The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast - 324. The Protest in Iran and What It Means ｜ Masih Alinejad

00:00:00.960 Hey everyone, real quick before you skip, I want to talk to you about something serious and important.

00:00:06.480 Dr. Jordan Peterson has created a new series that could be a lifeline for those battling depression and anxiety.

00:00:12.740 We know how isolating and overwhelming these conditions can be, and we wanted to take a moment to reach out to those listening who may be struggling.

00:00:20.100 With decades of experience helping patients, Dr. Peterson offers a unique understanding of why you might be feeling this way in his new series.

00:00:27.420 He provides a roadmap towards healing, showing that while the journey isn't easy, it's absolutely possible to find your way forward.

00:00:35.360 If you're suffering, please know you are not alone. There's hope, and there's a path to feeling better.

00:00:41.780 Go to Daily Wire Plus now and start watching Dr. Jordan B. Peterson on depression and anxiety.

00:00:47.460 Let this be the first step towards the brighter future you deserve.

00:00:57.420 Hello everyone.

00:01:10.100 I've been wanting to cover the uprising in Iran for quite a long time and finally made arrangements to do that and have the privilege today of speaking with Mazie Alinejad.

00:01:20.560 She is an Iranian journalist and a rare example of an honest and unwavering reporter.

00:01:27.020 Even more impressive is that she began her career reporting on her own government, taking punishments such as her arrest in 1994 for distributing leaflets with critical views,

00:01:37.300 or her dismissal from her job as a parliamentary reporter in 2005 for publishing an article that called out the parliament,

00:01:44.280 for taking massive bonuses in secret while publicly claiming they had taken pay cuts.

00:01:50.340 In 2018, she released a book, The Wind in My Hair, which was critical of the Iranian government's depiction, expectation, and oppressive treatment of women.

00:02:00.500 She is the founder of the My Stealthy Freedom campaign against compulsory hijab, which since its launch in 2014 has become the largest civil disobedience campaign for women's rights in the history of Islamic Republic. 0.76

00:02:16.140 In 2022, the American Jewish Committee awarded her the Moral Courage Award for speaking out fearlessly in support of the Iranian people who are still being oppressed, to put it mildly, by their own institutions.

00:02:30.500 She currently lives in exile in New York City, under FBI protection, since a coordinated kidnapping attempt by the Islamic Republic of Iran's intelligence ministry was foiled in 2021.

00:02:46.880 Hello, Missy. Thank you very much for agreeing to talk to me today.

00:02:50.720 Thank you so much for having me, Jordan.

00:02:54.320 Yeah, so I don't know, are you a brave person? Are you a foolhardy person?

00:02:58.800 Can you just not control yourself? 0.99

00:03:01.500 Like, you're putting yourself at an awful lot of risk here.

00:03:04.200 And so, like, we'll walk through why that is.

00:03:08.460 And why do you think you're compelled to do that?

00:03:12.180 And it looks like you've been doing that to some degree almost your whole life, right?

00:03:15.500 Even as a very young person.

00:03:17.240 Yeah.

00:03:17.420 So what is it about you that makes you unable to, what would you say, behave properly?

00:03:23.300 That might be a way of thinking about it.

00:03:25.000 That's funny.

00:03:26.560 I mean, when you put it in that way, that maybe you cannot control yourself or you're really brave.

00:03:33.180 This is what my mom used to say that. 0.80

00:03:35.720 Because I remember that in my tiny village, I was a troublemaker.

00:03:40.740 And people were, like, telling me that you cannot control yourself.

00:03:46.240 And that was the way that they were actually describing my, you know, my attitude towards, I've been told all my life what to do, what not to do.

00:03:59.940 So I had two options in my tiny village, to listen to those who make decisions over my body, over my, you know, everything, everything, or to be a rebel.

00:04:13.000 So for me, being brave or being fearless, it's something that I grow up with, you know?

00:04:22.440 Otherwise, I had to feel miserable every single day.

00:04:26.900 Here in America, people might take every single freedom for granted.

00:04:32.400 But I had to fight for every single thing that I have now.

00:04:37.040 Everything.

00:04:38.140 Everything.

00:04:38.620 You know, I had a little brother who was able to jump in the river in my beautiful village, who was able to go to stadium, to play football, to go, you know, everywhere that he wanted, to dance, to sing.

00:04:53.120 Everything.

00:04:54.340 Everything.

00:04:55.360 But I was banned from doing all those activities just because of being a girl.

00:05:00.620 So that's why I had to fight for every single thing, and I had to be brave, you know?

00:05:08.720 Yeah, well, it is clear that most people under those conditions will submit to being obedient and to stay silent, and certainly that's been the case in Iran for 30 years, almost 25 years anyway since the revolution.

00:05:26.780 And although, obviously, more and more women are speaking out now, and of course, more and more Iranians in general, but the run-of-the-mill situation after the revolution was that most women bore their, what would you say, forced submission in something approximating silence.

00:05:46.900 And so, and that is the normal run of things, and I do think there is something temperamental about it.

00:05:52.740 I mean, when you, when I read your, the accounts of your childhood, it's pretty obvious that right from the beginning, you were a hard person to push down.

00:06:02.120 And, and it's very interesting to see how different people react under different situations.

00:06:07.380 Do you want to walk us through the, your origins and talk about your early life a bit so that everybody understands where you came from and what your life was like?

00:06:16.300 So, and we'll, we'll, we'll talk about that in parallel with the political situation in Iran.

00:06:21.620 Sure.

00:06:21.860 I mean, to be honest, I don't think Iranian women can be, like, obedient at all. 1.00

00:06:32.120 Women in the Middle East, I mean, all of them, they are rebel because to us, it's the way to get our dignity back, our identity back. 1.00

00:06:45.620 There is a famous saying, actually, in Persian that if you want Iranian women to do something, tell them not to do. 0.93

00:06:54.240 So anyway, we'll practice our civil disobedience.

00:06:57.260 And look, I was only two years old when the Islamic revolution happened.

00:07:03.660 I remember I used to actually challenging my parents that why you overthrew the regime?

00:07:09.620 And they were saying that because of poverty, we wanted to have a good life.

00:07:15.840 And now what happened?

00:07:18.700 Poor or getting poorer every day?

00:07:21.480 And the corruption, I mean, only the relative of the mullahs are getting richer. 0.88

00:07:26.880 And I was actually challenging my fellow journalists, activists, editors that why did you overthrow the regime?

00:07:35.900 Why did you were part of the revolution?

00:07:38.260 And they were saying that because we wanted to gain more political freedom.

00:07:43.440 What happened?

00:07:44.420 The Islamic revolution became a revolution against women. 0.98

00:07:48.180 So clearly, we lost all the freedom that we already had.

00:07:52.220 Like women were allowed to go to a stadium. 1.00

00:07:54.240 Women were allowed to choose whether they want to wear hijab or not. 1.00

00:07:57.820 Women were allowed to choose any kind of sports that they wanted to join. 0.86

00:08:02.980 We had female judges. 1.00

00:08:05.660 We had female ministers. 1.00

00:08:08.000 We had female singers. 0.99

00:08:10.000 Jordan, in 21st century, now women are not allowed to sing.

00:08:14.140 So you see, we didn't gain any political freedom, but we lost all the social freedom that we already had.

00:08:22.680 So that is why for women in Iran, every single day, it's like you are part of the war that has been imposed on us by the clerics, by the mullahs, by the Islamic Republic.

00:08:41.400 And it's not a fair battle.

00:08:43.900 It's not a fair war because they have guns and bullets.

00:08:46.420 They have power, prison, money.

00:08:48.540 They can execute you.

00:08:49.680 We only have our body. 0.53

00:08:52.060 We only have our voice.

00:08:54.940 We only have our social media.

00:08:57.500 And I had to use every single thing, like my body, my voice, my hair, my social media, to fight them back.

00:09:06.660 So that is why I don't think Iranian women or women in the Middle East, women in Afghanistan, as you see right now, can accept everything. 0.98

00:09:15.460 I mean, our body became like a political platform for Taliban, Islamic Republic, and ISIS, and they write their own ideology on our body, and we have to carry it every day.

00:09:25.120 We don't accept that.

00:09:26.720 So that is why this isn't our nature.

00:09:28.540 Let's walk through the situation in 1979.

00:09:33.280 So I'm about 20 years older than you, I believe, and so I can remember a lot of what happened in that period.

00:09:39.080 And in the West, the state that was run by the Shah of Iran was very unpopular, especially among left-wing activists.

00:09:48.780 They regarded it as a corrupt petro-state and believed that the Shah was fundamentally an oppressive autocrat.

00:09:55.540 And certainly by Western standards, his government could have been radically improved.

00:10:01.300 But the consequences of the Iranian revolution, as you pointed out, were certainly not what anyone had hoped for,

00:10:08.720 except the tiny minority of people who actually instigated the revolution.

00:10:11.880 And so the world went, in relationship to Iran, from an autocracy that was much more liberal in the manner that you describe,

00:10:23.360 especially in relationship to women, and where a fair bit of economic progress had been made,

00:10:29.100 despite the flaws of the regime, to an unbelievably repressive theocratic state.

00:10:33.820 And one of the things that you point out is that one of the elements of this Islamic revolution,

00:10:40.540 a peculiar element, was the focus of repression on women. 0.58

00:10:44.780 And so I'm very curious about that.

00:10:46.940 What do you think it was about the doctrine that drove the Iranian revolution,

00:10:53.060 that caused the primary consequence, perhaps, or arguably at least,

00:10:57.800 the primary consequence to be the large-scale elimination of women from almost every form of freedom? 1.00

00:11:08.060 What was it about the doctrine that produced that?

00:11:10.580 Yeah, it's not only about women.

00:11:13.060 Let me actually give you an example about how minority being oppressed right after the revolution,

00:11:19.280 mass executions happened.

00:11:20.820 And I remember that when the Jews were being executed,

00:11:24.600 people were saying that right after the revolution, that we're not Jews,

00:11:28.240 so we're not going to get involved.

00:11:30.460 Then Baha'i minority got executed. 1.00

00:11:34.140 Look, Ibrahim Raisi, the butcher of Iran, who is now the president, 0.99

00:11:38.460 which we don't call it president, but he's in charge.

00:11:42.500 He was the one actually who ordered massacre, mass executions.

00:11:47.420 More than 5,000 people got executed by his order.

00:11:51.660 You know, and then women, and then women, you know. 1.00

00:11:56.420 So it's just, it's very heartbreaking.

00:11:58.560 I cannot even believe that.

00:12:00.380 I'm sitting here in 21st century and talking to you and telling you the same person who ordered mass executions

00:12:07.840 right after the revolution, the Islamic revolution,

00:12:10.980 was the one welcomed here at the United Nations.

00:12:15.140 I cannot believe that because he is actually the one right now, right now,

00:12:22.300 saying that the young political prisoners, the young protesters who were peacefully protesting

00:12:29.420 over the brutal death of Mahsa Amini, the 20-year-old girl who got killed

00:12:34.600 because of a little bit of her hair, was visible. 0.99

00:12:37.280 Now, all those protesters are in prison and Ibrahim Raisi saying that we're going to be tough with them.

00:12:45.780 They have to, you know, see the punishment.

00:12:50.000 So you see, this, I mean, back to like 40 years ago,

00:12:55.760 the whole world was supporting the revolution.

00:12:59.800 They were like actually congratulating the Islamic Republic right after the regime was overthrown.

00:13:08.240 But now, many people, they're blessing the, you know, the Shah of Iran in the streets.

00:13:15.260 And many people believe that, yes, of course there was something like should be reformed,

00:13:21.440 but not revolution, you know.

00:13:24.540 But now we need a revolution.

00:13:27.140 Many people in the West saying that, you know, buying actually,

00:13:31.020 buying the wrong narrative of the Islamic Republic and its lobbyists and apologists

00:13:35.940 and saying that, let's wait for the reform.

00:13:38.860 No, this is the time.

00:13:41.260 We need a revolution because the Islamic Republic acting like an ISIS, like ISIS. 0.99

00:13:47.040 I mean, to millions of Iranian people, women, minority,

00:13:52.600 Islamic Republic is an ISIS with oil. 0.99

00:13:57.140 ISIS just behead people. 1.00

00:14:00.420 The Islamic Republic hang people. 0.69

00:14:03.720 ISIS took hostages, like, you know, this is what the Islamic Republic did 40 years ago 0.93

00:14:10.000 when they took American diplomats hostage.

00:14:13.160 Yes, of course they released them all, but they still, they still having women like hostage.

00:14:18.940 We are, we are like hostage in the hand of the Islamic Republic. 1.00

00:14:23.300 If we don't cover ourselves, we won't be able to get any kind of education or job,

00:14:28.620 or we won't exist if we don't cover our hair in Iran in 21st century.

00:14:35.720 So it means the Islamic Republic took the whole nation, took Iran hostage. 0.90

00:14:41.280 So you see, this is ISIS, and we have to understand that in 21st century, we have to overthrow this regime.

00:14:49.220 A lot of what you write about in the early part of your book, that's the wind in my hair,

00:14:56.040 is the increasing range of restrictions that you experienced as you grew up.

00:15:01.620 You talk about when you were quite young, playing with your brother and having a reasonable amount of freedom

00:15:07.500 when you were extremely young, but then as you grew up and became more conscious as well,

00:15:12.920 the number of things that you couldn't do started to increase, and your range of options started to decrease.

00:15:18.760 And so maybe we could walk through that.

00:15:21.000 And I'm also curious, what do you think drives the antipathy towards female freedom 0.89

00:15:28.500 that characterizes the Iranian state?

00:15:30.600 Do you see the roots of that in something that's formerly religious,

00:15:36.180 or do you see that as something more associated with,

00:15:39.200 I don't even know how to understand it exactly,

00:15:41.320 with a particular kind of man's terror of female attractiveness?

00:15:47.840 It's very mysterious to me that there's a whole culture predicated now,

00:15:52.380 predicated on the oppression of its own women.

00:15:55.980 It's like, you're so afraid of your women,

00:15:58.320 are you, what, are you afraid they're going to leave you,

00:15:59.820 or are you afraid they're not going to be attracted to you,

00:16:01.820 have to control every bloody thing they do?

00:16:03.920 And how did you develop a theory like that?

00:16:06.280 And you said there was some of that in your own family,

00:16:09.320 as your father wasn't exactly an advocate for female freedom.

00:16:12.300 Yeah, it's linked to religion.

00:16:15.320 It is a religious dictatorship to me and millions of other people.

00:16:20.320 About my own family, my mom was able to choose what she wanted to wear before the revolution,

00:16:26.980 and I remember she was wearing colorful dress, colorful scarf,

00:16:31.480 but immediately after the revolution, when you see her picture, you get shocked.

00:16:37.440 I could only see my mom's nose, that's all.

00:16:41.440 I mean, she was all black. 0.98

00:16:43.340 So you see, that was the religious government. 0.96

00:16:47.900 They took everything away from us,

00:16:51.820 and they made men like the owner of the women in their family. 1.00

00:16:57.460 So it's not, I mean, for years and years,

00:17:00.120 I've been hearing that people saying that this is part of the Middle Eastern people's culture,

00:17:06.740 like wearing hijab or not going to stadium or not dancing, not singing.

00:17:11.920 This is part of your culture.

00:17:13.340 It's not.

00:17:14.020 It is the culture of a religious dictatorship.

00:17:18.340 So for millions of Iranians who experienced Sharia laws,

00:17:23.840 it's very clear that the Islamic Republic, right after the revolution,

00:17:29.200 tried to control the whole society through women. 1.00

00:17:33.000 And that is why they use our body like their own political platform to write their manifest on it.

00:17:39.440 See Afghanistan right now.

00:17:42.200 What is the main, main picture of Afghanistan, which was, you know, being takeover by Taliban?

00:17:50.320 Covering women's face. 0.82

00:17:52.360 What was the main image of women when they got, Yazidi women, when they got free from ISIS? 0.64

00:17:58.820 You remember?

00:17:59.980 The picture of women burning the compulsory veiling. 0.94

00:18:03.220 So you see, for us, it's not about a small piece of cloth when we talk about compulsory hijab.

00:18:11.200 Compulsory hijab is like the main pillar of religious dictatorship. 1.00

00:18:16.200 It's like, as I always say, it's like the Berlin Wall, you know?

00:18:20.800 And that is why the Islamic Republic really, like, not willing to let it go. 0.99

00:18:28.580 You know, they'd rather kill teenagers, but they don't want to actually say that we're going to get rid of morality police.

00:18:35.580 We're going to get rid of compulsory hijab. 1.00

00:18:37.780 Because they know that we, the women of Iran, are not just fighting to get rid of morality police or compulsory hijab.

00:18:45.040 We see this compulsory hijab like it's in the DNA of religious dictatorship. 1.00

00:18:52.320 It's in the DNA of a gender apartheid regime. 0.73

00:18:55.720 So for us, clearly, we want to get, we want separation between religion and politics.

00:19:04.520 And this is 21st century, and I don't think this is too much to ask.

00:19:07.600 Well, okay, so there's the Sharia law issue, there's the religious issue, then there's a psychological issue that I want to delve into momentarily to see if we can sort these things out a little bit.

00:19:18.720 It's still a mystery to me in some regard, because it would, it appears to me, and this is maybe just my Western liberal bias,

00:19:26.260 that the optimal relationship between a man and a woman is one of, well, first of all, it's voluntary.

00:19:31.500 And second of all, there's an element of playfulness about it, if it's running optimally, right?

00:19:37.460 So there's love and playfulness and care and all that associated with it.

00:19:40.800 But the most relevant part of all of that is the fact that it's a voluntary association.

00:19:47.600 And that's part of what makes it both tolerable for both parties and maybe enjoyable for both parties.

00:19:53.500 But it's also something that speaks to the heart of the proper social contract in relationship to long-term, well, to any long-term arrangement between men and women.

00:20:08.760 So then I'm trying to think about what it has to be like to be a man who believes that women have to be controlled in this manner.

00:20:15.440 And it has to be, and this is psychologically speaking, it has to be something like the belief that unless you police women entirely, in all of their...

00:20:24.720 Going online without ExpressVPN is like not paying attention to the safety demonstration on a flight.

00:20:30.180 Most of the time, you'll probably be fine.

00:20:32.300 But what if one day that weird yellow mask drops down from overhead and you have no idea what to do?

00:20:38.020 In our hyper-connected world, your digital privacy isn't just a luxury.

00:20:41.780 It's a fundamental right.

00:20:42.980 Every time you connect to an unsecured network in a cafe, hotel, or airport, you're essentially broadcasting your personal information to anyone with a technical know-how to intercept it.

00:20:52.460 And let's be clear, it doesn't take a genius hacker to do this.

00:20:55.660 With some off-the-shelf hardware, even a tech-savvy teenager could potentially access your passwords, bank logins, and credit card details.

00:21:03.040 Now, you might think, what's the big deal?

00:21:05.160 Who'd want my data anyway?

00:21:06.700 Well, on the dark web, your personal information could fetch up to $1,000.

00:21:10.560 That's right, there's a whole underground economy built on stolen identities.

00:21:15.380 Enter ExpressVPN.

00:21:17.120 It's like a digital fortress, creating an encrypted tunnel between your device and the internet.

00:21:21.820 Their encryption is so robust that it would take a hacker with a supercomputer over a billion years to crack it.

00:21:27.460 But don't let its power fool you.

00:21:29.180 ExpressVPN is incredibly user-friendly.

00:21:31.620 With just one click, you're protected across all your devices.

00:21:34.660 Phones, laptops, tablets, you name it.

00:21:36.740 That's why I use ExpressVPN whenever I'm traveling or working from a coffee shop.

00:21:40.840 It gives me peace of mind knowing that my research, communications, and personal data are shielded from prying eyes.

00:21:46.960 Secure your online data today by visiting expressvpn.com slash jordan.

00:21:51.700 That's E-X-P-R-E-S-S-V-P-N dot com slash jordan.

00:21:55.600 And you can get an extra three months free.

00:21:58.080 ExpressVPN dot com slash jordan.

00:21:59.960 Behaviors, especially anything that might be attractive on the sexual front,

00:22:07.840 that they'll want nothing to do with you and they're completely untrustworthy.

00:22:13.400 It has to be something like that because if you leave women to their own devices, 1.00

00:22:16.960 well then they're not going to have anything to do with you

00:22:19.000 and they're going to flaunt their wares, so to speak, to other men and everything will fall apart.

00:22:23.700 And I can't really imagine a more cowardly attitude towards women than that. 1.00

00:22:30.720 The attitude is, unless you tell them what to do all the time, 0.91

00:22:33.560 they're going to have nothing to do with you and run off. 1.00

00:22:35.780 Yeah, it's utterly pathetic. 0.99

00:22:37.900 And I don't think that's exactly religious. 0.99

00:22:40.040 It seems to me to be, in some real sense, it's even deeper than religious.

00:22:44.400 It's this appallingly second-rate psychology of some notion of the relationship between men and women,

00:22:52.320 unless it's based on strict control and power, there's no possibility of an optimal relationship

00:22:57.340 because women are untrustworthy and they're sexually provocative 1.00

00:23:00.260 and they'll just run off on you if you don't police every bloody thing they do. 1.00

00:23:04.640 And that's so pathetic. 0.98

00:23:05.960 And if that's the basis of your entire polity, 0.99

00:23:08.620 which is the point you're making with regards to the hijab,

00:23:10.900 you can't see that a political society like that could be anything but ultimately repressive.

00:23:18.480 Of course.

00:23:19.240 Look, but at the end of the day, in my country, Iran, in Afghanistan, in the Middle East,

00:23:26.460 we see that if the religion leave men alone, leave women alone, 0.81

00:23:34.140 we know how to handle our life.

00:23:37.000 We know how to deal with any kind of discrimination if we see through culture

00:23:42.500 or through men among our family controlling us.

00:23:46.840 But when the law is actually promoting violence and calling men to be the owner of women,

00:23:56.020 then it's getting worse and difficult, you know.

00:23:59.000 So I remember that for years and years, Iranian regime actually brainwashed the whole society, 1.00

00:24:11.840 especially through educational system, educating young boys that you are the owner of your sister.

00:24:18.720 So when we grow up in such society, for instance, we're being told that men, according to Sharia law,

00:24:28.280 can marry four wives.

00:24:31.080 They can have as much as women that they want. 0.96

00:24:34.320 And, oh my God, women cannot, I mean, as a woman, if you show your hair, it's a crime. 1.00

00:24:43.820 But men are allowed to actually do whatever they want to do. 0.99

00:24:50.300 And in the name of honor, men, father can kill his daughter. 0.82

00:24:56.440 I mean, these are facts that I'm telling you, like a girl in Iran who removed her hijab,

00:25:02.260 Sabah Kordafshari, received 24 years prison sentence just because of removing her hijab in Iran.

00:25:08.340 But a father who actually beheaded his daughter received only eight years prison sentence.

00:25:16.620 So here, clearly, we're talking about Sharia laws actually allowing men to control women, to own women. 0.72

00:25:27.680 So as a feminist, I believe that in my country, men are very progressive.

00:25:34.500 I see that how men now are walking in the street toward morality police,

00:25:39.780 towards security forces with open arms and saying that we are ready to die,

00:25:46.420 but we are now going to leave our sisters who are fighting for their dignity.

00:25:50.580 So the society of men are more progressive than the law, the establishment.

00:25:56.000 And that's very, very frustrating that you see that through educational system, 0.99

00:26:01.120 we're being told that, hey, you can kill your sister.

00:26:04.100 But now, the same men are shouting in the street, like, 0.99

00:26:11.400 saying that we rather die, but not live with humiliation.

00:26:20.420 Because men think that this is an insult to them.

00:26:24.200 When the whole world, like, actually saying,

00:26:27.080 like, this is your culture, Iranian men cannot control themselves. 1.00

00:26:30.440 They can get excited if they see men's, women's unveiled, women's hair, women's body.

00:26:38.420 This is an insult to men.

00:26:41.420 And to be honest, I'm very proud of, like, Iranian men and women now,

00:26:46.920 shoulder to shoulder, saying that we want to get rid of this religious dictatorship 0.96

00:26:52.480 because it's not just an insult to women. 0.81

00:26:55.320 This is an insult to men as well.

00:26:57.920 And that scares the Iranian regime.

00:27:00.440 So you started to really work as a political activist when you weren't a very old teenager, eh?

00:27:08.880 You started writing pamphlets and meeting politically.

00:27:12.600 How old were you when you started doing that?

00:27:14.520 Like, you left your village, if I remember the story correctly,

00:27:17.100 you left your small village and went off to school.

00:27:19.720 How old were you when you started to become politically active?

00:27:22.500 I mean, when you say that you left your village, it just breaks my heart.

00:27:25.840 Because I got kicked out from everywhere.

00:27:29.140 I never had a choice.

00:27:34.540 I got kicked out from everywhere just because of wanting to have dignity and freedom.

00:27:43.020 First, I got kicked out from high school just because of, you know, spreading pamphlets.

00:27:48.760 Then I got kicked out from my village because it was a scandal.

00:27:53.660 As a woman, I was the first one who got divorced.

00:27:57.500 I was the first one who got kicked out from Iranian parliament.

00:28:01.380 I was the first one who got pregnant before officially, like, being married.

00:28:09.660 And that was a huge scandal, you know.

00:28:11.840 And in my village, I don't have any space to stay because it was not easy for my parents.

00:28:18.280 I was really a scandal for all my family.

00:28:21.940 And then I became a columnist.

00:28:25.740 Oh, my God, no.

00:28:26.780 I became a parliamentary journalist.

00:28:29.340 I got kicked out from Iranian parliament just because of exposing the corruption, you know. 1.00

00:28:34.460 You receive a word if you do that in America.

00:28:37.860 If you publish the payslips, the salary that the member of the parliament received, you will be, you know, appreciated.

00:28:47.080 You receive a word.

00:28:48.020 I got kicked out from Iranian parliament.

00:28:50.460 At the end, I got kicked out from my homeland, Iran, because, you know, I had two options.

00:28:58.460 To stay in my country and impose self-censorship on myself and just stay quiet or leave Iran and be loud. 0.89

00:29:05.960 You know, Jordan, I remember that I was a naughty girl and troublemaker in my village.

00:29:11.020 My mom used to say that when your uncle, aunties, everyone were around, you were making noise.

00:29:16.900 Your father was just kicking out from the room.

00:29:19.480 But you were able to find a window and sneak into the same room.

00:29:24.960 So my government kicked me out from everywhere.

00:29:28.020 But I was able to find my window to sneak to my homeland. 0.63

00:29:31.640 And now my window is my social media, you know.

00:29:34.820 Well, they kicked me out from Iran, but they couldn't take Iran away from me. 0.80

00:29:41.900 Through my social media, I'm there.

00:29:45.560 I have, like, more than 10 million followers, more than the Ayatollahs altogether.

00:29:51.620 And I'm not an actress.

00:29:52.960 I'm not a model.

00:29:54.060 I'm just giving voice to voiceless people.

00:29:56.560 And I'm being in touch with them every day.

00:29:59.080 So clearly, yes, I didn't leave Iran.

00:30:04.960 They kicked me out.

00:30:06.780 But I am there every day.

00:30:08.720 As a teenager in a very small village, poor family, I had black and white TV.

00:30:14.880 I was the one watching mullahs, telling me what to do, how to think, what kind of lifestyle to follow. 1.00

00:30:22.640 But now, all those mullahs, through their own TV, they're watching me. 1.00

00:30:29.460 And they know me by my name.

00:30:31.620 Now, you were also the target of a kidnap plot, I understand, that was orchestrated by the Iranian government.

00:30:38.280 Or at least that's the theory.

00:30:39.960 So do you want to talk about that a little bit?

00:30:41.600 Yes, because that actually shows you that when we, the people of Iran, are fighting against mullahs, we are not just fighting for ourselves.

00:30:51.440 Here, in America, miles away from Iran, I was not safe. 1.00

00:30:56.060 I was the target of the Islamic Republic. 1.00

00:30:58.340 Yes, if it was not the FBI stopping the kidnapping plot, I would have been in Iran and executed. 0.67

00:31:05.460 Like many other activists, just, you know, maybe Americans, maybe your audiences, maybe people here, when they listen to this story, they think it's like part of fiction.

00:31:16.940 I mean, kidnapping American citizen or trying to assassinate American citizen on U.S. soil.

00:31:24.260 For you, maybe it's like Hollywood movie or fiction book.

00:31:28.880 But for us, it's the reality. 0.66

00:31:33.020 Assassinating, kidnapping, executing is in the DNA of the Islamic Republic. 1.00

00:31:38.400 And millions of Iranian families, they experienced this just two years ago.

00:31:44.080 Iranian regime did the same.

00:31:45.560 They actually took one of the journalists from France to Iraq.

00:31:50.960 They kidnapped him from Iraq to Iran.

00:31:53.360 And they executed him.

00:31:55.280 Ruhollah Zam, father of two children.

00:31:57.860 And so that could have happened to me.

00:32:00.620 And actually, I remember then when the FBI came to my house and they said that this time was not about kidnapping.

00:32:09.700 This time the guy with loaded gun was arrested in front of your house.

00:32:15.860 I was shocked.

00:32:17.400 I was like, wow, here in America.

00:32:21.520 I'm not, don't get me wrong.

00:32:22.800 I'm not scared of my life at all.

00:32:25.040 But it is scary that you see that the Iranian regime dare to challenge the U.S. authorities on their soil. 0.71

00:32:33.400 That's a scary happening in front of the eyes of free world that the Iranian regime tried to kill, you know, people abroad. 0.97

00:32:41.940 So why aren't you afraid?

00:32:46.540 To be honest, I don't want to say that I'm not afraid at all.

00:32:51.140 Because, look, it's not just about me.

00:32:53.080 It's about my stepchildren.

00:32:55.020 It's about my husband.

00:32:56.580 It's about my neighbors.

00:32:57.620 My beautiful neighbors in Brooklyn.

00:33:00.080 Of course I'm scared of their lives as well.

00:33:02.440 Like, imagine, imagine if the guy had opened fire in Brooklyn.

00:33:08.620 How many of my neighbors would have been killed?

00:33:11.540 It is scary.

00:33:12.580 But I'm not scared of my life because, to be honest, I have only one life.

00:33:20.120 I love the way that I scared that regime.

00:33:23.640 I don't have guns and bullets.

00:33:24.900 You see that.

00:33:25.480 I'm a very tiny woman.

00:33:26.560 I'm even cold here.

00:33:28.200 I couldn't, like, protect myself from a cold here.

00:33:32.180 But, look, they're scared of me.

00:33:35.860 They're scared of me. 0.99

00:33:36.940 And that's why they sent people here to kill me. 0.95

00:33:39.740 So that gives me power, you know.

00:33:42.040 And there is no difference between my life and the life of teenagers in Iran.

00:33:46.920 I see that teenagers posting on their social media and saying that I'm not sure whether I'm going to come back home or not.

00:33:56.960 Oh, my God.

00:33:59.940 When teenagers are getting killed, I go to their social media and I read their posts.

00:34:06.440 Some of them post on their story unbelievably brave, saying that this might be the last day of my life.

00:34:18.520 But the good day will come.

00:34:21.120 Maybe I'm not alive.

00:34:23.060 You laugh on behalf of me.

00:34:24.840 I see that teenagers writing on their social media that this land, Iran, didn't give me anything, but I give my life, my head, to free this land from mullahs. 1.00

00:34:40.460 These are not me saying that.

00:34:42.200 Teenagers writing these words and going to the streets and facing guns and bullets.

00:34:47.560 Then you tell me what is different between me and them.

00:34:50.240 And I see them and I tell myself, I have only one life.

00:34:55.400 I don't want to live, like, miserable and being scared and living paranoia.

00:35:02.960 No.

00:35:04.340 My heroes are women of Iran, men in Iran, facing guns and bullets and saying that we're not going to live under humiliation.

00:35:13.380 So that's why I'm not as scared of my life.

00:35:16.500 So when you talk about the Iranian political state post-revolution, post-1979, you describe a society that sounds like the radical leftist caricature of Western society, right?

00:35:32.820 It's intensely patriarchal, it's extremely misogynistic, it's anti-woman, it's repressive, it's hierarchical.

00:35:41.400 All the power is aggregated into the hands of a very small minority of people.

00:35:45.600 And that's the reality on the ground in Iran.

00:35:48.620 And that's not the reality in the U.S. and in the Western world.

00:35:51.760 But the West is often accused of that.

00:35:55.140 What sort of response have you got from the progressive side of the political spectrum in the U.S.

00:36:01.600 in relationship to the sorts of claims that you're making about the Iranian state?

00:36:06.700 To be honest, it was a long road.

00:36:12.860 We passed the time that we've been ignored for years and years.

00:36:18.460 For years and years, the progressive and left were quite lost when I was saying that compulsory hijab is not part of our culture.

00:36:33.160 When I was saying that as a woman who grew up under Sharia laws, I have the right to be scared of Islamic ideology. 1.00

00:36:42.800 For years and years, I have been ignored by many people in the West saying that you're causing Islamophobia when you talk about compulsory hijab.

00:36:52.140 But to be honest, now, because of the bravery of Iranian people within the society making awareness,

00:37:00.360 because finally I see that the media, left, liberal, progressive, celebrities, feminists, finally are hearing us.

00:37:14.300 Finally, we are being heard.

00:37:15.580 I mean, recently when I saw that CNN covered a story of Iran's new revolution, 0.63

00:37:22.120 exposing that how women are getting raped in prison. 0.98

00:37:26.660 I was sitting in my house watching the news.

00:37:30.400 I was crying.

00:37:31.920 But at the same time, I was really proud that finally my people in Iran made the whole world to hear them,

00:37:44.180 to understand that this is a feminist revolution being supported by men in Iran,

00:37:51.640 and the Western liberal, the Western feminists are paying attention to this, finally. 1.00

00:37:59.280 So I really appreciate that now, especially when I see that because of the pressure from celebrities,

00:38:06.100 from media, from activists, from feminists, finally, the leaders of democratic countries are changing their tone as well.

00:38:16.320 But of course we need more.

00:38:17.900 Of course we need actions.

00:38:19.920 Now all we see that Biden administration are changing their tone.

00:38:25.080 They actually took the leadership to kick out the Islamic Republic from a United Nations top women body. 0.61

00:38:32.160 Starting a business can be tough, but thanks to Shopify, running your online storefront is easier than ever.

00:38:39.400 Shopify is the global commerce platform that helps you sell at every stage of your business.

00:38:43.660 From the launch your online shop stage, all the way to the did we just hit a million orders stage,

00:38:48.620 Shopify is here to help you grow.

00:38:50.780 Our marketing team uses Shopify every day to sell our merchandise,

00:38:53.920 and we love how easy it is to add more items, ship products, and track conversions.

00:38:58.000 With Shopify, customize your online store to your style with flexible templates and powerful tools,

00:39:04.040 alongside an endless list of integrations and third-party apps like on-demand printing, accounting, and chatbots.

00:39:10.260 Shopify helps you turn browsers into buyers with the internet's best converting checkout,

00:39:14.560 up to 36% better compared to other leading e-commerce platforms.

00:39:18.620 No matter how big you want to grow, Shopify gives you everything you need to take control

00:39:22.460 and take your business to the next level.

00:39:24.380 Sign up for a $1 per month trial period at shopify.com slash jbp, all lowercase.

00:39:30.980 Go to shopify.com slash jbp now to grow your business, no matter what stage you're in.

00:39:36.260 That's shopify.com slash jbp.

00:39:41.700 And I was like sitting in my house and I was like, wow, this is happening.

00:39:46.380 This is happening.

00:39:47.280 Because just two years ago, when four democratic countries voted for the Islamic Republic 0.96

00:39:54.100 to have a seat on women's top body at the United Nations, we, the women of Iran, were alone.

00:40:00.380 We were alone.

00:40:01.180 We were shocked.

00:40:02.000 We were like, how come you're voting for a country that do not even allow women to be their true self? 0.66

00:40:09.160 Just being our true self is a crime.

00:40:11.140 And you're voting for our oppressors to monitor women's rights globally? 0.69

00:40:17.460 It's like voting for Taliban to monitor human rights globally. 0.77

00:40:24.020 But now, it's just unbelievable that the U.S. government took leadership to kick out the Islamic Republic from United Nations.

00:40:32.460 But this is just the beginning.

00:40:35.960 This is just the beginning.

00:40:37.600 We need more.

00:40:38.640 Well, so there's a couple of mysteries there.

00:40:42.640 I mean, one you just pointed to.

00:40:44.480 We can expand on that a little bit.

00:40:46.480 I mean, I don't know if there's anything more preposterous that's happened internationally,

00:40:51.000 although that's a hard contest, than the U.N.'s decision to appoint Iran or to allow Iran to have a permanent seat,

00:40:59.680 hypothetically permanent seat, on the international body that was fundamentally responsible for the monitoring

00:41:06.240 and regulation, let's say, of women's rights. 1.00

00:41:09.340 So we have a mystery there.

00:41:10.620 It's like that's so utterly preposterous that it's almost impossible to believe that the West ever agreed to it to begin with.

00:41:18.000 And then we have another mystery underneath that, which is that it's been an uphill battle for you and for the people who are fighting for freedom in Iran

00:41:25.340 to convince the more progressive end of the spectrum, including Western feminists, 1.00

00:41:29.940 that the regime that you're fighting against has all the hallmarks of the terrible patriarchy that hypothetically they oppose.

00:41:36.640 And so what in the world is the reason that, well, first of all, that there's been this pro-Iranian mullah sentiment in the West,

00:41:44.920 which is almost completely incomprehensible, and then allied with that this completely, what would you call it,

00:41:52.820 willful blindness on the part of Western feminists for like 30 years with regards to the crimes against women that had been occurring in Iran. 0.96

00:42:00.500 Like, how do you account for that?

00:42:02.280 I mean, it was heartbreaking for me.

00:42:04.520 Not for me, for women in Afghanistan right now. 0.91

00:42:07.900 Right now, girls are being kicked out from school just because of being girls. 1.00

00:42:15.480 Women are being kicked out from university.

00:42:18.280 But still we don't see in the West, like, women take to the streets. 0.99

00:42:25.920 Like, you know, there was a campaign called Bring Our Girls Back.

00:42:29.200 When I remember when Michelle Obama actually launched that campaign, I was like, this is the U.S. that I have been dreaming to live.

00:42:39.900 When Women's March happened here in America, I was like, yes, I was part of the Women's March.

00:42:46.120 I took to the streets and I was calling my fellow activists in Iran with joy, saying that I cannot believe.

00:42:54.340 I'm shouting my body, my choice, without getting arrested, without getting harassed, without being bullied in the street, without being killed, without being killed.

00:43:07.620 I was like, oh my God, this is the America that I, you know, had dreamed to live.

00:43:12.700 But suddenly I was shocked that when I am saying my body, my choice, the same feminists go to my country and they wear hijab in front of the Islamic Republic. 1.00

00:43:28.420 Not even going to my country.

00:43:30.840 Here in the West, my God.

00:43:34.040 Here in the West, some of the female politicians, the U.S. envoy for Afghanistan, wore hijab in front of Taliban in the West. 0.99

00:43:46.200 Why?

00:43:47.340 I don't get that.

00:43:49.200 I don't get that.

00:43:50.100 So that's why maybe I'm really appreciative now when I see finally the young girls and teenagers risk their lives.

00:43:59.540 They paid huge price to make the whole world, especially the global feminist movement, to understand that this is the time, that you have to recognize this revolution, which is taking place in Iran. 0.61

00:44:14.480 And now they are paying attention.

00:44:16.360 Finally, I heard that President Obama actually said that he regrets.

00:44:22.000 Hillary Clinton said that she regrets by not supporting the Green Movement in 2009.

00:44:28.320 So we, the people of Iran, actually now calling on the free world that this is the time we have to see international women's march for women of Iran and women of Afghanistan.

00:44:42.600 Because otherwise, the history will judge every single democratic country who could actually support girls and women in Iran and Afghanistan, but they kept silent.

00:44:57.200 So I see the progress.

00:44:59.720 I see that we are being heard, but we need more actions.

00:45:03.120 First, the democratic countries must actually recognize this revolution and recall their ambassadors.

00:45:11.040 This is not me saying that.

00:45:13.200 One million Iranians signed a petition and asking the leaders of G7, democratic countries, to kick out Iranian diplomats.

00:45:24.140 You know, there is Iran's interest section in Washington, D.C.

00:45:30.400 Jordan, I challenge every feminist to come with me, to go to Iran's interest section, to see that how here in the U.S. we get kicked out if we don't cover our hair. 1.00

00:45:44.480 In 21st century, they don't even allow us to go to Iran's interest section.

00:45:48.280 Why? Because we have to cover ourselves according to Sharia laws. 0.99

00:45:56.180 Why?

00:45:57.200 My people, my women in Iran, they're risking their lives.

00:46:02.000 They're practicing their civil disobedience.

00:46:03.820 They removed their hijab.

00:46:05.380 Why should we keep silent?

00:46:08.020 We can do that here.

00:46:09.180 We can practice our civil disobedience in Iran's interest section to show the rest of the world that how barbaric this regime is. 0.76

00:46:18.020 So let me argue this a bit from the side, the hypothetically more progressive side, because there's some thorny issues here.

00:46:26.860 I mean, one of the things that people who tilt towards the left in the West are concerned with is that any negative press, let's say, in relationship to the more tyrannical elements of Islamic fundamentalism has the negative consequence of shedding a dim light on the religious practices as a whole.

00:46:50.500 And so people are rightly concerned, I suppose, about distinguishing between valid criticisms of the excesses of the fundamentalists and generating a kind of more global, let's call it Islamophobia, that would inflame religious tensions between the Christian world and the Jewish world and the Islamic world.

00:47:14.280 And so there's this very thin line in some sense that has to be walked such that we can distinguish between the fundamentalist totalitarians and leave some respect from the Western perspective for the alternative Islamic culture in place.

00:47:34.160 And I mean, I've talked to a lot of Islamic moderates, people who are working to put forward a vision of Islam that's more commensurate, say, with a liberal democracy.

00:47:46.920 And they're also concerned about a kind of blanket Islamophobia.

00:47:51.180 And I think some of the resistance on the part of the left to criticizing regimes like Iran is this fear that a more generalized, quote, Islamophobia might develop.

00:48:03.420 And so to what degree, and it's an open question in relationship to Iran too, like you associate the totalitarian prescriptions with Sharia law, and there's a religious element to that.

00:48:15.680 I mean, and people like, she wrote Infidel, Ayaan Hirsi Ali, I mean, she's come out very strongly as an anti-Islamic crusader in some real sense, and also a great promoter of women's freedoms.

00:48:32.640 She's someone I admire remarkably.

00:48:34.720 But it does leave us with this thorny question, right, is that on the one hand, we have these fundamentalist proclivities that seem to manifest themselves in Islam and also in other religions.

00:48:45.320 And then we have the problem of having to maintain peaceful relationships with the Islamic culture as a whole.

00:48:51.400 And it's not easy in the West to figure out how to do both of those at the same time.

00:48:55.500 Why?

00:48:56.020 I mean, I don't get it.

00:48:56.980 How do you not throw the...

00:48:58.200 I don't get it.

00:48:58.980 Why?

00:48:59.240 Okay.

00:48:59.720 Why?

00:49:00.220 Look, I'm coming from a Muslim family.

00:49:03.340 I'm not against my mother.

00:49:05.360 I'm not against my father.

00:49:07.580 I want separation between religion and politics.

00:49:13.080 Is that difficult to understand that I get attacked by some people in the West saying that when I criticize Sharia laws, when I criticize Islamic ideology, they're saying that, oh, you're anti-Muslim.

00:49:25.160 You're, I mean...

00:49:26.580 Right.

00:49:26.800 Well, actually, I wrote an article to criticize Ilhan Omar's legislation.

00:49:32.580 Her legislation is to gather information of those who are causing Islamophobia.

00:49:38.660 I wrote an article for Washington Post.

00:49:40.660 I challenged her that if we criticize Islamic Republic, we criticize Sharia laws, we criticize Taliban, does it, in your point of view, does it, I mean, is it going to cause Islamophobia?

00:49:57.660 I wanted her to clarify what she means by causing Islamophobia in the West, because in my country, if we criticize Islam, we get hanged as murtad, muharab, means you are waging war against God.

00:50:16.460 Right now that I'm talking to you, more than 50 people are in prison waiting to be hanged because of waging war against God or, oh my God, spreading corruption on the earth.

00:50:38.880 So these are all, according Sharia laws, legal.

00:50:43.300 People, it's legal.

00:50:44.300 People can, people get killed, hanged, executed in the name of Sharia laws in Iran.

00:50:50.080 So if I criticize that in the West, then I'm causing Islamophobia or I'm anti-Muslim?

00:50:57.540 So for me, for me, look, I'm not scared of being labeled of Islamophobic at all.

00:51:04.500 The revolution is taking place in Iran.

00:51:07.340 It's against Islamic Republic and gender apartheid regime, which actually the Islamic Republic is against minority.

00:51:16.320 It's against LGBT community. 1.00

00:51:19.620 It's against environment.

00:51:21.740 It's against Bahá'í, Jewish, all minority. 1.00

00:51:26.460 It's against Kurds, Turk, Baluch. 0.98

00:51:28.920 It's against women. 1.00

00:51:30.240 It's against our dignity.

00:51:31.980 So these are the values that we share with the Western left and liberals.

00:51:37.160 These are the values that, all these values are universal.

00:51:42.000 So what is wrong here in the West, in my opinion, it's like Democrats and Republicans cannot see human rights abuse in Iran like bipartisan issue.

00:51:56.000 For me, I get attacked if I come to your show by left and liberal.

00:52:01.340 If I go and ask the left and liberal to support our cause, I get attacked by right wings.

00:52:07.880 So this is wrong.

00:52:09.840 To be honest, when it comes to Iran and Afghanistan, we should only care about universal values.

00:52:20.140 I'm going to be very honest with you.

00:52:21.720 I really don't care whether Trump is in power, Biden is in power, or Obama is in power.

00:52:28.040 What I care, that the Islamic states should not be in power in Iran and Afghanistan. 1.00

00:52:33.660 Because at the end of the day, here in America, we have First Amendment, we have freedom of expression, we have free media.

00:52:42.420 We can criticize whoever we want.

00:52:45.360 But in my country, when you criticize Khamenei, you pay a huge price, which is your life.

00:52:52.920 So that's why, is that too much to ask, I mean, for media, for policymakers here, politicians, that when it comes to Iran, when it comes to the Islamic Republic, we have to get united.

00:53:08.240 We have to get all together and give voice to Iranian people who want to get rid of the Islamic Republic. 0.99

00:53:15.000 Because the Islamic Republic is not only a threat for Iranians. 0.94

00:53:18.620 Believe me, the Islamic Republic, if they want to kill Americans, they never ask you whether you are Republican or you're Democrat, whether you support LGBT community or you don't support gay people. 0.99

00:53:29.260 They kill you anyway because you are American. 0.82

00:53:32.620 So that is why I call on Americans every day, every single corner that I go, that when it comes to Iranian fight against the Islamic Republic,

00:53:42.740 you have to see this as bipartisan issue.

00:53:45.780 Otherwise, believe me, the Islamic Republic will get united by Putin, with Putin, Maduro, China, all the dictators, and they will end democracy. 0.91

00:53:58.860 How good are your connections in Iran right now?

00:54:01.900 How much of a sense do you have of what's happening on the ground?

00:54:06.260 What is the situation in Iran right now?

00:54:08.840 How widespread are the protests?

00:54:10.420 Who's participating?

00:54:11.420 What do you see as the most likely outcome?

00:54:15.580 Right now, the revolution in Iran, which is taking place, it's like a marathon.

00:54:22.060 You know, I'm not saying that we're going to overthrow the regime overnight.

00:54:26.060 We have a really tough road ahead.

00:54:28.400 As you see, 18,000 people are in prison and more than 50 of them are in death row.

00:54:34.900 They are, like, two of them got executed recently.

00:54:39.180 And the family members of the political prisoners that I'm being in touch with them, they're really worried about their beloved one.

00:54:45.760 I mean, Jordan, I mean, Jordan, just think about it.

00:54:49.360 You go to prison just because of chanting for freedom, and then every morning you have to be concerned that you're the next one that you're going to be hanged for wanting freedom, democracy, and dignity.

00:55:05.520 That's very scary.

00:55:07.880 And when I talk to the members of those political prisoners, they're really frustrated.

00:55:14.700 But what amazed me, immediately when people get executed or get killed in Iran, oh, my God, their family members turning the funeral like massive protest against the whole regime. 0.80

00:55:29.780 That's very unique.

00:55:31.780 And it's very shocking that the more that the Iranian regime kills people, the more people get determined to take back to the streets. 0.80

00:55:42.740 So that is actually a significant sign that the Iranian people are fed up with the Islamic Republic. 0.80

00:55:48.000 And they have a clear message that we are going to end this regime.

00:55:53.680 I mean, it's not easy, actually, to say that when teenagers, when children are getting killed, their family members are being forced to go on TV and do false confessions.

00:56:07.220 Like the family members sitting in front of camera and denouncing their beloved one.

00:56:12.320 So this is what's going on right now in Iran.

00:56:15.880 But a lot of people are hopeful.

00:56:19.060 They're very hopeful.

00:56:20.020 I mean, the Iranian regime took everything away from people not hope. 0.97

00:56:22.960 They believe that with the help of the Western countries, less people will get killed and we will win this battle.

00:56:30.720 We will end this, you know, barbaric regime.

00:56:34.860 Let's talk a little bit about what might constitute a path forward.

00:56:38.900 Because you could imagine that the regime is overthrown, that it falls apart in tatters, let's say.

00:56:44.500 But, well, one of the themes that's developed in the biblical story of Exodus is the notion, the narrative notion that when you escape from a tyranny and you've been slaves, you don't go to the promised land.

00:57:00.900 You go to the desert, right?

00:57:02.700 And that's a period of interminable wandering and confusion.

00:57:05.760 And we've seen this time and time again where an oppressive centralized regime will collapse.

00:57:12.200 And the consequence of that isn't the recreation of a functional polity, but the descent into something like unbridled chaos.

00:57:19.600 And, I mean, Iran could fragment.

00:57:21.460 There's all sorts of tensions that are pulling it apart.

00:57:23.560 And one of the things that I'm curious about are your views about what might happen that would actually be productive in the Iranian context if the centralized oppressive regime collapsed.

00:57:36.560 Like, why wouldn't Iran just become a failed state then? 1.00

00:57:40.060 Why are you optimistic about the fact that a new form of governance might emerge?

00:57:45.040 That's actually a very good question because I often get these questions from journalists, even ordinary people in the West saying that how you're that sure that Iran is not going to be Libya, Iran is not going to be Syria, you know what?

00:58:02.840 But let's just compare Iran with our own history.

00:58:06.600 Like, back to 40 years ago, why shouldn't we compare Iran to our own history, that women and men were together, they had social freedom?

00:58:18.960 And it's so sad that the Iranian regime is trying to sell this narrative to the Western media and saying that if you support this revolution, chaos is going to happen.

00:58:32.020 This situation is chaos, where women are getting raped, where minority getting killed, where the family members are going to prison just because of asking, why did you kill my son?

00:58:51.740 Why did you kill my daughter? 0.86

00:58:54.720 This is Syria.

00:58:56.300 So the only reason that Iran can be like Syria is the Islamic Republic. 0.97

00:59:02.020 It's this barbaric mullahs. 1.00

00:59:05.240 So for me and millions of Iranians, it's clear that we know what we want.

00:59:11.720 If we get rid of the Islamic Republic, we want to have fair and free election, then we can choose the kind of government that we want them to run the country. 1.00

00:59:24.080 And believe me, when you open the doors of prison, all those political prisoners right now are being suffering under the Islamic Republic. 0.96

00:59:34.660 They can run the country better than these backward mullahs. 1.00

00:59:38.080 Many educated people outside Iran, many intellectual elites who were forced to leave Iran.

00:59:47.280 Now they are ready to run the country.

00:59:49.940 And believe me, they can run the country better than clerics, better than mullahs. 1.00

00:59:53.640 So this is, to me, clear that the Iranian regime trying to sell this narrative.

01:00:00.900 But believe me, as far as the Islamic Republic is in power, the whole world cannot be a safe place. 1.00

01:00:09.880 Right now that I'm talking to you, the Islamic Republic sending drones to Putin to kill innocent Ukrainians. 0.93

01:00:19.740 Right now that I'm talking to you, U.S. citizen, British citizen, U.K. citizen, German citizen, Swedish citizen.

01:00:26.620 They are in Iranian prison being used like bargaining chip to get nuclear deal.

01:00:35.000 And then here, I keep hearing from some of the analysts, some of the apologists, some of the media and policymakers saying that we have to stick with, you know, our policy to negotiate with the same regime because an Iran with bomb is a very dangerous regime for everyone. 0.83

01:00:55.840 But believe me, an Iran without Islamic Republic can make the whole world a much safer place. 1.00

01:01:03.720 And you can actually, we can, we Iranians and Western countries, we can achieve our goal when the Islamic Republic is gone. 0.99

01:01:14.100 Because the Iranian regime is a cheater broker. 1.00

01:01:18.660 They are cheating. 0.96

01:01:19.860 You cannot trust them.

01:01:21.060 You cannot negotiate with them when they lie.

01:01:23.160 But they keep lying about their nuclear activities, everything.

01:01:28.000 So for millions of Iranians, it's clear that if the Western countries understand that they can achieve their goal, if the Islamic Republic is gone,

01:01:40.940 then Iran is going to be a secular democratic country.

01:01:46.400 The young generation, smart and intellectual leaders inside and outside Iran, they can run this country better than Khatami, Khomeini.

01:01:56.320 You have enough faith in the educated and competent section of the Iranian population, dispersed though it may be, to put forward a form of governance that's going to be far superior to what's happening now. 1.00

01:02:10.740 And you think that's a realistic possibility?

01:02:12.920 It is.

01:02:13.480 It is.

01:02:13.820 It is.

01:02:14.880 Look, let me tell you something.

01:02:17.460 For years and years, Iranian regime were trying to say that if you don't cover yourself, you won't be safe in public. 0.99

01:02:25.520 You will get raped by men. 0.99

01:02:28.240 Oh, my God. 1.00

01:02:29.680 This is their mindset. 0.67

01:02:31.580 They even actually made a fake news about myself as well, saying that on Iranian national television, that Massey Alinejad got raped by three men in London.

01:02:44.340 Guess why?

01:02:45.100 Because she undressed herself.

01:02:47.540 So this is the mentality of this regime, believes that even about the Me Too movement in the West, 0.94

01:02:54.620 I remember that the Supreme Leader, Ali Khamenei, said that the Western feminists, the Western women who are now complaining about getting raped and sexually harassed, it's because they don't know Islam. 0.86

01:03:08.940 It's their fault because they don't wear hijab. 1.00

01:03:11.820 They don't cover themselves, so they deserve to get raped. 1.00

01:03:15.360 This is the mindset of this regime. 0.99

01:03:17.040 So, of course, the young generation are more progressive than this backward mullahs, and they can run this country better than those who believe that if you get raped, it's your fault. 1.00

01:03:30.680 So let's go to the particulars of your individual experience and the individual experience of Iranian women.

01:03:36.800 You talked a bit in this broadcast so far about the morality police.

01:03:41.000 And so what did that mean in your day-to-day life?

01:03:43.380 Who are the morality police?

01:03:44.700 How widespread and prevalent are they?

01:03:48.120 What sort of people are they, and what do they do?

01:03:51.320 I cannot believe it.

01:03:52.620 Again, in 21st century, we talk about morality police.

01:03:56.380 What kind of moral?

01:03:57.860 That you walk in the streets and you look around and you see, like, teenagers, oh, cover yourself, cover yourself. 1.00

01:04:05.400 If you don't cover yourself, then I'm going to punch you on your face. 0.96

01:04:08.540 Yes, morality police are a bunch of officers, men and women. 0.99

01:04:15.360 They're receiving money from the regime, walking in public and monitoring that whether people behave properly, whether people follow Sharia laws appropriately.

01:04:29.540 I mean, Mahsa Amini, who got killed, the 22-year-old woman, she was not even unveiled.

01:04:39.060 A little bit of her hair was visible.

01:04:43.040 And that's why she got arrested. 0.99

01:04:44.600 You know, I really want you to go and check the hashtag called, my camera is my weapon.

01:04:52.620 For years and years, I have been receiving videos from women inside Iran filming morality police.

01:05:00.000 If you really want to know what morality police mean in 21st century, go and watch their videos that bravely filming the officers and a bunch of backward, you know, agents of the Islamic Republic harassing women for the way that they've been dressing in public. 1.00

01:05:19.140 And it's beyond sad, it's beyond sad that for years and years, women are being harassed, getting bitten up, getting arrested or receiving lashes for not wearing appropriate hijab for years and years.

01:05:39.780 And now the whole world, now finally they're paying attention to us.

01:05:45.220 But believe me, it didn't need for teenagers to get killed, for the whole world to understand that.

01:05:52.060 When we fight against compulsory hijab, we fight against one of the most dangerous regimes who dared to kill innocent people for just, you know, being their true self. 0.99

01:06:05.460 And what sort of people do you think are attracted to the job of morality police?

01:06:10.980 Like, how would you characterize them?

01:06:14.700 To be honest, sometimes it's all about money, but sometimes they're being brainwashed.

01:06:22.480 They're being brainwashed that you're doing for good of the people.

01:06:28.340 I mean, my own father.

01:06:30.260 I mean, I love my father.

01:06:31.880 I love him.

01:06:32.700 It's not even easy to talk about it, but my own father was trying to take me to heaven by force all my life, all my life.

01:06:44.560 I can, he was kind of morality police.

01:06:47.440 And millions of Iranian women had this experience, having morality police inside their own house. 1.00

01:06:54.820 Like, father, brother telling us that, cover yourself.

01:07:01.720 It's for your good.

01:07:03.240 I'm protecting you.

01:07:04.940 So you see, my father didn't have any chance to be educated properly.

01:07:10.760 So he was the one being brainwashed by all the mullahs, clerics, through educational system, through TV, all the propaganda tools, media, that, you know, you are the owner of your daughter. 0.78

01:07:26.020 If you don't force her to cover herself, then you will be responsible as well.

01:07:34.460 I mean, my father and I was told through all the clerics, through TV, that women will get hanged by their hair if they don't cover it.

01:07:44.680 So my father was like, okay, so I'm going to protect my daughter.

01:07:49.080 That's kind of brainwash can make people to please their own daughters, to please women in public. 1.00

01:07:59.160 So what's your, if you don't mind me asking, and feel free to reject the question, what are your parents' attitudes towards what you're doing now and the profile that you've established?

01:08:12.920 I mean, you're not only experiencing the division in Iranian society at the political and sociological level, it's being acted out in your own household, which is typically the case for deep political issues.

01:08:25.160 And so how do your parents and your family respond to what you're doing at the present time?

01:08:32.420 To be honest, not only my family, millions of other Muslim people, millions of other, you know, older generations who have been supporting this regime, they have changed.

01:08:46.020 But just watching that, how brutal is this regime?

01:08:49.560 I mean, I can talk about myself again, that the Iranian regime interrogated my 70-year-old mother for what I have been doing, to stop her from sharing her love with me.

01:09:03.500 It was really sad watching my own sister on Iranian national television disowning me publicly.

01:09:10.220 And it's beyond sad that the Iranian regime actually asked my own family to take me to Turkey.

01:09:19.160 They were trying to kidnap me from Turkey.

01:09:21.840 So for me, it's heartwarming that my mom didn't go to TV to denounce me publicly.

01:09:28.380 It's heartwarming that my mom didn't want me to be kidnapped.

01:09:33.340 So that's why she didn't actually cooperate with the regime.

01:09:40.500 My brother, my brother Ali, oh my God, they put him in prison for two years just because he didn't want to actually,

01:09:49.680 he didn't want to see his sister being tricked from America to Turkey and being kidnapped from Turkey.

01:09:59.560 So that was the plan of the Islamic Republic.

01:10:01.920 So you see, I have been working really hard.

01:10:05.120 Now I have my family on my side, which maybe they're not saying that in public,

01:10:10.400 but by not taking me to Turkey, by not going on TV and denouncing me publicly, I love them, you know, I love them.

01:10:22.300 And many other, many other people in the street that I see that they wear hijab, but they're supporting their daughters.

01:10:30.920 Many other fathers that I see that they believe in Islam, but they don't believe in political Islam and they don't want to support this regime. 0.79

01:10:39.960 So that scares the Iranian government.

01:10:42.980 That finally, finally, people like my mother, people who actually were part of the revolution to overthrow the Shah's regime,

01:10:52.640 taking to the streets and saying that we made a mistake.

01:10:57.040 We overthrew the Shah's regime. 0.98

01:10:59.560 We made a mistake, you know.

01:11:01.240 So many people chanting in the streets saying that it's a big lie that the Islamic Republic say that our enemy is America.

01:11:10.320 Our enemy is right here, is the Islamic Republic. 1.00

01:11:13.520 So this is the victory.

01:11:15.480 So that's why I'm very, very optimistic, because I believe that even those who supported the Islamic Republic,

01:11:24.640 now they know, they know it very well, that the Islamic Republic is against the dignity of everyone. 1.00

01:11:32.600 Everyone.

01:11:33.660 And this is the same regime that actually asking people to say death to America.

01:11:37.380 I mean, they brainwashed me, my family, to say death to America, but they send their own relatives to America. 0.99

01:11:46.760 Jordan, right now that I'm talking to you, the children of the hostage takers, those who took American diplomats hostage,

01:11:54.920 they send their children here.

01:11:56.560 They live in America. 0.89

01:11:57.620 They live in New York, in L.A., having their luxury lives. 0.62

01:12:00.560 So my parents and the older generation, they're watching this hypocrisy.

01:12:06.880 And finally, they're supporting the young generation.

01:12:10.240 And they're saying that, yeah, they lied to us.

01:12:13.620 They lied to us.

01:12:15.360 Their children, their relatives are enjoying freedom.

01:12:19.840 They go to parties.

01:12:21.600 They dance.

01:12:22.840 They sing.

01:12:23.880 They're happy in the West.

01:12:25.380 But here, the voice of Iranian people crying for the same freedom, crying to have the same, you know, dignity.

01:12:36.980 It's just unbelievable.

01:12:39.340 You talked as well about the corruption of the mullahs. 0.85

01:12:42.700 And so, you know, there's a biblical injunction.

01:12:45.320 It's one of the Ten Commandments, to not take God's name in vain.

01:12:48.640 And people think that means don't swear.

01:12:51.360 And that isn't what it means.

01:12:52.720 What it means is don't use the name of God to justify your own instrumental agenda.

01:13:01.060 Don't claim to be doing holy work and good work when actually what you're doing is promoting your own narrow self-interest.

01:13:08.140 And so we have a regime in Iran that's unbelievably corrupt, the mullah regime, on the financial level.

01:13:14.260 And they're justifying their machinations with reference to a transcendent authority.

01:13:19.200 But can you talk a little bit about corruption in the mullah establishment and how that plays itself out in Iranian society?

01:13:29.060 How do you see that on the ground?

01:13:31.360 This regime is corrupted.

01:13:33.760 And for years and years, they were saying that, you know, we overthrew the Shah's regime because we want to help the poor people.

01:13:42.040 But believe me, now, the relative of the mullahs, they own all the, you know, big companies in Iran.

01:13:50.660 They actually, the one receiving all the monies that the American government actually, when they lift up sanctions, they send billions of dollars to Iranian government.

01:14:02.660 The money goes directly to the revolutionary guards, to the relative of the ayatollahs.

01:14:09.260 And for many years, the Iranian regime put the blame on the U.S. sanction.

01:14:14.980 But can you believe that while we, the people of Iran, were suffering from sanctions,

01:14:19.280 the Islamic Republic actually increased the budget of two well-known institutions,

01:14:26.680 which belongs to the son of the Ayatollah Khomeini and the son of Ayatollah Khomeini.

01:14:33.580 So the money directly goes to 51 religious institutions, including morality police.

01:14:44.820 Why do they put the blame on U.S. sanction?

01:14:48.000 Right.

01:14:48.440 So they're running a shell game to enrich themselves financially, enrich themselves and their relatives in a dynastic and autocratic manner,

01:14:58.140 while simultaneously claiming to be acting in the name of God and persecuting people who object as if they're satanic objectors.

01:15:07.460 That's basically the game.

01:15:09.620 And so that's using the Lord's name in vain, let's say.

01:15:12.500 But not only in Iran, not only inside Iran.

01:15:17.400 Look, just a few months ago, Salman Rushdie was the target of assassination plots.

01:15:23.540 Right, right.

01:15:24.280 Why?

01:15:25.160 Why?

01:15:26.420 Because of the fatwa from the ayatollahs, from my own country. 0.85

01:15:31.200 I was shocked.

01:15:32.480 I was shocked when I heard some of the media in the West were saying that the motive behind this assassination plot of Salman Rushdie is not clear.

01:15:40.900 Why?

01:15:42.240 It is clear.

01:15:42.720 Yeah, right, right.

01:15:44.200 It is clear.

01:15:45.320 Because when you go to the page of this person who was trying to kill Salman Rushdie, it's full of the pictures of ayatollahs.

01:15:54.680 And the front page of the newspaper in Iran, right after the assassination plot, was the picture of Salman Rushdie.

01:16:03.640 And they were celebrating.

01:16:05.160 They were celebrating the assassination plot, and they were actually saying that the next should be Masi al-Inejad.

01:16:12.680 So you see, assassinating is in the DNA of the Islamic Republic. 0.99

01:16:16.900 The supreme leader of the Islamic Republic, Ali Khamenei, actually promoted the fatwa against Salman Rushdie just three years ago on Twitter, on his Twitter account.

01:16:26.180 And then you're still saying that the motive behind this assassination plot is not clear?

01:16:29.960 It is clear.

01:16:32.000 That's why I'm angry with the tech companies.

01:16:35.700 I'm very angry with the tech companies still allowing Khamenei and his gang of killers to enjoy freedom of expression through social media.

01:16:46.860 While 18 million people are banned from using the same social media, Twitter, Instagram, Facebook, they're all filtered in Iran.

01:16:57.500 But those who order filtering, they are enjoying freedom on social media.

01:17:04.120 Iranian people are calling every day the tech companies, Twitter, kick out the ayatollahs until the day we have the same freedom to use Twitter. 0.64

01:17:14.940 Is that too much to ask?

01:17:17.160 Yeah.

01:17:18.640 Well, it appears to be.

01:17:20.040 I mean, when I saw what happened with Salman Rushdie, it must have been 25 years ago, and the fatwa was laid on him, 0.95

01:17:27.080 I thought the Western response was unbelievably weak-kneed and cowardly.

01:17:32.200 I thought, we have a real test case here.

01:17:34.080 The idea of freedom of expression is being directly challenged by this terrible regime in Iran with a price being laid on the head of an outstanding writer who's made his reputation in the West.

01:17:46.600 And all the West did was kowtow and become extremely apologetic. 0.89

01:17:50.860 And I thought, uh-oh, we're in real trouble because we're too stupid to notice that an attack on Salman Rushdie is a direct attack by the Iranian fundamentalists on the fundamental notion of freedom in the West. 0.95

01:18:02.620 And that's been unfolding over 25 years. 0.97

01:18:05.880 And as you said, it culminated in this most recent, nearly fatal attack on Rushdie.

01:18:10.940 And the West has-

01:18:14.000 Not only that, the professor at Oberlin College, Mahal Lati.

01:18:19.300 Right.

01:18:19.600 He is the one actually promoted the fatwa against Salman Rushdie.

01:18:24.620 And I don't get that, how he is welcomed by the U.S. government to be a professor and teach peace and democracy at Oberlin College.

01:18:36.860 Another professor, Mohajir Ani, who was the minister of a culture in Iran, who left Iran and now he lives in England.

01:18:48.820 He actually wrote a book and promoted the fatwa against Salman Rushdie.

01:18:54.500 So, you see, this, I don't get this contradiction that at the same time, you are saying that you care about democracy and safety of Americans and Western people.

01:19:07.140 But at the same time, you allow those who promote the fatwa against Salman Rushdie to enjoy their freedom and educate the young generation at universities in the Western countries.

01:19:16.800 They are going to ruin the mindset of the young generation in America. 0.52

01:19:24.000 That's why there is a huge campaign against Mahal Lati and asking the college, Oberlin College, to kick him out.

01:19:33.960 Because he was actually the one hiding and covering up the mass execution.

01:19:39.820 Because he was actually the ambassador of United Nations during the time when Ibrahim Raisi ordered the executions of more than 5,000 political prisoners.

01:19:53.180 He was the one actually here in America covering up the mass executions.

01:19:57.360 And now still nobody hears the cry of Iranian people saying that he was the one promoting the fatwa against Salman Rushdie as well.

01:20:04.900 You know, this is something that I strongly believe the American policymakers, Republican and Democrats, should see this like bipartisan issue and help us to be here.

01:20:16.660 Right, right.

01:20:18.120 Well, what would you like, in more detail, what would you like Western leaders to do in relationship to the ongoing events in Iran?

01:20:28.060 What do you think would be most helpful as far as you're concerned?

01:20:30.820 And so if I could sit down and talk to my Prime Minister, Justin Trudeau, which has about as much chance of happening as a snowball lasting on the sun, by the way.

01:20:39.960 What do you think it is that he should be doing that would actually be helpful to the women and men in Iran who are trying to fight against this fundamentalist tyranny?

01:20:48.940 Simple demand.

01:20:50.640 I call on Justin Trudeau to put the Revolutionary Guards on the terrorist list.

01:20:56.800 Look, three years ago, I was in Canadian Parliament.

01:21:01.960 I was actually begging the policymakers to put Revolutionary Guards in the terrorist list, to sanction Revolutionary Guards, and to sanction all the oppressors.

01:21:14.060 Three years ago.

01:21:15.520 What happened?

01:21:16.540 I was ignored.

01:21:17.520 I was actually under attack by some of the Islamic Republic apologists in Canada, and they're calling themselves activists, human rights activists, but they were echoing the voice of the Iranian regime and attacking me, bullying me.

01:21:36.220 Why?

01:21:36.540 Because I asked Justin Trudeau to actually sanction Revolutionary Guards.

01:21:41.320 What happened?

01:21:42.700 By ignoring our demand, the same Revolutionary Guard shot down the Ukrainian airplane and killed 176 innocent Iranian and Canadian people.

01:21:55.960 So our prime minister is hypothetically a progressive sort of person and is hypothetically on the side of women.

01:22:02.620 And so how do you account for the fact that despite your attendance at the Canadian Parliament and your request for support, that you never got it?

01:22:10.760 How do you explain that?

01:22:12.700 It breaks my heart.

01:22:14.360 It breaks my heart.

01:22:15.280 But as you actually got to know me during this interview, I'm not that kind of person to give up my fight.

01:22:22.260 I'm not that kind of person to give up having hope to convince the leaders of democratic countries that this is your turn now.

01:22:31.160 You have to recognize Iran's revolution and call your allies, get united, kick out the Islamic Republic diplomats, recall your ambassadors from Iran, and publicly announce that the nuclear deal is dead, is dead. 0.53

01:22:53.320 Because you cannot condemn the killers, the murderers, but at the same time, trying to negotiate with them, sending billions of dollars to the same murderers.

01:23:04.180 Can we talk a little bit about the nuclear deal?

01:23:07.640 Is that a reasonable place to go?

01:23:09.520 I think there's nothing else to add.

01:23:13.560 The nuclear deal is already dead, but what we want, we want the U.S. government and its allies clearly and publicly announce that.

01:23:26.300 Because this is the only thing that can help the Islamic Republic to survive. 0.97

01:23:32.180 You know, the Islamic Republic always put the blame on us saying that, you know, this revolution, the new revolution is being supported by Western government.

01:23:41.080 But believe me, for its own survival, the Islamic Republic is begging for support, to get support from the Western countries.

01:23:49.680 We don't actually ask for much help from the leaders of democratic countries.

01:23:54.960 What we want is just to, we want them to stick with their own values.

01:24:00.380 That's all.

01:24:01.320 And not save the Islamic Republic while the Iranian people manage to shake this regime.

01:24:07.520 Don't go and shake the hand of the same regime.

01:24:09.580 That's all we want.

01:24:11.420 Because we believe that the Islamic Republic is a threat for the region and for the democratic countries as well. 1.00

01:24:19.460 And if the Western countries are looking for stability in the region, they cannot go and negotiate with one of the most unstable regimes.

01:24:28.580 They have to recognize the civil society.

01:24:31.120 They have to recognize this modern progressive revolution.

01:24:35.300 And they have to stick with the people of Iran. 0.99

01:24:37.700 We are better allies than the Islamic Republic for the Western countries. 1.00

01:24:44.300 Right, right, right.

01:24:45.720 So do you believe that the revolutionary spirit that's now manifesting itself in Iran, is that growing?

01:24:54.180 Or are the mullahs successfully repressing it?

01:24:57.220 Because it looks like a pretty, it doesn't look to me like it's spreading exponentially.

01:25:02.800 You know, I can't tell.

01:25:03.760 And that's part of the reason why I wanted to talk to you today.

01:25:06.120 I mean, the mullahs have a lot of control and they have a lot of power and authority on their side.

01:25:10.580 And so what's the situation on the ground in Iran?

01:25:14.040 How widespread are the protests?

01:25:17.720 What percentage of the population is taking part?

01:25:20.380 I mean, the Chinese successfully have clamped down on their people time and time again and maintained their terrible totalitarian regime. 1.00

01:25:28.140 And so I don't understand the balance of power in Iran at the moment.

01:25:33.840 Do you think that the protesters have any chance here or are they just going to get shut down?

01:25:38.420 I strongly believe that this time the protesters are going to win the battle.

01:25:43.940 Because, look, first of all, the level of the brutality is very high.

01:25:49.700 I mean, people are facing executions.

01:25:52.520 But it's still, it's still, every single person get killed.

01:25:58.160 People get back to the street and turn his or her funeral like a massive protest against the same regime.

01:26:05.240 But don't forget that they have money and they can actually, you know, buy some of the people to shut down the protests and to oppress the protesters.

01:26:20.840 But at the same time, the more that the Iranian regime killed, the more that Iranian people get determined to overthrow this barbaric regime. 0.83

01:26:29.780 For me and millions of other people, this time is different.

01:26:33.200 This time is different because this time maybe it's like not 2009 demonstrations.

01:26:41.660 In 2009, it was mostly about election.

01:26:46.840 It's not like 2019 demonstrations because it was mostly about economic.

01:26:52.540 This time is mixed.

01:26:53.660 It's against people who believe that, you know, this regime is against every minority.

01:27:02.100 It's against men, women, LGBT community, environment. 0.69

01:27:07.940 It's against Bahá'í, Jewish people, Kurds, Turks, Baluch. 0.98

01:27:15.400 They all got united.

01:27:17.240 But for years and years, the Iranian regime was, like, successfully could execute Kurds. 0.93

01:27:23.200 And people were like, okay, we are not Kurds.

01:27:24.840 We are not going to get involved.

01:27:26.240 They were successfully executing Jewish people, Bahá'í minority, Arabs, Turks. 0.92

01:27:32.680 But now, immediately when they killed Mahsa Amini, people were like, we're all Mahsa.

01:27:39.620 We're all united.

01:27:41.340 People didn't say that we are not women, so we're not going to get involved in that. 0.99

01:27:45.200 So, this time is different because we see a sense of unity among Iranians inside and outside.

01:27:53.920 This time is unique because we see a sense of unity among Iranians and non-Iranians outside Iran.

01:28:03.180 You see that, you know, finally, people or celebrities are echoing the voice of Iranian people.

01:28:10.900 And this is the first time in our history that we see Iranian well-known athletes quitting their jobs and supporting Iranian uprising.

01:28:21.880 This is the first time that we see Iranian well-known actress saying that we don't want to be part of the propaganda tool. 0.84

01:28:30.200 They're removing their hijab and they're saying, we want to be part of this uprising. 0.97

01:28:35.560 So, that makes it different.

01:28:39.560 Right. So, you're making the case that this series of protests, this revolutionary movement, in some sense is more fundamental and also more united.

01:28:50.360 It's not about economics only.

01:28:52.300 It's not about the political situation and corruption.

01:28:54.460 It's about the fundamentally totalitarian nature of the state and the fact that it's oppressing people so broadly that everyone can be united in their opposition to that oppression.

01:29:06.520 Exactly.

01:29:06.800 So, you see it as striking at the heart of the totalitarian state.

01:29:10.180 Exactly. And as I told you, this is the first time in the history that people are united in a beautiful way.

01:29:19.540 And it actually empowered many people in autocracy, like Chinese people, when they took to the streets. 0.76

01:29:27.400 They were actually showing their support to Iranian people using the same slogan, woman, life, freedom.

01:29:34.120 People in Afghanistan, they got empowered by the slogan of Iranian people.

01:29:40.040 So, clearly, this uprising is encouraging everyone to be part of it.

01:29:49.380 You know, it's beautiful.

01:29:51.140 It's very progressive.

01:29:52.160 It's very beautiful that you see mothers and fathers immediately when they lose their beloved one.

01:29:59.640 They take to the street and saying that this revolution needs blood.

01:30:05.640 And our beloved one, you know.

01:30:08.020 I mean, I get goosebumps.

01:30:09.540 It's not easy for parents to say that.

01:30:12.500 It's not easy.

01:30:14.140 I'm a mother.

01:30:14.720 I cannot even imagine losing my son when I see that brave mothers for justice in Iran, immediately when they lose their son, they get the picture of their beloved one.

01:30:27.820 And they are, like, leading the revolution and saying that this revolution needs blood and my beloved one sacrificed her life, his life, to free Iran.

01:30:38.420 This is a revolution.

01:30:40.200 The revolution happened inside the heart of Iranian people, you know.

01:30:44.720 It's very, very powerful that you see people know that this is not free, but they are ready to pay the price.

01:30:55.020 These are, like, you know, to me, it's like I'm walking in the history, you know.

01:31:00.460 In the history, you see about, you read about heroes.

01:31:04.880 But now we actually see the real heroes in the streets of Iran saying that freedom is not free, but we are ready to pay the price to get rid of the Islamic Republic. 0.99

01:31:18.160 Well, Mazzy, that's a very good place to end, I would say.

01:31:23.900 We've talked for 90 minutes on YouTube.

01:31:26.260 Thank you very much for agreeing to talk to me today.

01:31:28.680 I hope you continue to be able to do what you're doing, and I'd like to thank you for talking to me.

01:31:36.720 I'd like to thank everybody who is watching and listening on YouTube and the associated platforms, too.

01:31:42.300 And if any of you have been particularly taken by this story today, you know, you could always put pen to paper and write your congressman or your senator and let them know that you're not all that happy about the situation in Iran.

01:31:54.900 And that if the politicians got their act together and were stalwart in their opposition to this fundamentalist, totalitarian, misogynistic, brutal regime, that maybe it could be pushed over and that would be a nice object lesson to totalitarian tyrants everywhere in the world.

01:32:11.400 And so you'd think the West could get their act together in relationship to that goal.

01:32:14.980 And so I'm going to talk to Mazzy some more on the Daily Wire Plus platform, probably more biographically, which is what I tend to do on that, in that 30-minute segment.

01:32:25.160 I'd like to thank the Daily Wire Plus people for setting up the production for this today and facilitating the conversation.

01:32:31.560 And once again, I'd like to thank you very much for talking to me today and wish you the best of luck in your, well, let's say first your continued existence and your continued safe existence,

01:32:41.240 but then also in your attempts to, well, allow your voice to ring out despite the, what would you say, the cost that you have and are likely to continue to bear.

01:32:59.120 Thank you so much. I hope we're going to win this battle and one day I'm going to invite you to my tiny village in Iran and you will be able to see beautiful Iran and beautiful people of my country.

01:33:11.980 It's a date. Yeah, that would not be something. That would be, that would be something to look forward to.

01:33:18.380 It's a dream coming true. Thank you so much for having me.

01:33:21.520 That's for sure. You bet. You bet. Very good talking with you.

01:33:26.280 Hello, everyone. I would encourage you to continue listening to my conversation with my guest on dailywireplus.com.

The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast - January 19, 2023

324. The Protest in Iran and What It Means ｜ Masih Alinejad

Episode Stats

Summary

Transcript