortably say that

00:45:42.280 taxing Sally $10

00:45:44.160 at the gas pump

00:45:45.480 whenever she fills

00:45:46.280 up is probably

00:45:47.540 not going to

00:45:48.480 affect climate

00:45:49.200 change, right?

00:45:50.540 It's probably not

00:45:51.520 going to factor

00:45:52.440 into global

00:45:53.000 temperatures.

00:45:54.760 Canada produces

00:45:55.740 less than a

00:45:56.180 percent and a

00:45:56.660 half of all

00:45:57.520 global emissions

00:45:58.200 and it's not

00:45:58.740 clear that even

00:45:59.260 if we were to

00:45:59.860 cut all of

00:46:00.480 them, that it

00:46:01.280 would make a

00:46:01.900 material difference.

00:46:02.900 And so instead

00:46:03.340 we're just punishing

00:46:04.640 Canadians with

00:46:05.820 our environmental

00:46:06.580 policy.

00:46:07.680 That is something

00:46:08.300 that the

00:46:08.560 Conservative Party

00:46:09.160 had difficulty

00:46:09.960 articulating over

00:46:11.700 the last couple

00:46:12.080 of elections.

00:46:12.360 Well, and also

00:46:13.000 Canada could be

00:46:14.020 supplying cheap

00:46:15.720 and reliable

00:46:16.380 energy to the

00:46:17.260 U.S.

00:46:18.380 We could be

00:46:18.840 doing the same

00:46:19.480 for Europe.

00:46:20.160 We could be

00:46:20.520 doing the same

00:46:21.120 for China.

00:46:22.640 And we could

00:46:23.000 be, so we

00:46:23.740 could have our

00:46:24.320 cake on the

00:46:25.120 energy front

00:46:25.720 and eat it

00:46:26.200 too.

00:46:26.500 We could

00:46:26.760 provide clean

00:46:27.620 and carefully

00:46:29.300 regulated fossil

00:46:30.860 fuel energy

00:46:31.700 supplies on a

00:46:33.420 global scale.

00:46:34.480 We could make

00:46:35.160 ourselves much

00:46:35.800 more prosperous

00:46:36.480 than we already

00:46:37.340 are by using

00:46:38.180 our natural

00:46:38.700 resources properly

00:46:39.740 and we could

00:46:40.600 make advances on

00:46:41.560 the environmental

00:46:42.060 front.

00:46:42.500 We know, for

00:46:43.020 example, with

00:46:43.720 the Americans

00:46:44.300 that they cut

00:46:45.500 their carbon

00:46:46.000 output, for

00:46:46.960 those who are

00:46:47.480 concerned about

00:46:48.080 such things,

00:46:48.720 and I don't

00:46:49.180 happen to be

00:46:49.660 one of them

00:46:50.100 particularly,

00:46:50.740 but they cut

00:46:51.240 their carbon

00:46:51.840 output substantially

00:46:52.900 by turning to

00:46:54.020 fracking and

00:46:54.620 natural gas

00:46:55.260 utilization, and

00:46:56.140 no environmentalist

00:46:57.640 preacher saw

00:46:58.360 that coming.

00:46:59.900 I think Canada's 0.90

00:47:00.820 natural resources

00:47:01.540 are a blessing

00:47:02.200 and we should

00:47:03.360 not let, and I

00:47:04.200 certainly will

00:47:04.720 not let, oil

00:47:05.860 and gas be

00:47:06.520 cancelled.

00:47:06.980 And it's

00:47:07.200 important not

00:47:07.700 just for our

00:47:08.940 strategic and

00:47:09.900 national interest

00:47:10.420 and our economic

00:47:11.040 bottom line,

00:47:11.480 because that's

00:47:11.800 the only way

00:47:12.200 we're going

00:47:12.500 to get out

00:47:13.180 of our

00:47:13.600 economic hole.

00:47:14.500 But it's also

00:47:15.420 good for the

00:47:15.820 planet because

00:47:16.420 Canadians can

00:47:17.260 produce and

00:47:18.140 derive energy

00:47:18.880 cleaner and

00:47:19.960 safer than any

00:47:21.120 other nation

00:47:22.120 on earth.

00:47:23.600 And so I'm

00:47:24.360 very interested

00:47:24.840 not in just

00:47:25.940 oil and gas,

00:47:26.740 but mining.

00:47:27.660 We have an

00:47:28.280 insatiable

00:47:28.940 appetite around

00:47:29.720 the world for

00:47:30.920 precious metals

00:47:32.140 and minerals.

00:47:33.660 I'd like to

00:47:34.600 look into

00:47:35.420 natural gas as

00:47:36.760 well.

00:47:37.000 I think if

00:47:38.420 you're concerned

00:47:39.380 about the

00:47:39.800 environment,

00:47:40.380 then you

00:47:40.580 should certainly

00:47:41.220 be more

00:47:41.660 interested in

00:47:42.520 transporting oil

00:47:43.500 and gas by

00:47:44.080 pipeline instead

00:47:45.120 of transporting

00:47:45.620 oil by train,

00:47:46.640 which is very,

00:47:47.320 very risky.

00:47:49.000 I think, you

00:47:50.020 know, as we

00:47:50.800 come to think,

00:47:53.720 as we look at

00:47:54.660 this conversation,

00:47:55.900 I think that we

00:47:56.500 can solve almost

00:47:57.660 everything that

00:47:58.380 ails Canada right

00:47:59.380 now with

00:48:00.460 democracy and

00:48:01.600 natural resources.

00:48:03.260 If we just...

00:48:04.020 Yeah, well, you

00:48:04.480 know, it's

00:48:05.540 definitely the

00:48:06.160 case that the

00:48:06.800 conservatives on

00:48:07.640 the environmental

00:48:08.240 front could be

00:48:10.040 taking the moral

00:48:11.340 high ground back 1.00

00:48:12.120 from the idiot 1.00

00:48:12.760 environmentalists, 1.00

00:48:14.180 because these are

00:48:15.080 problems that we

00:48:15.960 can solve, and

00:48:17.180 the pathway to

00:48:17.960 solving them is

00:48:18.560 actually laid

00:48:19.120 forward quite

00:48:19.760 clearly, not

00:48:20.420 least by people

00:48:21.240 like Bjorn

00:48:21.800 Lomborg, who've

00:48:22.760 produced an

00:48:23.680 extremely detailed

00:48:24.780 roadmap, I would

00:48:25.740 say, of how to

00:48:26.360 move forward in

00:48:27.040 the face of the

00:48:27.980 climate changes that

00:48:28.920 we may perhaps be

00:48:30.020 contributing to.

00:48:31.080 We're obviously

00:48:31.780 going to be able to

00:48:32.480 adapt to them, and

00:48:33.200 they're nowhere near

00:48:33.820 as cataclysmic as

00:48:34.900 the doomsayers have

00:48:35.800 prognosticated

00:48:36.960 constantly from

00:48:38.160 Al Gore onward.

00:48:39.700 So we can do this,

00:48:40.960 and we could do it

00:48:41.740 while ensuring that

00:48:43.240 everyone had

00:48:44.140 abundant resources,

00:48:45.660 that the poor

00:48:46.180 didn't have to

00:48:46.920 freeze in the dark,

00:48:48.000 which seems to be

00:48:48.840 the leftist

00:48:49.820 environmental approach

00:48:50.880 to the problem.

00:48:52.040 It's like, who cares

00:48:52.740 about today's poor

00:48:53.740 when we have poor

00:48:55.200 in a hundred years

00:48:55.960 to worry about?

00:48:57.180 You know, a pretty

00:48:57.940 sad bit of

00:48:59.160 moralizing, and

00:49:00.200 obviously, one,

00:49:01.220 this war in Russia

00:49:03.200 with the Ukraine

00:49:04.600 and with the West

00:49:05.480 in general has

00:49:06.220 certainly brought

00:49:06.760 home one of the

00:49:07.920 consequences of 1.00

00:49:08.880 what foolish 0.99

00:49:10.740 environmentally 0.98

00:49:11.640 predicated energy

00:49:12.680 policy.

00:49:13.600 That's another thing

00:49:14.400 that Canada can play

00:49:15.220 a role in

00:49:15.700 ameliorating.

00:49:16.900 We don't just

00:49:17.740 can't do this,

00:49:18.900 we must do this.

00:49:20.700 Yes.

00:49:21.160 You know, half of

00:49:22.240 Canadians, there are a

00:49:23.500 lot of estimates,

00:49:24.320 even before the most

00:49:25.880 recent inflationary

00:49:26.760 crisis, is that almost

00:49:27.620 half of Canadians

00:49:28.620 were $200 away

00:49:30.320 from not being able

00:49:31.800 to meet their

00:49:32.300 monthly obligations.

00:49:33.780 And so now, with

00:49:34.600 the price of gas

00:49:35.520 effectively doubling

00:49:36.420 and the price of

00:49:37.840 everything, and most

00:49:39.340 notably food,

00:49:40.640 significantly increasing,

00:49:42.380 Canadian, many

00:49:43.100 Canadian families

00:49:43.840 are vulnerable.

00:49:45.460 And we cannot

00:49:46.320 continue to have

00:49:48.120 this conversation

00:49:48.740 over and over.

00:49:49.480 We need to get

00:49:49.900 serious and at least

00:49:50.940 telegraph to the

00:49:51.740 market that we're

00:49:52.740 willing to start,

00:49:54.500 and we're determined

00:49:55.400 to develop Canada's

00:49:56.860 natural resources

00:49:57.580 that will immediately

00:49:58.380 give people some

00:50:00.240 relief.

00:50:01.020 And which is why I'm

00:50:02.280 really worried also,

00:50:03.560 Jordan, if I may,

00:50:04.180 very quickly, I'm

00:50:05.400 nervous about what's

00:50:07.420 happening by way of

00:50:09.160 our monetary policy.

00:50:10.700 So much of this

00:50:11.480 inflation is driven

00:50:12.820 by food and energy

00:50:14.540 that I'm not sure

00:50:15.780 that aggressive

00:50:16.920 tightening of our

00:50:18.160 monetary policy is

00:50:19.580 going to make the

00:50:20.500 traditional difference

00:50:21.760 that tightening

00:50:22.540 would.

00:50:23.660 And instead, what

00:50:24.380 we're doing is we're

00:50:25.240 significantly increasing

00:50:26.640 the cost of borrowing,

00:50:28.560 which means we're

00:50:29.060 increasing the cost

00:50:29.840 of living on many

00:50:31.660 Canadians.

00:50:33.060 Yeah, that's exactly

00:50:34.420 right.

00:50:34.820 Well, there are

00:50:35.620 actually food shortages

00:50:37.240 and they're going to

00:50:38.060 get a lot worse,

00:50:38.880 especially with the

00:50:39.640 fertilizer crisis.

00:50:41.160 And so this

00:50:41.960 inflation isn't

00:50:43.640 merely a consequence

00:50:44.760 of runaway

00:50:45.400 monetary policy.

00:50:46.840 Precisely.

00:50:47.460 Yeah, it is quite

00:50:48.760 the situation.

00:50:49.860 You know, you could

00:50:50.360 have hardly hoped

00:50:51.380 for a worse outcome

00:50:52.360 to entice Canadians

00:50:53.640 into over-investing

00:50:55.020 on margin

00:50:55.560 in real estate

00:50:56.360 and then cranking

00:50:57.480 up the interest

00:50:58.020 rates to cut

00:50:59.340 them off at the 0.94

00:50:59.960 knees, which is

00:51:00.800 exactly what's

00:51:01.520 happening at the

00:51:02.160 moment.

00:51:02.580 It's important to

00:51:03.180 appreciate that our

00:51:03.880 housing industry

00:51:04.820 accounts for about

00:51:05.500 a third of our

00:51:06.140 economy.

00:51:07.240 And for many

00:51:07.780 people, it's

00:51:08.960 their life

00:51:09.580 investment, right?

00:51:10.680 Their principal

00:51:11.360 residence can be

00:51:12.580 their way to save

00:51:13.280 for retirement.

00:51:14.040 And the fact that

00:51:14.700 we continue to

00:51:16.180 try and undermine

00:51:17.660 the market, even

00:51:19.120 though we have to

00:51:19.700 focus on affordability

00:51:20.540 for sure, but we

00:51:21.620 also want to

00:51:22.220 preserve value for

00:51:23.300 people that work

00:51:24.180 hard for it.

00:51:25.060 But beyond that,

00:51:25.780 yes, the main

00:51:26.600 cause, in my

00:51:27.500 view, for what's

00:51:28.380 transpiring is not

00:51:29.780 just the printing.

00:51:30.920 We printed half a

00:51:31.960 trillion dollars in

00:51:32.800 Canada with nothing

00:51:34.140 to show for it.

00:51:35.400 But beyond that, it's

00:51:36.640 the lockdowns, in my

00:51:38.000 view, that are

00:51:38.960 responsible for this

00:51:39.800 runaway inflation.

00:51:41.000 We essentially, we

00:51:42.220 stopped the supply

00:51:43.080 chain at its tracks

00:51:43.960 a number of times.

00:51:44.980 We reopened the

00:51:45.920 economy, so there's

00:51:46.700 obviously a spike in

00:51:47.920 demand, and supply is

00:51:49.280 simply not catching up

00:51:50.360 to demand.

00:51:51.020 The market is out of

00:51:52.280 equilibrium.

00:51:52.380 You just can't get

00:51:53.020 anything.

00:51:54.040 You know, Penguin

00:51:54.820 Random House informed

00:51:56.000 me that they couldn't

00:51:56.820 put out a double 0.99

00:51:57.500 edition of my book in

00:51:58.960 any reasonable amount

00:51:59.920 of time, my two

00:52:00.640 books, because they

00:52:01.480 can't get cardboard or

00:52:02.440 paper.

00:52:03.380 That's Penguin Random

00:52:04.300 House.

00:52:04.940 A sheet of plywood in

00:52:05.860 British Columbia is now

00:52:06.800 $100.

00:52:07.680 You can't buy a vehicle

00:52:09.040 for love nor money.

00:52:10.780 Most large-scale

00:52:12.180 appliances and that

00:52:14.040 sort of thing,

00:52:14.600 especially those that

00:52:15.380 depend on chips, are

00:52:16.340 in unbelievably scarce

00:52:17.460 supply.

00:52:18.540 And one in five

00:52:19.640 container ships right

00:52:21.260 now across the world

00:52:22.340 is locked in a port

00:52:23.960 somewhere, unable to

00:52:25.480 move because of

00:52:26.540 backups.

00:52:27.580 Like, we have no idea

00:52:28.580 how much damage we did

00:52:29.640 to the supply chain, and

00:52:30.920 we are by no means done

00:52:32.480 with that catastrophe.

00:52:34.240 No.

00:52:35.200 I like to joke, my Jeep

00:52:37.000 started misfiring, and I

00:52:38.280 gave it to the

00:52:39.240 dealership, and they

00:52:40.280 told me it's going to

00:52:40.920 take three weeks because

00:52:41.760 there are no car parts.

00:52:43.300 So there's no car parts,

00:52:44.920 not because we printed

00:52:48.100 so much money, but

00:52:49.160 because we simply

00:52:50.160 stopped the supply

00:52:51.560 chain in its tracks.

00:52:52.360 But there's another

00:52:52.920 reason for all of

00:52:53.960 this, and I think that

00:52:54.640 that's the tragedy of

00:52:56.180 the labor market, that

00:52:57.240 is the remarkable,

00:52:58.760 unprecedented

00:52:59.220 catastrophe in our

00:53:01.120 labor market.

00:53:02.620 Canadians have

00:53:03.740 already suffered from

00:53:05.520 low productivity before

00:53:06.660 the pandemic, but what

00:53:08.140 I'm seeing right now

00:53:08.840 in speaking to many

00:53:09.600 Canadians and small

00:53:11.100 businesses and medium

00:53:12.140 businesses, businesses

00:53:12.860 of all sizes, is

00:53:14.520 that there's a

00:53:14.960 remarkable shortage of

00:53:16.240 labor, and even

00:53:17.600 though it appears as

00:53:18.680 if we're back to

00:53:20.040 almost full employment,

00:53:21.140 we're just north of

00:53:21.900 5% unemployment, which

00:53:23.320 seems good, but

00:53:23.940 productivity has not

00:53:25.000 come back.

00:53:25.820 People are working

00:53:26.540 less, people are not,

00:53:28.660 those, some continue

00:53:29.860 to work remotely, so

00:53:30.800 productivity is down.

00:53:32.740 And you know,

00:53:33.580 primarily what I'm

00:53:34.500 noticing, and that's

00:53:35.480 something that I talk

00:53:36.100 about a lot, is that

00:53:37.480 the labor force has

00:53:38.780 suffered a post-trauma

00:53:40.800 from COVID.

00:53:41.600 A lot of, I think,

00:53:44.040 Canadians and others

00:53:45.580 around the world feel

00:53:47.260 that something was

00:53:48.620 materially lost in the

00:53:49.680 last couple of years.

00:53:50.700 They're losing faith in

00:53:51.580 institutions, they're

00:53:52.840 estranged from their

00:53:53.520 family, they're seeing

00:53:55.180 erosion of their

00:53:55.820 democracy, nothing's

00:53:57.560 fun anymore, and so

00:53:59.000 that, of course,

00:54:00.080 translates itself into

00:54:01.040 productivity, and until

00:54:02.780 we restore productivity,

00:54:04.360 we will not catch up on

00:54:05.500 supply, and we will not

00:54:07.080 be able to catch up

00:54:07.920 with inflation.

00:54:08.060 That's a consequence

00:54:08.260 of demoralization.

00:54:09.440 Yeah, well, Canadians, 0.92

00:54:11.440 what, we're 35% now

00:54:13.420 behind the Americans in

00:54:14.840 terms of comparative

00:54:15.620 productivity, and the

00:54:16.940 OECD has prognosticated

00:54:18.700 that we'll be the worst

00:54:19.800 performing industrial

00:54:20.860 economy in the world for

00:54:22.800 the next 40 years.

00:54:24.600 It's a disaster.

00:54:25.200 That's what Canadians are

00:54:26.140 facing.

00:54:26.540 So that means, in all

00:54:27.680 likelihood, we'll be half

00:54:29.560 as wealthy as the

00:54:30.440 Americans in 10 years.

00:54:32.240 That's what it looks

00:54:33.100 like now.

00:54:33.900 When we could be more

00:54:35.020 wealth, we could be

00:54:35.840 wealthier and more

00:54:36.500 prosperous than any

00:54:37.360 nation on earth with

00:54:38.280 reasonable policy.

00:54:40.200 I'm not sure how we

00:54:42.220 get out of this in the

00:54:43.240 short term, but I know

00:54:44.380 the following for a fact

00:54:46.160 is that as soon as

00:54:47.700 Canadians start feeling

00:54:49.000 that this public health

00:54:50.840 episode is behind us,

00:54:53.000 when we feel that we no

00:54:54.860 longer need government

00:54:55.900 intervention, those that

00:54:56.920 perceive risk should

00:54:59.220 certainly are welcome to

00:55:01.280 take mitigation steps,

00:55:03.120 but for many Canadians to

00:55:05.680 continue to worry, are

00:55:06.940 they going to lose their

00:55:07.720 job if they don't take

00:55:08.960 a booster?

00:55:09.940 Are they going to have

00:55:10.720 to work a minimum wage

00:55:14.080 job again if they have

00:55:15.620 to wear a mask for eight

00:55:16.760 hours?

00:55:17.720 Are they going to be told

00:55:19.860 that they might not be

00:55:21.700 able to go to school

00:55:22.540 again next year?

00:55:24.380 While government still

00:55:26.180 remains in our faces, so

00:55:28.020 to speak, the labor force

00:55:30.000 has a difficulty recovering.

00:55:31.660 We need to give people a

00:55:32.920 relief by extricating

00:55:35.020 government out of our

00:55:36.000 lives as quickly as

00:55:36.820 possible.

00:55:38.660 Yeah, well, God only

00:55:39.420 knows what's going to

00:55:40.200 happen when we face the

00:55:41.340 next serious flu, because

00:55:43.800 the mortality rate for

00:55:45.560 COVID wasn't that high, and

00:55:47.040 as you pointed out, most

00:55:48.680 of the people who died

00:55:49.700 were very elderly, often

00:55:52.280 already passed their

00:55:53.740 stated life expectancy in

00:55:55.620 the vast majority of

00:55:56.580 cases, and also suffered

00:55:58.280 from a number of

00:55:59.320 comorbidities.

00:56:00.940 And so, and there's going

00:56:02.480 to be a serious flu

00:56:03.400 epidemic in the near

00:56:04.800 future, because we

00:56:05.580 haven't had a serious

00:56:06.520 flu for a number of

00:56:07.520 years.

00:56:07.960 And so, it's an open

00:56:09.140 question now, what

00:56:10.660 mortality rate will be

00:56:12.060 deemed acceptable by the

00:56:13.440 public health mavens and

00:56:14.860 authoritarians who've now

00:56:16.040 come to run the

00:56:16.740 government, and to

00:56:18.260 provide us with the

00:56:19.200 excuse to lock down yet

00:56:20.420 again.

00:56:21.140 Like, what if the next

00:56:22.020 flu is half as deadly as

00:56:23.580 we thought COVID was

00:56:24.620 going to be?

00:56:25.180 Are we going to lock

00:56:25.900 everyone down again?

00:56:27.380 And if not, why not?

00:56:28.740 Where's the line?

00:56:29.440 Now that we've

00:56:30.040 established the

00:56:31.160 precedent following in

00:56:32.640 the aftermath of the

00:56:33.640 bloody CCP

00:56:34.940 authoritarians, what,

00:56:37.560 what, what, it's no

00:56:38.800 wonder that people feel

00:56:39.660 that something has been

00:56:40.500 lost, because something

00:56:42.120 was lost.

00:56:43.220 So, this is why it's so

00:56:44.180 important that history

00:56:45.140 reflects on what

00:56:45.960 happened fairly, right?

00:56:47.500 I never sought to

00:56:48.620 minimize the risk of

00:56:50.240 COVID.

00:56:50.680 It can be a very serious

00:56:51.880 infection for certain

00:56:53.360 folks, and it can

00:56:54.520 regretfully be deadly

00:56:55.580 for some.

00:56:56.580 But that doesn't mean

00:56:57.700 that we don't need to

00:56:58.940 be forefront about

00:57:01.080 objective metrics.

00:57:02.540 It doesn't mean that

00:57:03.300 we don't need to factor

00:57:04.280 the collateral harm and

00:57:05.880 potentially rethink our

00:57:07.120 response.

00:57:07.880 But beyond that, I

00:57:09.340 think it's very

00:57:09.920 important that history

00:57:11.420 regards this episode

00:57:13.340 fairly, because

00:57:14.700 Canadians, Americans,

00:57:16.520 people all over the

00:57:17.120 world, in the free

00:57:18.400 world, have been

00:57:19.160 subjected to

00:57:20.480 unprecedented government

00:57:22.300 tactics, right?

00:57:24.200 The censorship, the

00:57:25.420 segregation, the

00:57:26.640 psychological

00:57:27.140 manipulation, and

00:57:28.780 if that narrative

00:57:29.860 somehow prevails, and

00:57:31.920 it suggests that it

00:57:32.580 saved lives, then

00:57:34.480 we will never fully

00:57:36.040 get our democracy

00:57:37.380 back, and we will

00:57:38.220 never fully go back

00:57:39.240 to normal.

00:57:39.880 And those are two

00:57:40.580 propositions that I

00:57:41.400 find unacceptable.

00:57:42.340 We have to get our

00:57:43.180 democracy back, we

00:57:44.200 have to go back to

00:57:45.060 normal.

00:57:46.080 And that will also

00:57:47.240 help us deal with

00:57:48.300 potentially the next

00:57:49.120 public health crisis,

00:57:50.200 because we should

00:57:51.540 have the courage to

00:57:53.020 address it professionally

00:57:54.160 and objectively.

00:57:55.360 So let's turn a bit

00:58:00.380 now to the actual

00:58:01.580 Conservative Party

00:58:02.600 race.

00:58:03.800 And I just looked at

00:58:06.160 some stats this

00:58:07.420 morning about

00:58:08.260 popularity polling

00:58:10.120 within the

00:58:10.660 Conservative Party

00:58:11.460 itself.

00:58:12.660 And there were six

00:58:14.780 candidates, although

00:58:15.640 my understanding is

00:58:16.840 that Patrick Brown

00:58:17.720 has now withdrawn

00:58:20.300 from the leadership

00:58:21.080 race.

00:58:21.560 So there are five

00:58:23.660 remaining, if I have

00:58:25.120 that right.

00:58:26.680 And Pierre Poliev

00:58:28.740 clearly has the lead,

00:58:30.800 and Jean Charest is

00:58:32.360 clearly in second

00:58:33.340 place.

00:58:34.340 I asked Charest's

00:58:35.700 people, by the way,

00:58:36.800 if he wanted to

00:58:39.360 speak with me on

00:58:40.760 this podcast.

00:58:41.540 As I said, I've

00:58:43.320 extended an opportunity

00:58:44.280 to all of the

00:58:45.420 leaders.

00:58:46.460 And the response I

00:58:48.580 received, as far as I

00:58:49.680 can tell, although it

00:58:50.580 wasn't exactly that

00:58:51.480 clear, was that the

00:58:53.200 Charest people decided I

00:58:54.360 was too toxic to

00:58:55.440 associate with the

00:58:56.580 aftermath of the tweet

00:58:57.700 I put out about a

00:58:58.640 swimsuit illustrated

00:58:59.560 model.

00:58:59.960 And I guess they

00:59:00.920 thought that was a

00:59:01.880 scandal, which was

00:59:03.220 quite surprising to me

00:59:04.300 because it was a

00:59:05.020 tempest in a teapot.

00:59:06.300 But in any case,

00:59:07.860 Poliev seems to have 1.00

00:59:08.880 about 45% of the

00:59:11.120 popular support among

00:59:12.960 those who are going to

00:59:13.780 vote in the

00:59:14.720 Conservative

00:59:15.120 Leadership race,

00:59:16.220 and Charest about

00:59:16.860 14.

00:59:17.520 And then you and

00:59:18.900 Leslyn Lewis and

00:59:19.940 Scott Aitchison are

00:59:20.960 bringing up the

00:59:22.080 rear.

00:59:22.800 What do you expect

00:59:24.020 and hope to, what

00:59:25.240 do you hope to

00:59:25.800 accomplish by your

00:59:26.920 leadership race?

00:59:27.860 And what do you

00:59:29.220 see as the future

00:59:30.140 for the Conservative

00:59:30.980 Party as the vote

00:59:33.320 occurs and there's a

00:59:34.420 new leader?

00:59:36.500 And how do you hope

00:59:38.320 to play a role in

00:59:39.160 that?

00:59:40.520 So, look, of course,

00:59:41.640 we still see a path

00:59:42.560 to winning, although

00:59:43.800 I'm not under any

00:59:45.420 illusion that we are

00:59:47.560 not in first or

00:59:49.320 second place.

00:59:50.120 I will not comment on

00:59:51.820 my friends and how

00:59:52.880 they perceive or choose

00:59:54.020 to conduct the race.

00:59:54.960 I think it's important

00:59:56.300 for the electorate

00:59:57.700 itself to evaluate

00:59:59.220 our respective

01:00:01.060 positions and

01:00:02.040 approach to the race

01:00:03.020 because this is really

01:00:04.500 an audition for the

01:00:05.260 general election.

01:00:06.520 But what I think is

01:00:08.380 important that I've

01:00:10.000 been blessed to

01:00:10.560 contribute to the

01:00:11.240 conversation, I'm

01:00:12.480 glad that many of

01:00:13.840 the Conservative

01:00:14.960 candidates are coming

01:00:16.060 around on this

01:00:16.920 question of

01:00:17.680 democracy.

01:00:18.940 Initially, a lot of

01:00:19.900 the media speculated

01:00:20.600 that Roman's just 1.00

01:00:21.220 going to talk about

01:00:21.760 COVID and lockdown

01:00:22.420 and that's behind

01:00:23.080 us.

01:00:23.620 Well, first of all,

01:00:24.140 20%, almost 20% of

01:00:25.480 Canadians are still

01:00:26.240 treated differentially,

01:00:27.040 so it's certainly

01:00:27.920 not behind us.

01:00:29.120 But beyond that,

01:00:30.300 now we're seeing all

01:00:32.540 the other camps coming

01:00:33.900 around to our

01:00:34.540 democracy message and

01:00:35.900 so that is certainly

01:00:37.580 something that I was

01:00:38.260 very much hopeful for

01:00:39.620 and grateful for that

01:00:40.700 we get to push.

01:00:41.960 And second of all,

01:00:42.860 I think that insisting

01:00:44.720 that our party is not

01:00:45.880 afraid to stand for

01:00:47.560 what it believes and

01:00:48.580 that we speak with

01:00:49.240 clarity, something that

01:00:50.120 I've tried to do

01:00:51.060 throughout my career in

01:00:51.800 the last couple of

01:00:52.340 years, is something

01:00:53.840 that I will demand

01:00:54.760 and expect from the

01:00:57.220 leadership of this

01:00:57.920 party, the future

01:00:58.440 leadership of this

01:00:59.100 party, as the voters

01:01:00.220 expect it from us.

01:01:01.180 And that's the only

01:01:01.880 way we're going to

01:01:03.240 prevail with Canadians 0.89

01:01:05.060 is when they believe

01:01:06.640 what we say and when

01:01:08.780 we speak clearly and

01:01:09.860 we're not afraid to

01:01:11.700 stand up for all

01:01:12.520 Canadians, unlike in

01:01:13.620 the last couple of

01:01:14.200 years.

01:01:15.540 Is there, I think we

01:01:17.200 should switch over to

01:01:18.300 the other portion of

01:01:20.280 this conversation.

01:01:21.080 For those of you who

01:01:22.400 are listening, I'm

01:01:23.400 going to talk to Mr.

01:01:24.640 Babers some more 0.99

01:01:25.380 behind the, on the

01:01:27.420 Daily Wire Plus

01:01:28.180 website.

01:01:29.200 We're going to talk a

01:01:29.920 little bit more

01:01:30.580 personally, I would say.

01:01:31.900 Is there anything else,

01:01:33.800 Roman, that you would

01:01:34.540 like to bring to the

01:01:35.520 attention of Canadians?

01:01:36.560 You sort of summed up

01:01:37.820 there by pointing out

01:01:38.840 that, you know, you

01:01:40.020 got pilloried pretty hard

01:01:41.100 for speaking your mind

01:01:42.220 and the leadership

01:01:43.520 convention and race

01:01:45.560 offers you, or the

01:01:46.760 leadership race offers

01:01:47.640 you an opportunity to

01:01:48.540 speak your mind again

01:01:49.360 and show that that is

01:01:50.240 possible and to

01:01:51.060 bring these attention,

01:01:52.180 these issues to the

01:01:53.820 attention of Canadians,

01:01:55.280 which seems to me to

01:01:56.040 be a very valid

01:01:57.300 ambition.

01:01:58.640 Is there anything else

01:01:59.500 that you'd like to say

01:02:00.400 to people before we

01:02:01.480 move to the second

01:02:03.040 part of this

01:02:03.540 conversation?

01:02:04.760 I don't see myself as

01:02:06.400 a victim of the

01:02:07.320 cancel culture mob. 0.96

01:02:08.480 On the contrary, I

01:02:09.560 saw what transpired

01:02:11.480 as a remarkable

01:02:12.460 blessing.

01:02:13.920 I came to Canada

01:02:14.940 when I was 15.

01:02:15.920 We didn't have a

01:02:16.500 cent to our name

01:02:17.400 and I've had every

01:02:18.640 blessing this country

01:02:19.700 had to offer.

01:02:20.440 And I would encourage

01:02:21.700 Canadians not to give

01:02:22.860 up on Canada.

01:02:23.660 I've always felt that

01:02:24.540 this is the best country

01:02:25.920 in the world because all

01:02:26.620 you need to do to succeed

01:02:27.440 in Canada is work hard and

01:02:28.560 be nice to people.

01:02:29.680 And if you just do those

01:02:30.600 two things, then everything

01:02:31.400 will be okay and we get to

01:02:32.400 do that and still keep our

01:02:33.920 religious and cultural

01:02:34.660 values and we get to be

01:02:35.680 ourselves.

01:02:36.740 And I have a sense of

01:02:38.740 optimism, as I said to you

01:02:40.180 in the beginning of this

01:02:40.780 interview, that even the

01:02:42.360 media is turning on

01:02:43.100 Justin Trudeau.

01:02:44.380 And so many things that

01:02:46.340 we're concerned about that

01:02:47.180 ail us right now, we can

01:02:48.280 solve them.

01:02:48.720 As I said, we just need

01:02:49.940 democracy and natural

01:02:51.140 resources that would

01:02:52.080 alleviate a lot of the

01:02:53.380 concern we have right now.

01:02:54.820 As soon as government

01:02:55.640 extricates itself out of

01:02:56.840 our lives, we're going to

01:02:57.640 breathe a sigh of relief.

01:03:00.000 We know what to do to

01:03:02.000 solve this and I'm

01:03:04.360 incredibly grateful to

01:03:06.300 so many Canadians coast to

01:03:07.560 coast with whom my

01:03:08.980 message of democracy has

01:03:10.260 resonated.

01:03:11.280 And I'm also thankful to

01:03:13.600 all of my friends in this

01:03:14.460 race.

01:03:14.780 We have record membership

01:03:15.800 leadership of 675,000

01:03:17.620 members.

01:03:18.420 It's something to the

01:03:19.860 credit of all of them and

01:03:21.280 it's something to be proud

01:03:22.160 of because that means we're

01:03:23.500 bringing a large motivated

01:03:24.880 base into our next election.

01:03:26.980 We have to emerge out of

01:03:28.240 this united and firm.

01:03:30.680 We cannot give up on our

01:03:31.860 country, nor do we need to.

01:03:33.480 We are a wonderful country

01:03:35.000 and I'm optimistic about the

01:03:36.120 future.

01:03:37.840 Great.

01:03:38.340 Well, that's a lovely place

01:03:39.300 to end.

01:03:39.840 And so thank you very much.

01:03:41.660 I've been speaking today

01:03:42.540 with Mr. Roman Baber who

01:03:44.020 is running for the

01:03:45.420 leadership of the Federal

01:03:46.420 Conservative Party in

01:03:47.580 Canada, hoping to lead

01:03:49.520 that party and then to

01:03:50.580 challenge the

01:03:51.600 reprehensible, shall we

01:03:53.040 say, Justin Trudeau for

01:03:54.880 the position of Prime

01:03:55.960 Minister of Canada in the

01:03:57.360 next election, which

01:03:58.360 can't come too soon in my

01:04:00.240 humble estimation.

01:04:01.620 Thank you very much for

01:04:03.080 speaking with me today.

01:04:04.740 Thank you so much,

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The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast - July 25, 2022

273. Conservative Resistance in Canada ｜ Roman Baber

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