The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast

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00:00:57.420 Hello everyone. I'm happy today to be able to talk to Louise Perry.

00:01:14.080 We'll have an interesting conversation about sexual dynamics and the relative role of women and men.

00:01:19.600 Louise Perry, my guest today, is a UK-based journalist, author, and columnist, writing on the topics of sexual freedom and the current state of feminism and the feminine. 1.00

00:01:32.860 Her recent book is The Case Against the Sexual Revolution, published in 2022, so a new book.

00:01:40.260 It notes the emergence of a widespread disillusionment with sex, particularly among the young, male and female alike,

00:01:49.600 and discusses the long-term psychological and social error of a life of hedonistic urges in the midst of the upheaval of traditional marital concepts.

00:02:02.820 Louise is also the director of The Other Half, a new non-partisan feminist think tank, 0.95

00:02:08.680 and the host of Maiden Mother Matriarch, a developmental progression, a podcast about sexual politics.

00:02:19.940 Hello, Louise. Thank you very much for agreeing to talk to me today.

00:02:23.480 You wrote a rather controversial book recently.

00:02:29.300 Let's talk about the book.

00:02:30.600 I'm just going to walk through the chapters and give everybody a preview of where we're heading.

00:02:35.420 So, chapter one, sex must be taken seriously.

00:02:41.240 That doesn't sound like much fun.

00:02:43.860 Number two, men and women are different. 0.99

00:02:47.180 Well, that'll get you in trouble.

00:02:48.660 That's for sure, too.

00:02:50.440 So, some desires are bad.

00:02:54.460 Loveless sex is not empowering.

00:02:57.800 Consent is not enough.

00:03:00.200 And people are not products.

00:03:02.020 Well, if you were trying to pick a fight in today's society,

00:03:07.740 particularly with those on the left, I would say,

00:03:10.500 you couldn't have picked six more contentious titles for chapters,

00:03:16.040 with the possible exception of people are not products.

00:03:19.060 I suppose most people on the left, even the radicals, would agree with that statement.

00:03:24.360 But the rest of it pretty much runs counter to, I would say,

00:03:31.200 the juvenile delusions of our present culture.

00:03:34.700 I was interested today, I was going through your book again,

00:03:39.560 and I noticed once again that you started with the story of Marilyn Monroe and Hugh Hefner.

00:03:46.180 And I was just talking to my wife about that the other day.

00:03:49.800 I think it was probably in a conversation motivated by the fact that this podcast was coming up,

00:03:55.860 and we talked about the emergence of pornography during our lifetime, you know,

00:04:02.280 and when both of us are around 60, and when we were young,

00:04:07.280 the standard pornographic recourse, you might say, was Playboy.

00:04:13.060 But that soon multiplied, like a Hydra, and first of all, there was Playboy.

00:04:19.240 And it had some pretensions to something like culture,

00:04:23.660 and there was a certain style associated with it,

00:04:27.540 and a certain, what would you call it, veneer of sophistication.

00:04:34.220 You know, it was all jazz and penthouses and New York and freedom and youth

00:04:39.960 and, you know, sexual activity between consenting adults,

00:04:44.860 all free of other entanglements, but completely conscious of what they were doing.

00:04:49.020 And there were highbrow interviews and, you know, sort of in-jokes.

00:04:53.580 And so Playboy was quite effective at generating a kind of late rat pack cool around itself.

00:05:04.120 But then the next iteration of the pornographic ascent was Penthouse,

00:05:12.940 and it was the harder core version of Playboy.

00:05:17.520 It got a lot more gynecological, let's say.

00:05:20.560 And then Hustler hit after that, and everybody knew at that point,

00:05:24.160 no matter what their attitude was toward Playboy,

00:05:28.460 that we'd stepped into a new sort of swamp of monstrosity.

00:05:36.220 And then, of course, it wasn't long after that, 15 years maybe, something like that,

00:05:42.420 that porn hit the internet, and then away we went.

00:05:46.200 So let's start talking about Marilyn Monroe and her. 0.97

00:05:50.400 I mean, she embodied this feminine archetype of the sex kitten, I guess, 0.97

00:06:00.000 the femme fatale tube, but she's more on the sex kitten end of things. 1.00

00:06:03.740 And she's still an icon.

00:06:06.300 And she's an icon that even gave rise to figures such as Madonna, I would say,

00:06:11.020 because Madonna played with the Marilyn Monroe image a lot

00:06:14.220 and with a fair bit of success, but it's not like Marilyn exactly had a good time with it.

00:06:18.580 So she died very young, by her own hand.

00:06:22.560 Why don't you tell a little bit more of her story?

00:06:25.780 Yeah, she had a fairly miserable life from start to finish.

00:06:29.800 One of the reasons I decided to open the book by talking about Marilyn Monroe and Hugh Hefner

00:06:35.560 is partly because just through good luck from my perspective as a writer,

00:06:40.280 they were born in exactly the same year,

00:06:42.060 even though, of course, yeah, Monroe died young and Hefner lived well into his 90s.

00:06:48.880 And they were both these incredible icons of the sexual revolution,

00:06:53.440 Marilyn for her beauty and Hefner for his success for Playboy magazine.

00:06:57.480 But they lived extraordinarily different lives,

00:07:00.360 and they experienced sexual liberation, so-called, in completely different ways.

00:07:05.200 Marilyn Monroe grew up in foster homes, was a victim of child sexual abuse

00:07:11.680 and of domestic violence as an adult, and, as you say, died by her own hand,

00:07:16.620 long-standing substance abuse issues, etc.

00:07:20.160 Hefner didn't suffer in that way.

00:07:22.460 I mean, I do think that actually by the time Hefner grew old,

00:07:27.180 he had lost the glamour that he had as a younger man.

00:07:30.800 I think that he is evidence of the fact that even the most successful Playboy has a shelf life,

00:07:38.440 not as short a shelf life as the sexually liberated woman does. 0.99

00:07:43.340 I mean, really, in reality, with a modern Western lifespan,

00:07:47.520 you're talking maybe a quarter of that.

00:07:50.200 You might be really sexually desirable,

00:07:51.780 which is why I think it's risky to place all of your self-esteem on that value,

00:07:58.800 or indeed to base your career, base your life around being sexually desirable,

00:08:05.040 because it's really not very long.

00:08:06.460 Well, you know, that's a good place to take a slight detour.

00:08:14.780 Your book makes a moral case, and moral cases aren't particularly popular now,

00:08:23.600 but there are some interesting ways of discussing morality technically

00:08:31.180 that I think might be worth delving into.

00:08:34.060 So one of the things that people who are watching and listening might be interested in knowing

00:08:39.000 is that people pursue different mating strategies, so to speak.

00:08:43.160 That's how evolutionary psychologists or biologists describe it,

00:08:47.000 and you can make the same case in animal kingdom to some degree.

00:08:51.500 And there are short-term mating strategies,

00:08:55.120 and that would be associated with an ethos of the glorification, let's say,

00:09:00.100 or the practice of casual sex, so sex without relationship.

00:09:04.200 And one of the questions that you might ask is,

00:09:07.740 are there pronounced differences between people who tend to pursue short-term mating strategies

00:09:17.200 versus long-term mating strategies?

00:09:20.080 Now, a long-term mating strategy would be accompanied by the formulation

00:09:23.060 of a relationship of mutual support.

00:09:27.380 That's what makes it sustainable.

00:09:29.080 And the answer is, well, yeah, there are marked differences.

00:09:35.260 One of the hallmarks of antisocial personality,

00:09:38.180 and so that's the personality characteristic set that is associated with criminality,

00:09:44.420 is a proclivity towards short-term mating strategies,

00:09:47.580 and that is associated with early onset of sexual activity and multiple sexual partners,

00:09:53.640 and then in its more pathological form,

00:09:56.540 a predatory or parasitical lifestyle in relationship to sex.

00:10:05.820 And so that has been elaborated more recently into the analysis of so-called dark tetrad personality characteristics.

00:10:13.880 That's an emerging model of the malevolent and pathological personality,

00:10:18.600 and that involves Machiavellianism, which is manipulative,

00:10:23.260 narcissistic, which is virtue-free attention-seeking.

00:10:30.840 It's a good way of thinking about it.

00:10:33.420 Psychopathy, which is predatory parasitism,

00:10:36.060 and sadism, which is positive delight in harm to other people.

00:10:39.720 And all of those delightful characteristics

00:10:43.180 are associated with a striking proclivity for short-term mating.

00:10:48.660 And that brings up the stark realization that it's a form of exploitation.

00:10:56.780 That's a good way of thinking about it.

00:10:58.420 And it's fundamentally the exploitation of women, 1.00

00:11:01.740 because here's a good way of defining women, 1.00

00:11:03.820 since we don't know how to do that in our society anymore.

00:11:06.440 We might as well start with basics.

00:11:08.040 And throughout the animal kingdom,

00:11:10.260 and this is true all the way from sperm and egg up to fully embodied being,

00:11:15.800 the female is almost inevitably the sex that pours more resources into reproduction. 1.00

00:11:24.320 So that means that women bear a higher cost for sexual reproduction 1.00

00:11:29.500 in case anyone's still too stupid to actually understand that. 1.00

00:11:33.560 Might as well make it explicit. 0.99

00:11:34.940 And what that also means is that if there's exploitation going on in a sexual relationship,

00:11:43.780 it's most often, although not always,

00:11:47.580 the male who has less at stake exploiting the female,

00:11:51.200 who has far more at stake.

00:11:52.920 And it's enticing for young women to believe, I suppose,

00:11:58.580 if they want to pursue hedonic pleasure,

00:12:00.900 that they can escape from that reality.

00:12:03.100 But it's very difficult to.

00:12:05.200 So that's one element.

00:12:06.260 Then the next element with regard to morality is,

00:12:08.740 if you're playing a game that only works in the short term for others,

00:12:15.540 but also for yourself, then that's not a very good game.

00:12:19.380 And, you know, the point you were making was that

00:12:21.520 Maryland was playing a particularly short game.

00:12:25.020 And even Hugh, who had less to lose,

00:12:28.500 and arguably on some dimensions more to gain, 0.98

00:12:31.260 gain, he was still pretty damn pathetic by the time he hit, 0.94

00:12:36.340 I would say, what, mid-50s? 0.96

00:12:39.760 I watched one of his late TV shows where he was touring Europe

00:12:43.680 with his three blonde bimbos who were not the world's, 1.00

00:12:47.860 they weren't the sharpest knives in the drawer, let's put it that way.

00:12:51.000 And it was Hugh and his three blonde clones 1.00

00:12:54.660 traipsing painfully from faux glamorous restaurant

00:13:01.300 to faux glamorous restaurant through Europe,

00:13:04.160 engaging in conversations so puerile and painful

00:13:07.060 that anyone with any sense would have run away from the table

00:13:10.680 screaming after five minutes.

00:13:12.720 So he turned into his own parody.

00:13:15.520 And that was quite clear.

00:13:16.720 I mean, anybody with any sense at all,

00:13:18.780 no matter how much they might have been enamored

00:13:20.580 by his young and hypothetically glamorous self,

00:13:24.180 if you had looked at that with a cold eye a few decades later,

00:13:29.140 it was looking pretty oldest boy at the frat party.

00:13:34.820 It had that whole stench about it, I would say.

00:13:38.220 So, all right, so back to Marilyn.

00:13:40.220 You said that she had a pretty brutal upbringing

00:13:42.740 and was exploited pretty early on.

00:13:46.600 You might as well tell the story about her,

00:13:49.620 the famous photographs that launched Playboy.

00:13:51.900 Yeah, so Marilyn was both the first cover star

00:13:55.980 and also the first naked centerfold in the first issue of Playboy.

00:14:00.060 But the naked photos were acquired without her consent.

00:14:04.340 She'd taken them, well, she'd had them taken many years before

00:14:07.360 when she was much younger for very little money

00:14:09.300 just because she was desperate.

00:14:10.900 She'd signed the release with a false name,

00:14:13.440 but somehow Hefner got a hold of them

00:14:15.060 and paid the photographer rather than her

00:14:17.080 in order to publish them in Playboy.

00:14:19.720 And she wasn't even sent a free copy

00:14:21.220 and was apparently very upset about it.

00:14:23.940 Hefner ended up buying the crypt next to hers

00:14:27.260 at the cemetery in Los Angeles where they're both buried.

00:14:31.380 Obviously buried many decades after she was.

00:14:34.020 But they never actually met in real life.

00:14:36.160 So this whole kind of relationship between the two of them

00:14:39.660 was very much initiated by him.

00:14:41.980 And, I mean, this is the point that I want to make

00:14:45.400 with talking about Marilyn Monroe.

00:14:47.180 She is very typical of female sex icons 1.00

00:14:50.640 in having this kind of tragic backstory,

00:14:55.400 multiple forms of exploitation by lots of people,

00:14:58.560 most of them men.

00:15:00.060 And yet she is held up as this iconic figure

00:15:04.860 of the sexual revolution,

00:15:06.080 which we're supposed to believe was a good thing.

00:15:08.620 Right.

00:15:09.020 And my argument in the book,

00:15:10.140 it is, of course, the case against the sexual revolution.

00:15:13.200 My argument is not that it was entirely bad.

00:15:15.800 I don't think you can paint any huge historical event

00:15:19.120 as entirely bad or entirely good.

00:15:21.880 But I think that it has been falsely presented mostly

00:15:25.540 by progressives through rose-tinted spectacles.

00:15:28.980 And this is my attempt to counter that.

00:15:31.380 Yeah, well, there's no doubt she was an iconic figure

00:15:34.080 and still is.

00:15:35.180 And part of the reason, it's hard to say exactly why.

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00:17:16.500 Obviously hyper-attractive about her

00:17:22.180 and I heard her interviewed once

00:17:24.620 in a radio station

00:17:25.460 where she said she could walk down the street.

00:17:28.180 I believe her genuine name was Norma Ray.

00:17:31.700 Is that right? Norma Ray?

00:17:33.740 And she said she could walk down the street

00:17:36.020 as Norma Ray and no one would look at her

00:17:37.900 or she could walk down the street as Marilyn 0.77

00:17:40.020 and then people would just be attracted to her like mad.

00:17:42.720 And so I want to run a hypothesis by you.

00:17:45.180 You know, given that backstory for female sexual icons 1.00

00:17:51.120 and this is often the case for girls who get dragged 1.00

00:17:54.380 or who agree to participate in the pornography industry

00:17:58.400 that, you know, they're often abandoned girls 1.00

00:18:01.300 who have a history of fractured relationships and abuse.

00:18:06.280 Now, so here's a hypothesis.

00:18:08.760 You know that girls without fathers hit puberty one year earlier. 0.99

00:18:12.680 That's a real biological mystery.

00:18:15.400 But here's a hypothesis.

00:18:17.380 So imagine that you're bereft of male companionship

00:18:22.920 and productivity and protection.

00:18:26.520 And maybe that's because your culture doesn't have enough men. 1.00

00:18:31.720 Sometimes that happens after wars, for example.

00:18:33.940 Or maybe you're just in an economic niche or social niche

00:18:38.780 where you're unfortunate, you know.

00:18:41.760 So now why would you develop a year early from a puberty perspective?

00:18:47.420 Well, the answer is one of the ways that women can attract male attention, 1.00

00:18:51.880 obviously, and therefore, in principle, companionship, protection, productivity,

00:18:56.680 all of that that might come along with a real relationship

00:19:00.760 is by being sexually attractive and available.

00:19:05.040 And so if there's a dearth of males in the local environment,

00:19:08.380 then early puberty could easily be a way of increasing the probability

00:19:13.900 of catching a mate early enough so you don't starve to death, let's say.

00:19:19.020 Okay, so then imagine that there's a psychological equivalent to that.

00:19:23.060 And this is where that waif-like femme fatale archetype might kick in. 1.00

00:19:28.600 And so if you're appealingly, vulnerably beautiful and available,

00:19:34.820 and then you have that magic that can go along with that

00:19:39.800 when it's transformed into something truly archetypal,

00:19:44.940 which Marilyn did extraordinarily well. 1.00

00:19:47.540 You know, there's a bit of a little girl about her.

00:19:49.620 She had a very girly voice, and that's how she sang. 0.67

00:19:53.320 And she had a kind of innocent, naive provocativeness

00:19:57.420 that was amplified paradoxically by her overt sexuality.

00:20:03.760 And so she had some of the appeal of a helpless child

00:20:07.420 and some of the appeal of a truly mature woman.

00:20:11.120 And that can be a very deadly combination.

00:20:14.300 And I think the fact that it's a deadly combination

00:20:16.440 is also a kind of adaptation.

00:20:18.120 So you can imagine that girls who are abused

00:20:21.460 might turn to that pattern of seductive behavior

00:20:27.900 because if they turn on the charm full throttle in that manner,

00:20:33.820 it increases the probability that even in their desperate economic straits,

00:20:38.280 they might be able to attract a male. 0.96

00:20:40.040 And of course, with Marilyn, that was elevated right to the point

00:20:43.160 where she became literally the poster girl for that approach.

00:20:46.180 You know, and then I mentioned Madonna a little earlier.

00:20:50.120 And when Madonna first came on the scene, I thought,

00:20:52.940 she's kind of interesting.

00:20:54.020 She seems to be taking this Marilyn-like archetype,

00:20:57.960 but toying with it consciously.

00:21:00.380 You know, she was a businesswoman, pretty canny. 1.00

00:21:04.320 She seemed to be in charge of her own image, you know.

00:21:07.780 And I thought maybe she had a grip on the archetype,

00:21:11.260 but it isn't obvious to me at all that she did.

00:21:14.960 You know, Madonna's life has been characterized

00:21:17.280 by a continual pattern of sexual attention-seeking.

00:21:22.000 And she's also, I would say, turned into her own parody. 1.00

00:21:26.720 Even in her, I think she's in her late 60s now,

00:21:30.560 if I remember correctly,

00:21:32.040 she's still doing, essentially,

00:21:34.960 she's still doing photo shoots

00:21:36.860 that are leveraging pornographic attractiveness.

00:21:40.880 And I mean, that requires a lot of maintenance and makeup

00:21:44.320 by the time you're at her stage of life.

00:21:46.760 But it doesn't really look to me

00:21:48.200 like it's aged particularly well.

00:21:51.440 And that's the problem with short-term mating strategy,

00:21:54.320 is that it's not a good iterating game.

00:21:56.860 You can't play it with other people continually.

00:21:59.320 You have to have multiple partners.

00:22:01.420 And it's not a good pattern for your whole life course.

00:22:05.000 That's partly what makes it both immoral and unwise,

00:22:08.240 is it just doesn't work across the decades

00:22:11.060 that you're going to be alive.

00:22:13.420 Yes.

00:22:14.400 All right, so back to Marilyn and Hugh.

00:22:17.560 On that point,

00:22:18.740 I decided to call my podcast Maiden Mother Matriarch

00:22:21.600 because it's my hypothesis

00:22:23.460 that one of the features

00:22:25.300 of late 20th, early 21st century culture

00:22:29.160 is that the normal life progression

00:22:31.860 that women are supposed to pass through 1.00

00:22:33.900 from maiden to mother to matriarch

00:22:35.740 has been interrupted.

00:22:39.400 And we now have a very widespread problem

00:22:40.900 of women desperate to remain in maiden mode permanently.

00:22:44.840 And Madonna is a beautiful example of that.

00:22:46.620 She can't find it within herself

00:22:49.980 to accept progressing from maiden to matriarch.

00:22:52.540 And I think that's a lot of...

00:22:54.380 I think the key cause of that

00:22:55.860 is the fact that we don't attach status

00:22:57.740 to mothers and to matriarchs 1.00

00:22:59.840 in the way that we once did.

00:23:02.920 I think that all of the status

00:23:04.240 is loaded onto the maiden role.

00:23:07.480 But it's necessarily, as you say,

00:23:09.460 a role that you can't spend your entire life in.

00:23:11.860 And I think that explains

00:23:12.920 a lot of the psychological dysfunction

00:23:15.120 that women suffer from. 0.65

00:23:16.960 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:23:18.000 Well, I think that's right.

00:23:20.160 So what we have is the domination.

00:23:23.440 You basically laid out a three-part archetype.

00:23:27.400 And it's an archetype of transformation.

00:23:31.080 You know, and I've talked to

00:23:32.320 some pretty bright women on my podcast,

00:23:35.020 and a number of them have commented

00:23:36.820 that as they progress along their careers

00:23:39.700 and as they accrue productive status,

00:23:44.540 so let's say as mothers and matriarchs, 1.00

00:23:46.660 they don't necessarily attain a commensurate status,

00:23:51.840 particularly among young women,

00:23:53.960 interestingly enough.

00:23:55.300 And maybe that's because the women are competing. 1.00

00:23:57.400 You know, I suppose a woman can be attractive 1.00

00:23:59.900 as a mother and a matriarch, 0.97

00:24:01.440 and so the maidens might take exception to that 1.00

00:24:04.380 because it's a form of competition.

00:24:06.400 But I do think, too,

00:24:08.580 that our culture hypervalues the maiden image,

00:24:13.740 especially when that's allied with...

00:24:16.860 It's not virginal maiden

00:24:19.160 that's exactly held up as an icon.

00:24:23.980 You know, even though people like Madonna

00:24:26.680 will play with the idea of virginity

00:24:29.020 as something attractive,

00:24:30.760 it's only there as a sexual magnet,

00:24:34.540 and it's only there tongue-in-cheek

00:24:37.180 in some real sense.

00:24:40.200 And then our culture,

00:24:41.440 because it's a consumer culture,

00:24:42.820 and also because, you know,

00:24:44.740 it concentrates on teenagers a lot

00:24:46.660 because they have disposable income,

00:24:49.140 and it's really the case

00:24:50.400 that our culture became consumerist-oriented

00:24:52.520 when teenagers started to develop disposable income.

00:24:56.220 It's not surprising at all

00:24:57.700 that the consumer market

00:25:00.860 tilts towards the maiden archetype

00:25:02.920 because that's where there's spare money

00:25:04.360 to be vacuumed up.

00:25:05.740 So that's sort of a perfect storm in some sense.

00:25:08.140 And so...

00:25:08.580 But, yeah, so our developing hypothesis

00:25:12.160 here in the podcast,

00:25:13.420 and obviously you've thought this through

00:25:14.660 to a great degree,

00:25:15.480 is that part of the reason

00:25:17.040 that the sexual revolution

00:25:19.200 claiming absolute sexual freedom

00:25:21.640 is pathological

00:25:23.060 is because, well,

00:25:23.900 it enables the male exploiters, 0.99

00:25:26.580 and that's not good at all,

00:25:28.020 but it also isn't a good medium

00:25:30.140 to long-term game.

00:25:31.580 Well, I would say either for women or men.

00:25:33.800 I mean, if you develop a long-term partner

00:25:36.260 in a woman and you're a man, 0.74

00:25:38.740 you might want a woman

00:25:39.660 who has enough sense

00:25:40.740 to move from maiden to mother to matriarch, 0.98

00:25:43.660 and to do that in a manner

00:25:46.160 that facilitates the, you know,

00:25:50.180 the development of the relationship across time.

00:25:53.300 You know, and maybe...

00:25:53.580 I wonder, too,

00:25:54.720 if a woman who does that really well 0.99

00:25:56.600 is as she progresses

00:25:58.440 across that three-part track,

00:26:01.560 also, to some degree,

00:26:03.200 integrates the previous stages

00:26:04.900 as she moves forward.

00:26:06.600 You know, because it might be the case

00:26:08.380 that if you're a successful matriarch, 1.00

00:26:12.200 maybe that's at the point

00:26:13.360 where you become a grandmother

00:26:14.640 or something like that,

00:26:16.500 that you've also integrated mother

00:26:19.080 and even maiden 0.95

00:26:20.180 and are still capable of playing those roles

00:26:22.700 when that's appropriate,

00:26:23.800 but are no longer only limited to them.

00:26:27.040 And I'm not saying

00:26:27.760 that's an easy thing to pull off

00:26:29.080 because, you know,

00:26:30.020 it's not that hard to be...

00:26:31.480 It's not that easy to be, you know,

00:26:33.860 outstandingly sexually attractive,

00:26:36.400 male or female,

00:26:37.360 by the time you're in your 60s, let's say.

00:26:39.960 It gets to be, you know,

00:26:41.160 old age is fighting against that pretty hard,

00:26:43.260 but that doesn't mean

00:26:45.220 that that can't be held forward

00:26:47.980 as, you know, an unattainable ideal

00:26:50.940 to which we all might strive

00:26:52.560 or at least hope might make itself manifest.

00:26:54.860 And I think that's actually...

00:26:56.000 I think that's actually a possibility,

00:26:59.080 you know,

00:26:59.360 that you can move towards something

00:27:02.360 like a full integration.

00:27:04.300 Like Russian dolls, 1.00

00:27:05.800 I think is the perfect image for it.

00:27:07.720 You know, the Russian dolls 0.88

00:27:08.380 that contains the younger,

00:27:10.580 the smaller counterparts in the whole.

00:27:14.200 That's the aspiration.

00:27:15.540 I mean, I think part of the reason

00:27:17.060 that we're so focused on the maiden role

00:27:19.040 is partly, as you say,

00:27:19.920 because it's a very consumerist

00:27:21.440 kind of product.

00:27:23.180 I mean, this strange paradox

00:27:24.440 where on the one hand,

00:27:25.440 I'd say Western society

00:27:26.720 is increasingly gerontocratic

00:27:29.780 in that power and assets primarily

00:27:33.160 are disproportionately held by the old,

00:27:35.700 but it's also still a very,

00:27:37.180 very youth-orientated culture

00:27:38.500 in terms of politics,

00:27:39.640 in terms of, you know, fashion, beauty,

00:27:42.260 all of this kind of stuff.

00:27:43.160 You have that kind of strange tension

00:27:44.860 where young people are simultaneously

00:27:46.360 incredibly culturally powerful,

00:27:48.520 but not actually very economically powerful,

00:27:50.860 which probably actually exacerbates

00:27:52.280 the feelings of tension there.

00:27:54.680 I think another reason for it as well

00:27:56.560 is I think that women's lives 1.00

00:27:59.340 tend to be more clearly segmented

00:28:01.240 by reproductive stage

00:28:04.080 in a way that maybe men's are less so.

00:28:06.500 I think that men's lives change a bit less 0.99

00:28:08.580 when they become fathers,

00:28:09.500 when they become grandfathers.

00:28:10.920 And I think that part of the resistance

00:28:13.440 to this natural progression

00:28:15.380 among women comes from the fact 1.00

00:28:17.960 that so much of feminism of the second wave 1.00

00:28:20.280 has been about trying to be more masculine

00:28:22.680 in every way,

00:28:25.180 in a way that I think

00:28:25.960 is ultimately detrimental to women. 1.00

00:28:27.440 That's why I called Chapter 2

00:28:28.580 Men and Women Are Different, 1.00

00:28:29.700 because I think we have to just start

00:28:31.300 from the premise

00:28:31.940 that men and women are fundamentally different.

00:28:33.540 There is a sexual asymmetry 0.50

00:28:34.640 that is never going away.

00:28:36.220 There are psychological,

00:28:37.160 average psychological,

00:28:38.300 but, you know, nevertheless,

00:28:39.060 at the population level, they matter.

00:28:40.840 There are these differences

00:28:41.540 between men and women.

00:28:42.360 And actually, I think that any kind

00:28:44.620 of productive form of feminism

00:28:45.860 has to start from that recognition

00:28:48.640 that those fundamental differences

00:28:50.780 aren't going anywhere.

00:28:53.620 Yeah.

00:28:54.460 Okay.

00:28:55.040 So let's focus on that now.

00:28:59.460 So now we're off to Chapter 2.

00:29:02.500 I'm going to make a counter case for a minute

00:29:04.540 and then let's hash that out.

00:29:07.400 All right.

00:29:07.820 So we mentioned at the beginning

00:29:10.980 of this podcast

00:29:11.700 that the fundamental biological differentiator,

00:29:16.560 or one of them,

00:29:17.400 because there's a number,

00:29:18.340 is that what makes a creature female 1.00

00:29:22.000 rather than male

00:29:22.880 is a disproportionate contribution

00:29:26.480 to reproduction.

00:29:27.640 And so you even see that

00:29:28.580 with the sperm and the egg.

00:29:30.860 The egg is way, way bigger

00:29:32.280 across the biological universe

00:29:36.280 than the sperm. 0.97

00:29:37.320 And that means the egg

00:29:39.140 has more resources than the sperm.

00:29:41.360 And that is echoed

00:29:42.680 at every stage of sexual interaction

00:29:45.260 in animals and human beings.

00:29:47.120 There's a few exceptions

00:29:48.340 in some regards,

00:29:50.520 like I think male seahorses

00:29:54.060 care for the young, for example.

00:29:56.000 They basically have something

00:29:57.880 approximating a pregnancy.

00:29:59.220 But that's enough of an exception

00:30:02.920 so that most people

00:30:04.860 who are biologically informed

00:30:07.240 know about it.

00:30:08.180 It's extraordinarily rare

00:30:09.300 for the male to take on that role.

00:30:13.160 And so women are the half 1.00

00:30:18.140 of the human race

00:30:18.920 that bears disproportionate responsibility

00:30:21.440 for sexual reproduction,

00:30:25.560 pays a higher cost for it.

00:30:27.380 And that seems to shape everything,

00:30:29.180 including mating strategies.

00:30:30.600 But, but, but,

00:30:31.940 here's the killer.

00:30:35.380 And so we could also say

00:30:36.580 that's been true

00:30:37.300 for the entire course

00:30:38.300 of reproductive history

00:30:40.200 after the emergence of sex,

00:30:42.100 which emerged a very long time ago,

00:30:44.640 biologically speaking.

00:30:46.400 But the pill hit,

00:30:49.760 you know, 50 years ago

00:30:51.180 and was made widespread very rapidly.

00:30:54.740 And what that did in principle

00:30:56.700 and to some degree in reality

00:30:58.540 was give females 1.00

00:31:00.920 voluntary control

00:31:04.020 of their reproductive function

00:31:05.500 really for the first time

00:31:07.580 in biological history.

00:31:09.280 And so that opened up a new question.

00:31:11.460 And this is a question.

00:31:13.900 If a woman has full voluntary control 1.00

00:31:17.360 over her reproductive function, 0.83

00:31:19.800 why isn't she now 0.99

00:31:22.860 just a man?

00:31:25.140 That's one question.

00:31:26.360 Or what exactly

00:31:27.520 distinguishes her from a man?

00:31:29.580 Because one thing

00:31:30.340 that distinguished her

00:31:31.380 was her differential role

00:31:33.420 in reproductive burden. 0.51

00:31:35.100 And now that's been

00:31:36.280 ameliorated,

00:31:38.400 arguably, to some degree.

00:31:40.180 And then also,

00:31:41.680 if reproductive function

00:31:44.020 is now a matter

00:31:44.920 of voluntary choice,

00:31:46.080 why can't sex 0.88

00:31:47.560 just be fun and free?

00:31:51.180 And I would say

00:31:52.040 we've been wrestling

00:31:53.460 with those two questions

00:31:54.660 for 50 years

00:31:55.660 and longer than that

00:31:56.620 insofar as there's been

00:31:58.040 some form of reliable contraception.

00:32:00.160 But it wasn't very damn reliable

00:32:01.580 till the birth control pill

00:32:03.560 kicked in.

00:32:05.140 And so I think

00:32:05.780 it is an open question

00:32:07.080 to what degree

00:32:09.460 can sex just be,

00:32:10.760 you know, 0.94

00:32:12.280 fun and fancy free.

00:32:13.600 And also it's an open question

00:32:15.820 to what degree

00:32:17.720 aren't women 1.00

00:32:18.800 just now

00:32:20.700 the same as men? 0.71

00:32:23.160 And so,

00:32:24.280 well,

00:32:26.080 any comments on that

00:32:27.400 whole line of inquiry

00:32:28.900 are more than welcome.

00:32:30.160 Well, that's the promise,

00:32:31.620 right,

00:32:31.960 of the sexual revolution

00:32:32.860 that we,

00:32:33.900 that by introducing

00:32:34.900 this new

00:32:35.660 technology shock,

00:32:37.600 we do erase

00:32:38.840 the differences

00:32:39.300 between the sexes.

00:32:40.340 And I think that

00:32:40.900 to some extent,

00:32:41.680 if you live

00:32:43.060 a very modern life,

00:32:44.900 you know,

00:32:45.060 it's not just the pill,

00:32:46.060 obviously it's changed

00:32:46.920 in the last 60 years.

00:32:48.000 We also have

00:32:48.500 very different ways

00:32:49.220 of working.

00:32:51.060 People are much less likely

00:32:52.000 to do manual work,

00:32:53.160 at least in the West,

00:32:54.020 than they used to be.

00:32:55.700 We live much more

00:32:57.300 mixed lives.

00:33:00.500 There's much less

00:33:01.100 homosexuality 0.87

00:33:01.920 than there used to be.

00:33:03.260 And so people are

00:33:03.860 interacting in the workplace

00:33:04.720 or whatever

00:33:05.080 in basically

00:33:06.140 an egalitarian fashion

00:33:07.700 between men and women.

00:33:09.300 If you live

00:33:09.900 that kind of life

00:33:11.060 where you're not

00:33:11.840 really using

00:33:12.600 your sexed body

00:33:13.640 for anything,

00:33:14.520 you're just,

00:33:14.980 you know,

00:33:15.400 living the life

00:33:15.840 of the mind,

00:33:16.340 really,

00:33:16.980 you could believe

00:33:17.900 that those differences

00:33:18.500 are trivial.

00:33:19.360 And I think that's

00:33:20.000 where we've had

00:33:21.420 some very strange

00:33:22.340 political ideas

00:33:22.960 around,

00:33:23.300 for instance,

00:33:24.400 having biological males

00:33:27.660 competing in women's sports,

00:33:29.020 you know,

00:33:29.300 is seen to be

00:33:30.780 a completely logical thing

00:33:32.660 from people

00:33:33.380 who do have

00:33:33.840 essentially those lives

00:33:34.840 who probably haven't

00:33:35.540 actually competed in sports.

00:33:36.700 I mean,

00:33:36.840 you'll notice that

00:33:37.520 female athletes 0.99

00:33:38.580 tend to be opposed

00:33:39.400 to this

00:33:40.280 because they tend

00:33:40.840 to be completely aware

00:33:41.800 of the fact

00:33:42.220 that there are

00:33:42.740 huge differences

00:33:44.020 in performance

00:33:44.580 between male

00:33:45.060 and female athletes.

00:33:46.420 But for people...

00:33:47.040 Well, you can usually

00:33:47.480 mob them into silence,

00:33:49.100 though.

00:33:49.600 Yeah,

00:33:49.940 some of them

00:33:50.380 are brave enough

00:33:50.860 to say so,

00:33:51.340 many of them,

00:33:51.900 yeah,

00:33:52.140 as you say.

00:33:53.000 But many people

00:33:53.980 who don't really

00:33:55.640 do sports,

00:33:56.700 who don't live

00:33:57.500 very physical lives,

00:33:58.700 may be genuinely

00:33:59.520 quite oblivious

00:34:00.460 to this fact

00:34:01.980 because that seems

00:34:02.600 to be the promise

00:34:03.840 of technology

00:34:04.340 that it erases

00:34:04.940 this difference.

00:34:05.860 I don't think

00:34:06.480 that it does.

00:34:07.460 I mean,

00:34:07.640 not only because

00:34:08.380 we don't yet have

00:34:09.560 artificial wombs, 0.99

00:34:10.880 we still reproduce

00:34:11.760 the old-fashioned way

00:34:12.760 and I think are likely

00:34:13.740 to for the foreseeable.

00:34:15.020 I don't think

00:34:15.540 artificial wombs 0.83

00:34:16.160 are just around the corner.

00:34:17.020 I think actually

00:34:17.440 they're a spectacularly

00:34:18.300 difficult technology

00:34:19.040 to develop.

00:34:20.260 And also because

00:34:20.980 we still have

00:34:21.720 the same brains,

00:34:23.240 essentially,

00:34:23.920 that our stone age

00:34:24.520 ancestors did.

00:34:25.600 We spent 95%

00:34:26.560 of our species history

00:34:27.600 as hunter-gatherers.

00:34:28.740 It is humanity's

00:34:29.720 first and most

00:34:30.380 successful adaptation.

00:34:32.260 And I think

00:34:32.840 that we can't,

00:34:34.080 no matter how,

00:34:34.860 intelligent we are,

00:34:37.080 no matter how

00:34:37.540 desperately we try,

00:34:38.860 I think it's very,

00:34:39.680 very hard to erase

00:34:41.140 those differences

00:34:41.700 at the psychological level.

00:34:43.700 And the response,

00:34:45.000 interestingly,

00:34:45.420 that I've had

00:34:45.860 to this book

00:34:46.500 since it was published

00:34:47.160 is obviously

00:34:47.760 a hugely controversial title.

00:34:49.120 The whole premise

00:34:49.560 is hugely controversial.

00:34:51.260 But interestingly,

00:34:52.180 I haven't had

00:34:52.840 nearly as much

00:34:54.260 criticism

00:34:55.240 as I thought I would.

00:34:56.720 And I've actually

00:34:57.280 had positive reviews

00:34:58.380 even from left-leaning

00:34:59.480 outlets and so on.

00:35:00.320 I got an amazing review

00:35:01.480 in The Observer,

00:35:02.140 you know.

00:35:02.360 I think it's because

00:35:03.900 actually an enormous

00:35:06.040 number of women 1.00

00:35:06.700 across the political

00:35:07.360 spectrum

00:35:07.800 who have been

00:35:09.060 offered this promise

00:35:11.120 of you can live

00:35:12.400 just like a man, 1.00

00:35:13.120 you can have sex 1.00

00:35:13.680 just like a man, 1.00

00:35:14.860 they are profoundly 1.00

00:35:16.020 miserable. 0.99

00:35:17.320 And they do recognize

00:35:18.560 that actually deep down

00:35:19.780 that promise

00:35:20.880 is an empty one.

00:35:22.420 And I think

00:35:22.980 there's,

00:35:24.260 the emotion

00:35:25.300 that I've had

00:35:25.780 most often

00:35:26.340 from readers

00:35:27.020 is just a sense

00:35:28.020 of relief

00:35:28.640 that someone

00:35:29.820 is saying it 0.54

00:35:30.700 and that it seems

00:35:31.560 as if there's

00:35:32.220 now permission

00:35:32.780 to say it

00:35:34.380 because I think

00:35:35.340 that the effort

00:35:36.640 of trying to

00:35:37.600 pretend that men

00:35:38.320 and women

00:35:38.540 are the same

00:35:39.100 is ultimately

00:35:39.980 ruinous to both

00:35:41.120 sexes.

00:35:42.280 Yeah, well you see

00:35:43.220 this weird phenomenon

00:35:44.940 emerging on the

00:35:47.340 left in particular

00:35:48.460 and I think it's

00:35:49.340 particularly rife

00:35:50.440 in university campuses

00:35:51.820 where you get

00:35:53.620 a combination

00:35:55.020 of compassion

00:35:57.260 and low

00:35:58.080 conscientiousness

00:35:59.120 and high openness

00:36:00.080 driving a particular

00:36:02.280 political mindset

00:36:03.280 and so the compassion

00:36:04.640 means,

00:36:05.700 well we're going

00:36:06.160 to accept everyone

00:36:07.220 and the low

00:36:07.720 conscientiousness

00:36:08.640 means,

00:36:09.600 well we're not

00:36:10.180 bound by anything

00:36:11.560 approximating duty

00:36:12.680 and the high openness

00:36:13.620 means,

00:36:14.860 you know,

00:36:15.120 we're creative

00:36:16.560 and curious

00:36:17.260 about every form

00:36:18.400 of potential

00:36:19.660 self-expression

00:36:21.060 and then

00:36:22.380 that produces

00:36:23.620 this idea

00:36:24.460 that all

00:36:25.240 sexual

00:36:25.920 drive,

00:36:27.660 you have a chapter

00:36:28.480 in your book

00:36:29.040 called

00:36:29.500 something like

00:36:31.200 not all desire

00:36:31.980 is good

00:36:32.560 and so

00:36:33.640 we'll talk about

00:36:35.120 that a little bit

00:36:35.780 we have this

00:36:36.900 there's this

00:36:37.600 absolute

00:36:38.400 clamoring insistence

00:36:42.040 that

00:36:42.300 every form of

00:36:43.800 sexual desire

00:36:44.880 and behavior

00:36:46.060 is to be

00:36:47.160 valued

00:36:47.780 celebrated

00:36:49.120 and promoted

00:36:50.320 and that if you

00:36:51.160 dare oppose that

00:36:52.440 you are

00:36:53.120 there's something

00:36:56.340 immoral

00:36:56.740 about the

00:36:57.200 opposition

00:36:57.640 so that's

00:36:58.360 merely a

00:36:58.980 consequence

00:36:59.400 let's say

00:37:00.000 of your

00:37:00.300 bigotry

00:37:00.900 but

00:37:01.660 and so

00:37:02.420 you know

00:37:03.280 and

00:37:03.800 you pointed out

00:37:05.280 in your book

00:37:05.680 that

00:37:05.920 you often get

00:37:07.400 artistic types

00:37:08.500 like Andre Geed

00:37:09.440 let's say

00:37:09.940 and left-wing

00:37:10.520 intellectuals

00:37:11.240 pushing

00:37:11.560 for full

00:37:12.700 sexual freedom

00:37:13.600 and some of

00:37:15.000 that's high

00:37:15.460 openness

00:37:15.820 and some of

00:37:16.300 that's low

00:37:16.760 conscientiousness

00:37:17.780 that's for sure

00:37:18.940 but then

00:37:20.020 there's a

00:37:20.480 kickback

00:37:21.000 that's really

00:37:21.580 interesting to me

00:37:22.640 because it's

00:37:23.920 the same

00:37:24.500 radicals

00:37:25.500 possessed by

00:37:26.320 exactly the

00:37:27.180 same set of

00:37:27.820 ideas

00:37:28.240 who make

00:37:29.460 a very

00:37:30.320 radical

00:37:30.920 counterclaim

00:37:31.880 and the

00:37:32.880 counterclaim

00:37:33.580 is something

00:37:34.080 like

00:37:34.480 well every

00:37:35.720 form of

00:37:36.280 sexual behavior

00:37:37.100 is

00:37:37.500 must be

00:37:38.860 celebrated

00:37:39.380 and it's

00:37:39.880 nothing but

00:37:40.500 a testament

00:37:41.040 to the

00:37:41.620 ever-blossoming

00:37:42.720 range of

00:37:43.300 human freedom

00:37:43.940 but

00:37:45.220 every form

00:37:46.700 of sexual

00:37:47.260 interaction

00:37:47.920 between

00:37:48.480 particularly

00:37:49.240 a young

00:37:49.800 man

00:37:50.100 and a young

00:37:50.540 woman 0.99

00:37:50.860 is so 1.00

00:37:51.880 dangerous

00:37:52.580 right to

00:37:53.240 its core

00:37:53.840 that

00:37:54.640 there's

00:37:55.620 nothing more

00:37:56.420 important

00:37:57.220 than

00:37:57.840 full consent

00:37:58.980 and that

00:38:00.160 consent

00:38:00.460 has to be

00:38:01.140 documented

00:38:01.700 verbally

00:38:02.240 and maybe

00:38:03.280 even beyond

00:38:04.040 verbally

00:38:04.480 formally

00:38:04.980 for even

00:38:06.020 interactions

00:38:06.680 as

00:38:07.280 that were

00:38:08.380 once as

00:38:09.140 casual

00:38:09.860 let's say

00:38:10.460 as

00:38:11.220 dancing

00:38:12.520 and so

00:38:13.380 at Princeton

00:38:13.960 University

00:38:14.540 for example

00:38:15.280 there was a

00:38:16.080 push 0.64

00:38:17.140 to

00:38:17.980 make men

00:38:19.280 ensure

00:38:19.680 that even

00:38:20.400 when they're

00:38:21.500 dancing

00:38:22.080 with a

00:38:22.680 girl who

00:38:23.280 agreed to

00:38:24.380 dance

00:38:24.920 that it

00:38:25.620 was incumbent

00:38:26.320 upon them

00:38:27.120 multiple times

00:38:28.600 during the

00:38:29.280 dance

00:38:29.700 to ask

00:38:30.940 verbally

00:38:31.380 to ensure

00:38:32.060 that that

00:38:32.580 once established

00:38:33.500 consent

00:38:34.200 was still

00:38:35.340 continuing

00:38:35.960 now

00:38:36.680 now you know

00:38:37.040 if you weren't

00:38:37.820 being cynical

00:38:38.400 about that

00:38:39.080 you might

00:38:39.440 say

00:38:39.720 well

00:38:40.020 that's

00:38:40.700 a stumbling

00:38:41.320 attempt

00:38:41.780 to something

00:38:42.480 approximating

00:38:43.940 awake

00:38:44.920 politeness

00:38:45.800 because if you

00:38:46.460 have any

00:38:46.880 sense

00:38:47.360 when you're

00:38:48.560 dancing with

00:38:49.140 someone

00:38:49.420 one of the

00:38:49.900 things you

00:38:50.320 actually want

00:38:51.020 to know

00:38:51.320 is

00:38:51.580 do they

00:38:52.440 really want

00:38:53.080 to be

00:38:53.360 doing it

00:38:53.980 but it's

00:38:55.200 very peculiar

00:38:55.940 to me

00:38:56.420 and illuminating

00:38:57.500 that this

00:38:58.920 insistence

00:39:00.360 on negotiated

00:39:02.200 contract

00:39:02.900 for every

00:39:03.880 step of a

00:39:04.840 potentially sexual

00:39:06.500 interaction

00:39:07.100 is being

00:39:07.780 insisted upon

00:39:08.980 not by

00:39:09.940 Christian

00:39:10.500 apologists

00:39:11.280 for traditional

00:39:12.000 morality

00:39:12.480 but by the

00:39:13.220 same radicals

00:39:14.080 who are

00:39:14.960 out there

00:39:15.460 dancing

00:39:16.280 three quarters

00:39:17.260 naked in the

00:39:18.040 street in their

00:39:18.680 dog costumes

00:39:19.580 and insisting

00:39:20.980 that you know

00:39:21.620 every bit

00:39:22.220 of sexual

00:39:22.740 expression

00:39:23.260 is to be

00:39:24.460 lauded

00:39:24.920 my suspicion

00:39:26.340 with what's

00:39:27.200 going on

00:39:27.840 there

00:39:28.200 with this

00:39:29.160 rise of

00:39:29.780 sort of

00:39:30.180 starting a

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00:40:36.120 slash jbp

00:40:37.240 a bureaucratic

00:40:41.200 a bureaucratic

00:40:42.220 attitude to

00:40:43.240 sex

00:40:43.500 shall we say

00:40:44.040 this idea

00:40:44.680 of asking

00:40:46.100 for consent

00:40:46.660 at every

00:40:47.020 stage

00:40:47.360 and so on

00:40:47.780 I mean

00:40:47.960 the funniest

00:40:48.320 example

00:40:48.700 which I

00:40:49.040 mentioned

00:40:49.580 briefly

00:40:49.860 in the

00:40:50.080 book

00:40:50.320 is an

00:40:51.680 idea

00:40:52.000 cooked up

00:40:52.400 Western

00:40:52.620 University

00:40:52.940 students

00:40:53.420 that you

00:40:53.700 would have

00:40:54.060 sign a

00:40:54.520 contract

00:40:54.900 before you

00:40:55.400 had casual 0.84

00:40:56.120 sex 0.99

00:40:56.520 and you 0.98

00:40:57.100 take a

00:40:57.480 photo

00:40:57.760 of the

00:40:59.520 pair of you

00:41:00.080 with your

00:41:00.360 contracts

00:41:00.800 and so on

00:41:01.240 and the

00:41:02.020 joke

00:41:02.280 obviously

00:41:02.680 is why

00:41:03.720 not get

00:41:04.300 dressed up

00:41:04.640 in a big

00:41:04.920 white dress

00:41:05.400 why not

00:41:05.740 invite all

00:41:06.120 your friends

00:41:06.500 you know

00:41:06.780 it's this

00:41:07.060 sort of

00:41:07.700 reinvention

00:41:08.160 of marriage

00:41:08.760 I think

00:41:09.680 that's

00:41:11.060 basically

00:41:11.440 what is

00:41:11.840 going on

00:41:12.780 we're married

00:41:13.100 for the

00:41:13.500 day

00:41:13.840 that's

00:41:14.280 the

00:41:14.500 concept

00:41:14.840 I think

00:41:15.820 what's

00:41:16.080 going on

00:41:16.540 with this

00:41:16.900 reintroduction

00:41:17.700 of these

00:41:18.040 new rules

00:41:19.160 post Me Too

00:41:20.180 is that

00:41:21.520 complete sexual

00:41:23.700 freedom is not

00:41:24.480 actually a

00:41:24.960 sustainable

00:41:25.340 system

00:41:25.880 and what

00:41:27.140 we've had

00:41:27.820 for

00:41:28.660 many centuries

00:41:30.880 millennia

00:41:31.400 up until the

00:41:32.000 1960s

00:41:32.660 really

00:41:32.980 is a

00:41:33.740 very

00:41:34.200 complicated

00:41:35.880 tapestry

00:41:36.540 of laws

00:41:37.460 and norms

00:41:38.320 which regulate

00:41:39.580 sexuality

00:41:40.860 and which

00:41:41.300 particularly

00:41:41.840 regulate

00:41:42.300 heterosexuality 0.83

00:41:43.200 because what

00:41:44.040 you're dealing

00:41:44.680 with when

00:41:45.640 it comes to

00:41:46.000 heterosexuality 0.83

00:41:46.860 is great

00:41:48.620 imbalances of

00:41:49.440 physical strength

00:41:50.200 the fundamental

00:41:50.980 imbalance of

00:41:52.080 reproductive roles 0.95

00:41:53.180 and also

00:41:54.260 personality

00:41:54.740 differences

00:41:55.280 and you know

00:41:56.040 all of this

00:41:56.480 which make it

00:41:57.060 very it's just

00:41:57.600 inherently very

00:41:58.140 very difficult

00:41:58.600 to deal with

00:42:00.060 mating

00:42:00.520 smoothly

00:42:01.420 there is a lot

00:42:02.040 of heartache

00:42:02.540 there is a lot

00:42:02.940 of risk

00:42:03.460 and what we

00:42:04.540 have in most

00:42:05.740 societies

00:42:06.240 is this

00:42:07.460 complex dance

00:42:08.840 of marriage

00:42:10.580 customs

00:42:11.120 and you know

00:42:12.580 thinking more

00:42:13.060 recently in the

00:42:13.640 west

00:42:13.960 chaperones

00:42:14.820 and asking

00:42:16.160 the father's

00:42:17.500 hand

00:42:17.920 and all of

00:42:18.420 these things

00:42:18.920 which are

00:42:19.520 supposed to

00:42:19.920 basically

00:42:20.420 control sexuality

00:42:23.600 I mean

00:42:23.880 the progressive

00:42:25.880 account of this

00:42:26.660 is that they

00:42:27.080 repress people's

00:42:27.940 sexuality

00:42:28.400 to which I

00:42:29.220 say yes

00:42:29.600 they do

00:42:30.020 but they

00:42:30.580 do that

00:42:31.220 because they

00:42:31.580 have to

00:42:31.920 because that

00:42:32.580 is

00:42:32.780 completely

00:42:34.080 untrammeled

00:42:35.000 sexual freedom

00:42:35.900 is not possible

00:42:37.060 because of

00:42:38.040 you can't run

00:42:38.940 a society

00:42:39.360 like that

00:42:39.900 and because you

00:42:40.820 will inevitably

00:42:41.740 have people

00:42:42.120 coming into

00:42:42.560 conflict with

00:42:43.020 one another

00:42:43.380 if that's

00:42:43.680 permitted

00:42:43.960 so you need

00:42:44.760 people to be

00:42:45.520 men and women

00:42:46.640 to be repressed

00:42:47.300 I think that's

00:42:47.680 what marriage

00:42:48.080 does

00:42:48.540 but in a good

00:42:50.220 way

00:42:50.480 you know

00:42:50.960 as a necessary

00:42:52.240 step towards

00:42:53.040 having productive

00:42:53.560 relationships

00:42:54.080 and I think

00:42:54.820 there's an

00:42:55.160 attempt to

00:42:55.620 kind of reinvent

00:42:56.380 that with

00:42:57.220 this new

00:42:57.580 bureaucracy

00:42:58.000 but it's

00:42:58.780 not nearly

00:42:59.160 as good

00:42:59.540 yeah yeah

00:43:01.400 well okay

00:43:02.200 so here's

00:43:03.020 the rule

00:43:03.380 is that

00:43:03.760 responsibility

00:43:04.480 abdicated

00:43:05.400 is vacuumed

00:43:06.240 up by

00:43:06.700 tyrants

00:43:07.220 and so if

00:43:08.300 young men

00:43:09.240 and young

00:43:09.540 women aren't 1.00

00:43:10.040 regulating

00:43:10.460 their own

00:43:10.820 sexual behavior 0.55

00:43:11.600 then tyrannical 0.97

00:43:12.440 bureaucrats

00:43:13.080 will definitely

00:43:13.800 step in

00:43:14.500 to have fun

00:43:15.320 on that front

00:43:16.040 so but

00:43:17.120 you brought up

00:43:18.980 two points

00:43:19.680 that we could

00:43:20.280 pursue

00:43:20.840 and one is

00:43:21.600 an analysis

00:43:22.980 of what actually

00:43:23.840 constitutes

00:43:24.560 consent

00:43:26.020 and then

00:43:27.240 we could start

00:43:29.340 with that

00:43:29.720 and then the

00:43:30.180 other one

00:43:30.540 was

00:43:30.900 let me see

00:43:32.100 if I've

00:43:32.740 exactly got

00:43:33.540 this

00:43:33.940 oh yes

00:43:36.060 inhibition

00:43:38.040 and oppression

00:43:38.700 let's say

00:43:39.460 of sexual

00:43:40.600 desire

00:43:41.380 see

00:43:42.100 this

00:43:43.540 this is

00:43:44.000 something that

00:43:44.560 has to be

00:43:45.460 handled

00:43:45.960 conceptually

00:43:47.340 very carefully

00:43:48.040 so there's

00:43:49.420 different models

00:43:50.240 of

00:43:50.840 socialization

00:43:53.020 that permeate

00:43:53.960 the

00:43:54.300 let's say

00:43:54.920 the psychological

00:43:55.560 community

00:43:56.840 and one of

00:43:58.200 them is an

00:43:58.720 ethos of

00:43:59.460 something like

00:44:00.220 inhibition

00:44:01.060 and repression

00:44:02.520 and so

00:44:03.500 the Freudians

00:44:04.640 sort of fall

00:44:05.120 into that

00:44:05.560 camp

00:44:05.880 that the

00:44:06.640 superego

00:44:07.260 inhibits

00:44:07.920 the id

00:44:08.860 and squashes

00:44:11.320 it down

00:44:11.900 I'd say

00:44:12.520 and that

00:44:12.980 part of

00:44:13.920 what makes

00:44:14.400 you

00:44:14.680 a social

00:44:15.460 being

00:44:15.840 is your

00:44:16.440 ability

00:44:17.140 to

00:44:17.620 suppress

00:44:18.680 and inhibit

00:44:19.600 desires

00:44:21.900 like aggression

00:44:22.620 and sex

00:44:23.280 and I don't

00:44:25.480 think that's

00:44:26.040 true

00:44:26.380 I only think

00:44:28.480 that's true

00:44:29.020 when it's

00:44:29.560 gone wrong

00:44:30.240 so here's

00:44:31.560 an alternative

00:44:32.060 viewpoint

00:44:32.580 this is

00:44:33.120 the viewpoint

00:44:33.900 of people

00:44:34.460 like Jean

00:44:35.480 Piaget

00:44:35.980 who's a

00:44:37.020 great

00:44:37.200 developmental

00:44:37.720 psychologist

00:44:38.340 he thought

00:44:40.020 of the

00:44:40.560 developmental

00:44:41.820 process

00:44:42.360 as one

00:44:42.880 of

00:44:43.000 integration

00:44:43.600 now you

00:44:44.180 know you

00:44:44.420 already put

00:44:44.900 forth a

00:44:45.400 three-stage

00:44:45.980 model of

00:44:46.520 female development 0.83

00:44:47.320 and you

00:44:47.700 could think

00:44:48.040 about that

00:44:48.520 as a

00:44:49.420 continuing

00:44:49.960 model of

00:44:50.840 complex

00:44:51.460 integration

00:44:52.100 and so

00:44:52.960 the reason

00:44:53.460 that sex 0.95

00:44:54.060 becomes

00:44:54.660 regulated

00:44:56.000 isn't because

00:44:57.160 it's now

00:44:57.600 being inhibited

00:44:58.500 it's being

00:44:59.980 regulated because

00:45:00.820 it's being

00:45:01.260 integrated into

00:45:02.200 higher order

00:45:02.860 games

00:45:03.420 and so

00:45:04.380 it's being

00:45:05.240 integrated

00:45:05.660 for example

00:45:06.380 and maybe

00:45:08.100 can even be

00:45:08.700 celebrated

00:45:09.180 within this

00:45:09.980 confined area

00:45:11.900 of or

00:45:12.520 regulated area

00:45:13.420 of integration

00:45:14.140 it's becoming

00:45:15.260 integrated with

00:45:16.120 the more

00:45:16.740 mature

00:45:17.100 realization

00:45:17.840 that sex 0.95

00:45:19.040 outside of

00:45:20.020 an iterated

00:45:20.760 relationship

00:45:21.480 is actually

00:45:22.580 a net

00:45:23.060 negative

00:45:23.580 even for

00:45:24.640 the parties

00:45:25.180 involved

00:45:25.680 even if

00:45:26.300 they're

00:45:26.500 primarily

00:45:26.940 motivated

00:45:27.560 by their

00:45:28.560 own

00:45:29.020 hedonism

00:45:30.160 and then

00:45:30.780 hypothetically

00:45:31.360 their own

00:45:31.820 will

00:45:32.140 and so

00:45:32.820 it isn't

00:45:33.260 inhibition

00:45:33.880 that's

00:45:34.220 regulating

00:45:34.740 sex

00:45:35.580 and it

00:45:36.100 isn't

00:45:36.420 top-down

00:45:37.020 social

00:45:37.460 control

00:45:38.020 it's

00:45:38.760 the

00:45:38.960 necessity

00:45:39.500 of

00:45:39.820 integrating

00:45:40.360 sex

00:45:41.420 which can

00:45:41.840 be just

00:45:42.200 a

00:45:42.340 unimensional

00:45:42.860 desire

00:45:43.400 into a

00:45:43.900 much more

00:45:44.320 sophisticated

00:45:44.860 symphony

00:45:45.620 of social

00:45:46.200 interactions

00:45:46.840 now

00:45:47.620 when that

00:45:48.560 fails

00:45:49.360 inhibition

00:45:51.220 is necessary

00:45:52.160 right

00:45:52.980 so if you

00:45:53.460 have someone

00:45:53.980 who's acting

00:45:54.680 in an

00:45:54.960 antisocial

00:45:55.600 manner

00:45:56.000 parading

00:45:56.980 their

00:45:57.240 sexuality

00:45:57.880 insisting

00:45:59.240 upon

00:45:59.560 short-term

00:46:00.140 gratification

00:46:00.900 at their

00:46:01.320 own expense

00:46:02.000 and that

00:46:02.340 of others

00:46:02.760 then

00:46:03.540 compulsion

00:46:04.480 might have

00:46:05.380 to be

00:46:05.660 brought

00:46:05.920 to bear

00:46:06.680 but that

00:46:07.560 indicates a

00:46:08.220 failure of

00:46:08.880 the proper

00:46:09.320 developmental

00:46:09.840 pathway

00:46:10.320 rather than

00:46:10.880 a manifestation

00:46:11.520 of a

00:46:12.340 necessarily

00:46:13.000 oppressive

00:46:13.680 patriarchy 0.85

00:46:14.860 and that's a

00:46:15.920 much more

00:46:16.300 positive vision

00:46:17.120 of the

00:46:18.400 regulation

00:46:19.060 of sexual

00:46:20.320 behavior

00:46:20.700 it's more

00:46:21.120 like ordered

00:46:21.780 freedom

00:46:22.300 rather than

00:46:23.520 inhibition

00:46:24.160 and that

00:46:25.440 also opens

00:46:26.100 up the

00:46:26.440 other

00:46:26.720 another

00:46:27.280 positive

00:46:27.960 idea

00:46:29.140 which is

00:46:29.680 that

00:46:29.960 you know

00:46:31.080 we've

00:46:31.480 thought

00:46:31.880 toyed

00:46:32.980 with the

00:46:33.280 idea

00:46:33.580 that

00:46:33.880 the

00:46:34.520 birth

00:46:34.720 control

00:46:35.100 pill

00:46:35.400 meant

00:46:35.800 that

00:46:36.280 impulsive

00:46:36.700 hedonism

00:46:37.300 could now

00:46:37.780 rule

00:46:38.200 and that

00:46:39.220 that would

00:46:39.540 be the

00:46:39.860 highest

00:46:40.180 form of

00:46:40.720 sexual

00:46:41.060 expression

00:46:41.560 and the 1.00

00:46:41.980 idiot 1.00

00:46:42.220 artists 1.00

00:46:42.660 who jumped

00:46:43.200 on that

00:46:43.640 bandwagon

00:46:44.200 were certainly

00:46:44.760 of that

00:46:45.200 mind

00:46:45.600 but what

00:46:47.280 we're seeing

00:46:47.720 instead is

00:46:48.380 that young

00:46:49.360 men and

00:46:49.720 women are 1.00

00:46:50.500 turning in

00:46:52.000 all ever

00:46:52.540 greater numbers

00:46:53.320 to a very

00:46:54.740 casual

00:46:55.260 pornography

00:46:55.980 especially with

00:46:56.780 regards to

00:46:57.320 the boys

00:46:57.780 to the

00:46:58.500 abandonment

00:46:59.200 of any

00:46:59.500 relationships

00:47:00.120 whatsoever

00:47:00.640 and then

00:47:01.440 interestingly

00:47:02.140 enough

00:47:02.700 it seems

00:47:04.360 to much

00:47:05.500 less sexual

00:47:06.320 activity in

00:47:07.180 general

00:47:07.620 I think

00:47:08.580 it's 30%

00:47:09.600 now of

00:47:10.260 Japanese

00:47:10.920 I think

00:47:11.840 it's 30%

00:47:12.640 of Japanese

00:47:13.480 young people

00:47:14.740 under 30

00:47:15.440 are still

00:47:16.460 virgins

00:47:17.000 30%

00:47:18.060 and similar

00:47:19.120 figures in

00:47:19.760 South Korea

00:47:20.340 and you can

00:47:21.060 see the same

00:47:21.700 proclivity

00:47:22.260 emerging in

00:47:22.840 the West

00:47:23.240 so what's

00:47:24.160 happening

00:47:24.500 paradoxically

00:47:25.380 is that

00:47:25.900 by removing

00:47:27.120 all the

00:47:27.740 principles

00:47:28.560 from sexual

00:47:30.480 interaction

00:47:31.080 not the

00:47:31.780 inhibitions

00:47:32.300 but the

00:47:32.720 principles

00:47:33.200 we're actually

00:47:34.200 dooming the

00:47:35.020 sexual enterprise

00:47:35.980 rather than

00:47:36.600 facilitating it

00:47:37.560 even for

00:47:38.460 the hedonists

00:47:39.340 so anyways

00:47:41.180 it's very useful

00:47:42.240 to know that

00:47:42.820 there's an

00:47:43.160 integration

00:47:43.620 model rather

00:47:44.280 than an

00:47:44.680 inhibition

00:47:45.140 model

00:47:45.460 right

00:47:45.720 because it

00:47:46.620 also stops

00:47:48.100 those who

00:47:49.420 might oppose

00:47:50.280 the sexual

00:47:52.100 revolution

00:47:52.680 from just

00:47:53.700 being finger

00:47:54.580 wagging

00:47:55.040 conservative

00:47:55.680 moralists

00:47:56.500 because you

00:47:56.940 can say

00:47:57.240 no no

00:47:57.660 you're going

00:47:58.400 to have a

00:47:58.820 way better

00:47:59.320 sex life

00:48:00.180 in every

00:48:02.100 possible way

00:48:02.900 if you

00:48:03.160 actually like

00:48:03.800 fall in

00:48:04.420 love with

00:48:04.800 someone

00:48:05.140 and have

00:48:06.300 a long

00:48:07.060 term

00:48:07.240 relationship

00:48:07.760 and I

00:48:08.440 think the

00:48:08.960 psychological

00:48:09.880 the statistical

00:48:10.680 data on that

00:48:11.460 are pretty

00:48:11.760 clear too

00:48:12.360 most single

00:48:13.860 people don't

00:48:14.380 have a lot

00:48:14.800 of sex 0.99

00:48:15.260 the phrase

00:48:15.680 that I

00:48:15.920 use in

00:48:16.160 the book

00:48:16.380 to describe

00:48:16.860 this exact

00:48:17.280 phenomenon

00:48:17.640 where you

00:48:17.960 on the

00:48:18.180 one hand

00:48:18.760 have hyper

00:48:19.480 sexual

00:48:20.320 public life

00:48:21.180 you can

00:48:22.200 walk down

00:48:22.980 any street

00:48:23.460 and see

00:48:24.080 women in 0.62

00:48:24.900 lingerie

00:48:26.100 on posters

00:48:26.660 or watch

00:48:27.220 TV

00:48:27.580 and there's

00:48:28.240 very explicit

00:48:29.120 sex scenes

00:48:29.580 etc

00:48:29.860 so on the

00:48:30.280 one hand

00:48:30.600 we've had

00:48:30.860 this amazing

00:48:31.300 ramping up

00:48:32.040 of sexuality

00:48:33.780 in public

00:48:34.240 life

00:48:34.600 but on the

00:48:35.340 other hand

00:48:35.720 exactly as

00:48:36.220 you say

00:48:36.480 we have

00:48:36.880 what's

00:48:37.400 sometimes called

00:48:38.260 the sex 0.61

00:48:38.620 recession

00:48:39.000 the fact

00:48:39.340 that people

00:48:39.660 are having

00:48:40.100 sex later

00:48:41.300 less frequently

00:48:42.060 I think

00:48:42.960 what's happening

00:48:43.500 generally is

00:48:44.120 people are

00:48:44.520 having probably

00:48:45.400 more casual 0.88

00:48:46.040 sex but 0.78

00:48:46.680 they're having 0.95

00:48:47.660 sex less

00:48:48.220 frequently

00:48:48.760 so when they

00:48:49.620 are having

00:48:50.060 sex it's more 0.91

00:48:50.600 likely to be

00:48:51.080 casual but

00:48:51.640 they're not

00:48:51.960 forming these

00:48:52.460 long-standing

00:48:53.300 relationships

00:48:53.800 and the term

00:48:55.180 that I use

00:48:55.580 in the book

00:48:55.980 is cultural

00:48:57.100 death grip

00:48:57.520 syndrome

00:48:57.840 taken from

00:48:59.640 the quasi

00:49:00.480 medical term

00:49:01.240 death grip

00:49:02.000 syndrome which

00:49:02.820 is used by

00:49:03.860 compulsive porn

00:49:05.180 users to

00:49:05.880 describe the

00:49:06.820 physical experience

00:49:07.940 impotence

00:49:09.040 when you

00:49:09.320 use too 0.92

00:49:09.620 much porn 0.82

00:49:10.020 you get to

00:49:10.960 the point

00:49:11.180 where you

00:49:11.360 actually can't

00:49:11.800 be aroused

00:49:12.260 either physically

00:49:12.840 or psychologically

00:49:13.420 in real life

00:49:15.260 because you use 0.92

00:49:16.000 so much porn 0.99

00:49:16.420 and I think 0.91

00:49:16.920 cultural death 0.95

00:49:17.620 grip syndrome

00:49:18.100 is the

00:49:19.740 counterpart to

00:49:20.420 that where

00:49:21.520 on the one

00:49:22.800 hand we have

00:49:23.300 this astounding

00:49:24.120 availability of

00:49:24.880 sexual stimuli

00:49:25.580 at the click

00:49:26.660 of a button

00:49:27.040 at any moment

00:49:27.560 anything that

00:49:28.240 you can imagine

00:49:28.760 is available

00:49:29.160 on the internet

00:49:29.620 immediately

00:49:30.100 and that

00:49:31.400 seems to be

00:49:32.600 demotivating

00:49:34.140 people to

00:49:35.080 actually seek out

00:49:35.800 meaningful sexual

00:49:36.520 relationships which

00:49:37.320 in the long

00:49:38.000 term are

00:49:39.360 vastly better

00:49:40.040 for us in

00:49:40.840 every possible

00:49:41.300 way but we

00:49:43.280 have a culture

00:49:44.160 enabled by

00:49:44.760 technology which

00:49:45.600 is very very

00:49:46.740 short term in

00:49:47.260 every way so

00:49:48.460 people are

00:49:48.820 channeled towards

00:49:49.560 that kind of

00:49:50.160 immediate relief

00:49:51.220 that disincentivizes

00:49:53.620 proper yeah

00:49:54.380 it's I think

00:49:55.800 the rule is

00:49:56.620 something like

00:49:57.300 unearned

00:49:58.420 surfeit turns

00:49:59.560 into revulsion

00:50:00.620 right right

00:50:03.340 it's it's too

00:50:04.200 too much of a

00:50:05.080 good thing means

00:50:06.320 that it's no

00:50:06.920 longer a good

00:50:07.640 thing and

00:50:09.080 that you know

00:50:10.240 and that goes

00:50:11.140 along with an

00:50:11.740 idea too that

00:50:12.420 there's something

00:50:12.960 like optimal

00:50:13.780 deprivation right

00:50:14.940 I mean look

00:50:15.900 let's say you've

00:50:16.920 just had a big

00:50:17.580 banquet and

00:50:18.240 someone sits you

00:50:19.060 down and says

00:50:19.660 well now you

00:50:20.140 have to eat

00:50:20.560 five pounds of

00:50:21.440 dessert it's

00:50:22.820 like the first

00:50:24.060 of all that's

00:50:24.500 not going to be

00:50:24.860 a very attractive

00:50:25.560 proposition and

00:50:26.500 second of all it

00:50:27.140 might actually make

00:50:27.920 you ill is that

00:50:28.840 everything has to

00:50:29.960 be in proper

00:50:30.500 proportion and

00:50:31.260 one of the

00:50:32.020 things we really

00:50:32.760 haven't contended

00:50:33.560 with at all in

00:50:34.280 our society is

00:50:35.380 how much

00:50:36.840 desperation is

00:50:38.120 necessary on the

00:50:39.140 sexual front to

00:50:39.980 drive young men 0.98

00:50:40.860 and young women

00:50:41.440 together and the

00:50:42.720 answer is not

00:50:43.880 zero and the

00:50:45.260 problem with

00:50:45.820 pornography one of

00:50:46.880 many problems is

00:50:47.920 that drives

00:50:48.860 desperation on the

00:50:50.140 male front down

00:50:50.980 to zero now I

00:50:52.300 know perfectly well

00:50:53.840 from my clinical

00:50:54.620 experience that the

00:50:56.420 standard state of

00:50:58.400 most young men

00:50:59.520 especially under

00:51:00.600 20 let's say

00:51:02.180 is pretty much

00:51:04.320 terror in the face

00:51:05.520 of a woman who

00:51:06.320 they're very

00:51:06.860 attracted to and

00:51:08.660 the reason for

00:51:09.260 that is that

00:51:10.120 well there's all

00:51:11.540 sorts of reasons

00:51:12.180 but the primary

00:51:13.080 reason is the

00:51:13.860 probability that

00:51:14.640 any given male

00:51:15.740 even one who's

00:51:17.180 very attractive

00:51:18.020 let's say in

00:51:19.200 multiple ways is

00:51:20.480 going to be

00:51:21.080 rejected by any

00:51:22.360 given female

00:51:23.220 especially a

00:51:24.000 high value female 0.99

00:51:25.020 who has a lot of

00:51:26.320 people attracted to

00:51:27.240 her is extremely

00:51:27.940 high so

00:51:29.380 there are classic

00:51:30.400 psychological

00:51:30.960 experiments showing

00:51:32.000 this you know if

00:51:32.680 you if you send

00:51:33.840 attractive undergraduates

00:51:35.600 out to talk to

00:51:36.800 other undergraduates

00:51:37.900 to offer sexual

00:51:39.780 access say well 0.97

00:51:41.140 you know would you

00:51:42.240 be willing to have

00:51:42.920 coffee with me

00:51:43.640 would you be willing

00:51:44.380 to give me your

00:51:45.120 phone number would

00:51:45.760 you be willing to

00:51:46.460 come back to my

00:51:47.100 apartment if the

00:51:48.440 girls offer that 0.99

00:51:49.440 then whoever

00:51:51.760 they're offering

00:51:52.400 that to on the

00:51:53.380 male front will

00:51:54.140 take them up on

00:51:55.520 their offer but

00:51:57.180 if the boys

00:51:58.580 offer that

00:51:59.300 even when

00:52:00.080 they're attractive

00:52:00.960 the probability

00:52:02.080 that their

00:52:02.740 advances will be

00:52:03.720 rejected is

00:52:04.880 extremely high

00:52:05.700 and so young

00:52:06.800 men face the

00:52:07.560 uncomfortable

00:52:08.020 situation where

00:52:09.440 even if they're

00:52:10.240 competent and

00:52:11.080 will turn

00:52:11.620 eventually into

00:52:12.460 useful men

00:52:13.300 which isn't the

00:52:15.160 status of most

00:52:16.360 very young men

00:52:17.300 the probability

00:52:18.760 that they'll be

00:52:19.500 rejected is

00:52:20.440 extremely high

00:52:21.320 and then it's

00:52:22.980 also the case

00:52:23.740 that there's

00:52:24.200 little that's

00:52:24.940 more psychologically

00:52:25.960 impactful than

00:52:27.880 such rejection

00:52:29.020 especially if it's

00:52:30.720 undertaken by

00:52:31.420 someone to whom

00:52:32.160 there's a genuine

00:52:32.840 attraction so that

00:52:34.120 means that boys

00:52:35.320 are paralyzed

00:52:37.340 into terror

00:52:38.780 I think that's

00:52:40.260 not too exaggerated

00:52:41.580 a term by the

00:52:43.660 mere fact of

00:52:44.520 attractive women 1.00

00:52:45.380 and so you know

00:52:46.320 they slough that 0.98

00:52:48.340 off and they make

00:52:49.080 derogating jokes and

00:52:50.180 so forth to try to

00:52:51.080 get over that but

00:52:51.780 doesn't change the

00:52:53.740 basic reality

00:52:54.460 that also means

00:52:55.660 that a certain

00:52:56.240 percentage of males

00:52:57.240 and it's not low

00:52:58.540 really it could

00:52:59.940 easily be like

00:53:02.420 30% are just

00:53:03.840 paralyzed into

00:53:04.660 utter stasis by

00:53:07.580 the possibility of

00:53:09.000 rejection especially

00:53:09.860 because they haven't

00:53:10.580 been fortified against

00:53:11.940 it with their

00:53:13.340 dependency inducing

00:53:14.600 upbringing unless

00:53:15.780 they're driven

00:53:16.460 forward by a

00:53:17.380 certain amount of

00:53:17.980 desperation some of

00:53:19.440 which needs to be

00:53:20.220 sexual there's

00:53:21.280 actually they're

00:53:22.400 never going to

00:53:22.840 go they're never

00:53:23.760 going to break

00:53:24.140 through that

00:53:24.560 barrier and so

00:53:27.300 then they can

00:53:27.960 satisfy themselves

00:53:29.520 momentarily with

00:53:30.560 pornography and

00:53:31.340 then that turns

00:53:32.280 into that host of

00:53:33.140 problems you already

00:53:33.800 described is now

00:53:35.100 they're training

00:53:35.820 themselves maybe

00:53:36.800 right from puberty

00:53:37.760 to be impotent 0.95

00:53:40.120 cuckold voyeurs 0.66

00:53:42.660 essentially so that's

00:53:44.840 not good training

00:53:45.820 then they're training

00:53:47.080 themselves to view

00:53:49.000 women as targets 0.99

00:53:50.780 of short-term

00:53:51.580 gratification so

00:53:52.860 that's like

00:53:53.280 training in

00:53:53.840 psychopathy and

00:53:55.200 then they're also

00:53:56.060 interfering with

00:53:56.980 their ability to

00:53:58.060 establish a

00:53:59.320 relationship and

00:54:00.100 also to perform

00:54:01.060 sexually in a real 0.63

00:54:02.300 environment so all

00:54:03.920 that seems like you

00:54:05.400 know like a five

00:54:06.200 dimensional catastrophe

00:54:07.200 and that's going to

00:54:08.420 get a lot worse in

00:54:09.360 the next year by the

00:54:11.060 way because we

00:54:12.800 haven't seen anything

00:54:13.700 on the pornography

00:54:14.440 front compared to

00:54:16.080 what's going to be

00:54:16.720 coming down with the

00:54:17.700 advent of AI because

00:54:19.400 now what's going to

00:54:20.420 happen real soon is

00:54:22.020 that this is already

00:54:23.220 underway so imagine

00:54:26.020 a sign-up service

00:54:27.040 where you can talk to

00:54:28.780 a very attractive

00:54:29.580 young woman so and

00:54:32.200 she's a AI right so

00:54:34.460 she can be as

00:54:35.680 attractive as you

00:54:36.420 want her to be and

00:54:37.420 tuned exactly to your

00:54:38.560 preferences okay so

00:54:40.460 now there's already a

00:54:42.840 service offering this

00:54:43.840 by the way so now

00:54:45.360 you have a friend and

00:54:46.380 that friend can keep

00:54:47.260 track of your

00:54:48.100 conversations and

00:54:49.340 especially if you're

00:54:50.480 lonesome and isolated

00:54:51.280 that might be the best

00:54:52.400 friend you've ever had

00:54:53.460 and certainly the most

00:54:54.920 attractive person you've

00:54:55.960 ever talked to now

00:54:57.020 it's not real but you

00:54:58.920 know men are pretty

00:55:00.020 damn visual so it's

00:55:02.260 got a long ways towards 0.99

00:55:03.420 real and then you know

00:55:04.480 for your subscription

00:55:06.140 fee you can talk to

00:55:09.520 the woman nude and

00:55:10.680 then the whole avenue of 0.70

00:55:12.600 sexual display is open

00:55:13.880 to you and so God only

00:55:15.860 knows what that's going 0.95

00:55:17.460 to do yes sex robots

00:55:19.320 are the next step where

00:55:21.400 you have a yeah yeah

00:55:22.820 well and then the

00:55:23.460 integration of those two

00:55:24.620 things yeah yeah that'll

00:55:26.560 be and that that'll be

00:55:27.720 great that'll really get

00:55:29.400 us going you end up in

00:55:30.120 a situation where men

00:55:31.360 young men can feel as 0.93

00:55:32.980 if they are winning at

00:55:36.220 life right with their 0.94

00:55:38.400 sex robot who's giving 0.96

00:55:39.540 them all the cues that

00:55:40.540 suggest fitness but in

00:55:42.060 fact you know they don't

00:55:43.440 need to wash they don't

00:55:44.280 need to have a job they

00:55:45.280 don't need to do anything

00:55:46.000 productive with their

00:55:46.720 lives because the sex 0.66

00:55:48.280 robot doesn't care only 0.97

00:55:50.060 fans I think is a step

00:55:51.120 along this path because

00:55:52.660 what only fans offer

00:55:53.560 definitely it's not just

00:55:55.320 pornography it offers a

00:55:56.920 parasocial relationship it

00:55:58.560 gives the impression to

00:56:00.060 customers that this woman

00:56:02.180 cares about them remembers

00:56:03.780 his birthday remembers his

00:56:05.600 children's names all of

00:56:06.800 this stuff and but it's

00:56:09.100 all obviously a mirage and

00:56:10.160 it's one that's purchased

00:56:11.320 and it it's completely the

00:56:15.360 role that's the structure

00:56:16.240 for everyone

00:56:16.740 right well and that that's

00:56:19.820 narcissistic exploitation on

00:56:21.700 the part of the females with 0.97

00:56:23.700 anti-social personality traits

00:56:25.580 and often what would you say

00:56:27.740 aided and embedded by

00:56:29.000 quasi-psychopathic pimps

00:56:30.780 electronic pimps and you know

00:56:32.480 those only fan women that you 1.00

00:56:34.280 made a very good point there 0.80

00:56:35.380 those are actually androids

00:56:37.340 right because they're not

00:56:38.960 women now you might say 0.99

00:56:40.680 what the hell are you 0.88

00:56:41.380 talking about dr peterson 0.97

00:56:42.680 obviously they're women 1.00

00:56:43.600 it's like no they're not

00:56:44.700 they're machine women 1.00

00:56:45.940 hybrids and the machine is

00:56:48.120 the technology that can

00:56:49.520 broadcast their image to

00:56:50.620 millions of people so

00:56:51.940 you're not a woman anymore 1.00

00:56:53.480 if you're in a million men's

00:56:55.220 bedrooms at the same time

00:56:56.880 you're a woman machine 1.00

00:56:59.200 hybrid now it's virtualized

00:57:01.020 obviously because it's

00:57:02.820 two-dimensional and it's

00:57:04.280 not embodied in the form

00:57:05.520 of a robot but the idea

00:57:07.240 that that's not an android 1.00

00:57:08.540 means that you're an idiot 1.00

00:57:10.040 that's what it means 1.00

00:57:10.900 it's obviously an android

00:57:12.260 and there there is

00:57:13.940 definitely that form of

00:57:15.660 parasitism on the female 0.87

00:57:17.260 part you know these women 1.00

00:57:18.500 have embodied capital

00:57:19.800 that's a good way of

00:57:20.580 thinking about it so

00:57:21.640 they're young they don't

00:57:22.820 have economic resources

00:57:23.900 but they're young and

00:57:24.720 beautiful and that's an

00:57:26.160 economic resource make no

00:57:28.080 mistake about it in fact

00:57:29.600 it's the most well it's the

00:57:32.600 highest possible form of

00:57:34.360 wealth this is another

00:57:36.040 thing that the marxist 0.99

00:57:37.280 types get real wrong with

00:57:38.460 their economic analysis

00:57:39.440 because if you took let's

00:57:42.000 say a hyper rich 80 year

00:57:43.400 old woman and you said

00:57:45.900 well you give away 99% of

00:57:48.700 your fortune and now you

00:57:49.980 inhabit the body that you

00:57:51.700 had when you were 20 and

00:57:53.940 then we could add to that

00:57:54.920 the possibility of being

00:57:56.060 stellarly beautiful the

00:57:57.320 probability that that woman 0.80

00:57:58.620 would trade everything she

00:57:59.760 has for that opportunity

00:58:02.000 you know assuming she

00:58:03.420 hasn't become disenamored

00:58:05.820 of life is extraordinarily

00:58:07.520 high and so that also

00:58:09.080 means that on the female 0.99

00:58:10.140 side and this is happening

00:58:11.320 continually female

00:58:13.580 exploitation can take place

00:58:17.380 with regard to men just like

00:58:20.000 male exploitation takes place

00:58:21.740 with regard to women and

00:58:23.840 those women are not doing 1.00

00:58:25.540 other women a favor either by 0.98

00:58:27.300 monopolizing the marketplace

00:58:28.940 let's say no I think that

00:58:32.040 one of the ways in which

00:58:33.060 women are hurt by the 1.00

00:58:35.440 pretense that is widely

00:58:38.960 practiced that men and

00:58:41.120 women are psychologically the 1.00

00:58:42.220 same and that male and

00:58:43.160 female sexuality is the same 1.00

00:58:44.580 is that it's very easy for a

00:58:47.500 young beautiful woman to

00:58:49.100 mistake male sexual desire for

00:58:52.320 high regard and to and to I

00:58:56.560 think that really there are two

00:58:57.740 parallel tracks when it comes to

00:59:01.120 male sexual desire for women 0.93

00:59:02.700 there is the short term and the

00:59:04.140 long term and they are not at

00:59:05.940 all the same and that being

00:59:08.700 very highly desired on the

00:59:10.040 short term track does not

00:59:11.240 necessarily translate into being

00:59:13.060 very high highly desired on the

00:59:14.340 long term track in fact

00:59:15.280 sometimes quite the opposite and

00:59:17.120 I think that the main error that

00:59:18.940 women are making with thinking 1.00

00:59:20.840 that OnlyFans is a is a quick

00:59:22.400 buck not only is the fact that

00:59:24.480 OnlyFans is enormously unequal and

00:59:26.640 actually there are very few

00:59:27.440 people on it who are making any

00:59:28.540 real money and generally the

00:59:29.520 ones who are making lots of

00:59:30.420 money of course were already

00:59:31.780 famous before they joined the

00:59:32.840 platform and so on it's also

00:59:34.440 the fact that there is the

00:59:35.820 internet is forever and these

00:59:37.440 images are out there and it

00:59:38.700 damages your long term mating

00:59:40.300 prospects to have been on

00:59:42.520 OnlyFans and actually I mean it

00:59:44.840 is clearly the case that female 1.00

00:59:46.100 beauty is incredibly valuable

00:59:47.420 resource but I think maybe the

00:59:49.800 way in which it needs to be

00:59:50.980 understood distinctly from

00:59:52.220 economic power is it is to some

00:59:54.020 extent vicarious you can acquire

00:59:57.140 enormous power as a beautiful

00:59:58.520 woman through access to 0.99

01:00:01.540 typically male political and

01:00:04.620 economic power but it doesn't

01:00:06.600 last forever if you're able to

01:00:08.120 secure a very high status

01:00:09.600 husband for instance and he

01:00:10.980 commits to you for life you've

01:00:12.680 translated your beauty into real

01:00:14.740 and lasting power if you're not

01:00:16.160 able to do that then you will

01:00:18.160 very quickly you know age 35 age

01:00:20.160 40 age out of having any access 0.95

01:00:22.460 to that kind of power and then

01:00:23.680 you will potentially be paying

01:00:24.780 the cost later down the line so

01:00:26.540 there are some women who've 1.00

01:00:28.240 become very wealthy on OnlyFans

01:00:29.420 but in general I would say that

01:00:31.580 it's very very poor strategy and

01:00:33.380 you know as ever it is presented

01:00:35.340 as a kind of short-term boon

01:00:37.160 yeah well it suffers from the same

01:00:40.320 Pareto distribution problem as any

01:00:42.200 productive enterprise creative

01:00:43.600 enterprise which is a small

01:00:44.980 minority of people will rake in

01:00:46.480 all the money like a tiny tiny

01:00:48.300 proportion it'll be a tenth of one

01:00:50.400 percent they'll make a

01:00:52.180 spectacular amount of money and

01:00:53.980 everyone else will strive away in

01:00:55.840 the dirt scrabbling way for

01:00:57.780 virtually nothing and then as you

01:00:59.700 said even those women who have

01:01:01.260 managed to make that successful

01:01:02.980 are dooming themselves in all

01:01:05.880 likelihood to remaining only

01:01:07.920 attractive to psychopathic and

01:01:09.700 exploitive males because the rest of

01:01:12.220 them won't be particularly happy

01:01:14.020 with that background so yeah it's not

01:01:16.220 a good iterating medium to long-term

01:01:18.580 strategy let's talk about consent a

01:01:21.160 little bit because that's a tricky

01:01:22.740 issue and it ties back to this notion

01:01:25.440 we were discussing earlier about the

01:01:27.100 proclivity of the radical left to

01:01:28.720 ensure to insist upon something

01:01:31.300 approximating a contract which I do

01:01:33.400 think is very comical that you know

01:01:35.420 that's the same as well maybe consent

01:01:38.720 means getting married and and actually I

01:01:42.060 think you can make a case for that so

01:01:43.680 you know when you see that happening

01:01:45.260 on campuses very frequently and we

01:01:48.160 should delve into the details of this

01:01:49.740 is that a young man and a young woman

01:01:52.460 will sleep together it's usually at a

01:01:54.660 party and it's usually a drunken party

01:01:57.280 and so one of the things that people

01:01:59.980 don't know maybe because they don't

01:02:01.880 want to is that almost all criminal

01:02:04.940 behavior that involves coercion is

01:02:08.320 facilitated by alcohol so half of people

01:02:12.360 who are murdered are drunk half of the

01:02:14.920 murderers are drunk there would be 0.94

01:02:16.680 almost no domestic abuse violent abuse

01:02:19.840 without alcohol it's an unbelievable

01:02:22.100 facilitator why this is why the temperance

01:02:25.180 movement was in many ways a feminist 1.00

01:02:27.120 movement I would argue that that's not

01:02:29.440 how it was normally expressed but the

01:02:30.840 temperance movement was very much about

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01:03:51.700 right right right well and on campuses date 0.91

01:03:58.680 rape etc an unwanted social sexual advance

01:04:03.460 and alcohol go hand in hand but of course

01:04:07.000 you have the libertine culture on campuses

01:04:09.140 sexually and also behaviorally and so many

01:04:11.680 campuses are simultaneously hotbeds of you

01:04:15.400 know sexual investigation and trouble and

01:04:18.760 drunken Dionysian partying and you know I

01:04:22.680 think there's a time and a place for that

01:04:24.340 and that's probably when you're young and

01:04:26.180 you know hopefully you manage to wend your

01:04:28.260 way through it but as a basis for a stable

01:04:30.800 society it falls short but here's here's one

01:04:35.120 of the problems it really brings up so now

01:04:37.100 you have women and hypothetically they have 0.99

01:04:39.340 control of the reproductive function and they

01:04:43.060 can go out and drink and then they can find

01:04:46.340 themselves waking up in the morning and not

01:04:50.280 even remembering because alcohol really

01:04:53.200 interferes with memory consolidation not

01:04:55.340 even at relatively minor doses not even

01:04:57.780 really remembering how the hell they got

01:04:59.640 there now especially if they're women who've

01:05:03.480 been mistreated in the past and that's not

01:05:05.680 uncommon there is a real question that

01:05:08.900 emerges about whether or not they consented

01:05:11.740 and it's very complicated because it's

01:05:13.860 certainly one of the strategies that 0.98

01:05:15.560 desperate young men use to entice foolish 1.00

01:05:20.400 young women into their beds is to get them 1.00

01:05:22.580 drunk and anybody who doesn't know that is 1.00

01:05:25.280 a blind fool and so now and so if you have a 0.99

01:05:29.820 party and you're a college student and you're 1.00

01:05:32.440 male and you invite some women over including 0.99

01:05:34.800 the ones that you might be attracted to and you

01:05:37.400 serve copious amounts of alcohol and you know

01:05:40.480 perfectly well that if you get a young woman 1.00

01:05:42.300 drunk you're more likely to get her into bed

01:05:44.280 are you manipulating her or is she an

01:05:47.840 autonomous entity fully capable of making her

01:05:51.480 own sovereign decisions who knows the ground

01:05:53.960 rules of the game when she enters the door and

01:05:56.760 is there a response for responsible for her own

01:05:59.200 actions and the answer is a little a column a and

01:06:02.220 a little a column b and that makes the whole

01:06:04.940 issue of consent extraordinarily complex you know

01:06:08.060 if you consent well drunk and you regret it the

01:06:11.860 next day is that true consent and of course that's

01:06:15.500 being fought out in legal minefields all across

01:06:18.840 north america and i think the reason it's being

01:06:20.780 thought out fought out is because it's actually a

01:06:23.700 complicated question what does it mean to give

01:06:27.960 consent how old do you have to be like if you have

01:06:31.900 three drinks can you give informed consent

01:06:34.040 well maybe you couldn't for a medical procedure could

01:06:39.020 you if you had one drink well i studied the effects of

01:06:43.880 alcohol for years on cognitive ability and function and

01:06:48.860 it's a highly disinhibiting drug which is why people like

01:06:52.300 it because it it removes the regulatory constraint from

01:06:57.540 hedonic behavior including aggressive behavior

01:07:00.560 slots of fun and it it uh amplifies sociability for many

01:07:06.320 people it's got an opiate effect that's pain

01:07:09.040 killing and a stimulant effect that's like cocaine

01:07:11.540 and it's an anxiety reducer so it's a killer party drug

01:07:16.000 and so you add some alcohol into the mix and you think well

01:07:20.140 did the young woman give consent and the answer to that is

01:07:25.580 well what the hell is consent and then one answer is well you have to

01:07:30.180 have a legal document and then you think well you might as well just get

01:07:33.000 married then because that's the whole point and

01:07:34.920 but here here's an open question like i really wonder

01:07:38.060 i really think this might be true marriage is consent

01:07:43.780 that's what marriage means marriage is full 0.79

01:07:48.200 informed consent and it's the only form of full informed consent

01:07:52.300 all things being equal given how dangerous sex is in the most

01:07:57.160 fundamental sense given how socially destabilizing it is given how difficult

01:08:02.160 it is to integrate into a full personality across time

01:08:05.780 given how much is at risk for children and women in particular

01:08:09.520 that the the issue of consent is so important that it basically devolves into

01:08:15.080 something approximating marriage by necessity

01:08:17.380 the i agree the only proviso i would place on that is that one of the i would say

01:08:24.300 one of the really profound successes of 20th century feminism was in 0.95

01:08:28.180 reconceptualizing rape which in most traditional legal systems is understood

01:08:33.060 as a crime against a woman's male kin

01:08:36.300 reconceptualizing it as a crime against the woman herself

01:08:40.680 which therefore makes it marital rape 0.98

01:08:43.160 explicable in a way that it isn't in the old model it clearly is the case that it is

01:08:49.480 possible to to be to be raped within marriage i think it's also absolutely the case that any

01:08:55.520 we are forced to draw bright lines when it comes to the law we're forced to say that you know the

01:09:01.500 age of consent is 16 that x the amount of alcohol in the bloodstream constitutes you know above the

01:09:08.080 legal driving limit etc etc we're forced to draw bright lines we have to also recognize and we all

01:09:12.520 know intuitively that those bright lines are fallible and that there is a huge amount of gray space

01:09:17.800 between what is legally permissible and what is good

01:09:21.280 and i think that the problem with basing any kind of system of sexual ethics on consent as a bare

01:09:28.940 minimum is it becomes impossible to talk about that gray space and what you often find actually is

01:09:33.580 women particularly during me too women who would talk about distressing sexual experiences which

01:09:41.760 actually normally didn't meet the legal threshold for being criminal but which they nevertheless

01:09:46.980 experienced as upsetting as as disturbing as whatever often involving alcohol as you say

01:09:52.980 briefly on that point one of the things a lot of people don't know is that there's a cognitive bias

01:09:57.940 in men where they tend to overestimate a woman's sexual interest in them and that it and it's not the

01:10:04.140 other way around and that bias is is exaggerated by alcohol so you have men who are very drunk and who

01:10:09.880 really do read signs of sexual interest from women who are in fact not sexually interested in them

01:10:14.680 and who are incapacitated by alcohol and it all ends up being and are off you know we're talking about

01:10:18.820 teenagers who have raised on porn and have you know it's a complete disaster like the whole cauldron

01:10:23.020 mix is basically perfectly designed to produce these scenarios and often you have women who are coming 0.97

01:10:28.400 out of these scenarios feeling really distressed but they they don't have the moral language to talk

01:10:33.600 about it because they don't want to talk about they don't want to use terms like chivalrous they don't want to

01:10:37.380 talk about gentlemen they don't want to talk even about morality and good and bad what they have in

01:10:42.260 their vocabulary toolkit is consent and so you will say that the xyz encounter wasn't consensual whereas

01:10:48.680 actually that's not the best way of describing what went wrong and trying to just further embed the

01:10:54.400 consent model which often just what consent workshops are really is just they're sort of

01:10:58.900 they're attempts at ideological interventions the idea is that we you know we sit kids down and we tell

01:11:04.340 them in words of one syllable don't rape each other but of course we know that's not how social 0.61

01:11:08.640 interactions work that's not actually a kind of intervention that's really going to make a difference

01:11:11.860 because the would-be rapists aren't listening for one thing and also because that's you know the

01:11:16.420 complexity of sexual relationships are just so so too difficult to sum up in that kind of simple message

01:11:22.440 but that's all we've got and so and so this emphasis is just on reiterating and reiterating

01:11:29.220 if you start talking about unwanted sexual advance as a failure of something like chivalry you sound

01:11:36.160 like a transplant from the 13th century but it's it's definitely the case it's also definitely the

01:11:42.320 case that unsophisticated males are not very good at reading what would you say anything but explicit

01:11:50.980 signals of no right sophisticated people can tell by a polite glance let's say whether or not

01:12:00.720 interest is being manifested and then they play a very slow incremental game which is romance by the

01:12:08.360 way checking each other out for consent at every stage and you cannot replace that with a rule

01:12:15.440 governed system the attempt to do that is first of all going to be intrusive and tyrannical and awkward

01:12:20.600 and second it's putting the cart before the horse the the unsophisticated people aren't going to be 0.93

01:12:26.780 able to use that system anyways and then you have like three people you have a crowd in the bedroom 1.00

01:12:33.020 you have the young man and you have the young woman and you have the whole idiot phalanx of DEI 0.99

01:12:38.920 bureaucrats they're trying to mediate the social relationship and that's just not going to work at all 0.99

01:12:44.240 and here's another thing I've been thinking about I talked to my wife who I know you talk to on her

01:12:49.160 podcast about this quite a bit so here's an interesting idea so males compete for status and 0.94

01:12:57.720 the essential dimension of competition that differentiates them from women I would say is 1.00

01:13:05.300 something like productive economic generosity it's something like that now it's not like women aren't 1.00

01:13:11.280 productive and it's not like they're not generous but the ground rules are different women are looking 1.00

01:13:15.700 to equalize the economic disparity that's attendant upon differential uh uh cost for reproduction

01:13:23.140 and so men are evaluated on the basis of their potential for economic reciprocity and generosity

01:13:32.020 and that gives them status males and so women peel from the top of that hierarchy basically they 1.00

01:13:39.340 let males competed out on the economic front and then women select from the top down and the higher 1.00

01:13:46.860 the status a woman has the higher the man the status of the mate that she can obtain now that brings up a 1.00

01:13:55.360 question which is what gives women status and that's a really hard question because first of all we know

01:14:02.020 that economic viability is not one of those things so male economic viability and sexual success are

01:14:08.960 correlated insanely highly it's like 0.6 0.7 crazily high one of the most powerful single variable

01:14:17.340 relationships that you can find in all of the social sciences far higher than the relationship between

01:14:22.320 intelligence and life success for example but the correlation between female economic viability and 1.00

01:14:28.800 sexual attractiveness is lower than zero so it's actually slightly negative so it's a massive sexual

01:14:36.000 dimorphism so then you ask well what gives female status and well one of the answers is obviously 0.70

01:14:41.940 associated with beauty and reproductive capacity and and sexual attractiveness those things all tangled

01:14:50.100 together extraordinarily tightly but that's not the only thing i don't think and so this i think is

01:14:55.560 really worth thinking about so imagine that you have an attractive girl and a variety of relatively high

01:15:03.260 status men are chasing her now you might ask well how do they evaluate her status and i think they

01:15:11.740 evaluate her status by her ability to say no so imagine you know a high status person offers himself or

01:15:23.020 herself to you and of you if you're of lower status you're going to say yes right away but one marker

01:15:30.360 of higher status is well no i don't need what you're selling yeah but what i'm selling is great yeah but i have

01:15:37.120 so many offers that i'm not inclined to take your offer because i have options and it's no on the part

01:15:44.720 of women that signal i really believe this is the case it's voluntary no on the part of women that 0.91

01:15:51.640 signals their status and so i don't think young women know this at all because they want to know how

01:15:57.200 to compete with men let's say in the power game and uh that's a tough question because women are smaller 1.00

01:16:03.280 and they're not as physically powerful and economic uh prowess isn't as attractive to them and it doesn't

01:16:10.340 make them more viable on the marketing on the mating market so the whole game that women are playing is 1.00

01:16:15.840 way different than the game men is playing so you might say well how do women equalize the battle and 1.00

01:16:20.280 i think a huge part of that is by reserving to themselves the right to say no and you see this

01:16:26.820 people are stumbling towards this realization even on the radical leftist front because they keep saying

01:16:33.280 no means no it's like well yeah i wish it was that clear but at a drunken frat party what

01:16:39.820 constitutes no is not self-evident but a clear no on the part of a woman and i also think that there's

01:16:47.360 every reason to think and plenty of evidence that that's also one of the things that makes

01:16:51.620 men desirable in the face that makes women desirable in the eyes of men especially if the men 0.73

01:16:58.860 might be enticed into pursuing a long-term mating strategy you know they'll push on women and see 0.79

01:17:05.660 well will you say yes right away and if the answer is yes especially true for high status men if the

01:17:11.980 answer is immediately yes then the guy assumes well you're not your status really isn't that high

01:17:17.660 you can't say no to me but if the woman says no even to you the guy thinks oh well you know

01:17:24.860 look at that oh you can imagine there's some narcissism that even though i have everything to offer

01:17:32.040 that i have to offer she's just not falling over you know maybe there's something there that requires

01:17:38.980 further exploration you know and you even see this in female pornography it's so interesting because 1.00

01:17:45.000 the classic female pornographic story is uh you know there's this extremely attractive highly productive 1.00

01:17:51.960 man who's got a real capacity for aggression he's a pirate or a surgeon or a werewolf or a vampire

01:17:58.660 or a billionaire those are the fundamental female pornographic tropes and he has women at his 0.99

01:18:05.880 disposal but this woman is shielded off from him and they dance around each other for a long time

01:18:13.940 which essentially means that she's saying no and he's finally enticed into a relationship with her

01:18:19.220 where he sacrifices all you know his access to all other women and then they have hot steamy sex and so 0.56

01:18:25.300 you know most of female pornography is extended foreplay and that's this romantic dance of no 1.00

01:18:32.180 followed by you know a very spectacular consummation and that certainly mirrors the

01:18:38.260 well it mirrors the optimal female reproductive pathway obviously because otherwise it wouldn't be 0.98

01:18:46.120 the hottest pornographic fantasy but it's based in i really think it's based in reality and so i don't

01:18:51.380 know how it is that you communicate to young women that especially if they are of high female status

01:18:57.140 but even if they're not that the most potent tool they have in their armament with regard to status with

01:19:05.120 regard to being taken seriously is their ability and willingness to say no a question um that i've had a lot

01:19:15.720 since the book was published is um is there a sexual counter-revolution underway 0.76

01:19:21.480 my answer to that is a guarded yes a bit i think what's happened is that we've ended up in this

01:19:30.860 very historically unusual situation where female virginity is not prized basically every society

01:19:37.660 hugely praises female virginity and female sexual um restraint the ability to say no for obvious reasons 0.50

01:19:44.720 because um illegitimate child is a disaster not only for the woman but for her family for the 0.77

01:19:49.740 community there's a you know there's a need to be um to be gatekeeping young women the pill does away 0.98

01:19:55.780 the pill the pill does away with that and the pill also occurs at exactly the same time as this huge

01:20:00.660 political shift and technological shift and and we we now have attempted to um reconceptualize women 0.99

01:20:08.620 as being sort of like slightly smaller men who basically have the same sexual drives and preferences and

01:20:14.340 we know that this isn't true but we've given a good go and many of the young women who um who've read

01:20:20.940 my book have been raised with this expectation and have attempted to have sex like men and have 0.58

01:20:25.940 invariably found that it actually makes them miserable but we also get trapped in this painful

01:20:31.360 strategic impasse where when the expectation is that you will have sex very early on in a relationship

01:20:36.640 and that withholding sex is not socially permissible it's a it's a it's a weird sign it's a sign that

01:20:44.620 you're unusual that you're not playing by the normal rules it puts you at a disadvantage you know if you

01:20:50.040 are a young woman who doesn't want to be putting out on a first second third date you're already

01:20:53.600 disadvantaged in the dating market released up until recently but one of the things that i've noticed

01:20:58.080 going and giving um talks all over the country is i i've often had women come up to me afterwards and 1.00

01:21:05.420 say that they they they like my message they agree that they are that they have are implementing this

01:21:10.500 in their own lives that they are not having casual sex that they are not giving into this social

01:21:14.620 pressure and one of the things i've noticed about these women is they tend to be very beautiful 1.00

01:21:17.900 and i think that that's not coincidental i think it's because they are the women who have the

01:21:23.740 greatest power within this system and are therefore the ones who can most easily opt out

01:21:30.280 of the current set of expectations and can say no without suffering a penalty for it so i think those

01:21:37.800 women many of them are already do are already doing that because they've gotten onto the fact that 1.00

01:21:41.420 this is actually a miserable system which causes them harm and my hope is that that will accelerate

01:21:50.180 as other women imitate them well you know if if it's the beautiful high status women who begin that 1.00

01:21:57.640 trend the rest of the women will follow because trends always start in the aristocracy and trend 1.00

01:22:02.960 downwards now okay so here's another thought um and this has to do with the built-in antagonism

01:22:10.480 let's say and hopefully eventual cooperation of the sexes on the sexual front so women are checking 1.00

01:22:18.360 out men all the time and women have all sorts of tricks for doing that they might be provocative 0.95

01:22:24.260 for example because they want to test a man to see if he can control his temper and no one likes to

01:22:29.300 talk about that but any smart woman is going to do that because she wants to find out if her partner 1.00

01:22:34.220 she wants someone who has the capacity for aggression but she wants someone who can control it because 1.00

01:22:39.940 a man will be provoked by children and if he can't control his temper then he's going to be aggressive

01:22:45.960 and so she has to check that out and you don't check that out by having a formal conversation

01:22:50.500 you check that out the same way children check out their parents which is by harassing them and seeing

01:22:55.980 what happens and so and then men check women out so maybe one of the things a man wants to do if he's

01:23:04.000 going to commit to a long-term relationship is he wants to find out well does this woman have what it 0.79

01:23:09.100 takes to actually commit to a long-term relationship and what that means in part is that he has to know

01:23:16.300 that she's capable of controlling her impulsive desires right because otherwise she's going to stray 0.90

01:23:22.420 and that's actually a worse problem for men than it is for women and and we should return to this idea

01:23:29.660 that rape is a violation of male property rights in a moment because i want to explore that a bit

01:23:34.760 so you can tell a woman has control over her impulses if she can say no as a homeowner some

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01:24:54.040 one discount per household right i mean it's a way of testing so imagine that you're you're a young guy

01:25:02.320 with plenty to offer and you're a hot young woman and you meet and you're pretty attracted to each other

01:25:07.300 now both of you are going to fall under the sway of short-term temptation obviously now the question is

01:25:16.480 are both of you are either of you capable of being mature in your regard for your iterated future self

01:25:25.860 and the potential of a long-term relationship and the way the man checks that out is by seeing if the

01:25:31.180 girl will say no and maybe he checks that even harder because he does everything he can to seduce her

01:25:37.540 and she still says no you know and it works and he knows she's interested and she still says no well

01:25:43.940 then he can conclude that she's capable of keeping her pants on let's say and that's actually something 0.99

01:25:51.600 that you need to conclude if you're going to commit to a long-term partnership obviously on the male front

01:25:57.840 because you want to be assured of paternity and so you know these are very intense games that men and

01:26:04.240 women play with each other and they're no holds barred games because everything's at stake but again 1.00

01:26:09.920 it devolves down to this issue of being able to say no even under intense temptation and provocation

01:26:17.520 so i don't know how it is that we start teaching young women well we can just stop start by not lying

01:26:24.600 to them about absolutely everything which is what we do now but i don't know how it is that young women 0.98

01:26:30.560 can be taught that the most potent weapon they have is their ability to say no you know and that

01:26:38.360 that's actually a a weapon of formidable force and that it does nothing but confer status upon them

01:26:46.160 you know and the fact that you said already that what you see is that it's the obviously high status

01:26:52.200 high desirable women who are figuring this out first is an indication of that because obviously they're 1.00

01:26:58.000 the ones that that are going to be able to wield that power in the most effective possible manner

01:27:04.320 that doesn't mean that it's not useful for women farther down the hierarchy and you know you also 1.00

01:27:09.600 said something about women are enjoined to believe they have to be sexually accessible to make themselves

01:27:17.200 successful on the dating market but i don't believe that's true at all i think i think that's a myth i think

01:27:23.560 that you know if you have nothing else to offer at all but immediate sexual access that might be your

01:27:30.520 only game but if you have anything at all to offer and that is what you offer you're actually going to

01:27:35.400 be thrown out of the mating game really quickly because the guys will just be they'll just be turned 0.94

01:27:40.200 off and they won't call you back you'll get what do they call that ghosted like in no time flat

01:27:45.000 you know and the girls might ask well you know i gave the guy what he wanted 0.97

01:27:48.680 why didn't he call me and the answer is no you gave his impulsive libido what it wanted

01:27:55.440 and that's what you established a relationship with but you completely sacrificed any possibility at

01:28:02.020 all of being attracted of you being attractive to his more mature and potentially you know long-term

01:28:10.900 productive and sophisticated self you make yourself attractive to that by saying not on your life

01:28:16.160 joker you know i'm taking myself too seriously for that and my future and my future children and

01:28:22.480 even our future relationship and all that signaled by no and then it's it's complicated too a because

01:28:29.120 you get the prude problem and nietzsche observed century and a half ago that a lot of what passed for

01:28:38.840 morality was nothing but cowardice you know people are afraid to do something afraid to be aggressive

01:28:43.980 afraid to be sexual and they passed their fear off as morality and prudes are sort of like that is

01:28:50.680 they they don't want to have anything to do with sex but it's not because they've made a moral decision

01:28:54.500 or because they have strength of character it's just because they're afraid and because that's true

01:28:59.120 it's easy to parody women who say no or men for that matter uh as prudes you know as old-fashioned 0.69

01:29:07.420 conservative prudes who are just terrified of sex and you know sometimes that is true but 0.93

01:29:12.260 but you can be sophisticated as hell and say no and i don't think there's anything more attractive 0.98

01:29:18.780 to a man than a sophisticated woman who knows how to say no like that's that's top of the stack as far 0.89

01:29:26.120 as men are concerned and they'll do any they'll do everything to test the the what would you call the 0.83

01:29:33.800 thickness of that boundary so i don't know how you tell that to young women i don't even think men can

01:29:40.400 probably it's because the pill disrupts it all right because the pill it doesn't reduce to zero

01:29:47.640 but it does massively reduce the risks associated with sex the physical risks not the psychological

01:29:52.660 risks and so with those physical risks removed i mean i have a fascinating quote from a woman who was

01:30:00.360 who was um in her 20s in the 1960s when the pill arrived and she said that the the advent of the pill

01:30:07.240 meant that it suddenly became so much more difficult to say no to men because what you used

01:30:11.580 to be able to say was no no no we can't because of because i might get pregnant with that no longer 0.96

01:30:18.140 available and what we're dealing with here of course is the agreeability gap between men and women

01:30:22.120 women find it difficult to be assertive and if they can't call on that kind of very clear risk 1.00

01:30:28.760 as an as an appeal then what are they left with no i just don't want to have sex with you 0.97

01:30:33.180 and so and that's a really painful thing to say that it wouldn't hurt feelings there's also i think

01:30:37.480 an element of women being slightly physically frightened right well it boils down to personal

01:30:41.180 rejection then hey yeah yeah which is which is a painful right because that's the only excuse you

01:30:47.140 have left yeah absolutely well here's something else that's that's worth pondering you know you talked

01:30:53.900 about one of the advantages of the sexual revolution was the transformation of the idea that rape was a

01:30:59.920 property crime let's say into a crime against the woman herself and i would say look i have plenty

01:31:06.920 of sympathy for that perspective and i think it's fundamentally true but but i'm going to push back

01:31:12.920 because you know all this is all very complicated you know it isn't obvious to me that that offers women

01:31:20.440 enough defense you know and so the counter argument might be if untrammeled sexual access to a young 0.61

01:31:29.800 woman is a crime in order for that to be recognized as a crime properly it has to be viewed as 1.00

01:31:40.500 something that will bring the males on her side to her defense in principle now maybe not right because 0.73

01:31:48.640 you could say well maybe we could set up a society where merely quote transgressing the rights of a

01:31:55.180 woman to say no is sufficient but it's not obvious to me that that's sufficient like maybe sufficient

01:32:00.520 means not only do you violate the integrity of the woman in a fundamental sense but you enrage all of her male 0.50

01:32:09.140 protectors and then that's enough of a barrier because god only knows how much barrier we need and

01:32:17.920 obviously well you just laid out a bunch of problems especially now that the pill introduces

01:32:22.960 and we should stress that the problem that women have in saying no once they're on the pill is that 0.97

01:32:27.620 it's instantly personal and that means the woman has to deliver a pretty hard blow and that's especially 1.00

01:32:34.180 problematic if she's somewhat potentially interested in the guy right how do i say no without hurting his

01:32:41.300 feelings alienating him making him into an enemy looking like a prude and i mean when you're 16

01:32:46.680 how you don't know the answer to any of those questions like you're not sophisticated enough to

01:32:51.500 and i saw this in my clinical practice all the time you know i had lots of women in my clinical 1.00

01:32:57.160 practice who were abused serially and you know they were generally stunningly unsophisticated in their

01:33:04.840 conduct and i'm not trying to blame the victim i'm just saying that sophisticated women and those are 1.00

01:33:11.240 often those who've been they've had a lot of good relationships with men brothers and fathers in

01:33:17.100 particular sophisticated women signal to men who are getting a little pushy in no uncertain terms 0.55

01:33:24.620 very early in the pushing game that no is the answer right and they do that if you do that really early on in

01:33:33.200 the investigation you don't have to use much force but unsophisticated women they can't do that at all 1.00

01:33:40.420 they don't know how and then what happens is they they run into an unsophisticated guy he's too dumb to 0.92

01:33:46.080 pick up any clues and then by the time she really wants to say no she's already on the bed i'll give 0.95

01:33:51.560 you an example of this you know i had one client who uh was coerced in her account into a sexual 0.91

01:34:00.080 encounter by a door-to-door salesman you know typical pornographic fantasy setup so this young guy is

01:34:07.780 going around door-to-door selling whatever he's selling so he's not one of the world's high status

01:34:12.380 males let's put it that way and uh you know and i suppose he's probably got all sorts of fantasies

01:34:19.380 running through his pornography pornography addled brain and so he comes to the door and she's in the

01:34:25.920 house and she's a reasonably attractive young woman and he's friendly and well the first thing she does is 0.99

01:34:31.580 invite him in now that's stupid she's alone she doesn't know who he is at all and she invites him in 0.95

01:34:38.920 well he thinks oh my god what is she you know maybe she really likes me and you already said that men 1.00

01:34:46.160 and this is especially true if they're narcissistic and immature radically overestimate the degree to

01:34:51.200 which a woman's attention is signaling sexual availability for obvious reasons and so he's thinking

01:34:56.900 oh my god this is my big chance and so then he starts to press her and she has no tools at her

01:35:02.940 disposal at all because she has no idea how to signal no and let's say she's agreeable and neurotic 1.00

01:35:08.720 with a bit of a history of abuse and the next thing she knows she finds herself on the couch you know 0.62

01:35:14.420 three quarters undressed and then the question is well is that rape and well then that's the question

01:35:21.360 that's when the police come in and the lawyers come in and you know you spend the next three years

01:35:25.280 trying to figure out whether or not that's rape but it's a so so my point with all that is that

01:35:32.380 it's an open question how much protection women need from the males around them and then it's an open

01:35:38.680 question exactly how to construe the crime of irresponsible access to a young woman woman from

01:35:47.220 a psychological and legal and social perspective like maybe it's not just maybe it's not just a crime

01:35:52.640 against the woman you know maybe it's a crime against the broader community and i don't like

01:35:57.520 i it's not like i'm saying i know how to adjudicate that because i don't but it's hard to get all the

01:36:05.020 necessary barriers in place and if that wasn't true we wouldn't have this huge debate about consent on

01:36:10.600 campuses um i have a slightly um unusual view of the relationship between christianity and feminism

01:36:19.120 in general um feminists modern feminists set themselves up in opposition to christianity 1.00

01:36:25.940 particularly on the issue of abortion the handmaid's tale kind of neo-puritan outfit being

01:36:31.620 the the the uniform now of of american feminists and so on i am of the view though that actually

01:36:38.640 feminism is an outgrowth of christianity and that the fundamental idea in christianity which is so 1.00

01:36:45.220 different from other religious traditions that weakness is strength that the first shall be last

01:36:50.640 that there is something valuable about being small and vulnerable rather than something

01:36:55.680 um despicable about it i think that feminism completely relies on that idea which is by no 1.00

01:37:02.200 means shared by all cultures and certainly wasn't shared by the ancient roman culture that that

01:37:06.380 from which christianity sprung and so if you're operating in say an ancient roman culture which which

01:37:12.640 doesn't see women as inherently vulnerable which actually sees female um vulnerability as uh

01:37:20.780 something to be despised potentially and which sees prostituted slave women as entirely available for male 0.98

01:37:26.820 sexual consumption that cannot really conceptualize the idea of a slave woman having being able to be 0.97

01:37:32.480 sexually violated you know it's just not kind of within the moral system it's not it's not understandable

01:37:36.620 into that comes the christian idea of sexual equality at least at the spiritual level

01:37:43.120 and the idea therefore that actually even a woman who doesn't have male kin available to defend her 0.99

01:37:50.200 against sexual violation which of course a slave doesn't she is nevertheless worthy of that protection 0.55

01:37:55.800 it kind of socializes this may be the wrong word but it it shares that duty of protection

01:38:01.700 among the community and among women i think that's basically what feminism is 1.00

01:38:07.200 and says that actually we should we should be bestowing on these friendless women 1.00

01:38:12.560 the same protection that a woman with high connected male kin has it's a very difficult system to enforce

01:38:19.420 to some extent we we try and use police criminal justice system whatever to do that job it's a hard job to do

01:38:24.420 but that is basically the modern project and i think it is born out of christian morality

01:38:27.780 right right well yeah yeah i mean i think i think that's right is that what what you're attempting

01:38:33.520 to do is to replicate the protection that a very well constituted family and community system would have

01:38:41.740 for a woman who's highly functioning you're trying to replicate that in abstraction in the entire social 1.00

01:38:48.440 structure and so that's why you have a legal structure that says well women have the right to bodily 1.00

01:38:53.000 integrity you're really trying to replace that protective structure with the force of law

01:38:58.760 yeah and i think that's an entirely laudable exercise the question that we have to wrestle with

01:39:03.740 is the question that you brought up at the end of that which is that if a woman is unfortunate enough

01:39:08.640 not to have you know let's say close male associates brothers friends fathers available to her

01:39:18.460 to what degree is it even possible for the more abstract state and the body of laws to replace

01:39:25.020 that might be a goal but it's very difficult to realize in practical terms is there anything else

01:39:32.460 that that's rattling around in the back of your mind that you think might be worth making a case for

01:39:39.300 at the moment i suppose that the um if there's one unifying idea um within the book it's probably

01:39:48.780 summed up in the um in the epilogue which i called listen to your mother i didn't crucially call it

01:39:53.940 obey your mother i called it listen to your mother i you know give your mother the opportunity to 0.87

01:39:58.040 present her view of things because i think that basically everything that's in the book actually is

01:40:03.640 incredibly obvious and ought to be incredibly obvious and it only isn't because we we live in a

01:40:09.540 very strange time which has constructed some very strange ideas about sexual politics and actually

01:40:15.220 in order to i think to navigate these waters effectively simply listening to women who've lived 0.72

01:40:21.020 it already and who have your best interests at heart if there's anyone in the world who is likely

01:40:25.680 to have your best interests at heart it is probably your mother simply listening to that woman

01:40:31.060 is really the only piece of advice that ought to be needed um because all of this is really just

01:40:39.860 about rediscovering some of the i would say eternal truths about men and women which we've

01:40:47.240 well i'm kind of i'm kind of hoping that um the women that you describe as post maidens so let's say 0.98

01:40:54.400 mothers and matriarchs could seize the reins on the social media front 1.00

01:41:00.160 and start educating young women who are both motherless and fatherless in the most fundamental

01:41:06.020 sense about some of these truths you know my wife has been tammy has been starting to do that with 0.74

01:41:10.700 her podcast inquiring into the nature of the divine feminine let's say and speaking to people like

01:41:16.820 janice fiamengo who's a real scholar of bitter and resentful feminism let's say but also trying to have 1.00

01:41:24.040 an intelligent discussion among older women who have a bit of wisdom often hard won about what a viable 1.00

01:41:32.200 long-term life path might look like like you sketched it out a bit you know this transition

01:41:37.320 in terms of narrative role let's say from maiden to mother to matriarch but that's you know that's a 0.93

01:41:45.000 very vague this is not a criticism but a three-word description is very vague and it isn't obvious at all

01:41:51.880 that our culture is good at providing an image of like what does it mean to be a mother in the highest

01:41:59.520 sense and it's really complicated you know because one of the problems a lot of my female clients had 1.00

01:42:04.860 was they were very productive economically and very brilliant and it's clearly the case that cultures get

01:42:11.060 much richer and children are much more well educated if women have access to educational resources 0.99

01:42:18.120 and if society can tap into their broad economic productivity that seems like a net good right but

01:42:25.780 then it puts women in the uncomfortable situation of well how do you devote enough attention to your 1.00

01:42:30.740 husband and your children probably in the reverse order and how do you handle your career and that

01:42:38.120 needs a lot of discussion the answer seems to be that most of the women that i've seen who've had 0.73

01:42:43.600 viable lives is that they don't make career advancement their number one goal and one of the

01:42:50.100 things you see emerging as a consequence of that is that women are pretty likely to start small 1.00

01:42:54.660 businesses but they generally do them part-time and they're generally not as hyper successful as a

01:43:00.820 minority of men but the reason they're doing that is because they're trying to balance marriage and

01:43:06.200 children with economic productivity and that's that's challenging and presents lots of opportunity

01:43:14.120 but it's not straightforward to conceptualize and women have only been able to do that in some real 0.99

01:43:20.180 sense for about 60 years right since we had reliable birth control so it's not surprising that there has

01:43:25.920 to be a discussion and then so that's on the mother front and then on the matriarch front well i think the 0.96

01:43:30.520 problem's even worse is like well what's it like to be a grandmother who's had a life you know a family

01:43:37.240 a relationship a career who's been productive at that who's now entering into the you know final third

01:43:44.780 of life let's say what does that look like if it's rich and fulfilling in terms of social role and and

01:43:53.020 personal relationship and sexual behavior and like there's an absolute dearth of conversation on those

01:44:00.360 fronts and you know you're obviously spearheading uh what the rectification of that in some real

01:44:08.580 sense but it would be lovely to see a lot more of that anyways people who are listening louise perry's

01:44:15.080 book is the case against the sexual revolution uh very you know punchy title and one of the things louise

01:44:22.140 said today that was interesting is that her books actually uh being met with a lot of positive responses

01:44:28.680 you know and so that's it's pretty interesting you know i feel the tide is turning in many ways this

01:44:35.160 might be a cardinal pivoting year 2023 because a lot of these things you say your books about the

01:44:41.160 painfully obvious in some sense it's like well you know society is pretty unstable when the painfully

01:44:46.100 obvious is now both debatable and even objected to but your book is definitely shot in the opposite

01:44:55.000 direction so thank you very much for talking to me today thank you so much and uh to all of you bet

01:45:01.720 you bet and uh hopefully we can meet when i come to the uk that would be good that'd be fantastic and

01:45:06.960 uh to all those who are listening and watching thank you very much for your time and attention

01:45:11.140 to the daily wire plus crew for facilitating this and the camera people who are here in austin texas is

01:45:17.400 where i am today thank you for helping us do this and uh and well we'll we'll continue this conversation

01:45:25.480 on the daily wire plus platform thanks again louise hello everyone i would encourage you to continue

01:45:32.920 listening to my conversation with my guest on dailywireplus.com

01:45:38.200 you

01:46:01.120 you

331. The Case Against the Sexual Revolution ｜ Louise Perry [1000599404185]

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