The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast - 332. Crony Capitalism and Female Soldiers ｜ Tulsi Gabbard

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00:00:13.200 Three issues, one answer.

00:00:30.000 Hello, everyone. I'm here today with Tulsi Gabbard, an American politician, commentator, and a lieutenant colonel in the U.S. Army Reserves.

00:00:38.480 She served as the U.S. Representative for Hawaii's 2nd Congressional District across four terms from 2013 until 2021.

00:00:49.100 She was the first female combat veteran to run for president, as well as the first Hindu member of Congress and the first Samoan American voting member.

00:00:58.880 Both during and after her terms in office, Gabbard has been a formidable voice in the political space, leaning right of center, despite her Democrat origins, with continued appearances on Fox News, while retaining more progressive views on topics such as drug legalization.

00:01:18.100 She is the host of her own program, the Tulsi Gabbard Show, where she continues to speak on relevant issues with the following axiom firmly in mind.

00:01:28.480 And country before party.

00:01:30.940 Thank you very much for agreeing to talk to me today. I'm looking forward to this conversation.

00:01:35.420 I thought maybe we'd start by talking about your experience, your history with the Democrats, if you could just walk us through that.

00:01:44.560 I mean, you've had a, well, you had a stellar rise within the confines of the party, and then a certain amount of friction.

00:01:54.280 And maybe you could just walk us through that.

00:01:56.960 You were elected very, very young.

00:01:59.560 Yes.

00:01:59.860 And so maybe we could start with that.

00:02:01.840 And could you just tell the story of being involved with the Democrats?

00:02:04.640 Well, I, so I, growing up here in Hawaii, it's a beautiful place, and from a young age, had a pretty deep appreciation for the importance of protecting this place, you know, protecting our oceans and the preservation of clean water.

00:02:26.260 We get our water here from water aquifers, and as the most remote island chain in the world, protecting those resources are essential for life.

00:02:36.720 And so my motivation and drive to run for the State House of Representatives here in Hawaii when I was 21 years old in 2002 really came from that motivation to want to be in a position where I could actually do that.

00:02:54.560 You know, I, previously I had, they wanted to build a big landfill over one of our big water aquifers here, which, you know, even for me as a teenager seemed like such an absurd idea and risk, because once that water is contaminated, then it's done.

00:03:10.780 And so I was part of, you know, I went out and got petitions and signatures and joined others to be able to try to stop that, because it was being, the wheels were being greased by a corrupt politician, essentially, who was trying to help his buddy who ran the landfill business.

00:03:28.780 And it was a great experience for me as a young person to be a part of stopping that from happening, and that's what drove me to run for office when I was 21 years old.

00:03:41.260 It was not out of any kind of design, like, oh, I'm going to have this big political career, and this will be the first stepping stone to get to somewhere else.

00:03:48.820 It was really driven by a desire to be of service and make that positive impact.

00:03:55.060 I chose to be a Democrat.

00:03:56.580 You know, my family wasn't one of those, like, legacy party affiliation things that you just did.

00:04:03.080 I really was thoughtful at that time about which box I wanted to check in filing those papers to run for office.

00:04:13.200 And, you know, for us here in Hawaii, the origins of the Democratic Party really came from a party that fought for people, kind of a more populist perspective.

00:04:25.800 We had plantation workers who were being absolutely abused and taken advantage of by the huge landowners here in the state that was essentially being run by elite, wealthy Republicans at the time.

00:04:39.360 And it was a Democratic Party that fought for those who didn't have a voice.

00:04:44.380 It was a Democratic Party that celebrated civil liberties, that celebrated freedom and individual thought, this big tent party that really was rooted in kind of those traditional liberal JFK-esque ideals.

00:04:56.660 And it was a party that had many voices that spoke out for peace.

00:05:01.340 And so all of these different things really drew me to the Democratic Party as a party that would fight for the voices of the people.

00:05:08.000 You know, in Canada, we have a socialist tradition, the New Democratic Party.

00:05:13.520 And I worked for them when I was a kid.

00:05:15.540 The man I worked for was the father of Alberta's last premier, second last premier.

00:05:24.160 And a lot of the people that were involved in the NDP were labor leaders.

00:05:29.260 You know, it was well known in Canada that the conservatives were the party of the establishment and the liberals were, well, they played both sides against the middle very effectively.

00:05:38.040 And the socialists, the NDP, British socialists, rather than the communist type, were really, they're really the voice of the working class.

00:05:45.340 They were the voice of the unions.

00:05:46.600 And the working class needs a voice, obviously.

00:05:50.880 And I think, well, the NDP did provide that to some degree in Canada.

00:05:54.440 And the Democrats historically did provide that.

00:05:57.220 That seemed to go pretty damn sideways with Clinton.

00:06:00.360 And I think it looked to me from an outsider's point of view, and I was rather appalled by this,

00:06:05.680 that the Democrats had decided to sacrifice their traditional base, the working class, you know, the committed working class,

00:06:14.820 for something approximating the politics of division and this, whatever this new narrative is of oppression and victimization.

00:06:23.400 I don't think that worked out very well either, as far as I could tell,

00:06:26.860 because my sense of the Clinton-Trump debacle was that it wasn't so much that Trump won, although he certainly did.

00:06:33.600 It was definitely the case that Clinton lost.

00:06:37.120 And I think she did that by sacrificing the interests of the working class. 0.97

00:06:40.780 Trump just vacuumed that up in no time flat, masterfully, I thought.

00:06:44.700 He seemed to have that ability to communicate with working class people, interestingly enough.

00:06:49.540 And they trusted him.

00:06:51.200 At least they trusted him in comparison to Clinton.

00:06:54.060 Yes.

00:06:54.280 Okay, so you were interested in the Democrats because of that working class voice tradition.

00:06:59.980 And you worked with the Democrats for a long time.

00:07:02.620 How long was your, how long you ran when you were 21?

00:07:06.800 That was in when, 2000?

00:07:07.880 That was in 2002.

00:07:09.800 2002, right.

00:07:11.420 So, and when did you formally sever ties with the Democrats?

00:07:15.620 In October of last year, 2022.

00:07:19.260 Right, so it was basically 20 years.

00:07:21.020 Yeah, yeah.

00:07:21.900 I did not spend all of that time in politics.

00:07:26.560 I left the state house when I volunteered to deploy with our Hawaii Army National Guard unit

00:07:34.060 because the events of 9-11, like so many Americans, you know, changed my life, changed my perspective.

00:07:42.340 And I had enlisted in the military motivated by what happened there to go after the Islamist terrorists 0.98

00:07:48.920 who attacked us on that day.

00:07:50.300 And so I was campaigning for re-election here in Hawaii in 2004, which looked to be a pretty easy re-election here.

00:08:00.240 And to continue the work I was doing, our unit, or the National Guard unit, was activated for a deployment to Iraq, I was told by my commander.

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00:09:44.240 You know, congratulations, you don't have to go.

00:09:49.420 Your name is, you know, we've already got someone filling this job in the medical unit where I was serving.

00:09:53.840 So you can stay home, and you can continue doing what you're doing.

00:09:56.920 But I knew that there was no way, there was just no way that I could stay back and work in some plush office in the state capitol and watch my brothers and sisters in uniform go and deploy to war on the other side of the world.

00:10:13.420 And so I left my re-election campaign and volunteered to deploy, got trained in a different job that they needed filling in that medical unit, and went off on an 18-month long deployment.

00:10:27.660 So what did you learn from that?

00:10:30.780 Exactly.

00:10:31.100 So you got hauled out of your life, what did you learn?

00:10:33.140 So much, so much about the cost of war, both in the loss of people who I was close to, people who I served with, as well as people who I had never met.

00:10:48.360 One, the very first thing that I did in my job while I served in Iraq, we were in a camp about 40 miles north of Baghdad, and the very first thing that I did every single day that I was there was to go through a list of names of American service soldiers who were serving all across that country who had been injured or hurt in combat the day before, the previous 24 hours.

00:11:15.360 And I had to go through that list name by name to look to see if there were any of the soldiers from our brigade, which was about close to 3,000 people who were serving in four different parts of Iraq at the time, to make sure that, okay, well, this person has been injured or they've been hurt.

00:11:31.520 Where are they?

00:11:32.440 Are they getting the care that they need?

00:11:34.480 Are they able to get what they need in country and return to duty?

00:11:39.960 Do they need to be evacuated quickly?

00:11:41.800 And basically make sure that they had what they need, whether they were staying in country.

00:11:45.700 We eventually got them back home to their families if they had to leave.

00:11:49.820 But every single day being confronted with the high human cost of war that is just so often not discussed or talked about in the headlines or even thought about by politicians, even if they might give lip service to it.

00:12:05.080 And also, therefore, coming from serving in the state house and even some of our local politicians in Hawaii, they would come out and visit the troops, get the photo op, be on the ground for maybe 24, 48 hours, and then go back and say all of these things as though they knew it was happening.

00:12:22.020 And just the hypocrisy, the hypocrisy of the politicians in Washington that voted for that war in Iraq, but really without any care for the consequences of that decision or even thinking through what are we actually doing here?

00:12:38.240 Is it serving the interests of the American people?

00:12:40.680 Yeah, well, and what were you doing there as far as you're concerned?

00:12:43.600 You know, you've had lots of time to think about it now, and you were actually there.

00:12:47.540 And so-

00:12:48.800 Well, for our unit, so our specific unit there was there to go after different terrorist elements.

00:12:56.180 This was kind of where Al-Qaeda was growing stronger, and obviously the rise of ISIS would occur a little later after we left.

00:13:04.380 But, you know, we had a number of different infantry units that were going around in different areas and trying to seek out those insurgents that were attacking Americans.

00:13:17.740 And that was the specific mission that we had.

00:13:20.860 I served in a medical unit, and so we were providing care primarily for our American troops,

00:13:27.760 but also going out and trying to help provide care for local Iraqis in the area where we were.

00:13:36.800 I visited Abu Ghraib prison.

00:13:38.800 This was after the scandal occurred, but I visited the hospital Abu Ghraib prison and was struck there about the medical care that was being provided there to the prisoners,

00:13:49.620 which was exactly the same kind of care that we were providing to injured service members who were also in the country.

00:13:58.660 But it was seeing past kind of the day-to-day tasks there in being exposed literally on the front lines to the war profiteering and the military-industrial complex,

00:14:15.380 the monopoly of KBR Halliburton making an immeasurable amount of money off of this war.

00:14:25.920 Again, I was there for all of 2005 in Iraq, and that was in the early days.

00:14:32.000 And you look at what has happened since over the ensuing decades in Iraq and Afghanistan.

00:14:38.360 And again, you know, my exposure in Hawaii as a state legislator was very limited when it comes to foreign policy.

00:14:45.600 There wasn't, you know, a lot that I knew, but being there, experiencing it, and at a basic level,

00:14:51.820 understanding government spending and taxpayer dollars and how are we using it, the accountability,

00:14:56.820 and going and talking to these, you know, they called them, they labeled them third-country nationals.

00:15:01.720 They would import in from places like Nepal and the Philippines and Sri Lanka, pay them pennies, essentially,

00:15:09.160 compared to how much they were charging the federal government to do things like,

00:15:13.180 okay, well, we're going to cook food for the troops every day.

00:15:17.060 And, you know, I started asking, well, how, you know, if I walk into the chow hall tent or building or whatever

00:15:22.200 and get a bowl of cereal and a banana for breakfast, how much is KBR Halliburton charging the U.S. federal government for that?

00:15:31.340 And it was some outrageous price.

00:15:32.720 In 2005, it was like $40 per service member, per meal.

00:15:37.700 They served four meals a day.

00:15:39.680 And then started, we made friends with these people from the Philippines and Nepal and Sri Lanka who were working there.

00:15:45.580 After, I was like, how much are you getting paid?

00:15:47.620 Oh, $500 a month.

00:15:50.080 Right.

00:15:50.360 $500 a month.

00:15:50.980 So that actually answers one of the questions I wanted to bring up later, you know.

00:15:55.100 I guess you've answered it in two ways, is that one of the reasons I have a certain sympathy for people like Bernie Sanders

00:16:03.100 and more recently for people like both Russell Brand and Joe Rogan is because there's a necessary voice on the left

00:16:13.140 that targets something like corporate governance, government, media collusion at the highest levels, right?

00:16:22.940 Yes.

00:16:23.140 Construction of these gigantic, tentacled, multilateral organizations that engage in regulatory capture

00:16:31.020 and then turn into, let's say, what Eisenhower warned everybody about in relationship to the military-industrial complex.

00:16:38.140 And there's a necessary voice on the left that I don't think precisely should be striving against capitalism per se.

00:16:46.260 I think that's the big mistake, but should be striving against fascist corporate government collusion.

00:16:53.080 And we should all be striving against that, that's for sure.

00:16:56.340 It'd be nice to get that straightened out.

00:16:57.920 But you did, I think, answer some of my question about why I was going to ask you later about why you supported Bernie Sanders.

00:17:05.040 But we'll get back to that.

00:17:06.100 Yeah, I'd like to talk about that later.

00:17:08.140 Yeah, okay, okay.

00:17:09.600 So I got a question for you also.

00:17:12.500 Now, I'm curious about how your views developed and what they are now about the issue of women in combat.

00:17:20.100 You know, we've opened up the military to female participation. 1.00

00:17:23.460 And generally speaking, it appears that opening up avenues of participation to women has immense benefits for women,

00:17:31.660 if handled correctly for children, certainly on the economic front.

00:17:35.420 It doubles the pool of available talent for everyone.

00:17:38.940 I know the best predictor of development in the third world is rights accorded to women, especially on the economic front. 0.87

00:17:45.040 So that all looks like a good thing.

00:17:46.800 But then, you know, I have my skepticism about the practical and ethical utility of placing women on the front lines, for example, in battle positions. 0.79

00:17:57.500 And there's obviously a huge disparity in physical strength and probably an innate aggression.

00:18:03.720 And, you know, and that could go one way or another because it isn't completely obvious that the most aggressive soldiers are the best, even though that might seem self-evident.

00:18:13.480 Now, you've, well, you've been there.

00:18:16.720 So what did you conclude about the integration of women into the armed forces? 0.60

00:18:22.500 What's good about that and what's not good about it, assuming there is anything not good about it?

00:18:27.180 My position on this, and this is based on my experience, is that we should have the best people for the job, whatever that job may be.

00:18:40.020 The people who are best equipped, who are best trained, who have the capabilities, both, you know, mental, emotional, and physical.

00:18:48.360 And that women on their face, simply for their gender, should not be disqualified from various jobs simply because of that. 0.97

00:18:59.720 I have served alongside, obviously, many men and women, people who have been very good at their jobs because of their skills and their capabilities, and others who don't have those skills and capabilities.

00:19:13.480 And so whether those jobs are serving as an infantry soldier or an artillery soldier, whether you're serving in a combat unit or a support unit, what I want, both as a soldier, who I want to be serving alongside, but also I think when you look at this from a policy perspective, what we should want as a country is we need the best people who are going to do, who are best equipped to do the job.

00:19:40.460 Not all women are best equipped to serve in a combat unit.

00:19:44.160 Not all men are best equipped to serve in a combat unit.

00:19:47.280 So there should not be an arbitrary standard simply based on gender, but rather set the standard.

00:19:55.200 And if you meet the standard, whether you're a man or a woman, then you want the job. 0.53

00:20:00.420 Go get it.

00:20:01.080 I don't believe in—

00:20:01.860 So it's pure merit-based evaluation as far as you're concerned.

00:20:05.180 Correct.

00:20:05.380 I guess that would bring up—that brings up two problems, I suppose, is one is that there are physical standards set for jobs like firefighter and policeman and obviously military practitioner, soldier.

00:20:17.440 And those standards, especially in elite units, are extremely high.

00:20:21.480 I mean, they're high enough so most men can't manage them at all.

00:20:24.540 And because of the difference, especially in upper body strength, women have a lot of stamina, but difference in upper body strength really differentiates men from women.

00:20:32.300 If the physical standards are set high enough to exclude, say, 95% of men, they're going to exclude virtually all women. 0.98

00:20:40.540 And then the question comes up, well, should you keep the standards?

00:20:43.300 And obviously, some level of physical prowess is necessary.

00:20:47.620 But if the standard is 100% exclusionary on the sex front, then it raises the question of whether the standard itself is sexist, let's say, in a counterproductive manner.

00:20:57.980 And so—

00:20:58.680 Sure.

00:20:59.320 Thoughts about that?

00:21:00.060 I think the question is, what is the basis for the standard?

00:21:04.460 And I know that there are some standards that have been set traditionally in the military, well, this is an elite unit, so the standards must be exclusionary, so we only get the most elite people.

00:21:16.180 But are those standards simply based on a concept of elite-ism, I guess, in this context?

00:21:22.640 Or are they set based on the conditions that soldiers serving in that particular unit will be likely to face?

00:21:29.940 Are they based on the reality of the requirements of the job?

00:21:33.760 And so if we're in a situation, and there are jobs, both in the military, as you mentioned, first responders and others, if those standards are set on a realistic assessment of what this job will require, and it turns out that, hey, one out of 100 women who apply actually qualifies, then so be it.

00:21:53.600 You know, whatever, if there are a greater number of men who qualify, then so be it.

00:21:57.520 If we have people who have people who get these jobs who cannot do the job, then it's pointless, and it puts themselves and it puts the entire unit and mission at risk in doing so.

00:22:09.460 Well, there's a measurement science that's been devoted to this for a long time, and there are actually guidelines for psychologists who do assessment, let's say, in relationship to a particular job.

00:22:21.080 Some of those are enshrined in appropriate law.

00:22:24.280 And then the notion is, first of all, that you have to do a job analysis, which is, okay, what is it that the people who are doing this job, who are good at it, spend the bulk of their time doing?

00:22:35.180 Sure.

00:22:35.380 You can measure that, although that's not easy, for example, it's not that easy to measure the performance of a middle manager, for example, in a corporation, because the outcomes are difficult to specify.

00:22:45.840 But you can do a better or worse job of that, and if you do a good job, then you can find out what predicts prowess, and you can do that statistically, and then you define merit, right?

00:22:57.580 Merit is what makes it likely that you will do very well doing whatever this job is for.

00:23:04.420 That's merit.

00:23:05.720 And that can be handled properly.

00:23:08.160 The problem is, as you alluded to, if you accept merit defined in that manner as the gold standard, then you're going to have to accept the outcome, which is that there isn't going to be radical equity at all levels of analysis in the candidate pool.

00:23:25.080 And so you have to forego that, and it certainly seems, I would say, that on the left side of things now, people are almost entirely unwilling to forego that equity outcome.

00:23:36.200 I mean, even Kamala Harris, who should have known better, tweeted out a few weeks ago her support for this concept of equity, and people who aren't paying attention think that means equality of opportunity, which is not what it means at all, which is why it's a different word.

00:23:50.920 It means that if the outcomes of the selection process aren't equal across all conceivable combinations of ethnicity and gender, it's sex, et cetera, that intersectional morass, then the system is by definition exclusionary and prejudiced.

00:24:08.380 And that, well, that just kills merit, assuming that merit is not completely equally distributed.

00:24:14.920 Now, one other question on the female front.

00:24:17.760 So one of the things that's disturbed my conscience with regards to women on the front lines is that there's always the possibility that you'll fall into the hands of the enemy.

00:24:27.980 And it wasn't very much fun for, let's say, British and American prisoners of war in Nazi camps in World War II, although there were some Geneva Convention arrangements that were still in place.

00:24:42.000 But I can't imagine what it would be like to be a frontline woman who fell into enemy hands.

00:24:47.580 I mean, that's a level of absolute, bloody, catastrophic hell that I think that we should be very, very cautious about exposing anyone to.

00:24:59.100 And so I have a proclivity to think that women are differentially susceptible to exploitation on the captured enemy front.

00:25:09.540 And I don't know exactly, you know, given credence to what you say about making sure we have the most qualified people.

00:25:17.580 You know, maybe you can ask people to face their death.

00:25:21.180 I don't know if it's okay to ask them to face endless gang rape and then death.

00:25:28.220 You know, that's pushing the envelope.

00:25:31.320 And so I don't know what you think about that.

00:25:32.960 I imagine that thoughts of that sort must have gone through your mind from time to time.

00:25:38.940 Sure.

00:25:39.280 It is the most, war is tragic and ugly to say the least.

00:25:48.920 And you're facing some of the most horrific conditions, which is one of the reasons why I don't support the draft is because as a soldier,

00:25:58.880 I don't want to be serving alongside anybody who hasn't made that choice to be there, who hasn't made that choice to be willing to make those sacrifices,

00:26:10.300 not only to give up one's life in service to our country, but to face the plethora of what could be the absolute worst case scenarios.

00:26:21.180 That's my perspective.

00:26:24.640 And so whether it's those scenarios are facing a male or a female soldier, these are some of the things that, you know,

00:26:33.820 both the training of the practical implications, but obviously the mental preparation for how anything could possibly go bad

00:26:44.220 is essential before sending troops into that situation.

00:26:48.320 Okay. So your sense, it sounds like your sense is that, you know, if people have been fully apprised of the risks,

00:26:57.400 and I think we outlined the most substantive risk on the female side, if people are fully apprised of that risk

00:27:03.340 and there's evidence that they actually understand what that means, which is no simple matter,

00:27:08.000 that it's okay to allow them to make that choice.

00:27:11.660 But that's partly why you introduced the idea that there's no compulsion in military conscription,

00:27:18.160 also partly because you don't get the best out of people if they're compelled, obviously.

00:27:22.560 So, okay. So, so anything else on the combat front or can we turn back to the Democrats?

00:27:28.900 I'd like you to do it.

00:27:30.060 Well, let's, I'll, I'll, I'll walk us back into that because, um...

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00:28:44.140 It is what motivated me to run for Congress.

00:28:48.060 We talked about, you know, okay, well, I've been with the Democratic Party for 20 years.

00:28:51.900 I chose to join the Democratic Party.

00:28:53.660 My experience on two Middle East deployments is what really drove me to run for Congress.

00:29:01.440 It wasn't something I had great, any ambition for, frankly, when I ran for the State House in 2002.

00:29:07.600 But being exposed to the cost of war, being exposed to both the military-industrial complex,

00:29:13.240 but what you described very well earlier is this collusion in the narrative and the push coming from elected officials in Washington,

00:29:22.520 the establishment of people in both political parties who are part of this warmongering uniparty,

00:29:29.980 so much of, I guess, the mainstream media or legacy media that we have seen, you know,

00:29:35.900 amp up and beat the drums for war over and over, not interested in actually exposing the truth or asking any tough questions

00:29:43.940 as it comes to foreign policy and the decisions to go to war.

00:29:47.520 And, of course, now even more so, we're seeing big tech being a major contributor in this establishment narrative.

00:29:55.900 It's what drove me to run for Congress, to be able to be in a position where I could actually serve in a place to help make decisions

00:30:05.400 that would prevent us from continuing to go and wage these costly counterproductive wars

00:30:10.180 that actually end up undermining our own country's national security.

00:30:15.240 One of the main reasons why I chose to leave the Democratic Party is because the Democratic Party has become the war party. 0.96

00:30:28.020 Those voices that we talked about a little bit on the left who challenged the military-industrial complex,

00:30:35.280 challenged this pro-war narrative that we're seeing across the board, I don't see them anymore.

00:30:43.280 And worse yet, we have leaders in the Democratic Party who are the ones who are actually amping up these counterproductive wars,

00:30:51.840 who are amping up these new cold wars against Russia and China,

00:30:55.200 who are amping up and escalating and pushing us to the brink of nuclear war,

00:31:01.540 which is where we sit right now as a nation, which threatens us and threatens the world, frankly.

00:31:07.780 And doing so without any thought or consideration for the reality of something that was very eye-opening for us here in Hawaii

00:31:17.040 back in January of 2018 when we had a missile alert where we thought that North Korea was sending a nuclear missile to us

00:31:25.540 and that we had 15 minutes to live.

00:31:27.780 The government telling us, oh, seek shelter immediately.

00:31:30.820 This is not a drill, missile inbound to Hawaii, but we were confronted with the reality that there is no shelter.

00:31:37.360 There is literally no place to go.

00:31:40.080 To go, yeah.

00:31:40.920 And so not only have our leaders failed us in the sense of getting us to this point where that is now a reality

00:31:46.580 that every single one of us lives with right now, but also they tell us, oh, seek shelter, get inside, stay inside.

00:31:53.780 There is no shelter.

00:31:55.220 They may have some fancy shelters where they may be able to survive and continue to wage war in the event that we get there, 0.91

00:32:02.280 but the vast majority of people in this country and people around the world will be the ones that suffer the catastrophic consequences of a nuclear holocaust.

00:32:11.400 There is no shelter.

00:32:12.360 They have not provided that shelter.

00:32:14.520 And so this question of how my experience is there on these deployments,

00:32:21.580 the experiences that I've had throughout this time was one of the main reasons why I left the Democratic Party.

00:32:27.760 And frankly, it was one of the main reasons that back in 2016 that I saw the necessity to leave as vice chair of the DNC

00:32:38.700 to go and speak out against Hillary Clinton's warmongering record as she was trying to become our country's commander-in-chief

00:32:48.360 and the dangers of what would happen if that became a reality.

00:32:52.020 Okay, so it was primarily a consequence of concerns about, well, concerns about the military-industrial complex.

00:32:57.900 Okay, let's segue for a minute then.

00:32:59.540 I made a couple of videos about the Russia-Ukraine war, you know, making a foray into a domain that's obviously contentious enough to produce a war, let's say.

00:33:11.220 And here's my problem.

00:33:15.540 I don't understand.

00:33:17.440 Now, I've listened to a lot of hawks on the American side talk about, well, two things.

00:33:22.360 It's about the fact that it appears likely, and this is independent of the merits of this claim,

00:33:27.760 it appears likely that the Ukraine, supported by the West in the manner it has been supported,

00:33:33.640 can do serious damage to Russia's conventional arms force.

00:33:40.000 And I think there is evidence that the Ukrainians and the West are pushing the Russians back,

00:33:46.800 and God only knows how far that will go.

00:33:49.040 So, and the hawks that I've talked to said, that's a good thing.

00:33:53.160 It's in our interest to ensure that Russia is no longer a conventional military threat.

00:33:59.040 And, no, I have a certain degree of sympathy for that viewpoint.

00:34:03.480 But then here's the counter problem as I see it.

00:34:07.020 So I try to look forward into the future, and I think, okay, what does a victory for the West look like?

00:34:14.760 Forget about Ukraine.

00:34:15.720 Ukraine victory is they get their territory back.

00:34:18.340 And there's a wall between them and the Russians and the pesky Russians. 1.00

00:34:22.720 Leave them alone, and they go back to whatever level of appalling corruption they had managed before the war.

00:34:28.120 And so that's the Ukraine victory.

00:34:30.300 The West, well, let's say we could do this two ways.

00:34:33.620 Okay, so Putin is deposed, however that happens, and then what?

00:34:41.280 And then we have a better leader in Russia?

00:34:43.420 We have a more trustworthy leader?

00:34:44.620 Yeah, I don't think so.

00:34:47.080 The Russians haven't got a great history of that.

00:34:49.220 And no matter what you think of Putin, it's definitely the case that he isn't the worst leader that emerged in Russia in the last hundred years by any measure.

00:34:57.740 So that's a big problem.

00:34:59.200 And then I think, well, instead of Putin being replaced by someone who could be better but probably won't be, we'll have a Russia that's really fragmented and that, you know, the country in some ways collapses.

00:35:13.160 And that's a really bad idea because there's a lot of nuclear bombs there.

00:35:17.660 And if you get the fragmentation of that power structure into multiple chieftains, let's say, and a few of them emerge armed with nuclear bombs, then we have a major problem on our hands.

00:35:30.280 And that seems to me to be a highly likely outcome.

00:35:33.500 And so, and then if we weaken Russia severely and permanently, then we have the problem of a severely and permanently weakened Russia. 0.71

00:35:43.960 And that's a big problem because they produce a lot of fertilizer. 0.95

00:35:47.080 And the Europeans happen to be dependent on them for a lot of their energy needs.

00:35:52.460 So that doesn't look very wise.

00:35:53.880 And then we have the absolute bloody catastrophic probability that if Putin starts to lose in any serious way and so starts to believe that Russian territorial integrity is threatened, however he defines that,

00:36:10.680 that he has an immense array of unbelievably powerful next generation weapons at his disposal and why the hell wouldn't he use them?

00:36:20.860 And so, so let's walk through that.

00:36:23.320 I mean, imagine the West wins.

00:36:26.920 Okay, what does that mean?

00:36:28.620 I don't see what that means.

00:36:30.880 I don't, I, and I, I haven't heard anyone described to me what the, the goal of this war is.

00:36:38.800 You know, we're supporting the heroic Ukrainians. 0.97

00:36:41.560 It's like, yeah, you're a, you're a moralizing scoundrel. 0.97

00:36:45.300 That's not a plan. 1.00

00:36:46.940 That's, that's idiot hand-waving as bad as the environmental, you know, doomsayers. 1.00

00:36:53.620 It's the same thing. 1.00

00:36:54.700 Cheap moral victory.

00:36:57.720 Make, make a pro, can you make a pro and then a cautionary war case in relationship to the Russia and Ukraine?

00:37:06.180 What's in America's true interests as far as you're concerned?

00:37:09.680 Well, well, this is, this is exactly, you have very clearly laid out not only the problem with how this, President Biden,

00:37:19.820 and frankly, Democrat and Republican leaders in Congress who are applauding and pushing for and escalating this war is how short-sighted they are,

00:37:32.260 but also this has been the problem in U.S. foreign policy from our leaders for so long is,

00:37:38.160 is they are not actually thinking clearly, if they're thinking at all, about what is, what is our goal?

00:37:46.920 What is our objective?

00:37:48.560 What, you said, what does a win look like?

00:37:50.900 How is it defined?

00:37:51.760 Even theoretically.

00:37:53.240 Even theoretically.

00:37:54.840 Yeah.

00:37:55.080 Whether it's, whether it's realistic or not, just saying, well, we're fighting for democracy.

00:37:58.540 That's not, that's not a goal.

00:38:01.660 Also, it's in direct, it's in direct conflict with the reality of their actions, even here in the United States,

00:38:09.340 about how many undemocratic decisions and increasingly authoritarian decisions they are making.

00:38:14.780 But on this question of the war in, what is essentially a proxy war against Russia,

00:38:21.440 the United States is waging a proxy war against Russia, the Ukrainian people are paying the price. 0.99

00:38:28.780 They have not outlined what a win looks like.

00:38:32.080 Anytime anyone asks President Biden or anyone in the Biden administration is,

00:38:35.980 when does this end?

00:38:37.140 How does this end?

00:38:38.500 They throw out this cheap one-liner of saying, well, that's up to Putin.

00:38:43.660 And whenever Putin stops-

00:38:45.480 Oh, good, that's good.

00:38:46.280 That's up to the guy with the hydrogen bombs. 0.75

00:38:48.460 Exactly.

00:38:48.760 That's a brilliant, that's bloody brilliant.

00:38:50.960 Look, I know what I would do if I was Putin.

00:38:52.920 I know it.

00:38:53.600 I know it.

00:38:54.800 As soon as I felt that I was in danger of a true law.

00:38:58.420 See, I think Putin will settle for the devastation of Ukraine.

00:39:01.380 I think he could claim that as a victory.

00:39:03.380 The utter devastation of the Ukraine, because it stays out of Western hands. 0.84

00:39:07.080 But if Putin ever believed that his people even believed that they were now under attack,

00:39:14.120 let's say by German tanks, let's say the probability that he's used a tactical

00:39:19.360 battlefield nuclear weapon seems to me to be extraordinarily high.

00:39:25.180 It's like, well-

00:39:26.120 It is.

00:39:26.980 For me, it's like, well, why wouldn't he?

00:39:29.100 And the issue is, well, you don't want to escalate.

00:39:31.080 It's like, yeah, that's already factored into the decision.

00:39:36.620 There is this theory, I don't know if you've heard it before, of escalate to de-escalate.

00:39:42.240 And so the response from the U.S. government is always, well, we don't think he'll resort

00:39:48.060 to that or we don't think that, you know, we're not, I even hear people say, well, we're

00:39:53.600 not even sure that his nuclear weapons are that great or will really work in the way

00:39:57.920 that we think could cause major damage.

00:40:01.200 But the fact that they're even theorizing about any of this without recognizing the

00:40:06.620 very direct and real cost to human civilization on this planet is exactly the problem.

00:40:14.460 They're living in some fantasy land that it's hard to connect.

00:40:17.860 It's hard to connect with because it's not based in the reality of the situation you're

00:40:22.060 facing.

00:40:22.440 And you have laid it out very clearly of the different possible outcomes.

00:40:25.880 We've heard President Biden say and others in the Department of Defense, well, we got

00:40:30.080 to get rid of that guy, Putin, but not actually.

00:40:32.740 For what?

00:40:33.200 For who?

00:40:33.960 For who?

00:40:34.420 For who and to what end?

00:40:38.620 To what is the alternative?

00:40:39.780 They have no idea who will step up or what kind of Russia will exist in the aftermath of

00:40:44.460 that.

00:40:45.020 We can look throughout history to see how U.S. foreign policy, especially in regime change

00:40:50.200 wars, have failed so spectacularly in different regions around the world because they go and

00:40:55.560 pick which dictator they like or don't like.

00:40:58.280 Well, we'll take this guy out, replace him with this guy.

00:41:01.040 And then all of these disastrous unintended negative consequences come both for the United

00:41:06.620 States and the people in these countries.

00:41:08.440 And yet here we are now where we are facing that exact same prospect with the country that

00:41:15.960 has the most nuclear weapons in the entire world.

00:41:21.340 Right.

00:41:21.760 So look at what happened after the Germans went into France in World War I and wreaked havoc 1.00

00:41:28.860 in that idiot war, World War I, their entire industrial machine was devastated. 0.99

00:41:39.280 They had a period of hyperinflation. 0.99

00:41:41.320 They were subject to that extraordinarily punitive Versailles Treaty.

00:41:45.040 And that could be imposed upon them because they were devastated.

00:41:47.880 And hypothetically, we could do the same thing with Russians if they're beat very badly on 1.00

00:41:52.100 the conventional front and they emerge weak.

00:41:54.480 And we put punitive measures in place to keep them weak.

00:41:59.400 And then we might remember just exactly what happened to Germany as a consequence of the 0.86

00:42:03.220 Versailles Treaty because they didn't stay weak for long.

00:42:06.240 And, you know, maybe the Russian nuclear weapons are no better than anything else the Soviets 0.93

00:42:10.920 built, but that doesn't mean a few of them won't go off.

00:42:13.760 And it's really not going to take that many because after all, they are nuclear weapons.

00:42:17.540 And so even one that doesn't work that well is going to be a lot more spectacular than

00:42:22.580 anything that happened in 1945 in Hiroshima.

00:42:25.840 We can be absolutely certain of that.

00:42:27.700 So again, you know, the mystery is fair enough, man.

00:42:31.100 We want victory.

00:42:32.300 Okay, no problem.

00:42:33.800 What's the victory?

00:42:36.240 One of the common responses that you hear from both people in the White House, from politicians

00:42:42.720 in Washington, both when talking specifically about Russia, but you hear this very often whenever

00:42:48.600 they see there's a bad actor on the world stage.

00:42:51.740 Well, the United States needs to take action to punish them, to send them a message.

00:42:56.360 And whether this is through economic warfare or kinetic or tactical warfare direct, whether

00:43:04.400 indirect or direct, this is a line that they have.

00:43:06.700 Well, we have to punish them. 0.99

00:43:07.820 We have to punish them. 0.99

00:43:08.700 And so they're making decisions about, well, we got to make life hard for them, punish them

00:43:13.360 in whatever means that we can, but not actually thinking about within the context that they

00:43:18.620 should be, which is for us in this country, what action should we take that is in the best

00:43:23.860 interest for the well-being of the American people and our country and our national security

00:43:27.440 and our freedom?

00:43:28.820 And who's the them?

00:43:30.440 That's the other things. 0.98

00:43:31.460 Well, we need to punish the Russians. 1.00

00:43:33.140 It's like, well, who exactly are you talking about here?

00:43:36.860 Are you talking about the elites that are in control? 0.99

00:43:39.260 Are you talking about the whole damn population? 0.99

00:43:40.940 For how long? 0.99

00:43:42.640 And as you already pointed out, to what end?

00:43:45.640 To what end?

00:43:46.540 So to what end?

00:43:47.540 To what end is all this?

00:43:48.960 And well, we touched on that a little bit.

00:43:51.380 You can't help but, and this is where I suppose I turn into a leftist in some real sense, at

00:43:58.480 least in relationship to what you might describe as a stance against gigantism.

00:44:02.640 It's like, to what end?

00:44:03.620 Well, how about military industrial profits that are staggering?

00:44:08.440 How about that end?

00:44:09.340 And if there's no other end in sight, and I'm not particularly skeptical about capitalism

00:44:13.860 except in its gigantism forms, it's like if there's no other end being outlined, well,

00:44:19.940 I'm going to go with profit as the motive because if you have a better theory, man, lay it out.

00:44:26.380 But I don't see anything.

00:44:27.440 And, you know, given that it was Eisenhower who knew what he was talking about, having

00:44:33.460 been supreme commander of the allied forces, when he warned about the military industrial

00:44:38.160 complex being the biggest threat we faced back in, what, about 1959, that was something

00:44:43.380 to take seriously.

00:44:44.460 And it's something to take seriously again.

00:44:46.520 So what, do you have any sense, and have you talked to anybody who, as far as you're concerned,

00:44:53.620 has some reasonable vision about what actually might be done in a sensible manner on the Russia-Ukraine

00:45:00.040 front?

00:45:01.300 Well, the reasonable people who are rooted in reality and not fantasy understand that the

00:45:06.980 only way to bring about an end to this war is through diplomatic means of bringing together

00:45:13.340 the different stakeholders and actually coming to an understanding, whether it's through

00:45:17.920 the form of a treaty or whatever that agreement may look like, where no one is going to walk

00:45:23.020 away happy, but there is a reasonable approach to being able to find that agreement.

00:45:29.640 You'll hear from the Biden administration any time this is brought up, well, Zelensky and

00:45:33.160 Ukraine have to be the ones to drive this. 1.00

00:45:35.360 They're the ones who have to set the terms and everything else.

00:45:37.900 The only way that they're able to continue doing what they're doing is through the means

00:45:43.340 that the United States, largely the United States, but also some other countries in

00:45:47.760 Europe, are providing them with the weapons and the money and the ability to do so.

00:45:52.700 So the United States, President Biden has a responsibility.

00:45:55.480 We could definitely stop lying about the fact that this is Ukraine.

00:46:01.120 Yeah, exactly.

00:46:02.120 Nobody with any sense at all believes that.

00:46:05.780 I mean, we're in a proxy war for sure, and we have been from the beginning, and so we might

00:46:09.500 as we'll be crystal clear about that.

00:46:11.560 Exactly.

00:46:11.820 So hey, so Trump popped up the other day, as he has a proclivity to do, and he said,

00:46:16.780 if I was president, I'd stop this war in 24 hours.

00:46:20.880 And, you know, that's typical Trump overstatement, I would say.

00:46:24.800 But it is the case that the war emerged on Biden's watch and not Trump's watch, and that's

00:46:29.740 not nothing.

00:46:31.100 And so what do you make of that?

00:46:35.400 What do you make of Trump?

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00:47:54.120 When we diagnosed the Democrats a bit, let's turn to the Republicans.

00:48:01.320 Only Trump knows what Trump would be doing in this situation.

00:48:06.400 But as we're talking about a diplomatic end to this war, something that should have happened 0.95

00:48:10.880 a very long time ago, something the Biden administration has been blocking, categorically

00:48:15.940 blocking even efforts between Russia and Ukrainian officials on their own, who are trying to come

00:48:20.720 together.

00:48:20.920 It's been the United States that has been blocking them, telling Ukraine, no, leave the table,

00:48:25.160 don't negotiate.

00:48:26.120 How have they been blocking?

00:48:27.620 What are the details of that?

00:48:28.380 There are multiple reports publicly of Biden administration officials telling Ukraine not

00:48:35.120 to negotiate, as well as other countries who have been also sharing that they've been

00:48:39.560 getting that same message.

00:48:40.840 Going all the way back to, I think, March, shortly after this war kicked off, when there were-

00:48:47.240 Yeah, I heard the same thing.

00:48:48.340 I heard that from people I was talking to who knew what they were talking about in Israel

00:48:52.020 too, that the Russians, there were avenues open quite early in the conflict where diplomatic

00:48:57.500 maneuvering could have hypothetically proved useful, and that that was blocked.

00:49:03.720 Now, I'm not saying it would have been useful, but I couldn't understand when this all broke

00:49:08.260 out why the number one priority of Western leaders, who instead gathered to make fun of Putin's

00:49:16.560 hyper-masculinity, and it was a pretty sad bunch of wimps gathered around the G7 table who were

00:49:21.980 managing that, I might say.

00:49:23.160 Right.

00:49:23.620 Instead of noting that if they had any sense at all, they'd be trying to broker something

00:49:28.300 like an intelligence arrangement so that we didn't face the likely possibility of being

00:49:33.920 dragged by our shirt sleeve into the maw of the military-industrial complex and end up all

00:49:39.420 turned to shreds as a consequence, which I think is the most likely outcome of what's

00:49:43.420 happening now.

00:49:44.460 Because what I know something about World War I and World War II, and one of the- and the 0.99

00:49:49.740 other wars we've been in since, is that what tends to happen is you get pulled in one stupid 0.98

00:49:54.860 step at a time, especially if you're also turning a blind eye to the chicanery of your 0.99

00:50:01.460 wealthy friends who are profiting like mad on the war front.

00:50:04.300 And so people always, I think they said, you know, when World War I started, it was like,

00:50:08.960 the troops will be home for Christmas.

00:50:11.180 It's like, yeah, guess that didn't happen.

00:50:13.740 And then it's many, many years later, and it's not like that didn't happen in Vietnam or 0.59

00:50:17.860 Iraq or Afghanistan, like this will be over soon.

00:50:20.980 It's like, yeah, I don't think so.

00:50:22.900 That isn't how these things work.

00:50:24.860 No.

00:50:25.520 And who walked away with the most profits in the war in Afghanistan alone?

00:50:32.820 Major defense contractors.

00:50:35.180 What does the Department of Defense have to say about the money that was spent there?

00:50:38.300 They can't even account for the vast majority of money that was spent there.

00:50:42.460 What can we say as a country?

00:50:42.980 Yeah, we're talking billions of dollars, billions or hundreds of billions of dollars.

00:50:47.100 Yes, hundreds of billions of dollars.

00:50:48.860 It's trillions, if I remember correctly.

00:50:50.780 Overall, what was spent.

00:50:52.180 Yes, trillions of dollars were spent on that war.

00:50:54.640 Spent and unaccounted for.

00:50:56.620 Exactly.

00:50:57.160 Spent and unaccounted for.

00:50:58.520 Right, so that's pretty damn convenient for whoever those trillions of dollars went to.

00:51:02.960 For the military-industrial complex.

00:51:05.700 And then, you know, you have these defense contractors, again, saying publicly, war is good 0.98

00:51:10.940 for business.

00:51:12.360 Period.

00:51:12.900 Well, there's no doubt about that.

00:51:14.280 If you're not on the front line, because your bank account isn't that useful to you

00:51:19.860 when you're dead.

00:51:20.920 But if someone else is dead, and the consequence of that is that your bank account is accruing 0.99

00:51:25.680 profits quite nicely, well, you know, that's all well and good, especially if you're a psychopathic 0.98

00:51:30.440 narcissist, and it's all about you. 0.99

00:51:33.520 That's right.

00:51:33.920 And so, and there's no shortage of that going around at the highest echelons of, what would

00:51:39.020 you call it, fascist collusion.

00:51:40.560 And we're seeing that pretty much everywhere.

00:51:43.000 Yeah.

00:51:43.140 So, okay, so let's turn to the Republicans.

00:51:46.300 Okay.

00:51:47.620 We've had our shot at the warmongering Democrats, let's say.

00:51:51.980 Although, I think we'll return to their problems.

00:51:54.960 But let's look at the Republican side.

00:51:57.560 Now, you're sitting as an independent at the moment.

00:52:00.000 That's correct.

00:52:00.560 I've got that right.

00:52:01.560 Yes, good.

00:52:02.060 And so, you're not aligned with the Republicans or the Democrats, which either makes you extremely

00:52:07.640 hard to get along with and someone no one likes, or, right, because that's a possibility.

00:52:13.980 Yeah.

00:52:14.200 Or, you know, or you're in a neutral position in some sense at the moment with a lot of

00:52:18.880 experience on the Democrat front, right?

00:52:21.780 A lot of detailed experience.

00:52:23.120 And so, what do you think's good about the Republicans and what do you think they're

00:52:27.480 locking?

00:52:28.940 Well, I think there are a number of Republicans who are, obviously, who are a part of this

00:52:35.420 permanent Washington establishment, that whether we're talking about the issue of war and peace

00:52:40.220 or we're talking about, you know, the crony capitalism, you know, I'm not against capitalism

00:52:45.860 either, but you look at the crony capitalism of industries like big pharma or the so-called

00:52:52.540 healthcare industry that really doesn't care about people's actual health and well-being.

00:52:57.840 You could go kind of across the board of what is wrong with the corruption in permanent Washington

00:53:03.340 where politicians are essentially paid off and therefore working for the interests of

00:53:07.760 these industries rather than the interests of the people that they've been elected to

00:53:11.360 serve.

00:53:11.660 And there are both Republicans and Democrats who are not only entrenched in this, but

00:53:16.080 who are in those positions because of this system.

00:53:21.400 And it is what is working.

00:53:22.420 That's outright fascism by definition, right?

00:53:24.840 Because the fascists, the definition of fascism is essentially corporate government collusion

00:53:30.380 at the highest levels.

00:53:31.960 And so, yeah, the deep state that everyone paranoid is paranoid about and for good reason is essentially

00:53:37.360 a collusionist fascist regime.

00:53:40.800 And increasingly an international collusionist fascist regime.

00:53:44.440 And when people say crony capitalism, you know, it's a weak phrase for what's essentially

00:53:50.640 a fascist enterprise.

00:53:52.700 And as you said, you know, there are people in the Democrat Party and in the Republicans

00:53:56.800 who are pulled into that web of collusion.

00:53:59.640 And it's easy for that to happen, too, because...

00:54:01.960 It is.

00:54:03.080 Yeah, yeah.

00:54:03.840 You get sucked into the system quickly and you think, well, this is just the way it works.

00:54:07.440 And so if I want to do anything in Washington, if I want to get anywhere, even people who

00:54:10.880 I know who came in, I got elected with, best of intentions, it is very quickly inculcated,

00:54:18.920 like within the first few days of being there, that this is the way the world works, buddy.

00:54:23.540 And if you want to get anywhere to be able to do what you came here to do, well, this is

00:54:27.800 the game and the rules you've got to play by.

00:54:29.840 And then very quickly before you know it, those good intentions that you came up with

00:54:35.760 are lost and you are no longer serving the interests of the people.

00:54:40.900 You are serving...

00:54:41.900 You have become a puppet of those who are the puppet masters in this world.

00:54:46.300 Well, you are a neophyte when you first enter the ring, you know, even once you're elected.

00:54:50.540 I mean, in terms of the constituents you represent, you're sort of at a pinnacle.

00:54:53.900 But as a newbie in Washington, you know, you're lost.

00:54:58.020 You're a freshman.

00:54:58.580 They're literally called freshmen.

00:54:59.800 You get elected and you are the freshman class.

00:55:02.080 And you've got no knowledge and you've got no allies.

00:55:05.400 And then there's also going to be the part of you that wants to hang out with the cool

00:55:10.280 kids.

00:55:10.880 Exactly.

00:55:11.540 Right.

00:55:12.120 Absolutely.

00:55:12.760 And some of that's actually just humility, you know, because you don't have any allies

00:55:16.820 or friends and you do need to know how the system operates.

00:55:19.760 And so that's a big problem.

00:55:21.340 But you have to be grounded in principles.

00:55:24.200 You have to go there and be grounded in your principles and your mission and your purpose,

00:55:30.580 which was not just to go and like get along and be around this interesting group of people

00:55:35.180 and get the fancy title, though that is some people's purpose.

00:55:38.120 But in order to be truly effective there, you have to go there and be very grounded in

00:55:44.280 your principles and purpose so that you don't then become the puppet for these other powerful

00:55:52.020 interests.

00:55:52.560 And that frankly is exactly what I went through is when I got to Washington, you know, I was

00:55:57.740 lauded as like, oh my gosh, she's a rising star.

00:56:01.000 The headlines, she's a rising star of the Democratic Party and, you know, checking all the different

00:56:05.220 boxes of all the things that they look for, the labels that they look for.

00:56:08.680 She's a woman of color.

00:56:09.700 She's a veteran.

00:56:10.420 She's this and she's that.

00:56:12.160 And then they realized like, oh, hold on a second.

00:56:16.720 She's not just going to allow us to control her. 1.00

00:56:20.020 She's not just going to read the talking points that we send out in the morning email.

00:56:23.600 She's not just going to vote based on the way that we tell her to do.

00:56:28.640 They realized that I wasn't there.

00:56:30.500 And was we the DNC, essentially?

00:56:35.680 I mean, my experience with talking to congressmen in Washington has basically, it's actually been

00:56:41.220 somewhat, it's been disenchanting and I've also developed more sympathy for the congress

00:56:46.320 people because while they have hard jobs, it isn't obvious that anyone sensible would

00:56:51.840 ever take that job, even though it's necessary that they do.

00:56:54.380 Well, the new congressmen, they spend 20 to 30 hours a week fundraising.

00:57:00.880 They can't do that in their offices.

00:57:02.380 They have to rent another office and they spend all their time on their phone.

00:57:05.600 So they're basically glorified televangelists or telemarketers.

00:57:10.440 Forty percent of them don't live in Washington and sleep in their offices.

00:57:14.280 So there's no community there.

00:57:16.140 They have to run for reelection every two years, which means that not only are they, you know,

00:57:20.880 in a job that's very difficult as newbies, but it's a very unstable job.

00:57:24.820 They've destabilized their families by doing so.

00:57:27.160 It's hard for them to move their spouse to Washington.

00:57:30.460 And then, and this I think is especially true on the Democrat side, but it's also true

00:57:35.100 on the Republican side.

00:57:36.120 They're facing constant pressure from the powers that be, who are very entrenched, to do nothing 0.99

00:57:41.700 but raise money for the damn party, even though they waste almost all of that, and to tow 0.99

00:57:46.320 the bloody party line. 1.00

00:57:47.740 And of course, you have to have a certain amount of party discipline or you don't have

00:57:50.880 a party.

00:57:52.260 So anyways, that's a, now, so why don't you, what, what real temptations did you face?

00:57:59.060 And, you know, how did that warp you?

00:58:02.560 Because there's no way you get through this without a certain degree of warping.

00:58:05.940 And how did you, and to what degree were you successful in resisting that?

00:58:11.300 And why did you manage it?

00:58:12.700 So let's start with that.

00:58:13.800 What were the major temptations facing you when you first went to Washington?

00:58:17.920 Well, like I said, within the first few days of arriving there, before even being sworn

00:58:24.440 in as a member of Congress, there was a bifurcation.

00:58:29.200 We had, we had 84 people who were elected to Congress in 2012, new members of Congress.

00:58:35.220 I believe 50, if the numbers are right, I think there were 50 Democrats and 34 Republicans.

00:58:40.420 And so for the first week that we were there in what they call freshman orientation, we

00:58:44.640 were going through different policy briefings with people presenting on, you know, a whole

00:58:49.460 host of the issues that we face and people presenting from different sides, different

00:58:54.460 perspectives.

00:58:56.220 And we all went through that together.

00:58:58.080 And then after that, it was, okay, Democrats, you're going to go here.

00:59:01.200 Republicans, you're going to go there.

00:59:02.580 And that's where two things happened.

00:59:05.300 Number one is, is the partisan direction coming to members of Congress, basically preaching

00:59:12.000 in a nutshell, it is party first.

00:59:15.820 You will do what is best for the party first, rather than thinking about, well, what's in

00:59:20.500 the best interest of my constituents?

00:59:23.240 Or what about if I disagree with the party and this is a decision that I want to make,

00:59:27.820 you will make your decisions based on what's best for the party.

00:59:29.900 If you have an idea to introduce a bill, best not to go work with someone from the other

00:59:34.440 party, because that'll make them look good, it'll make it harder for us to beat them in 1.00

00:59:37.780 the next election.

00:59:39.000 So not about how do we solve problems, not about how do we be effective in serving our

00:59:43.640 constituents, all about the party power, keeping power, getting it back.

00:59:48.100 Those are the two things.

00:59:49.200 And both of us got those same messages from our respective political party leaders.

00:59:54.480 Part and parcel of that was exactly what you talked about.

00:59:57.020 There was a PowerPoint slide that was put up.

01:00:00.000 I remember it very distinctly because it was so shocking about, here's what your day will

01:00:06.100 look like and how many hours of the day, morning, noon, and night will be spent either at fundraisers

01:00:14.760 with lobbyists representing different industries, or as you said, on the phone, off-site, making

01:00:21.260 calls to those lobbyists to try to get more of them to come and give you money at the next

01:00:24.940 day's fundraisers, breakfast, lunch, and dinner.

01:00:28.280 And as I was looking at this slide, it was split up hour by hour.

01:00:31.360 Here's what your days will look like if you're doing your job.

01:00:34.160 Your 16-hour days.

01:00:35.440 Exactly.

01:00:36.320 And how the vast majority of a single day was not spent studying issues that you would have

01:00:42.620 to tackle in committee or working on legislation that you're going to introduce.

01:00:47.560 The vast majority of hours of that day would be spent fundraising from lobbyists representing

01:00:53.000 special interests.

01:00:54.580 And that's the expectation.

01:00:56.300 To get on certain committees that you want to get on.

01:00:58.720 You've got to give the party a certain amount of money and all of these different things.

01:01:03.980 And that's the frustration that the American people have with our politics right now.

01:01:08.740 And obviously, it's been going on for a long time.

01:01:10.640 We know this.

01:01:13.700 We can see through their results that they don't actually care about making decisions

01:01:18.640 that are in the best interest of the people who are actually solving these problems.

01:01:21.880 It's being reactive.

01:01:23.460 And ultimately, when it comes down to it, when you hear what they are saying, for example,

01:01:29.140 like, oh, well, prescription drug prices are flying through the roof.

01:01:32.180 And people can't afford insulin.

01:01:33.720 Diabetics can't afford insulin.

01:01:35.300 And seniors can't afford the medicine that they need.

01:01:37.680 But when you actually look at the results, even though politicians complain about it,

01:01:42.060 there's not a regulation of big pharma that would actually seek to start solving some of

01:01:46.060 these problems in the ways that people need help.

01:01:47.920 And that's just one example of many.

01:01:50.100 Well, you know, here's maybe part of the underlying problem.

01:01:54.460 So I went to the Republican Governors Association meeting in November.

01:01:58.600 And I remember one of the people who presented, they were trying to rally the troops to some

01:02:03.380 degree, sharing policy information amongst themselves as governors.

01:02:07.680 And a lot of the Republican governors are pretty good at implementing, you know, micro policies.

01:02:13.500 And there's something to be said for that, right, that boots on the ground, pragmatic

01:02:17.160 competence.

01:02:19.120 They weren't very good at putting forward a vision.

01:02:22.480 And they weren't really very good at even rallying the fundraisers, you know, with a rousing

01:02:27.140 call to action.

01:02:28.280 And I think that's a problem on the Republican side.

01:02:30.520 But one of the presentations was extremely interesting to me as someone interested in

01:02:35.820 measurement, because the person got up and talked about how effective the Republicans

01:02:40.840 had been in certain jurisdictions, in certain key elections, in outspending the Democrats on

01:02:46.960 the advertising front.

01:02:48.080 And I thought, I thought three things at the same time.

01:02:51.520 The first thing I thought is, there is almost no evidence that election spending has any

01:02:56.060 effect whatsoever on the outcome of the election.

01:02:58.340 It's a marginal effect at most.

01:03:00.700 And so, and it's so marginal that political scientists have been debating for 20 years about

01:03:05.140 whether or not election spending helps at all, whether you're an incumbent or a challenger.

01:03:09.880 And so the fact that, and then, so that's a big problem.

01:03:13.160 It's like, it is not obvious that what you're paying for works.

01:03:16.900 That's a big problem.

01:03:18.400 Second, why in the world did we ever assume that the right metric for electoral competence

01:03:27.340 in running a campaign is how much money you spend?

01:03:31.940 No one in their right mind thinks that the right measure for doing a bathroom renovation

01:03:35.740 properly is the fact that it cost a million dollars when it could have cost 10,000.

01:03:40.080 That's just preposterous.

01:03:41.580 So it's a, so it's a, you know, it's a measurement problem in the fundamental analysis.

01:03:47.080 And then even worse on the Republican side.

01:03:49.940 And I think I asked this question, which didn't make me very popular at the meeting itself,

01:03:54.540 which is, I don't know if you noticed, but 95% of the legacy media to whom you're devoting

01:04:00.660 all this money actually really can't stand you or anything you stand for and is completely

01:04:06.420 100% tilted against you.

01:04:08.380 So on what grounds do you base your claim that spending more money than the Democrats

01:04:14.800 feeding this god-awful legacy media machine is, well, it's not effective and it's counterproductive

01:04:20.380 and they hate you.

01:04:21.480 So what are you doing?

01:04:23.460 And so then what happens in Washington?

01:04:25.560 And it's very similar is the, the parties devolve to the simplistic notion that those junior

01:04:33.120 congressmen who can beat the drum most effectively to raise money are ipso facto the most loyal

01:04:38.480 and competent.

01:04:39.100 And that's all based on a whole misapprehension of, did you know that the two leading causes

01:04:44.100 of sensitive teeth are irritated gums and weak enamel switch to Sensodyne sensitivity, gum

01:04:49.460 and enamel with twice daily brushing, you can relieve sensitivity, help restore gum health

01:04:53.980 and reharden enamel.

01:04:55.400 Three issues, one answer.

01:04:58.140 It's a measurement problem.

01:04:59.420 It's like the money you raise is not an indication of your competence.

01:05:03.040 It's the same problem we were talking about with relationship to women in the military to begin 1.00

01:05:06.700 with.

01:05:07.060 What the hell are you measuring?

01:05:08.640 Now, okay, you, now for whatever reason, you got on a lot of Democrat committees and you

01:05:14.560 ended up as vice chairman.

01:05:15.820 You had a pretty stellar career, very rapidly accelerating.

01:05:18.840 Now you claim that you weren't one of the junior congresspeople that could be, you know, subsumed

01:05:25.480 all that easily into the military industrial complex, for lack of a better word.

01:05:30.100 So if that was the case, then why in the world were you also able to move into leadership

01:05:39.980 positions in the Democrat Party?

01:05:41.780 Because hypothetically, you would have had to go along, and I'm sure you went along to

01:05:46.760 some degree, but you would have to go along.

01:05:49.260 That's what they're telling you.

01:05:50.240 You have to go along to get something done.

01:05:51.740 But you're saying you didn't particularly go along, or at least not always, and yet you

01:05:56.880 had a stellar career.

01:05:58.140 So how is that possible?

01:06:02.500 These opportunities, these, you know, vice chair of the DNC, we'll start with that one,

01:06:10.380 because I was, I was a top official of the National Democratic Party from 2000, I guess

01:06:19.280 I was sworn in January 2013, up until my choice to leave that position in 2016.

01:06:26.740 I was sitting in the backseat of a car shortly, it was around the time of President Obama's

01:06:33.580 re-election inauguration.

01:06:36.480 I got a phone call saying, hey, what would your answer be if you were asked to serve as

01:06:42.960 vice chair of the DNC?

01:06:44.000 I had been in office for less than a month, and my response to this person who called

01:06:50.200 me was, I don't know, what is a vice chair of the DNC?

01:06:55.800 What do they do?

01:06:57.460 What would the expectations be?

01:07:00.000 What would, you know, what kinds of things would I be able to do?

01:07:03.960 Is this just a by-name thing, or would I actually be able to do something?

01:07:07.440 I didn't have any idea what that was.

01:07:10.060 But I was offered that position, and I thought, well, hey, I agreed to do it, because I thought

01:07:15.100 maybe this is an opportunity for me to be, bring some, and affect some change in the Democratic

01:07:20.160 National Party.

01:07:20.900 So these, a lot of these different things came to me without me seeking them out at all.

01:07:28.600 Why?

01:07:29.080 Why?

01:07:29.520 Because of what I talked about.

01:07:31.280 They, excuse me, they saw the superficial, and they thought, well, this is somebody who

01:07:41.260 we can, you know, if I did go along, I can imagine, I think it would be a safe assumption

01:07:47.220 to say that they would have continued to push me up to the highest levels if I had been someone

01:07:54.140 that they thought I was, that I would just go along, and I could tell the story that they

01:07:58.240 wanted to tell and say the things that they wanted me to say.

01:08:01.140 And so when they asked me to be vice chair of the DNC, I had been in office less than

01:08:04.580 a month.

01:08:05.400 And who's they?

01:08:06.600 Who's the they that are asking? 0.87

01:08:08.140 It is, it is, it is, you know, the Democratic leadership in Congress, Democratic leadership

01:08:13.760 within, within the DNC.

01:08:16.280 And also, I got a lot of media coverage that I, I didn't have a press secretary, I didn't

01:08:21.900 have a publicist, I didn't seek any of this stuff out, but I kept getting calls, hey, we

01:08:25.960 want you on our show, we want to feature you in this magazine, we want to do this, we want

01:08:29.260 to do that.

01:08:30.200 And, and it, I, I questioned it a little bit, but ultimately I was like, hey, look, this

01:08:34.520 is an opportunity for me to be able to reach out to people and say what I want to say and

01:08:38.700 get across what I want to get across.

01:08:40.080 So I took advantage of those opportunities.

01:08:42.420 Well, you checked the identity boxes.

01:08:44.300 Exactly.

01:08:44.540 I presume that they thought that they were hoping that you might be, well, I want to

01:08:49.160 get back to this issue of they too.

01:08:51.080 You know, my experience with organizations and activists for that matter is that the

01:08:57.260 they turns out to be a very small number of people who are very well connected, who are

01:09:02.340 continually maneuvering.

01:09:03.900 And sometimes that's a consequence of their unbelievable competence.

01:09:07.460 And sometimes it's a consequence of their unbelievable capacity to manipulate and, and

01:09:12.760 capitalize on narcissism.

01:09:14.640 And that's a probably a problem in politics and entertainment and media more than anywhere

01:09:19.260 else for obvious reasons. 0.97

01:09:21.180 And I don't want to paint everyone with the same brush because that's, that's foolish.

01:09:26.060 But the they that are looking at you and thinking, well, you know, we can certainly look,

01:09:30.720 use someone with an image like hers for us. 1.00

01:09:33.680 And that's not all cynical, by the way.

01:09:37.340 Who, who are the, who are the people who are making those decisions as far as you're

01:09:41.900 concerned?

01:09:42.520 If we go back, say, well, when you were asked to serve as vice chairman, who are making

01:09:47.340 those, who is making those decisions?

01:09:48.860 Well, I mean, obviously Nancy Pelosi is one of them.

01:09:51.740 You know, Debbie Wasserman Schultz was the head of the DNC at the time.

01:09:58.200 There were people in the Obama administration.

01:10:01.260 There are people who were not elected officials and, and within the DNC, I'm sure there were

01:10:06.700 probably political donors as well who had a part, a part of that.

01:10:10.620 But, but, you know, we'll, we'll start with Nancy Pelosi.

01:10:12.740 I had won my primary election here in Hawaii in August of 2012.

01:10:18.420 And that in Hawaii, Hawaii is a very strong democratic state.

01:10:23.240 That was essentially the election.

01:10:24.660 I did have a Republican opponent and still had to go and win the general election.

01:10:27.800 But it was a safe assumption that I was going to, I had de facto already won the election.

01:10:33.780 And within a few weeks of winning that election, I had gotten a call from Nancy Pelosi saying,

01:10:39.480 would you like to come and speak during prime time at the Democratic National Convention?

01:10:43.480 That was going to happen shortly, shortly after that.

01:10:46.460 This was in Charlotte, North Carolina in 2012.

01:10:51.100 Someone who had not even yet been elected to Congress for the first time being invited

01:10:55.240 to speak on prime time.

01:10:57.000 It was, I was surprised.

01:10:59.040 I was very surprised.

01:11:01.020 The topic she was asking me to talk about is one that is obviously near and dear to my

01:11:04.120 heart to talk about veterans.

01:11:06.360 And, and so I said, yes, of course I will do that.

01:11:09.580 I went there and I spoke and I did interviews with just about every media channel that was out

01:11:14.880 there. And, but, but all of these different things, you know, there, there were not opportunities

01:11:20.880 that were given to, to the vast majority of people, I guess I'll, I'll put it that way.

01:11:25.960 Yeah.

01:11:26.460 But my decision, my decision to leave as vice chair of the DNC was one of those pivotal moments

01:11:32.260 where in the lead up to making that decision, it was, it was driven by a couple of things.

01:11:37.520 One was the recognition of the, the rules of the DNC is that you're, you're as an officer

01:11:42.620 of the DNC, you are not involved in tilting the scales or getting involved in democratic

01:11:48.940 primaries, especially democratic presidential primaries that you have different candidates.

01:11:53.880 They go out, they make their case.

01:11:55.440 And then the party coalesces around whoever the winner of that primary is.

01:11:59.800 Well, in the lead up to that 2016 primary election, I started to see very quickly that the decisions

01:12:08.520 that were being made, not in consultation with us as vice chairs of the DNC, but unilaterally

01:12:14.000 by Debbie Wasserman Schultz, who was the chair, who was very close with Hillary Clinton, were

01:12:18.720 made to give an advantage to Hillary Clinton. 0.54

01:12:21.080 For example, limiting the number of debates where she would have to face Bernie Sanders, putting

01:12:27.040 them at times where, you know, I think there was one that was scheduled during like the

01:12:31.340 Superbowl or something like that, when nobody was going to be watching or paying attention

01:12:35.080 to a presidential debate.

01:12:38.240 There were, there were new, newly implemented rules that said any democratic presidential

01:12:43.480 candidate that participates in a debate that is not sanctioned by the DNC will be banned

01:12:50.400 from participating in any future DNC debate.

01:12:53.400 And, and for me, I'm just thinking like, if our, if our purpose and our cause is to increase

01:13:00.380 involvement and engagement in our democracy, to get more people to pay attention, to learn

01:13:05.260 more about these different candidates, to actually have a real dialogue about these important

01:13:10.140 issues, why would you be punishing someone for going out and trying to engage in doing exactly

01:13:15.060 that?

01:13:15.400 Why would you be trying to limit the debate that the American people can be exposed to and

01:13:19.580 involved with?

01:13:20.680 And it was very clear why those decisions were made to give an advantage to Hillary Clinton, 0.77

01:13:26.020 who was designated as the one that the democratic party powers that be wanted to win that election.

01:13:32.780 And so their lack of integrity coupled with the fact that Hillary Clinton wanted to be our 1.00

01:13:39.440 commander in chief.

01:13:40.760 I still serve in the army reserves now for almost 20 years.

01:13:45.200 So for me, as someone serving in the reserves at the time, as well as a member of Congress,

01:13:50.140 as well as an American to have her in a position where both Democrats and the mainstream media 0.95

01:13:55.800 refused to challenge her on her record, both as a Senator and every position she had held

01:14:02.080 previous secretary of state and so forth previously on, on her, she is, she is the queen of war hawks.

01:14:08.900 She is the queen of warmongers. 1.00

01:14:10.620 No one challenged her.

01:14:11.780 They just said, well, she's got all these positions. 1.00

01:14:13.240 She's the most qualified.

01:14:14.840 I and so many of my brothers and sisters in uniform were like, hold on a second.

01:14:19.020 You need to ask her and hold her to account for the disastrous consequences for the decisions

01:14:24.240 that she has made, the wars that she has advocated for, the things that she has done that has not

01:14:29.980 only undermined our national security, but come at great cost to the men and women who volunteer

01:14:34.480 to serve this country.

01:14:35.880 Why do you think, okay, two questions on the Hillary front. 0.99

01:14:38.540 One of the reasons she terrified me, I suppose, is that it was pretty damn obvious that she's

01:14:48.560 been aiming at the presidency for 50 years.

01:14:52.680 Sure.

01:14:53.320 And that's a long time, right?

01:14:55.980 And you've got to ask yourself, what is driving someone who's that committed to that goal?

01:15:04.080 Like, and the goal is clearly the presidency.

01:15:07.120 It's not what could be done with the presidency.

01:15:10.420 And it's not like she was dragged in, kicking and screaming by people who were overwhelmingly

01:15:16.480 impressed by her prowess and who, you know, enjoined upon her for moral reasons to consider

01:15:22.520 a career in government.

01:15:23.700 It's like, no, no, no.

01:15:24.640 She's been laser focused on being the first female president of the United States for God 1.00

01:15:31.100 only knows how long.

01:15:32.160 And so that's concerning to me.

01:15:34.400 But then that doesn't answer the next or address the next mystery, which is, well, given that

01:15:42.760 she's a Democrat and given that the Democrats should, in principle, be somewhat skeptical,

01:15:46.960 let's say, of the fascist collusion between corporation and government and a little bit

01:15:51.640 skeptical on the military industrial side.

01:15:53.900 Like, why do you think that her record indicates that she's such a hawk on the military front?

01:16:01.440 Like, is that a compensation?

01:16:03.140 Is she attempting, this is a cheap, you know, psychological interpretation, could easily be

01:16:07.300 wrong.

01:16:08.020 Is she trying to look tough on the foreign policy front to, you know, to mitigate against

01:16:13.440 any criticism of the fact that she might not be capable of that?

01:16:16.460 Or what's going on?

01:16:17.960 Why is she doing that? 1.00

01:16:18.720 I don't think that's such a cheap analysis or assumption to make because that is a reality.

01:16:27.320 And that is one of my fears, not only about her, but also about some others who have been

01:16:33.420 in those types of position.

01:16:36.460 You look at someone like Kamala Harris, for example.

01:16:38.920 She's a breath away from the presidency. 1.00

01:16:41.280 And I have lost track of how many conversations-

01:16:42.400 You have a feeble breath, unfortunately.

01:16:44.300 Yes, exactly.

01:16:45.260 Which is incredibly concerning.

01:16:47.460 I have lost track of how many service members, American service members I have spoken with

01:16:52.960 who are absolutely terrified about the prospect of a President Harris for that reason.

01:16:59.420 She's proven-

01:16:59.900 You mean facing off against someone like Vladimir Putin, for example?

01:17:03.320 Wouldn't that be lovely?

01:17:04.520 Kamala Harris versus Vladimir Putin.

01:17:07.060 Oh, yeah.

01:17:07.680 Or anyone. 0.72

01:17:08.860 But somebody like her who is weak, who lacks understanding in foreign policy, who feels the need to be a

01:17:17.440 to prove herself, to prove her strength, to stand up with the big boys and look tough and somehow believe that, 0.96

01:17:25.480 well, hey, the best way to do that is to go drop some bombs somewhere and start a war.

01:17:30.500 This is a terrifying prospect for someone.

01:17:36.600 And you see this, yes, with some women who feel like they have to go and look tough, but that only happens if they're not actually strong, internally strong individuals themselves. 0.58

01:17:46.940 But we also see this with some of the male leaders in this country.

01:17:52.100 We saw how, you know, how people react.

01:17:55.840 Again, like in the media and in media, how the media and politics, how they react when we go to war.

01:18:01.600 We saw how Nancy Pelosi and Brian Williams and others declared Donald Trump.

01:18:06.540 This is the first time he seems presidential when he decided to go and launch some rockets and missiles against Syria.

01:18:12.760 People who hated him, people who could not stand him and were obsessed with trying to destroy President Trump.

01:18:19.800 All of a sudden, he goes and launches some bombs and they're all over the television saying, well, finally, he's acting like a president.

01:18:26.360 Give me a break.

01:18:27.400 This is the problem with the lack of leadership that we have and how, you know, you started this question asking about how is it the Democratic Party that should be the party that is,

01:18:36.760 at a minimum, skeptical and cynical about the military-industrial complex and going out and starting new wars and regime change and all of this stuff.

01:18:45.120 Well, they have become...

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01:18:59.960 Three issues, one answer.

01:19:01.480 Partied to it, part and parcel of it, and have become that machine that benefits from all of this.

01:19:08.040 And so they can't.

01:19:09.220 It would be self-defeating for them to now exercise skepticism or challenge.

01:19:13.380 And this, you know, I want to jump back to a question you asked earlier we didn't get to finish,

01:19:17.140 which was what are some of the positive things that I'm seeing in the Republican Party right now?

01:19:22.620 We see at a minimum there are dissenting voices within the Republican Party,

01:19:28.080 for example, on the issue of this proxy war against Russia.

01:19:30.580 There are not enough to be able to make a legislative change at this point.

01:19:35.400 I hope that changes.

01:19:36.740 But there are a growing number of Republicans who are saying no,

01:19:40.840 expressing a lot of the concerns that we are.

01:19:43.780 And from a Republican Party perspective, there's no...

01:19:47.400 I'm not aware of any punitive measures being taken against those members.

01:19:51.660 So even though they are not part of the establishment in the Republican Party,

01:19:56.480 there is that room for dissent.

01:20:00.880 There is, and I've experienced this myself,

01:20:02.520 there's that room for open conversation and dialogue.

01:20:05.440 Whether you agree or disagree, there's a growing movement of concern about, you know,

01:20:10.960 these wars and a movement for peace and a responsible foreign policy.

01:20:15.280 Whereas the Democratic Party has moved in the opposite direction where you are not allowed to ask questions.

01:20:21.660 You are not allowed to challenge their narrative or their position.

01:20:24.760 You are not allowed to hold a dissenting view because if you do,

01:20:29.680 then they will seek to destroy you and cancel you and smear you and take away your voice.

01:20:36.340 And it's really sad and unfortunate because there's nothing more undemocratic than that.

01:20:41.320 Right, right.

01:20:43.420 Well, look, I would love to continue talking to you on the YouTube platform.

01:20:48.600 But we're...

01:20:49.500 I know you have a hard out in about half an hour.

01:20:51.920 And I would have really liked to have talked to you some more about Trump.

01:20:55.000 But we should do this again.

01:20:56.340 We should do this again.

01:20:57.540 And we'll find a time that's appropriate and do it again.

01:21:00.540 Wonderful.

01:21:01.340 I would just...

01:21:02.680 I'd just ask you one final question on this...

01:21:05.880 In this episode.

01:21:07.100 Then for everyone watching and listening,

01:21:08.660 I'm going to continue talking to Tulsi Gabbard on the Daily Wire Plus platform.

01:21:13.820 I'm going to do a little bit more biographical interrogation, let's say.

01:21:17.040 And that'll be available for those of you who want to go over to the Daily Wire Plus side of the world, let's say.

01:21:24.000 But maybe we could close with this.

01:21:26.580 So what are your future plans at the moment?

01:21:30.560 Where do you see yourself going?

01:21:31.880 Because you're in an odd political position at the moment, to say the least.

01:21:34.780 You have this immense wealth of experience and reputation, hard-earned.

01:21:41.760 And you're in an idiosyncratic position.

01:21:46.560 And you're quite young as well, all things considered by political standards.

01:21:50.940 And so where do you foresee yourself going?

01:21:54.760 And where would you like to go in the next few years and maybe even longer than that?

01:22:00.940 The short answer is I don't exactly know specifically.

01:22:08.960 But what I do know is that I will continue to do what I've done throughout my life,

01:22:14.940 which is seek out those opportunities and places where I feel I can make the most positive impact and be of service.

01:22:23.040 Be of service to God.

01:22:24.160 Be of service to our country and the American people.

01:22:27.540 I always like talking to you Americans.

01:22:29.400 You're so good at that sort of thing, you know.

01:22:31.700 That whole Mr. Smith goes to Washington thing, which is, well, it's real, you know.

01:22:35.860 And I've seen that.

01:22:36.900 It is real.

01:22:37.680 It is real.

01:22:38.240 And I've seen that among Democrats and Republicans alike.

01:22:41.940 You know, there is, despite everything that divides people in the United States,

01:22:46.600 and despite, you know, all the possibility of corruption and all of that,

01:22:50.400 there is still this underlying belief in the goodness,

01:22:53.980 the essential goodness of the system.

01:22:55.340 And this real desire on behalf of people to be of genuine service and to put themselves on the line for it.

01:23:01.200 It's no joke to give up your life to become a congressman or congresswoman.

01:23:04.940 It's a very tough decision.

01:23:06.520 And we need leadership.

01:23:08.560 I think the thing, just to close out that point here is, there is promise in this system,

01:23:17.120 but the system is extremely dysfunctional and corrupt right now.

01:23:21.600 And so whether it's what I'm doing now and being able to speak the truth

01:23:25.340 and try to bring some common sense and reality and sanity to the insanity that we are going through in this country

01:23:32.340 that is threatening our constitutional rights, that is threatening our own democracy,

01:23:37.980 I will continue to seek ways to help lead that change to get us back to the kind of country 1.00

01:23:46.760 that our founders envisioned for us.

01:23:49.640 Well, that's a very good closing.

01:23:51.280 And so we will turn now to the Daily Wire Plus part of this conversation.

01:23:58.160 Thank you very much for talking to me today.

01:23:59.940 Thank you.

01:24:00.620 I look forward to part two.

01:24:03.500 Yeah, yeah, that'd be good.

01:24:04.660 And so for all of you watching and listening, thank you very much for your time and attention.

01:24:09.060 It's much appreciated.

01:24:10.180 And to the Daily Wire Plus people who are producing this, the film crew that's here in Detroit,

01:24:14.920 because that's where I am today, thank you for your help.

01:24:18.160 And onward and upward to the next part of the conversation.

01:24:21.700 Very good to meet you.

01:24:24.180 Hello, everyone.

01:24:25.060 I would encourage you to continue listening to my conversation with my guest on dailywireplus.com.

01:24:35.420 Did you know that the two leading causes of sensitive teeth are irritated gums and weak enamel?

01:24:40.780 Switch to Sensodyne Sensitivity Gum and Enamel.

01:24:43.700 With twice daily brushing, you can relieve sensitivity, help restore gum health, and re-harden enamel.

01:24:48.800 Three issues, one answer.

The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast - February 16, 2023

332. Crony Capitalism and Female Soldiers ｜ Tulsi Gabbard

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