The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast - August 26, 2022


282. Mean Tweets： an apologia ｜ Pageau & Hurwitz

Topics
Twitter addiction and manipulation gender and race cancel culture
Hosted by
Jordan B. Peterson Mikhaila Peterson
Mentioned
Greg Hurwitz Tammy Jordan Peterson Jonathan Paggio Dave Rubin Joe Biden Elliot Page Jakari Jackson Stephen Blackwood Reagan Ayaan Hirsi Ali Jonathan Pajot Dave Chappelle Andrew Kolvet Ellen Page Henry IV Kafka Jung Jen Psaki Hieronymus Bosch and 25 more
281. Trudeau, Travel, and “The Science” 283. Conservative Leadership Canada ｜ Dr. Leslyn Lewis

Episode Stats


Length

2 hours and 32 minutes

Words per minute

185.64

Word count

28,248

Sentence count

1,199

Harmful content

Misogyny

60

sentences flagged

Toxicity

176

sentences flagged

Hate speech

63

sentences flagged


Summary

Summaries generated with gmurro/bart-large-finetuned-filtered-spotify-podcast-summ .

Dr. Jordan Peterson has created a new series that could be a lifeline for those battling depression and anxiety. With decades of experience helping patients, Dr. Peterson offers a unique understanding of why you might be feeling this way, and offers a roadmap towards healing. In his new series, he provides a roadmap toward healing, showing that while the journey isn t easy, it s absolutely possible to find your way forward. If you re suffering, please know you are not alone. There s hope, and there s a path to feeling better. Go to Dailywire Plus now and start watching Dr. Jordan B. Peterson on Depression and Anxiety. Let s take a first step towards the brighter future you deserve. Dr. B.P. is a Canadian clinical psychologist, author, and public speaker. He is the author of The Subtle Art of Not Giving a Fucking F#ck: A Guide to Transracialism and Transphobia. His work has been featured in the New York Times, CNN, NPR, and the BBC. He is a regular contributor to The Huffington Post, and is a frequent contributor to Salon, and a frequent guest on the BBC Radio 4. His work can be found online here. Thank you for listening and supporting this podcast. If you like what you hear, please consider becoming a patron patron of Daily Wire Plus. Don t forget to SUBSCRIBE and leave us a rating and review our podcast on Apple Podcasts! Subscribe to our new podcast, wherever you get your favourite podcast releases are available. You can also become a patron. It helps us spread the word out there about what we're listening to us on social media and other resources like it helps us reach more people like you can help us reach even more people in the world more effectively and reach them more of their potential, more of those who need us on the most influential influencers and support us in the most effective ways possible. Thanks for listening to our podcast, and more of us everywhere we can reach out to others like you, everywhere they can reach more of our potential, and we can be reachable through the world through the internet, everywhere we get a better listening and a better place like that helps us more of your voice matters more of a place like this, more like that we can connect more of people like us, a better of a chance to reach them in the best of a listening experience thank you, thank you more of and more.

Transcript

Transcript generated with Whisper (turbo).
Misogyny classifications generated with MilaNLProc/bert-base-uncased-ear-misogyny .
Toxicity classifications generated with s-nlp/roberta_toxicity_classifier .
Hate speech classifications generated with facebook/roberta-hate-speech-dynabench-r4-target .
Topics generated with Qwen2.5-3B-Instruct.
Hosts, guests, and mentioned names generated with spaCy (en_core_web_sm), reconciled against Wikidata.
00:00:00.940 Hey everyone, real quick before you skip, I want to talk to you about something serious and important.
00:00:06.480 Dr. Jordan Peterson has created a new series that could be a lifeline for those battling depression and anxiety.
00:00:12.740 We know how isolating and overwhelming these conditions can be, and we wanted to take a moment to reach out to those listening who may be struggling.
00:00:20.100 With decades of experience helping patients, Dr. Peterson offers a unique understanding of why you might be feeling this way in his new series.
00:00:27.420 He provides a roadmap towards healing, showing that while the journey isn't easy, it's absolutely possible to find your way forward.
00:00:35.360 If you're suffering, please know you are not alone. There's hope, and there's a path to feeling better.
00:00:41.780 Go to Daily Wire Plus now and start watching Dr. Jordan B. Peterson on depression and anxiety.
00:00:47.460 Let this be the first step towards the brighter future you deserve.
00:00:57.420 Hello, everyone.
00:01:09.520 I needed to write and read a very careful intro to this podcast episode, as it deals with particularly tricky and contentious matters.
00:01:19.280 So please forgive the deviation from spontaneity that such writing and reading necessarily requires.
00:01:27.000 The discussion that follows this intro is as free-flowing as might be hoped for, if that is some consolation.
00:01:35.440 In 2016, I released three videos on YouTube, commentaries on a law being passed at the federal level in Canada, Bill C-16,
00:01:47.580 purporting to grant protected status to people with uncertain so-called gender identities,
00:01:53.840 but in my opinion, constituting an unwarranted intrusion into the socially necessary and fundamentally important domain of free speech.
00:02:02.120 Those videos went viral for reasons that are still not exactly clear.
00:02:08.680 I believed at the time that the introduction of confusion regarding the conceptualization and terminology of masculine and feminine identity
00:02:17.520 would produce far more trouble than it would cure.
00:02:21.660 More specifically, that it would produce a psychogenic epidemic among vulnerable young women around the age of puberty,
00:02:28.760 experiencing the onset of increased negative emotion characteristic of that age and sex.
00:02:35.280 This is exactly and precisely what has happened, and it's not good, and it has to stop.
00:02:41.840 In any case, my objection in these videos and some subsequent interviews,
00:02:46.900 most famously, I suppose, with Kathy Newman of Channel 4 News,
00:02:50.580 with Joe Rogan multiple times, with Helen Lewis of GQ,
00:02:56.140 as well as two books I wrote in recent years in a lecture series on Genesis,
00:03:00.900 brought me to what has been increasingly broad public attention.
00:03:04.740 That has been a great adventure,
00:03:07.100 with the attendant cost of severe and often exceptionally caustic criticism.
00:03:12.280 I have now talked with at least a hundred people who have also been made into public targets.
00:03:20.320 Without exception, it has struck them to the core,
00:03:23.500 put their careers at risk,
00:03:25.160 alienated them too often from family and friends,
00:03:28.640 and driven not a few into psychiatric care or wards.
00:03:33.680 Everyone mobbed reacts as if they have contracted a potentially fatal illness,
00:03:38.800 and the social media environment we now inhabit enables those who are prone to form mobs
00:03:45.460 to do so with ease and impunity.
00:03:49.080 This also has to stop.
00:03:52.120 But who is at fault?
00:03:54.880 Who should stop?
00:03:57.260 This is a hard question.
00:03:59.520 I've been criticized for my own online behavior.
00:04:03.540 Many people have told me that I've been too harsh,
00:04:06.260 particularly in tone, particularly when reading articles about political or cultural issues
00:04:11.860 that have also been typically published in newspaper form.
00:04:15.460 And I have found myself in substantive trouble as a consequence of Twitter.
00:04:20.980 At the moment, the College of Psychologists of Ontario,
00:04:25.480 which is the governing body of such professionals,
00:04:29.080 has seen fit to launch an investigation into 10 or so complaints.
00:04:33.340 That's 10 separate investigations, by the way.
00:04:35.780 That have been levied against me because of what I have said
00:04:39.200 on that oft-pathological snake pit of a platform.
00:04:43.720 Now, it is true that such governing bodies have become appallingly corrupt in recent years
00:04:50.140 on the medical, legal, and psychological fronts.
00:04:54.020 Anyone, anywhere in the world, can levy a complaint against me
00:04:57.980 as a psychologist for any reason whatsoever.
00:05:01.600 And I have no right to face my accuser.
00:05:04.140 And the College can make life very difficult for me
00:05:07.760 on the legal, financial, and professional front,
00:05:10.660 as they have done continuously for the last six years.
00:05:14.240 Even though they have the option of dismissing such complaints
00:05:17.720 as frivolous and vexatious,
00:05:19.740 which they most certainly are.
00:05:21.400 But it is also the case that Twitter suspended my account quite recently
00:05:26.780 for violating their community standards,
00:05:30.400 whatever they are,
00:05:32.000 a ruling which I appealed so far unsuccessfully,
00:05:35.640 as, despite the publicity around my suspension,
00:05:38.860 Twitter has yet to respond to my objection.
00:05:42.020 This does not surprise me.
00:05:44.020 I suspect that the formal reason for the suspension
00:05:47.760 is that I deadnamed Elliot Page,
00:05:51.560 which is the act of referring to a person
00:05:53.700 who has decided that they are the sex alternate
00:05:56.600 to their fundamental biological identity
00:05:58.900 by the name given to them at birth
00:06:01.460 and used until their so-called transition.
00:06:04.880 This has become a cardinal sin
00:06:06.520 by the standards of the radical gender-bending social constructionists
00:06:10.620 who have made mobbing a veritable act of expertise.
00:06:15.620 My family has also cautioned me against my Twitter use,
00:06:19.440 believing, with some real justification,
00:06:22.080 that it causes more trouble than good.
00:06:25.080 The evidence contrary to that, I suppose,
00:06:27.420 is that I have nearly three million followers
00:06:30.060 who appear to believe that my tweets have some redemptive utility,
00:06:33.920 and the fact that I can use Twitter
00:06:35.460 to keep an eye on the currents in the general culture,
00:06:38.240 learn how the platform works
00:06:39.760 and affects society in a broad sense,
00:06:41.980 and follow the activities
00:06:43.680 of the hundreds of so-called influencers
00:06:45.800 whom I have met and talked with
00:06:47.880 in the last six or seven years.
00:06:50.040 It's a conundrum,
00:06:51.360 as I also find the platform stressful,
00:06:54.240 as the comments,
00:06:55.840 often from the anonymous trolls 0.79
00:06:58.280 who specialize in caustic, narcissistic denigration, 0.96
00:07:02.580 are almost demonic in their destructive mien.
00:07:06.040 Similar cautions have been directed to me,
00:07:08.260 although much less frequently,
00:07:10.480 about the tone I use from time to time on YouTube,
00:07:13.520 often when dealing with an issue
00:07:15.080 that is also publicly controversial.
00:07:17.820 Some of the contentious issues
00:07:19.540 that we're obsessed with in the modern world,
00:07:21.860 such as pronoun use,
00:07:23.240 and the associated blockades of puberty,
00:07:25.640 and surgical mutilations or transformations,
00:07:28.800 depending on your perspective,
00:07:30.600 and sterilizations make me both afraid and angry.
00:07:35.280 Those emotions serve as motivations
00:07:37.020 for writing and public commentary,
00:07:38.980 but their excessive expression
00:07:40.900 produces the risk of exacerbating
00:07:43.360 the political polarization
00:07:44.500 and toxic social media exchanges
00:07:46.780 that appear to be polluting our culture
00:07:48.920 to a dangerous degree.
00:07:50.480 And it's not just people
00:07:53.580 who object to my ideas
00:07:55.160 or even my mere existence
00:07:57.120 who are criticizing.
00:07:59.000 It's people who broadly support my endeavors,
00:08:01.500 but have some troubles
00:08:03.200 with the specifics.
00:08:05.220 Here's some examples
00:08:06.260 from two high-level corporate C-suite dwellers
00:08:09.240 who fall into that category,
00:08:11.640 both of whom watched my recent
00:08:13.960 so-called message to CEOs.
00:08:16.340 First,
00:08:19.040 Dear Jordan,
00:08:21.200 Although I agree with most
00:08:22.800 of the underlying substance
00:08:23.940 of your argument,
00:08:25.140 I'm not sure your approach
00:08:26.560 is as persuasive as it could be.
00:08:29.340 It feels more like a mock fusillade
00:08:31.480 at CEOs addressed to your fan base
00:08:34.120 rather than a message addressed to CEOs
00:08:36.540 which might persuade them
00:08:37.860 to change their ways.
00:08:39.680 In that sense,
00:08:40.940 I am not sure it will move
00:08:42.340 the dial of the debate.
00:08:44.620 As you say,
00:08:45.680 Most CEOs do not have the time
00:08:47.960 for political or philosophical debate,
00:08:50.320 nor understand the deep currents
00:08:51.960 that are driving DEI and ESG.
00:08:55.620 They are hapless victims
00:08:57.220 of long-dead philosophers and economists.
00:08:59.860 But, and it is a big but,
00:09:01.980 they are mostly competent people
00:09:03.760 immersed in the detail
00:09:05.120 of implementing or not ESG or DEI.
00:09:09.620 So the way to get to them
00:09:11.400 is through the details of the flaws
00:09:13.700 in the various ESG taxonomies
00:09:16.460 or the credibility of the grifters
00:09:18.480 peddling this stuff.
00:09:22.140 Second commentary.
00:09:25.040 Dear Jordan,
00:09:26.140 When we first met,
00:09:27.860 I was disoriented
00:09:28.940 by your extension of trust.
00:09:31.120 I knew immediately
00:09:32.000 that I was speaking
00:09:32.820 to a real person.
00:09:34.440 You provide the same experience
00:09:37.880 for your audience.
00:09:39.660 It is a superpower.
00:09:41.700 That superpower could be described
00:09:43.300 as a unique combination
00:09:44.640 of insight and vulnerability.
00:09:47.780 Millions of people trust you
00:09:49.100 because they see raw,
00:09:50.540 unscripted emotion
00:09:51.580 from a real person seeking truth
00:09:53.760 and without the veil of a persona.
00:09:56.660 Ironically,
00:09:57.380 one of your greatest strengths
00:09:58.600 is this earnest generosity
00:10:00.200 with, quote,
00:10:01.100 weakness.
00:10:02.300 I fear the CEO video
00:10:04.600 loses the humble vulnerability
00:10:06.240 from the superpower equation.
00:10:09.180 I found myself hoping
00:10:10.340 the non-judgmental Jordan Peterson
00:10:12.120 would appear.
00:10:13.500 Instead,
00:10:14.280 I got caught
00:10:14.980 in a net of angry,
00:10:16.260 sarcastic judgments.
00:10:18.200 Even with the patience
00:10:19.160 that comes with my respect for you,
00:10:20.920 I could not abstract
00:10:22.140 constructive value
00:10:23.620 from the bitter tone.
00:10:25.120 I found it hard.
00:10:27.120 If I found it hard,
00:10:28.360 I cannot imagine
00:10:29.620 other CEOs
00:10:30.400 would respond positively.
00:10:32.840 I recognize
00:10:33.360 the ridiculous irony 0.99
00:10:34.500 of judging you 0.98
00:10:35.360 for being too judgmental,
00:10:37.200 but that,
00:10:38.000 in essence,
00:10:38.480 is the problem.
00:10:40.080 The reflexive,
00:10:41.220 defensive response
00:10:42.320 to judgment
00:10:42.940 is to judge.
00:10:45.080 For example,
00:10:45.980 the message
00:10:46.500 fails to contemplate
00:10:47.700 that CEOs
00:10:48.300 may tolerate some noise
00:10:49.740 because we know
00:10:50.780 we can act decisively.
00:10:52.500 It also commits
00:10:53.480 the leftist sin
00:10:54.720 of ascribing guilt
00:10:55.960 to an entire group.
00:10:57.100 Your best lectures
00:10:59.220 are genuine dialogues.
00:11:00.920 You're both teacher
00:11:01.620 and student,
00:11:02.500 clinician and patient,
00:11:03.820 father and son.
00:11:05.360 You are a fellow sinner
00:11:07.020 helping us analyze sin.
00:11:09.760 Consequently,
00:11:10.480 the audience is open
00:11:11.360 to the call
00:11:11.820 to responsibility
00:11:12.700 because they trust deeply
00:11:14.760 that you have
00:11:15.840 similarly admonished
00:11:17.300 yourself.
00:11:19.180 My belief
00:11:19.820 is that people trust you
00:11:21.060 because your judgment
00:11:22.440 is not judgmental.
00:11:24.880 Most of the time
00:11:25.640 you attack the sin,
00:11:27.100 not the sinner.
00:11:28.800 I could be completely off
00:11:30.120 if I have misunderstood
00:11:31.120 or misread this.
00:11:33.240 I apologize.
00:11:35.740 Now,
00:11:36.560 these are very
00:11:37.580 thoughtful criticisms,
00:11:39.340 both written by men
00:11:40.640 who are doing
00:11:41.600 their level best
00:11:42.400 to help me
00:11:43.220 and everyone
00:11:44.360 I am communicating with
00:11:45.540 separate the wheat
00:11:46.700 from the chaff.
00:11:47.980 I have been involved
00:11:49.000 in many discussions
00:11:49.880 recently about the tone
00:11:51.220 of the YouTube articles
00:11:52.580 similar to those
00:11:54.040 that generated
00:11:55.260 these comments.
00:11:56.600 Some people,
00:11:58.080 equally credible,
00:11:59.500 believe that the tone
00:12:00.480 of hypothetically
00:12:01.400 righteous outrage 0.87
00:12:02.500 that I adopted,
00:12:04.140 at least partly
00:12:05.000 to harness the anger
00:12:06.080 necessary to broach
00:12:07.280 the topics publicly
00:12:08.360 in the first place,
00:12:09.700 had a clearly
00:12:10.680 valuable place.
00:12:13.120 Others believed,
00:12:14.320 as did the CEOs
00:12:15.440 I cited,
00:12:16.320 that I would be
00:12:17.080 more effective
00:12:17.880 if I alienated
00:12:20.140 fewer people
00:12:20.980 while offering
00:12:22.400 my views.
00:12:24.520 Recently,
00:12:25.440 when reading
00:12:26.140 an article
00:12:26.780 I wrote
00:12:27.260 for the UK newspaper
00:12:28.600 The Telegraph,
00:12:29.980 I tried something
00:12:31.020 different,
00:12:32.100 responding to the
00:12:32.980 feedback I had received.
00:12:34.940 I wrote
00:12:35.540 an equally
00:12:36.300 critical piece,
00:12:38.180 Back Off,
00:12:39.200 O Masters
00:12:39.720 of the Universe,
00:12:41.640 directed at the
00:12:42.380 consulting company
00:12:43.200 Deloitte,
00:12:44.280 which in May
00:12:44.960 of 2022
00:12:45.780 released a globalist
00:12:47.420 utopian missive
00:12:48.760 as part of
00:12:50.100 a necessary effort
00:12:51.300 to curb
00:12:52.200 economic growth
00:12:53.280 to save the planet.
00:12:55.460 I was not very
00:12:56.300 impressed by the
00:12:57.100 Deloitte arguments
00:12:58.040 or any similar
00:12:59.320 arguments,
00:13:00.480 predicated on the
00:13:01.200 idea that some
00:13:01.840 very real and
00:13:02.700 immediate suffering
00:13:03.620 must be necessarily
00:13:05.040 imposed from the
00:13:06.440 top down
00:13:07.300 on those who
00:13:08.840 are struggling,
00:13:09.820 say, in the
00:13:10.320 developing world,
00:13:11.700 because there is
00:13:12.340 no other way
00:13:12.980 of rectifying
00:13:13.700 the biosphere.
00:13:15.780 In any case,
00:13:17.040 independent of the
00:13:17.760 merits of that
00:13:18.340 argument,
00:13:19.320 I attempted
00:13:19.980 to manifest
00:13:21.080 a much calmer
00:13:22.100 tone,
00:13:23.360 less afraid,
00:13:24.500 less angry.
00:13:25.940 That experiment,
00:13:27.220 which was a
00:13:27.780 genuine attempt
00:13:28.540 to change,
00:13:30.140 appeared to be
00:13:31.140 very successful.
00:13:32.640 I don't believe
00:13:33.620 that doing so
00:13:34.400 softened the
00:13:35.400 points I was
00:13:36.040 making in any
00:13:37.100 real sense,
00:13:38.080 and I produced
00:13:38.740 much less
00:13:39.360 kickback from
00:13:40.680 my consultant
00:13:41.380 compatriots
00:13:42.260 and from the
00:13:43.520 intended audience
00:13:44.360 who took what
00:13:45.160 I said with
00:13:46.240 more seriousness
00:13:47.080 rather than
00:13:47.820 less.
00:13:48.600 Here are some
00:13:49.180 representative
00:13:49.720 comments taken
00:13:51.300 from a YouTube
00:13:52.260 comment section
00:13:53.340 notable in this
00:13:54.260 case for its
00:13:54.860 positive nature.
00:13:56.780 First,
00:13:58.160 Mr.
00:13:58.500 Peterson,
00:13:59.200 I still love
00:14:00.240 the videos you've
00:14:00.960 done before and
00:14:01.940 re-watched them
00:14:02.640 on occasion,
00:14:03.520 but this one has
00:14:04.200 exactly the tone
00:14:05.160 that is appropriate
00:14:06.180 to its content.
00:14:07.720 Second,
00:14:08.740 I really appreciate
00:14:09.920 the change in
00:14:10.720 tone.
00:14:11.000 these subjects
00:14:12.260 can be hard to
00:14:13.240 truly hear,
00:14:14.240 speaking for
00:14:14.800 myself,
00:14:15.720 while I do
00:14:16.260 find it important
00:14:17.160 that it is
00:14:18.100 heard,
00:14:19.000 and this more
00:14:19.720 neutral slash
00:14:20.740 calm,
00:14:21.560 I'd say factual
00:14:22.540 approach makes it
00:14:23.580 more digestible for
00:14:24.580 me.
00:14:25.140 This in turn makes
00:14:26.060 it easier for me
00:14:26.800 to share this
00:14:27.640 information in a
00:14:28.920 more calm,
00:14:29.940 factual manner.
00:14:32.060 Third,
00:14:33.440 nothing in the
00:14:34.280 message was lost
00:14:35.120 by stating the
00:14:35.820 facts in a
00:14:36.400 calm tone.
00:14:37.720 Thank you,
00:14:38.880 Dr.
00:14:39.120 Peterson,
00:14:39.580 for your
00:14:39.880 effort,
00:14:40.620 for practicing
00:14:41.180 what you
00:14:41.620 preach,
00:14:42.440 for being a
00:14:43.140 good example.
00:14:45.020 Live and
00:14:45.680 learn,
00:14:46.480 we hope.
00:14:47.820 On the
00:14:48.380 Twitter front,
00:14:48.980 things are more
00:14:49.480 complex.
00:14:50.660 I should point
00:14:51.840 out as a bit
00:14:52.420 of background
00:14:52.920 that since I
00:14:53.660 emerged,
00:14:54.320 so to speak,
00:14:54.940 in the public
00:14:55.400 realm,
00:14:56.160 that I have
00:14:56.500 had many good
00:14:57.220 critics helping
00:14:57.920 me maintain
00:14:58.580 my equilibrium
00:14:59.360 and working
00:15:00.380 with me to
00:15:00.920 improve my
00:15:01.520 capacity to
00:15:02.540 communicate.
00:15:03.860 These include
00:15:05.000 family members,
00:15:06.400 my wife Tammy
00:15:07.140 and two adult
00:15:08.000 children,
00:15:08.600 Michaela and
00:15:09.100 Julian,
00:15:09.760 who are not
00:15:10.220 afraid to tell
00:15:10.800 me what they
00:15:11.240 think and who
00:15:12.060 provide wise
00:15:12.860 counsel,
00:15:13.820 as well as a
00:15:14.640 stellar group of
00:15:15.380 friends and
00:15:15.840 colleagues who
00:15:16.380 are very
00:15:16.840 competent people
00:15:17.820 and who do
00:15:18.600 their best to
00:15:19.260 tell me when
00:15:20.020 they think I'm
00:15:20.540 deviating,
00:15:21.240 as I often
00:15:21.840 do,
00:15:22.540 from the
00:15:22.860 straight and
00:15:23.320 narrow.
00:15:24.480 These are all
00:15:25.240 people who have
00:15:25.820 some serious
00:15:26.440 concerns about
00:15:27.440 the state of
00:15:27.980 modern society
00:15:28.900 and hope I'm
00:15:30.160 doing some
00:15:30.760 good and who
00:15:31.960 would like,
00:15:32.500 insofar as
00:15:33.100 they are able,
00:15:34.300 to help me
00:15:34.860 do better.
00:15:35.380 That group
00:15:37.500 includes the
00:15:39.180 two people I
00:15:39.840 am talking
00:15:40.280 with on the
00:15:40.880 video to
00:15:41.760 which this
00:15:42.260 missive serves 0.82
00:15:43.160 as introduction,
00:15:45.180 Jonathan
00:15:45.600 Paggio,
00:15:46.540 fine artist,
00:15:47.640 deep religious
00:15:48.500 thinker,
00:15:49.340 public
00:15:49.580 intellectual and
00:15:50.400 friend,
00:15:51.540 and Greg
00:15:52.180 Hurwitz,
00:15:53.300 author of
00:15:54.000 popular commercial
00:15:54.940 fiction,
00:15:56.120 most notably the
00:15:57.020 Orphan X series,
00:15:58.400 comic book writer,
00:15:59.600 political consultant,
00:16:00.560 former student
00:16:01.900 of mine some
00:16:02.580 30 years ago
00:16:03.460 at Harvard,
00:16:04.440 and friend
00:16:05.180 ever since.
00:16:07.320 I've been
00:16:07.760 speaking to
00:16:08.260 Hurwitz about
00:16:08.800 everything under
00:16:09.420 the sun during
00:16:10.100 the entire time
00:16:10.960 we have known
00:16:11.440 each other,
00:16:12.160 but in more
00:16:12.800 recent years,
00:16:13.900 that has become
00:16:14.600 more political.
00:16:16.280 I've been
00:16:16.660 working with
00:16:17.200 Greg,
00:16:17.980 with a group
00:16:18.480 of strategists
00:16:19.240 and public
00:16:19.720 communicators for
00:16:20.560 the Democratic
00:16:21.160 Party in the
00:16:21.820 U.S. for
00:16:22.360 more than six
00:16:23.040 years,
00:16:23.800 trying to pull
00:16:24.500 the party to
00:16:25.140 the middle,
00:16:25.900 away from
00:16:26.620 the leftist
00:16:27.220 radicals,
00:16:28.140 with some
00:16:28.880 success.
00:16:29.780 He has been
00:16:30.720 a very able
00:16:31.420 advocate for
00:16:32.860 the more
00:16:33.180 liberal side
00:16:33.860 of the
00:16:34.060 political
00:16:34.360 spectrum,
00:16:35.040 and has
00:16:35.280 helped me
00:16:35.800 immensely in
00:16:37.020 my attempts
00:16:37.560 to maintain
00:16:38.140 communication
00:16:38.900 with people
00:16:39.720 who occupy
00:16:40.440 that side,
00:16:41.740 whose worth
00:16:42.380 and concerns
00:16:43.280 I understand.
00:16:45.340 After all,
00:16:46.460 don't the
00:16:47.040 dispossessed
00:16:47.840 require a
00:16:48.920 voice?
00:16:50.800 He voiced
00:16:51.600 a series of
00:16:52.440 objections to
00:16:53.280 some of my
00:16:53.840 recent tweets,
00:16:54.980 including the
00:16:55.860 particular
00:16:56.260 utterance that
00:16:57.200 resulted in my
00:16:58.080 suspension,
00:16:58.620 and we
00:16:59.640 spent some
00:17:00.220 active and
00:17:00.980 contentious
00:17:01.620 time privately
00:17:02.640 going back and
00:17:03.400 forth about the
00:17:04.100 propriety and
00:17:04.820 utility of my
00:17:05.580 actions.
00:17:06.800 I then asked
00:17:07.620 him if he
00:17:08.240 would be
00:17:08.540 willing to
00:17:09.040 do so
00:17:09.600 publicly,
00:17:10.900 to serve in
00:17:12.580 part as
00:17:13.560 devil's advocate
00:17:14.440 and in part as
00:17:15.800 a genuine voice
00:17:16.760 of the centrist
00:17:17.480 left,
00:17:18.420 in relation to
00:17:19.240 my attempts to
00:17:19.900 communicate by
00:17:20.620 social media.
00:17:22.320 He had some
00:17:22.840 concerns about
00:17:23.520 doing so,
00:17:25.060 criticizing me,
00:17:26.620 something that is
00:17:27.400 certainly necessary,
00:17:28.780 brings with it a
00:17:29.560 plethora of
00:17:30.260 risks,
00:17:31.140 including eliciting
00:17:32.580 precisely that
00:17:33.740 mobbing behavior
00:17:34.620 discussed previously
00:17:35.720 that is so
00:17:36.820 unpleasant and
00:17:37.760 damaging.
00:17:39.500 Criticizing me
00:17:40.300 publicly also
00:17:41.340 risks exposing
00:17:42.620 the critic to
00:17:43.620 exactly the same
00:17:44.500 kind of criticism.
00:17:46.120 Can Mr.
00:17:46.700 Hurwitz do a
00:17:47.340 better job while
00:17:48.740 pointing out the
00:17:49.480 inadequacies of my
00:17:50.620 communicative strategy
00:17:51.820 that I'm doing
00:17:52.980 when engaged in
00:17:54.060 such communication?
00:17:55.020 Perhaps not,
00:17:57.320 in which case he
00:17:58.280 ends up in the
00:17:59.060 same boat.
00:18:00.080 But I asked him
00:18:01.340 to do it and
00:18:02.380 he agreed.
00:18:04.040 There is no way
00:18:05.040 to improve without
00:18:05.860 thinking about
00:18:06.600 improving and
00:18:07.580 that requires
00:18:08.220 forthright discussion
00:18:09.420 about potential
00:18:10.540 flaws of
00:18:11.120 approach,
00:18:11.940 tone,
00:18:12.320 and content.
00:18:13.560 And I found
00:18:14.500 the back and
00:18:15.120 forth that you
00:18:16.060 will be privy to
00:18:16.920 after this
00:18:17.560 introduction
00:18:18.140 extremely useful.
00:18:20.340 I asked
00:18:21.440 Mr.
00:18:22.180 Jonathan
00:18:22.740 Paggio to
00:18:23.500 participate
00:18:24.080 because he
00:18:25.180 was in
00:18:25.500 Miami with
00:18:26.120 Greg and
00:18:26.560 I recently
00:18:27.540 was listening
00:18:28.380 to our
00:18:28.760 private
00:18:29.120 conversation
00:18:29.800 about such
00:18:30.420 issues around
00:18:31.040 the dinner
00:18:31.380 table and
00:18:32.200 had many
00:18:32.620 wise things
00:18:33.240 to say.
00:18:34.440 He acts
00:18:35.080 in what
00:18:35.780 follows more
00:18:36.480 as a
00:18:36.820 mediator and
00:18:37.760 as someone
00:18:38.140 who is
00:18:38.480 assessing the
00:18:39.180 gist and
00:18:39.980 clarifying.
00:18:41.080 And I would
00:18:41.400 like to thank
00:18:42.080 him as well
00:18:43.280 as Greg for
00:18:44.400 that.
00:18:46.520 What tweets
00:18:47.220 are we
00:18:47.680 interrogating?
00:18:49.420 There are
00:18:49.820 three essentially
00:18:50.820 or three
00:18:51.800 sets.
00:18:52.360 the first
00:18:53.500 involves the
00:18:54.020 process by
00:18:54.660 which the
00:18:55.040 nomination of
00:18:55.840 Supreme Court
00:18:56.620 Justice
00:18:57.200 Katanji
00:18:58.200 Brown 0.70
00:18:58.640 Jackson
00:18:59.280 occurred.
00:19:01.280 I was
00:19:01.700 less than
00:19:02.360 impressed
00:19:02.880 by this
00:19:04.220 process,
00:19:05.100 which was
00:19:05.480 initiated in
00:19:06.300 my opinion,
00:19:07.220 as the
00:19:07.540 Democrats
00:19:07.920 themselves
00:19:08.500 indicated,
00:19:09.360 with the
00:19:09.660 announcement
00:19:10.060 that it
00:19:10.420 was time
00:19:10.840 for a
00:19:11.300 quote,
00:19:11.880 black
00:19:12.220 woman to 0.98
00:19:13.100 occupy one
00:19:13.800 of the
00:19:14.000 highest
00:19:14.280 judicial
00:19:14.780 positions
00:19:15.280 in the
00:19:15.620 land.
00:19:16.540 Here is a
00:19:17.260 relevant tweet
00:19:18.040 from the
00:19:19.300 Democrats.
00:19:20.420 During his
00:19:20.920 campaign for
00:19:21.540 president,
00:19:22.360 president Biden
00:19:23.380 announced that
00:19:24.000 he planned to
00:19:24.900 appoint a 0.59
00:19:25.380 black woman to
00:19:26.200 the Supreme
00:19:26.700 Court.
00:19:27.560 Now,
00:19:28.160 Judge
00:19:28.420 Katanji
00:19:28.980 Brown 0.70
00:19:29.280 Jackson
00:19:29.680 has been
00:19:30.320 confirmed to
00:19:30.920 our nation's
00:19:31.480 highest court.
00:19:32.380 He kept his
00:19:32.980 promise to
00:19:33.500 the American
00:19:33.960 people.
00:19:35.800 This was
00:19:36.240 followed up by
00:19:36.980 commentary from
00:19:37.840 former White
00:19:38.560 House Press
00:19:39.100 Secretary
00:19:39.700 Jan Saki,
00:19:41.240 as reported
00:19:41.880 by Reuters.
00:19:44.200 This was an
00:19:44.760 earlier tweet,
00:19:46.320 actually.
00:19:47.260 President Joe
00:19:47.920 Biden stands
00:19:48.700 by his
00:19:49.140 pledge to
00:19:49.960 nominate a 0.97
00:19:50.500 black woman 1.00
00:19:51.120 to the
00:19:51.680 U.S.
00:19:52.080 Supreme
00:19:52.400 Court,
00:19:53.180 White House
00:19:53.560 Press Secretary
00:19:54.500 Jen Saki
00:19:55.300 said,
00:19:56.220 and then
00:19:56.700 somewhat
00:19:57.020 later,
00:19:58.500 20-22-02-25,
00:20:00.680 from President
00:20:01.340 Biden's
00:20:02.000 Twitter account.
00:20:03.760 I sought a
00:20:04.540 nominee with
00:20:05.160 the strongest
00:20:05.660 credentials,
00:20:06.680 record,
00:20:07.140 character,
00:20:07.580 and dedication
00:20:08.040 to the
00:20:08.580 rule of
00:20:08.960 law.
00:20:09.560 That's why
00:20:10.000 I'm excited
00:20:10.460 to nominate
00:20:11.100 Judge
00:20:11.540 Katanji
00:20:12.300 Brown-Jackson
00:20:13.220 to serve
00:20:14.020 on the
00:20:14.320 United States
00:20:14.920 Supreme Court.
00:20:16.520 To this,
00:20:17.340 I responded,
00:20:18.700 once again
00:20:19.260 on Twitter,
00:20:21.160 20-22-02-25,
00:20:23.580 no,
00:20:24.020 you didn't,
00:20:24.900 referring to
00:20:25.400 Biden.
00:20:25.940 You announced
00:20:26.540 publicly that
00:20:27.300 you would
00:20:27.660 limit the
00:20:28.300 search to
00:20:28.780 a specific
00:20:29.320 race and 0.82
00:20:29.940 sex.
00:20:30.800 You eliminated 0.83
00:20:31.460 the vast
00:20:31.960 majority of
00:20:32.640 qualified
00:20:33.100 candidates from
00:20:33.860 consideration,
00:20:35.020 and it is
00:20:35.500 thereby virtually
00:20:36.260 certain,
00:20:37.080 technically,
00:20:37.700 that you
00:20:38.160 failed to
00:20:38.880 pick the
00:20:39.580 strongest
00:20:39.980 candidate.
00:20:40.540 And then
00:20:41.380 I capped
00:20:41.980 it off
00:20:42.300 with this
00:20:42.820 when the
00:20:43.640 nomination
00:20:44.120 was announced.
00:20:45.200 Well,
00:20:45.780 this was
00:20:46.140 20-22-02-25.
00:20:49.020 Well,
00:20:49.760 she looks
00:20:50.580 like she
00:20:51.380 can play
00:20:51.820 the part,
00:20:52.640 and that's
00:20:53.060 what matters.
00:20:54.360 Intersectionality
00:20:55.000 rules.
00:20:56.200 Competence
00:20:56.780 is a
00:20:57.340 ruse.
00:20:58.400 This
00:20:58.640 caused
00:20:59.300 a bit
00:20:59.820 of a
00:21:00.120 firestorm,
00:21:00.960 not least
00:21:01.400 among my
00:21:01.940 Democrat
00:21:02.460 confreres,
00:21:03.500 the very
00:21:03.800 people I
00:21:04.260 had been
00:21:04.520 working with
00:21:05.120 to pull
00:21:05.740 the policies
00:21:06.280 of the
00:21:06.580 party
00:21:06.820 toward the
00:21:07.340 middle.
00:21:08.440 Was it
00:21:08.800 appropriate?
00:21:09.260 Opinions
00:21:10.680 vary,
00:21:11.400 as you
00:21:11.700 will find
00:21:12.140 out,
00:21:12.840 if you
00:21:13.140 have the
00:21:13.480 interest
00:21:13.940 and patience
00:21:14.760 necessary to
00:21:15.660 walk through
00:21:16.200 the discussion
00:21:16.920 subsequent to
00:21:18.200 this introduction.
00:21:19.940 So that's
00:21:20.720 one of
00:21:21.640 three
00:21:22.200 contentious
00:21:23.140 tweets.
00:21:24.280 There were
00:21:24.760 two others
00:21:25.200 that we
00:21:25.520 subjected to
00:21:26.200 interrogation.
00:21:27.640 The first
00:21:28.180 involved,
00:21:29.300 of all
00:21:29.620 things,
00:21:30.960 the sports
00:21:31.560 illustrated
00:21:32.120 swimsuit
00:21:32.820 cover girl, 0.99
00:21:33.620 Yumi
00:21:33.900 Nu,
00:21:34.240 a plus
00:21:35.220 size
00:21:35.560 model,
00:21:36.380 featured
00:21:36.720 prominently
00:21:37.560 on that
00:21:38.000 magazine's
00:21:38.640 most
00:21:38.920 coveted
00:21:39.480 spot.
00:21:40.520 I
00:21:40.760 regarded
00:21:41.120 her
00:21:41.380 photo
00:21:41.700 shoot
00:21:42.200 as a 0.96
00:21:43.200 ploy
00:21:43.600 of
00:21:44.100 politically
00:21:44.580 correct
00:21:45.160 pandering
00:21:45.800 cynicism
00:21:46.560 on the
00:21:47.380 part of
00:21:47.740 sport
00:21:48.080 illustrated's
00:21:49.020 marketers,
00:21:49.880 as a
00:21:50.300 form of
00:21:50.780 exploitation
00:21:51.560 brought
00:21:52.280 about by
00:21:52.740 the model
00:21:53.140 herself and
00:21:53.940 by those
00:21:54.380 who used
00:21:54.900 her image,
00:21:56.240 and as
00:21:57.560 an extension
00:21:58.060 of the
00:21:58.460 current
00:21:58.700 culture war
00:21:59.400 raging about
00:22:00.260 the definitions
00:22:01.000 of such
00:22:01.640 things as
00:22:02.340 female beauty. 0.99
00:22:03.300 And I
00:22:04.800 somewhat
00:22:05.140 impulsively,
00:22:06.700 that's
00:22:07.120 Twitter,
00:22:07.860 made my
00:22:08.300 opinions
00:22:08.720 obliquely
00:22:09.360 known with
00:22:10.560 the following
00:22:11.120 tweet.
00:22:12.740 Sorry,
00:22:13.660 not beautiful,
00:22:15.160 and no
00:22:15.800 amount of
00:22:16.460 authoritarian
00:22:16.980 tolerance is
00:22:18.480 going to
00:22:18.940 change that.
00:22:20.560 This was
00:22:21.780 regarded by
00:22:22.380 some as
00:22:22.860 an entirely
00:22:23.380 justified
00:22:24.000 reaction to
00:22:24.880 some blatant
00:22:25.800 manipulation on
00:22:27.000 the part of
00:22:27.500 Sports Illustrated
00:22:28.440 and by
00:22:29.300 others as
00:22:30.240 an entirely
00:22:30.880 unwarranted
00:22:31.620 attack on
00:22:32.760 a vulnerable
00:22:33.280 young woman.
00:22:34.980 Greg and
00:22:35.500 Jonathan and
00:22:36.180 I debate
00:22:37.180 this issue
00:22:37.940 at length.
00:22:39.860 Going online
00:22:40.880 without ExpressVPN
00:22:41.860 is like not
00:22:42.720 paying attention
00:22:43.280 to the safety
00:22:43.820 demonstration on
00:22:44.620 a flight.
00:22:45.380 Most of the
00:22:45.920 time you'll
00:22:46.360 probably be
00:22:47.000 fine, but
00:22:47.740 what if one
00:22:48.500 day that
00:22:48.940 weird yellow
00:22:49.580 mask drops
00:22:50.220 down from
00:22:50.640 overhead and
00:22:51.360 you have no
00:22:52.120 idea what to
00:22:52.760 do?
00:22:53.220 In our
00:22:53.520 hyper-connected
00:22:54.260 world, your
00:22:54.840 digital privacy
00:22:55.660 isn't just a
00:22:56.340 luxury, it's a
00:22:57.400 fundamental right.
00:22:58.340 Every time you
00:22:58.880 connect to an
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00:23:00.300 in a cafe,
00:23:01.260 hotel, or
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00:23:02.820 essentially
00:23:03.180 broadcasting your
00:23:04.060 personal information
00:23:04.880 to anyone with
00:23:05.840 a technical
00:23:06.300 know-how to
00:23:06.940 intercept it.
00:23:07.680 And let's be
00:23:08.120 clear, it doesn't
00:23:09.080 take a genius
00:23:09.620 hacker to do
00:23:10.240 this.
00:23:10.860 With some
00:23:11.260 off-the-shelf
00:23:11.860 hardware, even
00:23:12.620 a tech-savvy
00:23:13.340 teenager could
00:23:14.140 potentially access
00:23:14.960 your passwords,
00:23:16.000 bank logins, and
00:23:17.020 credit card
00:23:17.500 details.
00:23:18.300 Now, you might
00:23:19.040 think, what's the
00:23:19.880 big deal?
00:23:20.380 Who'd want my
00:23:21.020 data anyway?
00:23:21.900 Well, on the
00:23:22.520 dark web, your
00:23:23.280 personal information
00:23:24.200 could fetch up to
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00:23:26.520 That's right, there's
00:23:27.260 a whole underground
00:23:28.140 economy built on
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00:24:14.840 Jordan.
00:24:18.760 The third tweet and the
00:24:21.100 message that resulted in
00:24:22.320 my suspension from that
00:24:24.020 damnable but compelling
00:24:25.620 platform involved Elliot, 0.97
00:24:28.620 former Ellen Page.
00:24:30.640 I was unimpressed, let's
00:24:32.200 say, given the current
00:24:33.860 psychogenic epidemic raging
00:24:35.860 in relationship to so-called
00:24:37.660 gender identity with Page's
00:24:39.620 decision first to surgically
00:24:41.800 alter his or her body with 0.53
00:24:43.660 the collusion of the
00:24:44.540 relevant physicians and
00:24:46.340 second to trumpet the
00:24:48.640 results of that alteration
00:24:49.980 in an extremely public
00:24:51.160 manner, thus potentially
00:24:53.540 enticing fragile young
00:24:55.120 people to incautiously
00:24:56.660 seek the same
00:24:58.140 hypothetical cure.
00:25:01.200 This tweet resulted.
00:25:04.140 Remember when pride was a
00:25:05.660 sin?
00:25:07.100 And Ellen Page just had her 1.00
00:25:08.700 breasts removed by a 1.00
00:25:10.300 criminal physician.
00:25:11.580 This may be very popular
00:25:13.140 and unpopular.
00:25:14.580 In any case, it is all this
00:25:17.220 that is the subject of the
00:25:18.440 following YouTube discussion.
00:25:20.160 I would ask all of you
00:25:21.520 watching and listening to
00:25:22.960 have some patience, if you
00:25:24.240 will, as the conversation
00:25:25.460 progresses, and to remember
00:25:27.220 that both Mr. Hurwitz and
00:25:29.480 Mr. Paggio were willing to
00:25:31.100 put themselves on the line
00:25:32.400 publicly to help me learn and
00:25:34.720 help me improve my
00:25:35.620 consequent public
00:25:36.500 presentation.
00:25:37.160 I titled the episode with
00:25:40.400 the term apologia rather
00:25:42.320 than response to my
00:25:44.100 critics or, heaven
00:25:45.000 forbid, apology, because
00:25:47.200 apologia has a very
00:25:48.740 specific meaning.
00:25:50.620 Here is how the Merriam
00:25:51.840 Webster Dictionary defines
00:25:53.780 the word.
00:25:55.240 Apologia means matter
00:25:57.200 offered in explanation or
00:25:58.740 defense.
00:25:59.660 Apology usually applies to
00:26:01.420 an expression of regret for a
00:26:02.880 mistake or wrong with
00:26:04.320 implied admission of guilt or
00:26:05.900 fault and with or without
00:26:07.540 reference to mitigating or
00:26:09.060 extenuating circumstances.
00:26:12.020 Apologia implies not
00:26:13.840 admission of guilt or regret,
00:26:15.760 but a desire to make clear
00:26:17.320 the grounds for some
00:26:18.580 course, belief, or
00:26:19.920 position.
00:26:21.040 The most famous apologia in
00:26:23.680 history was offered by
00:26:25.160 Socrates when he was
00:26:26.760 condemned to death. 0.87
00:26:28.920 Defending himself, he
00:26:30.260 turned the tables on his
00:26:31.660 accusers, demonstrating very
00:26:33.740 precisely just why he was
00:26:35.600 feared, hated, and
00:26:37.280 sentenced to die.
00:26:39.040 A more famous missive has
00:26:40.840 rarely, if ever, been
00:26:42.120 penned, and I would very
00:26:44.040 much recommend its
00:26:44.940 reading.
00:26:45.620 It's very short to those
00:26:47.140 watching and listening.
00:26:48.640 I don't claim to have
00:26:49.580 reached Socratic heights in
00:26:50.900 my defense, but do hope
00:26:52.640 that the public discussion
00:26:53.940 will help shed some needed
00:26:56.320 light on the manner in which
00:26:57.620 I might conduct myself
00:26:58.820 better in such matters in
00:27:00.620 the future, and perhaps have
00:27:02.800 some broader educational and
00:27:04.460 moral significance.
00:27:06.180 In closing, in relationship
00:27:07.940 to this intro, I want to
00:27:09.740 sincerely thank both
00:27:10.800 Jonathan Pajot and Greg
00:27:12.120 Hurwitz for having the
00:27:13.420 courage to engage in this
00:27:14.680 conversation.
00:27:16.180 I hope that their efforts
00:27:18.440 are understood in the
00:27:19.620 spirit in which they were
00:27:21.280 offered.
00:27:22.780 On to the show.
00:27:24.140 I'm sitting here today with
00:27:28.320 Greg Hurwitz and Jonathan
00:27:30.160 Pajot.
00:27:30.840 They're two colleagues of
00:27:32.160 mine and two friends, and
00:27:33.720 these things are very
00:27:34.900 tricky, and so the way you
00:27:37.220 think them through is to
00:27:38.260 take a look at your own
00:27:39.140 behavior and to rake
00:27:43.860 yourself over the coals in
00:27:45.200 the most fundamental way.
00:27:46.480 And one of the reasons I
00:27:47.740 like to talk to Greg is
00:27:48.840 because he's very, very good
00:27:50.080 at making that kind of fine
00:27:52.280 discrimination, and he's a 0.74
00:27:53.680 very good advocate for the
00:27:55.880 side of the political
00:27:56.880 spectrum that I'm more
00:27:58.060 alienated from because
00:27:59.120 they've been after me for
00:28:01.320 about six years, and
00:28:02.460 Jonathan is just eminently
00:28:04.000 reasonable in these regards
00:28:05.240 and also quite deep, and so
00:28:07.180 Greg and I decided that he
00:28:08.940 would interrogate me, that's
00:28:11.360 one way of thinking about
00:28:12.460 it, or help me interrogate
00:28:14.240 myself, that's probably more
00:28:16.080 accurate, about how to draw
00:28:19.380 lines in public about
00:28:21.180 contentious things without
00:28:23.000 alienating the people that
00:28:25.900 you're trying to draw lines
00:28:27.600 in relationship to so badly
00:28:29.400 that it's no longer
00:28:30.660 possible to communicate with
00:28:31.960 them.
00:28:32.680 It's funny because I think
00:28:33.760 one of the issues is that,
00:28:35.320 I think even for you, Greg,
00:28:36.640 is that everybody feels like
00:28:38.660 you have a role to play, and
00:28:41.620 I think a lot of this is
00:28:42.620 playing up against this role
00:28:44.280 because you are this catalyst
00:28:46.320 for transformation, you have
00:28:47.960 been this catalyst for
00:28:48.800 transformation, and everybody
00:28:50.520 kind of sees that, and when
00:28:52.920 they see you straying from
00:28:54.380 that role, one way or
00:28:55.880 another, they're wondering
00:28:56.680 what's going on, and sometimes
00:28:58.380 I think people forget that
00:28:59.640 you're a person that also
00:29:01.460 slips and slides and messes
00:29:03.360 up and does all that.
00:29:04.300 Especially on Twitter.
00:29:05.000 Especially on Twitter.
00:29:06.540 But there is, nonetheless, a
00:29:08.200 reality about the fact that
00:29:09.800 you do seem to play some kind
00:29:11.200 of role, and that if, so it's
00:29:15.140 good to talk about it, and I
00:29:16.400 think people are good to play
00:29:17.300 people, and that role should
00:29:19.060 be flexible, and part of it
00:29:20.660 for me is that the role that
00:29:22.340 you're playing has become too
00:29:24.380 rigid in certain ways.
00:29:27.200 That's the danger.
00:29:28.160 Yeah, and it doesn't match my
00:29:29.460 conception of you, and it
00:29:30.780 doesn't match what I think is
00:29:32.020 strategically the best use of
00:29:33.620 your talent and insight.
00:29:35.840 Yeah, well, and so we want to
00:29:36.960 wade into the platform issue,
00:29:39.020 too, because, like, if the issue
00:29:40.380 is serious enough to be worth
00:29:43.180 considering, then maybe it's too
00:29:44.700 serious to say anything about on
00:29:47.660 Twitter.
00:29:48.400 One of the things I should say
00:29:49.440 about those tweets, just to
00:29:50.840 begin with, is I put out a lot
00:29:53.160 of tweets, and some of them go
00:29:55.400 absolutely nowhere, thank God, and
00:29:57.300 then some of them explode, and it
00:29:58.860 is by no means obvious to me in
00:30:00.900 the least which of the things that
00:30:02.560 I'm saying are going to go off
00:30:04.680 like little bombs, and so that's
00:30:06.420 also a very weird thing about
00:30:07.920 Twitter.
00:30:08.200 So if you were exposing yourself
00:30:11.780 to a more robust range of ideas,
00:30:14.440 it would be more obvious to you,
00:30:16.300 is number one.
00:30:17.100 So it's predictably going off in
00:30:18.780 one way, first of all, and second
00:30:21.140 of all, you and I had the
00:30:22.200 conversation.
00:30:22.980 Maybe.
00:30:23.100 It might be that the people who
00:30:24.320 are responding to it are more
00:30:25.920 likely to all come from one side.
00:30:28.840 But your point's still well taken.
00:30:30.920 Well, you can hear, let's call it
00:30:33.040 dog whistles, and by that I don't
00:30:34.360 mean the connotation that it is
00:30:35.740 actually a dog whistle for
00:30:37.140 something that is racist or
00:30:38.660 fascist.
00:30:39.040 Right, so it's not
00:30:39.440 conspiratorial.
00:30:40.440 But people hear it as such.
00:30:41.040 Right.
00:30:41.860 You can tune your ear to that all
00:30:43.700 the way around the spectrum.
00:30:44.820 Now, not perfectly, but your ear
00:30:47.040 is not tuned to things that, to
00:30:50.100 language that you're using and
00:30:51.220 how it translates.
00:30:52.240 And in some ways, part of why I'm
00:30:53.940 talking to you is by dint of our
00:30:55.720 relationship, in some ways I think
00:30:57.060 I might be the best point of
00:30:58.720 contact for what everybody to the
00:31:00.560 left of you thinks.
00:31:01.980 Yeah, I think that's true.
00:31:03.440 And so, and right now, like
00:31:05.040 everybody to the left of you is,
00:31:07.320 does not have a high view of
00:31:09.680 where you are and what you're
00:31:10.660 doing.
00:31:11.040 And that's problematic because
00:31:12.240 we've spent a lot of time bridge
00:31:13.500 building.
00:31:14.020 And also, that's not you.
00:31:15.680 You're not a sort of rigid
00:31:18.660 conservative.
00:31:19.500 And I don't mean all conservatives
00:31:20.980 are rigid.
00:31:21.480 I mean, but you're, you're like a 1.00
00:31:23.920 northern Alberta outlaw biker.
00:31:26.060 Like, that's a big part of your
00:31:27.100 persona.
00:31:27.680 You have a big...
00:31:28.260 In a blue suit.
00:31:28.860 Yeah, I mean, and you're like,
00:31:30.940 there's whole aspects of you that
00:31:33.260 are liberal.
00:31:33.860 And it's the integration of the
00:31:35.160 two parts.
00:31:35.600 God, it's so shameful.
00:31:36.920 It is shameful.
00:31:38.140 That's right.
00:31:38.800 But you can only hide so long.
00:31:39.820 It's like the feminine parts. 1.00
00:31:40.720 Yeah, that's right.
00:31:41.520 Oh, God.
00:31:42.120 Yeah.
00:31:42.320 But so when it's the other thing,
00:31:43.720 it's like, it's not, it's not
00:31:44.880 making sense, but you're also not
00:31:46.120 talking to half of your people.
00:31:47.840 Well, so sometimes I've gone to
00:31:49.460 Greg, gone with Greg to
00:31:51.020 Washington to, to talk to
00:31:52.720 Democrats.
00:31:53.060 And I've often asked Democrats
00:31:55.260 that I've talked to, who I've
00:31:56.960 talked to when the left goes
00:31:58.660 too far.
00:31:59.220 And they're usually unable to
00:32:00.760 answer.
00:32:01.020 And I've suggested that it's
00:32:02.220 equity when they go too far,
00:32:03.780 when they promote equity.
00:32:04.800 And Greg has stepped in several
00:32:07.560 times during these conversations
00:32:08.960 when I'm objecting to equity to
00:32:10.700 say, when you're talking about
00:32:12.840 equity, the Democrats you're
00:32:14.160 talking to don't hear the same
00:32:15.740 thing because they just hear
00:32:16.960 equality of opportunity, which,
00:32:18.560 by the way, equity is definitely
00:32:20.100 not.
00:32:20.760 Most Democrat.
00:32:21.560 I mean, I'm not claiming that.
00:32:22.560 No.
00:32:22.860 Yeah.
00:32:23.300 No, no, no.
00:32:23.740 But that's happened.
00:32:24.500 That's happened directly.
00:32:25.820 Well, the conversations have been
00:32:27.140 happening.
00:32:27.520 And so there is this need for
00:32:29.300 translation.
00:32:29.900 Why don't we start with one of
00:32:31.700 the actual tweets?
00:32:32.660 We can start with the one that...
00:32:34.900 Well, so predating this.
00:32:36.840 Okay.
00:32:37.260 So before these happened, you
00:32:39.120 and I had a conversation where I
00:32:40.580 said, you're tweeting, in my
00:32:42.940 estimation, too erratically and
00:32:44.600 too impulsively and saying if you
00:32:45.920 have something important to say
00:32:46.800 about something, like, say,
00:32:48.440 maybe Islam or, like, race in
00:32:52.400 America, right, it requires a 1.00
00:32:54.720 little bit more.
00:32:55.340 Like, if you're going to pick on
00:32:56.240 these, like, small topics with
00:32:58.140 no complexity, you should take
00:32:59.980 more time and do it as an op-ed,
00:33:01.940 right?
00:33:02.260 And when we've talked about it, I
00:33:03.400 said to you, because you said,
00:33:04.520 look, I've been thinking about it
00:33:05.460 forever.
00:33:05.720 And I said, how long did you
00:33:07.320 think about these three tweets?
00:33:09.080 And your answer was about a
00:33:10.460 second.
00:33:11.140 You know, that's Twitter, right?
00:33:12.400 That's Twitter.
00:33:12.960 Twitter is the place to think.
00:33:13.860 And so that's another issue is
00:33:15.480 one of the things that happened
00:33:17.040 when I got kicked off Twitter, I
00:33:19.300 could have been outraged by it,
00:33:20.880 although I really wasn't.
00:33:22.640 I actually found it bemusing, I
00:33:25.360 suppose, especially given the
00:33:26.600 timing, because it happened
00:33:27.440 exactly the same day that I
00:33:28.980 joined the Daily Wire, which
00:33:30.020 was ridiculously comical in some
00:33:31.720 fundamental sense.
00:33:32.680 But my biggest reaction, in some
00:33:35.740 sense, and of course, this also
00:33:37.900 raises the question of motive, is
00:33:39.580 that I was mostly relieved.
00:33:41.040 It's like I've been trying in
00:33:42.720 some ways to wash my hands of
00:33:44.460 Twitter for three years, and then
00:33:46.420 I kept getting sucked back in.
00:33:49.520 And I'm not trying to make
00:33:51.460 excuses for that, by the way.
00:33:52.780 I'm trying to figure it out.
00:33:53.860 Well, my family has asked me to
00:33:56.440 stop using Twitter sometimes, or
00:33:57.920 said that it might not be good, and
00:33:59.220 I was torn for three reasons, is
00:34:02.300 that I use Twitter to follow a lot
00:34:04.280 of the people that I know, like
00:34:06.580 500 people, to kind of see what
00:34:08.080 they're up to.
00:34:08.980 I used it, at least to some degree,
00:34:11.300 as a topical news source.
00:34:13.200 But more importantly, and more
00:34:14.920 fundamentally, I believe, that
00:34:16.300 because I have a large social media
00:34:19.280 presence, and I'm very interested in
00:34:20.820 communication, I wanted to learn how
00:34:23.420 all the social media networks
00:34:25.120 worked.
00:34:26.280 And you actually cannot learn how
00:34:27.920 they work, and so what's wrong
00:34:29.540 with them, or how to use them
00:34:30.600 properly, without using them.
00:34:33.180 And to use them, you have to
00:34:34.620 subject yourself to the errors that
00:34:36.960 go along with them.
00:34:37.920 And so as a diagnostician, because
00:34:39.360 I've talked to Jonathan Haidt, and
00:34:40.780 to Stephen Pinker, about the
00:34:43.260 pathologies of social media networks,
00:34:45.040 and I can't figure out how they're
00:34:46.880 pathological unless I use them.
00:34:49.060 And the problem with that is that
00:34:50.860 if they're pathological and you use
00:34:53.040 them, then you get sucked into the
00:34:54.420 pathology.
00:34:55.500 And so I couldn't just, because lots
00:34:57.060 of people wrote me about the tweets
00:34:58.740 and said, well, I never use Twitter, and
00:35:00.400 I don't know why this is a problem, and
00:35:01.800 if you were a good person, you just
00:35:02.980 would ignore it completely.
00:35:03.960 It's like, yeah, fair enough.
00:35:07.260 Like, that's a possibility.
00:35:08.920 But it's certainly not obvious.
00:35:10.700 I think anyone on Twitter who has a
00:35:12.280 phone is addicted, me included.
00:35:14.140 And I have to...
00:35:14.660 You said Twitter really did you in
00:35:16.300 during the last election cycle.
00:35:18.160 I can't be on it in any way.
00:35:20.200 And I don't think you know what
00:35:21.620 you're doing when you're on there.
00:35:23.120 You're talking to troll farms from
00:35:24.700 St. Petersburg, and you're talking
00:35:26.760 to algorithms and AI. 0.97
00:35:28.140 You're talking to troll... 0.99
00:35:29.520 Like, you don't even know what 0.98
00:35:30.720 you're doing.
00:35:30.980 Well, you're also talking...
00:35:31.800 Even when you're engaging with the
00:35:33.040 people you think you're following,
00:35:34.540 they don't...
00:35:34.960 They're not fully in control of why
00:35:36.420 they're in there.
00:35:36.960 And so it's like this video game
00:35:38.220 that you're playing, and in the
00:35:39.940 video game, then you're impetuously
00:35:42.480 engaging in ways that can be
00:35:44.120 insulting without having the
00:35:45.900 humility to come out of it and go,
00:35:47.380 oh, wow, I was off on my corner
00:35:48.940 of the internet, and I said this
00:35:50.420 thing in a game circumstance that
00:35:52.060 had a real-world declaration,
00:35:55.380 the context of which didn't make
00:35:57.000 sense to me, but means something
00:35:57.980 else.
00:35:58.280 Let's talk about it.
00:35:59.280 It doesn't mean you're wrong.
00:36:00.100 It also...
00:36:00.680 Well, there's another element of
00:36:02.040 Twitter, too, that's peculiar in a
00:36:04.200 very deep and horrible way, is that
00:36:05.900 first of all, I don't remember how
00:36:07.440 many million followers I had, but
00:36:08.700 lots.
00:36:09.720 And so there are people, many
00:36:11.700 millions of people, who are in the
00:36:14.100 potential database of recipients
00:36:16.020 of my messages.
00:36:16.840 But, like, one in a thousand of
00:36:19.680 them is having the worst day that
00:36:22.920 one in a thousand people is
00:36:25.900 having.
00:36:26.760 And that might be the person who's
00:36:28.600 responding with a comment if they're 0.70
00:36:30.260 not a troll from St.
00:36:31.920 Petersburg.
00:36:31.980 And how many did Elon say are
00:36:33.560 trolls?
00:36:34.180 Well, who knows?
00:36:35.260 Right.
00:36:35.500 That's partly why he didn't buy
00:36:36.580 Twitter.
00:36:36.600 So you're in there playing a game
00:36:37.900 where you're being manipulated
00:36:39.280 constantly by AI, and then it's the
00:36:42.340 tail that wags the dog.
00:36:43.400 Because Twitter, on its own, if you
00:36:45.960 look at the skew of how many people
00:36:47.440 post, the percentage of Americans who
00:36:49.060 post, the percentage then of
00:36:50.380 Americans were, let's just talk
00:36:52.920 America, because this is what some of
00:36:54.420 this is engaging with now.
00:36:55.840 Yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:36:56.080 But then the percentage of them who
00:36:57.720 post the most often, and then what's
00:36:59.620 fake and influence, like, you don't
00:37:01.060 even know what you're engaging with.
00:37:02.120 No, no.
00:37:02.580 And what it is is insanity.
00:37:04.980 Well, that's a huge problem, because
00:37:07.040 it's a biased sample that looks like
00:37:09.600 a community.
00:37:10.600 That's right.
00:37:11.140 And it's biased in ways you don't
00:37:12.560 understand, and then it's even worse,
00:37:14.380 because it's biased towards the 0.96
00:37:16.600 narcissists, and the psychopaths, and 0.99
00:37:18.400 the Machiavellians, and the trolls, and 0.99
00:37:20.620 the AI farms, and then it's even worse
00:37:22.920 than that, because it's biased to
00:37:25.200 promote the worst of their utterances as
00:37:27.820 fast as possible.
00:37:29.080 And you don't need help with that.
00:37:30.440 Like, you've spent six years tied to a
00:37:32.440 cactus, with the worst elements of the 0.90
00:37:34.400 left kicking you in the face for six 0.97
00:37:35.980 years. 0.97
00:37:36.640 Like, you don't need more exposure to
00:37:38.520 the worst of anonymous troll people as
00:37:42.060 generated by AI.
00:37:43.180 No, and I can see what it does in the
00:37:44.100 back of my mind.
00:37:45.120 Like, and this is part of the reason
00:37:46.340 that I'm worried about the situation
00:37:47.920 that we're in right now, is that I can
00:37:49.640 see the desire for mayhem emerging
00:37:52.940 within me as a consequence of being
00:37:55.420 exposed to this kind of narcissistic,
00:37:59.460 caustic element that just runs riot on
00:38:02.960 Twitter.
00:38:03.460 And what happens in part with your
00:38:04.920 responses, to my mind, is it starts to
00:38:07.440 be dehumanizing about the other side,
00:38:09.540 not in a soft, liberal-y sense, but
00:38:11.680 meaning you start to talk about the
00:38:14.100 left as a monolith.
00:38:16.300 And it's like, it's not a monolith,
00:38:17.880 any more than when you say, and we
00:38:20.080 should start with Justice Jackson.
00:38:21.500 Yeah.
00:38:22.020 Because she had one answer that you
00:38:24.000 didn't like, and fair enough, right?
00:38:26.200 Yeah.
00:38:26.840 So, well, we could go through that.
00:38:28.780 So, so I don't remember exactly the
00:38:31.080 specifics of the tweet, but I can set
00:38:32.600 up the context.
00:38:33.500 So when the Biden, and correct me if
00:38:36.420 I'm wrong, when the Biden
00:38:37.220 administration moved forward with the
00:38:38.940 Supreme Court justice nomination, the
00:38:41.240 way they did it strategically, and we
00:38:43.260 had been, you and I had been working
00:38:44.440 with the Democrats for a long time at
00:38:46.000 this point, the way they did it
00:38:47.060 strategically was something like, it's
00:38:49.180 time for a woman and a black woman on 1.00
00:38:52.180 the Supreme Court.
00:38:52.900 And I thought, Jesus, you guys, you
00:38:54.340 already hung her out to dry, because 1.00
00:38:55.820 the right way to do that, even if that
00:38:57.540 was your goal, was to say, it's time
00:38:59.900 for a really qualified, proper
00:39:02.340 candidate on the Supreme Court, and
00:39:04.600 then to move forward with the search,
00:39:06.680 and then say, well, look, we found this
00:39:08.200 person, and isn't it lovely that she
00:39:10.440 has these great qualifications, and also
00:39:12.500 has these other elements of
00:39:14.420 significance.
00:39:15.080 And then she set up for success, and so
00:39:17.220 I thought that was just dismal and 0.99
00:39:18.820 ridiculous. 0.97
00:39:19.720 And I think the way I reacted to it in 0.98
00:39:22.080 the tweet, I also think about this
00:39:23.780 statistically, because if you eliminate
00:39:26.220 men from consideration, then you've
00:39:28.140 reduced the pool of applicants who are
00:39:30.600 qualified by 50%, and then if you reduce
00:39:32.860 it by ethnicity, well, in this case to the
00:39:35.420 black population, you reduce that 50% by 0.98
00:39:38.360 another 87%, and so now you're down to
00:39:41.060 5%, 6% of qualified candidates, and the
00:39:44.620 probability that you're going to find the
00:39:46.140 most qualified candidate in that pool is
00:39:49.000 it's 5%.
00:39:50.380 You could, but it's very unlikely.
00:39:53.560 And so I also found that, given the
00:39:56.080 importance of the position, I also found
00:39:57.820 that annoying.
00:39:59.740 When I pointed that out, that the
00:40:02.820 candidate pool had been restricted to
00:40:04.640 you, you said, well, you don't understand
00:40:06.440 that in the previous nominations, there
00:40:09.060 were all sorts of restrictions that were
00:40:10.820 equally as intense for equally political
00:40:12.520 reasons.
00:40:12.920 So let's talk that through just for a
00:40:14.880 second before we get to the issue of
00:40:16.620 what's a woman. 1.00
00:40:17.540 Well, I said to you, you're not an expert
00:40:19.740 in race in America, and it's evident from
00:40:21.700 the way you're talking about it, and you
00:40:23.260 should approach it with more humility,
00:40:24.660 especially as pertains to blacks in
00:40:28.100 America.
00:40:28.400 And I also said, you're not an expert in
00:40:30.140 the Supreme Court, like by a long
00:40:31.800 shot.
00:40:32.220 And you said, but I'm an expert at
00:40:34.000 selection criteria.
00:40:35.600 That was your answer.
00:40:36.200 And I said, fine.
00:40:37.040 So instead of angry, like tweet warrior
00:40:40.000 Jordan, you can do an assessment of what
00:40:42.680 has pissed you off about this selection
00:40:44.340 process, but then do it for...
00:40:46.020 Well, it was also the strategic issue,
00:40:47.380 because I was also annoyed.
00:40:48.640 I thought, well, Jesus, guys, even by the
00:40:50.700 lights of your own moon, let's say, you
00:40:53.520 screwed up here, because it was 1.00
00:40:54.940 strategically foolish. 0.99
00:40:56.320 You hung your candidate out to dry right 1.00
00:40:58.600 at the beginning, and that was part of
00:40:59.880 the irritation.
00:41:00.720 Why did you not speak up when the last
00:41:02.960 three candidates going through on a
00:41:04.880 shortlist from multiple candidates
00:41:06.920 conservative think tanks and
00:41:09.480 operations?
00:41:10.420 Like, everybody knows the short, short
00:41:12.080 list that's being considered by Trump.
00:41:14.100 That's cut the field immensely.
00:41:15.660 But one shortlist is ideological,
00:41:17.760 political, and what is your opinion
00:41:20.020 based on my politics?
00:41:21.560 The other is literally just gender.
00:41:23.700 And race.
00:41:24.380 And race.
00:41:25.020 Okay, so I would argue in some
00:41:26.960 regards, so let's go to that then,
00:41:29.180 it's gender and race.
00:41:30.260 Reagan said he wanted...
00:41:31.000 Intersectionality, man.
00:41:32.160 He wanted to say that Sandra Day O'Connor,
00:41:34.140 he said he needs to appoint a woman. 0.51
00:41:35.480 So nobody's like home-sobbing.
00:41:36.920 About that.
00:41:37.820 Right?
00:41:38.260 So for a balance of the court,
00:41:40.380 I don't think that he should have done it.
00:41:42.120 I don't like that Biden did it.
00:41:43.440 I think he should have done it the way
00:41:44.500 you did it.
00:41:45.140 And I was outraged strategically,
00:41:48.900 and I was frustrated morally.
00:41:51.320 So you have a list of people who have a
00:41:53.040 certain ideological orientation,
00:41:54.800 and you're saying that's fine.
00:41:56.040 To my mind, the difference...
00:41:56.940 I'm not saying it's fine.
00:41:57.620 No, no, no.
00:41:57.980 You're saying it's less.
00:41:58.880 It's different.
00:41:59.480 It's just different.
00:42:00.440 Do you think it's different?
00:42:01.300 Worse?
00:42:02.140 I think.
00:42:03.240 Intersectionality's worse.
00:42:04.000 I think that, to Jordan's point,
00:42:05.920 I think it's worse because it undermines
00:42:07.660 the person themselves.
00:42:09.060 It's saying, you know,
00:42:10.320 one is saying, okay,
00:42:11.200 you're there because you have
00:42:12.720 a certain political opinion,
00:42:14.020 and the other is saying you're there
00:42:15.020 because you look a certain way.
00:42:16.280 It's not saying you have a certain
00:42:17.260 political opinion.
00:42:17.900 It's saying you're on a short list
00:42:19.020 of approved people
00:42:20.040 in a certain way that's acceptable
00:42:21.860 to people in power
00:42:23.500 who have been negotiating this change
00:42:24.760 for a long time.
00:42:24.780 I have a real hard time
00:42:25.900 with the notion
00:42:26.520 that that short list
00:42:27.400 should be composed
00:42:28.140 in any way
00:42:28.740 of characteristics
00:42:30.960 like gender and race.
00:42:32.340 Okay, so let me just...
00:42:34.240 I understand.
00:42:35.200 I understand.
00:42:35.840 But I was also...
00:42:36.780 Reagan did it too.
00:42:37.380 And Reagan did it too. 0.93
00:42:38.420 And all the first
00:42:39.080 Supreme Court justices did it.
00:42:40.540 They were all white.
00:42:41.740 And there were black people
00:42:42.680 who were here.
00:42:43.540 And so it's not that
00:42:44.760 it's not been done.
00:42:45.960 It doesn't justify it.
00:42:47.540 But what I'm saying is
00:42:48.280 is that everything's complicated.
00:42:49.860 And so if you're an expert
00:42:50.980 on selection,
00:42:51.860 which you are,
00:42:53.160 then no problem.
00:42:54.020 Do this selection
00:42:55.300 and lambast it.
00:42:56.960 But do everybody else also.
00:42:59.240 And put her in a tradition
00:43:00.580 of Supreme Court justices
00:43:02.440 who have been chosen
00:43:03.660 due to different
00:43:04.700 cultural and political tides.
00:43:06.460 And the reason for it is
00:43:07.660 is in the selection of her,
00:43:08.980 rather than who we got
00:43:10.060 who were three justices
00:43:11.840 who prevaricated it best
00:43:14.140 under oath about Roe v. Wade.
00:43:16.380 And when I say prevaricated,
00:43:17.440 I mean they fooled
00:43:18.500 Republican senators,
00:43:19.740 unless that's
00:43:20.280 Kambuki Theater
00:43:20.980 and Susan Collins.
00:43:22.100 Like they were very careful
00:43:23.240 and cautious around this.
00:43:24.560 Or they chose somebody
00:43:25.600 who happens to be 0.94
00:43:26.520 black and a woman.
00:43:27.780 They set it up front. 0.95
00:43:28.960 I don't like that.
00:43:29.960 Who is a spectacular candidate.
00:43:33.300 Look, for me,
00:43:34.620 this has almost nothing to do
00:43:36.340 in this situation
00:43:37.460 with her merits
00:43:38.640 as a candidate.
00:43:39.360 Because it's possible
00:43:40.180 and perhaps even likely
00:43:41.520 that she's a highly
00:43:42.240 credible candidate.
00:43:43.860 But it's also because
00:43:45.480 I was willing,
00:43:46.700 once we had this discussion,
00:43:48.220 I thought,
00:43:48.680 well, I can give you that.
00:43:49.960 I can give you that.
00:43:50.720 All right, so fine.
00:43:51.880 The previous candidates
00:43:52.840 were also selected
00:43:54.180 from an inappropriately
00:43:55.220 restricted shortlist.
00:43:56.440 Jonathan's point is relevant
00:43:57.500 because, well,
00:43:58.040 that was part of the
00:43:58.760 adversarial political process
00:44:00.140 and may be still
00:44:00.900 within the game.
00:44:01.960 We'll leave that aside
00:44:02.780 for now.
00:44:03.680 But I was thinking,
00:44:05.040 okay,
00:44:05.420 I'll give you that.
00:44:07.520 I'll give you that.
00:44:08.100 I'll give you
00:44:08.660 that she was qualified
00:44:11.480 and that previous nominees
00:44:13.500 were subject to
00:44:14.580 an equally biased
00:44:15.540 selection mechanism.
00:44:16.860 When she was subject
00:44:18.200 to that question,
00:44:18.940 what is a woman? 1.00
00:44:20.480 I thought, 1.00
00:44:21.740 that question sucks. 0.98
00:44:23.760 I know it was 1.00
00:44:24.160 a gotcha question.
00:44:25.440 And she could have said,
00:44:27.160 and I'm not also expecting
00:44:28.720 her to be perfect 0.97
00:44:29.560 under those circumstances,
00:44:31.080 right?
00:44:31.320 Because that's a lot to ask.
00:44:33.060 She could have said,
00:44:33.920 don't ask me that question.
00:44:35.860 That's an annoying question.
00:44:37.140 You're just trying
00:44:38.000 to hem me in here
00:44:39.020 and it's inappropriate
00:44:40.220 under the circumstances.
00:44:41.800 And I would have thought,
00:44:42.560 no problem.
00:44:44.980 I'm not a biologist.
00:44:46.300 First of all,
00:44:48.180 that's a really bad answer.
00:44:49.740 It's first of all
00:44:50.240 because it admits
00:44:51.040 that the fundamental issue
00:44:52.100 here is biological
00:44:53.060 and it isn't obvious to me
00:44:54.480 that the people
00:44:55.040 who are on the left
00:44:55.900 who are interested
00:44:56.500 in gender fluidity, 1.00
00:44:57.540 et cetera,
00:44:57.860 want that answer.
00:44:59.120 But it's also,
00:44:59.960 it also annoyed me
00:45:01.380 because it's like,
00:45:02.140 well,
00:45:02.280 wait a second here.
00:45:04.340 We were supposed
00:45:05.180 to be celebrating
00:45:06.020 because you're a woman. 1.00
00:45:08.520 Now, 0.99
00:45:08.800 also because you're black, 0.98
00:45:09.920 but certainly
00:45:10.580 because you're a woman. 1.00
00:45:12.260 And now,
00:45:13.100 we're being asked
00:45:14.240 to not agree
00:45:15.500 that there's such a thing
00:45:16.360 as a woman.
00:45:16.960 It's like,
00:45:17.580 and then I thought,
00:45:18.400 well,
00:45:18.600 that,
00:45:19.060 not only was that annoying
00:45:20.060 for all the reasons
00:45:20.680 I already laid out,
00:45:21.540 but it was annoying
00:45:22.540 because I thought,
00:45:23.260 well,
00:45:23.380 now I have to,
00:45:24.200 I have to sacrifice
00:45:25.520 the principle
00:45:26.100 of non-contradiction.
00:45:27.620 I have to,
00:45:28.160 I'm being called upon
00:45:29.100 to accept two opposing things
00:45:31.200 simultaneously
00:45:32.260 that are not commensurate.
00:45:33.560 And I'm just not willing
00:45:34.940 to do that.
00:45:36.180 And it's a bad answer
00:45:37.500 in very,
00:45:38.100 very many ways.
00:45:38.840 And I do feel bad for her
00:45:40.320 because I know
00:45:41.440 what it's like
00:45:41.980 to be put on the spot
00:45:42.980 in an interview
00:45:43.580 with questions like that.
00:45:45.000 But I'm not a biologist.
00:45:46.680 It's like,
00:45:47.060 Jesus,
00:45:47.520 really?
00:45:48.520 Yeah,
00:45:48.820 no,
00:45:49.260 it's a terrible answer.
00:45:50.480 I'm not going to defend
00:45:51.440 something that I don't agree with.
00:45:52.940 But what I will say,
00:45:54.100 and I thought it was
00:45:54.660 a terrible answer,
00:45:55.360 and there's also a way
00:45:55.960 to answer it
00:45:56.620 as a liberal
00:45:57.300 that's way more reasonable
00:45:58.880 to say,
00:45:59.760 of course,
00:46:00.480 here's generally
00:46:01.040 how we define it.
00:46:02.040 You could also say,
00:46:02.680 I'm not answering it
00:46:03.380 because it's a game.
00:46:04.560 But you could also say,
00:46:05.480 here's generally
00:46:06.080 how we think of it,
00:46:07.060 but there's Kleinfelders
00:46:08.200 and there's variation
00:46:08.960 and there's different stuff
00:46:10.320 in biology.
00:46:10.960 You can say something
00:46:12.260 that's fluid
00:46:12.840 and still,
00:46:14.220 not fluid that way,
00:46:15.840 but flexible
00:46:16.740 and still holding
00:46:18.400 to common sense values
00:46:19.600 that the majority
00:46:20.320 of Americans
00:46:20.760 can understand.
00:46:21.760 There's a bigger part
00:46:22.780 of this.
00:46:23.880 And part of it is,
00:46:24.580 is you're drilled down
00:46:25.640 on your expertise,
00:46:27.660 which is selection process.
00:46:29.100 But you're not drilling
00:46:30.120 down on that
00:46:31.000 generally about
00:46:32.100 the whole Supreme Court
00:46:32.980 and in history,
00:46:33.900 just on her.
00:46:35.040 And additionally,
00:46:35.680 you're missing
00:46:36.260 the bigger picture.
00:46:37.660 And the bigger picture
00:46:38.400 is this.
00:46:39.140 This is a woman
00:46:39.820 who by conservative standards,
00:46:42.000 by the standards
00:46:43.100 that we all care about,
00:46:44.700 meritocracy,
00:46:46.320 toughness,
00:46:47.220 she's a woman of God,
00:46:48.500 she's been married 25 years,
00:46:50.460 she's got kids, 0.53
00:46:51.680 she was the head
00:46:52.840 of the Harvard Law Review,
00:46:54.020 she has more qualifications
00:46:55.180 than are conceivable
00:46:56.440 that I can even remember.
00:46:58.140 And she's... 0.98
00:46:58.760 Then they shouldn't have
00:46:59.660 hung her out to dry 0.90
00:47:00.480 to begin with.
00:47:01.120 That's right.
00:47:01.780 You know what?
00:47:02.200 But same with Kavanaugh.
00:47:03.240 It's Jesus,
00:47:03.880 and how demeaning for her too
00:47:05.160 with all that.
00:47:05.880 I completely agree,
00:47:06.760 but you're contributing
00:47:07.640 to the demeaning
00:47:08.660 instead of saying,
00:47:09.840 wow, here's this thing,
00:47:10.980 and wow,
00:47:11.360 she had a bad moment.
00:47:12.560 You said,
00:47:13.260 and I knew what happened.
00:47:15.620 You were often,
00:47:16.600 I know exactly what happened
00:47:17.820 because you sent me
00:47:18.500 all your emails, 1.00
00:47:19.400 and there was some idiotic 1.00
00:47:20.540 like equity proposal 1.00
00:47:23.160 in physics grants
00:47:24.760 that was happening
00:47:25.580 in...
00:47:26.040 Oh God.
00:47:26.480 Like Justin Trudeau
00:47:28.280 personally wrote.
00:47:29.760 Like it was some awful thing
00:47:30.940 in your morning.
00:47:31.920 And you wrote a tweet
00:47:33.040 about her that said,
00:47:35.440 yay DEI,
00:47:36.820 well, I guess she looks the part.
00:47:38.740 And what I said,
00:47:39.360 and I knew where you were,
00:47:40.900 and I know you're not racist.
00:47:43.240 I'm no more racist
00:47:44.240 than the next Northern Albertan.
00:47:45.980 That's right.
00:47:46.760 That's right.
00:47:47.920 I think...
00:47:48.720 So I just want to interject
00:47:50.680 a little bit
00:47:51.420 because I think that
00:47:53.460 there's a bigger picture,
00:47:54.740 as I think Jordan's coming from,
00:47:57.180 at least for sure
00:47:57.800 that I'm coming from,
00:47:58.920 which is I'm definitely
00:48:00.220 more on the right side.
00:48:02.140 And one of the things
00:48:02.800 I've noticed
00:48:03.540 is that, for example,
00:48:05.280 people get away
00:48:06.720 with calling other people racist
00:48:08.260 nonstop, all the time,
00:48:10.180 in the media,
00:48:11.040 on Twitter,
00:48:12.080 on YouTube.
00:48:12.880 You can call someone racist.
00:48:14.800 That's right.
00:48:15.040 And there are
00:48:15.840 absolutely no consequences.
00:48:17.380 There's no discussion.
00:48:18.420 There's no conversation.
00:48:19.600 And so now,
00:48:20.520 I just want to point out
00:48:21.760 that this conversation
00:48:22.960 is quite particular.
00:48:24.940 Because Jordan 0.51
00:48:26.160 gives out a few tweets
00:48:28.240 that are a little off-color,
00:48:29.780 that are maybe too partisan
00:48:30.800 or whatever,
00:48:31.760 and then everything explodes.
00:48:34.240 And the left is like,
00:48:35.080 well, he's the Nazi we thought.
00:48:36.420 He's the Nazi we thought. 0.96
00:48:37.540 All right.
00:48:37.900 Thank you, God.
00:48:38.640 They're thankful
00:48:39.320 that you made those tweets
00:48:40.440 because everything is
00:48:42.300 consolidating their image
00:48:44.100 that you're a racist. 0.78
00:48:45.760 But I think it's important 0.94
00:48:47.160 to say that that's also
00:48:48.840 part of the discussion.
00:48:50.120 And part of the discussion is,
00:48:51.980 I know you're not racist.
00:48:55.260 I know that.
00:48:56.420 And what I said to you was,
00:48:57.660 if I didn't know you
00:48:59.100 and I read that tweet,
00:49:01.260 and I'm not a big
00:49:02.240 call-everybody-racist person.
00:49:03.060 See, I don't know
00:49:04.320 that I'm not racist.
00:49:06.220 What I do know
00:49:07.100 is that I'm trying
00:49:08.180 very hard not to be.
00:49:10.380 And so...
00:49:10.660 So here's what I mean.
00:49:11.380 Sorry, you're right.
00:49:12.340 Yeah.
00:49:12.620 I mean, you're not racist
00:49:13.760 in the knee-jerk way
00:49:14.920 that it gets applied.
00:49:15.880 I don't think it's a virtue.
00:49:17.460 Right.
00:49:17.760 But I mean,
00:49:18.200 you're not racist
00:49:18.960 the way that people
00:49:19.880 quickly dismiss you
00:49:21.160 as racist.
00:49:22.160 Yeah.
00:49:22.420 Everybody has to look at
00:49:23.800 ways in which we have biases
00:49:25.560 and where that has to do
00:49:27.040 with where we come from.
00:49:27.480 I would say in Canada,
00:49:28.700 for me,
00:49:29.240 that's probably be more acute
00:49:30.740 on the Native American,
00:49:32.860 Native Canadian,
00:49:33.860 First Nations people,
00:49:35.440 Caucasian front.
00:49:36.320 Because where I grew up,
00:49:37.620 the fundamental racial divide
00:49:39.540 was not black versus white.
00:49:41.400 That's not the Canadian divide.
00:49:42.880 The Canadian divide
00:49:43.800 is either French versus English
00:49:45.180 or it's Native versus European.
00:49:48.520 And so when I go to reservations,
00:49:52.020 let's say,
00:49:52.440 and when I interact with the Natives 0.96
00:49:54.700 who I've been coming to know more
00:49:57.160 over the last years,
00:49:59.020 I carry with me
00:50:00.340 the freighted perceptual lens
00:50:03.700 of my upbringing
00:50:04.760 and I'm always on the lookout
00:50:08.120 to see how that might be affecting me.
00:50:10.860 Yes.
00:50:11.180 And that's exactly...
00:50:12.620 But I don't presume
00:50:13.320 that I'm not racist
00:50:14.500 in some sense because...
00:50:16.540 Well, fair. 1.00
00:50:17.360 I mean the foolish racist. 1.00
00:50:19.380 I mean the... 1.00
00:50:19.900 Yeah, I know.
00:50:19.920 And the triumphant racism.
00:50:21.180 But what I'll say is
00:50:22.020 you don't have that
00:50:23.320 and you don't understand it
00:50:24.660 with race in America.
00:50:25.860 And yet you blithely
00:50:27.100 trotted in
00:50:28.660 and you did so in a way
00:50:29.680 that was denigrating
00:50:30.580 that if I didn't know you,
00:50:31.500 I would think was a racial slur.
00:50:33.440 And I'm not somebody
00:50:34.340 who's inclined to think that
00:50:35.500 about people.
00:50:36.220 Like, let's say that
00:50:36.840 there's a liberal
00:50:37.500 who's kind of interesting
00:50:38.480 who dresses...
00:50:39.780 What is it?
00:50:40.960 Tweed punk, right? 0.98
00:50:42.100 Like a tweed punk leprechaun.
00:50:43.660 Interesting ideas.
00:50:45.260 Flashes of brilliance.
00:50:46.700 Like you're sort of
00:50:47.300 looking at him going...
00:50:48.500 Sometimes long periods
00:50:49.680 of brilliance too.
00:50:50.220 That's true, true.
00:50:51.260 Flashes mostly,
00:50:52.360 but occasionally
00:50:52.980 a sustained burst.
00:50:54.620 And so...
00:50:55.720 And you're interested,
00:50:56.760 but you don't agree.
00:50:57.760 And the next move
00:50:58.580 that person does
00:50:59.300 is come up to Canada
00:51:00.360 and make a totally
00:51:02.060 tone-deaf slight
00:51:03.060 against the residential schools
00:51:04.420 in a knowing way.
00:51:05.860 I would say you coming
00:51:07.420 into America 0.68
00:51:08.260 with your lack of knowledge
00:51:11.060 and expressed interest
00:51:13.640 in race in America
00:51:14.780 and choosing to make a comment
00:51:16.680 by tweet
00:51:17.780 about race in America...
00:51:20.380 Was ill-advised.
00:51:21.020 ...that is missing
00:51:21.880 anything that sounds like
00:51:23.320 dog whistles
00:51:23.900 to reasonable people,
00:51:24.980 including me,
00:51:25.580 if I didn't know you,
00:51:26.360 to go,
00:51:26.640 that's a slur.
00:51:27.820 And she's deserving
00:51:28.820 of your respect.
00:51:30.500 Fair enough.
00:51:31.100 Jonathan,
00:51:31.580 do you have anything
00:51:32.080 to close that off with?
00:51:33.960 No, I think...
00:51:35.020 I mean,
00:51:35.420 I think that
00:51:36.400 the feeling I get right now,
00:51:38.580 I don't know, Greg,
00:51:39.200 I feel like we're really
00:51:40.180 falling into a lot of detail
00:51:41.860 and into a lot of weeds
00:51:43.760 in terms of the...
00:51:45.160 this particular thing.
00:51:46.240 I think...
00:51:47.440 My perception is that
00:51:49.520 there's a bigger issue.
00:51:50.980 Like, there's a bigger issue,
00:51:52.080 which is
00:51:52.520 the manner in which
00:51:54.020 for you,
00:51:55.440 as someone who's definitely
00:51:56.560 more on the left,
00:51:58.660 and your relationship
00:51:59.420 with Jordan,
00:52:00.580 and how in this...
00:52:01.820 in his public
00:52:02.480 kind of coming out,
00:52:03.800 you have felt
00:52:04.900 like until then,
00:52:07.020 he was able to
00:52:08.240 speak both sides
00:52:09.720 and to speak reasonably
00:52:10.800 to both sides.
00:52:11.740 And although,
00:52:12.440 I think Jordan's probably
00:52:13.620 more conservative
00:52:14.200 than you are,
00:52:14.780 but you felt like
00:52:15.460 he's honest,
00:52:17.020 he takes it seriously,
00:52:20.000 and like,
00:52:20.640 the Channel 4 interview
00:52:21.360 for me was...
00:52:22.120 Yeah.
00:52:22.440 It's like that image
00:52:23.420 of him actually
00:52:24.880 undermining
00:52:25.760 the way people
00:52:26.980 perceive him,
00:52:28.280 and...
00:52:28.460 And laughing,
00:52:29.420 and being charming,
00:52:30.400 and being flexible.
00:52:31.320 And actually kind of
00:52:32.580 bringing...
00:52:33.100 All of which is hard
00:52:33.520 to do on Twitter.
00:52:34.300 That's right.
00:52:35.020 That's right.
00:52:35.600 And there's something,
00:52:36.280 I think,
00:52:36.940 the major perception
00:52:38.180 you have is that
00:52:38.900 with these tweets
00:52:39.580 and some of the messaging
00:52:40.640 that has been happening
00:52:41.840 recently,
00:52:42.700 you feel like you don't
00:52:43.600 have access to that Jordan
00:52:44.760 anymore.
00:52:45.120 Or you can't defend Jordan
00:52:46.640 to your side
00:52:47.880 in the way that you
00:52:48.580 used to be able to.
00:52:49.260 That's right.
00:52:49.780 That's beautifully stated.
00:52:50.500 I think it's just important
00:52:51.140 to kind of keep it
00:52:51.920 into that.
00:52:52.580 And that's exactly right.
00:52:54.060 And the dream
00:52:54.640 is a lot about that
00:52:55.700 because part of it for me
00:52:56.760 is you're not supposed
00:52:57.800 to be that...
00:52:58.640 You're not supposed
00:52:59.140 to be speaking
00:52:59.860 in wooden language.
00:53:01.280 You're not supposed
00:53:01.660 to be speaking in...
00:53:02.000 Well, let's go to
00:53:02.600 the dream then here.
00:53:03.620 So this is a strange
00:53:04.720 thing to do
00:53:05.220 in the middle
00:53:05.580 of this conversation,
00:53:06.580 but it makes sense.
00:53:08.420 Like, one of the things
00:53:09.320 I did learn as a clinician,
00:53:10.620 and certainly in my own marriage
00:53:11.840 and in my own life,
00:53:12.860 that often,
00:53:14.080 if you are fortunate,
00:53:15.380 during a time of
00:53:17.180 query and crisis,
00:53:19.760 let's say,
00:53:20.360 indeterminacy,
00:53:21.620 now and then
00:53:22.120 you can get a dream.
00:53:23.300 And if you're lucky,
00:53:24.520 the dream will reveal
00:53:25.400 things to you
00:53:26.140 that are part of the answer
00:53:28.060 to that problem.
00:53:29.480 And that's not that surprising
00:53:30.680 because dream is a form
00:53:31.760 of thought,
00:53:32.400 and the dream thought
00:53:33.520 is trying to solve problems.
00:53:34.740 And so it just turned out
00:53:35.680 that when Greg came here,
00:53:37.460 he had a dream,
00:53:38.380 which is a very comical dream.
00:53:40.520 And so Jonathan and I
00:53:42.000 and Greg sat down
00:53:42.880 and talked about
00:53:43.500 this dream a bit,
00:53:44.240 and we thought we might
00:53:44.980 discuss it in this forum.
00:53:48.520 One of the things
00:53:49.220 I learned from Jung,
00:53:50.120 and I believe that this is true,
00:53:51.560 is that dreams are the voice
00:53:52.760 of nature
00:53:53.300 in the deepest sense,
00:53:54.660 and they don't lie.
00:53:56.040 Now, you may not be able
00:53:57.220 to figure out what they mean
00:53:58.140 because the dream
00:53:59.000 is trying to figure out
00:54:00.640 what things mean.
00:54:01.860 And so you have to
00:54:03.120 translate the dream
00:54:04.360 just like you have to
00:54:05.100 translate the work of literature.
00:54:06.300 But the dream at least
00:54:07.220 has that sense
00:54:08.820 of objective truth
00:54:10.240 in the deepest sense.
00:54:12.260 And you can really rely on it.
00:54:14.760 So do you want to
00:54:15.520 lay out the dream a bit?
00:54:16.760 And then Jonathan,
00:54:17.520 you had some really good
00:54:18.580 This is so funny.
00:54:19.960 It's like for a liberal.
00:54:22.760 Have your dream analyzed
00:54:24.460 by Jordan Peterson
00:54:25.520 on the World Wide Web
00:54:26.780 for the Daily Wire.
00:54:28.040 It's like,
00:54:28.420 what could be a worse idea?
00:54:30.620 It's like,
00:54:30.900 Yeah, how could this go wrong?
00:54:32.180 This should be just fantastic.
00:54:33.800 And not at all like
00:54:35.100 self-adoring
00:54:36.300 at the same time.
00:54:37.620 This is the setup then.
00:54:38.700 We're going to talk
00:54:39.360 about my dream with you.
00:54:40.400 Because you're not
00:54:40.940 in enough trouble already.
00:54:42.680 So, okay.
00:54:44.260 So I woke up in the dream
00:54:46.660 having left a place
00:54:48.440 that was an idyllic,
00:54:50.240 bucolic,
00:54:51.760 New England-y college.
00:54:53.700 Right?
00:54:54.060 In the countryside,
00:54:55.240 green, hilly slopes.
00:54:57.260 And I'd already left there,
00:54:58.920 but I lived there
00:54:59.520 in a dorm room.
00:55:00.360 It's a dream humanist tradition
00:55:02.080 in some real sense.
00:55:02.980 That's right.
00:55:03.520 That's right.
00:55:04.720 And you're comfortable there
00:55:06.380 and like it.
00:55:06.800 I love it.
00:55:07.360 I love it.
00:55:07.980 Because you're a real student.
00:55:09.120 And what's interesting is
00:55:10.360 I think of that as liberal
00:55:12.680 because liberal arts education,
00:55:14.220 which is the most,
00:55:15.360 like it's the...
00:55:16.340 And I thought of Hillsdale.
00:55:17.860 Right,
00:55:18.200 but it's also conservative
00:55:19.280 because it's little c
00:55:20.280 and little l
00:55:20.920 and that's what they look like.
00:55:22.380 Yeah,
00:55:22.860 it's the actual union
00:55:24.480 of the two traditions
00:55:25.440 in the highest sense,
00:55:26.740 that.
00:55:27.500 Yeah.
00:55:27.780 It's a cloister
00:55:28.600 where you can explore ideas.
00:55:30.660 And so part of this is,
00:55:31.660 it's like,
00:55:32.140 so the best of
00:55:33.040 of conservatism
00:55:34.480 and the best of liberalism
00:55:35.600 when they live together
00:55:36.620 in that way,
00:55:37.080 it's perfect.
00:55:38.500 It's the humanity.
00:55:39.380 So that's where you worked.
00:55:41.160 Yeah.
00:55:41.300 Right.
00:55:41.560 And so I'm in a forest
00:55:42.860 and it's a,
00:55:44.980 it's dark and nightmarish
00:55:46.460 and it's stark
00:55:47.300 and it's like dead branches
00:55:48.840 that cast long shadows
00:55:50.280 and I'm walking through it.
00:55:51.320 Well,
00:55:51.560 that's a great image
00:55:52.480 because the dead branch
00:55:53.840 is the dead wood
00:55:55.160 that should burn off
00:55:56.080 and it's casting a long shadow.
00:55:57.700 So that ties into
00:55:58.580 the whole shadow issue
00:55:59.800 and it is dead branches
00:56:01.660 that cast the longest
00:56:02.900 shadows
00:56:03.460 and grip at you
00:56:04.680 when you're walking
00:56:05.260 through the forest.
00:56:06.120 And so that's a great image.
00:56:07.820 That's right.
00:56:08.860 And so I'd love
00:56:11.380 to take credit for it.
00:56:12.360 As a writer,
00:56:13.000 I'm like,
00:56:13.340 yeah,
00:56:13.480 it's wonderful,
00:56:14.040 but it has nothing
00:56:14.920 to do with me.
00:56:16.340 But so then I arrive
00:56:17.940 at this place
00:56:18.740 and it's so interesting
00:56:19.760 and it's like,
00:56:20.820 so this is all offensive,
00:56:22.020 but we're going to just,
00:56:23.100 we're going to talk it through.
00:56:24.220 So you're there
00:56:25.580 and you're like hillbilly you.
00:56:27.520 You're more hillbilly you
00:56:28.980 than you are,
00:56:29.680 I should say.
00:56:30.260 It's a different gradation
00:56:31.400 of hillbilly.
00:56:32.540 And you're still dressed
00:56:33.620 in your like,
00:56:34.560 you know,
00:56:34.940 like Boston Celtics
00:56:37.580 leprechaun outfit,
00:56:38.860 but it's like two degrees.
00:56:39.840 I don't really like it
00:56:40.140 when you reduce
00:56:40.740 Northern Albertan hillbillies
00:56:42.200 to American hillbillies.
00:56:43.900 I think that's kind of demeaning.
00:56:45.040 We're our own kind of hillbillies.
00:56:45.820 That was his experience.
00:56:47.120 That's the dream.
00:56:47.840 By the way,
00:56:48.920 hillbillies are great too.
00:56:50.440 So it's like,
00:56:50.920 it's denigrating,
00:56:51.800 but like I want to make sure
00:56:52.860 like no hillbillies
00:56:54.220 should be harmed
00:56:54.940 in the making of this dream
00:56:55.940 because like I'll hang out
00:56:57.680 with hillbillies all day.
00:56:59.240 So anyways,
00:57:00.100 but it's like bad
00:57:01.040 and it's degenerate 0.51
00:57:02.100 and you had a great point on this
00:57:04.100 and you're there
00:57:04.920 and everyone,
00:57:05.620 you're in like overalls suit.
00:57:08.260 It's like tweet overalls.
00:57:09.980 It's so funny.
00:57:11.820 It was so funny.
00:57:13.400 And everyone's all around
00:57:14.460 and it's very like participatory
00:57:16.100 and everyone's kind of
00:57:17.400 partying around.
00:57:19.080 And I was,
00:57:19.900 and I got there.
00:57:20.640 You said there was
00:57:21.020 a deliverance element too.
00:57:22.260 Total deliverance.
00:57:22.780 Yeah, people are like. 0.96
00:57:23.820 There's like incestuous sex. 0.95
00:57:24.680 Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. 0.97
00:57:25.860 The whole hillbilly catastrophe
00:57:27.440 happening in the backwoods.
00:57:28.720 There is a hillbilly.
00:57:29.520 There's a Jordan Peterson
00:57:30.500 like hillbilly.
00:57:32.820 Yeah, it's going on.
00:57:34.300 It's like a festival.
00:57:35.560 But people are playing stuff
00:57:36.760 like a cello
00:57:37.600 made out of like forks
00:57:38.820 and strings
00:57:39.500 and like everything's homemade
00:57:40.720 and it was sad.
00:57:42.280 And as you said,
00:57:43.040 it's like,
00:57:43.560 well, that's harder to make
00:57:44.440 than you think.
00:57:45.100 Like you could try
00:57:45.680 and make a cello
00:57:46.240 out of a fork and strings.
00:57:47.480 But it's a mess.
00:57:48.580 And you're walking around
00:57:49.640 and you're your inquisitive self
00:57:51.260 like where your hands
00:57:52.060 are behind your back
00:57:52.900 and your brows furrowed
00:57:54.040 and you're like,
00:57:54.540 you're paying attention well
00:57:55.900 when you're paying attention well.
00:57:57.500 But it was performative.
00:57:59.440 And I was mad at you
00:58:00.440 when I was there.
00:58:01.240 And then you said something
00:58:02.340 that I don't remember
00:58:03.100 but it was denigrating to me
00:58:04.660 in a way that
00:58:05.640 it was,
00:58:08.460 I wish I could remember it.
00:58:09.600 But you basically said
00:58:10.500 something that was like
00:58:11.860 trying to call forth in me
00:58:15.380 an imposter syndrome
00:58:16.520 that I'm acting in ways
00:58:18.360 that I don't belong
00:58:19.260 and I should be embarrassed
00:58:20.340 and that I'm embarrassing myself
00:58:21.840 and I should watch it.
00:58:23.060 So it's an accusation
00:58:24.020 of something like hypocrisy,
00:58:25.620 something like that.
00:58:27.000 Imposterism.
00:58:27.540 I'm not as good
00:58:28.680 or where I think that I am.
00:58:30.040 Yeah.
00:58:30.580 And I was really mad at you.
00:58:32.400 And I was mad at you
00:58:33.300 on two fronts.
00:58:34.380 Actually,
00:58:34.620 I was dream mad at him
00:58:35.860 the whole next day
00:58:36.520 at the seminar.
00:58:37.620 They had to keep you apart.
00:58:38.920 Yeah.
00:58:39.240 He showed up.
00:58:40.000 I'm like, 0.59
00:58:40.360 you were the worst.
00:58:41.440 You're like, 0.98
00:58:42.420 yeah,
00:58:42.700 I was dream mad at him
00:58:44.200 like the whole day.
00:58:45.060 It still hasn't fully worn off 0.99
00:58:46.400 because you were horrible. 0.97
00:58:48.180 But, 0.99
00:58:48.680 so I was mad at you
00:58:49.420 for two things.
00:58:50.220 One of them is
00:58:50.840 when I got there
00:58:51.500 I was like,
00:58:52.140 yay,
00:58:53.020 Jordan's here.
00:58:53.880 This is going to be fun.
00:58:55.660 This is going to be an adventure.
00:58:56.720 And that's the first rule
00:58:57.620 of our friendship,
00:58:58.320 always.
00:58:58.620 We always have fun
00:58:59.940 and we always laugh
00:59:01.480 unless things are really shitty
00:59:03.000 and then we can at least
00:59:04.160 make fun of it
00:59:05.000 in an irreverent way
00:59:06.000 that makes it somewhat
00:59:07.300 tolerable.
00:59:08.860 Like if there's a health thing
00:59:10.180 or like we've been through plenty
00:59:11.380 on both sides
00:59:12.300 that have been awful
00:59:13.080 but we're still funny
00:59:14.500 and it still is.
00:59:16.140 I'm funny with you
00:59:17.180 but we're still funny.
00:59:18.700 Yes,
00:59:19.100 that's true.
00:59:21.400 Funnier looking.
00:59:23.100 Okay.
00:59:23.360 I have to disagree.
00:59:24.200 Greg is sadly funnier
00:59:25.380 than you.
00:59:25.720 Oh God.
00:59:26.740 I have to.
00:59:27.160 I just don't know what to say.
00:59:29.240 You're all like locked in.
00:59:30.960 Yeah.
00:59:31.460 You don't take as many swings.
00:59:32.900 It's sad.
00:59:33.820 But so you're not,
00:59:34.900 it wasn't like
00:59:35.600 you should be safe.
00:59:37.380 That's not how,
00:59:38.040 that's not my relationship
00:59:38.720 with you.
00:59:39.160 You're not like a safe,
00:59:40.700 you're not a safe space
00:59:42.240 for me.
00:59:43.060 Right?
00:59:43.400 In any way.
00:59:44.320 But you're fun
00:59:45.300 and you're adventure
00:59:46.160 and you always,
00:59:47.800 always have my best
00:59:48.940 intentions in mind.
00:59:50.860 Even when we're fighting
00:59:51.920 and even when we're arguing
00:59:52.840 and you didn't.
00:59:54.120 And I was like,
00:59:54.860 that's not you.
00:59:56.560 And I knew it right away.
00:59:57.720 And by the way,
00:59:58.240 So that's also
00:59:59.040 what you're worried about
00:59:59.940 at a deep level.
01:00:00.760 And the Daily Wire thing
01:00:02.500 also brings that up
01:00:03.420 because people have been
01:00:04.500 wondering,
01:00:05.200 you know,
01:00:05.460 what's going to happen?
01:00:07.020 Is this,
01:00:07.780 is this,
01:00:08.600 is this a tilt
01:00:10.120 into something
01:00:10.760 outside of the domain
01:00:11.780 that we've been talking about?
01:00:12.980 And there's a moral hazard
01:00:13.880 associated with that.
01:00:15.160 Plus they're all hillbilly.
01:00:16.100 Yeah, it's like,
01:00:16.720 let me insult
01:00:17.540 like a transcendently
01:00:19.340 competent
01:00:20.560 black Supreme Court justice 0.98
01:00:22.380 like a 25-year-old 0.99
01:00:25.040 like big-boned woman 1.00
01:00:26.840 and like a trans person
01:00:29.140 and then quit Twitter
01:00:30.360 and join the Daily Wire.
01:00:31.600 It's like,
01:00:32.020 okay, good, Jordan.
01:00:33.000 This'll be,
01:00:33.780 this'll make the bridge-building
01:00:35.120 aspects of my life easier
01:00:36.760 and to explain
01:00:37.660 why you're not like
01:00:38.720 a captured entity.
01:00:40.320 And let me also do it
01:00:41.300 in unthoughtful
01:00:42.820 captured language,
01:00:44.100 right,
01:00:44.420 that has worked its way
01:00:45.840 through a particular ecosystem.
01:00:48.100 And by the way,
01:00:48.640 Daily Wire,
01:00:49.140 I don't have that bias.
01:00:50.240 Like I'm,
01:00:50.900 you know,
01:00:51.260 I've met Ben,
01:00:52.140 Andrew Klavan's a friend.
01:00:52.780 Well, but they're also concerned
01:00:53.480 about that on the Daily Wire front.
01:00:55.100 I mean,
01:00:55.320 part of the reason that
01:00:56.500 we join forces
01:00:57.560 is because they want to escape
01:00:58.880 from the narrow partisanship.
01:01:00.140 And this is a conversation
01:01:00.980 we could have in good faith
01:01:02.540 with Ben and Andrew Klavan.
01:01:04.820 Like we could,
01:01:05.360 they could be here.
01:01:06.320 This isn't us talking
01:01:07.080 behind their back.
01:01:08.140 Yeah, yeah.
01:01:08.520 We're obviously not
01:01:09.200 behind their back.
01:01:09.980 Well, yeah.
01:01:11.260 Yeah, since they're all here.
01:01:12.940 Yeah, thanks.
01:01:13.660 Peering down your head.
01:01:14.140 I forgot about,
01:01:15.100 I forgot about that.
01:01:16.840 That's right.
01:01:17.660 Yeah, yeah.
01:01:18.020 Well, this is so weird.
01:01:19.000 Okay, so back to the dream.
01:01:20.120 Okay, so back to the dream.
01:01:21.200 So I was really mad at you.
01:01:22.420 Yeah.
01:01:22.700 And I knew in real,
01:01:23.540 it was an embodied dream
01:01:24.800 because in real time,
01:01:26.600 I knew that it was also about this.
01:01:28.500 And that's really weird.
01:01:29.660 And so I was embodied in that,
01:01:31.120 which was cool.
01:01:31.900 So I was like,
01:01:32.480 okay,
01:01:33.280 this is now,
01:01:34.240 and I knew I'm coming
01:01:35.460 to have this conversation.
01:01:36.720 And I don't want to have
01:01:37.960 this conversation really.
01:01:40.420 I do want,
01:01:41.280 I need to have the conversation,
01:01:42.980 but I don't necessarily want to.
01:01:44.140 Yeah.
01:01:44.540 Because I prefer talking
01:01:46.220 to you privately.
01:01:47.400 Yeah.
01:01:47.560 I think that there might be
01:01:48.920 more good that comes from this.
01:01:50.440 Yeah.
01:01:50.680 It exposes me to a lot,
01:01:52.640 which I'm not fearful of,
01:01:54.440 but I want to make sure
01:01:55.300 that it's worth it.
01:01:56.680 Right?
01:01:57.180 And I also am not,
01:01:58.080 I'm not certain
01:01:59.860 that this isn't performative
01:02:01.080 in the same way
01:02:01.620 that I'm critical of you
01:02:02.940 after the,
01:02:04.340 when you got kicked off Twitter
01:02:05.580 and everything turned into
01:02:06.860 like the Kardashians of Twitter
01:02:08.760 Yeah.
01:02:09.140 who have,
01:02:10.040 you know,
01:02:10.900 big prefrontal cortexes.
01:02:12.320 Like I don't like that whole game.
01:02:14.140 But so part of what happened
01:02:15.440 was I was,
01:02:17.040 so I knew that the dream
01:02:18.420 was this same thing.
01:02:19.740 And I also knew
01:02:20.700 when you came at me
01:02:21.420 for the imposter syndrome
01:02:22.480 that it hit me
01:02:23.660 and it hurt the way
01:02:24.880 that insult hurts.
01:02:25.820 Like it shuttered me.
01:02:26.820 Like in boxing
01:02:27.500 when you take a full blow,
01:02:28.960 but then it wasn't real.
01:02:31.400 Like it couldn't touch me.
01:02:32.680 I felt it in full
01:02:33.720 and then I went,
01:02:34.420 uh-uh, you're wrong.
01:02:35.280 You're not you.
01:02:35.980 I don't have that in this.
01:02:38.100 I might have it
01:02:38.620 in plenty of other things.
01:02:39.740 Plenty of other ways 0.99
01:02:40.440 I might be a fool 0.98
01:02:41.540 or be as of yet 0.99
01:02:43.820 undeceived about the ways
01:02:45.140 that I think I know
01:02:46.540 more than I do.
01:02:47.420 Yeah.
01:02:47.680 But it's not this.
01:02:48.740 And that's why
01:02:49.480 you didn't have
01:02:50.040 my best interests in mind.
01:02:51.200 Mm-hmm.
01:02:51.960 If you've done that,
01:02:52.760 you've done that plenty
01:02:53.500 on things that I don't know
01:02:55.560 and fine.
01:02:56.540 Yeah.
01:02:56.720 Right?
01:02:57.000 Like let's get it out.
01:02:58.660 Let's muck around it.
01:02:58.880 Yeah, but that was,
01:02:59.480 that was the fear
01:03:00.580 in the dream
01:03:01.180 is that I'm criticizing you
01:03:03.380 and not acting in good faith.
01:03:05.000 That's right.
01:03:05.340 So we're in amongst
01:03:06.260 the hillbillies
01:03:07.440 partying away.
01:03:08.140 And you're,
01:03:08.860 you're doing,
01:03:09.960 you're your focused
01:03:10.900 attentive self.
01:03:12.400 But as I'm watching you,
01:03:14.180 I'm realizing,
01:03:15.360 one, that it's performative
01:03:16.440 because I'm looking at it being,
01:03:17.600 because I,
01:03:17.960 I look where you look often.
01:03:20.180 Right?
01:03:20.500 And to some extent,
01:03:21.260 vice versa.
01:03:21.880 If something's like
01:03:22.360 really of interest to you
01:03:23.440 in your focus.
01:03:23.880 Okay, so I got,
01:03:24.660 I got something popped
01:03:25.640 into my mind about that.
01:03:26.640 You know, when I was a kid,
01:03:27.920 I hung around
01:03:29.220 with the more delinquent guys.
01:03:31.160 Not that there was
01:03:31.880 any shortage of them
01:03:32.760 in Fairview.
01:03:33.720 And there was a reason
01:03:34.400 for that.
01:03:36.260 I mean, first of all,
01:03:37.220 I was intellectual
01:03:37.940 and I was small
01:03:38.860 and because I was younger
01:03:40.100 in my class,
01:03:40.820 I also had a harder time
01:03:42.140 on the athletic front.
01:03:43.680 And so there was a bit
01:03:44.320 of compensation in that,
01:03:45.780 I would say,
01:03:46.700 to hang around
01:03:47.300 with the tough kids,
01:03:48.380 the tough misbehaving kids.
01:03:50.180 And I could do that.
01:03:51.200 I mean,
01:03:51.960 it,
01:03:52.340 it had its costs,
01:03:53.680 but I could do that.
01:03:54.640 And the,
01:03:54.960 there weren't a lot
01:03:55.520 of alternatives as well.
01:03:57.180 It's a very small town.
01:03:58.220 And so there might be
01:03:59.980 a part of me too
01:04:00.660 that has a proclivity
01:04:01.880 to want to appeal more
01:04:05.000 to that rough and tumble
01:04:08.540 working class,
01:04:10.480 rough edge of the world,
01:04:11.620 which I also think
01:04:12.500 is a plus.
01:04:13.500 And I think you have that
01:04:14.420 to some degree.
01:04:14.920 We do.
01:04:15.280 And one of the things
01:04:15.940 we've been talking about
01:04:16.760 is like,
01:04:17.180 is the fact that I swear too much.
01:04:18.660 I'm a crime novel.
01:04:19.400 Right.
01:04:19.740 And in certain circumstances,
01:04:21.340 it's very much part
01:04:22.580 of my parlance.
01:04:23.460 And I don't think it's,
01:04:24.640 I don't think it's
01:04:25.820 as usefully updated
01:04:27.160 when appropriate
01:04:27.800 as it could be.
01:04:28.500 Yeah, I think that's right.
01:04:28.840 Well, I also think
01:04:29.660 that it's been good for you
01:04:30.840 in many, many senses
01:04:33.120 to also have had some appeal
01:04:35.020 to the military types
01:04:36.200 and the police types.
01:04:37.020 Yeah, yeah, yeah.
01:04:37.680 So that doesn't help
01:04:38.500 with the swearing part.
01:04:39.740 No, no.
01:04:41.020 Yeah, fair enough.
01:04:42.360 I've just learned
01:04:43.040 all the best stuff.
01:04:44.080 But no, totally.
01:04:44.780 So you can easily,
01:04:45.700 you can easily pan,
01:04:47.200 you can,
01:04:47.640 there can easily be a part
01:04:48.660 of that that's a pandering
01:04:49.820 and an inappropriate pandering.
01:04:52.320 Oh, yeah, yeah.
01:04:53.040 And so the performative element,
01:04:55.160 the dream is putting me forward
01:04:57.300 as inappropriately performative
01:04:59.620 in relationship
01:05:01.360 to the dream character's
01:05:03.380 criticism of you.
01:05:03.500 Like viewing the beautiful
01:05:04.120 like fork cello.
01:05:05.860 And so I'm looking at it
01:05:06.860 and then I have this realization
01:05:07.740 where I'm like,
01:05:08.220 Jordan,
01:05:08.640 like the hillbilly incest fork cello,
01:05:11.080 it's just not that fascinating.
01:05:12.940 And like,
01:05:13.240 what am I doing here?
01:05:14.520 We should be paying attention
01:05:15.480 to something else
01:05:16.260 and I usually pay attention
01:05:17.360 to what you pay attention to
01:05:18.860 because it illuminates
01:05:20.460 meaning or discussion point
01:05:22.860 or a fruitful disagreement.
01:05:24.740 And I just realized
01:05:25.420 this is,
01:05:26.080 there's no life here.
01:05:26.980 This is kind of dead.
01:05:28.360 Well,
01:05:28.860 that's that incestuous motif,
01:05:32.060 you know.
01:05:32.340 So one of the things
01:05:33.220 Jung talked about,
01:05:35.380 he has a whole symbolic chapter
01:05:36.920 on this about
01:05:37.700 the place where only
01:05:39.280 like mates with like.
01:05:40.900 Well,
01:05:41.100 Jonathan,
01:05:41.600 you should jump in.
01:05:42.440 So I think
01:05:42.960 one of the things
01:05:43.940 that I've been thinking about
01:05:45.260 is to understand,
01:05:46.560 let's say,
01:05:46.760 if we think about right,
01:05:47.820 left as a basic category,
01:05:49.440 the way that you talk about it,
01:05:50.740 which is conservative
01:05:51.820 and then more liberal
01:05:53.280 and more open,
01:05:54.600 the conservative,
01:05:56.160 they tend to,
01:05:57.020 the way that we dehumanize,
01:05:58.460 we could say,
01:05:58.860 or the monster
01:05:59.480 that we perceive,
01:06:00.780 conservative tends to
01:06:02.260 have something like 0.96
01:06:03.940 a chimera monster.
01:06:05.600 Things that don't go together,
01:06:07.580 the idea of something
01:06:08.540 which is strange,
01:06:09.340 which is unrecognizable,
01:06:10.700 something which is fluid
01:06:11.960 and mixed
01:06:12.540 and a mixture of categories.
01:06:14.080 That's what they see
01:06:14.820 as a monster.
01:06:15.040 That's what they see
01:06:16.000 as a monster.
01:06:16.620 That's what they project
01:06:17.280 as a monster.
01:06:17.780 And interestingly enough,
01:06:19.920 let's say from the left side,
01:06:21.940 the monster is the opposite.
01:06:23.580 It's something that's too close.
01:06:24.840 And the hillbilly
01:06:25.400 has become mythologically
01:06:27.120 in American culture
01:06:28.700 the image.
01:06:29.680 And so Deliverance
01:06:30.460 is like a left-wing fantasy.
01:06:32.740 And the hills have eyes
01:06:34.060 as a horror movie.
01:06:35.140 So you have this idea
01:06:36.500 of, first of all,
01:06:37.220 you have the idea
01:06:37.760 of something that's too local,
01:06:39.320 something that is incestuous
01:06:41.120 and therefore is too close,
01:06:43.060 you know,
01:06:43.420 and is too,
01:06:44.660 their identity is so local
01:06:46.360 that it almost becomes
01:06:47.900 idiosyncratic
01:06:48.640 because it's so local.
01:06:50.440 And it can become sterile
01:06:51.820 and deformed
01:06:52.420 as a consequence.
01:06:53.500 And in real time,
01:06:55.000 in the dream,
01:06:55.780 and that's what I mean
01:06:56.440 that it was an embodied dream,
01:06:57.540 I thought,
01:06:58.320 that's how I think
01:06:59.280 when I'm seeing the tweets,
01:07:00.580 which is not that
01:07:01.460 it's a moral judgment on you,
01:07:03.480 but you've now surrounded yourself
01:07:05.100 in a hall of likeness,
01:07:07.080 then you're oblivious
01:07:07.960 to how you're engaging
01:07:08.660 with the world
01:07:09.360 and the manner
01:07:10.220 in which you're doing so.
01:07:11.720 And you're helpless
01:07:12.520 against even the own self-
01:07:14.720 pledges of self-control
01:07:16.240 that you made to yourself
01:07:17.740 in your engagement
01:07:18.560 with the world
01:07:19.200 while you're simultaneously
01:07:20.640 lecturing about ethics
01:07:21.960 and Christ around the world.
01:07:23.420 And I thought,
01:07:24.000 that's wrong.
01:07:26.180 And when I try to-
01:07:27.180 Suboptimal, at least.
01:07:28.360 Suboptimal.
01:07:29.240 Yes.
01:07:29.840 Well, right,
01:07:30.660 because there's a lot
01:07:31.260 you do right all the time.
01:07:33.260 And it's like we,
01:07:35.360 I don't like complimenting you
01:07:36.780 in public.
01:07:38.280 I know, it's very annoying.
01:07:39.480 There's like at some point
01:07:41.280 what you have been through
01:07:43.640 in certain ways
01:07:44.580 in facing the absolute worst elements
01:07:47.980 of the far left.
01:07:49.420 And by that,
01:07:49.920 I don't mean liberals
01:07:50.720 and I don't mean Democrats
01:07:51.900 and I don't mean moderates
01:07:53.040 has been harrowingly horrible.
01:07:57.040 It's been,
01:07:57.420 it's like if it's being,
01:07:59.360 it's a horror movie
01:08:00.160 as written by Kafka.
01:08:01.440 It's been awful.
01:08:02.580 And a large part of why
01:08:04.260 I've been able to be undeceived
01:08:06.280 about the problems
01:08:07.340 that are happening on my side
01:08:08.600 is in large part
01:08:09.620 because of the closeness
01:08:10.340 of my relationship with you
01:08:11.800 because I saw it in ways
01:08:13.100 that were undeniable.
01:08:14.080 And you and I are too close
01:08:15.400 for me to dismiss you
01:08:16.620 if you say something 0.99
01:08:17.940 that I believe is dumb, 0.99
01:08:19.420 if you say something 0.99
01:08:20.040 that is misinterpreted,
01:08:22.420 if you say something
01:08:23.240 in a way that doesn't make sense
01:08:25.120 and we might have to argue
01:08:25.840 about for two weeks
01:08:26.700 to see where it comes down to.
01:08:28.400 I can't dismiss you for it.
01:08:31.720 And so part of it
01:08:32.660 is I took that ride early.
01:08:33.900 You're like,
01:08:34.140 oh, you're almost like
01:08:34.640 the original cancel culture icon.
01:08:37.340 Lucky you.
01:08:38.840 Right?
01:08:39.640 It's been a pleasure.
01:08:40.860 But you've been battered
01:08:41.940 and you've dealt with a lot of it
01:08:43.480 way better than anybody
01:08:44.520 thinks or knows
01:08:45.320 in the mainstream media
01:08:46.340 and on the left.
01:08:47.460 Now that said,
01:08:48.500 you also asked for a lot
01:08:50.180 because by dint of the fact
01:08:51.720 that you're an ascendant character
01:08:53.180 who has a religious aspect
01:08:55.360 of some people,
01:08:56.060 has a moral aspect
01:08:56.920 and has a professorial
01:08:58.400 and professional aspect.
01:09:00.940 And so it's important to say
01:09:02.420 that while we're talking about this,
01:09:03.960 this isn't like me coming in 0.67
01:09:05.400 and beating you like a piñata
01:09:06.720 that you need to be perfect,
01:09:07.820 but it's saying
01:09:08.460 with everything that you are
01:09:10.320 and with the capacity
01:09:11.440 that you have
01:09:12.280 to speak in a transcendent way
01:09:14.220 to more people,
01:09:15.180 you have a moral responsibility
01:09:16.600 to take more care
01:09:18.000 with your words
01:09:18.940 so that you're not
01:09:20.020 thoughtlessly denigrating
01:09:21.540 whole swaths of people
01:09:22.900 who need to
01:09:23.720 at least hear from you
01:09:25.960 or hear a perspective
01:09:26.940 that you have to offer
01:09:27.840 that's immensely helpful.
01:09:29.540 The same way that I say
01:09:30.720 with a lot of moderate Democrats
01:09:32.140 who I think are incredible
01:09:33.640 moral people,
01:09:34.840 the failure to wrangle
01:09:35.960 proper messaging apparatuses,
01:09:38.140 it can be a moral failure also.
01:09:39.740 So one of the problems
01:09:40.800 that I have
01:09:41.960 is trying,
01:09:43.720 while trying to establish
01:09:44.660 a balanced view,
01:09:45.680 I have a two-dimensional problem,
01:09:47.740 I would say,
01:09:48.220 is first of all,
01:09:49.740 as an academic,
01:09:51.260 the people who are troublesome
01:09:54.520 on the professional front,
01:09:56.860 to me,
01:09:57.180 are not the radical right
01:09:58.980 because the radical left
01:10:01.260 is destroying
01:10:02.140 the educational system
01:10:03.340 and the radical right
01:10:04.240 isn't there at all.
01:10:06.340 So that puts me
01:10:07.740 in a particularly weird position
01:10:09.260 professionally
01:10:09.920 and it's a unidimensional position.
01:10:12.280 But then I would also say
01:10:13.640 that the people
01:10:14.880 who have come after me
01:10:16.040 most effectively
01:10:17.540 and most continuously,
01:10:19.020 although there's been
01:10:19.540 some of that on the right,
01:10:20.920 that's never really
01:10:21.580 been very effective,
01:10:23.060 it's all been from the left.
01:10:26.260 That's right.
01:10:26.460 And so I know as well
01:10:28.440 that there's a moral hazard
01:10:30.700 in that,
01:10:31.300 in that it's not as easy
01:10:32.840 for me to be balanced
01:10:34.040 in my view.
01:10:34.900 And then there's one other
01:10:35.840 dimension to that too,
01:10:36.960 is that I don't see
01:10:38.440 the radical left
01:10:39.320 as penitent
01:10:40.460 in any real sense.
01:10:41.980 And this actually extends out
01:10:43.280 into the liberal community
01:10:44.320 more broadly
01:10:45.000 because in many ways
01:10:47.080 the entire world
01:10:48.200 has decided
01:10:48.880 that the Nazis were,
01:10:50.600 that was just
01:10:51.440 not acceptable.
01:10:53.940 But we have not decided
01:10:55.460 that about the communists.
01:10:57.300 And so we still have places
01:10:58.640 in the United States
01:10:59.360 where there's statues to Lenin
01:11:00.620 and people still wear
01:11:01.600 Che Guevara shirts
01:11:03.420 and trumpet their alliance
01:11:04.980 with even the communist ideals,
01:11:07.080 not working class
01:11:08.400 labor socialism.
01:11:09.840 And so there's a lack
01:11:10.540 of penitence on the left
01:11:11.780 that really,
01:11:12.500 that really disturbs me.
01:11:15.200 And so I have the nexus
01:11:16.720 of those three things.
01:11:17.540 So that's the left's issue
01:11:18.800 with the confederate flag.
01:11:21.200 I'm not advocating this,
01:11:22.500 so I don't want to say
01:11:23.140 that these things are the same.
01:11:24.240 They're not the same.
01:11:25.480 But there's a lot of ways
01:11:26.440 that the imagery of symbols
01:11:27.860 move both ways,
01:11:28.660 but it is not
01:11:29.340 the ascendant thing
01:11:30.440 in academia.
01:11:30.520 But Jesus, on the one hand,
01:11:30.820 it's confederates 200 years ago.
01:11:32.640 On the other hand,
01:11:33.240 it's like the 100 million people
01:11:34.880 that were dead
01:11:35.440 because of communism
01:11:36.420 not even 40 years ago.
01:11:38.120 Well, 100 years ago,
01:11:38.700 but it's America's original sin.
01:11:40.840 But there's definitely,
01:11:42.100 I mean,
01:11:42.640 the trucker protest
01:11:43.380 was a great example
01:11:44.420 where there was
01:11:45.480 one confederate flag
01:11:46.560 at the trucker protest.
01:11:47.540 Yeah, yeah, yeah.
01:11:47.980 The media talked about it
01:11:48.800 for months.
01:11:49.540 We can't completely talk about it.
01:11:51.040 There were communist flags
01:11:51.700 at the trucker protest,
01:11:52.780 every single one.
01:11:54.240 And no one noticed.
01:11:55.660 No one says anything.
01:11:56.560 Look, oh, here's the hammer
01:11:58.180 and the circle.
01:11:58.720 And part of it is like
01:11:59.820 Canada is different.
01:12:01.300 And that's also one of the things
01:12:02.280 we talk about all the time
01:12:03.340 is it's like Canada
01:12:04.160 has different ascendant forces
01:12:05.560 that are problematic.
01:12:06.660 And I'm not comparing it.
01:12:08.080 That was what made it
01:12:08.980 even worse in Canada.
01:12:10.200 It's like,
01:12:10.800 well, even if it was
01:12:11.460 a confederate flag,
01:12:12.760 that's actually not
01:12:13.500 a Canadian issue.
01:12:14.800 So not in any fundamental sense.
01:12:16.780 And I don't see any sign
01:12:19.240 on the left of penitence.
01:12:21.340 Jesus, it took the social psychologist
01:12:23.080 70 years to admit
01:12:25.640 that there was such a thing
01:12:26.960 as left-wing totalitarianism.
01:12:28.340 I know, I know.
01:12:28.660 And still,
01:12:29.200 it's a narrow part of the field.
01:12:31.160 I get it.
01:12:31.380 It's like, oops,
01:12:31.980 well, maybe it's there too.
01:12:33.220 Yeah.
01:12:33.640 You think, really.
01:12:35.400 You think.
01:12:36.220 And it's part and parcel
01:12:37.660 of the problem of the left.
01:12:39.600 And it's in the universities.
01:12:41.260 They won't draw boundaries.
01:12:42.420 And it's where,
01:12:44.560 yes,
01:12:45.340 but in different ways
01:12:46.200 the right won't either.
01:12:48.440 Yeah,
01:12:48.780 but they drew a boundary
01:12:49.740 between them and the Nazis.
01:12:51.960 And the left has not
01:12:53.080 drawn a boundary
01:12:54.120 between them and the communists.
01:12:55.300 That's true.
01:12:55.400 And I know it's harder too.
01:12:56.720 I understand that it's harder.
01:12:59.040 I don't think it is.
01:13:00.560 I do think it is.
01:13:01.640 I think it's harder
01:13:02.540 because the thing
01:13:03.620 about the communists
01:13:04.500 is that they promised
01:13:05.880 universal benevolence.
01:13:07.620 And the Nazis never did. 0.77
01:13:10.380 No, they said,
01:13:10.920 no, this is for the areas.
01:13:12.360 For us.
01:13:12.560 Right?
01:13:13.060 And so there's a transcendent
01:13:15.060 promise in communism
01:13:16.260 that's not there
01:13:17.180 on the Nazi front.
01:13:18.040 But that's just liberal conservative.
01:13:18.820 Conservatives come in the front door.
01:13:20.900 We talked about this last night.
01:13:22.360 Like,
01:13:22.920 the conservative gone wrong
01:13:24.880 when they're of the right
01:13:25.840 is a big guy with a club
01:13:27.640 who comes in
01:13:28.180 and smashes stuff.
01:13:29.220 And it's like,
01:13:29.620 it's definable.
01:13:30.480 You know what it is.
01:13:31.760 Liberals,
01:13:32.200 when it goes wrong,
01:13:32.860 is like a swarm
01:13:33.700 of paper-cutting mosquitoes
01:13:35.000 that, like,
01:13:35.660 shred you to death. 0.99
01:13:36.920 And those are the two 0.94
01:13:37.600 variants.
01:13:38.080 And if you're one,
01:13:38.880 one kind of makes sense.
01:13:40.160 And if you're of a mob
01:13:41.700 of paper-cut,
01:13:42.980 shredding mosquitoes,
01:13:44.620 they think that's
01:13:45.760 their only chance
01:13:46.420 and justification
01:13:46.900 to go up against
01:13:47.540 the other one.
01:13:48.380 And of course,
01:13:48.800 we don't want
01:13:49.120 either of those things.
01:13:50.280 And so,
01:13:50.800 of course,
01:13:51.140 it devolved that way.
01:13:52.280 But it doesn't matter
01:13:52.980 that if they're promising
01:13:53.880 universal benevolence,
01:13:55.080 if that's not what's happening,
01:13:56.080 it doesn't matter.
01:13:56.940 It doesn't make it harder.
01:13:58.220 We also have to understand,
01:13:59.820 too,
01:13:59.980 that whatever's
01:14:00.720 bedeviling our country,
01:14:02.500 our civilization,
01:14:04.840 if we reduce it
01:14:05.920 to the partisan,
01:14:07.200 then we let it win.
01:14:08.320 Because this network
01:14:09.780 of ideas
01:14:10.360 that's tearing us apart
01:14:11.580 has its tendrils
01:14:14.000 up everywhere.
01:14:15.540 And if we can say,
01:14:16.360 well,
01:14:16.500 it's only on the left,
01:14:17.620 then,
01:14:18.280 well,
01:14:18.480 then it wins.
01:14:19.280 Because it can hide in that.
01:14:21.140 And if we say,
01:14:21.520 it's only on the right,
01:14:22.360 it wins as well.
01:14:23.200 And when you are off
01:14:24.560 what I think of
01:14:25.660 as your calling,
01:14:27.460 you're not being
01:14:28.560 transformative.
01:14:30.800 And what you're being
01:14:31.500 is all of a sudden
01:14:32.120 you're like feeding
01:14:32.980 these kind of
01:14:34.420 red,
01:14:35.420 right,
01:14:36.180 walking,
01:14:36.740 talking points,
01:14:38.020 moving out in language
01:14:39.100 that doesn't sound like you,
01:14:40.600 and denigrating
01:14:41.420 the opposition
01:14:42.200 in a way
01:14:42.780 that I think
01:14:43.820 is bully-like.
01:14:44.800 It makes you seem
01:14:45.380 mean and small
01:14:46.220 and petty 1.00
01:14:46.640 and bully-like.
01:14:47.880 And also,
01:14:49.020 That's the problem
01:14:49.700 with going after
01:14:50.360 a single individual,
01:14:51.440 too.
01:14:51.520 And we'll get to that
01:14:52.120 with what the conservative
01:14:52.620 trend talked about.
01:14:53.480 Right.
01:14:53.820 Because all these
01:14:54.800 have different things
01:14:55.840 that I had very different
01:14:56.960 reactions to all three of them.
01:14:58.600 But also what it does
01:14:59.840 is that
01:15:00.720 it eliminates
01:15:02.260 your ability
01:15:03.060 to differentiate
01:15:03.880 the other side.
01:15:04.940 And so when you start
01:15:05.660 ranting about the Marxist,
01:15:07.060 the Marxist social,
01:15:09.740 like,
01:15:10.180 it's a rant
01:15:10.820 and it's not you.
01:15:11.760 It's like,
01:15:12.080 it's captured language
01:15:13.080 when you're,
01:15:13.580 and it's like,
01:15:14.080 okay,
01:15:14.600 sure,
01:15:14.940 I can do an equal rant
01:15:16.220 about the worst aspect
01:15:17.520 of the furthest right
01:15:18.540 and how they're racist.
01:15:20.300 It doesn't have any bearing
01:15:21.080 on the conservatives
01:15:21.700 in my community,
01:15:22.780 my friends who were
01:15:23.560 in the military,
01:15:24.900 my friends who were
01:15:25.500 born-again Christians.
01:15:26.820 I mean,
01:15:27.060 I can keep ranting
01:15:27.980 a whole list
01:15:28.600 of the worst of the right,
01:15:30.280 but it's making them
01:15:31.120 a monolith.
01:15:31.900 And you pull the individual
01:15:33.680 into a monolithic thing
01:15:35.300 and you don't differentiate them.
01:15:37.040 And you don't want people
01:15:37.900 doing that with you
01:15:38.700 and we don't want people
01:15:39.620 doing that with you
01:15:40.420 because we need you
01:15:41.280 to discern them.
01:15:42.420 Yeah, okay,
01:15:42.920 so you're called out,
01:15:43.960 you're called out
01:15:44.820 in the dream
01:15:45.480 by my hillbilly self
01:15:47.200 for your moral failings,
01:15:48.620 but you don't take
01:15:49.520 that personally
01:15:50.180 and then...
01:15:51.200 I feel it
01:15:52.020 and then I go,
01:15:52.900 uh-uh,
01:15:53.000 it's you.
01:15:54.240 I'm not taking you personally
01:15:55.540 and then that's really sad
01:15:56.880 for me.
01:15:57.340 Okay,
01:15:57.580 so then there's
01:15:58.140 the next part of the dream
01:15:59.240 which is...
01:15:59.400 The next part of the dream
01:16:00.140 is you're going off
01:16:01.380 with your licentious 1.00
01:16:02.420 hillbilly orgy 1.00
01:16:03.300 and people are like 0.93
01:16:03.900 pairing off
01:16:04.360 and going to rooms
01:16:05.120 and I get offered
01:16:06.360 like a hillbilly woman 1.00
01:16:08.140 and I had...
01:16:09.240 It was amazing.
01:16:10.620 So,
01:16:11.200 and I had this moment,
01:16:12.240 like a first reaction
01:16:13.240 where I'm like,
01:16:13.940 I'm married,
01:16:14.620 I don't cheat on my wife,
01:16:15.760 I'm not going to go
01:16:16.380 to a back room
01:16:16.960 with a hillbilly
01:16:17.440 but then I did have
01:16:18.660 a second thought
01:16:19.300 where I was like,
01:16:20.100 also the hillbilly women
01:16:21.160 are not very attractive.
01:16:22.460 So,
01:16:22.740 I'm like,
01:16:23.040 I was slightly relieved
01:16:24.120 and slightly terrifying.
01:16:25.600 So,
01:16:25.780 like it wasn't as purely
01:16:27.420 an act of virtue
01:16:28.480 as possible
01:16:29.200 but nonetheless,
01:16:30.580 I was like,
01:16:31.200 no,
01:16:31.540 it was clear morally
01:16:32.380 and it also was clear
01:16:33.460 that it was other
01:16:35.000 in a way that was scary
01:16:36.520 would be the non-funny part
01:16:37.920 to say it.
01:16:38.680 Like,
01:16:39.080 I don't want to tingle in that.
01:16:40.100 So,
01:16:40.280 you weren't going to mate
01:16:41.020 with what was incestuous.
01:16:42.640 That's right.
01:16:43.460 Yeah.
01:16:43.740 And there was...
01:16:44.260 It felt like...
01:16:44.760 It felt like a kind of motif
01:16:45.400 of creative union
01:16:46.660 so that you were offered
01:16:48.980 the temptation
01:16:49.760 of creative union
01:16:50.660 with what was too close
01:16:52.020 an incestuous bond
01:16:53.440 and you said no.
01:16:55.780 Yes.
01:16:56.200 Right.
01:16:56.520 That's too far.
01:16:57.360 That's a line drawn.
01:16:58.240 And as I'm here
01:16:58.720 in this amazing company
01:17:00.760 that I've been in
01:17:01.380 for the last week.
01:17:02.180 Like,
01:17:02.460 that's interesting.
01:17:03.380 Right.
01:17:03.660 Well,
01:17:03.880 because you were concerned
01:17:04.640 about coming down here
01:17:05.620 because,
01:17:06.220 well,
01:17:06.400 this is part and parcel
01:17:08.200 at least in some sense
01:17:09.620 of the Daily Wire operation.
01:17:10.800 Go ahead.
01:17:11.000 You also,
01:17:11.500 I think you forgot to mention
01:17:12.780 that the dream,
01:17:14.260 in the dream,
01:17:15.080 the place where you were...
01:17:15.980 Oh,
01:17:16.060 we're getting there.
01:17:16.600 Yeah.
01:17:16.880 Okay,
01:17:17.140 sorry.
01:17:17.280 So,
01:17:17.560 that's okay.
01:17:18.500 But yeah,
01:17:19.000 I'm glad you're on that.
01:17:20.300 So,
01:17:20.720 then I'm in a house
01:17:21.780 that is,
01:17:22.780 it's a bear house
01:17:23.780 and the closest thing
01:17:24.640 that it could remind me of
01:17:25.740 was,
01:17:26.620 you know,
01:17:26.940 I went to Albania
01:17:28.000 at one point
01:17:28.560 and there's these mansions
01:17:29.540 that were built
01:17:30.080 by like Russian oligarchs
01:17:31.440 to escape
01:17:31.940 and then they ran out of money
01:17:33.000 and there are these
01:17:33.800 big platform,
01:17:35.400 concrete,
01:17:36.380 like,
01:17:36.860 shells of mansions
01:17:38.780 but they're never,
01:17:40.120 they're never given life
01:17:41.360 and it's very,
01:17:42.400 it's got that Eastern European
01:17:43.520 like graveyard
01:17:44.700 of something
01:17:45.480 that would be grand
01:17:46.440 from,
01:17:47.020 like,
01:17:47.560 you know.
01:17:48.320 The ruins of the Tower of Babel.
01:17:49.780 Well,
01:17:49.960 and also like,
01:17:50.600 they're weirdly bureaucrat.
01:17:51.940 They're trying to be majestic
01:17:52.920 but they also could be like
01:17:54.140 the central bureaucrat
01:17:55.320 for ducting,
01:17:56.200 right?
01:17:56.400 Like,
01:17:56.540 they have this weird like,
01:17:58.620 anyways,
01:17:59.180 and so it's a house like that
01:18:00.540 and it's on till
01:18:01.320 and it's concrete
01:18:02.160 and there's water
01:18:03.000 that's flooding
01:18:03.740 up the bottom of the house
01:18:05.060 and everyone's going off 0.99
01:18:06.480 to have sex 0.98
01:18:07.140 in the various rooms 0.98
01:18:08.020 that are also cabins
01:18:09.000 on a ship
01:18:09.540 and the ship's grounded.
01:18:10.240 Okay,
01:18:10.260 so that's also
01:18:10.840 extremely relevant,
01:18:11.940 right?
01:18:12.140 Because that's a,
01:18:12.820 that's an image
01:18:13.380 of a decayed civilization
01:18:14.780 is the house is collapsing,
01:18:16.220 the waters are rising
01:18:17.080 and in response,
01:18:19.100 everyone's going off
01:18:20.160 to their own rooms 1.00
01:18:20.820 to have sex 1.00
01:18:21.540 with incestuous partners 0.98
01:18:22.820 and that's the polarization,
01:18:24.540 right?
01:18:24.820 So it's a great image
01:18:26.340 and another indication.
01:18:27.500 Or as we call that,
01:18:28.420 Monday night.
01:18:29.180 Yeah.
01:18:29.640 No,
01:18:29.820 I'm just kidding.
01:18:31.040 Yes,
01:18:31.580 exactly.
01:18:32.340 And then,
01:18:33.840 and then I'm also aware
01:18:34.740 that it's a grounded arc
01:18:36.480 because it's on tilt,
01:18:38.020 like when a boat comes up.
01:18:39.220 Yeah.
01:18:39.600 I always think about
01:18:40.220 like the image
01:18:40.780 when Beowulf's boat
01:18:43.280 comes back,
01:18:44.100 right?
01:18:44.360 And it's the big,
01:18:45.260 it comes in crooked
01:18:46.300 and so I'm aware of that.
01:18:48.040 So then there's,
01:18:49.040 it's a bit of a blur.
01:18:49.700 Okay,
01:18:49.900 so it's on a tilt
01:18:50.780 because,
01:18:51.660 aha,
01:18:52.060 it's on a tilt
01:18:52.780 because it's crooked.
01:18:54.220 So the house is crooked,
01:18:55.500 the house is falling,
01:18:56.520 the house is filling
01:18:57.120 with water.
01:18:57.520 And it's an arc.
01:18:57.900 It's like,
01:18:58.560 this arc ain't going to rise.
01:19:00.100 Right.
01:19:00.620 Right.
01:19:00.920 We need arcs to rise
01:19:01.920 generally when there's a flood.
01:19:03.280 Yeah.
01:19:03.680 This one's not rising
01:19:04.640 because all you people
01:19:05.540 are off having hillbilly sacks.
01:19:07.220 Hey,
01:19:07.420 I'm not in the dream.
01:19:08.300 Wait a minute.
01:19:10.480 Hajo's getting pulled in.
01:19:11.740 By the way,
01:19:12.480 this is the next icon carving
01:19:14.140 that we need.
01:19:15.120 Yeah.
01:19:15.740 Yeah,
01:19:16.060 it'll be like your
01:19:16.780 Hieronymus Bosch painting
01:19:18.060 will be like the hillbilly 0.54
01:19:19.380 arc orgy. 0.86
01:19:21.620 Out in the margins. 0.98
01:19:22.600 Yeah,
01:19:22.800 yeah,
01:19:22.960 yeah.
01:19:23.380 Okay,
01:19:23.760 okay,
01:19:24.080 so then basically then you're-
01:19:25.480 It's a state of our civilization.
01:19:27.120 Yeah,
01:19:27.440 it's dismal.
01:19:28.880 It's dismal.
01:19:29.920 Then you come after me
01:19:31.600 and you're yelling after me.
01:19:34.220 It's more deprecations.
01:19:36.300 And it's basically like
01:19:37.120 you should doubt yourself.
01:19:38.700 Like you don't belong.
01:19:39.980 So you're kind of standing in
01:19:41.360 for the left in that sense
01:19:43.480 and in the Twitter persona
01:19:45.660 that I've been adopting,
01:19:48.780 let's say at least in those tweets
01:19:50.020 and others as well.
01:19:51.300 And at first I had,
01:19:52.480 like I said,
01:19:53.040 it's important.
01:19:53.420 And I had a moment of like,
01:19:54.820 ugh,
01:19:55.400 like I don't,
01:19:55.920 like taking a criticism,
01:19:57.000 we take criticisms from each other.
01:20:00.420 They're always with a baseline
01:20:02.400 of respect and admiration.
01:20:04.580 And usually the harsher they are,
01:20:06.140 the more it comes from there,
01:20:07.140 first of all.
01:20:07.980 But so I took it like that first
01:20:10.040 and then I was like,
01:20:10.660 this is wrong
01:20:11.340 and I'm leaving
01:20:12.020 and you're wrong
01:20:13.680 and this whole scene's wrong.
01:20:14.800 I was confident in that.
01:20:16.080 But you weren't
01:20:17.000 and that was weird
01:20:17.780 because I was leaving
01:20:18.700 and generally we don't,
01:20:20.040 that's not a place we wind up.
01:20:21.760 So then I wind away
01:20:23.000 and outside
01:20:23.940 it was sort of an idyllic setting
01:20:25.540 and then Tammy was there.
01:20:28.660 And Tammy said to me,
01:20:30.620 and Tammy and I,
01:20:31.440 it's kind of interesting
01:20:32.120 because Tammy and I are like-
01:20:33.140 Tammy's my wife
01:20:33.660 for those of you listening
01:20:34.620 who might not know that.
01:20:35.840 And Greg and Tammy
01:20:37.020 know each other very well
01:20:38.060 and have for decades.
01:20:39.400 And Tammy's been
01:20:41.420 in the conversations
01:20:42.460 in many times
01:20:43.300 when we've been
01:20:44.140 mutually working out
01:20:45.420 familial problems
01:20:46.520 of different intensity
01:20:47.880 and personal problems
01:20:48.880 and all of that.
01:20:49.500 And I don't know
01:20:50.620 exactly what image
01:20:52.140 Tammy plays for you. 1.00
01:20:54.360 I know that
01:20:54.960 when you were first
01:20:56.480 thinking about
01:20:57.040 getting married to Delina,
01:20:58.560 Tammy definitely
01:20:59.320 pushed on you
01:21:00.180 and said,
01:21:01.360 and if I remember correctly,
01:21:02.900 and said,
01:21:03.480 this is like,
01:21:04.480 get at it.
01:21:05.220 There are her wits.
01:21:06.040 Yeah, and Tammy waits 1.00
01:21:07.520 and she's all quiet
01:21:08.440 and you're like,
01:21:09.000 oh, what a meek, 0.60
01:21:09.940 submissive, kind woman. 0.80
01:21:11.440 And then she just like 1.00
01:21:12.160 lops your legs off 0.99
01:21:13.220 with a machete 0.99
01:21:13.900 that's like completely deserved.
01:21:16.320 And she had some great comments.
01:21:18.060 So she's a good feminine judge. 1.00
01:21:19.940 Well, she's also embodied,
01:21:21.480 she's the embodied feminine 1.00
01:21:22.980 in that.
01:21:25.400 You said that a while ago.
01:21:27.160 You said,
01:21:27.460 Tammy's so feminine, right? 0.98
01:21:28.960 It took me a long time
01:21:29.800 because my wife is too 1.00
01:21:31.560 and that had very different meaning
01:21:33.200 than how I was raised.
01:21:34.840 But she's powerful 0.99
01:21:35.840 from her femininity in full.
01:21:38.820 And so when she says stuff,
01:21:40.180 and Tammy and I also have
01:21:41.500 an affectionate
01:21:43.000 and fun and joking relationship.
01:21:44.460 It's not like it's always serious.
01:21:45.460 But when Tammy pokes you. 0.95
01:21:46.700 She actually likes you.
01:21:47.300 Yeah, which is...
01:21:49.020 But if she pokes you,
01:21:51.400 it's worth paying attention to.
01:21:52.920 And she... 1.00
01:21:53.980 Look, she's put up with him 1.00
01:21:55.400 for how long, right?
01:21:56.300 So there's...
01:21:57.180 50 years.
01:21:58.080 Yeah.
01:21:58.640 Is it really?
01:21:59.460 50.
01:22:00.180 Yeah, I've known her
01:22:00.940 since she was 8.
01:22:01.500 Oh, that's right.
01:22:02.260 50 years.
01:22:03.020 So anyway,
01:22:03.440 and Tammy's had... 0.99
01:22:05.000 Tammy had me
01:22:05.720 in one of her dreams...
01:22:06.480 Tammy and I are like
01:22:07.160 dream allies sometimes
01:22:08.700 in a way that's kind of weird.
01:22:10.840 And so Tammy was there
01:22:12.360 and she said to me...
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01:23:25.680 Don't worry.
01:23:27.020 She said,
01:23:27.700 in our next book,
01:23:29.040 it was another
01:23:29.540 12 Rules for Life book,
01:23:30.640 we're writing
01:23:31.320 and devoting a chapter to you.
01:23:33.520 I was like,
01:23:34.280 that's really weird,
01:23:35.640 right?
01:23:36.000 Because,
01:23:36.940 you know,
01:23:38.040 Hillbilly Jordan
01:23:38.960 who just like
01:23:39.680 was hurling,
01:23:41.440 you know,
01:23:42.220 gnawed corn cobs
01:23:43.280 at me at my way
01:23:44.020 out of the crooked ark
01:23:45.140 didn't seem to
01:23:45.960 incline to want to
01:23:47.320 venerate me.
01:23:48.700 But it was,
01:23:49.440 she was clear
01:23:50.020 that that was something
01:23:50.680 that was happening
01:23:51.120 and then she said,
01:23:51.980 you are,
01:23:53.220 basically,
01:23:53.760 you're the moon god.
01:23:56.080 And I,
01:23:56.720 and my first reaction,
01:23:57.660 I had an immediate
01:23:58.480 and rare initial reaction
01:24:00.960 of humility
01:24:01.540 that was genuine
01:24:02.440 where I was like,
01:24:03.240 I'm not a god.
01:24:04.100 Like,
01:24:04.360 even in the dream.
01:24:05.920 And,
01:24:06.260 and I said,
01:24:08.300 what you mean is
01:24:09.140 I'm godlike
01:24:09.960 in the way
01:24:10.380 that the moon is.
01:24:11.320 And she said,
01:24:11.960 yes,
01:24:12.940 your job is to shine
01:24:14.160 light on the waters.
01:24:15.560 Now,
01:24:16.020 Parju,
01:24:16.320 you had some things
01:24:17.100 to say about that.
01:24:18.920 Well,
01:24:19.060 there's a few things
01:24:20.140 that I would,
01:24:20.800 I would have to say.
01:24:21.820 First off,
01:24:22.940 I think,
01:24:24.780 I'm realizing
01:24:25.360 how much this dream
01:24:26.340 is probably a reflection
01:24:27.580 of a lot of the reactions
01:24:29.120 that I've also had
01:24:30.380 from people
01:24:31.100 from all sides,
01:24:31.980 different conservatives,
01:24:32.640 different,
01:24:33.600 is the sense
01:24:35.100 in which people
01:24:35.940 felt like
01:24:36.960 we are in a,
01:24:37.500 we're in a,
01:24:38.480 in a moment of crisis
01:24:39.640 and they felt like
01:24:41.420 one of the things
01:24:41.940 you've been able to do
01:24:43.040 is to start
01:24:45.320 building an arc.
01:24:46.740 Right?
01:24:47.340 To start build something
01:24:48.700 which would not
01:24:49.700 be completely given
01:24:51.000 into the forces
01:24:52.000 of,
01:24:52.380 of,
01:24:52.680 of the destabilization
01:24:53.840 and chaos
01:24:54.400 that are happening
01:24:55.480 and could maybe
01:24:56.560 kind of gather us together
01:24:58.040 and carry us through
01:24:59.360 towards something better.
01:25:01.160 and so the fact
01:25:02.400 that you have this flood,
01:25:03.920 we felt the flood coming
01:25:05.160 and that's something
01:25:05.640 I think everybody
01:25:06.280 kind of feels
01:25:06.960 the flood waters rising
01:25:08.220 and so the fact
01:25:09.460 that you see
01:25:10.220 that this arc
01:25:11.780 now
01:25:12.360 isn't going to fly anymore.
01:25:14.280 Right?
01:25:14.840 And that,
01:25:15.260 that,
01:25:15.460 Yeah,
01:25:15.580 it's got this oligarch
01:25:16.780 bureaucracy element
01:25:18.540 that's tilted
01:25:19.280 and,
01:25:20.120 yeah,
01:25:20.380 and it's incomplete
01:25:21.300 and unfinished
01:25:22.060 and so it's contaminated
01:25:23.400 by bureaucratic power
01:25:24.780 and,
01:25:25.120 and then,
01:25:25.640 Which is also,
01:25:26.480 which is also,
01:25:27.240 the idea of the bureaucracy
01:25:28.320 is also something
01:25:29.700 that is like,
01:25:30.360 say a right-wing monster, 0.58
01:25:32.040 right?
01:25:32.240 Something that is
01:25:32.980 structured
01:25:33.680 and,
01:25:34.380 and,
01:25:34.720 and hierarchical
01:25:36.320 but it's not working.
01:25:37.580 It's like this,
01:25:38.020 this,
01:25:38.120 And it's dead.
01:25:38.900 It's a void of beauty
01:25:39.980 that the liberals
01:25:41.020 often have a claim on.
01:25:43.880 Yeah,
01:25:44.100 yeah,
01:25:44.340 yeah.
01:25:44.780 The,
01:25:44.840 the,
01:25:45.220 the conservatives
01:25:45.920 have a claim
01:25:46.640 on the theoretical
01:25:47.720 and abstract notion
01:25:49.300 of beauty
01:25:49.800 and creating the conditions
01:25:50.960 under which beauty
01:25:51.700 can flourish
01:25:52.420 but generally
01:25:53.120 the liberals
01:25:53.640 are the ones
01:25:54.420 who create the beauty.
01:25:55.640 Is that fair?
01:25:56.400 Yeah,
01:25:56.760 very often,
01:25:57.600 yes.
01:25:57.740 Okay.
01:25:57.880 And so,
01:25:58.640 and so then,
01:25:59.540 so then you move out
01:26:00.500 and I think
01:26:01.820 what's basically happening
01:26:02.960 is that he's confirmed.
01:26:03.580 But it's,
01:26:04.060 it's,
01:26:04.360 it's not exactly fair
01:26:05.420 as we were talking
01:26:06.100 about earlier
01:26:06.600 is that
01:26:07.060 without that liberal
01:26:08.440 openness
01:26:09.080 you can't get access
01:26:10.560 to that transcendent realm
01:26:11.880 from which beauty comes
01:26:12.960 but we,
01:26:13.680 as we discussed earlier,
01:26:14.960 the great artists
01:26:15.680 are actually a union
01:26:16.880 between the liberal
01:26:17.780 and the conservatives
01:26:18.260 because
01:26:18.720 Yeah,
01:26:18.740 it's like what's Michelangelo?
01:26:19.620 They have that,
01:26:20.400 they have that openness
01:26:21.480 but they ally it
01:26:22.340 with discipline.
01:26:23.220 That's right.
01:26:23.480 And so then
01:26:24.180 the proper place
01:26:25.420 of beauty
01:26:25.820 is proper,
01:26:26.700 is that place
01:26:27.860 you are at
01:26:28.400 at the beginning
01:26:29.260 of the dream
01:26:29.940 which is that
01:26:30.560 idyllic balance
01:26:31.600 of conservative limit
01:26:33.160 lowercase c
01:26:34.300 in the humanities
01:26:35.140 and monastic tradition.
01:26:37.240 Right,
01:26:37.480 for reasons
01:26:38.100 that we can discuss
01:26:39.440 at a separate time
01:26:40.360 because I think
01:26:40.840 that the liberal arts
01:26:41.680 education foundationally,
01:26:43.200 we're talking about
01:26:43.680 this last night,
01:26:44.860 is the,
01:26:45.400 is the,
01:26:46.020 is the only solution
01:26:47.940 for the insanity
01:26:49.080 of Twitter.
01:26:49.880 And openness per se
01:26:51.100 which is the liberal
01:26:51.980 temperamental virtue
01:26:52.960 isn't sufficient
01:26:53.660 to produce
01:26:54.100 creative achievement.
01:26:55.080 It has to be allied
01:26:55.820 with action in the world.
01:26:56.740 But just like
01:26:56.960 I'm high conscientious,
01:26:58.400 which helps a ton,
01:27:00.520 you're way higher openness
01:27:01.940 than you've been acting.
01:27:03.520 And so part of that
01:27:04.160 I think is like
01:27:04.780 you almost,
01:27:05.440 first of all,
01:27:05.980 you died twice. 0.79
01:27:07.500 Like you were put
01:27:08.140 in a coma
01:27:08.580 and like,
01:27:09.720 it's like we're running
01:27:10.600 out of Eastern European
01:27:11.600 countries for you
01:27:12.660 to go 1.00
01:27:13.100 die in. 1.00
01:27:14.680 Die in. 1.00
01:27:15.480 Right. 0.60
01:27:15.920 So,
01:27:16.720 I mean,
01:27:17.120 and it,
01:27:17.380 Ha, 0.98
01:27:17.600 f***ing ha. 0.98
01:27:18.740 Yeah, 0.97
01:27:19.280 it was,
01:27:20.240 right,
01:27:20.960 right.
01:27:21.580 And it was
01:27:22.260 a horrible run
01:27:23.920 and Tammy,
01:27:24.960 I mean,
01:27:25.640 it was awful.
01:27:27.160 Yeah.
01:27:27.560 What happened.
01:27:28.180 And so there's reason
01:27:29.060 for you to come out now
01:27:30.440 and be
01:27:31.720 unwilling,
01:27:34.580 or not willing,
01:27:35.780 incapable of seeing
01:27:36.880 like a newfound
01:27:38.060 level of vulnerability.
01:27:39.060 It's like you hatched
01:27:40.120 through healing crisis
01:27:40.900 and you have a baby skin on
01:27:42.360 and you're tucking
01:27:43.380 into the comforts
01:27:44.100 of one side
01:27:44.860 more,
01:27:45.360 let's say.
01:27:46.180 Like where you're
01:27:46.880 being greeted
01:27:47.480 and accepted.
01:27:47.960 Yeah,
01:27:48.100 well,
01:27:48.240 it's a risk.
01:27:49.020 I mean,
01:27:49.320 when I've gone to
01:27:50.340 Washington to talk
01:27:51.240 to some of the people
01:27:51.900 there,
01:27:52.680 starting to talk
01:27:53.500 more to Republicans
01:27:54.320 because I've actually
01:27:55.240 talked more to Democrats
01:27:56.280 in the last five years
01:27:57.260 than Republicans,
01:27:58.700 even the Republicans
01:27:59.700 I'm talking to
01:28:00.640 say,
01:28:01.720 don't get co-opted
01:28:04.180 by the Republicans
01:28:04.980 because then you're
01:28:06.300 just another Republican
01:28:07.220 and it's not like
01:28:08.500 they're a dime a dozen
01:28:09.320 and we need great
01:28:10.120 Republican leaders
01:28:10.960 but that's not
01:28:12.520 whatever I'm doing,
01:28:14.260 whatever that might be,
01:28:15.500 is just going to be
01:28:16.160 a reduction of that.
01:28:17.120 But it's also tempting
01:28:19.060 because,
01:28:19.920 well,
01:28:20.120 one of the things
01:28:20.660 I have noticed
01:28:21.400 is that when I'm
01:28:22.040 talking to conservative
01:28:23.160 types,
01:28:24.240 I have to tread
01:28:25.280 much less carefully
01:28:26.640 which is weird,
01:28:27.560 right?
01:28:27.800 Because the liberals
01:28:28.520 hypothetically are
01:28:29.360 the open types
01:28:30.060 but when I'm talking
01:28:31.320 to Democrats,
01:28:32.180 I almost always feel
01:28:33.260 and so do they
01:28:34.400 that we're both
01:28:35.380 walking through
01:28:35.980 a moral minefield
01:28:36.900 all the time
01:28:37.800 and it's exhausting.
01:28:38.940 It is exhausting
01:28:39.940 in a particular way
01:28:41.160 though don't
01:28:42.420 underestimate
01:28:43.040 the extent
01:28:44.500 of openness
01:28:46.120 and minefield
01:28:47.300 walking
01:28:47.800 for me
01:28:48.920 in my life
01:28:50.320 to be able
01:28:51.020 to get to a point
01:28:51.880 that I'm surrounded
01:28:52.700 with people
01:28:53.280 in a whole weekend.
01:28:55.120 I'm not talking
01:28:55.560 about my community.
01:28:56.120 My community
01:28:56.620 and family
01:28:57.160 conservative and liberal
01:28:57.940 were squared.
01:28:58.760 It's not relevant
01:28:59.600 but in a public way
01:29:00.780 of new voices
01:29:01.920 for me to get
01:29:03.400 to a table
01:29:03.920 with like James Orr
01:29:05.060 and Douglas Headley
01:29:05.920 and Stephen Blackwood,
01:29:08.660 that's not,
01:29:09.280 that's not,
01:29:09.780 you don't just roll
01:29:10.520 into conservative town
01:29:11.700 and get greeted
01:29:12.200 with that.
01:29:12.760 There's a lot of
01:29:13.560 coming from where
01:29:15.120 though?
01:29:15.560 Is it the conservatives
01:29:16.300 who are coming
01:29:16.800 after you for that
01:29:17.500 or the liberals?
01:29:19.100 Yeah.
01:29:19.520 Are you more afraid
01:29:20.700 of the liberals
01:29:21.240 that they're going
01:29:21.880 to judge you
01:29:22.400 for talking
01:29:23.080 to conservatives?
01:29:24.960 Both ways.
01:29:25.820 Both ways.
01:29:26.500 The worst I've gotten,
01:29:27.500 the worst anti-Semitism
01:29:28.660 and deprecation
01:29:29.920 and dehumanization
01:29:30.660 has been from the right
01:29:32.220 when I've appeared
01:29:32.920 with you
01:29:33.220 and with you.
01:29:33.500 Right.
01:29:34.060 Yeah, there's no doubt.
01:29:34.940 Well, and I should say too
01:29:36.000 I went and talked to you.
01:29:37.000 But the left is no joke
01:29:37.100 and so for me
01:29:37.800 it's like I take arrows
01:29:39.220 in the back
01:29:39.760 coming to the conversation.
01:29:41.300 The conversations
01:29:41.860 sometimes are difficult.
01:29:44.140 And then I take arrows
01:29:45.480 in the back from them
01:29:46.480 sometimes going back
01:29:47.500 taking arrows in the face 0.61
01:29:48.560 as I'm going back.
01:29:49.120 Yeah, yeah.
01:29:49.520 And look, who cares?
01:29:50.660 I'm not saying that
01:29:51.340 Well, you do care.
01:29:52.040 You do care.
01:29:52.600 It's hard on people, man.
01:29:54.280 It's hard.
01:29:54.600 But what I'm saying
01:29:55.240 is like it's not a
01:29:56.500 it's hard to establish
01:29:58.280 a group of competent,
01:29:59.880 intelligent, ethical people
01:30:01.440 who don't think like you.
01:30:02.940 It is hard
01:30:03.780 but it's still contingent
01:30:04.920 on you to do.
01:30:06.360 Yeah.
01:30:06.500 And it might be hard
01:30:07.860 in certain ways
01:30:08.580 that are specific to liberals
01:30:09.820 which I get
01:30:10.500 because I see that
01:30:11.280 all the time.
01:30:12.260 But there's also
01:30:12.900 different ways
01:30:13.480 that it's hard
01:30:13.940 with conservatives.
01:30:14.820 Yeah, well the problem too
01:30:15.820 is you get tired.
01:30:17.220 Yes.
01:30:17.340 It's like one of the reasons
01:30:18.220 I think that it's been
01:30:19.240 it's a relief to me
01:30:20.940 to talk to people
01:30:22.440 when it's not a minefield
01:30:25.240 with every bloody word.
01:30:26.520 Right. 0.84
01:30:26.920 Because it's just
01:30:27.680 it takes so much effort
01:30:29.500 to negotiate that.
01:30:31.100 And I know that that's
01:30:32.100 I know that it still
01:30:33.200 has to be negotiated
01:30:34.100 because the alternative
01:30:34.920 is conflict
01:30:35.660 and war.
01:30:36.620 So but
01:30:37.600 but the temptation
01:30:38.800 is there, right?
01:30:39.940 There's minefields
01:30:41.020 a lot though
01:30:41.780 like
01:30:42.180 I could hit
01:30:43.840 a lot of notes
01:30:44.800 wrong
01:30:45.320 with this group
01:30:46.940 not now with
01:30:47.780 like you and I
01:30:48.480 have a relationship
01:30:49.120 now that's
01:30:50.060 like we understand
01:30:51.360 it and it's not
01:30:52.580 and Blackwood too
01:30:54.360 and or too, right?
01:30:55.540 But there's
01:30:56.020 I could hit a note wrong
01:30:57.500 and find myself
01:30:59.300 Yeah.
01:31:00.940 In a bunch of
01:31:02.300 where you
01:31:04.300 Yeah, well you can tell
01:31:04.900 that happens
01:31:05.440 because it immediately
01:31:06.200 descends into the political.
01:31:07.840 That's right.
01:31:08.340 Right.
01:31:08.560 And then all of a sudden
01:31:09.320 I'm talking to somebody
01:31:11.000 who I have great regard for
01:31:12.520 and I'm like
01:31:13.140 oh this is dead language
01:31:14.260 coming at me now.
01:31:14.840 Yeah, that's those dead branches
01:31:16.340 that cast a long shadow.
01:31:17.880 Yeah.
01:31:18.220 Yeah.
01:31:18.380 So that's
01:31:18.860 it's hard all the way around.
01:31:21.040 You've had a uniquely hard
01:31:22.400 uniquely
01:31:23.580 you've had a very difficult run
01:31:25.340 in ways that are unique to you
01:31:26.800 that I'm not trying
01:31:27.700 to draw comparisons to.
01:31:29.660 Well there's a moral hazard
01:31:30.580 in that
01:31:31.000 because it's hard
01:31:31.920 to keep equanimity
01:31:33.460 in the face of that.
01:31:34.480 That's right.
01:31:34.860 Especially when it doesn't quit.
01:31:36.000 It doesn't stop.
01:31:36.660 That's right.
01:31:37.280 And so what's hard is then
01:31:38.360 I have ten lawsuits
01:31:39.520 against me right now
01:31:40.500 on this front.
01:31:40.940 I know, I know.
01:31:41.020 That's like tens a lot.
01:31:42.540 It is.
01:31:43.220 And when it's
01:31:43.880 when you're in the jaws
01:31:46.100 of
01:31:46.700 of a kind of
01:31:48.760 Kafka-esque 0.91
01:31:49.820 crushing 0.77
01:31:50.700 of your
01:31:51.640 like the bureaucratic state
01:31:53.480 having you in its teeth
01:31:54.820 with this power
01:31:55.540 of the state behind it
01:31:56.580 is dizzying
01:31:57.620 and terrifying
01:31:58.340 and resentment inducing
01:31:59.880 and outraging.
01:32:00.900 Yes.
01:32:01.360 But.
01:32:01.840 Yes, and it evokes
01:32:02.660 like a murderous
01:32:03.640 fantasy as a response.
01:32:05.920 It's like keep it up guys
01:32:07.740 and see what happens.
01:32:09.260 So here's the transcendent.
01:32:10.140 That's not good.
01:32:10.840 So here's what you keep
01:32:11.920 tacking to
01:32:12.860 and imperfectly is fine
01:32:15.140 and that's what we're
01:32:15.680 talking about.
01:32:16.660 But what you're tacking to
01:32:17.720 is if you're traveling
01:32:18.740 around literally the world
01:32:20.200 to talk about Jesus
01:32:21.320 and to talk about
01:32:22.160 the rules for governing
01:32:23.040 one's life
01:32:23.720 and navigating complex change
01:32:25.360 then you should be
01:32:26.820 I believe
01:32:28.380 more open
01:32:29.480 to hearing
01:32:30.700 when there are things
01:32:31.620 to me
01:32:31.940 that are obvious
01:32:32.700 missteps.
01:32:34.340 I should be as open
01:32:35.320 as possible.
01:32:35.920 Well obviously
01:32:36.500 that's also why
01:32:38.200 we're having the conversation.
01:32:39.240 to adjust to it
01:32:40.240 and that requires humility
01:32:41.820 and part of what was hard
01:32:43.040 for me with the pride
01:32:43.920 comment you made
01:32:44.700 for Elliot Page
01:32:46.380 was it was like
01:32:47.260 you're humble
01:32:48.220 in all the ways
01:32:48.900 that matter to me
01:32:49.760 but like
01:32:50.360 you have pride.
01:32:52.700 It's like that's
01:32:53.220 like call Elliot Page 0.99
01:32:54.820 dumb 0.98
01:32:55.240 is a more suitable 1.00
01:32:56.100 insult from you.
01:32:57.240 It's like
01:32:57.460 you don't want to run around
01:32:58.100 accusing people of pride.
01:32:59.880 That's
01:33:00.020 Well it depends
01:33:00.560 on whether they
01:33:01.100 parade themselves
01:33:01.700 on the cover
01:33:02.320 of a fashion magazine
01:33:03.320 or not.
01:33:03.960 Well you've paraded
01:33:04.820 yourself around plenty
01:33:05.880 too.
01:33:06.320 Yeah but it wasn't
01:33:07.040 to entice
01:33:07.780 adolescent girls
01:33:08.740 to sterilize themselves.
01:33:10.180 Well and is that
01:33:11.000 the question is
01:33:11.700 is that in fact
01:33:12.360 what she was doing
01:33:13.160 but nonetheless
01:33:13.780 Well that is the bloody question.
01:33:16.080 Would she be down the cover
01:33:16.580 if that wouldn't have happened?
01:33:18.480 Okay.
01:33:19.060 And then she got
01:33:19.780 1.6 million
01:33:21.060 Instagram likes
01:33:22.120 and so I can't
01:33:23.260 and maybe
01:33:23.600 let's talk about that
01:33:25.100 seriously.
01:33:25.920 It's like okay
01:33:26.480 I cannot believe
01:33:30.320 as a clinician
01:33:32.040 and as a
01:33:33.240 psychological observer
01:33:34.620 that one of the
01:33:36.560 consequences
01:33:37.160 of that parading
01:33:38.160 wasn't
01:33:39.140 that at least
01:33:40.140 one young woman
01:33:41.440 decided to
01:33:42.220 sterilize herself. 0.88
01:33:43.640 Now I think
01:33:44.660 it was likely
01:33:45.340 a lot more than one
01:33:46.520 but
01:33:47.460 I
01:33:48.740 I can't be certain
01:33:50.600 that it was even one.
01:33:52.120 but it's
01:33:52.960 1.6 million likes
01:33:54.320 and we know
01:33:55.260 that the
01:33:55.840 incidence of
01:33:57.220 gender dysphoria
01:33:58.180 on the
01:33:59.160 young adolescent
01:33:59.980 woman front 1.00
01:34:00.580 has exploded
01:34:01.380 and I knew
01:34:02.320 perfectly well
01:34:03.460 when all this
01:34:04.160 pronoun nonsense
01:34:05.300 emerged in Canada
01:34:06.600 that that was
01:34:07.180 what was going to happen
01:34:08.080 because I knew
01:34:08.900 the literature
01:34:09.380 on psychogenic epidemics
01:34:10.880 and I can't see
01:34:12.500 that Elliot Page
01:34:13.980 didn't flip the switch
01:34:15.780 from victim
01:34:16.540 to perpetrator
01:34:17.480 with that act.
01:34:19.080 And then
01:34:19.380 Stephen Blackwood
01:34:20.540 one of the conservative
01:34:21.440 guys that we've been
01:34:22.220 talking about
01:34:22.860 President of Ralston
01:34:24.140 he called me on that
01:34:25.180 like you did
01:34:25.800 in some sense
01:34:26.440 the other night
01:34:26.960 he said
01:34:27.340 you bullied her 0.99
01:34:28.600 you shouldn't have
01:34:29.720 gone after her
01:34:30.600 that's a disproportionate
01:34:32.400 use of force
01:34:33.240 and I thought
01:34:34.020 that was a good argument
01:34:35.020 I thought that was
01:34:35.860 a good argument
01:34:36.500 it's like
01:34:36.900 I want to arrive at this
01:34:38.100 after the swimsuit
01:34:39.100 yeah well we should
01:34:39.860 finish the dream too
01:34:40.840 so
01:34:41.100 okay
01:34:41.440 just
01:34:41.680 okay so back to
01:34:42.800 the moon image
01:34:43.560 so Jonathan
01:34:44.400 you had a comment
01:34:45.140 about that
01:34:45.620 did you mention
01:34:46.520 the moon
01:34:47.060 I don't think
01:34:47.440 yeah
01:34:47.800 so I think
01:34:50.080 it's important
01:34:50.480 to understand
01:34:51.220 in a way
01:34:51.800 the way that I see it
01:34:53.520 is that
01:34:54.120 you feel like
01:34:56.280 in the dream
01:34:56.800 you were confirmed
01:34:57.760 to be what you are
01:34:59.540 yeah
01:34:59.940 which is
01:35:00.700 let's say
01:35:01.680 something which is
01:35:02.900 on the left
01:35:03.360 the moon
01:35:03.800 in terms of thinking
01:35:05.080 is definitely
01:35:06.660 the left side
01:35:08.040 even in iconography
01:35:09.000 the sun will always be
01:35:10.600 say on the right hand
01:35:11.480 of Christ
01:35:11.840 and the moon
01:35:12.240 will be on the left
01:35:12.900 the sun is the
01:35:13.660 is kind of like
01:35:14.540 the origin
01:35:15.040 and the moon
01:35:15.740 is the reflection
01:35:17.480 but the moon
01:35:18.060 is also that
01:35:18.780 which changes
01:35:19.900 the moon
01:35:20.900 is change
01:35:21.740 the moon
01:35:22.120 is waxing
01:35:22.880 and waning
01:35:23.300 the moon
01:35:23.720 is the feminine
01:35:24.360 that's right
01:35:24.780 and so that's why
01:35:25.480 it's feminine 0.95
01:35:25.920 that's why
01:35:26.640 it has to do
01:35:27.580 with fluidity
01:35:28.340 and change
01:35:29.100 and transformation
01:35:29.780 so it's completely
01:35:30.920 and Tammy is saying
01:35:31.800 you're a valid voice
01:35:32.680 for that
01:35:33.080 and that's
01:35:34.040 that's a great
01:35:35.160 that's a great thing
01:35:36.040 to have happen
01:35:36.580 at the end of that dream
01:35:37.620 because you're called out
01:35:38.960 by the loudest voice
01:35:42.120 of the hillbilly right
01:35:43.080 that's the way
01:35:43.820 the dream lays itself out
01:35:45.000 and then
01:35:45.440 it's my wife
01:35:46.680 me being the loudest voice
01:35:49.000 of the hillbilly right
01:35:49.800 in your dream
01:35:50.500 and God only knows
01:35:51.540 to what degree
01:35:52.080 that's true
01:35:52.580 period
01:35:52.960 it's my wife
01:35:54.240 who says
01:35:54.640 no
01:35:54.940 you're shining
01:35:56.180 the proper light
01:35:57.480 and it's a transcendent light
01:35:59.040 right
01:35:59.220 because that's a very weird
01:36:00.220 part of the dream
01:36:00.820 that you're allied
01:36:01.760 in some sense
01:36:02.360 with the moon god
01:36:03.320 so what
01:36:03.960 the god part of that
01:36:04.940 is the transcendent part
01:36:06.000 it's the part
01:36:06.480 that sheds light
01:36:07.120 sheds light from above
01:36:08.560 and you're shedding light
01:36:09.400 on the water
01:36:09.900 and I think
01:36:10.780 I do think
01:36:11.600 that's what you're doing
01:36:12.400 and I think
01:36:12.860 you're doing it
01:36:13.340 extremely well
01:36:14.060 I mean you're very judicious
01:36:16.120 and careful
01:36:16.780 in your articulation
01:36:18.620 of the positions
01:36:19.460 of the left
01:36:20.100 you know
01:36:20.720 and you don't get
01:36:21.380 ranty about it
01:36:23.040 pretty much never
01:36:24.460 and you
01:36:25.560 you don't get prideful
01:36:27.700 about it too
01:36:28.180 and I think
01:36:28.620 that's partly
01:36:29.120 because it's been
01:36:29.740 so bloody difficult
01:36:30.500 and because you actually
01:36:31.340 didn't want to do it
01:36:32.280 yeah
01:36:32.720 and I think
01:36:33.400 the whole
01:36:33.740 and it's good
01:36:35.040 that Tammy
01:36:35.480 validates that
01:36:36.360 it's amazing
01:36:36.920 I'm so glad
01:36:37.820 that I have
01:36:38.260 such a self-congratulatory dream
01:36:39.960 like this worked out
01:36:40.860 very well for me
01:36:41.640 because if we did
01:36:42.500 the one that shows
01:36:43.260 that I'm like
01:36:44.000 impotent and crippled 0.98
01:36:45.500 that like
01:36:45.920 and we did that one
01:36:46.860 no no
01:36:47.520 but it is something
01:36:49.000 to really take heart from
01:36:50.080 because the dream
01:36:50.880 the dream is very
01:36:52.680 positively inclined
01:36:53.940 towards what you're doing
01:36:55.040 and it's not
01:36:55.980 that it gets there easily
01:36:57.280 right
01:36:57.560 it goes through
01:36:58.080 the whole
01:36:58.560 deadwood
01:36:59.460 corruption
01:37:00.400 of western civilization
01:37:01.760 incestuous hillbilly
01:37:03.440 the thing I'll say
01:37:04.220 is that in the dream
01:37:05.340 when I was joking
01:37:06.080 saying I had
01:37:07.060 like a rare
01:37:08.580 but immediate
01:37:09.040 moment of humility
01:37:09.860 I was positioned
01:37:11.140 in the dream
01:37:12.000 with humility
01:37:12.760 and it's like
01:37:13.420 it's not
01:37:13.900 that's useful
01:37:17.080 because the feeling
01:37:17.820 tone of the dream
01:37:18.880 like you know
01:37:19.480 you have dreams
01:37:20.000 where you're like
01:37:20.440 a conquering hero
01:37:21.320 because if you
01:37:22.160 if in the dream
01:37:23.480 you would have
01:37:24.020 elevated your status
01:37:25.560 to moon god
01:37:26.920 let's say
01:37:27.440 by a narcissistic acceptance
01:37:29.040 you can be
01:37:30.000 absolutely bloody sure
01:37:31.340 that would have been
01:37:32.180 accompanied by
01:37:33.220 catastrophe
01:37:33.780 because pride
01:37:34.700 goes before a fall
01:37:35.900 that's right
01:37:36.740 and we talked about
01:37:37.560 the great
01:37:38.160 Denzel Washington line
01:37:39.420 to Will Smith
01:37:40.640 that I think about
01:37:41.540 a lot with
01:37:42.460 you
01:37:43.520 where he said
01:37:44.120 like right when
01:37:44.880 you're at your greatest
01:37:45.920 like the devil
01:37:46.620 comes for you
01:37:47.240 right
01:37:47.360 right
01:37:47.760 and so I've been
01:37:48.260 thinking about that
01:37:48.920 a lot
01:37:49.300 and thinking
01:37:49.660 part of our
01:37:50.140 conversation
01:37:50.700 now with your
01:37:52.340 transformation 0.99
01:37:52.960 through literal death
01:37:54.360 it's like
01:37:55.560 where are you
01:37:56.040 going to be now
01:37:56.680 and part of me
01:37:57.360 is like
01:37:57.860 Henry IV's over
01:37:59.380 like it's time
01:38:00.240 for Henry V
01:38:00.780 right
01:38:02.000 some of those
01:38:02.660 things have to be
01:38:03.360 left behind
01:38:04.060 in certain ways
01:38:05.540 some of the
01:38:06.100 roughnesses of you
01:38:07.060 yeah
01:38:07.440 well maybe
01:38:08.020 Twitter is one of them
01:38:09.060 you know
01:38:09.380 because
01:38:09.680 and it's very
01:38:11.040 convenient for me
01:38:12.080 so my response
01:38:13.180 to the Twitter ban
01:38:14.080 wasn't of moral outrage
01:38:15.760 in fact it was
01:38:16.560 first of all
01:38:17.520 of stunned amusement
01:38:18.980 that it happened
01:38:20.240 to happen
01:38:20.640 the same day
01:38:21.400 that I announced
01:38:22.240 my partnership
01:38:23.720 with Daily Wire
01:38:24.560 I just couldn't believe
01:38:25.380 that was so 0.99
01:38:26.140 utterly ridiculous 0.91
01:38:27.320 because one of the 0.86
01:38:28.580 reasons I felt
01:38:29.760 that
01:38:30.060 and we negotiated
01:38:31.000 with Daily Wire
01:38:31.700 for four months
01:38:32.400 and my family
01:38:33.020 and I hashed
01:38:33.820 that out
01:38:34.320 because we did
01:38:35.100 not do this
01:38:35.840 lightly
01:38:36.120 and we paid
01:38:36.680 attention to
01:38:37.200 every single
01:38:38.220 word in the
01:38:38.880 contract
01:38:39.340 and so we were
01:38:40.360 on board
01:38:40.840 with it
01:38:41.260 and
01:38:41.800 but one of the
01:38:43.100 reasons for that
01:38:43.720 was well
01:38:44.400 you know
01:38:45.120 I might run afoul
01:38:46.100 of one of these
01:38:46.660 major social media
01:38:47.640 networks
01:38:48.120 and then
01:38:48.560 well then what
01:38:49.400 then what happens
01:38:50.100 if YouTube stops me
01:38:51.140 now we have
01:38:51.800 backups and all that
01:38:52.720 but you get the
01:38:53.320 point
01:38:53.580 and then it was
01:38:54.400 so propitious
01:38:55.240 insanely propitious
01:38:56.900 that the same day
01:38:57.820 I set this up
01:38:58.820 Twitter said
01:38:59.400 well you don't
01:39:00.120 get to talk
01:39:00.620 to people anymore
01:39:01.400 it's propitious
01:39:02.240 it's Jungian
01:39:03.440 synchronicity
01:39:04.220 for me
01:39:04.740 this one is
01:39:05.320 are we done
01:39:05.860 enough of the
01:39:06.840 light on the
01:39:07.420 I think it's fine
01:39:08.100 I think the dream
01:39:08.820 is pretty clear
01:39:10.640 I think that anybody
01:39:11.440 who can think
01:39:13.560 you can understand
01:39:14.580 that it is
01:39:15.320 in some ways
01:39:15.920 a reflection
01:39:16.380 of your reaction
01:39:17.220 to some of the
01:39:18.660 things that Jordan
01:39:19.080 has said
01:39:19.500 and also the idea
01:39:20.280 that I think
01:39:20.900 you always view
01:39:21.960 Jordan as an ally
01:39:23.160 in a way that
01:39:24.280 you tried to navigate
01:39:25.280 between both sides
01:39:26.240 constantly
01:39:26.760 to be careful
01:39:27.880 and that you've
01:39:29.060 always seen that
01:39:29.720 Jordan has been
01:39:30.560 that for you
01:39:31.240 you've had to
01:39:31.760 defend him
01:39:32.440 many times
01:39:33.460 to the left
01:39:34.220 because you felt
01:39:35.380 like you could
01:39:35.780 trust him
01:39:36.220 he had your back
01:39:36.940 you're both able
01:39:38.220 to talk across
01:39:39.060 the lines
01:39:39.400 and now you're
01:39:39.960 like oh wait
01:39:40.360 this isn't
01:39:42.000 happening anymore
01:39:42.660 like wait
01:39:43.020 this is breaking
01:39:43.700 down
01:39:44.000 there's a threat
01:39:44.280 to it
01:39:44.660 yeah there's a
01:39:45.800 threat
01:39:45.960 he is moving
01:39:46.560 too much
01:39:47.160 into this side
01:39:48.620 and so then
01:39:50.020 you are being
01:39:50.520 kind of affirmed
01:39:51.800 as it's like
01:39:52.960 it's okay for me
01:39:53.780 to be on the left
01:39:54.660 even if I'm noticing
01:39:55.900 Jordan going there
01:39:57.280 it's like okay
01:39:57.840 no I can't let
01:39:58.660 myself get pulled
01:39:59.700 there
01:39:59.940 I have to be able
01:40:01.220 to pull out
01:40:01.700 that's smart
01:40:02.100 and it's like
01:40:02.680 don't do a bunch
01:40:03.700 of stuff
01:40:04.380 that affirms
01:40:06.360 in its minutia
01:40:07.960 not as a totality
01:40:09.260 people's criticism
01:40:10.520 that you're like 1.00
01:40:11.420 a dumb person's idea 1.00
01:40:14.000 of a smart person 1.00
01:40:14.780 yeah
01:40:15.020 it's not true 1.00
01:40:15.960 it's stupid 1.00
01:40:16.600 well actually 1.00
01:40:17.320 I don't mind that
01:40:18.120 so much in some sense
01:40:19.220 because
01:40:19.500 right
01:40:19.760 there's a positive side
01:40:21.060 yeah what I mean is
01:40:21.960 and this has to do
01:40:22.880 with your role
01:40:23.920 and for me
01:40:24.760 it's like
01:40:25.140 in your area
01:40:25.880 of expertise
01:40:26.480 like it kind of
01:40:27.460 boils down to
01:40:28.000 what we're talking
01:40:28.460 about with the
01:40:28.860 Supreme Court
01:40:29.280 justices
01:40:29.760 so I don't get
01:40:30.800 to say offhand
01:40:31.780 things even if
01:40:32.620 I'm irritated
01:40:33.120 on Twitter
01:40:34.280 something like that
01:40:35.040 well that could be
01:40:35.820 right
01:40:36.160 maybe nobody
01:40:36.860 but Jordan
01:40:37.300 like the thing
01:40:38.280 is so think
01:40:38.920 I mean the image
01:40:39.760 that I have
01:40:40.340 in my mind
01:40:40.960 is let's say
01:40:41.960 from the outset
01:40:42.580 you said something
01:40:43.200 like we're going
01:40:43.740 to create a new
01:40:44.500 university
01:40:45.120 we're going to
01:40:46.020 create something
01:40:46.720 and then everybody
01:40:47.480 was excited
01:40:48.140 and so now
01:40:48.600 here comes
01:40:49.000 Peterson Academy
01:40:49.780 we're like this
01:40:50.840 is possible
01:40:51.500 Jordan's going
01:40:52.240 to be able
01:40:52.420 to pull the
01:40:53.000 best people
01:40:54.000 from everywhere
01:40:54.680 and going
01:40:55.920 to be able
01:40:56.560 to create
01:40:57.520 a university
01:40:58.500 where people
01:40:59.140 are able
01:40:59.540 to say
01:41:00.040 the truth
01:41:00.540 and talk
01:41:01.280 across lines
01:41:01.920 and everybody's
01:41:02.340 excited
01:41:02.780 and it's like
01:41:04.160 I am a
01:41:04.740 conservative guy
01:41:05.600 I'm a right
01:41:06.200 wing guy
01:41:06.680 but I'm like
01:41:07.600 I feel
01:41:08.260 Peterson Academy
01:41:09.040 is way more
01:41:09.720 important than
01:41:10.440 like these
01:41:12.120 kinds of
01:41:13.080 partisan
01:41:13.560 let's say
01:41:14.080 more partisan
01:41:14.740 things
01:41:15.540 even though
01:41:16.160 I know
01:41:16.700 that I am
01:41:17.260 clearly on one
01:41:18.900 side
01:41:19.180 so it's like
01:41:19.900 that's what
01:41:20.220 I mean
01:41:20.520 when I said
01:41:21.020 at the
01:41:21.320 beginning
01:41:21.600 that this
01:41:22.640 seems to
01:41:23.120 have something
01:41:23.560 to do
01:41:23.880 with your
01:41:24.460 role
01:41:24.940 what do you
01:41:26.820 think about
01:41:28.220 Dave Rubin
01:41:29.060 was talking
01:41:29.520 to us
01:41:29.840 the other
01:41:30.080 night
01:41:30.260 and he
01:41:30.740 went after
01:41:31.180 Greg
01:41:31.440 pretty nicely
01:41:32.380 in a very
01:41:33.180 friendly way
01:41:33.800 but Rubin
01:41:34.980 who is more
01:41:36.240 partisan
01:41:36.620 and more
01:41:37.140 provocative
01:41:37.600 and plays
01:41:38.360 that role
01:41:38.900 like Shapiro
01:41:39.620 does for
01:41:40.100 example
01:41:40.500 although
01:41:41.720 they both
01:41:42.880 play more
01:41:43.260 than that
01:41:43.600 role
01:41:43.740 but they
01:41:44.040 certainly
01:41:44.260 play that
01:41:44.660 role
01:41:44.860 Rubin's
01:41:45.700 objection
01:41:46.160 to Greg's
01:41:46.840 criticism
01:41:47.260 was that
01:41:47.840 well there
01:41:48.640 is a time
01:41:49.200 and a place
01:41:49.620 to be
01:41:50.620 caustic
01:41:51.460 and to be
01:41:51.900 critical
01:41:52.260 and to
01:41:52.680 draw
01:41:53.020 distinct
01:41:53.580 lines
01:41:53.920 and he
01:41:54.460 didn't
01:41:54.800 particularly
01:41:55.280 feel sorry
01:41:55.960 for the
01:41:56.520 swimsuit
01:41:56.980 model
01:41:57.240 who we
01:41:57.560 haven't talked
01:41:57.980 about that
01:41:58.380 much yet
01:41:58.800 or for
01:41:59.740 Elliot Page
01:42:00.460 because he
01:42:01.320 felt that
01:42:01.900 it was the
01:42:02.800 right time
01:42:03.960 and place
01:42:04.460 to point
01:42:05.880 out that
01:42:06.460 that wasn't
01:42:07.180 appropriate
01:42:07.640 and there's
01:42:08.780 a lot of
01:42:09.120 noise
01:42:09.440 and trouble
01:42:11.180 associated with
01:42:12.260 that but
01:42:12.580 that in
01:42:13.220 itself
01:42:13.680 doesn't mean
01:42:14.200 that it's
01:42:14.520 wrong
01:42:14.900 and Dave's
01:42:15.960 job
01:42:16.480 that he
01:42:18.480 should do
01:42:19.040 being true
01:42:19.560 to himself
01:42:20.180 is to be
01:42:21.020 that advisor
01:42:22.220 and he's
01:42:24.300 like a general
01:42:24.980 he should
01:42:26.100 hold that
01:42:26.600 position for
01:42:27.360 you
01:42:27.560 he should
01:42:27.980 make me
01:42:28.440 earn that
01:42:28.920 at that
01:42:29.300 table
01:42:29.660 that's why
01:42:30.420 he's there
01:42:31.020 right
01:42:31.460 and he
01:42:32.520 should also
01:42:32.960 advise you
01:42:33.660 in that
01:42:34.020 way so
01:42:34.480 that you
01:42:34.780 don't tilt
01:42:35.300 too far
01:42:35.860 and so
01:42:36.580 everything
01:42:36.960 he said
01:42:37.540 everything
01:42:37.860 I was like
01:42:38.180 I actually
01:42:39.120 completely agree
01:42:39.980 with a lot
01:42:41.220 of what he
01:42:41.580 said
01:42:41.900 well that's
01:42:42.640 also why
01:42:43.080 you're willing
01:42:43.480 to use
01:42:43.880 wit and
01:42:44.280 humor too
01:42:44.780 because it's
01:42:45.240 not like
01:42:45.520 you cut that
01:42:46.040 out of your
01:42:46.420 life
01:42:46.800 well and Dave
01:42:47.680 either
01:42:47.920 Dave's stand up
01:42:48.580 yeah yeah
01:42:49.060 exactly
01:42:49.460 so okay
01:42:50.080 so we can
01:42:50.780 figure that
01:42:51.260 out even
01:42:51.720 if we
01:42:52.020 disagree
01:42:52.400 on a bunch
01:42:53.520 of stuff
01:42:54.020 and usually
01:42:55.220 what I tend
01:42:55.700 to disagree
01:42:56.160 with on a
01:42:56.600 bunch of
01:42:56.880 stuff by the
01:42:57.600 way is what
01:42:57.980 people say
01:42:58.420 on Twitter
01:42:58.820 more than
01:42:59.280 who they
01:42:59.560 are
01:42:59.940 which is
01:43:00.820 also worth
01:43:01.400 saying
01:43:01.720 because it's
01:43:02.240 like really
01:43:02.760 and but
01:43:04.840 look so Dave's
01:43:05.560 doing what he
01:43:06.180 should do
01:43:06.660 which is say
01:43:07.160 to you
01:43:07.640 like think
01:43:08.340 about all
01:43:08.700 this stuff
01:43:09.140 but I see
01:43:09.860 you as
01:43:10.180 having a
01:43:10.700 different
01:43:10.960 role
01:43:11.380 and it's
01:43:11.840 precisely
01:43:12.260 what Jonathan
01:43:13.100 is saying
01:43:13.740 how do you
01:43:15.640 embody the
01:43:17.040 positive role
01:43:17.920 this is a
01:43:19.000 wheat chaff
01:43:19.640 issue
01:43:20.000 right so
01:43:20.400 you're saying
01:43:20.800 well it's
01:43:21.200 really good
01:43:21.560 to offer
01:43:21.920 the wheat
01:43:22.400 and that's
01:43:23.040 the best
01:43:23.480 thing
01:43:23.860 but then
01:43:24.460 you think
01:43:24.780 well yeah
01:43:25.140 but you
01:43:25.440 have to
01:43:25.740 kind of
01:43:25.980 point out
01:43:26.340 where the
01:43:26.640 chaff
01:43:26.960 is too
01:43:27.500 but your
01:43:28.380 feeling is
01:43:29.560 that it's
01:43:30.360 way more
01:43:30.780 important to
01:43:31.460 say here's
01:43:32.280 the wheat
01:43:32.640 than to
01:43:33.260 denigrate
01:43:33.860 the chaff
01:43:34.440 I do think
01:43:35.220 that
01:43:35.520 but I do
01:43:36.320 think also
01:43:36.940 a lot of
01:43:38.080 the stuff
01:43:38.560 was also
01:43:39.360 about the
01:43:40.160 problem
01:43:40.720 with the
01:43:40.960 particular
01:43:41.360 like I do
01:43:42.080 think that
01:43:42.380 that was
01:43:42.660 part of
01:43:43.000 it
01:43:43.160 especially
01:43:43.680 the swimsuit
01:43:44.160 model issue
01:43:44.880 where it's
01:43:45.380 like who's
01:43:45.760 this girl
01:43:46.240 like we
01:43:46.700 don't I
01:43:47.100 don't know
01:43:47.420 who she
01:43:47.720 is and
01:43:48.020 then all of a
01:43:48.360 sudden she
01:43:48.640 becomes the
01:43:49.180 the whirlwind
01:43:50.240 and and like we
01:43:51.440 saw that happen
01:43:52.380 on the other
01:43:53.040 side like think
01:43:53.760 of the Covington
01:43:54.280 kids and that
01:43:54.860 kind of stuff
01:43:55.280 and we're
01:43:55.820 completely outraged
01:43:57.140 as watching the
01:43:58.400 media like destroy
01:43:59.640 this young man
01:44:01.220 and whether it's in a
01:44:03.600 way it doesn't even
01:44:04.040 matter whether it's
01:44:04.880 it's real or
01:44:05.600 unreal or whatever
01:44:06.840 but ultimately
01:44:07.860 when we
01:44:08.840 so there was a
01:44:09.740 feeling of that
01:44:10.980 where it's like this
01:44:11.700 girl like we don't 0.97
01:44:12.440 know who she is
01:44:12.920 and all of a sudden
01:44:13.320 she becomes the
01:44:14.000 yeah I had less
01:44:15.520 sympathy to be honest
01:44:16.420 with the Elliot page
01:44:17.200 because I also think
01:44:18.580 that there was
01:44:19.380 something way more
01:44:20.300 there was something
01:44:21.380 bigger because she
01:44:22.520 is a celebrity
01:44:23.200 and he is a
01:44:24.240 celebrity whatever
01:44:24.700 like Elliot is a
01:44:25.860 celebrity celebrity
01:44:26.820 and there was
01:44:27.640 something more
01:44:28.100 but the swimsuit
01:44:29.120 model thing for me
01:44:29.760 was a little bit
01:44:30.240 like oh okay
01:44:30.760 okay okay
01:44:31.700 so here's the role
01:44:32.600 thing and I think
01:44:33.340 this is what
01:44:34.020 this is where
01:44:34.920 this is my proposition
01:44:36.600 that I want to put
01:44:37.580 forth that I'm
01:44:38.300 fairly confident in
01:44:39.480 but I'm willing to
01:44:40.500 have it like
01:44:41.240 shredded
01:44:42.760 pecked to death 1.00
01:44:43.520 by you 0.99
01:44:44.040 I think that you
01:44:45.680 can have your
01:44:46.560 discerning great
01:44:47.600 father tone
01:44:48.440 you can wear that
01:44:50.420 more in areas
01:44:51.100 where you have
01:44:51.640 expertise
01:44:52.120 when you bring
01:44:53.420 that to
01:44:54.140 black supreme
01:44:55.280 court justice 0.88
01:44:56.080 or Islam 0.63
01:44:57.840 you are out of
01:44:59.120 your lane
01:44:59.620 and your lane
01:45:00.360 there should be
01:45:01.020 as a scientist
01:45:02.600 and a clinician
01:45:03.280 and an interlocutor
01:45:04.860 but if you got
01:45:05.760 so there's one of
01:45:06.420 my favorite Jordan
01:45:07.080 moments was
01:45:07.780 I put him on
01:45:08.520 I always put him
01:45:09.080 on a chain
01:45:09.480 with a bunch of
01:45:10.140 people who are
01:45:11.220 different thinkers
01:45:11.820 and like it almost
01:45:12.840 always ends disastrously
01:45:14.020 no that's not true
01:45:14.740 but it sometimes does
01:45:17.000 but there's one point
01:45:17.860 we're going back and
01:45:18.620 forth
01:45:18.860 who's data
01:45:19.580 and who's data
01:45:20.720 and who's expert
01:45:21.420 there's this like
01:45:21.980 mirror game
01:45:22.760 that everyone plays
01:45:23.580 from both sides
01:45:24.300 well your expert's wrong
01:45:25.360 well your study's wrong
01:45:26.180 well you read the data wrong
01:45:27.300 and it just becomes
01:45:27.980 this exhausting
01:45:28.620 mirrored conversation
01:45:30.220 that Jordan and I
01:45:30.880 are always trying to shatter
01:45:31.720 but at one point
01:45:32.720 Jordan said
01:45:33.200 something about
01:45:33.800 IQ testing
01:45:34.580 and somebody was like
01:45:35.920 well who said that
01:45:37.060 and Jordan was in
01:45:38.480 one of his
01:45:38.940 like you must have
01:45:39.620 been in an airport
01:45:40.280 with Tammy
01:45:40.960 losing your mind
01:45:41.720 because Jordan was like
01:45:42.620 I did
01:45:43.780 I said it
01:45:45.000 I have been studying
01:45:45.920 this field
01:45:46.620 for 35 years
01:45:48.280 I've published
01:45:48.940 200 peer-reviewed things
01:45:50.480 I've like
01:45:51.660 you know
01:45:52.160 I've created
01:45:52.900 an entire company
01:45:53.800 that focuses on the testing
01:45:54.980 I've cut the data
01:45:55.740 every way
01:45:56.380 I've looked at it
01:45:57.080 in any conceivable way
01:45:58.420 and basically
01:45:59.260 it is a topic
01:46:00.620 on which
01:46:01.160 he is legitimately
01:46:03.080 one of the world's
01:46:04.160 leading experts on it
01:46:05.180 and you are angry
01:46:06.240 and it was like
01:46:07.180 man fair enough
01:46:08.160 I don't care what
01:46:08.840 your tone is
01:46:09.540 I don't care that
01:46:10.100 you phrase it
01:46:10.640 you were like
01:46:11.340 dead on
01:46:12.060 and you were
01:46:12.400 aligned
01:46:12.760 this gets us
01:46:13.500 into another problem
01:46:14.480 too
01:46:14.720 which is
01:46:15.140 if we all have
01:46:16.660 to deal with
01:46:17.220 global issues
01:46:17.960 in some sense
01:46:18.740 right
01:46:19.020 especially now
01:46:19.860 because we're
01:46:20.340 increasingly globalized
01:46:21.460 and the globe
01:46:22.020 is tilting
01:46:22.700 in the way
01:46:23.380 that that structure
01:46:24.240 in your dream
01:46:24.900 was tilting
01:46:25.440 but the problem
01:46:26.400 is is that
01:46:26.980 we are all 1.00
01:46:28.480 too ignorant 1.00
01:46:29.180 to do that 1.00
01:46:30.080 and so
01:46:31.020 one of the things
01:46:31.660 I learned
01:46:32.000 when I worked
01:46:32.480 on this UN committee
01:46:33.440 for example
01:46:34.020 which was the committee
01:46:34.860 that produced
01:46:35.380 the report
01:46:35.840 on sustainable
01:46:36.480 development
01:46:37.040 for better
01:46:37.840 or for worse
01:46:38.420 we like to think
01:46:39.300 that it was
01:46:39.660 maybe a better
01:46:40.360 document
01:46:41.280 I mean
01:46:42.340 we the people
01:46:42.980 I worked with
01:46:43.480 in Canada
01:46:43.960 because we were
01:46:45.860 involved
01:46:46.340 but it still
01:46:47.700 tangled
01:46:48.100 it was part
01:46:48.560 of the process
01:46:49.040 that tangled
01:46:49.560 everybody up
01:46:50.240 into this
01:46:50.600 globalist
01:46:51.180 utopian
01:46:51.640 catastrophe
01:46:52.300 that we're
01:46:52.760 in at the
01:46:53.140 moment
01:46:53.400 so
01:46:53.720 in any case
01:46:56.400 one of the
01:46:56.760 things I learned
01:46:57.360 is well
01:46:57.800 no one knows
01:46:58.660 how to do this
01:46:59.440 you know
01:47:00.280 how do we
01:47:00.740 sustainable
01:47:01.920 development
01:47:03.060 it's like
01:47:03.600 well
01:47:04.200 yeah
01:47:05.440 that's a good
01:47:06.320 aim
01:47:06.620 but the devil
01:47:07.540 is definitely
01:47:08.100 in the details
01:47:08.740 and so
01:47:09.200 to even address
01:47:10.960 issues like this
01:47:11.840 you have to
01:47:12.340 risk
01:47:12.860 leaping out
01:47:14.160 of your
01:47:14.480 bailiwick
01:47:14.980 and so
01:47:15.820 there has to
01:47:16.180 be a daring
01:47:16.860 that's associated
01:47:17.660 with that
01:47:18.160 but then
01:47:18.580 the danger
01:47:19.120 is well
01:47:19.620 what do you
01:47:20.420 know enough
01:47:20.960 about the
01:47:21.360 details
01:47:21.800 and the answer
01:47:22.320 is well
01:47:22.760 well so
01:47:23.380 it's easy
01:47:23.800 it's like
01:47:24.300 what's the
01:47:24.700 answer to
01:47:25.100 everything
01:47:25.520 is more
01:47:26.220 responsibility
01:47:26.740 and more
01:47:27.700 humility
01:47:28.100 and so
01:47:28.940 the further
01:47:29.360 you move
01:47:29.900 off your
01:47:30.260 base
01:47:30.520 why isn't
01:47:30.720 it like
01:47:31.060 cocaine and 0.99
01:47:31.680 hookers 1.00
01:47:32.180 because you 0.99
01:47:35.320 decided to
01:47:35.760 become a
01:47:36.080 conservative
01:47:36.540 so I
01:47:37.120 have to talk
01:47:37.460 to you like
01:47:37.840 this
01:47:38.160 oh yeah
01:47:38.500 you want
01:47:39.200 cocaine and 1.00
01:47:39.680 hookers 1.00
01:47:40.080 what is it
01:47:41.120 responsibility
01:47:41.680 and humility
01:47:42.560 right
01:47:43.180 well so
01:47:43.500 the further
01:47:43.980 you are
01:47:44.700 off your
01:47:45.180 base
01:47:45.640 the more
01:47:46.140 you have
01:47:46.380 to be
01:47:46.580 cognizant
01:47:47.060 yeah well
01:47:47.480 and I get
01:47:47.820 a lot of
01:47:48.140 comments like
01:47:48.680 that on
01:47:49.040 twitter
01:47:49.300 you know
01:47:49.680 or on
01:47:50.100 on youtube
01:47:50.600 it's like
01:47:51.120 well now
01:47:51.500 you're an
01:47:51.840 expert in
01:47:52.300 this
01:47:52.600 and now
01:47:52.920 you're an
01:47:53.180 expert in
01:47:53.580 this
01:47:53.800 to me
01:47:54.200 the ultimate
01:47:54.840 one of
01:47:55.440 comments like
01:47:56.200 that
01:47:56.320 it's like
01:47:57.240 islam
01:47:57.760 it's like
01:47:58.060 really
01:47:58.380 that's what
01:47:59.040 you're going
01:47:59.340 to wade
01:47:59.660 into now
01:48:00.340 and not
01:48:00.840 run it
01:48:01.220 by
01:48:01.600 like how
01:48:02.480 many liberals
01:48:03.080 not even
01:48:04.100 liberals 1.00
01:48:04.480 is dumb 1.00
01:48:04.940 because a lot 1.00
01:48:05.740 of the
01:48:06.000 muslims in
01:48:06.940 the world
01:48:07.440 who we
01:48:08.400 need a lot
01:48:09.640 right now
01:48:10.280 are the
01:48:10.760 moderates
01:48:11.460 in the
01:48:12.380 muslim world
01:48:12.920 maybe not
01:48:14.500 even the
01:48:15.520 moderates
01:48:15.900 you need
01:48:16.740 the people
01:48:17.460 who are
01:48:17.760 willing to
01:48:18.300 talk
01:48:18.720 and so
01:48:19.300 one of the
01:48:19.920 guys I
01:48:20.280 talked to
01:48:20.720 was a leader
01:48:22.080 who I'm
01:48:22.760 going to talk
01:48:23.640 to again
01:48:24.060 in the UK
01:48:24.560 in the
01:48:25.000 aftermath
01:48:25.320 of this
01:48:25.780 message
01:48:26.140 by the
01:48:26.500 way
01:48:26.620 so
01:48:27.200 he's
01:48:28.400 a young
01:48:29.260 leader
01:48:29.540 of the
01:48:30.100 more
01:48:30.280 traditional
01:48:30.740 muslims
01:48:31.640 and so 0.51
01:48:32.080 I wouldn't
01:48:33.140 call them
01:48:33.560 moderate
01:48:33.960 but what
01:48:35.200 was so
01:48:35.560 cool
01:48:35.820 because
01:48:36.140 I had
01:48:37.700 we went
01:48:38.560 back and
01:48:38.940 forth a lot
01:48:39.380 before we
01:48:39.980 talked
01:48:40.260 and I
01:48:40.640 didn't talk
01:48:41.220 to him
01:48:41.420 a couple
01:48:41.680 of times
01:48:42.000 because I
01:48:42.300 was sick
01:48:42.740 and then
01:48:43.560 some bullying
01:48:44.740 came out
01:48:45.280 of that
01:48:45.540 directed to
01:48:46.140 me
01:48:46.320 and then
01:48:46.560 I thought
01:48:46.840 well if
01:48:47.160 that's
01:48:47.440 going to
01:48:47.600 be the
01:48:47.880 situation
01:48:48.300 I'm not
01:48:48.680 going to
01:48:48.900 talk
01:48:49.140 at all
01:48:49.420 but then
01:48:49.760 I thought
01:48:50.100 well those
01:48:50.880 are his
01:48:51.140 followers
01:48:51.540 and forget
01:48:52.600 it
01:48:52.760 and then
01:48:53.060 he got
01:48:53.280 in a fight
01:48:53.620 with Douglas
01:48:54.040 Murray
01:48:54.300 which I
01:48:54.660 wasn't
01:48:54.840 very happy
01:48:55.260 about
01:48:55.500 so I
01:48:55.780 thought
01:48:55.980 about
01:48:56.180 scrapping
01:48:56.580 the whole
01:48:56.860 thing
01:48:57.220 and so
01:48:58.120 who wants
01:48:58.420 to get
01:48:58.700 in a fight
01:48:59.120 with Douglas
01:48:59.620 Murray
01:49:00.000 Douglas is
01:49:00.720 the last
01:49:01.400 person
01:49:01.920 I want
01:49:02.500 to get
01:49:02.720 in a fight
01:49:03.020 with
01:49:03.100 it's a bad
01:49:03.360 idea
01:49:03.640 but I did
01:49:05.100 go ahead
01:49:05.540 with the
01:49:05.800 conversation
01:49:06.280 and it
01:49:06.640 was kind
01:49:07.080 of awkward
01:49:07.600 and contentious
01:49:08.280 to begin
01:49:08.700 with
01:49:08.900 but what
01:49:09.700 was so
01:49:10.100 cool
01:49:10.480 the conversation
01:49:12.100 straightened
01:49:12.540 out
01:49:12.640 we had a
01:49:12.980 real
01:49:13.140 conversation
01:49:13.720 but what
01:49:14.100 was so
01:49:14.340 cool
01:49:14.620 was that
01:49:15.080 like a lot
01:49:16.560 of people
01:49:16.960 watched it
01:49:17.580 and most
01:49:18.820 of them
01:49:19.140 were Muslim
01:49:19.660 and a lot
01:49:20.460 of them
01:49:20.720 were traditionalists
01:49:21.600 and all
01:49:22.400 the comments
01:49:23.040 were I'm
01:49:23.800 so glad
01:49:24.320 we're having
01:49:24.720 the conversation
01:49:25.440 and so
01:49:26.080 it's probably
01:49:26.660 not moderates
01:49:27.920 exactly
01:49:28.360 because that
01:49:28.760 implies
01:49:29.540 it's the wrong
01:49:30.420 word
01:49:30.720 let me
01:49:31.080 withdraw the
01:49:31.900 word
01:49:32.140 what I mean
01:49:32.660 is that
01:49:32.980 moderates
01:49:33.480 who have
01:49:33.840 an interest
01:49:34.380 in free
01:49:35.480 ideas
01:49:35.920 and democracy
01:49:36.440 like the
01:49:36.780 most useful
01:49:37.420 people for
01:49:38.180 me right
01:49:38.660 now to get
01:49:39.160 a handle
01:49:39.460 on how
01:49:39.680 to fix
01:49:39.980 America
01:49:40.400 are
01:49:41.460 Muslims
01:49:43.320 who
01:49:44.700 I mean
01:49:45.660 so they're
01:49:46.260 not hysterical
01:49:47.280 when things
01:49:48.020 are happening
01:49:48.540 right
01:49:49.220 Muslims
01:49:49.620 it's a
01:49:50.140 it's a
01:49:50.460 it's not
01:49:51.140 a monolith
01:49:51.600 it's like
01:49:52.040 Latinos
01:49:52.460 right
01:49:52.840 like the
01:49:53.140 big joke
01:49:53.520 was that
01:49:53.860 Biden won
01:49:54.420 the Latinx
01:49:55.380 vote
01:49:55.620 and Trump
01:49:55.960 won the
01:49:56.240 Latino
01:49:56.540 vote
01:49:56.840 and it's
01:49:57.480 like this
01:49:57.800 notion
01:49:58.080 that Latinos 0.81
01:49:58.540 are monolith
01:49:59.060 is in
01:49:59.660 like do you
01:50:00.580 have Mexican
01:50:01.260 friends and
01:50:01.800 family
01:50:02.180 talk to them
01:50:02.980 then talk
01:50:03.440 to their
01:50:03.700 parents
01:50:04.020 then talk
01:50:04.640 to their
01:50:04.860 grandparents
01:50:05.200 like it's
01:50:06.300 a no-brainer
01:50:06.980 if you're
01:50:07.580 off Twitter
01:50:08.180 that the
01:50:09.140 Latino
01:50:09.360 community
01:50:09.760 is complicated
01:50:10.540 and there's
01:50:11.140 all sorts
01:50:11.600 of different
01:50:12.120 variations
01:50:12.840 if you're
01:50:13.320 Cuban
01:50:13.680 and right
01:50:14.960 anyways we
01:50:15.420 don't have
01:50:15.640 to belabor
01:50:16.080 it
01:50:16.280 but with
01:50:16.700 Muslims
01:50:17.020 there's a
01:50:17.540 core set
01:50:18.140 of traditional
01:50:18.780 values
01:50:19.140 there's more
01:50:20.140 of a matriarchy 0.99
01:50:21.000 in some of
01:50:21.600 these cultures
01:50:22.280 than we would
01:50:23.040 think from the
01:50:23.720 outside
01:50:24.040 there's a very
01:50:24.740 empowered role
01:50:25.480 for women
01:50:25.880 to play
01:50:26.320 and so in
01:50:27.360 the negotiation
01:50:28.340 Muslim
01:50:29.960 women a lot 1.00
01:50:31.400 they're used
01:50:32.200 to standing
01:50:32.700 up with
01:50:33.240 and negotiating
01:50:33.860 with strong
01:50:34.440 men
01:50:34.740 as one word
01:50:35.600 but also
01:50:36.060 strong men
01:50:36.880 in a positive
01:50:37.560 way
01:50:37.980 and that means
01:50:38.900 they're really
01:50:39.360 strong women 0.96
01:50:40.000 and it's
01:50:40.780 like it's
01:50:41.320 incredible
01:50:41.840 level of
01:50:42.700 insight to be
01:50:43.340 like oh
01:50:43.780 so you're
01:50:44.780 trying to
01:50:45.100 negotiate
01:50:45.460 the balance
01:50:45.920 between
01:50:46.260 freedoms
01:50:46.760 and law
01:50:47.820 and rights
01:50:48.300 right now
01:50:48.800 we've been
01:50:49.620 doing that
01:50:50.000 for a while
01:50:50.560 but and so
01:50:51.940 that's part
01:50:52.420 of it
01:50:52.660 where there's
01:50:53.460 an exposure
01:50:54.480 into more
01:50:55.160 Muslim thinkers
01:50:55.860 of different
01:50:56.400 stripes
01:50:56.840 I think
01:50:57.220 that's very
01:50:57.580 important
01:50:57.920 well okay
01:50:58.780 so I'm
01:50:59.140 going to say
01:50:59.540 in my own
01:51:00.000 defense
01:51:00.420 in some sense
01:51:01.940 that I was
01:51:02.800 willing to do
01:51:03.580 this badly
01:51:04.440 because like
01:51:05.180 what do I
01:51:05.620 know about
01:51:06.120 Islam
01:51:06.920 I mean
01:51:07.620 and I can't
01:51:08.620 even know
01:51:09.020 about it
01:51:09.380 in some sense
01:51:09.980 in some real
01:51:10.880 sense
01:51:11.180 because it's
01:51:11.700 so complicated
01:51:12.640 and to
01:51:13.940 delve into
01:51:14.580 it
01:51:14.740 and to
01:51:15.020 become a
01:51:15.820 master
01:51:16.120 of the
01:51:16.460 Quran
01:51:16.700 I mean
01:51:17.180 I'm not
01:51:17.440 a master
01:51:17.800 of the
01:51:18.060 Bible
01:51:18.360 for God's
01:51:18.980 sake
01:51:19.100 you know
01:51:19.480 and so
01:51:20.180 and then
01:51:21.000 and so I've
01:51:21.640 had these
01:51:22.000 conversations
01:51:22.620 that span
01:51:24.200 the Islamic
01:51:24.900 spectrum
01:51:25.360 in some
01:51:25.940 sense
01:51:26.320 because I
01:51:26.640 talked to
01:51:27.140 Ayaan Hirzi Ali
01:51:27.900 obviously
01:51:28.400 who I really
01:51:29.100 respect
01:51:29.520 she's
01:51:29.920 she's a
01:51:30.460 hell of a 0.98
01:51:31.000 woman 0.99
01:51:31.180 incredible
01:51:31.520 and certainly
01:51:32.400 from one
01:51:33.000 perspective
01:51:33.600 but like
01:51:35.000 to be
01:51:35.380 completely
01:51:36.100 admired
01:51:36.680 for her
01:51:37.420 courage
01:51:38.160 and clarity
01:51:39.020 and intellect
01:51:39.740 and strength
01:51:40.300 like it's
01:51:40.820 staggering
01:51:41.260 and then I
01:51:42.240 talked
01:51:42.580 I talked
01:51:43.120 all the way
01:51:43.580 through the
01:51:44.060 Islamic
01:51:44.600 political
01:51:45.120 spectrum
01:51:45.600 let's say
01:51:46.120 to
01:51:46.740 to Mohammed 0.70
01:51:47.500 Hijab 0.93
01:51:47.960 who's on
01:51:48.360 the traditionalist
01:51:49.100 end
01:51:49.280 and who
01:51:49.500 debated
01:51:49.960 Ayaan
01:51:50.600 on my
01:51:51.800 daughter's
01:51:52.260 podcast
01:51:52.780 and so
01:51:53.820 I've been
01:51:54.520 trying to
01:51:55.200 open myself
01:51:56.140 up to as
01:51:56.640 wide a number
01:51:57.140 of views
01:51:57.460 as possible
01:51:57.840 I just want
01:51:59.420 to say one
01:51:59.780 thing
01:51:59.960 is that
01:52:00.240 I think
01:52:00.580 that
01:52:00.820 there's a
01:52:01.820 whole
01:52:01.980 I'm going
01:52:02.260 to talk
01:52:02.640 to Muslims
01:52:03.080 even if I
01:52:03.580 do it 1.00
01:52:03.860 stupidly 1.00
01:52:04.620 there's a 1.00
01:52:05.180 messaging
01:52:06.100 and a
01:52:06.740 context
01:52:07.240 which
01:52:07.560 seeps back
01:52:08.340 in
01:52:08.560 which has
01:52:09.060 something to
01:52:09.500 do with
01:52:09.700 the dream
01:52:10.040 I think
01:52:10.500 and it
01:52:11.280 has something
01:52:11.660 to do
01:52:11.900 with the
01:52:12.220 strange
01:52:12.800 fact
01:52:13.300 that
01:52:13.640 you
01:52:14.480 sign up
01:52:15.760 with Daily
01:52:16.080 Wire
01:52:16.400 and then
01:52:17.200 you put
01:52:17.420 out a
01:52:17.640 message
01:52:17.880 to Muslims
01:52:18.540 and that
01:52:19.260 cannot be
01:52:19.940 ignored
01:52:20.460 the context
01:52:21.820 of that
01:52:22.340 and everybody
01:52:23.340 understands
01:52:24.160 Daily Wire
01:52:24.700 is positioning
01:52:25.400 keep commenting
01:52:26.440 where's the
01:52:27.160 message to
01:52:27.680 the Jews
01:52:28.220 and I think
01:52:29.340 delete
01:52:29.820 but I get
01:52:31.360 the point
01:52:31.940 I'm still
01:52:32.620 waiting
01:52:32.960 Jordan
01:52:33.400 still waiting
01:52:34.840 so here's
01:52:36.180 the thing
01:52:36.560 that's interesting
01:52:37.120 you guys can
01:52:37.580 generate your
01:52:38.160 own bad
01:52:38.560 message 0.95
01:52:38.900 like you
01:52:40.360 have
01:52:40.720 forever
01:52:41.300 we don't 0.98
01:52:43.080 suck at 0.80
01:52:43.480 storytelling 0.99
01:52:44.000 no
01:52:44.400 no
01:52:44.920 no
01:52:45.080 yeah
01:52:46.840 I mean
01:52:47.360 okay
01:52:47.920 so for me
01:52:48.820 the solution
01:52:50.540 is this
01:52:51.060 the solution
01:52:51.560 is what
01:52:51.980 we're doing
01:52:52.460 now
01:52:52.900 yes
01:52:53.620 right
01:52:53.900 but how much
01:52:54.920 of that has
01:52:55.400 to be done
01:52:55.860 post hoc
01:52:56.660 like
01:52:56.980 yes
01:52:57.420 yes
01:52:57.780 but what I'm
01:52:58.320 saying is
01:52:58.740 is when you
01:52:59.280 say okay
01:52:59.980 so I did
01:53:00.440 it I did 0.99
01:53:00.700 it stupidly 0.99
01:53:01.360 your humility 1.00
01:53:02.520 and willingness
01:53:03.340 to sit here
01:53:04.140 and have this
01:53:04.800 conversation
01:53:05.420 right
01:53:06.520 and be
01:53:07.120 just because I think
01:53:08.560 I can take you
01:53:09.280 in the final
01:53:09.760 I know I know
01:53:10.420 I know
01:53:10.740 but but the
01:53:13.680 willingness to do
01:53:14.620 that to my
01:53:15.600 mind is all
01:53:16.240 that's required
01:53:17.020 and I want to go
01:53:18.140 through the other
01:53:18.800 two tweets
01:53:19.380 because I do
01:53:20.020 think that I
01:53:20.960 would also say
01:53:21.640 look there's
01:53:22.400 suggestions that I
01:53:23.200 would have about
01:53:23.960 what type of
01:53:24.940 positive movement
01:53:26.140 you could make
01:53:26.720 on these three
01:53:27.360 fronts
01:53:27.820 but all that it
01:53:29.520 is is that
01:53:30.140 you can progress
01:53:31.100 boldly 1.00
01:53:31.660 and be a fool 1.00
01:53:32.520 because the fool 1.00
01:53:33.760 precedes the master 1.00
01:53:34.580 and then accept
01:53:36.000 with humility
01:53:37.320 that you should
01:53:38.080 have had greater
01:53:38.640 responsibility
01:53:39.180 and then you make
01:53:40.160 a correction
01:53:40.380 well I don't think
01:53:40.800 there's any other
01:53:41.420 way of doing it
01:53:42.220 than that
01:53:42.580 because you're
01:53:43.120 going to have
01:53:43.500 to foray 1.00
01:53:44.080 forward stupidly 0.99
01:53:45.160 but this part 0.99
01:53:45.580 has been missing
01:53:46.300 and it's been
01:53:47.500 a drumbeat
01:53:48.920 of one side
01:53:50.020 of
01:53:50.380 that's exactly
01:53:51.200 why we're
01:53:51.880 having the
01:53:52.240 conversation
01:53:52.620 and I knew
01:53:53.420 it was missing
01:53:54.060 you know
01:53:54.340 I mean
01:53:54.680 with the Elliot
01:53:55.320 Page front
01:53:56.860 and I know
01:53:57.260 we're going to
01:53:57.560 get to that
01:53:58.020 in a minute
01:53:58.360 because we
01:53:58.720 still have to
01:53:59.240 return to
01:53:59.580 Sports Illustrated
01:54:00.140 and Peugeot
01:54:00.580 you're dying
01:54:01.000 to do that
01:54:01.480 but like
01:54:02.360 part of
01:54:02.660 what I said
01:54:03.080 to you
01:54:03.320 was well
01:54:03.660 why aren't
01:54:04.100 you going
01:54:04.540 after
01:54:05.060 women who 0.99
01:54:07.120 get double
01:54:07.640 D implants
01:54:08.300 and enter 0.99
01:54:08.700 porn
01:54:08.940 and your
01:54:09.760 answer to
01:54:10.200 me was
01:54:10.600 well they're
01:54:11.040 not causing
01:54:11.680 a wholesale
01:54:12.200 industry
01:54:12.720 of whatever
01:54:13.360 to happen
01:54:13.780 but they are
01:54:14.520 fomenting
01:54:15.300 a porn
01:54:15.840 revolution
01:54:16.460 that's
01:54:16.900 decimating
01:54:17.520 sexual behavior
01:54:18.320 and that was
01:54:18.840 my point
01:54:19.280 to you
01:54:19.660 so fine
01:54:21.160 do you want
01:54:21.600 to come
01:54:22.620 in a
01:54:23.840 context
01:54:24.540 that feels
01:54:25.260 holy roller
01:54:26.040 ish
01:54:26.400 even against
01:54:27.100 something
01:54:27.420 that is
01:54:28.060 fair
01:54:28.380 and that
01:54:28.640 is problematic
01:54:29.200 and doesn't
01:54:29.860 have nuance
01:54:30.280 and doesn't
01:54:30.620 have lines
01:54:31.180 she's a
01:54:31.960 25 year old
01:54:33.120 woman with 0.99
01:54:33.480 11,000
01:54:34.200 followers
01:54:34.700 the hard
01:54:35.480 rule is
01:54:35.960 if you have
01:54:36.520 two
01:54:36.920 if you have
01:54:38.040 billions of
01:54:38.620 views
01:54:39.040 and millions
01:54:39.640 of followers
01:54:40.280 you don't
01:54:41.680 denigrate
01:54:42.320 what her
01:54:42.860 body looks
01:54:43.460 like
01:54:43.800 on her
01:54:44.380 specifically
01:54:45.080 on Twitter
01:54:46.180 which is
01:54:46.720 asymmetrical
01:54:47.560 warfare
01:54:48.000 and then
01:54:48.920 complain that
01:54:49.540 Twitter's
01:54:49.960 mean and
01:54:50.360 retreat from
01:54:50.840 it again
01:54:51.240 well you know
01:54:52.940 it's a funny
01:54:53.480 thing too
01:54:54.000 yeah
01:54:54.520 the second
01:54:55.440 part of
01:54:55.800 that I
01:54:56.020 think is
01:54:56.320 the most
01:54:56.640 relevant
01:54:56.980 part is
01:54:57.500 because the
01:54:58.820 way I
01:54:59.280 handled it
01:54:59.880 made it
01:55:00.560 look like
01:55:01.220 the reason
01:55:01.880 I went
01:55:02.580 off Twitter
01:55:03.360 hypothetically
01:55:04.120 which I
01:55:04.540 didn't exactly
01:55:05.260 do was
01:55:06.040 because of
01:55:06.580 the blowback
01:55:07.220 from that
01:55:07.700 and that
01:55:08.320 wasn't actually
01:55:08.900 the case
01:55:09.400 but that was
01:55:09.920 definitely a
01:55:10.420 communication
01:55:10.760 problem on
01:55:11.560 my part
01:55:12.020 I mean it
01:55:12.440 was part of
01:55:12.940 the case
01:55:13.180 you already
01:55:13.380 said you'd
01:55:13.880 be off
01:55:14.280 so you're
01:55:14.880 like I'm
01:55:15.340 going to
01:55:15.520 be off
01:55:15.980 I'm bigger
01:55:16.500 than this
01:55:16.940 then you
01:55:17.260 came in
01:55:17.700 and you're
01:55:18.080 like the
01:55:18.980 bad guy
01:55:19.600 in Revenge
01:55:20.200 of the Nerds
01:55:21.280 who goes in
01:55:22.580 and there's
01:55:23.000 like the
01:55:23.400 big bone
01:55:23.960 girl having
01:55:24.600 her moment
01:55:25.000 at the
01:55:25.280 prom
01:55:25.660 and you're
01:55:26.160 like denigrate
01:55:27.160 and humiliate 0.55
01:55:27.760 her and then
01:55:28.160 left
01:55:28.540 if your point
01:55:29.600 is to
01:55:29.900 Sports Illustrated
01:55:30.760 look
01:55:31.220 what you're
01:55:32.240 doing
01:55:32.500 Sports Illustrated
01:55:33.640 you're supposed
01:55:34.100 to celebrate
01:55:34.680 the athletic
01:55:35.340 body
01:55:35.780 if she wants
01:55:36.600 to go be
01:55:37.260 a model
01:55:37.600 for the next
01:55:38.120 Rubens
01:55:38.660 good on her
01:55:39.720 right
01:55:40.680 she's having
01:55:42.040 her own
01:55:42.420 moment in
01:55:42.800 the sun
01:55:43.200 right now
01:55:44.000 and maybe
01:55:44.640 there's some
01:55:45.080 pride in it
01:55:45.540 but she's 0.97
01:55:45.920 25 and I
01:55:46.800 promise you
01:55:47.360 she's not
01:55:47.740 more prideful
01:55:48.580 than you
01:55:49.020 or I
01:55:49.320 at 25
01:55:49.840 so she's
01:55:50.660 making her 0.74
01:55:51.060 own choices
01:55:51.560 around this
01:55:52.160 and trying
01:55:52.980 to navigate
01:55:53.540 the difference
01:55:54.200 between beauty
01:55:55.080 and self-esteem
01:55:56.000 and what
01:55:59.180 would you say
01:55:59.660 health
01:56:00.060 and athleticism
01:56:01.400 in her own
01:56:02.240 life in a way
01:56:02.720 that makes
01:56:03.020 her feel whole
01:56:03.560 in a society
01:56:04.380 that's insane
01:56:05.180 and the
01:56:05.820 responsibility
01:56:06.300 for the society
01:56:07.200 being insane
01:56:07.840 is partially
01:56:08.640 us
01:56:09.160 because we've
01:56:09.940 failed to
01:56:10.440 define those
01:56:11.120 terms
01:56:11.400 sufficiently
01:56:11.920 so she's
01:56:12.740 25 and
01:56:13.360 confused about
01:56:14.020 that a little
01:56:14.620 bit and
01:56:15.020 taking a
01:56:15.520 moment
01:56:15.800 where she
01:56:16.440 feels good
01:56:16.980 she participated
01:56:17.600 in her own
01:56:18.500 exploitation
01:56:19.300 definitely did
01:56:23.700 that now
01:56:24.120 you could say
01:56:24.940 even by the
01:56:25.560 lights of the
01:56:26.040 argument that
01:56:26.480 you just laid
01:56:26.960 out is that
01:56:27.600 that's forgivable
01:56:28.720 at her age
01:56:30.120 and with that
01:56:30.600 opportunity
01:56:31.340 beckoning and
01:56:32.900 why would you
01:56:33.440 expect the
01:56:34.160 kind of wisdom
01:56:34.740 that would be
01:56:35.260 able to negotiate
01:56:35.880 that at that
01:56:36.540 age and that
01:56:37.040 still doesn't
01:56:37.600 justify the fact
01:56:38.400 that you went
01:56:38.880 after her and
01:56:39.380 that you went
01:56:39.740 after her
01:56:40.140 personally
01:56:40.500 but I think
01:56:41.420 you're on worse
01:56:42.180 ground than
01:56:42.760 when you said
01:56:43.340 it's sports
01:56:43.820 illustrated because
01:56:44.700 part of it you
01:56:45.220 could say look
01:56:45.740 let's say you
01:56:46.280 have I am I
01:56:47.000 think this is a
01:56:47.720 weaker point
01:56:48.420 it is weaker I
01:56:49.740 think right but
01:56:50.200 it's not nothing
01:56:51.040 so when I talk
01:56:51.880 to my daughter
01:56:52.400 about this for
01:56:53.160 example she says 0.67
01:56:54.000 yeah I don't
01:56:54.680 feel sorry for
01:56:55.280 this girl because
01:56:56.000 she's putting
01:56:56.820 forward an image
01:56:57.640 of obesity as
01:56:59.100 positive and it's
01:56:59.920 not positive and
01:57:00.820 it's not so
01:57:01.560 were you outraged
01:57:02.480 by this string of
01:57:03.720 endless heroin chic
01:57:05.220 like white Kate 0.90
01:57:06.540 Moss models 0.99
01:57:07.320 yes because I
01:57:08.500 dealt with people
01:57:09.040 that are eating
01:57:09.580 disorders
01:57:10.180 great did you
01:57:11.280 then bring did
01:57:12.180 you have access
01:57:12.760 to Twitter that
01:57:13.500 you brought the
01:57:14.160 fury of the
01:57:15.260 insane modern world
01:57:16.520 that was a while
01:57:16.940 ago you know
01:57:17.600 but it doesn't
01:57:18.260 matter you have
01:57:18.720 more responsibility
01:57:19.340 now and you
01:57:20.380 brought the fury
01:57:21.400 of the world of
01:57:22.360 the insane world
01:57:23.420 of Twitter down
01:57:24.560 on her head and
01:57:25.640 you've had that
01:57:26.200 directed at you and
01:57:27.120 it almost killed 0.52
01:57:27.900 you and she's a 0.66
01:57:28.600 25 year old woman
01:57:29.680 yeah you brought
01:57:30.840 that okay but
01:57:31.560 then you know
01:57:31.900 what that is
01:57:32.440 but then I would
01:57:33.020 say in defense to
01:57:34.640 that it's that
01:57:35.680 and this is also
01:57:37.100 part of what gets
01:57:38.000 tangled up in the
01:57:38.760 liberal conservative
01:57:40.120 debate with regard
01:57:41.100 to the moral high
01:57:41.760 ground part of the
01:57:42.880 argument that you're
01:57:43.540 making is that I
01:57:44.280 was mean to this
01:57:45.100 girl and I would
01:57:46.320 say I think you
01:57:47.820 can make that case
01:57:48.580 but then I would
01:57:49.420 also say that a
01:57:51.040 line has to be
01:57:51.960 drawn and it's
01:57:55.460 very difficult to
01:57:56.360 draw a line in
01:57:57.360 actuality without
01:57:58.340 also involving a
01:57:59.860 person who's
01:58:00.600 involved in it
01:58:01.460 so it's pretty so
01:58:02.220 it's pretty easy
01:58:03.040 first of all
01:58:03.760 sports illustrated
01:58:04.660 editorial that's
01:58:05.920 one they're an
01:58:06.620 institution second
01:58:08.200 of all and by
01:58:08.820 the way she's
01:58:09.400 following around
01:58:10.080 having millions of
01:58:11.100 people now say
01:58:11.980 nope sorry not
01:58:13.080 beautiful in her
01:58:13.800 head I know I
01:58:14.760 know that but I
01:58:15.460 don't think that
01:58:16.060 you get to say
01:58:16.800 that it was wrong
01:58:17.560 because because you
01:58:19.420 feel sorry for this
01:58:20.360 girl and this is
01:58:21.060 what happens on the
01:58:21.740 left all the time
01:58:22.560 is that they point
01:58:23.900 to the violation of
01:58:24.780 a moral virtue and
01:58:25.560 they say okay look
01:58:26.260 you hurt someone
01:58:27.020 here's where it is
01:58:27.760 yeah but Jesus
01:58:29.080 things are falling
01:58:30.240 apart so fair I
01:58:31.560 get it I get it so
01:58:32.740 whiny empathy
01:58:33.920 liberal argument let
01:58:34.820 me take it out of
01:58:35.340 context you want
01:58:36.840 to draw a line
01:58:37.560 women's bodies 0.98
01:58:39.120 young women's
01:58:40.180 bodies it's
01:58:41.200 complicated Jordan
01:58:42.220 right kind of
01:58:42.940 like like Islam 1.00
01:58:44.240 and and race in
01:58:46.580 America it's a 0.96
01:58:47.440 complicated topic
01:58:48.420 with a lot of
01:58:48.900 hard feelings
01:58:49.600 absolutely you
01:58:50.660 want to draw a
01:58:51.320 line as a
01:58:52.100 clinician and
01:58:52.700 with all of
01:58:53.320 your you're
01:58:53.940 starting like a
01:58:54.640 league of nations
01:58:55.340 you're a professor
01:58:56.120 at 18 different
01:58:56.900 places you can
01:58:57.640 publish a paper
01:58:58.240 anywhere is the
01:58:59.920 plan if we bring
01:59:00.900 together the
01:59:01.540 greatest think tank
01:59:02.620 of geniuses
01:59:03.840 liberal and
01:59:04.280 conservative sit
01:59:05.000 down to say
01:59:05.640 what you should do
01:59:06.780 with this is to
01:59:08.060 go on Twitter and
01:59:09.160 with one second of
01:59:10.280 consideration right
01:59:12.040 lambast somebody 1.00
01:59:13.480 because you're in a
01:59:14.100 mood wait when you
01:59:15.720 said you'd be off
01:59:16.600 Twitter and your
01:59:17.400 answer is well the
01:59:18.340 article pissed me
01:59:19.140 off yeah right
01:59:20.340 right right and
01:59:21.580 then you're so you
01:59:22.300 can hide behind all
01:59:23.340 the liberal
01:59:23.820 weakness
01:59:24.280 with all of
01:59:26.200 empathy but it's
01:59:27.200 like look do it
01:59:28.100 properly then
01:59:28.820 yeah right right
01:59:30.100 and don't hide
01:59:31.980 your your lack of
01:59:33.400 self-control and
01:59:34.520 your inability to
01:59:35.380 control your
01:59:36.180 disdain for
01:59:37.060 something you've
01:59:37.600 turned into a
01:59:37.980 monolith
01:59:38.300 drawing the
01:59:38.760 proper lines
01:59:39.540 right and also
01:59:40.420 like and then
01:59:41.140 call that liberal
01:59:42.120 empathy weakness
01:59:43.120 good one yeah
01:59:45.840 yeah yeah yeah
01:59:46.820 yeah no no no I
01:59:48.520 mean that gets us
01:59:49.660 into a discussion I
01:59:51.460 would say to some
01:59:52.380 degree about Twitter
01:59:53.120 per se
01:59:53.780 in today's chaotic
01:59:55.960 world many of us are
01:59:57.160 searching for a way to
01:59:58.080 aim higher and find
01:59:59.200 spiritual peace but
02:00:00.800 here's the thing
02:00:01.480 prayer the most
02:00:02.560 common tool we have
02:00:03.640 isn't just about
02:00:04.360 saying whatever comes
02:00:05.240 to mind it's a skill
02:00:06.620 that needs to be
02:00:07.460 developed that's where
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02:00:59.280 download the hallo app
02:01:00.560 just go to hallo.com slash
02:01:02.820 jordan and download the
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02:01:08.640 elevate your prayer life
02:01:10.420 today
02:01:10.800 part of what we're laying
02:01:16.140 out I would say is
02:01:17.020 twitter is not the place for
02:01:18.240 these discussions and so
02:01:19.560 that opens a broader
02:01:20.340 question which is is twitter a
02:01:22.680 place for any discussion about
02:01:24.740 anything twitter is like so
02:01:26.240 let's say let's let's we
02:01:28.060 let's say you're it's so
02:01:31.000 it's so funny because people
02:01:34.380 pay you so many compliments
02:01:35.560 and so it's funny when I
02:01:36.640 like have to in the course
02:01:37.780 of making your argument
02:01:38.460 but it pains me so much
02:01:39.900 as it should it's like when
02:01:41.280 I beat you at most things
02:01:42.540 it's just painful but okay so
02:01:45.460 you're one of the great
02:01:46.240 minds of a generation you
02:01:48.100 have a transformative
02:01:49.020 intellect you have an
02:01:50.120 ability to frame things in a
02:01:51.420 way that make people see
02:01:53.500 things through epiphany that
02:01:54.980 is altering we've talked
02:01:56.180 about the difference
02:01:56.700 between the semantic and
02:01:57.660 the procedural and how you
02:01:58.860 get things in a ritual you
02:02:00.380 know how to do that you're
02:02:02.500 occupied if you're on 0.99
02:02:03.440 twitter you are insane you 1.00
02:02:05.060 are dealing with a monster 1.00
02:02:05.900 that you don't know what it
02:02:06.640 is clinical curiosity okay
02:02:08.920 doc like jonathan hate
02:02:10.320 manages to act like an
02:02:11.360 adult but he's on facebook
02:02:12.580 he studies twitter i know but
02:02:15.220 he's but his primary i'm not
02:02:17.580 making an excuse but his
02:02:19.120 primary domain of
02:02:20.800 concentration is facebook and
02:02:22.420 facebook for all its insanity
02:02:23.900 is not as insane as twitter
02:02:25.780 that's true but also twitter
02:02:27.080 suits your temperament because
02:02:28.340 he's got a more even
02:02:29.340 temperament than you yes he
02:02:30.480 does i happen to pick the
02:02:31.860 most toxic right social media
02:02:33.820 platform it's like it's like a
02:02:34.900 video game where you're like oh
02:02:36.280 we don't know who's on here it's
02:02:37.900 a mind control game let me go on
02:02:39.600 there and cause 90 percent of
02:02:42.500 the discourse in the public to 1.00
02:02:44.480 be about me playing a stupid 1.00
02:02:46.200 addiction game and the elliott 1.00
02:02:47.900 page thing when it devolved into
02:02:49.380 and i get this email chain it's
02:02:51.520 always when jordan does
02:02:52.340 something like what i would 0.90
02:02:55.360 call dumb but you know call it 0.97
02:02:57.040 ill-advised or or maybe other 0.99
02:02:59.120 people think it was great
02:03:00.100 nonetheless something
02:03:01.380 pronounced let's just say like
02:03:03.220 all of a sudden my phone
02:03:04.140 explodes because everyone's 1.00
02:03:05.180 like what's what's this idiot 1.00
02:03:06.740 doing now it's like jordan 1.00
02:03:08.340 drank moonshine and got the dog
02:03:09.980 pregnant it's like it's like 0.99
02:03:11.260 where is he like go find this
02:03:13.160 guy right it's like it's a
02:03:15.380 disaster anyway so everything's
02:03:18.120 like blowing up about this and
02:03:20.540 then i'm on these chains i
02:03:21.780 forgot i was in some meeting 1.00
02:03:22.960 you really are an awful person 0.52
02:03:25.340 i know fundamentally there's no 0.98
02:03:27.020 doubt about it but so i come out
02:03:28.780 of this thing and it's like i'm
02:03:30.060 on this chain with like like you
02:03:32.860 know who are we going to gather
02:03:34.200 up to be against freedom of
02:03:35.960 speech and it's like every
02:03:37.200 thinker imaginables on a chain and
02:03:39.580 how do we get to elon it's like
02:03:40.840 and it all was so performative to
02:03:43.120 me and then you're like i'd rather
02:03:44.120 die than take down the tweet and
02:03:45.720 it was like jordan you're in a
02:03:47.440 video game that's designed by
02:03:48.820 teams of addiction specialists to
02:03:51.080 skew your opinion a bunch of
02:03:52.800 ways and to make you angry and
02:03:54.440 outraged and to make you
02:03:56.140 represent views and say things
02:03:57.820 in captured language that's
02:03:59.200 offensive to the other side to
02:04:00.480 drive polarization further that's
02:04:02.540 the medium yeah well it's really
02:04:04.300 it really is hard to say just
02:04:07.940 exactly how dangerous twitter is i
02:04:09.740 mean one of the things i've very
02:04:11.140 much noticed is that on twitter
02:04:13.280 people regularly say things like
02:04:16.380 and this just happens it's
02:04:18.420 constant people say things on
02:04:20.660 twitter that are so outrageous
02:04:22.100 they would never say them even
02:04:24.380 once face to face to anyone in
02:04:27.560 their whole life like you to that
02:04:29.820 swimsuit model you would never say
02:04:31.860 that to a 25 year old woman in my 1.00
02:04:34.220 own defense i would say i wasn't
02:04:35.920 saying it to her i was saying it to
02:04:38.600 the people who insist that we accept
02:04:40.900 a particular standard of beauty that
02:04:42.480 has nothing to do with beauty in
02:04:44.300 order to advertise their moral
02:04:45.820 superiority at being tolerant great
02:04:48.200 so you did that 140 characters well
02:04:50.260 you think no no i don't so and and
02:04:52.480 is that like the interpretation of
02:04:54.000 the world no the interpretation of
02:04:56.120 the world is she got blown up no no
02:04:58.880 that isn't all that happened though
02:05:00.140 because there was okay one thing that
02:05:02.180 happened yes that's one of the
02:05:03.380 things but you made a choice with
02:05:05.400 one second delay so there's
02:05:07.580 different responses yeah well so
02:05:08.940 elliot page is saying look yes but
02:05:10.960 yeah yeah well it was this subversion
02:05:13.400 of beauty to the presumption of
02:05:15.280 tolerance it wasn't only a subversion
02:05:17.320 of beauty but it was clearly a
02:05:19.080 marketing decision on their part they
02:05:21.200 made a youtube video where they show
02:05:23.900 how they tell her that she's on the
02:05:25.740 cover and obviously everybody's
02:05:27.020 surprised and they're filming her
02:05:28.880 being surprised because they know
02:05:30.260 that this is a marketing ploy to
02:05:32.660 virtue signal to the world so do so do
02:05:34.720 both then it's like look for me it's
02:05:36.660 like which dog do you feed right you
02:05:38.180 have justice jackson she said one 0.99
02:05:39.900 thing you thought was dumb you've 0.96
02:05:41.620 said just by dint of this 0.95
02:05:43.300 conversations a score of things that 0.97
02:05:45.060 i think are dumb probably some in the 0.93
02:05:47.680 conversation itself well and me too 0.98
02:05:49.620 right it's like you could go back and
02:05:51.300 rewind this and right write me a
02:05:53.260 manic email the night and take my 0.75
02:05:54.920 head off dog comment yeah example
02:05:56.660 what the moon's different let's not
02:06:00.260 bring it back up yeah how about that
02:06:01.920 oh yeah yeah that one we'll cut that
02:06:03.820 and that doesn't need to go out on
02:06:05.020 the daily wire i don't after we
02:06:07.060 talked about showing greater
02:06:08.220 discretion um but look part of that
02:06:11.000 is the point though because one of
02:06:12.320 the things you said that i thought
02:06:13.160 was valid is you said look you have
02:06:15.160 to work up a certain amount of
02:06:16.440 vehemence to go up against the world
02:06:18.100 and that's true with this
02:06:19.340 conversation with me and part of it is
02:06:20.980 i was like look i can't not make
02:06:22.800 jokes that i mean i could if i was
02:06:25.280 better than i am no no no you
02:06:26.860 shouldn't stop doing that and i have
02:06:28.800 to get up ahead of steam yeah and it
02:06:30.800 doesn't mean i feel that vehemently
02:06:32.720 in some great moral sense there's
02:06:34.520 tons of you come back constantly and
02:06:36.620 cut down my argument to to size as
02:06:39.140 you should but so part of what you
02:06:40.880 were saying is there's a certain
02:06:41.860 amount of vehemence that i need to
02:06:43.020 enter the marketplace especially
02:06:45.180 especially newly out of a healing
02:06:47.660 crisis in which you died well with
02:06:49.440 these pre-prepared
02:06:50.520 more journalistic pieces that i've done
02:06:54.400 some of with the daily where i was
02:06:55.820 doing them before i read them and
02:06:57.260 people are less happy about that in
02:06:58.740 some sense you know because it's not
02:07:00.140 spontaneous but i want to think
02:07:01.900 through the argument partly to address
02:07:04.080 some of the issues we're describing
02:07:05.480 but then for example i recorded one
02:07:08.400 this week which was a criticism let's
02:07:11.000 say of the trudeau government and
02:07:13.160 there's like a hundred criticisms in
02:07:15.120 the article and it's very it takes
02:07:18.160 very much effort to lay out an
02:07:20.560 argument like that that's a hundred
02:07:22.100 criticisms and then to face down the
02:07:24.960 government in some real sense and it's
02:07:26.520 very difficult to do that without
02:07:27.980 building up somewhat of a head of
02:07:30.000 steam it's like because it'd be
02:07:31.160 easier just to
02:07:31.920 lay in bed and so read a stephen king
02:07:35.620 novel or something much easier which is
02:07:37.460 like the best thing that we should all
02:07:39.440 be doing right now instead of this
02:07:41.440 however
02:07:42.360 i totally agree and so the standard for
02:07:47.000 me and that's the balance between what
02:07:48.500 rubin was saying was was wisely saying
02:07:51.300 right because the point isn't that we
02:07:52.800 cut you down
02:07:53.560 to size and we take your rough edges
02:07:55.860 off and we moderate you that's what
02:07:57.560 people think with moderation yeah well
02:07:58.920 that's the compromise issue but we
02:08:00.380 don't want to compromise we want
02:08:01.760 transcendent and transcendent is if you
02:08:03.920 think long enough you get to something
02:08:06.100 that the majority of sane people can
02:08:08.280 agree on that's better and subjugate
02:08:10.740 themselves to to have something to aim
02:08:13.340 at and that's the work that needs to be
02:08:15.960 done so if you take a misstep because
02:08:18.500 you're human and because you're doing
02:08:20.900 stuff that's incredible and because
02:08:22.080 you're under an amazing amount of
02:08:23.440 pressure and because at different times
02:08:25.060 your brain's broken or revved wrong
02:08:27.880 all that matters is is the humility
02:08:31.000 which you're doing to address the
02:08:34.360 complexity of it and not do one of
02:08:36.020 those like hostage prison fake
02:08:38.060 apologies but like there's a certain
02:08:39.860 set of things that you could do to say
02:08:41.800 like maybe you do owe that young woman
02:08:45.000 an apology i don't know it's something
02:08:46.880 to think about what's most important is
02:08:48.700 is that you're willing to hear the fact
02:08:50.340 that you should and entertain that as a
02:08:52.080 realistic option you can do whatever you
02:08:53.960 want a see i scanning i scoured my
02:08:56.860 conscience i would say on this twit
02:08:58.460 these tweet fronts in some sense and i
02:09:01.200 had the same response in some ways that
02:09:02.880 you did in your dream which was i didn't
02:09:04.320 feel guilty but by the same token i
02:09:07.160 didn't feel that i had done it optimally
02:09:09.640 right and so and the issue here is these
02:09:12.840 things and maybe that's and you can't
02:09:14.600 apologize and you won't apologize to a
02:09:17.140 mob if you apologize to a mob you're a 0.92
02:09:18.920 coward yeah right don't apologize it also 0.88
02:09:22.220 and so never apologize to the same mob 0.92
02:09:24.660 because the mob is fluid it's like these
02:09:26.880 mosquitoes that but yeah it's like oh i
02:09:29.040 will outsource an apology to a bunch of
02:09:31.540 people who i don't know and who are not
02:09:33.380 democratically elected as representatives
02:09:35.320 of their party who it's like when people
02:09:37.460 criticize me for something that i feel
02:09:39.620 it's like really over the like 15 people
02:09:43.440 who are of somewhat like mind in my
02:09:46.620 community who i have like trust and
02:09:48.620 relationships with who criticize me way
02:09:50.740 more vehemently than that i'm going to
02:09:52.200 outsource this to you that i'm supposed to
02:09:53.680 apologize to you and you're probably not
02:09:55.320 even real yes exactly and so that's the
02:09:57.120 specific versus the general like i have
02:09:59.040 better critics than you
02:10:00.920 not that's right yes right that's right
02:10:03.820 you think you're critics right like
02:10:05.280 someone no idea like i do yeah whenever
02:10:07.540 i that's right yeah jim right with his
02:10:10.580 like sunshine and unicorns with jim it's
02:10:12.960 like jim tell me what you think but just
02:10:15.640 like right try and like you need mad you
02:10:18.300 need like zofran before you ask jim for
02:10:20.060 advice but so right and so part of it is
02:10:23.720 is that we're you can but there are some
02:10:26.960 so it's like well what's the difference
02:10:28.920 between apology that's performative and 0.98
02:10:30.600 stupid and something that is 0.99
02:10:32.180 well it's the separation of the wheat from 1.00
02:10:34.160 the chaff and it's also a show of proper
02:10:36.260 respect which is okay you talk to 0.92
02:10:38.560 muslims not optimally you talked about
02:10:40.560 race in america not optimally you talked
02:10:42.520 about the supreme court justice not
02:10:44.020 optimally given that you can't just flee
02:10:46.740 the institutions and only talk to people
02:10:48.660 who've been rejected by the institutions
02:10:50.060 among whom there's amazing people you
02:10:52.480 have brett weinstein you have james james
02:10:54.780 or is not you know what i mean but close
02:10:56.700 enough right but i mean you have
02:10:58.180 incredible people we also aren't we i
02:11:01.060 don't think you we want to decimate all
02:11:02.780 the institutions like part of it is you
02:11:05.040 want to go back and revivify well that's
02:11:06.720 when you get into a dangerous what i would
02:11:08.840 say is a dangerous right-wing populism
02:11:10.640 and i'd be talking to the conservatives
02:11:12.080 about that it's like you cannot come out
02:11:14.180 and say well the institutions are
02:11:16.020 irretrievably corrupt and that's
02:11:17.640 certainly one of the dangers of the
02:11:19.520 trump side of the populist right so
02:11:21.780 what's so what would be something like
02:11:23.800 this is me thinking not giving a
02:11:26.220 directive so you don't go make some
02:11:27.940 apology and be like i didn't understand
02:11:29.620 race in america and i'm sorry and i'll
02:11:31.180 read more tony morrison and fox yeah
02:11:32.940 yeah it's like who cares but what you
02:11:35.280 could do is to take steps to ensure
02:11:37.440 that justice jackson who whether you
02:11:40.000 agree with her not and whether you 0.99
02:11:41.820 agree with all the political idiocy that 1.00
02:11:43.800 surrounded her and maybe one dumb 1.00
02:11:45.760 answer is received in company that's 0.99
02:11:48.440 around you with the due measure of
02:11:50.240 respect and admiration that she deserves
02:11:52.180 and deserves to be disagreed with on
02:11:54.200 other tenants that's the thing that's
02:11:56.340 owed for i think well you and i have
02:11:58.280 been look you and i have been trying to
02:11:59.700 do those sorts of things where we have
02:12:01.520 the ability because we've been trying
02:12:03.280 to bring respectable democrats yes into
02:12:07.120 the conservative discussion and i would
02:12:10.120 say and you can say what you want about
02:12:12.420 this because i'd be interested to hear
02:12:14.080 but i think we've had more trouble
02:12:16.080 finding democrats who are willing to do
02:12:18.260 that than we've been having trouble
02:12:20.320 finding conservatives who will invite
02:12:22.060 them to do that
02:12:22.980 certain conservatives on the invite i have
02:12:30.360 no trouble with a whole tranche of
02:12:32.140 conservatives there's certain red lines
02:12:33.900 it's very hard to draw people across to
02:12:36.780 that that's other conservatives i think
02:12:38.580 we should not i think we should not go
02:12:40.240 into that so shall we close up with the
02:12:43.180 elliot page tweet i think that we've
02:12:46.500 talked about it all through yeah we have
02:12:48.420 and and and i think that i don't know i
02:12:50.460 don't know if there's more to really
02:12:51.700 add well so so here's it with me i mean
02:12:54.180 choose your words carefully yeah choose
02:12:56.440 your words carefully criminal physician
02:12:58.340 has a bunch of connotations if you're
02:13:00.860 is it a criminal physician if somebody
02:13:02.800 gets their face tattooed 500 times if
02:13:06.180 they get implants all over their body
02:13:08.240 there's a million things that that's a
02:13:09.940 good that's a good question and that
02:13:11.680 that's a whole separate discussion right
02:13:13.660 because you have a not really because
02:13:15.380 you're picking one out and you're not
02:13:16.940 looking at the others just like you did
02:13:18.560 with justice jackson well you can't look
02:13:20.680 at all them at the same time but you
02:13:22.640 look at one set particularly
02:13:24.620 mostly recently yeah and it's of a
02:13:27.540 direction i know i know that but it's
02:13:29.420 also the case that it's in that set is
02:13:32.140 causing a tremendous amount of trouble the
02:13:34.160 first look greg i knew when the pronoun
02:13:37.900 bill came out i knew that for every
02:13:41.720 trans kid that was hypothetically saved 1.00
02:13:44.040 we would doom a hundred confused
02:13:47.680 adolescent females because it that had 1.00
02:13:50.180 already happened on the anorexia front
02:13:52.320 it was like if you knew the literature it
02:13:54.140 was obvious what was going to happen
02:13:55.940 and so this this is there is an element of
02:13:59.520 the argument that's like well where do
02:14:01.520 adults have the right to draw the line
02:14:03.220 with regards to their own surgical
02:14:04.500 transformation perfectly reasonable thing
02:14:06.940 to debate to what degree can physicians be
02:14:09.420 complicit in this because there is a there
02:14:11.600 is a hippocratic oath problem there is
02:14:14.840 just because someone wants a horns 1.00
02:14:16.880 implanted in their head which people have
02:14:18.800 had done doesn't mean the physician has a
02:14:20.940 moral right to do that and i know that
02:14:22.860 those lines have to be drawn and the the
02:14:25.460 issue with regard to surgical
02:14:27.360 enhancement say sexual surgical
02:14:29.120 enhancement is also another borderline but
02:14:31.840 this is there is a line here it's like
02:14:33.900 we're enticing young people with this
02:14:36.960 fluidity issue we're enticing young
02:14:39.220 people to sterilize and mutilate 0.60
02:14:41.500 themselves and not just a few a lot and
02:14:45.000 and the incidence has skyrocketed to the
02:14:47.360 point where yesterday the day before the
02:14:49.440 uk closed its primary gender
02:14:51.320 transformation clinic it's like so this is
02:14:54.300 not just a difference in degree with
02:14:59.180 different with porn it isn't with what
02:15:01.300 with porn it's kind porn is decimating
02:15:04.340 yeah right well right but i don't think
02:15:06.640 it's reasonable to say that i shouldn't
02:15:08.620 have gone after the trans minor problem
02:15:11.800 because i didn't simultaneously go after
02:15:13.980 the porn problem but you didn't go after
02:15:15.780 a trans minor problem in a way that made
02:15:18.020 any sense because you don't know okay
02:15:20.340 well i'm sorry let's say like elliot page
02:15:24.080 is not a rapid onset gender dysphoria
02:15:27.840 convert who spent too long at marlboro school
02:15:30.720 in la maybe this maybe okay i don't
02:15:35.160 believe so we have we can i think you
02:15:36.980 could make a case that that he isn't but
02:15:41.880 he did it when when this was not trendy
02:15:45.200 he did it when ellen page walked away
02:15:48.320 from a lucrative career people can be
02:15:50.100 unbelievably confused for a very long
02:15:52.000 period of time and and the mere fact that
02:15:53.980 it's been a long time that they've been
02:15:55.780 confused doesn't mean that they've thought
02:15:57.740 it through when they make their decision
02:15:59.340 and i would say it hasn't been thought
02:16:01.360 okay can anyone wouldn't have been public
02:16:03.400 that's the thing it's like okay you did it
02:16:06.500 everything you think through wrong is
02:16:08.580 public and we're having a whole conversation
02:16:10.260 about the fact that you make mistakes right
02:16:12.000 but i'm not enticing adolescent girls to
02:16:14.600 sterilize themselves okay but are you
02:16:16.660 enticing when you make that comment about a
02:16:19.780 swimsuit model young men who worship you and
02:16:23.820 think that you're saint like to act like 0.97
02:16:25.920 pigs to women no but i might be encouraging 0.94
02:16:28.840 them to not respect the things i'm saying 0.98
02:16:31.660 because i'm being incautious and i would
02:16:33.880 say even if the so maybe so why not same
02:16:36.020 with ellen page okay yeah but the this is
02:16:40.160 the consequences yeah here it's like it's
02:16:43.220 like look you had you had your psychological
02:16:46.420 problems whatever they might be i'm not
02:16:48.540 going to argue about what they are um you
02:16:51.140 rectified them in a very very dramatic way
02:16:53.560 and perhaps that was your right and
02:16:55.560 perhaps it was the right of the surgeons
02:16:57.260 although i'm not convinced of either of
02:16:59.420 those things by the way it may be the case
02:17:01.860 but i'm not convinced of it but then you
02:17:06.460 made it not only public but triumphantly
02:17:09.540 public i finally found my true self and
02:17:12.840 i'm a model for emulation it's like i don't
02:17:15.660 think so i don't think but if he did do you
02:17:20.100 believe anyone is trans i wouldn't like 1.00
02:17:23.600 with all the variations in the world
02:17:25.300 including so i know the answer that
02:17:26.800 question someone comes to me and asks me
02:17:29.400 that question because people have asked me
02:17:30.800 those questions and the answer is we need
02:17:32.720 to talk about it for 5 000 hours that's
02:17:37.320 the answer okay so and so okay because
02:17:39.700 who knows what someone really is i mean
02:17:41.840 none of us know who we really are so if
02:17:44.800 do i believe that that that men can be born
02:17:47.500 in women's bodies i certainly don't believe 1.00
02:17:50.840 that statement is this is in any way an
02:17:55.080 adequate representation of either the problem
02:17:58.260 set or the solution here's an example do you
02:18:01.620 believe that anorexic women who think they're 1.00
02:18:03.760 too thin are too thin because they sure think
02:18:06.520 they are and i really i do not see how that's
02:18:09.480 not analogous and you know you we wouldn't
02:18:12.240 have so for me this is where it tacks to the
02:18:15.240 personal yeah where i have a friend a family
02:18:18.800 member who
02:18:20.440 lesbian working class mexican really funny
02:18:28.220 really irreverent yeah um went through
02:18:32.960 therapy master's degree two years of therapy
02:18:36.160 yeah calmly decide huge fan of yours yeah
02:18:39.400 listens to you every night went through
02:18:42.400 transition only questions that he came to me
02:18:45.980 with were how how do i be a better man because
02:18:48.760 i always say it's hard enough to be one gender
02:18:50.300 to do one gender well half of us aren't doing
02:18:52.320 it right yeah it's hard enough to be gay and
02:18:54.300 then if you want to switch gender and to me in
02:18:56.960 this in this individual yeah and i i don't want
02:18:59.680 to get into stats and numbers because it's it's a
02:19:02.840 different argument and i'm and i probably
02:19:04.980 can't keep up yeah this person is the fullest
02:19:09.080 embodiment of who he is meant to be and it's
02:19:12.780 somebody who i know intimately maybe well as much
02:19:15.560 as you could judge any as much as you are for me in
02:19:18.660 my eyes so whatever my opinion estimation is worth
02:19:21.500 well okay that'll switch things into a slightly
02:19:24.560 different so argument i i'm willing to accept that
02:19:27.380 because i already said that's an acceptance then
02:19:29.520 again wait a sec there's a there's contingency okay
02:19:32.720 if in finding your true identity you violate a cultural
02:19:38.000 norm that's so profound that you destabilize the
02:19:41.400 the entire country the entire culture then maybe you don't
02:19:45.440 have the right to do that even if it actualizes yourself
02:19:48.720 hmm but i don't know right is the manner of twitter
02:19:53.400 right like how many people who are not activists
02:19:56.760 are you engaged with regularly with their opinions
02:20:00.060 in the public marketplace of ideas like not a lot right there's a bit they
02:20:05.420 haven't had a full negotiation with the
02:20:08.380 american public yet right there's no rv milk there's no
02:20:12.060 martin luther king like it's a it's a conversation
02:20:14.740 that hasn't happened well i don't even necessarily think that that branch of the
02:20:19.300 the lgbtq plus community should be conceptualized in that manner that's the
02:20:24.280 thing that liberals do immediately this is another civil rights battle it's like
02:20:28.040 yeah oh no maybe but what maybe not what i'm saying is
02:20:31.540 is well maybe but maybe not gets proven if somebody can come forth who
02:20:36.460 appropriately negotiates with the culture
02:20:39.660 acceptance in a manner that is moral and by moral it doesn't mean
02:20:44.080 so john lewis another problem that's emerged out of this that's very very
02:20:48.640 complicated it's like okay so now the trans community is brought into the realm
02:20:54.020 of normativity in some sense let's say and so now and so here's where the wheel
02:20:59.680 that wheel hits the road so now you're a 10 year old and you're you're wondering
02:21:03.900 about your gender identity and your sexuality or maybe you're 11 and you're
02:21:08.180 confused because maybe you're a pretty feminine boy and maybe you're tilted
02:21:11.800 biologically towards being homosexual and now the conversation is well maybe you 1.00
02:21:16.400 should be castrated and the answer to that question is 1.00
02:21:20.460 yeah maybe that'll happen yeah and then there's another question that comes up is 1.00
02:21:25.440 like so is it so clear that the gay community is better off under the aegis of the 0.99
02:21:30.600 trans umbrella than they were under the aegis of the monos of the heterosexual 0.80
02:21:34.800 monogamists and the answer to that seems to me to be not only are they not
02:21:38.600 better off they're way way worse wait there's one more thing
02:21:42.060 there's one more thing the the inclusion violates the ideal and the norm and you
02:21:48.740 think well that's necessary because then it includes but one of the consequences
02:21:52.720 might be that if you extend the ideal so that it's too inclusive you blow the ideal
02:21:58.100 so that it's even worse for those who are marginalized yeah and i really do think
02:22:02.440 that's happening i know that in this battle i do too i do too and i agree with
02:22:06.840 everything that you've said about the complexities and the thing that is the
02:22:10.700 hardest is the removal of counsel teachers physicians everybody psychologists who
02:22:17.920 are no longer no longer allowed to have these conversations and i'm going to say
02:22:21.980 well how do i know they're not allowed to have these conversations and the answer is
02:22:25.440 because i have 10 lawsuits against me that's right for having these conversations
02:22:30.140 however badly i'm having them so so now we can surgically transform children 0.92
02:22:35.600 that we are not allowed to talk to yes and i think that elliot page aided and abetted that
02:22:43.080 okay and pridefully so there's two conversations that we're having and it's important to break it
02:22:48.880 down so one of them is in me saying do you think anyone's trans there's not a clear answer you can
02:22:54.100 get for that i have a different opinion that i believe that there are people that that is their
02:22:57.980 fullest most embodied self that's my opinion you don't need to share it well i would just say i don't
02:23:04.040 know because i'd have to talk to them great so then so talk to them and i mean people have all
02:23:09.060 sorts of weird identities you know so god only knows but so part of it for me and then there's
02:23:14.260 the whole issue of how it's moving through the culture which i do not want to defend because i
02:23:18.120 don't agree with it so i don't want to get pulled into a defense from me saying this of you saying well
02:23:22.980 that's what you liberals do all the time you bring it in and you normalize it and you pull it and
02:23:27.500 then you decimate what the norm is i'm saying well there's some advantages to to bringing in the
02:23:32.860 margins into the center to the degree that you can manage but what i'm saying is is it has that
02:23:37.100 is a conversation that has gone too fast given twitter and the pace of conversation like if
02:23:42.460 you're blowing up dave chappelle right right and dave chappelle is like especially for that comedy
02:23:47.980 performance did you listen to it you think he's anti-trans are you utterly clueless i would never
02:23:52.800 hesitate to have dave chappelle at my house with my transgender godson at the table and think it would 0.94
02:23:58.600 be anything he's like the most soulful jester of the court and you can't you can't cut down the
02:24:04.480 court jester because they're the source of wisdom and saying things that aren't allowed to be said
02:24:08.460 yeah and you don't get to cut the line in front of everybody else to do it either but part of that is
02:24:12.620 also like with your issue well who's democratically electing that leadership to criticize him well no one
02:24:18.180 it's like who knows what anybody thinks about anything so that's part of why i'm saying i don't want to
02:24:22.940 and have an argument with you about the entire movement of trans through the culture and all
02:24:29.000 the ways that that's being mismanaged because we're in agreement on a lot of that but i'm saying if there
02:24:33.340 is an absolute version of it then again landing here from outer space and you get to pick your team
02:24:39.500 of experts that this is something you want to discuss as a world the most famous psychologist in
02:24:44.500 the world yeah well i think part of the moral of the story is and this and this might be the
02:24:50.920 fundamental issue is twitter is not the place to have a discussion about serious and when you said
02:24:55.120 i mean i think maybe because we we did want to wrap up yeah we should wrap up let me get one thing in
02:25:00.040 and then i want to wrap up okay and so how you did it was imprecise because it was like everyone was
02:25:05.900 confused about it if you want a real solution in some ways i think any real solution has to involve
02:25:10.700 both instead of just like crushing and subverting yeah so who would be a really interesting conversation
02:25:16.300 like this one for you to have is if you and elliot page reset in another i have someone in the uk
02:25:22.540 okay and you're willing to say you know what it's like if i take you at your word of what it feels
02:25:28.160 like to be trapped in the wrong body here's kind of what's happening are what are your concerns
02:25:33.520 well that's what i did with reuben on the issue of gay parent that's right it's a missed opportunity
02:25:38.280 to do the thing that you are in many regards best suited to do which is say okay well where's
02:25:45.400 your line and where's my line and here's a bunch of concern and you have concern too if a bunch of
02:25:50.260 kids if there's a wave of rapid onset gender dysphoria and a whole bunch of kids are having
02:25:54.880 hormonal conversions that are irreversible before they're ready you don't want them stuck in the 0.98
02:25:59.620 wrong body what's the balance where do you think the balance is yep pulling out from the details of the
02:26:06.080 different tweets and the different messages that have come out i think that one of the things that
02:26:10.800 greg is expressing and i think that there are actually you would be surprised to know that
02:26:15.160 he's not just expressing it from the left like there's also i know conservative right-wing people
02:26:20.060 that have expressed some just a concern about role and that is something that you have to decide also
02:26:27.140 what your role is because the way in which many of us perceive you is a role which is able to raise
02:26:33.340 up above the fray of politics without being afraid of getting into politics but is able to raise up
02:26:40.460 above the fray of politics and is able to kind of cross over and disarm each side to a certain extent
02:26:47.260 because the manner in which you have people don't realize this but the manner to which you have
02:26:52.300 de-radicalized people that were moving in a frightening way towards the right and the manner in which
02:26:58.360 you have pulled people who thought that that people who are going also in the left and they didn't know
02:27:03.380 where they were you were able to kind of tell them look this is not what you think right you you can
02:27:07.400 you can think certain ways and it doesn't it doesn't you've been able to to really act as that strange
02:27:12.560 pivot and so so i think that in a way if there's a lot of weight on you it's very heavy but i think that
02:27:19.980 maybe that is what you're seeing it's not as heavy as doing it wrong yeah but maybe that's what you're
02:27:24.360 seeing is you're just seeing this call of people saying look if you fall into into the pundit we're
02:27:30.960 going to lose that which we love the most about jordan um and so yeah just say be attentive is the
02:27:38.320 only thing i think the call and you know what the left doesn't realize and the means let's say the
02:27:44.340 neg the the part of society that doesn't understand or judges jordan in ways that are unfair rather than
02:27:51.920 fair so negative judgment is the amount of work he's done pulling people out and criticizing the
02:28:01.480 alt-right like that's been a huge role right and if you're on this side of the fence everyone's like
02:28:06.200 he's creating the alt-right he's participating in positive masculinity and enforced monogamy that
02:28:10.840 doesn't have the meaning that anybody thinks that it has but there's whole podcasts where you're
02:28:16.220 speaking to the alt-right in a manner that is that is unbelievably critical and offering a different
02:28:23.680 path out and you had one person who wrote you a letter last time we were there that i don't think
02:28:29.500 you've talked about publicly high school a high school who literally was going to be a high school
02:28:33.700 shooter who said i was going to go shoot up my high school and i listened to you and i didn't shoot
02:28:38.900 up my high school and i thought and got help and was inappropriate hands at that point and i thought
02:28:45.680 that's a that's like a that's a piece of script like that the importance of that thing that happened
02:28:54.760 it's like so literally there now are a number of families in a whole community whose kids weren't
02:29:00.320 murdered as a result of that and so if there's certain things people are worried about you always
02:29:05.680 say if you if you right if you're afraid of weak men i'm sorry if you're afraid of strong men you
02:29:10.700 should be terrified of what weak men can accomplish and so that's the part of it and so that's why
02:29:15.740 these these small seemingly small um corruptions in the facade where it's like you're not being
02:29:25.720 gentlemanly you're not being this it feels nitpicky in the face of so much of what you're doing
02:29:29.880 but it's no no the details matter the details matter that's why elliot page and the swimsuit model
02:29:35.320 matter that's right that's they're not just details that's right and you getting that right
02:29:41.300 is important because the more that people on the right who have said hang on a minute i was going
02:29:46.700 alt-right i don't want to go all right i don't want to go far right and part of that's jordan
02:29:50.800 peterson and people on the left who said i don't want to go far left i'm i'm liberal i'm still going
02:29:56.500 to stay liberal but there's a whole bunch about him that pulled me out and move me towards transcendent
02:30:01.260 values responsibility right um responsibility more than and humility that was and humility right
02:30:08.040 and love well good and community well that's what we're trying to do with this conversation
02:30:13.140 that's right it's responsible humility on both our parts on all of our parts is to engage in the
02:30:18.900 discussion of good faith and see if we can figure out how to do this better moving forward jonathan's
02:30:23.100 been insufferable but i think we did a good job on that front all right thank you sir thanks thanks
02:30:28.780 great and it's definitely a tribute i think in the end it is a tribute to you that you're even
02:30:34.840 willing to do this i agree we appreciate it yeah well i'm more terrified of the alternative than of
02:30:39.440 the conversation and that's definitely the case so all right thank you all who are watching and
02:30:45.780 listening and uh appreciate the time and attention and to the daily wire crew um that's also much
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