282. Mean Tweets： an apologia ｜ Pageau & Hurwitz
Summary
Dr. Jordan Peterson has created a new series that could be a lifeline for those battling depression and anxiety. With decades of experience helping patients, Dr. Peterson offers a unique understanding of why you might be feeling this way, and offers a roadmap towards healing. In his new series, he provides a roadmap toward healing, showing that while the journey isn t easy, it s absolutely possible to find your way forward. If you re suffering, please know you are not alone. There s hope, and there s a path to feeling better. Go to Dailywire Plus now and start watching Dr. Jordan B. Peterson on Depression and Anxiety. Let s take a first step towards the brighter future you deserve. Dr. B.P. is a Canadian clinical psychologist, author, and public speaker. He is the author of The Subtle Art of Not Giving a Fucking F#ck: A Guide to Transracialism and Transphobia. His work has been featured in the New York Times, CNN, NPR, and the BBC. He is a regular contributor to The Huffington Post, and is a frequent contributor to Salon, and a frequent guest on the BBC Radio 4. His work can be found online here. Thank you for listening and supporting this podcast. If you like what you hear, please consider becoming a patron patron of Daily Wire Plus. Don t forget to SUBSCRIBE and leave us a rating and review our podcast on Apple Podcasts! Subscribe to our new podcast, wherever you get your favourite podcast releases are available. You can also become a patron. It helps us spread the word out there about what we're listening to us on social media and other resources like it helps us reach more people like you can help us reach even more people in the world more effectively and reach them more of their potential, more of those who need us on the most influential influencers and support us in the most effective ways possible. Thanks for listening to our podcast, and more of us everywhere we can reach out to others like you, everywhere they can reach more of our potential, and we can be reachable through the world through the internet, everywhere we get a better listening and a better place like that helps us more of your voice matters more of a place like this, more like that we can connect more of people like us, a better of a chance to reach them in the best of a listening experience thank you, thank you more of and more.
Transcript
00:00:00.940
Hey everyone, real quick before you skip, I want to talk to you about something serious and important.
00:00:06.480
Dr. Jordan Peterson has created a new series that could be a lifeline for those battling depression and anxiety.
00:00:12.740
We know how isolating and overwhelming these conditions can be, and we wanted to take a moment to reach out to those listening who may be struggling.
00:00:20.100
With decades of experience helping patients, Dr. Peterson offers a unique understanding of why you might be feeling this way in his new series.
00:00:27.420
He provides a roadmap towards healing, showing that while the journey isn't easy, it's absolutely possible to find your way forward.
00:00:35.360
If you're suffering, please know you are not alone. There's hope, and there's a path to feeling better.
00:00:41.780
Go to Daily Wire Plus now and start watching Dr. Jordan B. Peterson on depression and anxiety.
00:00:47.460
Let this be the first step towards the brighter future you deserve.
00:01:09.520
I needed to write and read a very careful intro to this podcast episode, as it deals with particularly tricky and contentious matters.
00:01:19.280
So please forgive the deviation from spontaneity that such writing and reading necessarily requires.
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The discussion that follows this intro is as free-flowing as might be hoped for, if that is some consolation.
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In 2016, I released three videos on YouTube, commentaries on a law being passed at the federal level in Canada, Bill C-16,
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purporting to grant protected status to people with uncertain so-called gender identities,
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but in my opinion, constituting an unwarranted intrusion into the socially necessary and fundamentally important domain of free speech.
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Those videos went viral for reasons that are still not exactly clear.
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I believed at the time that the introduction of confusion regarding the conceptualization and terminology of masculine and feminine identity
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would produce far more trouble than it would cure.
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More specifically, that it would produce a psychogenic epidemic among vulnerable young women around the age of puberty,
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experiencing the onset of increased negative emotion characteristic of that age and sex.
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This is exactly and precisely what has happened, and it's not good, and it has to stop.
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In any case, my objection in these videos and some subsequent interviews,
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most famously, I suppose, with Kathy Newman of Channel 4 News,
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with Joe Rogan multiple times, with Helen Lewis of GQ,
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as well as two books I wrote in recent years in a lecture series on Genesis,
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brought me to what has been increasingly broad public attention.
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with the attendant cost of severe and often exceptionally caustic criticism.
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I have now talked with at least a hundred people who have also been made into public targets.
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Without exception, it has struck them to the core,
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alienated them too often from family and friends,
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and driven not a few into psychiatric care or wards.
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Everyone mobbed reacts as if they have contracted a potentially fatal illness,
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and the social media environment we now inhabit enables those who are prone to form mobs
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I've been criticized for my own online behavior.
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Many people have told me that I've been too harsh,
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particularly in tone, particularly when reading articles about political or cultural issues
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that have also been typically published in newspaper form.
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And I have found myself in substantive trouble as a consequence of Twitter.
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At the moment, the College of Psychologists of Ontario,
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which is the governing body of such professionals,
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has seen fit to launch an investigation into 10 or so complaints.
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That have been levied against me because of what I have said
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on that oft-pathological snake pit of a platform.
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Now, it is true that such governing bodies have become appallingly corrupt in recent years
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on the medical, legal, and psychological fronts.
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Anyone, anywhere in the world, can levy a complaint against me
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And the College can make life very difficult for me
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on the legal, financial, and professional front,
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as they have done continuously for the last six years.
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Even though they have the option of dismissing such complaints
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But it is also the case that Twitter suspended my account quite recently
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a ruling which I appealed so far unsuccessfully,
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as, despite the publicity around my suspension,
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I suspect that the formal reason for the suspension
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who has decided that they are the sex alternate
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by the standards of the radical gender-bending social constructionists
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who have made mobbing a veritable act of expertise.
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My family has also cautioned me against my Twitter use,
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who appear to believe that my tweets have some redemptive utility,
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to keep an eye on the currents in the general culture,
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who specialize in caustic, narcissistic denigration,
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about the tone I use from time to time on YouTube,
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and sterilizations make me both afraid and angry.
02:18:56.960
this in this individual yeah and i i don't want
02:18:59.680
to get into stats and numbers because it's it's a
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somebody who i know intimately maybe well as much
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as you could judge any as much as you are for me in
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my eyes so whatever my opinion estimation is worth
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well okay that'll switch things into a slightly
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different so argument i i'm willing to accept that
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because i already said that's an acceptance then
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again wait a sec there's a there's contingency okay
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if in finding your true identity you violate a cultural
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norm that's so profound that you destabilize the
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the entire country the entire culture then maybe you don't
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have the right to do that even if it actualizes yourself
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hmm but i don't know right is the manner of twitter
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right like how many people who are not activists
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are you engaged with regularly with their opinions
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in the public marketplace of ideas like not a lot right there's a bit they
02:20:08.380
american public yet right there's no rv milk there's no
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martin luther king like it's a it's a conversation
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that hasn't happened well i don't even necessarily think that that branch of the
02:20:19.300
the lgbtq plus community should be conceptualized in that manner that's the
02:20:24.280
thing that liberals do immediately this is another civil rights battle it's like
02:20:28.040
yeah oh no maybe but what maybe not what i'm saying is
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is well maybe but maybe not gets proven if somebody can come forth who
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acceptance in a manner that is moral and by moral it doesn't mean
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so john lewis another problem that's emerged out of this that's very very
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complicated it's like okay so now the trans community is brought into the realm
02:20:54.020
of normativity in some sense let's say and so now and so here's where the wheel
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that wheel hits the road so now you're a 10 year old and you're you're wondering
02:21:03.900
about your gender identity and your sexuality or maybe you're 11 and you're
02:21:08.180
confused because maybe you're a pretty feminine boy and maybe you're tilted
02:21:11.800
biologically towards being homosexual and now the conversation is well maybe you
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should be castrated and the answer to that question is
02:21:20.460
yeah maybe that'll happen yeah and then there's another question that comes up is
02:21:25.440
like so is it so clear that the gay community is better off under the aegis of the
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trans umbrella than they were under the aegis of the monos of the heterosexual
02:21:34.800
monogamists and the answer to that seems to me to be not only are they not
02:21:38.600
better off they're way way worse wait there's one more thing
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there's one more thing the the inclusion violates the ideal and the norm and you
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think well that's necessary because then it includes but one of the consequences
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might be that if you extend the ideal so that it's too inclusive you blow the ideal
02:21:58.100
so that it's even worse for those who are marginalized yeah and i really do think
02:22:02.440
that's happening i know that in this battle i do too i do too and i agree with
02:22:06.840
everything that you've said about the complexities and the thing that is the
02:22:10.700
hardest is the removal of counsel teachers physicians everybody psychologists who
02:22:17.920
are no longer no longer allowed to have these conversations and i'm going to say
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well how do i know they're not allowed to have these conversations and the answer is
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because i have 10 lawsuits against me that's right for having these conversations
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however badly i'm having them so so now we can surgically transform children
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that we are not allowed to talk to yes and i think that elliot page aided and abetted that
02:22:43.080
okay and pridefully so there's two conversations that we're having and it's important to break it
02:22:48.880
down so one of them is in me saying do you think anyone's trans there's not a clear answer you can
02:22:54.100
get for that i have a different opinion that i believe that there are people that that is their
02:22:57.980
fullest most embodied self that's my opinion you don't need to share it well i would just say i don't
02:23:04.040
know because i'd have to talk to them great so then so talk to them and i mean people have all
02:23:09.060
sorts of weird identities you know so god only knows but so part of it for me and then there's
02:23:14.260
the whole issue of how it's moving through the culture which i do not want to defend because i
02:23:18.120
don't agree with it so i don't want to get pulled into a defense from me saying this of you saying well
02:23:22.980
that's what you liberals do all the time you bring it in and you normalize it and you pull it and
02:23:27.500
then you decimate what the norm is i'm saying well there's some advantages to to bringing in the
02:23:32.860
margins into the center to the degree that you can manage but what i'm saying is is it has that
02:23:37.100
is a conversation that has gone too fast given twitter and the pace of conversation like if
02:23:42.460
you're blowing up dave chappelle right right and dave chappelle is like especially for that comedy
02:23:47.980
performance did you listen to it you think he's anti-trans are you utterly clueless i would never
02:23:52.800
hesitate to have dave chappelle at my house with my transgender godson at the table and think it would
02:23:58.600
be anything he's like the most soulful jester of the court and you can't you can't cut down the
02:24:04.480
court jester because they're the source of wisdom and saying things that aren't allowed to be said
02:24:08.460
yeah and you don't get to cut the line in front of everybody else to do it either but part of that is
02:24:12.620
also like with your issue well who's democratically electing that leadership to criticize him well no one
02:24:18.180
it's like who knows what anybody thinks about anything so that's part of why i'm saying i don't want to
02:24:22.940
and have an argument with you about the entire movement of trans through the culture and all
02:24:29.000
the ways that that's being mismanaged because we're in agreement on a lot of that but i'm saying if there
02:24:33.340
is an absolute version of it then again landing here from outer space and you get to pick your team
02:24:39.500
of experts that this is something you want to discuss as a world the most famous psychologist in
02:24:44.500
the world yeah well i think part of the moral of the story is and this and this might be the
02:24:50.920
fundamental issue is twitter is not the place to have a discussion about serious and when you said
02:24:55.120
i mean i think maybe because we we did want to wrap up yeah we should wrap up let me get one thing in
02:25:00.040
and then i want to wrap up okay and so how you did it was imprecise because it was like everyone was
02:25:05.900
confused about it if you want a real solution in some ways i think any real solution has to involve
02:25:10.700
both instead of just like crushing and subverting yeah so who would be a really interesting conversation
02:25:16.300
like this one for you to have is if you and elliot page reset in another i have someone in the uk
02:25:22.540
okay and you're willing to say you know what it's like if i take you at your word of what it feels
02:25:28.160
like to be trapped in the wrong body here's kind of what's happening are what are your concerns
02:25:33.520
well that's what i did with reuben on the issue of gay parent that's right it's a missed opportunity
02:25:38.280
to do the thing that you are in many regards best suited to do which is say okay well where's
02:25:45.400
your line and where's my line and here's a bunch of concern and you have concern too if a bunch of
02:25:50.260
kids if there's a wave of rapid onset gender dysphoria and a whole bunch of kids are having
02:25:54.880
hormonal conversions that are irreversible before they're ready you don't want them stuck in the
02:25:59.620
wrong body what's the balance where do you think the balance is yep pulling out from the details of the
02:26:06.080
different tweets and the different messages that have come out i think that one of the things that
02:26:10.800
greg is expressing and i think that there are actually you would be surprised to know that
02:26:15.160
he's not just expressing it from the left like there's also i know conservative right-wing people
02:26:20.060
that have expressed some just a concern about role and that is something that you have to decide also
02:26:27.140
what your role is because the way in which many of us perceive you is a role which is able to raise
02:26:33.340
up above the fray of politics without being afraid of getting into politics but is able to raise up
02:26:40.460
above the fray of politics and is able to kind of cross over and disarm each side to a certain extent
02:26:47.260
because the manner in which you have people don't realize this but the manner to which you have
02:26:52.300
de-radicalized people that were moving in a frightening way towards the right and the manner in which
02:26:58.360
you have pulled people who thought that that people who are going also in the left and they didn't know
02:27:03.380
where they were you were able to kind of tell them look this is not what you think right you you can
02:27:07.400
you can think certain ways and it doesn't it doesn't you've been able to to really act as that strange
02:27:12.560
pivot and so so i think that in a way if there's a lot of weight on you it's very heavy but i think that
02:27:19.980
maybe that is what you're seeing it's not as heavy as doing it wrong yeah but maybe that's what you're
02:27:24.360
seeing is you're just seeing this call of people saying look if you fall into into the pundit we're
02:27:30.960
going to lose that which we love the most about jordan um and so yeah just say be attentive is the
02:27:38.320
only thing i think the call and you know what the left doesn't realize and the means let's say the
02:27:44.340
neg the the part of society that doesn't understand or judges jordan in ways that are unfair rather than
02:27:51.920
fair so negative judgment is the amount of work he's done pulling people out and criticizing the
02:28:01.480
alt-right like that's been a huge role right and if you're on this side of the fence everyone's like
02:28:06.200
he's creating the alt-right he's participating in positive masculinity and enforced monogamy that
02:28:10.840
doesn't have the meaning that anybody thinks that it has but there's whole podcasts where you're
02:28:16.220
speaking to the alt-right in a manner that is that is unbelievably critical and offering a different
02:28:23.680
path out and you had one person who wrote you a letter last time we were there that i don't think
02:28:29.500
you've talked about publicly high school a high school who literally was going to be a high school
02:28:33.700
shooter who said i was going to go shoot up my high school and i listened to you and i didn't shoot
02:28:38.900
up my high school and i thought and got help and was inappropriate hands at that point and i thought
02:28:45.680
that's a that's like a that's a piece of script like that the importance of that thing that happened
02:28:54.760
it's like so literally there now are a number of families in a whole community whose kids weren't
02:29:00.320
murdered as a result of that and so if there's certain things people are worried about you always
02:29:05.680
say if you if you right if you're afraid of weak men i'm sorry if you're afraid of strong men you
02:29:10.700
should be terrified of what weak men can accomplish and so that's the part of it and so that's why
02:29:15.740
these these small seemingly small um corruptions in the facade where it's like you're not being
02:29:25.720
gentlemanly you're not being this it feels nitpicky in the face of so much of what you're doing
02:29:29.880
but it's no no the details matter the details matter that's why elliot page and the swimsuit model
02:29:35.320
matter that's right that's they're not just details that's right and you getting that right
02:29:41.300
is important because the more that people on the right who have said hang on a minute i was going
02:29:46.700
alt-right i don't want to go all right i don't want to go far right and part of that's jordan
02:29:50.800
peterson and people on the left who said i don't want to go far left i'm i'm liberal i'm still going
02:29:56.500
to stay liberal but there's a whole bunch about him that pulled me out and move me towards transcendent
02:30:01.260
values responsibility right um responsibility more than and humility that was and humility right
02:30:08.040
and love well good and community well that's what we're trying to do with this conversation
02:30:13.140
that's right it's responsible humility on both our parts on all of our parts is to engage in the
02:30:18.900
discussion of good faith and see if we can figure out how to do this better moving forward jonathan's
02:30:23.100
been insufferable but i think we did a good job on that front all right thank you sir thanks thanks
02:30:28.780
great and it's definitely a tribute i think in the end it is a tribute to you that you're even
02:30:34.840
willing to do this i agree we appreciate it yeah well i'm more terrified of the alternative than of
02:30:39.440
the conversation and that's definitely the case so all right thank you all who are watching and
02:30:45.780
listening and uh appreciate the time and attention and to the daily wire crew um that's also much
02:30:52.240
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