The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast

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00:00:57.420 Hello everyone watching and listening on YouTube and associated platforms.

00:01:14.140 I'm here today in person, so that's nice, with Dr. John Verveke.

00:01:20.340 He's a professor at the University of Toronto, like I am or was, depending on how you look at it.

00:01:25.880 But our work has run in parallel for a long time, probably 20 years, maybe longer than that.

00:01:31.720 And we had a lot of students at the University of Toronto in common.

00:01:36.040 And we've had a lot of discussions on YouTube.

00:01:38.680 John and I are both interested in this issue of the issue of relevance realization,

00:01:44.040 which is a very abstract way of pointing to something extremely fundamental,

00:01:48.740 which is the fact that certain things announce themselves to your perception as primary.

00:01:54.980 Things attract your attention and attract your focus.

00:01:57.400 And that's a great mystery. It's an immense mystery.

00:02:00.000 It might be the immense mystery in some real sense.

00:02:03.520 And so John has made a tremendous amount of progress on that front,

00:02:07.580 using sources different than the ones that I've relied on.

00:02:10.600 And so that's made our conversations, for me, extremely interesting,

00:02:13.440 because we're trying to address the same problem,

00:02:17.460 which is really the problem of meaning, whatever meaning is.

00:02:20.820 But he draws on literatures that are distinct from those that I've drawn on.

00:02:26.020 And so our conversations are reproductive because of that.

00:02:28.940 I'm going to provide a brief bio of John and his work,

00:02:33.800 and then we're going to jump right into the topics at hand,

00:02:36.640 because there's lots to talk about on this front.

00:02:38.600 So John Vervecki is an associate professor in cognitive psychology and cognitive science

00:02:43.240 at the University of Toronto.

00:02:45.380 His work, as I alluded to,

00:02:47.980 constructs a bridge between science and spirituality,

00:02:51.840 which we'll talk about,

00:02:52.900 in order to understand the experience of meaningfulness

00:02:55.420 and the cultivation of wisdom,

00:02:58.200 so as to afford awakening from the meaning crisis.

00:03:01.900 And the meaning crisis is a phrase that John's popularized

00:03:04.380 and that many of you may be familiar with.

00:03:06.020 So, welcome.

00:03:07.900 Good to see you.

00:03:08.620 It's good to see you, too, again.

00:03:09.640 It's nice to be here in person with you.

00:03:10.120 You're looking great.

00:03:11.060 Well, thank you, sir.

00:03:12.020 It's my Twitter suit.

00:03:13.080 Let's do it.

00:03:13.880 So, I wanted to start...

00:03:16.260 I'm going to jump right into this.

00:03:17.280 Please, please.

00:03:17.580 Because there's some very complicated and essential issues

00:03:21.980 that I want to talk to you about.

00:03:23.100 I talked with Carl Friston a while back,

00:03:25.520 and for those of you watching,

00:03:26.920 Friston is one of the world's premier neuroscientists,

00:03:29.200 and he's very interested in categorization and AI.

00:03:32.120 And he said something to me that was extremely illuminating,

00:03:35.840 and I think it's related to your notion of through-line

00:03:38.500 and also oneness.

00:03:40.560 Because one of the questions John's interested in, by the way,

00:03:43.180 is what is it that allows us to presume

00:03:45.960 that any given thing is one thing,

00:03:48.540 especially when it's made out of parts,

00:03:50.300 and what does it mean for two things

00:03:52.740 to be similar or identical,

00:03:55.440 given that they're separate?

00:03:56.700 And so, all of this is lurking in the background

00:03:59.700 as problems that need to be solved.

00:04:01.260 So, Friston is very interested in the use of cognitive categories

00:04:06.520 to constrain entropy.

00:04:07.960 And so, entropy is the proclivity of things

00:04:10.820 to move in multiple directions, I would say.

00:04:12.900 And I've always construed entropy, regulation, and constraint

00:04:22.700 as constraint of negative emotion.

00:04:25.460 But he pointed out to me

00:04:26.720 that it's importantly associated with positive emotion.

00:04:30.180 So, there's a huge neuropsychological literature

00:04:33.480 that indicates that you experience positive emotion

00:04:36.100 when you see yourself moving towards a valued goal.

00:04:39.440 That's what the dopaminergic tract responds to.

00:04:42.160 And he pointed out that that's also entropy reduction.

00:04:46.080 Because entropy, which is disorder,

00:04:49.960 in some sense,

00:04:50.940 and this is something I'd figured out a while ago,

00:04:52.460 but hadn't associated it with positive emotion,

00:04:54.700 entropy is something like path length to a destination.

00:04:58.960 And so, if you see the path length shrink,

00:05:03.800 which means you're getting closer to your destination,

00:05:06.040 you're reducing entropy.

00:05:07.560 But that reduction, which is an advance,

00:05:10.440 a pragmatic advance,

00:05:12.220 is actually signaled by the positive emotion system.

00:05:14.820 So, the negative emotion system

00:05:16.620 signals an explosion of entropy,

00:05:19.360 which might be part of combinatorial explosion,

00:05:22.740 and part of, what's the,

00:05:25.920 well, the mere fact that things can be perceived

00:05:27.760 in a multi-frame problem,

00:05:29.040 and it can be perceived in a multitude of ways.

00:05:31.020 So, that accounts for negative emotion.

00:05:33.000 But to construe positive emotion

00:05:35.400 as a response to a decrease in entropy

00:05:38.680 that's associated with voluntary action

00:05:41.060 struck me as, well, it's another form of unification, right?

00:05:43.840 Because it brings both emotional channels

00:05:45.780 under the rubric of entropy reduction.

00:05:49.080 And so, that relates them as well

00:05:50.380 to a very fundamental physical reality,

00:05:53.240 insofar as entropy is a physical reality.

00:05:56.000 Yeah, I mean, that's, I mean,

00:05:58.240 first of all, I haven't met Carl Fursten.

00:06:00.780 I've worked with a lot of his students,

00:06:02.960 and I have met and talked with Andy Clark.

00:06:07.060 But for me, just before we get into the content,

00:06:11.140 what Carl Fursten is doing

00:06:12.720 represents the big picture cognitive science

00:06:15.600 that I think we need, right?

00:06:17.440 The attempt to give, get a synoptic integration,

00:06:20.980 like, he thinks of it as a unifying framework

00:06:24.120 across many different sub-disciplines.

00:06:27.520 And so, I see one of the jobs of cognitive science

00:06:29.960 is overcoming the fragmentation within psychology

00:06:32.620 and then overcoming the fragmentation

00:06:34.360 between the various minded disciplines

00:06:36.580 like psychology, AI, neuroscience.

00:06:40.040 And his work is doing that.

00:06:41.540 And that is the kind of work I aspire to doing as well.

00:06:45.400 So, first of all, I think that's really important.

00:06:48.100 I would argue, it's not the sole cause,

00:06:50.020 but I would think, I would argue,

00:06:52.060 a contributing factor to the replication crisis

00:06:54.160 is the fact that we're overprivileging innovation

00:06:58.660 as opposed to integration in psychology.

00:07:02.800 So, what we're getting is we're getting

00:07:04.280 these very narrow, very almost effect-specialized,

00:07:09.000 I have a theory about this effect.

00:07:10.620 I have a theory about this effect.

00:07:11.920 And so, the controlled theoretical framework you need

00:07:19.440 in order to make sure that these,

00:07:21.760 the constructs are plausible,

00:07:23.780 they're clear, that you...

00:07:25.800 They're intelligible.

00:07:26.640 They're intelligible.

00:07:27.520 You don't have, you know,

00:07:28.160 the jingle-jangle problem in psychology,

00:07:30.260 get rid of all of that kind of thing.

00:07:32.420 And so, I think that that kind of work is exemplary.

00:07:35.500 And I think he's also,

00:07:37.280 I think it's also really good work.

00:07:38.580 I think it's careful.

00:07:39.300 It's mathematically rigorous.

00:07:40.300 You know, I work...

00:07:43.300 He has a student, Mark Miller,

00:07:47.260 who's also one of my former students,

00:07:48.860 and I work a lot with Mark.

00:07:51.460 He actually got a huge CERT grant to come to Toronto,

00:07:53.740 and we're going to work together on a lot of this stuff.

00:07:56.280 And Mark has been one of the people, in fact,

00:07:58.260 just to bring it back around,

00:07:59.840 who has been really trying to integrate

00:08:01.660 the predictive processing framework with affect.

00:08:04.120 Right.

00:08:04.560 Right, right.

00:08:05.360 Well, there's...

00:08:06.260 Yeah, well, it's very...

00:08:07.240 So that...

00:08:08.040 Because it isn't obvious that the AI models,

00:08:11.420 for example,

00:08:12.060 experience anything that you might consider akin to emotion.

00:08:15.160 But if you can relate negative emotion

00:08:17.160 to an explosion of potential pathways...

00:08:19.400 I think...

00:08:20.080 ...and relate positive emotion to a reduction,

00:08:22.280 then you're starting to make a very tight connection

00:08:25.180 between information processing and emotional experience,

00:08:28.460 let's say,

00:08:28.860 or at least the meaning of emotional experience.

00:08:31.640 Right, but that's where his work

00:08:33.060 and my work starts to integrate.

00:08:35.360 Because a way of translating that reduction of entropy...

00:08:39.220 I do want to get back to the theme of, you know,

00:08:41.940 a shared grammar between cognition and reality.

00:08:44.220 Yeah, yeah.

00:08:44.740 But first, you know,

00:08:46.660 a psychological way of understanding that the affect

00:08:52.080 is around the notion of basically surprise reduction.

00:08:56.140 So the idea...

00:08:56.480 Right, right.

00:08:57.000 Right.

00:08:57.220 The idea is the brain is trying to predict...

00:09:01.020 I would argue a better term is anticipation,

00:09:02.860 but we can come back to that.

00:09:04.000 The brain is trying to predict the world

00:09:06.320 because the more it can predict the world,

00:09:08.600 the more adaptive capacity it has to be proactive.

00:09:11.500 It's very easy.

00:09:12.280 It's much better to avoid the tiger than to confront the tiger.

00:09:15.600 Right?

00:09:16.580 And then the thing about that is, you note...

00:09:19.980 When I first say this to my students,

00:09:22.100 I say, oh, so the brain is this massively recursive system

00:09:25.300 for reducing surprise.

00:09:26.680 A lot of them will say, but I like surprises.

00:09:28.520 Mm-hmm.

00:09:28.740 And you go, yeah, that's right.

00:09:31.520 And so then you start to get this question about,

00:09:33.820 well, you want to reduce surprise, right?

00:09:37.620 But it's not sort of absolute reduction.

00:09:39.920 It's more like the rate.

00:09:41.900 And then you're playing the rates

00:09:43.740 at different longitudinal scales.

00:09:46.260 Yeah.

00:09:46.460 So I might like the short-term surprise for my birthday party

00:09:51.300 because it's a long-term predictor of stable relationships.

00:09:56.020 So my long-term ability to predict the environment goes up

00:10:02.140 because all of these people have done all of this intricate work

00:10:04.840 to surprise me at the party.

00:10:06.640 So I just want to make it clear

00:10:08.960 because people easily get this confused with,

00:10:11.200 he's just proposing some simplistic,

00:10:13.320 just, you know, just make, just reduce surprise

00:10:16.660 across the board.

00:10:19.140 So then you get this very...

00:10:20.020 It's accidental surprise in some sense.

00:10:22.500 And I know that's not a complete solution to the problem either

00:10:26.560 because some accidental surprises are positive.

00:10:29.160 But we're much happier about surprise

00:10:31.420 if we encounter it voluntarily.

00:10:33.280 And then there's a rate problem there

00:10:35.700 that's proportionate to something like depth.

00:10:38.020 And that's associated with the phenomenon of meaning as well.

00:10:41.960 Yes.

00:10:42.240 So let me take Frith's argument apart a little bit more

00:10:50.300 because I asked him a very specific question.

00:10:53.060 So I asked him if he thought that basic perceptual categories

00:10:56.400 were micro-narratives.

00:10:59.440 Right?

00:10:59.920 So because one of the places that your work and I and mine dovetail

00:11:04.480 is in our observation

00:11:07.760 that the very categories of perception

00:11:11.540 that make themselves manifest to us

00:11:13.980 aren't simple objects.

00:11:16.560 No.

00:11:16.880 Right?

00:11:17.060 That's where you bring in the neoplatonic teleology.

00:11:20.040 Agent arena relationship.

00:11:21.120 Right, right.

00:11:21.800 And so what we seem to see in the world

00:11:24.640 are patterns that have functional utility.

00:11:28.380 And the functional utility is construed in relationship to a goal.

00:11:32.600 And of course then that brings up the question

00:11:34.460 of what should the goal be

00:11:35.620 and is there such a thing as an integrated goal?

00:11:38.700 Yeah.

00:11:38.880 And so there's a pragmatism

00:11:41.280 like the empiricists and the rationalists

00:11:44.280 but let's say the empiricists to begin with

00:11:45.960 seem to presume that what we see in the world are objects

00:11:48.740 and then we derive meaning

00:11:50.260 we impose a meaning on top of that

00:11:52.360 and that isn't how it works

00:11:53.600 is that the very things we see as objects

00:11:56.960 are tools that we use in relationship to goals.

00:12:02.160 And some of those can be described objectively

00:12:04.260 but that isn't the essence of perception itself.

00:12:07.560 No, I agree.

00:12:08.840 And if you get...

00:12:10.100 So if you look at even the history of the psychology

00:12:12.220 of categorization

00:12:14.980 there are sort of two fundamental presuppositions

00:12:20.100 that have been, were running through it

00:12:22.020 that point to exactly what you're talking about

00:12:24.060 that really sort of started to come into question

00:12:27.360 in the mid-80s, early 80s

00:12:30.700 and then gathered STEAM

00:12:31.640 while neural networks came

00:12:32.820 and now they're to the fore.

00:12:34.380 But there was the idea that

00:12:36.800 concepts are just lists of features.

00:12:40.180 Yeah, right.

00:12:40.920 Lists of features.

00:12:42.020 Yeah.

00:12:42.320 And that the primary function of a concept

00:12:44.060 is to label the world and describe it.

00:12:45.980 And that's turned both of those

00:12:48.520 which are sort of often...

00:12:51.960 It's interesting

00:12:52.980 because when you ask people

00:12:53.960 what they think concepts are

00:12:54.920 that's what they tell you.

00:12:55.680 You bet, you bet.

00:12:56.500 There's features, there's a list.

00:12:58.040 Two things are identical

00:12:58.980 if they share the same list of features.

00:13:01.040 Yeah, yeah.

00:13:01.240 Yeah, it's axiomatic.

00:13:02.440 Yeah, and that's what they think.

00:13:03.660 Yeah.

00:13:04.200 But that's not how they actually do the categorization

00:13:06.740 because that won't give you categorization.

00:13:08.220 Yeah.

00:13:08.900 Right?

00:13:09.320 And so the...

00:13:10.900 And Friston's work points to a fundamental

00:13:12.960 and it belongs to a much broader framework

00:13:16.360 about, no, no, what concepts are

00:13:19.800 is they're generative models.

00:13:22.580 They are a structural, functional organization

00:13:24.600 of features that allow us to predict

00:13:28.320 and explain how things are going to behave,

00:13:31.580 especially with relationship to us.

00:13:34.940 Right.

00:13:35.140 So, and then what you...

00:13:35.800 And that's the pragmatism element.

00:13:38.160 Right.

00:13:38.380 And the functional element.

00:13:39.500 Exactly.

00:13:40.020 And so you get a much different notion of similarity.

00:13:43.000 So instead of thinking of here's these two feature lists

00:13:46.520 and then you get Goodman's problem

00:13:47.960 of what goes on the features

00:13:49.120 and how do you...

00:13:49.720 Right, right.

00:13:50.180 Right, right.

00:13:50.620 And all that stuff we've talked about.

00:13:52.380 Here's another idea.

00:13:54.080 Let's say I have these two generative models

00:13:56.340 and could I...

00:13:57.560 How many steps can I go back

00:13:59.260 where I can trace them back

00:14:01.060 to a common shared generative model?

00:14:03.420 It's like an evolutionary.

00:14:04.240 So if two things are similar

00:14:07.300 if they have an ancestor generative model

00:14:10.160 that is close to them

00:14:11.500 and they're dissimilar

00:14:12.680 if you have to go through a lot of transformations

00:14:14.840 to get them back to a shared generative model.

00:14:18.340 So we're judging...

00:14:19.840 I thought of that actually,

00:14:21.560 a variant of that,

00:14:22.620 as a way of determining whether something was real.

00:14:26.520 You know, well, can you imagine two measurement methods

00:14:29.900 that are similar or different?

00:14:31.380 You might say, well, what makes them...

00:14:32.880 You want to measure the same thing

00:14:35.160 in as many different ways as you can

00:14:37.680 to calibrate its reality.

00:14:39.560 Yes.

00:14:39.780 But then you run into the thorny problem

00:14:41.380 of what makes two measurement systems different.

00:14:44.560 And one of the answers to that,

00:14:46.660 on the conceptual level at least,

00:14:49.120 is distance evolutionarily.

00:14:51.380 Yes.

00:14:51.540 Like there might be a domain of measurement

00:14:53.620 that emerged in physics

00:14:55.320 and a domain of measurement

00:14:56.440 that emerged in psychology.

00:14:58.380 And so they don't share

00:14:59.500 a lot of underlying axiomatic presuppositions.

00:15:02.540 Exactly.

00:15:02.900 And if you bring both of them

00:15:04.040 to bear on the problem

00:15:05.180 and they report the same pattern,

00:15:07.040 then you can be reasonably sure

00:15:09.000 that that pattern exists

00:15:11.000 independent of your projection.

00:15:12.760 Of course.

00:15:13.060 And it's kind of what your senses do too, right?

00:15:15.160 Because you have five senses

00:15:16.880 and they're really qualitatively different.

00:15:20.260 Vision and audition are extremely different.

00:15:22.640 And audition and vision and touch

00:15:23.960 are extremely different.

00:15:25.000 And we use,

00:15:26.780 it's not triangulation,

00:15:28.180 I guess it's quintangulation,

00:15:29.300 Yeah, yeah.

00:15:29.980 to zero in on patterns

00:15:31.780 to see if they're replicable

00:15:33.860 across all the sensory domains.

00:15:35.920 And that's also a form

00:15:37.680 of what would you call analysis

00:15:39.760 by optimally different measurement systems.

00:15:44.060 Okay.

00:15:44.520 And then that is a way,

00:15:47.300 and that connects to research

00:15:48.560 and work I do

00:15:49.420 that can help to supply

00:15:51.020 the missing normativity for pragmatism.

00:15:52.840 The problem with pragmatism

00:15:54.080 is they had this very nebulous concept

00:15:55.700 of utility,

00:15:56.760 which was very hard

00:15:57.940 to get any sort of,

00:16:00.620 you know,

00:16:01.560 normative guidance.

00:16:03.180 But what you just described,

00:16:04.940 this goes towards

00:16:05.880 a lot of the literature,

00:16:07.640 I'm sort of punting here,

00:16:08.940 that's converging

00:16:09.600 on the notion of plausibility.

00:16:11.940 Now, there's two senses of plausibility.

00:16:13.660 One is just a synonym

00:16:14.980 for highly probable.

00:16:16.280 But another is

00:16:17.060 when we invoke things like,

00:16:18.260 say, that makes good sense,

00:16:19.540 or that stands to reason,

00:16:21.120 right?

00:16:21.420 Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah,

00:16:22.380 I get that.

00:16:23.100 Yeah.

00:16:23.420 Those kinds of judgments.

00:16:24.740 And what it's turning out is,

00:16:26.900 what you're getting in plausibility

00:16:28.080 is half of plausibility is that.

00:16:31.800 Like you said,

00:16:32.520 when you have convergence

00:16:33.480 from many difference,

00:16:35.140 and they converge

00:16:35.800 to the same source.

00:16:37.320 And the reason,

00:16:38.280 that gives you what

00:16:39.140 Resher calls

00:16:41.140 trustworthiness.

00:16:44.060 Yeah.

00:16:44.320 Because the chance,

00:16:45.420 so if I have just

00:16:46.000 one information channel,

00:16:48.160 the chance that my conclusion

00:16:49.560 is being affected by bias

00:16:51.100 in the system

00:16:51.620 is significant.

00:16:52.300 Right.

00:16:52.660 But if I have

00:16:53.160 multiple converging ones,

00:16:54.920 the chance of them

00:16:56.340 sharing all of those biases

00:16:57.800 is very low.

00:16:58.760 Very low.

00:16:59.180 Yeah, and it probably

00:16:59.780 decreases exponentially

00:17:01.040 as the number of measurements

00:17:02.280 that you use

00:17:03.020 to assess the reality

00:17:06.000 of a given phenomenon

00:17:06.960 increases.

00:17:08.260 Right, but you hit

00:17:08.880 a lot of diminishing returns

00:17:10.000 at some point.

00:17:10.600 Right, right, right.

00:17:11.360 At some point,

00:17:12.560 you know,

00:17:12.940 a friend of mine says,

00:17:14.240 you know,

00:17:14.360 for human beings,

00:17:15.040 one is,

00:17:15.440 I'll think about it,

00:17:16.060 two is,

00:17:16.400 maybe three.

00:17:17.240 Three.

00:17:17.920 Well, three or four.

00:17:19.160 It's like,

00:17:19.440 yeah, yeah.

00:17:19.960 Yeah, yeah.

00:17:20.600 Sort of the working

00:17:21.320 memory capacity

00:17:22.180 kind of thing.

00:17:23.080 Right.

00:17:23.580 But that's not all

00:17:24.580 you want for plausibility.

00:17:25.560 You also want

00:17:26.300 the thing here

00:17:27.300 to have that

00:17:28.260 structural functional

00:17:29.100 organization.

00:17:29.940 You want it to

00:17:30.560 not just be a feature list.

00:17:32.400 You want it to be

00:17:33.140 a generative model,

00:17:34.400 things that can predict

00:17:35.240 counterfactuals,

00:17:36.700 because what you want

00:17:37.720 that construct also to do

00:17:39.140 is you want it to be able

00:17:40.060 to go in

00:17:41.660 to many different domains

00:17:43.160 and find

00:17:44.420 and formulate problems well.

00:17:45.720 So it has to have

00:17:46.280 this elegance.

00:17:47.440 So it has convergence.

00:17:49.140 So that would be

00:17:49.720 multi, multi...

00:17:51.020 Aptness, yeah.

00:17:52.040 Right, right.

00:17:52.680 So, yeah,

00:17:53.220 so that would be utility

00:17:54.260 across a broad range

00:17:55.380 of potential applications.

00:17:56.860 That's right.

00:17:57.120 That makes a nice tool,

00:17:58.400 right,

00:17:58.640 is that you can use it

00:17:59.500 for more than one thing.

00:18:00.620 So, you know,

00:18:01.500 force equals

00:18:03.220 mass times acceleration.

00:18:03.980 You can use it

00:18:04.740 for talking about

00:18:05.360 whales floating in the water.

00:18:06.840 You can use it

00:18:07.480 for talking about,

00:18:08.220 you know,

00:18:08.820 planets circling a sun.

00:18:10.400 You can use it

00:18:10.860 to talk about bullets.

00:18:12.200 Right.

00:18:12.220 So cross situational

00:18:13.520 generality.

00:18:14.900 Right.

00:18:15.300 So, and so,

00:18:16.300 and then the third thing

00:18:17.600 you want is

00:18:17.980 you want balance.

00:18:19.840 Right?

00:18:20.860 And so,

00:18:22.040 if I give you

00:18:23.200 a tremendous amount

00:18:24.840 of convergence

00:18:25.480 to something that

00:18:26.500 has very little elegance,

00:18:28.620 well, that's trivial.

00:18:29.540 Right, right.

00:18:29.840 You don't say it's false,

00:18:30.760 you say it's...

00:18:31.540 Right, right.

00:18:32.320 Well, and that's actually

00:18:33.700 the fate of most facts,

00:18:35.160 and this is related

00:18:36.180 to this problem

00:18:36.860 in psychology.

00:18:37.840 It's always struck me

00:18:38.720 in relationship

00:18:40.180 to the social sciences

00:18:41.780 is that

00:18:42.300 our method

00:18:43.680 of movement forward

00:18:44.840 is incremental

00:18:46.140 fact gathering.

00:18:47.400 But the problem

00:18:48.100 with that is

00:18:48.700 that there's an infinite

00:18:49.460 number of facts.

00:18:50.480 Yes.

00:18:50.840 And most of them

00:18:51.440 are irrelevant.

00:18:52.380 And so without

00:18:52.840 these unifying theories,

00:18:54.400 Exactly.

00:18:54.820 then you can't

00:18:56.180 integrate across

00:18:57.360 the facts

00:18:58.120 in any coherent manner.

00:18:59.480 And you just get

00:19:00.080 the endless generation

00:19:02.100 of, well,

00:19:03.360 valid in some sense,

00:19:04.640 but pointless facts.

00:19:05.720 Right, and that goes

00:19:07.140 to the point

00:19:07.620 we were talking about

00:19:08.380 with Tristan's work,

00:19:09.680 about generating

00:19:10.880 those frameworks

00:19:11.540 that bring all

00:19:12.800 the things together,

00:19:13.660 and you're getting

00:19:14.040 a generative model

00:19:14.980 rather than just

00:19:15.720 a feature list of facts.

00:19:16.760 Right, right.

00:19:17.580 But you also,

00:19:18.820 like I said,

00:19:19.320 you get triviality.

00:19:20.580 You also get the reverse.

00:19:22.100 If I have very little

00:19:22.880 trustworthiness,

00:19:23.840 but the promise

00:19:24.520 of a lot of elegance,

00:19:25.860 that's when we think

00:19:26.500 of something as far-fetched.

00:19:28.060 Like, if you just believe

00:19:29.140 that the British monarchy

00:19:31.300 are lizard peoples

00:19:32.220 from space,

00:19:33.200 look at all the things

00:19:33.960 I can explain.

00:19:34.740 And so you get that,

00:19:36.200 you can get far-fetchedness.

00:19:37.640 Right.

00:19:37.960 And if you actually

00:19:38.940 pay attention,

00:19:39.940 and this is some...

00:19:40.380 That's where the conspiracy theories

00:19:41.500 in some sense

00:19:42.160 make themselves manifest.

00:19:43.480 That's exactly right.

00:19:44.100 Except when they're true.

00:19:45.180 Right.

00:19:45.720 And then you can also

00:19:46.780 equivocate.

00:19:47.480 You can do Mott and Bailey

00:19:48.560 and a lot of things

00:19:51.500 where you,

00:19:52.240 like you seem to be doing this,

00:19:54.820 but you're actually

00:19:55.320 equivocating.

00:19:56.200 Like a deepity.

00:19:57.660 So then,

00:19:58.260 you know,

00:19:58.860 love is a four-letter word.

00:20:00.360 Okay,

00:20:00.680 on the graphic side,

00:20:01.860 that is highly convergent,

00:20:03.340 but it's absolutely trivial.

00:20:04.420 Who cares?

00:20:05.500 But then you think

00:20:07.020 that they're not talking

00:20:09.000 about the grapheme,

00:20:10.400 right?

00:20:10.980 You think they're talking

00:20:12.020 about the concept of love,

00:20:13.660 so you equivocate,

00:20:14.780 and then you think

00:20:15.640 something important

00:20:16.480 is being said

00:20:17.240 about this phenomena

00:20:18.040 that ramifies

00:20:19.180 for your whole life.

00:20:20.220 So you've got

00:20:20.840 convergence to triviality

00:20:22.620 that then equivocates

00:20:24.100 to something

00:20:24.860 that's profound,

00:20:26.860 that would promise,

00:20:28.120 but there's nothing

00:20:29.320 being said

00:20:29.980 when you say

00:20:30.460 love is a four-letter word.

00:20:31.660 Like,

00:20:32.160 how could,

00:20:32.740 how,

00:20:33.340 is that sort of proving

00:20:35.300 that love

00:20:35.840 is an inconsequential phenomenon?

00:20:37.240 Of course not,

00:20:37.960 but it sounds.

00:20:39.740 So you can get

00:20:40.420 all kinds,

00:20:41.840 this,

00:20:42.560 I'm trying to show

00:20:43.300 the way the plausibility

00:20:44.500 machinery just gets

00:20:45.620 misused

00:20:46.720 and misled

00:20:47.600 pervasively

00:20:48.480 in our culture.

00:20:49.500 So you want

00:20:50.320 that balance.

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00:22:27.780 That's another form

00:22:31.760 of triangulation

00:22:33.000 in some sense.

00:22:33.520 Yes, yes.

00:22:34.240 So I wanted to explain

00:22:35.500 to everybody

00:22:36.000 who's listening

00:22:36.760 a little bit more

00:22:37.520 about this idea of entropy

00:22:38.680 just so that

00:22:39.460 it can be made

00:22:40.340 more understandable.

00:22:41.280 So imagine that you're

00:22:42.260 driving to work

00:22:43.600 and you're in your car

00:22:45.760 and your car

00:22:46.340 isn't bothering you.

00:22:47.860 You're not attending

00:22:48.640 to your car

00:22:49.220 apart from the fact

00:22:50.000 that you have to drive it.

00:22:51.340 And the reason

00:22:52.040 that you're not attending

00:22:52.880 to your car

00:22:53.520 is because it's performing

00:22:54.800 its proper function

00:22:55.940 as a car

00:22:56.620 in relationship

00:22:57.280 to your goal

00:22:57.940 which means that

00:22:58.860 it is moving you

00:22:59.660 down the road

00:23:00.480 reliably.

00:23:02.220 Now imagine what happens

00:23:03.640 in your imagination

00:23:04.540 when your car stops.

00:23:06.980 Let's say it stops

00:23:07.760 on a busy highway.

00:23:09.220 Now what's happened

00:23:10.200 is the path length

00:23:11.400 to your destination

00:23:12.860 and to also

00:23:14.680 other multiple

00:23:15.720 potential destinations

00:23:16.920 has now become

00:23:18.080 indeterminately large.

00:23:20.040 So, and then imagine

00:23:21.120 that the search space

00:23:22.120 opens up.

00:23:22.860 It's so like

00:23:23.300 now you're off

00:23:24.620 to the side of the road

00:23:25.620 with your car.

00:23:26.840 Well, your first set

00:23:27.880 of problems

00:23:28.300 is your whole day

00:23:29.720 is now messed up.

00:23:31.300 How are you going

00:23:31.860 to get to work?

00:23:33.200 Right?

00:23:33.460 So you have to compute

00:23:34.700 a whole variety

00:23:35.620 of potential pathways

00:23:36.800 in the world

00:23:37.480 just in relationship

00:23:38.760 to your day.

00:23:39.980 And then,

00:23:40.560 well, you have

00:23:40.920 the broader problem

00:23:41.740 of the fact

00:23:42.280 that your car

00:23:43.080 is now no longer

00:23:44.640 a car.

00:23:45.420 It's a useless

00:23:46.120 chunk of metal

00:23:47.280 that you're trapped

00:23:48.120 in in a dangerous

00:23:49.280 situation.

00:23:50.220 And you have no idea

00:23:51.480 how to fix it

00:23:52.260 and maybe you have

00:23:53.140 no idea

00:23:53.600 where to take it.

00:23:54.440 And so,

00:23:55.480 the collapse

00:23:56.420 of the simplicity

00:23:57.660 of your car

00:23:58.520 as an affordance

00:23:59.560 in relationship

00:24:00.280 to a proximal goal

00:24:01.520 has exposed you

00:24:02.680 to entropy

00:24:03.380 and entropy

00:24:04.280 is the multiplication

00:24:05.280 of the problems

00:24:06.300 that now beset you.

00:24:08.000 And category collapse

00:24:09.060 does that.

00:24:10.280 And so,

00:24:11.340 if you understand this,

00:24:12.640 if you understand

00:24:13.680 that your perception

00:24:14.660 of car

00:24:15.540 is dependent

00:24:16.500 on the maintenance

00:24:17.360 of its function

00:24:18.980 in relationship

00:24:19.600 to a goal,

00:24:20.520 you start to understand

00:24:21.480 something very fundamental

00:24:22.620 about categories

00:24:23.400 themselves

00:24:23.940 because everything

00:24:24.960 you see in the world

00:24:26.040 has this nature.

00:24:27.660 It's a unity of form

00:24:29.780 which is something

00:24:31.420 that the empiricists

00:24:32.500 can concentrate on

00:24:33.580 but it's a unity of form

00:24:35.080 in relationship

00:24:36.120 to a goal

00:24:36.900 and that's built

00:24:37.600 right into the perception

00:24:38.700 of the so-called

00:24:39.780 object itself.

00:24:41.320 And so,

00:24:42.320 your object perception

00:24:44.480 is constraining entropy

00:24:45.920 by organizing

00:24:46.920 the world

00:24:47.600 into categories

00:24:48.920 that are functionally

00:24:49.820 relevant

00:24:50.260 to goals

00:24:51.280 that you maintain

00:24:54.220 either explicitly

00:24:55.320 or even more importantly

00:24:56.960 implicitly.

00:24:58.860 And category collapse

00:24:59.760 produces this increase

00:25:00.800 in entropy.

00:25:01.560 Now,

00:25:01.800 you feel positive emotion

00:25:02.920 when you see yourself

00:25:03.820 moving towards

00:25:04.680 a valued goal

00:25:05.520 and you feel

00:25:06.360 negative emotion

00:25:07.200 when some uncertainty

00:25:08.960 with relationship

00:25:09.860 to that goal

00:25:10.520 is manifested itself

00:25:11.720 or when you encounter

00:25:13.120 say a determinate obstacle

00:25:15.460 that you have to walk around.

00:25:17.300 And so,

00:25:17.720 that's part of the way

00:25:18.660 that to go back

00:25:20.080 to an earlier section

00:25:21.140 of this discussion

00:25:21.860 that you can relate emotion

00:25:23.080 to both cognition

00:25:24.460 and categorization.

00:25:25.860 So,

00:25:26.200 this issue of entropy reduction

00:25:27.480 is crucially important

00:25:28.640 because it's,

00:25:29.720 well,

00:25:30.320 it's at the basis

00:25:31.080 of categorization itself.

00:25:32.860 Now,

00:25:33.360 the reason I'd asked

00:25:35.140 Friston

00:25:36.620 about

00:25:37.480 categories

00:25:39.800 as micro-narratives

00:25:40.980 is because

00:25:42.160 I was very curious,

00:25:44.140 I'm very curious

00:25:45.060 and this is probably

00:25:46.680 more relevant

00:25:47.280 to your work

00:25:47.820 on spirituality.

00:25:49.320 So,

00:25:50.500 one of the things

00:25:51.180 you point out

00:25:51.680 in the recent lecture

00:25:52.360 you did

00:25:52.760 for Ralston College

00:25:54.140 is that

00:25:55.240 even the perception

00:25:57.340 of a given object

00:25:58.220 is dependent

00:25:59.540 on some sense

00:26:00.780 of oneness.

00:26:01.940 Yes.

00:26:02.160 And so,

00:26:02.980 Piaget was very interested

00:26:04.140 in this.

00:26:04.580 It's like,

00:26:05.180 why is this one thing?

00:26:06.800 Yes.

00:26:07.540 Right?

00:26:07.760 Because it's not.

00:26:08.820 There,

00:26:09.160 you know,

00:26:10.360 now it's two things.

00:26:11.880 And things don't have

00:26:12.660 to be physically contiguous

00:26:14.020 to be one thing.

00:26:15.220 Right,

00:26:15.660 right.

00:26:15.940 And so,

00:26:16.380 the question is

00:26:17.020 what constitutes

00:26:18.260 the oneness

00:26:19.080 of the thing

00:26:19.900 given that it's

00:26:20.860 fractionable

00:26:21.540 in an infinite

00:26:22.220 number of ways?

00:26:23.180 Yeah.

00:26:23.580 And so,

00:26:24.600 and then another question

00:26:26.160 that emerges out of that

00:26:27.040 is what makes two

00:26:28.280 cell phones

00:26:30.240 in the same category?

00:26:32.300 Mm-hmm.

00:26:32.540 Okay,

00:26:32.880 so let me run

00:26:34.380 a hypothesis by you.

00:26:35.660 Sure.

00:26:35.820 Tell me what you think

00:26:36.600 about that.

00:26:37.160 Okay.

00:26:37.180 So,

00:26:37.540 I think that

00:26:38.520 things are one.

00:26:42.040 First of all,

00:26:42.860 they're one

00:26:43.300 if you can use them

00:26:44.160 for a specific purpose

00:26:45.360 with a specific

00:26:46.760 sequence of actions

00:26:47.960 in relationship

00:26:48.560 to a given goal.

00:26:49.580 But they're

00:26:50.440 interspersable,

00:26:52.280 so they're the same,

00:26:53.640 if you can replace

00:26:54.840 them functionally

00:26:55.680 in the same

00:26:56.320 pattern of operations

00:26:57.420 with no

00:26:58.720 transformation

00:26:59.720 of the path.

00:27:01.940 Yeah.

00:27:02.040 So,

00:27:02.320 so,

00:27:03.000 they're,

00:27:03.420 they're,

00:27:04.060 they're the same

00:27:05.020 because they're

00:27:05.520 functionally equivalent

00:27:06.280 in relationship

00:27:06.900 to a goal,

00:27:07.480 not because they

00:27:08.160 share a set of features.

00:27:09.680 Mm-hmm.

00:27:09.820 So anything

00:27:10.280 that's swappable

00:27:11.240 is the same.

00:27:12.680 Yeah.

00:27:13.100 But that is dependent

00:27:14.160 on a teleology.

00:27:15.380 It's necessarily

00:27:16.200 dependent on a teleology.

00:27:17.700 Yeah,

00:27:18.060 I mean,

00:27:18.560 this is the,

00:27:19.820 this is the,

00:27:21.540 and this is not

00:27:22.400 a criticism,

00:27:23.440 this is a classical

00:27:24.200 notion of multiple

00:27:25.000 realizability.

00:27:26.020 So I can have

00:27:26.740 the same program,

00:27:28.660 Excel,

00:27:29.600 and I can run it

00:27:30.320 on many different

00:27:30.980 machines.

00:27:32.080 So the actual

00:27:33.600 physical instantiation

00:27:35.200 can be different

00:27:36.460 as long

00:27:37.560 as I'm getting

00:27:38.440 the reliable

00:27:39.180 same generative model,

00:27:40.380 as long as I,

00:27:41.880 I've got the same

00:27:42.800 formal system running.

00:27:44.900 That's why you,

00:27:45.600 that's,

00:27:45.960 in fact,

00:27:46.260 you don't think

00:27:46.740 that there was

00:27:47.440 one pattern,

00:27:48.340 one program here

00:27:49.360 and one program there.

00:27:50.960 Think about it.

00:27:51.680 Think about this

00:27:52.440 abstract entity,

00:27:53.840 a computer program,

00:27:55.000 or even a file.

00:27:56.700 You can,

00:27:57.160 you move it.

00:27:58.180 Yeah.

00:27:58.440 You move,

00:27:59.140 like,

00:27:59.500 what space

00:28:00.740 are you moving it through?

00:28:01.800 Like,

00:28:01.980 the languages

00:28:02.460 come so readily to us.

00:28:03.580 Yeah.

00:28:03.920 You're doing this thing

00:28:04.620 where you're moving it

00:28:05.660 from one computer

00:28:06.540 to another

00:28:07.100 because of exactly that.

00:28:09.660 Because you say,

00:28:10.380 the generative model

00:28:11.820 here and here,

00:28:13.360 there's no,

00:28:14.160 and this is

00:28:14.600 an important qualification,

00:28:15.900 there's no relevant difference.

00:28:17.680 Yes.

00:28:18.460 Like,

00:28:18.740 for example,

00:28:19.480 this one might run

00:28:20.400 a little bit slower

00:28:21.500 on this computer

00:28:22.520 than here,

00:28:23.280 but if it doesn't impact

00:28:24.760 on how you can use it,

00:28:26.060 right,

00:28:26.520 then...

00:28:27.060 Then it's,

00:28:27.780 then it's,

00:28:28.400 it's the same enough.

00:28:29.940 Yes.

00:28:30.400 Now,

00:28:30.900 I wanted to introduce,

00:28:32.320 and this will help

00:28:33.140 get us into

00:28:35.100 a little bit more,

00:28:36.560 I recently published

00:28:37.720 a paper with

00:28:38.340 Brad Anderson

00:28:38.920 and Mark Miller

00:28:39.640 on integrating

00:28:41.560 the relevance

00:28:42.020 realization framework

00:28:43.000 and the predictive

00:28:44.080 processing framework.

00:28:45.520 You want to do

00:28:46.240 entropy reduction,

00:28:47.540 but if you,

00:28:48.680 if you look at

00:28:49.500 network theory,

00:28:50.440 you,

00:28:51.220 and the way you explain it

00:28:52.600 in terms of path reduction

00:28:54.120 is really important here.

00:28:55.180 So,

00:28:55.740 there's three basic

00:28:56.500 kinds of networks.

00:28:57.620 Networks are just ways

00:28:58.500 in which things are connected,

00:28:59.720 like sequences,

00:29:00.800 or the way an airline

00:29:01.960 is connected,

00:29:02.740 or the way the internet

00:29:03.520 is connected,

00:29:04.340 or the way neurons

00:29:05.560 are connected,

00:29:06.900 functional connectivity.

00:29:08.500 So,

00:29:09.000 there's a regular network,

00:29:10.460 which is,

00:29:10.980 nodes are just things

00:29:11.700 that are connected.

00:29:12.600 You have,

00:29:13.260 all the connections

00:29:14.120 are just one step away,

00:29:15.740 node to node,

00:29:16.920 right?

00:29:17.840 And then there's

00:29:18.560 what's called

00:29:19.300 a random network,

00:29:20.220 is where you can have

00:29:21.080 long distance connections,

00:29:23.140 very long distance connection,

00:29:24.640 right?

00:29:24.840 So,

00:29:25.300 I don't have to fly,

00:29:26.660 you know,

00:29:27.000 from Savannah

00:29:27.540 to Atlanta to below,

00:29:28.820 I can just fly directly

00:29:29.680 from Savannah to Toronto,

00:29:31.340 something like that.

00:29:32.140 Yeah.

00:29:32.480 Right.

00:29:32.980 So,

00:29:34.480 the regular network

00:29:35.420 is highly inefficient.

00:29:37.740 The way you measure efficiency

00:29:38.780 is called mean path distance.

00:29:40.500 You take all the distance

00:29:41.580 from all possible combinations.

00:29:43.400 How many steps

00:29:44.040 do I have to go

00:29:44.520 from this point

00:29:45.140 to that point?

00:29:46.260 And then you take all of them

00:29:47.240 and you average them together.

00:29:48.460 You get the mean path distance,

00:29:50.100 the average path distance

00:29:51.120 between any two points.

00:29:52.720 In a regular network,

00:29:53.800 it's very,

00:29:54.460 very,

00:29:54.940 it's very,

00:29:55.720 very high.

00:29:56.800 You have to go through

00:29:57.500 a lot of steps.

00:29:58.740 And a regular network

00:29:59.660 is one where

00:30:00.240 they're all connected.

00:30:01.220 They're all local connection.

00:30:02.200 So when you look at it,

00:30:03.360 it looks beautiful.

00:30:04.060 It's highly ordered

00:30:04.760 because all the lines

00:30:06.220 are the same length

00:30:07.020 and everything.

00:30:08.520 But it's highly inefficient.

00:30:11.000 The random network

00:30:13.300 is highly efficient

00:30:14.120 because you have

00:30:14.560 a lot of these

00:30:15.260 long distance connections

00:30:16.320 that collapse

00:30:17.060 your path,

00:30:19.040 your mean path distance.

00:30:20.980 But you don't,

00:30:21.620 the brain doesn't go

00:30:22.260 for either one of those

00:30:23.060 because there's

00:30:25.220 a trade-off relationship.

00:30:26.620 As I make the network

00:30:28.420 more random

00:30:29.020 to make it more efficient,

00:30:30.060 which sounds like

00:30:30.640 a contradiction

00:30:31.140 in our terms

00:30:31.720 but it's not.

00:30:33.040 I lose,

00:30:33.960 I lose,

00:30:34.640 I lose robustness

00:30:35.740 in the system.

00:30:37.880 So think about it.

00:30:38.840 When you're,

00:30:39.360 when you're,

00:30:40.100 when you have a lot

00:30:40.680 of these little connections,

00:30:41.860 they're often,

00:30:42.500 there's lots of redundancy.

00:30:43.860 Right, yeah.

00:30:44.180 And so I can lose

00:30:45.420 a lot of stuff

00:30:46.560 and I get graceful degradation.

00:30:48.200 I only get a small reduction

00:30:49.740 in functionality.

00:30:51.000 I have this random network.

00:30:52.160 I can take out one link

00:30:53.180 and entire nodes

00:30:54.620 can become isolated

00:30:55.500 from each other.

00:30:56.180 Right,

00:30:56.360 so that's the danger

00:30:57.180 of efficiency

00:30:58.160 versus redundancy.

00:30:59.660 Well, yeah,

00:31:00.040 and so what you,

00:31:00.800 what the brain does

00:31:01.800 is what's called

00:31:02.280 small world networks.

00:31:03.720 Yeah.

00:31:04.320 So a small world network

00:31:05.220 is mostly regular

00:31:06.440 and then one or two

00:31:07.800 long distance connections.

00:31:09.120 Yeah.

00:31:09.540 So I've pointed this out before

00:31:10.780 and,

00:31:11.220 and is that associated

00:31:12.320 with the manner

00:31:13.580 in which the cortical columns

00:31:14.800 organize themselves?

00:31:15.760 Because there's,

00:31:16.300 there's a lot of micro connections

00:31:18.400 within cortical columns

00:31:19.680 that are very fast

00:31:20.520 and efficient

00:31:20.980 and relatively sparse connections

00:31:23.000 between cortical columns.

00:31:24.400 Yeah, yeah.

00:31:24.980 The cortex,

00:31:25.860 by the way,

00:31:26.180 the cortex is made up

00:31:27.120 of these cortical columns

00:31:28.120 which are replicated units

00:31:30.340 of about,

00:31:31.140 I think it's 100,000 neurons

00:31:32.980 each with 10,000 connections

00:31:34.860 per neuron,

00:31:36.040 something like that.

00:31:36.900 And then that structure

00:31:37.620 is replicated.

00:31:38.320 That makes up

00:31:38.800 the cortical sheet.

00:31:39.960 So,

00:31:40.560 I mean,

00:31:40.860 everything we're talking

00:31:41.520 about right now

00:31:42.060 is in one sense

00:31:43.920 controversial.

00:31:44.660 There's lots,

00:31:45.120 I'm not saying anything

00:31:46.080 that doesn't have

00:31:46.580 a lot of good

00:31:47.200 empirical evidence for it.

00:31:48.720 But,

00:31:49.220 you know,

00:31:49.340 we're relying on technologies

00:31:50.780 that are still

00:31:51.660 like fMRI

00:31:52.860 and dense EEG

00:31:53.840 that don't give us

00:31:55.040 the kind of precision,

00:31:56.300 like,

00:31:56.640 so I want to say that,

00:31:58.300 I'm not saying anything

00:31:59.180 ridiculous here,

00:32:00.520 but I don't want to claim,

00:32:01.900 like,

00:32:02.100 we've concluded.

00:32:02.520 Subject to revision.

00:32:03.660 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:32:04.420 Right.

00:32:04.880 But it looks like

00:32:06.160 the brain is organized

00:32:08.160 at multiple levels

00:32:09.820 of analysis,

00:32:10.540 not only top down

00:32:11.720 but back front

00:32:12.500 and in out

00:32:13.240 in small world network formation.

00:32:15.260 And here's some

00:32:16.200 really interesting things.

00:32:17.820 So,

00:32:18.100 you give somebody

00:32:18.740 propofol

00:32:20.120 and you take them

00:32:20.840 into unconscious,

00:32:21.960 the brain will go

00:32:22.580 from being a global

00:32:23.520 small world network

00:32:24.380 into,

00:32:25.200 it'll break up

00:32:25.840 into small local

00:32:26.660 regular networks.

00:32:28.040 And then as you bring

00:32:29.000 them back into consciousness,

00:32:30.320 it'll go from those

00:32:31.020 local regular networks

00:32:32.240 back into

00:32:33.360 a comprehensive

00:32:34.640 small world network.

00:32:35.060 So,

00:32:35.360 Carhartt Harris talks

00:32:36.480 about criticality

00:32:37.420 in consciousness.

00:32:38.320 And so,

00:32:38.680 how do you understand...

00:32:39.780 Totally,

00:32:41.040 totally,

00:32:41.400 yeah.

00:32:41.780 So,

00:32:42.000 how do you understand

00:32:42.860 the relationship

00:32:43.660 between...

00:32:45.020 So,

00:32:45.660 Carhartt Harris

00:32:46.320 and other people,

00:32:47.100 and I talked about this

00:32:47.900 in Maps of Reading,

00:32:48.580 it's right on the edge

00:32:49.120 of criticality.

00:32:49.520 Yeah,

00:32:49.760 exactly.

00:32:50.340 And it's on the border

00:32:51.420 between chaos and order.

00:32:52.720 Totally, totally.

00:32:53.520 Okay,

00:32:53.760 so how is that related?

00:32:54.780 How do you understand

00:32:55.420 the relationship

00:32:55.900 between that connectivity?

00:32:57.320 It's great.

00:32:57.860 Okay.

00:32:58.280 And then I want to bring it

00:32:59.780 to a phenomenon

00:33:00.340 of insight

00:33:00.940 because insight

00:33:01.520 has that combination

00:33:02.420 of initial surprise

00:33:04.740 and then long-term gain.

00:33:08.060 Yeah, yeah.

00:33:08.720 We talked about it.

00:33:09.300 Is it long-term

00:33:09.980 or iterable gain?

00:33:11.820 It depends.

00:33:12.360 I mean,

00:33:12.660 you can have a systematic insight.

00:33:16.340 You can have the kind of insight

00:33:17.320 that Piaget talks about

00:33:18.280 which is not an insight

00:33:19.040 into this problem.

00:33:20.460 It's an insight

00:33:21.060 into a system.

00:33:22.000 Yeah, yeah.

00:33:22.640 Or you can have just

00:33:23.340 an insight into this problem

00:33:24.520 like the nine-dot problem

00:33:25.520 and it's just in the future

00:33:26.980 you'll know how to do that.

00:33:27.920 And the first insight

00:33:29.060 would be a deeper insight

00:33:30.120 than the second one.

00:33:30.840 Yes.

00:33:31.200 And that's like

00:33:31.660 a technical definition

00:33:32.600 of deep.

00:33:33.360 Yes, yes, exactly.

00:33:34.460 Which is a fun thing.

00:33:35.360 That's something

00:33:35.760 we should talk about too

00:33:36.720 is what it means technically

00:33:37.880 for something to be deep.

00:33:39.120 Okay,

00:33:39.340 so back to consciousness

00:33:40.280 and network organization.

00:33:42.040 Right, okay,

00:33:42.680 so we talked about

00:33:43.280 small world network

00:33:44.220 and so what the brain

00:33:46.240 seems to be doing is

00:33:47.120 and especially the work

00:33:49.600 I've done recently

00:33:50.200 with Brad and Mark,

00:33:51.420 it's not just redundancy.

00:33:53.080 The brain is training

00:33:54.460 between,

00:33:55.320 and this is helpful

00:33:55.980 because it's now two E's,

00:33:56.860 between efficiency

00:33:57.540 and evolvability

00:33:59.080 in the technical sense

00:34:00.480 that's coming out of biology

00:34:01.860 which is,

00:34:02.920 the term is degeneracy

00:34:04.120 but I don't like to use

00:34:05.160 the term degeneracy

00:34:06.160 because it means

00:34:06.800 it's degenerate away from a,

00:34:08.360 because when the average person

00:34:10.600 hears that,

00:34:11.160 it's degeneracy,

00:34:12.100 what the hell?

00:34:12.580 Wrong connotations, man.

00:34:13.780 Yeah, bad naming,

00:34:14.640 bad naming.

00:34:15.540 So evolvability is,

00:34:17.120 you want enough redundancy

00:34:19.100 and overlap

00:34:19.940 in your system.

00:34:21.300 To be resilient.

00:34:22.140 Right,

00:34:22.420 so just quick,

00:34:23.320 just very quick,

00:34:24.360 you have the robustness problem

00:34:26.020 in biology

00:34:27.060 which is,

00:34:28.020 you want a lot of variation

00:34:29.000 in the species

00:34:29.680 but you don't want to be

00:34:31.020 the individual

00:34:31.560 that has the variation

00:34:32.560 because you're,

00:34:34.000 chances are

00:34:34.580 you're going to get killed.

00:34:36.040 Right?

00:34:36.560 So what you do is you,

00:34:38.380 and this is the work

00:34:39.180 of Andreas Wagner,

00:34:41.060 you,

00:34:41.640 at the level

00:34:43.140 of the genotype,

00:34:45.020 you have quite a bit

00:34:46.220 of this degeneracy

00:34:48.620 and overlap

00:34:49.400 and evolvability

00:34:50.080 in,

00:34:51.520 right,

00:34:52.000 in the genome

00:34:53.380 but it doesn't show up

00:34:55.120 in phenotypical differences

00:34:56.340 so there's not

00:34:56.900 significant behavior

00:34:57.860 but soon as there's

00:34:58.680 a change in the environment

00:34:59.660 the genome is ready

00:35:01.440 to shift

00:35:02.140 and produce

00:35:03.120 a new phenotypical behavior.

00:35:05.680 So that's what I...

00:35:06.660 Do you know

00:35:06.780 that the older

00:35:07.580 the,

00:35:07.960 the older

00:35:09.300 the,

00:35:10.280 the,

00:35:11.500 the,

00:35:11.840 the gene structure

00:35:13.400 that codes

00:35:14.440 for morphology

00:35:15.560 the less likely

00:35:16.380 it is to avoid

00:35:17.660 correction

00:35:18.420 if it's mutated?

00:35:19.520 Yes.

00:35:20.120 Yes,

00:35:20.420 that's a relatively

00:35:21.080 new finding.

00:35:21.940 So it looks like

00:35:23.000 even at the,

00:35:23.680 at the mutation level

00:35:25.000 that biology will,

00:35:26.960 will play

00:35:27.840 with the fringes

00:35:28.880 but leave the,

00:35:29.640 center intact.

00:35:30.420 So mutations

00:35:31.520 are basically random

00:35:32.460 and they can occur

00:35:33.220 anywhere in the genome

00:35:34.100 but if it's a fundamental

00:35:35.520 element of the genome

00:35:36.560 the error correction systems

00:35:37.980 replace it back

00:35:38.760 to exactly what it was.

00:35:39.960 Yes.

00:35:40.340 So I think that's

00:35:41.320 analogous to this issue

00:35:42.380 we're getting at

00:35:42.960 in terms of optimized learning.

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00:36:51.340 yeah so you want

00:36:55.740 you want your system

00:36:56.720 like you know

00:36:58.980 in the 80s

00:36:59.980 when they did the downsizing

00:37:01.120 in the corporations

00:37:01.800 to make them very efficient

00:37:03.060 and the problem

00:37:03.580 right the problem is

00:37:04.920 they became brittle

00:37:06.160 they couldn't

00:37:07.540 if there was a sudden

00:37:08.760 change in the market

00:37:09.460 because everybody's

00:37:10.220 working at their max

00:37:11.120 well Bob can you do

00:37:12.420 this as well

00:37:12.840 no I'm sorry

00:37:13.560 I'm working

00:37:13.980 there's no evolvability

00:37:16.640 in this system

00:37:17.320 and so there's

00:37:19.040 a lot of work

00:37:19.620 coming out now

00:37:20.320 that natural selection

00:37:22.440 doesn't just select

00:37:23.520 for traits

00:37:24.360 it selects for the

00:37:25.380 meta trait

00:37:25.840 of evolvability

00:37:26.680 because

00:37:27.500 if you and I

00:37:29.780 are basically equal

00:37:30.840 and we have more

00:37:31.680 evolvability

00:37:32.220 as long as the

00:37:32.920 environment's stable

00:37:34.200 nothing's gonna

00:37:35.240 right

00:37:36.300 differentiated

00:37:37.700 yeah

00:37:38.120 but if there's

00:37:39.040 a sudden change

00:37:39.700 in the environment

00:37:40.320 I'll get what's called

00:37:41.360 I'll get the innovator

00:37:42.500 advantage

00:37:43.700 yeah

00:37:44.140 I will evolve faster

00:37:45.760 and then I will go

00:37:46.620 into the new niche

00:37:47.620 and I might not be

00:37:48.720 optimally fitted

00:37:49.440 for that niche

00:37:50.240 right

00:37:50.840 but I will propagate

00:37:52.120 and fill that niche

00:37:53.100 so much

00:37:53.920 that it's

00:37:54.580 that's general

00:37:55.100 cognitive ability

00:37:56.000 yes

00:37:56.420 yes

00:37:56.900 yes

00:37:57.340 okay so

00:37:58.220 right

00:37:58.940 so what you're doing

00:38:00.240 now back to

00:38:01.060 self-organizing

00:38:01.640 criticality

00:38:02.060 so

00:38:02.760 what you're doing

00:38:03.980 is

00:38:04.360 and this is

00:38:06.040 it goes to a paper

00:38:06.740 I published with

00:38:07.360 Leo Ferrara

00:38:07.860 way back in 2013

00:38:09.220 we actually

00:38:10.060 talked about this

00:38:11.140 at one point

00:38:11.600 you used to have

00:38:12.020 the metapsychology group

00:38:13.100 that eventually

00:38:14.020 came up to publication

00:38:14.920 so by the way

00:38:15.680 thank you

00:38:15.980 good good good

00:38:16.940 good

00:38:17.280 so again

00:38:18.780 subject to revision

00:38:20.680 but what looks like

00:38:21.740 happening

00:38:22.120 the brain is

00:38:23.200 oscillating between

00:38:24.340 two different states

00:38:26.120 there's

00:38:27.020 the neurons fire

00:38:28.240 in synchrony

00:38:28.940 and that seems

00:38:30.160 to do something

00:38:30.800 like data compression

00:38:31.880 and data compression

00:38:32.780 is like when you

00:38:33.460 draw the line

00:38:33.940 and best fit

00:38:34.520 on a scatter plot

00:38:35.380 you're basically

00:38:36.640 you're throwing out

00:38:37.960 a lot of variants

00:38:39.520 so that you get

00:38:40.440 clean interpolation

00:38:42.080 and extrapolation

00:38:43.080 so you get

00:38:43.780 generalizability

00:38:44.520 that's gist

00:38:44.940 in some sense

00:38:45.560 yes

00:38:45.760 you get

00:38:46.100 gist allows you

00:38:47.320 to generalize

00:38:47.920 the two g's

00:38:48.540 right

00:38:48.700 gist allows you

00:38:49.660 to generalize

00:38:50.220 okay

00:38:50.840 right

00:38:51.720 now

00:38:52.640 but then

00:38:53.420 the brain

00:38:54.600 avalanches

00:38:55.960 all the neurons

00:38:58.140 will fire

00:38:59.100 in asynchrony

00:39:00.040 now what that does

00:39:01.180 is that

00:39:01.680 mutual predictability

00:39:03.140 goes down

00:39:04.440 entropy

00:39:05.120 is going up

00:39:06.020 why would the brain

00:39:06.700 do that

00:39:06.980 because when it

00:39:07.740 does that

00:39:08.540 that opens up

00:39:09.500 an opportunity

00:39:10.400 for it to evolve

00:39:11.560 anew

00:39:12.360 that's what the

00:39:13.060 psychedelics are doing

00:39:13.900 then

00:39:14.060 yes

00:39:14.360 yes

00:39:14.840 right

00:39:15.200 and so what the

00:39:15.840 brain is doing

00:39:16.360 is it's constantly

00:39:17.220 right

00:39:18.320 it self-organizes

00:39:21.220 and then it goes

00:39:22.280 critical

00:39:22.820 it breaks up

00:39:23.540 not too much

00:39:24.660 it breaks up

00:39:25.460 enough

00:39:26.080 so that it can

00:39:27.160 now reconfigure

00:39:27.900 in something different

00:39:28.960 and so what you're doing

00:39:30.680 is you're not just

00:39:31.240 getting a one shot

00:39:32.160 you're actually

00:39:33.440 exploring

00:39:34.120 different generalizations

00:39:35.560 that are possible

00:39:36.260 within the state space

00:39:37.640 did that make

00:39:39.480 so if you can get

00:39:41.560 the brain

00:39:41.960 on that edge

00:39:43.260 right

00:39:43.700 where it's constantly

00:39:44.560 doing this

00:39:45.120 and there's been some

00:39:46.120 okay so now

00:39:46.880 that also

00:39:47.460 well that takes us

00:39:48.440 very interestingly

00:39:49.200 so and people

00:39:50.340 should attend to this

00:39:51.200 because I think

00:39:51.640 it's crucial

00:39:52.140 is that

00:39:52.640 we have a

00:39:55.500 debate in our

00:39:56.640 society

00:39:57.320 probably since

00:39:58.460 the enlightenment

00:39:59.320 about whether

00:40:00.200 the phenomenon

00:40:01.200 of meaning

00:40:02.180 is real

00:40:03.180 in any real sense

00:40:04.560 and it tends

00:40:05.780 to be downplayed

00:40:06.540 by empiricists

00:40:07.320 because it's not

00:40:08.020 objective

00:40:08.500 but it seems

00:40:10.120 to me highly

00:40:10.700 probable

00:40:11.240 that the sense

00:40:12.320 of meaning

00:40:12.820 most fundamentally

00:40:13.780 is a signal

00:40:15.280 of the operation

00:40:16.640 of the optimization

00:40:17.400 of this process

00:40:18.660 is that

00:40:19.540 right

00:40:19.800 is that

00:40:20.200 we want to put

00:40:20.980 ourselves

00:40:21.360 on the edge

00:40:22.640 where things

00:40:23.840 are predictable

00:40:24.480 enough so that

00:40:25.160 we get what

00:40:25.680 we need

00:40:26.040 and want

00:40:26.600 but so that

00:40:27.540 at the same time

00:40:28.360 we're expanding

00:40:29.160 our adaptive

00:40:29.880 competence

00:40:30.420 in a variety

00:40:31.120 of domains

00:40:31.620 simultaneously

00:40:32.240 right

00:40:32.740 and I think

00:40:33.360 meaning

00:40:33.720 so here's a way

00:40:35.100 of thinking

00:40:35.420 about this

00:40:35.860 existentially

00:40:36.580 so imagine

00:40:37.700 that you're

00:40:38.600 pursuing a given

00:40:39.380 goal

00:40:39.800 whatever it is

00:40:40.680 maybe you want

00:40:41.240 to get married

00:40:41.760 you want

00:40:42.240 to have children

00:40:42.780 and then you think

00:40:43.860 well who the hell

00:40:44.800 cares in a hundred

00:40:45.520 thousand years

00:40:46.060 what difference

00:40:46.640 is it going

00:40:47.020 to make anyways

00:40:47.700 and then all

00:40:48.500 your motivational

00:40:49.240 energy is drained

00:40:50.220 out by that

00:40:50.920 sort of nihilistic

00:40:51.680 thought

00:40:52.060 now one thing

00:40:53.580 you can think

00:40:54.160 in relationship

00:40:54.700 to that is

00:40:55.380 well that nihilistic

00:40:56.860 thought is accurate

00:40:57.740 because that's a

00:40:58.620 superordinate time frame

00:40:59.900 and if you had any sense

00:41:00.920 that's the time frame

00:41:01.980 across which you

00:41:02.660 would evaluate things

00:41:03.640 and you just have

00:41:04.680 to pay the price

00:41:05.540 of the non

00:41:06.240 of the meaninglessness

00:41:07.700 of your life

00:41:08.700 or you could say

00:41:10.000 well wait a second

00:41:11.320 if I'm pursuing a goal

00:41:13.560 and I use a frame

00:41:14.520 of interpretation

00:41:15.140 that renders it

00:41:16.320 amotivational

00:41:17.960 one possibility

00:41:19.240 is that I'm using

00:41:20.760 a counterproductive

00:41:22.020 frame of reference

00:41:22.740 and that's actually

00:41:23.500 what my nervous system

00:41:24.440 is signaling to me

00:41:25.460 so one of the

00:41:26.600 discussions we could have

00:41:27.940 is like

00:41:28.320 is it reasonable

00:41:29.680 epistemologically

00:41:30.680 and even ontologically

00:41:32.000 to use your sense

00:41:33.920 of deep meaning

00:41:34.720 as a guide

00:41:35.840 to optimal functioning

00:41:37.520 in the world

00:41:37.900 I think it's the instinct

00:41:39.220 that is literally

00:41:40.180 that guide

00:41:41.020 so I think

00:41:42.920 there's like

00:41:45.080 seven things

00:41:45.800 I want to say

00:41:46.380 that's really powerful

00:41:47.440 first thing

00:41:49.040 I think Thomas Nagel

00:41:50.620 is right

00:41:51.060 nihilism

00:41:53.200 is not generated

00:41:55.140 by argument

00:41:56.480 because the arguments

00:41:57.360 are actually

00:41:57.920 technically not valid

00:41:59.120 so if someone says

00:42:00.900 well 100,000 years

00:42:02.340 from now

00:42:04.080 it won't matter

00:42:04.580 it's symmetrical

00:42:06.060 what's happening

00:42:07.580 100,000 years

00:42:08.860 from now

00:42:09.740 doesn't matter to you

00:42:11.020 right

00:42:11.580 it has no normative

00:42:12.820 demand

00:42:13.160 why is that

00:42:13.720 why is that

00:42:14.920 a relevant fact

00:42:15.800 exactly

00:42:16.340 yes yes

00:42:16.800 because you're making

00:42:17.500 an implicit presumption

00:42:18.580 exactly

00:42:18.880 that the wider

00:42:19.440 time frame

00:42:20.020 exactly

00:42:20.600 yeah yes

00:42:21.340 exactly

00:42:21.860 exactly

00:42:22.340 so that's the first point

00:42:23.440 right

00:42:23.960 and so for him

00:42:25.240 and I agree with him

00:42:26.140 it's not a matter

00:42:26.780 of a propositional argument

00:42:28.040 it's a matter of

00:42:29.220 you haven't learned

00:42:29.980 how to properly

00:42:30.860 integrate

00:42:31.680 your different perspectives

00:42:33.300 you're a medium

00:42:34.280 first person perspective

00:42:35.560 the cosmic

00:42:36.080 and you know

00:42:36.900 this is why I think

00:42:37.620 things like

00:42:38.500 you know

00:42:38.780 40 cognitive science

00:42:39.800 and neoplatonism

00:42:40.500 are about

00:42:41.180 how do we properly

00:42:42.920 cultivate the virtues

00:42:44.660 for managing

00:42:45.560 and improving

00:42:47.100 the relationship

00:42:47.900 between our perspectives

00:42:49.600 yes

00:42:49.980 that's the

00:42:50.780 Jacob's Ladder problem

00:42:51.800 yes yes

00:42:52.480 so that

00:42:53.480 second thing

00:42:54.260 is

00:42:54.740 and this goes towards

00:42:56.200 you know

00:42:56.480 and this is something

00:42:56.980 you and I

00:42:57.340 have both talked

00:42:57.960 in common

00:42:58.380 and I

00:42:58.680 you know

00:42:59.520 we have in common

00:43:00.820 we've talked a lot about

00:43:01.560 and I was privileged

00:43:02.520 to work with John Kennedy

00:43:03.840 is the notion

00:43:05.520 of you know

00:43:06.260 real relationship

00:43:07.120 Gibson's notion

00:43:07.880 of affordance

00:43:08.560 is a crucial one

00:43:09.460 right

00:43:10.020 is that

00:43:10.420 no no no

00:43:10.940 let's go to

00:43:12.100 you know

00:43:12.980 biology

00:43:13.880 and adaptivity

00:43:15.020 is adaptivity

00:43:15.840 in the organism

00:43:16.720 of course not

00:43:17.300 that doesn't make any sense

00:43:18.180 is the great white chart

00:43:18.980 adaptive

00:43:19.900 well not if you put it

00:43:21.000 in the Sahara desert

00:43:22.220 like is the adaptivity

00:43:24.020 in the environment

00:43:24.680 well that doesn't make any

00:43:25.660 it's a real relationship

00:43:27.440 between

00:43:28.280 it's the way

00:43:28.860 they're really coupled

00:43:29.620 and there are real couplings

00:43:30.900 that make a real difference

00:43:32.520 right

00:43:33.060 and so

00:43:33.940 we have to get away

00:43:36.180 from

00:43:36.780 like

00:43:37.640 we have to get away

00:43:38.980 from that Cartesian

00:43:40.040 exhaustive

00:43:40.720 the problem with the

00:43:41.560 Cartesian exhaustive divide

00:43:42.800 is it gives you nothing

00:43:43.560 that relates the subjective

00:43:44.600 to the objective

00:43:45.340 which means truth

00:43:46.320 is not possible

00:43:47.800 right

00:43:48.200 but it also means

00:43:49.000 that meaning evaporates

00:43:50.020 in some real sense

00:43:50.800 because it's reduced

00:43:51.560 to the subjective

00:43:52.360 and then that's reduced

00:43:53.680 to the arbitrary

00:43:54.440 and then that just

00:43:55.680 disintegrates

00:43:56.400 and that doesn't work

00:43:57.560 because

00:43:57.880 well I don't think

00:43:59.000 it works biologically

00:43:59.860 either

00:44:00.240 because

00:44:00.640 meaning does appear

00:44:03.160 to me to be

00:44:03.880 something akin

00:44:04.860 to a profound instinct

00:44:06.000 and

00:44:06.740 even from an objective

00:44:08.820 perspective

00:44:09.440 you have to make

00:44:10.780 the supposition

00:44:11.980 that

00:44:12.380 an actual

00:44:14.200 biological instinct

00:44:15.460 is real

00:44:16.280 and so

00:44:17.220 the idea

00:44:18.480 of the object

00:44:19.400 eats itself

00:44:20.240 in that regard

00:44:21.040 in some fundamental sense

00:44:22.200 this is kind of the argument

00:44:23.000 that I always tried to have

00:44:24.060 with Sam Harris

00:44:24.760 it's like

00:44:25.200 there's a contradiction

00:44:26.720 between

00:44:27.280 the Darwinian notion

00:44:28.860 of reality

00:44:29.420 and the Newtonian

00:44:30.900 or Cartesian

00:44:31.940 idea of reality

00:44:33.140 because there's a reality

00:44:34.400 that has something to do

00:44:35.480 with this notion

00:44:36.180 of fit

00:44:36.840 right

00:44:37.420 of relationship

00:44:39.260 between the subjective

00:44:40.280 and the objective

00:44:41.000 right

00:44:41.260 and the Newtonian

00:44:43.220 and the Cartesian

00:44:43.900 are formal systems

00:44:45.100 Darwin's theory

00:44:46.580 of evolution

00:44:47.060 is the first

00:44:48.020 significant

00:44:48.820 and important

00:44:49.380 dynamical systems

00:44:50.480 theory

00:44:50.840 within science

00:44:51.940 in which

00:44:52.500 the self-organization

00:44:53.940 of the system

00:44:54.620 and its coupling

00:44:55.740 to the world

00:44:56.740 are constitutive

00:44:58.040 of the kind

00:44:58.800 of entity

00:44:59.660 it is

00:45:00.320 right

00:45:00.720 including as

00:45:01.660 entities

00:45:03.500 of categorization

00:45:04.540 and perception

00:45:05.140 yes

00:45:05.600 now

00:45:06.060 let's go back

00:45:07.320 to the adaptivity

00:45:08.400 and the self-organizing

00:45:10.660 so the self-organizing

00:45:11.560 criticality

00:45:12.140 think about what it's doing

00:45:13.100 think about how it is

00:45:14.700 Darwinian

00:45:15.800 right

00:45:16.560 so you get

00:45:17.240 you get the avalanche

00:45:18.460 that introduces variation

00:45:19.800 and then you get

00:45:20.600 the compression

00:45:21.160 that selects from it

00:45:22.300 and then a new variation

00:45:24.200 and

00:45:24.960 so what the brain

00:45:26.320 is doing

00:45:26.780 Mike

00:45:28.520 is it's implementing

00:45:29.600 the same grammar

00:45:31.820 by which biological

00:45:33.380 evolution across species

00:45:34.800 are fitting them

00:45:35.640 to the environment

00:45:36.240 your brain is doing

00:45:37.240 this self-organizing

00:45:38.020 criticality

00:45:38.720 that is constantly

00:45:39.820 evolving

00:45:40.820 your adaptive

00:45:41.760 your cognitive

00:45:43.100 adaptive fit

00:45:43.960 to the environment

00:45:44.520 so that's also why

00:45:45.720 just to point out

00:45:46.540 to everyone

00:45:46.860 that's actually also

00:45:47.900 why zero-sum

00:45:48.820 economic models

00:45:49.760 are false

00:45:50.500 is because

00:45:51.540 the zero-sum

00:45:52.300 economic model

00:45:53.220 presumes a fixed

00:45:54.760 reality in relationship

00:45:56.060 to affordances

00:45:56.980 and there is no

00:45:57.980 fixed reality

00:45:58.660 and the way that

00:45:59.560 we've

00:46:00.760 superseded

00:46:01.840 the limits

00:46:02.860 to growth

00:46:03.380 in perhaps

00:46:04.260 not an absolute

00:46:04.900 sense

00:46:05.280 but in some

00:46:05.700 very important sense

00:46:06.620 is that we do

00:46:07.320 have this capacity

00:46:08.180 I think it was

00:46:08.580 Alfred North Whitehead

00:46:09.460 said that we can

00:46:10.480 let our ideas

00:46:11.020 and concepts

00:46:11.600 die instead of us

00:46:12.680 right

00:46:13.260 and so

00:46:13.660 we can

00:46:14.820 you might say

00:46:15.820 well it's a zero-sum

00:46:16.760 game

00:46:17.240 economically speaking

00:46:19.060 there's only so much

00:46:20.080 that you and I

00:46:20.600 can share

00:46:21.160 but there's an

00:46:22.740 implicit part of

00:46:23.500 that argument

00:46:23.920 which is

00:46:24.460 well given

00:46:25.460 the manner

00:46:25.960 in which we've

00:46:26.560 structured our

00:46:27.020 relationships

00:46:27.500 and the environment

00:46:28.300 that might be true

00:46:29.840 but then

00:46:30.440 it's an open

00:46:31.060 question

00:46:31.480 how much

00:46:32.020 restructuring

00:46:32.780 of those

00:46:33.140 a priori axioms

00:46:34.000 can we do

00:46:34.660 and the answer

00:46:35.480 is

00:46:35.800 well an indefinite

00:46:37.020 amount

00:46:37.360 we're unbelievably

00:46:38.160 good at that

00:46:38.900 and we can do

00:46:39.420 more with less

00:46:40.040 all the time

00:46:41.020 yes

00:46:41.240 I agree with that

00:46:42.740 and

00:46:43.180 and

00:46:43.800 and

00:46:44.700 and that

00:46:46.680 I mean

00:46:47.340 because we can

00:46:48.320 take it up

00:46:48.740 into levels

00:46:49.360 of symbolic

00:46:50.660 abstraction

00:46:51.520 well you know

00:46:51.980 this

00:46:52.180 you get

00:46:52.780 you put

00:46:53.560 person in

00:46:54.080 saying

00:46:54.260 I'll give you

00:46:54.940 five dollars

00:46:55.480 will you take it

00:46:56.180 of course

00:46:56.660 now you put them

00:46:57.600 in this situation

00:46:58.260 I'll give you

00:46:58.940 five dollars

00:46:59.500 and I give you

00:47:00.240 ten dollars

00:47:00.760 but you only

00:47:01.620 get to keep

00:47:02.080 your five

00:47:02.520 if you let him

00:47:03.140 keep his ten

00:47:03.700 I don't want it

00:47:05.380 even though

00:47:06.280 they could get

00:47:06.900 the five dollars

00:47:07.620 they don't want

00:47:08.820 to belong

00:47:09.340 to the system

00:47:10.220 that is

00:47:11.400 right

00:47:11.820 right

00:47:12.080 right

00:47:12.280 so they move

00:47:12.960 up a level

00:47:13.460 of abstraction

00:47:14.000 they don't want

00:47:14.740 to participate

00:47:15.340 in what they see

00:47:16.000 as perceived

00:47:16.560 unfairness

00:47:17.300 and that's I think

00:47:18.360 because they're

00:47:18.820 playing a metagame

00:47:19.660 in that situation

00:47:20.640 right

00:47:20.920 and what I was

00:47:21.440 going to say

00:47:21.840 is like

00:47:22.320 the degree

00:47:23.420 to which we can

00:47:24.000 abstract the metagames

00:47:25.540 we're playing

00:47:26.140 I don't know

00:47:30.560 of any formal

00:47:31.420 argument that says

00:47:32.320 it stops at this

00:47:33.300 level

00:47:33.960 to go towards

00:47:34.720 your point

00:47:35.060 now bring it

00:47:36.220 back one more

00:47:36.820 thing around

00:47:37.320 so the brain

00:47:38.240 is evolving

00:47:39.100 it's

00:47:40.100 and I think

00:47:41.320 this has a lot

00:47:41.900 this is what

00:47:42.420 basically is going

00:47:43.480 on in relevance

00:47:43.960 realization

00:47:44.320 you can see it

00:47:45.000 in your attention

00:47:45.620 you know

00:47:46.540 default mode

00:47:47.320 and task center

00:47:48.460 default is making

00:47:49.600 you mind wander

00:47:50.340 and you introduce

00:47:51.140 variation

00:47:51.680 and then task

00:47:52.520 selects

00:47:53.780 and then you vary

00:47:54.600 you kill off

00:47:55.240 most of the variations

00:47:56.020 but some of them

00:47:56.800 come in

00:47:57.300 because you mind

00:47:58.080 wandered enough

00:47:58.540 you can do this

00:47:59.740 in Stephan and Dixon

00:48:00.800 you give people

00:48:01.580 a problem

00:48:02.180 like an insight problem

00:48:03.060 and they're impassing

00:48:03.880 they can't solve it

00:48:04.720 and you just introduce

00:48:05.820 a little bit of entropy

00:48:06.680 into the system

00:48:07.360 like you put some static

00:48:08.340 on the computer screen

00:48:09.620 or you shake it

00:48:10.320 and then they'll have

00:48:11.060 the insight

00:48:11.560 because it puts in

00:48:12.560 enough criticality

00:48:13.520 right

00:48:13.760 so they stop

00:48:14.460 this unidimensional

00:48:15.420 task focused attention

00:48:16.920 right

00:48:17.320 and it allows

00:48:17.820 the spread of activation

00:48:19.600 right

00:48:19.840 and then

00:48:20.180 and then they reselect

00:48:21.420 and they evolve

00:48:22.280 a new way of framing

00:48:23.460 the problem

00:48:24.260 you get the

00:48:24.640 right

00:48:24.960 well so that would mean

00:48:26.020 in some sense

00:48:26.740 okay so imagine

00:48:27.540 that you snap out

00:48:28.460 of goal focused attention

00:48:29.880 this reminds me

00:48:30.900 of the psychoanalytic idea

00:48:32.120 so Freud would put

00:48:33.000 his clients

00:48:33.840 into a state

00:48:34.520 of free association

00:48:35.260 right

00:48:35.760 and so Freud's

00:48:36.880 tack was

00:48:37.560 when a woman experiences

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00:48:42.000 she often feels

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00:48:46.760 an abortion

00:48:47.240 because that's what

00:48:48.520 left-leaning institutions

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00:49:47.620 pre-born.com

00:49:48.620 slash Jordan

00:49:49.380 that's pre-born.com

00:49:51.140 slash Jordan

00:49:51.980 try just to say

00:49:57.020 whatever comes

00:49:57.860 into your mind

00:49:58.480 or describe your

00:49:59.360 fantasies

00:49:59.980 and just let yourself

00:50:01.440 talk right

00:50:02.080 no self-censorship

00:50:03.040 and so really

00:50:03.660 what he meant

00:50:04.120 by that was

00:50:04.820 abandon any

00:50:06.380 instrumental goal

00:50:08.040 focused attention

00:50:08.980 for the moment

00:50:09.640 and let your mind

00:50:10.600 wander

00:50:11.020 Jung did a lot

00:50:11.720 of this too

00:50:12.120 because he did

00:50:12.660 a lot of

00:50:13.480 purposeful fantasizing

00:50:15.420 right

00:50:15.620 he just let his

00:50:16.260 well

00:50:16.580 that's a contradiction

00:50:18.220 in terms

00:50:18.740 he let his mind

00:50:19.860 wander

00:50:20.300 he would have

00:50:20.780 discussions with

00:50:21.540 the characters

00:50:22.120 of his imagination

00:50:22.900 for example

00:50:23.640 it's very hallucinogenic

00:50:24.700 in some real sense

00:50:25.720 but you can imagine

00:50:27.160 that

00:50:27.420 imagine there's

00:50:29.560 a hierarchy of goals

00:50:30.780 yeah

00:50:31.180 and

00:50:32.380 you move from

00:50:34.420 a unity

00:50:34.820 at the top

00:50:35.340 of the hierarchy

00:50:35.880 to a plurality

00:50:36.840 yes

00:50:37.240 at any given

00:50:38.180 moment when you're

00:50:38.820 focusing your attention

00:50:39.780 you're using

00:50:41.360 the center focus

00:50:42.980 of your attention

00:50:43.700 as the main source

00:50:44.820 of unity

00:50:45.300 and that's reducing

00:50:46.480 everything to an

00:50:47.360 a priori set of

00:50:48.360 perceptions and principles

00:50:49.380 but then you let

00:50:50.340 that go

00:50:50.900 well now you have

00:50:51.760 these diverse networks

00:50:53.000 in your brain

00:50:53.620 that can

00:50:54.040 they all have

00:50:55.320 a slightly different

00:50:56.480 way of looking

00:50:57.180 at the same situation

00:50:58.300 and you can let

00:50:59.240 them have

00:50:59.640 an internal

00:51:00.240 dialogue

00:51:00.800 essentially

00:51:01.140 and some of those

00:51:02.360 one of the things

00:51:03.080 the psychoanalysts

00:51:04.000 pointed out

00:51:04.480 is some of those

00:51:05.060 can be

00:51:06.120 id-like

00:51:06.720 so imagine

00:51:07.880 for example

00:51:08.400 that you're angry

00:51:09.060 at someone

00:51:09.640 and so

00:51:10.520 you allow yourself

00:51:11.920 to notice

00:51:13.140 the fantasies

00:51:14.000 that you're generating

00:51:14.900 as a consequence

00:51:15.580 of the anger

00:51:16.280 right

00:51:16.800 and you'll see

00:51:17.300 maybe you have

00:51:17.780 a very violent

00:51:18.500 fantasy

00:51:19.100 and something

00:51:20.660 that's highly

00:51:21.160 aggressive

00:51:21.660 well you're being

00:51:22.600 informed that

00:51:23.500 part of your

00:51:24.440 category system

00:51:25.380 has that

00:51:26.220 vengefulness

00:51:26.920 say as a goal

00:51:28.060 and that actually

00:51:29.200 might be

00:51:29.740 relevant in some

00:51:31.100 sense if you

00:51:31.740 could figure out

00:51:32.260 how to integrate

00:51:33.000 that id-related

00:51:34.080 goal to a higher

00:51:34.980 set of principles

00:51:35.720 right

00:51:36.020 you don't want

00:51:36.900 to produce

00:51:37.980 absolute bloody

00:51:38.840 mayhem

00:51:39.200 because that

00:51:39.680 doesn't iterate

00:51:40.360 well across

00:51:41.100 instances

00:51:41.620 but that doesn't

00:51:42.920 mean you should

00:51:43.440 ignore the input

00:51:45.000 of these subsidiary

00:51:46.060 systems

00:51:46.680 exactly

00:51:47.500 so you

00:51:49.780 introduced

00:51:50.180 the very

00:51:51.080 so when you're

00:51:52.120 variation

00:51:53.020 differentiation

00:51:53.800 right

00:51:54.540 and then

00:51:54.980 but differentiation

00:51:55.860 that has the

00:51:56.520 potential to

00:51:57.100 reconverge

00:51:58.140 that's right

00:51:58.840 and so you get

00:52:00.380 a system

00:52:00.940 simultaneously

00:52:01.640 differentiating

00:52:02.620 and integrating

00:52:03.360 it becomes

00:52:03.900 what Kelso

00:52:04.400 and others

00:52:04.740 call

00:52:05.200 metastable

00:52:06.160 the system

00:52:06.660 is complexifying

00:52:07.660 it can do

00:52:08.500 a greater variety

00:52:09.760 of things

00:52:10.240 while remaining

00:52:11.060 integrated as an

00:52:12.080 agent

00:52:12.380 it doesn't

00:52:12.800 yeah right

00:52:13.240 right

00:52:13.520 right

00:52:13.820 right

00:52:14.140 right

00:52:14.380 and so what

00:52:14.960 you want

00:52:15.660 that's what

00:52:16.580 happens by the

00:52:17.320 way in the

00:52:17.820 Chartres Cathedral

00:52:18.480 when you wander

00:52:19.120 the maze

00:52:19.660 so that's the

00:52:20.620 symbolic representation

00:52:21.560 there right

00:52:22.200 so the idea

00:52:22.840 is you go

00:52:23.520 into the maze

00:52:24.420 in one section

00:52:25.340 and then you walk

00:52:26.460 all four quadrants

00:52:27.680 of the world

00:52:28.380 right

00:52:28.640 so you have to

00:52:29.060 cover all the

00:52:29.820 territory

00:52:30.260 and that way

00:52:31.040 you get to the

00:52:31.580 center

00:52:31.860 and so the idea

00:52:33.040 there is

00:52:33.700 maximum

00:52:34.660 differentiation

00:52:35.340 as a consequence

00:52:36.320 of voluntary

00:52:37.180 experience

00:52:38.000 that pushes

00:52:39.060 together towards

00:52:39.940 a unity

00:52:40.440 exactly

00:52:41.340 and so

00:52:41.840 what you get

00:52:43.420 is a system

00:52:45.240 that is

00:52:45.540 complexifying

00:52:46.440 and if it's

00:52:46.900 done right

00:52:47.580 it's

00:52:48.340 because of this

00:52:49.360 real adaptive

00:52:50.100 fittedness

00:52:50.800 its

00:52:51.540 complexification

00:52:52.260 is increasingly

00:52:53.400 conforming

00:52:54.320 to the

00:52:54.700 complexity

00:52:55.180 of the

00:52:55.580 world

00:52:55.840 yeah

00:52:56.080 right

00:52:56.320 that's the

00:52:57.260 scientific

00:52:57.600 enterprise

00:52:58.160 in some

00:52:58.560 sense

00:52:58.900 right

00:52:59.160 that's

00:52:59.480 that's

00:52:59.720 that calibration

00:53:00.260 against

00:53:00.820 real world

00:53:01.680 patterns

00:53:02.120 good synoptic

00:53:02.840 integration

00:53:03.380 and not

00:53:04.060 just

00:53:04.700 differentiation

00:53:05.820 over innovation

00:53:07.020 for your

00:53:07.460 career

00:53:07.840 yes

00:53:08.460 right

00:53:08.720 yes

00:53:09.040 yes

00:53:09.340 yes

00:53:09.620 yes

00:53:09.840 there is

00:53:10.220 that

00:53:10.500 okay

00:53:11.540 so

00:53:12.020 that's

00:53:12.680 self-organizing

00:53:13.200 criticality

00:53:13.780 now here's

00:53:14.200 the thing

00:53:14.680 self-organize

00:53:15.600 when a system

00:53:16.220 is

00:53:16.440 let's

00:53:16.880 I'll use

00:53:17.320 the

00:53:17.460 Hebb's

00:53:17.980 firing

00:53:18.320 wiring

00:53:18.680 distinction

00:53:19.180 when it

00:53:19.860 fires

00:53:20.500 in self-organizing

00:53:22.000 criticality

00:53:22.600 it tends

00:53:23.020 to create

00:53:23.600 a small

00:53:24.180 world

00:53:24.440 network

00:53:24.860 wiring

00:53:25.340 because

00:53:26.040 it's

00:53:26.280 mostly

00:53:26.740 it's

00:53:27.420 organized

00:53:27.840 right

00:53:28.840 and when

00:53:29.740 it's

00:53:29.880 organized

00:53:30.260 that

00:53:30.480 orders

00:53:30.800 it

00:53:30.940 but when

00:53:31.200 it

00:53:31.360 breaks

00:53:31.820 apart

00:53:32.180 that

00:53:32.460 opens

00:53:32.780 up the

00:53:33.060 possibility

00:53:33.520 of one

00:53:33.820 of these

00:53:34.020 long distance

00:53:34.540 connections

00:53:35.080 now if a

00:53:36.280 system starts

00:53:36.960 to wire

00:53:37.740 as a

00:53:38.800 small world

00:53:39.200 network

00:53:39.500 what's

00:53:39.760 mostly

00:53:40.020 regular

00:53:40.380 connections

00:53:40.840 keeping you

00:53:41.340 in the

00:53:41.740 norm

00:53:42.040 but it

00:53:42.540 has a few

00:53:43.020 long distance

00:53:43.820 connections

00:53:44.240 that can

00:53:44.640 suddenly

00:53:44.880 snap you

00:53:45.720 out

00:53:46.560 that's

00:53:47.040 like the

00:53:47.300 balance

00:53:47.560 between

00:53:47.900 conservatism

00:53:48.600 and

00:53:48.740 liberalism

00:53:49.260 there

00:53:49.520 it is

00:53:50.700 and so

00:53:51.760 if it

00:53:53.140 fires

00:53:53.540 as a

00:53:53.860 small

00:53:54.100 world

00:53:54.440 it

00:53:54.720 fires

00:53:55.140 as

00:53:55.360 self-organizing

00:53:55.920 criticality

00:53:56.460 it tends

00:53:57.040 to wire

00:53:57.680 as a

00:53:58.000 small world

00:53:58.380 network

00:53:58.820 and if it

00:53:59.580 wires

00:53:59.940 as a

00:54:00.240 small world

00:54:00.620 network

00:54:00.960 it tends

00:54:01.380 to fire

00:54:01.960 as self-organizing

00:54:02.760 criticality

00:54:03.380 so these

00:54:04.000 two things

00:54:04.780 can actually

00:54:05.820 mutually

00:54:06.280 inform

00:54:06.880 each other

00:54:07.880 and so

00:54:08.620 if you can

00:54:09.300 get it

00:54:09.620 right

00:54:10.160 you can

00:54:11.020 be

00:54:11.360 right

00:54:11.740 you can

00:54:12.200 be

00:54:12.400 organizing

00:54:12.880 your brain

00:54:13.460 so that

00:54:14.060 you make

00:54:14.500 it more

00:54:14.880 capable

00:54:15.240 of this

00:54:15.900 evolving

00:54:16.880 of framing

00:54:17.460 and as

00:54:18.100 you get

00:54:18.320 better

00:54:18.580 at doing

00:54:18.960 that

00:54:19.320 that will

00:54:19.740 tend to

00:54:20.140 reinforce

00:54:20.720 you

00:54:21.120 organizing

00:54:21.680 your brain

00:54:22.060 so there's

00:54:22.700 a real

00:54:22.940 possibility

00:54:23.400 here

00:54:23.980 for people

00:54:24.860 to do

00:54:25.300 that

00:54:25.600 right

00:54:26.020 to get

00:54:26.400 that

00:54:26.740 sort of

00:54:28.560 reciprocal

00:54:29.400 opening

00:54:29.960 of a

00:54:30.540 virtuous

00:54:30.880 cycle

00:54:31.420 going on

00:54:31.840 and it's

00:54:32.420 interesting

00:54:32.720 that we

00:54:33.020 have

00:54:33.220 that

00:54:34.420 self-organizing

00:54:35.240 criticality

00:54:35.900 theory

00:54:36.180 of insight

00:54:36.700 so insight

00:54:37.880 is

00:54:38.180 you

00:54:38.720 have to

00:54:40.660 break

00:54:40.960 out

00:54:41.320 of

00:54:41.740 an

00:54:41.980 inappropriate

00:54:42.380 frame

00:54:42.860 that's

00:54:43.440 the

00:54:43.600 criticality

00:54:44.180 and it

00:54:44.480 reorganizes

00:54:45.400 into the

00:54:45.860 better

00:54:46.040 you do

00:54:46.680 that

00:54:46.860 evolution

00:54:47.380 and better

00:54:49.740 would be

00:54:50.140 something like

00:54:50.880 both efficient

00:54:52.320 and capable

00:54:52.920 of performing

00:54:53.460 a broader

00:54:53.860 range of

00:54:54.300 actions

00:54:54.640 that was

00:54:55.180 like a

00:54:55.520 Piagetian

00:54:56.140 description

00:54:56.660 of what

00:54:57.140 constituted

00:54:57.780 a better

00:54:58.120 theory

00:54:58.520 a better

00:54:59.140 theory

00:54:59.520 allows you

00:55:00.080 to do

00:55:00.360 everything

00:55:00.820 the previous

00:55:01.400 theory

00:55:01.700 allowed

00:55:02.000 you to

00:55:02.240 do

00:55:02.460 plus

00:55:03.260 something

00:55:03.740 more

00:55:04.160 hopefully

00:55:04.840 with a

00:55:05.300 gain

00:55:05.580 of

00:55:05.720 efficiency

00:55:06.260 and that's

00:55:07.000 a definition

00:55:07.560 of better

00:55:08.180 so a good

00:55:10.600 theory

00:55:11.080 is efficient

00:55:13.480 in that

00:55:13.940 sense

00:55:14.240 but a good

00:55:14.660 theory

00:55:14.880 is also

00:55:15.220 generative

00:55:15.700 so you're

00:55:16.660 always trying

00:55:17.140 to optimize

00:55:17.620 between

00:55:18.080 efficiency

00:55:18.800 and

00:55:19.120 evolvability

00:55:19.760 and so

00:55:21.200 like you

00:55:21.680 said

00:55:21.860 you don't

00:55:22.860 just do

00:55:23.540 compression

00:55:24.140 that's

00:55:24.880 epilepsy

00:55:25.180 if your

00:55:25.660 brain

00:55:25.820 just fires

00:55:26.380 in a

00:55:26.640 completely

00:55:27.140 synchronous

00:55:27.640 thing

00:55:28.120 that's

00:55:28.680 epilepsy

00:55:29.060 right

00:55:29.520 because you

00:55:30.340 just locked

00:55:31.000 the system

00:55:31.460 down

00:55:31.680 it has

00:55:31.960 no

00:55:32.420 capacity

00:55:33.060 to

00:55:33.660 adaptively

00:55:34.200 refit

00:55:34.600 itself

00:55:34.860 to the

00:55:35.080 world

00:55:35.180 so the

00:55:35.620 brain

00:55:35.800 is constantly

00:55:36.520 I think

00:55:37.340 of this

00:55:37.600 actually

00:55:37.900 as mapping

00:55:38.360 on to

00:55:39.720 Piaget's

00:55:40.360 notion of

00:55:40.960 assimilation

00:55:41.400 accommodation

00:55:41.800 assimilation

00:55:42.820 is compression

00:55:43.460 making everything

00:55:44.240 integrated

00:55:44.800 accommodation

00:55:45.520 as I introduce

00:55:46.380 and then

00:55:47.140 the calibration

00:55:47.980 is this

00:55:48.640 dynamical

00:55:49.480 constantly trading

00:55:50.940 between them

00:55:51.620 so you don't

00:55:52.760 come to any

00:55:53.300 kind of

00:55:53.720 stable thing

00:55:54.740 you're constantly

00:55:55.980 evolved

00:55:56.700 and the theory

00:55:57.560 you don't find

00:55:58.220 the final theory

00:55:58.900 right

00:55:59.360 you're constantly

00:56:00.060 moving to a theory

00:56:01.020 that grabs

00:56:01.980 more differences

00:56:02.600 and yet brings

00:56:03.600 them into

00:56:03.960 an integration

00:56:04.680 and then

00:56:05.400 the theory

00:56:05.700 has to

00:56:06.020 one of

00:56:06.640 Piaget's

00:56:07.180 points

00:56:07.580 in his

00:56:08.380 writing

00:56:08.720 and he said

00:56:09.280 this explicitly

00:56:09.960 was that

00:56:10.480 the task

00:56:11.540 of genetic

00:56:13.020 epistemology

00:56:13.800 was to

00:56:14.340 specify

00:56:14.900 the process

00:56:15.680 by which

00:56:16.360 the balance

00:56:16.920 between

00:56:17.240 assimilation

00:56:17.780 and accommodation

00:56:18.440 occurs

00:56:18.880 exactly

00:56:19.300 and that

00:56:20.060 has something

00:56:20.560 to do

00:56:20.900 with

00:56:21.120 okay

00:56:21.560 so two

00:56:22.000 questions

00:56:22.520 so we've

00:56:24.100 already

00:56:24.360 put forward

00:56:26.060 the hypothesis

00:56:26.740 that the

00:56:27.420 instinct

00:56:27.820 for meaning

00:56:28.340 is something

00:56:28.940 like a

00:56:29.400 marker

00:56:29.700 for the

00:56:30.160 proper

00:56:30.580 expansion

00:56:32.120 and organization

00:56:32.820 of the

00:56:34.100 category

00:56:34.620 system

00:56:35.040 of the

00:56:35.300 brain

00:56:35.500 itself

00:56:35.880 maybe

00:56:36.220 even

00:56:36.660 related

00:56:37.060 to

00:56:37.300 health

00:56:37.640 but then

00:56:38.300 there's

00:56:38.880 another

00:56:39.080 interesting

00:56:39.540 thing

00:56:39.840 that

00:56:40.140 Carhart Harris

00:56:41.140 and people

00:56:41.900 like him

00:56:42.280 have been

00:56:42.560 concentrating

00:56:43.060 on

00:56:43.360 which is

00:56:43.700 that the

00:56:44.060 phenomenon

00:56:44.520 of consciousness

00:56:45.400 itself

00:56:46.320 which is

00:56:47.320 being itself

00:56:48.200 in some real

00:56:48.760 sense

00:56:49.140 in so far

00:56:49.760 as you have

00:56:50.520 to be

00:56:50.800 conscious

00:56:51.120 of things

00:56:51.720 for them

00:56:52.100 to be

00:56:52.600 is like

00:56:53.280 I still

00:56:53.740 don't

00:56:53.980 understand

00:56:54.540 how this

00:56:55.300 gets us

00:56:55.920 out of the

00:56:57.180 so-called

00:56:57.820 zombie

00:56:58.260 problem

00:56:58.740 it's like

00:56:59.120 why is it

00:57:00.140 that

00:57:00.360 consciousness

00:57:01.140 itself

00:57:02.160 and this

00:57:02.860 sense

00:57:03.180 of being

00:57:03.600 is associated

00:57:04.300 with operation

00:57:05.120 on this

00:57:05.540 meaningful edge

00:57:06.260 okay

00:57:06.520 and it's a

00:57:07.400 great question

00:57:08.180 to ask

00:57:08.760 right

00:57:09.380 because

00:57:09.820 I've already

00:57:10.340 said

00:57:10.620 there are

00:57:11.260 relationships

00:57:11.800 between

00:57:12.200 small world

00:57:12.660 network

00:57:12.940 formation

00:57:13.440 and

00:57:14.020 how conscious

00:57:14.960 you are

00:57:15.400 and there's

00:57:16.020 also

00:57:16.240 relationships

00:57:16.740 between

00:57:17.060 self-organizing

00:57:17.780 criticality

00:57:18.480 so you

00:57:19.280 can get

00:57:19.640 you can

00:57:21.420 present people

00:57:22.420 to visual

00:57:22.940 stimuli

00:57:23.360 that are

00:57:24.080 put on

00:57:24.600 the visual

00:57:24.860 system

00:57:25.180 so the

00:57:25.480 brain is

00:57:25.800 constantly

00:57:26.100 flipping

00:57:26.500 between

00:57:26.840 them

00:57:27.040 like a

00:57:27.300 triangle

00:57:27.580 square

00:57:27.980 and what

00:57:28.620 you can

00:57:28.880 see is

00:57:29.880 self-organizing

00:57:30.480 criticality

00:57:31.080 moving

00:57:31.360 between

00:57:31.880 areas

00:57:32.720 as the

00:57:33.440 brain is

00:57:33.760 flipping

00:57:34.100 in

00:57:34.360 consciousness

00:57:34.800 between

00:57:35.240 the triangle

00:57:35.920 and the

00:57:36.560 square

00:57:36.840 right

00:57:37.200 so two

00:57:37.540 different

00:57:37.860 patterns

00:57:38.220 of perception

00:57:38.840 each associated

00:57:39.740 with their

00:57:40.120 independent

00:57:40.540 consciousness

00:57:41.120 okay

00:57:41.480 so here's

00:57:42.520 like

00:57:43.340 I've been

00:57:44.120 alluding to

00:57:44.880 that I think

00:57:45.600 a lot of

00:57:46.160 this stuff

00:57:46.580 is how

00:57:47.360 we're

00:57:47.560 implementing

00:57:48.040 if I can

00:57:48.500 put one

00:57:48.940 more piece

00:57:49.440 on this

00:57:49.760 I can get

00:57:50.160 to your

00:57:50.380 consciousness

00:57:50.780 okay

00:57:51.180 let's go

00:57:51.720 back

00:57:52.000 that's worth

00:57:52.600 it then

00:57:52.940 I'm willing

00:57:53.560 to wait

00:57:54.020 around for

00:57:54.440 that

00:57:54.640 so

00:57:54.900 you're

00:57:55.800 trying to

00:57:56.060 do

00:57:56.320 you're

00:57:57.980 predictive

00:57:58.460 processing

00:57:58.980 and

00:57:59.540 they pick

00:58:01.320 up on

00:58:01.880 Hinton's

00:58:02.720 insight

00:58:03.140 and then

00:58:03.500 Friston

00:58:03.740 has it

00:58:04.080 too

00:58:04.220 the brain

00:58:04.540 doesn't

00:58:04.760 try and

00:58:05.040 predict

00:58:05.360 the world

00:58:06.060 it tries

00:58:06.400 to predict

00:58:06.980 itself

00:58:07.560 in its

00:58:08.160 interaction

00:58:08.640 with the

00:58:08.980 world

00:58:09.140 which is

00:58:09.480 this really

00:58:10.280 really profound

00:58:10.960 idea

00:58:11.460 right

00:58:11.980 and prediction

00:58:13.440 this is why

00:58:13.840 I say

00:58:14.080 a better term

00:58:14.780 is anticipation

00:58:15.320 it's not

00:58:15.700 just predicting

00:58:16.180 it's attempting

00:58:16.660 to complete

00:58:17.380 so right

00:58:18.560 it's trying

00:58:19.080 to predict

00:58:19.440 it's also

00:58:19.900 something

00:58:20.380 by the way

00:58:20.880 that's

00:58:21.340 the problem

00:58:21.980 I've always

00:58:22.380 had with

00:58:22.720 the prediction

00:58:23.180 models

00:58:23.580 is there's

00:58:24.020 a cold

00:58:24.500 cognitive

00:58:25.020 element

00:58:25.420 to it

00:58:25.740 because we

00:58:26.180 really want

00:58:26.800 we really

00:58:27.800 want to

00:58:28.160 have

00:58:28.400 happen

00:58:28.740 in the

00:58:29.000 world

00:58:29.160 what we

00:58:29.540 desire

00:58:30.100 so it's

00:58:30.920 not just

00:58:31.280 cold

00:58:31.640 prediction

00:58:32.180 right

00:58:32.660 and this

00:58:33.320 is a

00:58:33.920 slogan

00:58:34.880 I've been

00:58:35.400 putting

00:58:35.920 relevance

00:58:36.760 realization

00:58:37.200 is not

00:58:37.640 cold

00:58:38.040 calculation

00:58:38.700 right

00:58:39.080 okay

00:58:39.420 okay

00:58:39.760 I didn't

00:58:40.120 know you

00:58:40.460 had

00:58:40.600 formulated

00:58:41.080 that

00:58:41.420 yes

00:58:41.500 so

00:58:42.220 so

00:58:43.080 predictive

00:58:45.200 processing

00:58:45.740 you're doing

00:58:46.100 all this

00:58:46.380 stuff

00:58:46.580 but the

00:58:47.060 question

00:58:47.380 and you've

00:58:48.380 bumped into

00:58:48.800 it already

00:58:49.140 is well

00:58:49.420 what do I

00:58:49.740 predict

00:58:50.080 right

00:58:50.840 and you

00:58:51.360 can't do

00:58:51.800 you can't

00:58:52.260 do initially

00:58:52.880 teleological

00:58:53.520 answers

00:58:53.960 because they

00:58:54.320 pursue

00:58:54.740 they

00:58:55.060 presume

00:58:55.940 right

00:58:56.520 that you've

00:58:56.840 got some

00:58:57.180 capacity to

00:58:57.820 represent the

00:58:58.360 environment

00:58:58.760 so you

00:58:59.780 have to

00:59:00.340 there's a

00:59:01.460 long argument

00:59:01.900 here I'll

00:59:02.260 just I'll

00:59:02.660 just sort

00:59:03.100 of deke

00:59:03.460 around it

00:59:03.880 what you

00:59:04.980 have to

00:59:05.480 do is

00:59:05.940 you have

00:59:06.300 to have

00:59:06.640 the system

00:59:07.840 has to have

00:59:08.360 an internal

00:59:08.880 way of

00:59:10.060 deciding

00:59:10.540 which

00:59:11.520 which

00:59:12.880 error

00:59:13.600 signals

00:59:14.240 and generative

00:59:15.320 models it's

00:59:15.980 going to

00:59:16.180 prioritize

00:59:16.620 right

00:59:17.300 yes

00:59:17.640 yes

00:59:17.960 it certainly

00:59:18.380 needs that

00:59:18.920 yes

00:59:19.180 so that's

00:59:19.760 called

00:59:19.920 precision

00:59:20.340 weighting

00:59:20.760 within

00:59:21.120 predictive

00:59:21.500 and their

00:59:22.600 theory of

00:59:23.440 precision

00:59:23.880 weighting is

00:59:24.380 explicitly that

00:59:25.360 that is what

00:59:26.060 selective

00:59:26.520 attention is

00:59:27.380 and this maps

00:59:28.100 onto the

00:59:28.620 models of

00:59:29.620 a lot of

00:59:30.020 people like

00:59:30.280 Watson and

00:59:30.740 others that

00:59:31.120 what attention

00:59:31.620 is it's this

00:59:33.560 really nested

00:59:34.580 dynamical

00:59:35.200 prioritization

00:59:36.120 thing and

00:59:36.600 it's constant

00:59:37.120 it gives you

00:59:37.760 this flowing

00:59:38.480 salience

00:59:39.080 landscape

00:59:39.580 right that's

00:59:40.180 what attention

00:59:40.640 is doing

00:59:41.700 okay so

00:59:42.500 where the

00:59:44.180 two where

00:59:44.820 in the paper

00:59:45.900 that Brett

00:59:46.940 and Mark

00:59:47.500 and I

00:59:47.700 published is

00:59:48.600 you got

00:59:48.920 predictive

00:59:49.780 processing

00:59:50.340 comes down

00:59:51.080 to the

00:59:51.740 centrality

00:59:52.600 of this

00:59:54.040 precision

00:59:55.200 weighting

00:59:55.580 and then

00:59:55.840 you get

00:59:56.120 Clark in

00:59:56.960 2017 saying

00:59:58.080 well that's

00:59:58.440 task relevance

00:59:59.140 and then

00:59:59.920 oh then

01:00:00.780 we're back

01:00:01.100 to the

01:00:01.320 relevance

01:00:01.520 but what's

01:00:02.780 happening is

01:00:03.580 the convergence

01:00:04.600 is relevance

01:00:05.080 realization says

01:00:05.840 you know

01:00:06.300 what you're

01:00:06.980 actually doing

01:00:07.740 is you're

01:00:08.240 doing something

01:00:08.680 like this

01:00:10.280 evolution

01:00:11.320 and what

01:00:11.840 evolution

01:00:12.400 that cognitive

01:00:13.300 evolution is

01:00:13.960 doing is

01:00:14.380 it's finding

01:00:14.800 these important

01:00:15.460 trade-off

01:00:15.940 relationships

01:00:16.480 between

01:00:17.180 efficiency

01:00:17.760 and

01:00:18.100 evolvability

01:00:18.760 between

01:00:19.360 exploiting the

01:00:20.260 here now

01:00:20.840 and exploring

01:00:21.680 the there then

01:00:22.460 between being

01:00:23.300 at the level

01:00:23.880 of the features

01:00:24.620 zooming in

01:00:26.360 and being at

01:00:26.900 the level

01:00:27.440 of the gestalt

01:00:28.360 between looking

01:00:29.480 out into the

01:00:30.220 world and

01:00:30.700 stepping back

01:00:31.480 and looking

01:00:31.800 and so there's

01:00:32.460 all so you can

01:00:33.080 think about each

01:00:33.660 one of these

01:00:34.040 as a domain

01:00:34.860 of opponent

01:00:35.420 processing

01:00:36.000 like in your

01:00:37.640 autonomic nervous

01:00:39.120 system

01:00:39.380 and there's

01:00:43.260 meta

01:00:43.520 opponent

01:00:43.860 processing

01:00:44.360 all of the

01:00:44.880 opponent

01:00:45.120 processes

01:00:45.660 are also

01:00:46.320 pulling in

01:00:46.900 and so you

01:00:47.640 get this

01:00:47.960 multi-dimensional

01:00:48.760 state space

01:00:50.000 that

01:00:50.160 here

01:00:50.840 that's like

01:00:51.440 a hierarchy

01:00:51.980 of dialogues

01:00:52.740 yes

01:00:53.100 yes

01:00:53.420 yes

01:00:53.740 and they're

01:00:54.020 all intersecting

01:00:54.940 and so

01:00:55.660 the idea

01:00:56.440 was that

01:00:57.220 that

01:00:57.940 is

01:00:58.640 primarily

01:00:59.260 what's

01:00:59.700 coming out

01:01:00.420 in the

01:01:01.080 predictive

01:01:01.360 like that's

01:01:02.280 how

01:01:02.820 so you know

01:01:03.700 precision weighting

01:01:04.880 is working

01:01:05.240 it's basically

01:01:05.800 doing this

01:01:06.960 multi-dimensional

01:01:08.100 opponent

01:01:08.820 processing

01:01:09.460 this multi-dimensional

01:01:11.120 complexification

01:01:12.120 this multi-dimensional

01:01:13.560 evolution

01:01:14.180 of your

01:01:14.500 adaptive fit

01:01:15.020 and then the

01:01:15.380 two models

01:01:15.780 come together

01:01:16.340 and they

01:01:17.020 fit together

01:01:17.580 and it's like

01:01:18.160 it's like the

01:01:18.920 marriage between

01:01:19.640 Darwinian

01:01:20.840 natural selection

01:01:21.920 and Mendelian

01:01:22.760 genetics

01:01:23.220 the two theories

01:01:24.160 dovetail

01:01:25.220 and come together

01:01:26.780 and they converge

01:01:27.840 on a solution

01:01:28.660 to the frame

01:01:29.200 problem

01:01:29.600 okay so

01:01:30.740 and then

01:01:31.940 I'll be able

01:01:32.420 to use that

01:01:32.780 to talk about

01:01:33.180 consciousness

01:01:33.520 okay well

01:01:34.000 I wanted to

01:01:34.840 just make a

01:01:35.420 segue here

01:01:35.960 that people

01:01:36.380 might find

01:01:36.820 interesting

01:01:37.300 I think all

01:01:38.480 that's modeled

01:01:39.140 extremely well

01:01:40.060 particularly by

01:01:40.820 symphonic music

01:01:42.040 because what you

01:01:42.900 have if you

01:01:43.860 listen to

01:01:44.460 symphonic music

01:01:46.660 what you see

01:01:47.200 is there's

01:01:47.660 dialogues at

01:01:48.360 the level

01:01:48.700 of the

01:01:48.980 instrument

01:01:49.400 right so

01:01:50.160 there'd be a

01:01:50.520 proposition

01:01:50.920 and then a

01:01:51.480 counter response

01:01:52.240 and then all

01:01:53.120 those dialogues

01:01:53.720 are structured

01:01:54.340 hierarchically

01:01:55.180 in relationship

01:01:55.860 to a higher

01:01:56.680 order structure

01:01:57.580 and that's

01:01:58.100 the melodic

01:01:58.960 integrity

01:01:59.320 of the entire

01:01:59.980 piece

01:02:00.320 and people

01:02:00.960 will align

01:02:01.560 themselves

01:02:02.020 with that

01:02:02.500 right

01:02:02.760 and so

01:02:03.360 you can see

01:02:03.800 this multi-dimensional

01:02:04.940 processing

01:02:05.780 occurring

01:02:06.340 in a musical

01:02:07.280 piece

01:02:07.760 that speaks

01:02:08.800 to the core

01:02:09.880 issue of reality

01:02:10.700 which is actually

01:02:11.560 the harmony

01:02:12.380 and the beauty

01:02:12.980 of the piece

01:02:13.820 itself

01:02:14.340 and so

01:02:15.280 and that means

01:02:16.540 that that deep

01:02:17.280 meaning that you're

01:02:18.100 describing is

01:02:18.780 pointing to

01:02:19.280 something like

01:02:19.780 the optimized

01:02:20.440 balance between

01:02:21.460 multiple levels

01:02:22.300 of processing

01:02:22.920 simultaneously

01:02:23.560 and some of

01:02:24.660 that is also

01:02:25.180 temporal

01:02:25.680 right balancing

01:02:26.640 the here and

01:02:27.140 now as you

01:02:27.820 said with the

01:02:28.360 what did you

01:02:28.820 call it

01:02:29.120 that they're there

01:02:29.640 they're there

01:02:30.240 and then

01:02:30.580 right

01:02:30.900 right

01:02:31.220 and so

01:02:31.760 the reality

01:02:32.540 is the

01:02:33.000 emergent

01:02:33.420 balance

01:02:33.980 between all

01:02:34.640 those different

01:02:35.160 viewpoints

01:02:35.680 rather than

01:02:36.180 any given

01:02:36.640 viewpoint

01:02:37.020 and it flows

01:02:37.680 right

01:02:38.920 like

01:02:39.500 so think

01:02:40.360 this is perfect

01:02:41.480 because you know

01:02:43.860 music is basically

01:02:45.080 playing with our

01:02:45.940 salience landscaping

01:02:46.980 for the sake

01:02:47.580 of playing

01:02:48.060 it's completely

01:02:48.760 it's for me

01:02:50.440 it's the being mode

01:02:51.720 it's not the having mode

01:02:52.440 we're not trying

01:02:53.080 to do anything

01:02:53.660 we're in pure

01:02:54.760 development

01:02:55.660 because we're

01:02:56.200 doing pure

01:02:56.800 play

01:02:57.120 we play

01:02:57.600 pure play

01:02:58.380 pure play

01:02:59.320 music is the

01:03:00.460 closest

01:03:00.780 what Rex Murphy

01:03:01.680 said

01:03:01.980 all music

01:03:02.740 all art

01:03:03.820 aspires to the

01:03:04.560 condition of music

01:03:05.340 right

01:03:05.600 and notice how

01:03:06.220 music is not

01:03:07.240 in you

01:03:07.660 it's between

01:03:09.320 it's fundamental

01:03:10.240 the resonance

01:03:11.300 the betweenness

01:03:12.440 the connectedness

01:03:13.380 the fitting

01:03:14.180 you see that

01:03:14.480 in dancing

01:03:15.000 right

01:03:15.460 and then

01:03:15.840 Rusin

01:03:16.280 John Rusin

01:03:17.140 in bearing

01:03:18.740 witness to

01:03:19.200 epiphany

01:03:19.620 and I got to

01:03:20.080 talk to

01:03:20.360 John Rusin

01:03:20.840 he said

01:03:21.940 and this is

01:03:22.560 so

01:03:22.920 and he admits

01:03:23.540 it

01:03:23.660 because he's

01:03:23.940 deeply influenced

01:03:24.540 by player

01:03:24.900 this is such

01:03:25.480 a platonic

01:03:26.020 thing

01:03:26.660 think about

01:03:27.940 how intelligibility

01:03:29.080 is basically

01:03:30.020 there's a musicality

01:03:31.700 to intelligibility

01:03:33.100 right

01:03:33.180 so there are

01:03:34.920 rhythms

01:03:35.680 right

01:03:36.660 and then there's

01:03:37.380 melodies

01:03:37.780 everything has

01:03:38.680 its through line

01:03:39.580 which is like

01:03:40.060 a melody

01:03:40.600 and then the

01:03:41.440 melodies

01:03:41.800 and the rhythm

01:03:42.540 go together

01:03:43.140 with an

01:03:43.580 overarching harmony

01:03:44.780 and you're getting

01:03:45.660 all of this

01:03:46.340 salient

01:03:46.760 and so music

01:03:49.180 and that's all

01:03:50.560 pointing to something

01:03:51.360 like an ultimate

01:03:52.400 unity

01:03:52.880 in some fundamental

01:03:53.740 sense

01:03:54.000 one

01:03:54.240 in neoplatonism

01:03:55.180 right

01:03:55.560 right

01:03:55.920 and I want to

01:03:56.580 talk to you

01:03:56.960 about that

01:03:57.360 one idea

01:03:58.000 too

01:03:58.220 so we'll get

01:03:58.960 into that

01:03:59.280 a little bit

01:03:59.620 later

01:03:59.920 but to return

01:04:00.780 to consciousness

01:04:01.420 yes

01:04:02.040 okay

01:04:02.340 so

01:04:03.020 and consciousness

01:04:04.660 is closely

01:04:05.180 associated

01:04:05.740 with

01:04:06.220 of course

01:04:07.760 with attention

01:04:08.300 with working

01:04:09.140 memory

01:04:09.600 and with

01:04:10.380 fluid

01:04:10.980 intelligence

01:04:12.120 yes

01:04:12.480 yes

01:04:12.700 right

01:04:13.060 and of course

01:04:15.260 there's

01:04:16.220 quite high

01:04:18.000 levels of

01:04:18.760 correlation

01:04:19.180 between working

01:04:19.840 memory

01:04:20.220 and standard

01:04:21.220 measures

01:04:21.540 of G

01:04:21.960 yes

01:04:22.500 they might

01:04:22.880 be the

01:04:23.160 same

01:04:23.360 thing

01:04:23.700 even

01:04:24.020 maybe

01:04:24.540 maybe

01:04:24.860 maybe

01:04:25.260 or

01:04:25.760 very close

01:04:26.460 they're close

01:04:27.140 yes

01:04:27.480 so here's the idea

01:04:30.060 and I'm going to do

01:04:31.520 that plausibility argument

01:04:32.820 so if you take a look

01:04:34.140 at many

01:04:34.500 so there's two different

01:04:35.540 well there's three

01:04:36.400 questions

01:04:36.680 I did this at the

01:04:37.720 there's three questions

01:04:38.540 about consciousness

01:04:39.100 okay

01:04:39.480 one is

01:04:40.080 what's the nature

01:04:41.020 of consciousness

01:04:41.460 how does this weird

01:04:42.240 non-physical

01:04:43.060 thing exist

01:04:44.440 in the physical universe

01:04:45.540 that's the

01:04:45.940 right

01:04:46.820 there's

01:04:47.240 but there's

01:04:48.320 the function

01:04:48.760 problem

01:04:49.060 what does

01:04:49.360 consciousness

01:04:49.700 do

01:04:50.000 since you

01:04:50.740 can do

01:04:51.140 so much

01:04:51.820 behavior

01:04:52.300 as an

01:04:53.100 intelligent

01:04:53.540 zombie

01:04:53.960 right

01:04:54.660 why not

01:04:55.460 all of it

01:04:55.900 yeah

01:04:56.080 why not

01:04:56.320 all of it

01:04:56.560 yeah

01:04:56.640 absolutely

01:04:57.120 okay

01:04:57.380 because you do

01:04:58.300 well

01:04:58.620 your

01:04:59.020 cerebellum

01:04:59.960 is a good

01:05:00.220 example

01:05:00.580 of that

01:05:00.800 right

01:05:00.920 I think

01:05:01.140 there's

01:05:01.300 more neurons

01:05:01.840 in the

01:05:02.120 cerebellum

01:05:02.540 than in the

01:05:02.960 cortex

01:05:03.240 and it's

01:05:04.240 not conscious

01:05:05.240 by any

01:05:05.800 normal

01:05:07.240 measures

01:05:07.700 so it's

01:05:08.120 like

01:05:08.360 obviously

01:05:09.140 consciousness

01:05:09.660 isn't a

01:05:10.260 mere

01:05:10.580 consequence

01:05:11.460 of neural

01:05:12.000 activity

01:05:12.500 no

01:05:12.840 no

01:05:13.100 so much

01:05:13.680 of that

01:05:13.940 is unconscious

01:05:14.480 and then

01:05:15.100 it does beg

01:05:16.820 it is unconscious

01:05:17.480 why not

01:05:18.200 all of it

01:05:18.780 right

01:05:19.140 and then the

01:05:20.240 third question

01:05:20.700 is a meta

01:05:21.080 question

01:05:21.320 what's the

01:05:21.600 relationship

01:05:21.920 between the

01:05:22.360 nature

01:05:22.580 and the

01:05:22.780 function

01:05:23.020 question

01:05:23.460 here's where

01:05:25.160 I actually

01:05:25.560 agree with

01:05:25.980 Descartes

01:05:26.340 I disagree

01:05:26.740 with a lot

01:05:27.180 of current

01:05:27.560 philosophy

01:05:28.100 Descartes

01:05:29.660 tries to

01:05:30.300 answer those

01:05:31.460 two questions

01:05:31.960 in an

01:05:32.260 integrated

01:05:32.560 fashion

01:05:32.960 the nature

01:05:33.380 question

01:05:33.720 and the

01:05:33.940 function

01:05:34.200 question

01:05:34.520 should be

01:05:34.880 answered

01:05:35.240 together

01:05:36.040 what we

01:05:37.520 tend to do

01:05:37.980 in modern

01:05:38.360 academic

01:05:38.780 philosophy

01:05:39.240 as we

01:05:39.760 tend to

01:05:40.060 separate

01:05:40.380 them

01:05:40.640 we talk

01:05:42.060 about just

01:05:42.360 the function

01:05:42.720 problem

01:05:43.040 or just

01:05:43.440 the heart

01:05:43.860 problem

01:05:44.200 which is

01:05:45.080 the nature

01:05:45.400 problem

01:05:45.800 and that

01:05:47.220 if you just

01:05:47.860 think about

01:05:48.160 it for a

01:05:48.460 minute

01:05:48.560 that's very

01:05:49.000 problematic

01:05:49.400 trying to

01:05:49.860 talk about

01:05:50.180 function

01:05:50.620 without talking

01:05:51.060 about nature

01:05:51.580 is very

01:05:52.660 very problematic

01:05:53.340 and vice

01:05:54.240 versa

01:05:54.480 trying to

01:05:54.840 talk about

01:05:55.120 the nature

01:05:55.480 of something

01:05:55.880 without talking

01:05:56.340 about how

01:05:56.560 it functions

01:05:57.080 with respect

01:05:57.860 to other

01:05:58.180 things

01:05:58.480 very very

01:05:59.000 problematic

01:05:59.460 there's a

01:06:00.560 longer

01:06:00.760 argument

01:06:01.120 there I'm

01:06:01.360 just giving

01:06:01.660 you the

01:06:01.940 gist

01:06:02.200 you want

01:06:02.700 to

01:06:02.800 so

01:06:03.500 but if

01:06:04.400 you take

01:06:04.680 a look

01:06:05.160 right

01:06:05.500 if you take

01:06:05.940 a look

01:06:06.140 at some

01:06:06.420 of the

01:06:06.680 leading

01:06:07.180 theories

01:06:07.780 let's

01:06:09.240 take the

01:06:09.860 global

01:06:10.100 workspace

01:06:10.500 theory

01:06:10.940 for example

01:06:11.600 and what's

01:06:12.860 the

01:06:13.020 function of

01:06:14.960 consciousness

01:06:15.380 in the

01:06:15.720 global way

01:06:16.140 so the

01:06:16.640 idea is

01:06:17.040 your

01:06:17.160 consciousness

01:06:17.460 is something

01:06:17.860 like your

01:06:18.220 computer

01:06:18.500 desktop

01:06:18.920 and your

01:06:19.640 unconscious

01:06:19.980 has all

01:06:20.320 the files

01:06:20.780 and what

01:06:21.100 consciousness

01:06:21.500 is I can

01:06:22.660 bring anything

01:06:23.460 onto the

01:06:24.120 desktop

01:06:24.480 and I can

01:06:25.000 manipulate it

01:06:25.620 and then I can

01:06:26.020 broadcast it

01:06:26.700 back to

01:06:27.120 whatever I need

01:06:27.760 right

01:06:28.280 and you can

01:06:28.800 you update

01:06:29.760 your unconscious

01:06:30.360 doing that

01:06:30.960 too

01:06:31.180 right

01:06:31.400 because part

01:06:31.960 of what

01:06:32.220 consciousness

01:06:32.640 does seem

01:06:33.300 to do

01:06:33.680 is to

01:06:34.540 assess

01:06:35.380 faulty

01:06:36.340 unconscious

01:06:37.160 actions

01:06:38.000 recalibrate

01:06:39.240 them

01:06:39.440 and rejig

01:06:40.000 them

01:06:40.200 so

01:06:40.460 consciousness

01:06:41.140 is this

01:06:41.660 thing

01:06:41.840 that moves

01:06:42.240 up and

01:06:42.540 down

01:06:42.700 the

01:06:42.860 hierarchy

01:06:43.360 of

01:06:43.580 unconscious

01:06:44.000 and regulates

01:06:44.900 it

01:06:45.100 right

01:06:45.380 but here's

01:06:45.960 the thing

01:06:46.560 and this

01:06:46.940 of course

01:06:47.240 is the

01:06:47.440 frame

01:06:47.600 problem

01:06:47.860 you can't

01:06:48.740 check

01:06:49.060 all of

01:06:49.600 the

01:06:49.700 possible

01:06:50.100 error

01:06:50.280 right

01:06:50.560 that's

01:06:51.460 definitely

01:06:51.740 a problem

01:06:52.220 so

01:06:52.440 and this

01:06:53.120 is

01:06:53.300 I'm not

01:06:53.820 imposing

01:06:54.280 this

01:06:54.640 on

01:06:55.060 Bars

01:06:55.580 Shanahan

01:06:55.960 and Bars

01:06:56.520 right

01:06:57.260 and Bars

01:06:59.260 has explicitly

01:06:59.960 argued

01:07:00.360 Shanahan

01:07:00.780 has gone

01:07:01.220 and Shanahan

01:07:01.800 is important

01:07:02.180 because Shanahan

01:07:02.620 is literally

01:07:03.420 the person

01:07:03.900 who like

01:07:04.340 you know

01:07:05.140 writes the

01:07:05.800 Stanford

01:07:06.100 encyclopedia

01:07:06.660 article

01:07:07.100 on the

01:07:07.620 frame

01:07:07.820 problem

01:07:08.200 right

01:07:08.780 and so

01:07:09.840 they argue

01:07:10.800 that one

01:07:11.240 of the

01:07:11.540 functions

01:07:11.980 of consciousness

01:07:12.600 is to

01:07:13.220 help solve

01:07:13.940 the issue

01:07:14.440 of relevance

01:07:14.940 realization

01:07:15.540 the problem

01:07:16.160 of relevance

01:07:16.620 now I don't

01:07:18.140 think their

01:07:18.460 solution works

01:07:19.200 but that's

01:07:19.760 not the

01:07:20.660 issue

01:07:20.920 they're saying

01:07:21.900 look the

01:07:22.220 function of

01:07:22.720 consciousness

01:07:23.180 is to

01:07:23.840 do enhanced

01:07:24.720 relevance

01:07:25.140 realization

01:07:25.780 then you

01:07:26.520 look at

01:07:26.800 the work

01:07:27.120 of

01:07:27.260 Bohr

01:07:27.520 and Seth

01:07:27.940 and they

01:07:28.240 say

01:07:28.380 well what's

01:07:28.760 the function

01:07:29.100 of consciousness

01:07:29.560 the function

01:07:30.040 of consciousness

01:07:30.580 is like

01:07:31.500 think about

01:07:32.060 the relationship

01:07:32.560 to working

01:07:33.000 memory

01:07:33.260 it's to

01:07:33.660 reorganize

01:07:35.360 and restructure

01:07:36.140 like chunking

01:07:37.560 so we can

01:07:37.960 right

01:07:38.440 but then

01:07:40.520 and why

01:07:41.820 when do we need

01:07:42.620 that

01:07:42.740 well we need

01:07:43.220 it in situations

01:07:44.020 compare when you

01:07:45.320 can drive your car

01:07:46.140 like a zombie

01:07:46.760 and when you

01:07:47.320 can't drive your car

01:07:48.060 like a zombie

01:07:48.540 right

01:07:49.080 when I need

01:07:50.980 consciousness

01:07:51.500 when something

01:07:52.160 axiomatic

01:07:52.740 has moved

01:07:53.340 well

01:07:53.780 yeah

01:07:54.180 yes

01:07:55.060 and it

01:07:55.960 caches out

01:07:56.460 in this

01:07:56.760 way

01:07:57.060 the problem

01:07:57.660 I'm facing

01:07:58.120 is now

01:07:58.440 ill-defined

01:07:58.980 rather than

01:07:59.640 a well-defined

01:08:00.260 problem for me

01:08:00.900 the problem

01:08:01.460 is messy

01:08:02.020 there's sudden

01:08:03.120 that's a

01:08:03.720 path length

01:08:04.220 multiplication

01:08:04.800 problem

01:08:05.140 yes

01:08:05.420 and

01:08:06.460 right

01:08:07.180 there's

01:08:08.540 novelty

01:08:09.060 there is now

01:08:10.300 stuff that I

01:08:10.880 was previously

01:08:11.480 able to discard

01:08:12.620 as irrelevant

01:08:13.660 error

01:08:14.060 that I can't

01:08:15.200 discard as

01:08:15.820 irrelevant error

01:08:16.500 anymore

01:08:16.820 and that would

01:08:18.140 be associated

01:08:18.700 with the fact

01:08:19.220 that you'd have

01:08:19.680 an automatized

01:08:20.420 solution to

01:08:21.240 whatever set of

01:08:21.900 problems was

01:08:22.360 making themselves

01:08:23.020 manifest

01:08:23.400 that's right

01:08:24.180 you don't have

01:08:24.740 to attend to

01:08:25.360 it because

01:08:25.740 you've already

01:08:26.640 taken it into

01:08:27.340 account

01:08:27.660 even your

01:08:28.080 perceptions

01:08:28.520 have taken

01:08:29.020 it into

01:08:29.400 account

01:08:29.700 and allow

01:08:30.120 a lot of

01:08:30.600 little regular

01:08:31.180 networks

01:08:31.780 to run it

01:08:33.060 yes

01:08:33.600 right

01:08:34.040 but now I get

01:08:34.900 into this

01:08:35.260 situation

01:08:35.660 and I need

01:08:36.940 to go into

01:08:37.840 right

01:08:38.800 a small world

01:08:39.960 network

01:08:40.360 I need to

01:08:40.840 have the

01:08:41.160 system

01:08:41.480 I need to

01:08:41.940 evolve

01:08:42.580 and enhance

01:08:43.580 my relevance

01:08:44.440 that's why you

01:08:45.440 get a flash

01:08:46.100 of consciousness

01:08:46.600 when you have

01:08:47.240 insight

01:08:47.620 you actually

01:08:48.080 get that

01:08:48.940 and so

01:08:49.460 you get that

01:08:50.180 or when

01:08:50.700 something goes

01:08:51.220 wrong

01:08:51.620 it's like

01:08:52.420 uh oh

01:08:52.900 that's

01:08:53.340 consciousness

01:08:53.860 who wants

01:08:54.860 that

01:08:55.240 okay so

01:08:56.420 there's a longer

01:08:58.260 argument here

01:08:58.760 but you can

01:08:59.080 take a look

01:08:59.580 at you know

01:09:00.460 Clearman's

01:09:01.160 radical plasticity

01:09:02.060 hypothesis

01:09:02.580 Tononi's

01:09:03.520 integrated information

01:09:04.180 basically they all

01:09:05.460 converge on

01:09:06.300 what consciousness

01:09:07.440 is doing

01:09:08.180 is its higher

01:09:09.220 order relevance

01:09:09.900 realization

01:09:10.420 which of course

01:09:11.020 is what working

01:09:11.560 memory is doing

01:09:12.260 like the stuff

01:09:13.620 that our colleague

01:09:14.700 Lynn Hasher

01:09:15.320 was talking about

01:09:16.260 it's not just

01:09:17.420 Miller's

01:09:17.880 holding space

01:09:19.040 because that doesn't

01:09:20.220 really account for

01:09:20.820 why chunking

01:09:21.540 is so important

01:09:22.300 no no

01:09:22.860 it's functional

01:09:23.860 it's sort of

01:09:26.260 the last ditch

01:09:27.240 survey of

01:09:29.420 how good is my

01:09:30.160 relevance realization

01:09:31.000 before I commit

01:09:32.000 to action in the

01:09:33.180 world

01:09:33.520 right

01:09:34.080 I think salience

01:09:35.260 is actually just

01:09:35.940 relevance to your

01:09:36.640 working memory

01:09:37.340 in that fashion

01:09:38.620 so

01:09:39.300 the functionality

01:09:41.500 okay so

01:09:42.560 let's say that

01:09:44.140 there's a growing

01:09:44.880 convergence

01:09:45.400 remember plausibility

01:09:46.360 from many different

01:09:47.140 people onto

01:09:47.980 the function of

01:09:49.120 consciousness

01:09:49.540 is higher order

01:09:50.520 recursive

01:09:51.200 relevance realization

01:09:52.440 your unconscious

01:09:53.920 has done some

01:09:54.520 preliminary relevance

01:09:55.360 realization

01:09:55.860 and then you do

01:09:56.460 the yes

01:09:57.040 but this is

01:09:57.520 the demanding

01:09:58.040 and you ratchet up

01:10:00.060 the relevance

01:10:00.480 realization

01:10:00.920 is that plausible

01:10:02.480 okay

01:10:03.160 now if you give me

01:10:04.220 that

01:10:04.700 right

01:10:05.700 I can start to

01:10:06.780 talk a lot

01:10:07.260 about the

01:10:07.620 phenomenology

01:10:08.580 of consciousness

01:10:09.940 beyond the

01:10:10.560 functionality

01:10:11.060 but I need to

01:10:12.280 make a distinction

01:10:12.980 I need to make

01:10:14.000 an important

01:10:14.480 distinction

01:10:14.960 that has not

01:10:15.860 been

01:10:16.180 well I would

01:10:18.740 argue hasn't

01:10:19.180 been made very

01:10:19.920 well and therefore

01:10:20.520 there's a deep

01:10:21.060 equivocation and

01:10:21.820 confat

01:10:22.320 you need to make

01:10:23.180 a distinction

01:10:23.620 between adjectival

01:10:24.840 qualia are the

01:10:25.840 felt experience

01:10:26.440 things

01:10:26.860 you need to make

01:10:27.900 a distinction

01:10:28.300 between the

01:10:28.860 adjectival qualia

01:10:30.060 and the

01:10:30.460 adverbial qualia

01:10:31.640 adjectival qualia

01:10:32.860 are greenness

01:10:33.840 blueness

01:10:34.780 you know

01:10:35.260 the ones that

01:10:36.320 philosophers love

01:10:36.880 to talk about

01:10:37.420 adverbial qualia

01:10:38.940 are things like

01:10:40.540 here-ness

01:10:41.440 now-ness

01:10:43.120 together-ness

01:10:44.920 now you say

01:10:46.200 well why would

01:10:46.780 I ever need that

01:10:47.500 okay so

01:10:48.220 politicians

01:10:49.360 why are those

01:10:49.940 adverbial

01:10:50.580 because they're

01:10:51.280 modifications of

01:10:52.460 how you are

01:10:53.020 connected to the

01:10:53.760 world

01:10:53.960 they are not

01:10:54.780 specific properties

01:10:56.000 okay so

01:10:56.440 does that

01:10:58.080 correspond to

01:10:58.900 a noun

01:10:59.720 that's a noun

01:11:00.320 verb distinction

01:11:01.100 in some sense

01:11:01.860 so it's

01:11:02.500 what things are

01:11:03.580 versus

01:11:04.240 what would you say

01:11:06.520 modification

01:11:07.060 qualities of

01:11:07.680 their function

01:11:08.220 how they could

01:11:09.340 co-emerge in

01:11:10.300 being and in

01:11:11.120 your consciousness

01:11:11.760 so

01:11:13.020 let's talk about

01:11:14.240 two pieces of

01:11:14.780 empirical evidence

01:11:15.440 that support what

01:11:16.060 I'm saying

01:11:16.320 I'm not just

01:11:16.680 drawing this as

01:11:17.320 speculation

01:11:17.640 one is

01:11:18.380 and I've been

01:11:19.880 in this state

01:11:20.580 and it's widely

01:11:21.980 reported

01:11:22.420 many different

01:11:23.340 people across

01:11:25.040 many different

01:11:25.660 variables

01:11:26.140 culturally

01:11:27.220 history

01:11:27.600 you can get into

01:11:28.600 what Foreman

01:11:29.380 calls the pure

01:11:29.980 consciousness event

01:11:30.860 so you're not

01:11:31.940 conscious of

01:11:32.740 anything

01:11:33.060 you're not even

01:11:33.500 conscious of

01:11:34.000 consciousness

01:11:34.360 you're just

01:11:34.780 purely conscious

01:11:35.740 it's

01:11:36.600 memory where we

01:11:37.380 talked about

01:11:37.680 you can step

01:11:38.160 back

01:11:38.480 you can step

01:11:39.640 back until

01:11:40.180 you can't

01:11:41.220 step back

01:11:41.580 any further

01:11:41.960 because you'd

01:11:42.300 be trying to

01:11:42.680 step back

01:11:43.260 in consciousness

01:11:44.200 into unconscious

01:11:45.120 consciousness

01:11:45.480 right

01:11:45.820 and when the

01:11:47.300 pure consciousness

01:11:47.780 event

01:11:48.100 there are

01:11:49.620 there is no

01:11:50.180 greenness

01:11:50.780 there is no

01:11:51.300 blueness

01:11:51.800 there is no

01:11:52.240 blackness

01:11:52.800 there are no

01:11:53.720 objects

01:11:54.240 there are no

01:11:54.620 things

01:11:55.100 but you don't

01:11:56.500 black out

01:11:57.080 what there is

01:11:59.340 is there's a

01:11:59.900 sense of

01:12:00.340 hereness

01:12:00.820 but it's pure

01:12:01.760 hereness

01:12:02.120 eternity

01:12:02.600 right

01:12:03.500 and presence

01:12:04.680 I should say

01:12:05.320 and nowness

01:12:06.500 is that

01:12:07.900 sense of

01:12:08.940 eternity

01:12:09.340 and then

01:12:10.500 everything is

01:12:11.380 one

01:12:11.660 unity

01:12:12.240 togetherness

01:12:12.940 so the

01:12:13.480 hereness

01:12:13.840 and the

01:12:14.080 nowness

01:12:14.420 and the

01:12:14.680 togetherness

01:12:15.280 don't go

01:12:16.460 away

01:12:16.800 even though

01:12:17.600 the adjectival

01:12:19.520 qualia do

01:12:20.140 which tells you

01:12:20.840 the adjectival

01:12:21.500 qualia are

01:12:22.600 not necessary

01:12:24.100 for consciousness

01:12:25.600 but the

01:12:26.200 adverbial ones

01:12:27.000 so do you

01:12:27.360 think of that

01:12:27.840 as an

01:12:28.100 experience

01:12:28.520 of something

01:12:29.040 akin to the

01:12:29.620 ground of

01:12:30.040 being

01:12:30.340 yes

01:12:30.740 because here

01:12:31.920 when you're

01:12:32.720 like when

01:12:33.660 you're doing

01:12:34.420 is that what

01:12:34.940 is that the

01:12:35.620 name of

01:12:36.060 is that the

01:12:37.160 name of God

01:12:37.980 that was

01:12:38.240 announced to

01:12:38.700 Moses

01:12:38.980 is that the

01:12:39.840 same idea

01:12:40.320 because

01:12:40.640 well the name

01:12:41.980 is I am

01:12:42.880 that I am

01:12:43.560 I was

01:12:44.300 that I am

01:12:44.960 I want to

01:12:45.680 try and answer

01:12:46.120 that and I

01:12:46.540 want to try

01:12:46.880 and so I

01:12:47.380 was at

01:12:48.000 I went to

01:12:49.820 I went to

01:12:53.600 the respond

01:12:54.200 retreat

01:12:54.660 and in

01:12:55.720 Vermont

01:12:56.100 and I was

01:12:56.980 giving my

01:12:57.340 talk on

01:12:57.720 relevance

01:12:57.980 realization

01:12:58.440 and I was

01:12:59.040 getting great

01:13:00.120 questions from

01:13:00.680 monks

01:13:01.000 and I was

01:13:01.560 actually

01:13:01.940 interacting with

01:13:02.760 other theorists

01:13:03.520 and I came to

01:13:04.780 what I think is

01:13:05.440 an important

01:13:05.820 insight

01:13:06.180 so your

01:13:07.400 system is doing

01:13:08.040 relevance

01:13:08.420 realization

01:13:09.060 and that is

01:13:10.900 giving you

01:13:11.560 the complexification

01:13:12.740 of the world

01:13:13.460 it's giving you

01:13:14.120 the world

01:13:14.740 of things

01:13:15.580 but as you

01:13:16.540 said

01:13:16.760 organized

01:13:17.540 so it's

01:13:18.980 giving you

01:13:19.380 this

01:13:19.640 but you can

01:13:20.520 come to

01:13:20.840 and one of

01:13:21.600 the things

01:13:21.860 relevance

01:13:22.200 realization

01:13:22.620 is interested

01:13:23.860 in

01:13:24.140 is relevance

01:13:24.660 realizing

01:13:25.020 that's what

01:13:25.500 an insight

01:13:25.900 is

01:13:26.160 you realize

01:13:27.080 oh my way

01:13:27.880 of realizing

01:13:28.500 what's relevant

01:13:29.020 was actually

01:13:29.780 wrong

01:13:30.520 I have to

01:13:31.000 restructure

01:13:31.600 so it's

01:13:32.640 intrinsically

01:13:33.140 because it's

01:13:33.700 intrinsically

01:13:34.280 evolving and

01:13:35.020 self-correcting

01:13:35.840 it is intrinsically

01:13:36.920 interested in

01:13:37.640 itself

01:13:38.020 okay

01:13:38.880 so I can do

01:13:40.100 relevance

01:13:40.440 realization

01:13:40.840 on the world

01:13:41.720 and that's

01:13:42.840 that is

01:13:43.940 relevance

01:13:44.360 realization

01:13:44.920 of beings

01:13:46.220 but relevance

01:13:48.340 realization

01:13:48.800 has to realize

01:13:49.700 its own

01:13:50.220 irrelevance

01:13:51.000 with respect

01:13:52.200 to

01:13:52.720 being

01:13:54.340 it has to

01:13:55.660 let

01:13:55.800 you have

01:13:56.180 to stop

01:13:56.740 trying to

01:13:57.780 thingify

01:13:58.280 your experience

01:13:59.680 that's movement

01:14:00.740 up Jacob's

01:14:01.400 okay so

01:14:01.800 in the Exodus

01:14:03.140 story

01:14:03.680 what happens

01:14:04.600 with Moses

01:14:05.080 is that

01:14:05.640 he's walking

01:14:06.600 through the desert

01:14:07.280 so he's confused

01:14:08.240 in some sense

01:14:09.000 and something

01:14:09.920 attracts his

01:14:10.520 attention

01:14:10.920 yes

01:14:11.320 right it's

01:14:11.800 the burning

01:14:12.160 bush

01:14:12.540 and it doesn't

01:14:13.360 like announce

01:14:14.280 itself in some

01:14:15.440 magnificent way

01:14:16.380 it glimmers

01:14:17.240 in the shadows

01:14:18.100 of his

01:14:18.580 perception

01:14:19.160 but then he

01:14:19.980 investigates it

01:14:20.840 so imagine

01:14:21.380 this imagine

01:14:22.080 that something

01:14:22.580 glimmers to

01:14:23.160 attract your

01:14:23.620 attention

01:14:23.880 that's mercury

01:14:24.940 by the way

01:14:25.540 yes yes

01:14:26.080 he's the wing

01:14:26.600 messenger of the

01:14:27.400 gods

01:14:27.660 Hermes yeah

01:14:28.580 trying to

01:14:29.040 attract your

01:14:29.520 attention

01:14:29.900 so now you

01:14:30.880 pursue that

01:14:31.800 and now you

01:14:32.800 pursue it

01:14:33.240 deeply

01:14:33.660 and the deeper

01:14:34.520 you pursue it

01:14:35.260 the farther

01:14:35.840 you get away

01:14:36.580 from the

01:14:37.000 particulars of

01:14:37.700 the phenomenon

01:14:38.260 itself

01:14:38.900 and the closer

01:14:39.820 you get to

01:14:40.360 something like

01:14:40.980 generalized

01:14:41.700 being

01:14:42.260 and that seems

01:14:43.100 to be the idea

01:14:43.980 that's implicit

01:14:44.580 in that story

01:14:45.260 of the burning

01:14:45.720 bush

01:14:46.020 and the

01:14:46.260 announcement

01:14:46.600 of the

01:14:46.880 name of

01:14:47.180 God

01:14:47.460 yes

01:14:47.800 but so what

01:14:48.400 happened

01:14:48.600 this is

01:14:49.020 you know

01:14:49.440 this is

01:14:49.760 from Gregory

01:14:50.300 of Nyssa

01:14:50.780 and his

01:14:51.980 work on

01:14:52.400 Moses going

01:14:52.960 up

01:14:53.300 right

01:14:53.860 at the

01:14:54.400 mountain

01:14:54.680 and all

01:14:56.100 the way

01:14:56.340 to Nicholas

01:14:56.860 of Cusa

01:14:57.380 right

01:14:57.740 the burning

01:14:58.440 bush is

01:14:58.900 inherently

01:14:59.400 paradoxical

01:15:00.980 right

01:15:01.240 yes

01:15:01.640 right

01:15:01.960 because it's

01:15:02.400 something that

01:15:03.660 is destroying

01:15:04.240 itself

01:15:04.640 but is

01:15:04.940 maintained

01:15:05.300 right

01:15:05.620 right

01:15:05.880 right

01:15:06.200 and so

01:15:06.800 it's

01:15:07.120 underneath

01:15:07.840 generation

01:15:10.260 and destruction

01:15:10.920 it's

01:15:11.380 underneath

01:15:11.840 all of the

01:15:12.860 mechanisms

01:15:13.340 by which

01:15:14.080 being is

01:15:14.840 particularized

01:15:15.820 it is

01:15:16.460 trying to

01:15:16.860 point

01:15:17.200 I am

01:15:17.720 that I

01:15:18.000 am

01:15:18.140 or actually

01:15:18.740 I will be

01:15:19.280 what I

01:15:19.560 will be

01:15:19.960 right

01:15:19.980 right

01:15:20.260 right

01:15:20.540 and so

01:15:21.160 it is

01:15:21.640 trying to

01:15:22.020 point

01:15:22.280 to the

01:15:22.740 ground

01:15:23.260 of being

01:15:24.020 as opposed

01:15:24.800 to the

01:15:25.060 world

01:15:25.200 and what

01:15:25.780 yeah

01:15:25.960 what

01:15:26.160 does

01:15:26.880 Moses

01:15:27.240 try and

01:15:27.720 comprehend

01:15:27.900 and it's

01:15:28.140 it's a paradox

01:15:28.580 as you

01:15:29.020 said

01:15:29.240 it's so

01:15:29.580 interesting

01:15:30.020 because a

01:15:30.580 paradox is

01:15:31.160 pointing the

01:15:31.540 way to

01:15:31.800 that

01:15:32.020 that sort

01:15:32.700 of you

01:15:33.260 you talked

01:15:33.820 I think

01:15:34.100 in your

01:15:34.340 lecture

01:15:34.620 at Ralston

01:15:35.180 about the

01:15:35.660 idea that

01:15:36.140 the parables

01:15:36.620 in the

01:15:37.100 New Testament

01:15:37.800 are basically

01:15:38.600 zen cones

01:15:39.360 right

01:15:39.620 they're paradoxes

01:15:40.840 that are designed

01:15:41.400 to produce a

01:15:42.040 state of

01:15:42.400 insight

01:15:42.840 and that's

01:15:43.680 the grip

01:15:44.180 of imagination

01:15:45.000 by relevance

01:15:45.860 realization

01:15:46.320 and a pointer

01:15:47.100 to something

01:15:47.620 that's beyond

01:15:48.320 at the same

01:15:48.820 time

01:15:49.120 exactly

01:15:49.220 you get

01:15:50.000 gripped

01:15:50.500 by the paradox

01:15:52.120 and does

01:15:52.720 Moses try to

01:15:53.880 comprehend it

01:15:54.500 no he takes

01:15:55.160 off his shoes

01:15:55.920 and he goes

01:15:56.460 into reverence

01:15:57.420 right

01:15:57.860 that's why

01:15:59.400 he takes

01:15:59.720 off his

01:16:00.100 shoes

01:16:00.360 because now

01:16:01.120 he knows

01:16:01.440 he's standing

01:16:01.940 on holy

01:16:02.400 ground

01:16:02.780 and so

01:16:03.220 the attempt

01:16:03.720 to name

01:16:04.500 is abandoned

01:16:06.060 even

01:16:06.460 that doesn't

01:16:07.140 mean you

01:16:07.400 stop naming

01:16:08.100 it's ridiculous

01:16:09.040 yeah well that

01:16:09.680 would be the

01:16:10.100 abandonment

01:16:10.660 of sanity

01:16:11.740 in some real sense

01:16:12.920 but there is

01:16:13.720 there's a moment

01:16:14.960 when the relevance

01:16:15.760 realization

01:16:16.640 right

01:16:17.400 can point

01:16:18.480 to its own

01:16:19.400 irrelevance

01:16:20.060 when you are

01:16:20.700 trying to not

01:16:21.840 grip anything

01:16:23.360 yeah

01:16:23.940 you're trying

01:16:24.840 to be opened

01:16:25.680 to the ground

01:16:26.400 of everything

01:16:27.100 right

01:16:27.440 so that's

01:16:28.520 how I would

01:16:28.840 answer

01:16:29.080 and the utility

01:16:29.960 okay so now

01:16:30.960 the utility

01:16:31.600 of being open

01:16:32.580 to the ground

01:16:33.160 of everything

01:16:34.220 let me lay

01:16:35.200 this out

01:16:35.540 you tell me

01:16:35.920 what you think

01:16:36.280 about this

01:16:36.640 so you might

01:16:37.840 say well

01:16:38.320 does everything

01:16:40.460 have to converge

01:16:41.320 on one

01:16:42.020 that's the

01:16:42.640 monotheistic question

01:16:43.620 in some real sense

01:16:44.440 well let's say

01:16:45.520 forget that question

01:16:46.420 for a minute

01:16:46.720 let's look at

01:16:47.320 the alternative

01:16:47.920 things don't

01:16:49.260 converge

01:16:49.820 yes

01:16:50.160 okay so

01:16:50.700 what's this

01:16:51.680 psychological state

01:16:52.880 associated with

01:16:53.780 non-convergence

01:16:54.620 well there's two

01:16:55.600 if I have a multitude

01:16:57.340 of goals

01:16:58.080 and if they're a multitude

01:17:00.140 that means they conflict

01:17:01.700 because if they didn't

01:17:02.680 conflict they'd be a unity

01:17:03.780 so I have a multitude

01:17:04.740 of goals

01:17:05.240 okay so that's an

01:17:06.500 entropy problem

01:17:07.500 and I'm going to be

01:17:09.080 chaotic

01:17:09.640 confused

01:17:10.240 and anxious

01:17:10.780 as a consequence

01:17:11.540 so that's one consequence

01:17:13.220 and the second consequence

01:17:14.720 is

01:17:15.120 if positive emotion

01:17:16.920 is associated

01:17:18.200 with movement

01:17:18.820 towards a goal

01:17:19.680 but I have multiple

01:17:21.240 fractured goals

01:17:21.940 then the intensity

01:17:23.480 of my positive emotion

01:17:24.800 that's my enthusiasm

01:17:25.880 and that's possession

01:17:26.780 by God by the way

01:17:27.800 then my enthusiasm

01:17:28.860 is diminished

01:17:29.660 so the alternative

01:17:30.920 to the vision

01:17:31.780 of a monotheistic unity

01:17:33.220 is a chaotic

01:17:34.660 plurality

01:17:35.600 that's associated

01:17:36.480 with the decrement

01:17:37.320 in motivation

01:17:38.280 and enthusiasm

01:17:38.900 yes

01:17:39.320 now that doesn't

01:17:40.100 answer the question

01:17:41.160 of what that

01:17:42.080 ultimate unity

01:17:43.220 might be

01:17:44.080 right

01:17:44.420 but it does at least

01:17:45.480 point out the consequences

01:17:46.760 of not assuming

01:17:48.180 that such a thing exists

01:17:49.260 it's basically

01:17:49.900 you could call it

01:17:51.900 the psychopathology

01:17:52.940 of polytheism

01:17:54.180 it's something like that

01:17:55.320 and when that's

01:17:56.540 manifested socially

01:17:57.460 this is also

01:17:58.060 something interesting

01:17:58.820 if you and I

01:17:59.940 cannot agree

01:18:00.560 on a unity of vision

01:18:01.640 now in the moment

01:18:03.100 we're both exploring

01:18:05.140 and we agree on that

01:18:06.240 so we can sit here

01:18:07.300 without conflict

01:18:08.040 if we cannot agree

01:18:09.240 on a unity of vision

01:18:10.240 then we are in conflict

01:18:12.000 yes

01:18:12.340 those are the only options

01:18:13.420 so now we have this problem

01:18:14.920 there has to be a unity

01:18:15.960 or else

01:18:16.680 these are the consequences

01:18:17.660 and then the mystery is

01:18:19.080 well

01:18:19.300 what constitutes that

01:18:20.680 unity

01:18:21.060 yeah I totally agree

01:18:22.580 I mean

01:18:23.060 you see arguments

01:18:24.240 from Plotinus and Spinoza

01:18:25.460 basically doing that

01:18:27.000 that move

01:18:27.580 which is

01:18:28.460 I think

01:18:29.700 I mean

01:18:30.460 there are some things

01:18:31.260 you can say about the unity

01:18:32.300 it can't be at any level

01:18:34.100 below ultimate reality

01:18:35.320 right

01:18:35.580 right

01:18:35.800 it has to be

01:18:36.520 because

01:18:36.740 that's sort of the definition

01:18:37.820 of ultimate reality

01:18:38.680 yes exactly

01:18:39.400 exactly

01:18:39.760 and then you get

01:18:41.520 it's

01:18:42.140 so I could add to

01:18:43.520 the psychological

01:18:44.240 the epistemic

01:18:45.120 right

01:18:45.660 to understand something

01:18:46.860 and to grasp it

01:18:48.340 its reality

01:18:49.140 is

01:18:49.580 is an act

01:18:50.700 of integration

01:18:51.500 it's an

01:18:52.400 you know

01:18:53.240 yeah

01:18:53.580 right

01:18:53.960 and so

01:18:54.600 think about what science does

01:18:55.860 here's all these disparate phenomena

01:18:57.180 and I get

01:18:57.840 have a unifying understanding

01:18:59.420 and then here's two different theories

01:19:01.020 here's Darwinian natural selection

01:19:02.940 here's Mendelian genetics

01:19:04.080 and I get

01:19:05.060 I get modern evolutionary theory

01:19:07.480 the grand synthesis

01:19:08.520 right

01:19:08.860 and why

01:19:09.620 what

01:19:10.040 and why are scientists

01:19:10.940 trying to find

01:19:11.820 the ultimate

01:19:12.160 yeah and those are profound

01:19:13.320 syntheses

01:19:13.920 and they're profound

01:19:14.680 because they point to a deep

01:19:16.120 underlying unity

01:19:17.140 exactly

01:19:17.720 exactly

01:19:18.260 and this is the neoplatonic argument

01:19:19.640 and then

01:19:20.020 and then you add in

01:19:21.260 the argument I did at length

01:19:22.880 in Ralston

01:19:23.360 if reality isn't

01:19:25.100 or if that fundamental grammar

01:19:26.760 of intelligibility

01:19:27.720 doesn't conform

01:19:29.220 to a fundamental grammar

01:19:30.720 yes

01:19:31.600 right

01:19:31.940 right

01:19:32.220 we are doomed

01:19:33.220 we are doomed

01:19:34.400 to a radical solipsism

01:19:36.020 a radical

01:19:36.440 so it's not

01:19:37.500 you can't

01:19:38.100 I would argue

01:19:39.520 I would ask people

01:19:40.860 to look at the longer argument

01:19:42.000 at Ralston

01:19:42.440 but you can't take

01:19:43.720 the Kantian position

01:19:44.560 that yes

01:19:45.300 that is the grammar

01:19:46.080 of intelligibility

01:19:46.860 but reality

01:19:47.580 is somehow

01:19:48.040 fundamentally different

01:19:49.020 because

01:19:49.520 like just

01:19:50.740 like Clark's argument

01:19:52.020 different Clark

01:19:52.900 Samuel Clark

01:19:53.380 like Kant presupposes

01:19:55.220 the existence

01:19:55.680 of other minds

01:19:56.400 with an epistemology

01:19:57.280 that gives him

01:19:57.840 no way of acknowledging

01:19:59.060 the existence

01:20:00.000 of other minds

01:20:00.560 why is he writing

01:20:01.200 the damn critique

01:20:02.600 if he doesn't think

01:20:03.280 why is he upset

01:20:04.320 when he doesn't get

01:20:05.420 the reception

01:20:05.860 because he believes

01:20:06.860 that there are other minds

01:20:08.100 right

01:20:08.640 that

01:20:08.860 and they're

01:20:10.000 and they're real

01:20:10.820 and they're out there

01:20:11.720 and he somehow

01:20:12.640 has access to them

01:20:13.900 and they have

01:20:14.820 alternative frame

01:20:15.540 like

01:20:15.880 right

01:20:16.080 so his implicit

01:20:16.860 presuppositions

01:20:17.680 and his explicit

01:20:18.500 presuppositions

01:20:19.260 don't match

01:20:19.840 he's in a performative

01:20:20.600 contradiction

01:20:21.120 like Whitehead

01:20:21.620 talked to us

01:20:22.100 and so if you

01:20:23.080 and so the Neoplatonic

01:20:24.280 argument is

01:20:24.900 not the particulars

01:20:26.120 but the grammar

01:20:27.480 of intelligibility

01:20:28.400 and the grammar

01:20:29.100 of reality

01:20:29.720 have to ultimately

01:20:30.860 ultimately

01:20:31.420 so this is actually

01:20:32.700 really why I wanted

01:20:34.360 to talk to you today

01:20:35.300 so this issue here

01:20:37.080 so I did a lecture

01:20:37.940 for Ralston as well

01:20:39.400 at Ephesus

01:20:40.060 on the Greek idea

01:20:41.140 of the logos

01:20:41.640 yes

01:20:42.140 yes

01:20:42.460 so okay

01:20:42.900 so I want to

01:20:43.540 I want to

01:20:44.480 I want to ask you

01:20:45.800 some questions

01:20:46.340 about this

01:20:46.900 and I suppose

01:20:47.420 this has something

01:20:48.220 to do possibly

01:20:49.060 with Neoplatonism

01:20:50.180 and Buddhism

01:20:51.060 and Christianity

01:20:51.760 sure

01:20:52.320 okay so

01:20:53.080 let's

01:20:55.260 we'll open with

01:20:56.360 the question

01:20:56.740 about what might

01:20:57.420 constitute

01:20:57.880 this ultimate unity

01:20:59.160 now you can think

01:21:00.280 about it as a

01:21:01.000 phenomenological unity

01:21:02.400 in some sense

01:21:03.200 and put it in

01:21:04.020 the objective space

01:21:05.020 but I want to

01:21:06.140 make a different case

01:21:07.060 so I think

01:21:08.920 the ultimate unity

01:21:10.000 is better

01:21:10.960 conceptualized

01:21:11.880 as something

01:21:12.480 that you might

01:21:13.500 term a spirit

01:21:14.560 and we can get

01:21:15.540 into your discussion

01:21:16.220 yeah Jonathan

01:21:16.500 okay okay

01:21:18.020 so a spirit

01:21:19.440 is an animating

01:21:20.240 principle

01:21:20.620 or a set

01:21:21.400 of animating

01:21:21.980 principles

01:21:22.220 and a universal

01:21:23.460 spirit would be

01:21:24.480 the same set

01:21:26.040 of animating

01:21:26.620 principles

01:21:27.140 animating

01:21:27.800 a lot

01:21:28.600 of people

01:21:29.100 simultaneously

01:21:29.840 right

01:21:30.180 so

01:21:30.620 it's like a meme

01:21:31.980 in the Dawkins sense

01:21:33.520 right

01:21:33.720 it's like a hyper meme

01:21:34.780 and so

01:21:35.700 the question is

01:21:37.000 well why should you

01:21:38.180 conceptualize that

01:21:39.040 as a spirit

01:21:39.580 so let me

01:21:40.500 offer a proposition

01:21:41.800 about what's happening

01:21:42.580 in the biblical corpus

01:21:43.560 okay

01:21:44.000 so okay

01:21:44.600 so there's some

01:21:45.440 attempt

01:21:46.080 to specify

01:21:47.500 the implicit unity

01:21:48.760 and the way

01:21:49.760 the biblical corpus

01:21:50.660 does that

01:21:51.120 is by laying out

01:21:51.820 a sequence of narratives

01:21:52.780 and the narratives

01:21:54.080 stress a different

01:21:56.200 yes

01:21:56.600 ultimate unity

01:21:57.520 right

01:21:57.900 so for example

01:21:58.600 in the story of Noah

01:21:59.680 here's the unity

01:22:00.580 that's being pointed to

01:22:01.480 so you have Noah

01:22:02.160 characterized as someone

01:22:03.180 who's a wise man

01:22:04.720 for his time and place

01:22:06.220 which is all

01:22:06.900 any all of us

01:22:07.600 anything

01:22:08.020 all any of us

01:22:09.160 could hope for

01:22:09.740 yeah

01:22:10.100 now Noah has a

01:22:11.460 intuition

01:22:12.280 that the storms

01:22:13.520 are coming

01:22:14.000 and he has faith

01:22:15.720 in the intuition

01:22:16.340 and acts on it

01:22:17.160 and then God

01:22:18.220 is characterized

01:22:18.860 as the source

01:22:20.000 of the intuition

01:22:20.720 and faith

01:22:21.880 in Noah's case

01:22:22.640 is characterized

01:22:23.260 as the willingness

01:22:24.480 to abide by that

01:22:25.460 intuition

01:22:26.180 that's the story

01:22:27.560 against

01:22:28.340 all the people

01:22:29.360 that are criticizing

01:22:30.260 and against

01:22:30.800 all other things

01:22:31.560 that might occupy

01:22:32.220 his attention

01:22:32.800 he prioritizes that

01:22:34.080 yes

01:22:34.380 okay

01:22:34.800 so he met that

01:22:35.400 and that's how

01:22:35.820 he manifests faith in it

01:22:36.960 that's right

01:22:37.300 okay

01:22:37.480 so now

01:22:37.900 another story

01:22:38.920 bumps up against that

01:22:40.040 and the next story

01:22:41.380 is the Tower of Babel

01:22:42.360 and they're very

01:22:43.480 different narrative

01:22:44.200 and so what you have

01:22:45.080 here is this

01:22:45.740 and this is actually

01:22:47.160 related to this problem

01:22:48.160 of criticality

01:22:48.860 but we won't go into that

01:22:49.860 you have this proposition

01:22:51.380 that human beings

01:22:52.240 can build these

01:22:52.900 towers of abstraction

01:22:54.180 that can become

01:22:55.960 totalitarian

01:22:56.800 in their essence

01:22:57.420 right

01:22:57.800 and that God

01:22:58.780 punishes that

01:22:59.720 yeah

01:22:59.880 he fragments them

01:23:01.580 he fragments it

01:23:02.240 and makes people

01:23:02.900 confused

01:23:03.520 yeah

01:23:03.800 okay

01:23:04.060 so now

01:23:04.600 that's a very

01:23:05.140 different picture

01:23:06.080 of God

01:23:06.780 the Noah God

01:23:07.880 yeah

01:23:08.140 okay

01:23:08.520 but they're contiguous

01:23:09.440 yeah

01:23:09.800 they call that

01:23:10.420 metonymy

01:23:11.060 yeah

01:23:11.360 so there's

01:23:12.100 an implication

01:23:13.560 by juxtaposition

01:23:15.280 that there's an

01:23:16.120 identity

01:23:16.580 between those

01:23:17.220 two different things

01:23:17.820 but they're very

01:23:18.420 diverse

01:23:18.860 okay so then

01:23:19.540 I'll just do

01:23:20.020 two more of these

01:23:20.620 so then

01:23:21.200 you have the story

01:23:22.180 of Abraham

01:23:22.620 yeah

01:23:23.180 Abraham is a slow

01:23:24.860 starter

01:23:25.380 right

01:23:26.100 so he's very wealthy

01:23:27.160 his parents are wealthy

01:23:28.380 he lives a very privileged

01:23:30.040 and sheltered life

01:23:30.980 but a spirit

01:23:32.060 makes itself manifest

01:23:33.240 to him

01:23:34.020 and the spirit

01:23:34.940 is the call

01:23:35.520 to adventure

01:23:36.100 and so God

01:23:37.080 in the Abrahamic story

01:23:38.120 is the spirit

01:23:38.900 that calls

01:23:39.600 even the comfortable

01:23:40.560 out to the

01:23:41.340 catastrophic adventure

01:23:42.700 of their life

01:23:43.280 yeah

01:23:43.320 and that's juxtaposed

01:23:44.880 against these other

01:23:45.640 two spirits

01:23:46.300 then you have

01:23:47.740 let's say Moses

01:23:49.040 now you have

01:23:49.940 a different

01:23:50.340 characterization

01:23:51.240 of the ultimate unity

01:23:52.580 and the ultimate unity

01:23:53.640 in the story of Moses

01:23:54.600 is the unity

01:23:56.180 that announces itself

01:23:57.340 in the burning bush

01:23:58.620 but also the spirit

01:23:59.840 that punishes the tyrant

01:24:01.200 yeah

01:24:01.720 and that calls

01:24:02.860 the slaves

01:24:03.440 out of slavery

01:24:04.140 okay so now

01:24:05.700 the open future too

01:24:06.780 meaning

01:24:08.160 the gods of Egypt

01:24:09.760 are gods of location

01:24:10.960 and function

01:24:11.940 the god of Moses

01:24:13.600 and even

01:24:14.280 so this is a development

01:24:16.820 of the god of Abraham

01:24:17.700 the god of Moses

01:24:19.200 travels with people

01:24:20.580 through space and time

01:24:21.720 into an open future

01:24:23.120 that they

01:24:23.600 right

01:24:23.860 right

01:24:24.220 okay

01:24:24.820 and that's a

01:24:25.420 that's a reference

01:24:26.400 as far as I can tell

01:24:27.460 back to the opening

01:24:28.320 lines of Genesis

01:24:29.160 because God

01:24:30.340 characterizes himself

01:24:31.620 at the beginning

01:24:32.340 of the book of Genesis

01:24:33.880 I think

01:24:35.020 in terms that are

01:24:35.880 very much akin to

01:24:36.800 the terms we've been using

01:24:37.800 to describe consciousness

01:24:38.740 itself

01:24:39.280 because God

01:24:40.160 is the thing

01:24:40.780 that confronts

01:24:41.840 the pluripotential chaos

01:24:43.500 and that's really

01:24:44.760 if you look at what

01:24:45.940 what is

01:24:46.840 what's the word

01:24:47.380 teo

01:24:47.820 tohu

01:24:48.780 vabohu

01:24:49.340 that's really what it means

01:24:50.520 it means pluripotential chaos

01:24:52.220 it's something like that

01:24:53.100 he confronts that

01:24:54.260 pluripotential chaos

01:24:55.400 and

01:24:56.140 generates

01:24:57.740 habitable

01:24:58.640 the habitable order

01:24:59.620 that is good

01:25:00.240 out of it

01:25:00.740 and that's the image

01:25:02.240 of God in man

01:25:03.540 those are identified

01:25:04.480 as the same thing

01:25:05.300 and this is so crucial

01:25:06.620 because it also implies

01:25:07.880 so

01:25:08.840 one of the questions

01:25:10.060 my students used to

01:25:10.960 always ask me

01:25:11.640 is how do you know

01:25:12.580 that what you're teaching us

01:25:13.560 isn't just another ideology

01:25:15.020 because I was trying to teach

01:25:16.400 counter ideology

01:25:17.200 and that's a really good question

01:25:18.580 it's the question

01:25:19.780 right now

01:25:20.220 it is the question

01:25:21.120 but

01:25:21.540 imagine that you could have

01:25:24.140 a story

01:25:24.800 that concentrates

01:25:26.200 on the process

01:25:27.300 by which

01:25:28.080 functional stories

01:25:29.240 are generated

01:25:30.180 well this is what

01:25:31.060 I wanted to say to you

01:25:31.940 I think what you're getting

01:25:33.580 I mean

01:25:34.000 a spirit is something

01:25:35.800 like a multiply

01:25:36.440 realizable

01:25:37.240 like you know

01:25:38.240 generative function

01:25:38.960 what I mean by that

01:25:39.940 is

01:25:40.620 you're trying to find

01:25:41.880 the through line

01:25:42.580 each one of the

01:25:43.560 think about

01:25:44.240 remember I did

01:25:45.960 the multidimensional

01:25:46.620 opponent processing

01:25:47.400 each one of these narratives

01:25:48.380 is an opponent

01:25:49.180 processing

01:25:50.180 yeah it's Cain versus Abel

01:25:52.160 and there's this

01:25:53.060 but there's also

01:25:54.340 right

01:25:54.860 there's Egypt

01:25:55.380 versus the promised land

01:25:56.420 Egypt is

01:25:57.800 conflict

01:25:58.360 but

01:25:59.400 Egypt is

01:26:00.820 exploit the here now

01:26:02.380 or explore the there then

01:26:03.960 that we talked about

01:26:05.540 at the core of relevance

01:26:06.440 remember they talk about

01:26:07.480 the flesh pots of Egypt

01:26:08.540 but if we stay here

01:26:11.700 there's so much

01:26:12.880 we could just

01:26:13.460 exploit

01:26:14.040 but you're

01:26:14.640 right well that's what

01:26:15.360 the Israelites get

01:26:16.340 nostalgic about

01:26:18.440 when they're in the desert

01:26:19.200 too

01:26:19.440 their immediate needs

01:26:20.820 are no longer being gratified

01:26:22.100 and that causes them

01:26:23.460 to become faithless

01:26:24.340 and fractious

01:26:26.020 so what I'm suggesting

01:26:27.120 to you is

01:26:27.620 like I'll just use

01:26:28.580 the Exodus story

01:26:29.880 though

01:26:30.060 as one of

01:26:31.420 but all of them

01:26:32.400 I would argue

01:26:32.960 what myth is always doing

01:26:34.440 or often doing

01:26:35.660 and Levi-Strauss had sort of

01:26:36.900 a sense of this

01:26:37.460 with structuralism

01:26:38.260 but what it's doing

01:26:39.500 is it's pointing you

01:26:40.520 to opponent processing

01:26:41.720 and then you can think of

01:26:44.560 okay here's this myth

01:26:45.660 with this opponent processing

01:26:46.780 here's this myth

01:26:48.140 with this opponent processing

01:26:49.240 what's the through line

01:26:50.080 and then what I do

01:26:50.940 is I try to find

01:26:52.440 like what you're doing

01:26:53.840 what I was talking about earlier

01:26:54.900 you're trying to find

01:26:55.740 the multi-dimensional

01:26:56.820 like nexus

01:26:58.340 the through line

01:26:59.040 of the meta

01:26:59.760 the meta through line

01:27:01.100 yeah of all the opponent processing

01:27:02.620 you're trying to

01:27:03.200 you're trying to say

01:27:04.380 okay all of the relevance

01:27:05.780 realization

01:27:06.440 if I could do

01:27:07.580 all the trade-offs

01:27:08.560 this is Nicholas of Cusa

01:27:09.840 with his open sense

01:27:11.240 of infinity

01:27:11.780 in the ancient Greek world

01:27:13.460 infinity is a bad thing

01:27:15.140 it's chaos

01:27:15.980 but with Cusa

01:27:16.640 it opens up

01:27:17.820 into

01:27:18.160 and then the whole

01:27:19.000 neoplatonic tradition

01:27:19.880 into a positive thing

01:27:20.840 it's like

01:27:21.080 no no

01:27:21.600 if I could get

01:27:22.200 all of the

01:27:23.120 of all of the opposites

01:27:25.180 I would see

01:27:26.080 that in infinity

01:27:27.080 they all coincide

01:27:29.020 the coincidence

01:27:29.580 of the opposite

01:27:30.440 and that

01:27:32.760 would be

01:27:33.620 the culmination

01:27:34.900 not in

01:27:35.920 any entity

01:27:37.220 that would be

01:27:37.800 sort of the summation

01:27:38.640 of what our cognition

01:27:40.780 is about

01:27:41.720 it would be sort of

01:27:42.640 I would have found

01:27:43.620 the source

01:27:44.340 of intelligibility

01:27:45.320 because I would have

01:27:46.400 moved to the deepest

01:27:47.620 grammar

01:27:48.140 of cognition

01:27:49.360 which would get me

01:27:50.620 and that's the resolution

01:27:51.640 of all opposing

01:27:52.840 conflicts

01:27:53.400 in some sense

01:27:53.840 okay so here's

01:27:54.560 an interesting question

01:27:55.460 so I've been thinking

01:27:56.420 about this recently

01:27:57.320 so talking with Pajot

01:27:58.660 so there's this idea

01:28:00.340 in the story

01:28:03.120 of Adam and Eve

01:28:03.800 that suffering

01:28:04.880 doesn't descend

01:28:05.620 upon the world

01:28:06.340 until the sin

01:28:07.140 of Adam and Eve

01:28:07.800 and I've been trying

01:28:08.640 to take that apart

01:28:09.560 with Matthew Pajot

01:28:10.740 most particularly

01:28:11.560 and Pajot believes

01:28:13.240 that Matthew

01:28:14.240 believes that

01:28:15.020 the sin of Eve

01:28:16.140 and Adam

01:28:16.540 was something

01:28:17.380 like pride

01:28:18.100 and so Eve

01:28:19.220 hearkened to the voice

01:28:20.300 of the serpent

01:28:21.000 and the serpent

01:28:22.140 in some sense

01:28:23.060 is that which is poisonous

01:28:24.260 and the fruit

01:28:26.320 that it offers

01:28:27.080 is inedible

01:28:27.840 in its essence

01:28:28.680 and Eve's pride

01:28:30.020 is that she can even

01:28:31.640 speak for the poisonous

01:28:32.660 and inedible

01:28:33.380 and Adam's pride

01:28:34.600 is that he'll hearken

01:28:35.460 to the voice of Eve

01:28:36.400 and so

01:28:37.220 and so

01:28:37.840 and I like that idea

01:28:38.880 I like the idea

01:28:39.900 that pride comes

01:28:40.660 before a fall

01:28:41.420 and that we can bite off

01:28:42.620 more than we can chew

01:28:43.620 and that men's pride

01:28:45.560 what would you say

01:28:47.200 motivates them

01:28:48.260 to attempt

01:28:49.620 to appear bigger

01:28:50.440 than they are

01:28:51.000 in the eyes of women

01:28:51.840 and that women's pride

01:28:53.200 motivates them

01:28:54.160 to incorporate

01:28:54.960 under the guise

01:28:55.760 of compassion

01:28:56.420 more than they can eat

01:28:57.640 let's say

01:28:58.440 now there's a Christian idea

01:28:59.980 and a Jewish idea

01:29:01.380 as well

01:29:01.740 that suffering

01:29:03.040 doesn't descend

01:29:04.040 upon the world

01:29:04.920 until this sin

01:29:05.880 takes place

01:29:06.720 now so you can

01:29:07.920 imagine

01:29:08.400 imagine that you

01:29:09.420 followed the through line

01:29:10.820 of meaning

01:29:11.440 assiduously

01:29:12.560 and you were able

01:29:13.660 to bring the opposites

01:29:14.800 into coincidence

01:29:15.700 and you'd have to do that

01:29:17.700 with proper epistemic humility

01:29:19.540 of course

01:29:20.080 right

01:29:20.240 and openness

01:29:20.700 to possibility

01:29:21.520 the question

01:29:22.440 would be

01:29:23.220 in some sense

01:29:23.980 is

01:29:24.200 to what degree

01:29:25.220 do your moral errors

01:29:26.600 actually constitute

01:29:27.860 the suffering

01:29:28.420 to begin with

01:29:29.140 and then

01:29:29.560 to what degree

01:29:30.240 do you think

01:29:30.680 the suffering itself

01:29:31.520 could be ameliorated

01:29:32.720 and I mean

01:29:34.040 maybe

01:29:34.380 eliminated

01:29:36.000 in favor of something

01:29:37.180 like the spirit of play

01:29:38.240 if you followed

01:29:39.420 the through line

01:29:40.500 of meaning

01:29:41.140 religiously

01:29:42.500 right

01:29:43.900 I mean

01:29:44.300 and that's

01:29:45.080 because

01:29:45.400 I have this sympathy

01:29:47.300 to the idea

01:29:48.020 that

01:29:48.480 that

01:29:48.740 unbearable suffering

01:29:50.160 in some sense

01:29:50.800 is built into

01:29:51.580 the structure

01:29:52.100 of reality itself

01:29:52.960 right

01:29:53.180 because we're finite

01:29:53.860 and mortal creatures

01:29:54.820 that makes you

01:29:55.460 more of a Buddhist

01:29:56.080 well yes

01:29:56.820 well right

01:29:57.480 right

01:29:57.800 although you see

01:29:58.600 the same emphasis

01:29:59.740 in Judaism

01:30:00.380 right

01:30:00.800 with the tragic

01:30:01.420 sense of history

01:30:02.160 and of course

01:30:02.660 the fact that

01:30:03.480 the central figure

01:30:04.360 in Christianity

01:30:04.960 is crucified

01:30:05.740 in some sense

01:30:06.900 speaks to the same thing

01:30:08.000 but then

01:30:08.600 there is an open

01:30:09.580 question there

01:30:10.300 right

01:30:10.540 which is

01:30:11.060 well yes

01:30:11.960 suffering is

01:30:12.780 built into

01:30:13.700 finitude

01:30:14.320 but

01:30:15.300 it's clearly the case

01:30:16.620 that we

01:30:17.060 exaggerate

01:30:17.980 multiply it

01:30:18.820 by failing

01:30:19.880 to hit the mark

01:30:20.820 you know

01:30:21.160 I think we can

01:30:23.020 ameliorate it

01:30:23.800 I happen to think

01:30:25.220 that the very

01:30:25.740 processes

01:30:26.460 of relevance

01:30:27.160 realization

01:30:27.740 that make us

01:30:28.320 adaptive

01:30:28.800 make us

01:30:29.920 perennially susceptible

01:30:31.160 to self-deception

01:30:32.040 that's my interpretation

01:30:33.020 of the first

01:30:33.680 noble truth

01:30:34.200 of Buddhism

01:30:34.660 the very processes

01:30:36.140 like

01:30:37.200 just look at

01:30:38.800 the heuristic

01:30:39.960 and bias literature

01:30:40.860 it's double named

01:30:41.960 for a good reason

01:30:42.640 I can't do

01:30:43.840 I can't actually

01:30:45.180 calculate

01:30:45.720 formal probability

01:30:46.540 of events

01:30:47.100 it's combinatorially

01:30:48.000 explosive

01:30:48.400 so I have to use

01:30:49.440 the representative

01:30:50.060 heuristic

01:30:50.640 and the availability

01:30:51.320 heuristic

01:30:52.120 right

01:30:52.820 but

01:30:53.380 and there's

01:30:54.880 and the work

01:30:56.260 of

01:30:56.460 I'll be talking

01:30:57.900 about this

01:30:58.240 in the course

01:30:58.720 right

01:30:58.960 of GigaRands

01:30:59.680 or others

01:31:00.020 is in many

01:31:00.780 situations

01:31:01.280 that outperform

01:31:02.200 in real world

01:31:03.780 messy

01:31:04.180 ill-defined

01:31:04.660 situations

01:31:05.260 where there's

01:31:05.980 real uncertainty

01:31:06.600 not risk

01:31:07.340 we've confused

01:31:08.680 those two

01:31:08.980 risk is you can

01:31:09.780 assign a probability

01:31:10.580 right

01:31:10.880 but real uncertainty

01:31:12.560 these heuristics

01:31:13.700 actually do

01:31:14.480 really really well

01:31:15.540 but they do

01:31:16.700 make you

01:31:17.240 prone to mistake

01:31:18.620 you take your

01:31:19.560 loved one

01:31:19.980 to the airport

01:31:20.580 and you say

01:31:21.760 don't

01:31:22.160 you say all

01:31:22.600 these euphemisms

01:31:23.260 for don't die

01:31:24.000 like text me

01:31:24.860 when you're there

01:31:25.400 safe trip

01:31:26.100 because you can

01:31:27.100 easily imagine

01:31:27.940 a plane crashing

01:31:28.800 and when a plane

01:31:29.660 crashes

01:31:30.100 it's not a crash

01:31:30.900 it's a disaster

01:31:31.820 it's a tragedy

01:31:32.860 so the availability

01:31:33.620 and the representative

01:31:34.620 heuristics

01:31:35.120 are getting triggered

01:31:35.820 like mad

01:31:36.340 and then you get

01:31:37.220 back in your car

01:31:39.260 the North American

01:31:40.240 death machine

01:31:40.860 without giving it

01:31:41.560 a second thought

01:31:42.240 and that's an act

01:31:43.100 of self-deception

01:31:43.860 right

01:31:44.420 and it's a significant

01:31:45.300 you're not properly

01:31:46.620 calibrating

01:31:47.460 your level

01:31:48.220 of affect

01:31:48.740 and arousal

01:31:49.420 to the risks

01:31:50.800 you're facing

01:31:51.440 that's what I mean

01:31:52.840 when I think

01:31:53.260 the very things

01:31:53.920 that I can't

01:31:54.820 get rid of

01:31:55.520 the heuristics

01:31:56.100 because then I would

01:31:57.060 face combinatorial

01:31:58.080 explosion

01:31:58.560 if I try and do

01:31:59.560 the probability

01:32:00.080 calculations

01:32:00.780 but this is

01:32:02.220 the no free lunch

01:32:02.840 theorem

01:32:03.140 well that's

01:32:04.360 that's the

01:32:04.780 complicating factor

01:32:05.820 of how much

01:32:06.940 so you might say

01:32:08.080 well how much

01:32:08.560 of suffering

01:32:09.040 is due to

01:32:09.600 the intrinsic

01:32:10.080 nature of

01:32:10.720 finite finitude

01:32:12.020 that's right

01:32:12.480 how much

01:32:13.460 is due

01:32:13.800 to ignorance

01:32:14.500 and inevitable

01:32:16.780 blindness

01:32:17.280 and then how much

01:32:18.120 is due to

01:32:18.600 failure to hit

01:32:19.480 the mark

01:32:19.960 and wisdom

01:32:20.640 is about being

01:32:21.400 able to

01:32:21.740 differentiate those

01:32:22.840 and properly

01:32:23.540 calibrate your

01:32:24.240 efforts to that

01:32:24.980 differentiation

01:32:25.480 elaborate on that

01:32:27.560 so

01:32:27.860 so

01:32:28.440 Plato

01:32:29.980 Drew Hyland

01:32:30.960 finite

01:32:31.420 transcendence

01:32:32.180 Plato's whole

01:32:33.280 argument is

01:32:33.820 we are finite

01:32:34.380 transcendent

01:32:34.900 we are being

01:32:35.340 capable of

01:32:36.180 transcending

01:32:36.680 ourselves

01:32:37.000 but if we

01:32:37.760 only pay

01:32:38.320 attention to that

01:32:38.960 we fall prey

01:32:39.520 to hubris

01:32:40.180 right

01:32:40.940 right

01:32:41.180 if we

01:32:41.580 if we

01:32:42.480 only pay

01:32:43.100 attention to

01:32:43.640 our finitude

01:32:44.040 we fall prey

01:32:44.660 to tyranny

01:32:45.300 and servitude

01:32:46.340 right

01:32:46.940 we have to

01:32:47.340 keep the two

01:32:47.920 in ongoing

01:32:48.820 opponent processing

01:32:49.960 and that's

01:32:51.040 and what we want

01:32:52.100 what we keep

01:32:53.020 trying to do

01:32:53.700 is resolve it

01:32:54.540 into one of these

01:32:55.700 or the other

01:32:56.680 and we keep

01:32:57.280 going back

01:32:58.120 and forth

01:32:58.760 and Plato

01:32:59.520 is about

01:32:59.960 you know

01:33:00.600 you can't

01:33:01.500 resolve that

01:33:02.300 you have to

01:33:02.960 always hold

01:33:04.060 those two

01:33:05.380 together

01:33:06.380 right

01:33:06.680 so and that

01:33:07.260 means

01:33:07.620 you have to

01:33:08.480 you have to

01:33:08.960 properly realize

01:33:10.040 like

01:33:10.720 so there's

01:33:11.380 no solution

01:33:11.960 there's no

01:33:12.440 the solution

01:33:13.160 is participation

01:33:13.900 in the process

01:33:14.760 that continues

01:33:15.420 to generate

01:33:16.040 the solution

01:33:16.640 so let me

01:33:17.220 give you a

01:33:17.560 strong analogy

01:33:18.120 when we've

01:33:18.520 been evoked

01:33:18.820 is there a

01:33:19.260 final form

01:33:19.920 of life

01:33:20.380 in evolution

01:33:20.900 that makes

01:33:21.700 no sense

01:33:22.240 if you

01:33:22.520 understand

01:33:22.920 evolution

01:33:23.400 there isn't

01:33:24.200 a culminating

01:33:26.000 life form

01:33:26.600 that's not

01:33:27.420 that's not

01:33:27.960 the

01:33:28.100 that's not

01:33:28.620 there's no

01:33:29.320 intentionality

01:33:29.960 to evolution

01:33:30.420 but you know

01:33:30.780 I'm just

01:33:31.200 speaking that way

01:33:31.900 right

01:33:32.200 there's no

01:33:32.820 there's no

01:33:33.180 project of

01:33:33.860 ah

01:33:34.300 now

01:33:34.920 now we'll

01:33:35.580 have the

01:33:35.840 organism

01:33:36.180 that will

01:33:36.640 never suffer

01:33:37.580 the possibility

01:33:38.440 of extinction

01:33:39.000 that's impossible

01:33:39.800 you can't do

01:33:40.480 that

01:33:40.640 I think

01:33:41.220 and if

01:33:42.080 relevance

01:33:42.480 realization

01:33:43.060 the meaning

01:33:43.840 is a kind

01:33:45.040 of you know

01:33:45.600 ongoing

01:33:46.140 rapid

01:33:46.800 cognitive evolution

01:33:48.040 there is no

01:33:48.800 final form

01:33:50.000 of that

01:33:50.180 this is one

01:33:50.720 of the areas

01:33:51.120 where I

01:33:51.400 criticize

01:33:51.820 the platonic

01:33:52.440 framework

01:33:52.980 Plato's notion

01:33:54.540 of the

01:33:56.140 sacred

01:33:56.520 as completion

01:33:58.320 static

01:33:59.560 perfection

01:34:00.480 that I

01:34:01.860 find is

01:34:02.640 very problematic

01:34:03.360 because I

01:34:03.800 don't think

01:34:04.200 it actually

01:34:04.580 sits well

01:34:05.160 with his

01:34:05.580 notion

01:34:06.260 I like to

01:34:09.220 think of

01:34:09.540 music in

01:34:10.060 that regard

01:34:10.580 too

01:34:10.800 and you

01:34:11.140 think about

01:34:11.600 what Bach

01:34:12.280 does in

01:34:12.760 particular

01:34:13.100 I really

01:34:13.460 love the

01:34:13.820 Brandenburg

01:34:14.200 Concertos

01:34:14.620 because what

01:34:15.240 Bach does

01:34:15.780 is he brings

01:34:16.380 a phrase

01:34:16.960 to a

01:34:17.740 magnificent

01:34:18.260 conclusion

01:34:18.900 and then out

01:34:19.880 of that

01:34:20.260 emerges another

01:34:21.100 set of

01:34:21.500 possibilities

01:34:22.020 that he

01:34:22.420 brings to

01:34:22.820 another

01:34:23.220 magnificent

01:34:23.880 conclusion

01:34:24.400 and it

01:34:25.140 seems to

01:34:25.520 me that

01:34:25.800 that's a

01:34:26.220 nice model

01:34:27.340 for the

01:34:27.760 unfolding of

01:34:28.440 being

01:34:28.820 right

01:34:29.120 it's to

01:34:30.260 attain a

01:34:30.820 goal and

01:34:31.320 then to

01:34:31.620 pull out of

01:34:32.060 that goal

01:34:32.560 a new goal

01:34:33.280 that transcends

01:34:34.160 the previous

01:34:34.680 goal and to

01:34:35.280 do that

01:34:35.680 indefinitely

01:34:36.380 that's the

01:34:36.880 self-organizing

01:34:37.400 and then maybe

01:34:38.580 you do have

01:34:39.260 as a final

01:34:39.920 solution in

01:34:40.680 some sense

01:34:41.220 to that

01:34:41.680 the acquiescence

01:34:43.120 to that

01:34:43.520 process

01:34:44.180 okay so

01:34:45.080 let me

01:34:45.560 sorry but

01:34:47.380 isn't that

01:34:48.160 the ultimate

01:34:49.260 version of

01:34:50.000 your metagame

01:34:50.940 yes

01:34:51.300 yes definitely

01:34:52.900 yes

01:34:53.580 okay so

01:34:54.380 let me

01:34:55.180 throw this

01:34:55.500 of this in

01:34:56.160 Christianity

01:34:56.620 especially in

01:34:57.700 Eastern Orthodoxy

01:34:58.600 you see it

01:34:59.260 with Gregory of

01:34:59.840 Nyssa

01:35:00.760 and you see

01:35:02.280 it in Maximus

01:35:03.380 and it's

01:35:05.600 this notion

01:35:05.960 of epictasis

01:35:06.680 that we

01:35:07.540 don't come

01:35:08.020 to rest

01:35:08.720 in God

01:35:09.360 right

01:35:09.720 what God

01:35:10.220 is is God

01:35:10.960 is the

01:35:11.720 the meta

01:35:12.940 affordance

01:35:13.620 so that we

01:35:14.180 continually

01:35:14.800 self-transcend

01:35:16.440 through God

01:35:16.960 yeah yeah

01:35:17.500 we never

01:35:18.000 that's the

01:35:18.760 Jacob's Ladder

01:35:19.340 vision

01:35:19.660 yes

01:35:19.980 too

01:35:20.280 right

01:35:20.720 right

01:35:20.960 to ascend

01:35:21.540 continually

01:35:22.200 towards a

01:35:23.380 destination

01:35:24.300 that's infinitely

01:35:25.080 receding

01:35:25.640 that's right

01:35:26.040 right and

01:35:26.420 that grows

01:35:26.920 as it recedes

01:35:27.720 but this is

01:35:28.560 the thing

01:35:28.820 the infinity

01:35:29.400 is not

01:35:29.960 inaccessible

01:35:30.620 to you

01:35:31.060 right

01:35:31.440 because the

01:35:32.720 infinity is not

01:35:33.480 just receding

01:35:34.200 from you

01:35:34.680 it's also

01:35:35.280 reaching towards

01:35:36.240 you

01:35:36.500 and this is

01:35:37.520 reality

01:35:37.940 reality is

01:35:38.620 constantly

01:35:38.980 shining into

01:35:40.100 your frame

01:35:40.760 with intelligibility

01:35:41.900 and constantly

01:35:42.940 receding out

01:35:43.860 into the mystery

01:35:44.600 and I think

01:35:45.960 and that's

01:35:46.880 the parallel

01:35:47.920 of the Greek

01:35:48.840 idea of the

01:35:49.420 Logos I think

01:35:50.100 with the Judeo-Christian

01:35:51.000 idea of the Logos

01:35:51.960 I think so too

01:35:52.760 I mean there's

01:35:53.420 lots of people

01:35:53.980 who won't like

01:35:55.000 that but I

01:35:56.120 think the notion

01:35:57.220 of the Logos

01:35:58.320 that you know

01:36:00.040 especially as you

01:36:00.760 see it coming

01:36:01.260 through the

01:36:02.360 Neoplatonic

01:36:02.920 tradition and

01:36:04.120 taken up

01:36:04.660 into Dialogos

01:36:05.700 into dialectic

01:36:06.500 I think

01:36:07.260 that deeply

01:36:08.300 converges

01:36:08.940 I mean

01:36:09.820 the Christian

01:36:11.680 model is

01:36:12.240 ultimately a

01:36:12.840 model of

01:36:13.360 that

01:36:13.600 and this is

01:36:15.040 you know

01:36:15.440 I'm not going

01:36:16.000 to try and

01:36:16.760 do anything

01:36:17.560 but the paradox

01:36:18.720 of the unity

01:36:20.520 trinity

01:36:21.200 is an attempt

01:36:22.540 to somehow

01:36:23.260 say there's

01:36:24.320 something inherently

01:36:25.100 dialogical

01:36:25.960 I would argue

01:36:26.540 about how

01:36:28.600 we come

01:36:29.620 into relationship

01:36:30.360 with ultimate

01:36:31.020 reality

01:36:31.520 and that's

01:36:33.280 right and it's

01:36:34.000 an attempt

01:36:34.400 to solve

01:36:34.860 the problem

01:36:35.300 of unity

01:36:35.760 and multiplicity

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01:37:53.480 so I've been

01:37:54.800 looking at the

01:37:55.400 transformations of

01:37:56.420 the image of

01:37:57.360 God in the

01:37:57.940 biblical corpus

01:37:58.620 we know the

01:37:59.020 biblical corpus

01:37:59.700 is an assembled

01:38:00.620 library right

01:38:01.480 and we don't

01:38:02.320 exactly understand

01:38:03.520 the process by

01:38:04.500 which the stories

01:38:05.360 came to follow

01:38:06.500 one another

01:38:06.980 and how they

01:38:07.340 were redacted

01:38:07.980 with each other

01:38:08.460 exactly

01:38:08.960 exactly

01:38:09.400 so it's a

01:38:09.900 mystery but

01:38:10.420 it's a mystery

01:38:11.180 of collective

01:38:11.960 intuition

01:38:12.480 it's something

01:38:12.920 like that

01:38:13.340 yeah

01:38:13.460 distributed

01:38:13.820 cognition

01:38:14.280 would that

01:38:14.580 work

01:38:14.680 yes

01:38:14.920 yes

01:38:15.220 and it's

01:38:16.420 something like

01:38:17.040 distributed

01:38:18.180 insight

01:38:19.320 because what

01:38:20.560 happens is

01:38:21.220 there's different

01:38:22.080 forms of

01:38:22.840 juxtaposition

01:38:23.680 and some of

01:38:24.660 them catch on

01:38:25.420 people go

01:38:26.060 oh yes

01:38:26.620 that works

01:38:27.320 but they don't

01:38:27.880 know why

01:38:28.360 which is a very

01:38:29.460 interesting thing

01:38:29.980 so you have

01:38:31.260 the old testament

01:38:32.020 corpus in

01:38:33.020 christianity

01:38:33.540 followed by the

01:38:34.100 new testament

01:38:34.580 corpus

01:38:35.000 and there's a

01:38:35.420 new proposition

01:38:35.980 here

01:38:36.440 I want you to

01:38:37.120 tell me what

01:38:37.920 you think about

01:38:38.380 this

01:38:38.660 so

01:38:39.320 one of the

01:38:41.900 things that

01:38:42.320 psychotherapists

01:38:43.080 have learned

01:38:43.620 across disciplines

01:38:44.820 in the last

01:38:45.520 hundred years

01:38:46.060 is that if you

01:38:46.680 get people to

01:38:47.520 voluntarily

01:38:49.320 what they're

01:38:50.900 afraid of

01:38:51.800 avoiding

01:38:52.300 disgusted by

01:38:53.480 and inclined

01:38:54.700 to be willfully

01:38:55.440 blind about

01:38:56.180 they get

01:38:57.200 braver

01:38:57.720 it isn't

01:38:59.580 habituation

01:39:00.300 it's not

01:39:01.800 the substitution

01:39:04.260 of relaxation

01:39:05.140 for anxiety

01:39:06.760 because you can

01:39:07.240 do it without

01:39:07.640 relaxation training

01:39:08.540 it seems to

01:39:09.540 be contingent

01:39:11.060 on the

01:39:11.740 willingness to

01:39:12.500 do the

01:39:13.000 voluntary

01:39:13.440 confrontation

01:39:14.280 yeah

01:39:14.960 but that

01:39:16.060 means

01:39:16.420 I think that

01:39:17.760 really means

01:39:18.580 a willingness

01:39:19.060 to break

01:39:20.360 down

01:39:20.800 to a degree

01:39:22.100 to

01:39:22.380 there has

01:39:23.600 to be

01:39:23.900 so

01:39:24.980 the

01:39:25.420 willingness

01:39:25.700 can't be

01:39:26.500 mere assertion

01:39:27.860 it can't

01:39:28.620 be

01:39:28.820 it has to

01:39:29.600 be

01:39:29.720 it's not

01:39:29.980 it's not

01:39:30.560 propositional

01:39:31.760 you have to

01:39:32.880 do it

01:39:33.320 yeah

01:39:33.500 you have to

01:39:33.900 do it

01:39:34.180 and there

01:39:34.420 has to be

01:39:35.520 a vulnerability

01:39:36.000 there has to

01:39:36.620 be a real

01:39:37.060 willingness to

01:39:37.760 learn

01:39:38.220 and to

01:39:38.860 be

01:39:38.980 yeah

01:39:39.260 that's

01:39:39.520 humility

01:39:39.940 yes

01:39:40.300 humility

01:39:40.780 epistemic

01:39:41.980 and moral

01:39:42.580 humility

01:39:42.980 and so

01:39:43.580 I think

01:39:44.080 what you're

01:39:45.580 doing is

01:39:45.980 you're

01:39:46.760 actually

01:39:47.180 making use

01:39:48.160 of dialogue

01:39:48.920 or perhaps

01:39:49.600 even

01:39:49.840 dialogos

01:39:50.480 yeah

01:39:50.820 in order

01:39:51.580 to afford

01:39:52.200 the

01:39:52.380 complexification

01:39:53.220 of the

01:39:53.600 person's

01:39:54.000 competence

01:39:54.420 which is

01:39:54.840 actually

01:39:55.320 what they

01:39:55.740 are ultimately

01:39:56.460 seeking

01:39:56.720 yes

01:39:56.980 yes

01:39:57.620 well you

01:39:58.280 do that

01:39:58.680 in part

01:39:59.100 by demonstrating

01:39:59.800 to them

01:40:00.340 that they

01:40:00.680 can find

01:40:01.340 the zone

01:40:02.480 of proximal

01:40:03.220 development

01:40:03.500 exactly

01:40:03.840 voluntary

01:40:04.440 confrontation

01:40:05.140 right

01:40:05.460 so if

01:40:06.060 you're

01:40:06.220 exposing

01:40:06.580 to someone

01:40:07.100 to an

01:40:07.420 elevator

01:40:07.780 that they're

01:40:08.220 afraid of

01:40:08.700 they might

01:40:09.300 not get

01:40:09.660 in the

01:40:09.900 elevator

01:40:10.260 but they

01:40:10.940 will stand

01:40:11.540 40 feet

01:40:12.320 away

01:40:12.600 and look

01:40:13.000 at it

01:40:13.320 right

01:40:13.500 and 39

01:40:14.400 feet

01:40:14.520 progressive

01:40:14.880 desensitization

01:40:15.560 yeah

01:40:16.000 which is

01:40:16.840 not a

01:40:17.180 good term

01:40:17.620 because what

01:40:18.060 it is

01:40:18.360 in fact

01:40:19.100 is it's

01:40:19.860 progressive

01:40:20.440 generalizable

01:40:21.480 adaptation

01:40:22.440 exactly

01:40:23.020 right

01:40:23.240 it's a

01:40:23.620 very different

01:40:24.200 thing

01:40:24.540 yes

01:40:24.860 and that's

01:40:25.160 what I was

01:40:25.440 going to argue

01:40:25.900 I was going

01:40:26.200 to argue

01:40:26.440 it's actually

01:40:27.020 progressive

01:40:27.620 complexification

01:40:28.560 of their

01:40:29.080 cognitive

01:40:29.400 capacity

01:40:29.960 they can

01:40:30.820 manage

01:40:31.180 more and

01:40:31.600 more of

01:40:31.840 the variables

01:40:32.340 without being

01:40:33.120 overwhelmed

01:40:33.800 by the

01:40:34.880 potentialities

01:40:35.600 that are

01:40:35.820 presenting

01:40:36.200 well and

01:40:36.560 they also

01:40:36.940 have a

01:40:37.340 chance

01:40:37.600 to observe

01:40:38.400 themselves

01:40:39.540 acting out

01:40:40.460 the proposition

01:40:41.080 that they are

01:40:41.760 those creatures

01:40:42.560 right

01:40:43.360 because one

01:40:43.940 of the

01:40:44.200 metacognitions

01:40:44.980 that goes

01:40:45.420 along with

01:40:46.080 phobic avoidance

01:40:47.520 is I can't

01:40:48.820 handle this

01:40:49.600 yes

01:40:49.860 and so then

01:40:50.560 you put the

01:40:51.120 person in the

01:40:51.580 situation

01:40:51.940 you challenge

01:40:52.440 that

01:40:52.640 yeah and you

01:40:53.060 show well

01:40:53.480 yes under

01:40:54.240 certain

01:40:54.660 circumstances

01:40:55.300 not only

01:40:55.900 can you

01:40:56.800 handle this

01:40:57.420 but you

01:40:57.780 find it

01:40:58.200 optimally

01:40:58.720 challenging

01:40:59.180 and it's

01:40:59.560 really good

01:40:59.940 for your

01:41:00.240 development

01:41:00.660 and so

01:41:01.240 basically

01:41:01.620 what you

01:41:02.020 do is

01:41:02.380 you put

01:41:02.700 someone

01:41:03.080 you're using

01:41:03.880 exposure

01:41:04.340 therapy

01:41:04.800 you put

01:41:05.760 them into

01:41:06.180 the zone

01:41:07.260 that everyone

01:41:08.080 occupies

01:41:08.600 when they're

01:41:08.920 learning optimally

01:41:09.640 it's exactly

01:41:10.340 the same

01:41:10.700 thing

01:41:10.900 but the

01:41:12.020 zone is

01:41:12.460 exactly

01:41:12.940 that place

01:41:13.940 between

01:41:14.500 assimilation

01:41:15.340 and accommodation

01:41:15.960 that we were

01:41:16.400 talking about

01:41:16.760 earlier

01:41:17.040 you're trying

01:41:18.040 to get

01:41:18.300 them to see

01:41:19.940 if you'll

01:41:21.260 allow me

01:41:21.520 some of my

01:41:21.920 language

01:41:22.180 that it's not

01:41:22.840 the problem

01:41:23.640 isn't just

01:41:24.140 subjectively in

01:41:25.080 them

01:41:25.200 I can't get

01:41:26.000 in the elevator

01:41:26.520 no no

01:41:27.160 there's a

01:41:28.200 real relationship

01:41:29.100 that you

01:41:29.620 are capable

01:41:30.460 of evolving

01:41:31.300 between

01:41:32.060 like you can

01:41:33.000 and you can

01:41:33.800 evolve

01:41:35.160 your cognition

01:41:36.320 so that you

01:41:36.840 can get

01:41:37.160 into the elevator

01:41:38.260 right

01:41:38.540 so that you

01:41:39.060 can confront

01:41:39.580 what you're

01:41:39.960 afraid of

01:41:40.420 I had one

01:41:41.140 client

01:41:41.480 the doors

01:41:42.080 finally opened

01:41:42.680 to the elevator

01:41:43.160 and she said

01:41:43.600 that's a tomb

01:41:44.460 and I thought

01:41:45.480 well we're

01:41:46.360 we're simultaneously

01:41:47.480 exposing you

01:41:48.620 in this Freudian

01:41:49.380 symbolic manner

01:41:50.200 not only to the

01:41:50.940 elevator but to

01:41:51.640 the idea of

01:41:52.140 your own

01:41:52.520 finitude and

01:41:53.160 mortality

01:41:53.540 and that was

01:41:54.020 definitely

01:41:54.440 happening at

01:41:55.080 the same

01:41:55.460 time

01:41:55.840 okay so

01:41:57.000 there's

01:41:57.360 so imagine

01:41:58.200 that the

01:41:59.140 biblical

01:41:59.420 corpus

01:41:59.920 is

01:42:00.200 assembled

01:42:01.440 and there's

01:42:02.020 multiple

01:42:02.560 pictures of

01:42:03.340 the spirit

01:42:03.820 of God

01:42:04.340 that characterize

01:42:04.960 the Old

01:42:05.380 Testament

01:42:05.680 and then

01:42:05.960 there's a

01:42:06.240 culmination

01:42:06.860 at least

01:42:07.220 from the

01:42:07.520 Christian

01:42:08.540 in the New

01:42:08.980 Testament

01:42:09.320 but here's

01:42:10.080 the idea

01:42:10.480 of the

01:42:10.740 culmination

01:42:11.360 the idea

01:42:12.580 is that

01:42:13.140 the same

01:42:13.620 spirit

01:42:14.060 that called

01:42:14.600 Noah

01:42:14.880 to prepare

01:42:15.440 for catastrophe

01:42:16.240 and the

01:42:16.760 same spirit

01:42:17.420 that called

01:42:18.220 Abraham

01:42:18.580 out of his

01:42:19.180 comfort

01:42:19.500 to the

01:42:19.840 adventure

01:42:20.180 of his

01:42:20.700 life

01:42:20.980 is the

01:42:21.820 spirit

01:42:22.160 that

01:42:22.560 is

01:42:23.540 motivating

01:42:24.880 people

01:42:25.340 to

01:42:25.600 voluntarily

01:42:26.180 confront

01:42:26.820 the

01:42:27.100 catastrophic

01:42:27.620 suffering

01:42:28.060 of their

01:42:28.400 life

01:42:28.700 it's the

01:42:29.600 same

01:42:29.840 idea

01:42:30.200 and then

01:42:30.520 that idea

01:42:30.980 gets

01:42:31.240 transformed

01:42:31.760 even

01:42:32.000 one more

01:42:32.460 one more

01:42:33.360 in one

01:42:34.100 more profound

01:42:34.700 manner

01:42:35.020 which is

01:42:35.540 not only

01:42:36.920 is that

01:42:37.240 the same

01:42:37.680 spirit

01:42:38.120 now humanized

01:42:39.180 right

01:42:39.440 because that's

01:42:40.260 something you can

01:42:40.760 actually act

01:42:41.540 out

01:42:41.880 but that if you

01:42:43.140 do act it out

01:42:44.160 that that inverts

01:42:44.980 the tragedy

01:42:45.600 and so the

01:42:46.500 hypothesis is that

01:42:47.720 there's a

01:42:48.220 paradoxical balance

01:42:50.220 between the degree

01:42:51.960 to which you're

01:42:52.800 willing to

01:42:53.340 voluntarily take on

01:42:54.720 the suffering

01:42:55.220 of your life

01:42:55.900 and your ability

01:42:56.700 to simultaneously

01:42:57.380 transcend the

01:42:58.260 suffering

01:42:58.600 and that in the

01:42:59.460 final analysis

01:43:00.200 the more you're

01:43:01.880 willing to bear the

01:43:03.080 burden of being

01:43:03.720 voluntarily

01:43:04.340 the less

01:43:05.540 suffering

01:43:05.880 is actually

01:43:06.320 associated

01:43:06.800 with that

01:43:07.280 the more

01:43:07.760 play

01:43:08.260 right

01:43:08.760 the more

01:43:09.280 the more

01:43:10.060 progression

01:43:10.620 up Jacob's

01:43:11.400 ladder

01:43:11.700 and so

01:43:12.140 like

01:43:12.620 okay

01:43:13.680 two things

01:43:14.440 what do you

01:43:15.220 think about

01:43:15.700 the proposition

01:43:16.320 that seems

01:43:17.400 to emerge

01:43:17.900 there

01:43:18.120 that that's

01:43:18.780 the same

01:43:19.600 spirit

01:43:20.240 and that

01:43:21.360 it's reasonably

01:43:22.240 construed as

01:43:22.880 a spirit

01:43:23.220 and what do

01:43:23.580 you think

01:43:23.860 about that

01:43:24.280 as a proposition

01:43:25.140 I mean you

01:43:25.800 tend to take

01:43:26.360 to come at

01:43:26.980 this from a

01:43:27.420 more Buddhist

01:43:27.900 perspective

01:43:28.540 so I'm

01:43:28.940 or Neoplatonic

01:43:29.780 so for me

01:43:32.700 right

01:43:35.940 that

01:43:38.100 I mean

01:43:38.760 that process

01:43:40.500 that process

01:43:41.820 of being able

01:43:42.380 to find

01:43:43.140 the through

01:43:43.800 lines

01:43:44.180 of the deeper

01:43:44.920 for me

01:43:45.900 when you're

01:43:46.280 talking about

01:43:46.520 a spirit

01:43:46.840 you're talking

01:43:47.340 about like

01:43:47.980 a dynamical

01:43:48.720 self-organizing

01:43:49.900 system

01:43:50.320 that's generative

01:43:51.300 in the way

01:43:51.680 we've been

01:43:52.060 talking about

01:43:52.580 and it doesn't

01:43:53.340 just generate

01:43:53.940 being

01:43:54.360 it generates

01:43:54.980 the intelligibility

01:43:55.860 of being

01:43:56.440 so right

01:43:57.720 and that's

01:43:58.140 logos

01:43:58.500 yes right

01:43:59.480 right

01:43:59.760 and so

01:44:00.240 for me

01:44:02.040 trying to

01:44:03.120 find

01:44:03.620 right

01:44:04.300 the through

01:44:04.960 line

01:44:05.500 right

01:44:06.400 so this

01:44:07.000 has a logos

01:44:07.540 and this

01:44:07.920 has a logos

01:44:08.400 but what's

01:44:08.800 the logos

01:44:09.240 of all

01:44:09.800 of these

01:44:10.280 right

01:44:10.600 right

01:44:10.820 right

01:44:11.060 and it's

01:44:12.420 this nested

01:44:13.200 and that

01:44:14.000 maps onto

01:44:14.440 everything

01:44:14.760 we've been

01:44:15.100 talking about

01:44:15.600 cognition

01:44:16.400 intelligence

01:44:17.080 and consciousness

01:44:18.620 the recursive

01:44:19.600 relevance

01:44:19.880 realization

01:44:20.520 the predictive

01:44:21.580 processing

01:44:22.080 like for me

01:44:23.480 those two

01:44:24.740 things

01:44:25.240 sing

01:44:26.280 and if

01:44:27.120 the argument

01:44:27.880 about the

01:44:28.500 grammar of

01:44:28.920 reality

01:44:29.340 has to

01:44:30.320 our cognition

01:44:31.180 has to be

01:44:31.640 deeply

01:44:31.940 conformable

01:44:32.620 to that

01:44:33.080 then

01:44:33.620 for me

01:44:34.960 that's

01:44:35.700 that's

01:44:36.520 something

01:44:36.720 the neo

01:44:37.040 Platonists

01:44:37.620 are talking

01:44:37.940 so what the

01:44:38.640 neo Platonists

01:44:39.220 are doing

01:44:39.700 right

01:44:40.360 is

01:44:41.800 they're

01:44:42.440 they're taking

01:44:43.240 Plato

01:44:43.660 and they're

01:44:44.520 finding

01:44:44.900 that

01:44:45.840 spirit

01:44:46.620 right

01:44:47.580 Plato's

01:44:48.540 the spirit

01:44:49.260 that takes

01:44:49.640 you out

01:44:49.880 of the cave

01:44:50.380 the ascent

01:44:51.360 the reciprocal

01:44:52.200 and the

01:44:52.480 dialogical

01:44:53.060 spirit

01:44:53.460 yeah

01:44:53.720 I'd like

01:44:54.220 to come

01:44:54.480 back to

01:44:54.780 that

01:44:54.900 and then

01:44:55.680 you've got

01:44:56.020 the Aristotelian

01:44:56.960 spirit

01:44:57.320 which is

01:44:58.280 the idea

01:44:59.500 of knowing

01:45:00.000 as conforming

01:45:01.220 and the

01:45:01.840 scientific project

01:45:02.800 of trying to

01:45:03.340 get an

01:45:03.700 organized

01:45:04.340 systematic

01:45:05.020 understanding

01:45:05.620 and then

01:45:06.140 you have

01:45:06.380 the stoic

01:45:07.060 system

01:45:08.080 of

01:45:08.520 no

01:45:08.860 no

01:45:09.120 logos

01:45:09.920 is

01:45:10.180 how

01:45:10.640 do I

01:45:11.060 best

01:45:11.420 integrate

01:45:12.060 my

01:45:12.340 agency

01:45:12.920 so that

01:45:13.400 I can

01:45:13.640 be

01:45:13.840 most

01:45:14.440 virtuously

01:45:15.140 disposed

01:45:15.700 to the

01:45:16.000 world

01:45:16.220 so that

01:45:16.940 I am

01:45:17.180 not

01:45:17.360 overwhelmed

01:45:17.960 by the

01:45:18.440 tragedy

01:45:18.900 but I

01:45:19.500 can

01:45:19.600 right

01:45:19.820 right

01:45:20.340 and then

01:45:21.080 and

01:45:22.200 so

01:45:22.840 neo Platonism

01:45:23.720 is like

01:45:24.320 that grand

01:45:24.840 unified

01:45:25.380 field theory

01:45:26.620 of

01:45:27.500 the whole

01:45:28.500 philosophical

01:45:29.600 spiritual

01:45:30.160 tradition

01:45:30.700 of Socrates

01:45:31.600 this is what

01:45:32.020 I'm doing

01:45:32.340 in my series

01:45:32.860 after Socrates

01:45:33.600 is tracing

01:45:34.140 that out

01:45:34.640 right

01:45:35.080 you should

01:45:35.440 just tell

01:45:35.880 everybody

01:45:36.220 now about

01:45:36.800 that

01:45:37.080 so

01:45:37.340 so that

01:45:37.820 everybody

01:45:38.100 listening

01:45:38.540 knows

01:45:38.880 so

01:45:39.040 on January

01:45:44.740 9th

01:45:45.200 I'm releasing

01:45:45.620 my new

01:45:46.120 series

01:45:46.580 after Socrates

01:45:48.460 it'll be free

01:45:49.240 on YouTube

01:45:49.700 it'll be released

01:45:50.420 twice a week

01:45:52.340 Mondays

01:45:52.760 and Thursdays

01:45:53.500 and I'm

01:45:54.940 really trying

01:45:55.620 to play

01:45:56.460 with the

01:45:56.780 format

01:45:57.100 and bring

01:45:58.840 to light

01:45:59.480 this

01:46:01.000 whole

01:46:02.360 through line

01:46:03.040 that runs

01:46:03.420 from Socrates

01:46:04.140 to people

01:46:05.540 like Nicholas

01:46:06.160 of Cusa

01:46:06.680 and Erugina

01:46:07.500 right

01:46:08.140 and

01:46:09.020 what

01:46:10.020 it is

01:46:10.920 is there's

01:46:11.380 a continuing

01:46:12.200 lectures

01:46:12.960 series

01:46:13.380 that build

01:46:13.800 a continuous

01:46:14.220 argument

01:46:14.620 like I did

01:46:15.100 in Awakening

01:46:15.540 from the

01:46:15.840 Meaning Crisis

01:46:16.300 but I also

01:46:17.220 have a section

01:46:17.720 on points

01:46:18.200 to ponder

01:46:18.640 so

01:46:18.920 and this

01:46:19.220 is to

01:46:19.440 encourage

01:46:19.720 people

01:46:19.960 to reflect

01:46:20.480 and to

01:46:20.940 discuss

01:46:21.260 with each

01:46:21.640 other

01:46:21.840 and then

01:46:22.520 I also

01:46:22.960 teach a

01:46:23.380 practice

01:46:23.840 I move

01:46:24.340 out of

01:46:24.640 the

01:46:24.760 propositional

01:46:25.420 and there's

01:46:26.100 a pedagogical

01:46:26.800 program

01:46:27.240 of practices

01:46:27.860 that is

01:46:28.280 also unfolding

01:46:29.140 in parallel

01:46:30.140 to the

01:46:30.580 lectures

01:46:30.980 and then

01:46:31.900 I also

01:46:32.300 move out

01:46:32.680 of the

01:46:32.940 monologue

01:46:33.380 because I'm

01:46:33.700 trying to

01:46:33.940 be Socratic

01:46:34.680 right

01:46:34.980 and so

01:46:35.760 I have

01:46:36.080 episodes

01:46:37.200 where I'll

01:46:37.800 be with

01:46:38.060 other people

01:46:38.600 and the

01:46:39.080 four of us

01:46:39.540 will demonstrate

01:46:40.580 a whole

01:46:41.560 ecology

01:46:42.060 of practices

01:46:42.660 and then

01:46:43.800 I'm also

01:46:44.180 trying to

01:46:44.640 put the

01:46:45.140 whole

01:46:45.340 Socratic

01:46:46.220 right

01:46:47.180 way

01:46:48.740 into

01:46:49.200 dialogue

01:46:49.720 with

01:46:50.220 Christianity

01:46:52.320 because that's

01:46:53.700 what happened

01:46:54.120 in the

01:46:54.440 West

01:46:54.740 right

01:46:55.000 and so

01:46:56.260 there's

01:46:57.640 a series

01:46:59.540 within the

01:47:00.020 series

01:47:00.280 Christopher

01:47:00.660 Master

01:47:00.980 Pietro

01:47:01.440 and I

01:47:01.660 we meet

01:47:02.040 and we

01:47:02.320 go into

01:47:02.620 dialogue

01:47:03.040 because we're

01:47:03.780 doing

01:47:04.040 Kierkegaard's

01:47:04.720 confrontation

01:47:05.100 with Socrates

01:47:05.820 and Kierkegaard's

01:47:06.720 wrestling

01:47:07.180 and I would

01:47:08.620 say it's

01:47:08.880 opponent

01:47:09.180 processing

01:47:09.700 so he's

01:47:10.900 a follower

01:47:11.340 of Christ

01:47:11.960 but Socrates

01:47:12.620 is his

01:47:13.080 teacher

01:47:13.420 and he's

01:47:14.980 constantly

01:47:15.460 toggling

01:47:16.060 between those

01:47:16.980 and you can

01:47:17.300 see this

01:47:17.640 very

01:47:18.200 well that's

01:47:19.220 an opponent

01:47:19.580 process

01:47:20.000 that's at

01:47:20.480 work in

01:47:20.840 Western

01:47:21.080 civilization

01:47:21.560 itself

01:47:22.020 exactly

01:47:22.260 and so

01:47:23.200 Chris and I

01:47:23.640 are bringing

01:47:24.000 that out

01:47:24.780 and so

01:47:25.840 what I'm

01:47:26.100 trying to

01:47:26.440 do is

01:47:26.900 I'm trying

01:47:27.440 to

01:47:27.800 now people

01:47:29.340 can get

01:47:29.680 access to

01:47:30.140 this on

01:47:30.480 your

01:47:30.640 YouTube

01:47:30.980 channel

01:47:31.380 so you

01:47:32.000 can just

01:47:32.280 look up

01:47:32.660 John

01:47:32.900 Verveke

01:47:33.320 find his

01:47:33.840 YouTube

01:47:34.100 channel

01:47:34.400 we'll put

01:47:34.720 the links

01:47:35.060 in the

01:47:35.300 description

01:47:35.640 of this

01:47:35.920 video

01:47:36.240 and so

01:47:36.900 what I'm

01:47:38.420 trying to

01:47:39.040 do is

01:47:39.540 it's called

01:47:40.080 after Socrates

01:47:40.760 because I'm

01:47:42.780 after Socrates

01:47:44.300 and then I'm

01:47:44.860 trying to

01:47:45.300 understand him

01:47:46.080 right

01:47:46.340 I'm trying

01:47:46.660 to

01:47:46.820 because he's

01:47:48.700 a deeply

01:47:49.160 enigmatic

01:47:49.880 figure

01:47:50.340 and importantly

01:47:51.900 so

01:47:52.560 because one

01:47:53.840 of the great

01:47:54.480 things about

01:47:55.160 the Socratic

01:47:55.680 dialogues is

01:47:56.480 Socrates

01:47:57.560 never

01:47:58.360 Socrates is

01:47:59.300 always in that

01:48:00.820 zone of proximal

01:48:01.600 development

01:48:01.940 he's shining in

01:48:04.400 enough to your

01:48:04.840 intelligibility

01:48:05.460 and then he

01:48:06.160 puts you into

01:48:06.880 aporia

01:48:07.280 that state

01:48:07.800 where you

01:48:08.040 have perplexity

01:48:09.180 and wonder

01:48:09.520 because he wants

01:48:10.020 to also open you

01:48:10.860 up to the mystery

01:48:11.480 and he's constantly

01:48:12.360 and so I'm after

01:48:14.060 Socrates in that

01:48:15.060 sense

01:48:15.460 and I'm after

01:48:16.440 Socrates in that

01:48:17.120 I want to try and

01:48:17.980 reverse engineer

01:48:18.780 this practice of

01:48:19.880 dialectic into

01:48:20.720 diologos

01:48:21.180 not Hegelian

01:48:21.800 dialectic

01:48:22.360 platonic dialectic

01:48:23.660 and there's all

01:48:24.000 this new work

01:48:24.600 on it

01:48:24.880 so dialectics

01:48:26.020 is a practice

01:48:26.640 and diologos

01:48:27.240 is a process

01:48:27.960 you get it

01:48:28.720 well diologos

01:48:30.160 is the practice

01:48:30.820 of psychotherapy

01:48:31.640 I think so

01:48:32.620 it is

01:48:32.880 it's the redemptive

01:48:34.060 practice of

01:48:34.620 psychotherapy

01:48:35.180 right

01:48:35.480 the mutual

01:48:36.020 exploration of

01:48:37.080 the truth

01:48:37.800 that redeems

01:48:38.500 so Socrates

01:48:40.580 is you know

01:48:41.340 is about

01:48:42.440 this is easy

01:48:43.660 to say

01:48:44.160 and it is

01:48:44.620 hard to realize

01:48:45.480 in both senses

01:48:46.080 of the word

01:48:46.460 of understand

01:48:47.340 and to make

01:48:47.800 real

01:48:48.080 to be able

01:48:49.460 to follow

01:48:49.840 the logos

01:48:50.280 wherever it

01:48:50.800 goes

01:48:51.060 and to do

01:48:53.060 that

01:48:53.300 comprehensively

01:48:54.320 profoundly

01:48:54.740 percolating

01:48:55.700 through

01:48:55.940 different layers

01:48:57.100 of the psyche

01:48:57.580 permeating

01:48:58.200 many different

01:48:58.980 domains of

01:48:59.720 your life

01:49:00.060 getting that

01:49:00.560 ultimate

01:49:00.980 profundity

01:49:02.340 that ultimate

01:49:02.840 kind of plausibility

01:49:03.820 that ultimate

01:49:04.740 unity

01:49:05.180 yes

01:49:05.600 yes

01:49:06.000 and so

01:49:06.420 and intensity

01:49:07.520 of purpose

01:49:08.160 because when

01:49:08.800 things become

01:49:09.460 unified in

01:49:10.100 relationship to

01:49:10.800 the purpose

01:49:11.240 it makes you

01:49:12.220 in some sense

01:49:12.960 comparatively

01:49:13.540 unstoppable

01:49:14.220 it's a good

01:49:15.200 thing to be

01:49:16.080 unstoppable in

01:49:16.820 life because

01:49:17.160 there's plenty

01:49:17.680 of things that

01:49:18.420 conspire to

01:49:19.040 attempt to stop

01:49:19.800 you

01:49:20.040 yes

01:49:20.480 and he

01:49:21.340 that's why

01:49:22.500 he actually

01:49:23.040 he dies

01:49:23.760 for it

01:49:24.380 right

01:49:24.720 well that's

01:49:25.520 very relevant

01:49:26.880 to our

01:49:27.420 discussion of

01:49:28.240 transcendent

01:49:29.100 meaning

01:49:29.360 because one

01:49:30.280 of the things

01:49:30.840 that emerges

01:49:31.520 in the

01:49:32.280 Socratic

01:49:32.740 apologia

01:49:33.580 is the sense

01:49:35.080 that Socrates

01:49:36.180 has lived a

01:49:37.180 life so deep

01:49:38.040 and meaningful

01:49:38.640 that he's able

01:49:39.900 to abide by

01:49:43.020 his set of

01:49:43.640 moral principles

01:49:44.240 even in the

01:49:44.840 face of death

01:49:45.560 yes

01:49:45.900 right and part

01:49:46.760 of the reason

01:49:47.180 for that appears

01:49:47.840 to be that he

01:49:50.320 lived his life

01:49:50.980 fully and so

01:49:52.760 he's satisfied

01:49:53.480 with it in some

01:49:54.200 fundamental sense

01:49:55.020 right he's not

01:49:55.460 clinging to it

01:49:56.340 so this is the

01:49:58.040 interesting thing

01:49:58.600 about him I mean

01:49:59.700 you know Socrates

01:50:00.480 knows that he does

01:50:01.160 not know and that

01:50:01.780 eventually becomes

01:50:02.480 the learned ignorance

01:50:03.520 of Nicholas of

01:50:04.260 Cusa and the

01:50:05.060 ability to wrestle

01:50:05.760 with the paradoxes

01:50:06.740 and the coincident

01:50:07.540 of all but he does

01:50:10.240 know things he knows

01:50:11.060 ta'erotica he knows

01:50:11.960 what to care about

01:50:12.920 which is your point

01:50:13.940 and he also knows

01:50:14.920 that the unexamined

01:50:15.780 life is not worth

01:50:17.480 living the life in

01:50:18.540 which you have not

01:50:19.760 tried to

01:50:20.900 because it's

01:50:21.380 well it's unconscious

01:50:22.240 it's unconscious

01:50:23.240 and it's also going

01:50:24.580 to be your agency

01:50:25.680 is going to break

01:50:26.200 down you're making

01:50:26.740 yourself more prey

01:50:27.460 to self-deception

01:50:28.240 you're tyrannical

01:50:29.640 you're going to

01:50:30.120 exactly all of this

01:50:31.300 and so I'm trying

01:50:32.240 to trace out but

01:50:33.700 not just trace out

01:50:34.560 the ideas because

01:50:36.080 Socrates is ultimately

01:50:37.200 about this is

01:50:38.220 what's called third

01:50:39.060 way Platonism the

01:50:40.680 new scholarship

01:50:41.580 Socrates is ultimately

01:50:42.940 about trying to get

01:50:43.820 shift people into

01:50:44.940 the non-propositional

01:50:45.880 because that is

01:50:47.040 ultimately where

01:50:47.600 virtue is cultivated

01:50:48.300 you and I both know

01:50:49.160 you can get these

01:50:50.260 university professors

01:50:51.320 who are highly trained

01:50:52.960 in moral argument

01:50:53.840 and that is in no way

01:50:55.020 predictive of how

01:50:55.880 virtuously they live

01:50:56.840 their lives

01:50:57.320 propositional management

01:50:58.540 is at most

01:50:59.360 a necessary condition

01:51:02.600 for virtue

01:51:03.180 but it is in no way

01:51:04.460 sufficient

01:51:04.840 and you can see

01:51:05.800 Socrates is always

01:51:07.240 challenging two things

01:51:08.420 he's challenging

01:51:09.440 just intuitive pronouncement

01:51:10.880 as to what something is

01:51:11.920 well what is courage

01:51:12.600 I know what courage

01:51:13.720 is blah blah blah

01:51:14.280 and he's also

01:51:15.280 challenging sort of

01:51:16.180 third person

01:51:16.900 right technical definition

01:51:18.880 well I learned this

01:51:19.740 definition

01:51:20.160 but do you

01:51:21.540 do you

01:51:22.620 do you

01:51:22.640 you enact it

01:51:23.400 yes

01:51:23.780 right

01:51:24.100 so he's constantly

01:51:25.040 challenging the first

01:51:25.960 person perspective

01:51:26.800 of just spontaneous

01:51:27.920 subjective authority

01:51:29.480 he's constantly

01:51:30.860 challenging

01:51:31.460 the third person

01:51:32.700 imposing

01:51:33.600 technical authority

01:51:35.340 because he's trying

01:51:36.340 to constantly get us

01:51:37.340 into that second

01:51:37.960 person perspective

01:51:38.780 where we actually

01:51:40.120 enter into the dialogue

01:51:41.340 that trains us

01:51:42.600 for virtue

01:51:43.140 so he

01:51:43.740 you'll get

01:51:44.420 like when he's

01:51:45.640 arguing with the

01:51:46.260 two generals

01:51:46.680 about courage

01:51:47.400 they

01:51:47.920 like one represents

01:51:48.920 this intuitive

01:51:49.560 the other represents

01:51:50.740 he learned all these

01:51:51.720 definitions from the

01:51:52.580 sophist

01:51:53.020 and they're very

01:51:53.460 sophisticated

01:51:54.060 right

01:51:54.340 right

01:51:54.580 right

01:51:54.880 and Socrates

01:51:55.580 undermines both of

01:51:56.520 those

01:51:56.680 and he doesn't

01:51:57.160 come to a conclusion

01:51:58.040 but here's the thing

01:51:59.360 the generals

01:52:00.080 were coming to

01:52:00.840 Socrates

01:52:01.100 because they're

01:52:01.460 asking him

01:52:01.880 where should we

01:52:02.300 take our sons

01:52:02.800 for education

01:52:03.440 because we want

01:52:04.380 them to be

01:52:04.680 courageous

01:52:05.180 there's no conclusion

01:52:06.860 at the dialogue

01:52:07.440 but the generals

01:52:08.060 both generals say

01:52:09.240 we would like

01:52:09.980 our sons to come

01:52:11.240 and learn from you

01:52:12.020 right

01:52:12.300 because Socrates

01:52:13.360 exemplifies

01:52:14.640 the courage

01:52:15.920 in the dialogue

01:52:17.340 you know

01:52:18.200 you see

01:52:18.540 you see something

01:52:19.440 similar happening

01:52:20.460 in the brothers

01:52:21.060 Karamazov

01:52:21.760 because you have

01:52:22.860 Ivan

01:52:23.380 is very

01:52:24.540 able

01:52:26.340 to put forward

01:52:27.740 extremely compelling

01:52:28.840 propositional

01:52:29.540 atheistic arguments

01:52:30.560 right

01:52:31.000 in kind of a

01:52:31.640 Nietzschean spirit

01:52:32.460 in a real sense

01:52:33.280 right

01:52:33.540 and Eliosha

01:52:34.740 who's the

01:52:35.240 monastic novitiate

01:52:36.200 is no match

01:52:37.420 for Ivan

01:52:38.000 on the propositional

01:52:39.000 front

01:52:39.340 but he's a way

01:52:40.260 better person

01:52:41.040 yes

01:52:41.340 and Dostoevsky

01:52:42.440 also explores

01:52:43.180 that in the idiot

01:52:43.960 because that's

01:52:44.900 Prince Mishkin

01:52:45.520 right

01:52:45.760 it's a Christ

01:52:46.440 analog for all

01:52:47.180 intents and purposes

01:52:47.920 right

01:52:48.280 but Dostoevsky

01:52:49.380 because he uses

01:52:50.100 narrative rather

01:52:50.900 than philosophy

01:52:51.580 is able to produce

01:52:52.940 an embodied figure

01:52:54.000 who exemplifies

01:52:54.940 virtue

01:52:55.320 even though

01:52:55.900 the propositional

01:52:57.060 grounds for his

01:52:58.020 moral pronouncements

01:52:59.080 are relatively

01:53:00.040 what undeveloped

01:53:01.640 and I think

01:53:02.000 this is a profound

01:53:02.720 thing

01:53:03.020 and trying to bring

01:53:03.880 that out

01:53:04.460 and then say

01:53:05.560 so what are the

01:53:06.320 practices that you

01:53:07.420 start to

01:53:07.920 oh well

01:53:08.280 so

01:53:09.040 you want to bring

01:53:12.540 it as Socrates

01:53:13.180 was famous

01:53:16.300 for being able

01:53:17.440 to stand

01:53:18.400 in a meditative

01:53:19.620 state

01:53:20.300 transfixed

01:53:21.600 for 24 to 48

01:53:22.920 hours

01:53:23.240 totally

01:53:24.060 right

01:53:25.280 so there's a

01:53:25.820 profound capacity

01:53:27.100 for mindfulness

01:53:28.380 and this is why

01:53:28.940 he famously

01:53:29.520 never got drunk

01:53:30.580 he could drink

01:53:31.280 quite a bit

01:53:32.400 but the mindfulness

01:53:34.160 was like

01:53:35.120 he could stay

01:53:36.240 I wonder how much

01:53:36.980 of that hallucinogenic

01:53:37.900 Greek wine

01:53:38.500 he was consuming

01:53:39.240 while doing all of this

01:53:40.320 that I don't know

01:53:42.040 but he has

01:53:43.420 this tremendous

01:53:44.360 so I start

01:53:45.540 with teaching people

01:53:46.520 about a basic

01:53:47.620 meditative practice

01:53:48.600 that's taking off

01:53:49.860 your mental framing

01:53:50.600 and looking at it

01:53:51.420 seeing what way

01:53:52.840 it might be distorting

01:53:53.640 but how do you know

01:53:54.500 if you've distorted

01:53:55.140 well you have to put

01:53:55.780 your glasses on

01:53:56.440 and see if you now

01:53:57.040 see more clearly

01:53:57.720 or deeply

01:53:58.120 and those are

01:53:58.800 contemplative practices

01:53:59.800 and I take people

01:54:02.100 through a contemplative

01:54:03.300 practice

01:54:03.780 and you take them

01:54:05.380 into a kind of

01:54:06.540 teach them

01:54:07.300 Lectio Divina

01:54:07.980 how to read

01:54:09.160 the platonic text

01:54:10.100 not just for information

01:54:11.700 but how to get

01:54:13.180 into that resonance

01:54:14.060 with it

01:54:14.540 so it will bring

01:54:15.100 about transformation

01:54:16.200 there's a Lectio Divina

01:54:17.620 which is a way

01:54:18.220 of reading

01:54:18.720 and then there's

01:54:19.560 philosophical fellowship

01:54:20.480 where people

01:54:21.060 sort of do a joint

01:54:22.600 kind of Lectio Divina

01:54:23.820 with each other

01:54:24.820 about a philosophical text

01:54:26.120 and you're not trying

01:54:26.980 to is this text

01:54:27.980 right or wrong

01:54:28.700 I'm not saying

01:54:29.440 you should never do that

01:54:30.200 but the point

01:54:30.700 of this practice

01:54:31.300 is no no

01:54:32.000 I want to presence

01:54:33.100 the perspective

01:54:33.840 from which this text

01:54:34.900 was generated

01:54:35.540 so that I can enter

01:54:36.900 into a Vygotskian

01:54:38.040 relationship

01:54:38.620 with that perspective

01:54:39.960 because it will

01:54:40.520 challenge me

01:54:41.180 into a zone

01:54:41.720 of proximal development

01:54:42.980 and then I can

01:54:43.660 practice being

01:54:44.320 in the zone

01:54:44.740 of proximal development

01:54:45.700 as a consequence

01:54:46.480 of engaging

01:54:47.120 in dialogue

01:54:47.480 well that's

01:54:47.980 you know

01:54:48.200 I think one of

01:54:49.180 the things

01:54:49.580 that maybe

01:54:50.540 distinguished me

01:54:51.380 to some degree

01:54:52.040 from my peers

01:54:53.820 let's say

01:54:54.880 my academic peers

01:54:55.780 is that almost

01:54:57.120 every time

01:54:57.880 I read something

01:54:58.880 my goal

01:54:59.980 was to see

01:55:00.780 what I could learn

01:55:01.700 from reading it

01:55:02.680 not to dispense

01:55:03.960 with it

01:55:04.320 like to

01:55:04.720 and I think

01:55:05.420 it's the same

01:55:06.120 position of reverence

01:55:07.380 that you described

01:55:08.140 in relationship

01:55:08.700 to Moses

01:55:09.320 and taking off

01:55:10.080 his shoes

01:55:10.520 it's like

01:55:10.980 I want to find out

01:55:12.480 what's in this

01:55:13.120 I did that with Freud

01:55:14.180 and I did that with Jung

01:55:15.260 and I did that

01:55:15.900 with the biblical corpus

01:55:17.040 not to dispense

01:55:18.260 with it

01:55:18.600 or to argue

01:55:19.200 it out of existence

01:55:20.080 even though testing ideas

01:55:21.320 is important

01:55:21.940 but to be open

01:55:24.160 to whatever

01:55:25.280 might transform me

01:55:26.640 as a consequence

01:55:27.200 of reading the text

01:55:27.240 it's a shift

01:55:27.680 from the adjectival

01:55:28.580 to the adverbial

01:55:29.420 right

01:55:30.260 okay

01:55:30.680 I'm not just

01:55:31.460 so

01:55:31.800 like I've had this

01:55:33.640 many times

01:55:34.040 but one time

01:55:35.200 really profound

01:55:36.060 for me was Spinoza

01:55:37.020 Spinoza's hard

01:55:38.360 Spinoza's like reading

01:55:39.520 Euclid's Elements

01:55:40.460 because it's patterned

01:55:41.180 on Euclid's Elements

01:55:41.820 you know axioms

01:55:43.020 and proofs

01:55:43.600 and theorem

01:55:43.880 and it's the most

01:55:44.600 logically rigorous thing

01:55:46.040 in your er

01:55:46.420 and you're trying

01:55:47.140 to remember

01:55:47.580 all the predicates

01:55:48.480 this and that

01:55:49.180 and then what happens

01:55:50.660 though is you get

01:55:52.120 what he talks about

01:55:52.820 you go from

01:55:53.980 recursive

01:55:54.720 discursive reasoning

01:55:56.240 into what he calls

01:55:57.740 scantia intuitiva

01:55:59.080 you see

01:56:00.240 you get this

01:56:00.840 realization

01:56:01.600 where you see

01:56:02.740 all of the whole

01:56:03.760 in each premise

01:56:04.820 in each premise

01:56:05.460 and all of the whole

01:56:06.120 and then you see

01:56:07.460 all of reality

01:56:08.260 like that

01:56:09.580 and so you see

01:56:11.280 you see Spinozistically

01:56:13.040 you take on

01:56:14.140 Spinoza's perspective

01:56:15.300 rather than

01:56:16.640 remembering his

01:56:17.700 propositions

01:56:18.220 that's what I mean

01:56:19.080 about being

01:56:19.460 yeah well that's

01:56:20.720 that's something like

01:56:21.600 that's something like

01:56:23.000 ancestor worship

01:56:24.000 that's something like

01:56:24.760 inhabiting the spirit

01:56:25.740 of the divine ancestor

01:56:26.760 because what you're

01:56:27.780 trying to do

01:56:28.320 one of the things

01:56:29.060 I loved about

01:56:29.700 university was that

01:56:30.880 it enabled me

01:56:32.040 to select my peers

01:56:33.620 from among

01:56:34.980 the great men of history

01:56:35.980 now I'm not saying

01:56:36.620 I was able to manage that

01:56:37.580 but I at least

01:56:38.000 had that opportunity

01:56:38.920 right and each

01:56:39.980 of those people

01:56:40.720 was animated

01:56:41.480 well I would say

01:56:42.360 by a central

01:56:43.100 in some sense

01:56:44.060 by a central

01:56:44.740 exploratory

01:56:45.540 and benevolent spirit

01:56:46.620 in so far as

01:56:47.460 they were manifestations

01:56:48.200 of logos

01:56:49.080 so this is

01:56:49.980 so you get

01:56:51.780 I'm doing these practices

01:56:52.880 with people that are

01:56:54.160 you know nuns

01:56:55.100 N-O-N-E-S

01:56:55.740 secular

01:56:56.160 but they'll say

01:56:57.780 well that was like

01:56:58.340 a secular seance

01:57:00.140 because I felt like

01:57:01.180 Spinoza was present

01:57:02.400 right right

01:57:02.980 and so what happens

01:57:03.760 is you get

01:57:04.200 you get that

01:57:04.640 we agency

01:57:05.380 you get that

01:57:06.000 you get that

01:57:06.620 you get the

01:57:07.480 the spirit

01:57:08.220 of the distributed

01:57:09.040 cognition

01:57:09.580 that is not

01:57:10.180 reducible

01:57:10.640 to a mere aggregation

01:57:11.960 of individual

01:57:12.820 consciousnesses

01:57:13.620 you get the

01:57:14.340 you get that

01:57:15.300 you get that

01:57:15.860 emergent dynamical

01:57:17.460 like a rock concert

01:57:18.480 yes exactly

01:57:19.360 exactly

01:57:19.880 but you're doing it

01:57:20.540 with intelligibility

01:57:21.380 rather than just

01:57:22.200 salient sounds

01:57:23.060 yeah

01:57:23.280 right

01:57:23.700 and

01:57:24.400 well so that isn't it

01:57:25.520 but that also is

01:57:26.440 we can state

01:57:27.280 pretty forthrightly

01:57:28.300 that that is

01:57:28.940 an experience

01:57:29.840 of a profoundly

01:57:30.620 unifying spirit

01:57:31.560 because if it wasn't

01:57:32.400 people wouldn't be able

01:57:33.260 to inhabit

01:57:33.820 the same conceptual

01:57:35.220 and perceptual space

01:57:36.380 simultaneously

01:57:36.960 so you take people

01:57:37.740 through this progression

01:57:38.740 you get them into that

01:57:39.640 and then you take them

01:57:40.340 into dialectic

01:57:41.040 into dialogos

01:57:41.740 where you actually get them

01:57:42.880 to get that

01:57:43.680 collective flow state

01:57:44.660 around the examination

01:57:45.520 of a virtue

01:57:46.400 and the group

01:57:48.080 acts like

01:57:48.700 and people are

01:57:50.840 shifting roles

01:57:51.320 the group acts

01:57:52.180 like Socrates

01:57:53.120 to the individual

01:57:53.920 and everybody

01:57:54.640 is switching around

01:57:55.600 and what happens

01:57:56.540 is people get

01:57:57.140 this collective spirit

01:57:58.380 the logos

01:57:59.020 shows up

01:57:59.960 the fire

01:58:00.940 of Heracles

01:58:01.620 it kindles

01:58:02.280 and people

01:58:03.060 people are suddenly

01:58:04.620 and what happens

01:58:06.060 is they go from

01:58:06.920 all their propositions

01:58:07.940 about virtue

01:58:08.560 to saying

01:58:09.380 they experience

01:58:10.800 awe

01:58:11.320 and reverence

01:58:12.600 about the virtue

01:58:13.240 and then they also say

01:58:15.160 they'll report

01:58:16.380 this sort of progression

01:58:17.380 of intimacies

01:58:18.040 they'll say

01:58:18.560 I discovered

01:58:20.460 a kind of intimacy

01:58:21.160 with people

01:58:21.660 that I didn't know

01:58:22.340 existed

01:58:22.700 but I've always wanted

01:58:24.220 right

01:58:24.880 it's not friendship

01:58:25.980 it's not sexuality

01:58:27.380 I use the Christian term

01:58:29.140 fellowship

01:58:29.540 it's fellowship

01:58:30.320 right

01:58:30.820 and then

01:58:33.040 they do this neat thing

01:58:34.200 they'll go from

01:58:34.860 you and I

01:58:35.720 are experiencing

01:58:36.360 this kind of intimacy

01:58:37.300 to we all

01:58:38.480 are experiencing

01:58:39.180 intimacy

01:58:39.620 with the logos

01:58:40.340 and then

01:58:41.640 they can also

01:58:43.380 go to

01:58:43.860 you and I

01:58:45.340 intimacy

01:58:46.400 with each other

01:58:47.100 with the logos

01:58:47.780 and all of that

01:58:48.680 is becoming more intimate

01:58:49.760 with being itself

01:58:50.720 let's talk about

01:58:51.360 feeling more connected

01:58:52.500 to it

01:58:52.780 that's dialectic

01:58:53.960 into the logos

01:58:54.540 okay well

01:58:55.100 so if all of you

01:58:56.120 are inclined

01:58:56.900 to be interested

01:58:59.360 in this sort of thing

01:59:00.100 you can go over

01:59:00.660 to John's YouTube channel

01:59:01.800 and follow his series

01:59:03.420 of lectures

01:59:03.860 it's going to launch

01:59:04.560 when?

01:59:05.020 January 9th

01:59:05.680 and just so you all

01:59:07.040 know too

01:59:07.540 some of you may know

01:59:09.760 that I've started

01:59:10.400 this academy

01:59:11.020 with my daughter

01:59:11.840 Peterson Academy

01:59:12.740 which is an attempt

01:59:14.320 to bring

01:59:14.880 humanities

01:59:15.920 and liberal arts

01:59:17.020 education

01:59:17.540 to people on

01:59:18.500 a large scale

01:59:19.120 and we have a lot

01:59:19.840 of professors

01:59:20.440 lined up to help us

01:59:21.700 with that

01:59:22.040 about 30 so far

01:59:23.080 top rate people

01:59:24.740 as far as I'm concerned

01:59:26.440 and John is actually

01:59:27.640 going down to Miami

01:59:28.440 this week

01:59:28.940 to record a series

01:59:30.680 of lectures

01:59:31.180 that will add up

01:59:32.180 to about 8 hours

01:59:32.960 on the sorts of topics

01:59:34.060 that we discussed today

01:59:35.000 exactly

01:59:35.480 exactly

01:59:36.340 so okay

01:59:36.940 so everyone

01:59:37.440 we have to stop

01:59:38.220 unfortunately

01:59:38.800 because we could

01:59:39.480 continue pretty much

01:59:40.320 forever

01:59:40.640 and hopefully will

01:59:42.260 and I'd like to

01:59:43.380 thank all of you

01:59:44.060 for attending

01:59:45.100 and watching

01:59:45.560 and listening today

01:59:46.360 and to encourage you

01:59:47.360 to check out

01:59:47.960 John Vervecki's

01:59:48.960 YouTube channel

01:59:49.760 and to follow

01:59:50.740 his lectures

01:59:51.340 I'm

01:59:52.400 there's no doubt

01:59:54.640 that if you

01:59:55.140 participate

01:59:55.700 in that

01:59:56.740 with some degree

01:59:57.340 of intent

01:59:57.740 that the consequences

01:59:59.060 will be transformative

01:59:59.980 John was

02:00:00.900 and is

02:00:01.900 one of the most

02:00:02.720 popular lecturers

02:00:03.520 that the University

02:00:04.160 of Toronto

02:00:04.620 ever produced

02:00:05.700 and his students

02:00:06.840 were constantly

02:00:07.740 raving to me

02:00:08.460 when I was still there

02:00:09.380 about the

02:00:11.640 transformations

02:00:12.600 they had encountered

02:00:13.380 both intellectually

02:00:14.180 and I would say

02:00:14.960 personally

02:00:15.420 as a consequence

02:00:16.300 of taking

02:00:17.100 John's courses

02:00:17.760 so this is a good deal

02:00:19.140 so go and

02:00:20.560 check that out

02:00:21.560 and I'm going

02:00:22.440 to turn over

02:00:23.000 to the Daily Wire

02:00:23.640 Plus platform now

02:00:24.620 and talk to John

02:00:25.420 more on the

02:00:26.620 biographical level

02:00:27.480 for a while

02:00:28.040 I want to trace

02:00:29.160 the development

02:00:29.820 of his through line

02:00:31.320 through his life

02:00:32.060 which is what I tend

02:00:32.900 to use the extra

02:00:33.700 half an hour for

02:00:34.480 and so for all of you

02:00:35.660 watching and listening

02:00:36.480 happy new year

02:00:37.780 and thank you very much

02:00:38.880 for your time

02:00:39.340 and attention

02:00:39.800 and don't hesitate

02:00:41.680 to check out

02:00:42.460 John Vervecki's

02:00:43.300 YouTube channel

02:00:44.000 ciao

02:00:44.720 thanks John

02:00:45.460 it was great

02:00:46.140 as always

02:00:46.860 hello everyone

02:00:51.620 I would encourage

02:00:52.600 you to continue

02:00:53.300 listening to my

02:00:54.400 conversation

02:00:54.960 with my guest

02:00:55.820 on dailywireplus.com

02:00:58.540 thank you

321. A Conversation So Intense It Might Transcend Time and Space ｜ John Vervaeke

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