The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast - 286. Navy SEAL Mindset ｜ Congressman Dan Crenshaw

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00:00:30.000 Hello, everyone. I'm pleased today to be talking to Congressman Dan Crenshaw, who I've had the privilege to get to know.

00:00:53.940 Over the last couple of years now, most recently, Congressman Crenshaw set up an event for me in Washington,

00:01:01.580 where I had the privilege of speaking to a large group of Republicans concentrating on policymaking about the possibility of generating a positive message going forward

00:01:11.520 as a bulwark, let's say, against the possibility of a kind of reactionary populism, which is not optimal, unfortunate for everyone concerned.

00:01:24.040 Dan and I talked after that about doing another podcast, concentrating on political issues, particularly focusing on the danger posed by the radicals on the left and the radicals on the right.

00:01:35.580 He's had a lot of experience with the unpleasant radicals on the right.

00:01:39.380 I thought that would be really interesting.

00:01:41.260 But over the last few days, I've also read his book, new book, Fortitude.

00:01:50.060 Something Dan knows something about, by the way.

00:01:52.420 Fortitude, American Resilience in the Age of Outrage.

00:01:56.540 And I really liked the book.

00:01:58.060 I thought it was a lovely balance of story, personal story, concept, encouragement, clear delineation of a political and sometimes a theological philosophy, psychological philosophy.

00:02:15.080 So I took a lot of notes.

00:02:16.520 And I thought what I would do after I read Dan's bio is walk through his book with him.

00:02:22.580 And there's a lot of places where our thinking dovetails, I suppose, which is why it's easy for us to get along.

00:02:31.120 And I think we could have a very productive discussion as a consequence.

00:02:34.640 So I'll start with the bio.

00:02:36.300 Originally from the Houston area, Representative Dan Crenshaw is a sixth-generation Texan.

00:02:42.420 In 2006, he graduated from Tufts University, where he earned his Naval Officer Commission through Navy ROTC.

00:02:51.340 Following graduation, he immediately reported to SEAL training in Coronado, California, where he met his future wife, Taha.

00:03:01.040 After graduating SEAL training, Dan deployed to Fallujah, Iraq, to join SEAL Team 3, his first of five deployments overseas.

00:03:11.380 Dan was medically retired in September of 2016 as a lieutenant commander after serving 10 years in the SEAL teams.

00:03:20.240 He left service with two bronze stars, one with Valor, the Purple Heart and the Navy Commendation Medal with Valor, among others.

00:03:30.680 Soon after, Dan completed his master's in public administration at the Harvard Kennedy School of Government.

00:03:38.620 He then returned to Houston, where his community had been devastated by Hurricane Harvey.

00:03:43.920 Inspired by their subsequent volunteer work, Dan and his wife, Tara, decided that the best way to serve the people of Texas would be in elected office.

00:03:54.760 And so, in November 2018, Congressman Crenshaw was elected to represent Texas' second congressional district.

00:04:05.120 In Congress, he serves on a number of important committees, including the House Energy and Commerce and the House Select Committee on the Climate Crisis,

00:04:14.960 as well as the Health and Environment and Climate Change subcommittees.

00:04:19.500 So, Congressman Crenshaw, thank you very much for agreeing to talk to me again.

00:04:25.400 It's much appreciated, and kudos on your book.

00:04:28.540 How is the book doing, by the way?

00:04:30.760 Pleasure to be on, Jordan. Appreciate it.

00:04:32.900 It did really well.

00:04:35.280 It came out, it's a little old at this point.

00:04:38.040 It came out in 2020, and it did quite well.

00:04:41.920 Um, because it wasn't a political book.

00:04:45.680 I think, um, there's definitely a ceiling for politicians to write a book, as far as how many, a ceiling as far as how many they'll sell.

00:04:52.500 Yeah.

00:04:52.900 I think we did much better than that, simply because it's not a political book.

00:04:57.380 And it's not even a seal book.

00:04:59.500 Um, it's a little mix of all of those things.

00:05:01.460 But mostly it's a, uh, like you mentioned earlier, it's an ethics book.

00:05:05.320 It's an empowerment book, it's a self-help book, it's lessons in fortitude, and it also happened to come out at a time right in the beginning of the pandemic, which was, uh, I think a prime time for those kind of lessons.

00:05:17.180 So, it did pretty well.

00:05:18.720 Yeah, well, the book starts with your discussion of both victimization culture and outrage culture.

00:05:24.800 And you, you make a moral case, I would say, against both.

00:05:28.720 Uh, and also, I would also attempt to do a diagnosis of why this has become front and center in some sense.

00:05:38.720 And so, on the victimization front, you, you make a case that, in some ways, the sense of victimization and the sense of oppression and, and, uh, is opposite to the, to a proper sense of gratitude.

00:05:58.720 And I thought that was extremely interesting because, obviously, there are situations where people feel as if they're being oppressed justifiably.

00:06:13.540 But you can make much of that in a way that's not productive.

00:06:16.760 And by dwelling on that, especially if it's not deserved, let's say, you also deprive yourself of the values of duty and responsibility.

00:06:27.960 And that's a way to undermine the meaning of your life in a most fundamental sense.

00:06:32.880 You deprive yourself of, of, you know, what's the word I'm looking for?

00:06:40.620 You deprive yourself of, of any ability to overcome it, right?

00:06:44.100 You deprive, you deprive yourself of agency.

00:06:45.700 And that's, that's a devastating thing psychologically for someone if they're deprived of the tools and the abilities to move forward past, whether that trauma is real trauma, whether that victimization is justified, as you said, because, I mean, there's two types.

00:07:02.900 There's the narratives that get built in our society about victimization, uh, which can, it can certainly be debated whether it's real or not.

00:07:10.760 And then there's true victimization and true victimhood, or at least being a victim of some kind of injustice.

00:07:17.080 But victimhood, I would say, is a bit more of a mindset.

00:07:20.320 And you, you can either live that way, or you can, or you can decide to overcome it and decide that you indeed are in charge of, of, of your own destiny.

00:07:30.120 Yeah, well, there's a difference, I think.

00:07:32.340 There's a difference between being a seeker for justice and construing yourself as a victim.

00:07:38.460 You know, if you're a victim, in some sense, you're owed something, you're owed redress.

00:07:44.820 But if you're a fighter for justice, then your decision is something like that you're going to move forward to help yourself and others, despite the injustices of the world.

00:07:58.380 That's a better way of thinking about it.

00:07:59.700 So you get your agency that way without falling into that pit of envy that victimization also seems to produce.

00:08:08.460 You also have to define justice correctly.

00:08:10.580 And I think that's where our society has qualms with one another, is this redefining of the word justice and what injustice actually is.

00:08:22.020 And so I think there is a classical definition of justice.

00:08:25.220 And it usually sounds something like this.

00:08:27.540 Maybe it's a violation of what we would consider due process.

00:08:30.820 And we all have a pretty good idea of what due process is based on English common law and our own constitution and a lot of court precedent.

00:08:41.880 Another way to define injustice might be the granting of some kind of status for any other reason besides merit.

00:08:52.500 Right?

00:08:52.660 Maybe it's heritage.

00:08:54.800 Maybe it's the good old boys club. 0.58

00:08:56.940 Whatever it is, that would feel like an injustice, and you'd be right about that.

00:09:00.960 Fundamentally, injustice would be infringing on someone's rights.

00:09:05.000 Person A, infringing on the rights of person B, on their life, liberty, or property. 0.78

00:09:09.280 That would be certainly an American classical way of defining an injustice.

00:09:14.580 And infringing on especially inalienable rights, these negative rights.

00:09:20.420 The left does not define justice that way.

00:09:22.840 The left has come to define justice a very different way.

00:09:26.760 For instance, instead of negative rights, proposing that it's an injustice if you are not getting positive rights.

00:09:33.260 And by positive rights, they mean services.

00:09:35.540 They mean that there's an injustice against you because you don't make the same money as someone else.

00:09:39.960 There's an injustice against you because your house is smaller than someone else.

00:09:42.780 There's an injustice against you because your health care is too expensive.

00:09:47.700 They consider these things injustices.

00:09:49.500 Now, it may be the case that we want everyone to have health care and affordable health care for that.

00:09:55.020 But that doesn't mean it's an injustice.

00:09:56.460 And when you start to use those morally fraught words, you make people really crazy.

00:10:01.580 And you go down a path where you're demanding so-called rights for someone.

00:10:07.860 And that necessarily involves coercion.

00:10:11.780 Coercion is a pretty bad path to go down because you then have to literally infringe on someone's rights in order to provide someone else the same kind of services.

00:10:18.960 So while it seems like splitting hairs, this sort of redefining injustice, it's actually pretty important and it has pretty serious consequences.

00:10:26.560 Yeah, well, if your definition of justice is predicated on something like a notion of equity, no one can have more than anyone else or it's unfair, it's unjust.

00:10:36.720 The net consequence of that is no one gets to have anything at all because there's not even a hypothetical way that we could distribute all things equally to everyone at once.

00:10:47.720 That's literally impossible.

00:10:49.040 And so it seems to me that the price of some prosperity for most is that some are more prosperous than others.

00:10:56.620 And then hopefully to the degree that that's also just, some of the reason for that excess of prosperity is also a consequence of, let's call it, effort and ability.

00:11:08.020 And that's a form of justice too.

00:11:10.100 It certainly is.

00:11:12.560 And like in the book and when I'm looking at this, these victimhood narratives that are so pervasive and how that's related to outrage culture, first of all, feeling like a victim makes you outraged.

00:11:21.980 I think that's, that's a pretty simple path to draw there.

00:11:24.420 But I think what's worse about what we've seen recently is the elevation of victimhood to where it's, you know, you, you, you talk about heroic archetypes a lot.

00:11:34.120 I took a lot of influence from you actually in that chapter when I, when I talked about who is your hero and, and, and what does self-improvement look like?

00:11:41.800 Well, it looks like copying people who did really well and maybe not in everything they do.

00:11:46.960 Look, if I want to be a great singer, a great pop star, maybe I'll look at Taylor Swift, but I'm not going to look at her for literally anything else.

00:11:54.420 So it's, it's identifying the attributes that make someone successful within a given hierarchy.

00:11:59.280 That's, that's fundamentally what defining your, your heroes looks like in a very practical way.

00:12:03.480 And so I fleshed that out.

00:12:05.160 But what concerns me is that this elevation of victimhood and, you know, Jussie Smollett was a great example of that because he found it so compelling to pretend to be a victim that he would actually create this whole crazy conspiracy,

00:12:17.960 hires two people to beat him up just so he can claim that these, you know, MAGA people beat him up.

00:12:25.300 You know, it's a pretty shocking story, but what's more shocking is the, the underlying incentives that are prevalent in our culture.

00:12:32.400 That's what actually scares me.

00:12:34.740 And I see it on the right now too.

00:12:37.220 When I was writing this book, I didn't see it as much on the right.

00:12:39.300 Um, since I've written the book, I do see it on the right.

00:12:42.660 And I don't want to lay out some, some sequence of events for you.

00:12:45.140 And you tell me who you think it applies to. 0.99

00:12:46.780 So step number one, say something very provocative, crazy, mean, stupid, whatever, but say it and say it really loud. 0.99

00:12:55.660 Step two, watch as everyone reacts to what you just said, and then feign disbelief that they would be so obsessed with you, 0.99

00:13:02.080 that they would, that why are they talking about you?

00:13:04.360 Number three, claim victimhood because they're attacking you, right?

00:13:08.900 They're the ones paying attention to you and you're just trying to, you know, speak truth to power or whatever.

00:13:14.720 Then use that victimhood as a club to wield and a tool to beat back your opponents.

00:13:20.520 And maybe that's through a fundraising email.

00:13:22.280 Maybe the person who said the provocative things, a politician, or maybe, maybe they're a podcaster.

00:13:26.840 Maybe they, they, they have an influencer page on Instagram and now they get more engagement because they're being attacked

00:13:32.740 because they said something provocative and crazy.

00:13:35.900 That's a sequence of events that you can see on both sides, right?

00:13:41.000 If that sounds a lot like AOC, you're right.

00:13:43.120 If it sounds a lot like Marjorie Taylor Greene, you're right, because they both do it.

00:13:47.020 And I think they're quite self-aware of it, but it's a scam.

00:13:50.620 Yeah, it's a claim of unearned moral virtue.

00:13:53.280 And, you know, I've been thinking about this a lot.

00:13:55.240 I thought about it again, reading your book.

00:13:57.160 And so, we all compete for reputation.

00:14:03.060 And that competition can take place many ways.

00:14:06.680 The proper way for it to take place is that we compete on grounds of productivity and generosity.

00:14:13.040 It's something like that.

00:14:14.760 And then, if we establish a very positive reputation as a consequence of our productivity and generosity,

00:14:20.740 then we're stably placed in a functional social hierarchy.

00:14:25.940 And we're surrounded by people who will trade with us and will respect us and will treat us properly.

00:14:33.220 And as a consequence, our negative emotion can be controlled.

00:14:38.380 So, imagine you're virtuous.

00:14:40.420 And so, now you have a stellar reputation.

00:14:42.740 And the consequence of that is that your nervous system views your positioning in the hierarchy as a consequence of that reputation

00:14:48.640 and decreases your stress.

00:14:51.360 So, then, when you go after someone's key beliefs, the things they stand for, hypothetically,

00:14:58.440 you're threatening their reputation and then you threaten their position in the hierarchy

00:15:02.300 and then you threaten their emotional regulation.

00:15:04.780 That's the chain.

00:15:06.440 The problem with all that is it can be gamed.

00:15:09.880 And because there's nothing more important than reputation,

00:15:13.800 and by the way, we pay attention to people who have a good reputation,

00:15:17.380 because there's nothing more important than reputation,

00:15:20.080 people are motivated and willing to take shortcuts to attaining it.

00:15:26.620 And that's the, yeah, that's the issue with virtue signaling.

00:15:29.900 And so, you say, well, you can point to an injustice suffered on your behalf,

00:15:33.380 and that elicits people's sympathy.

00:15:36.000 And then you can claim to be a moral crusader, whether or not that's true.

00:15:39.920 And then you adopt the cloak of reputation,

00:15:44.700 and then you ratchet yourself up in a manipulative manner up the hierarchy of social security and esteem.

00:15:54.300 And that's the narcissism, Machiavellian, psychopath game.

00:15:59.040 And it's a game that threatens societies all the time.

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00:17:40.400 I think so, and I see it in politics quite often.

00:17:46.080 I'm amazed by some of the people I thought I was close with who betrayed me or turned on me for the smallest of gains.

00:17:54.160 I mean, you create an enemy for life for the smallest of gains.

00:17:58.440 I would almost be more understanding of it if they gain something huge from doing what they did to me, and I can point out various cases.

00:18:04.800 It's just unnecessary, but it's the incentive structure, unfortunately, in politics, because that kind of conflict gains people's attention.

00:18:16.760 And attention is currency in today's political atmosphere because we have unfortunately devolved into sort of this Jerry Springer, rock and sock and politics.

00:18:25.200 It's tabloid politics.

00:18:26.340 It's this news of the day politics, as opposed to taking a step back and arguing over some very fundamental differences and ideas and governing philosophies.

00:18:35.700 There are some proper debates to be had, and look, sometimes they do get had, but it's not what people are interested in.

00:18:43.000 If these debates get had at all, it's because the people you elect are actually doing their job in committees and going through the hard work, but it's not glamorous, and they get no credit for it.

00:18:56.340 The people who get credit are the ones who don't bother with any of that boring policy stuff, but who instead come out and yell and scream on the House floor about something or other and gain a lot of attention, and that's currency.

00:19:06.360 Yeah, well, it's very difficult to keep that sort of the attention that outrage can generate.

00:19:13.860 It's very difficult to keep that under control, especially when it can spread so rapidly, let's say, on social media systems.

00:19:19.920 Now, in your book, you talk about the alternative to outrage and victimization.

00:19:26.800 You talked about outrage as something like a combination of wrath, which is a cardinal sin, and envy, which is a cardinal sin, and pride, which is a cardinal sin.

00:19:37.920 It attracts a lot of attention.

00:19:39.940 It's what elevates you morally in the face of your victimization.

00:19:43.980 And you segue from that into, well, into your experience in Iraq and the terrible medical problems, the battle injuries that you sustained as a consequence.

00:19:59.260 And you talked a fair bit in there about how it was that you were able to not construe yourself as a victim.

00:20:07.340 And one of the things I found so striking in that section was the credit that you gave to your mother.

00:20:18.220 And the example she sent you, you know, you talked a little earlier about finding heroes or about identifying your heroes.

00:20:23.960 It's like one of the things you can do to identify a hero is not so much seek out for someone that you'd like to emulate in a voluntary way,

00:20:32.840 but to watch yourself and see who you involuntarily admire just because of the way they are.

00:20:40.120 And you make a very, you make a repeated case that that was the situation with your mother.

00:20:45.720 So maybe, if you wouldn't mind, you could talk a little bit about that and then about how that experience shaped your ability to deal with catastrophe in your own life.

00:20:56.580 Well, you know, the title of that chapter is Perspectives from Darkness.

00:21:02.120 And I mean the word darkness quite literally in this case because I was blind from the explosion.

00:21:07.820 This was in 2012 in Afghanistan.

00:21:10.260 We were on a sort of a unplanned mission.

00:21:14.900 It's not really worth getting into exactly what we were doing and why we were there,

00:21:18.120 but it was Afghanistan and it was Helmand province.

00:21:20.660 So you can imagine it's a bad place.

00:21:22.100 And there's a lot of IEDs.

00:21:24.080 There's IEDs everywhere in the southern Kandahar and Helmand regions.

00:21:29.080 And one of my interpreters stepped on an IED right in front of me.

00:21:32.080 He got all four of his limbs blown off right away.

00:21:35.560 And I got knocked on the ground.

00:21:36.760 I didn't quite know what happened.

00:21:37.860 I immediately felt for my legs so that I knew that I wasn't the one who had stepped on it,

00:21:42.600 but I knew I was hit with something.

00:21:44.320 I could hear him moaning in this.

00:21:47.040 You know, people think that because they watch war movies

00:21:50.480 and when somebody gets their guts blown out or an arm blown off or something,

00:21:53.760 a lot of times in war movies, the person is screaming.

00:21:56.820 It's not really accurate.

00:21:58.060 It's far more accurate when the person is sort of walking around in a daze,

00:22:01.480 kind of like moaning.

00:22:02.680 And it's a much deeper pain.

00:22:04.580 You can't scream.

00:22:05.280 You can't possibly have the energy to scream.

00:22:07.500 It's a much deeper moaning, groaning sound that you just never forget.

00:22:12.740 I've heard it a few times.

00:22:13.720 Um, and so I heard that and I put it together what had happened and, um, nothing you can do

00:22:21.520 at that point.

00:22:22.100 I actually was in complete denial.

00:22:24.100 I thought I just had dirt in my eyes, so I couldn't see anything, but I didn't have a

00:22:28.220 lot of pain in my face in hindsight, just because it would have been so numb.

00:22:31.420 Um, um, but I had a severe pain throughout the rest of my body because it was, you know,

00:22:36.040 I, frankly, the brunt of the blast was lower to the ground.

00:22:39.700 And so it hit the lower extremities of my body much harder.

00:22:42.960 Um, just for anyone who's curious, I was wearing Kevlar underwear.

00:22:46.140 So, you know, we, I was miraculously okay there, but, uh, but heavy, heavy scarring everywhere

00:22:51.840 else.

00:22:52.580 Um, and for some reason just never believed I was blind.

00:22:57.300 And even when I woke up, never really believed I was going to be blind.

00:23:01.160 They told me the bad news, of course, when I woke up about five days later, um, they

00:23:06.360 put me to be clear, they put me into an induced coma on the, on the aircraft, on the medevac

00:23:11.080 helicopter, right when I left that site.

00:23:13.580 So I was conscious throughout the whole thing.

00:23:15.160 I remember it pretty well.

00:23:16.780 Uh, but I was gone, I was out for five days after that woke up in Germany and, you know,

00:23:23.200 got all the news, but for some reason kept the spirit.

00:23:25.960 And then, and then there's, and then there's that next step, which is, well, I guess it's

00:23:30.460 time to start feeling sorry for yourself because your life has changed pretty dramatically.

00:23:35.160 And, you know, this, this kind of self self sense of self-pity is it's like a warm, cozy

00:23:40.500 blanket.

00:23:40.860 You can wrap yourself in it and you can think about how everybody else on the team may be

00:23:46.560 screwed up or how maybe the, the mission itself was screwed up.

00:23:49.260 Maybe you can turn it into some, some statement about foreign policy and endless wars.

00:23:54.600 And there's, there's no, there's no end of reasons that you could claim victimhood.

00:23:59.520 And I've unfortunately watched some veterans get into politics and do exactly that, but

00:24:04.740 it's pretty unhealthy.

00:24:05.920 And I can't imagine being happy doing that.

00:24:08.300 And, and if I had to look to one person who had gone through severe hardship throughout

00:24:12.200 her life, it was my mother.

00:24:13.160 And she got cancer, breast cancer when I was five years old, and she eventually lost that

00:24:19.100 battle when I was 10.

00:24:21.220 But in hindsight, I never saw her complain.

00:24:24.340 I never saw her cry to us about it.

00:24:26.180 She never lost her temper with us when she really should have in hindsight, because I'm

00:24:30.020 not sure we were the greatest, but the amount of grace and grit that she demonstrated, it

00:24:36.660 had always stuck with me.

00:24:37.800 Maybe it got me through other hard times too.

00:24:39.520 Maybe it was always subconscious.

00:24:40.580 I'm not sure in any case, it's, it's a model.

00:24:44.540 And what I encourage people to do is if maybe you don't have, it's unlikely that you have

00:24:48.260 that model in your life to that extreme extent and thank God for it, because that would really

00:24:53.120 suck if everyone had that particular experience.

00:24:56.540 But you do have stories, you know, because again, there's real heroes that, you know, from 0.85

00:25:01.980 your own life, there's real heroes from history.

00:25:04.840 And then there's fake, you know, make believe characters.

00:25:09.020 And I mentioned Superman as, as one of those make believe characters, he's like this, he

00:25:13.240 never says or does anything wrong.

00:25:15.400 And for some reason you're drawn to him.

00:25:17.240 And then you have to start asking yourself, why am I drawn to this person?

00:25:21.020 And maybe that person is your boss or a leader in the military or Superman, but you're drawn

00:25:26.220 to them for some reason.

00:25:27.100 And it's worth doing some introspection and thinking to yourself, what are the traits that

00:25:31.260 this person exhibits that I can emulate and be better as a result?

00:25:35.500 Right, well, and we should, we should point out here too.

00:25:38.460 Well, that's also the case.

00:25:39.860 Like, we should make a very clear distinction here that often when people are embittered

00:25:48.240 and resentful and feel like they're victims, it's because really awful things have happened

00:25:53.240 to them.

00:25:53.840 Now, not always, but often.

00:25:56.280 And so then the question is, well, if you're in a situation and something really awful is

00:26:00.960 happened to you or has happened to you, then, well, why shouldn't you feel like a victim?

00:26:06.960 And is there a better alternative?

00:26:09.140 And part of what you were trying to lay out in this part of the book is what those better

00:26:13.800 alternatives are.

00:26:14.920 So part of looking for that hero is to find out from someone else's example, in your case

00:26:20.660 it was your mother, but these other sources that you described of people who were in a

00:26:26.600 sort of hell in an undeniable sense, but who chose in a very real way to make it as good

00:26:33.620 as it could possibly be given the circumstances.

00:26:36.400 And so they had to turn to sources of power, let's say, and strength and fortitude and resilience

00:26:42.880 that weren't in some sense obviously associated with the catastrophe.

00:26:48.520 I mean, in your mother's case, it's a pretty tragic situation.

00:26:52.880 She's a young mother, she has young kids, now she has breast cancer and she fights a 0.96

00:26:58.100 losing battle over a period of five years.

00:27:01.120 That's pretty bad.

00:27:03.300 And then you have to ask yourself, given that that's obviously pretty bad, how is it even

00:27:09.040 possible that someone could handle that with not only grace and courage, but the kind of

00:27:14.300 grace and courage that leaves their children with an un, what would you call it, an immovable

00:27:21.660 sense of the ability to prevail in the face of the deepest adversity.

00:27:26.240 I mean, that's really something.

00:27:27.380 You said here, thousands have come before you and they did just fine.

00:27:34.240 So quit your complaining.

00:27:36.000 And it's not because you have nothing to complain about.

00:27:38.260 That's not the case.

00:27:39.260 It's that that's not the right approach.

00:27:41.560 The fact is, and this is such an optimistic fact, as well as a judgment in some sense.

00:27:48.240 The fact is that if someone else can do it, so can you.

00:27:54.380 And that's something, right?

00:27:55.400 If you're reading about the great heroes in history, people who are in these terrible situations

00:27:59.260 and you see someone rise to the occasion, and then you can say, well, that was a person

00:28:05.700 who did that.

00:28:06.420 And I'm a person.

00:28:07.160 And so maybe I have that capacity, too, even though I don't know how to approach it.

00:28:11.520 And then some of the rest of your book, much of the rest of your book, I would say, in

00:28:14.740 some sense is a guide to help people figure out how they could approach that.

00:28:19.240 One of the things you point out first is, well, pick, notice who you admire.

00:28:25.900 And then maybe try consciously practicing becoming like that.

00:28:31.580 But you said, I had many defensible reasons for bitterness and grievance after getting

00:28:39.320 blown up and losing an eye.

00:28:41.620 Well, you were face down after your surgery, right?

00:28:44.500 You were face down and immobilized for six weeks.

00:28:48.460 You said you couldn't even move your neck because otherwise you might go blind, which

00:28:52.320 is like a good reason not to move your neck.

00:28:54.400 And you were all blown up on the front, in your chest and so forth.

00:29:01.380 And so you're also laying on these wounds.

00:29:04.360 And so how in the world did you manage that?

00:29:07.860 You had your wife.

00:29:08.940 That was obviously extremely helpful.

00:29:12.060 Well, yeah, I'll talk about that.

00:29:15.120 It's, yeah, six weeks was a long time.

00:29:18.380 And the reason you're lying on your stomach, you have to be face down.

00:29:21.960 It doesn't necessarily mean you have to lie on your stomach.

00:29:23.840 You can, in theory, walk around.

00:29:25.600 You just have to be looking down the whole time.

00:29:28.260 It's not like your eye will pop out if you take a break.

00:29:31.260 And you're allowed to take a couple of breaks.

00:29:33.240 And naturally sleeping, it's very difficult to do this.

00:29:36.560 And so you're going to roll over.

00:29:39.240 The reason you do it is because when you do retina repairs, they need to put a band-aid

00:29:44.400 of sorts on your retina.

00:29:45.860 Now, you can't stick a bandage on your retina, of course.

00:29:47.960 So what they do is they stick a gas bubble in your eye.

00:29:49.980 And you have to face down so that gas bubble presses against your retina, holds it in place.

00:29:56.660 It's quite the surgery.

00:29:59.360 And in fact, I had a much worse surgery a year and a half ago.

00:30:01.660 I went blind again because my retina fully detached this time due to the scar tissue from

00:30:05.800 that earlier blast.

00:30:06.760 And so, bam, I was right back on my stomach.

00:30:09.020 Literally easier this time because I didn't have all the other wounds you're referring to.

00:30:13.440 And frankly, it was a nice break from politics, if I'm being perfectly right.

00:30:19.480 Yeah, it was really the only time I fully detached, so to speak.

00:30:24.780 So I want to hit one thing you said just one more time because it's important as a foundation.

00:30:30.300 And that's what I try to do in the book is foundations are perspective and these heroes.

00:30:34.720 And from there, now it's time to start giving lessons on how to be those heroes.

00:30:38.500 But the perspective part is important.

00:30:39.980 And that quote you read is important.

00:30:42.280 And I say it in speeches a lot, too, if I'm giving sort of a non-political speech.

00:30:45.760 I'll say, look, here's the truth.

00:30:47.680 Whatever you're going through now, you've probably been through something more difficult, so deal

00:30:50.680 with this.

00:30:51.780 Now, it may be true that you've actually never been through something more difficult.

00:30:55.620 But here's another truth.

00:30:56.500 Somebody else has been through something more difficult, and they've dealt with it a lot

00:30:59.360 better than you're dealing with it now.

00:31:01.740 That's a hard truth.

00:31:04.000 Yeah, but it's also an optimistic truth, right?

00:31:08.520 Because when you see someone in the depths of genuine suffering, hopefully what you're

00:31:13.140 trying to do is to throw a lifeline.

00:31:15.060 And one possible lifeline is compassion.

00:31:18.220 And that's probably the right lifeline to throw an infant, you know, who's suffering.

00:31:22.780 That sort of overwhelming compassion.

00:31:24.600 But for someone who is an adult or making progress towards being an adult, the lifeline that might

00:31:32.140 be thrown is there's something within you that would let you be more than you are and

00:31:37.020 much more and maybe enough more so that you could actually deal with this suffering so

00:31:41.680 it didn't turn into hell and take everything along with it.

00:31:44.940 And that's...

00:31:45.520 There isn't anything more optimistic than that.

00:31:47.300 You say something here, which I think is extremely...

00:31:50.380 I'm going to read something from your book here.

00:31:54.040 It is true that character is to some extent innate.

00:31:59.320 I would say what that does is that it provides each of us with a range of talents and a range

00:32:04.380 of temptations.

00:32:06.420 And it's something like that.

00:32:07.680 So it's the hand we're dealt.

00:32:09.300 And there's certainly a genetic element to that.

00:32:11.840 Our genetic makeup imbues in us certain proclivities.

00:32:14.640 But it is as true that character is mostly a consequence of choices.

00:32:21.300 Strangely enough, we all make them and we should make them deliberately with the knowledge

00:32:27.080 that these choices are part of our responsibility toward a purpose other than our own selfish aims.

00:32:34.120 That responsibility is to your family, friends, community, and country.

00:32:38.800 That's something that conservatives put forward as a pathway to virtue.

00:32:43.900 And what's so interesting about that, as far as I'm concerned, as an antidote to atomistic

00:32:48.580 liberalism, let's say, that hyper-privileges the individual, is that it's definitely been

00:32:54.440 my observation as a clinical psychologist that in the depths of misery, the capability

00:32:59.980 that you have to be of service to other people, your family, your friends, your community,

00:33:05.380 your country, that's actually a saving grace under such circumstances.

00:33:09.520 You know, and that people really find a deep and abiding meaning in that service.

00:33:14.400 So it's not just finger-wagging and the pointing towards duty.

00:33:19.520 It's like, no, no, you don't understand that if you're in desperate straits, if your life

00:33:23.700 has fallen apart, if you're nihilistic and miserable, and maybe you have your bloody reasons,

00:33:28.460 because maybe you do, that's still the case that if you step outside yourself and you try

00:33:33.640 to make the lives of other people better, that's the best possible thing that you can

00:33:37.560 do for yourself.

00:33:39.020 And so I really like that.

00:33:41.020 It's defining, you know, what we, what Thomas Jefferson wrote in the Declaration of Independence,

00:33:45.640 this right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.

00:33:49.780 And, you know, those are, those words get thrown around a lot.

00:33:52.980 And some people might say, well, pursue my happiness.

00:33:54.860 That means pursue whatever ends I want, right?

00:33:57.200 Pursue whatever, it gives me that short-term gratification, pursue whatever makes me just

00:34:03.960 feel good.

00:34:05.220 But there's a different, but I don't think that's what, right.

00:34:08.140 And I don't think that's what the founders meant.

00:34:11.080 I think there's a lot of evidence for that because what they meant was the pursuing of

00:34:15.660 purpose.

00:34:16.820 You know, the idea that, that, that some sort of purpose in your life is what, what makes

00:34:20.420 you happy and that, and that there's, there, there is a given set of traditions and social

00:34:26.000 interactions and, and standards of living that genuinely make people happier.

00:34:33.340 One of those you mentioned is doing good for others, some kind of, kind of service,

00:34:37.460 having, having some kind of responsibility to, to feel useful.

00:34:41.780 So it's, it's not, we rely on the Bible a lot for these, this, this moral framework,

00:34:47.400 but you don't have to, if you don't want to, because you, you can look to basic psychology,

00:34:52.540 I think, to derive the same conclusions.

00:34:54.400 There's, it just happens to be a lot of truth.

00:34:56.380 Well, one of the, one of the, one of the conclusions that you can draw, and we know this psychologically

00:35:02.780 and psychophysiologically now, we know it neuropharmacologically, it's known from multiple

00:35:09.520 dimensions simultaneously that the system that produces happiness, let's say in the founder's

00:35:15.780 sense, produces that emotion in relationship to the observation of movement towards a valued

00:35:22.560 goal.

00:35:24.560 And so, so you can derive some conclusions from that.

00:35:27.300 The first is that, without a goal, there's no happiness, by definition, because happiness

00:35:33.080 marks movement towards a valued goal.

00:35:36.020 The next is, well, the higher the goal, the more value there is in the observation of movement

00:35:46.060 towards it.

00:35:46.900 And so, out of that, you might ask, well, then, what's the highest goal?

00:35:50.760 Because why don't we go for that?

00:35:53.040 Well, then you could say, well, you should do your best for the best.

00:36:00.840 You might say, well, that's just to make me hedonically happy.

00:36:03.420 It's like, well, wait a second, you know, cocaine will work for that, because India actually even 1.00

00:36:08.820 activates this system.

00:36:09.980 But what about tomorrow and next week and next month?

00:36:14.520 And so, the problem with hedonism as a goal is, first of all, it vanishes when you're suffering.

00:36:20.380 But even failing that, if you're serving yourself hedonically in the narrow sense, it's just about

00:36:28.920 me and my pleasure.

00:36:29.740 It's like, okay, which you?

00:36:31.520 Today's you?

00:36:32.300 Tomorrow's you?

00:36:33.060 Next week's you?

00:36:33.920 Next month's you?

00:36:35.580 What about next year?

00:36:36.660 Five years from now?

00:36:37.720 10 years from now, you're going to lead a hedonic and dissolute life, and what are you going

00:36:41.960 to be, a burnt-out shell and a wreck, a dismal wreck in 10 years?

00:36:46.640 Because that's what'll happen.

00:36:48.360 And so, if you don't construe yourself as a community stretched out across time, then

00:36:54.080 you're not even serving yourself.

00:36:55.800 And if you do construe yourself as a community stretched across time, then serving other people

00:37:01.000 and serving yourself turn out to be exactly the same thing.

00:37:04.400 I have a question for you, as I was hearing you go through this.

00:37:07.720 And maybe I would have liked to maybe flesh this out in the book, but I didn't.

00:37:14.480 Well, I'm also not a therapist, so probably best that I didn't try.

00:37:17.780 But how do you advise people on how much they should give in to that pleasure-seeking, that

00:37:24.640 short-term gratification?

00:37:26.340 Because it does seem to me that just for the sake of sanity, there has to be some balance

00:37:30.060 there.

00:37:30.260 It's very difficult to be perfect.

00:37:33.980 Well, it's a mistake.

00:37:35.400 And you know, one of the things, I just did a seminar, I just did a course on the Sermon

00:37:39.840 on the Mount, and Christ in one of the sections of that sermon, he says to people that you

00:37:47.840 shouldn't lose your saltiness, you shouldn't lose your savor, and you're the salt of the

00:37:54.420 earth, and without that salt, everything loses its flavor.

00:37:57.720 And salt is a preservative, and it's a spice, and that's often conceptualized, that phrase,

00:38:05.120 as referring to the salt of the earth, you know, the solid, reliable types who bear all

00:38:10.580 burdens.

00:38:11.100 But that is not what it means.

00:38:12.420 I looked at a lot of different translations.

00:38:14.220 I talked to a lot of people about that verse.

00:38:15.960 Really what it means is, well, there should be some spiciness and unpredictability and 1.00

00:38:22.620 humor about you, and there should be some play in the system, right?

00:38:27.340 Because that's what stops you from just being the narrow, dead, past, letter of the law with

00:38:32.960 no spirit.

00:38:34.020 There should be some snake inside the tree, right?

00:38:36.860 There should be some fire inside the bush.

00:38:39.140 Those are all ways of construing that that are symbolically equivalent.

00:38:43.120 There should be some dynamism in you, and a fair bit of that's associated with, well,

00:38:48.380 enthusiasm.

00:38:49.200 That's fun, but enthusiasm means to be imbued with the spirit of God.

00:38:53.100 That's why people like comedians so much, too, because that's what they do.

00:38:57.080 And so you have to leaven the duty with humor, and your book does a lovely job of that, too,

00:39:02.540 because your book, which is a very conservative book in the best possible way, and is a call

00:39:08.700 to duty and responsibility.

00:39:09.940 But you constantly return to themes of both stoicism and humor, which are tied together

00:39:17.040 in some sense, you know?

00:39:18.380 I was just in Newfoundland for the last week doing a documentary there, and Newfoundland's

00:39:23.420 a rough rock, and it's beautiful and harsh, and the people there are tough and resilient,

00:39:28.840 man, because they had to be.

00:39:30.800 And Newfies have a great sense of humor, and they're always making fun. 0.99

00:39:35.460 And that's a necessary leaven, right, that ability to deal with serious matters with a

00:39:48.100 light touch.

00:39:49.680 And it's something I'm trying to learn to do more and more, even in the most serious of

00:39:53.640 conversations, you know, too.

00:39:55.260 Because if you're a master, you've got both.

00:39:57.240 You've got that light touch and that sense of humor.

00:39:59.540 You really see that in military people who've been through rough situations.

00:40:02.760 I was going to say that the best kind of humor is dark military humor.

00:40:06.680 And it's, it is not for public consumption.

00:40:10.160 It is.

00:40:10.740 Yeah.

00:40:11.140 Because it's everything that it's supposed to be.

00:40:13.140 It's offensive.

00:40:14.020 It's, and it's, it's dark in ways you can't even comprehend.

00:40:19.720 But yeah, unless you've been in that, unless you've been in that darkness.

00:40:23.400 So you said here to let, let's go for another quote here.

00:40:26.900 Throughout your life, this is very practical advice, too.

00:40:29.840 And I think it's very wise from a therapeutic perspective.

00:40:32.880 Throughout your life, you have people you look up to.

00:40:37.880 Okay, so let's think about that.

00:40:39.520 You look up.

00:40:40.300 What does that mean?

00:40:41.140 Why up?

00:40:42.440 Well, up is something that beckons from a distance.

00:40:45.200 It's like a light on a hill.

00:40:46.560 And we automatically assume that those who we admire are people we look up to.

00:40:52.360 So that specifies a distance and a direction.

00:40:56.200 And it's uphill.

00:40:56.960 It's up toward a higher vista, let's say.

00:40:58.960 So there are automatically people who, who elicit that spirit in you.

00:41:03.420 You have noticed the way.

00:41:04.960 It might also imply, might also imply that there's some sense of struggle required to

00:41:09.040 get to that point.

00:41:10.040 Because it's easier to go downhill than it is uphill.

00:41:12.840 Yes, definitely.

00:41:13.880 That's right.

00:41:14.380 It's an uphill, it's an uphill trek.

00:41:16.060 And it's also implies judgment.

00:41:18.780 Because if someone's above you, then they also serve as a judge or you serve as a judge

00:41:25.040 in relationship to them because you compare yourself unfavorably with them.

00:41:29.680 And that can also inspire you to tear them down.

00:41:32.600 That's really the story of Cain and Abel.

00:41:34.320 And that's, that's a major story.

00:41:36.660 You have noticed the way a teacher, parent, co-worker, mentor, or friend interacts with

00:41:41.940 others.

00:41:42.760 And you come away thinking, hmm, that behavior simply works better.

00:41:48.320 They are respected, admired, and successful.

00:41:52.820 And you find yourself wondering why that is.

00:41:55.840 You do if you're a little bit humble instead of being envious, right? 1.00

00:41:59.040 Because otherwise you think, well, that damn crook, he just stole his position. 1.00

00:42:02.420 And that's why he's got it. 1.00

00:42:03.700 But if you're a bit humble, you might think, well, no, that guy looks successful.

00:42:06.980 Maybe he knows something I don't.

00:42:09.700 You are noticing attributes and character traits that are good and worth aspiring to.

00:42:15.560 You are noticing attributes that make certain people more successful than others.

00:42:19.460 Because you are noticing what a hero looks like.

00:42:24.140 And in the process, you are discovering a path made up of desirable personality traits

00:42:29.240 that helps you ascend in social hierarchies.

00:42:33.400 That's Jacob's ladder, by the way.

00:42:35.680 That, that ladder that is the hierarchy to the good.

00:42:39.800 That's the vision Jacob has of the pathway to God, is that it's a hierarchical structure

00:42:45.100 with the thing that's ultimately good at the pinnacle, by definition.

00:42:49.420 Right?

00:42:49.680 The best of all possible goods.

00:42:51.740 And then there are intermediary structures all the way up.

00:42:54.760 And beings inhabiting those structures.

00:42:57.460 And this isn't metaphysical.

00:42:59.020 It's like, if you find someone you admire, the reason you admire them is because they're

00:43:03.120 higher up in that heavenly hierarchy, so to speak, than you are.

00:43:06.440 And your whole nervous system tells you that.

00:43:09.040 You're compelled to listen.

00:43:10.300 You're compelled to pay attention by your own, by the action of your own unconscious mind.

00:43:14.740 You know, what's interesting about this point of identifying these heroes, or at least role

00:43:21.640 models, you can call them either one.

00:43:23.180 I just thought heroes was a more compelling word to use for the sake of writing it.

00:43:27.800 But what's interesting about it, too, is how pop culture actually plays a pretty important

00:43:31.020 part of this.

00:43:31.620 Because, like, there's plenty of people who simply don't have these good role models in

00:43:34.760 their lives.

00:43:35.320 And you have to acknowledge that.

00:43:36.880 And so where are they supposed to turn?

00:43:40.400 And it's maybe one of the reasons that it's so important to fight these cultural wars that

00:43:44.120 you and I engage in on a fairly regular basis, that they become a serious part of our politics,

00:43:49.360 which at the same time is necessary, but also deeply, deeply unfortunate.

00:43:54.640 I do think the attack on pop culture from this progressive victimhood left has reached

00:44:01.580 a ceiling.

00:44:02.780 I think there's a serious backlash.

00:44:08.000 You know, you look at movies like Top Gun, the recent one, Top Gun, but maybe like the

00:44:11.660 highest grossing of all time.

00:44:13.180 Absolutely phenomenal movie.

00:44:14.620 Really fun to watch.

00:44:15.600 Why?

00:44:16.480 Because it just had all of these classical virtues infused within it about relationships

00:44:22.540 and about how you treat people and what the consequences are for treating people as such

00:44:27.200 that these things speak to people in a deeper way.

00:44:29.900 They can't necessarily articulate them, but they understand it when they see it.

00:44:34.340 And there's these sort of radical minorities that are very loud that want that changed.

00:44:39.100 You know, they want something else to be on that hill.

00:44:42.600 But people react against it because it's not true.

00:44:45.620 There's no truth to that.

00:44:46.900 Yeah.

00:44:47.140 Well, yeah.

00:44:47.840 And something cries out from inside of them then.

00:44:50.660 And that can be appealed to by a storyteller.

00:44:53.320 I saw the same thing in the Marvel Avengers series, is that there is a return to any wide

00:45:01.240 range of classical virtues.

00:45:03.060 Certainly brotherhood, a kind of a military ethos, sacrifice, a striving upward, certainly

00:45:10.600 masculine virtues.

00:45:11.940 The combination of the Hulk and Iron Man, for example.

00:45:14.240 That's a, that's a, that's a, that's a, that's a, there's a monstrous element to the Hulk,

00:45:18.640 but he's a hero in a strange sense.

00:45:20.460 And he's also the revitalizing force for Iron Man when he just about dies.

00:45:24.540 And, and that's all the reason those movies were so necessary and so attractive is because

00:45:29.660 they are in fact addressing a radical conceptual void in the culture.

00:45:34.540 And it's a void that, well, that you're addressing in your book, especially with your appeal,

00:45:38.840 well, trifold appeal, let's say, to duty, responsibility and humor at the same time, right?

00:45:43.980 Which is a kind of stoicism in the face of catastrophe.

00:45:47.500 Here's a, here's a model.

00:45:49.660 So, for everyone who's listening and watching, you know, if you don't know what you should

00:45:55.820 do with your life, you don't know who you should be, sometimes you think about that as

00:45:58.860 what career you should pursue.

00:46:00.340 But here's another way of thinking about it.

00:46:02.020 It's kind of a SEALs ethos that Congressman Crenshaw detailed out.

00:46:08.060 Here's some things you could be.

00:46:10.180 Those are my words.

00:46:11.280 These are his.

00:46:11.860 You will be someone who's never late.

00:46:17.960 You will be someone who takes care of his men, gets to know them, and puts their needs

00:46:23.460 before yours.

00:46:25.660 You will be someone who does not quit in the face of adversity.

00:46:29.340 You will be someone who takes charge and leads when no one else will.

00:46:34.080 You will be detail-oriented, which you discuss a lot in later sections of the book.

00:46:40.960 Always vigilant, attentive.

00:46:43.000 You will be aggressive in your actions, but never lose your cool.

00:46:47.400 You will have a sense of humor, because sometimes that is all that can get you through the darkest

00:46:52.280 hours.

00:46:52.740 You will work hard and perform, even when no one is watching.

00:46:59.620 You'll be creative and think outside the box, even if it gets you in trouble.

00:47:04.960 You're a rebel, but not a mutineer.

00:47:08.420 You are a jack of all trades and master of none.

00:47:13.640 And then you follow that a little later with this paragraph, these paragraphs. 0.91

00:47:18.320 Be aggressive enough to kill the enemy, but immediately calm enough not to scare a little old lady. 1.00

00:47:28.600 You will be that man who's mentally tough enough to operate in horrific chaos, then

00:47:33.060 immediately transition to tranquility, all without mentally breaking.

00:47:39.520 You will effectively transition from hyper-masculine aggressor to gentle caretaker.

00:47:44.480 You will be both a warrior and a gentleman.

00:47:46.400 The qualities that made SEAL leaders great were rarely physical in nature.

00:47:54.000 They listened.

00:47:56.060 They empowered their team to be successful, carefully entrusting individuals with additional

00:48:02.300 responsibility.

00:48:03.720 It's a real conservative ethos there.

00:48:05.840 They highlighted good performance publicly and criticized bad performance privately.

00:48:12.880 And so, well, you know, those are lists of virtues, and maybe they're not the only list of possible

00:48:19.360 virtues.

00:48:20.200 Probably not.

00:48:21.280 But if you're lost and you don't know where to start practicing, you know, you also talk

00:48:26.280 about this idea that this is an Aristotelian idea, you know, that we are our habits.

00:48:31.860 We become what we practice.

00:48:33.500 And imagine if you're lost and you're listening, you think, well, you find some things admirable.

00:48:40.040 Well, you could practice those things, and you can practice them locally and minimally in your own

00:48:45.820 relationships.

00:48:46.360 And you can start to get good at them.

00:48:48.140 And as you get good at them, well, you get better at them, right?

00:48:51.240 And then you can broaden out the scope of your action into a wider purview.

00:48:56.100 And, like, I just can't see how you could go wrong if you're miserable by starting to work hard on

00:49:03.940 making other people's lives better, especially if you do it to some degree in secret, you know,

00:49:09.320 without trumpeting it.

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00:50:17.820 Yeah, and then being able to deal with it when you're not necessarily rewarded for it right

00:50:27.280 away.

00:50:29.100 It's certainly true in politics.

00:50:31.680 You know, what you were reading there was, yeah, a combination of, I think, some general

00:50:35.520 advice, but also the warrior ethos, which is a little bit more extreme, right?

00:50:39.920 This ability to move from chaos to tranquility very quickly.

00:50:44.060 It's just, it's always a phrase that stuck with me, maybe from Bud's instructors as we

00:50:49.280 were going through training, which is, they're always telling you who they want you to be.

00:50:55.820 And it's a mission statement, right?

00:50:58.380 It's an ethos.

00:50:59.140 And there's a SEAL ethos, which is a little long to read, but it's incredible because it's telling

00:51:05.400 you who you should be, not what you should do necessarily, not what outcomes you're looking

00:51:11.700 for.

00:51:12.380 And I tell this to corporations who have a mission statement on their website.

00:51:15.620 They're going to be like the number one seller on the West Coast.

00:51:18.560 Well, that's an outcome you might be looking for, but that's not telling you anything about

00:51:21.560 who you want to be.

00:51:22.660 And if you don't, if you don't tell that to the team, they have nowhere to aim towards.

00:51:30.000 They also can't switch outcomes when it's necessary, you know, so, because this is a

00:51:34.720 big problem in life.

00:51:35.780 Imagine you're aiming for something and then something happens to make it impossible, or

00:51:39.740 you find out that it's the wrong thing because you're aiming in the wrong direction.

00:51:44.240 Well, so then what do you have to rely on to set you right?

00:51:47.440 It's not your aim, obviously, but it might be your capacity to take new aim.

00:51:52.660 And that's bloody well dependent on your character, that's for sure.

00:51:56.400 And so I don't think there is a more fundamental aim than what you should be.

00:52:02.560 And there is no better way of characterizing what you should be than that you should fortify

00:52:11.440 your character.

00:52:14.640 Also worth noting, the outcomes you want will come more easily if you're striving to be

00:52:18.960 something that is a known good, that is of good quality, at least.

00:52:24.120 And, you know, I hope this book at least details some ideas of what that better person might

00:52:30.920 look like.

00:52:32.240 And it is certainly untrue that I live up to every one of those points that I just discussed.

00:52:36.540 But we're all sinners.

00:52:37.780 But that's also part of the point of an ideal, right?

00:52:40.220 I mean, the ideal should be beyond you, or what the hell kind of ideal is that?

00:52:44.200 If it's not an uphill walk, then there's nothing to do.

00:52:46.800 And, of course, you're going to be in sufficient relationship to that.

00:52:50.200 You list some other attributes here, too, that I'll continue with here.

00:52:55.660 And you want to be someone who can take a joke.

00:52:58.800 That's an amazingly important thing, eh?

00:53:00.660 And it's been so interesting to me, especially when I've interacted with, like, physically

00:53:08.080 laboring men, in particular, who have very, very difficult, very, very difficult jobs.

00:53:13.480 And the military jobs can be paramount among those.

00:53:17.100 It's that that's a prime way that men size each other up.

00:53:22.320 It's like, I think the question of whether or not you can take a joke is something like, 1.00

00:53:27.220 are you humble enough to be able to rapidly and with good humor admit to your own stupidity? 1.00

00:53:35.720 And in a fundamental sense, right? 1.00

00:53:37.540 Because if you do something funny, people will call you on it. 0.99

00:53:40.240 It's like, look at how useless you are. 0.97

00:53:41.800 And you go, yeah, yeah, yeah, look, I'm pretty. 1.00

00:53:43.740 You think that's useless. 0.91

00:53:44.900 Here's something else I did yesterday that was like twice as useless as that. 0.78

00:53:48.640 And then people think, oh, well, he's not afraid.

00:53:53.080 He's bigger than his flaws.

00:53:55.200 Yeah.

00:53:55.600 And he's secure.

00:53:57.220 You know, there's there's a sense of insecurity when you when you can't take a joke.

00:54:00.680 Now, of course, the the the partner of that idea would be tell good jokes.

00:54:07.080 OK, yeah, right.

00:54:08.560 There's you know, if you're going to if you're going to hit somebody for something,

00:54:12.160 make sure it's at least 20 percent funny and not just insulting.

00:54:16.900 And that requires judgment.

00:54:18.380 It requires a bit of balance and and practice, to be honest, timing, you know,

00:54:23.960 and just being in those moments.

00:54:26.920 I my sense of humor is perhaps a little too dry and sarcastic for some, especially outside

00:54:32.220 the military.

00:54:33.400 But you adapt and you learn and you take social cues and you will become better at this.

00:54:38.100 Shouldn't shy away from from humor because it's hard to imagine anything that gets you

00:54:42.960 through difficult times better than humor.

00:54:45.040 Yeah, well, that's a lovely thing if it was true, isn't it, that that there isn't anything

00:54:49.300 better to get you through difficulties than humor.

00:54:51.900 It'd be lovely if the world was actually set up that way.

00:54:55.180 You want to be someone who can take a joke.

00:54:57.200 You want to be productive.

00:54:59.200 Yeah.

00:54:59.380 The best definition I ever read of Christian charity, maybe just of charity in general,

00:55:05.160 generosity plus productivity.

00:55:07.900 And look, people like to stress the first, especially when they aren't the second.

00:55:14.080 It's like, I'm generous.

00:55:15.280 It's like, yeah, but you don't have anything.

00:55:17.440 So that's, you know, now I'm not talking about the people who truly have nothing and

00:55:21.980 are still willing to share.

00:55:24.140 I'm talking about the people who pull down the productive while hyping their own generosity

00:55:30.420 and forgetting that you'd be even better at being generous if you were also productive.

00:55:35.200 So I hear from socialists a lot that Jesus was a socialist.

00:55:39.580 This is a common refrain from the progressive left and the idea being that you should want

00:55:45.600 to give charity.

00:55:46.380 And I said, Jesus wasn't saying that you should take from others and make them give charity.

00:55:50.620 That wasn't what it is.

00:55:51.640 He said, you need to be generous with your belongings, with your time, with your labor.

00:55:56.980 That's what he was saying.

00:55:58.180 It was a generosity of the heart, not a demand on others.

00:56:02.300 That's right.

00:56:02.720 Well, it was, that's absolutely 100% correct.

00:56:06.260 It's an injunction towards the highest form of self-sacrifice, period, the end.

00:56:11.620 Obviously, that's what the crucifixion means, the acceptance of that catastrophic death,

00:56:16.920 all of the, what would you say, the tragedy of life, and then even a further radical acceptance

00:56:22.840 of the necessity to confront hell.

00:56:26.380 That's self-sacrifice.

00:56:27.800 That is not calling for moral actions on the part of others on your behalf.

00:56:33.320 Definitely, 100% not.

00:56:36.160 And that self-sacrifice is called upon even if you're innocent, right?

00:56:40.020 So, it's even more than that.

00:56:42.900 You want to have the ability to delay gratification.

00:56:45.760 You know, that ties in with what we talked about earlier about being able to treat yourself

00:56:49.860 as if you're a community across time.

00:56:52.400 Because to delay gratification means to sacrifice the hedonism of the present to the security and

00:57:00.280 iterability of the future.

00:57:02.120 And so, that is a hallmark of maturity.

00:57:03.940 That's also the ability to make sacrifices.

00:57:07.160 That's why the sacrificial motif is stressed so hard in the Old Testament.

00:57:11.480 You have to make sacrifices.

00:57:13.680 To what?

00:57:14.580 Well, to whatever you value.

00:57:17.560 Well, what's the highest value?

00:57:19.340 Well, by definition, that's God.

00:57:21.360 So, do you sacrifice to God?

00:57:23.400 Well, if you sacrifice at all, you sacrifice to a God.

00:57:27.740 Maybe you don't sacrifice. 0.97

00:57:29.220 Well, then you're immature.

00:57:30.700 Maybe you sacrifice to a lesser God. 0.98

00:57:33.180 Then maybe you should get your act together.

00:57:35.320 That's all tied together, integrally, with the notion of the ability to delay gratification.

00:57:42.760 That's why God tells Adam and Eve that they're condemned to work when they get thrown out of

00:57:46.740 the Garden of Eden.

00:57:47.640 It's like, well, now you have to work because you're aware of the future.

00:57:51.040 Well, that's a call to sacrifice because work is a sacrificial act.

00:57:55.140 And then the question is, in service of what?

00:57:57.580 And there's another chapter in the book called Do Something Hard.

00:58:00.260 It's pretty direct and straightforward there.

00:58:03.360 But where we're getting that is that there's a problem in our society where we do our best

00:58:09.960 to alleviate any kind of suffering.

00:58:11.560 As if we feel that there's this utopia available to us where suffering can be completely removed

00:58:18.040 from our lives.

00:58:19.320 But that's a false promise.

00:58:20.400 That's a false God.

00:58:22.120 It's impossible.

00:58:23.300 And worse than that, it prevents that sacrifice that you're talking about.

00:58:27.080 It prevents that uphill climb because people feel, are told to feel that there's some sense

00:58:31.800 of injustice if you have to work harder than anyone else for something else, for something.

00:58:36.800 And, you know, and they're blinded as to why.

00:58:40.460 And look, maybe you do have to work harder than someone else to get to the same point.

00:58:43.520 I'm not saying that's impossible, but.

00:58:45.620 We all do.

00:58:46.680 That's, you know, that's true for all of us, right?

00:58:49.700 Because with our genetic inheritance, let's say, some things come relatively easy to us

00:58:54.640 and some things are virtually impossible and have to be strived for mightily.

00:58:59.080 And I'm also not saying that some people aren't, what would you say, condemned in some fundamental

00:59:05.640 way in multiple dimensions simultaneously.

00:59:08.220 I mean, I've had people in my clinical practice and met people in my private life who are burdened

00:59:14.320 by so many difficulties simultaneously that it's almost incomprehensible.

00:59:17.900 So I'm not saying there's something even-handed about this, but all of us have to work very

00:59:25.680 hard on certain fronts to be better and to do better.

00:59:30.020 And it's also not obvious to me that that's actually, that's an unbearable price in some

00:59:35.940 sense, but it's also the most fundamental disciplining adventure, right?

00:59:41.520 And we know, I know, I don't know what it's like for you.

00:59:43.900 I suspect it's the same.

00:59:45.020 But when I look back in my life, I think when I'm thinking in a positive way, I think,

00:59:51.300 well, that was really difficult, but it was worth it.

00:59:54.340 And those two things are integrally associated, right?

00:59:57.020 Because you don't generally say, well, that was easy, but it was worth it.

01:00:01.420 You know, and so what that seems to mean is that the difficulty is intrinsically bound

01:00:07.720 up with the reward.

01:00:09.020 And then, of course, we know that, right?

01:00:11.220 Because how happy are you even for someone else when you see them overcome immense odds

01:00:18.000 to attain something of value?

01:00:20.540 Everyone stands up and cheers when that happens, you know?

01:00:23.560 That's every feel-good family movie ever made.

01:00:28.400 And I think one of the hardest parts about this concept is choosing which suffering to

01:00:33.480 engage in, which challenge to embark upon.

01:00:36.160 And I think it's a bigger problem for my generation in particular, because we see everything on

01:00:41.660 the internet.

01:00:42.520 And we see how quickly some people made it.

01:00:46.160 And then we feel behind if we're 10 years older than them, let's say.

01:00:50.180 And so there's this, and I wonder if that's what's behind the millennial habit of changing

01:00:55.320 between jobs extremely rapidly, it's hard for people to commit to a certain place because

01:01:00.040 they're so unsure if this is worth it.

01:01:02.480 If this, maybe they are engaging in the challenge, maybe they are working hard, but they're unsure

01:01:06.600 if it's worth it.

01:01:07.840 And, you know, and I don't know how to give that kind of advice.

01:01:09.940 I don't know what the right path is for you.

01:01:11.980 What I can tell you is if you're giving 90% instead of 110%, that whatever it is you're

01:01:17.580 engaged in now, the opportunities to do what you really want to do probably won't materialize.

01:01:21.800 I've got another principle there too.

01:01:26.000 If you're uncertain about what you're doing, and you don't know if you should change course,

01:01:33.160 set yourself the obligation to choose something more difficult before you change course.

01:01:38.840 Because there's a moral hazard, right?

01:01:40.280 It's like, well, am I unhappy or am I just useless?

01:01:44.640 It's like, well, a little of column A and a little of column B.

01:01:46.960 Well, how do I fortify myself against my uselessness?

01:01:52.140 I don't allow myself to switch course unless the challenge increases.

01:01:56.700 And that works, you know.

01:01:58.060 It's a check against your own laziness and inertia and envy and resentment.

01:02:04.060 Because you know then too, you can say to yourself, well, I moved from there.

01:02:09.280 I didn't fail.

01:02:10.100 I didn't quit.

01:02:10.680 I chose something more difficult.

01:02:12.280 And so I can have some faith in my choice.

01:02:16.440 Maybe.

01:02:16.920 Maybe I can have some faith in my choice.

01:02:19.200 Because you accepted a bigger challenge.

01:02:21.460 We talk about quitting.

01:02:22.440 This gets to another chapter called No Plan B.

01:02:25.340 And what I lay out as a concept there is not necessarily that you shouldn't have plan Bs

01:02:30.440 as defined as contingencies in your life.

01:02:33.100 You should always have contingencies.

01:02:34.740 But there's a mindset where that contingency becomes a crutch.

01:02:38.300 You know, and I talk about this in terms of SEAL training called BUDS, basic underwater

01:02:42.500 demolition slash SEAL training.

01:02:44.360 That's the famous training that everybody's familiar with, with Hell Week and the boats

01:02:48.600 on your heads running miles and miles, getting wet and sandy and coming in and out of the

01:02:52.520 cold Pacific Ocean.

01:02:54.180 That's BUDS.

01:02:55.700 And if you go into BUDS with any other idea than you will die before you quit, then you

01:03:01.680 will probably quit.

01:03:02.700 Because the contingency is pretty obvious.

01:03:05.300 It's warm coffee and donuts.

01:03:06.660 If you just go ring the bell three times and you say you've quit, that's your plan B.

01:03:11.580 You will reduce your suffering to a minimum if you do that.

01:03:15.740 But if that is truly an option for you in your head, then you'll probably take it.

01:03:23.100 Especially in the face of great adversity, which this training certainly is.

01:03:27.740 And so plan B doesn't mean don't have a backup plan.

01:03:31.700 It does mean have a mindset where you're going to aim higher, where you're going to aim for

01:03:35.220 your fundamental purpose.

01:03:36.760 And quitting is a tricky word because really, you know if you quit.

01:03:40.460 Changing courses, as you mentioned, it's not necessarily quitting.

01:03:43.060 And I point out, you think you want to be an artist.

01:03:46.240 And this has been your dream for God knows how long. 1.00

01:03:48.900 But honestly, you suck at it. 0.98

01:03:50.700 And your talent just cannot catch up with your aspirations. 0.99

01:03:53.860 And that's a reality.

01:03:54.920 And if you move to something else, does that make you a quitter?

01:03:57.600 I'm not so sure it does.

01:04:00.500 Yeah, exactly.

01:04:01.240 Well, then that's just learning from experience, you know.

01:04:04.740 And I was thinking when you were talking about no plan B, I thought, oh, yes, well, that's

01:04:09.620 marriage, you know.

01:04:10.580 Because the great psychologist Carl Jung, he thought, well, marriage has to be an unbreakable

01:04:15.820 vow.

01:04:17.500 Why?

01:04:18.520 Because you have to be in 110%.

01:04:20.740 And if you have a backup plan, which is, well, if this doesn't work out, I can always

01:04:25.000 find someone else.

01:04:25.800 It's like when adversity comes, which it will, because you're bound together with this person

01:04:31.820 for life and life is adversity.

01:04:34.180 Then if you have this lurking way out, you're not going to do the work necessary to struggle

01:04:41.380 through what you have to struggle through to continue to forge the relationship with

01:04:45.500 your wife.

01:04:45.960 And so we even know this, I would say, clinically in some real sense.

01:04:50.480 So imagine there's two competing hypotheses.

01:04:52.860 One is, well, you have to learn to be married, and maybe you should give it a trial run.

01:04:58.900 And so before you get married, which is this full 110% commitment with no plan B, you live

01:05:05.340 together.

01:05:06.380 Then you learn if you're compatible, and if it works, you proceed to marriage.

01:05:09.520 And in that case, if that theory is right, the people who lived together before they got

01:05:13.900 married would be less likely to be divorced. 0.92

01:05:17.660 But they're not.

01:05:19.600 They're more likely to be divorced.

01:05:21.700 Really?

01:05:22.520 Absolutely.

01:05:23.240 And I think the reason for that is...

01:05:24.620 Because they were testing it out the whole time.

01:05:26.600 Well, it's hard to say.

01:05:28.200 Well, that's one possibility, is that people more likely to get divorced are also more likely 0.92

01:05:33.480 to live together, right?

01:05:34.520 So they just don't have as much respect for the conventions.

01:05:37.800 But the other possibility is, well, what are you saying when you live with someone?

01:05:41.380 What are you really saying?

01:05:43.300 And I know what you're saying.

01:05:44.500 I know what it is.

01:05:45.320 It's like, I find you acceptably attractive for now, but there's some real possibility that

01:05:54.140 I could do better.

01:05:55.600 And maybe you could too.

01:05:57.600 And if you'll allow me the possibility that I can trade up, I'll allow you that possibility.

01:06:01.920 And in the meantime, we'll just exploit each other and see how it goes.

01:06:06.080 It's like, well, how the hell are you going to forge a lasting relationship on that basis?

01:06:10.640 You know, maybe it has to be something like, well, I'm pretty bloody thrilled to have you

01:06:15.580 given all my flaws, and hopefully you feel the same way about me if I'm fortunate.

01:06:20.840 And let's go all in on this, like 100%.

01:06:24.080 Knowing it's going to be a catastrophe, because life is a catastrophe, we're not going to step

01:06:28.820 outside.

01:06:30.140 We're going to make the best of this, and we're going to swear to do that, because that'll

01:06:33.680 give us the fortitude necessary to actually be desperate enough to make it work.

01:06:39.360 And so that's no plan B, man.

01:06:42.240 And it doesn't mean you should die if your marriage happens to, well, if your partner

01:06:49.340 dies, for example.

01:06:50.360 It doesn't mean you're obligated to end your life or anything like that.

01:06:53.320 But there's lots of games you can't play if you're not all in.

01:06:58.060 It's a great point on marriage.

01:07:01.300 It's funny, because me and my wife, we took wedding photos on the Buds grinder, which is

01:07:06.780 sort of the central location of this hellish training that happens.

01:07:10.280 And inscribed in a big plaque on one of the walls there is a famous SEAL quote, the only

01:07:17.660 easy day was yesterday.

01:07:19.620 And it's speaking to a major truth, I think, in combat and SEAL teams, which is don't rest

01:07:26.420 on your laurels, everything before you thought that was hard, just wait till what's next.

01:07:30.260 And you're just, it's just mentally preparing you for it.

01:07:32.780 And sort of tongue in cheek, we took a wedding photo in front of that sign, because it maybe

01:07:36.320 applies the same way.

01:07:38.440 Well, it does apply in the same way.

01:07:39.980 I mean, the thing about being married to someone is that you face the worst of life with them.

01:07:45.580 Now, the best, perhaps as well.

01:07:47.560 And maybe that's dependent on how well you face the worst.

01:07:50.020 But if you have a mistress, it's all parties and roses, you know, at least in principle,

01:07:55.460 because you don't have to do anything difficult with that person.

01:07:58.160 You parse all the difficulty off to your poor wife, who has to bear the responsibility of 0.85

01:08:03.620 the catastrophe of the children's lives and the domestic economy and the fact that she

01:08:08.260 has to live with you and all the things that go along with that.

01:08:11.260 So she has all that burden, and this other person is just a vacation.

01:08:15.080 It's like, well, that's not a very good plan.

01:08:16.760 Man, and how in the world can you, you have to swear fealty to someone in order to abide

01:08:25.600 by them when the catastrophes come to your door.

01:08:29.760 And the thing is, man, the catastrophes are going to come to your door.

01:08:32.880 And if you want to be alone and miserable when that happens, then I guess you're going

01:08:38.460 to find out what that's like.

01:08:39.600 But if you have that bond that won't break, then maybe you can guide each other through

01:08:48.280 the darkest places.

01:08:50.560 I'm going to read something else you said here, and this is very, very much worth stressing.

01:08:59.800 Why duty and how is that associated with happiness?

01:09:02.800 Well, maybe we find our happiness in pursuing our highest duty.

01:09:05.600 I was reading Exodus, did a seminar in Exodus in Miami last week, and I had great scholars

01:09:11.560 there to help me walk through it.

01:09:13.400 And one of the things that's very interesting about Exodus is that when God tells the pharaonic

01:09:19.460 tyrant to free the Israelites, he always uses the same phrase, and you only ever hear half

01:09:24.860 the phrase.

01:09:26.920 He has Moses say, let my people go.

01:09:31.240 Now, you hear that phrase all the time.

01:09:33.000 But you don't hear the second half of the phrase, which is repeated, I think, nine times,

01:09:38.360 one for each plague, perhaps ten times, because there's actually ten plagues.

01:09:42.220 If you count the devastation of the firstborns, that's the tenth plague.

01:09:47.380 God has Moses say, let my people go, that they may serve me in the wilderness. 0.98

01:09:55.140 And that's really interesting, eh?

01:09:56.600 Because it's not, and Dennis Prager pointed out, that the word freedom isn't used once

01:10:02.060 in the Exodus narrative.

01:10:04.200 And it's because the freedom from tyranny isn't hedonism.

01:10:11.860 It's not the blind pursuit of passions.

01:10:15.740 It's the servitude to a higher purpose.

01:10:22.160 Proper freedom is servitude to a higher purpose.

01:10:24.980 Voluntarily accepted servitude to a higher purpose.

01:10:27.400 Perhaps the highest purpose, which is what God calls the Israelites to.

01:10:31.040 And you say in your book here, purpose is meaning.

01:10:34.960 Meaning, that's a hell of a thing if it's true.

01:10:38.560 Purpose is meaning, especially if you find purpose in duty and responsibility, and I think

01:10:42.800 you genuinely do, in sacrifice.

01:10:44.780 I think that's true, deeply true.

01:10:47.520 Purpose is meaning, and meaning is happiness.

01:10:51.140 We don't think about happiness enough, and when we do, we do not necessarily think about

01:10:55.120 it properly.

01:10:56.000 Happiness is neither joy nor entertainment.

01:10:59.220 It is an ontological condition, fundamental to our existence as humans.

01:11:05.460 It's notable that when the founders drafted the Declaration of Independence, they listed

01:11:09.980 up front three things to which we are all entitled.

01:11:12.660 Life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.

01:11:18.040 A little later you say, you need to understand that your purpose may be great in the eyes of

01:11:24.480 the world, or it may be commonplace and seemingly, seemingly small.

01:11:29.220 Your purpose might be your family, your children.

01:11:32.400 It might be tutoring a child and changing their life.

01:11:35.340 It might be the business you started.

01:11:38.160 It might be cleaning up your block.

01:11:40.400 It might be in the help you give others.

01:11:42.980 It might be in the example you set.

01:11:46.520 And then you say, as John Adams said,

01:11:50.080 Our constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. 0.67

01:11:55.300 It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other.

01:12:00.420 And so, I love the way that's all tied together.

01:12:03.940 You know, that happiness is to be found in the pursuit of meaning and purpose, and that's

01:12:11.420 tied up with duty and responsibility.

01:12:14.020 Responsibility to others.

01:12:14.940 I think that's fundamentally true.

01:12:17.980 And I do think that's the way out of the deepest suffering.

01:12:21.640 And then the idea that accepting that and striving for it individually is the precondition

01:12:28.600 for the survival of a constitutional state like the U.S.

01:12:32.160 I think that's also, that's literally metaphorically, theologically, and philosophically true as

01:12:38.260 well, as well as politically.

01:12:40.340 Right, and, you know, bringing the politics into this, that's, it's fundamental, and it's

01:12:45.000 part of the fundamental battles that we have right now.

01:12:49.980 You know, there's definitely some truth to the idea that if you're looking for that

01:12:53.900 proper moral framework and that proper path toward happiness, the Christian, the Judeo-Christian 0.57

01:13:00.780 tradition is a pretty good place to look for that.

01:13:04.120 And even if you're not a believer, and many people are not, it's hard to deny that that

01:13:11.120 same moral framework isn't used, that you use it on a daily basis to do good and to make

01:13:15.600 yourself happy.

01:13:16.480 And I think there's been a movement for quite a long time, ever since Marx wrote his famous

01:13:25.240 works that I think set off this revolution, or maybe it was since the French Revolution

01:13:28.920 in 1789, maybe that's the real start of it, where this hubris takes over, this ingratitude

01:13:35.560 for what is tried and true takes over, and the worship of reason starts to occur.

01:13:43.780 This is the French Revolution, of course, and where they tear down these iconic Christian 0.53

01:13:49.540 symbols and replace them with the idols of reason, and worship that instead, worship our

01:13:55.100 own ability to create our own utopia.

01:13:57.620 And it didn't turn out so well.

01:14:00.040 And recently, it happened again in 2020, where you get these autonomous zones that were created

01:14:06.000 in places like Portland and Seattle, they called them CHAZ.

01:14:08.840 It really was, in the end, it was all just a good laugh for the rest of us as we watched

01:14:13.100 this complete chaos unfold in front of us, but a chaos that was guided by this highly irrational,

01:14:25.460 but also highly egotistical and narcissistic idea that you could find your own utopia and

01:14:33.240 do away with any of the institutions and traditions that laid the framework and laid the groundwork

01:14:39.120 for where you are today.

01:14:40.740 And of course, it ended in chaos and had to be, there was murder, murders happened in

01:14:46.980 there, the drug use, it was just complete nonsense.

01:14:50.280 And it's certainly not what the founders meant by the pursuit of happiness.

01:14:54.400 I know we already talked about that.

01:14:55.780 You have another quote here from John Paul II.

01:15:01.260 A generation back in 1995, St. John Paul II reminded an audience of Americans at Camden Yards

01:15:09.680 in Baltimore, that the meeting of those necessary tasks and responsibilities is the very essence

01:15:18.560 of our national character.

01:15:21.300 Every generation of Americans needs to know that freedom consists not in doing what we like,

01:15:29.480 but in having the right to do what we ought.

01:15:34.160 That's a lovely phrase, that, to have the right to do what we ought, right?

01:15:38.780 So that's such an interesting twist on what freedom means.

01:15:42.760 And it is very much akin to this idea that God frees the Israelites so that they can serve

01:15:48.040 the highest purpose in the desert.

01:15:50.180 And you think, well, what in the wilderness?

01:15:52.220 Well, the wilderness is the wilderness of the soul, obviously, in despair and catastrophe.

01:15:58.280 That's the wilderness in exile.

01:16:00.480 You want to serve what's highest in that situation.

01:16:02.840 Because that's the way through.

01:16:05.200 That's the exodus, because exodus means ex hodos, which means way forward.

01:16:09.400 The way forward out of the desert and out of the tyranny is by the adoption of the highest

01:16:14.660 possible level of responsibility.

01:16:17.360 And that's the right to adopt that responsibility is there for the, what is it, sign quenon?

01:16:24.480 Is that the right word?

01:16:25.840 Of freedom.

01:16:26.760 Not the freedom to engage in hedonistic excess, which isn't a freedom at all.

01:16:31.040 It's just self-destructive.

01:16:32.160 You know, psychopaths say they don't learn from experience.

01:16:36.180 They're really hard on their future selves.

01:16:39.340 They have to move from locale to locale because everybody figures them out.

01:16:44.460 Like they betray themselves just exactly and as badly with their hedonistic pursuit of power

01:16:50.700 and licentiousness. 0.86

01:16:52.760 They betray themselves just as badly as they betray everyone else.

01:16:55.820 And the clinical literature on that is crystal clear.

01:16:58.800 And some of them are in politics.

01:17:00.800 But the, now the, that quote's important because it gets to the idea of ordered liberty, which

01:17:06.200 is fundamental to the American sense of freedom.

01:17:08.880 And, you know, I think we've fleshed that out pretty well at this point.

01:17:12.300 Freedom is, freedom has a deeper meaning than just hedonistic pleasures and short-term gratification.

01:17:16.740 And the American experiment is fundamental to this, this idea of ordered liberty.

01:17:21.800 I always point to the, to the Statue of Liberty as some good symbolism for this because she holds

01:17:26.060 her, her torch, which is supposed to illuminate the path towards freedom.

01:17:28.960 But, but nobody really sees what she has in her other hand, which is a tabula on Sara.

01:17:33.220 It's a book of law.

01:17:34.280 And inscribed on that book of law is, is our, our independence day, July 4th, 1776.

01:17:40.620 And that's interesting.

01:17:41.740 I think that symbolism is interesting because one, she's, it's, it's a book of law.

01:17:46.160 So it is, it is this idea that you can't really have freedom unless there's some sense of law

01:17:50.780 here, because if you have anarchy, of course, the natural extreme there is anarchy and hard

01:17:55.980 to be truly free in anarchy because there's a high, there's a high likelihood that stronger

01:18:00.320 people will just infringe on your rights and destroy you and end up in this sort of post

01:18:04.900 apocalyptic warlord scenario.

01:18:07.120 But authoritarianism is of course, the other end of that, in which you clearly don't have

01:18:11.300 freedom either.

01:18:12.160 And so ordered liberty when this, in this social contract where people agree to live by some

01:18:16.980 sense of moral standards.

01:18:18.040 And then the question is, where do we get those moral standards from?

01:18:21.080 And I think that's why we put in God, we trust those words on everything from our coins

01:18:25.260 to our dollar bills to inscribed right above the chair of the speaker of the house.

01:18:29.220 Well, no, you know, an ordered, ordered liberty, a walled garden is ordered liberty.

01:18:34.880 That's a standard image of, of paradise.

01:18:37.900 It has to be culture, that's the walls, right?

01:18:40.740 And then it has to be freedom, natural freedom, even within, but, but it has to be balanced and,

01:18:48.520 and, and, and it has to be balanced in a way that's, that signifies the deepest possible

01:18:54.320 meaning.

01:18:54.700 So that's another thing that's very interesting psychologically is what's the phenomenology

01:19:00.180 of getting the balance between order and chaos, right?

01:19:03.220 Or between law and freedom, let's say.

01:19:05.460 And I know the answer to that.

01:19:06.780 The answer is meaning, because that's what meaning signifies.

01:19:10.480 So when you're gripped by that sense of meaning, this is literally the case.

01:19:14.520 When you're gripped by that sense of meaning, what your nervous system is signaling to you

01:19:18.900 from the lowest depths is that you're somewhere secure enough so you don't have to be panicking,

01:19:27.260 but on the edge enough so that you're maximally learning.

01:19:32.820 And so you're, you're benefiting from the walls and the rules.

01:19:35.980 That's the predictability.

01:19:37.640 But then you extend yourself out into the unknown.

01:19:40.460 And when you do that enough, your interest intensifies and your attention intensifies

01:19:45.020 and your engagement life intensifies.

01:19:47.560 And if you do that maximally, well, then you're on the line between yin and yang, right?

01:19:52.180 Hey, Jonathan Pajot told me something very interesting about this.

01:19:55.460 It's so cool.

01:19:56.200 This just blew me into bits when I heard it.

01:19:59.380 You know, when the Israelites are going out of, out of Egypt into the desert after the Red 1.00

01:20:05.320 Sea, God appears to them as a column of fire at night and a column of cloud during the day.

01:20:15.560 And I asked Pajot what that meant because I couldn't quite figure it out.

01:20:18.380 And he said, well, it's the same thing as the yin and yang is the column of fire is light

01:20:22.700 in the darkness and the column of cloud is darkness in the light.

01:20:26.420 It's shade and the provision of, of, of, of what would you call protection from the sun

01:20:32.320 when it's too bright and then at night, the fire is what lights your way.

01:20:35.680 And so you have these two pillars.

01:20:38.380 They're just like the two circles in the yin and yang.

01:20:41.300 And if you're guided by the light at night and the darkness during the day, balanced in

01:20:45.940 proper proportions, then you're on God's path out of the tyranny in the desert.

01:20:50.740 It just blew me away because right there, you have the union of the Taoist philosophy

01:20:55.320 and the Judeo-Christian philosophy and in a single dramatic image.

01:20:59.340 It's absolutely, it's absolutely spectacular that that was like one of a hundred things

01:21:05.240 I learned at this seminar, but that's so cool.

01:21:07.820 If you imagine, imagine if that was really the case is that, you know, when you're suffering

01:21:12.020 and miserable, there's a potential pathway of meaning that beckons forward, even in the

01:21:18.120 depths of that misery.

01:21:19.580 And that's, if you can find that, it means, literally means you found the pathway out.

01:21:24.780 And that's the pathway that's marked by the proper balance between predictability and

01:21:29.780 unpredictability and law and spirit and structure and fire and tree and snake, all of those opposites.

01:21:36.220 They all line up.

01:21:37.420 And then that imbues you with the sense that your life is worth it, that existence is worth

01:21:44.520 it despite the suffering and the malevolence.

01:21:46.840 It's phenomenal, man.

01:21:48.140 It's phenomenal.

01:21:48.840 Literally phenomenal.

01:21:50.320 Yeah.

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01:23:04.760 And there's a, it's the balance of politics too, or at least it should be.

01:23:12.200 I mean, what we should be arguing about when we argue in politics is this, this balance between

01:23:17.400 chaos and order.

01:23:18.820 And there's this balance between too much order and too much government control, you know,

01:23:23.440 based in this idea that you, the government can create this utopia for people based on

01:23:28.040 the, based on this idea that the government might even know what utopia is for everyone.

01:23:33.380 Right.

01:23:33.820 And that's, that's, that's the amount of hubris involved in that, in that presumption is enormous.

01:23:38.820 And on the other side, this, this idea that, well, you know, you should just let everyone

01:23:44.320 be free and, and, you know, hedonistic or anarchic in a sense.

01:23:47.980 And of course, the balance is the right place for that.

01:23:51.040 If I write another book, I think it would be about defining this philosophy of freedom

01:23:55.600 and how we think about it and how best to obtain it.

01:23:59.680 Maybe that would be a good place, a good, good direction to go, but fundamentally that's

01:24:03.520 the, and it's, it's Thomas Sowell's conflict of visions, the unconstrained versus the constrained

01:24:08.240 vision, this unconstrained vision being that there is no limit to what government can accomplish

01:24:12.640 if we just do it together and we just want the nice things.

01:24:16.080 Okay.

01:24:16.200 That's the unconstrained vision.

01:24:17.980 And the constrained vision is a little bit more humility about what we think government

01:24:21.920 can accomplish to make your life better, to help you pursue your own happiness.

01:24:26.180 And so the conservative angle on this is have a sense of gratitude for institutions that

01:24:33.200 existed before us.

01:24:34.960 Know the, know the foundations that we stand upon to be where we're at right now and know

01:24:39.140 that we want to reach higher and that it might be difficult to reach higher, but do not set a flame

01:24:43.720 the foundations beneath you just because you haven't reached that higher point yet,

01:24:47.140 which I believe is what the left does.

01:24:49.820 And the unfortunate reality on the, on the, on the far right would be, they have begun to agree

01:24:55.520 with the left that, that any problem with an institution means it must be torn down immediately.

01:25:00.980 You're seeing that you're seeing this with the military, you know, cause there's some woke

01:25:03.820 problems in the military.

01:25:05.420 You know, it's, it's true.

01:25:06.200 I'm probably one of the people on the, on the cutting edge of this, trying to fight it and,

01:25:10.700 and, and actually get examples of it, send them, send them to the department of defense

01:25:14.520 so that they know the problem from the top.

01:25:17.860 But, but on the radical, right, what they would want is to just defund the military,

01:25:22.300 defund our military, vote to defund the military because they're doing silly things and silly 0.99

01:25:27.260 diversity and inclusion exercises for some soldiers, which are stupid and they should go away. 0.99

01:25:32.420 But does it mean you tear down the institution itself? 0.99

01:25:36.300 Same, similar with media people, people see and have good reason to distrust certain media outlets.

01:25:43.000 Um, and they make mistakes.

01:25:44.780 They, they, they, they construct narratives that are, that are false.

01:25:49.340 Does it mean you never trust anything again from any of these outlets?

01:25:53.500 No, it means you should be skeptical, but there's a difference between being skeptical and the desire

01:25:57.920 to completely tear down an institution.

01:25:59.900 Because the problem that I see is that because people don't just, because people distrust some

01:26:04.300 of these legacy media outlets, they now think that the truth must lie consequently in the

01:26:09.660 deepest, darkest corners of the internet and the most random of websites that you've never even

01:26:13.680 heard of, where it's usually some, you know, 21 year old trying to cut their teeth and get some

01:26:18.100 kind of sensationalist headline out there.

01:26:20.740 That's not true either.

01:26:22.720 Yeah.

01:26:23.000 Well, you see this odd, this odd rising conceptual problem on the right.

01:26:28.180 And it's something I've been observing that's made me concerned about.

01:26:33.200 It's one of the concerns I have about, about Trump's strategic approach, let's say.

01:26:39.620 You know, he, he appealed to a sense of resentment and a sense of desire for justice

01:26:45.460 on the part of the excluded working class.

01:26:48.320 I think the Democrats made a catastrophic strategic error, throwing the working class to the wind.

01:26:53.960 And I think the environmentalists are doing an even worse job of that now.

01:26:57.580 And Trump appealed to them, which is odd because, well, it was odd for a whole variety of reasons,

01:27:02.740 but, but he did appeal to them.

01:27:05.080 But the appeal has a danger, right?

01:27:07.240 The upside is he's a man who is, is hypothetically standing for a movement towards justice and even inclusion for the working class.

01:27:17.900 But the, but that can easily slide into an appeal to resentment, hey?

01:27:21.940 And, and the appeal to resentment then starts to become identical with the appeal to resentment that's made by the radical left.

01:27:27.880 And it, it touches on the issues that you raised, which is, well, the institutions are so corrupt that we should just tear them down.

01:27:34.120 You can't trust the politicians.

01:27:35.940 You can't trust the media.

01:27:37.580 You can't trust the judiciary.

01:27:39.460 It's like, okay, how are you different from the radical leftists then?

01:27:46.080 Like, aren't you just, and aren't you by saying all that, aren't you also saying that they're correct?

01:27:53.280 And then I have another comment about that, that maybe you'd like, so we could, we could go in two directions here.

01:27:58.540 I mean, think a lot about, about Trump and his brand and what it means for the Republicans.

01:28:03.980 And for me, Trump, part of Trump's attraction was that he was Trump, even in that literal sense, right?

01:28:11.640 He's the guy at the top.

01:28:12.760 He's not the sort of guy that a low-level operative can screw around with.

01:28:16.980 He's a guy that gets things done. 0.99

01:28:18.580 He's not the guy that has things taken from him by fools. 0.97

01:28:21.700 He's the guy who can see what's in front of his eyes. 0.85

01:28:25.500 He's a guy you can trust in, as a, what would you say, an icon of competence and stability in a sea of chaos.

01:28:33.680 That's his brand.

01:28:35.220 And then the election doesn't go so well.

01:28:37.200 He loses.

01:28:38.760 And then he says, well, it was stolen from me.

01:28:41.640 And I think, well, every political system is subject to a certain degree of corruption.

01:28:46.120 And the margins of victory are small.

01:28:49.300 And so, leaving that aside for a moment.

01:28:53.280 It's like, I thought you were the guy that this sort of thing didn't happen to.

01:28:56.760 I thought you were the guy who couldn't have things stolen from him easily.

01:29:01.380 I thought you were the guy who didn't turn into a victim when he didn't get what he wanted.

01:29:10.620 And so now, that's a big story, right?

01:29:12.960 The election fraud.

01:29:14.140 And that seems to be the basis of his hypothetical return to the political scene.

01:29:18.900 And, Jesus, that's a pretty dismal story.

01:29:21.300 And I think it's going to have an even more dismal outcome if it prevails.

01:29:27.600 What you said earlier about the claiming that, you know, the courts are corrupt.

01:29:36.040 The system is corrupt.

01:29:37.260 This is corrupt.

01:29:37.740 That's corrupt. 1.00

01:29:38.160 Politicians are corrupt.

01:29:39.820 You're completely right in that it ends up justifying the left's position, fundamentally.

01:29:44.600 Because it becomes this sort of outcome-based philosophy as opposed to a process-based philosophy.

01:29:49.480 Conservatism is a process-based philosophy.

01:29:52.140 Where we believe the point of being a politician is to adhere to and construct a governing system that allows us to disagree and then reach a point of consensus to the best possible way.

01:30:08.180 That's the point.

01:30:10.320 But the more that people believe that the point is really beating the other side and then twisting institutions in order to do so,

01:30:17.820 Well, it shows that you don't have any respect for precedent or unintended consequences.

01:30:23.260 And that's our criticism of the left.

01:30:25.420 Because we're like, okay, you want to pack the Supreme Court?

01:30:28.220 Well, how do you think that's going to go when we take over?

01:30:29.920 So what?

01:30:30.300 By the end of the decade, we're going to have 30 Supreme Court justices?

01:30:33.860 How's that going to go?

01:30:34.640 That's a conservative way of thinking.

01:30:36.500 Or you want to remove the filibuster?

01:30:38.740 Then what do you think that's going to do when we take over? 0.90

01:30:40.800 We're going to destroy you.

01:30:41.800 And we didn't remove the filibuster because we didn't want you to destroy us.

01:30:47.000 You know, and the election thing, this has been a problem with everybody.

01:30:50.200 I mean, it seems this is a new, I don't know how new it is.

01:30:53.520 But it got extreme, obviously, in the most recent election.

01:30:58.660 But Stacey Abrams still claims she won the governorship of Georgia. 1.00

01:31:03.580 And this tit for tat, this escalation ladder that's occurred on both sides is unbelievably toxic.

01:31:09.280 And it's made them both look like the same people.

01:31:12.360 I could list a whole number of ways by disposition where I think the radical right is the same as the radical left.

01:31:17.620 And I'm not sure Trump is the face of the radical right, the way I define them.

01:31:22.260 You know, it's almost like one of the problems is Trump is no longer leading.

01:31:26.080 Because when he was actually governing, he governed pretty mainstream conservative.

01:31:30.880 There's this sort of mythology about him, like he was different.

01:31:33.820 He really, he governed like a mainstream conservative.

01:31:36.080 He was just very bold about it.

01:31:37.840 Which is why a lot of us, like me, would say, well, the way he governed, he was, policy-wise, was excellent.

01:31:43.700 Even on the foreign policy front, I thought he was excellent.

01:31:46.480 But the radical right hates foreign policy.

01:31:49.300 I mean, just as a, as a, I think they would do away with the State Department if they could.

01:31:54.220 They do not want any foreign policy.

01:31:56.240 They're irrationally and emotionally averse to any kind of American involvement in the world.

01:32:00.680 They call it globalism.

01:32:01.700 They call it, you know, America lasts.

01:32:04.180 And I'm like, well, you know, last I checked, I'm not sure that it's America first if China and Russia get to get to form their own world order while we just sit back and take it.

01:32:12.680 Now, and then the other similarities, I would say, between the radical right and radical left are these victimhood grievances, these grievance narratives, this appeal to that kind of grievance, this outcome-based philosophy.

01:32:24.140 Now, ironically, with the outcome-based philosophy, this win-at-all-cost philosophy, ironically, they don't want to win.

01:32:31.800 And you can see that over and over again.

01:32:33.580 They'd rather, they'd rather die on a hill and engage in that kamikaze mission than win. 0.66

01:32:39.120 Because winning means some sense of responsibility to go.

01:32:42.020 And that is not something they want.

01:32:45.180 It's us versus them. 0.99

01:32:46.700 It's this loyalty.

01:32:48.720 It's this constant testing and heretic hunting within the movement.

01:32:54.920 Again, it occurs on the left, occurs on the radical right.

01:32:56.860 On the right, we actually have words for it.

01:32:58.220 We call them rhinos.

01:32:59.780 We go rhino hunting.

01:33:01.240 You had Eric Greitens make this deplorable ad. 0.93

01:33:03.920 And just utterly beclown himself by getting a gun and saying, this is my rhino hunting gun, and I'm going to go hunt rhinos. 0.96

01:33:10.940 Right. 0.96

01:33:11.360 Republican in name only. 0.96

01:33:13.240 It's so ridiculous, you kind of have to laugh at it a little bit. 0.88

01:33:17.500 But it's also created a toxicity that is really, really unfortunate. 0.56

01:33:23.000 So let's return to this issue of criticism of the fundamental institutions, because there's a lot of that going on.

01:33:29.100 And there's a huge cultural movement in the U.S. and the West more broadly to make the case that the very principles upon which our great nations were founded are in and of themselves corrupt.

01:33:40.360 That America, for example, is fundamentally a nation built on the, what would you call it, that builds slavery into its system right from the onset.

01:33:50.320 And should be understood primarily as an oppressive structure who is continuing to propagate itself across time.

01:33:59.300 On the right, too, you have this problem is if you're going to criticize the institutions, how far do you go down?

01:34:04.440 And I look at the institutions and I think, well, America was founded on the principles that were originated in no small part in Great Britain.

01:34:15.500 And Great Britain fought for more than 150 years to end the slave trade, even though they had participated in it, like virtually every other society since the dawn of mankind.

01:34:28.260 And somehow they decided it was wrong and then they fought for more than a century, almost two centuries, to stop the slave trade.

01:34:36.620 And they did that because they're predicated, like the U.S., on the idea that each individual is a divine, is a locus of divinity in some inalienable sense.

01:34:47.440 And I'm not willing to criticize that proposition.

01:34:50.000 I think that when the criticism of the institution goes that far, then, well, what exactly are you throwing out here?

01:34:57.960 Because your very claim that there's something wrong with slavery is predicated on acceptance of the proposition that each individual is made in the image of God.

01:35:09.440 And that's an institutional claim.

01:35:11.780 And so is that corrupt?

01:35:13.440 And if it's corrupt, well, then why isn't slavery okay?

01:35:18.420 If it's just about power, if it's about some other principle.

01:35:22.640 So the criticism has to go far enough, obviously, but it can't go too far.

01:35:29.320 And we can't lose, this is part of your reference to tradition and responsibility, we can't lose sight of the balance between the law book the Statue of Liberty is holding and the flame that's held aloft.

01:35:40.660 And part of that is the tension, the proper tension between the people on the left and the right.

01:35:46.480 You know, the right are going to say, well, don't forget about the walls.

01:35:50.780 And the left is going to say, well, don't forget about the garden.

01:35:53.700 It's like, hey, fair enough.

01:35:55.000 And where should the walls be and how much should be gardened?

01:35:58.080 Well, we have to talk about that all the time.

01:36:00.380 There used to be a little bit more agreement in America on what that looked like.

01:36:03.880 There was a little bit more agreement on our foundations, our constitution, our Judeo-Christian heritage.

01:36:09.480 And so there's very little agreement on that now, maybe more than we realize.

01:36:14.380 Look, I actually still am somewhat optimistic that maybe 70% of the public is still largely on the same page.

01:36:20.660 And this very exhausted, silent majority that has just tuned out from politics.

01:36:25.420 I think it's probably more than that.

01:36:27.220 But I think it's probably 90% that you just hardly need any radicals, especially if they're given free reign.

01:36:34.000 You hardly need any radicals to destabilize the society.

01:36:37.260 Plus, we've subsidized a whole number of generations of people who do nothing but criticize, right?

01:36:43.340 And I would say those are the academics, particularly in the woke humanities.

01:36:46.760 It's like they're paid to do nothing but criticize.

01:36:49.820 So it's no wonder that everything's under assault.

01:36:52.680 Well, with social media, it allows that very small number of people.

01:36:57.220 to congregate rather quickly, affirm each other's beliefs rather quickly,

01:37:01.500 and then make it appear as though there is some movement happening when there's really no movement.

01:37:06.900 And to mob, and to mob everyone who dares disagree in a very effective manner.

01:37:11.960 Like, I've watched, I bet, I bet I know 250 people now who've been mobbed.

01:37:18.080 You're self-included.

01:37:19.920 Well, yeah, like, yes.

01:37:21.260 What's interesting, too, is they'll try to mob you.

01:37:22.780 So I think the first video you posted with me, whenever we did our last podcast, you were

01:37:28.760 mobbed quite viciously online.

01:37:30.720 And that was not from the left.

01:37:31.780 That was from the radical right.

01:37:33.580 And so this is from these mostly disenchanted young men, frankly, that are so incensed by

01:37:39.640 the idea that you might be supportive of me.

01:37:42.780 Because they're mad at me for some reason.

01:37:44.580 They're not even sure why.

01:37:45.600 It's actually one of the more hilarious things about my fight with this group of kind of populist

01:37:49.760 types is that if you actually ask them questions about it, they usually are deriving their

01:37:55.660 hatred from some kind of conspiracy.

01:37:57.140 Like, I worked for the World Economic Forum, or I voted for red flag laws, which, again, 0.94

01:38:01.800 isn't true.

01:38:02.160 I voted the opposite.

01:38:03.560 I'm not part of the World Economic Forum, obviously.

01:38:06.980 They always default to these very strange conspiracies.

01:38:10.220 If they were telling the truth, what they would say is that Dan calls us out.

01:38:13.940 Dan calls us out, and we don't like that.

01:38:16.540 Because fundamentally, we're more mafioso than we are 1776.

01:38:22.520 And fundamentally, it's about loyalty.

01:38:24.600 And you know what?

01:38:25.140 If we want to move the goalposts a little bit and test your loyalty by seeing if you'll

01:38:29.440 say the next thing that is more extreme and more provocative, then we'll test your loyalty.

01:38:35.560 And if you don't concede, well, you're no longer with us. 0.97

01:38:39.160 And worse, if you criticize us for it, well, we'll do everything we can to destroy you. 0.95

01:38:43.480 Because you've got too much influence, and we don't like that.

01:38:45.560 So that's what's fundamentally behind that kind of mobbing on the radical, right?

01:38:51.340 It's a loyalty test more than anything else.

01:38:53.780 And what's frustrating about it is there's very little separating us policy-wise.

01:38:59.080 Again, I think the foreign policy is probably the key thing.

01:39:02.100 But other than that, it's difficult to find actual differences.

01:39:05.660 Well, you told me that you've actually faced—this isn't the case for me.

01:39:11.120 I've faced way more trouble from the radicals on the left than the radicals on the right.

01:39:16.580 I've had my trouble with the radicals on the right.

01:39:18.700 But, you know, there's no radicals on the right causing trouble in the universities.

01:39:24.420 Like, zero.

01:39:25.140 And so, because mostly I was in the universities, all the enmity that was devoted towards me

01:39:30.500 and everything that's undermined my profession and my ability to conduct my business has come from the radical left.

01:39:36.260 But the radical right has come after me now and then.

01:39:38.540 But you told me that, especially in more recent years,

01:39:43.300 you've actually had more trouble from the radical right than from the radical left.

01:39:47.280 Well, I don't know if it's more—it's not like I'm—it's not like I'm popular with the left.

01:39:52.820 You know, and part of it's like it's primary season and this is just what happens.

01:39:56.440 But I did tap into—I tapped a nerve with some of these people.

01:40:00.020 And a very—because they're threatened.

01:40:02.760 They're threatened that what I want, which is the Reagan revolution of conservatism,

01:40:08.500 is going to displace what they want, which is—I mean, it's hard to say who their hero is.

01:40:14.420 Again, I don't actually even think it's Trump.

01:40:16.000 Well, I think their hero is probably something like a warrior type, you know,

01:40:21.180 like at least in imagination.

01:40:23.100 And I think you fit that archetype.

01:40:25.100 I know, I know, I know, I know.

01:40:27.340 But that—

01:40:27.620 But they seem to really hate any veterans who—because veterans tend to have a sense of loyalty to institutions

01:40:33.080 and they hate that.

01:40:35.240 And they—it's a strange thing.

01:40:38.280 Whatever the right-wing populists are.

01:40:39.440 I actually call them the woke right.

01:40:41.540 They're woke because they share so many similarities with the left.

01:40:44.620 And I went over some of them.

01:40:46.100 But, you know, some of those similarities, again, are an untethering from longstanding principles.

01:40:52.560 Again, it's about winning in the moment.

01:40:53.960 It's about that hyper-loyalty.

01:40:55.720 It's contrarianism for the sake of being a contrarian.

01:40:59.560 Okay, so that might be part of it, eh?

01:41:01.240 That might be part of it, then.

01:41:02.480 Because if the moral virtue is to be derived from merely being contrary right to the point of conspiratorial thinking,

01:41:11.860 and then they run across someone like you who is capable of being contrary but who isn't conspiratorial or contrary in an arbitrary sense,

01:41:21.260 and then you say, well, here's the limits to being contrary, well, then that's annoying.

01:41:26.980 Because what that means is that you make a better moral case for your stalwart reasonableness

01:41:33.480 than they can make for their arbitrary contrariness.

01:41:38.100 And that arbitrary contrariness, that's just a kind of—that's the kind of outrage that you already described.

01:41:43.080 It's, look how virtuous I am because I'm so upset about this.

01:41:46.540 I'm so upset I want to tear everything down.

01:41:48.980 Well, how come you're—how are you different than a radical Marxist, then?

01:41:53.720 Because they want the same bloody thing, and for the same moral reasons.

01:41:58.120 And I'm unconvinced that many of the people that are the loudest on this, they usually have a—

01:42:03.040 when I say the people, who am I talking about?

01:42:04.780 I'm talking about mostly, like there are some politicians that fit this bill,

01:42:08.940 but mostly I'm talking about influencers who run Instagram accounts or run Twitter accounts.

01:42:13.080 Maybe they're—maybe they write for some sort of fringy online website, whatever it is.

01:42:19.200 Maybe they're a Fox News host named Tucker Carlson.

01:42:23.460 In any case, their goal—their goal is contrarianism for the sake of it.

01:42:31.100 And the word outsider means everything to them.

01:42:34.120 And so they create this incentive structure because they know that the people respond to words like outsider

01:42:40.800 for some of the reasons that we're talking about, right?

01:42:43.580 Because, like, everybody who wants to go to Washington just talked about how corrupt Washington is.

01:42:47.500 And so people have this belief that it's terrible.

01:42:51.220 And then, you know, it's just like self-fulfilling prophecy.

01:42:53.620 It's a pretty bad situation that we're in.

01:42:55.660 And we've cast a lot of doubt on the integrity of the institution there by nature of this election process and how we talk about it.

01:43:04.740 But I don't think that these people really believe a lot of the words that they're saying.

01:43:08.060 I believe that they're engaging in the incentive structure just to be contrarians

01:43:12.680 because there is an incentive structure there.

01:43:14.660 It's good for their business.

01:43:15.600 Well, sometimes, Dan, sometimes being a rebel is the most honorable thing you can do.

01:43:23.140 But almost never.

01:43:25.660 But sometimes it is because you're standing up against the mob, you know.

01:43:29.560 And you said, as part of the SEAL code, or at least associated with it, is that you can be a rebel but not a mutineer.

01:43:37.040 It's like, so you're a rebel when you really need to be.

01:43:40.680 And the thing is, if you're a rebel when you really need to be, and I think you are exactly that,

01:43:44.960 then that casts a dim light on those who are just rebels all the time

01:43:48.760 and who are bringing to themselves the moral virtue that's attendant on the stance of the rebel.

01:43:54.500 Right?

01:43:55.660 Because that has to be done judiciously.

01:43:57.900 Like, exceptionally judiciously.

01:43:59.640 Because most of the time, if you believe something that everyone doesn't believe, you're wrong.

01:44:05.000 Most of the time.

01:44:06.520 Sometimes everyone is wrong.

01:44:09.020 But boy, that better not be the case very often.

01:44:12.660 And if it is the case, and you're the one who's opposing that, that's not a place you want to be,

01:44:17.040 even though that's a place you need to be.

01:44:19.040 And there is virtue in that.

01:44:20.960 But so, well, I think the reason you're so annoying to these people is because, as far as I can tell,

01:44:27.080 I hate to compliment people, because it's worse than an insult in some sense.

01:44:30.780 But I do always get the sense, talking to you, that you're the real thing, you know.

01:44:35.120 You've been fire-hardened in a very interesting way.

01:44:38.140 And so, these rebel types who view themselves as saviors of the institutions or of the democracy,

01:44:44.020 they'd like to have you in their camp, but they don't, because you're not that guy.

01:44:47.920 And I think that's very galling.

01:44:49.680 Because it also casts them in an extremely dim light.

01:44:53.460 And they feel betrayed.

01:44:54.200 And one of the worst human emotions you can feel is betrayal.

01:44:56.500 Because they had this ideal that you were going to be that 100% of the time rebel.

01:45:01.580 It's a good way to put it.

01:45:03.120 And when I say, well, no, I mean, I use deductive reasoning.

01:45:06.440 I analyze a situation in front of me.

01:45:08.580 And I say, look, this is worth your time fighting.

01:45:12.060 And this isn't as true as you think.

01:45:14.580 I'm telling somebody who holds a very strong belief about a given issue that it isn't as

01:45:19.340 true as they think or that the situation that they're angry about isn't as true as they think.

01:45:23.620 I get this a lot about world economic form.

01:45:26.380 I mean, it's a terrible institution.

01:45:28.260 But I ask people, like, is it worth 100% of your time?

01:45:31.480 Is the conspiratorialness about me associated with this really worth your time?

01:45:35.320 What effect does this thing have on you?

01:45:38.540 And once people get wrapped up into it, they get wrapped up into it.

01:45:42.540 So I thought I would, if you don't mind, because we're coming to the end of this, I thought I

01:45:46.600 might close with some real practical advice you gave.

01:45:50.000 So hopefully some of the people who are listening to our conversation are people who are attracted

01:45:58.660 to and compelled by and even engrossed in some sense in this more conspiratorial and destructive

01:46:04.800 thinking that's characteristic of the radical right.

01:46:08.060 And so we might say to those people, look, you have a concern with the fact that there

01:46:15.640 is corruption and that it should be ameliorated.

01:46:17.980 And you don't want to inflate your moral virtue in relationship to that because, like, who

01:46:22.340 do you think you are and how good do you think you are?

01:46:25.100 You could do something instead that would be more productive.

01:46:28.500 And so we could say, first, political organizations at every level, so like business communities

01:46:35.680 in small towns and churches and these low-level distributed but crucial social networks are

01:46:43.240 desperate to have people come and participate.

01:46:45.900 So you could get involved civically.

01:46:48.140 And you should because without that immediate, practical, on-the-ground civic involvement, the

01:46:53.360 whole bloody game grinds to a halt.

01:46:55.220 And then you say, all right, you want to do something political, young people, and listen

01:47:01.480 to this, young people, politics, take it slow.

01:47:07.680 Don't choose a side.

01:47:11.160 Just keep learning and take pride in having an open mind.

01:47:16.260 That's a humility, right, that allows for learning.

01:47:19.040 You're young.

01:47:19.580 You don't know anything.

01:47:20.920 The world's really complicated.

01:47:22.120 It's even more complicated than you think, even if you think it's complicated.

01:47:25.740 But you could learn and you could get better.

01:47:28.380 Your opinion on complex matters should come to you slowly over time within the context

01:47:35.120 of new facts and experiences.

01:47:39.060 And you put that in a broader context, too, which is attention to detail.

01:47:43.280 So you imagine in your life, especially if you don't have a lot of authority, especially

01:47:48.600 if you're not high up in a given hierarchy, a lot of your life is mundane detail.

01:47:53.360 And you might think, well, what's the value of that?

01:47:56.280 And the answer is, well, those details are more important than you think if you pay attention

01:48:01.140 to them.

01:48:01.500 And so you say, attention to detail is a mantra in the SEAL teams that is repeated over and

01:48:11.320 over for good reason.

01:48:13.660 Details matter in life and death situations.

01:48:18.960 You ever wonder why we're always doing inspections in the military?

01:48:23.020 Why do we obsess over perfect creases, shiny shoes, and crisply made beds?

01:48:30.980 It's simple.

01:48:32.800 And this is a call to adventure and duty and to proper attention to the details of your

01:48:37.460 life.

01:48:37.940 If you can't get the small stuff right, if it's beneath you, let's say, you won't get

01:48:43.940 the big stuff right.

01:48:44.860 We allow ourselves to sweat the small stuff, to pay attention to detail, because we strive

01:48:51.720 to be dutiful and detail-oriented.

01:48:56.480 And so I thought that was extremely important.

01:48:58.700 I've tried to do this to some degree in my books and my writings, just tell people, you

01:49:02.580 know, that you have us.

01:49:04.560 Here's another thought I had, Dan.

01:49:06.600 You tell me what you think about this.

01:49:09.000 So imagine you're trying to go out there and figure out what size dragon you should be

01:49:12.820 confronting.

01:49:15.620 So how do you figure that out?

01:49:16.920 How big are you?

01:49:18.280 What challenge should you take on?

01:49:20.440 Well, you want to take on a pretty big challenge, a challenging challenge, but you don't want

01:49:23.840 to get eaten and burnt.

01:49:25.820 And so how do you figure that out?

01:49:27.460 Well, so imagine that you take on a dragon.

01:49:29.420 Maybe it's the environmental apocalypse.

01:49:32.220 And you see the environmental apocalypse looming in front of you, and it scares you so badly

01:49:37.100 that you're paralyzed in fear, and now you're willing to use compulsion.

01:49:43.560 Right?

01:49:44.180 So power starts to attract you.

01:49:46.220 I would say, you've just learned that that dragon is too big for you because you're paralyzed,

01:49:53.120 and because now you're willing to turn to tyranny as an antidote to your terror.

01:49:58.920 As opposed to persuasion.

01:50:00.260 That's exactly right.

01:50:02.320 As opposed to a persuasive strategy forward, which you would be able to formulate if you

01:50:09.220 were the size of the apocalypse.

01:50:12.160 And so then I would say, well, if you're terrified out of your mind by the looming catastrophe,

01:50:17.920 and you're willing to turn to tyranny to deal with it because it's an emergency, and we have

01:50:22.040 to do what's necessary now, and we have to make everyone comply, then that's evidence

01:50:26.400 from your own nervous system that you've bitten off more than you can chew, and that you are

01:50:31.740 possessed by pride as a consequence.

01:50:34.560 And so then what would you do?

01:50:35.780 It's like, I don't know exactly.

01:50:37.360 Because when I was dealing with my clinical clients, and they were looking for a pathway

01:50:42.040 forward, we were always trying to figure out, well, what should you do next?

01:50:46.500 And the answer was always, well, if it's too terrifying, you won't do it.

01:50:53.520 So let's set you a challenge.

01:50:55.460 Maybe you're socially anxious.

01:50:56.780 You have to say hi to the storekeeper in your corner store, and you have to shake his hand,

01:51:03.000 and you have to say your name.

01:51:05.440 So why don't you go do that?

01:51:07.000 Try that this week, and come back and tell me what happened.

01:51:09.760 And you come back and say, well, I was so afraid I couldn't do it.

01:51:14.200 It's like, okay, man, the dragon's too big.

01:51:18.100 How about you go into the store, and you just say hi?

01:51:21.740 Try that this week.

01:51:23.020 And then you scale back, you see, you scale back on dragon size, till you find one that

01:51:28.540 you could beat, and you could get some treasure from, but that doesn't paralyze you into immobility,

01:51:35.740 and force you to rely on compulsion.

01:51:37.800 Well, this thing, the too big of a dragon pathology seems to be a pretty good, I think,

01:51:44.560 description of our politics, where nobody's interested unless it's the big thing that's

01:51:49.780 highly unattainable.

01:51:51.520 You know, on the left, that's a good one.

01:51:53.580 It's climate change, right?

01:51:54.700 It's fixing everybody's problems.

01:51:56.860 It's fixing inequality.

01:51:57.920 It's these big, enormous...

01:51:59.620 It's fixing everything now at all costs.

01:52:02.720 We have to fix everything right now at whatever cost.

01:52:06.980 It's like, nope.

01:52:08.160 Otherwise, we're in crisis.

01:52:09.900 And a key attribute of that is to exaggerate the crisis as much as possible.

01:52:15.560 Well, and the moral hazard there is, well, look at me.

01:52:18.680 I see this emergency, and here it comes, and it's a big emergency.

01:52:22.080 And wouldn't it be something if I had enough power?

01:52:25.500 And I'm the only one who can do anything about it, so why don't you just cede all the

01:52:29.080 power to me?

01:52:30.600 Because I'm going to take emergency action.

01:52:32.600 It's like, that's a bit of a moral hazard, don't you think?

01:52:35.040 Isn't it just kind of a little bit too convenient that your moral claim happens to dovetail with

01:52:40.480 your demand for, what, unlimited power?

01:52:43.920 You know, Trudeau said in Canada, our prime minister, he said he admired the Chinese Communist

01:52:48.740 Party because they could take efficient action on the climate front.

01:52:51.960 It's like, okay, okay, fair enough.

01:52:57.300 Maybe you mean that.

01:52:59.500 There's some prominent Americans who've said the same thing.

01:53:01.780 Um, you know, it's terrifying.

01:53:04.720 And when you were talking about attention to detail and my advice for young people got

01:53:08.600 me thinking, I listened to last night to your podcast with, um, uh, the presidents of Hillsdale

01:53:13.880 College.

01:53:14.500 Oh, Arndt, Larry Arndt.

01:53:16.540 Yeah.

01:53:17.160 And he was talking about how the students were demanding that he debate them about a constitutional

01:53:23.400 convention.

01:53:23.940 And I loved, I loved how he, how he walked through this.

01:53:27.840 Um, it, it, it, it struck home with me because there is this tendency again, because of this

01:53:33.280 loyalty to this constant loyalty testing, this constant, this constant competition on the

01:53:37.800 right of who's the most conservative.

01:53:39.200 It's like, well, I want to secure the border.

01:53:40.900 Well, I want to, I want to stop all immigration. 1.00

01:53:43.180 So I'm more conservative.

01:53:44.460 Right.

01:53:44.880 And so there's this very strange tit for tat.

01:53:47.060 And then you start to question like, what, I'm sorry, what, what principle are you tethered

01:53:50.980 to and how does that make you more conservative?

01:53:53.740 And so that's apparently, that's the story he was telling basically, but he, he didn't

01:53:57.280 say this, but it was pretty obviously true.

01:53:59.120 And I, that the young people inflamed with, with being the best conservative they can be

01:54:04.920 say, look, if you're a real conservative, you want to go real hardcore, you want a constitutional

01:54:09.140 convention.

01:54:10.820 And the way he dealt with that was saying, look, I'll debate you on this, but let it go

01:54:16.140 after that.

01:54:16.960 Let's not spend too much time on this because the truth is you don't really know what

01:54:20.920 you're talking about.

01:54:21.460 He didn't say that.

01:54:22.180 I'm not, I'm not quoting him, but, but it gets to my point of by definition, you can't

01:54:28.100 possibly know really what you're talking about.

01:54:31.360 You just don't have the life experience for it.

01:54:33.660 Well, that's why you're a student.

01:54:35.380 Like why the hell are you at the university?

01:54:37.780 If you're not a student, like, are you a student or a professor?

01:54:41.720 If you're a student, then you don't know.

01:54:43.800 And if you don't know, you don't know, then you're not a student and you should be somewhere

01:54:47.260 else.

01:54:47.600 And the professors too, it's like, are you the guy who knows at least something or not?

01:54:52.680 Are you the equal of the students?

01:54:54.680 Well, then why are they paying you?

01:54:56.520 It's like, why is the hierarchy set up this way?

01:54:59.140 And the thing is, there is nothing more demoralizing you can tell young people than you already know

01:55:04.480 everything you need to know now.

01:55:06.440 I mean, Jesus, I don't want to know that about me.

01:55:08.740 It's like, I know everything I need to know now.

01:55:11.540 It's like, what the hell am I going to do for the next 20 years?

01:55:13.740 Then there's no horizon of ignorance to overcome.

01:55:18.040 I do think there's a crisis of humility in our current generation.

01:55:23.940 And I do think it comes from exposure to the internet and exposure to quite a bit information

01:55:28.580 and a total lack of gratitude and appreciation for elder wisdom.

01:55:33.820 And look, there's an argument to be made that many, say the baby boomer generation really

01:55:38.540 screwed some things up for us.

01:55:40.340 But there's a counter-argument to be made that this is still the best time to be alive

01:55:43.580 in history.

01:55:44.300 That's an important counter-argument, the whole best time in history argument.

01:55:49.140 And it's just as having a sense of humility about what state you're really in and what

01:55:54.240 you really know.

01:55:54.980 And there's a calming factor to that, too, that's a preventative measure to outrage culture.

01:56:01.560 Because if you do think you know everything and you're so self-righteous that you'll die

01:56:04.780 for that belief, well, then you're going to be pretty mad about it.

01:56:08.760 And you're going to tweet about it.

01:56:10.340 And you're going to chastise others who don't necessarily agree with you or have some questions,

01:56:14.320 at least, as to why you feel so strongly about this.

01:56:16.840 And so that outrage also serves as a shortcut to argumentation.

01:56:20.720 And that's pretty dangerous, too.

01:56:22.100 And on the right, what's happened is, again, that shortcut is usually some kind of epithet

01:56:29.080 like rhino, or I'm more conservative than you.

01:56:31.880 So as opposed to an actual argument about, say, whether a constitutional convention makes

01:56:35.260 sense to deliver our principles or makes sense for moving the ball forward on the field,

01:56:41.080 which is a perfectly fine conversation to have, it just becomes about who's more conservative,

01:56:46.180 which is really just a form of insulting somebody in order to bypass strong debate.

01:56:52.100 Well, I really enjoyed your book.

01:56:55.280 Thank you, Jordan.

01:56:55.880 It means a lot to me.

01:56:56.660 And oh, I should also point out for everybody who's listening is that, Dan, maybe you can

01:57:01.520 say a few words about this.

01:57:02.680 You have a youth conference every year.

01:57:05.320 You want to just talk about that?

01:57:06.460 Maybe we'll close with that.

01:57:07.740 Because this is something you do that's quite unique.

01:57:10.080 And I think it's quite remarkable.

01:57:11.540 And it's also fun.

01:57:13.460 It's leavened with that sense of humor that we described earlier.

01:57:16.300 And it's an invitation to young people to participate civically in a positive manner that isn't a

01:57:23.320 hallmark greeting card, too.

01:57:24.620 No, no, I love doing it.

01:57:27.360 This will be our third year doing it in October.

01:57:29.820 You appeared virtually last year and answered questions for a lot of the students.

01:57:34.420 Last year, we also had Ben Shapiro.

01:57:36.140 We had Michael Knowles.

01:57:37.340 Megyn Kelly came.

01:57:39.060 This year is going to be even more eclectic.

01:57:42.440 We're going to have Dennis Prager.

01:57:45.560 And we'll have Michael Knowles again.

01:57:46.920 We'll have conservative comedians like J.P. Sears.

01:57:49.760 We'll also have Randy Hauser play.

01:57:51.040 He's a big country star.

01:57:51.840 He'll play Saturday night.

01:57:52.800 So I want it to be fun.

01:57:54.380 We have the Wolf of Wall Street, Jordan Belfort coming.

01:57:56.620 He's going to give you financial advice.

01:57:58.040 So it's just what I'm trying to create here is a conservative TED Talk series, more or less,

01:58:02.680 because every speaker, I work with them.

01:58:04.980 I'm going to make sure we have a particular message to deliver.

01:58:08.520 And this is different from most conservative events, because if you go to most conservative

01:58:11.660 events, it's political speech after political speech.

01:58:14.400 I'm not so sure you're getting a hugely different message with each one.

01:58:19.260 They can be fun.

01:58:20.100 I'm just different from those things, right?

01:58:23.880 I'm not criticizing, say, what CPAC does.

01:58:26.160 It's for a different reason.

01:58:28.900 I want a liberal student to be able to walk into my event and come away thinking, those 0.97

01:58:33.020 conservatives aren't as evil and crazy as I thought they were.

01:58:36.380 I want that to be possible.

01:58:38.340 And more importantly, I want, because it's majority conservative students coming to this,

01:58:41.800 I want them to walk away with better ideas and better ways to formulate their ideas.

01:58:46.880 Because a lot of people these days, when I tell young kids, don't make decisions too

01:58:52.220 early.

01:58:52.640 Don't adhere too quickly to an ideology.

01:58:55.840 Because what a lot of people end up doing is putting on a red jersey or a blue jersey

01:58:59.400 and then screaming, OK, wait, wait, now what do I say and why do I say it?

01:59:03.840 After they put on the jersey.

01:59:05.600 And that's just not how it's supposed to work, right?

01:59:07.440 It should take a while for you to get to the decision of what team you want to be on.

01:59:11.840 And this is why the radical left and radical right have such similar traits.

01:59:16.440 Because on the radical right, they're wearing red jerseys, but they're basically Bernie bros.

01:59:21.220 They have the same disposition, the same kind of animated thought processes.

01:59:26.860 And that's a problem.

01:59:28.180 And so I want people to have a better idea of how to work through those things.

01:59:32.360 This year, I'm actually upping the age too.

01:59:34.080 If you're older, you can just pay money and come to it.

01:59:36.580 So I really want to open it up.

01:59:39.120 It's really fun.

01:59:40.400 And I hope you'll appear at least virtually this year as well.

01:59:43.340 Yeah, well, I'd like to attend.

01:59:44.660 I think I'll definitely attend virtually.

01:59:47.320 I'd like to attend in person at some point.

01:59:49.300 I think I'm touring.

01:59:50.420 But I do think, too, that on the conservative front, I mean, you're an interesting figure

01:59:56.340 because you're an adventurous guy and you're a creative guy.

01:59:58.780 And you've got a wicked sense of humor and a real sense of fun.

02:00:01.200 And, you know, that adds that kind of libertarian spice in some sense to that conservative persona.

02:00:07.940 And so there's a nice balance of tree and snake in that combination.

02:00:14.880 And so I think that really comes out in that youth convention.

02:00:17.760 If you're interested in the Youth Summit, it's CrenshawYouthSummit.com.

02:00:21.220 That was the only thing I realized we left out.

02:00:25.580 CrenshawYouthSummit.com.

02:00:26.880 Well, thank you.

02:00:27.860 And like I said, I really appreciated your book.

02:00:29.900 And also the broader philosophical and motivational context.

02:00:35.460 That needs to be addressed because the fundamental culture war isn't happening within the political domain. 0.98

02:00:40.400 It's superordinate to that.

02:00:42.560 And I see your work and the way you conduct yourself in the political domain

02:00:46.160 as reflective of something much deeper and more profound and necessary.

02:00:52.060 Hello, everyone.

02:00:53.080 I would encourage you to continue listening to my conversation with my guest on DailyWirePlus.com.

02:01:00.000 Craig, Craig, Craig.

02:01:02.240 Craig likes it warm.

02:01:03.760 Craig loves 71 degrees Fahrenheit.

02:01:06.660 Craig doesn't understand Fahrenheit.

02:01:08.640 But Craig does like to save money when he's at work.

02:01:11.460 Craig also cares about his carbon footprint.

02:01:13.840 He's so thoughtful, that Craig.

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The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast - September 08, 2022

286. Navy SEAL Mindset ｜ Congressman Dan Crenshaw

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