The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast - January 30, 2023

327. Women, Pornography, and Sadism ｜ Dr. Del Paulhus

Topics

trolling online

Hosted by

Jordan B. Peterson Mikhaila Peterson

Guests

Dr. Del Paulhus

326. Israel, Russia, China, Iran： The World in Conflict ｜ Walter Russell Mead 328. Jordan Peterson's Psychological Tools ｜ Dr. Daniel Higgins & Dr. Robert O. Pihl

Episode Stats

Length

1 hour and 49 minutes

Words per minute

140.22

Word count

15,334

Sentence count

646

Harmful content

Misogyny

18

sentences flagged

Toxicity

45

sentences flagged

Hate speech

17

sentences flagged

Summary

Summaries generated with gmurro/bart-large-finetuned-filtered-spotify-podcast-summ .

Dr. Dale Paulus from the University of British Columbia is a personality researcher whose work in so-called dark personality traits via a variety of measurement methods has yielded measures of the Dark Triad, narcissism, Machiavellianism, and last but not least, sadism. His work has also validated measures of socially desirable responding, perceived control, free will, and over-claiming. Dr. Paulus is definitely one of the world s most outstanding psychometric personality psychologists. He has been published in over 150 articles in books, and his current citation count exceeds 43,000. In this episode, he walks through his research on the dark triad, and explains how he became interested in it, and how he developed the measuring devices that he uses to measure it. He also explains how his research can be applied to other areas of psychological research, such as the study of narcissism and sadism, as well as to other domains of human behavior, like online misbehaviour, and the dark side of the internet. This episode is sponsored by Leaffilters, the leading anti-clogged gutters company. Leaffilter is a leading eco-friendly cleaning product and cleaning product company in the space. Leaf Filter is a trusted partner in the fight against climate change and climate change, and is the best-selling author of the bestselling book on the topic of climate change. Leaf Filter has been around for over 30 years. Since their founding in the late 1980s, Leaffilter has been recognized as the leading the way in the field of anti-eco-designer cleaning products, and eco-designers. in the past decade, and now they re the leading supplier of cleaning products for the modern era. and the only company to do it in the and their products are the best in the market. are the only ones in the world, and they re also the best at doing it all in the best of their price range. And they re on the cutting-edge of their own in a high-performance cleaning equipment, and are also the only in their own terms. . Leaffiltered, non-trendy, high-grade, ultra-high-grade and ultra-specialized, in-effortless, low-no frills, they re not just good at cleaning their own homes, they re good at it, they are the ones you need to know how to do so.

Transcript

Transcript generated with Whisper (turbo).

Misogyny classifications generated with MilaNLProc/bert-base-uncased-ear-misogyny .

Toxicity classifications generated with s-nlp/roberta_toxicity_classifier .

Hate speech classifications generated with facebook/roberta-hate-speech-dynabench-r4-target .

Topics generated with Qwen2.5-3B-Instruct.

Hosts, guests, and mentioned names generated with spaCy (en_core_web_sm), reconciled against Wikidata.

Show only flagged segments

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00:01:29.820 Hello everyone watching on YouTube and associated or listening on associated podcasts. I'm here today

00:01:37.660 talking to a colleague and a compatriot of mine, Dr. Dale Paulus from the University of British Columbia.

00:01:44.640 He's a personality researcher whose work in so-called dark personality traits via a variety of measurement

00:01:52.360 methods has yielded measures of the dark tetrad. Psychopathy, narcissism, Machiavellianism, and last but not least,

00:02:02.040 sadism. His work has also validated measures of socially desirable responding, perceived control,

00:02:07.880 free will and determinism, and over-claiming. His work has been published in over 150 articles in books

00:02:13.660 and his current citation count, which is the number of times other scientists have referred to his work

00:02:20.340 and the cardinal marker, I would say, of eminence and influence among scientists exceeds 43,000.

00:02:27.620 So, Dr. Paulus is definitely one of the world's most outstanding psychometric personality psychologists.

00:02:37.840 That is, personality psychologists who specialize in the field of mathematical measurement of behavioral and conceptual traits.

00:02:48.140 Hi, Dale. It's good to see you. I want to let everybody who's watching and listening know

00:02:53.520 Dr. Paulus from the University of British Columbia is a researcher in personality. As his bio indicated,

00:03:01.100 our work in some ways ran in parallel methodologically. I was very interested for years in statistical analysis

00:03:09.120 of linguistic descriptions of personality. I concentrated mostly on trying to further develop the idea of

00:03:19.900 the big five on the statistical front, the five-factor personality model, extroversion, neuroticism,

00:03:25.660 agreeableness, conscientiousness, and openness. Dr. Paulus took a turn that was very interesting to me, though,

00:03:34.020 as well. He's spent a number of decades studying what came to be known as the dark triad, and later the dark tetrad.

00:03:44.240 Originally, when the corpus of adjectives was generated to extract out a five-dimensional

00:03:51.940 description of personality from language, judgmental adjectives were eliminated from the corpus.

00:04:02.620 The idea was to produce a set of descriptors of normative and non-pathological personality,

00:04:08.940 independent in some sense of morality. And there was some utility in that, I think,

00:04:13.400 because it gave us a picture of normative personality. But the downside was we didn't

00:04:18.920 develop as detailed an understanding as we might have of the dark side of personality. And that seems

00:04:24.140 to be where your work, which is receiving increased public attention, I would say, perhaps in the days

00:04:31.080 of internet misbehavior. That's where your research really came into its own. Is that a reasonable

00:04:36.820 initial summary? Yeah, good summary. So do you want to start by explaining to people, let's walk

00:04:45.500 through your research on the dark triad. How did you become interested in this, and how did you develop

00:04:50.920 the measurement instruments, and what do you measure? Well, like a lot of academics, my research can be

00:04:58.260 traced back to my advisor, who was Richard Christie, the inventor of Machiavellianism as a trait. And he did

00:05:10.400 something very clever. He went into the books of Niccolo Machiavelli, who was an advisor to politicians

00:05:17.320 way back when. And he took the statements, administered them to undergraduate students, and simply asked them,

00:05:28.200 how much do you agree with these statements? Like, you have to get to know important people,

00:05:34.440 and always be prepared for the worst in people. And the amazing thing was the huge variance in the

00:05:45.560 responses. And that's what personality research is all about. We look for and wallow in, relish the fact

00:05:55.420 that people give different answers. And apparently, a lot of people agreed totally with the statements that

00:06:03.580 Machiavelli made in the 1500s. Others were horrified by them. And so that inspired Richard Christie to

00:06:12.620 make a questionnaire. The Mach 4, the most popular version of his questionnaires, was administered to

00:06:23.060 subject pools at his university, Columbia University, and elsewhere. And it wasn't just

00:06:33.560 self-reports and predicted actual behavior. So he could show that people who scored high on the Mach 4

00:06:41.420 manipulated others in a room in a laboratory. So they would try to squeeze money out of other people

00:06:51.700 by tricking them. And all of this could be recorded and published. Hence, Richard Christie is forever

00:07:02.020 associated with Machiavellianism. So I thought that was a fabulous way to do research. I moved on then

00:07:17.600 and took a real job at the University of British Columbia, and met up there with Bob Hare, sort of the

00:07:23.980 emperor of the emperor of research on psychopathy. Another aversive trait. And of course, he has done it all.

00:07:34.480 But what he didn't do was compare it to Machiavellianism. And I've also done some research separately

00:07:42.480 on narcissism, which captured attention of researchers in the 1980s. Because it seems to resonate.

00:07:52.860 Everybody knows narcissists, people who want a lot of attention and think they are superior to

00:08:00.740 everyone else. Everyone can resonate to knowing such people. So we have three personality variables.

00:08:10.620 Then when the student, Kevin Williams, came along, and typically in my career, I go with what the

00:08:18.520 students want to do. We decided to figure out whether there were more. Are there more aversive

00:08:27.600 personalities? So we searched the literature, and we did as much as we could back then, early 2000s,

00:08:35.940 to cover all the literature and see if there were more personalities that were at the level of

00:08:45.580 narcissism, narcissism, Machiavellianism, and psychopathy. We call them the dark triad because

00:08:52.920 they seem to dominate the literature. There are already hundreds of studies on each one of those.

00:09:00.520 The unfortunate results, fortunate in the long run, I suppose, is that the literature has overlapped

00:09:09.100 so much. You could barely tell the difference. If you took all the literature on narcissism, all the

00:09:16.600 literature on Machiavellianism, and psychopathy, you could see the same things coming up.

00:09:24.740 And that was the original problem. We want to parse the dark side of traits,

00:09:31.960 but you can't really do much with the literature because of this phenomenon that we called

00:09:40.540 construct creep. And that is, a researcher doesn't have the ability to research everything at once,

00:09:48.720 so they focus on one variable. But it creeps wider and wider until it overlaps with other variables.

00:09:56.600 And that's a problem because you don't know which one you're actually studying when you put it into

00:10:03.840 a research program. Which one is responsible for the action you're seeing?

00:10:10.740 Right, right. Well, we want to talk about that in some more detail, too, because I'd like to find out

00:10:16.180 a bit more about how you feel. I know that the dark triad has morphed into the dark tetrad to some degree,

00:10:22.760 and I'm also curious as to what you have to say about the overlap between the dark tetrad qualities

00:10:28.820 and personality disorder categories, especially in the histrionic, antisocial, and narcissistic

00:10:36.120 categories. Obviously, that shades into personality pathology. And so, can I define the three traits and

00:10:43.440 have you correct my definitions, if you would? So, the Machiavellians, as you pointed out, Machiavelli

00:10:49.400 was an advisor to princes who was really interested, in some sense, in the outright maintenance of

00:10:57.040 instrumental power. I wouldn't say he was driven by any intrinsic ethic. It was Machiavelli gave

00:11:03.020 advices to princes who wanted to maintain their position by hook or by crook, let's say. So,

00:11:09.800 Machiavellians are willing to use manipulation to obtain their personal ends. And narcissists seem to be

00:11:17.820 driven by a high desire to obtain unearned status from others. The most important thing for them is

00:11:27.320 not status in relationship to competence, let's say, or in relationship to performance, but just

00:11:32.240 in status for its own sake. And then the psychopaths, I spent a lot of time looking at Hare's research

00:11:39.800 and thinking about relationship to the big five. Psychopaths seem to be something approximating

00:11:45.580 parasitical predators. And so, they're very, very low in agreeableness, and that makes them callous

00:11:52.820 and non-empathetic. And then they also seem to be very low in conscientiousness. That seems to

00:11:58.240 accord reasonably well with the two factors of the psychopathy scale. And so, a real psychopath is

00:12:04.240 someone who is willing to take what you have, let's say, and use it, and that might be the

00:12:09.840 predatory aspect, and also to live off the earnings and efforts of others. And that's also an element

00:12:16.340 of criminal behavior. And so, you're looking at the nexus of all three of those, Machiavellianism,

00:12:22.320 narcissism, and psychopathy. And recently, you and other researchers have added, I think this is so

00:12:27.940 interesting, because I think it was a real lack. You added sadism to that, which is positive delight

00:12:35.020 and pleasure taken in the suffering of others. And so, can you expand at all upon the definitions

00:12:42.180 of Machiavellianism, narcissism, and psychopathy? And we can segue into sadism.

00:12:47.620 Yeah, I agree with all of your definitions. Although, what we did was spend a lot of time trying to find

00:12:54.400 what's different among each of the characters, and what the overlap is. Why is it that the literatures

00:13:03.960 and the measures that were available always overlapped to a dangerous degree in trying to understand

00:13:14.920 what's going on? So, the key thing for psychopaths, in our opinion, is impulsivity and

00:13:24.640 sensation-seeking, which is what gets them into trouble. They may not have worse motives than the

00:13:34.180 others, but they can't help it. That's why they, at the extreme levels, spend their lives in prison.

00:13:42.200 They can't help responding to temptation. Whatever the temptation is, they go for it.

00:13:51.460 And often, they get what they want right away, and they keep on doing it until they get caught,

00:13:59.520 and they don't seem to learn from it. So, that answers just a qualification to the definition

00:14:09.240 of psychopath. Now, what's underlying it, we think, is callousness for all of them. They're overlapping

00:14:16.780 because, at the core, is a failure to have empathy. And if you have a deficit in empathy,

00:14:27.680 it seems inevitable that you're going to exploit other people in one way or another because you're

00:14:33.880 not, you're not getting the feedback that people with empathy get in seeing other people suffer at

00:14:42.220 your hands. And the story of sadism is quite a long story, but if you want me to get into the

00:14:50.600 details, I can do that now. Sure. Yeah. Yeah. Please do. Please do.

00:14:53.560 Yeah. I don't know whether I'm more sensitive to these things than other people, but I started

00:15:02.060 seeing sadism in regular people. And not only is it there in everyday people, but people seem

00:15:13.200 to wallow in it when the circumstances allow it. For example, violent sports. One of my favorite

00:15:23.040 sports hockey, it's kind of pathetic watching a hockey game. The cheers are larger for the fights 0.97

00:15:30.500 than for the goals. People love to see their fighter pummel the fighter of the other team or pummel

00:15:39.680 anyone. And the cheers that go up in a hockey stadium are incredible. And the cheers only stop

00:15:47.880 when the victim falls to the ice and starts twitching and a hush follows over the crowd, showing the dual

00:15:59.180 nature of positive and negative motivations that human beings have. But the fact that they love seeing

00:16:09.180 the fighting, no matter how much blood and teeth end up on the ice, is disappointing in a way. And we

00:16:21.080 learned a long time ago from the Europeans, they don't have to do that to make hockey a wonderful

00:16:28.740 sport. That was just one. But then watching the undergraduate students at UBC, University of British

00:16:36.720 Columbia. What are they doing for fun? Well, if you'll recall, way, way back, they used to play these

00:16:44.560 archive games. And there were some gentle ones, Pac-Man, Asteroids. I don't know if you remember those.

00:16:54.240 But going down into the arcade, you see that people are gathered around one of the arcade games.

00:17:04.280 And so I wandered over to see it. And it was something called Mortal Kombat, which by today's

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00:18:55.000 ...are torn off, and the blood spurts out, and that's why the crowd was there, because it was so

00:19:03.480 much more appealing than the silly little Mario Brothers stuff. And it just struck me as

00:19:13.640 the beginning of my interest in what people do, especially young males, when they have time on

00:19:23.260 their own. So if it's not porn, then it seems like it's violence, and it's somewhat horrifying.

00:19:33.480 But it's gotten worse. I don't know if you've been following the video games that are now

00:19:42.520 available on your home computer. You don't need to go to an arcade and be embarrassed by what you're

00:19:48.800 playing, because you can sit at home and play whatever games you want. And so now, what's it

00:19:57.280 called a grand theft auto? You can kill innocent bystanders, step on their heads, etc. And there 0.98

00:20:05.720 are actual torture sites where you can go and torture people. You can torture animals. It's all

00:20:12.640 there. And so people are paying to do this stuff. They pay for violent sports. They pay for violent

00:20:21.320 movies. What's the most popular television program these days? It's called Game of Thrones. And it's the

00:20:28.980 most sadistic kind of television program that you've ever seen. People are paying for this in one way or

00:20:38.420 another. And they're attracted to it. They relay stories with their friends. So this, putting this

00:20:45.660 picture together, suggested to me that some, not all, in fact, the variance again is there, which excites

00:20:54.240 a personality researcher. Some people are highly attracted to this stuff. Other people are horrified.

00:21:02.160 I know that neurophysiologically, anger is a multidimensional emotion. It activates positive

00:21:14.060 emotion systems and negative emotion systems simultaneously. And so you can think about that

00:21:20.040 perhaps as the core element of something like aggression, at least maybe both defensive and

00:21:26.380 predatory aggression. And then you could imagine that people are wired differently as individuals so

00:21:31.980 that for any given person, being angry might be associated with a predominance of approach

00:21:38.940 motivation, right? Positive emotion and a relative decrement of negative emotion. And for other people

00:21:43.700 that would be reversed. Like I'm trying to account for what the positive pleasure is in the observation

00:21:49.660 or participation in the aggression. I mean, you could associate it with, hypothetically, you could

00:21:54.420 associate it actually with predatory behavior, with hunting and with combat. But it also might be a

00:22:01.300 consequence of differential wiring at the neurological level in relationship to the balance between

00:22:06.600 positive and negative emotion experienced by any given person with anger. Because you see this

00:22:13.140 variation in people, you know? I mean, I know some people who are real fighters, let's say on the

00:22:18.180 political front, and some of them really enjoy a good scrap, right? It really seems to get them

00:22:23.220 motivated. And this isn't a criticism of them necessarily. And then other people, and I think I fall more into

00:22:29.900 this cap. I'm not really very interested at all in conflict. It bothers me a lot. Although I don't

00:22:35.940 like delayed conflict. So I'm likely to engage in it, you know, relatively upfront. But so we could go

00:22:42.960 into that. Like, what do you think? What do you think is the fundamental biological and then also ethical

00:22:48.980 difference between people who are taking positive delight in aggression and those who aren't?

00:22:53.900 And, well, I guess we could start with those questions.

00:23:00.000 Yeah, that's the fundamental query, a puzzle in a way. Why would human beings have to have a sadistic

00:23:11.000 side, at least some people? And as you mentioned, predatory very often. So one can speculate that it

00:23:18.900 helps adult animals, carnivores especially, hunt if they not only are willing but enjoy the killing.

00:23:30.900 And that could have been carried over to human beings. Also, a little more instrumental explanation

00:23:39.900 would be that it helps dominance. That is, if you can scare off your competitors, whether they're

00:23:49.780 competitors for mates or for territory, then being sadistic about it.

00:23:57.620 That would be a niche theory in some sense, I guess, is that I know that the worldwide prevalence

00:24:04.040 of psychopathy ranges between one and five percent, hovers around three. And what it seems to indicate,

00:24:10.900 because it's relatively stable, is that although being a psychopath isn't a particularly successful

00:24:17.700 strategy, in that 97 percent of people don't take that route, in a cooperative society, a niche does

00:24:24.940 open up for people who are willing to use manipulation and impulsive behavior and sadism to dominate

00:24:32.240 and use power oppressively to at least, what would you say, carve out for themselves some degree of

00:24:39.120 success. And then now and then some spectacular success, I suppose, which would be the case with

00:24:44.520 people who are extraordinarily successful at being tyrants. And so we have two arguments there in some

00:24:51.800 sense. One is like a neurobiological difference in response to the balance of positive and negative

00:24:57.580 emotion in anger. And the other one is, well, there's a niche that opens up for people who are

00:25:02.080 willing to use power and manipulation and so forth to attain the rewards of social dominance. And

00:25:08.920 psychopaths seem to do that, right? Because they'll manipulate. They often have to move from place to

00:25:13.420 place because people figure them out. But they will use short-term dominant strategies. I think you've

00:25:19.060 related that, too, as well, the dark triad, to short-term mating strategies as well, right? Which is an

00:25:25.320 interest. That's another thing that we could concentrate on, right, on what the dark triad predicts.

00:25:29.680 The dark triad interested me particularly because the literature I read on psychopaths did describe

00:25:36.180 them as impulsive. So they're willing even to sacrifice their own futures to the pleasure of

00:25:40.740 the moment. But there was obviously a subset of psychopaths who delighted in being cruel.

00:25:46.420 And the standard explanation of callousness, say, which is merely lack of empathy, didn't seem to be

00:25:52.420 enough, right? Because it isn't merely that people are lacking empathic and empathy. It's that sometimes

00:25:59.780 there are people who take a positive delight in cruelty. And that there's a new term that's used

00:26:04.900 to describe online mobbing behavior or bullying behavior, troll behavior, which is lulls, right? I just

00:26:13.400 did it for the lulls, which is the plural of lol, laugh out loud. And to do it for the lulls is to go

00:26:21.960 after someone on the net, often anonymously, merely for the purpose of making them miserable and wretched

00:26:28.840 and put them in pain, just so that you can enjoy that. And certainly that's not mere psychopathy,

00:26:36.340 right? That's not mere impulsiveness. There's an additional component that's worth concentrating on.

00:26:41.360 All right. So you covered a lot of ground there. Picking up on the argument for psychopaths being

00:26:50.440 impulsive, just to remind viewers who are not that familiar with evolutionary theory, the simple argument

00:27:00.060 is you got to get mates to maintain your genes in the gene pool. And there are many ways of doing that,

00:27:10.280 right? One is to grab and run with whatever you want using force if necessary. That will sometimes get

00:27:19.360 you mates. More strategic Machiavellians find ways of manipulating others to get their genes into the gene pool.

00:27:30.440 Narcissists seem to attract mates, partly because of their confidence, even if it is overconfidence.

00:27:39.940 Sadists are a little harder to see. Why would being sadistic get you romantic and sexual partners?

00:27:52.360 Well, I think I touched on the only explanation that I could think of, and I think you mentioned it too,

00:28:00.260 and that is, well, you scare off your competitors, and you even scare off your mate into doing what you want

00:28:10.040 by hurting them and in a very public way. So you're deterring reactions from other people,

00:28:19.980 and that may be of benefit in some circumstances. And then you went into the niche theory, or niche,

00:28:29.060 as some people say. Yeah, there's a lot of niches out there for dark personalities.

00:28:35.820 Each one may require very select kinds of traits, but if you want a job as an enforcer,

00:28:43.980 enforcer, and on a hockey team, you better damn well be able to, and willing to, and like to, hurt other people.

00:28:53.620 You know, it also might be, so I know someone quite well, so I talked to him. He was often hired by corporations

00:29:02.180 to fire people, and he's a very disagreeable person, but he's very high in conscientiousness, eh?

00:29:08.100 So, I was talking to him at one point in my lab, because I was struggling with a few students,

00:29:13.980 and who I eventually let go, and I really realized that I probably had kept them in the lab longer

00:29:20.420 than I should have, and that their poor performance was demotivating some of the people in my lab

00:29:26.320 who were very high performers, and, you know, just producing a decrement in the overall quality of our work.

00:29:31.420 And part of the reason I think I failed to take action is because I am a rather agreeable person,

00:29:37.540 and I find firing people, let's say, very distasteful.

00:29:42.880 And so I talked to my associate, my friend, about firing people, and he said,

00:29:48.500 I enjoy it.

00:29:50.520 And I said, that really surprised me.

00:29:52.960 And this is someone I admire and respect, a very competent person, by the way.

00:29:56.380 I said, well, why is that?

00:29:57.600 He said, well, you know, I go into corporations, and I ferret out the people who are kissing up and

00:30:04.120 kicking down.

00:30:05.380 I ferret out the narcissists.

00:30:07.040 I ferret out the people who, as I alluded to, take credit when they haven't done anything,

00:30:12.360 and cast aspersions on others when they have done something, and who are clearly not doing

00:30:17.200 their job.

00:30:18.180 And then also, I go after people who, for whom it would be better in some real sense to be

00:30:24.600 off doing something else.

00:30:25.960 And his continual pattern of employment for multiple years, because he was particularly

00:30:31.240 good at this, was he'd go into a corporation that was failing and start to fire people at

00:30:35.500 the bottom and then climb the hierarchy.

00:30:37.280 And then when he got too close to the top, they'd fire him, of course.

00:30:40.700 But, you know, it was really interesting to me because it's also possible that some of

00:30:44.940 these traits, the more psychopathic traits, have a positive utility socially, even speaking

00:30:52.500 morally, when they're combined with other personality traits, right?

00:30:56.980 But that are particularly, like, maybe it's not so bad to be low in agreeableness if you're

00:31:01.600 high in conscientiousness.

00:31:03.200 But maybe it's really bad to be low in agreeableness if you're really high in neuroticism or really

00:31:08.580 low in conscientiousness.

00:31:09.940 And so you can see that that tilt towards less empathy, which might make you capable, for

00:31:16.480 example, of enforcing rules, might be, well, as I said, might be extraordinarily useful, even

00:31:24.160 pro-socially under some circumstances, but very pathological under others.

00:31:28.760 Yeah, there's a movement now, I think, to question the absolute positivity of empathy.

00:31:37.480 This fellow loomed from Yale University.

00:31:40.900 I'm not sure if you haven't interviewed him yet, you should, because he points out the

00:31:48.620 overuse of empathy or inappropriate use of empathy, like letting a stranger into your

00:31:55.860 door is a simple example, but having traits that make you react, overreact, say, to blood

00:32:05.380 and guts is going to prevent you from being a surgeon.

00:32:09.140 You've got to be able to get your knife in there and slice people up and, to some extent,

00:32:16.660 ignore them if, well, up to a point if they're complaining. 0.95

00:32:23.200 Right.

00:32:23.720 But, yeah, so there are jobs in which too much empathy is going to impede your ability

00:32:34.020 to success.

00:32:36.240 So he goes through a lot of examples like that.

00:32:39.760 I suppose one of the first things that he'd do at boot camp is to try to impose certain kinds

00:32:49.920 of motivations in soldiers that are joining the army and make sure they understand that

00:32:57.140 if you don't kill first, they're going to kill you or they're going to kill your buddies.

00:33:03.560 And that should be the way you think when you're in a war.

00:33:07.720 And if you don't have that ability to reframe your normal, gentle personality, then you're

00:33:15.820 in the wrong place.

00:33:17.480 Right.

00:33:17.900 Well, and it's clearly the case that people who are very high in trait empathy, so very

00:33:22.380 high in agreeableness, they are easy to take advantage of.

00:33:25.900 And they also tend to become resentful and bitter.

00:33:29.740 At least that's been my clinical observation because it's very difficult for them to stand

00:33:33.580 up for themselves.

00:33:34.720 Right.

00:33:34.960 And so you need a certain amount of capacity for aggression.

00:33:37.960 And then there's an interesting twist here, too.

00:33:40.800 I don't know.

00:33:41.560 I read a book a while back called Billion Wicked Thoughts.

00:33:45.420 It's a very, very interesting book.

00:33:47.440 It was written by Google engineers.

00:33:49.480 And one of the things they did was analyze pornography use between men and women and with

00:33:55.780 billions of searches, literally.

00:33:58.020 And they found, which is not surprising, that men preferred visual pornography.

00:34:03.520 But females preferred literary pornography. 1.00

00:34:09.280 And they found the classic literary pornography plot, which was something like, you know, relatively

00:34:19.880 innocent but undervalued and attractive but not so obviously attractive young woman stumbles 0.99

00:34:28.060 across this sort of commanding man who has many women at his disposal.

00:34:34.980 And over time, despite his relatively high levels of aggression, he finds himself attracted

00:34:41.460 to this woman and then forms a sexual relationship with her.

00:34:46.120 It's a Beauty and the Beast plot, essentially.

00:34:48.080 But one of the things that's so interesting about their analysis was they listed the top five

00:34:54.060 occupations or characters for female sexual literature.

00:35:01.200 And they were pirate, surgeon, billionaire, vampire, and pilot.

00:35:08.900 And so those are all males who I would say are marked by, oh no, not pilot, werewolf.

00:35:15.620 Werewolf was the fifth one.

00:35:17.460 And so I think it reflects to some degree this conundrum that women have. 0.95

00:35:22.060 It's because women have to pick a man who has the capacity for aggression, enough of the 1.00

00:35:28.500 capacity for aggression to protect himself and others and to move out into the world against

00:35:33.700 a fair bit of opposition, but who's also simultaneously empathic or perhaps conscientious enough to be

00:35:41.840 caring and share.

00:35:43.020 And you can imagine that's a real knife edge, right?

00:35:45.100 Because you need a bit of a monster in your man, let's say, to keep the real monsters away,

00:35:49.700 but you don't want so much monsters so that a relationship is impossible.

00:35:53.300 And so then you could also imagine that there's overshoot on both sides of that target so that

00:35:59.940 some men become too aggressive but can appear attractive in the short term because they have

00:36:05.020 the confidence associated with that.

00:36:06.900 And some men become too agreeable.

00:36:09.240 And so they look easy to get along with and so forth, but they can't put themselves forward

00:36:13.520 and stand up for themselves.

00:36:14.680 And so another explanation for the potential emergence of, say, sadism and psychopathy is

00:36:20.700 that there's this narrow target for, especially for men to hit, doesn't account for female 1.00

00:36:25.640 psychopathy, but for men to hit, and it's easy to overshoot in either direction.

00:36:29.980 And there's going to be variability in women's choice as well. 1.00

00:36:32.580 Yeah, one of the issues that underlies...

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00:37:44.800 My work in connection with clinical psychology, which you're the expert in and I'm not, I try

00:37:55.600 to stick to so-called subclinical levels.

00:37:59.140 In other words, student bodies or workers.

00:38:03.700 These are people who are managing to get along in everyday society, and they're available in

00:38:09.940 large numbers, so you can take surveys and try to tease apart the various aspects of the

00:38:17.700 dark side.

00:38:18.960 But I do not, I'm very reticent to venture to the clinical side.

00:38:25.040 And I think that's been a source of criticism of me from clinical psychologists, that I'm

00:38:35.400 touching on areas that really belong to them and do not belong to me because I'm not a clinician.

00:38:43.460 So when we get into sexual sadism and criminal sadism, which in a sense was all people associated

00:38:55.580 with sadism up until recently, it was the only way that people thought about it.

00:39:02.300 And interesting interplays between sadism and masochism, why would it be to some extent the

00:39:08.480 same people who are into both?

00:39:12.120 I can ask these questions in surveys, but I hesitate to try to be an expert and accept what

00:39:21.660 people are saying.

00:39:23.420 Well, it's not as if the clinicians have been any more careful than the personality theorists

00:39:30.320 in elucidating the actual nature of their diagnostic categories, right?

00:39:35.340 I mean, one of the reasons I'm a clinician and a personality psychologist, I mean, one

00:39:38.620 of the reasons I find your work interesting and compelling is because you do the psychometrics

00:39:43.960 properly.

00:39:44.820 And that's not always obviously the case with clinical diagnostic categories because they're

00:39:50.480 basically holdovers from the psychiatric enterprise and they weren't derived, they weren't

00:39:55.280 extracted out of a primarily statistical model.

00:39:58.500 And so on the downside for the clinical psychologists, it's not obvious at all that we have our nosology,

00:40:04.280 our diagnostic category system straight.

00:40:07.720 And so, I mean, I'm not saying that in a cynically critical manner because it's actually a very

00:40:14.280 difficult thing to do, right?

00:40:15.980 But it seems to me that your work isn't unfairly poaching on the grounds of clinical psychologists

00:40:25.220 because somebody has to do the basic psychometric work.

00:40:28.380 It's like, well, what are the basic categories of, let's say, predatory and parasitical behavior?

00:40:34.100 Now, you can imagine that there's a place where that becomes clinically extreme and has

00:40:37.500 to be dealt with in another manner, but there's absolutely no reason not to look at its subclinical

00:40:41.380 manifestations as well.

00:40:43.040 One of the reasons I wanted to talk to you now is because I've been reading a number of

00:40:48.340 papers.

00:40:48.660 I got really interested in this idea that virtualization enables, well, maybe psychopathy, but maybe more

00:40:56.780 broadly, dark tetrad behavior.

00:40:59.060 You know, because one of the open questions is, if you're dealing with someone who has these

00:41:03.860 personality proclivities that you described, Machiavellian, narcissistic, psychopathic, and

00:41:10.100 sadistic, they obviously lack a Freudian superego in some sense.

00:41:16.580 They can't regulate their own behavior in a social manner.

00:41:20.060 Left to their own devices, they will exploit and hurt.

00:41:24.120 And so then you might say, well, what keeps people like that in check?

00:41:27.740 And one of the answers to that would be, well, the same thing that keeps the rest of us in

00:41:32.060 check, which is mechanisms built into the neurobiology of our face-to-face contact.

00:41:38.320 Like, we know that if you put people in a car, they'll be ruder to each other, to someone

00:41:45.340 in another car than they would be face-to-face on the street.

00:41:49.820 Like, there's a lot of direct inhibition built into our social interactions that keeps psychopathy

00:41:58.040 and narcissism under control.

00:41:59.780 But then what you see online is that all of that disappears, hey?

00:42:03.720 And I don't think that there's any real price to be paid for dark tetrad behavior online, especially

00:42:11.580 if it's anonymous.

00:42:12.500 And that's made me think more recently, especially as our culture tears itself apart as a consequence

00:42:19.180 of the battle between extremes on the political spectrum.

00:42:23.440 It's made me wonder how much of that's actually driven by the virtualized enabling of psychopathy

00:42:29.980 and narcissism, because, you know, it's always a problem.

00:42:34.500 One of the things people might not understand who are watching this is the incredibly high

00:42:42.060 cost that biological organisms bear in relationship to parasitical behavior.

00:42:47.660 So that'd be associated, let's say, with psychopathy.

00:42:49.640 There is good evidence, although I wouldn't say it's canonical, that the reason that sex itself 0.69

00:42:55.480 evolved was so that we could stay ahead of the parasites.

00:43:00.500 If you just clone yourself, the parasites can chase your genome down the generations.

00:43:06.320 But if you mix your genes, then the parasites have to adapt rapidly to keep up.

00:43:11.680 You can stay ahead of them.

00:43:12.740 And so sex itself was driven by parasitical behavior.

00:43:17.220 And so what that indicates is that the presence of parasites, as well as predators, throughout

00:43:22.280 our entire biological history, has presented a canonical threat to our very civilization.

00:43:27.420 And now, if it's true that virtualization enables the psychopaths and the narcissists,

00:43:33.920 then it seems to me that that produces a cardinal threat once again.

00:43:38.360 And there's been a spate of research more recently using the dark tetrad measures to investigate

00:43:45.340 such things as narcissistic self-promotion on TikTok and Instagram, but also trolling and

00:43:53.080 online bullying.

00:43:54.600 And so maybe you could tell us a little bit about what's been found on that front.

00:44:01.040 Yeah, well, again, you covered a lot of ground there, but the central point I have to totally

00:44:07.240 agree on.

00:44:08.000 And we got into a specific aspect where sadism plays a big role, and that is the trolling

00:44:16.420 online.

00:44:17.660 You get to say anything you want without repercussions.

00:44:21.120 If you said that to the person's face, you'd be in trouble for various reasons, legal and

00:44:27.780 physical reasons.

00:44:29.400 But we tried to delve into asking these people who engage in trolling online, why do you do

00:44:39.160 it?

00:44:39.660 And we ended up with the title of our paper, Trolls Just Want to Have Fun, because that

00:44:45.760 seemed to be the most common motivation.

00:44:48.100 It's just fun poking at people.

00:44:50.440 So you find a website where people are all happy and enjoying it, I don't know, a gardening

00:44:59.920 group, and you mess with them.

00:45:03.100 And that seems to be a lot of fun for certain individuals.

00:45:07.820 We correlated an interest in doing that with the dark tetrad measures, and sadism stood out

00:45:14.200 as the best predictor of liking to mess with happy people.

00:45:20.440 So having the internet has put us into trouble.

00:45:26.400 Politics is an obvious example, but just being nasty to your fellow humans is now...

00:45:37.280 A sport.

00:45:39.000 Yeah, it's a sport.

00:45:40.620 It's a hobby.

00:45:41.600 It's a pastime.

00:45:43.080 And these people tend to spend a lot of their time engaged in various similar activities.

00:45:56.080 Right.

00:45:56.480 Well, we know that 1% of the criminals commit 65% of the crimes.

00:46:01.920 And so it's a Pareto distribution like almost every other form of, let's say, creative production.

00:46:08.280 And so it's also the case in all probability that a very large proportion of the pathological

00:46:15.360 online behavior comes from a relatively small proportion of, you know, committed dark tetrad

00:46:21.640 types.

00:46:22.280 And given that they're not only not inhibited by the normal mechanisms of social discourse,

00:46:29.280 they're also rewarded because they get a tremendous amount of attention.

00:46:33.040 And I would say, I think it's reasonable to also point out that that attention is monetized

00:46:38.580 in some sense and expanded by the internal operations of social media networks themselves.

00:46:43.980 It's certainly not the case that the trolls pay a price for being provocative.

00:46:48.060 In fact, I think there's good reason to think that their attempts are more likely to be multiplied

00:46:54.160 rather than inhibited.

00:46:55.320 And that could be, depending on the degree to which we virtualize, I mean, that could pose

00:47:00.480 a real signal threat to the integrity of our peaceful political arrangements, let's say.

00:47:11.660 Yeah, it's out of hand and it's hard to track down individual contributors to malevolence online.

00:47:21.460 But one could blame it on media polarization and just the need to attract customers.

00:47:31.560 Turns out that people don't like moderate media sources.

00:47:37.220 They won't turn to that channel.

00:47:40.300 They'll turn to a channel where they can feel warm and toasty because the other people on

00:47:47.000 that channel agree with them on everything so they don't get to hear other points of view.

00:47:51.460 And many years ago, perhaps you and I were there at the time of Walter Cronkite, and there

00:47:58.160 were a few corporations online, two or three, that everybody watched, and they were more

00:48:07.780 or less down the middle.

00:48:10.020 If those were put online now, nobody would watch.

00:48:13.680 People want to watch the extreme version of their own politics.

00:48:17.960 And that's unfortunate development in technology.

00:48:23.660 Yeah.

00:48:24.060 Well, there is some, you know, there are some exceptions to that, I would say.

00:48:27.520 I mean, I've had a lot of success, let's say, with long-form dialogue on YouTube and other

00:48:33.860 people have done the same thing.

00:48:35.760 And, you know, inviting people like you to have discussions that last 90 minutes or so.

00:48:40.380 And that's a pretty comprehensive discussion, and it rewards a long-term attention span.

00:48:46.160 But it's definitely the case that there are selective pressures in relationship to attention

00:48:51.900 to gather as much impulsive attention as possible.

00:48:56.500 And, of course, there's a profit motive behind that often.

00:48:59.500 Because if you can gather people's attention, you can advertise to them.

00:49:03.180 And I'm not saying this cynically.

00:49:05.140 I'm just trying to observe the way the system is working.

00:49:07.980 If you can gather people's attention by whatever means, you can almost instantly monetize that.

00:49:13.480 And so we also have this new technological problem, which is that we have technologies

00:49:19.220 that can really reward impulsive information gathering and simultaneously monetize it.

00:49:26.500 And that means that that's fertile territory for the psychopaths and the narcissists and

00:49:30.580 the Machiavellians and the sadists to exploit.

00:49:33.600 And I think there actually, I think there's enough of that to actually undermine public trust

00:49:39.640 in general, because it makes, like, my actual life is way less contentious than my online life.

00:49:47.780 You know, they're not even in the same universe in some sense.

00:49:50.720 It's that sense of polarization.

00:49:52.200 It's really very difficult to tell now in the modern world how much of that is a mere consequence

00:49:59.140 and a mere appearance of virtualization and how much it actually reflects some fundamental disquiet.

00:50:05.360 I mean, I know they loop, but we have no way of really knowing.

00:50:09.120 And if it is true that virtualization enables psychopathy, then that's a real conundrum.

00:50:15.340 That's a real tough nut to crack.

00:50:16.840 Yeah, and it's scary in a way to think that, in a way, you're getting closer to what people

00:50:25.720 are really like in anonymous responses.

00:50:30.620 We know that from questionnaire work, that the more anonymous responses, the less desirable

00:50:37.300 the answers that you get from people are.

00:50:39.780 But it's, yeah, it does sound very cynical to think that the nasty stuff you see online

00:50:48.020 is really the human condition, which is covered up.

00:50:52.960 Well, I'm more optimistic about that, you know, because of this Pareto distribution phenomena.

00:50:58.220 I think I'm pessimistic because it looks like a very small number of bad actors can cause way

00:51:05.600 more trouble than we would have thought, right?

00:51:08.080 And that's a pessimistic idea, is that, yeah, it's only 3% who are dark tetrad types, or maybe

00:51:14.760 5%, it depends on where you put the cutoffs, let's say.

00:51:18.120 And that means 95% of people are going about their business in a decent manner.

00:51:23.100 But, and that's a very positive thing.

00:51:25.220 But the downside is, yeah, but that 5% can cause a god-awful amount of trouble.

00:51:29.560 I mean, I talked to Andy Ngo about Antifa, you know, and I'll tell you how that came about.

00:51:36.540 I was working with a group of Democrats in the U.S. to help pull the Democrat Party towards the

00:51:42.640 center, and I did that for a number of years.

00:51:46.160 And there was one topic that we used to come to a fair bit of disagreement about, and that was

00:51:52.560 the reality of Antifa.

00:51:54.860 Antifa, and the Democrats I was working with were absolutely convinced of the absolute reality

00:51:59.900 of 4chan and the right-wing conspiratorial groups, but they didn't believe that there

00:52:04.180 was really any such thing as Antifa.

00:52:06.460 And I thought, well, these were smart people, and I thought, well, why the hell do they believe

00:52:10.100 that?

00:52:10.420 And they said, well, there's always been race riots in the United States, and the degree

00:52:14.280 to which Antifa is organized is blown out of proportion, and they're not really a formal

00:52:18.180 organization, and so on and so forth.

00:52:20.560 And I thought, well, that's interesting, because some of that's true, but you could

00:52:24.180 say the same thing about the hypothetical right-wing conspiratorial groups.

00:52:29.020 So, but then I talked to Andy Ngo, who's done more to cover Antifa than any other journalist,

00:52:34.480 and I said to him, Andy, how many Antifa cells, let's say, do you think are operating in the

00:52:41.260 United States?

00:52:41.900 And he thought for a while, and he thought, well, maybe 40.

00:52:44.160 And I said, well, how many full-time equivalent employees, so to speak, do you think each

00:52:50.420 of those cells have?

00:52:52.520 And he thought, well, maybe 20.

00:52:56.180 And so, if that estimate is vaguely accurate, that's 800 people in the entire United States

00:53:03.140 as a population of 320 million.

00:53:05.500 It's really one person in 400,000, right?

00:53:09.580 And that's sort of statistically equivalent to zero.

00:53:15.580 So, you know, that's why the Democrats can say, well, that Antifa doesn't even really

00:53:19.620 exist.

00:53:20.220 But the counter-argument is, yeah, there aren't very many of them, but a small number of people

00:53:26.920 who have these dark tetrad motivations, and I'm not saying that's unique to Antifa, by

00:53:32.060 the way.

00:53:32.520 I'm talking more about the riotous troublemakers who love to dance in the street, you know.

00:53:36.840 So, if it's only one in 400,000 people, that's just an indication of how much trouble someone

00:53:43.860 who has no internal sense of restraint can make manifest if they're free of all external

00:53:50.400 social controls.

00:53:52.320 Yeah, I don't have too much to say about that, but I would like to talk a bit about extreme

00:54:00.500 niches that you brought up before and where these people end up if they have the proclivities

00:54:08.920 for one of the dark tetrad.

00:54:12.200 The proclivity for narcissists would be in the realm of politics because they want attention

00:54:20.920 and they get it, whether it's positive or negative.

00:54:24.500 It seems to work for them.

00:54:28.160 The Machiavellians, I think, are among the most interesting, though.

00:54:32.600 Stock markets, financial organizations.

00:54:37.980 And although we just saw this fellow Santos who made up his CV to get elected in Long Island,

00:54:46.980 an example of a politician who's both narcissistic, because you have to to be a politician,

00:54:54.840 and a Machiavellian, but Bernie Madoff was the classic.

00:54:59.640 He was the most popular guy in his building on Fifth Avenue.

00:55:04.140 Big smile on his face all the time.

00:55:07.360 Happy-go-lucky.

00:55:09.000 And stealing money from thousands of people.

00:55:12.040 Far more money than he could ever use.

00:55:16.760 As a billionaire, he wanted more billions.

00:55:19.740 But that's a niche in which Machiavellianism will help you get to the top.

00:55:26.160 You have to manipulate and hide and do it relatively low-key, unlike the narcissist.

00:55:34.920 So, I think we already talked about the psychopath and the sadist,

00:55:41.380 but it does play out in the occupations that one chooses to suit your niche.

00:55:51.280 Yeah, well, you can also see there that that makes the issue of leadership a complicated one, right?

00:55:56.420 Because we know that the big five personality profile of narcissists

00:56:01.660 is something like high extroversion and low agreeableness.

00:56:05.620 And so, you can see there that someone who's low in agreeableness

00:56:10.680 is going to put their viewpoint forward in a pretty aggressive manner,

00:56:14.340 and someone who's extroverted is going to be enthusiastic and captivating.

00:56:18.060 And you need those.

00:56:20.840 You can understand that there might be situations that cry out for genuine leadership

00:56:25.680 where both being extroverted and being disagreeable would be an advantage.

00:56:29.480 And, you know, that might be a situation where you hope like hell

00:56:32.480 that your extroverted, disagreeable politician is also extremely high in conscientiousness.

00:56:38.040 So that even though they might like attention and even though they might be less empathic,

00:56:42.440 then that their relative lack of empathy would pose a certain risk,

00:56:46.380 that their proclivity to abide by a set of ethical principles would override that.

00:56:51.520 Hey, everyone.

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00:57:45.560 But then you get people who fake that conscientiousness and fake competence,

00:57:50.240 which is partly what psychopaths do when they entrap women,

00:57:54.080 is to fake that competence and then to look like you're abiding by the rules 0.97

00:58:00.320 when you're just being Machiavellian and narcissistic and manipulative.

00:58:04.920 Yeah, that's fascinating to think about different combinations

00:58:07.920 of the big five, but also of the dark tetrad.

00:58:14.700 I wrote a paper on Steve Jobs, for example, some time ago.

00:58:21.720 It helps to be a genius, of course,

00:58:23.720 but if you're a full narcissist who believes you have the right idea

00:58:28.400 and the entire world is wrong about it,

00:58:32.420 everyone disagreed with him,

00:58:34.980 and he was right.

00:58:36.120 Right, well, that's a good example of that hyper-successful niche, right?

00:58:41.060 So that's a good, that's a very interesting case

00:58:43.720 because you're going to get the odd situation

00:58:45.800 where someone is narcissistic and hyper-intelligent and correct,

00:58:51.120 in which case their narcissism and their callousness, in some sense,

00:58:56.120 is absolutely what's needed to bring forth that whole set of ideas.

00:59:00.060 Well, in fact, he was fired by his own company

00:59:03.080 after having proved himself to be a genius

00:59:06.820 and changing the world in so many ways.

00:59:10.280 His own company said he was too obnoxious,

00:59:13.360 so they let him go.

00:59:15.500 Eventually, the company kind of faded out.

00:59:17.760 They had to bring him back,

00:59:19.100 but how can you be so super successful

00:59:22.360 and fired by your own team?

00:59:25.240 Classic case.

00:59:26.140 Well, you know, I know people who worked with Jobs,

00:59:30.240 and one of the things they told me

00:59:32.700 was that he was unerring in his ability to cull.

00:59:38.260 You know, so he had a very high eye for quality,

00:59:40.860 but he also didn't let empathy stop him

00:59:43.900 from killing projects he thought were counterproductive.

00:59:46.940 And that's a tough one, right?

00:59:48.320 Because you can imagine,

00:59:50.240 you can't say that if you're running a company

00:59:53.540 and you're attempting to produce something,

00:59:56.140 that keeping a faltering project going

00:59:58.880 because you don't want to hurt the feelings

01:00:00.920 of the employees by bringing it to a halt

01:00:03.200 is a moral virtue.

01:00:04.940 It's not a moral virtue.

01:00:06.240 And the reason for that, as far as I can tell,

01:00:08.040 is that you're just prolonging the agony

01:00:10.580 and awaiting the inevitable death, right?

01:00:13.940 So you have the evidence in some sense at hand,

01:00:16.620 but you're unwilling to draw

01:00:19.140 the appropriate conclusions from it.

01:00:20.880 And there is that same necessity

01:00:23.360 for discrimination and elimination

01:00:28.160 that might also be driving the capacity,

01:00:32.120 as you pointed out earlier,

01:00:33.280 of a surgeon to go into someone's body

01:00:35.160 and to get rid of the cancer, right?

01:00:37.420 Independent of the fact that they have to deal

01:00:39.340 with the blood and the gore

01:00:40.460 and the pain and the fear and all of that,

01:00:43.400 and they can't let that stop them.

01:00:44.940 Yeah, I agree totally with everything you just said.

01:00:49.960 I wanted to get back to the psychometrics

01:00:53.820 just for a moment.

01:00:56.020 I know you worked in depth on the Big Five

01:01:01.060 and separated into aspects and broke it down.

01:01:05.820 And that's, in a way,

01:01:08.660 characterizes a certain approach to personality.

01:01:12.380 I call the distinction lumpers and splitters. 1.00

01:01:18.640 And that's, to some extent,

01:01:20.820 been the pro and con of my approach.

01:01:24.640 Trying to tease apart or parse the dark side

01:01:29.440 is an approach that just made sense to us

01:01:35.180 given the overlapping literatures

01:01:37.440 that I mentioned earlier.

01:01:38.720 But there's also a tendency,

01:01:43.500 you mentioned earlier the evaluative sense,

01:01:46.520 to lump together good traits with other good traits.

01:01:50.920 The so-called halo has its correspondent devil effect.

01:01:56.740 And that is, if you learn something bad about somebody,

01:02:00.120 you naturally assume,

01:02:02.840 it's hard not to,

01:02:04.180 to think that they have all the other bad traits too.

01:02:07.460 And so there's a lot of, in a way,

01:02:13.100 competitors out there working on the dark side

01:02:16.320 who are trying to lump it together

01:02:20.100 and call it the D factor, the dark factor.

01:02:24.320 So it's collapsed them all into one

01:02:26.400 and you can array people on this one dimension.

01:02:29.980 That never appealed to me.

01:02:33.340 I think it's a lot more interesting

01:02:36.240 to break things into their components.

01:02:41.700 But it's...

01:02:42.520 How intercorrelated are the four scales on average?

01:02:47.240 And does it...

01:02:48.140 Can you extract out a single factor?

01:02:52.320 How much of the variance does that factor account for?

01:02:55.820 Yeah, excellent question.

01:02:57.400 We started off with correlations

01:03:00.840 between 0.3 and 0.5 with the dark triad.

01:03:04.360 And that is definitely all positive.

01:03:08.000 They're never negative correlations.

01:03:10.420 But to some people, that was too high,

01:03:14.340 especially 0.5 or above,

01:03:17.040 means, well, why don't you just add them together

01:03:20.200 and call it something else?

01:03:21.740 And that's what the so-called D factor people have done.

01:03:27.480 It just seems such a silly simplicity to me

01:03:31.340 that you could look at your fellow human beings 0.53

01:03:35.200 and call them,

01:03:37.440 place them at a certain position

01:03:41.320 on this single darkness

01:03:43.380 when there's so many ways of being dark.

01:03:46.760 There might be one way of being a good person,

01:03:50.800 but there's many ways of being dark

01:03:53.380 is the approach that we took.

01:03:55.980 Well, technically, what you'd want to show

01:03:58.120 is that your multiple measures

01:04:00.880 interestingly predict different outcomes

01:04:03.940 and differentially,

01:04:05.600 and you talked a little bit about occupational choice.

01:04:07.820 I mean, the rubber hits the road basically

01:04:10.360 by having you demonstrate

01:04:12.560 that your multiplicity of categories

01:04:15.980 adds predictive power to,

01:04:19.640 in some interesting way,

01:04:20.800 to the solution of some complex problem.

01:04:22.780 I mean, it certainly seems to me to be useful,

01:04:25.800 at least in principle,

01:04:27.240 to distinguish something like sadism

01:04:29.820 and positive pleasure taken in the suffering from others

01:04:32.540 from mere impulsivity.

01:04:35.140 You know, even though both of those can be problematic,

01:04:37.280 I'd also like to suggest something else

01:04:40.240 to the listeners.

01:04:43.080 We might ask ourselves,

01:04:44.940 why in some fundamental sense

01:04:47.620 are these behaviors,

01:04:49.760 these dark tetra behaviors,

01:04:51.680 properly regarded as pathological?

01:04:55.220 And I think,

01:04:56.700 especially given that you could make the case

01:04:58.540 that they have some reproductive benefits,

01:05:00.380 at least compared to certain other strategies,

01:05:02.520 but I think the issue here,

01:05:04.380 tell me what you think about this,

01:05:05.740 that it has to do,

01:05:07.560 and this is like a biology of ethics in some sense,

01:05:10.280 it has to do with iterability.

01:05:12.320 And so there's this famous study,

01:05:14.920 set of studies by Yach Panksepp,

01:05:17.360 where he analyzed the play behavior

01:05:21.540 of juvenile male rats.

01:05:25.320 And what he showed was that

01:05:26.480 if you put two juvenile rats together

01:05:29.040 and one outweighs the other by 10%,

01:05:32.100 there's about a 90% probability

01:05:34.420 that the bigger rat can pin the smaller rat.

01:05:38.480 And so if you just do that once,

01:05:40.260 the conclusion you would draw

01:05:41.840 if you were like a zero-sum biologist

01:05:45.160 and someone interested in dominance

01:05:46.760 is you'd say,

01:05:47.500 well, the bigger, stronger, meaner, 0.98

01:05:50.260 dark tetrad rat 0.87

01:05:51.720 can win the competition

01:05:54.000 and therefore has elevated himself

01:05:56.480 in the hierarchy of dominance

01:05:58.220 and is more likely to reproduce successfully.

01:06:00.960 But Panksepp, being a bit of a genius,

01:06:04.280 knew that rats lived in social communities

01:06:07.180 and had iterated interactions with one another.

01:06:11.460 And so you don't play with another rat

01:06:13.780 if you're a young rat only once,

01:06:15.300 you play with them repeatedly. 0.63

01:06:17.180 And so Panksepp paired them repeatedly.

01:06:19.740 And what he showed was

01:06:20.860 the second time you put the rats together,

01:06:23.460 the little rat had to invite the big rat to play.

01:06:26.300 And mammals have a characteristic strategy

01:06:28.800 for play invitation.

01:06:30.040 You can see that in dogs.

01:06:31.260 They sort of bounce.

01:06:32.460 And so do kids.

01:06:33.420 And so do sheep.

01:06:34.540 Like it's extremely widespread among mammals.

01:06:38.520 And so the little rat had to ask the big rat to play

01:06:41.480 and the big rat would deign to play.

01:06:43.560 But if you paired them together repeatedly, 0.70

01:06:45.760 if the big rat didn't let the little rat win

01:06:49.120 at least 30% of the time,

01:06:52.600 the little rat would stop playing.

01:06:55.420 And so I thought it was an unbelievably profound set of studies

01:06:58.880 because it indicated that there was an emergent ethos

01:07:02.000 that was intrinsic to repeated trades.

01:07:07.300 You know the economic games where you take two people

01:07:10.760 and you say, look, I'm going to give you $100

01:07:13.580 and you can offer some fraction of that to your partner.

01:07:17.320 But if he refuses, neither of you get anything.

01:07:20.800 You play that around the world

01:07:22.100 and people average out at about 50%.

01:07:24.560 And it's the case that even poor people

01:07:26.960 who need the money are very likely to reject a sharing offer

01:07:31.360 that isn't something approximating 50%.

01:07:33.860 And you might say, well, that's preposterous

01:07:36.920 because why not just take the money and leave?

01:07:39.440 And the answer is something like,

01:07:41.620 yeah, but there's an ethos of fair play

01:07:43.520 that emerges out of repeated interactions.

01:07:46.920 And your goal isn't to win a single game.

01:07:49.160 It's to win a set of iterated games.

01:07:51.060 And the problem with the psychopathic perspective

01:07:54.380 and the impulsive perspective is that

01:07:56.260 even the psychopaths themselves

01:07:59.020 sacrifice their own future

01:08:01.460 as well as other people

01:08:02.880 to the immediate gratification of their desires.

01:08:05.620 And that's just not a very sophisticated strategy, right?

01:08:08.960 Why win once when you could hypothetically win,

01:08:12.020 you know, 50% of the time, 100 times?

01:08:15.900 And so I think we can get close

01:08:18.260 to a technical description in this sense

01:08:20.380 of what constitutes pathological behavior, right?

01:08:23.000 It's pathological behavior is the proclivity

01:08:25.520 to gain in the short term,

01:08:26.860 but lose in the medium to long run.

01:08:29.780 Yeah, I've thought about this in terms of

01:08:32.020 the winner in animal groups,

01:08:38.120 the alpha male, so to speak, 0.77

01:08:40.060 is usually the meanest, nastiest of the group. 0.59

01:08:44.440 And in human groups,

01:08:47.760 the meanest, nastiest doesn't rise to the top.

01:08:50.920 You have to have allies.

01:08:53.240 So alliance building is an important component

01:08:56.500 of success in human societies.

01:08:59.080 Not so much,

01:09:00.060 it is apparently in chimpanzees,

01:09:03.520 but it's really important.

01:09:05.760 You get to the top if you can link,

01:09:09.700 associate, and get friends,

01:09:12.420 get allies to help you

01:09:14.820 in getting to the top.

01:09:17.520 Well, Franz de Waal in his work

01:09:19.880 has demonstrated quite clearly

01:09:21.920 that the stable alpha males,

01:09:25.560 like there are alpha males

01:09:26.660 who can make it to the top,

01:09:27.820 who are sort of dark tetrad chimps, right?

01:09:30.640 They'll use just brute force.

01:09:32.200 But they tend to meet

01:09:33.320 pretty damn violent ends pretty young.

01:09:36.220 Whereas the stable alphas

01:09:37.840 sometimes are smaller males

01:09:39.960 who ally themselves with powerful females, 0.99

01:09:42.660 but who are also more reciprocal

01:09:44.700 often in their interactions,

01:09:46.360 so more fair traders, let's say,

01:09:48.520 than any other individual in the group.

01:09:50.400 And so de Waal has done this lovely job

01:09:53.340 of relating, let's say,

01:09:55.580 cooperative leadership

01:09:57.120 to social stability and length of reign. 0.99

01:10:01.060 And so the psychopathic chimp 0.99

01:10:02.480 might do better than the chimp 1.00

01:10:04.700 who is only withdrawing 0.84

01:10:06.540 and never interacts at all. 0.99

01:10:08.440 But the psychopathic chimp 1.00

01:10:09.980 who relies on aggression 0.99

01:10:11.280 doesn't do nearly as well

01:10:12.500 as the reciprocal chimp 0.51

01:10:13.820 who builds a network of allies.

01:10:15.860 And so, and I, well,

01:10:18.740 I really like de Waal's work

01:10:20.060 for that reason, you know,

01:10:21.160 because it's often the fact

01:10:23.040 that people who presume

01:10:24.700 that our hierarchies

01:10:25.680 are based on power

01:10:26.620 point to, say, chimpanzees

01:10:28.360 and say, no, it's power

01:10:29.520 that sustains dominance.

01:10:31.680 It's like, no,

01:10:32.980 power can provide you

01:10:35.060 with dominance in the short run,

01:10:36.780 but it's not an optimized

01:10:38.580 long-term strategy.

01:10:40.480 And so it's reasonable

01:10:41.700 to view it in some sense

01:10:42.940 as a form of deviant pathology,

01:10:44.740 especially in its more extreme forms

01:10:46.380 because it's a self-defeating game.

01:10:49.540 Yeah, this notion of

01:10:51.220 getting people on your side

01:10:54.220 or developing allies,

01:10:56.500 of course, is essential

01:10:58.080 for politicians.

01:11:00.480 It's the one with the most voters,

01:11:03.540 the one with the most compatriots

01:11:05.500 supporting them,

01:11:06.940 money-wise and otherwise,

01:11:09.080 who gets to the top.

01:11:11.020 We, apart from Machiavelli,

01:11:13.520 we've also been drawing on

01:11:15.680 Sun Tzu,

01:11:18.180 the famous art of war writer

01:11:20.660 from China.

01:11:22.320 And as in many cases,

01:11:23.700 the Chinese got there 1.00

01:11:24.900 before the West did.

01:11:27.420 But he talked about

01:11:28.980 building alliances.

01:11:31.080 And indeed,

01:11:32.920 we tried to invoke that

01:11:36.960 in our measures.

01:11:37.940 And it turns out to be

01:11:39.840 a key for manipulation.

01:11:43.580 The Machiavellian

01:11:44.540 is well aware,

01:11:47.020 and you can see that

01:11:47.780 in some of the items

01:11:48.660 on the Mach scale,

01:11:50.340 of getting people on your side

01:11:52.140 is essential to getting ahead.

01:11:55.100 It might be the key element to it,

01:11:58.760 not standing up and leading,

01:12:01.620 but getting people

01:12:03.560 to be persuaded

01:12:08.100 to your side.

01:12:10.120 Right.

01:12:10.420 So the Machiavellian then,

01:12:12.360 in that situation,

01:12:13.420 the Machiavellian,

01:12:14.440 I would say,

01:12:15.100 is mimicking

01:12:16.560 reciprocal sociability,

01:12:18.880 right?

01:12:19.180 Because if you and I

01:12:20.620 form a relationship

01:12:21.520 that's going to be stable

01:12:22.640 over time,

01:12:23.780 it's going to be

01:12:24.820 something like,

01:12:26.220 let's say,

01:12:26.700 a 60%,

01:12:27.680 60% exchange.

01:12:29.900 You'll contribute half,

01:12:31.660 and all contribute half,

01:12:33.520 but the reason I represented

01:12:34.940 that as 60%,

01:12:36.040 or maybe 75%,

01:12:37.400 is because

01:12:37.940 if you and I engage

01:12:39.500 in reciprocal,

01:12:41.500 honest trading,

01:12:42.980 the sum total

01:12:44.500 of our activity

01:12:45.240 will exceed

01:12:45.940 the sum of our

01:12:46.740 individual activities,

01:12:47.900 right?

01:12:48.120 We can do more together

01:12:49.100 than we can do apart.

01:12:50.640 And so,

01:12:51.740 there's all sorts of sense

01:12:53.280 to be made

01:12:53.940 for the establishment

01:12:54.800 of these honest,

01:12:56.340 durable,

01:12:57.040 and reciprocal relationships.

01:12:58.200 But what that also means

01:12:59.840 is that if most people

01:13:01.300 establish those,

01:13:03.300 then people who only act

01:13:04.980 as if they're establishing them

01:13:06.720 can capitalize on that.

01:13:08.320 Just like the narcissists 0.97

01:13:09.760 and the psychopaths, 0.99

01:13:11.200 with their false confidence,

01:13:13.600 can mimic competence

01:13:15.140 and fool, 0.85

01:13:16.260 well, 0.99

01:13:16.700 there's good literature evidence,

01:13:18.260 for example,

01:13:18.860 that the dark tetrad types,

01:13:21.060 broadly speaking,

01:13:21.880 are particularly good

01:13:22.840 if they're male

01:13:23.680 at fooling young women.

01:13:25.500 You know,

01:13:25.680 as women get older, 1.00

01:13:26.500 they get better

01:13:27.920 at separating out

01:13:28.760 the narcissists

01:13:29.640 from the competent men.

01:13:31.580 But initially,

01:13:32.860 because the narcissists

01:13:33.920 have this confidence

01:13:35.180 that is a marker

01:13:36.520 of competence,

01:13:37.360 even though not

01:13:38.020 an invariable marker,

01:13:40.100 they can easily be fooled.

01:13:42.160 And so,

01:13:43.560 that opens up

01:13:46.220 the landscape

01:13:46.780 of cooperatives

01:13:47.780 to exploitation

01:13:48.840 by a small minority

01:13:50.900 of predators 0.96

01:13:52.580 and parasites.

01:13:53.300 So,

01:13:54.720 what else have you found

01:13:55.980 out on the social media front?

01:13:58.100 And where do you think

01:13:59.060 the interesting research is?

01:14:01.280 Where's the interesting research

01:14:02.720 going on in that area?

01:14:04.320 And do you have any sense

01:14:06.900 of what sort of constraints

01:14:08.740 need to be put in place

01:14:10.440 in online forums

01:14:13.760 to keep the psychopaths

01:14:15.520 under control?

01:14:16.220 Like,

01:14:16.420 I've come out recently

01:14:17.480 against anonymity

01:14:18.840 because my sense,

01:14:21.340 I've read tens of thousands

01:14:22.660 of online comments,

01:14:25.200 my sense is that

01:14:26.420 a radical proportion

01:14:29.620 of anonymous posters

01:14:31.360 have these dark

01:14:32.800 tetrad traits.

01:14:33.820 And I know there's

01:14:34.340 a research literature

01:14:35.140 that actually indicates

01:14:36.180 that as well.

01:14:36.860 And so,

01:14:38.800 I've been attacked

01:14:39.620 for that

01:14:39.980 because people think

01:14:41.600 that,

01:14:41.940 you know,

01:14:42.820 their right to free speech

01:14:44.100 also involves

01:14:45.560 this right

01:14:46.400 to anonymous posting.

01:14:47.940 And I can understand

01:14:48.820 that argument,

01:14:49.520 but the problem is

01:14:50.240 it opens up,

01:14:51.720 it does seem to me

01:14:52.600 to open up the landscape

01:14:53.540 to the predatory parasite types 0.69

01:14:56.100 and that's a real problem.

01:14:57.900 So,

01:14:58.340 have you thought about,

01:14:59.520 like,

01:15:00.360 what have you seen

01:15:01.720 that you regard

01:15:02.880 as a credible deterrence,

01:15:05.140 if any,

01:15:05.680 on the virtual side

01:15:07.440 to the dominance

01:15:09.220 and proliferation

01:15:10.680 of dark tetrad behavior?

01:15:15.700 No,

01:15:16.660 really no solutions

01:15:19.440 have come to mind.

01:15:22.860 It seems out of control

01:15:25.520 when you go to a website

01:15:27.480 and ask for comments

01:15:31.220 which is really

01:15:33.900 trying to get feedback

01:15:35.060 to whatever

01:15:35.800 is on your site.

01:15:38.000 It seems,

01:15:39.480 I think somebody calculated

01:15:41.160 it takes about

01:15:42.880 10 comments

01:15:43.960 before someone says,

01:15:46.320 oh yeah, 1.00

01:15:46.740 fuck you. 1.00

01:15:48.320 Yeah, 1.00

01:15:48.800 well,

01:15:49.180 so you're talking about

01:15:50.600 this proclivity

01:15:51.860 of open online discourse

01:15:54.420 to turn into

01:15:55.140 a kind of swarm

01:15:56.340 and characterized

01:15:57.600 by the presence of,

01:15:59.800 well,

01:15:59.900 I really do think

01:16:00.540 it heats up

01:16:01.100 the whole political environment

01:16:02.200 because,

01:16:03.000 you know,

01:16:03.240 you alluded to earlier

01:16:04.340 the fact that

01:16:04.980 there's lots of things

01:16:05.760 people won't say in person,

01:16:07.780 partly for legal reasons

01:16:09.020 but also partly

01:16:09.900 for physical reasons.

01:16:11.980 And both the legal

01:16:12.960 and the physical constraints

01:16:14.540 are removed

01:16:15.420 in the virtualized world

01:16:17.340 and that does seem

01:16:18.760 to produce

01:16:19.700 an unbelievable

01:16:20.680 flowering

01:16:23.540 of pathological commentary

01:16:24.960 and then I really do

01:16:26.160 believe that

01:16:27.460 that makes everyone

01:16:28.480 think the world

01:16:29.620 and the people in it

01:16:30.940 are a lot worse

01:16:31.900 than they really are

01:16:33.040 because it magnifies

01:16:34.600 the effect of these,

01:16:35.800 this tiny minority

01:16:36.740 especially the sadists,

01:16:38.400 you know.

01:16:38.960 It's been so interesting

01:16:39.880 to me to watch

01:16:40.580 your concept

01:16:41.620 of dark triad

01:16:42.600 expand to take

01:16:43.740 into account

01:16:44.420 that positive delight

01:16:45.620 and suffering

01:16:46.180 because I don't think

01:16:47.240 you can really understand

01:16:48.560 like radical evil

01:16:50.400 by merely making,

01:16:52.840 making reference

01:16:54.660 to narcissism

01:16:55.600 and instrumental

01:16:56.920 malchiavellianism

01:16:57.880 and even psychopathy.

01:16:59.080 You need pleasure

01:17:00.360 and suffering

01:17:01.040 to really add

01:17:01.840 that last,

01:17:03.240 you know,

01:17:04.160 nail into the coffin

01:17:05.380 so to speak.

01:17:07.340 Yeah,

01:17:07.980 one interesting

01:17:08.780 goal we had

01:17:10.980 was to try

01:17:12.500 to find 0.82

01:17:13.220 the female sadists 1.00

01:17:15.100 on all of, 0.97

01:17:17.520 on all four

01:17:18.500 of these components.

01:17:20.920 We've,

01:17:21.680 males score higher 0.99

01:17:22.980 and even in sadism

01:17:26.440 we figured

01:17:27.780 there's the mean girls 1.00

01:17:29.720 phenomenon.

01:17:30.900 We all have this sense 0.98

01:17:32.700 that women can be nasty 1.00

01:17:34.420 in different ways 0.97

01:17:36.100 perhaps

01:17:36.500 and so we tried

01:17:39.400 to develop items

01:17:41.860 especially with my colleague

01:17:43.540 Erin Buckles 1.00

01:17:44.440 at the University

01:17:45.740 of Winnipeg.

01:17:46.500 She's working on this

01:17:47.620 and so is Tracy

01:17:49.380 Viancour

01:17:50.200 at Ottawa U.

01:17:52.200 They are looking

01:17:53.580 at relational aggression.

01:17:56.700 Right.

01:17:56.920 So women may use 1.00

01:17:57.920 different ways

01:17:59.740 not physical

01:18:01.180 or less physical

01:18:02.960 and gossiping

01:18:06.220 for example

01:18:06.940 spreading,

01:18:08.160 spreading lies.

01:18:10.840 There are a few others

01:18:12.860 that,

01:18:13.580 that exploit

01:18:16.460 the verbal abilities

01:18:18.500 of women

01:18:19.120 and allow them 0.99

01:18:21.040 to be nasty

01:18:22.960 to people

01:18:23.600 that they think

01:18:24.460 deserve it

01:18:26.420 and so those people

01:18:28.720 are working

01:18:29.340 actively

01:18:31.700 on trying

01:18:32.880 to get

01:18:33.460 a measure

01:18:34.100 of sadism

01:18:34.800 that would

01:18:36.320 apply to women

01:18:37.640 even more

01:18:38.880 than to men

01:18:39.680 because

01:18:40.620 I wonder if that

01:18:41.520 would involve

01:18:43.040 pleasure in exclusion.

01:18:46.120 You know,

01:18:46.300 I mean,

01:18:46.560 it's definitely

01:18:47.180 the case that

01:18:48.120 well,

01:18:49.220 if you use time out

01:18:50.100 on a child

01:18:50.720 one of the reasons

01:18:51.400 it works

01:18:51.960 is because

01:18:52.420 it's technically

01:18:53.160 a punishment.

01:18:54.080 It produces

01:18:54.740 something akin to pain

01:18:56.080 but the pain

01:18:57.040 is essentially

01:18:57.660 social,

01:18:58.240 it's involuntary

01:18:59.300 social isolation

01:19:00.260 and so if you

01:19:01.680 exclude someone

01:19:02.560 which is what

01:19:03.140 the mean girl 0.97

01:19:03.760 types do,

01:19:04.700 right,

01:19:05.360 that's their primary,

01:19:07.120 this reputation

01:19:08.080 destruction

01:19:08.700 and exclusion

01:19:09.440 seems to be

01:19:10.240 their particular

01:19:10.840 bailiwick.

01:19:11.440 You see that

01:19:11.860 with female

01:19:12.380 antisocial behavior

01:19:13.480 and there is a pain

01:19:15.040 associated with that

01:19:16.120 which is the pain

01:19:16.780 of social rejection

01:19:17.640 and it's not trivial.

01:19:19.420 It's very,

01:19:19.960 very hard on people

01:19:20.900 and so you could

01:19:22.060 imagine that

01:19:22.700 positive delight

01:19:24.280 in observing

01:19:25.420 the fruits

01:19:25.980 of social exclusion

01:19:27.180 might be a

01:19:28.180 canonical characteristic

01:19:29.240 of female sadism. 0.86

01:19:31.860 Yeah, 0.84

01:19:32.500 that's a good idea

01:19:33.420 to focus on that

01:19:34.760 because we know

01:19:36.400 that male friendships

01:19:37.540 are more based

01:19:38.560 on common interests.

01:19:40.740 Female friendships

01:19:41.520 are more of a bonding,

01:19:44.060 an emotional bonding

01:19:45.280 and therefore

01:19:46.080 the exclusion

01:19:46.920 tactic

01:19:48.580 would be much

01:19:49.580 more devastating

01:19:50.320 for women.

01:19:52.300 Good idea.

01:19:54.000 Yeah,

01:19:54.320 yeah,

01:19:54.500 so I studied

01:19:56.540 the development

01:19:57.380 of male and female

01:19:58.440 antisocial behavior

01:19:59.420 for a long time

01:20:00.400 and it's pretty obvious

01:20:02.020 that female 1.00

01:20:03.820 antisocial types

01:20:05.120 by and large

01:20:06.100 are less

01:20:06.780 sort of impulsively

01:20:09.100 criminal

01:20:09.720 than males are

01:20:10.680 which is why

01:20:11.240 there aren't

01:20:11.660 very many females 0.98

01:20:12.540 in jail

01:20:13.160 but that ability

01:20:15.040 to denigrate

01:20:16.340 and to gossip

01:20:17.200 and to destroy

01:20:18.180 reputation

01:20:18.740 is much more

01:20:20.400 characteristic

01:20:20.980 of the female

01:20:21.720 antisocial types

01:20:22.700 and they can be

01:20:23.420 they can be

01:20:24.100 really really good

01:20:24.940 at it

01:20:25.280 and the frightening

01:20:26.160 thing about that

01:20:26.980 too

01:20:27.300 to some degree

01:20:28.580 is that

01:20:29.060 you know

01:20:30.060 male aggression

01:20:31.020 of the physical

01:20:32.460 sort

01:20:32.880 doesn't scale

01:20:33.880 worth a damn

01:20:34.460 on social media

01:20:35.300 because you can't

01:20:36.140 use physical

01:20:36.760 aggression

01:20:37.160 on social media

01:20:38.100 but the female 1.00

01:20:39.400 pattern of

01:20:39.980 antisocial behavior

01:20:40.980 which is reputation

01:20:41.960 destruction

01:20:42.620 and social exclusion

01:20:44.420 man that scales

01:20:45.820 like a charm

01:20:46.600 on social media

01:20:47.960 especially because

01:20:49.280 of what you

01:20:50.000 described as

01:20:50.720 the negative

01:20:51.320 halo effect

01:20:52.380 you know

01:20:53.040 and I've really

01:20:53.580 noticed this

01:20:54.320 I should be

01:20:55.600 very resistant

01:20:57.980 to that negative

01:20:58.820 halo effect

01:20:59.620 when I pick out

01:21:00.740 my guests

01:21:01.280 for my podcast

01:21:02.240 because I have

01:21:04.380 had a lot of

01:21:04.900 guests on my

01:21:05.420 podcast

01:21:05.760 and now and

01:21:06.900 then I talk

01:21:08.100 to people

01:21:08.540 who've been

01:21:09.260 mobbed

01:21:11.100 excluded

01:21:12.160 or had their

01:21:12.840 reputation damaged

01:21:13.900 for one reason

01:21:14.780 or another

01:21:15.300 you know

01:21:16.320 and even when

01:21:16.980 I know

01:21:17.440 perfectly well

01:21:18.480 that there's

01:21:19.360 a high probability

01:21:20.240 that they've been

01:21:21.040 lied about

01:21:21.880 and that they've

01:21:22.720 been the target

01:21:23.340 of this kind

01:21:23.920 of malicious

01:21:24.380 gossip

01:21:25.020 there's still

01:21:26.200 a strong

01:21:26.980 proclivity

01:21:28.140 in me

01:21:28.580 that I have

01:21:29.140 to fight

01:21:29.720 to overcome

01:21:30.500 not to assume

01:21:32.420 something like

01:21:33.260 well where

01:21:34.400 there's smoke

01:21:35.080 there's fire

01:21:35.960 you know

01:21:36.940 and you don't

01:21:37.460 have to sully

01:21:38.360 someone's reputation

01:21:39.640 much

01:21:40.420 before

01:21:41.680 you raise

01:21:43.160 the cost

01:21:43.920 that other

01:21:44.380 people need

01:21:45.020 to bear

01:21:45.420 to interact

01:21:46.080 with them

01:21:46.440 right

01:21:46.620 I mean

01:21:46.880 we all have

01:21:47.660 in principle

01:21:49.260 thousands of

01:21:49.980 people we could

01:21:50.560 interact with

01:21:51.400 and so we're

01:21:52.500 always looking

01:21:53.060 for a reason

01:21:53.700 in some sense

01:21:54.420 not to interact

01:21:55.620 with people

01:21:56.200 and if a terrible

01:21:57.740 rumor has spread

01:21:58.820 about someone

01:21:59.620 well the cost

01:22:01.600 to me to avoiding

01:22:02.480 that person

01:22:03.060 can be very very

01:22:03.880 low but the cost

01:22:05.200 to that person

01:22:05.820 if everyone avoids

01:22:06.780 them is unbelievably

01:22:07.640 high

01:22:08.200 yeah most people

01:22:10.420 care about

01:22:12.000 how a person

01:22:13.160 treats them 0.92

01:22:14.040 specifically

01:22:14.800 and they can

01:22:15.680 overlook

01:22:16.440 rumors

01:22:19.480 often

01:22:20.660 because the

01:22:22.480 other person

01:22:23.060 has treated

01:22:23.580 them

01:22:24.140 personally

01:22:25.020 well

01:22:25.580 so that's

01:22:26.860 that's a

01:22:27.840 dynamic

01:22:28.260 that works

01:22:28.900 in the other

01:22:29.360 direction

01:22:29.900 to cut down

01:22:31.920 on the negative

01:22:32.640 effect of rumors

01:22:33.860 and gossip

01:22:35.960 that sort of thing

01:22:36.980 right assume

01:22:37.780 assuming that you

01:22:38.620 actually have

01:22:39.300 that personal

01:22:39.960 relationship

01:22:40.580 you know

01:22:40.940 one of the things

01:22:41.840 I've also seen

01:22:42.920 as a consequence

01:22:43.880 of virtualization

01:22:44.860 you know

01:22:45.160 if I'm

01:22:45.580 if I'm working

01:22:46.540 with people

01:22:47.200 virtually

01:22:47.780 and so we

01:22:49.560 haven't established

01:22:50.340 that kind of

01:22:51.020 personal relationship

01:22:51.980 if any issue

01:22:53.920 comes up

01:22:54.460 that's negative

01:22:55.280 it seems to have

01:22:56.640 a larger effect

01:22:57.540 than it would

01:22:58.220 if we had

01:22:59.140 established

01:22:59.820 you know

01:23:00.740 a long-term

01:23:01.420 more personal

01:23:02.140 face-to-face

01:23:02.840 interaction

01:23:03.400 so as long as

01:23:04.380 things are going

01:23:04.940 smoothly

01:23:05.480 the virtual

01:23:06.380 interaction

01:23:06.920 seems to go

01:23:07.540 well

01:23:07.760 but it's

01:23:08.080 really easy

01:23:08.880 for anything

01:23:10.000 negative

01:23:10.460 to be

01:23:11.440 magnified

01:23:12.800 and I think

01:23:13.760 it's partly

01:23:14.200 because

01:23:14.560 you don't have

01:23:15.960 that buffer

01:23:16.720 that you just

01:23:17.380 described

01:23:17.880 which is maybe

01:23:18.520 something like

01:23:19.220 the evidence

01:23:20.220 of repeated

01:23:20.860 interactions

01:23:21.560 face-to-face

01:23:22.540 evidence of

01:23:23.780 repeated acts

01:23:24.400 of kindness

01:23:24.920 and so forth

01:23:25.720 so that you

01:23:26.280 have that

01:23:26.720 as a

01:23:27.300 data body

01:23:28.140 to offset

01:23:29.460 the negative

01:23:31.020 event against

01:23:32.040 yeah

01:23:34.140 right on

01:23:35.360 on all

01:23:35.740 of those

01:23:36.280 points

01:23:37.160 I did

01:23:38.900 want to

01:23:39.560 talk a

01:23:41.780 little bit

01:23:42.180 about

01:23:42.660 your

01:23:43.920 work

01:23:45.000 on

01:23:45.640 the big

01:23:46.280 five

01:23:46.940 with respect

01:23:47.980 to

01:23:48.540 the challenges

01:23:50.480 to the big

01:23:51.540 five

01:23:52.100 as well as

01:23:53.260 the challenges

01:23:53.880 to my work

01:23:55.000 kind of

01:23:57.060 dovetail

01:23:58.020 in an

01:23:58.440 interesting

01:23:58.860 way

01:23:59.440 and that

01:24:00.340 is

01:24:00.840 although

01:24:01.660 the big

01:24:02.240 five

01:24:02.760 has become

01:24:03.480 the consensus

01:24:04.260 for the

01:24:05.420 broad

01:24:05.960 personality

01:24:06.720 traits

01:24:07.440 so big

01:24:08.960 fivers

01:24:09.520 mostly assume

01:24:11.140 that they've

01:24:11.660 covered it

01:24:12.160 all

01:24:12.620 because they're

01:24:13.660 working at

01:24:14.120 such a high

01:24:14.640 level

01:24:15.020 and

01:24:16.260 people

01:24:17.140 like me

01:24:17.980 who are

01:24:18.320 working

01:24:18.860 from time

01:24:20.120 to time

01:24:20.580 on individual

01:24:21.260 traits

01:24:22.000 that would

01:24:22.960 be farther

01:24:23.680 down the

01:24:24.260 hierarchy

01:24:24.860 of

01:24:26.140 the

01:24:28.300 personality

01:24:29.500 space

01:24:30.340 now it

01:24:31.200 turns out

01:24:31.680 that you

01:24:32.140 can add

01:24:32.740 at least

01:24:33.120 one other

01:24:33.720 dimension

01:24:34.280 to the

01:24:35.260 big

01:24:35.460 five

01:24:35.900 and that's

01:24:37.080 been

01:24:37.320 contributed

01:24:37.820 by Ashton

01:24:38.620 and Lee

01:24:39.040 to

01:24:39.500 Canadian

01:24:40.480 researchers

01:24:41.080 who have

01:24:41.660 to some

01:24:42.060 extent

01:24:42.600 eaten away

01:24:43.800 at the

01:24:44.180 popularity

01:24:44.840 of the

01:24:45.160 big

01:24:45.340 five

01:24:45.800 by

01:24:46.880 talking

01:24:47.720 about

01:24:48.020 the

01:24:48.180 big

01:24:48.340 six

01:24:48.860 or the

01:24:49.460 hexaco

01:24:50.180 and what

01:24:53.140 they've

01:24:53.460 added

01:24:53.740 is a

01:24:54.380 dimension

01:24:54.740 called

01:24:55.320 the

01:24:55.780 humility

01:24:57.540 honesty

01:24:58.740 humility

01:24:59.400 which was a

01:25:00.640 poor choice

01:25:01.240 I thought

01:25:01.700 but it

01:25:03.040 turns out

01:25:03.760 that that

01:25:04.460 extra dimension

01:25:05.340 they added

01:25:06.100 subsumes

01:25:07.260 all of the

01:25:08.080 dark traits

01:25:08.900 that I've been

01:25:09.440 working on

01:25:10.160 oh I didn't

01:25:11.120 know

01:25:11.300 I wanted

01:25:11.700 to ask

01:25:12.240 you that

01:25:12.500 when was

01:25:13.400 that

01:25:13.600 discovered

01:25:14.160 that has

01:25:16.220 been

01:25:16.780 coming to

01:25:18.640 light over

01:25:19.120 the last

01:25:19.500 five years

01:25:20.280 and so

01:25:22.000 so I've

01:25:23.320 certainly

01:25:23.640 turned to

01:25:24.740 favoring the

01:25:25.820 big six

01:25:26.440 instead of the

01:25:27.200 big five

01:25:27.940 and in

01:25:28.900 some of my

01:25:29.380 recent work

01:25:30.200 in terms of

01:25:31.620 we know the

01:25:32.340 personality space

01:25:33.600 is rather

01:25:34.340 amorphous

01:25:36.180 and you

01:25:38.180 can rotate

01:25:38.900 dimensions

01:25:39.600 in multiple

01:25:40.560 ways to

01:25:41.460 suit your

01:25:41.980 fancy

01:25:42.480 but this

01:25:43.820 one

01:25:44.320 suits me

01:25:45.620 because

01:25:46.040 it shows

01:25:47.900 where the

01:25:48.960 dark traits

01:25:49.680 fall

01:25:50.400 with respect

01:25:51.420 to a

01:25:52.260 comprehensive

01:25:53.020 personality space

01:25:54.220 they all fall

01:25:55.200 together under

01:25:56.040 this one

01:25:57.260 dimension

01:25:57.800 honesty

01:25:58.680 humility

01:25:59.320 and so I

01:26:01.380 really appreciated

01:26:02.580 the

01:26:03.020 Ashton and

01:26:04.820 Lee

01:26:05.040 for

01:26:05.500 now do you

01:26:06.020 do you think

01:26:06.940 that's because

01:26:07.860 Ashton and

01:26:08.560 Lee

01:26:08.760 is it because

01:26:09.760 they included

01:26:10.540 in some sense

01:26:12.000 some of the

01:26:12.900 originally

01:26:13.380 excluded words

01:26:14.900 from their

01:26:16.080 statistical samples

01:26:17.400 of adjectives

01:26:18.140 the ones that

01:26:18.640 are more

01:26:18.960 evaluative

01:26:19.560 because I mean

01:26:20.140 your phrases

01:26:21.480 or sentences

01:26:22.580 are really

01:26:24.080 quite evaluative

01:26:25.020 on the moral

01:26:25.620 dimension

01:26:26.740 and so they

01:26:27.300 wouldn't have

01:26:27.660 been considered

01:26:28.200 in the initial

01:26:28.780 big five

01:26:29.280 corpus

01:26:29.720 and then

01:26:30.280 honesty

01:26:30.600 humility

01:26:31.040 seems to

01:26:31.500 be kind

01:26:31.800 of in the

01:26:32.120 middle of

01:26:32.520 that

01:26:32.760 right

01:26:33.000 because

01:26:33.320 it's

01:26:33.920 obviously

01:26:34.320 better

01:26:34.940 morally

01:26:35.460 to be

01:26:35.900 honest

01:26:36.200 and humble

01:26:36.620 than to

01:26:36.980 be

01:26:37.140 dishonest 1.00

01:26:37.780 and arrogant 1.00

01:26:38.340 and so 1.00

01:26:39.020 you're

01:26:39.260 sneaking

01:26:39.620 there

01:26:40.100 or stepping

01:26:40.840 into the

01:26:41.240 domain

01:26:41.580 of ethical

01:26:42.520 categorization

01:26:43.500 but I wanted

01:26:44.420 to ask you

01:26:45.000 actually

01:26:45.360 like if you

01:26:45.880 if you

01:26:46.440 throw your

01:26:47.200 your sentences

01:26:48.420 into a

01:26:49.340 sentence level

01:26:50.240 big five

01:26:51.020 like the

01:26:51.680 ocean model

01:26:52.900 do the

01:26:54.460 I think

01:26:56.100 what you just

01:26:56.600 said is that

01:26:57.100 the individual

01:26:57.660 sentences

01:26:58.260 will line up

01:26:59.100 the dark

01:26:59.520 triad or dark

01:27:00.200 tetrad sentences

01:27:00.960 will line up

01:27:01.740 on a dimension

01:27:02.380 that's the opposite

01:27:03.140 side of honesty

01:27:03.920 humility

01:27:04.400 do they break out

01:27:06.100 across other

01:27:07.060 factors as well

01:27:08.500 or like how much

01:27:10.600 does honesty

01:27:11.200 humility

01:27:11.760 subsume the

01:27:12.840 dark triad

01:27:14.420 on the negative

01:27:15.060 side

01:27:15.540 well it's pretty

01:27:18.160 well it's pretty

01:27:18.180 much

01:27:18.680 the whole

01:27:20.660 thing is there

01:27:22.420 under honesty

01:27:23.700 humility

01:27:24.200 they do have a

01:27:25.120 couple of other

01:27:25.940 negative traits

01:27:28.000 in there

01:27:28.760 so there's a

01:27:30.180 slightly broader

01:27:31.200 which

01:27:31.840 suggests maybe

01:27:33.380 we could add

01:27:34.500 a couple of other

01:27:35.700 negative traits

01:27:36.760 to our

01:27:37.400 pantheon

01:27:38.260 of

01:27:38.780 of aversive

01:27:40.260 personalities

01:27:41.040 that's one

01:27:41.660 direction to look

01:27:43.060 in anyway

01:27:43.720 it's interesting

01:27:45.700 what you say

01:27:46.320 about the

01:27:46.980 pulling out

01:27:48.880 the negative

01:27:49.720 traits

01:27:50.420 which

01:27:51.040 Cattell did

01:27:52.760 many years

01:27:53.400 ago

01:27:53.820 and

01:27:54.300 Teligan

01:27:54.840 and a few

01:27:55.420 others

01:27:55.900 have pursued

01:27:56.520 that

01:27:57.000 and indeed

01:27:58.160 I think

01:27:58.800 that's there

01:28:00.000 if one looks

01:28:01.240 hard enough

01:28:01.920 that the work

01:28:02.500 of earlier

01:28:03.160 personality

01:28:04.140 researchers

01:28:04.720 the big

01:28:05.820 seven

01:28:06.280 was available

01:28:07.540 in the 70s

01:28:08.620 and one

01:28:09.740 of those

01:28:10.320 looked like

01:28:11.440 looked like

01:28:13.760 a dark

01:28:14.200 personality

01:28:14.660 factor

01:28:15.480 so one

01:28:16.440 that would

01:28:16.940 make an

01:28:17.460 interesting

01:28:17.820 paper to

01:28:18.680 to track

01:28:19.580 that issue

01:28:20.280 interesting

01:28:21.360 you put that

01:28:21.960 together

01:28:22.480 has anybody

01:28:23.500 done a

01:28:24.140 large scale

01:28:25.220 compilation

01:28:28.020 of the dark

01:28:29.240 tetrad items

01:28:30.140 with the

01:28:31.420 hexagon

01:28:31.800 model like

01:28:32.460 on thousands

01:28:33.020 and thousands

01:28:33.540 of people

01:28:34.060 have you done

01:28:34.620 that yet

01:28:35.200 others have

01:28:37.360 done that

01:28:37.940 yeah

01:28:38.260 yeah

01:28:39.460 it's there

01:28:40.140 the Germans

01:28:42.360 have always

01:28:43.800 been known

01:28:44.280 as good

01:28:44.720 psychometricians 0.94

01:28:45.700 and they've

01:28:47.240 shown in a

01:28:47.880 number of

01:28:48.340 large scale

01:28:48.880 studies

01:28:49.620 that both

01:28:50.620 in German

01:28:51.260 and in

01:28:52.000 English

01:28:52.500 they can work

01:28:53.240 as well

01:28:53.640 in English

01:28:54.220 have

01:28:55.340 show that

01:28:56.720 clear pattern

01:28:57.460 oh yeah

01:28:58.460 okay well

01:28:58.940 that's really

01:28:59.420 worthwhile

01:28:59.800 knowing

01:29:00.280 so

01:29:01.600 what

01:29:02.560 what forms

01:29:04.100 of behavior

01:29:04.900 do you think

01:29:05.620 are most

01:29:06.180 powerfully

01:29:06.860 predicted

01:29:07.580 by the

01:29:09.820 dark

01:29:10.460 tetrad

01:29:10.920 questionnaires

01:29:11.800 like the

01:29:13.960 sorts of

01:29:14.360 things that

01:29:14.700 people might

01:29:15.200 encounter in

01:29:15.800 their day-to-day

01:29:16.360 life if we

01:29:17.040 can bring this

01:29:17.580 to life for

01:29:18.280 people

01:29:18.700 we're focusing

01:29:20.580 on a set of

01:29:21.240 personality

01:29:21.700 attributes

01:29:22.960 what are you

01:29:23.600 likely to

01:29:24.100 experience if

01:29:24.780 you encounter

01:29:25.360 someone who

01:29:26.060 is characterized

01:29:27.220 by a plethora

01:29:28.220 of these

01:29:28.840 of these

01:29:30.240 characteristics

01:29:31.680 well that's

01:29:34.800 been

01:29:35.220 it's kind

01:29:35.980 of a

01:29:36.220 summary of

01:29:37.060 our goals

01:29:38.240 in my

01:29:38.800 laboratory

01:29:39.360 and that

01:29:39.780 is we

01:29:40.700 want to

01:29:41.080 develop

01:29:41.420 practical

01:29:42.240 measurement

01:29:42.940 instruments

01:29:43.880 one can

01:29:45.960 find a lot

01:29:47.480 of interesting

01:29:48.020 things in

01:29:49.340 Freud's

01:29:50.740 thanatos

01:29:51.360 and Jung's

01:29:52.340 shadow

01:29:54.560 shadow

01:29:55.160 but you're

01:29:56.080 not going to

01:29:56.500 be able to

01:29:57.060 ask people

01:29:57.660 about those

01:29:58.260 in a job

01:29:58.780 interview

01:29:59.180 so what we

01:30:00.480 want are

01:30:01.180 measures that

01:30:01.900 can be

01:30:02.320 applied to

01:30:03.180 ordinary

01:30:04.060 people

01:30:04.660 whether

01:30:04.980 they're

01:30:06.300 job

01:30:09.480 selection

01:30:10.140 you want

01:30:11.140 certain kinds

01:30:11.780 of people

01:30:12.260 and sometimes

01:30:13.060 you want a

01:30:13.680 little bit of

01:30:14.100 the dark

01:30:14.480 side

01:30:14.820 sometimes

01:30:15.920 not

01:30:16.580 even in

01:30:19.660 these romantic

01:30:20.540 websites

01:30:21.900 where you're

01:30:23.060 pairing up

01:30:23.720 people

01:30:24.180 you want to

01:30:25.300 know a little

01:30:25.760 bit about

01:30:26.300 the potential

01:30:26.900 partners

01:30:27.520 the dark

01:30:30.360 side is

01:30:30.880 starting to

01:30:31.380 prove useful

01:30:32.180 there

01:30:32.980 so practical

01:30:36.120 measures

01:30:36.820 that you

01:30:38.400 can present

01:30:40.260 to large

01:30:41.960 groups

01:30:42.580 or

01:30:43.140 diagnose

01:30:44.560 people

01:30:45.340 is what

01:30:47.440 we've been

01:30:47.860 aiming for 0.92

01:30:48.580 and so

01:30:49.400 the psychometrics

01:30:50.680 have been

01:30:51.260 the most

01:30:53.280 important thing

01:30:54.000 getting it

01:30:54.520 right

01:30:54.860 so we

01:30:55.700 we tried

01:30:56.300 in

01:30:56.560 california

01:30:57.540 on that

01:30:58.020 front

01:30:58.300 this might

01:30:59.060 be something

01:30:59.560 you'd be

01:31:00.400 interested in

01:31:01.120 methodologically

01:31:01.920 so i put

01:31:03.260 together a

01:31:03.980 behavioral

01:31:05.000 predictive

01:31:05.560 battery that

01:31:06.400 was very

01:31:07.840 short

01:31:08.260 cognitive

01:31:08.760 analysis

01:31:09.220 which is

01:31:09.760 basically the

01:31:10.360 raven's

01:31:10.780 progressive

01:31:11.160 matrices

01:31:11.700 revised

01:31:12.320 we made

01:31:13.640 our own

01:31:13.920 matrices

01:31:14.320 but we got

01:31:14.880 a good

01:31:15.120 central measure

01:31:15.840 of general

01:31:16.320 cognitive

01:31:16.720 ability

01:31:17.180 and then a

01:31:18.100 good fake

01:31:18.700 proof measure

01:31:19.460 of the big

01:31:20.000 five

01:31:20.520 and we

01:31:21.360 we made

01:31:21.880 it fake

01:31:22.260 proof by

01:31:22.720 forcing people

01:31:23.520 to choose

01:31:24.100 between

01:31:24.480 positive

01:31:25.040 descriptors

01:31:25.900 or between

01:31:27.040 negative

01:31:27.480 descriptors

01:31:28.100 we lost

01:31:28.540 a degree

01:31:28.940 of freedom

01:31:29.400 but we

01:31:29.860 made the

01:31:30.240 test robust

01:31:31.120 against social

01:31:32.060 self-presentation

01:31:33.180 i did that

01:31:33.940 with jacob

01:31:34.460 hirsch

01:31:34.820 and then so

01:31:35.880 i used

01:31:36.800 those tests

01:31:37.700 to predict

01:31:38.440 entrepreneurial

01:31:39.140 success

01:31:40.000 in thousands

01:31:41.140 of people

01:31:41.700 in silicon

01:31:42.260 valley

01:31:42.660 i was working

01:31:44.140 with a man

01:31:44.800 adeo resi

01:31:45.640 who ran

01:31:46.380 an institute

01:31:46.960 called the

01:31:47.440 founder institute

01:31:48.160 which was the

01:31:48.780 biggest early

01:31:49.380 stage tech

01:31:50.400 incubator in

01:31:51.020 the world

01:31:51.420 i think he

01:31:52.420 started 5,000

01:31:53.540 companies

01:31:54.020 something like

01:31:54.640 that and

01:31:55.180 we can predict

01:31:56.320 entrepreneurial

01:31:56.840 ability pretty

01:31:57.700 well basically

01:31:58.740 with general

01:31:59.900 cognitive ability

01:32:00.800 trait openness

01:32:01.760 and a bit of a

01:32:02.880 positive tilt

01:32:03.580 for age

01:32:04.260 and but

01:32:06.140 this is what

01:32:06.780 was happening

01:32:07.280 in his classes

01:32:08.040 he'd get 50

01:32:09.260 people together

01:32:10.120 to at a very

01:32:12.060 early stage

01:32:12.820 in the development

01:32:13.640 of their business

01:32:14.320 ideas and now

01:32:16.300 and then he'd

01:32:16.900 get a couple

01:32:17.380 of bad apples

01:32:18.160 in the group

01:32:18.880 and that would

01:32:19.800 just destroy

01:32:20.620 the class

01:32:21.340 and then he

01:32:21.800 was spending

01:32:22.200 all his time

01:32:22.880 attending to

01:32:23.480 the troublemakers

01:32:24.220 so he came

01:32:25.440 back to us

01:32:26.000 and he said

01:32:26.340 look we're

01:32:26.720 doing a pretty

01:32:27.100 good job

01:32:27.500 of finding

01:32:27.900 people who

01:32:28.380 are qualified

01:32:28.900 but we can't

01:32:29.560 keep out

01:32:29.880 the troublemakers

01:32:30.680 and i thought

01:32:31.820 well could we

01:32:32.640 do that

01:32:33.000 psychometrically

01:32:33.760 so this might

01:32:34.880 be something

01:32:35.300 interesting to

01:32:36.200 consider in

01:32:36.920 relationship to

01:32:37.620 the dark triad

01:32:38.500 and the

01:32:38.840 personality disorders

01:32:39.940 so you know

01:32:40.860 there's there

01:32:41.540 is a central

01:32:42.320 factor in

01:32:43.140 personality disorders

01:32:44.220 if you if

01:32:45.260 you turn the

01:32:45.740 personality disorder

01:32:46.680 items in the

01:32:47.320 dsm into

01:32:48.540 questionnaire

01:32:49.060 items you

01:32:50.700 can extract

01:32:51.320 out a single

01:32:51.880 factor and

01:32:52.460 one of the

01:32:53.040 best predictors

01:32:53.840 of failure to

01:32:55.100 respond to

01:32:55.960 clinical intervention

01:32:57.000 on the

01:32:57.440 personality disorder

01:32:58.400 side is sheer

01:33:00.200 number of

01:33:00.980 personality disorder

01:33:02.080 symptoms so it's

01:33:03.280 kind of just like a

01:33:04.020 severity index you

01:33:05.200 know so what we

01:33:06.960 did was we we

01:33:08.040 turned the dsm

01:33:09.020 personality disorder

01:33:10.500 items into

01:33:11.100 questions and

01:33:13.220 then we

01:33:13.620 administered them

01:33:14.320 to a very large

01:33:15.480 number of people

01:33:16.300 and then we we

01:33:17.900 pulled out a

01:33:18.460 central factor and

01:33:20.320 then we found the

01:33:21.100 items in the

01:33:22.040 personality disorder

01:33:23.460 questionnaire that

01:33:24.200 best predicted the

01:33:25.460 central tendency and

01:33:27.400 those that predicted

01:33:28.280 it the least and

01:33:30.620 then we forced

01:33:31.260 people to choose

01:33:32.040 between them they

01:33:32.800 both sound bad

01:33:33.720 they both sound

01:33:34.640 like pathological

01:33:35.540 attributes but

01:33:37.020 one is much more

01:33:38.240 clearly a marker of

01:33:39.440 the central proclivity

01:33:40.680 than the other and

01:33:41.980 then we did the

01:33:42.560 same thing with

01:33:43.280 winks narcissism

01:33:44.460 scale and so

01:33:47.340 then we were able

01:33:48.400 to identify people

01:33:49.740 who had this

01:33:50.280 narcissistic proclivity

01:33:51.740 and a personality

01:33:53.140 disorder proclivity

01:33:54.220 and we'd screen

01:33:55.180 those people out if

01:33:56.140 they scored more

01:33:56.800 than 95th percentile

01:33:58.220 and that cut the

01:33:59.560 incidence of

01:34:00.360 troublemaking the

01:34:01.240 classes dramatically

01:34:02.360 so the reason I'm

01:34:04.240 bringing this up is

01:34:05.040 because utilizing

01:34:06.980 it'd be it'd be

01:34:07.920 very interesting to

01:34:09.020 see and maybe you

01:34:10.160 guys have already

01:34:10.660 done this and so

01:34:11.420 this is also a

01:34:12.120 question on that

01:34:12.740 front is like a

01:34:14.340 lot of the

01:34:14.880 personality disorder

01:34:16.180 symptoms look to

01:34:19.100 me like they're

01:34:19.800 manifestations of

01:34:21.120 the more severe

01:34:22.040 end of the dark

01:34:22.840 tetrad traits and

01:34:24.520 it would be lovely

01:34:25.140 to see this

01:34:26.340 psychometric

01:34:26.920 enterprise enter

01:34:28.640 the domain of

01:34:29.440 psychopathological

01:34:30.380 prediction and

01:34:31.060 maybe the doorway

01:34:31.740 through that is the

01:34:32.720 honesty humility

01:34:33.580 dimension differentiated

01:34:36.320 out into the you

01:34:38.020 know more

01:34:38.320 antisocial pathologies

01:34:39.680 in the manner that

01:34:40.420 you've done it it

01:34:41.400 sounds like that's

01:34:41.980 an interesting

01:34:42.460 bridge into the

01:34:43.500 technically clinical

01:34:44.340 world

01:34:44.880 well that's been a

01:34:46.840 dynamic in the

01:34:48.340 development of

01:34:49.760 our understanding of

01:34:53.240 the link between

01:34:53.860 normal and clinical

01:34:55.120 traits I again I don't

01:34:56.840 want to step on the

01:34:57.920 on the toes of

01:34:59.100 clinicians but I

01:35:00.320 understand the

01:35:01.100 movement toward

01:35:02.560 trying to make all

01:35:03.800 clinical disorders

01:35:05.400 dimensional and that's

01:35:08.880 been a real clash

01:35:10.720 between the

01:35:11.440 traditional clinicians

01:35:12.560 who feel that you've

01:35:14.700 got schizophrenia or

01:35:16.120 you don't got

01:35:16.960 schizophrenia as

01:35:18.500 opposed to having a

01:35:20.140 dimension that

01:35:20.900 represents a

01:35:22.080 particular disorder

01:35:23.760 and placing people

01:35:25.340 on it and so I

01:35:27.200 understand why

01:35:28.240 people would some

01:35:30.800 clinicians who are

01:35:32.200 have a psychometric

01:35:34.460 proclivity are a

01:35:36.200 little bit offended at

01:35:37.700 me trying to come up

01:35:39.420 with labels that

01:35:41.180 sound like clinical

01:35:43.040 disorders but aren't

01:35:44.640 really because all of

01:35:46.580 the people I study are

01:35:48.340 doing okay and you

01:35:49.860 alluded to this earlier

01:35:50.960 but there's very little

01:35:53.120 maladjustment among any

01:35:57.480 of those four dark 0.95

01:36:00.580 personalities you can't

01:36:02.620 get them to correlate

01:36:03.600 very strongly with

01:36:05.080 especially with general

01:36:07.240 neuroticism or

01:36:08.560 feeling of

01:36:10.140 distress

01:36:11.100 they're not

01:36:12.320 distressed

01:36:13.080 whether they're

01:36:15.120 high or low

01:36:15.860 there's

01:36:16.400 there's

01:36:16.920 there's very little

01:36:17.760 relation there

01:36:18.680 right

01:36:19.400 that's an interesting

01:36:20.740 case of the

01:36:21.640 of the absence of

01:36:23.220 distress being a marker

01:36:24.540 for pathology because

01:36:25.840 that is the problem with

01:36:27.280 being a psychopath in 0.99

01:36:28.280 some real sense is you

01:36:29.320 do impulsive things

01:36:30.760 and they hurt you in the

01:36:32.740 long run

01:36:33.260 which is why you end up

01:36:34.420 in prison or with no

01:36:35.480 friends or as a

01:36:36.380 catastrophic failure by

01:36:37.540 the age of 40

01:36:38.300 but none of that's being

01:36:40.020 marked by psychological

01:36:41.240 distress along the way

01:36:42.580 so you're you're opaque to

01:36:45.140 the to the trouble that

01:36:46.700 your own pathology is

01:36:47.840 causing and that means

01:36:49.180 you're not getting error

01:36:50.060 signals when you should

01:36:51.160 so you're not depressed or

01:36:52.380 anxious but you're also

01:36:54.240 whistling in the dark as

01:36:55.440 you walk towards a cliff

01:36:56.700 so not helpful

01:36:58.980 yeah a very clever

01:37:01.380 clever study that you

01:37:02.920 outlined there

01:37:03.840 sometimes one

01:37:05.300 gets a sample

01:37:06.940 or an opportunity to

01:37:08.700 to study a certain

01:37:09.980 group and that's

01:37:11.000 that's what carries

01:37:11.900 one's research

01:37:12.700 but if you think about

01:37:14.340 it that's been a

01:37:15.660 difficulty in doing

01:37:16.760 dark side research

01:37:18.060 you've got to validate

01:37:20.240 these measures

01:37:21.200 so you've got to have

01:37:22.560 hard criteria

01:37:23.980 especially behavior

01:37:26.040 you can rely on the

01:37:27.920 judgments of others

01:37:28.940 to some extent

01:37:30.160 but hard

01:37:32.100 visible

01:37:33.400 recordable behavior

01:37:35.120 is really

01:37:35.940 the most persuasive

01:37:37.740 kind of criterion

01:37:38.640 but think about

01:37:39.420 sadism

01:37:40.080 how are you going to

01:37:41.520 show that in the

01:37:42.440 laboratory

01:37:42.900 that was a real

01:37:44.040 challenge to us

01:37:44.920 but but

01:37:45.860 in a way it was fun

01:37:48.020 developing measures

01:37:49.360 that can be used

01:37:52.100 can get by

01:37:52.940 these very restrictive

01:37:54.320 IRB boards

01:37:57.200 that look through

01:37:58.100 your work

01:37:58.940 and say

01:38:00.360 no you can't do

01:38:01.280 that

01:38:01.580 you can't do

01:38:02.200 this

01:38:02.600 and so

01:38:04.700 we came up

01:38:05.620 with this notion

01:38:06.420 of bug killing

01:38:07.520 which I

01:38:09.300 I guess I have to

01:38:10.440 attribute that

01:38:11.120 to Dan Jones

01:38:12.220 who came up

01:38:13.580 with the notion

01:38:14.260 of getting people

01:38:15.840 to think that

01:38:16.580 they're crunching

01:38:17.260 bugs

01:38:17.780 in a coffee

01:38:19.520 grinder

01:38:19.920 and again

01:38:22.180 such variance

01:38:23.900 some people

01:38:24.920 loved it

01:38:25.640 we tried to

01:38:27.480 anthropomorphize

01:38:28.800 the bugs

01:38:30.020 by giving them

01:38:30.920 names

01:38:31.240 so there was

01:38:32.080 a little wee

01:38:32.980 container

01:38:33.760 that had names

01:38:35.120 like Ike

01:38:36.140 and Muffin

01:38:37.040 cute little names

01:38:38.760 but they had to

01:38:39.680 take these bugs

01:38:40.760 put them into

01:38:42.080 the cruncher

01:38:42.860 press down

01:38:44.220 and hear the

01:38:44.980 what sounded

01:38:47.340 like bug parts

01:38:49.220 flying apart

01:38:50.140 it was actually

01:38:51.340 just coffee beans

01:38:53.500 but again

01:38:54.880 like the Milgram

01:38:55.640 study

01:38:56.020 they thought

01:38:56.520 they were doing

01:38:57.200 it

01:38:57.460 and when

01:38:58.600 some of the

01:39:00.360 subjects

01:39:00.960 say

01:39:01.180 got any more

01:39:02.660 that was fun

01:39:03.420 other people

01:39:05.000 were so horrified

01:39:06.800 to think about

01:39:08.060 the whole idea

01:39:09.700 they just ran

01:39:10.460 out of the lab

01:39:11.280 when we described

01:39:12.260 what we wanted

01:39:13.000 them to do

01:39:13.680 lovely to have

01:39:15.580 variants like that

01:39:16.680 when you're studying

01:39:17.540 something sensitive

01:39:20.700 like sadism

01:39:22.040 we also use

01:39:23.120 voodoo dolls

01:39:24.100 I'm not sure

01:39:24.900 if you're familiar

01:39:25.480 with that research

01:39:26.340 giving subjects

01:39:27.860 a cute little

01:39:29.420 doll

01:39:29.900 and saying

01:39:31.020 think of the

01:39:31.900 person that

01:39:32.660 you really

01:39:33.380 dislike

01:39:34.120 now we're

01:39:35.360 going to leave

01:39:35.820 you alone

01:39:36.400 for five minutes

01:39:37.420 and you're

01:39:38.880 welcome to

01:39:39.500 take this

01:39:40.240 set of

01:39:41.720 pins

01:39:42.160 and stick

01:39:43.380 them into

01:39:43.920 the doll

01:39:44.660 to represent

01:39:45.800 the degree

01:39:46.620 to which

01:39:47.340 you hate

01:39:48.000 them

01:39:48.380 and again

01:39:50.120 lots of

01:39:50.620 variants there

01:39:51.380 we come back

01:39:52.540 after five minutes

01:39:53.560 and some of

01:39:54.280 these dolls

01:39:54.760 are full of

01:39:55.400 pins

01:39:55.760 and that

01:39:57.940 tends to

01:39:58.900 correlate

01:39:59.300 with

01:39:59.940 I think

01:40:01.020 this particular

01:40:01.680 study was

01:40:02.440 actually

01:40:02.920 showing the

01:40:04.740 the dark

01:40:06.380 tetrad measures

01:40:07.860 in comparison

01:40:09.320 to questionnaire

01:40:10.580 measures of

01:40:11.700 psychoticism

01:40:12.920 which is

01:40:14.460 in a sense

01:40:16.740 answered the

01:40:17.780 question that

01:40:18.620 you often

01:40:19.480 pose yourself

01:40:21.780 when you're

01:40:22.120 listening to a

01:40:22.780 horrible crime

01:40:23.720 described

01:40:24.500 on television

01:40:26.360 and you wonder

01:40:27.200 this is such a

01:40:28.940 horrible crime

01:40:29.580 was the person

01:40:30.260 crazy

01:40:30.820 or was the 0.99

01:40:32.360 person nasty

01:40:33.300 and that has

01:40:34.760 legal consequences

01:40:35.880 doesn't it 0.99

01:40:36.500 you're crazy 0.73

01:40:37.760 you're not 1.00

01:40:38.820 guilty

01:40:39.180 you're

01:40:40.580 you're just 1.00

01:40:41.200 nasty 1.00

01:40:41.700 you can go 0.99

01:40:42.700 away for

01:40:43.200 some time

01:40:43.780 for doing

01:40:44.220 nasty stuff

01:40:44.860 and we found

01:40:45.800 actually that

01:40:46.520 both

01:40:46.980 contributed

01:40:48.500 to the extent

01:40:49.300 that you can

01:40:49.780 measure

01:40:50.160 psychoticism

01:40:51.320 with a

01:40:52.680 questionnaire

01:40:53.120 measures

01:40:54.400 debatable

01:40:55.060 we found

01:40:56.320 that

01:40:56.660 independently

01:40:57.720 the dark

01:41:00.400 tetrad

01:41:00.880 and psychoticism

01:41:02.700 predicted

01:41:04.260 the number

01:41:05.300 of pins

01:41:05.960 that you

01:41:06.340 stuck in

01:41:06.940 this

01:41:07.360 sorry little

01:41:09.960 doll

01:41:10.440 that you

01:41:10.820 were given

01:41:11.240 so Del

01:41:12.900 you've been

01:41:13.540 delving into

01:41:14.440 the dark

01:41:14.900 side of human

01:41:15.580 behavior

01:41:16.060 for a long

01:41:17.240 time

01:41:17.580 and you

01:41:18.280 know

01:41:18.400 you alluded

01:41:18.960 to the

01:41:19.480 fact

01:41:20.080 or the

01:41:21.440 possibility

01:41:21.960 of a certain

01:41:22.440 pessimism

01:41:23.180 that emerged

01:41:24.240 as a consequence

01:41:25.020 of your

01:41:25.780 observation

01:41:26.380 that sometimes

01:41:27.440 anonymous

01:41:27.960 responses

01:41:28.620 are actually

01:41:29.240 more revealing

01:41:30.060 and anonymous

01:41:31.340 behavior on

01:41:32.300 the net

01:41:32.980 has produced

01:41:33.580 quite the

01:41:34.140 uptick in

01:41:35.100 pathological

01:41:35.720 behavior

01:41:36.240 but what

01:41:37.820 what has

01:41:38.460 been

01:41:38.780 what has

01:41:39.640 been the

01:41:40.000 consequence

01:41:40.420 for you

01:41:41.000 personally

01:41:41.560 in focusing

01:41:43.040 so intensely

01:41:43.980 on this

01:41:44.620 dark area

01:41:45.220 of human

01:41:45.780 proclivity

01:41:47.580 and

01:41:48.700 and

01:41:50.460 well let's

01:41:51.940 start with

01:41:52.340 that

01:41:52.660 oh yes

01:41:53.880 and then the

01:41:54.240 other thing

01:41:54.580 was how do

01:41:55.060 you distinguish

01:41:55.680 let's say

01:41:56.340 personally

01:41:57.620 and scientifically

01:41:58.560 between the

01:42:00.540 ethical

01:42:01.040 issue

01:42:02.040 with regard

01:42:03.180 to the

01:42:03.680 dark tetrad

01:42:04.280 behavior

01:42:04.720 and the

01:42:05.140 biological

01:42:05.660 motivations

01:42:06.500 right

01:42:06.900 because

01:42:07.220 your work

01:42:08.060 does skirt

01:42:08.760 that line

01:42:09.520 right

01:42:09.840 so you can

01:42:10.700 think about

01:42:11.160 psychopathy

01:42:11.820 as an

01:42:12.180 adaptive mating

01:42:12.960 strategy

01:42:13.460 in some

01:42:13.900 sense

01:42:14.300 on the

01:42:15.060 scientific

01:42:15.440 front

01:42:15.820 but then

01:42:16.260 when you

01:42:16.860 think about

01:42:17.260 it ethically

01:42:17.740 and personally

01:42:18.360 it falls

01:42:19.400 into the

01:42:19.960 category

01:42:20.500 of the

01:42:21.160 kind of

01:42:21.560 clearly

01:42:21.860 reprehensible

01:42:22.520 behavior

01:42:22.980 that should

01:42:23.380 get people

01:42:23.860 locked up

01:42:24.520 so

01:42:24.760 A

01:42:25.940 what has

01:42:26.360 this done

01:42:26.820 to your

01:42:27.200 view of

01:42:27.620 human

01:42:27.880 nature

01:42:28.300 and B

01:42:29.680 how do

01:42:30.760 you thread

01:42:31.260 the needle

01:42:31.740 of scientific

01:42:32.720 evaluation

01:42:33.500 versus moral

01:42:34.340 evaluation

01:42:35.000 well for me

01:42:38.020 it started

01:42:38.580 in

01:42:39.640 in an

01:42:41.700 undergraduate

01:42:42.220 course

01:42:42.840 where I

01:42:43.200 learned about

01:42:43.680 Machiavellianism

01:42:44.580 and went to

01:42:45.200 work with

01:42:45.600 Richard Christie

01:42:46.240 so in a

01:42:47.500 sense I was

01:42:48.140 there from

01:42:48.660 the beginning

01:42:49.260 how what

01:42:51.200 the causal

01:42:52.060 direction

01:42:52.660 was

01:42:53.840 I'm not

01:42:54.920 sure at

01:42:55.320 that point

01:42:55.720 but I

01:42:56.060 did do

01:42:56.380 a lot

01:42:56.680 of other

01:42:57.020 work

01:42:57.380 on self

01:42:59.020 enhancement

01:42:59.580 etc

01:43:00.100 other

01:43:01.500 researchers

01:43:02.340 in my

01:43:03.000 department

01:43:03.480 like to

01:43:04.600 study

01:43:04.920 happy

01:43:05.280 people

01:43:05.740 and

01:43:06.980 I

01:43:08.160 didn't

01:43:08.800 find them

01:43:09.260 as interesting

01:43:09.920 as the

01:43:10.920 dark side

01:43:12.000 and certainly

01:43:13.460 I could

01:43:13.960 give a

01:43:15.000 rationale

01:43:15.420 that

01:43:16.140 we're more

01:43:17.420 concerned

01:43:18.140 with the

01:43:18.680 behavior

01:43:19.120 of the

01:43:20.020 dark side

01:43:20.780 than we

01:43:21.260 are with

01:43:21.860 what happy

01:43:23.020 people can

01:43:23.620 do to us

01:43:24.160 maybe they

01:43:24.840 they could

01:43:25.840 bore us

01:43:26.540 at times

01:43:27.180 but they're

01:43:28.000 not going

01:43:28.380 to be a

01:43:28.780 danger to

01:43:29.480 us

01:43:29.820 so studying

01:43:31.840 the dark

01:43:32.380 side is more

01:43:33.060 important

01:43:33.660 arguably

01:43:34.380 and there

01:43:36.640 is a

01:43:37.000 light

01:43:37.400 triad now

01:43:39.520 where people

01:43:40.140 have put

01:43:40.900 together some

01:43:41.600 positive traits

01:43:42.560 and kind of

01:43:43.960 followed up

01:43:44.640 on the notion

01:43:45.200 of the dark

01:43:45.800 triad

01:43:47.340 and said

01:43:49.540 why don't

01:43:49.900 we look

01:43:50.340 at the

01:43:50.660 positive

01:43:51.040 side

01:43:51.600 and see

01:43:52.200 who

01:43:52.920 gives

01:43:55.860 desirable

01:43:56.800 motivations

01:43:57.780 for their

01:43:58.440 behavior

01:43:58.900 I studied

01:44:01.700 social

01:44:02.100 desirability

01:44:02.900 for a

01:44:03.380 long time

01:44:04.040 and

01:44:05.080 it never

01:44:06.420 really came

01:44:07.140 together for

01:44:07.860 me because

01:44:08.440 you develop

01:44:10.840 a social

01:44:11.480 desirability

01:44:12.300 scale

01:44:12.780 well it's

01:44:13.320 partly true

01:44:14.260 and it's

01:44:15.320 partly

01:44:15.760 phony

01:44:17.260 and

01:44:17.740 that's

01:44:19.300 a terrible

01:44:20.540 confounding

01:44:22.000 because

01:44:22.940 do you want

01:44:24.020 to hire

01:44:24.440 the person

01:44:25.020 who scores

01:44:25.620 high

01:44:26.120 on social

01:44:26.740 desirability

01:44:27.520 or the

01:44:28.500 person who

01:44:29.040 scores low

01:44:29.820 is perhaps

01:44:30.400 right

01:44:30.660 right

01:44:31.040 I found

01:44:32.240 that very

01:44:32.700 frustrating

01:44:33.280 work as

01:44:33.840 well

01:44:34.020 I tried

01:44:34.420 to develop

01:44:34.880 scales of

01:44:35.500 self-deception

01:44:36.240 and self-presentation

01:44:37.420 and it was

01:44:38.420 I ran into

01:44:39.440 I think

01:44:39.800 very much

01:44:40.320 the same

01:44:40.760 problem

01:44:41.260 it's

01:44:42.080 well first

01:44:43.300 of all

01:44:43.500 it's not

01:44:43.780 obvious

01:44:44.120 that it's

01:44:44.520 an independent

01:44:45.160 dimension

01:44:46.020 right

01:44:46.720 because it

01:44:47.040 seems to be

01:44:47.500 quite affected

01:44:48.020 by agreeableness

01:44:48.900 but it's also

01:44:49.980 not as you

01:44:50.740 said it's not

01:44:51.280 obvious what

01:44:51.820 the desirable

01:44:52.360 outcome actually

01:44:53.140 is like

01:44:53.640 do you want

01:44:54.460 the person

01:44:54.920 who tries

01:44:55.400 to look

01:44:55.780 make themselves

01:44:56.480 look better

01:44:57.100 than they are

01:44:57.680 during a job

01:44:58.380 interview

01:44:58.840 and the answer

01:45:00.020 is well maybe

01:45:00.640 you do want

01:45:01.240 them because

01:45:01.600 at least they

01:45:02.180 came to the

01:45:02.920 interview and

01:45:03.540 tried

01:45:04.140 you know you

01:45:04.900 could say

01:45:05.260 well it's

01:45:05.720 fake

01:45:06.200 but on the

01:45:06.980 other hand

01:45:07.440 well putting

01:45:08.380 your best foot

01:45:09.120 forward isn't

01:45:09.780 just fake

01:45:10.580 it's also a

01:45:11.280 step in the

01:45:11.860 right direction

01:45:12.620 and so separating

01:45:13.920 those out is

01:45:14.520 extraordinarily

01:45:15.060 difficult it's

01:45:15.760 also difficult

01:45:16.440 to separate it

01:45:17.440 out from such

01:45:18.060 things as

01:45:18.540 extroversion and

01:45:19.380 trait optimism

01:45:20.300 and yeah it was

01:45:21.620 a real morass I

01:45:22.480 know you did a lot

01:45:23.160 of work on that

01:45:23.820 for a long time

01:45:24.720 I don't know if

01:45:26.400 you've heard of

01:45:26.920 integrity tests

01:45:28.280 but you

01:45:29.340 raised a real

01:45:30.800 paradox because

01:45:32.380 integrity tests

01:45:34.140 in a sense of

01:45:35.140 the opposite

01:45:35.900 rationale to

01:45:37.620 social desirability

01:45:39.240 tests they

01:45:40.720 ask people who

01:45:41.840 are being

01:45:42.200 hired by big

01:45:44.800 companies have

01:45:47.640 you stolen from

01:45:48.780 an employer and

01:45:51.540 a variety of

01:45:53.520 other things that

01:45:54.540 would cause the

01:45:55.720 company a problem

01:45:57.980 if they hired

01:45:58.820 you but they

01:45:59.800 take it at face

01:46:00.720 value with

01:46:01.600 integrity tests

01:46:02.660 if you gave

01:46:03.700 those answers on

01:46:04.740 a social

01:46:05.160 desirability test

01:46:06.520 then researchers

01:46:07.680 would often

01:46:08.380 toss you out

01:46:09.400 because

01:46:10.400 no one

01:46:13.080 because you're

01:46:13.420 lying

01:46:13.720 you're lying

01:46:15.060 or hypothetically

01:46:15.660 yeah yeah

01:46:16.540 well I didn't

01:46:17.660 I didn't know

01:46:18.260 that the

01:46:18.860 the integrity

01:46:19.560 tests seem to

01:46:20.680 be valid

01:46:21.160 predictors only

01:46:21.940 to the degree

01:46:22.540 that they marked

01:46:23.200 something like

01:46:23.800 conscientiousness

01:46:24.720 I never saw

01:46:25.700 any compelling

01:46:26.260 evidence that

01:46:26.960 they really got

01:46:27.820 farther than a

01:46:29.200 good conscientiousness

01:46:30.360 measure so

01:46:31.640 yeah some people

01:46:32.540 have argued that

01:46:33.300 the reason why

01:46:34.700 both of them

01:46:35.520 can work is

01:46:37.060 that social

01:46:38.080 desirability

01:46:38.740 scales are

01:46:39.320 usually used on

01:46:40.360 college students

01:46:41.460 who have higher

01:46:43.380 cognitive abilities

01:46:44.600 if you're hiring

01:46:45.900 cashiers or

01:46:47.280 someone who's

01:46:48.160 doing muscle

01:46:50.360 work for your

01:46:51.980 company then

01:46:53.480 it's it's a

01:46:54.720 little more

01:46:55.100 straightforward

01:46:55.640 and to some

01:46:57.380 extent they've

01:46:58.580 got some clever

01:46:59.300 methods like

01:47:00.100 saying how

01:47:01.480 much money do

01:47:02.560 you think the

01:47:03.200 typical employee

01:47:04.360 steals from

01:47:06.060 the employer

01:47:06.880 and it's kind

01:47:08.940 of a projective

01:47:10.020 test built

01:47:11.120 into it in a

01:47:11.880 way to the

01:47:13.080 extent that

01:47:13.740 someone says

01:47:14.380 oh yeah people

01:47:15.440 steal a lot

01:47:16.400 they're

01:47:17.640 they're

01:47:18.180 they're

01:47:19.680 indicting

01:47:20.120 themselves

01:47:20.760 right right

01:47:22.220 right they're

01:47:22.800 indicating what

01:47:23.420 they regard as

01:47:24.120 normative

01:47:24.620 so look we're

01:47:26.340 out of time

01:47:27.240 here

01:47:27.660 unfortunately

01:47:30.000 so thank you

01:47:32.660 is there anything

01:47:33.360 else we're going

01:47:34.260 to turn over to

01:47:35.000 the daily wire

01:47:35.480 plus platform

01:47:36.220 here I'm going

01:47:36.600 to talk to

01:47:37.120 dr del paulis

01:47:38.220 for another

01:47:38.880 half an hour

01:47:39.480 about the

01:47:40.660 course of the

01:47:41.640 development of

01:47:42.360 his interest in

01:47:43.140 psychology and

01:47:44.060 in these dark

01:47:45.080 tetrad traits

01:47:46.060 and I'd like to

01:47:47.920 thank him very

01:47:48.440 much for coming

01:47:50.060 to talk to or

01:47:50.980 for agreeing to

01:47:51.640 talk to me today

01:47:52.260 and for sharing

01:47:52.800 what he knows

01:47:53.300 with everybody

01:47:53.800 who's listening

01:47:54.440 the dark tetrad

01:47:56.080 research is

01:47:56.760 extremely interesting

01:47:57.780 if you're

01:47:58.680 interested in

01:47:59.200 psychology this

01:48:00.120 concentration on

01:48:01.220 the accurate

01:48:01.820 psychometric

01:48:02.420 evaluation of

01:48:03.560 of it of

01:48:04.780 essentially immoral

01:48:05.880 and counterproductive

01:48:07.180 behavior viewed

01:48:07.960 from a social

01:48:08.560 perspective is very

01:48:09.520 important part of

01:48:11.000 the psychometric

01:48:12.380 enterprise and I

01:48:13.320 think it's one of

01:48:13.980 the domains of

01:48:16.180 modern psychology

01:48:17.240 that are reliable

01:48:18.940 and valid and

01:48:20.060 that might bear

01:48:21.120 genuine fruit as

01:48:22.240 they unfold just

01:48:23.100 like the big five

01:48:23.880 has so it's been

01:48:25.060 really good to

01:48:25.580 talk to you for

01:48:26.460 everyone watching

01:48:27.920 and listening today

01:48:29.220 thank you very

01:48:30.260 much for your

01:48:31.060 time and attention

01:48:31.780 as always and

01:48:32.820 is there anything

01:48:33.920 else you want to

01:48:34.680 bring to the

01:48:35.220 attention of people

01:48:36.220 before we we

01:48:38.600 move over to the

01:48:39.400 other interview

01:48:40.000 no I just

01:48:41.700 appreciate that you

01:48:42.700 really covered all

01:48:43.840 of the important

01:48:44.660 issues the full

01:48:46.000 breadth thanks for

01:48:47.220 that oh my

01:48:49.040 pleasure and like

01:48:49.880 I said I'm very

01:48:50.800 pleased that we had

01:48:51.540 the opportunity to

01:48:52.400 talk today all right

01:48:53.140 everyone watching and

01:48:54.100 listening thank you

01:48:54.840 very much and

01:48:56.040 thanks again dr

01:48:56.840 polos and and

01:48:58.520 ciao to everyone

01:48:59.840 hello everyone I

01:49:02.600 would encourage you

01:49:03.180 to continue listening

01:49:04.360 to my conversation

01:49:05.400 with my guest on

01:49:07.000 dailywireplus.com

01:49:09.000 thanks for letting me

01:49:21.340 screen

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