The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast - 302. Breaking Good ｜ Michael Franzese

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00:00:57.420 Hello everyone watching on YouTube or listening on my podcast.

00:01:12.480 I have the opportunity today to speak to Michael Franzese, who has an extraordinarily interesting life.

00:01:18.420 One that might be characterized as breaking good.

00:01:22.960 Michael Franzese grew up as the son of the notorious underboss of New York's violent and feared Colombo crime family.

00:01:31.640 Franzese was, quote, one of the biggest money earners the mob had seen since Al Capone, end quote.

00:01:38.340 And the youngest individuals on Fortune magazine's list of the 50 biggest mafia bosses, ranking number 18, just five behind John Gotti.

00:01:50.240 At his most affluent, Franzese generated an estimated $5 to $8 million per week from legal and illegal businesses.

00:01:59.340 It was a life filled with power, luxury, and deadly violence.

00:02:04.120 Michael's story is a modern-day Damascus road experience.

00:02:09.380 From his early days in the mob and rise to power, to God's leading him to do the unthinkable, quit the mob and follow Christ.

00:02:17.700 In fact, nobody of Franzese's rank had ever just walked away and lived.

00:02:24.060 Michael's compelling story of transformation is featured in his autobiography, Blood Covenant.

00:02:29.480 He's also written several other books, including This Thing of Ours, and The Good, The Bad, and The Forgiven.

00:02:37.520 He's appeared widely in both Christian and secular high-profile media, including The 700 Club, Life Magazine, Vanity Fair, Sports Illustrated, GQ, and many others.

00:02:49.720 Thank you very much, Mr. Franzese, for agreeing to talk to me today.

00:02:53.900 Well, thanks for having me, Jordan.

00:02:55.440 Yeah, well, this should be a very interesting conversation.

00:02:57.900 So, let's go back to the beginning, I guess.

00:03:03.440 You had quite a, let's say, checkered past decades ago.

00:03:08.280 You were involved in organized crime at the highest level of organization, really, and I suppose in your way, very successful at it.

00:03:18.560 And so, let's start with that.

00:03:20.800 Maybe we could go back even to your teenage years.

00:03:24.760 I mean, tell me about your family and how this all came about.

00:03:30.100 Well, I was born in Brooklyn, New York, and my dad, Sonny Franzese, was the underboss of the Colombo family, one of the five New York mafia Cousinostra families.

00:03:40.920 And my dad was a very, very high-profile figure at the time, during the 50s and 60s and right into the 70s.

00:03:50.300 He was very well known, and he was a major target of law enforcement, a major target of the media back then.

00:03:56.760 I always say he was kind of like the John Gotti of his day.

00:03:59.340 I'm sure most people know of John.

00:04:00.820 And so, I grew up in an atmosphere, Jordan, where I loved my dad very much.

00:04:07.580 He was a good father.

00:04:08.700 He originally didn't want this life for me.

00:04:10.800 He wanted me to go to school and be a doctor.

00:04:12.780 He wanted me to stay off the street.

00:04:14.840 But we were surrounded by law enforcement all the time, and I always viewed them as the enemy because they were trying to harass my family, harass my father.

00:04:24.020 And I grew up with people always talking negative about law enforcement, so on and so forth.

00:04:29.680 And I experienced that from the time I was four or five years old up until, you know, my teenage years and then after that.

00:04:37.320 And it took a real turn of events.

00:04:39.300 During the 60s, my dad was indicted several times.

00:04:42.040 He was indicted three times in the state of New York for some very serious crimes, grand larceny and murder.

00:04:48.420 He went to trial on all three of those charges and was acquitted.

00:04:52.080 He was found not guilty.

00:04:52.960 But then in 1966, he was indicted in federal court for masterminding a nationwide string of bank robberies.

00:05:00.580 After a lengthy trial, he gets convicted.

00:05:03.140 In 1967, they sentenced him to 50 years in prison.

00:05:06.280 It was, I believe, the longest sentence for a bank robbery conspiracy case ever given up to that point.

00:05:11.920 In 1970, he loses all his appeals and they ship him off to Leavenworth Penitentiary to do his time.

00:05:19.020 And I was a pre-med student at that point at Hofstra University in New York.

00:05:24.320 But when my dad went away, which was essentially a death sentence, he was 50 years old when he went in.

00:05:30.240 We figured he had 50 on top of that.

00:05:32.120 He'd never come out of prison alive.

00:05:33.660 And then Joe Colombo, who was the boss of the Colombo family, somebody we knew very well, he kind of took me under his wing.

00:05:41.180 I would meet a lot of my dad's friends.

00:05:43.340 At the time, Joe Colombo had started the Italian-American Civil Rights League, which was supposed to, you know, safeguard Italian-Americans from being harassed by the FBI.

00:05:54.120 And I got very active in the league.

00:05:56.020 I saw it as a way to help my dad.

00:05:57.860 And during that time, I was actually picketing the FBI building in Manhattan and being a very active participant in what Joey was trying to do, Colombo was trying to do.

00:06:08.120 And I lost interest in school because a lot of my father's friends were telling me, if you don't go to school and help your father out, he's going to die in prison.

00:06:16.880 You know, I believe my father was innocent because I asked him, I said, Dad, bank robbery.

00:06:22.120 It doesn't make sense.

00:06:23.280 And, you know, he looked at me, we were in the visiting room at Leavenworth, and he said, son, I'm not a bank robber.

00:06:28.320 He said, I was framed on these charges.

00:06:30.540 And he said, we got to work to get these charges overturned or I'm going to spend the rest of my life in prison.

00:06:36.120 And it was a turning point for me during that visit when I said, look, I'm not going to school anymore.

00:06:41.160 If I don't help you out, you're going to die in here.

00:06:43.600 And basically at that point, he proposed me for membership in the Colombo family.

00:06:48.220 I was 21 years old when that happened.

00:06:51.000 And that's when my life started to take a shift.

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00:08:29.380 So, what did being inducted into the Colombo family mean?

00:08:38.040 Well, you know, you can't just go up to somebody in that life and say, hey, I'd like to join.

00:08:43.500 You know, somebody has to propose you, vouch for you, say you have what it takes to be a member.

00:08:49.400 And for me, it was my dad.

00:08:51.140 He proposed me to membership.

00:08:52.480 And, you know, there is a process to becoming a made man or an official member of that life.

00:09:00.440 And you go through a process where you have to prove yourself worthy of becoming a member.

00:09:05.660 And, you know, it could have been, you know, there were guys at the time, Jordan, they had an expression in the life where the books were closed.

00:09:14.360 From the 1950s up until that point in the mid-70s, they weren't officially bringing any more members into that life because it was security reasons.

00:09:24.020 And this was all five families in New York kept to that.

00:09:28.740 But then they opened the books again in the 70s.

00:09:31.660 So, there were guys actually waiting 20 years to become members of that life.

00:09:37.200 Just, you know, they were just there, 20 years.

00:09:40.220 For me, it was a two-and-a-half-year, three-year process because, like I said, they had opened the books.

00:09:45.640 So, you know, you have to prove yourself worthy.

00:09:48.780 There's a lot of discipline in that life, a lot of authority, a lot of alleged respect.

00:09:54.560 You know, you had a meeting at 8 o'clock.

00:09:56.200 If you weren't there at 7.30, you were late.

00:09:58.840 You know, it can never be late in that life.

00:10:00.660 And you just had to follow the orders, whatever you were told to do.

00:10:03.880 You know, it's difficult for me to say this, but, you know, I like to be honest about it.

00:10:08.040 You know, that life at times is violent.

00:10:10.380 And if you're part of that life, you're part of the violence.

00:10:13.440 And it took me two-and-a-half years before I proved myself worthy.

00:10:17.480 And it was actually Halloween night in 1975 when I took an oath and became a sworn made member of the Colombo family.

00:10:26.760 And what sort of things did you have to do?

00:10:29.160 What sort of things were you called upon to do in order to be deemed worthy of membership?

00:10:34.020 Well, again, you know, when I first, after my dad proposed me, it was about two weeks later when an official in the family, a captain, picked me up.

00:10:45.100 And he took me to see the boss.

00:10:46.860 Now, I don't know if you're aware, but Joe Colombo had been shot, seriously wounded, at a big rally that we had in Columbus Circle back in 1971.

00:10:56.560 He eventually died from the wounds, and I was about 12 steps away from him when that happened on the stage.

00:11:02.580 It was kind of the first eye-opening experience that I had in that life.

00:11:07.040 And, you know, I was told straight out, you know, they said to me, do you want to become a member of this life?

00:11:16.040 And I said, yes.

00:11:16.800 And they said, well, here's the deal.

00:11:18.360 It was a new boss that had taken over.

00:11:20.120 His name was Tom DiBella.

00:11:21.660 Tom has passed on now.

00:11:23.620 And he said to me, here's the deal.

00:11:25.320 From now on, 24 hours a day, seven days a week, you're on call to serve this family, the Colombo family.

00:11:30.980 That means if your mother is sick and she's dying and you're at her bedside and we call you to service, you leave your mother's side.

00:11:37.420 You come and serve us from now on.

00:11:38.980 We're number one in your life before anything and everything.

00:11:42.120 And when and if we feel you deserve this privilege, this honor to become a member, we'll let you know.

00:11:46.400 So from that moment on, you have to do whatever you're told to do to prove yourself worthy.

00:11:51.020 And, you know, there was a lot of menial things.

00:11:54.540 You know, there was times I had to drive the boss to a meeting.

00:11:57.200 I sat in the car two, three, four hours, waited for him to come out.

00:12:01.580 You know, God forbid you leave.

00:12:02.720 You go to the restroom, go get a newspaper.

00:12:04.620 He comes out.

00:12:05.280 You're not there.

00:12:06.320 You're in trouble.

00:12:07.100 You know, stuff like that.

00:12:08.060 I know I did that once and paid the price.

00:12:10.420 I had a real tongue lashing.

00:12:12.720 You know, just a lot of things like that.

00:12:14.460 I mean, a lot of times you're just really hanging out and observing and watching and listening.

00:12:19.720 And, you know, I learned to be a very good listener at that point, Jordan.

00:12:22.780 I just listened and observed and seen what it was I need to do and what was it expected of me.

00:12:27.780 And look, you know, again, to be honest, there are times when you're called upon within that life to commit an act of violence.

00:12:35.120 And if you're told to do it, you need to do it.

00:12:36.900 And before you had gone into medical school and then decided to take this turn in your life, had you been involved in anything that was violent as a child or a teenager?

00:12:49.580 I never was involved myself.

00:12:51.440 I mean, I had fights, you know.

00:12:52.920 I mean, I had a fight, two or three neighborhood fights.

00:12:56.220 I mean, my ribs were broken once.

00:12:58.220 I got hit with a bat.

00:13:00.540 You know, things like that, scuffles like that, but nothing major.

00:13:03.680 But I witnessed things, you know.

00:13:05.320 My dad was a fairly violent guy.

00:13:08.820 I mean, I saw him hit people.

00:13:12.280 So I witnessed that.

00:13:14.720 I didn't really enjoy seeing it, but I witnessed it one time at a really young age.

00:13:20.100 I think it was 10 or 11 years old, and he had, you know, trouble with somebody on the street.

00:13:25.580 I was driving with him, and he was pretty violent with the guy.

00:13:29.840 How did you react to that when you were 11?

00:13:32.800 It kind of scared me.

00:13:33.740 You know, I didn't see him like that with another guy.

00:13:38.400 So I was a little concerned.

00:13:40.020 I said, hey, you know, in my mind, I guess I was thinking, is this going to get out of hand?

00:13:44.120 What's going to happen?

00:13:45.380 And two fellows that were with my dad walked over to me and said, I was in the car.

00:13:49.560 And they said, Mike, don't worry about it.

00:13:51.200 You probably shouldn't be seeing this, but everything is okay.

00:13:53.820 But it made an impression on me.

00:13:56.620 So, all right.

00:13:57.580 So how far had you gone in medical school?

00:14:00.960 Well, I was a pre-med student.

00:14:02.700 It was my second year.

00:14:03.820 I was a sophomore.

00:14:06.120 Basically, a biology major.

00:14:08.740 And what happened with your father?

00:14:10.420 What happened with your attempts to have his case adjudicated, re-adjudicated?

00:14:15.740 Well, my dad actually did 40 years on that 50.

00:14:19.360 And he was paroled.

00:14:21.220 He made parole because he was under the old law where they still had parole in the federal system.

00:14:26.700 Back then, today, they don't have it.

00:14:28.540 You got to do 85% of your time.

00:14:30.280 But he was under the old law.

00:14:32.300 And after 10 years, I actually did get him out on parole.

00:14:35.700 But he kept going back in and always for associating with other felons, somebody alleged to be an organized crime.

00:14:43.060 So he was paroled five times, violated five times, and went back in.

00:14:48.580 And he ended up doing 40 on the 50.

00:14:51.100 He was actually released in 2017 for the last time.

00:14:55.600 He was 100 years old, the date of his release.

00:14:59.200 He was actually the oldest member of that life in America, probably in the world.

00:15:04.180 And he died at the age of 103, just two years ago.

00:15:11.060 So what did it mean to be, in that time, at that time, what did it mean to be part of the Cosa Nostra five families in New York?

00:15:19.860 And why five?

00:15:21.280 And how were they?

00:15:22.880 Were they bonded together or were they competing with one another?

00:15:26.640 Well, they didn't compete with one another.

00:15:28.480 But there were rivalries at the time, but never rivalries that ended up in violence.

00:15:34.980 Because in that life, there's a perception that families used to fight one another.

00:15:40.320 That kind of activity stopped in the 40s.

00:15:44.060 You know, when Lucky Luciano got together and created the commission, and there was kind of a ruling body over the five families, the boss of each family was involved in it.

00:15:55.500 They didn't fight among one another.

00:15:57.560 They settled disputes amicably.

00:15:59.520 Whenever there was a war in that family, it was always a civil war.

00:16:03.260 It was usually for power or leadership.

00:16:05.100 So, but I always say this, Jordan, I believe the golden years, if you want to call them that, of mafia in New York, and maybe probably throughout the United States, was really from the 50s until the mid-80s.

00:16:19.360 In the mid-80s, things started to fall apart when Rudy Giuliani started to really use the racketeering laws and put a lot of guys in prison, created a lot of informants.

00:16:29.500 And that's when the life kind of made a drastic turn, you know, I guess for the better for society, but for the worse for them.

00:16:37.300 But it was a big deal, you know, back then.

00:16:39.880 I mean, we had a lot of power and a lot of control in this country.

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00:17:49.580 Yeah, well, it said in your bio that you, at the height of your activity, you were involved in criminal activity that was generating something between $5 and $8 million a week, and that would be in the 70s, if I've got the timeline correct.

00:18:07.440 Yes.

00:18:07.680 So that's an awful lot of money.

00:18:10.160 So what sort of activities were you overseeing, and what did that overseeing consist of?

00:18:16.340 Well, you know, you kind of find your own level in that life, and I like to explain it this way.

00:18:23.240 There was kind of two types of people in that life.

00:18:26.460 You were either a racketeer or a gangster.

00:18:28.600 A racketeer was a guy that knew how to use that life to benefit him in business and went out and made money not only for himself but for the family.

00:18:39.020 And a gangster was someone that was just not capable of that, and they were kind of a, I guess you can call it a thug.

00:18:45.500 You know, they were the guys who did a lot of the street work.

00:18:48.680 If you were a racketeer, you also had to be a gangster at certain times because you had to do that.

00:18:55.440 You know, that was something you had to do.

00:18:57.080 But normally, they tried to keep the guys that were earning money, you know, earning money because no organization survives without money.

00:19:05.640 So I was fortunate.

00:19:06.840 I knew how to use that life to benefit me in business, and I went on to make a very significant amount of money.

00:19:11.880 What did we do?

00:19:12.980 Just about everybody in that life, you know, in that level is into gambling.

00:19:18.200 Like, I had a lot of bookmakers that were under my control because bookmakers weren't really allowed to operate on the street unless they were some way affiliated with organized crime.

00:19:27.580 We wouldn't let them.

00:19:29.700 You know, I put out money on the street at usurious rates.

00:19:33.540 People couldn't go to a bank, so they would come to me.

00:19:36.480 We did that.

00:19:37.380 And I was, again, I was very aggressive on the street.

00:19:42.640 I worked very hard.

00:19:43.800 And a lot of people would come to me with different schemes.

00:19:46.600 You know, there's a misconception that guys in that life sit in their social clubs and look at the next business that they're going to attack or infiltrate or corrupt in some way.

00:19:57.800 And that happens on occasion, but normally it's someone from the business that would come to us and say, hey, we have a scheme to defraud our company or, you know, our business.

00:20:09.320 Can you help us?

00:20:10.600 And that happened to me quite often.

00:20:12.220 And the biggest thing, you know, to answer your question that I got involved in was I was involved in a scheme to defraud the government out of tax on every gallon of gasoline.

00:20:21.600 And somebody brought the germ of an idea for me, and we created that into a huge, huge enterprise, I would say, where we were generating $8 million to $10 million a week.

00:20:35.140 How was that implemented, that scam on the gasoline tax front?

00:20:40.460 Well, initially in New York and I think throughout the country, the tax on every gallon was collected at the gas station.

00:20:49.400 The gas station operator was obligated to pay the tax.

00:20:53.360 While that was happening, we had 350 or so gas stations that we either owned or operated, and we installed people in all of them.

00:21:01.680 And to make a long story short, you know, it would take the government about 10 months before they would come down on a company that wasn't paying tax.

00:21:09.320 And we had a way to, you know, manipulate them so that it took 10 months.

00:21:14.120 And then they changed the law, and they said that you had to be a licensed wholesaler in order to collect the tax, and then you had to pay the government.

00:21:22.860 Well, I had 18 companies that were licensed to collect tax on every gallon of gasoline, and the same deal.

00:21:29.960 It took them about 10 or 11 months before they came down on us.

00:21:33.600 And we had accountants working for us that were able to keep them at bay for that length of time.

00:21:38.140 And then by the time they would come down on a company, we'd just close the doors, that company would be over, and we'd move to the next license.

00:21:46.460 So we did that for—I ran this operation for almost eight years.

00:21:50.680 So how come the government didn't clue in if they were losing the amount of money that you were siphoning off?

00:21:56.880 You said you ran this repeatedly, so if I've got it right, you set up a company.

00:22:00.520 You had about an 11-month window before the government would come in and enforce its tax collection.

00:22:06.520 So you could collect money for 10 months and then just kill the company and then start another one.

00:22:11.000 Correct.

00:22:11.420 And so—and then you managed to do that for eight years.

00:22:15.620 Yes.

00:22:16.920 So why didn't the government clue in?

00:22:20.060 Well, they couldn't.

00:22:21.060 You know, they were investigating us.

00:22:22.600 They were trying to clue in.

00:22:24.080 They just couldn't figure out how we were doing it or what we were doing.

00:22:26.880 And, you know, it was a pretty sophisticated operation, and we just tried to stay one step ahead of them, which we were able to do.

00:22:34.300 And it lasted that long.

00:22:36.080 I mean, I had an incident once where two FBI agents—I had also a couple of car agencies.

00:22:41.800 I had a Mazda agency and a Chevrolet agency.

00:22:45.400 And they visited me in my offices once, and they brought me outside, and they said,

00:22:48.940 Look, we have an idea what you're doing.

00:22:51.140 We know what you're doing, but we can't figure it out.

00:22:53.660 Just tell us, help us, and we'll give you a pass on all of this.

00:22:57.560 Now, obviously, I knew they weren't going to give me a pass, and I didn't cooperate with them at the time.

00:23:02.440 But they knew something was going down.

00:23:04.180 They just couldn't figure it out.

00:23:05.600 We just stayed ahead of them.

00:23:07.480 And so how did it finally fold up after eight years?

00:23:10.980 Well, my partner, who developed the scheme along with me, he was actually the one that brought me the idea.

00:23:16.140 He had a small operation out in Long Island, and he got in trouble on an unrelated case, a tax issue, a personal tax issue that he had.

00:23:25.480 And at the time, we had a—he was on trial, and we had a compound in Panama.

00:23:32.460 And the reason we had it there is because there was no extradition between Panama and the United States at that point in time.

00:23:39.600 And so he was flying back and forth to Panama, and it was at some point in time when he thought he was going to be convicted on his case, and he didn't want to take the conviction.

00:23:48.120 So he fled to Panama.

00:23:49.220 And the FBI, somehow, they went and kidnapped him in the middle of the night, so they bypassed the extradition laws, and they brought him into Florida.

00:24:01.500 And at that point in time, he agreed to be a cooperating witness against me, and I was the target at that time.

00:24:07.220 I had several investigations going on me at one time.

00:24:10.880 And once he became an informant and started cooperating, he told them how the whole scheme was coming down, and that's when it fell apart.

00:24:17.020 So I'm curious about your personality then and now, I suppose.

00:24:24.360 It seems to me that juggling all these enterprises, each of which has a high probability of collapse and a high probability of investigation, I would think of that as something extraordinarily stressful.

00:24:40.080 And so how is it that you were able to keep your head while you were engaged in these enterprises?

00:24:49.080 And because I can imagine if I was doing that, I would be apprehensive all the time as a consequence of being pursued, let's say.

00:25:00.360 But obviously, you were able to deal with that.

00:25:03.200 And so how were you able to stay composed while engaged in these activities?

00:25:08.800 And why, at that time, did you think it was worth it?

00:25:13.220 Well, you know, that's a good question.

00:25:16.440 I'll tell you, you know, it wasn't only—I was a target of law enforcement from day one because my dad's name was so high profile.

00:25:23.840 I mean, I had—throughout my time in that life, I had 18 arrests.

00:25:28.640 They were on me all the time.

00:25:30.380 I found out—I also had seven indictments.

00:25:32.920 I had five state indictments, and I had two federal racketeering indictments, one that was brought on by Rudy Giuliani.

00:25:39.480 And I went to trial five times.

00:25:41.360 I was either dismissed or acquitted in every case.

00:25:44.420 And so I constantly was under investigation.

00:25:48.400 And on the other hand, you know, when you're in that life, you're constantly watching out for the guy next to you because that's the—that's just the way the life goes.

00:25:59.040 So, you know, I mean, I never analyzed myself and say, how was I able to do this?

00:26:05.040 I think part of it stemmed from, you know, the resentment that I had from law enforcement that, hey, you destroyed my family, you took my father away, and I'm just going to continue on this path.

00:26:16.800 But I will say this, Jordan, you know, people have asked me that many, many times.

00:26:22.920 There were things that I had to do in that life that I was very uncomfortable in doing.

00:26:26.740 I didn't like it.

00:26:27.560 It wasn't part of who I was, I believe.

00:26:30.480 But, you know, in some way, I mean, I just stepped outside of myself because I knew I had to do it or suffered consequences myself.

00:26:39.620 And I did it.

00:26:41.020 And then I sprang back to who I was before that.

00:26:43.780 I mean, I don't know how else to, you know, to say it.

00:26:47.880 Well, you said already that you had constructed a pretty complex identity.

00:26:52.860 You had a two-and-a-half-year apprenticeship.

00:26:55.700 And as you get deeper and deeper into something, that's more and more of who you are.

00:27:02.020 And so the alternative to continuing in that vein is to do something radical, completely radical and different.

00:27:08.940 And that's no easy thing to manage.

00:27:10.700 And I think people do in their lives step outside themselves quite frequently to maintain what they have.

00:27:17.040 So you said part of it was that you had been embattled on the law enforcement front for a very, very long time.

00:27:24.200 And so you were pretty accustomed to that.

00:27:26.400 And that you felt that the law enforcement agencies were enemies.

00:27:30.440 And so was that part of the justification for engaging in those activities?

00:27:38.460 Yes.

00:27:38.900 I mean, I saw law enforcement as they're corrupt.

00:27:42.200 These are not good people.

00:27:44.080 They framed my father.

00:27:45.500 They put him in jail for a crime he didn't commit.

00:27:48.320 It was very destructive to my family.

00:27:50.520 I mean, we had a, you know, I don't know any family of any member of that life, including my own, and not my wife and kids, thank God for that, but mother, father, brothers, and sisters, that hasn't been totally devastated.

00:28:06.220 And I guess I blamed them in a big way early on.

00:28:10.420 I wasn't blaming my father.

00:28:11.980 I was blaming them.

00:28:13.060 And so any time I was able to get over them or fight with them or argue with them, I don't mean argue, verbal argue, but, you know, just, I just did it.

00:28:22.880 I went for it.

00:28:23.660 It was very resentful on my part.

00:28:25.980 I had a real resentment for them.

00:28:27.160 I see.

00:28:27.680 Okay.

00:28:28.680 Okay.

00:28:29.240 Okay.

00:28:29.560 So some of the, I see.

00:28:30.680 So, and so then that also meant that when you're facing prosecution by the law enforcement entities in the judiciary, you're still feeling like you're embattled.

00:28:41.640 And that, that you have a moral obligation in some sense to continue to fight despite the costs.

00:28:49.600 When you, when you look at the situation now, because you're, you're a changed man and we'll get into that.

00:28:55.420 You, you, you talked about viewing law enforcement as an enemy and an enemy worth continually battling against, even at personal cost and not blaming your father.

00:29:06.140 And you said you loved your father and that he was a good father to you.

00:29:09.200 And when you look back on it now, I mean, obviously your father, and correct me at any point if I've got this wrong, but obviously your father was engaged in widespread criminal activity.

00:29:21.700 How have you, how, why was that not an issue when you were young?

00:29:28.420 Why do you think that his guilt on that front was more or less invisible to you?

00:29:32.940 And, and how do you view his participation in these activities and his hand in establishing his destiny, even if he was framed on those charges?

00:29:42.340 How do you view that now?

00:29:43.560 Well, totally different, you know, one of the, you know, I've had many defining moments in my life, but when I stepped away from that life and walked away, I had a lot of trouble, Jordan.

00:29:56.000 I mean, there was a contract on my life because you can't walk away from that life.

00:30:00.420 And everybody thought the, the next step for me would be to be a cooperating witness because that's what happens normally.

00:30:06.840 People don't just walk away.

00:30:08.880 So I, I was in prison at the time and, you know, we can get into that, how that happened.

00:30:13.920 But the law enforcement, the FBI came into the prison and said, there's a contract on your life.

00:30:21.480 You're a dead man anyway, cooperate with us.

00:30:23.680 And they said, and your father went along with the contract. 0.98

00:30:26.480 We got word from our informants.

00:30:28.780 Now, I understood that, you know, I understood that because sometimes in that life,

00:30:33.420 if you propose somebody and that person becomes an informant, well, you could be held responsible.

00:30:40.240 In my case, probably not with my dad because of his reputation there, but it was possible.

00:30:45.260 So I understood what he was doing.

00:30:48.060 It hurt a little bit, but it didn't bother me that much because I understood the life well.

00:30:52.160 And I said, well, these are some of the consequences I'm going to face.

00:30:55.140 I don't believe my father would ever put a gun to my head, but he might have kept quiet, you know, and just, well, hey, my son violated the rules.

00:31:04.420 But it was really later on that I had a conversation with him, and this was many years later after I walked away.

00:31:12.020 It was probably maybe 10 or 12 years ago.

00:31:14.640 And I said to him, I visited him in prison on his last violation, and I said, you know, Dad, our family's destroyed.

00:31:22.980 I mean, my mother, 33 years without a husband, at the end of her life, she died in 2012.

00:31:28.740 Her relationship with my dad can only be described as ugly because she blamed him for everything that went wrong.

00:31:37.060 What went wrong?

00:31:38.160 I had a sister, 27 years old, died of an overdose of drugs.

00:31:42.040 My brother, 25 years, a drug addict.

00:31:44.380 I can't even begin to tell you what he put the family through and me personally trying to keep him alive on the street.

00:31:51.260 Another younger sister, you know, 41 years old, she died of cancer, but she was never mentally stable.

00:31:57.060 And I said, you know, Dad, you've got to claim responsibility for what, you destroyed our family.

00:32:02.560 Because he was asking me, you know, you walked away.

00:32:04.460 Why did you do this?

00:32:05.420 And I said, because I didn't want to put my family through what we went through.

00:32:09.780 And, you know, he looked at me and he said, well, none of this was my fault.

00:32:13.120 I said, well, what do you mean by that?

00:32:15.040 He said, well, I was framed on this case.

00:32:17.460 And I said, Dad, you weren't framed because you were a doctor, a lawyer, or a priest.

00:32:20.940 You were framed because of who we were.

00:32:23.720 I said, you've got to come to terms with that because eventually you were going to go down.

00:32:27.040 He wouldn't accept responsibility.

00:32:28.900 So that's interesting.

00:32:30.420 So, okay, so let's talk about that a little bit because that's extremely interesting.

00:32:36.520 Because you might think that given that he had lived an exceptional criminal life,

00:32:43.060 that he would have been willing in some sense to accept the guilt that would be part and parcel of that.

00:32:49.640 I mean, if you engage in criminal activities, then you're doing criminal things.

00:32:53.220 And obviously that's wrong in some sense, or it wouldn't be called criminal.

00:32:57.900 And you'd think that that would be part of the price you'd pay for whatever success and respect you might generate as a consequence of doing that.

00:33:04.480 Maybe whatever adventure you might have as a consequence of doing that.

00:33:07.860 But the fact that he dwelt on the narrow fact of his innocence in that regard means to me, in some sense,

00:33:15.640 that he was denying his, and I think this is what you're telling me, is that he was denying his culpability.

00:33:22.540 You know, and you often hear that, especially the high-level criminal types are without conscience.

00:33:31.260 But that doesn't seem to be an appropriate description of the situation with your father,

00:33:35.800 because if he was without conscience, he would have just said, 0.99

00:33:38.320 well, of course I was guilty and they framed me, the sons of bitches, but that's exactly what you'd expect. 1.00

00:33:43.680 But, you know, I had it coming to me in some sense because of all the other things I did. 0.98

00:33:47.100 But you said that he was clinging to his innocence and also unwilling to take responsibility for what he had done.

00:33:54.220 And do you think that's an exaggerated version of what you had to do when you stepped outside yourself,

00:34:01.740 so to speak, to commit the sorts of acts that you didn't regard as part and parcel of you?

00:34:07.560 I think it could be described that way, yes.

00:34:10.440 You know, and I got upset with him during that meeting, too, because I said, you know,

00:34:15.480 how could you not claim responsibility for any of this?

00:34:18.820 I said, our family was destroyed, and he refused to do it.

00:34:23.020 He was very—now, again, I don't know if he just couldn't face me and say it.

00:34:28.580 Maybe inwardly I can't look into his heart and his mind, but he was very adamant about, you know, denying it.

00:34:34.780 And maybe in some sense, I don't know, maybe that had a carryover effect on me during my time in that life.

00:34:43.980 Because my dad did teach me one thing.

00:34:46.640 He said to me—well, he taught me a lot of things that I thought were very helpful to me.

00:34:50.540 But one of the things he said is never admit to anything.

00:34:53.160 Never.

00:34:53.980 No matter what.

00:34:54.700 You don't ever admit to anything.

00:34:56.500 Let them prove it.

00:34:57.360 Let somebody else prove it.

00:34:59.320 And I saw that as being wrong later on.

00:35:02.220 But during my time in that life and growing up, that's how I—I would never admit to anything.

00:35:07.560 If you guys want to get me, you've got to get me.

00:35:10.100 I'm not going to help you.

00:35:11.620 So that was my mentality back then.

00:35:14.480 Right.

00:35:15.500 Right.

00:35:15.880 And do you think that did carry—did that also carry over?

00:35:19.740 Do you think—it's hard to practice something without it becoming habit, let's say.

00:35:23.980 And so you might say, well, did that carry over to your attitude to yourself?

00:35:28.080 Because I am very interested in that idea that you brought forward earlier about having to step outside yourself when you saw yourself doing things that you didn't regard as essentially you.

00:35:38.940 You know, it's a strange distinction, right?

00:35:40.640 Because there's the real you that's doing the things that are good, and then there's the sporadic you that are doing terrible things, but that's not really you.

00:35:48.220 There's a line of denial there.

00:35:51.220 And that's not conscienceless in any sense.

00:35:55.120 It's just, in some sense, it's the denial of conscience.

00:35:58.980 And you did say that, you know, your father seemed to manifest the same—manifest the same attitude on a very large scale.

00:36:10.080 When you decided to get out of that criminal life, was that a consequence of willingness to preserve your family from the catastrophes that your birth family had been through?

00:36:25.000 Or was that—to what degree was that also your willingness to look at those things that you'd done and to start seeing them as part of you instead of part of whatever it is that you were being when you weren't being you?

00:36:40.940 Well, you know, there were a couple of things that led to that.

00:36:46.100 You know, Jordan, one of the horrors of that life is that you make a mistake, your best friend walks you into a room, and you don't walk out again.

00:36:56.220 And there was a night when I had that experience.

00:36:58.980 You know, there was a lot of talk about me on the street.

00:37:01.120 I had a very big crew at that time.

00:37:03.740 We were making a lot of money.

00:37:04.980 There was a publication, I think it was Newsday, that wrote a story that said I was getting powerful enough to break away from the Colombo family and start my own family.

00:37:15.240 There was no truth to it.

00:37:16.380 It was a fictional story.

00:37:17.640 You know how the media is.

00:37:19.400 And so guys on the streets start to get a little bit nervous of that, especially my boss at the time.

00:37:24.900 So without going into all the details, unless you wanted me to, I always walked into a room one night, and I didn't think I was going to walk out again.

00:37:33.120 And it was one of the scariest times of my life.

00:37:36.640 It was not heroic that I walked in.

00:37:39.000 It was more robotic.

00:37:40.280 I just said, hey, if this is it, I was such a product mentally.

00:37:43.680 Well, I'd like to hear the details.

00:37:46.780 Tell me what happened.

00:37:47.980 So you were becoming very successful, and a story was generated about you in the press, about your ambitions.

00:37:57.820 And obviously that caused some concern.

00:38:00.700 So yeah, tell me the details.

00:38:02.220 Okay, well, my dad was on parole at the time, and I was a captain in the family.

00:38:07.860 They had elevated me to that position.

00:38:09.720 That's a powerful position, capo regime, captain.

00:38:13.080 And my dad was also a captain.

00:38:14.960 And I went to see him.

00:38:16.720 He sent for me.

00:38:17.420 I went to see him, and we were in the driveway of his house in Long Island.

00:38:21.460 And he said to me, the boss wants to see us tonight.

00:38:23.900 And because my dad was on parole, and I had no record at the time, I drove him everywhere.

00:38:29.280 I tried to shield him from people because he kept getting violated.

00:38:33.300 So wherever he would travel, he would go with me.

00:38:36.500 I'd keep people away from him.

00:38:37.620 So I said, okay, what time do you want me to pick you up?

00:38:40.240 Because we knew it had to be a covert meeting because the boss was also on parole, and we couldn't all get together because there would have been a violation for the two of them.

00:38:48.280 So he said, well, they want to do this differently.

00:38:51.100 They want me to come in first, and they want you to come in second.

00:38:55.020 And I said, well, why do they want to do that?

00:38:57.380 I said, no, we're not going to do that.

00:38:58.960 You know the talk on the street.

00:39:00.360 I said, we're not going to do that.

00:39:01.760 Why would they separate us?

00:39:03.380 I said, we'll go together.

00:39:04.920 Long story short, it was the first time I really had an argument with my dad ever in my life because I always respected him.

00:39:10.880 Even if I disagreed with him, I did it nicely.

00:39:14.000 But he was very adamant, very insistent.

00:39:16.780 He said, we had an order.

00:39:18.600 We got to do it that way.

00:39:19.840 I said, okay.

00:39:21.200 So another captain in the family called me, and he said, meet me in Brooklyn on 18th Avenue.

00:39:28.640 And so I drove in from Long Island.

00:39:31.340 I met him.

00:39:32.380 I parked my car, and I got into his car.

00:39:34.880 Now, this is somebody I knew my whole life.

00:39:36.660 He was another captain, equal rank with me.

00:39:39.400 When I got in the car in the passenger seat, there was somebody sitting behind me who I recognized but I didn't know well.

00:39:45.800 And I started to get a little like, what's going on here?

00:39:49.840 And it was about a 15-minute ride to the house where we were meeting the boss at that time.

00:39:56.240 And we had to do it covert to make sure nobody was following us.

00:39:59.640 It was a summer day in August.

00:40:00.940 And when we parked the car, we get out of the car, and it was about a 30-yard walk from the car down to the basement apartment where we had to go.

00:40:11.080 And I get out of the car, and I start to walk, and the fellow's name was Jimmy.

00:40:14.880 Jimmy, I assume, got behind me, and the other fellow got out behind him.

00:40:18.580 And this was a very bad setup, Jordan.

00:40:20.540 I said, something is dramatically wrong here.

00:40:23.160 I said, this is wrong.

00:40:24.260 And, you know, when I think of this, I'm telling you, every time I think of it, it was that intense for me.

00:40:29.940 I can hear like the crickets chirping, and I see these little lightning bugs that we had at the time in New York.

00:40:37.280 And as I'm walking down there, I'm saying, this is bad.

00:40:40.640 I may not walk out of this room.

00:40:42.000 And I started to get very nervous, scared, started praying.

00:40:46.240 I wasn't a prayful guy at that time, but I started praying.

00:40:48.840 And I knew the setup, you know, walking down those steps, that door opens, and it might be the last thing I ever see.

00:40:57.400 I don't know how I didn't faint when the door opened.

00:40:59.700 But anyway, we go in.

00:41:02.120 I sit with the boss.

00:41:03.220 My father wasn't there.

00:41:05.760 And we go back and forth, back and forth.

00:41:08.040 And they were grilling me over money and all this stuff.

00:41:10.320 And what happened, I started to get mad.

00:41:12.660 I was getting angry.

00:41:14.360 And I realized, you don't ever get angry with the boss.

00:41:17.240 That's a bad move.

00:41:18.140 And I said, look, it looks like I'm walking out of here.

00:41:20.380 Let me just keep my cool, which I did.

00:41:22.680 And when it was over, you know, hey, let's have a glass of wine, and everything is good, and we're hugging.

00:41:27.420 And, you know, I just wanted to leave.

00:41:30.020 So I told Jimmy, the fellow that drove me, I said, Jimmy, drive me back to my car.

00:41:33.260 I got to go to Long Island.

00:41:34.180 It's a long drive.

00:41:34.820 So we get in the car, and I was really just about to, I was very angry with him because this is somebody I knew all my life.

00:41:42.800 And I wanted to tell him, why didn't you prepare me for this?

00:41:45.080 This was serious.

00:41:46.840 And he looked at me, and he said, before you go any further, Michael, he said, I want to tell you this.

00:41:52.160 He said, this was very serious tonight.

00:41:54.240 You held yourself well in there.

00:41:55.560 It could have been a problem.

00:41:57.040 When he said that to me, I got even more upset with him.

00:41:59.340 I said, you're my friend.

00:42:00.520 You don't let me know.

00:42:01.600 You don't prepare me.

00:42:02.500 Give me a hint.

00:42:03.940 And he said, no.

00:42:06.000 And I'm sitting there, and he said something to me that really got to me.

00:42:11.540 He said, if it was the other way around, would you have told me?

00:42:16.420 And I thought about it for a minute, and I honestly said, no, I wouldn't have.

00:42:20.580 He said, well, you know this life is well or better than anybody.

00:42:24.100 You grew up in it.

00:42:25.100 He said, this is the life we lead.

00:42:27.540 And I was in silence for about 10 minutes.

00:42:30.540 I was just thinking about all of this.

00:42:32.480 And then when I went to get out of the car, he grabbed my arm, and he said to me, I want to tell you something.

00:42:37.480 You're not going to like this, but you can take this to the bank.

00:42:40.980 He said it just like that.

00:42:42.100 He said, your father was in there earlier tonight.

00:42:45.120 He didn't help you one bit.

00:42:46.420 He hurt you in there tonight.

00:42:47.660 And I was pretty stunned, I mean, to the point where I couldn't even ask him, what do you mean?

00:42:55.860 But as I was walking back to my car, Jordan, knowing my father so well, I knew what he did.

00:43:00.820 He didn't help me.

00:43:03.340 He said, look, if my son is stealing money or anything is going wrong, I have no idea.

00:43:07.540 He handles everything.

00:43:09.220 You know, I'm on parole.

00:43:10.400 I don't get involved in anything.

00:43:11.540 He threw me under the bus.

00:43:12.960 And I found out later on, that's exactly what happened.

00:43:15.180 And so it made a real impression upon me.

00:43:18.680 I said, man, if this life can separate father and son, you know, after the bond that we had, you know, both the blood oath that we took and father and son, I said, what do we really have here?

00:43:29.260 And it was two years later that I met my current wife, which was really my motivation for walking away.

00:43:37.100 But I still say to myself, I wonder, and I'm not sure.

00:43:40.560 I'm saying if that incident never happened, would I ever have walked away?

00:43:45.800 Because my dad had a very strong hold on me, as did the life.

00:43:50.300 So I don't know.

00:43:52.360 I mean, I don't know if I would have ever walked away.

00:43:54.400 Well, it sounds to me, given everything you've told me so far, is that the people who were involved in that life set up a morality of, it's something like a morality of patriarchal loyalty that goes above all else.

00:44:12.560 Is that there are military, that military style obedience is required and that all morality is therefore now a consequence of abiding by the rules of the game.

00:44:25.860 And that would mean you sacrifice your personal happiness, you sacrifice the stability of your family.

00:44:31.840 You might even sacrifice the relationship you have with your son.

00:44:34.700 But the manner in which your moral is to abide by the code of the family.

00:44:39.880 And that sounds like what's inculcated.

00:44:42.200 Does that seem accurate?

00:44:43.760 Absolutely.

00:44:44.660 Absolutely.

00:44:45.700 Okay.

00:44:46.040 So that would also mean that when you were viewing yourself doing things that you didn't think were, say, integrally part of the real you,

00:44:55.680 one of the other justifications for that is, well, that's the code that I'm bound to abide by because I've decided to enter this life and I've put my word on doing so.

00:45:06.340 And so at the moment, in order to continue that and to abide by my word, I don't really have any choice.

00:45:12.600 That's accurate.

00:45:14.080 Yeah.

00:45:14.320 One of the things that really disturbed me about my dad is that he wouldn't take any responsibility for it.

00:45:21.820 You know, none at all.

00:45:22.820 And what I had said to him on a few of his violations, I said, Dad, the family is falling apart.

00:45:28.900 You need to leave New York because you can't make it in New York.

00:45:32.100 You need to get away from everybody and preserve the family.

00:45:35.020 And he wouldn't do it because his legacy in that life meant more to him than anything else.

00:45:41.500 He wanted to be known as the guy that would die with his boots on.

00:45:44.980 He would never be an informant no matter what.

00:45:47.920 He stood up, you know, with a 50-year prison sentence.

00:45:50.560 That's what he wanted to take to his grave.

00:45:52.420 And that's what he did.

00:45:53.700 But in the meantime, the whole family was destroyed.

00:45:56.960 Yeah, well, I think that part of the reason that the mafia life has such a grip on the popular imagination

00:46:06.440 is because of that weird paradoxical relationship between the strict moral code, which is admirable, like being able to abide by a moral code is disciplined and admirable.

00:46:19.940 And then that juxtaposed with the criminality and the chaos that goes along with that and the family price. 1.00

00:46:27.280 I mean, if you're just a run-of-the-mill idiot, street shoplifting thug and, you know, spinning off your idiot criminal enterprises, 1.00

00:46:37.620 which are likely to end in catastrophe in a chaotic manner, there's nothing that interesting about your life. 1.00

00:46:43.200 It's just kind of pathetic. 0.97

00:46:44.240 But the thing that, and it usually has a pretty pathetic outcome and generally isn't very productive, 0.96

00:46:50.380 but the thing about the organization that you're describing is that there really is an iron-shod ethos that goes along with it.

00:46:58.900 Now, but what's interesting about it, you know, so imagine that we look at your situation, we think you had decided to abide by an ethical order,

00:47:08.180 and that was the order of the Cosa Nostra families, and you're bound by that.

00:47:13.000 And then you might say, well, that defines you.

00:47:16.160 But it doesn't exactly, because you said by your own testimony that despite the fact that you had identified with that ethic,

00:47:23.660 when you saw yourself doing certain things, you didn't feel that was the real you.

00:47:30.580 And so then the question would be, well, who is the real you that that mafia ethic is transgressing against?

00:47:40.000 You know, if it's something you did by choice, which was the case, and it was something that you were disciplined to do,

00:47:47.620 you might think, well, that's you.

00:47:49.480 But that isn't the case.

00:47:51.160 What you felt, from what you've told me, is that you felt you were violating the real you

00:47:55.880 when you were doing terrible things to abide by this ethos.

00:47:59.280 And so what do you think now, you're much older and you've gone through many transformations,

00:48:04.420 what do you think the real you that was being violated was?

00:48:08.460 And why wasn't that the Cosa Nostra you?

00:48:10.680 Well, you know, the fact that I was so uncomfortable at times doing the things that I was told to do.

00:48:20.560 I don't want to not accept responsibility for what I did, because I think that's wrong, especially at this stage of my life.

00:48:28.040 But I can't say that that's something.

00:48:31.100 Let's put it this way.

00:48:32.240 Had my father never introduced me to that life, I would have never gone down a criminal path.

00:48:37.160 That's not who I was.

00:48:39.920 You know, I wanted to be a doctor or go on with my life in that way.

00:48:44.220 But on the other hand, I had it in me to do what I had to do.

00:48:47.540 So I wonder myself sometimes, you know, what is the real you?

00:48:51.880 In other words, if you were presented with a situation when you had to do something, you did it.

00:48:56.480 Is that the real you?

00:48:57.720 Even though you were uncomfortable?

00:48:59.220 I've asked myself this question quite a bit.

00:49:02.840 And I don't know.

00:49:03.820 You know, like now, I wouldn't think of it.

00:49:05.880 I don't want to, you know, hurt my family in any way.

00:49:08.200 I don't want to do the wrong thing.

00:49:10.180 But being I was capable of doing it back then, was it the real me?

00:49:14.920 Is it the real me?

00:49:16.040 Well, that is the question in some sense.

00:49:20.680 And I suppose that's also the question that is relevant with regards to a conversion, is what is the real you?

00:49:27.640 And I don't mean just you specifically.

00:49:29.640 I mean the real human being, you might think that because you, as I said, because you had decided to abide by this moral code and that it was a moral code, that you wouldn't be conscience ridden for doing some of the things you had to do to stay part of the family.

00:49:47.740 Because you'd already defined yourself in that way and also defined that as ethical, but it was still grating against something in you.

00:49:55.500 And I would say, hopefully, that whatever was calling you to conscience was more the real you than the you that was stepping outside of your conscience to do the terrible things that you did.

00:50:09.800 You know, I do believe that people have an intrinsic sense of, well, I think it's an intrinsic religious sense in some sense.

00:50:18.440 And that's why they're called upon by their conscience, period.

00:50:22.120 Now, exactly what that means in the final analysis, I don't know.

00:50:25.780 But it's very interesting to me that despite your oath and your discipline following of the appropriate practices, that you were still guilty.

00:50:34.300 And it's also interesting to me that your father had to insist on his innocence and that that was what he used to escape responsibility.

00:50:43.820 Because you wouldn't necessarily think that that would be vital under those circumstances.

00:50:49.360 But it was how he, apparently, it was how he lived with himself.

00:50:53.880 And you said there was a kind of, I hesitate to use this word, but there was also a kind of narcissism of legacy associated with that that's prideful, I suppose.

00:51:04.700 You said that he wanted to be viewed, and you can understand this, and it is tough in some sense, that he wanted to be viewed as the guy who was so loyal that he wouldn't crack no matter what.

00:51:14.720 And even though that's misguided, it's not nothing, right?

00:51:17.900 It's not just complete, chaotic rule by whim.

00:51:23.120 There is an ethos there.

00:51:25.280 But, you know, you said your birth family was completely destroyed by that ethos.

00:51:29.680 It turned out that that doesn't work very well in the medium to long run.

00:51:34.600 And that would be despite the money and the respect and the power and all of that that went along with it.

00:51:39.600 Why do you think it was so destructive for your family?

00:51:42.640 I mean, it was partly because your father was jailed, but that wouldn't be all of it.

00:51:45.840 Well, a lot because my mother, you know, was a very difficult woman.

00:51:53.780 She didn't, how could I put it?

00:51:57.880 She was difficult with all the kids in the family.

00:52:00.560 She couldn't handle motherhood alone.

00:52:03.180 We needed a balance in the household.

00:52:05.160 And he wasn't there to do that.

00:52:07.980 When he was there, there was a balance.

00:52:10.040 Even, you know, my brothers and sisters were younger than me.

00:52:12.620 I kind of became the father figure in the house when he went away.

00:52:16.820 But my mother was such a strong personality and there was nothing to balance her out.

00:52:22.100 And then I think all the kids had that same resentment for law enforcement, all of them.

00:52:26.900 And so it just worked against them.

00:52:29.660 And then dealing with my mother, it was so difficult.

00:52:32.180 Like my brother, you know, I'll tell you what happened to another dynamic.

00:52:37.280 My brother got himself in trouble because he was constantly in and out of trouble with drugs, low-level stuff.

00:52:44.760 I mean, he was a drug addict and he would do what drug addicts do.

00:52:48.140 And he got himself in trouble and he wore a wire against my dad and other people for over a year.

00:52:54.960 The last violation that my dad got and the last case that he got,

00:52:58.920 my brother brought it and actually testified against him in court.

00:53:02.720 He went into the witness protection program.

00:53:04.820 We didn't see him.

00:53:05.660 I didn't see my brother for 10 years.

00:53:07.540 When my dad was on trial and I went to see the trial, I was shocked seeing my brother on the witness stand.

00:53:14.040 But since then, my brother's cleaned up his act in that he's no longer a drug addict.

00:53:19.320 He's been clean for a while.

00:53:20.360 And I sat down with him and I, some of the things that he was telling me about his feelings inside,

00:53:27.940 and I believe he's being honest with me, I guess I never realized how tortured my brothers and sisters were

00:53:33.860 over my dad being away, my mother being the way she was, me, you know, being not out of their life,

00:53:40.480 but, you know, I got married and went to do my own thing.

00:53:44.440 He just couldn't handle it.

00:53:46.520 He couldn't handle it.

00:53:47.320 And he had a big resentment to my father, big resentment.

00:53:50.560 And that's what, he didn't think he did anything wrong.

00:53:53.160 I said, you know, John, his name was John.

00:53:56.400 I said, you know, dad almost died in prison as a result of your actions, still your father.

00:54:00.440 He didn't view it as anything wrong.

00:54:01.940 He said, I had to do this.

00:54:03.520 Well, you guys were, you guys were definitely in a bind with respect to your father.

00:54:08.280 I mean, so one of the questions that popped up for me is you, you, you still speak of your father,

00:54:14.020 as far as I can tell, with both love and respect.

00:54:17.660 And so one of the, one of the things I'm curious about is, you know, you, you told me that his actions

00:54:23.500 destroyed your family.

00:54:25.000 You told me that he was involved in high level criminal activity, that there's no doubt about

00:54:29.360 that.

00:54:29.660 And although he was framed on the charges that he went to prison with and that he bears a

00:54:33.640 tremendous amount of moral responsibility for the havoc that was wreaked in his wake.

00:54:38.580 But it's clear to me that you still love him and you respect him.

00:54:44.120 And so I'm curious about why you loved him and respected him first.

00:54:49.320 And then, well, let's, let's proceed from there.

00:54:52.400 So what was it about the way that your father interacted with you when you were a kid and

00:54:57.560 a teenager, let's say, and maybe even later that produced this love and respect despite

00:55:02.320 the other elements of his character?

00:55:04.820 Well, he was always very supportive of me when I was younger.

00:55:07.800 He really did want me to be a doctor.

00:55:11.120 I think I was the only one in the family that ever paid attention to him in a way that he

00:55:15.660 wanted me to, wanted all of his kids to, because he was married once before.

00:55:19.720 He had three children from another marriage.

00:55:21.900 So there was seven of us all together, kind of a blended family.

00:55:25.320 And I was really the only one that paid attention to him.

00:55:29.080 And so, and I did everything to try to please him when I was younger, for some reason.

00:55:33.160 I just, I wanted to please him.

00:55:34.680 And I tell you this, Jordan, maybe this had a lot to, well, obviously it did.

00:55:40.260 I got to go back.

00:55:41.680 My dad met my mom when she was 15 years old.

00:55:46.520 And he was married at the time.

00:55:49.120 And the way the story goes, and this is probably going to blow your mind a little bit.

00:55:55.740 My mother got pregnant at 15.

00:55:59.780 And I was born when she was 16.

00:56:01.940 And my father at that time, being that he was married, in that life, you weren't allowed

00:56:08.100 to get a divorce.

00:56:09.400 You weren't allowed.

00:56:10.160 It was against the Cosa Nostra rules.

00:56:13.100 So my grandparents, my mother's parents were so upset because back then you didn't have

00:56:18.800 a child out of wedlock.

00:56:20.380 They forced my mother to marry someone else to say that that was her, I was her, his child.

00:56:25.100 And so I grew up for a short time believing that my father, Sonny, was my stepfather.

00:56:32.580 I believed that.

00:56:33.580 He adopted me at an early age because then he left his wife and then my mother and him

00:56:38.700 got married.

00:56:39.260 I think I was, I don't know, four or five years old.

00:56:41.620 But his first wife left, ran away on his kids.

00:56:46.600 And so we had a blended family.

00:56:49.180 My mother was like 20 years old when his kids came into the house.

00:56:52.740 And she didn't react well to that.

00:56:54.960 And there was a lot of dissension in the household.

00:56:58.120 And I grew up believing that my mother was kind of mean to his kids and that my father would

00:57:03.480 turn on me because I wasn't his real son.

00:57:06.120 But he never did.

00:57:07.500 Never did.

00:57:08.180 He always treated me as well or better than anybody else.

00:57:11.980 And I used to get mad at my mother.

00:57:13.940 I used to say, Mom, why are you doing this?

00:57:15.280 He's going to turn on me one day.

00:57:16.580 And she would always say, no, he won't.

00:57:18.020 He won't.

00:57:18.520 Don't worry about it.

00:57:19.300 But I didn't understand why.

00:57:20.440 It wasn't until years later, years later, when I found out that he was my real father.

00:57:26.660 And, you know, so maybe it was me always trying to please him and him always treating me right

00:57:33.860 that I had this real love and respect for him that never went away.

00:57:37.460 Yeah, yeah.

00:57:38.640 Yeah, well, that's very complicated.

00:57:40.380 You know, I read this book by Frank McCourt called Angela's Ashes.

00:57:44.760 And Angela's Ashes is a tremendous book.

00:57:47.740 And Frank McCourt is a brilliant writer.

00:57:49.820 And his father was an absolutely destructive alcoholic.

00:57:55.900 They grew up in Ireland.

00:57:57.440 Many, many kids.

00:57:58.360 They grew up in poverty that was unbelievably extreme.

00:58:01.260 They lived in a tenement house at one point that had three inches of water in it in the spring.

00:58:08.640 And he had siblings who died of, I think it was tuberculosis.

00:58:14.480 Doesn't matter.

00:58:15.540 It was an illness induced by poverty and privation.

00:58:18.800 They often didn't have enough food.

00:58:20.540 His father was always off drinking up every cent the family had on these alcoholic benders that went on forever.

00:58:28.280 And that was their life.

00:58:30.020 And, you know, Frank was a very wise child.

00:58:35.500 And he, in some ways, compartmentalized his father into two different persons.

00:58:42.600 There was sober, mourning father who was a pretty decent guy and who actually loved him and who spoke words of encouragement. 0.62

00:58:52.420 And then there was drunk and useless nighttime father. 0.72

00:58:56.340 And he more or less ignored him. 0.65

00:58:57.860 And what Frank did was concentrate on the positive aspect of the relationship with his father.

00:59:04.460 And it's an amazing book because it's written almost entirely without resentment, as far as I could tell.

00:59:09.560 And you could also tell by reading the book that Frank benefited from the positive attention of his father to the degree that he was able to garner that.

00:59:19.000 Even though, overall, what his father did was murderously destructive in the most irresponsible possible manner.

00:59:26.680 But, you know, you said that your father, so you could imagine that the best of your father came out around you and the best of your father was serving the best in you.

00:59:38.280 He said he really did encourage you.

00:59:40.080 And that does produce an intense bond, you know, because I don't think that there is anything more important that a father can do for a child, particularly a son, although not uniquely a son, than to encourage the best in them.

00:59:54.600 That's, in some sense, that's almost the definition of paternal love.

00:59:58.240 So then that would put you in a terrible bind because you have the father whose benevolent aspect is actually genuine and genuinely focused on you and you have a real relationship.

01:00:10.360 And then you have outside of that father, the criminal father, who's doing all these other things that are, in some ways, completely contradictory to that.

01:00:19.160 And, you know, and your response was intense loyalty to your father.

01:00:25.360 Yes.

01:00:26.280 Yeah, and I guess because he never turned on me in any way, I just always appreciated that.

01:00:33.440 So no matter what he did later on, it never interfered with my love for him.

01:00:37.900 I might have gotten upset with him, but I couldn't not love him in any way.

01:00:42.480 So, you know, the other thing, too, Joy, when I left that life, it was extremely difficult because I felt that I was betraying my oath.

01:00:52.620 So I would go to bed at night, leaving the life, wake up, staying back in.

01:00:56.360 I mean, it took me years before I finally got over it.

01:01:01.620 And I'm over it now, obviously.

01:01:03.200 But it took me a long time.

01:01:04.900 It was a real struggle and challenge.

01:01:06.840 That's how much of a hold that life had on me.

01:01:09.620 And I think not only because of the oath that I took, but really because of my father.

01:01:14.180 I didn't want to let him down in any way.

01:01:16.380 It was really a struggle.

01:01:18.480 So let's turn to that.

01:01:19.960 You said that one of the turning points was that evening that you described earlier where you weren't sure if you were going to walk out alive.

01:01:27.040 And the fact that your father, in some sense, threw you under the bus before that meeting.

01:01:32.400 And then also your realization that had you been in the same position as perhaps your father and certainly your friend Jimmy, that you might have done the same thing.

01:01:41.180 That obviously perturbed you to a great degree.

01:01:43.920 But then you also said that you met the woman that you are now married to not long after that and that that was also a turning point.

01:01:51.840 And so how did you meet her and what were you engaged in at that time and how and why did meeting her change you?

01:02:02.560 Well, I met her on a movie set.

01:02:04.440 I was producing a movie.

01:02:05.580 I had a film distribution company, production company at the time that I was involved in, independent.

01:02:12.080 And we were filming a movie in South Florida and she was one of the dancers.

01:02:17.020 It was a dance movie.

01:02:18.500 I met her on the set.

01:02:19.680 She was 20 years old.

01:02:21.920 And again, very long story short, I fell in love with her, really fell in love with her, obviously, 37 years later.

01:02:28.640 And I just said, you know, she was a Christian and her mom was a very devout Christian.

01:02:34.620 And I said at the time, you know, when I was falling in love with her, I said, my life is a direct contradiction to what these women believe.

01:02:40.880 And they didn't really know anything about me.

01:02:42.360 They were from Anaheim, California, and I'm from New York, so they didn't really know anything about me.

01:02:47.100 But when I fell in love with her and I knew there was something happening there, I said, am I going to marry this girl and then put her through the same thing my family went through?

01:02:56.960 Because, Jordan, I became such a target.

01:02:59.780 They were going to take me down at some point in time.

01:03:02.700 You only have a winning streak for so long.

01:03:04.500 And I said, I've got to make a choice.

01:03:07.840 It's either her or that life.

01:03:09.960 And I chose her.

01:03:11.220 And that's when I started to try to engineer this way for me getting out of the life.

01:03:15.820 And part of that was pleading to a racketeering case.

01:03:20.200 The underlying act was tax fraud.

01:03:22.140 And accepting a 10-year prison term and a $15 million restitution with forfeitures and all of that, marrying her, moving out to California, and trying to preserve my life.

01:03:34.480 And again, with the 10-year sentence, I was under the old law at that time, so I knew I could make parole at some point, which I did after five years.

01:03:43.300 But that was the whole plan.

01:03:44.700 She kind of became more important to me.

01:03:46.540 She overtook even the love I had for my dad.

01:03:48.900 Did you get married before you went to prison?

01:03:51.420 Yeah, we got married in July of 85, and I went to prison in December of 85.

01:03:56.520 Okay, so what was it about, let's talk about love for a minute there, because you also said that your love for her transcended your love both for the life that you had embarked on and also transcended the love that you had for your father in some real sense.

01:04:12.340 And so what do you make of that love?

01:04:15.120 I mean, how old were you when you fell in love with her?

01:04:17.120 I was just about 32 years old.

01:04:21.420 Okay, okay.

01:04:22.480 And so what was it about the relationship you had with her and about her that had that transforming?

01:04:28.880 How do you account for that transforming experience?

01:04:32.240 Well, step back a little bit.

01:04:33.940 I had been married once before.

01:04:35.420 I married young.

01:04:37.560 I married at 24.

01:04:39.560 And the girl I married, who I cared for, but I don't believe I was ever in love with her.

01:04:45.260 I loved her.

01:04:45.940 She was a good person.

01:04:47.640 She stood by my side when we were going through all these troubles.

01:04:50.940 She was very close with my mother.

01:04:53.120 And that kind of, you know, almost I had to get married in a way.

01:04:56.400 And, but I wasn't in love with her.

01:05:00.460 And so that marriage was kind of falling apart mutually.

01:05:05.780 And then I meet her.

01:05:07.280 We had been separated, my first wife.

01:05:09.620 And then I meet her.

01:05:11.140 And I just knew that she was it.

01:05:13.440 That was it.

01:05:13.960 It was the love of my life for some reason.

01:05:15.660 It hit me in that way.

01:05:17.740 And I don't know.

01:05:20.500 I just said, you know, I want to be with this woman.

01:05:22.860 And, you know, let me, let me also be fair in saying this.

01:05:27.140 I had become such a target.

01:05:28.860 I had just was acquitted in a huge case.

01:05:31.980 Rudy Giuliani indicted me on a big racketeering case.

01:05:35.360 I was a lead defendant.

01:05:36.500 I had 15 co-defendants and at the day of my arraignment, I was, he gave me a million dollar

01:05:42.600 bail at the time.

01:05:43.980 He told me in the courtroom, he said, if I convict you on this case, you're going to

01:05:47.320 get double what your father got.

01:05:48.560 I'm going to give you a hundred years, Michael.

01:05:50.480 Because again, I had a 14 agency task force that was assigned to bring me down because

01:05:57.440 I had beat them so many times.

01:05:59.980 And after a several month trial, I was acquitted in that case.

01:06:04.740 Some of my co-defendants were convicted.

01:06:06.260 They got 30 years.

01:06:07.860 So I said, he would have given me at least 50.

01:06:10.300 I said, there's no way that I'm going to, you know, beat this forever.

01:06:15.380 So I started seeing a lot of things going wrong with the life.

01:06:18.920 The racketeering laws were becoming very successful.

01:06:21.760 A lot, a lot of guys were becoming informants.

01:06:24.200 And I think there was two parts to it.

01:06:26.640 I fell in love with her and she was the catalyst that said, okay, now's the time to make a move.

01:06:31.720 I don't know if I would have made it if I wasn't with her.

01:06:34.500 She was definitely the motivation.

01:06:36.920 But so it was all these things kind of happening at one time in my head and bingo, I meet her

01:06:41.600 at that time.

01:06:43.140 And I said, this has got to be my exit strategy.

01:06:47.300 I got to get out of the life.

01:06:48.300 I want to be with this woman.

01:06:50.020 I don't want to go into the witness protection program.

01:06:52.560 I don't want to cooperate.

01:06:53.800 I don't want to hurt anybody.

01:06:55.340 And that was a real dance.

01:06:57.040 That was very, very difficult.

01:06:58.960 Okay.

01:06:59.320 So let me ask you for your thoughts on this.

01:07:01.580 So you talked about the two different elements of you emerging when you were called upon to do things that you didn't think were central to your nature, let's say.

01:07:13.320 And so, and then there's the part of you that did do those things.

01:07:16.740 Which of those two parts fell in love with her?

01:07:21.440 Hopefully the better part.

01:07:22.920 Yeah, well, that's what, this is what I'm curious about, you know, because obviously she was attracted to you as well, which is a mystery in some sense, right?

01:07:33.780 Because you would think that given your description of her and her straight life and her Christian origins, that you would be a dicey bet to say the least. 0.96

01:07:43.400 And so what do you think she saw in you that made her fall in love with you?

01:07:50.700 Was she looking at the, was she looking accurately at the positive part of your character, do you think?

01:07:57.420 I do because I've been a good husband with her.

01:08:00.680 I mean, she's, you know, she's the most important person in my life.

01:08:05.620 I always put her on a pedestal in many ways and always treated her well.

01:08:10.820 Very appreciative.

01:08:11.820 She waited for me all that time because I ended up doing eight years in prison and she waited for me all that time.

01:08:17.800 You know, so I like to think that that's the real part of me that she fell in love with.

01:08:27.320 But, you know, the fact that, you know, you're capable of doing other things, I, you know, was conflicted with myself as well.

01:08:34.140 Who is the real you?

01:08:35.080 I mean, yeah, you were uncomfortable doing these things, but you did them anyway.

01:08:38.900 So, you know, that's still part of who you are anyway.

01:08:42.380 You know, so I don't know.

01:08:44.780 It's, it's, it's hard to say, but one thing that really motivated her too, her mother was a very, very devout Christian, wonderful woman.

01:08:54.040 She's passed on now, but she took a real liking to me and she prayed for me every day, every single day.

01:09:00.780 And she was very supportive of me.

01:09:02.080 When I went into prison, she held her daughter up.

01:09:05.440 She really did, as well as the church that we were involved in.

01:09:08.540 And she said, this is the choice that you made with this fellow.

01:09:12.640 You're going to wait for him because that's the right thing to do.

01:09:16.140 And so her family became very supportive of me also.

01:09:20.060 And all of those elements combined, I think, were very helpful in maintaining the marriage because very difficult.

01:09:27.020 I had a difficult prison time because the government was very upset with me.

01:09:30.400 They were trying to get me to cooperate.

01:09:32.260 They shipped me to different prisons around the country.

01:09:34.400 I actually spent 29 months and seven days in solitary.

01:09:39.200 It was a six by eight cell, 24 seven.

01:09:42.320 And that's very destructive, Jordan.

01:09:44.720 I don't agree with that, especially for young people.

01:09:48.260 It's very hard to get through that.

01:09:50.700 And I saw a lot of guys that it destroyed them, totally destroyed them.

01:09:55.500 But she waited on all of this.

01:09:57.000 How did you, how did you get, okay.

01:09:59.220 So, so we have two mysteries there now on the table.

01:10:02.020 One is why this family decided to support you.

01:10:06.020 Obviously, that did provide you with a bridge out of your previous life.

01:10:10.020 So that's one mystery.

01:10:11.300 What in the world did they see in you?

01:10:13.260 And why were they willing to stake their, like, eight years of their daughter's life on that?

01:10:18.840 And then the second mystery is how in the world did you survive with your sanity intact

01:10:24.080 through that period of solitary confinement?

01:10:28.080 So let's start with the first one.

01:10:29.600 Her mother really liked you.

01:10:30.900 Now, why in the world was that, do you suppose?

01:10:33.980 Because you'd think in some sense that her attitude would have been, oh my God, get my 0.93

01:10:38.820 daughter away from this guy as fast as possible, given, you know, our Christian background and

01:10:43.120 his, and his, his behavior.

01:10:45.480 So what in the world, what in the world went on there?

01:10:49.400 Well, I think it goes to the type of woman she was. 0.97

01:10:52.820 You know, I had a conversation with her one day and I told her, her name was Irma.

01:10:56.380 And I said, Irma, look, I'm bringing some baggage into this relationship because of who

01:11:02.460 I am and, and you know, what I've done in my life.

01:11:05.640 I said, but I love your daughter and I promise you I'll never hurt her.

01:11:10.020 And I said, I love her very much.

01:11:12.060 And I said, I'm going to do everything to help her.

01:11:13.840 I said, when I go to prison, I said, I'll make sure that she's comfortable. 0.96

01:11:17.640 Um, one of the reasons why I took a plea was so that I can maintain my wife's lifestyle. 1.00

01:11:24.800 When I say lifestyle, she wouldn't have to go to work. 0.99

01:11:26.820 She wouldn't have to do anything.

01:11:28.020 So it was part of the negotiation where I'd maintain the house and money and all of that,

01:11:32.660 uh, even though I paid a big fine and restitution.

01:11:35.380 Um, so I said, I'm going to, she's going to be comfortable while I'm away.

01:11:38.800 Uh, I says, and I'll, I'll never hurt her.

01:11:40.740 And from that moment on, she became my biggest supporter.

01:11:43.480 She believed in me and because of her Christian faith, um, you know, she was very prayerful

01:11:49.780 in that.

01:11:50.180 And she said, you know, to her, told her daughter, this man loves you.

01:11:54.500 And if this is the choice you're making, then you have to stick with it.

01:11:57.500 And her grandmother was the same way.

01:11:59.640 And, uh, I think that was, cause Cammy was 21 years old when I married her. 0.67

01:12:04.280 She was a good girl.

01:12:05.420 She was a Christian, but she was still a young girl.

01:12:07.740 She was, she was a dancer at the time.

01:12:09.620 You know, she, uh, um, so I think that.

01:12:13.480 Had a lot to do with it.

01:12:14.680 And even when I was in prison, I tried to maintain one of the things that really, really

01:12:20.300 scared me in prison.

01:12:22.000 It wasn't the prison experience, but when my dad went to prison back in his day, he was

01:12:27.920 allowed one visit a month and one three minute phone call.

01:12:31.700 As a result of that, he wasn't, you know, he just became so separated from the family.

01:12:37.520 You know, my brother had cancer in his leg.

01:12:39.760 We never turned to my father.

01:12:41.040 Everything that went wrong in the house, we didn't turn to my dad because he wasn't

01:12:44.320 there.

01:12:44.520 We couldn't even discuss it with him.

01:12:46.060 So he had no input and him and my mother grew apart.

01:12:50.080 That's when the kids started to grow apart from him.

01:12:52.460 I maintained a relationship because I'd go and visit him every month.

01:12:56.140 Um, and so I was afraid of that.

01:12:58.400 I said, I don't want that to happen with me and my wife.

01:13:01.220 So fortunately the laws changed.

01:13:03.740 You were allowed to get on the phone.

01:13:05.420 When I made my deal, uh, you know, to take a plea, part of the, um, a negotiation was

01:13:11.660 they'd send me to prison out in California.

01:13:13.240 So I'd get visiting.

01:13:14.840 So I'd maintain that relationship with my family.

01:13:17.560 All I cared about in prison was maintaining a relationship with her.

01:13:21.000 I was able to do that.

01:13:22.840 So, um, you know, I took care of her in that regard.

01:13:26.280 Her mother just believed in me and her father, her father was kind of a, he had some, he

01:13:30.220 was an alcoholic.

01:13:30.940 He had some petty little stuff on the street.

01:13:34.820 So, um, he liked me a lot, you know, in that regard.

01:13:38.300 I think maybe he looked at me and wow, this is big time for him.

01:13:40.980 I don't know.

01:13:41.960 But, um, you know, that's what held it together.

01:13:45.660 And then, you know, she's a, she's a genuine person of faith.

01:13:48.760 She's very sincere in her faith as was her mother.

01:13:52.180 So, and then let's, let's, let's look at the experience in prison.

01:13:56.360 So you were in solitary, you said for 29 months.

01:13:59.200 Yes.

01:14:00.820 Okay.

01:14:01.300 So how in the world did you get through that?

01:14:03.700 And what did it do to you?

01:14:05.180 And was there any utility in it or was it just torture?

01:14:10.940 Well, emotionally and mentally, it's torturous.

01:14:13.080 You know, when you look back on being in solitary 29 days, I can't differentiate one

01:14:19.680 day from another.

01:14:20.340 I can't differentiate one hour from another.

01:14:22.880 If I think back and you, I don't know, it was one long day, one long day.

01:14:27.700 That was it.

01:14:28.960 And, um, for me at the time I dove into my Bible.

01:14:33.060 This is when my, my, uh, faith-based transformation took place in solitary, dove into my Bible.

01:14:40.900 Um, I had my wife send me in several books on all faiths and I started to study all different

01:14:48.620 faiths and, um, it sustained me.

01:14:51.880 Um, in a big way.

01:14:53.700 I had a Sony Walkman.

01:14:55.120 I was listening to a lot of the pastors that were interpreting scripture.

01:14:58.940 I was trying to make sense of it, Jordan, because, you know, evidence has always played a major

01:15:03.500 role in my life because I was either fighting my dad's case, my cases.

01:15:07.320 It was all about evidence for me.

01:15:08.580 So, um, I like to see proof when I'm buying into something.

01:15:13.960 And for me, uh, there was enough proof.

01:15:17.340 It was almost overwhelming to me that, uh, scripture was real.

01:15:21.120 The Bible was God's word and that Jesus was my savior.

01:15:24.460 And I came out of there with that concept, with that belief.

01:15:28.340 And that's where the transformation really started to take place.

01:15:31.740 Cause I said, you can't have one foot in one foot out.

01:15:34.580 If you're going to be a different person, you got to be the right person and you got to

01:15:37.640 maintain that.

01:15:39.220 And even though, you know, I say this, you could take the boy out of Brooklyn.

01:15:42.800 You can't always take Brooklyn out of boy.

01:15:44.360 I still have things that I think about in my head and sometimes reactions that I hold

01:15:50.760 back from, thank God.

01:15:52.940 Um, but overwhelmingly, my faith has won out and kind of keeps me on track that and family,

01:16:00.420 obviously.

01:16:01.640 So, okay.

01:16:02.500 So you had, you had three things going for you.

01:16:04.880 Then when you made your transition to your new life, you had the love of your wife and

01:16:09.180 her family.

01:16:09.840 You had faith and you had your, your proclivity for loyalty.

01:16:15.900 You said, well, when you went into your new life, you went all in.

01:16:20.600 And so, and then you also talked about the experience you had in solitary and the evidence

01:16:28.200 that you gathered, you were reading about different faiths.

01:16:30.780 What was it about?

01:16:32.500 Why did you decide at that point to start studying faith traditions and more particularly the Bible?

01:16:38.940 How, was that a consequence of the influence of your wife or what do you think was happening

01:16:43.320 there?

01:16:44.560 Well, it was, uh, to me, it was divine intervention because the first night I was in the hole,

01:16:48.900 uh, when they violated my parole, uh, a couple of things happened.

01:16:53.600 I was walking out of a bank in Brentwood, California and 15 agents captured me, threw me in the

01:16:59.280 paddy wagon and just took everything I had at that point.

01:17:03.120 And they were upset with me because I wouldn't cooperate.

01:17:05.280 Basically, I was playing a game with them, making them think I was because I was trying

01:17:09.320 to just, you know, get on the right side of the government, but not really giving them

01:17:13.660 anything that they can work with.

01:17:15.160 And finally, they knew that I was playing a game with them.

01:17:17.780 They violated my parole and said they were going to indict me on another case.

01:17:20.720 And I had to spend the rest of my life in prison and they drove me to the lockup in LA at that

01:17:27.580 time.

01:17:27.940 They were going to transport me back to Brooklyn in the morning where the case was.

01:17:31.680 And that first night in the hole.

01:17:32.940 So let me get, sorry, I'm confused here.

01:17:35.280 So tell me when that was happening.

01:17:37.640 This was, this was before you struck the plea bargain with the government.

01:17:41.380 This was after I had done five years.

01:17:43.900 I was out on parole for 13 months, a very difficult 13 months.

01:17:48.040 Okay.

01:17:48.520 And then the violation.

01:17:50.700 And, um, okay.

01:17:51.940 Okay.

01:17:52.580 Yeah.

01:17:52.780 That first night in the hole was honestly, I was a guy that was pretty much, I can accomplish

01:17:58.940 anything that I want to accomplish.

01:18:00.280 I was very determined.

01:18:01.820 I had, I had confidence, not arrogance, but confidence in myself.

01:18:06.520 And, um, this was the first night when I said, I think it's over for me.

01:18:13.060 I'm done.

01:18:14.340 I said, they took all my money because they leaned all my bank accounts.

01:18:17.900 They said they were indicting me on another racketeering case.

01:18:20.780 And I know by past experience, you don't beat a case with a public defender.

01:18:25.120 It costs me millions to defend myself and, and become victorious at these trials.

01:18:30.960 I said, my wife, she waited for me five years, uh, 13, very bad months on.

01:18:36.520 Parole.

01:18:37.000 I had a rough time.

01:18:37.980 You know, people were after me.

01:18:39.140 It was a very difficult, uh, game that I was playing with them.

01:18:43.300 And, um, I said, how's she going to wait for me now?

01:18:46.120 You know, I'm going to lose the girl I did all of this for.

01:18:48.140 We had two little babies.

01:18:49.920 I said, um, and they're not going to put me out on the yard.

01:18:53.520 I said, I got people looking to hurt me still because I walked away.

01:18:56.300 I'm going to spend the rest of my life in this hole.

01:18:58.640 And I really felt for the first time in my life, hopelessness.

01:19:02.440 It's the strongest emotion that I ever experienced that up to that point.

01:19:07.660 And, um, quite honestly, Jordan, if I could have closed my eyes and not wake up, that's

01:19:13.040 what I wanted.

01:19:13.800 It was too painful to think about my future.

01:19:16.180 So I was only 40 years old or something.

01:19:18.080 And I said, this is it.

01:19:19.740 I'm done.

01:19:21.260 And a prison guard walked by my cell and he looked in and he said, you know, you don't

01:19:25.320 look good tonight.

01:19:26.080 Are you okay?

01:19:26.740 And I chased him away.

01:19:27.980 I said, get away from me. 0.96

01:19:28.860 Leave me alone.

01:19:29.460 I don't want to see you guys.

01:19:30.860 And he came back about a minute later and he pushed the Bible through the slot in the

01:19:34.720 door.

01:19:36.060 And, you know, it was after a little bit of time that I picked up the Bible and that's

01:19:40.840 when I started my journey.

01:19:42.840 Um, and it really started with the book of Proverbs.

01:19:45.520 The book of Proverbs really got me because of the wisdom and the intelligence of, uh,

01:19:52.400 Solomon.

01:19:53.040 I was, wow.

01:19:54.600 You know, I'd never read the Bible.

01:19:56.440 You know, I grew up a Catholic, but in Catholic school, you don't read the Bible.

01:19:59.040 You read the catechism.

01:20:00.260 Priest reads the Bible from the pulpit on Sunday.

01:20:02.580 He reads the gospel.

01:20:03.720 So it was my first real experience reading the Bible.

01:20:08.200 And I just got hooked.

01:20:10.160 And that's when the journey started.

01:20:12.420 And I said, look, you know, the way I reasoned, I said, you know, I made two very bad decisions

01:20:17.080 in my life based upon loyalty.

01:20:20.040 I followed my father blindly into this life.

01:20:22.720 I took an oath and look where it got me.

01:20:25.640 I said, I can't do this a third time.

01:20:27.360 You know, if my, what my wife and my mother-in-law are telling me about eternity and Christ is

01:20:32.800 true, I want to see it.

01:20:34.440 I want to believe it.

01:20:35.340 I want to see the evidence.

01:20:36.440 And so my journey was really in a search for evidence that this was the truth, not

01:20:41.900 justifying it.

01:20:43.220 And that's why I asked her, I said, I want to read about Hinduism.

01:20:46.340 I want to read about Judaism.

01:20:47.740 I want to read about all religions.

01:20:49.220 Send me books.

01:20:50.000 And she did.

01:20:51.240 And I just came out of there believing.

01:20:52.900 That was a long time ago, obviously.

01:20:54.340 It was in 19, I violated the parole in 1991 and spent from 91 to 95 in there.

01:21:02.260 Um, but that's when my journey started.

01:21:05.360 And I just came out of there very positive that Christianity was the right way to go.

01:21:10.180 So in the first four or five years that you spent in prison, you were already, um, affected

01:21:18.060 in a positive manner by your wife's love and, and by your decision at that point already

01:21:23.400 to leave the life that you had led, but you got out on parole and, and things didn't work

01:21:29.620 out well.

01:21:30.180 And you said, you said that had you violated your parole when they picked you up?

01:21:35.060 Well, not really, you know, I don't want to say this, but not really because, uh, I had

01:21:42.300 failed to file my income tax and the reason I failed to file it because they claimed that

01:21:48.280 I had money buried in certain places.

01:21:50.620 And my lawyer advised me, he said, Mike, if you don't file, it's a misdemeanor.

01:21:54.900 If you file fraudulently and ever find money of yours anywhere, he said, that's a felony.

01:21:59.980 They'll, you know, indict you again.

01:22:01.540 You're going to spend another 10 years in prison.

01:22:03.300 So he said, just don't file.

01:22:06.000 So I didn't file when I was on parole.

01:22:08.260 However, I had to report my earnings to my parole officer every month.

01:22:12.300 So I wasn't not, you know, I was still letting the government know what I was earning, but

01:22:17.380 I didn't formally file my income tax.

01:22:20.040 And that was a violation. 0.69

01:22:22.020 And they tried to, I honestly, Jordan, I don't even remember some other silly little

01:22:26.560 things they put together, but, you know, when they want to violate your parole, they're

01:22:30.020 violating you.

01:22:30.820 You don't have, you know, they don't need much at all.

01:22:33.300 So, but that was the basis of it.

01:22:36.040 I see.

01:22:36.740 And so it was the second time that you were put in prison that really, that really did

01:22:40.540 you in the night that you were, that you were thrown in.

01:22:43.480 Yes.

01:22:43.960 That made you like rock bottom hopeless.

01:22:47.260 Yes. 0.76

01:22:47.560 You'd rather be dead than to continue the way that you were.

01:22:50.380 And that's also when this prison guard showed up with a Bible, despite the fact that you

01:22:54.240 chased him away.

01:22:55.340 Yes.

01:22:55.660 And so what do you think you found so compelling about it, especially when you were reading

01:23:00.300 about other faiths at the same time?

01:23:03.120 You know, the, I think there was two things.

01:23:05.280 I mean, obviously, you know, so many, so many, you know, stories in the Bible were compelling

01:23:11.240 to me.

01:23:11.720 But one of the things that got me, I became a New Testament guy because I really focused

01:23:16.160 on, you know, the, the manhood of Jesus.

01:23:19.880 Number one, I wanted to really look into Jesus character since he's the basis of our faith

01:23:24.440 and what kind of a guy he was, because remember this, George, my whole life, from the time

01:23:30.080 I was a kid, right through the time I was in that life, the standard we had to live up

01:23:34.240 to was to be a man's man.

01:23:36.040 That's it.

01:23:36.720 You had to have integrity.

01:23:37.660 You had to be strong.

01:23:38.420 You had to be courageous and tough and treat women the right way.

01:23:41.000 It was always that.

01:23:42.120 So I wanted to see, I wanted to study Jesus of Nazareth first to establish if he was the

01:23:48.020 kind of man that I would follow.

01:23:49.880 And he obviously came through with flying colors for me with that.

01:23:54.760 And then one of the things that really got me was that after the apostles, you know, again,

01:24:01.520 it's always this legalization that I put in my mind.

01:24:04.680 After the apostles, after Jesus' death, the way the apostles stood up and went to their death

01:24:12.020 for someone that had died, I really believed in the resurrection.

01:24:17.080 And if there's no resurrection, there's no really Christianity.

01:24:20.700 It's all about the resurrection.

01:24:22.920 And their testimony, their witness meant so much to me.

01:24:27.040 It was so powerful.

01:24:27.960 And I said, man, I know guys in the life that were turning informants left and right, and

01:24:34.020 we were a life supposedly built on loyalty.

01:24:36.840 And here's 12 men, or 11, whose leader was dead, and yet they were willing to go to their

01:24:43.640 death as a result.

01:24:45.020 That was very powerful evidence to me.

01:24:48.500 And then things just kind of stemmed from that, because you don't die for something you don't

01:24:52.320 believe in.

01:24:53.060 You don't die for something that is not real to you.

01:24:56.080 At least I can't see that.

01:24:59.340 You know, even if it's wrongly real, if it's real to you, you may sacrifice yourself for it.

01:25:04.280 But if it's not, you're not going to.

01:25:05.640 So that speaks to that loyalty, that speaks to that loyalty that we were talking about

01:25:10.640 earlier, that ethos of loyalty that you had.

01:25:14.000 And so, and then you also said that the rules that you had abided by were the rules that

01:25:23.020 you might say a man's man would abide by, but they were insufficient in many ways, given,

01:25:28.160 let's say, what happened to your family and also your own experiences.

01:25:31.060 Why did you find the example that you encountered in the Gospels more compelling than that?

01:25:37.400 You said because people were willing to die for their testimony, and that spoke to the

01:25:41.300 loyalty.

01:25:41.740 But what was it about the particulars of the life of Christ that also you found convincing,

01:25:48.280 and convincing in a manner that would change the way that you were interacting with the

01:25:51.720 world?

01:25:52.620 Well, you know, I started to think about where the loyalty really was in our life.

01:25:59.880 And I, you know, loyalty could be built on love, could be built on fear.

01:26:07.920 And I started to think about it, the loyalty in mafia and cause in Austria, to a great degree,

01:26:14.320 was built on fear, fearing of the consequences if you did something wrong.

01:26:19.700 So you were loyal.

01:26:20.380 And then I realized when all of these racketeering laws started to come into play, the fear of

01:26:29.060 the mafia was transferred to the fear of the government, because the government now would

01:26:34.880 tell somebody, listen, you're going to do 100 years if you don't cooperate with us.

01:26:39.160 And all of a sudden, you know, the fear was transmitted to that.

01:26:43.260 And so I said to myself, you know what, real loyalty is based upon love.

01:26:48.500 It's not fear.

01:26:50.100 And because if you love somebody, you'll go to your death for them.

01:26:53.460 I mean, I know I would for my kids, my wife.

01:26:56.520 Yeah, well, you also said that the loyalty that you had to your father was basically

01:27:00.820 based on love and not fear.

01:27:02.820 It was.

01:27:03.660 It was.

01:27:04.180 It was based upon love.

01:27:05.320 I didn't fear my dad in any way.

01:27:08.520 And like I said, I mean, I would have walked into a room with him even after they told

01:27:12.740 me, you know, he went along with the contract, because I don't believe he would have ever

01:27:16.420 done that.

01:27:16.860 And if he did, well, you know, that would have been my tough luck.

01:27:20.520 But it was always love with my dad.

01:27:23.720 And I just saw the way Jesus expressed himself to his followers.

01:27:30.140 And, you know, no greater love than for someone to give their life for the people that they

01:27:33.760 love.

01:27:34.200 And I just saw that as very powerful.

01:27:36.700 Now, before that, without getting into all the detail, I had to first establish that

01:27:41.900 scripture was real.

01:27:43.680 What I'm reading is real.

01:27:44.760 It's not a novel or a fairy tale or fake or any way.

01:27:48.120 And, you know, I put that together methodically in my head at that time that, no, this is

01:27:53.380 real.

01:27:53.600 This is trustworthy.

01:27:54.860 I can trust the Bible.

01:27:56.500 The evidence is pretty clear.

01:27:57.980 And so it's almost like I went to trial.

01:28:02.280 I took the Bible on trial during that time.

01:28:05.040 I had nothing but time on my hands, Jordan.

01:28:07.440 So, you know, I often wonder if I didn't get in the hole during that time, if I ever would

01:28:14.420 have strongly become a Christian.

01:28:16.120 Because I think I needed that time totally to myself with no distractions whatsoever other

01:28:23.020 than, you know, worrying about my family on the outside in order to really convince myself

01:28:28.980 through this search that it was real.

01:28:32.320 You know, in the past 25 years, it's only become more real to me.

01:28:37.200 You know, not only in my life, but in the life that I've seen, you know, in others that

01:28:42.220 God has done.

01:28:43.320 So, you know, I tell people, you know, this is not based upon some whim or some fairy tale

01:28:48.420 or, hey, it's, you know, it feels good to go to church and hear the message and see

01:28:52.720 the, you know, get involved in the worship music.

01:28:55.200 For me, it's pretty real.

01:28:56.420 I'm not saying that I'm perfect in any way, you know, because you still have sinful tendencies,

01:29:00.740 no doubt.

01:29:01.780 But you get better.

01:29:02.780 You have to be better.

01:29:03.780 If you're not better, then something's wrong.

01:29:05.280 Then it's not real.

01:29:06.700 So how did you start to change during the second prison term as a consequence of this unfolding

01:29:14.720 decision?

01:29:15.940 What did you stop doing and what did you start doing?

01:29:18.300 And how did that change life for you in prison?

01:29:21.260 Well, again, in the hole, there's not much you can do.

01:29:23.680 You're just there 24-7.

01:29:25.260 But, you know, something happened during that time, Jordan, this hatred that I had for law

01:29:31.280 enforcement.

01:29:32.520 There was a case going on in Chicago, and they wanted me to testify in that case.

01:29:39.940 As a matter of fact, they said they were going to indict me, probably something they couldn't

01:29:42.960 have indicted me.

01:29:43.580 It was somebody that I knew.

01:29:45.700 And I'll tell you what happened.

01:29:46.960 They came and picked me up in the middle of the night, and one FBI agent came and was

01:29:53.020 bringing me to Chicago to talk with the U.S. attorney.

01:29:58.640 And it was me and him.

01:30:01.000 I was handcuffed.

01:30:02.200 We were on a flight.

01:30:02.940 And we get to the airport in Chicago, and I hardly even spoke to this guy.

01:30:06.840 I didn't want to talk to him.

01:30:08.720 And we get to the airport, and he says to me, wait here.

01:30:14.160 He took the handcuffs off me.

01:30:15.540 He said, I'm going to get my car.

01:30:18.120 I said, what?

01:30:19.940 I said, I'm a federal inmate.

01:30:22.200 I said, he's leaving me in the airport all alone.

01:30:25.380 Now I'm wondering if this is a setup.

01:30:27.220 I'm saying, what's going on here?

01:30:29.020 I'm starting to get a little nervous, you know?

01:30:31.840 And he doesn't come back for about 20 minutes.

01:30:34.920 And I'm in the airport by myself.

01:30:36.980 I'm looking around.

01:30:37.940 I'm saying, something's going on here.

01:30:39.340 This guy, first of all, he'd lose his job if I ran away.

01:30:42.240 He'd be in a lot of trouble.

01:30:43.160 He just left me there.

01:30:44.940 And then he comes back, and I get in the car with him, and I'm driving with him.

01:30:49.760 And I told him, his name was George.

01:30:51.460 I said, pull over.

01:30:52.920 He says, what?

01:30:53.520 I said, pull over right now.

01:30:55.040 And he said, what's wrong?

01:30:58.560 I said, no, what's wrong with you?

01:31:00.660 What's going on here?

01:31:01.740 I said, you leave me in the airport?

01:31:03.520 You're a federal agent, 23 years on the job, I hear.

01:31:06.700 I said, you could have lost your job if I ran away.

01:31:09.300 He said, I'm trying to establish some trust with you.

01:31:12.300 He said, I just put myself on the line with you.

01:31:15.160 He says, and you've got to be able to trust me, and I've got to be able to trust you.

01:31:20.280 And that whatever I'm asking you, you're going to tell me the truth.

01:31:22.980 Something happened.

01:31:25.720 I had never witnessed anything like that from a federal agent or anybody in law enforcement.

01:31:30.680 Well, local cops, different.

01:31:32.900 But I established a friendship with this guy.

01:31:36.620 And I said, I'm going to tell you the truth.

01:31:38.220 It's not going to help your case, but I'm going to tell you the truth.

01:31:41.860 And he became a dear friend.

01:31:44.900 He turned my whole head around about law enforcement.

01:31:48.300 Because I used to look at them like they were some aliens.

01:31:50.960 Like they didn't know how to tell the truth. 0.99

01:31:52.220 They were corrupt. 0.99

01:31:53.040 They were just bad people. 0.57

01:31:55.200 And that put me on the road of changing my own attitude and accepting the fact that, no, we were the bad guys.

01:32:03.640 I mean, there's bad in everything.

01:32:05.520 But we were the bad guys.

01:32:06.800 These are decent people.

01:32:08.240 And since then, I've met so many.

01:32:09.580 I have so many friends in law enforcement now.

01:32:12.080 Yeah, well, it's a rough thing when you put the locale of evil somewhere that's convenient.

01:32:17.580 You know, it should be somewhere inconvenient, right?

01:32:21.100 It should be in the middle of your heart.

01:32:23.240 But if you see it in other people, then as soon as you see it as essentially in other people, then you're justified in taking whatever stance you want against those other people.

01:32:31.700 And then you have no responsibility except to take that stance.

01:32:35.220 And that's pretty convenient for you, right?

01:32:37.080 Because it's not your moral problem then.

01:32:38.820 It's them.

01:32:39.680 They're bad. 0.99

01:32:40.840 They're the ones who are bad.

01:32:42.500 Right.

01:32:43.620 You know, and now even on, you know, social media, I have a big platform also.

01:32:48.020 You know, people, if I'll say something about my dad, they'll come out and say, well, why do you defend your dad?

01:32:52.340 He was a murderer and he was this and that and that.

01:32:54.660 And I don't even get offended by that anymore because I understand that's the way people should normally think because that's the life that my dad was part of.

01:33:03.200 That's the life that I was part of.

01:33:04.380 At one time, it would have been terribly offensive to me.

01:33:06.740 But now I get it.

01:33:08.020 I understand.

01:33:08.620 That's the right way to think in many ways.

01:33:10.700 So, you know, I think it was a whole, this had to be a whole change of mindset that occurred in me over a period of time, just from meeting different people, studying my faith.

01:33:24.440 You know, I met so many genuine people.

01:33:26.980 One of the pastors of my church, the guy that married us, he was Dr. Myron Taylor.

01:33:31.900 He's passed on now.

01:33:33.640 But when I was in prison in the hole, he was sending me books and then he'd send me money for commissary.

01:33:40.700 And I told my wife one day, I said, why is he doing this?

01:33:43.700 I don't know him well.

01:33:44.780 He doesn't have to send me money.

01:33:46.040 I don't feel right.

01:33:47.280 And she told me, she said, listen, he loves the Lord and Tony loves you.

01:33:50.420 Just don't worry about it.

01:33:51.680 Buy some soup and commissary.

01:33:53.540 So, and he was such a genuine person, genuine.

01:33:58.460 He wasn't looking for anything, want anything.

01:34:00.000 He was just a real person.

01:34:01.780 And he was true about his faith.

01:34:03.980 He didn't hit me over the head with it or anything like that.

01:34:06.040 But I just started to meet people that started to turn my head around and break this other mentality that I had.

01:34:13.960 It took time.

01:34:15.480 Yeah, well, it's a 180 shift.

01:34:19.860 And with shifts like that, there's often plenty of backsliding.

01:34:23.780 I mean, you don't develop a whole new you overnight.

01:34:26.800 It takes a lot of discipline.

01:34:28.540 It takes as much discipline to become good as it took to become bad to begin with, I would think, or perhaps more.

01:34:33.760 So, what have you done since this transformation that you think has been good?

01:34:38.960 And do you think that, do you think, do you believe, do you feel that you have in some reasonable measure atoned for your past?

01:34:48.420 Well, you know, it's very interesting that you say that.

01:34:51.800 I don't believe that we can ever make up for our past.

01:34:56.820 What's done is done.

01:34:57.720 And that's one of the things that really attracted me to the Christian faith.

01:35:02.480 How do you make up for some things that you've done in your life?

01:35:05.980 They're already done.

01:35:06.940 They're done, you know, especially in that life.

01:35:11.860 But based upon Christianity, if you're sincerely sorry for your sins and accept Christ, well, then your sins are forgiven.

01:35:18.100 So, do I believe my sins are forgiven?

01:35:19.920 Absolutely.

01:35:20.680 I 100% believe that because that's the basis of our faith.

01:35:24.200 If I didn't believe that, there's nothing to believe in.

01:35:26.320 And what happened, Jordan, when I was coming out of prison that last time, they finally let me out of the hole for a few months that I had left for my time.

01:35:37.780 Well, the FBI came to me and they said, we need a favor from you.

01:35:42.760 We want you to participate in a video that all the pro leagues are getting involved in about the dangers of gambling to their athletes.

01:35:51.320 Very long story short, I participated in that video inside the prison and said, this is how we set up the athletes.

01:35:58.220 This is exactly how we did it.

01:35:59.560 And this is what they should watch and be careful of.

01:36:02.500 Well, when I got out, the leagues came to me directly.

01:36:05.880 And to make a very long story short, I started speaking to all the ballplayers back in 1996 when I got out of prison about the dangers of gambling, the relationships that they keep.

01:36:16.900 That led to me speaking in churches, giving my testimony.

01:36:20.780 And that's been going on since 1996.

01:36:23.140 I've been all over the world and all different forums.

01:36:26.260 I've spoken at over 1,600 churches and ministries throughout my time.

01:36:30.200 So I think that was God's plan and purpose for me.

01:36:34.720 And I totally believe, totally believe that, you know, what the enemy meant for bad, God will turn around and use for good in our life if we allow him to.

01:36:42.500 So I think the platform that I went into was used because people are so intrigued with the mob life everywhere you go.

01:36:54.100 I mean, I found out, you know, in China, the biggest movie ever in China was The Godfather.

01:36:58.260 I've experienced that in Singapore, Australia, you name it.

01:37:02.340 I just did a 16-city tour in the United Kingdom, and you would have thought I was a rock star.

01:37:07.240 I couldn't believe it.

01:37:08.020 Yeah, well, I think it does have something to do with that strict sort of hyper-masculine ethos that, you know, we live in pretty chaotic times morally.

01:37:18.820 And any example that constitutes abiding by a strict code is therefore extremely attractive at an unconscious level.

01:37:27.980 I think one of the things that's so interesting about your story is that you abided by that ethos.

01:37:34.600 You saw that despite the fact that it was strict and had a certain degree of admirable loyalty, let's say, associated with it,

01:37:42.020 and a willingness to make sacrifice, that all things considered, it was still extremely destructive and counterproductive,

01:37:48.940 especially at the familial level, but also socially more broadly.

01:37:53.160 And then you found a path that you regarded as equally admirable or with regard to loyalty and the willingness to make sacrifices,

01:38:03.500 but also had additional components that your previous lifestyle didn't have at all.

01:38:07.920 And so that's resulted in this transformation.

01:38:13.040 And so it's a story that's remarkable in two fronts.

01:38:17.800 One is, well, you were an exemplar of this first ethos that has this unconscious attractiveness associated with it.

01:38:24.700 And second, you found that that wasn't good enough, and you needed something and found something that served you and everyone else better.

01:38:32.420 And so it makes quite a compelling story, and it's a hard one to deny, especially when you'd be that far out on the criminal front and then flipped around 180 degrees,

01:38:43.640 and also how painful that was to actually manage.

01:38:47.160 So, yeah, let me ask you this.

01:38:50.340 I have said this many times.

01:38:52.020 I don't think that anything, everything that's illegal is not necessarily immoral.

01:38:58.080 And I've said this.

01:38:59.660 I've said it from, you know, the stage in church.

01:39:03.180 I said, I have no moral issue whatsoever with stealing tax money from the government.

01:39:09.800 I'm being honest.

01:39:10.680 I would not lose a night's sleep in doing it.

01:39:14.260 I won't do it because I'm accountable now to God and to my family.

01:39:20.000 I don't want to put them in trouble.

01:39:21.200 I don't want to make mistakes like that.

01:39:23.240 People rely on me for a lot of things.

01:39:25.340 But morally, I don't have a problem with it.

01:39:27.740 And I'm being honest.

01:39:29.400 And I often wonder myself, I say, well, why don't you have a problem with it?

01:39:33.340 It's illegal.

01:39:34.320 You're not supposed to be doing it.

01:39:35.540 You're supposed to abide by the law.

01:39:37.760 But, and like I said, I won't do it.

01:39:40.740 But I don't have a moral issue with it.

01:39:42.340 So I don't know where that puts me at times.

01:39:44.880 Is that still the old me?

01:39:46.480 Or is that justified?

01:39:47.800 Because I believe the government is corrupt.

01:39:50.360 I mean, I read about it every day.

01:39:51.960 I just wrote a book, Mafia Democracy, about the government.

01:39:55.080 Yeah, well, maybe you can't fight corruption with corruption, you know?

01:40:00.180 Maybe that just doesn't work.

01:40:02.320 Even if your fundamental point is accurate, you know?

01:40:05.560 And maybe that's part of the ethos of turning the other cheek, which is a very complicated

01:40:09.380 thing to think through, right?

01:40:10.680 Because it can look like weakness, that's for sure.

01:40:13.040 And I think often when people do it, it is weakness.

01:40:16.240 It's not out of moral virtue.

01:40:17.740 But it can be.

01:40:18.720 You know, I think if you turn the other cheek and you don't have to, well, then maybe that's

01:40:24.180 something that's ethical.

01:40:25.140 And I do think it's very, it's a dicey thing to fight corruption with corruption.

01:40:29.380 And maybe that was part of the problem with you regarding the police as enemies, you know?

01:40:34.360 And then being willing to engage in criminal enterprise in some sense for revenge.

01:40:40.460 Is that even though, to whatever degree your supposition was correct, the manner in which

01:40:46.700 you chose to fight wasn't productive.

01:40:49.600 It was just going to make the problem worse.

01:40:52.100 Yeah, that makes a lot of sense.

01:40:54.220 You know, another thing, I have this issue with my wife. 0.99

01:40:56.840 Maybe you can help me there too.

01:40:58.820 My father always taught me, he said, Michael, don't ever lie to hurt somebody.

01:41:02.500 But if you have to lie to help somebody, that's okay.

01:41:05.540 And I've lived by that code throughout my life.

01:41:07.940 I'm not going to lie to hurt somebody, but I'll definitely lie to defend somebody and

01:41:12.040 help somebody.

01:41:13.100 And my wife said, a lie is a lie. 0.81

01:41:15.480 It's wrong.

01:41:16.300 I said, and I try to explain it.

01:41:17.900 I said, well, wait a second.

01:41:19.100 If I had to protect our son from something that he did, would you want me to just give

01:41:23.340 him up if he was wrong?

01:41:24.660 Or should I protect him?

01:41:26.480 I said, my instinct is to protect him.

01:41:28.900 I don't know how to do it any other way.

01:41:30.620 I said, I couldn't do it.

01:41:31.600 And she, you know, she has a problem with that. 0.99

01:41:37.100 I think you can find yourself in situations where the best alternative that confronts

01:41:44.440 you is to lie about something.

01:41:45.980 But then I would say, in all likelihood, there was a whole series of micro lies that put you

01:41:52.380 in that circumstance.

01:41:53.300 And so you have to be hyper awake to make truth always work for the good.

01:42:01.620 You know, there's a poet in Canada, Leonard Cohen, and he said, there's no decent place

01:42:06.500 to stand in a massacre.

01:42:08.820 And the idea would be, well, by the time you're in the massacre, you've made so many moral

01:42:12.800 errors that all you have are variant forms of hell around you.

01:42:17.100 There's no, there's lesser, there's lesser hells and greater hells, but that's it.

01:42:21.800 And I think very often when people are called upon to lie in the service of something positive,

01:42:27.480 they've already compromised themselves so badly in 50 ways that that's the best alternative

01:42:31.980 that lays open to them.

01:42:35.040 You know, I think your wife is fundamentally right.

01:42:39.180 I also think, though, that sometimes it's your best bet.

01:42:45.240 You know, there's a classic example.

01:42:47.260 Let's say if you were in Nazi Germany and you had Jews hiding up in your attic and the 1.00

01:42:52.340 Nazis came to the door and they said, do you have any unwarranted people living in your

01:42:59.260 household, unauthorized people?

01:43:01.140 Well, if you weren't going to lie, you'd say yes. 0.87

01:43:02.960 And then those people would die.

01:43:05.360 But then I would say, well, you know, 10 years ago, you should have said something about

01:43:10.020 the Nazis when they were first starting to gain power.

01:43:12.440 And now you're in this hellish situation where you have to lie for the good.

01:43:18.160 And that means that you have already put yourself in a place that's not tenable.

01:43:23.460 And so that's how it looks to me.

01:43:25.720 Interesting.

01:43:26.700 That makes sense.

01:43:28.760 Yeah.

01:43:29.040 Well, it's a hard thing to make sure that you're stepping on firm ground with every word

01:43:35.080 all the time.

01:43:37.600 That's a very rough challenge.

01:43:40.840 But I do think that's what living in truth fundamentally means.

01:43:44.700 It's a call to being awake nonstop.

01:43:48.380 And that may mean if you're not awake enough, you may find yourself in a position where the

01:43:54.060 best you have is a white lie.

01:43:56.180 You know, people have asked me these sorts of things trivially.

01:43:58.780 Like, if your wife comes to you and she's bought a new outfit and she says, well, how 0.74

01:44:03.600 does this look?

01:44:05.700 Your best bet is to say, well, it looks great, dear.

01:44:08.940 And I would say that's not really your best bet because it's better if she can rely on

01:44:14.720 your word.

01:44:15.300 And maybe the right answer in that situation is, don't ask me questions that you don't

01:44:21.760 want an answer to.

01:44:22.700 Mm-hmm.

01:44:24.400 Right?

01:44:24.940 It's, you know what I mean, is that if you step carefully enough, sometimes even in awkward

01:44:31.160 situations, and I know that's a relatively trivial example, you can find a way of telling

01:44:36.340 the truth that serves the good and doesn't betray someone that's still true.

01:44:42.840 You know, you have to wrestle with yourself to make that happen, but you can make it happen

01:44:47.940 almost always.

01:44:50.240 Understood.

01:44:51.640 So, yeah.

01:44:52.940 Well, look, it was, we're running out of time on this front.

01:44:55.900 I want to talk to you for another half an hour behind the Daily Wire Plus platform, as

01:44:59.540 most of you who are watching and listening now know, I do an extra half an hour interview

01:45:03.760 with all my guests to walk through some of the more details, some more of the details

01:45:08.960 of their life, and to find out, I suppose, what success looks like.

01:45:14.080 And so that's what we'll be delving into.

01:45:16.660 Hello, everyone.

01:45:17.300 I would encourage you to continue listening to my conversation with my guest on dailywireplus.com.

01:45:24.240 Thank you.

01:45:25.080 Thank you.

01:45:25.380 Thank you.

The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast - November 03, 2022

302. Breaking Good ｜ Michael Franzese

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